E451 Labubu Covens and Immortal Butt Portals

TOPICS: ELLEN SADLER AKA THE SLEEPING GIRL OF TURVILLE, BLAZE NATHAN BERNSTEIN

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It’s Episode 451 and is that Xiinön flying over the Sphinx with a frappuccino?! This week Em brings us the wild story of Ellen Sadler aka the Sleeping Girl of Turville. Then Christine covers the heartbreaking case of Blaze Nathan Bernstein and we have some choice words for anyone targeting queer folks for any reason. And, lastly, can anyone let Em know what savory means? ...and that’s why we drink!

Photo Links:
Blaze Nathan Bernstein

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Transcript

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[intro music] 

Em: So here’s what’s going on, everybody. Welcome to episode 451. I have been on the edge of my seat for quite some time, waiting to ask a very important question to Christine. Christine, are you there? 

Christine: Will I marry you? Absolutely. 

Em: [screams] Ahh! 

Christine: Just kidding. You asked me that like two years ago, five years ago. 

Em: Well, the question is kiss specifically. I never said anything about like locking this down, but, um– 

Christine: [laughs] You did. You gave me a tractor bracelet, which I think I promptly lost. 

Em: Ohh. 

Christine: Or maybe it’s, maybe it’s somewhere in the, in the– 

Em: I– I did specify that’d be a wa– a Vegas wedding to be fair. 

Christine: That’s true. So, um, that’s already– 

Em: Prob– Probably annulled by now. 

Christine: –in the works. 

Em: Oh. [laughs] 

Christine: Probably annulled before it ever happened. [laughs] 

Em: Uh, but I’m still– We’re still out on, uh, the make out question. Anyway, um– 

Christine: Mm. TBD. 

Em: –the new one I have is please tell everybody– I have not heard anything, folks. I’ve been waiting until we were on the podcast to ask: how was Egypt? 

Christine: I went to Egypt. I’m actually shocked you recognized me, Em. I thought I’d get on here and you’d go– 

Em: You’re a new woman. 

Christine: Thank you for understanding. 'Cause I tried to pitch that joke to Blaise, and he said, “Okay.” And I said, “Okay, well in the moment, Em will say something funny or like about my like–“ 

Em: You’ve changed. 

Christine: “–I’m a new person.” Right, yeah. And to be fair, I put him on the spot, and he was trying to eat lunch. So, um, but thank you for playing along. 

Em: You do actually– Your, uh, your eye makeup is different today than usual. You’re wearing lipstick, which is unfamiliar to me sometimes. Uh, ooh! You’re got a really specific tip. It looks Egyptian. A very w– a winged tip. 

Christine: I know, right? I, uh, I wore zero makeup while I was there. So when I got home, I was like, “Ooh, I can play like, you know, dress up again.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um– 

Em: Gotta get back in it. 

Christine: No, it was really cool. It was a– just a beautiful experience. Um, I went with a few– There was twe– no, 19 people total, but there were like 17, 16 women. And, um– Yes? 

Em: Immediately, this sounds like your worst nightmare. Why did you do this? That sounds like– Like if I told you I’m going on a random trip with 19 random people– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –you would go, “I’ll never do that.” 

Christine: I got my own room. So I was like, “Okay, I can hide.” But also, I don’t know, Em. It’s like, you know, I’m on this, this road here where I’m like, just t– trust the universe. And I’ve always wanted to go to Egypt. I’ve had like a lifetime– I mean, look who’s here. 

Em: Oh, we’ve been hearing for years. We know. We– [Christine leans offscreen] Uh-oh, what happened? 

[Christine retrieves a statue from offscreen. It is a statue for Sekhmet, an Egyptian goddess. The statue is light brown with details etched out in white. She has the head of a lioness which is topped with a round sun disk on her head. She is depicted with the classic tripartite wig with hair that falls down the back and two sections on each side of the chest. She stands tall, wearing a long dress that ends right above her bare feet. The rectangular base of the statue appears to have hieroglyphs along each side.] 

Christine: There she is. My little Sekhmet. 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: And so– 

Em: Beautiful. 

Christine: Gosh, I just was so– So then when my friend Nichole, who does A Psychic’s Story– We were on her show before. Um, when she was like, “Oh, I’m actually planning a, a trip to Egypt with some people,” and I was like, “I’m going.” And this was like in January or something. And, uh, I just signed up right away without any questions. I had no clue what I was getting into. It was genuinely the most incredible experience of my life. Not– No shit, not being ironic. It was very life-changing. I came back, and I was like, “I am a new person, I feel.” 

Em: Wow. Cool. What– Can I– 

Christine: Um, yeah, it was really beautiful and cool. 

Em: Can I ask what ab– like what– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically? 

Christine: Like kind of all. Well, physically not great ’cause I did– 

Em: Well, physically now you have, you have the wing tip now on your eyes. 

Christine: I do. Okay. So physically all right– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –’cause I did also get mild food poisoning– 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: –and that kicked my Crohn’s into gear a little bit. But, you know– 

Em: That’s a rough one. 

Christine: –that was only for one or two days, so I feel like– And it was on the day of the hot air balloon, so I was like, “Cool timing. Not into that.” So– 

Em: So you’ll be in the sky just like– 

Christine: I skipped. I skipped. Yeah, yeah. Um. 

Em: So you didn’t get to go on an, on a hot air balloon ride? 

Christine: Actually, I got to not go on a hot air balloon ride. 

Em: I see. 

Christine: [laughs] So that was a privilege for me, I felt. 

Em: I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I, I see. Okay. 

Christine: And it was also wake up at 4 a.m. to go on the hot air balloon ride. And I said– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: [laughs] I– Yeah, you, you’ve been there. Yeah. So, uh– 

Em: Been there. 

Christine: I’ve– I felt that I– It worked out exactly. And I– You know, there were some issues along the way. Not issues, but just like, um, you know, longer bus rides than we expected and like some– just like discomfort. Like it’s 104 degrees. Like there were things like that, and I was like, “You know what? I’m just gonna go with it. Flow with it. Not complain. Just go.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And it was so perfect and beautiful and wonderful. And, um, I healed a lot of wounds that I’ve had. I– We did a lot of meditating. It was a very like spiritual group. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: So we did a lot of like meditating and journaling there. Everybody on the trip had a different like skill. Like one woman reads palms. One woman, um, is like really, really into astrology and can do your chart like, you know, super well. 

Em: That’s sick. 

Christine: So we’re on the bus like just trading– I mean, I didn’t have anything to offer. Um, comedic relief maybe. [laughs] But everybody else had something– 

Em: Everyone needs a personality hire, I’m telling you. [laughs] 

Christine: That’s right. Thank you. That’s probably why Nichole got me, got me on board. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Um, no, it was really cool. And you know, everybody– Oh, this one woman’s like really, really, um, into– She does a lot of like past life work. And so on the– on a especially long bus ride, we did like a past life regression where she kind of talked us through it, and we journaled. And it was just so fucking cool. And I feel like I– There were a lot of things that I kind of realized, and I’ve, I’ve decided to just really focus on myself. And I’ve noticed that as I left the country and the continent– [laughs] 

Em: Mm-hmm? 

Christine: –and my cell phone, um, my beautiful cell phone carrier, uh, you know, and got an eSIM, I was like, “Oh, I’m–“ I was getting a little anxious about like some family drama that’s going on and some conflict in my life, and I was getting antsy. And then I went there, and I was like, “I’m gonna focus on myself and not, you know, harp on that.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And within a few days, I started getting messages from people back home being like, “Hey, we’re like working on this. We’re processing this.” And people were messaging me, and I was like, “Wait, without my meddling, you’re all getting like– you’re all like healing and improving without me involved?” That’s fucking– 

Em: That’s tight. 

Christine: –shocking to me, the Gemini. But it’s also not shocking, and it’s also very exciting. So, I came home, and I feel like everyone’s kind of– I don’t know. I feel like things are just– I’m all about now like raising the frequency, right? I watch a lot of this like quantum physics shit. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: And I’m like sure if we’re all just making ourselves better, then the world will be better. Um– 

Em: It sounds like– 

Christine: So I’m clearly still on a manic high from my trip, but it was really lovely. 

Em: That’s fine. You’re allowed to have– Look, the way the world is at least– Welcome back to the USA, by the way. Um– 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: But any shot of dopamine you can get to your brain, just take it. Just ride that high. 

Christine: And I’ll be– Like it was so interesting to look– to see a totally different culture in a way where a lot of things are right in front of you like sexism and all that stuff is like right in front of you, but then our– one of our, um, guides, Bree, made a really good point where she said the West has all this too. It’s just hidden differently or displayed differently. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: And like we’re more comfortable with it ’cause it’s not, you know, maybe right in our face– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –like people with infants, you know, asking for money, that kind of thing. And I was like, “That’s really well put, you know.” Um, so yeah. 

Em: It feels like, um. I don’t know. Feels like a very lovely witchy retreat, like a coven retreat. Um– 

Christine: Thank you. I’m sure over the next, um, ten years, you’ll all have to hear about it so much that you’ll really want to kill me. And, you know, I understand, so. 

Em: That’s fine. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I mean, very few people are fortunate enough, interested enough, or able to leave the country to– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –to do something that significant– 

Christine: I felt– It was like a very mir– 

Em: –that you’ve always wanted to do. 

Christine: Yeah, it felt like very like miraculous. Like it just kind of appeared. It, it– The right timing, the right– I mean, don’t ask Blaise. I’m sure for him it was not the right timing for me to be gone 15 weeks. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: But, you know– No, 15 weeks. 15 days. Um, yeah, so. But, but, yeah, it felt very like– It was a huge privilege. It was really, really cool. Um, once in a lifetime. I literally– We got to sit – and this is not a joke – between the paws of the Sphinx at 3 a.m. Just our group, nobody else. 

Em: That’s sick. That’s sick. 

Christine: Like– And I– This is who I am now, Em. I saw a fucking UFO, and I didn’t even mention it ’til now. 

Em: You have changed. 

Christine: Shit is appearing and disappearing in front of me. 

Em: Y– Would you– 

Christine: And then Nichole goes, “Oh, that’s ’cause I activated your third ey– your psychic senses.” And I went, “Oh, great. Okay, here we go.” Um– 

Em: Did– Dare you elaborate on the UFO? I feel like, uh, this has been your, your dream your whole life. I mean, two dreams came true at once. [laughs] 

Christine: It was– It was! It was like, “Oh, I f–” But part of me was like, “Oh, exactly. This is how it was meant to happen, right?” Like I’m laying there, looking up at the sky with the Sphinx. I’ll post a p– I’ll send a picture. And I’m like looking at the stars, just like trying to, you know, just be in the moment. And all of a sudden, I see like this little thing come out from behind a star and do like a little loop around the star– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and go back behind it, and I was like, “What the fuck was that?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And it is 3 a.m., but like– 

Em: What color? What color? 

Christine: It was just kind of a white– It was like white like the stars but more glowy. I don’t know if that makes sense. 

Em: Did– 

Christine: Like more– 

Em: Did you see like any aliens or like– 

Christine: It was really far– [laughs] 

Em: –a Frappuccino fall out or any car keys? 

Christine: Actually, something, something like dripped on me– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and I was like, “It’s sticky. Is that vanilla Frappuccino?” Um, [laughs] she like sky wrote like a note. 

Em: She ga– I think Xiinön just like put extra lipstick on that day and kissed the windshield for you, so you could see her. 

Christine: Aww. And I did, and it meant a lot. Um– 

Em: Sorry, I didn’t mean to take away from your actual story. 

Christine: –but then it, but then it zipped– No, that’s way better. I wish I’d seen Xiinön. Maybe it was her. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Because then it– she zipped to another star, and I went, “Oh god. Okay, I am seeing this.” Like I thought maybe I’m just kind of, you know, wanting to see it. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Then it zips to another star, but it like hides. That was the weird thing. It was like hiding behind other stars. 

Em: That’s the beginning of a horror movie. 

Christine: Yeah! 

Em: You’re out alone in the middle of pretty much nowhere at 3 a.m. 

Christine: Like the dawn of civilization. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m like laying there, and all of a sudden, a fucking airship shows up, and I’m like, “Huh, fancy that.” Um, it was just crazy. 

Em: And also you have to be, you have to be careful about who you even tell that to. Because of course you would see a UFO in an area next to pyramids who have already gotten a lot of flack for like alien– You know what I mean? 

Christine: I know. And there was so much of that. 

Em: So you gotta be so careful about what you say. But I, I do believe you saw something, for sure. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: I don’t think they’re the same. 

Christine: And I, I’m not trying to say, “Oh, the aliens then sent me a, uh, a blueprint of how they m-made the Sphinx.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That is not what I’m saying. 

Em: Of a big fucking pyramid, yeah. 

Christine: I’ve just never seen anything so bizarre. And I’m like, of all very sacred places, I guess it makes sense you would see something kinda supernatural. But I mean, the enti– 

Em: Well, also in a world– Sorry. But in a– When you actively went on this like journey to like– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –have like a meditative experience. 

Christine: That was like the idea. 

Em: I mean, who, who knows what you tapped into. Who knows. 

Christine: I think that’s what it was too ’cause I was like trying to open myself to every like– not everything, but, you know, open myself to a lot of things, learning a lot. Um, apparently Nichole quote unquote “activated” my whatever. I don’t know. Psychic powers? I have no idea. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: She probably didn’t say that, but anyway, it was crazy. And then today, I thought, you know, I’m really trusting myself and my higher self – very dangerous. And I thought, “I know. I haven’t turned on the fireplace in five years since we moved in.” I’ve actually never turned them on. And I thought, “Why can’t I figure that out?” So I just go over there, and I start figuring out how to turn on the fireplace. 

Em: Mm-hmm? 

Christine: I figured it out. It worked great. 

Em: Did not see this coming. Okay. 

Christine: I didn’t either, trust me. Um– 

Em: I was waiting for the next line to be, “And the fire department’s downstairs.” 

Christine: “And I had to draw my eyebrows on today.” No. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, I will say Moonshine discovered fire.That was a downside to the whole experience. But then I went downstairs, and I was like, “Oh, right. We have one in the dining room too.” So I started kinda trying to figure that one out. And then I realize, “Wait, we don’t have–“ They’re these gas fireplaces. And I was like, “Wait, we don’t have like the key to turn the gas on.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And I’m like, “That’s strange.” So I’m kind of standing there, and I’m like googling something. I shit you not, Em. Something clangs. I’m, I’m not going to show you my whole outfit. It’s really just shorts and a tank top. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Something clangs from out of my shorts and hits the ground. It’s the metal fucking key for the gas knob. And I’m like, “Did that just fall out of my pants?” 

Em: It fell out– literally out of your ass. That’s crazy. 

Christine: It fell out of my ass. 

Em: You, you were like a chicken and an egg – just hatched it. 

Christine: I was like, “Where’s that key?” And I was like, “I don’t even know if it has one.” Like, honestly, I was like, “I’ve never turned it on. I don’t even know if it came with one. I don’t know if– what it would look like. I– The other one upstairs was gold.” And then something falls. It clangs to the ground. And I go, “What just fell out of my pants?” And it was that fucking silver key. And I went [sighs, making lips trill]. 

Em: That feels– I mean, that answers our question of like do things teleport or move. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: I mean, if it literally– 

Christine: I didn’t even feel it on me. Like, it’s not like I felt it like– It just– I felt it fall out of my pants. It was so fucking weird, Em. 

Em: That’s– I’m sorry– In an– If we were reading this off of a Listeners’ episode, I’d go, “Ew.” Like I– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I don’t– It’s you, so I’m trying to like keep it together, but that’s actually– like that’s– Like I’m happy for you, and like what a nice kind experience, but also so fucking creepy. 

Christine: Yeah. Okay. So this is what happened a lot on the trip is that we started joking that Nichole’s butt was a portal because one time my– I had a little crystal. I know. [laughs] 

Em: So, you literally manifested this shit. 

Christine: I did. I didn’t– 

Em: Your butt’s a portal now. 

Christine: I didn’t mean to. [singing] ♪ Your butt is a portal ♪♪ 

Em: Sorry. [laughs] 

Christine: [speaking] Okay. So then the crystal I was holding [laughs] fell onto her bus seat, right? And she’s talking to someone else. So she’s leaning forward. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And then I started doing that thing. You know when there’s like a fabric or cushion seat and you start like pressing down– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –so the thing rolls toward you? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And it’s this teeny tiny Herkimer diamond, which I feel like maybe you told me about or somebody told me about. They’re these from Herkimer, New York, and they’re only from there. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: They’re these beautiful little crystals. And it falls there, [laughs] and I’m like pressing it to try and get it to roll toward me. And this is– I’m doing this for like 30 seconds, being like, “This is so stupid.” Uh, and then suddenly she leans back, and I’m like shit. So I’m like, “Nichole, I’m sorry. My little Herkimer diamond is under your butt,” and she goes, “Oh, shoot.” And before I can say like, “Don’t do that,” she stands up. And I’m like, “Oh no, now it’s going gonna like fall.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And I was like, “Oh, it’s probably stuck to your butt ’cause I don’t see it on the seat. It’s not there.” So she sits back down, and she’s like, “Let me tune in real quick.” I’m not even kidding with you. And I was like, “Okay, Nichole, you tune in. I think it’s just stuck to your butt, but whatever. You tune in.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So she’s like, “It’s in the bag where you were trying to put it.” I had this little bag, and I was trying to pour all my crystals into it. 

Em: Can you imagine having a That’s So Raven skill where you never lose anything? 

Christine: Unbelievable. 

Em: That’s insane. 

Christine: Infuriating for everyone else. 

Em: I– [laughs] Ima– Like she would be such a hero at a Super Bowl game like, like on the TV. Like she– You’d never lose a remote. You ne– 

Christine: And she makes a really good chili. So like, yeah on– in every way. [laughs] 

Em: Double hitter. I’m telling you. [laughs] 

Christine: So she sits there, okay? And she’s like, “It’s in the bag,” and I was like, “No, I put all the crystals in a bag, and this one fell out like.” 'Cause it was so small, it got stuck to my palm. And I was like, “This one fell out,” and I put like the fool’s gold and all the pyrite all that in there. She goes, “Check the bag.” 

Em: And it was there? 

Christine: And I’m like, [groans]. Finally, I check the bag, and it’s there. And I go, “What the fuck?” I shit you not. She stands up. There is literally a fool’s gold under her butt on the seat. And I– 

Em: What? 

Christine: It took me like a few hours to be like, “Wait, pyrite is also called fool’s gold.” Like that felt like a prank. 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: But it was like the trippiest thing of like I was watching it trying to get it to like come back to my hand; she sat down, stood up. It’s gone. Sat down again, and here’s fool’s gold. And then the other one is like in my backpack in a little pouch. 

Em: So– 

Christine: Anyway, so that just happens now, I guess, to our butts. They just start– Maybe that’s what she activate– 

Em: Don’t put that on my butt. I’m– Please don’t put that on my– [laughs] 

Christine: I might ’cause it’s actually really convenient. 

Em: I feel like– Uh, life had to have been really hard for her at sleepovers ’cause you know friends just wanted to test it and just hide shit all the time– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –go, “Now where is it? Now where is it? Now where is it?” 

Christine: Yeah. “What am I thinking? What number am I thinking?” 

Em: I mean, could you text her right now and be like, “Where do you think this thing f– Where do you think this gas key came from this morning?” And if she doesn’t say, “Out of your fucking butt–” [laughs] 

Christine: I’m gonna text her. I’m texting her. This is your test, Nichole. Also she listens to the podcast, and she’s like– The whole time, she kept going, “Sure, sure, sure.” And she was like, “Damn it.” And everyone’s like, “What?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And she’s like, “It– That’s what Christine always says.” And everyone’s like, “What?” And I was like, “Don’t even worry about it, guys. It’s, it’s–“ [speaking while typing] “Hello–“ I haven’t responded to her nice voice memo either. I just haven’t even talked to her s– 

Em: [laughs] Where she’s like, “I had such a great trip. I learned so much about you.” 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. [laughs] No response. 

Em: It’s like, “What came out of my butt today? Tell me.” 

Christine: [speaking while typing] “Hello, I lost something today, and it reappeared.” Or no, I didn’t even lose it. I couldn’t find it. I didn’t even think we had one. Like what the fuck? 

Em: Yeah, I would– No one would. I– If I saw that, I’d go, “L–“ 

Christine: How would I know? Like I’ve never used it. 

Em: “Clearly, that’s an outdated thing that nobody has in their home anymore. So I’m not even gonna look for it.” 

Christine: And my pants don’t even have pockets. Like I don’t know. It’s so fucking weird. 

Em: Which it begs the question, which ghost did it? Like was it that someone that just like lived in your house before? 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: Was it like whoever you channeled when you were on your trip? Was it like someone that always watches over you? Like there could be so many different– 

Christine: I-Ss it just Nichole like– 

Em: Is it just Nichole? 

Christine: –fucking showing up in my house? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Could be. She’s va– 

Em: Or it could be someone who just really liked a fireplace, and finally you wanna turn on the fires in your house– 

Christine: Oh, that could be, Em. 

Em: –and they’re so excited, and they were like, “Take it. Take it. T– Start turning on the fire.” 

Christine: Oh, it was probably Moonshine. He was probably like, “You just taught me about this.” 

Em: [laughs] He, he certainly told the ghost, “Put that in her butt.” 

Christine: “Turn this one on for me too.” [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m so sorry I’ve talked so long– 

Em: No. 

Christine: –but thank you for asking. It was really great. I’m sure– We went to ev– For 15 days straight, we went to like multiple sites a day. Um– 

Em: Not– 

Christine: –and a lot of very profound things happened. So, I’m sure they’ll pop up as I barge my way into the conversation. 

Em: No, no. I– Look, not– Again, not a lot of people get to go out of the country, let alone specifically Egypt. So, you’re kind of our, uh, tour guide right now. So, um– 

Christine: Yay, I learned a lot. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I was like the dork at the front with the tour guide, Ahmed, who’s now my favorite. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: And I was just like, like a huge nerd. I was like taking notes. Obsessed. 

Em: Did you bring back merch? What was your favorite thing you ate? And what was your favorite souvenir? Well, I guess that’s the same question as merch. Merch and food: what did you get? 

Christine: Shockingly, my favorite food there– I famously– Not famously– 

Em: Don’t fucking say a hamburger or something. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: What? 

Christine: I famous– They do make a lot of club sandwiches, which is weird for a place that doesn’t eat pork. 

Em: Huh. 

Christine: But anyway. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: Um, lentil soup. I famously cannot stand soup. Any type of soup. I don’t like soup. I don’t eat soup. This fucking lentil soup. I have not stopped thinking about it. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: So good. Random. I don’t think that would be something I ever would have thought I’d like so much. Uh, lentil soup was the f– It was the favorite. Um, most of the rest of the food was like chicken, rice, you know– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –just kind of the, the standard. I– We went to a papyrus school, and I bought this print, uh, that they– They make the, uh, papyrus out of the papyrus plant. We got to see how they do that, and then we bought this beautiful print. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: Um, we went to– Uh, of course– 

Em: I was waiting for a Papyrus font situation there. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: That’s why my face looked weird, but whatever. 

Christine: You know, they wrote it in hieroglyphs, but maybe on the bottom I can, I can write in Papyrus. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Just translate it in Papyrus. 

Christine: And then I– We went to a rug weaving, uh, place where they make these silk rugs. 

Em: That’s sick. 

Christine: And of course I spent far too much money on a rug for my downstairs. But I thought– 

Em: I think that’s worth the money. 

Christine: I’m replacing one from– 

Em: Like you’re making it yourself in Egypt. Are you fucking kidding me? 

Christine: Yeah. I’m replacing it from Overstock.com from seven years ago. 

Em: [scoffs] So? 

Christine: So I figure it’s about time for an upgrade. [laughs] 

Em: Divide it by seven, and that’s how much you know it’s worth. 

