E348 Stolen Meditation Journals and Fun, Fruity Pond Water
TOPICS: The Catskills crone, the murder of Julia Martha Thomas aka The Barnes Mystery
The Catskills Crone closeup from the Traveling Museum of the Paranormal & Occult.
The Catskills Crone from the Traveling Museum of the Paranormal & Occult.
Newspaper drawings from Kate Webster’s trail and execution.
Newspaper drawings from Kate Webster’s trail and execution.
Newspaper drawings from Kate Webster’s trail and execution.
Welcome to episode 348, where we're contemplating the smell of the bottom of a Zoloft bottle! First Em takes us to the Catskills (ATWWD retreat, anyone?) for the incredibly creepy story of the Catskills Crone. Then Christine covers an oldie but a wild case in the story of the Barnes Mystery aka the murder of Julia Martha Thomas. And stay tuned for our deep dive into the smells that define us, both as humans and as ghosts... and that's why we drink!
Transcript
[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: [sigh] Oh, I didn't mean for that to come out.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: You thought we were not recording yet? [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: I was like, just one more breath before we start. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You could have more breaths while we record, just so you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, thank God. Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Keep going.
Christine Schiefer: I forget how this works. Em, I'm like really upset, I'm gonna cry maybe, not really gonna cry, but I did... Can I just tell you why I drink? I know you haven't even gotten a word in.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Are you...
Christine Schiefer: But it happened about five minutes ago and I'm like so angry. Somebody... Leona's birthday party supplies just arrived. They're like the... I literally bought all these Hu... Very Hungry Caterpillar birthday supplies and they were at the front door in this huge box. I was like, "Finally, they're here. Her birthday's next week." Some man I see in the Ring doorbell walks up with a cigarette and a baseball cap on, fucking picks up...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The package and just puts it in his truck and drives away.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And Blaise like walks right out and he's like, "What the fuck?" The guy had to like unlock our gate. Like it wasn't... Sometimes packages get stolen if they're just kind of like tossed where like people can reach it.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: He just waltzed right up the stairs, right up to the porch, right in front of the Ring doorbell, just fucking picked up this massive package and waltzed right away. All her birthday supplies in it.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like hundreds of dollars of birthday supplies.
Em Schulz: That's...
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, that asshole is gonna open that box and be like, "All these Hungry Caterpillar napkins," congratu-fucking-lations.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They're gonna have the nerve... He's gonna have the nerve to say, "I don't need any of this," and then just throw it away.
Christine Schiefer: Put it in the trash. And I'm gonna be fucking pissed 'cause that was very expensive.
Em Schulz: There's nothing...
Christine Schiefer: And now I'm not gonna get it in time for her birthday and I'm freaking out! And I'm so mad. I'm so mad. What kind of an asshole sees a box, it says... It has a pink flamingo on it, it says, "Oriental Trading Party Supplies." Who the fuck do you think you are? What do you think is in there? An iPad? I'm gonna kill him.
Em Schulz: It sounds like someone who probably doesn't have kids to... Who doesn't know what Oriental Trading is.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He's gonna learn. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: He's gonna learn the hard way. 'Cause there's all sorts of fun stuff in there. I'm mad.
Em Schulz: You know, nothing makes my blood boil more than, I don't know what the right word is for them, but like, the package thieves, like...
Christine Schiefer: The audacity. As you just told me, I have the audacity as I started my audacity, they have the fucking audacity. Like, like fucking grow up. Uh...
Em Schulz: And also like, let's, let's acknowledge the fact that it also feels so fucking violating. Like...
Christine Schiefer: It's so violating. You're totally right. Especially when you watch them do it.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And you're like, "I can see you."
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's the, it's the not even giving a shit like, "I know I'm stealing from you." And like...
Christine Schiefer: "You can see me. I don't care."
Em Schulz: But also, I mean, it does... I mean, there's a huge difference between like, uh, an actual burglary or a, a theft in, inside your home.
Christine Schiefer: Like in... A home invasion. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But like, they're only one door away, you know, and it really, it gets... If...
Christine Schiefer: Right, true. They're on your property, they walk up to your door, they take your, your stuff...
Em Schulz: They're taking your shit without... It, it feels like... There's nothing that freaks me out more. Like I'll... I s... I have like the doorbell, the Ring doorbell app and like the Neighbors app and all that where you can watch...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: And I... Every t... Every fucking time I watched someone's package get stolen, it's not even my package, and I feel violated for them.
Christine Schiefer: It's so violating and like, there's nothing you can do. I mean, the last time this happened, somebody called the police and... 'Cause a neighbor saw it. And so that was delightful to come home and have the police on my porch.
Em Schulz: Oh, great.
Christine Schiefer: And they had stolen... What did they steal? It's so hilarious, what they stole. Oh, my body s-scrub. I was like, "Okay, you stole my body scrub from fucking Ulta." And then the time before that, they stole my, my new fucking, uh, meditation journal and I was like, "Yeah, you better fucking use it, asshole. Maybe you'll learn a thing or two."
Em Schulz: You know, I've actually... I've heard that a few, um, a few people are stealing Amazon packages now because they have like that affiliate program. And so they resell them on Amazon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for fuck's sake.
Em Schulz: So, I'm sorry, but he's making hundreds of dollars off your Hungry... Hungry Caterpillar.
Christine Schiefer: I'm really upset. Like I'm looking at what I ordered...
Em Schulz: I... I would be.
Christine Schiefer: The cutest shit. I ordered little stickers. I ordered little strawberry plates. I ordered like a big three-foot Hungry Caterpillar for Leona just to sit next to... I'm really mad now. I don't know what to do. I don't know...
Em Schulz: Can any of it like be like Amazon Prime to you in the next two days?
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I could express ord... I'll try. Yeah. Anyway...
Em Schulz: Can you call... Can you...
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry to be a bummer.
Em Schulz: No. I'm trying to problem-solve with you. Can we, can we call them and like say like, uh, like how much would it cost for a rush?
Christine Schiefer: I wonder... Yeah, I wonder if, um... Yeah, maybe I'll try that. That's a good idea, Em. I'm gonna send you, uh, the...
Em Schulz: Do you want me to call?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, obviously I'm not gonna call anyone. But...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, uh, I'm gonna send you a picture of the little apples that I ordered that are gonna go in the goodie bags.
Em Schulz: Oh, little apples.
Christine Schiefer: They're little felt apples. I mean, what an asshole. And they're these little tiny felt apples and they go inside the, um, the, uh, the little goodie bags...
Em Schulz: Let me see.
Christine Schiefer: With a little caterpillar bouncy ball...
Em Schulz: Ohh!
Christine Schiefer: And some stickers. I'm like so mad. Anyway, it's so dumb.
Em Schulz: I would be pissed. And I... No, I would... I...
Christine Schiefer: It's just like so infuriating.
Em Schulz: Honestly, I wouldn't even be... I mean, I'd be mad at first, but then when I like sat with it, I would just be really sad. So...
Christine Schiefer: I am... I think that's what it is. I... When I get... Yeah. I get mad when I get sad. So I think that's what it is. I'm like, really? Like people just...
Em Schulz: That's...
Christine Schiefer: And they unlocked the gate. Like it was... It's one thing if you just reach over and grab it, which like has happened, but like to walk all the way up the walkway, up the stairs, on the porch...
Em Schulz: It's so intentional.
Christine Schiefer: Like I could just whip open the door, you know? And I mean, obviously I didn't.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, okay, I'm sorry for getting all worked up. Um...
Em Schulz: No, that's... It's a very, very valid reason to, um...
Christine Schiefer: But I was so worked up that I realized how thirsty I was and I went and got a bunch of water, 'cause I think I was just like...
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
Christine Schiefer: So at least I'm following your orders. Um...
Em Schulz: Well, yeah, everyone, this is your, uh, reminder, weekly reminder to stay hydrated.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And, um, Christine, if you need help after we record, we can hunt the interwebs together and collect everything and get it shipped to you.
Christine Schiefer: Aww. We can look on Craigslist for free and... Like the free section, see if, um...
Em Schulz: Yeah, [chuckle] see if...
Christine Schiefer: They're just giving away like party supplies. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Did you at least get his face on the camera so you can like post?
Christine Schiefer: He just looks like a cranky old white man with a hat... Baseball cap. So it's really hard to see 'cause he has a hat on and he's smoking a cigarette, so it's... His face is kind of covered. Um...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So not really. But one time in LA, a package got stolen and the guy just looked directly into the camera and like did a little wave, and I was like, [laughter] that is next level like, cruel, like fuck you.
Em Schulz: It's so fucked. And you know what, one of the... I'm... This is, you know, knock on everything, so I don't wanna, you know, all of a sudden give myself a weird twist of fate. But, um...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Other than the... I know the roaches are like, they're not bad these days, but I know the roaches is like, uh, an obviously serious problem in my apartment building.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But other than that, like I pretty much have a great apartment build... Uh, apartment and like, I'm so lucky that like all the neighbors on our floor and like in our building, like I've never had to worry about packages being stolen, I've never had...
Christine Schiefer: That's really nice.
Em Schulz: And so I... Like there have been, this is not good, but there've been multiple times I've accidentally left my keys in my fucking door.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow.
Em Schulz: People, people have just knocked on the door and opened it up and been like, "You forgot these," and just like threw the keys into the apartment and closed the door. And it's only happened like two or three times.
Christine Schiefer: You gotta love that.
Em Schulz: But it's... I know that like, currently at least, my apartment is like a very safe place. And I torture myself by going on like the neighborhood apps and all that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Ignore those neighbors who have a shitty time. Just embrace your good time.
Em Schulz: But as, as someone who's like... It's not like a, you know, a currently very serious thing, but as someone who's flirting with the idea of moving one day...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Like I just torture myself because I'm like, "Oh, one day I'll have a standalone house and, you know, anyone could just steal anything." It, it freaks me out. It totally freaks me out, like the...
Christine Schiefer: That's what the... That's what all the technology's for, you think, and then you put it up and they just wave at it and walk away.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Ugh. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: It's only slightly infuriating. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sorry, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: No, I'm not, I'm not mad. I'm just, uh, disa-fucking-pointed.
Em Schulz: Just... I'm not... Oh. Woof. Yikes.
Christine Schiefer: Woof.
Em Schulz: Well...
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Anyway.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: My day. How are you?
Em Schulz: Um, I'm okay. I am currently on a new anti-anxiety medication...
