E345 Baba Yaga Barbie and Emergency Needlepoint
TOPICS: BABA YAGA, THE LOST BOYS OF BUCKS COUNTY
Baba Yaga in her mortar and pestle. From Andrew Lang’s The Red Fairy Book.
Baba Yaga’s House with chicken legs.
Dean Finocchiaro
Mark Sturgis
Thomas Meo
Jimi Patrick
Episode 345 is here and we're feeling ancient demon vibes... First Em covers the iconic Slavic folklore of Baba Yaga. Then Christine covers the tragic, gruesome case of the Lost Boys of Bucks County. And is Em a gossip witch? ...and that's why we drink!
Be sure to check out our case updates and paranormal news in After Hours on Patreon!
Transcript
[intro music]
Em Schulz: Oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Hello.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's you again. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I'm here, are you?
Em Schulz: Not mentally? [laughter] I don't know what's going on.
Christine Schiefer: We're. I... Are we together mentally? 'Cause I'm not feeling it. I don't know what's up. Em was like, "Are you having a good day?" I was like, "I am. Thank you." But my attitude doesn't show it.
Em Schulz: Oh. And neither do your eyebrows. Your eyebrows say, "Today's the day to fuck someone up."
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, you know.
Em Schulz: And I don't mean it in a... They just look like darker than usual. So I think that just means they look stronger to me. And like, not in a...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Not in a, I promise, not in a bad way.
Christine Schiefer: No, no.
Em Schulz: But they really, they, I feel like they change your face a little bit and therefore it changes your personality a little bit...
Christine Schiefer: Whaa..
Em Schulz: And you've kind of got like badass power kind of radiating off of you.
Christine Schiefer: Finally.
Em Schulz: But I'm also a little threatened by it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good.
Em Schulz: So.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent. Yeah. I, uh, I, it was an accident.
Em Schulz: In a good way. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I drew by accident four inches of eyebrow onto myself. And I'm talking vertical, like, I swear it was like [laughter] It was like I had, I don't know, giant.
Em Schulz: Like you fell down the stairs with your eyeliner pen.
Christine Schiefer: With my eyeliner, yes. Umm, it really was chaotic. And I looked at myself and thought Groucho Marx, and then I cleaned off the rest of it. Umm, as much as I could.
Em Schulz: But they look good, I'm just...
Christine Schiefer: But it's clearly still showing through. So.
Em Schulz: And like but in like a positive, intimidating way.
Christine Schiefer: I appreciate that.
Em Schulz: Where I'm just kind of...
Christine Schiefer: No, it's a great compliment. Umm.
Em Schulz: Kind of thrown by your energy.
Christine Schiefer: As long as you have no estheticians. Take a closer look. Don't zoom in. It's not pretty [laughter] I literally just take a dark brown thing and color like my baby does.
Em Schulz: Well, remember my, apparently, my zoom settings where I had like eyebrows on all the time. So.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh I was so excited about that when your eyebrow would go rogue and would just like, take off your face [laughter] and I was like, Em something very, very strange and unusual is happening in your neck of the woods.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That was not positive intimidation. [laughter] That was just positively fucking stupid.
Christine Schiefer: It had a [laughter], it had a mind of its own. I remember, I'm pretty sure we named the episode a rogue eyebrow, which is probably the funniest thing we've [laughter] ever come up with. Oh. How are you?
Em Schulz: Well, I feel the same way as you.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that weird?
Em Schulz: Nothing's really going on. I feel like there's probably a... I feel like there's probably a lot of small factors adding up to me just kind of feeling meh.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Like, am I depressed? I don't know. Like, that's kind of just the daily question I ask myself. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: What else is new. I was gonna say, that's the least of my worries.
Em Schulz: Yeah. No, I just, I feel overwhelmed, but don't know by, what? And I just, I think I'm a little on edge, and...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Me too. I feel on edge. I'm like, kind of like jumpy, not jumpy, but like, kind of like frenetic. I don't know my... I'm just off-kilter, you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: That's a good... That's a very interesting way to put it. And I like it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like your eyebrow kind of like just off the wall.
Em Schulz: She's not off-kilter. She's off the paint.
Christine Schiefer: The planet [laughter]
Em Schulz: She's off the screen. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: She's up with xenon in a different universe.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Umm, I treated myself recently. I got myself a tie-dye kit. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh fine.
Em Schulz: And I was like, "You know what? I think maybe this weekend I'm gonna have to treat myself to a little tie-dye party."
Christine Schiefer: Did you make that?
Em Schulz: And that, I'm... No, no, no. I haven't done it yet.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, "Holy shit. Look at your shirt. It's incredible."
Em Schulz: I didn't even realize I was... That was subliminal that I saw my own shirt and started... Talked about tie-dye.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it matches your magician's curtain. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, just, I'll only do it because I know you're feeling it, a little bit of a funk, but, uh, just so you can make fun of me again, I bought another shirt that represents one of the local high schools around here...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And I'm collecting them and I feel like a little creepy about it, but I was...
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what?
Em Schulz: When I first, I like...
Christine Schiefer: This is new to me.
Em Schulz: Burbank Bulldogs.
Christine Schiefer: This is [laughter], this is new to me. I didn't know you do this.
Em Schulz: I was, well, not like it was totally on purpose, but I, when we first moved here, I was telling Allison like, "I really wish I was like part of a community out here." Not like, "I wanna be part of the high school out here."
Christine Schiefer: With children? [laughter] Okay.
Em Schulz: No, like...
Christine Schiefer: I was like, ummm.
Em Schulz: But we happen to be at like Walmart and you know, like a lot of local Walmarts, like, have the shirts.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yes the local... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: So I was like, "Oh, I guess like, now that I live in Burbank, this is the first like Burbank shirt I've seen that I can purchase." So I bought it and now I just like am weirdly collecting 'cause anytime I see a shirt that says Burbank, I just buy it and I can't stop myself. So...
Christine Schiefer: So are you gonna like send your future kid to Burbank just so you have like an excuse to have all these shirts?
Em Schulz: No, I think this is a temporary, uh, situation.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: It will one day probably be Goodwill-ed, but I just, I saw the shirt 'cause it was tie-dye and then it, of course, that I realized what it said and I was like, Oh, okay. Apparently I... am a graduate of Burbank High School it seems.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're like an alum. You're like an honorary alum. [laughter]
Em Schulz: [laughter] I don't know what my problem is. Like there was, umm, we went to CVS recently and they had like, sorry CVS if you're a listening, but they're like, T-shirt selection is like always really janky.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And they had a bunch of shirts that just like looked, it said just Burbank on it and it was in like the worst font ever. It was like heat-pressed, like, at an angle.
Christine Schiefer: I want that. I want it.
Em Schulz: It was like so bad. But I was like, "Well it says Burbank so I'm gonna buy it." And so that seems to be my habit. And now I'm just...
Christine Schiefer: What in the world. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm just collecting shirts.
Christine Schiefer: Does that mean I can finally make it as a T-shirt maker, 'cause if you bought that at CVS, I feel like I could sell you anything. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If you make it say Burbank, apparently I'll just purchase it.
Christine Schiefer: I'm in, I'm on it.
Em Schulz: And then I don't even care what it says. Uh, I did see someone wearing a shirt that said like, "My child is the... On the honor roll." Like, like some random school. I was like, "Now that's a shirt I haven't collected yet." [laughter] I was like, "That seems a... "
Christine Schiefer: My child is on the honor roll. [laughter] Yeah, I sure hope not.
Em Schulz: I'm just creating a whole persona for myself apparently. But I...