Christine: There. 

Em: It’s worth a per– 

Christine: Just like a yearly– 

Em: Like a subscription. 

Christine: –you know, Klarna payment. Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, so that’s that. It was beautiful. I bought some like bracelets and things but not too much. Um. 

Em: I, I have to ask the que– I imagine most people are wondering this: pyramids. You went, you saw. Were you in one? What did it look like? How did it feel?– 

Christine: We were in, I think– 

Em: Did you see King Tut or any– Like w– Any landmarks we would know about that you saw? 

Christine: [sighs] I– We went to the Great Pyramid, and we got solo access. 

Em: Shut the fuck up. 

Christine: Again at 3 in the morning, we got to go in there. 

Em: How did you do this? Is this just like a thing that you could pay for? Like it’s like a VIP situation or–? 

Christine: I, I think maybe it’s something that I don’t know the ins and outs of on purpose. So– 

Em: But you don’t need to know, sure. 

Christine: You’re right. [laughs] I think Ahmed just knows how to get us cool places. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: And, uh, so I was like, “Don’t question it, I guess.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, I’ll probably check with Nichole to make sure I can say all this. Just– I mean, I don’t think there’s any– We didn’t do anything. It was all very– 

Em: I mean, Ahmed’s a popular name. No one– 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. And it was all very approved by the government, which that’s its own story. 

Em: And I, and I have a feeling that really not many Egyptians are listening to the show, so I think we could probably skate past. 

Christine: I mean– 

Em: No? 

Christine: Yeah, I think so. I mean, um, shout-out if you are. Uh, your country is pretty cool. 

Em: Hey, Ahmed! [laughs] 

Christine: Hey, Ahmed! He might be. Um– 

Em: Alright, sorry. Landmarks. Landmarks. 

Christine: Anyway, it was– Oh, yeah. We went to the Great Pyramid. Um, we went to– I think my favorite– There was like the, the temple, one of the chapels to Isis we went, and I had a very, um, profound experience. I just started like– 

Em: Welling up? 

Christine: –sobbing. No, sobbing. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Like snot sobbing. Like it was bizarre. I had this like full on– 

Em: Do you feel comfortable to talk about that or no? 

Christine: Yeah. It was– So Isis is such a beautiful story because she, she and Osiris were, uh, like the first– I-I’m gonna say this wrong, and please don’t– Please understand that I know that I’m saying it wrong if you’re a historian. But Isis and Osiris, um, slightly awkward. They were brother and sister, also husband wife. It was a long time ago. And, uh, Isis was born – this is according to our tour guide– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –with, um, her son kind of inside her– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –but not like for– sort of like how women are born with ovaries, you know. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: And Set, uh, the, the evil brother seeking to take the throne, killed Osiris, and that was their actually their, their other brother. And, uh, Isis out of deep grief went to f– collect all the pieces of her brother because Osi– uh, Osiris had been dismembered into 14 pieces and spread across Egypt. 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: And so she f– she turned herself into a vulture, and she collected all her pieces of her beloved brother. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And she made him whole again. 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: And when she did that, the, um, kind of dormant child inside her, uh, was fertilized, and Horus was born. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And he’s a falcon god. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And, um, he kind of was the one who brought the knowledge to, uh, the pharaohs. And so Isis spent her wh– until he was ten years old, which is kind of the age that children, um, would go out and like follow their dad and go work and, you know. But until ten, they would stay with their mothers. And so the story is that because she had turned herself into this vulture, she was able to turn herself into a variety of different animals to protect him as he grew up because his uncle Set was trying to kill him again for the throne. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So she just transformed into all these different animals to keep her son safe. 

Em: Oh, nice. 

Christine: And then when he was ten years old, he kind of went out on his own. And I just– I had this like very– We did a meditation on like motherhood and the grief of motherhood. And– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It just was like a very– It just hit me very hard. And I think I just was thinking of like– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –being a mother, my mother, my dad’s mother, my mother’s mother, like all the way back. And it was just a very, um, a very profound thing. And I swear to god, I’ve never like– I didn’t e– Of course I didn’t bring the tissues in there. So, I had my mom’s scarf that I was wearing– 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: –and I just was like snotting all over it. 

Em: She’s not getting that back. Yeah. 

Christine: I literally told her. I was like, “I have to put that in vinegar or something before I give it–“ [laughs] 

Em: “I’m going to a rug making class tomorrow. I’m gonna s– make you a new scarf.” 

Christine: “I’ll make you a new one.” 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Anyway, so there were just like pla– things like that that just like hit me. And then they were like, “Okay, let’s all take a big group picture, and then we all get on the bus.” But everyo– half the people are like crying because they’ve had some experience. We’re journaling. It was all very like cathartic. And– 

Em: That’s awesome. 

Christine: –it was very cool because when you’re crying, it wasn’t like, “Oh, what’s wrong?” You know, it’s like everyone’s kind of having their own experiences, so you don’t feel like you need to– 

Em: Like everyone gets it what’s happening. 

Christine: Everyone gets it, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And there’s no pressure like you need to– 

Em: It’s a really like safe way to have that experience. 

Christine: It felt– Yes. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, that’s nice. I– 

Christine: It was cool. And I made a lot of very cool friends, um, all over, all over the world. So, it was very, uh– 

Em: Sounds like you joined a coven, my friend. Sounds like– [laughs] 

Christine: I think I might have. And if not, I’m going to pretend I did ’cause– [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, uh, if you’re listening any of you, don’t, don’t, uh, deny it. It’s, uh– 

Christine: Sorry. 

Em: –it’s much cooler this way. 

Christine: You’re part of it now. Um. 

Em: Just a rag-tag team of– 

Christine: Oh, I did bring my Labubu. 

Em: –special people. 

Christine: 'Cause Le-Leona said, uh, “You cannot bring any of m–“ I said, “Can I bring a stuffed animal to do Flat Stanley in front of like the pyramids?” And she said, “My stuffed animals are safer with me.” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: And I said, “Okay, I can’t argue with that.” And then she said, “You can take one of your stuffed animals and then point it at my Labubu.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Clocked. 

Christine: And I went, “Cool. Pretending it’s yours and taking it with me. Excellent.” Um, and I– 

Em: To know that a four-year-old knows you well enough to know like I– “You wouldn’t dare touch my shit.” [laughs] 

Christine: I know. And she’s, and she’s right. I was like, “Oh, fuck.” So, I brought a Labubu. I said, “Leona, what should I call it?” And she said, “Uh, Leona.” And I went, “Okay.” Um, and so– 

Em: Leona Labubu is actually a great name. 

Christine: I know. And so I was like, “This is Leona Labubu.” And like I was embarrassed at first, and then about like halfway through the trip, people were like, “Oh my god, have you seen that little thing Christi– that monster?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like most people didn’t even know what they were. And all of a sudden like people were like, “Can I have her for a little while?” and would like take pictures and like– 

Em: That's cute. 

Christine: Anyway, it was very fun. And then we, we did like a little, uh, Labubu circle where we put him in the middle, and we were like [chanting] “Labubu…” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And we were– took a little video to be like this is our new coven of Labubu. 

Em: Well, the irony of, uh, Leona thinking her items weren’t safe when like for once you’re in a circle full of psychics who could just tell– 

Christine: I’m just like– 

Em: –you’ll never lose it. 

Christine: Yeah. I’m, I’m elevating it to godlike status in front of a sacred pyramid. Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] You’re having like a weird séance with it. Yeah. Um– 

Christine: Anyway, so other than that, everything’s pretty normal. How are you, Em? I’m so sorry to have talked so much. 

Em: No, nothing I– 

Christine: But thank you for opening that door for me. 

Em: Nothing I did was as interesting as that. So, please have the floor. Um, nothing interesting’s going on over here. We’re good. Uh– 

Christine: I mean, you have beautiful wall art behind you. So I think any hotel room that you’re in– 

Em: Thank you. [sighs] I know. 

Christine: –just the vibes. [chuckles] The lines. 

Em: I’m, I’m in a– I know. Well, it’s nice to be back in a hotel. I haven’t been in a hotel in months and months. So, um– Right? I don’t remember where I’ve been lately. 

Christine: And I ha– And I ha– I don’t either. And I’m just staring at you blankly. I have no idea. And it has AC, right? 

Em: It has AC. Thank god. Uh– 

Christine: There you go. 

Em: I asked Christine early on if anyone could– if she could hear my AC. And honestly, if you said yes, I would have kept it on anyway. It was so hot. 

Christine: I would never have said yes, even if it was super loud. [chuckles] 

Em: Thank you. Um, no, I am seeing friends tomorrow in Philly. Um, which this is like our first– 

Christine: Oh, fun. 

Em: I don’t know if this is go– I’m gonna absolutely force that it become like an annual thing, but this is our first time where like a bunch of my childhood friends that all live in different areas have like tried to all do a get together somewhere. So– 

Christine: Oh, cute. 

Em: So we’re going to Philly, and then because I’m trying to do my 50 states by 35, um, I’ll be near Delaware, which is like the last one on the East Coast I need. And so, of course, my mom just decided that we’re going to Delaware. So as soon as she found out I was on the East Coast, she decided I wasn’t going home as soon as I’d like. So, um, we are going to Delaware after I see my friends. 

Christine: Yay! 

Em: So– And everyone I tell that I’m going to Delaware, they all go, “Why?” 

Christine: “Why?” [laughs] 

Em: 'Cause apparently they’ve gone, and it’s– There’s nothing much there. 

Christine: M– Immediate reaction. It’s sort of like you go there if you like know someone there or you’re like in school there, you know. 

Em: Yeah. If you know– If you’re Joe Biden, I guess. 

Christine: Or if you’re– y– Joe Biden, etc. 

Em: Um, I think like the only two famous people from there are like Joe Biden and like Aubrey Plaza or something, but. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Um, which I did find an interview where she recommended things, so I’m just gonna do an Aub-Aubrey Plaza tour, I guess. Um, but I– I’m excited to go. I’m excited to like check one off my list. And I like that the town is– the, the town? The state is the size of a town. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: And so we’re gonna knock out like six cities in a weekend, so I’m pretty excited about that. And– 

Christine: Two birds, one scone, you know. 

Em: [chuckles] Um, so that’s kind of all I’m doing. The reason I drink this week is, uh, because I’m gonna be gone, this was my first time boarding Hankies. And I’m gonna– 

Christine: [gasps] How’s my baby? 

Em: He’s probably not doing good right now. Um, he– 

Christine: What if he’s doing great? What if he’s like– 

Em: Maybe he’s having a party, but, as you know because you’re the one who recommended this dog place to me ’cause Gigi used to go there– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –um, they have– They post like regular Instagram videos and stuff like that, so you can check on your dog at all times. And they have like a live camera. 

Christine: I do love that. 

Em: But so, um, in every video, he has just looked so scared out of his mind. 

Christine: No! 

Em: I know. And I– 

Christine: But I bet you like two days in he’ll be like the rock star of the group. 

Em: It, it does help that his best friend at the dog park also goes there for daycare during the day. 

Christine: Aw, so he gets to have playdates. 

Em: So at least– And also– This is very– I’m sorry. Now I’m also stealing time here. But, um– 

Christine: You’re– [chuckles] It’s not stealing if it’s our time that we are only using. 

Em: [laughs] Well– 

Christine: I mean, it’s their time too, but listen, they’ve committed. They hit play. 

Em: Sorry for your time if you’re like trying to like just wait for us to finish, so you can press pause and then go to the grocery store or something. Um– 

Christine: Sorry if you’re that one person who always comments what time we start our stories ’cause you’re like, “Any second now.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Although I highly appreciate that person also. Um– 

Christine: We see you, and we respect you. Yes. 

Em: I– We acknowledge what’s happening there. We get it. 

Christine: We know. We know. We get it. 

Em: Um, but so he was apparently just like full on panicked every time I took him to doggy daycare. And um– 

Christine: Baby. 

Em: I mean, it’s like it’s a nice place, but we are, I think, like his fifth or sixth home. And so I just– I’m constantly terrified that he thinks– 

Christine: Aw, he gets nervous. Yeah. 

Em: –that we’re not coming back. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, and I guess he warms up after like an hour, and he’s okay. He’s not totally panic-stricken, but he still would– As soon as I’m there, he wants to like get the fuck out of that building. 

Christine: Yeah. Gigi’s kind of that way. 

Em: Um, but I– I didn’t know this, but I guess Cosmo’s– Sorry, Cosmo’s his friend at the dog park. Um– 

Christine: I was like, “Cosmopolitan magazine?” 

Em: No, Cosmo OddParent, excuse me. 

Christine: [laughs] My mistake. 

Em: Uh, Cosmo is one of his best friends. And I guess Cosmo’s parents were dropping him off and saw Hank through the window, and they’re like, “Oh my god, is that Hank?” and then said Hank and Cosmo are best friends. So then the dog park decided to put all the other dogs away and let Hank and Cosmo have alone fun time, and they got to– 

Christine: It’s their play date, their personal play date? 

Em: And apparently that really helped Hank warm up and feel safe when he had like a buddy. So. 

Christine: Ohh, mm! I’m so anxious when I prescribe – prescribe? – when I, uh– 

Em: Suggest. 

Christine: –recommend– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –suggest places ’cause I’m like, “I– It was great for me. I just don’t ever want anyone to feel like, you know.” 

Em: No, it’s– 

Christine: So I’m so happy. I’m so happy that they’re just– I love that place. Um. 

Em: I know. I, I– He’s– He– They seem very lovely there. I don’t think like anything bad is happening to him. I think he’s just scared. Um. 

Christine: Yeah. I mean, yeah. 

Em: And so– 

Christine: Sorry, I’m looking for my mouse. That’s why I keep fucking under the desk like. [laughs] 

Em: You’re good. 

Christine: Not a real mouse, sorry. To clarify, not a real mouse. 

Em: Oh, by the way, another reason I drink is because– Oh, she just walked away. Okay. Um– 

Christine: Found it! 

Em: [laughs] Uh, another reason I drink is because we have a mouse in our backyard. And that’s– 

Christine: A real one, I’m assuming. 

Em: A real one who has charged me. 

Christine: Is Hank having so much fun? Charged you? Oh no. 

Em: Ran directly at me, and I– Just I– I had a camera back there. Obviously, I got video of me going, “Ahh!” [laughs] 

Christine: Okay, forget Egypt. That’s what we should have immediately talked about, please. 

Em: Um, it was, it was horrifying. And I can’t tell if it was a mouse or a rat. I know ev– Apparently there’s a difference between them. It looked like a big ass fucking princess bride rat to me. 

Christine: Em does not give a shit, yeah. [laughs] 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Yeah, what are those called? A, a– 

Em: Of un– 

Christine: Of unusual size. 

Em: Yeah. Something of unu– ROUB? 

Christine: Rodents of unusual side– or size? 

Em: RO– ROUS? 

Christine: Rodents of unusual size. ROUS, yes. Yeah. 

Em: Um, that’s what is living in my backyard, by the way. Um– 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: And then the front yard is coyotes who are literally bigger than Hank. They’re fucking wolves. 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: Um, and one of them just walked– It was like, like, like I owe money to the mob and now they’re intimidating me. 

Christine: They’re just like stalking in front just to give you a message. [gasps] 

Em: One of them the other day was literally just pacing our street, just, just up and down walking, like waiting for something. 

Christine: That's terrifying. 

Em: And then like I’m on the Neighbors app, and everyone– 

Christine: It's all people talk about on like Nextdoor and shit. 

Em: And– Well, the, the coyotes have been successful. Um– 

Christine: [gasps] No! 

Em: And so now Hank is only allowed in the backyard ’cause there’s tall gates but that’s where the rat is. I ca– No– I– No– I just– I don’t– I can’t have anything. You know what I mean? 

Christine: Our corgis were attacked by a coyote once, and they were so stupid that the girl one ran after it into the woods. And my stepmom goes– She starts running with a tennis racket. I’m like, “I don’t know.” So then I start running. I was like 13. And my stepmom goes, “Go get them.” And so I’m running into the woods, and I– It like kind of hit– 

Em: [laughs] What? Towards coyotes? 

Christine: Literally go get the fucking coyote. I’m like– And then I’m running in the woods. Anyway. But this is like the woods of Ohio. You’re in a b– a major metropolis. It’s just so trippy. Uh– 

Em: Well, a lot of people think that like ’cause I’m in LA that I wouldn’t be near a bunch of like wildlife. But Burbank is right next to a bunch of mountains, and so they come– 

Christine: True, the mountains. Yeah. 

Em: They come down at night from the mountains looking for something to eat. Um, and there’s a really, as we all know ’cause I’ve talked about this before, there’s a big skunk population. So I think they usually eat u– eat the skunks. Um– 

Christine: Mm, I see. I see. 

Em: And sometimes they eat things that aren’t the skunks. And there’s raccoons. I mean, but so Hank would absolutely not survive. Um, he– His favorite thing to do is run towards danger. So– 

Christine: That’s kind of exactly– That’s like my corgi. It’s like Gio. It’s like, “Where are your instincts, my friend?” 

Em: Yeah, there’s a guy at the dog park who, um– I don’t know how else to put it, but he– There’s some mental health concerns there. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And there have been times where we’ve had to call the police because, um, he was a danger. And only when he’s a danger does Hank run right towards him. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: And I’m like, “Get the fuck away from him.” I’m like– It’s– 

Christine: What are you doing? 

Em: Yeah. He’s, uh– There– And there’s really nothing we can do. There’s nothing the cops can do ’cause he lives nearby. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And so every time they’ve shown up, he’s already like back in his house, so they can’t go in without a wa– It’s a whole thing. The dog park is a wild place. 

Christine: Hank’s like, “I’ll handle it. I’ll go rogue.” 

Em: Yeah, he’s like, “Don’t worry if I rub up on him and hug him while he’s–“ Yep. 

Christine: Yep. Vigilante justice. Yep. 

Em: Uh– [laughs] It’s like fucking Batman. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Anyway, I don’t know how we got here. I– I’m, I’m, I’m drinking because I had to say goodbye to my little puppy dog for ten days. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: We’ve never been away for ten days from each other where he wasn’t at least at home with a Rover. This is his first time away for ten days which scares me. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and there’s a mouse. And then somehow equally as scary as one mouse, there’s like hundreds of coyotes that are trying to kill my dog. 

Christine: At least they’ll probably eat the mouse if that gives you any condolences. 

Em: As an hors d’oeuvre, an amuse bouche as you say. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. That– Just to– Just eat that thing. Just one bite. 

Em: An a, an “amouse bouche”. 

Christine: An amouse bouche. Listen, you know, I don’t usually like your, your on– off-the cuff puns, but that was a good one. 

Em: All right, Christine. Well, do you drink anything today? 

Christine: You know, I brought multiple options. 

Em: Ooh. 

Christine: I brought my vitaminwater [pronounced “veet-a-min”]. Um– 

Em: I think you’re the last person on earth who still drinks vitaminwater. 

Christine: I am. I’m pretty sure. And every time I go in there, I’m convinced they’re not gonna be in stock anymore, and they are. 

Em: [laughs] I bet. 

Christine: I’m like, “Any day now they’re gonna get rid of these.” And then I also brought this just, uh, in case. This is the 19 Crimes bottle of wine in case things go south. 

Em: Perf. 

Christine: And I brought a bottle opener or wine key. So, um– 

Em: Beautiful. 

Christine: I didn’t bring one. I just found one in my drawer ’cause of course there was one in my drawer. 

Em: You know, I got to say vitaminwater at, at their peak when they first came out, excuse me, they were incredible. Like a– the packaging alone – do you remember all the funny little quippy labels? 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: What does that one say? Did they get rid of them? 

Christine: [groans] Lame. It says “tropical energy for riding the workday wave. That’s rad, man.” I feel like they used to sa– 

Em: That’s literally the dumbest one I’ve ever heard. That’s– 

Christine: That’s– They used to be funnier. 

Em: They used to be like a paragraph, and they were all quippy. And one of them was like, “Like Jennifer Aniston, you g–“ 

Christine: Yes. [gasps] 

Em: Like they, they were like– It felt like a Cards Against Humanity or something like≠ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: They made no sense at the time. I loved them back then. 

Christine: And we were in high school, so we were like, “Oh, yeah, this is edgy.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. “So edgy.” Um– 

Christine: Now there’s Liquid Death which is like, “We’ll decapitate you and your dog,” and you’re– and we’re like, “Yay! That’s hilarious.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s like– I think the bar has just gotten really high. 

Em: It’s like the frog slowly boiling. It’s like the drinks have to get more fucked up. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: They have to get more aggressive and violent before we will drink them. 

Em: Well, speaking of aggressive and violent, um, I’m usually a firm loyalist to AriZona iced tea cans– 

Christine: I know that. 

Em: –and they’ve recently came out with a straight out of Brooklyn chocolate egg cream like basically– Which if you don’t know what an egg cream is, it’s basically, um, sel– It’s like a sparkling chocolate milk, which I’m not for. 

Christine: Not for me. 

Em: I can’t imagine that canned. 

Christine: Sorry. AriZona did this? 

Em: They did it. I– They– 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: “AriZona iced tea: made in Brooklyn.” That’s what they’re promoting right now: specifically made in Brooklyn chocolate egg creams in their cans. 

Christine: I don’t think so. 

Em: And I’m like, “I get that you could– you could– You have a lot of power since you’re only asking 99 cents of me, but I won’t do that.” 

Christine: I don’t think so. 

Em: I’ll do a lot of things for 99 cents. I won’t do that. 

Christine: But I won’t do that. 

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Em’s Story – Ellen Sadler, aka The Sleeping Girl of Turville

Em: Here’s a story for you, Christine, and I think you’ll like this one.

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, she sounds like– And I’m going off the title here because I did these notes like two weeks ago, three weeks ago. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: We’re gonna learn together. 

Christine: I know. Me too. I’m like, “This is gonna be an interesting one. We’re just like, ‘Wow, wow.’” 

Em: Couldn’t tell you a single thing that happens, but based off the title alone, I feel like we can both relate to her. This is the story of Ellen Sadler, aka the Sleeping Girl of Turville. 

Christine: [gasps] Is this– 

Em: The sleeping girl– 

Christine: Is this the chick that slept forever? 

Em: Honestly, maybe. 

[laughs] 

Em: I don’t totally remember anymore. Um, I'm imagining so. Why else you would be called the Sleeping Girl– 

Christine: I guess so, right? 

Em: –if you don’t sleep? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, so again we were supposed to do these notes a long time ago, and then something got in the way, and y– then you went to Egypt. It’s just– 

Christine: It was I. It was me. 

Em: It, it, it turned into us not doing the notes that I prepped a long time ago, so now we’re all gonna learn together. So. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: This is apparently in the 1850s. Travel back with me, will you? [makes a rewinding sound] 

Christine: Oo-oo! 

Em: Uh, and Ellen Sadler lived in Turville, which is in– 

Christine: Ah! I’m in an asylum. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Sorry, I didn't last very long. 

[laughs] 

Christine: I mean, I have a tattoo, and I’m not wearing pants, so I think I was bound to really get in trouble. 

Em: Okay. Um, [laughs] You really– Well done. Really got me there. 

Christine: I should probably not be drinking wine, so I’m gonna put that away for a bit. 

Em: No, no, no, no, no. Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back. 

Christine: Or maybe– We’ll see. 

Em: Um, Ellen Sadler lived in Turville, which is in Buckinghamshire [pronounced “buck-ing-ham-shy-er”], Buckinghamshire [pronounced “buck-ing-ham-shir”], Buckinghamshire [pronounced “buck-ing-Ham-shir”]. 

Christine: Buckin–Buckinghamshire [pronounced “buck-in-um-shir”]. 

Em: Buckin– I never know how the people in the UK say this– 

Christine: Buckinghamshire [pronounced “buck-in-um-shir”]. 