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: And it's going okay, but the side effects are really messing with me. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which usually I've been a person who, um, anytime I start a new medication, I'm very lucky and have never really had any side effects. And so, this is one of the first times I'm having to deal with this. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It seems to be only anti-anxiety medication is the stuff that gives me side effect problems. But, um...
Christine Schiefer: It makes sense. I mean, they're very potent. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, the... I was having like a lot of nausea at the beginning of this week, but now I'm, uh... The thing that really freaked me out yesterday was that it actually gave me really bad heart palpitations and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. That's not good for you.
Em Schulz: And so I don't know if that's a side effect and it's gonna go away, and then I'll be fine, or is that like something that would become a daily issue, in which case...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like, I'd like to end this. Because it was like going...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you don't have room for that.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it was like fighting against the Propranolol, which usually keeps my heart rate slower.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: So it was beating out my Propranolol and I was ha... I had to take double the Propranolol just to calm down my heart. But... And it was just like a weird...
Christine Schiefer: That's like when I used to take Zoloft to... I mean, I take Zoloft now and it works great, but back... Like when I first started taking it, um, it made me like so drowsy and sleepy and brain foggy. And then my doctor was like, "Oh, well, that's why you take Wellbutrin, 'cause then it helps you... " [chuckle] I'm like, "Wait, so now we're just like... "
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: "Stacking, you know... " [chuckle] But it worked really well at the time. I mean, you know, sometimes you just need to tweak. But, um, yeah, I feel you, man. That is, uh, never fun.
Em Schulz: The, the brain fog is like really crazy. I m... I mean, I'm always like, I've had brain fog before, but this is wild. It's like, I've been having to like stop everything I'm doing for like 30 Mississippi seconds to figure out a word. Like I'm... It's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: So I just feel like I'm like... I don't know. I'm like all out of sorts.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that feels like what happens when you get like mom brain, is what they call it, when you like...
Em Schulz: Oh really?
Christine Schiefer: You're like, "Wow, I just like can't think of a word all of a sudden."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, yeah. That's not a fun feeling.
Em Schulz: Does that go away or do you still have it?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, mine went away pretty much. But apparently they actually have studied this as far as I know. Um, don't quote me on this, everyone, but I'm pretty sure they've, uh, done a study that prove that your brain matter after pregnancy, like your gra... Your brain matter literally changes like for permanently.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Like your brain changes forever. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And not necessarily in a bad way, but it like just changes your whole...
Em Schulz: But not in a good way. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't know. Maybe a good way. I have no idea. But it just apparently like changes your whole setup. I don't know. That's what I...
Em Schulz: I mean, everything else about you changes, so makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't, wouldn't be surprised. But...
Em Schulz: Huh.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway... Well...
Em Schulz: Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: I'm, uh, I'm glad you're safe and happy and I'm... I hope your keys are not in the door.
Em Schulz: My keys are not in the door. That happened...
Christine Schiefer: Not to give you like an additional anxiety. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That happened enough times that, um, we don't do that anymore. Um... [laughter] Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Good. Good.
Em Schulz: So let's, let's, let's begin. Shall we begin?
Christine Schiefer: Let's begin.
Em Schulz: Alright. So I have a short story for you today, but, um...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: It's a nice little urban, you know, insert lore here. So Blaise can laugh at how often I say lore.
Christine Schiefer: Ha-ha. Legend?
Em Schulz: Um, urban legend. Yeah. I don't know. I actually don't know if it's an urban legend. You tell me at the end of this. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm sure I'll know. Not.
Em Schulz: This is the story of The Catskills Crone.
Christine Schiefer: Catskills Crone sounds like an urban legend, but what do I know?
Em Schulz: Ha... Have you ever been to the Catskills?
Christine Schiefer: I have not. Have you?
Em Schulz: No, but I've always wanted to.
Christine Schiefer: I have too, weirdly. I barely know anything about them. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: It sounds so... It sounds like shi-shi, but a lodge, but it's the mountains, but it's...
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like... Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I know...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like a wonderful like escape, you know?
Em Schulz: I know a lot of older Jewish, uh, families go there.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So, I feel like... It's a good...
Christine Schiefer: That's like where they have the, uh... And Ms. Maisel.
Em Schulz: Yes. It's a good time. It's a good time.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I watched that one and was like, "Why don't I get to do that? That looks fun." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe we, we can have a retreat there, Em.
Em Schulz: Anytime you say retreat, I'm usually for it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I love that we just say that word sometimes, because we know the other person will go, "Yes."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. But the second you say retreat...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes I just want you to agree with me. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I'm more inclined to say immedia... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: So here's the thing, there... The story was told almost from like a first person perspective. So we don't know the name of one of these people. Would you like to come up with a name, Christine, and just kind of...
Christine Schiefer: Um...
Em Schulz: Let's work with that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure. Let's go with, um, Marcel.
Em Schulz: Okay. So, the story takes place in 2016, and there's a guy, Danny, and there's his friend Marcel.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, if you just changed his name to Danny, I'm going to kill you.
Em Schulz: Look...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: I thought you changed it. I was like, are you fucking kidding me right now? [laughter]
Em Schulz: No. The source I read it from, I never once got the other person's name and I was like, "Okay, well, I guess I'm just gonna keep saying his friend for the entire thing."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I like it. Danny and Marcel.
Em Schulz: Danny And Marcel. So they're in the Catskills, which is, for people who don't know, it's a mountain range in, uh, New York, um, and it includes the Catskills State Park and it's like... It's I think like a million acres. I think it's like 700,000 acres.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, jeez.
Em Schulz: It's a big place. So we're gonna have a long retreat there. And the Catskills are... It's an area that has a lot of caves and like, you'll love this, countless abandoned mines...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: From when it was a busy mining town.
Christine Schiefer: Retreat, retreat, retreat. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So I'll take care of the resort and you go into the mining caves.
Christine Schiefer: I'll go into a mine.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That'll be fun.
Em Schulz: Um, and then the Catskills are not just like a popular summer destination, but it has a long history of hauntings and strange phenomenon. And the... There's... The local lore says that there's like haunted locations. There's, uh, like sacrificial, cultish spaces where people have done rituals.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, there's stories of witches and cryptids. So I'm probably... I could probably do a whole episode on the Catskills, but... Oh, fun fact, Washington Irving, who is the author of Sleepy Hollow...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: He was inspired by the Catskills. Uh, he said that they bewitched him as a boy.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Oooh.
Christine Schiefer: I like that. That makes me wanna go more.
Em Schulz: Well, so that's, that's the scene I've set for you.
Christine Schiefer: Love it.
Em Schulz: And now enter Danny and Marcel. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: So they're hiking and they went to check out a cave that was off-trail, and in this cave, there was evidence of a fire that, like a recent fire, so they knew someone had...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: Exactly. That's... Like, that's what I would've said.
Christine Schiefer: Bingo bango. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And so, um, they go to this cave, they see that there's recently a fire, so they know somebody has been there not too long ago. Um, and yet, they still go in. I feel like this is about to be a story of like mishaps of like, why... Like you had evidence to not do this and then you did it. So...
Christine Schiefer: Like, what not to do in this situation. This is like me going, "We should keep checking it out," and you're like, "Absolutely not. We're going back to the resort."
Em Schulz: Right. Right. That's... That happens quite a lot in this story, it seems.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds familiar.
Em Schulz: And so, uh, Em and Christine, I mean, Danny and Marcel...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They go looking around anyway, even though it's clear someone's been there. And near one of the cave walls, they find this piece of wood that has been like whittled and carved into the shape of a human.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, creepy.
Em Schulz: You're on the right track. So, this carving had... Uh, like, was enough of a human that it had eyes whittled into it, and each of the eyes had three nails driven into them.
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: And the body was very old-looking, the nails were very rusty. But was... What was brand new was a rope that had been fitted as a noose around the doll's neck.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: So Danny said they... "Hey, this reminds me of like some sacrifice shit. Like, this looks like a part of a ritual or something."
Christine Schiefer: "Hey, you know what this reminds me of?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Nothing good. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Satanists. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "This feels like part of a ritual and we... I want nothing to do with this."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: So insert me thinking again, why would you do this? Marcel goes, "I don't care that you want nothing to do with this. I wanna bring it home."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm Marcel in this scenario. Got it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So pretty much right away, things go funky.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Um, the friend starts... Oh, not the friend, sorry. Marcel starts having...
Christine Schiefer: I have a name.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I have... I have eyes and a heart, um...
Christine Schiefer: And three nails in them, each.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Marc... Marcel starts having trouble sleeping and...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: He starts having s... He starts having trouble sleeping because there's a mysterious banging that keeps waking him up.
Christine Schiefer: Huh.
Em Schulz: And whenever he would wake up from this banging, there would be a very intense smell of pond water.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's very s-strange.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Which is like, I'm such a dumbass because all my brain can relate to is like, oh, chlorine. [laughter] Which is like...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] You're like, "We had a pond out back. It had a waterfall and some floaties."
Em Schulz: There's, tiles surrounds it. It was lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Tiles. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so pond water. If you could smell pond water, you know what's going on. I apparently...
Christine Schiefer: That's a murky, murky smell.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I guess... Yeah. Definitely not chlorine.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Um, not only that, but Marcel's dog refused to get near this carving and started peeing in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, honey, that's, that's sad. Leave the dog out of it.
Em Schulz: That's awful. So, soon Marcel is waking up and feeling watched, and then the doll starts moving by itself at night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: Marcel starts finding it in new spots each morning and smelling pond water at the same time. So when he started smelling pond water, he knew that that meant the doll has moved.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. [chuckle] It's very Pavlovian.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like leaving, uh, a scent trail. So...
Christine Schiefer: You could never like go back to any sort of body of water without being like, [gasp], you know...
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: You could only be in pools from now on.
Em Schulz: If you got to have a smell associated with every movement you make...
Christine Schiefer: Lemon...
Em Schulz: What would it be?
Christine Schiefer: Citrus. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh. I walked right into that, didn't I?
Christine Schiefer: What about you? Actually, I would say actually in reality, like a cedar, like a nice cedar smell, you know?
Em Schulz: Hmm. Is that your favorite smell?
Christine Schiefer: I love that smell. Like kind of... And it's like a cedar, pine, like winter-y smell.
Em Schulz: Uuh. I know what you're talking about.
Christine Schiefer: Like a Christmas tree.
Em Schulz: Like the green candles? The green candles? Uhh.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, the green spruce.