Christine Schiefer: This is so fascinating.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I saw tie-dye, I saw Burbank, I made a purchase and then I went, "Oh my God, it's another fucking high school shirt." Like, "What is wrong with me?" So anyway, I was trying to give you something to laugh at while you're not feeling totally...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's very entertaining and I feel like I haven't glimpsed this aspect of your personality yet. So I feel like I'm learning all about you.
Em Schulz: I don't know what my deal is. Anyway, so as soon as I decided I wanna be like wearing Burbank merch, it just, every time I find one, it's just worse than the last. Like the CVS one was the most recent purchase and that was crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah. Well it sounds like it was a poor decision, but I really do support it. Umm.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So if for what it's worth, I always support like a questionable purchase, especially from a CVS. [laughter] So, umm, that's kind of my thing.
Em Schulz: It's my favorite one so far. I feel like now that I know CVS has like really bad shirts.
Christine Schiefer: That's incredible.
Em Schulz: I'm probably gonna start throwing away all the high school ones, 'cause like why do I have them? I don't know, but like, I can't stop myself either.
Christine Schiefer: Like nobody knows the answer and please don't ask that 'cause nobody knows [laughter]
Em Schulz: There have been... The best part though is it's kind of becoming this weird, uh, like, not really like a scavenger hump. Like, I like to like mentally tally every time that while I'm in Burbank, someone sees my shirt and goes, "Burbank High School!" And I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I was gonna say when...
Em Schulz: And then I have to play along.
Christine Schiefer: What are you gonna do if somebody approaches? Now I realized somebody has, and you continue to wear and purchase them. So I guess...
Em Schulz: And they'll literally... They'll... I just like, I can't exp... I don't know what to say. I'm just like, "Yeah."
Christine Schiefer: Well, no, you can't just say, okay, now you can say, "Oh, head to And That's Why We Drink episode," whatever the fuck this is.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: And then they'll finally understand what your problem is.
Em Schulz: No, I... 'cause even I don't know the context, I'm just like, "I don't know man. I like the shirt. I picked it out." But yeah, it makes no sense.
Christine Schiefer: At CVS, by the way, [laughter]
Em Schulz: At CVS.
Christine Schiefer: I was shopping for clothes at the CVS.
Em Schulz: I was just going through like all the racks and... And I found a shirt that looked kind of wild enough to wear.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the Corduroy of shirts. It's like... It's like crooked. It's like missing a button. It jumps on the mattresses at night.
Em Schulz: Anyway, if you wanna make me the wildest Burbank shirt possible, you can put anything on it. I would wear it.
Christine Schiefer: Do you have an idea like, I'm going to do it so hard. You're gonna not even understand how much you've always been missing this shirt.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Next time you're having a full-on like episode of whatever is going on with you.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Just you could put a bunch of frogs on a shirt and have them spell out Burbank or something and I'll wear it.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, what the fuck, now you're making it complicated. I don't know how to do that. [laughter] I was just gonna put comic sans on it, but sure. I guess I'll have frogs writing it out.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I was just about like, whatever random decision you make will only make it better, but...
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Anyway, I'm glad you and your very normal shirt are having a better day or...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: I don't know. A better wardrobe.
Christine Schiefer: It's better wardrobe, certainly. Thank you for setting the bar very low for that. I would like to say, oh, I had something to say. Oh yeah. So for our Patreon, we're now doing this thing called After Hours, And That's Why We Drink After Hours and it's where we like recap any true crime or paranormal or spooky things that we've come across in recent news that we don't have time for on the podcast. Umm. So I just wanna give that a little shout out. However, last episode we did go on like a half hour personality...
Em Schulz: I'm so sorry.
Christine Schiefer: Quiz journey. To find out that we're both... Well, I don't wanna spoil it 'cause it's the only surprise part of this whole bonus. But to find out whether we're like chaotic, good, chaotic, neutral, the other ones I don't remember. Umm, but so today Em, I mean, I don't know, I know you had something you had in mind, but today I was thinking we could use this app I got called Necrophonic.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's basically like a... I paid $9.99 for it, so we have to use it somewhere. Uh, it's basically a spirit box app that like you... That sweeps through the radio and you can use it to communicate.
Em Schulz: Oh!
Christine Schiefer: So I thought we could do like a little ghosty adventure on our After Hours session today.
Em Schulz: Like that's not our ghost adventure, it's just our ghosty adventures.
Christine Schiefer: Our gho... It's different! Lawyers, okay?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So I don't know, I thought that might be a fun thing. I wanted to tell you about my new app and I thought that was a good excuse to use it so we can...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Okay, let's do it. Yeah, definitely.
Christine Schiefer: Otherwise I'm drinking a nice Liquid Death, rest in peach tea. And how are you doing? Are you good? Are you fucking ready to rock and roll?
Em Schulz: I'm good. I've got my water. I feel like I'm part of my community 'cause I'm wearing a shirt that says Burbank.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So I mean, that's all you really need in the world. I guess. [sigh] Alright...
Christine Schiefer: It's really special. Yeah, it is, a community of like-minded high schoolers. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Trust me if... I hate it, like let's not...
Christine Schiefer: You don't hate it...
Em Schulz: That was not...
Christine Schiefer: That much. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I just wanted a shirt that said Burbank. It was the first one I found at Walmart and then I found another in CVS. I don't know, so.
Christine Schiefer: I get it. Listen, I get it. I'm not, I'm just giving you a hard time, umm. I'm razzing you.
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's working. 'cause now I'm like paranoid that it's sending the wrong message entirely. But... [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: No it's not. It's not. I'm just fucking with you. I like it. There's a high school near me that has, I don't know why I'm suddenly getting all weird about, 'cause I live in Newport, Kentucky. There's a Newport High School and I'm like, "I haven't checked CVS for any clothes, but I could."
Em Schulz: You might find some really good stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I feel like... I have a two-year-old at home, so they're gonna be like, "Who in your life goes here?"
Em Schulz: Imagine if there was a shirt, you know, it's like, "My kid is the... Is on the honor roll," blah, blah, blah. What if you had a shirt that said, "My kid is a future student at... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's cute. "My toddler is on the honor roll suckers". I'll put that.
Em Schulz: What if you got her a shirt of Newport High School and it said "future valedictorian".
Christine Schiefer: Wait, now that is called manifesting is what that is.
Em Schulz: I know what that is...
Christine Schiefer: And also getting her probably bullied, but that's okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's all in the name of college admissions. Okay. Your turn.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm just kidding guys. She's two. She probably won't even go to school there. Okay. Don't stalk me.
Em Schulz: Well, I know. Anyway, we could just go on forever and ever about that. Okay, so here I have a story for you. She, capital S, is a folklore, a Slavic folklore.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Umm. And I, you might have heard her name before. Her name is Baba Yaga.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, I have, but just like last time when you did La... What was it? La Owl.
Em Schulz: Oh, La Lechuza.
Christine Schiefer: Lechuza. I have heard of it, but I probably don't know much of anything about her.
Em Schulz: I confuse... Confused Baba Yaga with umm, the Babadook, [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, they are... I do get the same reaction...
Em Schulz: Baba and Baba.
Christine Schiefer: Which is ah!, whenever I hear both words. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, I know I don't wanna mess with either of 'em, that's for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Correct, correct. Yeah. I've never seen Babadook, but Babadook, Babadook...
Em Schulz: The Babadook.
Christine Schiefer: The Babadook.
Em Schulz: The Babadook.
Christine Schiefer: Have you watched it?