Em: –but Buckinghamshire [pronounced “buck-ing-ham-shir”]. 

Christine: Wer– Worcestershire [pronounced “woost-ersh-shir”]. Worcestershire [pronounced “woost-er-shir”]. 

Em: I’ll never know that one either. 

Christine: Just say that. 

Em: You said it exactly probably right, and I still won’t be able to repeat that to you. Worcestershire [pronounced “wor-chest-er-shire”]. I have no clue. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I’m so sorry. Anyway, um, in Turville, uh, the population is 400, which is double– triple my high school, so. It’s a– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Yes, for, for everybody’s, uh– so everyone can get an idea. It’s triple Em’s high school class. Does that help? 

Em: That’s literally how my brain handled this. So however you need to think of 400– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –um, you do that. 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: She was the 10th of 12 kids. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And her dad died when she was a baby, but her mom, Ann, got remarried to her stepdad named Thomas. So Thomas and Ann, Ellen lives with them. And in 1871, she’s 11 years old. The family is very poor, and so Ellen was sent to live with a family and work as their nursemaid/nanny. Which they’re two different words; I think they’re the same thing. 

Christine: At 11? Oy. 

Em: I know. 

Christine: Yeesh. 

Em: But also ele– uh, 1871, so I’m imagining just rules were different then. I don’t know. 

Christine: Right, it’s like in dog years she’s like actually like 40 or something. 

Em: [laughs] Um, during this time, she, uh– As a nursemaid/nanny during this time, she began suffering from headaches and intense drowsiness. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, she actually– It got so bad that she couldn’t do her job. So her boss, the family she worked for, they sent her back home, uh, to go have a doctor look at her. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: The doctor’s name was Dr. Hayman. And Hayman discovered that she had, quote, “glandular swellings” – okay? And an abscess on the back near the nape of her neck– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –or the, the bottom of her head. 

Christine: Oh, that does not sound good. 

Em: So yeah, to me that sounds like she– swollen glands, and then she has like a cyst of sorts. 

Christine: It’s like a tumor or something or like a growth. Yeah. 

Em: And obviously, in today’s world, we would say biopsy, but, um– 

Christine: For sure. 

Em: –instead they just ki-kinda took a whack at it, an– Not actually. 

Christine: A literal– Oh. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I was like, “Hey, that’s not gonna help.” [laughs] 

Em: Although I have seen those videos of people who have like a weird like buildup of something in their hand, and then people just whack it with a textbook until it goes away. 

Christine: Sorry? 

Em: And like– Have you not seen this? 

Christine: No. I mean, I’m gonna google it later. Don’t worry. 

Em: There’s like, there’s like, like some sort of like buildup like of liquid or pus or something in their hands, and it looks like a giant cyst. And then they just take– how– make their friend just like smack it as hard as they can with something until it flattens. 

Christine: It’s the fact that it’s a textbook that tells me this is like not something you should be doing if you’re maybe not a high schooler. 

Em: [laughs] It’s not in a hospital certainly. 

Christine: Right, yeah. I feel like this is d– 

Em: I feel like we’re ignoring a bigger problem if you’re just flattening a cyst. 

Christine: It implies that they’re juveniles because they have textbooks on hand. So yeah. 

Em: They also have T-TikTok, which is how I found out about it. So. 

Christine: There you go. That’s it. Yep. 

Em: Um, so anyway, he took a mental whack at it of like, “What could this be? 'Cause I’ve certainly never heard of a biopsy before, so what, what else is there?” Um, he decided that this is probably symptoms of a spinal disease. 

Christine: Oh… 

Em: And so he want to– her to go stay in a hospital for a while, but the family couldn’t afford it ’cause they’re not having a lot of money. Um, the friends– Oh, their friends end up pulling some strings and get her into a hospital for 18 weeks, which holy crap, that– 

Christine: 18 weeks? Oy. 

Em: The bill in the USA in 2025 would be out of control. Um– 

Christine: But think about how bored you would be back then. You don’t even have a TV, let alone like an iPad or TikTok. 

Em: I feel like books just came out at that point, you know what I mean? 

Christine: [laughs] I mean, just discovered books. 

Em: [laughs] It’s like you just look at the wall and just keep doing it. 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: Um, but they– So she was there for 18 whole weeks in the hospital, but they deemed her incurable, which I guess after 18 weeks if there’s nothing you can do, you know. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So they ended up sending her home without a diagnosis. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Two days after coming home though, Ellen still wasn’t feeling well. Later that day, she had either a or multiple seizures. 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: Um, I’m also unsure if it was her first time having one. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I didn’t see anything about that, but, um, she at least had one seizure that was pretty intense. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, after this, she– This is a quote: “She turned over on her left side, with her hand under her head, and the lower extremities drawn upwards.” Um, aka she was in a fetal position. 

Christine: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Em: Which I imagine after an intense seizure– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –you would also just want to ball up and cry, sleep, anything. And you get tired after sur– 

Christine: Yeah. I feel like that’s probably just human nature. 

Em: And you get tired after seizures too so. Um, so she kind of curled into the fetal position, and once she was in this position, she fell asleep. And then no matter what her family or Dr. Hayman tried, sh– they could not wake her up. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So remember she already– 

Christine: Nightmare, nightmare. 

Em: She already had her headache. She had intense drowsiness. Then she goes into a hospital. None of that gets cured. So she comes home still tired, has a seizure, and then falls asleep. So– 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: I would just assume she didn’t make it. 

Christine: Nightmare. Yeah. 

Em: I– Like– Oh, you had the seizure and then your– now your body is– 

Christine: I mean, now you’re unconscious and unable to be woken up. 

Em: Yeah. So, she was unable-able to be woken up, and she remained literally in the same position. It’s not like she was sleeping and kind of tossing and turning. She just stayed in the same fucking position. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Would you like to guess for how long? 

Christine: [sighs] A week? I don’t know. 

Em: Nine years. 

Christine: No! Nine years. 

Em: Nine years. 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: At first– 

Christine: A week? 

Em: Yeah, I know. I was like, “Oh, this is gonna be good.” Um, at first– 

Christine: Nine years? 

Em: Thank you. Yes. 

Christine: Get out of town. 

Em: Which, like, at that point, make it ten. Hit the decade mark. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: But, you know, I always disagree on that. You and I have different views of that because I feel like nine strikes harder than ten. 'Cause ten I just assume people are rounding up. 

Em: That’s fair. I guess I would s– 

Christine: It’s just my own mental games. 

Em: I– Whether or not she made it to ten, as her like family member, I’d still call it ten. I’d be like– 

Christine: No, you’d be like up to turn 20 or 30 by now. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] “You slept for five decades, but half my life.” Um, so yeah, nine years. And at first, everyone thought she was dead ’cause duh. Um, but I guess they kept waiting for her body to get cold, and it wasn’t getting cold– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –for them to react and like host a funeral or something. But she just kept just being warm, and she had the faintest but an existing pulse and an existing breath. 

Christine: What? So she’s basically like in a coma but without any sort of life support. 

Em: In today’s world, I think we would say home girl was in a fucking coma after a grand mal seizure. 

Christine: Jesus Christ. And with that growth on her neck, like, oh my god. 

Em: Like– Yeah. I think that would be a, a pretty easy diagnosis. 

Christine: This is like nightmare, nightmare, nightmare. 

Em: So, let’s put that out there now that like we’re aware of what this is, but back in the day, this was [in dramatic voice] spooky, right? [normal voice] And it’s like no, she– 

Christine: Yeah. It’s like a me-medical marvel, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: –needed a fucking doctor. Um. 

Christine: It’s like Guinness Book of Worlds Records. Like, let’s put sparkles on it and be like, “Look how crazy this is.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, and it’s like, “Aaah!” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, it did not take long for people to find out about her somehow being alive. Like I guess this whole town there’s only 400 people, but maybe she was the first coma. And they just didn’t know these existed because books just came out, remember? So um. 

Christine: Well, yeah. And typically, like if you go into a c– [laughs] Books just came out, and it’s just the Bible, so it’s like, what the fuck? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: They’re like, “Well, Jesus and Lazarus and all that, but like beyond that, we’re not really sure what’s going on.” Um, I do feel like probably even if you did know about comas, you probably wouldn’t survive very long. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So I imagine nine years like that’s– Yeah, that must be something different in their mind. 

Em: And also nine years of every day going, “Any day now.” Like, “Is she still here?” 

Christine: [sighs] Ch– Having to check her pulse every day to be like, “Is my baby still alive?” This is a n-nightmare. 

Em: I know. I can’t even imagine– I’m telling this to a mother. I can’t imagine like Leona just falling asleep and never waking up, but she’s like still with us. But is she? You know what I mean? 

Christine: Is she eating ? What’s happening? I’m like so– I have so many questions that I’m sure you’re gonna answer. 

Em: Good question. I’m gonna answer some of them, but I have my own questions ’cause I’m like, “What the hell?” Okay, so maybe I’m gonna answer them ’cause I did these notes so long ago. Uh, it did no– 

Christine: Yeah, you’re like, “I’ve got the same questions, Christine. Let’s find out together.” 

Em: [laughs] And it may– just might have answers. And by “just might,” I mean, really I might, but I might not. Um– 

Christine: And if you don’t, Jack will cut this out, and no one will ever hear it. 

Em: That’s right. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: It did not take long for people to find out about this, quote, “medical marvel.” Um, she gained global attention with all sorts of people and doctors coming in to see her sleeping. Even literally the prince of Wales, who would one day be King Edward, uh, the seventh. 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: Uh, he came and laid hands on her– 

Christine: Ew. 

Em: –to heal her. I know. Um, papers, they– Oh, so more than books were around. Papers called Ellen’s situation “one of the most incredible inexplicable physiological phenomenon that has ever been encountered.” 

Christine: Extra, extra! 

Em: Yeah. “Hear ye, hear ye.” 

Christine: You just know they have like exclamation points in the headlines and shit. 

Em: Yeah. Well, [high-pitched Cockney British accent] “Oi mister! Get this paper.” 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: “This little girl, she’s just sleeping and sleeping and sleeping. Luckiest girl alive.” [normal voice] I don’t know. 

Christine: Whoa! Who’s that? I want him to come back more often. 

Em: [laughs] I think that was also Juniper in the Smalls ads. Um, I’m– 

[laughs] 

Christine: No wonder I didn’t recognize it. I was like, “Who’s this gentleman?” 

Em: [unintelligible] Your cat just came over here to tell me all about something. 

Christine: Okay, Nichole just answered. She said, “My butt portal?” So like kind of. 

Em: That’s a, that’s a “would they, won’t they” kind of answer. 

Christine: [laughs] Wait! It all makes sense. Our portals are connected. Okay, this is getting in a– 

Em: That’s human centipede if your butts are connected. 

Christine: I’m so sorry. I regret saying any of that. Um. 

Em: Keep your butt away from my butt. I’m so scared over here. 

Christine: I’m gonna say that her butt portal– Hold on. 

Em: Cloned itself. 

Christine: Yeah, it has– it’s a communicable disease now. I’ve gotten it too. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s commun– It’s contagious. 

Em: I can’t wait to hear her response to what happened. 

Christine: I did put pressure on. I said, “Em and I are recording, and I have a qu– pop quiz for the psychic.” So I feel like I put a lot of pressure. So she definitely just said, “My portal.” And then an– a laughing emoji, and I said, “It’s contagious. It fell out of my pants.” And we’ll see what happens. Anyway. 

Em: [laughs] It’s like, “My butt, actually. My butt.” 

Christine: “Actually, my portal.” 

Em: Um, your immortal portal, some might say. 

Christine: You know what? That’s hot. 

Em: Thank you. Can we kiss now? Okay. 

Christine: Mwah! 

Em: It did, it did not take long for people to find out. Literally, the prince of Wales even came to do– to come see her. Uh, people came in with all sorts of suggestions on how to wake her up. 

Christine: I’m sure they did. 

Em: They did the classics, trying to sneak pins in, so they could poke her when they viewed her. 

Christine: Fucking sick. What’s she like a museum exhibit, a zoo? 

Em: I mean, she’s a living– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: I, I mean, not to be like– not to objectify a person, but this is a living human science experiment at this point for them, I imagine. 

Christine: Yeah, they’re– I mean, they’re treating it like one for sure. Yeah. 

Em: They’re just like, “Who– What, what is this about?” I mean, I imagine a world where you’d never heard of a coma and all of a sudden this is happening, you would have to go see this. 

Christine: It’s like Sleeping Beauty but in real life. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. I wonder if she was the inspo. 

Christine: Maybe. 

Em: Maybe. 

Christine: Although I think that came out way longer– way before. 

Em: 1871? Oh, she– 

Christine: Yeah, isn’t it like a Grimm’s fairy tale thing? 

Em: Oh, I don’t know. Anyway, um, so people tried to wake her up in all sorts of ways. I, I dare– don’t even want to think about what people– if people were touching her. I don’t even wanna know. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: Uh, but Ellen became a tourist attraction in town– 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: –and her mother welcomed people to view her. However, it was in hopes that somebody could cure her and wake her up. So, I– 

Christine: Did they charge? 

Em: I– We’ll find out. I don’t know. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Oh, wait. Here’s your answer. Some people got really weird with it, and they would ask Ann, after viewing Ellen’s body, if they could have strands of her hair as souvenirs. 

Christine: Goodbye. 

Em: Um, so they could bring it back to their family and say, “I saw essentially Sleeping Beauty.” 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: Ann was fine with it for a while until so many people wanted strands that Ellen was going fucking bald. 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: W– Imagine waking up, and now you’re nine years older and have no hair. I’m sure it grew back by then. People also started leaving money donations to help the family. So I– 

Christine: Okay, well, that’s nice. 

Em: That’s nice. But I also don’t know if that’s like their workaround of like– charging her– or being charged. Like, you know, if they’re like, “We, we take ‘donations.’” 

Christine: Give what you can kinda thing. 

Em: Yeah. But maybe also I’m like just being like negative, and everyone was just very generous. Um, but people started leaving money for the family, which, in hindsight, was a considerable amount of money, um, probably enough that they could live off of it. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: In which case, you wonder how much they were requesting of that. 

Christine: Well, and they’ve got 12 kids. 

Em: Yeah. And they were poor, and now they’ve got like– Basically they’ve got a– but the– the equivalent of having someone on like life support. I don’t know. 

Christine: Well, the prince of Wales shows up, he better fucking make a donation. You know what I mean? If he’s gonna be like trying his own weird test of laying his hands on her. 

Em: You know, he tipped poorly for sure. He was– 

Christine: I’m sure he did. I don’t doubt that for a second. 

Em: He was like, “I’ll give you a hug. I’ll sign something.” 

Christine: Yuck. No one asked for that. 

Em: Uh, so people left money donations. However, they were quite adamant that they were never asking people for donations. People were just doing it. They were saying that quite a lot. 

Christine: Oh, okay. Okay. 

Em: At one point, the local government got involved to make sure that Ellen was actually getting proper medical attention and nourishment and she wasn’t being exploited and kept under in some way for money. 

Christine: Mm. Right, right, right, right, right. 

Em: Because a few years before this, there was a girl in the area named Sarah who allegedly refused to eat, uh, but was surviving despite not eating. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And it turned out that she was actually a, a victim of what is now Munchausen by proxy. 

Christine: Ooh, yeah. 

Em: And she died at the hands of her parents who were pretty much using her as a circus attraction. 

Christine: Just abusing her to ma– to make money. Yeah. Oh my god. 

Em: Which like couldn’t you just feed her and then lie to people and say like, “Look, she’s not eating.” It’s like– 

Christine: You could, but that’s not the mental illness part unfortunately. 

Em: Sure. And it’s still fucked up, but it’s like at least– 

Christine: Right. No, I know. Yeah. 

Em: So because of what happened to Sarah, the local government was like, “We’re just checking that she’s not another Sarah–“ 

Christine: Probably smart. 

Em: “–and you’re not slowly killing your kid for money.” But Ann was feeding Ellen multiple times a day. However, feeding someone who is unconscious and won’t move is hard to do. 

Christine: I imagine. 

Em: So Ann would basically give Ellen a liquid diet by pouring fluids into her mouth– 

Christine: [groaning] Aw. 

Em: –probably through a funnel or, or it was like a, like a dropper, like an eye dropper. 

Christine: A dropper. 

Em: Um, and it was often– These were the things that she was feeding her: milk, tea, gruel, or port wine. 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: Um, yeah. But eventually– 

Christine: Okay. [laughs] You know, I’m just thinking ’cause like I have to do liquid diets before I go get a colonoscopy. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. 

Christine: And they say nothing red, and I’m always like– 'Cause you know when they do the test– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –they don’t want– I’m like, “What about–?” They’re– You know, ’cause red wine– 

Em: What about wine? 

Christine: Yeah, what about– w– chardonnay? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And they said, “It’s not recommended,” and I said, “Well, that leaves a little wiggle room, huh?” 

Em: Yeah. So y– It’s not a full no. 

Christine: It’s a liquid, and it’s not red. 

Em: It’s not red. If you tell me if I shouldn’t drink Chardonnay colored things right now or else, I’ll tell you that. 

Christine: That’s right. Or else. You know what else is that color? Water. [laughs] 

Em: Boom. 

Christine: It’s like not but sort of. 

Em: It’s, it’s with a tint. A tint of water color. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Uh, anyway, so her mom is feeding her basically with an eye dropper– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –liquid whenever she can. Although also remember she’s in the fetal position on her side. Like I ima– Is she just holding her daughter’s neck up? 

Christine: I wonder if they roll her. I mean, they would have to probably move her– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –so, because of bed sores and all that, you know. 

Em: That’s what I’m thinking, but I don’t think we get an answer– like information on that. But– 

Christine: Well, you keep finding out that we do. So, maybe we do. 

Em: I’ll be amazed with you. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, so her mom keeps feeding her, but eventually because she’s not using her mouth, Ellen’s jaw locks shut from, from not moving for years. 

Christine: [gasps] Right, it like atrophies, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: So Ann then had to feed, uh, Ellen by using– Apparently, they had like a toy, like a little kid teapot with a small enough spout to pour– 

Christine: Oh my god, that’s so sad. 

Em: Ellen, I guess, had um– One of her teeth had a chip in it– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –in her– in one of her front teeth. And so when her jaw locked shut, it was almost like they were grateful that she had this hole– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –because there was a chip in her tooth that they would use this toy teapot and pour it through the hole in her tooth. 

Christine: Oh my gosh. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: This poor mother too. Like– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: –on top of having already 12 children and, and being impoverished, and now you’re trying to– Oh my gosh, this is horrifying. 

Em: I can’t imagine handling this alone, let alone 11 other children that need me. Jesus. 

Christine: [sighs] Seriously. 

Em: No wonder at 11 they’re going to get jobs. She’s like, “I can’t do this.” Like sh– [laughs] 

Christine: Well, and then I– I remember reacting, and then I was like, “Wait, I just was saying that like in ancient Egypt, that was the same protocol.” Like you’re with your mom for ten years, and then you kind of go out and start working. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. At least train under someone or someone else takes responsibility. Yeah. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: So, uh, because of this liquid diet that she was on, where hopefully Ellen is swallowing or else it’s just dripping down her I guess, her weight– 

Christine: I guess she probably can’t swallow. It probably is just going down. 

Em: Yeah. Um, because of this, her weight plummets. 

Christine: [groans] 

Em: So, um– Plus with only minimal liquid as her whole diet, her bowels essentially stop working over time. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: So, she literally had very little solid waste for years. 

Christine: [gasps] [sighs] 

Em: –which I can’t imagine. Then you wake up, and you have to like retrain yourself to use the bathroom. Um– 

Christine: You’d have to retrain yourself to eat. Your digestive system probably shuts down. Like oof. 

Em: Yeah. And Ann said that every few days, um– 'Cause I’m sure she was, she was interviewed about like how does she go to the bathroom? And if she’s just lying there and you’re not moving her for nine years, is that nine years of like pee– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –that’s just coming out of her and she’s just sitting in it? Um, but I guess a lot of her body shut down. Uh, but also every few days, apparently just a large amount of pee would essentially fall out of her, which I’m guessing her bladder just would get too full– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and it would just kind of fall out. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Which like I wonder if she was also experiencing like insane UTIs. 

Christine: That’s so sad. Yeah. 

Em: And UTIs can like make you septic, I think. So like– 

Christine: Really sick. Really sick. 

Em: So, no wonder she’s out and ha– 

Christine: Oh, this is horrible. 

Em: Certainly a kidney infection. 

Christine: There’s no antibiotics. Yeah, exactly. 

Em: A kidney infection, kidney stones. 

Christine: Like she’s not getting antibiotics obviously. 

Em: Um, throughout the years, she remained unmoved the whole time. 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: And this is how reporters described how she looked. Okay? So she looked very emaciated and weak-looking with no muscle tone. All of her skin was very soft. Her pulse seemed faint, but from what they could hear or what they could feel, it was a very fast pulse. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, “She had some color in her cheeks and lips, but not so pale that she looked dead.” That’s a quote. Um, the– her hair was matted because Ann was too afraid to brush it and hurt her neck. So, just nine years of– 

Christine: Sad. 

Em: –of her hair matting, um, ’cause that was after she made people stop taking strands of it. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I guess it grew back, and now it’s matted. Um, and another quote is that “The eyes are calmly closed as though in heavy sleep. I ventured to raise one of the lids and touch the eye beneath, but there was not even a quivering of the eyelash.” So she’s– 

Christine: Don’t fucking touch her eye, you fucking weirdo. 

Em: I think it was to see if she’d react if she’s faking it. But she– 

Christine: I don’t care. 

Em: I know. 

Christine: Don’t stick your dirty finger in her eye. That’s literally so fucked up. 

Em: So– But she– And she wasn’t reacting is what they discovered, I guess. Um, her body was warm, but her arms, legs, and feet seemed to have lost circulation because they were ice cold and required hot packs. 

Christine: [sighs] Oh gosh. 

Em: So, that way her arms could– or her arms were fine, but everything else required hot packs. But her actual like middle body was still warm. And had it been cold like everything else, it would have assumed she wasn’t with us. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Um, all of her faculties, her fingers and toes, they moved totally fine. Nothing was in rigor. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and this is how life was for a long time, I guess. Until 1880, nine years later, and 21-year-old Ellen– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –wakes up from the deepest nap of her life. 

Christine: Shut the fuck up. 

Em: You know that feeling of like, [groaning] “What year is it?” when you wake up from a nap? [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. “Where am I?” Yeah. 

Em: And it’s like, “Girl, it’s a decade later.” 

Christine: For sure. 

Em: Um, so sadly, Ellen woke up and didn’t seem to know anything had happened or that any time had passed. 

Christine: [gasps] Sweetheart. 

Em: So, she’s a fucking 9-year-old in a 21-year-old body. 

Christine: Oh, sweetheart. I don’t know if it’s better or worse ’cause if she’s like, “I’ve been trapped in there for nine years like conscious,” that could be worse, I guess. 

Em: Yeah. Sorry, 11-year-old in a 21-year-old body. But yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: But I, I agree. Um, I mean, I can’t imagine mentally being– what, a sixth grader and waking up as a woman? I mean, that’s like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And she’s incredibly frail. 

Christine: Although her body probably hadn’t progressed through normal like puberty, right? 

Em: That’s a good point. 

Christine: I mean, I imagine it’s not– Yeah. 

Em: That’s a great point. Um, she was unable to sit up at first. She was incredibly frail. Um, probably very scared. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And of course, at 11 and something scary happens and you look different all of a sudden and everyone around you looks older, she probably wanted her mom. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: And so when she asked her sisters for her mom, her mom had passed away five months earlier. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Five months earlier. So she just had to wake up and find out that she just missed her. 

Christine: Oh, I was so– I was already worried that she was not gonna recognize her mom, but it was that her mom didn’t even– Oh no. 