Em Schulz: Ohh. Stop it. Stop it.
Christine Schiefer: I'm a spruce. What about you? [laughter]
Em Schulz: You shut up right now. Um...
Christine Schiefer: You can have lemon.
Em Schulz: No, no, I'm fine.
Christine Schiefer: No? Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um... I don't know, my, like... You know what, this... I've... Well, it's... Now I'm just listing my favorite smells. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I think that's what we're both doing, so...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It's okay. It's okay.
Em Schulz: Well, it wouldn't... It would not have any attachment to me though. Like, no, no smell... Like what do you...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, like what would my... My like signature...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like, what would people know me as, smell-wise?
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: Listeners, weigh in. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Listeners, [laughter] yeah, what do you think Em smells like? I guess...
Em Schulz: What do you think I smell like?
Christine Schiefer: They wouldn't really know. This isn't Smell-O-Vision, thank God, 'cause I would probably just be sweaty. Um...
Em Schulz: I just always smell like deodorant. Like I just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, me too. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I mean, if I'm getting to like pick a smell, like I, I'm not gonna turn down the smell of like brownies in the oven, you know, or like...
Christine Schiefer: Ahh. See, I'm not a food smell type of person 'cause then I'm like, but now I want the food.
Em Schulz: I'm the...
Christine Schiefer: Like if the food's not there, then I get disappointed.
Em Schulz: I'm the food version... I'm not the candle version of food, but I am the food version of food.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Oh, got it. Okay. So you wouldn't be...
Em Schulz: Like...
Christine Schiefer: Just like a, a fake smell of brownies.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be like, "No, now there's literally brownies here."
Em Schulz: No, I don't...
Christine Schiefer: I love that.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. I, I would... If I want it... I wanna confuse you and make you fucking think there's brownies in the oven and then... And then you're like...
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's just cruel.
Em Schulz: Well, I'd be a poltergeist, probably, so...
Christine Schiefer: So you'd actually make the brownies for me?
Em Schulz: No. I would just...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Wanna torture you. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you're just being cruel, uh, uh, intentionally.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Oh, oh, oh, okay. I should have known.
Em Schulz: You know what... You know what's a good smell though, Christine? You know what's a great...
Christine Schiefer: What's that? Tell me.
Em Schulz: I have this candle.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Uh. I have this candle.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, say more.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's grapefruit.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Ooh. It's grapefruit, and, uh... Oh, what is it? Oh, what is it? Oh, lavender and, bergamot. Oh. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Where did you get that? I want it.
Em Schulz: It's divine. Oh, it's divine.
Christine Schiefer: Is it at Target?
Em Schulz: It is at Target. Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I gotta get that 'cause I, I love my Target. I got a bu... Ca... Candle burning right now. My favorite Target candle is my cinnamon pumpkin, uh, muffin candle. Oh, man.
Em Schulz: Mmm. Here's...
Christine Schiefer: That's the best Halloween candle.
Em Schulz: Here's a question for you when it comes to fall.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Are you an apple scent or a pumpkin scent?
Christine Schiefer: I think I'm more of an apple...
Em Schulz: I'm, I'm an apple. I'm an apple.
Christine Schiefer: You too. I feel like we had this conversation before...
Em Schulz: I don't care if...
Christine Schiefer: And we both agreed for once.
Em Schulz: I've never cared for pumpkin. Not... I mean that...
Christine Schiefer: Not even...
Em Schulz: That one should keep its ears shut as I say this, but, um, the little one behind me. But I don't care...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I'm like, "Who's behind me?" [laughter] Okay. Uh...
Em Schulz: The pumpkin sitting next to me. No, I don't, I don't like pumpkin snacks. I don't like pumpkin smells. I don't like pumpkins. Carving pumpkins? I'd rather die, like... [laughter] I'm just...
Christine Schiefer: It's not dramatic at all.
Em Schulz: Pumpkins are just... We're not buddies.
Christine Schiefer: I, I mean, I'm with you. I l... I do like it. I'm not gonna lie. I do. And I like my pumpkin candle. But like, if I were to have to choose, I think I'd go the apple route, for sure, or just like this...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The, this wood smells, you know?
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I just... Listen, I love a... I love a, uh... Sorry. Or...
Em Schulz: You know what I... Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Oriental Trading just emailed me that they're going to refund me all the money and re-ship everything.
Em Schulz: Oh shit! [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's so nice. I emailed them earlier and I just saw it come into my inbox. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Ask them if they are like team apple or team pumpkin. They'll know what it means. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: This poor person is like, "Uh, that's not in my manual." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Ahh. Okay. Anyway... Wow, tangent time. Okay. Where were we? Oh, the smell of pond water. Jesus. Okay, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. [chuckle] The most delightful smell to be associated with.
Em Schulz: Right, right, right. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what do you think Eva would s... What, what's Eva's signature smell? Like what do you think would be like a good fit, for Eva, since she can't be here...
Em Schulz: That's a fun question.
Christine Schiefer: To defend herself, even though she's listening?
Em Schulz: Ohh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Hmm.
Em Schulz: I feel like by her aesthetic, I would expect it to be some sort of incense. Like, I feel like she...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Her house gives like calming...
Christine Schiefer: Like a warm like... Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like a, like a linen candle, like a, something...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice. To me, it's like a lime... Like maybe I'm thinking margaritas, like kind of like a...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like a little eccentric, like a little bit of like something sweet.
Em Schulz: See, I think maybe I'm associating calming things with Eva because she saves our ass all the time. So I...
Christine Schiefer: That, that's probably true too. I, I'm like just associating...
Em Schulz: So I'm just like, she smells like a, like a warm towel, like, you know...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just thinking... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She smells like Paxil. Oh wait. [laughter]
Em Schulz: She smells like Zoloft, the, uh, the bottom of a Zoloft bottle. Um... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Which by the way is my least favorite smell, so I hope not. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, no, I could see why you would think like a, like a citrus, like a lime. I could see that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's what I get, like kind of a lime, like tangerine, something like fun and fruity, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Just like she is. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Sorry, Eva. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, that's a good thing. I swear.
Em Schulz: Yeah. You don't smell like pond water, so relax, you know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So calm down. Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She said, "I'll, I'll take it," she says. Okay. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: "Fun and fruity pond water," she says. Okay. That could be it.
Em Schulz: Blegh. [chuckle] Okay. So, um, let's see. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Pond water... Oh, okay. So every time he's smelling pond water, he's associating it with the doll moving. He's waking up every day and the doll's in a different location in his house.
Christine Schiefer: Don't like it. Don't like it.
Em Schulz: Soon he's waking up and he's feeling watched. And one night at 3:00 AM, there's a knock on the door. And weirdly, the motion sensors out front did not go off.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Which super-duper freaks me out 'cause now there's something just in the shadows.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, and also a knock that the... That loud that will wake you up makes me feel like it's intentional and needs you to wake up. But now it's still working.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It knows what it's doing.
Em Schulz: So the friend goes to... Not the friend. Fuck. Marcel goes to check.
Christine Schiefer: You do a find and replace.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I know. So Marcel goes to check and opens the door, but no one is there.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: But still he feels like he's just made a huge mistake...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: As if he has invited something in.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's been banging on the walls and now he's letting it in.
Em Schulz: He went around and made sure that his house was locked, but freaked out. He calls Danny who suggested that, uh, you know, "Hey, let's go out for a little bit and, you know, take a drive or something to distract ourselves." When they get back to the house, everything feels a little calmer. Marcel goes to bed, but wakes up at 10:00 AM to his dog barking.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Um, his dog's barking, he gets up to see what's going on, and he realizes that in the hall, there are several muddy footprints on the floor.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Worst fucking nightmare.
Em Schulz: Bare footprints too.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Now, we're not talking bear...
Em Schulz: That freaks me out...
Christine Schiefer: Like the animal. We're talking...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: B-A-R-E. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Can you imagine? That's its own adventure of like...
Christine Schiefer: They're... That they're both nightmares, to be clear. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They're both really scary.
Em Schulz: We both... [chuckle] Yeah. Especially like, where did the bear go? Was it like, uh, in the bathroom, like or... Where...
Christine Schiefer: I know. But my dumbass would be like, "What, what is that, a dog print?" Like I wouldn't even know it was a bear. [laughter] So I'm like such an idiot. But you're talking bare feet, like barefoot.
Em Schulz: Bare feet, bare feet.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, got it, got it.
Em Schulz: Bare feet. Not like, "Oh, we s... There's a grizzly in this house."
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um... So...
Christine Schiefer: "And I think he ate my dog, I'm not positive." [laughter]
Em Schulz: If... Honestly, if you survived a bear walking through your house and you just slept through that, you'd be like, "Either that was the dumbest bear or I'm the luckiest person." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or I'm like the... Yeah, and your dog's like, "What the fuck is wrong with you?" [laughter] Oh, this poor dog. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. No, bare feet. So they see muddy bare feet, uh, all over th, the floor. Which is so much freakier for some reason, 'cause if it's boots, you can assume, "Oh, someone broke in." But if it's bare feet, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Bare feet is, yeah, bad.
Em Schulz: Did someone take their fucking shoes off to be clean and they were still covered in mud? Like, what's this about?
Christine Schiefer: Gross. Covered in like pond water, probably.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah, like swampy muddy... Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like walking out of a pond. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Yeah, bare feet is so much more intimate and personal.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's bad.
Em Schulz: So when he sees this, of course he smells pond water again.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And he knew that the doll must have moved on its own. So when investigating his house, he now hears heavy breathing around him, and he compared it to his grandpa who had a tracheotomy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter] Um, what a...
Em Schulz: Um, which like...
Christine Schiefer: What a pull. Who would do that.
Em Schulz: What a s... What a specific...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Not like...
Em Schulz: He could have just said heavy breathing.
Christine Schiefer: Not many people can relate to. [laughter]
Em Schulz: He could have just said heavy breathing. But, um, anyway, so he hears heavy breathing, freaks out, grabs the dog, heads for Danny's house. Danny lets them stay for a while and freaked out. While they're sleeping, Danny is now online trying to do some like recon about what this could be.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Danny finds out through... Literally, this has been 2016, so very, uh, apropos. He finds out on the Paranormal subReddit...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Um, he makes a throwaway account called wiggedhikerthrway, which like, like wigged out. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I was like, "Wow, is that one of his hobbies?" Okay, got it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So he makes a post describing what's going on and states that his friend is thinking of burning this carving to end the issue.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: He was like, "What should I do? Should we actually burn this thing?" Pretty much everyone immediately is like, "Do not burn that. That's a terrible idea. Don't do that."