Em Schulz: I watched it when it first came out and then never again. And I don't think I could have appreciated it at the time. I think if I watched it now I would be able to like really get into the camp of it because he's actually like a queer icon. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's what I've heard. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I would like to watch it again and like really analyze the camp of it all.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I'll watch it with you 'cause I still haven't seen it.
Em Schulz: Okay, well Baba Yaga, I'm not gonna have almost...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, totally different thing, [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm now accidentally gonna say Babadook like every fucking time.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: So Baba Yaga is from Slavic folklore specifically... Maybe not specifically, but especially in Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus. And she is a powerful malevolent witch. Umm, Baba...
Christine Schiefer: Get it girl.
Em Schulz: I know. Hey. Hi Barbie. So Baba, uh, can mean grandmother or old woman, just older maternal figure.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Uh, AKA she's known as Grandma Yaga, sometimes she's called like Grandma Witch. Umm, because Baba is also linked to the word sorceress.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So it could be grandmother or it could be witch, essentially.
Christine Schiefer: If I'm like ever a grandparent, I hope that that's my name. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Witch/Grandma. Like it's, you know, up for interpretation.
Em Schulz: I feel like it works really well. 'cause it's neutral enough or ambiguous enough that you could just be called Baba.
Christine Schiefer: Just play it off. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And people will be like... And every day it can mean something different.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. I feel like, depending on the vibe. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, Slavic cultures, like a lot of places have a concept of like a benevolent sorceress. Umm, one who does good magic to ward off bad magic. They can protect your livestock, cure sickness, scare away bad witches, etcetera. Umm, and with the name Baba Yaga, a lot of people think that maybe she's a grandmother figure who's also a good witch.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Umm, however, throughout time her story has warped because now she's been definitely more demonized in her stories as like a...
Christine Schiefer: I see. She's the villain.
Em Schulz: A scary creature. Yeah. Umm, so she could be a benevolent sorceress turned evil throughout the years in storytelling. Umm, and Yaga, the second half of her name is, in different Slavic languages, has a lot of different bad connotations. It can mean rage, it can mean ill-tempered, it can mean sickness, it can mean malicious. Umm, it could also mean two things that you and I are, which is gossipy or derangement.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Who's who, take your pick.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So technically we could be Yaga, I guess. Uh, uh, basically it ends up translating into the Sorceress or the Witch of Rage. The witch of the malicious, the witch of the deranged. Umm, the witch of Gossips would for sure be me.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's you. I'm deranged for sure. But you're Gossip-central. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, I don't know if we should call each other Baba Yaga, but I am saying we technically fit the definition of...
Christine Schiefer: Like, I'm not gonna argue with that one.
Em Schulz: Uh, and like I said, a lot of times it's also just translated into Grandma Witch. Which, umm, what we do know about Baba Yaga is that she wasn't just any old witch. She's notoriously wicked. She started her fame, uh, in the 1600s and 1700s. In the 1600s it was in art. In the 1700s it was in writing. She even shows up a lot earlier than either of those things, at least through like the medieval times through oral traditions.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, but the first like physical record we have of hers is in the 1600s, some say that she has ancient roots as a goddess figure, umm, that relates to life and death. So she's actually come back up more recently with, uh, modern witchcraft. A lot of people have associated her with, uh, Hecate from the episode I covered on her.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And she's often thought of as a hag, which can mean an old woman, but it also can mean a powerful ancient being, which I never knew the second definition.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I always kind of got that vibe. [chuckle] Got the vibe of an ancient demon.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Because [laughter] like, when they talk about sleep paralysis, they're always like, and the hag, and she like, sits and chokes you to death. And I'm like, "Oh, well she seems more than just like an old lady then." Like, she seems like an evil presence. So that does...
Em Schulz: So I thought of...
Christine Schiefer: Kind of makes sense.
Em Schulz: I thought of hag as like a derogatory thing to just call an old woman. So like, if she was sitting on me choking me...
Christine Schiefer: Oh sure. What fucking hag.
Em Schulz: Yeah I'd call her a hag. You know.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But it makes sense that that definition of it being a powerful ancient being has always existed whether or not I knew it, because fairytale hags are often older women that have some sort of magical power. So.
Christine Schiefer: Good point.
Em Schulz: Umm, Baba Yaga is a lot like that. She looks like a hag in that she has... She looks like an older woman. She's frail. Uh, she has kind of like a curved back. Some say that her bones show in her body that they're... She's very fragile-looking...
Christine Schiefer: Gaunt.
Em Schulz: Gaunt. Umm, sometimes she's called Baba Yaga, the bony legged.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, no wonder she wants to sit on you and choke you [laughter]
Em Schulz: In a, uh, in... A lot of times she can be described as extremely ugly.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh geez.
Em Schulz: So I guess whatever that means in your culture is how she would be described. Uh, most commonly, her hair is undone. It apparently looks like she's not wearing, umm, any chest support, if you catch my drift.
Christine Schiefer: So delightful. Some saggy boobs.
Em Schulz: Just dangling.
Christine Schiefer: Let 'em free.
Em Schulz: Umm. And apparently she wears a lot of loose clothing with weird, weird description said, "With no girdle or corset," as if like, that had to be part of everyone's...
Christine Schiefer: God forbid the flap is out. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Are you wearing a girdle or a corset, Christine, or are you a hag?
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I think we both know the answer to that question and I don't need to answer to you.
Em Schulz: Said the Witch of the Deranged. Umm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Said the Gossip Witch. 'cause the Gossip Witch always wants to know whether the other witch is wearing a bra.
Em Schulz: I would be the gossip witch 'cause I'd be like, "She's literally so deranged and not even wearing her corset." So like.
Christine Schiefer: "Look how saggy she looks today. [laughter] without a corset on."
Em Schulz: Umm, so the, by the way, the words that I have used like hair undone, uh, her breasts are hanging low, loose clothes, not like very saggy. I guess all of that combined would be the word frumpy, which I think I've mentioned on the show before is my mom's like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's...
Em Schulz: Most, cursed word.
Christine Schiefer: Cutting insult. Like the most cutting insult.
Em Schulz: You, you could call her any word in the book, and if it's not the word frumpy, you haven't called her the worst word. So, Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I kind of get it. My mom always used that as like the most cutting insult also.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And if somebody ever called me frumpy, especially if I was, I mean most of the time I am frumpy, but if someone called me that when I was like trying not to be, oh, I would be wrecked.
Em Schulz: Like to the... I mean, these days I, probably by definition, my mom has had to really change her ways 'cause I look very...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Frumpy very often. But, uh, if my mom ever were to walk up to somebody and call them frumpy, I mean, that's her version of like the c-word or something, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like she's... She wants you to drop dead from the words alone. Umm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I will. So if she ever finds me.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Sometimes Baba Yaga not only is she frumpy, which is my mom's worst nightmare, but she's also known to sometimes only have one tooth that happens to be razor-sharp. I can't imagine you're... her poor tongue on a daily basis.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's rough.
Em Schulz: The corner of your mouth, oof!
Christine Schiefer: Imagine like you'd eat so slow.
Em Schulz: I mean, you... If you only have one razor-sharp tooth, when you chew do you just ram your razor-sharp tooth into your other gum?
Christine Schiefer: Eww. Yeah. So I guess you just can have applesauce.
Em Schulz: You said it not me.
Christine Schiefer: That stinks.
Em Schulz: Uh, there's other stories that she has a mouthful of teeth and they're all made of iron. So either she's chewing [laughter] real fucking hard or she's not chewing at all.
Christine Schiefer: She's only eating sirloin steak overcooked or applesauce.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: There's no in-between.