Em: So her mom never found out that she woke up either. 

Christine: That’s so sad. 

Em: Dr. Hayman stayed in touch with her all these years– stayed in touch with her after the fact, too. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And even had a feeling that she– Before she woke up, he had a feeling that she was going to wake up soon because he visited her three weeks before, um, and remembers asking her to squeeze his hand apparently for like the thousandth time that he’s done this in nine years. And it was the first time she that, that she’d squeezed his hand. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So he– 

Christine: So she was like coming to. 

Em: She was becoming sentient. Yeah. 

Christine: But slowly, like three weeks before she actually woke up. Oh my god. 

Em: Yeah. Well, I guess in– with 1871 medicine, like I guess if– [chuckles] if you’re coming back at all, it’s a miracle. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Um, so Ellen physically healed surprisingly well and surprisingly quickly. Um, the only thing that really was a long-term side effect was that she had bad eyesight– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –which like we don’t even know if that’s what it came from. Um, but I guess also if your eyes were closed for fucking nine years– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –maybe you just can’t handle light well. 

Christine: Well, and it’s– I imagine parts of your body just shut down ’cause you’re not getting much energy and nutrients. 

Em: Yeah, or your optic nerves just don’t move the right way or something. I don’t know. Uh, but she also moved slower than other people. I think her muscles were just always a little stiff after that. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But she was fine in every other way. And a few years later, Ellen ended up marrying and having several kids. And she later passed away in her 50s, which is interesting. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But I don’t know if that’s like because of the time. I don’t know– What’s the age– I don’t know what the life expectancy was in 1871. 

Christine: Well, it’s confusing ’cause I think when you say average, it usually count– accounts for all the infant deaths– 

Em: Mm. Sure. 

Christine: –and so it really skews the number. 

Em: Brings it down. 

Christine: So I’m not sure entirely what the actual– But I think that’s not– I think 50s is probably not unusual for back– like not super unusual. 

Em: Okay, sure. Fair. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: Um, and as for what could have caused her sleeping, doctors never figured it out while she was alive. Um, but of course, sleeping disorders weren’t even on the radar yet. Um, maybe she was in a coma and somehow survived without modern medicine. And the biggest thing we know is that she always complained of being drowsy, had trouble staying awake, and then had a seizure on top of having headaches. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So our best guess these days when people look back on her case, they assume she has had severe narcolepsy, and maybe she also suffered from epilepsy and combined they were just a– they– one just made the other worse. 

Christine: So they think it was like a coma? That it just sent her into a coma? Or not even a– 

Em: I, I, I think the argument is split between either she had a, a coma that was brought on– 

Christine: Oh, I see. 

Em: –by a, a grand mal seizure, or she had epilepsy and also incredible narcolepsy, and together they just like made a, a wacky combo and just kept her asleep. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, I think she was in a coma. I think she’s had a coma from being in, um– 

Christine: Yeah. I mean, that’s remarkable. Like today, people can’t– don’t survive comas necessarily, right? And like no life support, no like, um, feeding tube. I mean, no catheter. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I just– Amazing. No antibiotics. 

Em: Yeah. I– It, it feels like she was more– I guess the people argue that it might just be severe narcolepsy because how else could she have survived? 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: Without things like IVs and drips and modern medicine. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Um, but her symptoms feel more like a coma. It just feels harder to believe that she could survive that on her own and just wake up one day. 

Christine: Yeah. But I mean either one like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Without getting food and moving and– I mean, it’s shocking she survived either way. 

Em: Yeah. And, and the other, uh, heavily suspected theory is that she was just another case of Munchausen by proxy and that– 

Christine: Really? 

Em: Um, well, remember it’s thought that they were getting a lot of donation money and maybe Ann was just kind of drugging or subtly poisoning her to keep her asleep. So that way they could get the donation money, which the, the family swore that they never asked for any money, but it’s a big theory of like, “Well, she was always just barely alive, and her mom was always by her side.” Um, what I didn’t say earlier is that the amount of money that they were getting daily was like incredible compared to what everyone else was getting in the area. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And Ann also refused to let, uh, anyone, including doctors, be alone with her without being in the room. 

Christine: I just realized something as well, which you probably will touch on, but she did wake up after her mother passed. 

Em: Yep. So she refused, uh, Ellen being researched by nearby hospitals who, uh, wanted to help her. 

Christine: And like their whole thing was, “Oh, we only want people to come see her so– to help her,” and– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, that goes against that, for sure. 

Em: Like to stay like– stay in the one room that she can control. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: She also refused treatment for Ellen, um, when some doctors wanted to try– crazy now, but back then it was normal to try electroshock therapy. Um, she said no, which– 

Christine: It’s not even that crazy now. 

Em: A-at this point, I don’t even know if I blame her or not for saying no to that ’cause that– I can’t imagine a world where I’d be fine with that, but I wasn’t living in that time. Um, another reason people think that she could have been drugged or poisoned, as you just said, is because she was asleep until Ann died and shortly after that she woke up. 

Christine: Okay. Yeah. So we were gonna get there. Good. 

Em: And some say maybe Ellen was also in on it and was walking around when people weren’t home. 

Christine: I mean, that’s what I hope, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like that’s what I hope because at least as fucked up as that is at least it means like maybe she had a quality of life, but like– Oof. 

Em: Like your– The best hope is that she had a great middle of the night life quality. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And then her mom would say something like, “Oh, since you’re staying up late, like let’s give you some medicine so you fall asleep.” And then just kind of kept putting her to sleep. And like she– 

Christine: “The prince of Wales will be here in a few short hours.” Oh my god. 

Em: [chuckles] Wouldn’t that be crazy if that was the story that was going on? And she actually had no awareness that when she was asleep, she was this like attraction? And she just thought her mom was giving her like basically melatonin, and she’d wake up and had no idea this was going on. I mean, maybe that– I don’t know how– I don’t know how many people– 

Christine: I wish melatonin worked that fucking well that you could put a pin under my fingernail– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –and rip my hair out and then I won’t wake up, but I really don’t think so. 

Em: Yeah, you would think she would wake up every now and then and wonder like why her hair’s missing. 

Christine: Especially if people are fucking poking her and touching her eyeball and shit. 

Em: Yeah, I think she didn’t know. I think, I think her mom– I think either she was– 

Christine: I don’t think she was conscious. 

Em: I think she was either in a coma or her mom was drugging her. It w– 

Christine: Those feel like the most reasonable– unfortunately reasonable options. 

Em: Yeah. And, and to your credit when you kept saying like, “How would you survive a coma for that long?” Like that makes me think even more like you could survive– 

Christine: Like nowadays, you know, even. 

Em: –you could survive your mom poisoning you if she knew your dosage, I guess. 

Christine: But also people have survived crazy shit, so it’s like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –maybe this really was just like a miraculous thing. I don’t know. I don’t want to like put all– because I don’t know enough to say. Did they have any proof though about the mother? Or is that all just like, you know–? 

Em: It’s just all a guess. 'Cause I mean it’s so wild. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, but other reasons people think Ellen might have been in on it is because she never had bed sores, despite them saying they never moved her for nine years. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and it sounds like she was always relatively clean from urine, feces, blood, uh, again without being moved for nine years– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –which maybe her body shut down beforehand, but like imagine having like your period and not moving for nine years. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Like there’s gonna be– 

Christine: I mean, I don’t– But again, I don’t think she went through puberty probably, at least a normal way, if she was only 11. 

Em: Right. That’s what I’m saying. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I think her body probably shut down before that happened. 

Christine: Oh, I see what you’re saying. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: But, um, her– Oh, yeah. Urine and feces – like there would be signs of like maybe it being– not being so clean. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, maybe it’s because she was emaciated, but, um– What was I gonna say? At the time that they– that this family was alive, in the census, she should have been listed as, quote, “an invalid” in the house, and she wasn’t. So that’s another reason that maybe she was awake and walking around. 

Christine: Was she listed as anything? 

Em: I think she was just listed as just a daughter– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –but at the time she would have been listed as like– an, an invalid is the word. 

Christine: Right. Right, right, right, right. 

Em: Um, it may be rumors, uh, that they were hearing in town, but some swore at night they would see a girl sitting by the window. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And sh– then again– 

Christine: [chuckles] How many of them are there in that house? Like [laughs]. 

Em: There was fucking 12 kids. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So it could have been any girl. 

Christine: I’m like, “Gasp! Oh.” [laughs] 

Em: I think a lot of people were saying, “She’s up and at ‘em.” But people could also be saying, “Oh, she’s dead, and her ghost is walking around.” 

Christine: Fair point. 

Em: So that could be twisted into a million things. Also, when feeding her fluids, she somehow didn’t drown if her throat wasn’t swallowing, and like they didn’t know any like massage techniques to help that liquid get down. 

Christine: You could probably do drip, drip feeding. 

Em: I guess so. I don’t know enough about it, but that was a– an interesting point. It’s like is she– at some point did she ever swallow or d– How’d they figure out how to feed her? 

Christine: I don’t think you c– Yeah, I don’t think you can swallow in that– I mean, I don’t know. What do I know? What the fuck do I know? 

Em: I, I also don’t know. 

Christine: Nothing. 

Em: Uh, but the, the last reasoning that she might have been involved in this is because she recovered a little too quickly– like without her body having atrophied. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Despite all this though, Dr. Hayman at least swears he believes that she was either paralyzed or unconscious the whole time. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And he also believes that the family, um, never moved her from that one pos– position. He believes they were telling the truth. When Ann died, the rest of the fam– the family was asked about their involvement with Ellen, um, and if their mother could have been faking, and the stepdad got weirdly shady about it. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, he said– 

Christine: Thomas? 

Em: Thomas, yeah. He– Anytime they were like, “Could your wife have been causing this?”, he pretty much always just said, “I don’t know nothing. I don’t know nothing. I, I’m alway s–“ 

Christine: He’s like, “What’s that over there?” [laughs] 

Em: He pretty much– His ex– His excuse every time was, “I was always at work. I don’t know.” Um– 

Christine: That’s a– Yeah. I mean, that’s weird. You should at least be like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –“Um, obviously not. That’s really insane.” 

Em: Yeah, you’d be like, “She literally spends every waking second taking care of her.” 

Christine: “That’s so fucked up.” 

Em: Like, “Fuck you.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, even though it was in the 1870s, Ellen and her family’s house still stands. It has been nicknamed as Sleepy Cottage. 

Christine: Oh my god. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] And– 

Christine: How charming. 

Em: How charming. And fun fact, Sleepy Cottage was Tom’s house in the movie Goodnight Mister Tom. Um– 

Christine: What the hell is that? 

Em: It’s a movie. And also– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: it was used in the– 

Christine: Thanks. 

Em: [laughs] It was also used– 

Christine: Fun fact. 

Em: –in the BBC sitcom The Vicar of Dibley. So it’s– 

Christine: Stop acting like these are things I’m supposed to know. And don’t tell me it’s a TV show ’cause I already figured that out. 

Em: [laughs] I will tell you, as an American who’s never heard of The Vicar of Dibley, it sounds like something AI created. 

Christine: Okay, wait, listen. There is a bit on My Brother, My Brother, and Me, I think they only did it like one time where Justin brought all these titles of British BBC or like British shows and then made his brothers guess which ones were real and which ones he made up. 

Em: That’s great. 

Christine: And they were like– They got them like all wrong, I think. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: 'Cause it’s like how could any of this be real? The dribbly dibbly– 

Em: The Vicar of Dibley. 

Christine: –whatever the fuck like it’s– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And then he would read the description, and it would be like even more insane. And it would be like, “That can’t be real.” Nope. It’s been running for 32 years on the BBC. [laughs] 

Em: Incredible. Well, my last bullet point– 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: –which apparently I wrote– I certainly– I think it’s very silly. I’m, I’m so funny. Um– 

Christine: You are. 

Em: I wrote in parentheses at the very bottom: “Imagine as a follower of this story for a decade, the day you hear she woke up. The town crier would have been very busy that day.” 

Christine: You have been channeling him this whole episode, and now is your time to shine. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Hear ye, hear ye.” No, what do you say? “Extra, extra.” 

Em: [in British Cockney accent] “Oi, mista!” I don’t know– [laughs] 

Christine: “Oi, mista! For a wooden nickel.” 

Em: But no– I don’t know who I would be more excited to be if I got to be reincarnated in a, in a body in that location the day that everyone found out. Do I want to be someone who’s been following her case, as if it’s like the closest thing to pop culture I have, finding out she woke up? Or do I want to be the town crier that gets to tell everyone? 

Christine: Now that– You– We want to be that and know– We know– 

Em: No questions asked? 

Christine: We both– We want to be that. Yes. There’s no question. 

Em: Imagine– You kn– Like I don’t know what the 1870s– 

Christine: What do you think we’re doing right now? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: We’re literally town “criering” stories that happened a hundred some years ago. 

Em: The 1870s equivalent of going, “Holy shit!” Like I can’t– 

Christine: Yeah. Like Tiger Beat breaking news. 

Em: I– 

Christine: I don’t know where you would even post, post that. 

Em: Who do you run to first? Do you go to the pub, the tavern, the square? Where do you go? The carriage– the carriage house? 

Christine: For sure the pub, right? The tavern. The pub and tavern. They’re gonna give you the best reaction, right? I would imagine ’cause they’re there for some socializing and some– 

Em: And there– Sorry. There was no PR marketing team back then like I– Like the town crier had to sit with himself and himself alone and be like, “How am I gonna play this?” Like– 

Christine: “Let’s strategize this.” 

Em: “Do I create an event, and I tell everyone at once so I get the loudest gasps? Or do I just– Every person I stumble upon I’m just screaming it frenetically at them?“ 

Christine: Yeah. “And do I start like low bar? Like tell my dad and mom? And they’re gonna be like, ‘I don’t care.’” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Or do I go and like start really big and be like, ‘Holy shit, everybody! Gather around,’” you know. 

Em: “Or do I save it and like– and I go, ‘I know something you don’t know,’ but, but–“ 

Christine: For the perfect moment. 

Em: “O-One day you’ll, you’ll be deserving of this information.” I don’t know. I don’t know. That’s so much power. 

Christine: God, it’s a lot of responsibility. 

Em: So much power. 

Christine: I love how we both said power and responsibility in the same moment. Wow. 

Em: What are we, fucking Spiderman? Anyway, this is, um, Ellen Sadler and the Sleeping Girl of Turville– aka the Sleeping Girl of Turville. 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: The end. 

Christine: It’s like one of those stories that I didn’t expect to be on the verge of a true crime. Um, potentially. 

Em: A– You know, it’s, uh, been on my list for a while as like a “unsolved mystery,” and it’s like, “I pretty– I’m sure that’s a solved mystery.” 

Christine: We might not even ever solve that ’cause it’s probably like it’s one of these two things– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –and like there’s probably no way to know which unfortunately. But maybe– 

Em: There’s almost no reason to even try to figure out what happened– 

Christine: And– 

Em: –because we all kind of know enough about what happened. 

Christine: I do feel like a little bit bad. [begins opening wine bottle] Don’t mind me. I– 

Em: Couldn’t if I tried. 

Christine: [laughs] I do feel a little bit– Like I don’t want to just shit on the mom ’cause it’s like I don’t know, you know? I don’t have any proof. I don’t want to be like, “Well, um– 

Em: Sure 

Christine: “–you know, uh–“ What do you call– Circumstantial evidence. And also like there are other people in the house, right? Like– 

Em: That's a good point. 

Christine: What if the fucking stepdad was involved or something? I don’t know. 

Em: It– Honestly, could have been the stepdad. I mean, he was acting shady when he got asked about it. He’s like, “I, I’m at work all the time.” 

Christine: Or like she has a– And she’s like the alm– second youngest, right? So, like, who knows? I’m not– I mean, I’m not blaming them either. 

Em: That’s a good point. 

Christine: I’m just saying like, you know, could have been a lot of– number of people involved, or could have been just been a m– 

Em: Could have been fucking– 

Christine: –fucking Guinness Book of World Records situation. 

Em: Could have been the doctor. He was there– 

Christine: Could have been the doctor. 

Em: I don’t know. I– Maybe not, but I– It could be anyone. You’re right. Like we don’t– We truly don’t know. But either someone was responsible or it was like a coma– 

Christine: Or no one was responsible. [laughs] 

Em: Or, or no one. It was– or god. [laughs] Um, so that’s it. That’s all I got for you. 

Christine: [sighs] Wow. Good job, Em. What a fucking tale. 

Em: What type of, uh, red is that? 

Christine: Thank you so much for asking. Um, it’s a– 

Em: It’s a cab? 

Christine: –19 Crimes cab. It is. How’d you know that? 

Em: I had a feeling. I just can smell it on you. 

Christine: It’s a firm and full– Good thing that it’s a firm and full with a rich mouth feel. 

Em: I love a rich mouth feel. 

Christine: Aromatics of dark berries, violets, and vanilla, so I’m thinking it smells pretty good. 

Em: Huh. Rich mouth feel. I don’t know– Here’s a question for you: what does savory mean to you? What’s the definition of savory? 

Christine: To me, it means– I mean, I’m sure I’m probably not even correct, but to me, savory means just not a sweet dish, not a, not a dessert, right? 

Em: I think I don’t know what savory means. 

Christine: Oh. [laughs] 

Em: And, and no matter who explains it to me, I can’t figure it out. 

Christine: Okay. Savory versus sweet. Those are the two. So like– 

Em: No, but then there’s salty. 

Christine: No, no, no. But that’s savory. Like– 

Em: Salty is savory. 

Christine: Yeah. So I think anything that’s not like a sweet treat is savory. 

Em: 'Cause, ’cause here’s the thing. There are so many times where I say in front of Allison– Like we’re eating something, and it tastes so good. I’m like, “Oh, it’s so savory.” She’s like, “This literally isn’t savory.” 

Christine: That’s like the opposite. Yeah. Okay. So of– Savory means “of food– (of food) belonging to the category that is salty or spicy rather than sweet.” So, it’s like any spice or, or, uh, saltiness that’s not sugar basically. 

Em: Hm, interesting. I think in my mind savory and hearty are the same thing. 

Christine: Ah. Or rich. 

Em: And so I– Or rich. 

Christine: 'Cause I feel like a crème brûlée could be like a rich– but it’s not savory. 

Em: 'Cause like you want to savor it. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: You know what I mean? It’s a m– 

Christine: I know. It’s kind of a misleading term. 

Em: But so– Like I think like I had like a chicken pot pie in front of Allison. I was like, “Oh, it’s so savory.” And she’s like, “That’s– It’s not.” [laughs] 

Christine: No, that is. That is savory. 

Em: Is it? Well, fuck you, Allison. 

Christine: If you had a, if you had a key lime pie, that’s not savory. 

Em: Uh-huh. No, I wouldn’t– 

Christine: 'Cause that’s a dessert. 

Em: I wouldn’t call that savory. 

Christine: No, it’s basically just a “prover– prover–“ [laughs] It’s basically a flavor profile that’s not dessert. 

Em: The second Allison hears this, I’m gonna, I’m gonna hear it. I’m gonna hear– 

Christine: What does she think it means? 

Em: I don’t know. I don’t know. That’s why I can’t figure it out. Every time she says it, I’m then confused about– I don’t even know what she’s saying so I can redefine it for my own head. 

Christine: Mm. Well, it also has– 

Em: But every time I s– 

Christine: –a, a culinary overlap with umami. So if that helps. 

Em: That’s what she says. She says umami, and I don’t know what that is either. 

Christine: That one is a little beyond my comprehension. 

Em: Okay. Well, it means savory, idiot. 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. Well, it says it overlaps, idiot, so don’t even start. 

Em: Truly, in my mind, I think s– I just think savory just means like a chicken pot pie and kind of nothing else. But it’s like– [laughs] 

Christine: No, I mean, it does– A savory– Oh, but you’re saying like instead of like a rich thing, like a– You’re saying it like a hearty thing. 

Em: Like a– Like– Yeah, I think it’s like hearty carbs, like fall autumnal meals, fill your tummy. 

Christine: I mean, you’re not wrong. It’s not the only thing that it means, but it is in the category. 

Em: I’ll never understand. It’s kind of similar to wonton or wanton or whatever it is. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I still don’t totally– I don’t really wanna know at this point what the difference is. I just know that I’m wrong, and I’m okay with that. 

Christine: You don’t want-to-know [connects words together to sound like “wonton know”]. 

Em: Want-to-know. Yeah, that’s right.

Christine’s Story – Blaze Nathan Bernstein

Christine: Wow. Okay. Well, good thing I don’t want to tell you. So, now it’s time for my story, which although I did do the notes, like we said, a couple weeks ago, um, I did take it upon myself to prepare. So, don’t worry, everyone. I’m not just jump–

Em: At least one of us. 

Christine: At least one of us. And thankfully, the true crime half. So, uh– 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Good point. 

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Christine: I want to start off with a correction I wrote for myself at the top of the notes several weeks ago, which now has probably just made everyone angry and I haven’t corrected it, but I’m gonna do it now. It was a pod– I’m embarrassed about this. It was a podcast that I mentioned. It’s called Stuff You Should Know, SYSK. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And a lot of people were like, “Christine, it’s not Things You Should Know [laughs] or whatever the fuck I said. It’s Stuff You Should Know. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: And I talked about their podcast and how good it was. Like please, please know that I meant Stuff You Should Know, SYSK. 

Em: Oh, I don’t think that’s anything to be embarrassed about. 

Christine: We had a lot of– Well, I was just embarrassed because I gave them so much credit– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –and then I talked about a different show or like the wrong podcast. 

Em: I see. 

Christine: And I mean, I don’t know if that other show even exists. I don’t know what I said, but people were like, “Oh, like just pointing out it’s–“ Because we have a lot of overlap– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –kind of like umami and whatever the fuck word. 

Em: We’re the savory ones. I’ll tell you that. 

Christine: Oh, well that’s– There’s no doubt. And Allison, don’t even start. Um– 

Em: Don’t. Please, Allison. I’m not in the mood. I’m not in the mood. I’m not now or when you hear this. Don’t even mess with me. 

Christine: [laughs] Not today. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So, I was embarrassed about that ’cause I– not embarrassed, but I was like, “I should probably correct that.” And, uh, now we’re gonna tell a story. This is a story– [sighs] It’s a sad one, of course. Um, it’s a story of Blaze Nathan Bernstein. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Yes. Same name as my husband. Same first name. We’ll get to that. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Just after the new year in 2018, 19-year-old Blaze Bernstein was gearing up for the second half of his sophomore year of college. He was home for winter break, soaking up the last days with his family and friends in California (he lived in Orange County) before it was time to fly back to Pennsylvania. He was super close with his family. He was the eldest of three children. He got along with his, uh, younger brother and sister. Their names were Jay and Beaue [pronounced “boe-ee”], which I think is so cute. Blaze, Jay, and Beaue I feel like are very fun like sibling names. 

Em: They feel like they’re in a band. [laughs] 

Christine: I know. I know. They should be. And Blaze is with a Z, if anyone’s wondering. But again– 

Em: I love that. 

Christine: –we’ll get to that. So the siblings grew up together in Lake Forest, which is an affluent town in Orange County. It’s about s– an hour south of LA. Their parents, Jeanne and Gideon, were originally from LA, but they moved south as many people do, um, to kind of a quiet, uh, you know, well-to-do area because it’s known for being safe and good for families and so on. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: So their family, despite kind of moving to this sort of what you might call like a sheltered well-to-do area, um, they were not unfamiliar with the harsh reality of the world because his Romanian-born grandmother, whom he was also really clo-close with, Leah Bernstein, is actually, to this day, a living survivor of the Holocaust. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And that was a really important relationship to him growing up. There was a video somewhere of him doing like a presentation on the Holocaust at like age ten or something. Like he was– This was just very important, um, part of his life and what he wanted to share with the world. So it was crucial to Jeanne and Gideon, his parents, and their entire extended family that the children would group up in a place where they could be themselves and be confident in who they were. And Blaze himself as the eldest, he was named for his grandfathers, Nathan and Chaim, but he was also named after 17th century French mathematician, physicist, and religious philosopher, Blaise Pascal. 