Christine Schiefer: Don't do that.
Em Schulz: Uh, but they also couldn't come up with any alternatives. Some people were saying to throw it into moving water. Some were saying to just assertively tell this entity to s... To stop and go away. Um, some people were giving contact information for paranormal experts.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, there was a whole bunch. But a, a lot of people also didn't even believe the story, and some actually thought that Marcel deserved it for taking the doll.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Okay. I mean, it's too late for that, but thanks a lot.
Em Schulz: It's like, thanks for your non-help. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Your input. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So there was a lot of people who had different opinions about what to do, but mostly people said that, You should take it back to where you found it, apologize, and then leave an offering and cleanse your own house.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Which, that's fair advice.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I could do that.
Em Schulz: I'd start there. And... However, a few days later, Danny comes back on the subReddit to post an update, and the update says, "Sorry, I haven't posted. Things got worse yesterday night. So we sent the statue to a guy in the comments today." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Zak... It was called... [laughter] Not... It's just called BakZagans was the username. [laughter] We don't know who...
Em Schulz: Throwaway.
Christine Schiefer: Throwaway. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, "So far so good. Thanks to everyone who actually tried to help and didn't just call us a couple of fucking idiots." Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: That's... Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, so the guy in the comments, when I read that, I was like, "Um, did this guy fucking ask for it? How'd you have his address? What's going on?" But this guy in the comments, his name was Greg Newkirk, and he left his contact information for Danny about having the doll sent to him.
Christine Schiefer: Wait a second. Greg Newkirk, we were just talking to Roz...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: About Greg and Dana. Oh, okay, okay.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: You know this already. Okay.
Em Schulz: Though I, I was about... In my very next...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: In my...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I have a tab open with their names so I don't forget. So I've been like looking at it every day like, "Oh, I gotta look them up." 'Cause apparently they live in Cincinnati.
Em Schulz: Well... My very next bullet is Greg and Dana Newkirk, they co-curate The Traveling Museum of the Paranormal and Occult in Cincinnati, Ohio, and in Kentucky. So... Which...
Christine Schiefer: Yay! See, like, I didn't know that and I'm like, How did I not know that? I gotta reach out to them.
Em Schulz: They also are consultants as paranormal experts for the TV show, Finding Bigfoot. So...
Christine Schiefer: A-ha.
Em Schulz: And the next thing I was gonna say is that we have just been mutual-friended with them.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And, uh, so, anyway, that was... It was gonna be an opening for you to talk about it if you wanted to. So that worked out very perfectly, that you...
Christine Schiefer: I love that. Sorry I burst in with, with...
Em Schulz: Well, you've never done that before.
Christine Schiefer: "Well, I know the name Greg." [laughter] Um...
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'm excited to, uh, to hit... 'Cause they did... They also, I think, helped produce Hellier, um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they're... I think they've been on Astonishing Legends. I don't know. I feel like I, I definitely know of them. I just had no idea they were local. So now I can really, you know, be a, be a pest.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Especially because one of their friends told us that we could contact them, so... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I got the go ahead. I have a permission slip from Roz. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly. So, um, anyway, it was a perfect timing that I did these notes. So if you were looking for a sign to reach out...
Christine Schiefer: Hilarious.
Em Schulz: This is, this is your sign.
Christine Schiefer: Actually, I love that, Em. Yeah, I'm going to. I'm gonna keep this tab open...
Em Schulz: I was reading...
Christine Schiefer: Reach out later.
Em Schulz: I was reading my notes and I was like, "Get the fuck outta here." And so...
Christine Schiefer: That is so weird. That is weird, the timing.
Em Schulz: I'm glad you picked up on it, otherwise, I, I was gonna be like, "Oh, I don't know if I should say anything." [laughter] Okay, I'm glad you... I...
Christine Schiefer: Nevermind.
Em Schulz: I'm glad you picked up on it. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Greg was the guy who commented on...
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
Em Schulz: Danny's subReddit and said like, "Hey, if you need help with this carving or this doll, you can send it my way." Which means maybe we could see this doll. You know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Wait a second. [laughter] We... I'm... That means I'm very close to that doll right now, by the way.
Em Schulz: You're only like two degrees of separation from this doll.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh. I'm like 10 miles away maybe. Yikes.
Em Schulz: That's... Look up the Traveling Museum of the Paranormal and Occult and you'll see, see how far away it is from you.
Christine Schiefer: The Traveling Museum of the what? Paranormal and Occult?
Em Schulz: Paranormal and Occult.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Visit. Where to visit? Events. Uh... Oh my God. [laughter] It's in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. Hold on. [laughter] Um, let me see, from my house, that would be... [laughter] Just about six miles.
Em Schulz: Great. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Super. So it's...
Em Schulz: Now you know what you're doing after this.
Christine Schiefer: 15-minute drive, 15-minute drive there. Um, not too bad. I'm gonna become a museum member, is one of the tabs on here. Anyway...
Em Schulz: Oh, you have to.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I have to. Hello. Like when you visit, we're gonna have some activities to do.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So... Okay. They were, uh... The... They reached out to Danny, and Danny wrote back to Greg, and Greg said that Marcel should definitely put the figure back where they found it and apologize. Um, so Danny and Marcel agree. And Danny goes over to Marcel's house so they can... Or Danny and Marcel both go back to Marcel's house, 'cause remember, he ran away.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: The two of them go back to Marcel's house to grab the doll so they can start this going back to the cave and putting it away. But the dog won't go inside and the doll is sitting in the middle of the hall.
Christine Schiefer: Uhh. Ohh.
Em Schulz: And next to the doll is a massive crack in the drywall as if the figure had been thrown and crashed into the wall.
Christine Schiefer: Euuhh. Now, he has... Like a fucking deposit is gone too. This sucks.
Em Schulz: [laughter] They grabbed the doll, they apologized that, for even messing with it. And they were originally gonna return it back to the cave, but they, like they said it as they were apologizing, like, "Okay, now let's go back to the cave and, you know, we're gonna put you back."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they both immediately got this sense of dread that that was the absolute wrong thing to do...
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: To never go back to the cave. So outside of the house, the dog starts freaking out.
Christine Schiefer: Poor baby.
Em Schulz: Um, they get up and in the living room, they see an old, soaking wet, naked woman...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: With glowing eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, fuck. What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Danny and the friend race out of the house, and they realized that they forgot the fucking doll again. So they have to go...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, these people.
Em Schulz: So they realized they have to go back inside the house. Uh, and after a few... Like after a few minutes, they like get the courage to go back in there and the woman's gone.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: They apo...
Christine Schiefer: That's good, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They apologized to the figure again, put it in a pillowcase, and then bring it, um... Instead of bringing it to the cave, they just send it directly to Greg. They're like, "We don't even wanna go into the woods with this thing."
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Did he get like a pillowcase with a stamp on it, like...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "Here"?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They just like, they like spun it really fast so it all twisted up by itself...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, there you go. Just tied a knot and toss it in the mailbox.
Em Schulz: So because of this old woman, that is where the doll officially gets its name, "The Crone".
Christine Schiefer: Lovely.
Em Schulz: So when, um, when this doll got to Greg and Dana, they put her in their office and by that night, they start hearing sounds in that room.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: They... They hear something and go check on it and find that one of their figures of Jesus ripped off of its own crucifix and was thrown across the room.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my... I was gonna say, "Oh my Christ." [laughter] Uh, that seems a little too on the nose. Wowza.
Em Schulz: And like ripped off so hard that one of the arms stayed on the crucifix. So now Jesus is armless.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my... Jesus.
Em Schulz: Christ.
Christine Schiefer: Again. [chuckle] Jesus Christ. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Um, Greg soon also starts having stomach issues that are so painful that he considers going to the ER.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Um, which, I guess that never happened but they, they thought about going. And they put up a motion sensor camera in the office to keep an eye on the Crone, on the, the doll, and eventually they catch it slightly moving on its own.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm-mm.
Em Schulz: At one point, they're even livestreaming video of the Crone so other people can like watch it at night.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, that is...
Em Schulz: And one...
Christine Schiefer: Totally my kind of like lo-fi background music, and then just like watching this Crone figure on a livestream. I need to do that now to calm down.
Em Schulz: You know, they said... I don't know if they still do it, but at one point the Queen Mary had a 24/7 surveillance camera in the pool for people...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Uh, to like see, like...
Christine Schiefer: More places need to do that...
Em Schulz: I think so. I mean...
Christine Schiefer: For my entertainment.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Zak Bagans has it like in every inch of his fucking museum. It's so smart...
Christine Schiefer: Right. It is.
Em Schulz: Just to have footage and just have someone constantly checking to see.
Christine Schiefer: And then somebody... It's like crowdsourcing. Like somebody will notice it even if...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You're not watching.
Em Schulz: We... That's... That's a very good idea, just to have something livestreaming non-stop.
Christine Schiefer: Why not?
Em Schulz: So one viewer of this stream told Greg that she ended up having a nightmare later of a woman saying that Greg swallowed nails while he was sleeping...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And she... And this woman put the nails in his mouth.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So I said, "What's wrong... What could possibly go wrong with a livestream?" Here I am getting the answer.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so that made Greg think back to his stabbing stomach pains of like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: "What if I symbolically swallowed nails?" Also remember, nails were in the eyes of the doll.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So it's almost like they're becoming one or something. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: And so he wondered if the Crone had something to do with, with all this.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: Shortly after that, they begin to smell intense pond water and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Wet footprints start appearing in their home and on top of their furniture, which like...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Eww!
Em Schulz: That feels poltergeist-y 'cause I'm like, not even an alive human is usually walking on top of your furniture.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Ugh.
Em Schulz: Um, this is a quote from Greg, "Haunted objects like misbehaving children tend to respond and retaliate to the attention given to them during tantrums. But our usual routine of ignoring the bad behavior was not working." Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: So I guess that... I guess that was their original plan of like, "Oh, you can send this thing to us and we're gonna ignore whatever happens until it goes away... "
Christine Schiefer: Until it calms down.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Now it's just escalating.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So Greg now tells the doll, uh, "If we'd left you with the hikers, you would have found your way into a fire pit or a garbage can. If you found your way to a priest, you'd be bound and buried or worse, locked on a dusty shelf for years. We're happy for you to live here, but only if you respect the situation. If you've got unfinished business, we'll help you put it to bed. But if you don't treat us respectfully, you're going in the box." So...