Em Schulz: Her teeth are actually a pressing factory.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So it's said that Baba Yaga gets around, this is where things get a little like, "Holy what?" Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Because... And like I'm aware that like all cultures have stories and we're not trying to judge any cultures here. This isn't meant at all to judge or mock their culture, this is just... I had to google it to double-check because it just didn't make any fucking sense to me.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And like it...
Christine Schiefer: I can't Wait. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If this is truly part of her like fairy tale folklore, I fucking love this for her, but it makes no sense and you're gonna have to probably google it yourself 'cause it's gonna confuse you.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I'm excited.
Em Schulz: Baba Yaga gets around, this is how she travels.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: In a big flying mortar and she is the pestle, like she moves around with the pestle.
Christine Schiefer: [cackles] Like to grind your herbs?
Em Schulz: Yes, she has a pestle that she uses to like I guess...
Christine Schiefer: It's like an oar.
Em Schulz: Canoe... Like canoe herself while she's sitting in a big human-sized mortar.
Christine Schiefer: That's fucking genius.
Em Schulz: She's the guacamole. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, yeah, she's like a little cumin seed. Umm, wow.
Em Schulz: And I, I was like, I was like, "That can't be right." And then I googled it, she's straight up in every picture sitting in a mortar like oaring herself with a pestle.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I kind of... That's so delightful.
Em Schulz: I love this for her.
Christine Schiefer: I do too. And I, like, to be honest, it sounds so off the wall that it reminds me of if you heard that witches fly on broomsticks from another culture where that was never mentioned, you'd probably be like, "She flies around on what?" Like, "A broom?" You know, I feel like there'd be like a very similar like a household item that you use a lot. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: It's...
Christine Schiefer: Like I feel like there's...
Em Schulz: It's...
Christine Schiefer: Similarities there.
Em Schulz: No, definitely. It's like something that maybe... I, I don't know enough about like Slavic cultures, but maybe they use a mortar and pestle a lot. I know I probably sound incredibly ignorant to somebody. I don't, I just don't know...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe back in the day it was just probably...
Em Schulz: About that aspect of their culture...
Christine Schiefer: Just a more commonly used tool, you know.
Em Schulz: Or everyone had one or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, just like a broom. Umm.
Em Schulz: But so it, it just... I read that and I was like, "Nowhere in any of the information before this prepared me for that." So like I was just...
Christine Schiefer: She's the guacamole. I, I [laughter]..
Em Schulz: I was just like wasn't seeing that coming...
Christine Schiefer: I really like it.
Em Schulz: And so I thought for sure, I thought for sure our research really it was a typo. I was like, "There's no way."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like I thought mortar I was like, "Motor? Like a motor," but no, she's...
Christine Schiefer: She has a little motor on her mortar.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I, I feel like it's so delightful because if somebody said like what tra... What magical item would you like to enlarge and travel around in? I would... Uh, mortar and pestle is genius because it's a big round bowl so you can't really fall out of it. Uh...
Em Schulz: You can't get hurt because it's like a cast iron so you're protected.
Christine Schiefer: You are... Right, exactly. You are stuck in this ceramic thing and then you have a little oar in case you wanna change directions. And...
Em Schulz: I heard someone.
Christine Schiefer: There might be some little ref... Leftover guacamole down there.
Em Schulz: Again, you said it not me. That's what I'm thinking too.
Christine Schiefer: I mean. And she can eat guacamole with that one tooth of hers.
Em Schulz: Genius. No matter what, she can eat an avocado, she's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Wait a second, that might be why she has a mortar and pestle 'cause you grind stuff with it so she can eat it since she only has one tooth.
Em Schulz: Look, we're piecing it together on our own, unaware of anything else.
Christine Schiefer: And solving the mystery [laughter]
Em Schulz: So she flies around. And I will say a lot of the pictures of what a mortar and pestle looked like back then or at least the one she's riding on, they look kind of more like a flower pot or something 'cause it looks like she's sitting on top of it.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: I'm just warning, before people like go google it, it's supposed to be a mortar and pestle, but it looks a little more like a pot that she's sitting on top of...
Christine Schiefer: Can I go look it up real quick?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Mortar and pestle Baba Yaga. Oh my. Oh my goodness, she is on the move. [laughter]
Em Schulz: She's on the move. So she also... If you look at the pictures it looks like she's flying very low to the ground. Some of the pictures look like she's just riding on the ground.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm. But interesting that you mentioned broom earlier because she also carries a broom on top of her pestle. She must have a trunk in this fucking thing to carry all the shit.
Christine Schiefer: I guess this thing is full. Like this thing is big and full of all her stuff like my car.
Em Schulz: Max capacity.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, she... Yeah exactly just like your car and just like my car.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: She, she carries a broom around because I guess to keep herself incognito since she's so low to the ground. I mean the mortar's cast iron, you know, she couldn't get it too high off the ground.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. It's heavyweight.
Em Schulz: Uh, whenever she moves around and pedals herself with the pestle, she... Pestle, pestle?
Christine Schiefer: I say pestle.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, she also has a broom to sweep up her tracks behind her that the mortar makes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh geez. That seems like a lot of work.
Em Schulz: It seems like you would walk faster than all that.
Christine Schiefer: And it seems like...
Em Schulz: Like imagine, imagine like propelling yourself in cast iron and then having to like turn around, grab the broom, sweep behind you, and then keep going. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna be like, "Sorry. We've got to go back. I missed one of my tracks and I dropped my broom. Hold on."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it would be so not efficient. So inefficient and also then you're gonna be looking backwards and run into somebody with that giant cast iron mortar.
Em Schulz: Well, so some other versions of the story are that she doesn't actually... The mortar doesn't fly. Umm, she actually is driven. She's sitting in it like it's a little vehicle and she is transported by demons carrying it for her. So she's walk...
Christine Schiefer: Now that I can get behind. [chuckle] It's like one of those, uh, wait, we just looked up this word. I think they used to call it like a sedan. Like the thing where you hold... Where people...
Em Schulz: Someone in the air?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like hold the like, uh, the wooden plank sticks...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And they're sitting in a chair. I feel like, umm, I feel like that's her...
Em Schulz: That's what it, that's what it seems like. And also think of how jacked the demons are.
Christine Schiefer: I like it.
Em Schulz: Again, I'm, I don't mean to keep repeating myself, but cast iron and a human being like.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: That's, you gotta be real strong to carry that over your head and walk everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: And then clean up your tracks afterward. Ugh. It's gotta be a nightmare.
Em Schulz: Maybe that's why she's got the broom. She's trying to be helpful and she's like, "Oh, I'll get your little tootsies." You know. "I'll, I'll get behind you."
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, "You're making it harder to do our jobs. Stop."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And she's like, "I'm just trying to help."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Relax.
Christine Schiefer: Relax.
Em Schulz: You're welcome by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Actually don't relax 'cause I'm gonna tip over out of this mortar.
Em Schulz: I wonder also like chicken or the egg. I wonder if because she is seen as a witch, she had to have a broom or I wonder if she already had a broom without like the witch trope...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: You know.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Also, I'm realizing the mortar and pestle, uh, as a witch like you'd probably make all sorts of little herbs...
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: And potions.
Em Schulz: I'm literally so fucking stupid. I landed on guacamole and just never looked elsewhere.
Christine Schiefer: Guacamole.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: That is a spell...
Em Schulz: That's so smart.
Christine Schiefer: Of its own right to be fair.
Em Schulz: My literal witch of a stepmother like has a collection of mortar and pestles that she uses for her spells. Duh, duh!