Em: Oh, wow. 

Christine: And that is what I said the moment I met Blaise. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: He said, “I’m Blaise.” And I said, I said, “Like Blaise Pascal?” And he was like, “Nobody ever says that.” And then I imagine that’s– 

Em: Did you really? 

Christine: I did. And I imagine that’s when he fell in love with me, but I think it’s probably not because I think it was probably a weird thing to say. 

Em: I thought you were joking. 

Christine: I was holding a Bud Light Platinum– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and I said, I said, “Oh, like Blaise Pascal.” And it gets worse ’cause then he was like kind of trying to like I guess show off, and he said that his aunt one time had met Donald Trump. First of all, I said, “Who’s Donald Trump?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So that felt really good at the time. 

Em: And I hope, I hope you say that forever too. I– 

Christine: I wish I could. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And honestly I wish to go back to that day– 

Em: What a good day. 

Christine: –to that time when I didn’t know. And he’s like, you know, Celebrity Apprentice, and I was like, “I don’t watch shit like that.” Turns out Lisa Lampanelli, [laughs] wonderful Lisa Lampanelli, was on that show. I really just kind of said everything but probably what I was supposed to say. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: But it worked. And every time I introduced him to my family, they’re like, “Oh, Blaise Pascal,” and I’m like, “Please stop.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, but for Blaise it was also a family name, so I don’t know. But they– I love that they took that, and then they were like, “But we’ll do a Z, just make it a little more exciting.” Um– 

Em: Sure. I mean, I– When I met Blaise, I don’t know if I said it, but my first thought was, “Oh, like fire.” 

Christine: Everybody thinks it is, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Which makes sense. I mean, that’s a name too obviously. But I kind of love it. I was like– At first like I would get annoyed when people would think there was a Z in it. Now I’m like, “Nah, that’s kind of kick-ass. I love it.” 

Em: No, I’m, I’m such a– The only reason I like my last name is because there’s a Z in there. There– You got a– 

Christine: It’s good. 

Em: A Z is so good. 

Christine: You don’t see Z’s enough. 

Em: No, it’s a rare– It’s like a rare Pokémon card. So– 

Christine: You’re so right. I’m so glad you even said that. It didn’t even occur to me that that’s so special you have a Z in your name. 

Em: Thank you. [laughs] 

Christine: It is! 

Em: Well, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Let me just do a little spin. [spins once in their desk chair] 

Christine: [sings single note in wonder] ♪ Ahhhh… ♪♪ 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: That– I needed that. 

Christine: It really did look like a– almost like a spotlight came down. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, it’s probably my imagination, but you really just twirled. 

Em: [singing] ♪ Ave… ♪♪ [speaking] Yeah. Okay, sorry. 

Christine: So. 

Em: Blaze. 

Christine: So Blaze is named after, uh, Blaise Pascal, which, uh, drunk 22-year-old me was like, “Oh my god, like the mathematician.” And Blaise was like, “I don’t know. Maybe? Yes.” Okay. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So Blaze’s family knew this kid was special. His mom said when he was born, she looked at him and was like, “This is just a special human.” Um, he was indeed very special. He was described by many of his classmates as a Renaissance man. He was pretty much good at everything. He loved math, science, religion, philosophy, music, literature, food. Um, he was doing public speaking. He was trying to spread word about anti-Semitism. He was endly– endlessly curious about the world. And, um, he flew under the radar, uh, but a lot of people who knew him well described him as practically a genius but also like a really loving person, which I feel like is a hard kind of thing to find. 

Em: Smart and loving. 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: I feel like you– you’re either too smart that you’re a little sheltered socially or you’re so social– 

Christine: It's hard to find that balance. 

Em: I’ll tell you I’m way too social. Couldn’t tell you a thing about– 

Christine: As a yapper– 

Em: –couldn’t tell you a thing about knowledge. Not me. 

Christine: Exactly. I can say Blaise Pascal. That’s about where it ends. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, but yes. So he was very friendly, very outgoing, and he had a very sharp sense of humor. Um, but he also was pretty introverted, uh, and never, you know, went out of his way to seek attention. Um, he was not quite out for glory. But he did struggle to make friends. He was kind and goofy, um, but he was bullied every single day at school, um, and just never felt like he could quite fit in. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, he wanted to get out of the public school system, so he auditioned for OCSA [pronounced “OSHA”]. And I’m thinking, “OSHA like–“ 

Em: The c– like– 

Christine: “Like OSHA.” [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, okay. I thought the same thing. 

Christine: [makes buzzer sound] I was wrong. You’re wrong. We’re all wrong. It’s called the Orange County School of the Arts. 

Em: Ohh. Interesting. 

Christine: And it’s an elite school. Did you have an arts school? 'Cause we had one called– And this is like funny ’cause I feel like it’s similar where it was called– It’s called the SP– sorry, SCPA, Society for Creative and Performing Arts. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: But then there’s like the SPCA. And so we’d always– I’d always mix them up in my head. Anyway. 

Em: We never had an art school, but we had a– we had two private schools. I went to one of those. And on our building, it said “Fine Math and Arts,” but then– 

Christine: Fine Math and Arts? [laughs] 

Em: I know. But then the seniors one year replaced the F` from “Fine” and moved it over to “Arts,” so it said “Math and Farts.” I thought that was funny. Um. 

Christine: Please. That’s so good. 

Em: Uh, no, we had– 

Christine: Extremely good. 

Em: In our, in our school, if you were part of, um– What’s it called? Like, like the main organization where you try to make like community events and things like that. Um, it was called SOFA because it was the Student Organization of FA where I went to school. 

Christine: Oh, SOFA. Got it. 

Em: And so if you were like the president of SOFA. I don’t know. It– 

Christine: What, what if you’re the king? What if you’re the SOFA king? 

Em: I’m tell– Trust– You don’t think 17-year-olds got– 

Christine: I know. I’m trying to fit in. [laughs] 

Em: I know. But, uh– Oh, you’re, you’re right on track though. 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: Anyway, so we didn’t have a– an art school, but a lot of our acronyms because we– our school was FA. Uh, like we were o-on the tennis team. We– This is like– They were called like– This fucked up now, but at– 

Christine: I know what you’re gonna say. 

Em: –in high school, it’s called the FAT team. 

Christine: I know what you’re gonna say. 

Em: The FA tennis team. 

Christine: There’s so many– fart, fat. I mean like FA already lends itself to a lot of– SOFA king– 

Em: And of course, all the mean girls were on the basketball team, and, of course, they were called FAB, and I was like, “Shut up!” 

Christine: That’s so annoying. 

Em: I was just sitting there on the FAT girls team, the FA tennis girls team. 

Christine: Oh, that’s so fucking annoying. 

Em: I know. 

Christine: [said quickly to sound like “so fucking”] SOFA-king annoying. 

Em: SOFA. Anyway, so uh, FA got a lot of play whether or not you liked it. But, but it was just, it was just easy, and we were 17, and it was easy to do. So. 

Christine: It writes itself. 

Em: Yeah. What about you? 

Christine: What was your school newspaper called? Did it have a fun name? 

Em: No, it– Our mascot was the Falcon, and so it was called the, uh, “the Falcon Flyer.” 

Christine: Oh, that’s pretty cool. 

Em: 'Cause falcons fly. Um– 

Christine: Our, our arts– Thanks. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Our um– [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] In case you didn’t fucking know. 

Christine: Unlike penguins, um, fun fact, not everyone knows. Uh, our, our school had an arts magazine that I was, uh, not invited to join even when I applied– 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: –and it was called “Ellipsis” dot dot dot. 

Em: That feels like something I would have been– 

Christine: I got bullied out of that. Like that’s– People– Teenagers are so mean sometimes. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Senior year they let me write an article, and then they changed like the spelling of some of the things in there, and it was wrong. And then everyone was like, “You spelled all these things wrong,” and I was like, “The editor of the newspaper did that.” 

Em: you know our– What was your yearbook called? Not your newspaper. What was your yearbook called? 

Christine: Em. 

Em: Okay 

Christine: We– Our– My year didn’t even have an yearbook. 

Em: What? 

Christine: We didn't have one. 

Em: Why? 

Christine: And then like a year later someone was like, “We’ll just–“ 'Cause everyone hated our class, and our class hated ourselves. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: We were like this weird black sheep class that like when we graduated, all the teachers said, “Thank god.” 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: I know. And it’s like looking back, I’m like, “My brother has all these fond memories,” and I’m like, “We were not well-liked at that school, our whole class.” I don’t know what it was. 

Em: Well– 

Christine: We didn’t even get a yearbook. We did eventually, but it was all misspelled. It just had a bunch of photos like on pages. They didn’t give a shit. 

Em: Well, I was gonna say, um, I was on the yearbook team. 

Christine: They call it “The Rostrum,” though. I don’t know. 

Em: “The Rostrum,” Sounds like, sounds like colostrum. 

Christine: [laughs] They needed to sound hoity-toity, So they call it “The Summit Rostrum.” 

Em: You could have just called it “The Roster.” What assholes. Um– 

Christine: No, a roster is like a roster of students, I think. 

Em: Wait, is that what a yearbook is? 

Christine: What the fuck do I– I don’t know, Em. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I didn’t get a yearbook. Didn’t I tell you that already? 

Em: Okay, sorry. Mine was called “The Talon.” And I– We– 

Christine: Oh, that’s good. 

Em: 'Cause Falcons. And we had um– I, I kind of– Well, I joined the yearbook as like an elective, but also because I’d gone to this school like my whole fucking life, my last name was constantly misspelled in the yearbook, and I was like– 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: – “I’m gonna make sure that doesn’t happen.” 

Christine: Sick of that shit. 

Em: And then even when I was on the yearbook team, so many pages of me, my name was misspelled. 

Christine: That makes me feel so much better because after the whole thing of changing my spellings in my thing, and I was like, “Even I write my own article, and they spell my name wrong and spell it–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like fuck off. Like what is that? 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] I– It’s– You know, your I and E and a C or an H or both. Someone said– Super badass. Someone called, uh– mispronounced my last name reading it this week, and it was “skulls.” 

Christine: [gasps] Ha! 

Em: Hell yeah, brother. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: How have we never even come up with that? 

Em: Em Skulls. And I went, “That’s absolutely me.” 

Christine: Em Skulls. How has not a single listener– Probably somebody has, but how has not a single listener been like, “Hey, if you pronounce your name differently–“ 

Em: I might as well. As long as I get to keep the Z, we’re all good. 

Christine: That’s cool. 

Em: Schiefer – I can’t help you. 

Christine: Nah, but trust me, I’ve tried. It’s a lost cause. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Wow. Okay. So, he applies or auditions, I guess, or, or tries to get into this really, uh, preppy, not preppy, but like really, uh– What do you call it? 

Em: Performance arts school. 

Christine: Performance arts. Like um– 

Em: To do acting or like music or like– What’s his, what’s his thing? 

Christine: Well, you will see. So, he– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So it's called the Orange County School of the Arts. It describes itself as providing students in grades 7 through 12 “rigorous college-preparatory academic program and pre-professional arts training”– 

Em: Whew. 

Christine: –and probably math and farts too, but I don’t know about that. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, admission to OCSA is competitive. The school boasts famous alumni, like actors Pedro Pascal, Justice Smith, and Dante Basco. 

Em: Holy crap. 

Christine: Blaze had loved creative pursuits since he was little. He was always in the school plays. He was always putting on puppet shows. And so he wanted to pursue performing arts and creative writing at OCSA. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And he made it in, and he finally felt like he had found his place. He thrived there. He made friends. He finally felt like, “Oh, this is the kind of high school experience that I’ve wanted.” He was a very good writer. Um, he took advanced science classes. He competed in chemistry tournaments. Um– 

Em: Wow. Nerd. 

Christine: And then on the weekend– Nerd? He worked on the– at the synagogue on the weekends. 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: And then when he had time off, he went to national parks to enjoy nature. 

Em: What a good boy. 

Christine: I know. He wanted to do it all, and he was doing it all. Um, he had a lot of people who, who, uh, admired him. And his teachers even said like he wouldn’t even accept that. Like he would have been surprised by that because he just wasn’t the type to be like looking for accolades. So when he received an acceptance to an Ivy League school, nobody was surprised. And he entered the University of Pennsylvania as a pre-med student in the class – this is crazy – the class of 2020. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: His studies focused on math and science, but he held on to his love for writing. And he would actually– This actually goes exactly into our conversation. He was a contributor to Penn Appétit, which was their university food magazine, the student-run food magazine. 

Em: Sign me up. 

Christine: Are you kidding me? 

Em: I’m the first on that subscription list. 

Christine: Sign me up to get the– I was gonna say to get the magazine. Sign me up to write op-eds. Sign me up for all of it. 

Em: You know they called the blurbs “hors d’oeuvres.” 

Christine: They better have. And if they– 

Em: You and I could really get into this. 

Christine: We could really shake some things up at this place. 

Em: Maybe, uh, for our Yappy Hour, we just talk about what we would have in a food magazine. 

Christine: Let’s make our own magazine. I mean, we do have the um– 

Em: Easy. 

Christine: –The Xiinön Gazette. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, we’ll make The Xiinön Gazette, but like the foodie version. 

Em: Yeah, we could come up with things that Xiinön would eat if she had a food magazine. 

Christine: Frappuccinos. 

Em: We could really– It, it could spiral quickly. 

Christine: We could do– Yeah, it’ll be good. It’ll be good. Um, so Blaze became a dedicated lover of all things food and food writing. There are p– photos of him like posing with like a chef hat and like a thing for the magazine. It’s, it’s really cute. He, he found this kind of like side niche hobby that he didn’t realize he would love so much. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: And so when he would go home (I mean, this is my dream. I’m holding out hope for Leona), he would show off all the new like recipes and culinary skills he had learned while he was away. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And his parents would just sit there and be like, “Oh my god.” 

Em: That's awesome. 

Christine: “Like our son is just serving us gourmet meals.” Blaze’s grandfather, Richard, said with admiration, “I wish I could write like he wrote. I wish I could cook like he cooked.” He was just a very talented kid. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: On Wednesday, January 3, 2018, the Bernsteins woke up to a usual day at home in California. Blaze would soon be returning to school after winter break. And the night before, Blaze’s grandfather had actually brought up his name, and Blaze didn’t know until this point that he was named after Blaise Pascal. I guess he hadn’t met me to scream it in his face yet. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I would have told him. Uh– 

Em: That was the– You know, you listen to all these accolades about him, and the only problem? He doesn’t know me. [laughs] 

Christine: Yep. You know what? I feel I have one-up finally. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, and so that’s powerful for me. So he was really kind of delighted about that. He didn’t know. And so his parents said, “you know, we’re just really proud of you, and you’re kind of like proving your own namesake, which is just really cool.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And, and he himself couldn’t wait get– to get back to school, had a lot to look forward to. In the morning, which was Wednesday, Jeanne decided to let him sleep until his dentist appointment while she went to yoga. But throughout the morning, she’s reaching out to him by text, saying like, “Hey, um, you ready for this appointment? Are we gonna meet there?” And she thought like, “Okay, maybe he’ll just meet me when, when I arrive.” But she got there, and Blaze never showed. And that’s when her heart started to sink because she called her husband, Gideon, and they both realized this is not right because it’s not like him to ignore his phone. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Uh it’s not like him to miss an appointment. And they both got immediately worried, thinking like, “Well, where could he have gone? Or what could be wrong?” And Gideon then asked Jeanne, “Do we know for a fact that Blaze stayed in the house last night? Like what if he left?” And that is when her stomach really dropped because she hadn’t even considered that like maybe he left last night. She hadn’t checked in on him. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: She had left the door closed and said he can sleep in. So that fact added a whole nother level of panic like, “Oh god, has he been gone—“ 

Em: Yeah, like so many more hours of “what happened?” 

Christine: Yes, exactly. Like a whole night longer than they thought. So she’s terrified. Um, she’s like, “I don’t even know where he could be.” So Gideon rushes home from work, finds Blaze’s room empty, but Blaze’s glasses, wallet, and keys were there along with his luggage, which was packed and ready for school. 

Em: Not good. 

Christine: Not good. His siblings had not heard from him. His friends had not heard from him. Gideon tried to use find my f– Find My Friends on the app, um, to see where Blaze might be, but his location was turned off, and that was also very unusual. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: The family cell phone carrier confirmed that no recent calls had been made from Blaze’s phone. And it was like he had just vanished and turned his phone off out of the blue. That day, when it got dark and Blaze still wasn’t home, his parents called the local sheriff. And at first, they were dismissive, right? Like he’s an adult teenager. He’s home on school break. You know, he’s probably out partying or with friends. But when the Bernsteins insisted that something was not right, uh, the sheriff finally agreed to file a missing person report. Beaue, meanwhile, texted all of Blaze’s friends that she could think of. They were really close, he and his sister, so she kind of knew his circle. And everyone said, “Well, I heard from him yesterday.” But nobody had heard from him since that night. 

Em: Mm. Horrifying. 

Christine: Horrifying. The Bernsteins logged into Blaze’s computer, but there was no useful information. And then Beaue, great sister move, thought, “Why don’t we check his Snapchat?” 

Em: That’s right. 

Christine: That’s a sister for you. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] “I know all of his passwords. I’ll find him in 30 seconds or less.” 

Christine: Yep, yep. “Don’t need Face ID. I’ve got this.” Uh, so they log into this Snapchat, and he’s often communicating with friends on there. And they didn’t have his phone, right? But they had his password saved in the iCloud keychain. So they’re able to log in from someone else’s phone, and, uh, they knew that this was a little like risky because it’s Snapchat, and there are Snaps there. And they’re like, “Well, if I click them, right? They usually self-delete.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Uh, some last. I mean, I haven’t used Snapchat since literally probably the time I was dating Blaise like 10, 12 years ago or whatever. 

Em: Yeah. You know, I, I haven’t touched Snapchat in years. And I have one friend who still sends me Snaps all the time– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and I’m like, “Girl, let it go.” [laughs] 

Christine: Dude. No, but the young people use it now. 

Em: Oh, it’s back? 

Christine: Like my sister’s on it. Oh, my sister has been on that app for years every single day. Like she has like– She and her friends have like hundreds if not– 

Em: I thought it phased out? 

Christine: No. I thought so too. And it was just that they hid it from us. They were like, “You’re too old now.” 

Em: I see. Okay. 

Christine: And they took it over. Um, and now the young’uns use it. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: And I know this only because my sister’s like– and her friends are always on it. And clearly from this case– in this case, um, you know, it’s 2018. He’s still using Snapchat– or Snapchat, um, with his friends. So they log in, and they’re able to see that there are, um, these unread messages, but also, you know, if you take a screenshot, right, like the other person’s notified. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And if you view it, then they know you viewed it, and it might disappear. So even if there were clues here, um, it’s like a, it’s like a– It feels like a live wire thing. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Like you really have to be so careful ’cause you can like miss something, you know? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So luckily, one major clue had not been deleted yet. Blaze had sent his home address to someone at 10 p.m. the night before, the night he disappeared. 

Em: Oh… [sighs] Well, that’s immediately prime suspect number one to me. 

Christine: Correct. Beaue was surprised to not recognize the name at all. The name was Sam Woodward. And she said– I love this sister. I love this family. She said, “Dad, you call him. I’ll record the conversation.” 

Em: Thatta girl. 

Christine: Fucking yes. Yes. Thank you. And so that’s what they did. Gideon called. Sam picked up. First of all, he didn’t pick up. And then they messaged him like, “Please answer the phone.” And he did. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Which I’m like, “Couldn’t be me.” 

Em: Yeah, no. 

Christine: If someone told me– If I don’t answer the phone and then they say, “Please answer it,” I go, “Actually, I’ll less answer it now.” 

Em: A big “send me a picture of the body you need me to identify–“ 

Christine: Like I’m not participating. 

Em: “–because there’s no other reason you need to call me for that intense of a thing.” And I’m also not gonna answer. 

Christine: I’m not gonna answer ever, especially if you want me to. Sorry. 

Em: Mm-mm-mm. 

Christine: It’s just I have a contrary personality. I can’t do it. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So he finally picks up, thankfully. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And, um, he says, “Oh, yeah. This is Sam. Yeah, I did hang out with Blaze last night.” It turns out that Blaze and Sam were former high school classmates at OCSA. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But the reason that his family didn’t know about Sam is ’cause he was a couple years older, and he had actually left the arts school and graduated from a different school in 2016. So they said, “Well, tell us about when you last saw him.” Sam says he picked Blaze up– He sent him his address. He picked Blaze up the night prior, and they drove to Borrego Park to meet another one of Blaze’s friends. And they said, “Okay, which friend?” He said, “I don’t know. I don’t know his name. I don’t know the guy.” 

Em: But you hung out with him last night? 

Christine: Apparently. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Yep. So they arrive at the park, and Blaze gets out of the car. But apparently, Sam has a weird feeling about the situation, so he hung back while Blaze approached another man, and the pair walked away. After a while, Sam says he did get out of the car to find Blaze, but now it was dark. He didn’t see anyone. He said he called out Blaze’s name. No one answered. And Sam said he was scared or maybe he thought like, uh, that, that Blaze was pulling a prank– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –or maybe he had just ditched him. Um, and when he was sure Blaze wasn’t coming back, Sam was like, “So I just drove home and assumed he would call me in the morning, but he didn’t.” 

Em: So he just ditched– truly just ditched him? 

Christine: That’s, that’s– Just ditched him and said, “I’m sure he’ll get back to me eventually.” 

Em: Hm. Okay. 

Christine: Interesting. So Sam encouraged Gideon, the dad, to call back if he had any more questions. That’s so nice. 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. Okay. 

Christine: And he said, “You know–“ And you can hear the call. And that’s why I’m like, “Thank god for this sister. Thank god for this family.” Because in the documentary I watched– And, um, I think it was a 48 Hours, um, documentary, whatever you call it, uh, episode. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And the family’s being interviewed and stuff, and they play this footage of the dad on the phone, and you can hear this guy Sam going, “You know, I’m really worried about him.” It’s like, “Are you? Are you?” 

Em: Yeah. Yeah. 

Christine: So– Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, he’s like, “Yeah, call me back.“ 

Em: 'Cause I feel like no matter– I don’t– I mean– I, I don’t remember what I was like in my 20s necessarily or how I would react to this, but I think I’d at least be– I’d be like, “Holy shit. He’s not home. I don’t know. Like how can I help?” Versus like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “I’m so worried. Anyway–“ 

Christine: And be like, “Oh, call me back if you have any more questions.” Like, “Yeah, I do have questions. Where the fuck is my son?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like what? What do you mean “call me back if you have more questions”? 

Em: Like why did you abandon him in the woods with a shady random person you don’t know the name of? 

Christine: Correct. And who are you? Like what the fuck? 

Em: Yeah. And how does– Yeah. How does he know you? 

Christine: This is so shady. And so– Right, so they have this conversation. They– Thankfully, they filmed the call, everything like that. And, uh, he said, “Oh, call me back. I really want to know what happened.” Fucking asshole. 

Em: You know what happened, buddy. 

Christine: Yeah. The Bernsteins contacted the sheriff who searched the park for anything out of the ordinary. They didn’t find anything. So detectives brought Sam into the sheriff’s office to follow up, and he told them the same story that he had told Gideon. Now the officers are getting concerned because the neighborhood beside Borrego Park backed up to a pretty expansive wilderness area. And when I’m saying expansive, I mean– Speaking of like areas like LA where you think, “Oh, you’re in a city.” There are thousands of acres of trails, hills, canyons. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: You know, like the second you get out of these places, especially in California, like you’re in wilderness – 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –once you kind of go out, um, of your bubble. So– 

Em: There’s more than one mouse. 