Christine Schiefer: Now that's called gentle parenting.
Em Schulz: It feels like gentle parenting. It's also a reminder of...
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "You know what, I'm gonna set a boundary." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. "I'm setting a lot of boundaries. And also you need to be grateful because we're being nice." Um... [laughter] Suddenly, they hear from another room, huge amounts of water pouring down as if a pipe had just burst.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: They ran to the sound and then the sound stopped out of nowhere, as soon as they got to where they thought they heard it coming. Then they heard a thud, and the Crone itself rolled off of a table by, on her own.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: She fell under a TV. So when Greg bent down to grab the doll, this was like all intentional for the doll to, to roll off the table and under the TV.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: 'Cause then he goes and bends down and the TV on its own starts falling forward as if to land on him and kill him.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: Luckily, Dana catches it before it hit Greg. But the lights start flickering and the couple hears three big knocks on the walls, and Greg and Dana are officially fed up. They put the doll into a secure box, which is they... You know, they're following through on their boundaries.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly right.
Em Schulz: And it's one of the very few items in their collection that almost all the time stays locked up. And it's also...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: One of the only items in their museum that visitors cannot handle, which means you can handle a lot of stuff over there if you wanted to.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I hear it. I hear it. I'm excited.
Em Schulz: When visitors do see the Crone at the museum, they often recoil from her, smell pond water and feel their eyes burning. So...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: You've... In like 15 minutes, you're gonna know for sure how you feel about this when you drive over.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'll let you know after the break. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Elevator music. No. Um... [laughter] So, Greg, Dana and countless psychics have, uh, different ideas as to the origin and purpose of the Crone. Um, some say that it's an ancient Babylonian spirit. Others think that it could be a protective spirit meant to guard a ritual site. It could be a vengeful entity involved in a curse.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, in one article, Greg wrote that they don't know the intention behind the Crone, therefore they may never understand it. And that is The Catskills Crone.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm. That one was creepy, Em. I... Blegh. The bare wet footprints on the furniture, oh my Lord.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Eugh.
Em Schulz: It... Um... I, uh... It was a quickie, but it was a goodie.
Christine Schiefer: Goosecam city. It was. Ooh. Ooh. I still have like goosecam on my neck.
Em Schulz: Oohh.
Christine Schiefer: That is... Yeah. That's an interesting one. Um...
Em Schulz: Um... Yes?
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. I don't know. I was just gonna say like, don't take stuff out of... Like I'm always the one who's tempted to do that. Don't take stuff out of like places you find them. Like, you know, like this.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Just like don't, guys. Just don't do it.
Em Schulz: I feel like if I saw something burnt into a shard and then had nails in its eyes, I'd be like, "That one's not for me."
Christine Schiefer: I know, but like knowing me, I'd be like, "But I wanna take it home," and you'd be like...
Em Schulz: No, you'd fucking think it's cute and like get emotionally attached to it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it.
Em Schulz: You'd be like, "I can save him. He needs a home."
Christine Schiefer: I'm like, "He looks sad."
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "He looks so sad with those nails in his eyes. I wanna take him home." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh. Um, well.. [laughter] I don't... I got nothing on that one, Christine. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I've b-been weighing in my head whether to tell this part or not, but, um, I guess I'll just put him on blast.
Em Schulz: Tell me.
Christine Schiefer: My grandfather, uh, once...
Em Schulz: Here we go. Here we go.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] My mom was going, I forget where she was going, to some b... Uh, town. It was either in Portugal or... I think it was in Portugal. And my grandpa was like, "Before you go, can you do me a favor while you're there?" And my mom was like, "Sure." And he literally gave her, this is not a joke, a bone.
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: And he said, "Can you put this back in this certain basilica?"
Em Schulz: Uh!
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And so my mom had to go to this specific basilica, because my grandfather had stolen a finger bone from a nun.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And this is like decades ago...
Em Schulz: That's a... Okay. Runs in the family. Am I right?
Christine Schiefer: I know. [chuckle] I know. And my mom was like, "Nana, I had to go and find this place and make some excuse to be taken down to the catacombs." [laughter] I was like, "Holy shit. What?"
Em Schulz: Oh, like... By the way, how on... I can't even imagine if your mom did it smoothly or just directly said, "My father stole a finger from a nun, so here."
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, she probably did it that way. I wouldn't blame her either. Like what...
Em Schulz: Like what...
Christine Schiefer: He didn't say, "Lie for me."
Em Schulz: Mission impossible way do you get down into the catacombs?
Christine Schiefer: To be fair, she has done that quite often. We'll be somewhere and she's like, "You just have to look like you know what you're doing." All this is a legend. It's not real. And I'm not gonna get arrested. So don't try. But basically we'll go to somewhere and she'll be like... There's... I'm like, "There's a rope or a sign." She's like, "I don't care," and she'll just like walk past it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like you just have to... Like the only thing stopping most people is social anxiety.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right.
Em Schulz: Like it's the fear of being told... Like it's the fear of being caught and being told you have to leave.
Christine Schiefer: And being in that like shame moment. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you don't have shame, you can get away with a whole lot.
Christine Schiefer: That's actually what it is. I think I have so much shame and my mom has like zero. And so when I'm with her I'm like, "Whatever."
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "We'll do what you say." And, um, yeah, so we've gone into a lot of catacombs. And sometimes they literally just have the skeletons on display and you're like, "Okay." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: So... Yeah. So anyway, my grandfather took a, a finger bone, and then I guess like decades later he was like, "I just don't think that was a good idea." And everyone was like, "Yeah, no shit."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like what was going on? Was he having things follow him or something?
Christine Schiefer: You know, I don't know. I think my mom just h... Uh, I think my mom said he just was getting older and was like, "Hmm, I'm starting to weigh my like pros and cons of my actions in life."
Em Schulz: Oh, like, like, "Am I going to hell or not?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, "Maybe this is not it," you know?
Em Schulz: 'Cause he must... Something must have happened or he must have always felt a little guilty. 'Cause if I stole something decades ago...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I wouldn't even remember it to...
Christine Schiefer: You wouldn't know where it was. Yeah. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. So something must have been happening for him to... For it to stay on his mind, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I wonder. I'm gonna ask her for more. 'Cause knowing her, she just like forgot to tell me that like also a poltergeist was happening at the same time. Um...
Em Schulz: Also the power move of like taking a finger, like it's not like, "Oh, you were digging around in like a local park and accidentally found something." Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like you just...
Em Schulz: Did he rip it off of a hand? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was just sitting out like as a display. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. That's like... Like does he go to museums and steal fossils? Like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, probably. I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: That's, that's bananas.
Christine Schiefer: I am not putting any dinosaur bones back for him 'cause I'm not about to get in trouble. Um...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like, you can deal with the consequences, sir.
Em Schulz: [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Em, I have a tale for you today. This is a murder called "The murder of Julia Martha Thomas", also known as The Barnes Mystery. And, uh, this, as yours was a shorty and a goodie, this one is an oldie but a goodie.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, this takes place in the late 1800s, late 19th century. Uh, it is about a woman named Kate Webster. She was actually born Catherine Lawler in Killane County, Wexford, Ireland, around 1849 or 1850. And this was in the midst of English colonial rule, uh, during which the devastating great famine, otherwise known as the Potato Famine, took place.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and that is when the English government, uh, official in charge of relief efforts decided to pull back on government aid and, uh, you know, starve the people to death, uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: With the following quote, "The judgment of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson." Uh, cool.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay. Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Love that. Gotta love it. Um, what a piece of shit. So, this was all going on, and in just seven years during this time, the combination of death and immigration out of Ireland saw the country lose a quarter, 25% of its population. That's how devastating...
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It was really, really, really devastating, on the population. And so, obviously as you can imagine during this time, many people did what they had to do for survival. And Kate was no different. She became a petty thief as a child, uh, to make a living, to survive.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she was imprisoned in Wexford at 15 years old for larceny. And once she got out, she stole money to take a ferry to Liverpool, England. And when she arrived, she continued to steal for survival there as well.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: When she was 18, she wound up in prison once again, this time for four years. And, uh, Kate told people that she was married to a sea captain at one time, which is where she got her last name, but historians are pretty sure she just made up a f-fake last name and, uh, changed her name and...
Em Schulz: And a story.
Christine Schiefer: And a story... And made up a story. Precisely. She also said she had four children with this sailor who all died, including the sailor. And as tragic as it is...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: We're pretty sure that's not true, and that she made it up, uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: To give herself like a false backstory and kind of create this new identity.
Em Schulz: But a... But also it p... It also probably wasn't that uncommon. Like that to us sounds like a terrible backstory because like, not only could we fact-check it now, but like... Like that just never happens.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like what would the odds be? But back then, I think, uh, uh, it was easier for kids to just die.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think it's definitely possible, and if it is true, obviously very tragic. It's just that the number of times that she changed her name and her stories...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Kind of point to like, this was probably just another...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Especially because she had been in prison and jail for, for most of this time. So like, whe...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Whe... When did you have four children? Where are they? Like I don't know.
Em Schulz: Totally makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: It just didn't really add up. People... People believed her because, why not? But, um, looking back, people are pretty sure this Captain Webster never existed. Um...
Em Schulz: Got it.
Christine Schiefer: So after her release, she moved around, uh, England doing domestic work, and eventually she moved to Notting Hill, uh...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, which I obviously know as one of my favorite VHS tapes growing up.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, she moved in as a cook and housekeeper where she met a man named Strong.
Em Schulz: Ohh.
Christine Schiefer: And, you know... [laughter]
Em Schulz: What a manly, manly name.
Christine Schiefer: And she thought so too, 'cause they had a son together, uh, in April of 1874. But unfortunately, Strong walked out on Kate and her son, their son. And so she resorted to thievery once again to survive. Now, she was in and out of prison over the years. Uh, and while she was in prison, her friend Sarah Crease would take care of her son, whenever she was, you know, MIA, aka in jail...
Em Schulz: Yeah. What a homie. What a homie.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know. You gotta have somebody like Sarah around, if you're gonna be in and out of jail. So in May of 1875, she was sent to prison on 36 charges of larceny and she served 18 months, and then was immediately sentenced to another year for a different crime. And by 1879, January of 1879, Kate was finally free again. And this is when she met a woman named Mrs. Julia Martha Thomas in Richmond, London. I had to Google it, 'cause I was like, "Richmond? Virginia?" No, no. So...