Christine Schiefer: It's weird that she, like, she has this like XL one that she puts, uh, jacuzzi water in [laughter] and floats around.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So I, I guess you're finally realizing what that's all about.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It keeps it nice and hot.
Em Schulz: That was... Joke of the week, Christine. Well done. [laughter] Umm, no, that totally... I'm so, I'm literally so fucking stupid. Yes, obviously. So, okay. So I, I would then assume that the broom is also part of the trope of like, oh...
Christine Schiefer: The trope... Yeah. Like the symbolism of witchcraft. Sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, and so, uh, you know, demons carry her around blah, blah, blah. And just like the trope of witches back in the day, she's known to create very dangerous windstorms.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So again, she's a weather witch.
Christine Schiefer: Weather witches.
Em Schulz: Not only is she associated with windstorms, she's also associated with winter frost and destruction via snow.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, she's linked to chaos as well as the wild, umm, specifically the untamed wilderness. And that kind of over time led her to be associated with forests as well and that she lives in an ancient forest.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's cool.
Em Schulz: In some stories, people have to venture deep into the dark, scary forest just to find Baba Yaga, which why would you want to go find her but okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You have to go? I don't think you have to go.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If anything, I think she's encouraging you don't if it's hard to get to her.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "I'm sweeping my tracks for a reason."
Em Schulz: Exactly. [chuckle] "So I don't wanna be found." Umm, in other stories, she doesn't live in a dark, scary winding forest but just in a big lonely field. So she's easier to find that way, but all of her stories have to do with you going into the wilderness to find her, in some capacity.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So here's the other thing that I had to Google because I was like, "Surely, this is a fucking typo."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But nay. [chuckle] Umm, Baba Yaga's house is a hut raised up and sitting on a... It's like, it's in the air, not on the ground. It is sitting on a pair of chicken legs.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] [laughter] What?
Em Schulz: Like drumsticks of legs, uh, or essentially...
Christine Schiefer: Like giant legs? Like giant chicken legs?
Em Schulz: Give her a Goog. You tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Umm, Baba Yaga's house.
Em Schulz: Baba Yaba, Baba Yaga chicken leg hut.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like we're doxing her, you know?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they are essentially the...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God! I mean, they're literally giant like webbed chicken feet.
Em Schulz: It's like essentially like an architectural, it's like a stilt. They're like stilts for the house but they're...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Chicken legs.
Christine Schiefer: Like, like giant chicken legs. Yes.
Em Schulz: So the legs are said to also spin the house around endlessly. I don't know if it's like 'cause they're...
Christine Schiefer: What a nightmare.
Em Schulz: Working legs. Like does the house... Can the house move or are the...
Christine Schiefer: It's always like pecking the ground and she just gets like slammed into the front door.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "I picked the wrong animal to carry my house around."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I have no idea why on earth it would spin in circles. It seems like a terrible construction design.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It seems. Well, I, apparently the idea is that it's very on-brand for her like disruptive, chaotic energy.
Christine Schiefer: I mean that's fair. Sure.
Em Schulz: Umm, which like you would think if you're already known to be chaotic, don't then go up to people and be like, "My house is on chicken legs." Like, you've...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] And it's like, "Okay."
Em Schulz: They already know where you stand girl. Like it's okay.
Christine Schiefer: Right. And it... Why are you covering your tracks when you have literal chicken tracks like leading to your house?
Em Schulz: Yeah. People... We can see the talons in the ground.
Christine Schiefer: We can see the talons.
Em Schulz: We know where your house is.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, we can hear you screaming 'cause you're spinning around and round.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Such a bad... I'm like so mad about this architecturally-speaking. Like it doesn't make any sense.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But who invented this?
Em Schulz: Well, also like a... Imagine the giant feathers just laying across a bunch of trees like, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, you're right. This would be such a hazard.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I think somebody needs to actually sit her down and be like, "The broom isn't needed anymore, girl. Like, we know."
Christine Schiefer: "Girl, [laughter] nice try though."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, okay. So on top of all that, her property has a fence around it made of human bones.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good.
Em Schulz: Umm, and skulls that, uh, depending on the story glow from the inside. She'll like keep her whole property warm, I guess by putting coal in these skulls.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Delightful.
Em Schulz: Umm, they have, they have like glowing red eyes and some of, some of the stories actually tell you that the skulls can talk, which is not the most ridiculous thing I've heard so far.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, "Well, may might as well at this point. They probably have a lot to say."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like a chicken with only its legs is still alive enough to carry an entire house. Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, but so they'll talk, and if you approach them, they will tell you to leave the area, which I... It feels like the original Ring doorbell, like, it's just saying...
Christine Schiefer: Great, points.
Em Schulz: "Please leave the property."
Christine Schiefer: They're like...
Em Schulz: You know.
Christine Schiefer: "Leave the packages at the back door, please."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Umm, thank you, I can't come to the door."
Em Schulz: The house itself, uh, in some of the stories doesn't have any windows or entry points. So the only way to get through the door is through like a magical phrase. So essentially an open sesame.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, I guess a lot of times the phrase is, this is probably like a gross mistranslation, but the general phrasing is something like, "Dear hut, please turn your back to the forest and your front to me." Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Forest and your front to me. Okay.
Em Schulz: And if you stay outside of her house and you're like, "Oh, I'm not gonna go near that." Once you're on the property, it's too late because homegirl can smell you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Umm, so she'll and she'll yell at you from her house to be like, "What are you doing here?" And like, "If you're gonna... If you're trying to see me, you're gonna have to come inside." Like, there you're... It's too late. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: A lot of times once she's called you inside and has essentially acknowledged that you're there, it's already too late. And if you don't go inside, she's gonna come get you and be like, not nice about it.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So, umm, inside Baba Yaga is said to usually be cooking over her stove. I don't know what this means, but sometimes she also is just lying on top of the stove. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Wait, [laughter] what? Girl, she needs to get it together.
Em Schulz: She's giving like, plank era. Remember when everyone was planking.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah probably like planking on everything. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So there she's...
Christine Schiefer: Wait till she's on parkour era. She's gonna be like falling...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: On her face outta that stupid house.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, maybe her little chicken leg hut is gonna do parkour with her and just...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Run through the town. Uh, she is said to be cooking on the stove or sometimes lying on top of it. Either way, the house is so small that she can touch both sides of the hut just by extending her limbs.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And uh, she's also seen by her stove, umm, when she's cooking, she's making a lot of food. Apparently she eats like as much as 10 men combined.
Christine Schiefer: Hell yeah.
Em Schulz: And, uh. She's also...
Christine Schiefer: Why is she so gaunt?
Em Schulz: I know. I don't know. Like she's got a tapeworm or something. 'cause like if she's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, perhaps.
Em Schulz: If you're eating that much? And you look that frail?...
Christine Schiefer: See a doctor.
Em Schulz: That's a condition.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I'm worried about you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. She's also said to drink like an, a wild amount of alcohol, so.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Good for her.
Christine Schiefer: Understood.
Em Schulz: One, one of the things that she is, uh, always cooking up, can you guess since this is a fairytale, is little children.
Christine Schiefer: I knew it.
Em Schulz: Per, the trope, she most loves to eat the badly-behaved children.
Christine Schiefer: Sure, of course.
Em Schulz: So she'll also consider eating children, umm, that visit her and fail whatever demand she has asked of them. So a lot of times the fairy tale is like, you go to Baba Yaga 'cause you need something, but first you have to pass a test and it's always impossible to pass.
Christine Schiefer: Oh great.