Christine: There’s one– [laughs] No. Are you sure? 

Em: [laughs] I don’t know. My, my backyard’s pretty scary with the– 

Christine: “Meese”? Oh my god. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m sorry. That was– 

Em: Stuart… Large? [laughs] 

Christine: Liter– [laughs] Stuart Large. Okay. So the officers became more concerned because of this like fact of all these, uh, trails and wilderness. Um, and if he had gone there at night, even just with innocent reasons, he could be in trouble. He could have gotten hurt. He could be– Someone else could have harmed him. He could be lost. Who knows? So some people thought maybe he’s lost and suffering from exposure. Of course, there could be a wild animal. I mean, we were just talking about this. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Mountain lions. Um, some people suggested maybe he died by suicide, but his family was like, “No, we literally packed his bags this like last night. Like, he’s not– That wasn’t–“ 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: No. He was an extremely happy person. He was so excited about his future. He really felt like he– He actually spent the whole winter break like talking about all his goals and plans. Um, and nobody– 

Em: And he sounds like he’s like s– Not that this isn’t, this isn’t a sign of anything, but I mean, he sounded super active. Like he had a bunch of responsibilities that he was enjoying. 

Christine: Yes, exactly. And I think a lot of times– And that’s part of it because the family said, “We didn’t notice any psychological changes in him. We didn’t notice him retreating.” 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: “We didn’t notice him like being gloomy or depressed, you know, nothing like that.” So, of course, if he is trapped somewhere or lost, time is of the essence. Um, so they launch these enormous searches where authorities and volunteers scour the area for Blaze. They use, uh, dogs, helicopters, drones, people on foot. Uh Blaze’s synagogue congregation put up thousands of flyers. And the Bernsteins, having come from LA and having worked in LA, they had some celebrity contacts. And I just love how like savvy these people are because they’re like, “Who can we get the word– How do we get the word out?” So they get Kobe Bryant, Charlie Puth, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to post about Blaze’s case. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Yeah, this is– They’re trying to get the word out. It seemed impossible he wouldn’t be found with the extensive searching. But as days went by with no news, his family started to lose hope. And his mom, Jeanne, feared they might never find him and, worse, not ever know what happened to him. This is where Blaze’s best friend from childhood, Raiah Rofsky, comes in. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: When her mom called her to tell her Blaze was missing and that he was last seen with someone named Sam Word– Woodward, Raiah gasped. Her mom said, “Do you know Sam Woodward?” And she said, “Yes, he’s crazy.” 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: That’s a quote. 

Em: Oh, shit. 

Christine: And she was beside herself like, “Why the fuck is he with Sam Woodward?” And– 

Em: Yeah, why would he pick that if he– if his own best friend thinks that? 

Christine: A-and everyone said– If his best friend thinks like, “What on earth was he doing?”, that’s how you know. Yeah. And so according to Raiah, when Sam still went to OCSA before he left, he was withdrawn. He was serious. He was like not a light-hearted person at all. He didn’t have a, a core friend group. And not only that, he had a reputation as being sexist, homophobic, racist, just like a, a shithead. 

Em: Just a– Yeah, okay. 

Christine: Just like a, a bad dude. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And Raiah literally said she could not think of anyone more unlike Blaze. 

Em: Huh. 

Christine: Like let alone someone to hang out with one-on-one. 

Em: Was he like doing like charity work? I don’t know. [laughs] Like was he like– Were they– 

Christine: [laughs] A pity, a pity hangout? 

Em: I mean, like was, was there something that like they– Had they re-met in like a different– like in one of his clubs or something? And like maybe he was giving him another chance or–? I don’t know. 

Christine: You’re on the right path here, I think. Raiah was able to crack the case wide open because Raiah knew something crucial about Blaze that not everyone else did. 

Em: Uh-oh. 

Christine: Blaze was gay. 

[Em holds their hand up with a limp wrist] 

Christine: You don’t seem shocked. [laughs] 

Em: Well, I, I, I did the little– As soon as you said she knew something he didn’t, I went, “Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.” 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] Oh, you knew it. Okay, hold on. I’m getting a gla– 

Em: Sorry. You, you missed my little, my little wrist moment. 

Christine: Oh, I didn’t see it. Wait, do it again. Hold on. Hold on. 

[Em holds their hand up with a limp wrist] 

Christine: Oh, ’cause the screen– 

Em: Oh, the screen cut it off? 

Christine: I can only see part of you, and I was like I, I didn’t know what you were doing. Yeah, precisely. 

[Christine makes a limp wrist motion] 

Em: Yeah. Hey, girl. [repeats the limp wrist] 

[Christine walks offscreen] 

Em: Um, where did she go? 

Christine: [offscreen] Getting a glass. 

Em: Oh, she’s getting a glass. 

Christine: This story makes me just really upset. [pouring a glass of wine] Sorry. 

Em: So, was he– Was Sam Woodward– Sam Woodward– Oh no. 

Christine: Do you see what’s happening? 

Em: [sighs] So Sam Woodward is– 

Christine: Do you see what’s happening here? Why I got the wine? 

Em: So Sam Woodward is a homophobe and tricked him– started flirting with him or something and tricked him on to like, “Let’s go on a date.” 

Christine: Ding fucking ding. 

Em: Is that what– To so that he could then assault– 

Christine: Ding fucking ding. 

Em: –and kill a gay man because he’s a homophobe. 

Christine: I wish I could say like, “Oh, thank god, no.” That’s literally– It’s a hate crime. It’s– 

Em: Yeah, it was– W-what’s– I don’t know what the right word– There’s a phrase for it. Maybe you’ll get to– But there’s, there’s a phrase for it when like there are bigots tr– with the plan to trick people on dating sites– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –to then– I mean, it’s the same thing that like horrible men would do to trap a woman, you know? It’s like, “Oh, come on this date with me.” 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And then all of a sudden, like they are in a bad position, you know. 

Christine: The violence. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s hate-fueled. It’s, um– Yeah. It’s really sick. 

Em: Not victim blaming at all, but why did he think, “Oh, Sam Woodward’s the guy for me” if we– 

Christine: Guess what? You’ll find out. And it’s actually more disturbing because it feels like something any one of us might– 

Em: Fall for? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Ah. 

Christine: Not even fall for, but just like agree to. 

Em: Oh, shit. Okay. 

Christine: Like I don’t– I know. I know. Okay. It’s– This is why it’s like– 

Em: Wait, I think I know. 

Christine: You do? 

Em: I’ll wait. You tell the story. I think I know. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Sh– I don’t want to like keep ruining your– 

Christine: Why don’t you say it and if it’s, if it’s not that, we can talk about it? 

Em: Okay. Uh I, I think that he said, “I think I’m gay, and I really need some help talking, talking about it to somebody. Can you come help me?” 

Christine: Not quite. Sort of. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: A little bit. A little bit. Like he said he– He did say something like, “I’ll make an exception f–” We– We’ll get to it. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But, but it’s, it’s almost even more– 

Em: Worse? 

Christine: It’s almost more innocent than that. Like it’s something– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Okay, we’ll get to it. 

Em: Okay. Okay. 

Christine: You’ll understand when you hear it because it’s just like– 

Em: I’ve never seen you break out two glasses for the same bottle of wine. So, it’s got to be bad. 

Christine: Did I? 

Em: Well, didn’t you already pour wine earlier? And now you have to get a seco– 

Christine: No, I just opened the bottle, and then I realized I don’t have a wine glass. So I’ve just been staring at an open bottle for a while, and it’s– 

Em: Why haven’t you just been drinking it by the bottle? I’m not gonna judge you, and it’s not like anyone else is looking. 

Christine: 'Cause I'm telling a terrible story. I don’t want to be, you know, making light of it. I figured I might as well, you know, be– have a little bit of decorum, um, for once in my fucking life. 

Em: I guess one of us, maybe. 

Christine: I know. Earlier I spilled ranch on this shirt– 

Em: Oh– 

Christine: –and I just remembered I never changed it, speaking of decorum. 

Em: It looks great. Hang on a second. Um, Joey Construction is calling me. [laughs] 

[intermission song: ♪ Please stand by, we have to step away and go get wine, answer the door– ♪♪ ] 

Em: I really like Joey Construction. 

Christine: I do too. 

Em: He’s a really good guy. Um– 

Christine: Like Joey Construction is hysterical. It sounds like Bob the Builder’s like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –like off-brand cousin. 

Em: Uh, he, uh– Well, als– I ha– 

Christine: “I’m Joey Construction. Is this a hammer or a wrench?” 

Em: I have no idea what his company or his last name is. Um, but, uh– 

Christine: Irrelevant. 

Em: His, his wife, I guess, um, is big on doing surprises. 

Christine: Joette Construction? 

Em: [laughs] J-Joanne Construction. 

Christine: [laughs] Joanne Construction. 

Em: But so when I told him like, “I need this all done by the time my girlfriend comes home.” He was like, “Okay. Well, tell me what things to email you to and like things that she doesn’t have access to, and we’ll only work from there. And oh, make sure you take pictures of th– of this ’cause she’ll want the before and after.” And I was like, “Joey Construction knows what the fuck is going on.” 

Christine: Hell yeah! 

Em: Um, I don’t– 

Christine: It’s not his first rodeo, man. 

Em: I don’t like the prices that he’s giving me. But Joey Construction also said I can do all of it in under a week. So Joey Construction gets whatever he wants. 

Christine: Just Jo– Give Joey what he wants. 

Em: I think he’s trying to make me a, a long-term client, which I know he probably does with everybody, but I have a– We have a rapport that I think he’s trying to hold on to, so. 

Christine: Hey, that’s important. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And sometimes I, I feel like I could– Sometimes I feel like you don’t have that rapport even when the person’s perfectly nice. So I feel like that’s a good thing to, to find. 

Em: I don’t know if I’m being swindled by the salesman of him though. Like he– We were on the phone earlier, and I– I’m having– Whoa, hang on. I almost said I’m having money problems. That’s not true. I’m having credit card– 

Christine: [laughs] I was like, “We are?” 

Em: [laughs] I– I’m having an issue with my credit card. I, I never got it activated in time, and so I have to now go to a physical bank and activate it. 

Christine: Oh, oh, oh. Yeah. 

Em: So I was l– So he’s just like on good faith doing this work, and I haven’t even paid him like an, an initial fee yet. 

Christine: Oh, well that’s a good fucking sign. 

Em: And he even said he was like, “No, I really trust you. You’re like– You’re like one of my best clients.” And I was– He was like, “You’re–“ And I was like, “I feel like you say that to everybody, Joey Construction, but okay, I’ll take it.” 

Christine: You probably do, but also that probably means you’re giving him all sorts of good work, you know. 

Em: I certainly am. I was like, “What do you think about this? What do you think about this?” And I did tell him I was like, “I want it to be like witchy cottage.” And he was like, “I know exactly what that means. Don’t worry.” [laughs] So. 

Christine: Oh, what? I need to find me– I need to find me a Joey Construction over here. 

Em: Anytime you need construction in LA, I’ve got one for you. So. 

Christine: Mm, all right. Well. 

Em: Anyway, um, sorry to interrupt, but it– I was worried that like the house fell down, so. 

Christine: Sure. And it didn’t? 

Em: The– A wall did. Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: What? 

Em: Well, he’s putting in an arch– 

Christine: Oh. [laughs] 

Em: –so he had to knock out the old one to reframe it. 

Christine: I was like, “Um, do you need to go handle that?” Okay. 

Em: O-On purpose. He took a big old hammer to it. So. 

Christine: Okay, okay. Got it. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And he’s like, “Just called to l– to let you know.” Awesome. 

Em: He was like, “I’ll let you know the wall is gone.” So. [laughs] 

Christine: Good, good job. 

Em: I– When, when we’re done recording, I’ll check my security camera and see what it looks like over there. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Joey Construction. Oh my god. You can send him a treat on the Furbo. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Okay. So. 

Em: You were saying you had ranch on your outfit, and you look great. 

Christine: Thank you so much. Oh, wow. Good memory. Um, I also said Blaze was gay. [gasps] 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Gasp. 

Em: 100%. 

Christine: And then I needed to get the wine, and then we discussed how this might play out– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and all the terrible ways in which it might and did play out. So, let’s get to it. He had come out to Raiah, and she was extremely supportive of him, uh, as his best friend and said, “You love who you love.” His family actually suspected he might have been gay for a long time– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –but his parents– Uh, they told him, you know, “If you are, we will embrace you no matter what,” but they never pressured him to, to come out to them. And so at this point in time, he was out at college. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So he was at UPenn. He was out, um, about his sexuality, but he didn’t seem ready to talk about it at home. And his parents were totally fine and respectful of that. They just kind of like sort of knew, you know– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –like it just was an, an unsaid thing. And Jeanne was extremely proud of him. She literally didn’t care. And it’s like so heartbreaking– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –because like so many people don’t have that support at home. And then for somebody with endless support, even from their own grandparents who’ve, who’ve gone through literal hell at like a concentration camp, and then to have something horrible happen to you, even though your parents like do everything in their power to care and protect– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: It’s just so disturbing. So his parents respected that he didn’t want to talk about it. Jeanne was proud of him either way, but now Raiah is like, “Shit, is this relevant?” Because like that Sam guy was crazy. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And she did not believe that Sam and Blaze would have randomly decided to hang out as friends. She later said in an interview that she considered Sam might have reached out for a hookup. But what terrified her is, just as you mentioned, she could also imagine him organizing a meetup with an express intent to hurt Blaze as a, a trap basically– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –an act of homophobic and anti-semitic hate. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: 'Cause remember he’s also a very, um, proud Jewish man. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: She hoped desperately that Blaze would be found unharmed, but she really– She’s, she’s one of those people where she will just say what she’s thinking, and she basically said, “I thought he’s dead.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: She was like, “I heard Sam Woodward. I heard he went to see him, and he hasn’t been seen, and I thought, ‘He’s dead.’” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: On January 9, seven days after Blaze vanished, investigators decided to search Borrego Park again. And they’d gone over what felt like every inch of ground, um, and they didn’t have any other leads, so they just looked one more time. It was cold out, and there was heavy rainfall that was shifting the dirt. And for that reason, they were able to find Blaze’s remains, which had been hastily buried under dirt and a large tree branch. 

Em: Hastily buried though. I would have– Had you framed the story earlier where that was the only information I had, I would have a-assumed, “Oh, this was a impulsive job, and someone di–“ 'Cause I would think hastily buried like you didn’t have a plan. 

Christine: It’s not premeditated? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I think just because of the fact that they’re like 20 and– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –he’s just clearly– 

Em: Not there. Yeah. 

Christine: –not there in, uh– with any humanity in him. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. Um, and he has some, he has some excuses, so we’ll get to those. Uh, the rain washed mud away to partial– Also, I think people overestimate how much of a hole they can dig. I’m not– 

Em: Right, sure. 

Christine: That sounds like ironic, but I– or like a joke, but I’m serious. Like I think people think like, “Oh, I can just dig a hole real quick,” and it’s like, “No, it’s a lot of work to dig a fucking hole.” 

Em: Well, they make it look so easy on– 

Christine: Yep. 

Em: They make it look so easy on a movie. And also dogs can weirdly do it in five seconds flat. 

Christine: Exactly. And it’s like there’s one of you, and you’ve already murdered a person. And now you’re like, “It’s dark out. I need to fucking dig a hole.” 

Em: Allison– 

Christine: Like even if you think it’s deep, it’s probably not deep. It’s probably shallow, and the rain can probably wash it away, you know. 

Em: Allison desperately wants one of those like free little libraries. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: And the f– on their first, uh– like on the how to’s on their website of like “How would you install this?” They’re like, “Oh, dig a two foot hole.” And I’m like, “I’m not fucking doing that.” [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Good luck with your free library. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, I also desperately wanted a little free library, and then my neighbors put one up, and I went, “Fuck me, I guess.” 

Em: Evil. 

Christine: Just kidding. I actually am very ha– 

Em: Look at us all– Just those readers over there, those dirty readers. 

Christine: I know. I’m actually just so happy they did. Um, it’s also the house with a rainbow flag, so I feel like “Okay.” 

Em: That’s allowed. 

Christine: Of all people, like you’re allowed to do that. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, anyway, they discover his remains. It’s something they didn’t expect because they really had searched and searched, but the rain had really washed a lot of the land out and they were able to spot his body. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And next to his body, they found his phone. They did an autopsy, which revealed that Blaze did not die of exposure or a wild animal attack. He had been stabbed over 24 times. 

Em: Holy crap. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: That is personal. I mean, it’s just rage. It’s just, um, total hatred for somebody. 

Christine: It’s– Correct. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Correct. He was stabbed over two dozen times in the neck and body. His hands were covered in defensive wounds. I mean, it makes me sick. Like Raiah, the investigators searching for Blaze felt something was off about this Sam. Yeah, no shit. Okay, guys. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Don’t say “like Raiah.” It’s like she already knew. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: She was like, she was like, “I know this fucking guy.” So they thought, “We get– better get back to this guy.” And thankfully, they had already kept tabs on him because they were surveilling him, and they watched him carefully clean out – hm – the interior of his car. That’s strange– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: –for a 22-year-old to be doing just, uh, for no reason. 

Em: Yep. 

Christine: Then they executed a warrant at his house where he lived with his parents, and they discovered – wouldn’t you know it? – a bloody knife. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Great. There was also still blood in his car, even though he’d tried to clean it. The blood in the car and on the knife was confirmed to belong to Blaze, and Sam Woodward was arrested under suspicion of murder. So in building their case against Sam, detectives discovered that Sam was a member of the Atomwaffen [pronounced “adam-vah-fin”]. I don’t know how to say this. Atomwaffen [pronounced “ah-tome-vah-fin] Division. I don’t even want to say it in German. It makes it sound worse. Um, so I’m not actually. Let’s take that back. 

Em: [laughs] Sure. 

Christine: Yeah. Somehow it makes it– like actually makes me want to throw up even more. 

Em: It’s like I was there. I could just– The chills ran down my spine. 

Christine: Yeah. I regret saying that out loud. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, it’s called the AWD, and it– it’s an international neo-Nazi terrorist organization. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Uh, right. None of us are surprised by this. Sam was an active and highly engaged member who specifically enjoyed engaging in acts of online violence against queer people. So he had really like that exact kind of crossroads– 

Em: And, and also, you’re, you’re a Nazi. I mean, what’s worse than a, a Jewish person to a Nazi? A gay one. Like, I mean, it’s just– 

Christine: Exactly. He found like the crossroads. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And he went to high school with this person, so he like knows of him, you know, and it’s like– 

Em: That’s so sick. And also like you would think because you went to school with him, you should like– Like he would be the one you have a shred of humanity for in some way ’cause you, you know what he’s like. You know his day-to-day. He’s not this monster you’re probably like spewing hatred towards. 

Christine: Yeah, but he’s going around saying that the Holocaust was wrong. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And we can’t have that. 

Em: No, no. 

Christine: [sighs] Okay. So, in building their case against Sam, detectives discovered that he was this member of this, um, AWD organization. He was very involved with it. And so, when the case finally went to trial in 2024, the prosecution sought a first-degree murder charge against Sam Woodward with the enhancement of a hate crime charge. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: If he were found guilty, Sam would face life without possibility of parole. Sam’s defense team did not contest that Sam killed Blaze because how could they? He had a bloody knife in his car. 

Em: [chuckles] Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Instead, they tried to lessen the sentence. And doing that, they said, “Oh, this was not premeditated, and it was not a hate crime.” 

Em: Who the hell– W-Who’s running this, this sham? 

Christine: Isn’t that interesting? Isn’t that intere– What a fucking racket, right? 

Em: Was, was one of his friends from that organization the judge that day? 

Christine: I mean, probably. Prob– Fucking prob– Well, the– Don’t worry, he didn’t get away with this. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So if that’s, if that’s helpful, but his, his lawyer certainly tried to lessen the charge. Um, they claimed– His lawyer claimed that he was not actually extremely dedicated to AWD or white supremacist Nazi ideology, which is like good start. 

Em: Mhm. 

Christine: Good start. They said Sam struggled to connect with other people and find community because of his autism and that made him vulnerable to AWD recruitment tactics. Sam joined AWD seeking human connection and socialization and friendship. Aw. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: a former member of the group testified that no one at the meeting Sam attended took the ideology very seriously. He claimed they mostly drank alcohol and socialized. But another former member testified that he attended meetings with Sam, and at these meetings, they created serious propaganda materials. To add to that, Sam was photographed at a meeting doing a Nazi salute alongside other members who were holding up a Nazi flag and other symbols. And the AWD itself, being this international organization, is directly responsible for several acts of violence in the US, and members have been documented actively recruiting on college campuses and even among the US military– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –um, because, of course, they value weapons training. 

Em: Course. 

Christine: Which is what– “Waffen” means weapons. It’s the AWD mission to– This is literally their– What do you call it? Uh, what do you– What’s a statement? A mission statement. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Their mission statement is to incite a “race war.” 

Em: Great. Super. 

Christine: Where is your mother? 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. Amen. 

Christine: L-like literally, where’s your fucking mother? 

Em: She’s probably in on it. She probably is– I don’t know. Is she? 

Christine: I gotta talk to her and put her– 

Em: Maybe she’s not into it. I don’t know. But she– It’s– It– Who knows how– 

Christine: She’s– 

Em: Maybe she’s incredibly involved in this and knows everything about it. 

Christine: Well, she’s gonna hear from me. 

Em: [chuckles] Okay. 

Christine: [chuckles] And I’m gonna say, “Why would you do this?” And that’s about it. That’s– [laughs] It’s like– 

Em: Yeah, truly. I mean, like it’s just– 

Christine: I’m gonna send someone else who’s better with confrontation. 

Em: Well, you know, in 2018, I mean, that was only two years into people being inciting– or inciting things in ways that they have never had to experience before. 

Christine: Inciting things. Fair point. 

Em: Um, it was, it was two years into this situation. 

Christine: and the fact that the trial was in 2024, like four years after COVID. Like I mean, it’s just so nauseating how like prescient and like timely and everywhere this is. And his parents talked about it in the documentary too. They said like, “What we’ve learned from this is that they’re everywhere. They’re fucking everywhere. They’re in the OC. They’re in the– They’re on college campuses. They’re, they’re everywhere.” 

Em: It’s, it’s, it’s horrifying. 

Christine: It’s horrifying. 

Em: Um, and I– You know, all of us kind of sit in our own echo chambers. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And so, uh, a lot of times in my mind there’s really– you know, we outnumber them. But then there’s times where I’m like, “My god, like it feels evenly matched all of a sudden or–“ Like– 

Christine: No, I know. It’s scary. And especially when you think like, “Oh, they’re recruiting in these ways that we don’t see.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: They’re recruiting online. They’re recruiting in places that we don’t necessarily see. College campuses, military, uh, environments, weapons tr– I mean, the weapons training alone is scary, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: For people who are like, you know– 

Em: Even just like red pill content like– I mean, I– Again, I think because I, I live in LA that I’m like in this like big blue bubble, but then all of a sudden I’ve– see there’s all these people that like I follow on social media and all of a sudden they’re posting like crazy shit. And I’m like, “Whoa!” Like– 

Christine: Well, they come out of the woodwork all of a sudden, and you’re like, “Uh-oh.” 

Em: I’m like, “I thought you were fucking chill. Like how many times have I been in a room alone with you, and like what were you thinking?” You know, like it’s so scary. 

Christine: And I also think like that points as well to things are shifting, and people are getting warped perspectives, and people are, like you said, getting red pill content and like changing their values or like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: You know, so even people that you might have thought ten years ago they would never have said something like that, it’s like, “Maybe they’ve gotten in some rabbit hole and now–“ 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: “–QAnon style, they’re like in this totally other universe.” 