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Not quite. Julia was in her early 50s. She was twice widowed. And she's described in several sources as eccentric, but nobody like explains any further what kind of eccentric. Um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like that's pretty vague, so...
Em Schulz: And also, we both know that eccentric was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: A, a bless your heart when I was growing up. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's like a backhanded like kind of co... Uh, yeah. Yes. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Which like... Were you... Were you artsy or were you just like the, the local weirdo, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Were you like a loner? Were you...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. There's something... Or did you like, yeah, wear funky glasses? You know? Who knows?
Em Schulz: Right. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But she was something, some combination of the above because people described her as eccentric. But she was really popular. People really liked her. Uh, at church, her relatives, her family was really close with her. And she wasn't particularly wealthy, but she did have enough, uh, money, enough finances to hire a maid. And so she decided to hire somebody, uh, a young woman to work for her. And Kate, who had been living under several aliases trying to find work, stepped up to her doorstep and seemed to fit the bill. Um, Kate thought, "This is perfect. I'll live in this house, this nice house, and I'll work for Julia and like make a good living." But pretty immediately, Kate showed that she was not very good at being a maid. Um...
Em Schulz: Oh boy. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Like did a little... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Amelia Bedelia?
Christine Schiefer: This is like... Literally... Legit. This is like how I would be. It was like she's spilling stuff, dropping things, bumping into cabinets. I mean, it's like how I would try so hard and just be a colossal failure at this...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Kind of work. I mean, I can't even keep my own house clean. But... So, Julia was a little bit frustrated like, "I don't think this is what it's supposed to be like hiring a maid." Um, and according to her, Kate spent way too much time at the pub and was actually an alcoholic, and not enough time working and was just drinking instead of working. And when she did work, it was careless. Julia was disappointed. So a few weeks into Kate's service, Julia gave her final notice and said, "By February 28th, you're outta here. That's your last day."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, Kate didn't take that news very well. As her last day approached, she started to become more and more hostile. And Julia said... Is it "host-ile" or "host-le"?
Em Schulz: I think it's like a "vase" or "vahz".
Christine Schiefer: Either/or? Okay. Is it "vase" or "vahz"? [laughter] Is it "foy-yer" or "foy-yay"? Help me. I'm spiraling.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I, I say "host-le".
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Me too, obviously. She became hostile. So Julia said she felt unsafe with Kate at her home, and sometimes she even had her church friends stay the night 'cause she was so nervous around her maid.
Em Schulz: That's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's like she hired this woman, now she like can't get rid of her, basically. So on February 28th, Kate comes up to Julia and says, "I know this is my last day, but I haven't found a new job. I have nowhere else to go. Please, can you just let me stay the weekend?" So, we don't know if it was out of fear or sympathy, but Julia...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately agreed and said, "Okay, fine. You can stay over the weekend until March 2nd, and then you have to be out of the house."
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So March 2nd was a Sunday. And in the morning before church, Kate and Julia got into an argument before Julia left for the church service. Um, Kate had Sunday afternoons off between morning church service and evening church service, and Julia went to both. So Kate had to be home prior to each service to help Julia get ready. Um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like she was sort of also like, uh, doubling as a ladies maid, which is like the person who...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Helps your hair and helps you dress.
Em Schulz: Bu... Bu... Buttons your corset.
Christine Schiefer: Buttons your corset. Exactly. Puts ribbons in your hair.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so she had to be there for, to help her get ready for both of these church services. So Kate started the afternoon, uh, visiting her son at Sarah Crease's home where he was being taken care of, and then she headed to the pub and got pretty drunk.
Em Schulz: She got silly.
Christine Schiefer: She got... Just got a little silly. And she got home late, which agitated Julia even more. And they got into another argument before Julia then left for the evening service. So at church, Julia's friends noticed that she was very upset and she actually ended up leaving before the service even ended, which like never happened. She always was a loyal church-going lady and always stayed till the end. Today she was so distraught that she left early. When she got home, she and Kate got into another disagreement, but this time it really, really escalated. Apparently, in the heat of the argument, Kate pushed Julia down the stairs.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: And when Julia landed at the bottom, uh, Kate could tell she was badly hurt and she began screaming in pain.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: But Kate didn't want Julia to alert the neighbors and have her sent back to prison, so she ran down the steps and in order to silence her, she strangled Julia to death.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: So Kate later described this as a crime of passion and that during, you know, the heat of her anger and rage, she had shoved her down the stairs. And so this was like a in-the-moment kind of thing. However, what Kate ended up doing with Julia's body was so twisted that it, it's hard for people to believe there wasn't at least some premeditation or like some...
Em Schulz: Personal element.
Christine Schiefer: Like she, she got out... Yeah. Like something she got out of it. Uh...
Em Schulz: Mmm. Okay. 'Cause up until now...
Christine Schiefer: Because...
Em Schulz: I was even gonna say, "Oh, well, she came back from the pub and she was like all you know, twisted. So like, maybe like she... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. She just got like worked up and...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay. That sounds like that's gonna... My opinion's about to change.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So I mean, I, I, I could believe that this part could be an act of, you know, like in the heat of the moment, but it seems like she had it out for her further than that because what she decided to do...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Is get herself a razor, a meat saw, and a carving knife, and she decided to first decapitate Julia, and then completely dismember the rest of her body.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So she burned several of Julia's organs to dispose of them, and then she used an enormous...
Em Schulz: Burned? Wait. Sorry. Burn... Individually burned her organs?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So had to gut her to pull out each organ?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow. Okay. That's very... Okay. Keep going. Sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So dark. Uh, so she burned several of the organs. Then she used an enormous copper pot, which was usually used to like boil laundry...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: To boil the rest of Julia's body down into like a, a fat.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, so grotesque.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Afterward, Kate put the remains that she had, uh, in a box, except for Julia's head and one foot, which, uh...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: One source says there wasn't room in the box. We don't know why, but most of it went into this box and h-her head and her foot were left behind. Kate then spent several days scrubbing the house top to bottom in an effort to cover evidence of her crime. And it was a very bloody situation she had to clean up.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: She disposed of the foot in a garbage pile, and then she put Julia's head in a black bag, which she carried with her to visit some friends from a previous job. Uh...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Their name, it's a family called the Porters, and she just stops by with this black bag and she's like, "Oh, hey, howdy-do? What's, what's going on with you? Life's good." And she was wearing one of Julia's nice dresses. So she had gone in to her closet and...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Taken out one of her dresses, went to the Porters and said, "Oh, the saddest thing happened. I have an aunt and she passed away and she left me in her will, her beautiful home." And they believed it 'cause, I don't know, they didn't have any reason not to.
Em Schulz: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so Kate said, "You know, but I would love to move back to Ireland, so I'm trying to sell the house with everything in it. Can you help me?" And they were like, "Sure. We can, uh, introduce you to some people who might want to buy a house or who might wanna help you sell the house." So they're walking around town together, like stopping in pubs, chatting with people, and Kate, uh, says, "Oh, Mr. Porter, do you mind carrying my bag, uh, every now and then?"
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: "'Cause it's, it's a bit heavy." And so he's just walking around town carrying her bag for her...
Em Schulz: With a head.
Christine Schiefer: With Julia's head inside it. He obviously had no idea. Ughh...
Em Schulz: That's even... Sorry. That's even... I, I, I understand what I'm saying here, it's all crazy. But that's even more wackadoo than like the dismembering and... 'Cause I originally thought like, "Oh, maybe she was like really drunk." And like, even, like...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Obviously doing all that to a body, like exceeds being drunk, but at least...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: That could have been an element, I guess. But this is like days later, she's wearing the dress, she's carrying her fucking head around...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: She's like enjoying someone else... Like the risk of someone else finding out.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: There's a head in her bag.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Like...
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly where it turns from like, "Oops, this was an accident," to like, wow, you are milking this for all it's worth.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And also like, I don't know how like dismembered heads work, but is she not worried about like blood coming out of that thing and like...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Dripping everywhere?
Christine Schiefer: I wonder if it... Since it had been several days, if maybe that just... Ooh, I don't know. Or the smell. I mean, I'm not trying to be gruesome...
Em Schulz: The smell.
Christine Schiefer: But like... Ugh.
Em Schulz: You know, anyone could have been like, "Oh my God, this bag is heavy. What's in it?" Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or, "Hey, can I put something in your bag?" Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like, "Oh, do you mind holding this for me?" Exactly. So yeah, apparently he later did say it was very heavy and, uh, he just helped her carry it 'cause, uh, they would take turns carrying it.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. It's just so dark. And so at some point, Kate was like, "Oh, um, I'm gonna go see a friend real quick," and, uh, she came back without the bag. And they were like, "Where'd it go?" I mean, nobody really asked. They were just like, "Huh, that's weird. She came out with the bag, without... She came back without the bag now."
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So she's bag-less. Then Kate said, "Oh, anyway, I'm back from seeing my friend. Uh, so, Mr. Porter, your son Robert, um, I'd love to chat with him." So she gets Mr. Porter's son, Robert Porter, to help her with some stuff back at her house...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Which is Julia's house that she's claimed is now hers.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she brings him back and says, "Hey, I have this box. It's really heavy. Can you help me carry this box, um, to a bridge over the Thames? 'Cause I'm meeting someone there and this box is for them, but it's just really heavy." So, obviously this is a box of Julia's remains and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: She has Robert carry this to the bridge. And then she says, "Okay, anyway, uh, thanks a lot. You can go now." And as he's walking away, he hears a loud splash, which he later realizes was Kate dumping it...
Em Schulz: Dumping, dumping it.
Christine Schiefer: Off the side of the bridge. Yeah. So the box, she wasn't very bright in this way because overnight it washed ashore, and the next morning, a man discovered the remains near the Barnes Railway bridge, but the body did not have a head. And so Julia could not be identified. And on top of that, no one knew she was missing because there was no reason to know she was missing.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And so the newspaper just reported this as the Barnes Mystery, because it had been, the remains had been found near the Barnes Railway Bridge.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Kate worked fast selling everything out of Julia's house. Um, she was just trying to make cash off all the stuff in the home. And she began wearing Julia's jewelry and clothing, basically took on her identity, and she started calling herself Mrs. Thomas, which was Julia's name.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. A-and...
Em Schulz: Wow. It's gone... It's gone real... It's spiraled fully. But...