Em Schulz: And then she gets to eat you.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: What a delightful, uh, what a delightful little plan.
Em Schulz: This is where we deep dive into the most popular fairytale of Baba Yaga. Umm, and this is where I tell you, the Russian fairytale called Vasilisa the Beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Vasil... You're gonna realize real quick. She's got like Cinderella energy.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, so Vasilisa's mom is dying and before she officially dies, she gives Vasilisa a doll. And I guess it's, umm, like an enchanted doll and tells her, "Never let anyone know you have this doll, but this doll is to take care of you when I'm gone. If you ever need help, just ask her for it and she will help you and keep you safe."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And then, and the story, apparently that day, the, the mom dies later.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Umm, trauma! Uh, so then the plot, at this point, turns into Cinderella all the way where Vasilisa's dad remarries, she ends up getting an evil stepmom and two evil stepsisters. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: They are all looking to get married. And Vasilisa is like the fairest of them all, but no one wants the stepsisters and that makes the stepmom pissed off. And so, uh, there are a lot of times where the stepmom will try to get Vasilisa to do chores or keep her busy so that way she's not going out. Umm, and a lot of times it would be so many chores that Vasilisa would be overwhelmed, but she always kept the doll with her. So she would ask the doll for help.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And this doll would come to life and do all her chores for her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Okay. I thought it was just like a symbolic thing for a minute, but no, no [laughter]
Em Schulz: No. She's like Pinocchio-ing. She is like...
Christine Schiefer: I got it.
Em Schulz: This, this thing is just coming to life and just doing it all.
Christine Schiefer: I wish we'd have heard about like the first time she just asked it for help, thinking it was like a little symbolic thing.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And then it just like appeared into a real creature. But okay.
Em Schulz: Think of the fear, the scream.
Christine Schiefer: I mean I would've been like...
Em Schulz: The scream would've been the loudest the world ever heard.
Christine Schiefer: My beautiful mama gave me this little trinket, and then it starts talking. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Such a good point. I want the, the origin story to...
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'd like to hear.
Em Schulz: To this doll.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, so the doll that Vasilisa's mom gives her, helps her around the house whenever she's feeling overwhelmed. A lot of times, just to let her keep her youth, she will, umm, the doll will just be like, "Girl, I've got all these chores. Don't worry about it. Just go be yourself and have fun."
Christine Schiefer: Wait what? [laughter]
Em Schulz: And the doll will just...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's not fair.
Em Schulz: Do everything.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The doll would also say a lot of encouraging things when Vasilisa wasn't feeling good.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And the stepmom hates Vasilisa and keeps sending her into the woods to do certain errands hoping that she'll get lost and never return.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God! [laughter] That's horrible. I mean, I know the story of Cinderella, so I'm not totally shocked, but like, that is sad.
Em Schulz: Umm, and some of the stories implied that it was because, uh, everyone wanted to marry Vasilisa, and she wanted her stepdaughters...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: To get all the attention. So if they got rid of her, then the stepdaughters would get married. Umm, or this...
Christine Schiefer: Awesome...
Em Schulz: You know her...
Christine Schiefer: I've seen a Cinderella story. I've seen and loved a Cinderella story, so I get it.
Em Schulz: Starring Hillary Duff.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And Chad Michael Murray?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, so the stepmom keeps sending her out into the woods thinking she'll get lost and never come home. But this doll is like, "Don't worry, I'm also a GPS. Turn left. Turn right now you're home."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And remember, nobody knows this doll exists. So fed up with it. The stepmom decides to get rid of Vasilisa once and for all by sending her to Baba Yaga to be eaten.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, great.
Em Schulz: And she, she creates this plot, this plan with her daughters and she's like, "We're gonna blow out all the candles, we're gonna get... We're gonna snuff out the fires and the house is gonna get cold. We're not gonna be able to see, and we're gonna need Vasilisa to go to Baba Yaga for light, to bring us light."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, so Vasilisa comes home, they're like, "Oh girl..."
Christine Schiefer: Help!
Em Schulz: "You are not gonna believe this. We have no light. What happened?"
Christine Schiefer: The craziest thing just happened, [laughter]
Em Schulz: And they said, but allegedly Baba Yaga has glowing skulls or skulls filled with coal in them. So we need you to go.
Christine Schiefer: Easy-peasy.
Em Schulz: This is literally... This is literally one of the reasons they said otherwise me and my daughters, we can't do our needle points because we can't see [laughter] So.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I better hurry. [laughter] Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: At haste! At once!
Christine Schiefer: At haste.
Em Schulz: Vasilisa was probably like, "Why haven't you already gone without me? Oh my God."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Seriously.
Em Schulz: So now it's her job. "Go find Baba Yaga."
Christine Schiefer: Classic.
Em Schulz: So her stupid sisters can embroider or something.
Christine Schiefer: Wonderful.
Em Schulz: Umm, Vasilisa goes to Baba Yaga's hut. And...
Christine Schiefer: They're making like one of those Burbank shirts and it's like really crooked 'cause it's so dark and you're like, Burbank. They're like, "Now only CVS will [laughter] will buy these off us."
Em Schulz: Literally, I, that is the only origin story I'm gonna stick with now for why my shirts are fucked up, is like.
Christine Schiefer: Sewn by the Vasi... Val, what's her name?
Em Schulz: Vasilisa.
Christine Schiefer: Vasilisa's evil stepsisters. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Genius. Great callback. Great callback.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] So stupid.
Em Schulz: So Vasilisa goes to the hut, or she tries to, but she's lost in the woods. And then the doll goes, "Hey, hey, I, I got you head this way." Umm, so she gets to the house with the doll and from the hut. She's already, she's, she's standing outside looking at the hut on it's little chicken legs, looking at the human bone fence with all the glowing skulls. And she can hear Va... Uh, she can hear Baba Yaga in the house. And like I said, once she can smell you, you're in trouble.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And all of a sudden she hears, "I smell with my long bony nose, a Russian girl with tasty toes."
Christine Schiefer: Ooooh. Ohhhh, that's horrible.
Em Schulz: Now I can't confirm that that's like officially what she has said since, like before the 1600s.
Christine Schiefer: Right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But I can't tell you in some of the current child's, the current children books of her. That is, that's what she has said.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, so, uh, anyway, Vasilisa asks for help sees her and goes, "Listen, my mom can't needle-point. You understand. Help me."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And Baba Yaga probably rolls her eyes and says, "Uh, well, I will help you if you do my chores for me. And one of those chores that I'm gonna need you to do is to separate all of my wheat from my wild peas. And you have to do it by the time I wake up." Which I guess was an impossible task, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Right. 'cause she's gonna do the impossible thing. Right.
Em Schulz: Some versions also say it was separate rotted corn from healthy corn.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm?
Em Schulz: Umm, and you have to do it while I'm sleeping. So in the dark.
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: Uh, either way, Baba Yaga goes asleep. Vasilisa is freaking the fuck out. She's like, "I can't do this." And the doll says, "Don't worry baby. I got you."
Christine Schiefer: "Hey, you relax."
Em Schulz: She says, "You, you, you sit the spell, you take a little nap, it'll be handled." Baba Yaga wakes up and all the wheat is separated from the peas. And she's like, "I did not see this coming." And, how'd that happen?
Christine Schiefer: And Vasilisa is like, napping. She's like, "What the fuck?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, "And you had time to go to bed." Crazy.
Christine Schiefer: "You're my new housekeeper," I guess. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, so Baba Yaga is like, "Okay, redo. I have some shit I gotta do out in town in my mortar and pestle." But here's the situation. [laughter] You heading back...