Em: Yeah. 100%. It’s horrifying. 

Christine: Ugh, it’s, it’s horrifying. It’s horrifying. And I mean, all this stuff, like these hate crime things– I just remember being in high school and Matthew Shepard and all these things were happening. And I remember thinking like, “This will finally show people like how fucked up–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like we– I remember as high school kids we were all just like hor– I mean, just like the horror of it, and it’s like, “Eh, just keeps happening.” Like how much, man? Okay. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Alright. So their goal is to incite a “race war.” Cool, cool. Uh, it was difficult enough for the defense to try to sell AWD as this like– Okay, so now think about this. This is sort of like remin– Hear me out. Reminds me of the Cracker Barrel logo controversy. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. 

Christine: Because these lawyers are– 

Em: What do you say? What do you say? Speak on that. Speak on that. 

Christine: Speak on that. [laughs] Go on. Speak on it. Um, I will because I think I have to now. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Um, essentially what I’m trying to say is that the defense is trying to paint the AWD as this like spineless society where they’re just actually drinking beer and they’re not really strong enough or important enough or powerful enough to do anything like start a race war, right? 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: But of course, the people in the AWD are like, “What the fuck?” And the reason this reminds me of the Cracker Barrel thing is because everybody was like, “How dare you? You’re changing. Like you’re coming woke and all this shit.” And then the literal president of the United States (not a joke, listen to the Beach Too Sandy Cracker Barrel series about this.) Um, the president of the United States called the Cracker Barrel CEO and said, “You have to change the logo back.” Literally happened. Hours later, Cracker Barrel announced they were changing the logo back. And then everybody on the right said, “You spineless pieces of shit. The president tells you to do it, and you just do it?” And now everyone fucking hates Cracker Barrel. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So it’s like this like you can’t win, but like it’s with Nazis. 

Em: Ah, sh– Yeah. Well, you know what? It’s almost as if Nazis just don’t play fair. 

Christine: [laughs] Almost as if. 

Em: It’s, it’s– It could be that they are just not nice. I don’t know. 

Christine: Ancient alien theorists saying– 

Em: They’re not called “Nicies,” you know. 

Christine: Yes! [laughs] They’re not. 

Em: They’re not. I don’t know what to tell you. 

Christine: They’re not, not, not, not. 

Em: Man, that’s um– [sighs] Yeah. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. 

Christine: So, it’s like a challenge– Exactly. It’s a challenge because they’re like, “Oh, no, no, no. These are just like little boys. They don’t know what they’re doing.” But like the AWD, right? 

Em: Mhm. 

Christine: The one guy comes on and goes, “Nah, we really want weapons, and we wanna incite a race war.” 

Em: So insane. 

Christine: So, it’s like, “Okay, which one fucking is it?” Okay? 

Em: So insane. 

Christine: Uh, so it would be a challenge as well to convince a jury that Sam didn’t actively participate as an individual. Here’s why: they had proof– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –evidence that Sam traveled to Colorado to meet a man named James Mason. James Mason, uh, was an extremist writer, and his writings are the basis for many of the AWD tenets. He posed proudly for a photo with this man ’cause he clearly admired him. And he also traveled to Texas to attend what is essentially an AWD retreat. Kill me. 

Em: What the fuck are they doing at this retreat? 

Christine: You– I don’t want to know. I literally– Honestly, I don’t usually mean that when I say it, but I literally don’t want to know. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: 'Cause I think I have an idea. Um. 

Em: I think I have an idea too. 

Christine: Right. His computer was filled with anti-Semitic and homophobic content. The defense team tried to argue that “Well, he was struggling with his own sexuality,” which like you did– 

Em: Oh, shut the fuck up! 

Christine: I know. 

Em: Shut the fuck up. 

Christine: And it’s like this is the– This is the shit that– Yes. Yes. 

Em: I, I, I gotta say I think you, me, and Eva all combined have probably struggled with our sexuality at one point or another, and none of us have ever thought to do that. 

Christine: That’s– It’s so damaging like to propagate shit like that. 

Em: What– Like– I’ll– Yeah. I mean, all it does is just tell people that queer people are violent and like– 

Christine: Like closeted people are just gonna snap and stab somebody. Like what are you talking about? 

Em: Or open people. I mean, the propaganda this week about trans people– 

Christine: Fair enough. 

Em: –is like we are– we are responsible for most of the mass shootings? 

Christine: You can’t– 

Em: What the fuck? Who’s– Like who’s decided that we’re just gonna say things now, you know, that like are just so easily googleable. 

Christine: Yeah. Who decided words mean nothing? 'Cause it wasn’t me. 

Em: Fucking wild. No, I mean, all it does is say like, “Oh, well, they are queer, so therefore they’re violent, and therefore they should be taken out before they hurt us.” 

Christine: “And therefore, like we should–“ 

Em: I mean, it’s just– 

Christine: Yeah, we should be scared, but it’s just– Yeah, it’s– 

Em: It’s horrible. 

Christine: It’s horrible. So this is what they argued: that Sam grew up in a devoutly Catholic household. His mother testified that his father raised him to believe that homosexuality was a sin. Um, they claimed Sam’s fa– Sam’s father used homophobic slurs. Again, like a lot of dads do this shit, people. It doesn’t make you stab somebody 24 times. Sorry. A lot of gay– out gay people, queer people had shitty parents. Like, you can’t just tell me, “Oh, you had a shitty–“ Fucking join the club, fucker. 

Em: I mean– Again, all of us ha– are queer. All of us are– all of us on the– [chuckles] of the trio of the Gio’s Trio. None of us have– This has not ever once crossed my fucking mind. I got other things to worry about like– 

Christine: Like your own safety. 

Em: –kissing a girl. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Like kissing a girl. 

Christine: Yeah, like kissing a girl, and like, like your livelihood. 

Em: And like my livelihood, and like what– Like I’m too busy worrying about if people are ever gonna hurt me than to think about hurting somebody. Like what are you talking about? 

Christine: It’s just absolute total a– 

Em: I can’t ima– And– 

Christine: –ass– 

Em: And in some– 

Christine: –ass– What do you call it? “Assery”? 

Em: In some ways, I– Sure. 

Christine: “Dumbassery.” What do you– I don’t know. 

Em: Dumbassery? “Fuckassery”? 

Christine: Something like that. 

Em: I mean, let’s just start, just start putting cuss words together. I don’t know. 

Christine: Ugh. 

Em: Um, you know, there, there is a limit to my empathy for people who are closeted and like are struggling. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: If– 

Christine: You can’t just throw that out there like, “Oh, now they’ll fucking accept it.” 

Em: Like if– Like I, I feel for everyone that’s going through that, but if it turns into like this inward hatred where you’re now going to project it in– via violence, obviously I’d have a problem with you. But it’s also not happening, I don’t think, nearly as much as these people are trying to propagandize. 

Christine: No, and that’s like such a harmful trope that they always fucking pitch like, “Oh, well, like because you were closeted, that’s why you acted–” It’s like, “No, fuck you.” A-and like you know what his– 

Em: Or because you’re open and mad at everybody else for having a problem with it. Like it’s– It– 

Christine: Right, exactly. Like s– 

Em: It’s “because you’re gay and.” It doesn’t– Like that’s it. 

Christine: “And,” exactly. Thank you. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And like being queer does not obviously make you a good person. It makes you a better person. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] But it doesn’t make you a good person. 

Em: Makes you funnier certainly. 

Christine: Right. Like there are inherent good traits about you suddenly. But beyond that like no, it doesn’t mean you’re not a fucking bad person, a murderer, a liar. Like it doesn’t– a shitty parent. I know plenty of queer people in older generations– 

Em: I know a lot of gay people who suck, but you know what– 

Christine: Who are terrible people and tr– 

Em: They suck. 

Christine: –who, who hurt other people and who are– And it’s not– Whatever. 

Em: But, but like there’s a lot of ways I could find accurate stereotypes in queer people, and one of them is definitely not that they’re murderers. I’ll tell you that. 

Christine: Correct. There it is. That’s like literally– Show me any sort of proof of that really. Um. 

Em: Boom. 

Christine: You cannot. So, right. They’re claiming like, “Oh, well–“ And of course, it’s his mother saying, “Well, his dad didn’t like gay people,” and so she’s trying to cover for him. Um, unfortunately for Sam’s defense, and fortunately for the rest of us, that did not align with the fact that Sam actually kept track of his homophobic terror tactics in emails to himself. 

Em: Okay. And? 

Christine: And it was called “Sam’s Diary of Hate.” 

Em: Shut the– What is with the– Why do they all have manifestos? I’m so over this. 

Christine: Literal manifestos. And also like emailing yourself? That is so like 1998. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Get a Google Doc, you fucking weirdo. Stop emailing yourself in like 2024 or whatever. 

Em: [chuckles] Why not just– Like your LiveJournal, you know? 

Christine: Fucking Snapchat yourself, you dumb shit. So– 

Em: So he has a manifesto called his “Diary of Hate,” which isn’t even creative. 

Christine: Not even good. No, no, no. And in these emails, he describes downloading dating apps to find queer men and then he would terrorize them. He says– 

Em: Which like by the way– I’m sorry. I’m not, I’m not done. I’m sorry. 

Christine: Go on. 

Em: But like this is a, a lot of problems– How do I say this concisely ’cause all I want to do is ramble about this? A lot of the world’s problems [groans in frustration] are just– A lot of men out there are gay that don’t believe that they are or maybe they believe they are, but homophobia has caused so much actual violence in the way that if people were just open with themselves they wouldn’t hurt people. But instead they have these manifestos, and they think that they’re reacting normally. Like why don’t you just kiss a fucking man? Like there’s nothing gayer than being so obsessed with gay men that like– Just kiss a boy. Like shut the fuck up. Why are you killing people? 

Christine: Well put because when they say like, “Oh, well he was just closeted gay,” it’s like, “Mm.” We don’t even know that for a fact, but you’re right. Like this is getting weird, like the obsession with targeting gay men. 

Em: There’s– And like there’s, there’s nothing gayer than constantly thinking about gay men. Gay– Straight people think about gay people way more than gay people think about gay people. 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: I’m literally never thinking– 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: I’m literally never thinking about people being gay. It’s only straight people who just want to hurt us. In which case, why are you so obsessed with us? It’s ’cause you’re fucking gay. 

Christine: BTW, this is exactly right. Speaking of my friend Nichole, who did definitely guess about the butt portal, um, she’s psychic and stuff (uh, go listen to A Psychic’s Story) but she and I went to a show recently, like a live show, and, uh, we went and used the bathroom afterward. And this was a show where the audience was mainly women or girls. And so we saw the really long line, and we just thought, “Let’s just pop into the men’s room. There’s nobody in there.” 

Em: Mhm. 

Christine: Well, I should have known better ’cause we were in Indiana. And we walked out– 

Em: Welcome to hell. 

Christine: And this man said to me, “What the fuck are you doing?” And he got so in our faces aggressive, and he started saying, “You’re a predator. My son is a child. Like you’re a predator.” And I’m like, “Dude, I’m like drunk off two chardonnays. Fuck you.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like, what do you mean I’m a predator? Goddamn it. Why are you shouting at a woman? Like, Jesus, you’re a fucking predator. 

Em: Amen. 

Christine: Like you’re literally actively screaming at me, and you’re terrifying the shit out of me. 

Em: And your kid. 

Christine: I was peeing and washing my hands. Leave me alone. And your poor child is like, “I just am nine years old.” 

Em: Like again, obs-obsessed with queer people. For what? 

Christine: Like why are you even– Like for what? 

Em: Why are you s– Why are you so desperate to meet a queer person just to yell at them all the feelings you probably have about yourself? 

Christine: To scream. It’s like he was waiting. And it’s like, “We’re not even queer. We just like went in there to use a bathroom, and we were–“ I’m not saying we’re not queer, but I’m like, “We’re not–“ 

Em: Yeah. Yeah, you’re not a predator. 

Christine: We’re not making a statement. I’m not like in there to be like, “Look at me.” Like “Fuck off.” 

Em: And also– This is why the Republican Conference is like they’re– they have the highest, uh, Grindr t– points or whatever it is where like– It’s just– 

[both make jerking off hand motions] 

Christine: Yep. 

Em: Secretly banging each other. Just stop being homophobic. That’s literally– That would solve so many crimes is if people just accepted that they can kiss boys and no one’s gonna get mad about it. And you don’t have t– 

Christine: Just kiss who you want, you fucking– Stop it. 

Em: It’s like– Let’s– If you’re wondering if you’re queer or if you’re trying to hide it from yourself, let’s– Let me just tell you now, you’re the only one thinking about queer people this much. Like let’s, let– Once you’re op– 

Christine: Great. So, okay– 

Em: That’s the litmus test. [laughs] 

Christine: Eva and I talked about this at one point, and I, I don’t want to throw her under the bus. I will ask her to make sure this is okay. But like just as a vague idea, we were talking about deconstructing our past in– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –m-me, Catholicism, her, kind of, uh, the evangelical world. It’s far scarier in my opinion, but grass is greener, etc. Grass is less green. I don’t know. Um, and so she and I were talking about it, and, um, we talked about like how they would instill this fear of like if you have gay thoughts, impure thoughts. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And it’s like of course that’s ripe for someone like me who has OCD and is like, “Oh, shit. Like I can’t even think about certain things or else I will go to hell ’cause God’s always thinking my– reading my thoughts.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like, I mean, it really is such a fucking twisted, warped– You gotta just not let that rule your life because then you end up being a shithead Republican or a murderer. 

Em: Well, yeah. If you’re told– 

Christine: Or both. 

Em: –you’re dirty your whole life and then all of a sudden we see– like people like me and people like you are like, “I don’t give a shit what some book says is dirty–” 

Christine: Are glor– are like glorified and living their best lives. Like, yeah, you’re gonna feel resentful. Yeah, I get it. 

Em: It’s like, but if you’re, if you’re– if you don’t want to because you think it’s dirty or impure, that’s your life. But if you’re thinking you’re overcoming it– 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: –while still being obsessed with other people who are openly happy, that’s not my fucking problem. 

Christine: And also like I want to clarify, I don’t think he ever said he had any– He never said he had any like gay, gay leans. 

Em: No, I don’t think he did either. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I, I– My thought is just like he clearly has a manifesto of hate– 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: –where he has done this before. It’s like, “Why are, why are you constantly–“ 

Christine: Like he does this as a hobby, a pastime. 

Em: Yeah. So like your, your hobby behind the scenes when no one’s looking is just thinking about gay people all the time. 

Christine: Is talking and thinking about gay men. 

Em: Just– 

Christine: Like think about what that looks like. 

Em: Like that’s– There, there are straighter things to do than that. You know what I mean? Than thinking about gay men all the time. 

Christine: Like waaayy straighter. Like collecting guns. Just kidding. 

Em: Sorry. I know this is like so like we’re just beating a dead horse here, but I will beat the dead horse until it’s six feet under. 'Cause– [laughs] 

Christine: Like come on. As if we’re going to build a hole that– dig a hole. Build a hole. As if we’re going to be able to build a fucking six foot hole. Get outta here. 

Em: We’re going to dig a six foot hole, beat the horse until it’s in there, and then put my stupid little free little library on top of it. 

Christine: Ahhh! I was about to say, “At least we’ll have a place for your–“ [laughs] 

Em: Anyway, sorry. I, I know we like– I know we drove that point home a long time ago, but it’s a constant thought of mine. 

Christine: I give no shits. 

Em: It’s just like shitty people who are just so mad at gay people for seemingly no fucking reason. – It begs the question why you’re thinking so often about this. 

Christine: Thank you. Get a fucking hobby. 

Em: Unless you’re fighting it yourself. Unless you’re struggling with it yourself. 

Christine: Why are you thinking about it so much? Like– 

Em: It's weird. It’s fucking weird. 

Christine: Yes, it’s weird. 

Em: Like just don’t– 

Christine: It’s like when men think about like women all the time– 

Em: Like– 

Christine: –and they’re like trying to like– It’s like, “What are you doing?” Like s– 

Em: Yeah. I’ve never thought– 

Christine: Get a hobby. 

Em: I’ve never thought about gay people as much as straight people who hate gay people. I’m just like, “It’s not– You’re wasting your life.” 

Christine: 'Cause why? Right. 'Cause why– 

Em: Like– Just– Anyway. 

Christine: 'Cause it’s clearly emotionally charged for them, right? 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: 'Cause like they make that super clear. 

Em: I’m emotionally charged. I’m– I’ve said my piece like 10,000 times. We’re done. I’m sorry. This– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: Where– What happened next? Just get with the story. 

Christine: I think we knew– I mean, we knew we would get here. And also, I don’t give a fuck. Okay? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You know, I came back, I came back from Egypt. I don’t care anymore. 

Em: You’re like, “I’m a whole new person. I’m gonna say whatever the fuck I want.” 

Christine: I am. I am going to say whatever the fuck I want. 

Em: Good for you. 

Christine: Republicans are all gay, and I hate all of them. 

[laughter] 

Em: Certainly a lot more of them. 

Christine: Actually, so are all De– so are all Democrats. Fuck ‘em all. They’re all– Any– Anybody. They’re all gay. Fuck ‘em all. 

Em: Uh, certainly a s– 

Christine: I like how I say, “They’re all gay,” like it’s a fucking slur. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m like, “Fuck them. They’re all gay.” And it’s like, well– [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Honestly– Mm. 

Christine: To me, that’s a compliment. To them, no. 

Em: Every now and then, I, I still call things, uh, gay derogatorily ’cause I think it’s hysterical. 

Christine: It’s very funny. And you are allowed to say that, I believe. 

Em: Thank you. Uh, and I think it can be– 

Christine: Not that I’m allowed to give you that permission, but. 

Em: I think that could be the double entendre though is that a lot of men are gay, and like I mean it both ways. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Like they’re gay. [laughs] 

Christine: In the worst way. 

[laughter] 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: Um, yeah. Use their own insults against them, you know. 

Em: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. 

Christine: Well, it– it’s worth– 

Em: Sorry. Men are terrible. 

Christine: No, no, don’t be– Don’t apologize ’cause it’s worth– It’s so worth discussing because it just– It gets worse. Okay? 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So, he emails these men in this “Sam’s Diary of Hate.” And in the emails, he describes downloading dating apps to find queer men, and then he would terrorize them. He sent photos to other men of gay men being harmed, tortured, and killed. 

Em: Fucking sick. 

Christine: Sick. It was clear that Sam was actively using dating apps to target and terrorize members of the queer community. And in one email, he actually wrote to himself (again, pathetic) that– This is really hard for me to read in all seriousness, so forgive me, but here we go. Um, the email says, quote, “They’re terrified LMAO. One even said he was gonna report me to the FBI. Go ahead and try pal, this is too much fun. They think they’re gonna get hate crimed, and it scares the shit out of them. Pr– Fucking priceless.” Um, now the curse words before “scares the blank out of them” and “blank priceless” were fucking removed during reporting because apparently oh, that’s way too divisive. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Uh, but yeah, so I’m just kind of pretending what I think would be there. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But I– Either way, it says, “it scares the blank out of them. Blanking priceless.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And it was through Tinder that Sam and Blaze first made contact with each other. Blaze told Sam he was attractive, and Sam replied, “You’re not too bad-looking yourself, Blaze.” Sam asked Blaze if anyone was nearby. When Blaze said, “No,” Sam said, “I might make an exception for you.” So they moved their conversation to Snapchat– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –where Blaze sent Sam his address. Sam picked Blaze up, and shortly afterward, he took Blaze to the park. And that is where he stabbed him more than 25 times in the neck and legs. 

Em: [exhales sharply] 

Christine: Sam took the stand and was asked whether he ever in his life questioned his sexuality or considered he might be gay. Of course, he said no. 

Em: Mhm. 

Christine: He’s a confident straight man. [blows raspberry and makes a thumbs-down] 

Em: What? Okay. 

Christine: Bullshit. Bullshit. 

Em: I mean, again, as we’ve established, all homophobes are probably gay. At least a little bit. 

Christine: Correct. Well, I mean, everyone’s a little gay, right? But like– 

Em: But they’re more gay. [chuckles] 

Christine: If you’re so obsessed, there’s something wrong. Yeah, there’s so– Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So why else would he have met up with Blaze that night if not with the intent to harm him? In a final attempt at his own defense, ’cause none of this shit is working, Sam testifies that he was actually smoking marijuana on a bench with Blaze, and he started to fall asleep. This is where I get fucking furious, and I imagine Blaze’s parents were ready to, I mean, throw down. Because he says, “Oh, he woke up to the feeling of someone’s–“ He blames Blaze for– He says he was trying to sexually assault him. 

Em: Oh, fucking great. 

Christine: Great. He says, “I fall asleep on a bench, and all of a sudden, I felt my– someone’s hand on my crotch,” and he realized that he was– his pants were being unbuckled. Bullshit. 

Em: Shut the fuck up. So like now it’s self-defense. Is that– 

Christine: Now it’s his fault. Exactly. Exactly. 

Em: So he went out hoping to find someone to hurt and then feigns self-defense when he gets busted? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: ‘Kay. Just like a classic– 

Christine: I mean, yeah, literally. I’m like– I’m trying to think of any other way to pitch it. 

Em: –supervillain. 

Christine: But no, you’re right. That’s literally it. So– 

Em: So stupid. It’s like, “I’m gonna go walk into a house of fire and then– ‘Oh no, I got burned. It was not my fault at all. Whoops.’” It’s like just– 

Christine: Idiot. 

Em: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t even know how to compare the two. I’m just mad. I’m just so– So fucking stupid. 

Christine: It’s just bullshit because it’s like we already know– 

Em: I hate this man. 

Christine: –this is a bad person. Um, so he said all of a sudden, of course, the classic: that the gay people are just gonna, um, assault you, sexually assault you because they just can’t help themselves, right? 

Em: Of course ’cause not only are we all, uh, violent predators who should be taken out before we try to hurt you, but, um, we’re also all promiscuous, right? That’s how that goes? 

Christine: Well, okay. I, I remember one of my youngest like arguments I ever actually won with somebody, a fa– It was a family member and, um– like an extended family member, and they said something like, “Well, I wouldn’t want a gay man teaching my son. Like I wouldn’t want a gay– and preschool teacher, a man to be teaching my son.” And I went, “Why?” And they were like, “Oh, well, in case like he does something to my son.” And I was like, “But if you were straight, you’re not worried he would do something to your daughter?” 

Em: Yeah, exactly. 

Christine: “Or if it were a straight woman that he– she wouldn’t do anything? Or a–“ Like what kind of fucking logic is that? And I remember them– like the person– This was why I remember it. The person went, “Huh.” And I don’t think I’ve ever like had a moment in my life where a person I was arguing with just fucking shut down ’cause usually– 

Em: That’s beautiful. 

Christine: –I’m wrong no matter what. But like I just remember that moment of like, “I don’t have a comeback,” and I was like, “There you have it.” Um, but like fuck off. Yeah, okay. Actually– And that was after all the other shit didn’t work, right? So he’s like– If that really happened, wouldn’t you have said that right off the bat, you know? 

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Christine: Bullshit, bullshit. And then they don’t believe women, right? 'Cause– Anyway– [sighs] 

Em: [laughs] Let– Let’s, let’s unpack everything. 

Christine: So let’s talk about this. 

Em: Jesus Christ. The poor, the poor people who just want to hear this fucking story. 

Christine: They’ve left a long time ago. I wouldn’t worry about them, Em. Um, our poor team who has to listen to this, right? I’m sorry. 

Em: Jack, you’re a dream. 

Christine: Sorry, Jack. Um, so– Megan, etc. Okay, so why else would he have met, right? So like he claims, “Oh, well, I– Yeah, I just went, and I fell asleep. And then he put his hand on my crotch, and then I realized he was taking photos of me on his phone, and he said, ‘I got you.’” Like basically like trapping him. 