Christine Schiefer: It's too... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think even she can agree this is like way too far. And the next bullet point I have here, which like, duh, is that the people who knew Julia were like, "Is that Julia's maid calling herself Mrs. Thomas?"
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "What's happening?" You know?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like people in town knew her. So it's just kind of a weird con that isn't gonna work.
Em Schulz: It's also like... It's a... It's not even like grabbing all of Julia's like candles and shit and like putting it in a box and then going somewhere to another town to sell it. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like if I... Like, I feel like half my stuff, if it got sold to you, you'd be like, "Em has this exact same thing."
Christine Schiefer: "It's so weird, but I'll take it for $5."
Em Schulz: Right, right, right.
Christine Schiefer: No, it, it, it's true. And apparently, one of the neighbors literally noticed people carrying items out of the house...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And got suspicious. Like, duh, you know? So people definitely noticed, uh, pretty quickly. And to top it off, poor Robert Porter read the newspaper article about the Barnes Mystery and said, "This sounds a lot like the box I helped Kate carry to the bridge the other day."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he's like, "Wait a minute, uh-oh, I think I see what's happening here." So, several people go to the police with their suspicions about Kate, and investigators pretty immediately searched Julia's house. That is where they collect charred bones, an axe, a razor and a handle that had broken off the box Kate dumped in the Thames and...
Em Schulz: Those weren't the first things she tried to sell? And like also the charred bones, like I thought she got rid of all the evidence.
Christine Schiefer: I thought she got rid of the evidence! Apparently not. Like it was...
Em Schulz: Uh, the first thing...
Christine Schiefer: Pretty easy to pin it on her.
Em Schulz: The first thing I would've done is been like, "Oh, Mr. So-and-So, here's a saw that I don't need anymore. Would you like the saw?"
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Like... Or, or leave it in the woods or something like...
Christine Schiefer: Or saw off the bridge or, you know, uh...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It's... It really was not... And then, and then she's flaunting her dresses and jewelry around town and calling herself Mrs. Thomas. I mean, it was sort of like someone was gonna notice pretty quickly.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they did. And they were like, "Well, we know who did it. Obviously it was Kate." So they released a description of her, uh, and they called for her arrest. So meanwhile, Kate had fled. She had taken her son back to Ireland, but police caught up with her pretty immediately. They knew she was from Ireland. They went there, picked her up at the end of March. And unfortunately, this also had bad ramifications for Irish immigrants throughout the UK because at the time, um, you know, based on that early description of the great famine, anti-Irish sentiment was at an all-time high. Um, and Kate unfortunately seemed to fit every negative stereotype that many English people held about Irish immigrants such as...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Drinking too much, being lazy, being rude, being a thief, you know? And so she kind of ticked all those boxes. And so people like ate up the story and, and felt sort of like, "Oh my gosh, this sinister Irish immigrant woman murdering her well-to-do English employer."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Like they just loved this story. Um, and so this is like political fuel also for, for English media to use for its agenda. And, you know, obviously true crime is just compelling in general, but especially in the Victorian period, they were obsessed with crime. Um, I mean, Spring-heeled Jack, Jack the Ripper. Not sure why they're all called Jack...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: But they're...
Em Schulz: [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: You know, this was like the time where people were, uh, fascinated by these kinds of stories.
Em Schulz: If podcasting was out in those days...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. This would've been a humdinger. Yeah. This...
Em Schulz: We... This would be an old industry we're in.
Christine Schiefer: This would be like a timely episode instead of 150 years later. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so, you know, it was also very salacious that Julia Thomas's killer was a woman. Like this was not a common thing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: This was, you know, a twist on normal gender roles. And so, you know, it's just a shocking headline and people ate it up. And apparently, they sold hundreds of thousands of papers with this story. So gossip exploded. Some papers reported that Kate had saved the fat after boiling Julia's remains and had given it away as gifts, as lard, claiming it was pig lard.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, there's no actual evidence to support that, uh, so it was kind of dismissed as just like fabrication, but we're not 100% sure.
Em Schulz: Well... Wasn't there that, that woman who was a murderer and she sold people's fat as soap?
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Yep. Yep.
Em Schulz: So, I mean, it's happened before.
Christine Schiefer: It's possible. Yep. It's possible. And, uh, so some people claim that really happened. Uh, in the TV shows I watched like, uh, Snapped, they definitely play that up and she's like, "Here's some pig lard," you know? [laughter] But uh, it's got dramatization, you know, at its finest. So it's hard to say if that was actually real or just a good plot point. Um, but it's disturbing either way. And so, you know, when the trial commenced, this had become international news. Wealthy people and aristocrats fucking loved this story because it was like, "Now we're getting revenge for this Irish immigrant like killing one of our own." You know...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "This well-to-do woman didn't deserve this." So the, the court audience was mostly wealthy people and aristocrats. And Kate pretty much spent the whole trial denying any part in the crime. Uh, she blamed like several other people, including Strong, the father of her child, which didn't really make...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Any sense. Uh, and so the jury was like, "Uh, we're not buying it." She blamed like...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Three different people, then took it back and said, "Well, I still had nothing to do with it." It was pretty obvious she was lying. And so the defense basically, all they could argue is that, uh, "Hey, you have no proof that that body is Julia's. There's no head... "
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: "You have no proof." And that was their argument. Um, and it was true, obviously, but Julia was missing and Kate was wearing her clothes and jewelry and selling her belongings and calling herself Mrs. Thomas. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah. We're like, we're like 99.99% sure it was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. So the jury was like, "Eh, that's all well and good, but we're convinced and she's guilty." So in just under an hour, uh, Kate was sentenced to hang. And...
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: She first, fun fact, claimed she was pregnant, which would have commuted her sentence. And so she was examined by something called a jury of matrons.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Now, this is a fun fact.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: A jury of matrons was apparently a jury made up of women with relevant expertise, who essentially served to examine convicted criminals who claim to be pregnant, to decide whether or not they were.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Very specific job title. Uh, and appare...
Em Schulz: Like a league of mothers.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, it is. It feels like almost vigilante, the name of it. But apparently, they held like some serious authority that women did not have at the time because their ruling was final. So they basically had the power to commute executions. And for...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Women to be able to do that was just unheard of in like such a patriarchal legal system. And...
Em Schulz: I also appreciate that the... For some reason at this point in history, they were allowing women to make decisions about women.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. For once. I know.
Em Schulz: Instead of like, you know, today, like you don't even have to have a uterus, but you get all the opinion, you know? It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like they knew where they stood and they brought other people in, more, more experienced people.
Christine Schiefer: Who could... Who actually knew about women's bodies. Right. Exactly.
Em Schulz: Yes. They, they brought in, um, prominent sources. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I, I love that. I mean, I imagine it's because the men were like, "Gross. We don't wanna check if she's pregnant."
Em Schulz: [chuckle] Right.
Christine Schiefer: But still, it's nice to see that at least women were involved. Um, and apparently this system actually existed for centuries, until it was abolished in the 1930s. So it was around for a while. Um...
Em Schulz: Ah.
Christine Schiefer: And unfortunately for Kate, the matrons found that she had been lying, she was not pregnant. So, her sentence remained.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Before her execution, she finally confessed to a priest, but the way she described it as just like a crime of passion did not add up. Um, there were some reports that Kate had even used an axe in the final killing of Julia...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Which also, you know, would not have fit with like just pushing her down the stairs. And whatever the truth was, um, we'll probably never know because it died with Julia and Kate. Um, and when Kate was, uh, hanged, executions were no longer public. And she was actually even given more privacy because she was a woman. Um, so how kind of them...
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah...
Christine Schiefer: To finally give some, some, some sort of benefit when they're executed. Uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah, [chuckle] right.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. So thoughtful. So reporters were not allowed to attend, uh, the way they apparently would a man's execution. And Kate was the, only the second person to be hanged at the prison. And by the final execution, which took place in the mid-20th century, she actually remained the only woman ever executed there. Fun fact.
Em Schulz: Oh. Fun.
Christine Schiefer: Fun. It's a Em fun fact.
Em Schulz: It is, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] So when the prison started reusing old graves for future executions, they actually left Kate's grave alone because she was a woman and they didn't, [laughter] they didn't disturb women's graves. It's just such a weird...
Em Schulz: What a...
Christine Schiefer: Backwards, like, I don't... I... Sexism. I don't know. I don't know how to describe it as.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I...
Christine Schiefer: It's like, thanks?
Em Schulz: It's like, uh, yeah, it just feels like a backhanded compliment every time.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know how else to describe it.
Christine Schiefer: It's like you killed her, but that's so thoughtful of you to let her rest in peace? Question mark. It's just odd.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I, I don't totally understand it, but I guess that was how they rolled. So, anyway, after Kate's execution, there was still a mystery to be solved. Where, oh where is Julia Thomas's head?
Em Schulz: I was gonna say. 'Cause she left it at... She had it in a bag and then left it somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Yep. Yep. This gets...
Em Schulz: They couldn't... They didn't ask her before they killed her?
Christine Schiefer: They did. She just refused to reveal.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She refused to reveal where it was, because again, her defense team was like, "Oh, we're just gonna say that's not Julia's body, so... "
Em Schulz: Right. It's just a random body.
Christine Schiefer: "Definitely don't tell them where the head is." Yeah. So, for 131 years, Julia's remains were incomplete and were never...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Fully verified as to... As belonging to her. In 2009...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Do you know, uh, who Sir David Attenborough is?
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, good. He like narrates Planet Earth. He has that kind of like, "Oh, the, the... " [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay, keep going.
Christine Schiefer: "The mother chim... Chimpanzee... " I don't know. [laughter] He has like that British accent.
Em Schulz: David...
Christine Schiefer: He sounds very intelligent.
Em Schulz: David Attenborough. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: David Attenborough. Yeah, he has a very like, a, h-highfalutin accent, you know, and he does all the nature shows and it's just v-very, um... I don't know. He has a soothing voice. So this guy, Sir David Attenborough, who, uh, yeah, narrates Planet Earth, etcetera, he, uh, decided to expand his backyard. And so he bought...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] An old pub, uh, called the Hole in the Wall, which was located behind his house and he was like, "I'm gonna use this property to expand my yard." I imagine he, being a, a host of Planet Earth, needed some more greenery in his life...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: I, I suppose. And so, in October of 20... Excuse me. So in October of 2010, um, a construction crew was excavating the earth to expand his property and they found a skull. And it took detectives eight months using modern forensics and historical research to determine that this was Mrs. Thomas's head.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And finally, her cause of death was officially ruled as strangulation and head trauma. This is 131 years after, uh, she had been killed. And now we're able to use the evidence to kind of conclude that Kate disposed of Julia's head beneath the stables of the pub, which was close to Julia's house. So presumably when she said, "Oh, I have to go see a friend real quick," she went into the stables of a nearby pub and disposed of the bag and the head...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Underneath the stables. And that is where it lay for 131 years until Julia's identity could finally be completely, you know, uh, acknowledged.