Christine Schiefer: I gotta get to the mortar and pestle in Deve... Uh, what's it called? I almost called it Vaseline. Valvoline for a tuneup.
Em Schulz: Oh, Vasilisa.
Christine Schiefer: Valvoline, Vasilisa.
Em Schulz: Valvoline [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: For a tuneup.
Em Schulz: PepBoys.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, she's like, "I'm gonna head out for the day. I got some shit I gotta do and I will come back tonight and help you, but only if you continue all this excessive cleaning and chores that I've got set for you. And now I'm gonna need you to separate all of my dirt from poppy seeds."
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Well, yeah yeah. Even I know that's gonna be a quite a task.
Em Schulz: It's a big ask.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Big ask. Umm, and then she says, "Or I'll eat you." And then she flies away in her little mortar and pestle.
Christine Schiefer: Bye-bye. [laughter]
Em Schulz: "See you girl." "Bye Barbie."
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm and wouldn't you know it, this little doll is a homie and separates all the poppy seeds from the dirt. And Baba Yaga gets home and sees it's all completed. And I don't know, maybe Vasilisa is taking another nap.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Incredible.
Em Schulz: Amazed. Amazed by this. She asks Vasilisa, "How on earth did you do this?" And Vasilisa says, it's because of a blessing from my mother. And Baba Yaga...
Christine Schiefer: Love that vague. I love that vague answer. [laughter]
Em Schulz: She was like, "This is not my first time being asked how I do the impossible."
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: And Baba Yaga just kind of just goes like, "Bleghh. Last thing I want in my home is something blessed."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: "I don't want a blessing in this house," 'cause she's apparently an evil witch. Remember?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: God forbid she's something...
Christine Schiefer: Sure, sure, sure.
Em Schulz: A blessing. So she kicks Vasilisa out, she's like, "A blessing? I'd rather you survive and get the fuck out of my house. [laughter] Umm, so leave please." And handed one of the skulls glowing with coals inside of it to her.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And said, "Don't come back here." So the story gets interesting where, I don't know if it's... Some of the versions are apparently that Vasilisa didn't even wanna bring the skull home at that point, but the doll ends up telling her, "No, no, no. Baba Yaga has done us a favor and you need to bring the do...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: You need to bring the skull with you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: So she ends up keeping the skull.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: In other versions I saw it kind of omitted that, but I like that part of the story where she...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The doll tells her to keep it because Baba Yaga has secretly done something nice. Umm, so Vasilisa gets home, she sees her, uh, mom and step sisters, and the lights are still off in the house. And so she shows them the skull that she gave them.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder why they left the lights off if they thought she was gonna die.
Em Schulz: Excellent point.
Christine Schiefer: Like didn't you... Couldn't you, the second she was out of sight, start needle-pointing, you know?
Em Schulz: Like couldn't you have left like a candle on upstairs and then like, gone back to it?
Christine Schiefer: "I think we're fine now, we're safe. We can turn the lights back on. She's getting eaten right now."
Em Schulz: Interesting point Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Just a thought.
Em Schulz: Well, she gets home and stepmom thought she was dead. Insert Miley saying, "I'm back motherfuckers, I swear they're trying to kill me." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're correct. Actually.
Em Schulz: "They're trying to kill your favorite bitch!" but I hope that's what Vasilisa said. And Vasilisa shows the stepmom the glowing skull and says, "I did it. Here she is." And when the skull is pointed at them, the skull's eyes light up and the stepmom and sisters are set on fire and die.
Christine Schiefer: Oh I knew it [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, also much later in the story, she ends up like becoming like royalty or something in, in Russia, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, of course. Well, of course it wouldn't be a fairytale otherwise.
Em Schulz: Without a prince charming. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So all that story to tell you that Baba Yaga, although she is dangerous and is known to eat people and be evil in some ways, she also has this weird flip side to her where she can actually help a hero out and be very nurturing, like in a way that you don't expect it.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Like she like almost helps the underdog in a way.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So she went from...
Christine Schiefer: As long as multiple other people die also, I guess.
Em Schulz: Yeah, she was like, "Oh three for one deal, let's go."
Christine Schiefer: Three for one. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So in Vasilisa 's story, Baba Yaga is scary and dangerous, but also rewards Vasilisa for, you know, I don't know, her determination or like doing the impossible. Umm, and it's interesting the amount of stories I read last night about not just Baba Yaga, they're like thesises about fairytales.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Which blows my mind. I just, I'm sure that's common for some people, but that was not in my realm of, of fun facts. Umm, and a lot of people have said it's interesting that in stories that involve Baba Yaga, if the hero of the story as a girl, she's more of a donor and will actually help the girl along the way and like give her a gift or, umm, will be easier on her if she can't finish the tasks. Whereas if the child is a boy, she's more of a villain and will eat the kid right away.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. Interesting.
Em Schulz: So she's kinder to girls than boys.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, either way, she is meant to keep children in line and she's known to be a collector of magical items, which is why in a lot of stories, when someone is on a quest, umm, she gives them a test to, uh, to pass and then she helps them with their item they need.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, nice.
Em Schulz: Umm, this is what, what I was also the thesises, theses, thesises, that I was reading about last night. Umm, a lot of them had some interesting stuff to say that Baba Yaga is symbolic for, like complex things or complex themes of motherhood, umm, where that she can be seen by some as cold and bitter, but others she's giving a nurturing.
Christine Schiefer: Uhhh.
Em Schulz: Umm, she fits into the fairytale motif of maternal cannibalism.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good.
Em Schulz: Umm, which is a lot of like 'Hansel and Gretel' and 'Little Red Riding Hood'.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And I think, I think it was the original 'Sleeping Beauty' had like a grandmother figure eating you at some point.
Christine Schiefer: Probably.
Em Schulz: Umm, and so it's usually a grandmother figure turned evil and is, you know, set on eating children, which the, again, I don't think people realize that there were multiple, like professional papers out there and research studies...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: About maternal cannibalism in fairy tales. It was very interesting.
Christine Schiefer: I mean my mother wrote her dissertation on, uh, German Jewish exile literature focusing on three specific female poets. So to me, like the more niche...
Em Schulz: Amazing.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't surprise me. I feel like there's [chuckle] there's very, very, very, very niche dissertations and theses out there. So that's... But maternal, what is it? Maternalistic cannibalism I've never even heard before.
Em Schulz: Specifically in fairytale motifs. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Umm, and uh, it... They each had a different point to make, but, uh, Baba Yaga is, definitely fits the, I dunno, the bill for it.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And more than just, uh, mother figures, Uh, Baba Yaga also represents the theme of general womanhood, umm, so that in society there are certain expectations of who she is versus what she'll do. Umm, she like sh...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: A woman is, uh, you know, supposed to stay in the kitchen, but a woman these days is also about empowerment and freedom.
Christine Schiefer: She's like, but I'll plank in the kitchen on top of the stove. Haha!
Em Schulz: Exactly. So Baba Yaga is said to cook, but she will also, just like we saw with Vasilisa, she'll provide for people in need, even if it's in a really backwards way. But at the same time, she seeks solitude and values her independence 'cause she lives in the fucking woods. [laughter] So she can be seen as nurturing, or she can be seen, be seen as a witch depending on how the story is written.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Which is very in tune with a, a lot of the, uh, the experience of a woman. She also represents the line between life and death. And some people, like I said, link her to deities of death and birth or destruction and regeneration. Umm, some modern, uh, pagans have actually found associations between her and Hecate or the triple goddess. Umm, and those who seek Baba Yaga as a goddess figure say that she appears as either the maiden, uh the maiden, the mother or the crone, which are the triple goddess, and whichever one you need in the moment, she will appear as.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well that's nice.