Em: I gotta sucker punch this guy right in the fucking teeth. 

Christine: I know. I know. Sam said Blaze was assaulting him, and he planned to use the photos to make people believe he was gay. I mean, again, get a grip. Sam said he then attacked Blaze in a state of terror and defense. He said that as he stabbed Blaze– This part I believe. The only true thing I believe. He experienced, quote, “An anger like nothing I’d ever felt in my whole life.” 

Em: Now, that I believe as well. 

Christine: Now, that I believe. That, that I believe. 

Em: But also– I’m so sorry, but– I mean, maybe I don’t know what it’s like luckily to have to, um, defend myself against an attacker, but I don’t think I’d stick around for 24 stabs. 

Christine: No. 

Em: You know what I mean? I’d go, “Yeah! Get away from me!” 

Christine: Hey, by the way, not if I were in something called the weapon Nazi group or whatever the fuck, the Nazi group where we have weapons training. 

Em: Boom. 

Christine: Like, please. 

Em: Yeah. I just like– I like– I’m waiting for– I don’t even know what I’m waiting for. I’m waiting for this to be over ’cause– [laughs] 

Christine: Me– I know. Me too. I know. Me too. 

Em: I’m just so upset. 

Christine: The defense’s overall tactic, as we can probably gather, was completely confused. So the defense argued that Sam was not that committed to AWD, which obviously seemed untrue. He’s traveling to meet these people’s like heroes, right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like the people who wrote– He, he goes out of his way to meet these people. Then the defense argues that he struggled with his own sexuality, which he denies on the stand ’cause he’s not gonna say he’s gay, right? 

Em: No. No, no, no. 

Christine: Exactly. Then they argue that he did not hate gay men. And then they’re like, “Well, what about his ‘Diary of Hate’?” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Like, like they’re– It’s an impossible task. 

Em: I don’t like food. What about your diary full of snacks? What are you talking about? 

Christine: What if your– Yeah, what about your Diary of a Foodie and how much I love food? 

Em: [laughs] What about your food magazine from high school? 

Christine: [laughs] Yes, exactly. What about that black and white photo of you in a chef’s hat? Huh? I’m gonna put that on the fucking thing. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Not even the forensics of the stab wounds on Blaze’s body aligned with Sam’s story of a self-defense attack on the bench, right? 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Like ’cause he’s claiming, “Oh, I woke up. I was all groggy ’cause of the weed. And then, uh, this guy attacks me, and I stabbed him.” No, none of that. None of that was– 

Em: What does that even mean? 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: He, he drugged you with the devil’s lettuce? Like you’ve first of all never had any, and second of all, it’s not how it works. 

Christine: Yeah, bullshit. 

Em: I’ve never even had any, and I know that that’s not how it works. 

Christine: E-exactly. I mean, you’re right. Like I think they were trying to go for the boom– maybe the boomer like– And I say that not disparing– disparagingly. I mean, I do say in this case disparagingly “not all boomers, okay?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: But, uh, like the idea of like, “Oh, well, it was weed. Oh no, then we know something satanic happened.” 

Em: Satanic panic. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. I think that’s what– It was like a Hail Mary honestly. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Like a last ditch effort. Good thing, spoiler alert, did not work. Okay, so after eight hours of deliberation, the jury declared Sam Woodward guilty of murder in the first degree. And in the courtroom recording, you can hear his mom– Uh, you can hear Blaze’s mom, Jeanne, exclaim, “Thank god.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: He was also found guilty of the hate crime enhancement, and he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. When asked about the trial, Blaze’s family was not – I love this – not interested, completely disinterested in confronting Sam. 

Em: Good. I love that. 

Christine: Jeanne said– This is the most powerful thing of all. Jean said Sam was meaningless to her. 

Em: [gasps] I love that. Good for her. 

Christine: That’s it. That’s why we’re saying– That’s why Em is saying if you’re obsessing over gay people, like that’s on– Look inward. Fucking look inward. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I went to Egypt. I figured out I’m not the fucking crème de la crème of everybody’s problems over here. Look inward. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Whatever my problem is is my problem. Nobody else’s. Like this is crazy making. And then she’s like, “I don’t give a shit about that piece of shit.” 

Em: I, I– There is an episode of Law and Order: SVU guest starring Ludacris. And– 

Christine: [laughs] Sorry, that is really not where I expected that sentence to go. 

Em: And I see– Basically Ludacris is his son’s half brother. And he’s like, he’s a bad guy. 

Christine: That feels right. 

Em: And Ice-T– Or Ludacris says something like, “Oh, you’re gonna wish I was coming back to your family. You’re gonna wish that I, you know, that you didn’t make an enemy out of me.” And Ice-T was like, “Oh no, after you walk away, I’ll never think of you again.” 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: And it’s just like– 

Christine: There’s such– It’s the best power move. 

Em: You just shut it down. It’s just like all the power you thought you gained from this, like you will never bother me. 

Christine: It feels like every Fallout Boy lyric, right? Like, oh, um– Like there’s a song called “I Don’t Care,” and it’s like, “I don’t care what you think about me,” or “I don’t care–“ Hold on, let me sing it. “I don’t care what you think as long as it’s about me.” 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: So, there’s such a power of like, “I don’t think about you, you know?” 

Em: Yeah. It’s very much the– like a, an, an egregious version of like when you ignore your sibling who’s trying to piss you off. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Like I imagine that feeling. It’s just like, “Oh, actually like you, you don’t even– There’s no space for you.” 

Christine: Yeah, ’cause the second you engage or react, then you’re suddenly like– 

Em: Feeding them. 

Christine: –feeding it. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yes! Oh my god, Em. We should talk more. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: We have so much in common. [laughs] 

Em: I– You know, I think I could do it for a few years. I don’t know about you. 

Christine: I’ll think about it. Okay. Uh, so Jeanne said Sam was meaningless to her. Love it. Love it. Love it. 

Em: I love that. Best part of this whole story. 

Christine: Blaze is– I mean, his grandmother who survived a concentration camp was still alive– is still alive. Like, think about she has to fucking watch this happen. Like– 

Em: I can’t even imagine the thought of like thinking, “Not only did I–“ Uh, well, I guess she didn’t escape the Holocaust, she endured it. And um– 

Christine: Oh, very fair. Yeah. 

Em: But to know that like I survived just for two generations later this to still be happening. 

Christine: To move to Southern California in a safe, quiet neighborhood. 

Em: The survivor’s guilt has to be crazy. 

Christine: My grandson goes to an Ivy League school. 

Em: I mean, the literal survivor’s guilt of “I survived the Holocaust, and my grandson– This happens to him.” Like, I mean, holy shit. I can’t– 

Christine: The way they talk about him is just beautiful. And I imagine that if you’ve– I mean, I couldn’t know. But I imagine if you’ve gone through that kind of a trauma like– Well, I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m not even gonna speak on it. I don’t have any room to speak on it. 

Em: It– It’s, it’s just so sad. It’s just so sad. 

Christine: So Blaze’s grandfather, Richard, said he didn’t need to look Sam in the eye, no interest. When asked why, he said– [laughs] I mean, these people are fucking kings and queens. Okay. When asked why, he said, “Because he’s a footnote in history.” 

Em: Oh, wow. I love that. 

Christine: Fuck yeah. And this is a neo-Nazi, by the way. Like, it’s not like, “Oh, he’s just a homophobe.” Like he’s also a neo-Nazi. 

Em: And the psychology of it too is that like a, a lot of people who join those organizations, they’re just desperate to be like the alpha or to be like– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –in charge of your life or to rule somebody– 

Christine: Power struggle, power dynamic. 

Em: –or to, to make you feel small. And it’s just like, “Well, no, you didn’t–“ 

Christine: To be a man, yeah. 

Em: “You could do all that, and you still didn’t do it.” 

Christine: Perfect. Perfectly put. 

Em: I think– I don’t know. 

Christine: People– No, people much stronger than you– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –who literally endured, like you said, the Holocaust. People much stronger than you literally don’t even wanna give you a fucking second glance. Don’t even wanna look you in the eye because you’re that pathetic. Like there it is. Good luck. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So, of course, because he was such a special– I was gonna say kid, but also man. He was 20 when he died. When his funeral was arranged, the attendees had to RSVP because the venue could only hold 1,200 people. And there was– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: So he’s that loved. 

Christine: So many people– Talk about not a footnote in history. 

Em: Hell yeah. That’s 12– That’s 1,200 plus people who are all gonna remember him personally. 

Christine: Get this. They held a second funeral in a large public venue, and that saw 3,000 people in attendance. 

Em: Holy shit. 

Christine: And I really love this– Again, like I, I hate to keep saying like a power move, but man, this is just like– They’re doing everything so meaningfully. The students from OCSA, the performing arts school he was in, performed the song, “Most People Are Good.” And I’m like– 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: –“Oh!” That just gives me chills. The park where Blaze played as a child and then died became a memorial to his memory. People began leaving painted stones dedicated to Blaze and his creative artistic spirit. And then people began painting and sending stones to the park from all over the world. 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: So it wasn’t just local people. Yeah. People would mail these stones in to put a permanent memorial in the park. Every single person who met Blaze remembers him as someone larger than life. In his college admissions essay, he wrote that every version of himself lives on in his writing. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: I’m sorry. This is hard to read. Um, this is a quote from his college essay. Remember he got into an Ivy League school. 

Em: Mhm. 

Christine: “As I change, my words change, but even after days or months or years I can still find a version of myself (a time traveler from the past, present, or future) sitting there in the text and waiting to speak to me.” Hello? A 17-year-old wrote that? 

Em: 10 out of 10. 

Christine: Many people still seek inspiration, passion, and joy in Blaze’s published pieces, and his memory persists as a force of good in the world. His mom said, “Blaze’s memory and spirit will live on in every kind deed done in his honor.” And his loved ones basically just ask that people do acts of good and think about Blaze, especially to protect and uplift people in marginalized communities. And in– It was really sweet. In the documentary, his dad was like– No matter where he was sitting and which interview he was in, he was always wearing like this– it either was like a rainbow shirt or like something– Like you can just tell that they’re just so passionate about this. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And it’s sad and special. Jeanne said, “Blaze’s life mattered, and he has a legacy to create good news, to inspire people to be better, to be kinder, and to work on repairing the world. Because it’s not too late, and we can make it better.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And to have parents who’ve lost their eldest son to such a violent and horrific hate crime to say “it’s not too late to fix the world”– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –like that to me is a very powerful statement. 'Cause sometimes I think it’s too late, and I’ve not gone through anything remotely like that, you know. 

Em: Yeah. I– The, the, the level of um– I don’t know. Compassion? Patience? 

Christine: Yes. Yeah. 

Em: I don’t know what the right word is, but I don’t have it. 

Christine: I think compassion is a great word because it’s like we can fix this for other people hopefully, you know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And I think that we see it a lot with survivors’ families– or not survivors, victims’ families or survivors of, of violent crime where they’re like, “How can we use this for good?” Which I just always am like, “This is why love always wins.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: I know it’s cliche. 

Em: And homophobes are always gay. 

Christine: [laughs] But I– It’s like I almost don’t want to give them that. I’m like– 

Em: Uh, I’ll do it. 

Christine: –“You wish.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: I’m like, ”You fucking wish you were part of the club, you piece of shit. You just wanna be gay.” 

Em: Maybe that’s why you stay in the closet. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: You stay in the closet ’cause you just know the other gays wouldn’t like you. 

Christine: Yeah. You’re not cool enough. 

Em: Yeah. Uh– 

Christine: No, it’s just– It’s just like it sucks that I remember– Like it sucks that we probably all remember the Matthew Shepard thing, and– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I mean, at least it, it just was such a horrific thing and like of course has been happening forever– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –since the dawn of humankind. But just that the like the absolute– I think it was also probably the timing, right? Like we were what? Like freshmen in high school or like eighth grade or something? Like we were– 

Em: I don’t remember what year, but I remember growing up hearing his name. 

Christine: It was a very, um– It was like a very– What’s the word? Like a very, uh– A time where we were very, uh, vulnerable to– 

Em: An innocent time? A time of innocence? 

Christine: Not innocence but like molding. Like, like it was a very– 

Em: Formative years? 

Christine: –formative. Yes, it was a very formative time. And I remember the Matthew Shepard– and like at school, we would– We made these posters and like– Sort of like you, I went to this private school, and I remember like even at my Catholic private school, we were all like horrified, and like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –even the fucking religion teachers, you know? Because this was like such an extreme. I mean, of course, every case like this deserves that much of respect and attention and horror, but I just remember being like, “Certainly this will make people realize.” And it’s like, “Cool. We’re in– We’re past COVID–“ I mean, past COVID. “But we’re five years post-COVID. There’s still trials for this shit where we’re just saying, “Oh, he’s closeted. That’s why you stabbed him 25 times. Oh, he assaulted him because he’s gay.” 

Em: And also like– 

Christine: Like fuck off. 

Em: Also I don’t understand the argument of like, “Oh, well it’s ’cause he was closeted.” It’s like, “So now do you want someone to have compassion for gay people all of a sudden when that was like your whole shtick is that well, you hate gay people ’cause you’re closeted?” It’s like, “Wait a minute.” 

Christine: So the only thing they wanted was to like make it– So the only reason they did that is because they didn’t want it to be a hate crime. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Because if it’s a hate crime, then the sentencing is so much worse. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So their whole thing was, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. He killed him. But it’s ’cause he was gay, and so it wasn’t a hate crime ’cause he was gay.” 

Em: I see. 

Christine: Didn’t work. 

Em: Good. 

Christine: 'Cause also he said, “I’m not gay.” 

Em: I love how like you would– You hate gay people, and so all of a sudden, like maybe being one would save your life. 

Christine: [chuckles] I know. 

Em: Like what the fuck is going on? 

Christine: Literally. I know. I know. I know. I know. 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: It’s so fucking predictable. Anyway– 

Em: And also isn’t that like pretty directly, um, parallel to Matthew Shepard? Wasn’t he also tricked into going on a date with somebody? Or was he, or was he–? 

Christine: I think he was lured– 

Em: Lured. Okay. 

Christine: –into– Yeah. Into like a– some sort of– 

Em: Lured. That’s the right word. I– Not tricked into going on a date. 

Christine: –social– Well– 

Em: That’s what got Allison. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] But I think he was so young. I think he was, I think he was like– I think he was lured into a– And you know like– I don’t know. I have nothing else to say. I’m just like– It’s– You know, we’ve said what we need to say “tenny”– 

Em: Uh, w– 20 times. We’re– 

Christine: –20 times. 

Em: We’re in– 

Christine: I said tenny, tenny times. 

Em: We’re in overwhelm– in a, in a state of overwhelm. 

Christine: Oh my god. He died in 1998. Why am I pretending like I was in high school? I was seven years old. But maybe that’s why I find– found it so horrifying. 

Em: I, I reme– I still remember growing up hearing his name, so. 

Christine: Man. 

Em: Yeah, that’s rough. 

Christine: Man. So that’s that. Um, really sick. Really sickening. Uh, I know it’s tough, and I’m sorry because I know that this is true crime, and no true crime is ever gonna be easy-breezy, mac and cheesy. Um, but, you know, it’s important we talk about the spectrum of them if we’re gonna talk about it at all. Um– 

Em: Mm-hmm. And I mean, it’s also– Not that you did this on purpose, but is it incredibly topical given the red pilling alt-right neo-Nazi organizations that are quite abundant in 2025. If you could tell all of our World War II grandfathers that um, that– 

Christine: Well, mine would be thrilled. 

[laughter] 

Em: Oh my– Okay, so everyone but Christine’s grandpa. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: If you told mine, he, he’d– 

Christine: Grandpas. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Sorry, plural. 

Em: Ohh-ho-ho-ho-oh… Christine, you come from such a tragic life. Uh– 

Christine: Can I tell you something? 

Em: What? 

Christine: This is part of my Egypt thing. I’m like, “What the fuck? My grandparents were Nazis. I’m not gonna pretend like they weren’t.” I’m so sick of this shit. I’m sick of everyone being like, “Uh, our family was actually completely different ’cause our family would never do that. And we were just forced to do it.” Fuck you. 

Em: You know what would– they would fucking hate though? This is your own personal redemption is that, uh, a grandchild of Nazis is, uh, friends with a grandchild of people who escaped the Holocaust. So– 

Christine: Okay. So I’ll do you one better, no offense. I feel that this is a power couple we’re doing, but multiple of my cousins have married Black men, Je– Orthodox Jewish men, women. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m talking girl cousins. 

Em: Good. 

Christine: And I’m like, “Oh, they’re already– They’re turning in their graves so hard that nothing I can do can like–“ 

Em: Well, it’s what they say like karma likes comes in threes or something. It’s a– Or k– things comes in threes. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It’s like, “Well, for every bad thing you did, we’re just gonna ha– give you multiple grandkids who are just gonna do the exact opposite–“ 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: “–of what you would have hoped for them.” 

Christine: It’s so– It’s such a power move. And now that I’m finally doing my like genealogy, I’m like, “I don’t– Like I wanna know.” Like nobody wants to know. Everyone wants to cover it up. No, I’m done with that. I’m done with that shit. And, um, hey, here’s me saying that. 

Em: Good. 

Christine: I hope, I hope, I hope everyone– 

Em: Join me– 

Christine: –listens ’cause– 

Em: Join me on Ancestry. 

Christine: –I don’t care. Okay? You can come at me and say, “Don’t say that about your grandparents.” Okay, then you d– explain. You explain why they’re in a Nazi uniform in their wedding picture. 

[laughter] 

Christine: Tell me. I’d love to know. 

Em: You know what? If anyone has a problem with you rebuking your shitty grandparents, which I don’t think you’re gonna find in our community, um– 

Christine: I mean, you’re gonna find it in my community, and I will say they’re gonna find me, and that’s fine because I have an alarm system. 

Em: Let ‘em. Let ‘em. 

Christine: Use the promo code “drink” for SimpliS– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, but seriously, I– Like when I said like I’ve texted Em about it a bit, but like when– Actually at the air– at the Delta Lounge when I was like leaving for Egypt– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –um, I was texting you about it. My extended family got involved in some family drama and tried to get involved, and I’m like, “You know what? I’ve actually– am so done being scared of these people.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I don’t give a shit. I’m done being scared of them. Hey, they were all Nazis. What the fuck am I doing like hiding that from anybody? 

Em: Yeah. Y– I, I think Nazis are the last people that um– 

Christine: I’m done with that. 

Em: –that need s– 

Christine: They don’t need protection. 

Em: –need protection. 

Christine: Exactly, Em. Exactly. 

Em: If they’re as, if they’re as tough as they think they are, they don’t need anyone protecting them. 

Christine: Thank you. Thank you. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Closeted gay or not. 

Em: Yeah. And they’re dead. So like– Aren’t they? 

Christine: They’re literally dead, thankfully because– 

Em: So who cares? Like what? What? Their reputation? Cancel culture? They’re dead. It’s fine. 

Christine: And if like– If you feel it reflects badly on you, once again, look inward. 

Em: Look within. 

Christine: Right! 

Em: Look within. [laughs] 

Christine: Hey. This is the last episode ever of And That’s Why We Drink because we’ve peaked– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and we’ve said, we’ve said the wisest, stupidest shit we’ve ever said, so. 

Em: All we’ve done is repeatedly for like three hours said, “Homophobe people– H-homophobes are gay. Nazis are bad.” And that’s kind of it. [laughs] 

Christine: Remember when I went– It’s like when I– It’s like when people study abroad for a semester and they come back. Like I went to Egypt for two weeks, and I’m like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –“Everybody, I’m a changed woman. Listen up.” [laughs] 

Em: Again, Christine is riding a dopamine high that I’m so jealous of. 

Christine: I am. [laughs] I am. 

Em: I’m so jealous. I would love a dopamine rush like that. 

Christine: It’s just so freeing. You can do it, Em. 

Em: I, I know. Like I gotta get me a– 

Christine: You know how to do it? You just stop giving a fuck! 

Em: [laughs] Or I go to Egypt. 

Christine: And you know what you realize? You know what you realize? 

Em: What? 

Christine: Nothing fucking matters. You know I’ve been saying that for so long. 

Em: I know. That’s one of your catchphrases. 

Christine: What are they gonna do? What are they gonna do? We’re white people. Like we’re fucking in the most privileged position. I can fucking do what I want, and I’m gonna tell you that my grandfathers were Nazis, and I think part of my life mission is to fucking call that out and get it out and fucking work on that shit. 

Em: Good for you. 

Christine: Sorry if you have a problem with that. Again, look within. 

Em: I don’t think anyone here is gonna have a problem with that. 

Christine: Take a fucking min– I mean, maybe not here, but– Actually, I do, Em, actually. 

Em: If there’s, if there’s a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer who listens to our show, you can just go right to hell. 

Christine: Em, I think you’d be surprised. 

Em: Well. 

Christine: Because sometimes we get comments where people are like, “Oh my god, these girls are so funny until I heard XYZ.” And I’m like, “You are not listening very closely.” [laughs] 

Em: Well, then wel-welcome. Thanks for finally tuning in after 300 episodes. 

Christine: [yelling] Can you hear me now? 

Em: Um, no, I remember in the beginning someone being like, "I really like the show, but I can’t stand the gay one.” [laughs] Back when there was only one of us. 

Christine: [gasps] [laughs] 

Em: And I went,”Well, I– You’re gonna hate the rest of it. You might as well stop listening now. I don’t know what to tell you.” 

Christine: Gay only evolves from there, you know. 

Em: Yeah, it only gets worse. [laughs] 

Christine: It only gets worse. Like gay is the beg– 

Em: I only grow in power. 

Christine: Right. Gay is just like the– dipping a toe in, man. 

Em: [laughs] It’s just one– 

Christine: I’m only bisexual. I’m at the very little tippy edge of it. 

Em: No, there– the, the full gamut, uh, is in session at all moments with us, so. Um– 

Christine: It is in session. 

Em: Where are– How do we end this? 

Christine: With a bedazzled gavel. [thumps table with hand] 

Em: O– Do you have one? 

Christine: Court adjourned. 

Em: [makes gavel motion at camera] I don’t know how to clank. How do you– Is it a clank or a thud? 

Christine: Well, think about– [gasps] I have a fun fact. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I’m gonna tell you in, I’m gonna tell you in Yappy Hour because the fun fact is how– which I just learned – how they made the Law and Order: SVU like “bom bom” and all that. 

Em: Oh. Hell yeah. Okay. 

Christine: [sings the Law and Order: SVU theme song] ♪ Doo doo doo-doo doo-doo doo ♪♪ 

Em: How they made the song? 

Christine: So not the song, like the actual melody– 

Em: But the sound. 

Christine: –but those sounds in the background. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: You are literally not in a fucking million years gonna guess. You’re not gonna guess. It was on a podcast where you’re supposed to figure it– It’s called Lateral with Tom Scott, and you’re supposed to– they– He has guests on, and they ask like a question that’s like– You have to kind of laterally think to get the answer. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And it’s like usually a couple comedians trying to figure out like what the answer is. And the way that this blew my mind, um– 

Em: Okay. Hell yeah. I wanna know. 

Christine: I’ll tell you in the Yappy Hour. So if anyone is– gives a shit, come join us. 

Em: I’ll be there. I don’t know if anyone else will– I’ll be there. Oh, man. 

Christine: Em’s contractually obligated to be there, so if you want to join, go to patreon.com/– 

Em: [whispers] atwwdpodcast. 

Christine: –atwwdpodcast. And, um, we can’t wait to talk to you. 

Em: And, um, for more scatterbrained but very valid views, tune in next week, I guess. [chuckles] Y– Who knows what we’ll talk about then. 

Christine: But very valid, very valid. 

Em: Very valid. Very frenetic, but very well-intentioned also, uh, for the, for the, for the good people out there willing to listen. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s well-intentioned. 

Em: And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink.

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