Em Schulz: Science, science is fucking crazy. How...
Christine Schiefer: Science is amazing.
Em Schulz: How did... How on earth, without DNA evidence from early... From 130 years ago, how did they know it was her? I like... I believe you, but like, how?
Christine Schiefer: I have no... I have no idea. I have no idea. I'm no scientist.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: I know it's hard to believe. Yeah.
Em Schulz: No. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And, well, I mean, they also knew where her home had been. They knew... Uh, I mean, I'm not sure, but I'm sure they could tell that this head had been decapitated off of a body.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they probably were able to...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: You know, make that leap. Um, but yeah, that is the story. I just... I... It's just so Bananagrams that like Sir David Attenborough is like, "I guess I'll do some, uh, renovations." Oh...
Em Schulz: It's always wild that like anyone could find a, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like a decapitated head. But then like for it to be someone that everyone knows, it just feels like even rarer. Like what are the fucking odds of that happening?
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's so random. It's so random like a... What are the odds that he would buy the property next door and then decide to expand, take down the building over there? It's just so... Like the way... The machinations of setting that up over time, like history, crazy...
Em Schulz: Imagine, imagine if he did a documentary on that cold case and then he went, "But at the end, I found the head."
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Oh! And then he steps into frame like, "Yes, it is I, Sir David Attenborough." [laughter]
Em Schulz: "It was me all along." Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then he's in his like little English garden having tea. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. "Right here, right where I sit." Yeah, yeah.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: "Watch, watch... "
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: "As I have a sip of my chamomile." Anyway, that's that.
Em Schulz: Wild. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that crazy?
Em Schulz: That is crazy. And also, I'm pretty sure that whole story passed the Bechdel test. 'Cause like, I didn't hear about a man for quite some time. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Great fucking point. Even when Kate was like, "Oh no, it was this guy and this guy," like that didn't even stick.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Nope.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I'm gonna send you a couple of pictures that I have here. Hold on. Some...
Em Schulz: Of what? The head?
Christine Schiefer: No. God, no. Um...
Em Schulz: Dav... David Attenborough? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: David... Of Planet Earth. I just really love some... [laughter] Have you ever seen where Snoop Dogg like narrates Planet Earth scenes?
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It's the best. It's the best.
Em Schulz: You know, when I was in high school, my boyfriend at the time, all he ever...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that doesn't feel right.
Em Schulz: Nope. Uh, all he ever wanted to do, he'd be like, "Come over to my place," and we would just sit and watch Planet Earth while he got stoned. That was...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I mean, as a newcomer to, uh, you know, the lifestyle, I get it now. Like wow. [laughter] Like I could... I used to watch Planet Earth and just be enamored a-as it is. But like, you know, you add that in and it's like...
Em Schulz: It was like...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Every, every Friday night, he was like, "Let's get stoned and watch Planet Earth."
Christine Schiefer: I love that for him. Did you just sit there?
Em Schulz: I just fucking sat. I didn't even like Planet Earth that much. I was like...
Christine Schiefer: You didn't even like boys. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I... Uh, none of it was fun. I was just sitting on the couch.
Christine Schiefer: Like I pretended to like a lot of things for crushes, but you didn't even have that go... He didn't even have that going for him.
Em Schulz: So, his room was in the basement and he had like turned it into like this like actual, like a really cool party pad. And so I would just like walk around and like mess with his stuff and you just sat there on the couch.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. So you could still like have a good time and like do your own thing.
Em Schulz: He had like his like old I Spy books from when he was a little kid. And so I would just...
Christine Schiefer: Now, those...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Play with the I Spy books...
Christine Schiefer: If I got high and did that, I think my brain would explode. [laughter] But I used to love those books.
Em Schulz: Anyway, anytime I hear Planet Earth, I'm like, "Ugh." I just like... I, I'm sure it's lovely, but I associate it with being so fucking bored. Like... [laughter] So...
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of hilarious. 'Cause I remember like, they would play it at school and I would be like, "Joke's on you. I love this show." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like everyone would be like, "Boring," and I was like, "I'm actually so into this right now." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good times. Good times.
Em Schulz: Well... Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait. I forgot to send you the photos. Here they are.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's just like a newspaper clipping. Um, and then like, they would do these like kind of gruesome like recreations. Like they would draw the hanging like...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Right before they were hanged. I don't know. It's kind of gross. It's like grotesque.
Em Schulz: Oh, like, because back then, like you had to draw the picture for it to be in the newspaper.
Christine Schiefer: There weren't photographs for the newspaper. Exactly. But like reporters weren't even allowed. So I imagine they had to just im... Imagine what it looked like, which is also a weird fucking thing to do.
Em Schulz: Right, yeah. Yeah. So on the front page, it's a drawing of her execution, but if they weren't there, then they just drew...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They were like, "I imagine there were four white guys... "
Em Schulz: Yeah, they just drew like...
Christine Schiefer: "Standing around her with a rope."
Em Schulz: "My guess is as good as yours, but I'm the one that got hired to draw it."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's kind of like...
Christine Schiefer: "But you can't draw, so here it is."
Em Schulz: It's kind of like with the, um, the Lizzie Borden newspaper. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: All of the articles about her murdering her parents, the pictures of her are like drawn portraits because...
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: They didn't have photographs back then. It was... Or they...
Christine Schiefer: They're like, "You know this woman?" And people are like, "Oh yeah." [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or they had photographs but not like, you know, they didn't have the budget for that, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But they could afford a sketch artist for every other page.
Christine Schiefer: [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Anyway, wow, that was a, that was a topsy-turvy story.
Christine Schiefer: I gotta say it's, uh, it was full of twists and turns, you know?
Em Schulz: What does your shirt say?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it says, um, "Mamasaurus".
Em Schulz: Ohh, that's sweet.
Christine Schiefer: So I got, for Blaise's first Father's Day, I got him and Leona matching shirts. Hers says "Leonasaurus" and his says "Daddy Rex" or something like that. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Oh God. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And they would always wear them... I know. It's something stupid. And they would always wear them to the museum together. And then, the, the following year I got one and I was like, "Okay, but I'm... " Like, "Thank you, Blaise, but I'm not wearing this like w-with you two together. Like, you guys can wear your matching shirts, but like, I'll wear something else."
Em Schulz: But I don't believe you. I think all three of you like to wear matching outfits when you go out together. I think...
Christine Schiefer: I wish. I just don't have the balls for that. I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: What... You know, as soon as someone would like point it out, you'd feel so nervous and embarrassed for the rest of the day.
Christine Schiefer: I would be mortified. Yeah.
Em Schulz: [chuckle] Um, what, uh... Ending on a happy note, what's your current favorite outfit of Leona's that she can fit into?
Christine Schiefer: Ohh! Oh my gosh. I got her a little sweatshirt from Kohl's that says "Pumpkin". And apparently Lauren Conrad has a line of toddler clothing at Kohl's, fun fact, and it's...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: All so cute and like, you know, fall neutrals and like, so I've got a little maroon leggings with a little shirt that says "Pumpkin". Um...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: But I also bought us... Okay, speaking of matching shirts, I bought us these shirts. [chuckle] Mine says, uh, "Momster", and hers says, um... Oh my God, what does hers say? But like... Oh, I know what mine says 'cause I'm... I've worn it so often. Uh, let me make sure I find it. Christine. Oh yeah. Her shirt just says "Little Monster".
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: In like, in like cute... It's like purp... A light purple shirt with like lime green, like kind of...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Creepy writing, and it says "Mama's Little Monster", and then my shirt says "Momster".
Em Schulz: Dope. Dope.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, it's very cute. It's silly and dorky, but you know what...
Em Schulz: Are you gonna take her to the pumpkin patch this year?
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] I haven't even thought about it, but yes. Of course.
Em Schulz: Oh. But you should make her wear the shirt that says "Pumpkin".
Christine Schiefer: Wait, that's cute, actually. Hang on. I like that.
Em Schulz: And then the caption for your Instagram can be, "My favorite pumpkin in the patch."
Christine Schiefer: Goddamn. You're like writing my whole life script now. I love it.
Em Schulz: And then you can talk to Farmer Bob, you can get on a tractor riding because of the beginning of Funcle Em.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: You know, and then mention me the whole time.
Christine Schiefer: This is where it all began. And then every year she's like, "Mom, do we have to do the whole tractor ride where you met Em thing again?" I'll be like... [laughter] "This is a really special memory. I want you to be part of it. One day you'll appreciate it."
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, well, Farmer Bob and I say hi, and we miss you.
Christine Schiefer: Aww. Are you doing any fall stuff? Obviously.
Em Schulz: Obviously.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Obviously. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Stupid question.
Em Schulz: Honestly, you're really, you're just a big s-stupid, stupid...
Christine Schiefer: So fucking embarrassing.
Em Schulz: Dummy.
Christine Schiefer: Stupid idiot dummy.
Em Schulz: What's... So, what was... Yeah, I was gonna say, what's the thing that we were saying for a while? Was it idiot?
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. 'Cause Renée used to say idiot, but when she was... When she really meant it, she would put like an emphasis on the last T and it... It stung so bad.
Em Schulz: Say it. Say it.
Christine Schiefer: Idiot.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "You're such an idiot." And it was like, "Woah." 'Cause it wasn't like, "Ah, you're such an idiot." It was like, "You're such an idiot."
Em Schulz: Yeah, it cuts.
Christine Schiefer: And it felt like so cruel. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It cuts.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Well, uh... [laughter] I don't know how to end this. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, I like how we were like, "On a positive note... " Anyway... [laughter] Um, well, I guess on a positive note, we can say we're gonna go do our And That's Why We Drink After Hours...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Chat. Um, do we have a topic? Do you have a topic? I forget.
Em Schulz: Sure. I have a topic.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I was also gonna eventually talk about, um, active se... Oh wait, we already did active serial killers, didn't we?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, yeah, we'll talk something ghost-y this time.
Em Schulz: Okay, cool. And...
Christine Schiefer: Cool. That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.