Em Schulz: So weirdly, I think it's, it's because she was associated with like the ambiguity of motherhood that this... It was easy to bring her into this kind of world of like, "Oh, she's a strong woman and therefore she could be seen as this goddess figure to us."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, by reaching out to her though, it can be very risky because you don't know who you'll get. She'll either be very nurturing or malevolent. And admirers of Baba Yaga say that she has helped them with self-acceptance because her ambiguous nature helps them honor every part of themselves regardless of expectations.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa, that's really beautiful. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm. And there are apparently some rituals you can do online to contact Baba Yaga, but this is where I also give my PSA that you should only follow like, trusted rituals by true practitioners who know what they're doing...
Christine Schiefer: Or like don't summon her. I don't know. Unless... You weigh the pros and cons guys, but I'm not backing you on that one. I feel like we could leave her out of it. [laughter] I feel like I don't trust her.
Em Schulz: If I see a house with chicken legs anytime soon, I'm gonna know one of you fucked around and found out.
Christine Schiefer: One of you [laughter] and now we're finding out. Yeah.
Em Schulz: If all of a sudden there's a mortar and pestle that almost like hits me on the way.
Christine Schiefer: Just like...
Em Schulz: Down the Highway.
Christine Schiefer: Past the window, you're like, "Did I just see that?" [laughter] Yeah. No. No. No no no.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that is Baba Yaga.
Christine Schiefer: I love it Em. That was a good story. I swear I've heard that phrase and I knew probably zero of those facts. So, once again, taught me a lesson.
Em Schulz: I, uh, that's what I'm here for. The utmost top tier education once a week.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uhh. Okay. Good job Em. I just realized I don't have my notes. Oh wait, I have to just plug... Grab my laptop charger. Sorry, I left it across the room.
[ATWWD elevator music]
Christine Schiefer: All right Em. Are you ready for my tale?
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was trying to think of something [laughter] witty...
Christine Schiefer: I was like, hello?
Em Schulz: To say. You said tale and I was like tail, head. I was try... A heads, tails. I was... It didn't land. Anyway, I gave up, but I had to explain it anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Pretty sure. I think we can all agree it landed just perfectly.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: 10 outta 10.
Em Schulz: I'm about to land off a cliff. I can't, and I was... I felt so bad that I did...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I just wanted to have something weird to say and now I am gonna think about it for the rest of the day that I couldn't keep up with you.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I believe in you and I bet any moment now you're gonna scream something out that has to do with heads and/or tails and we're all gonna laugh.
Em Schulz: It'll only be at the saddest point in your story, [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You'll be like, "I got it. [laughter] I went to thesource.com. I got it." Okay. [laughter]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ahh. Alright. Well, I do have a sad story for you today Em. Of course, this is the story of The Lost Boys of Bucks County.
Em Schulz: I feel like I've heard this one.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: But not... The title, not anything else.
Christine Schiefer: I had also heard of the title and did not know about the story, we're kind of in it together. But Bucks County is in Pennsylvania. It's the fourth most populated county in the state. It's a home to roughly 650,000 people...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: And it's in eastern Pennsylvania, just north of Philadelphia. One resident described the county as the place where rural Pennsylvania meets urban Pennsylvania. And so many of the counties, small towns, have quite a bit of wealth, umm, where people are moving out of the city, buying bigger houses with active communities, well-kept historical houses. It's obviously a, you know, very old historic area. Bucks County itself has a reputation, of course, as a safe and friendly place to live. Many people move there for the well-funded schools, the low crime rates. It's like a very... It's known as being a very family-friendly area. Overall many people in Bucks County feel like it just has a general pleasant and secure feeling. They can let their guard down. They're not like, umm, they don't feel at risk like they might in a bigger city, and they feel like they know everyone, know their neighbors despite being close to a place like Philadelphia. That is why it was so shocking when the county became the focal point of the nation in 2017, when four young men all went missing at the same time over the 4th of July holiday.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: All four were from Bucks County and three of them were friends. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary about them. They were all just enjoying their summers, living their normal day-to-day lives. And just for quick context, the 4th of July is a huge celebration in Bucks County because [laughter] fun fact, Bucks County is the location where George Washington famously crossed the Delaware River.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: And therefore turned the tides of the Revolutionary War. So, it's a huge deal 4th of July. A lot of the communities celebrate for a week before and after the actual date of 4th of July.
Em Schulz: Dang.
Christine Schiefer: Hosting charity... I know I'm like, I always even forget it's 4th of July till the actual day, and I start hearing banging noises outside.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But they take it very seriously. They host charity runs, parades, cookouts, historical reenactments, craft shows the whole nine yards. Many people were still in the midst of festivities on Saturday, July 8th when two parents called the police in Middletown to report a missing person. By the time they called at 6:00 PM they had not heard from their son in nearly 24 hours.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Their son was 19-year-old Dean Finocchiaro. And he was described by friends and family as fearless, adventurous, and loyal with a big heart. He was a free spirit who loved fishing and sports, and he was also a daredevil. In an interview, his dad fondly said, quote, "He had more balls than brains. He kept me on my toes." So everything Dean did, he wanted to push to the limit. He loved riding dirt bikes. He loved cliff-diving. Uh, he just had a natural hunger for adventure. He'd gotten in trouble for some kind of crazy, uh, like off-roading and, and things that teenagers do out in the country. But overall, he had a big heart. His favorite saying was the Bob Marley quote, "Love the life you live and live the life you love."
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He was a very genuine, caring person. He was very close with his parents, and his father described his hugs as so heartfelt.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: I know. That one got me. At 6:30 PM the night before. Dean told his dad he was going somewhere, but he'd be back in 15 minutes.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: When an hour went by with no sign of Dean, his dad tried texting and calling him, but Dean never responded, and the calls went straight to voicemail as if the phone had been turned off. Dean was an adult because he was 19, but his parents were still worried because Dean always stayed in contact with them. And if he said he would be home in 15 minutes, he usually was, or he'd let them know why he was delayed. Dean's dad said at an interview, "He told us everything, even things we didn't want to know." So they felt like he wouldn't be hiding something from them. He, they felt like something was actually wrong.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: If his phone died while he was out, he would always contact his parents on a friend's phone so they know... Knew how to get a hold of him. So they knew something was terribly wrong. And when he didn't come home that night, his parents started reaching out to his friends, but none of them had seen him either. The police spoke to the parent's neighbors who had security cameras outside, and the cameras had recorded a silver pickup truck driving down the road at the time Dean left his home. Neighbors confirmed they saw Dean get into this truck, which his friends said belonged to 20-year-old Cosmo DiNardo, who lived about 15 minutes away.
Christine Schiefer: Dean's friends also admitted to police that they knew Dean was actually leaving that night to buy weed. That's where he was going on that like, quick trip out...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Of his parents' house. But his friends also said that he never came back or answered any of their calls. His friends all tried reaching out to Cosmo on Snapchat, and he didn't give them any information.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Before Dean's cell phone was turned off, it had pinged a tower 20 miles away in Solebury, Pennsylvania where there were two properties under the name DiNardo. Hmmm.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Suspicious.
Em Schulz: Hmmm.
Christine Schiefer: Late that night, a Middletown officer drove to Solebury where she met with a local officer, and they headed to one of the properties. And this was a farm owned by the DiNardo family, so Cosmo's parents. The local officer was relaxed. He thought, "Oh, well, we're just gonna go on this property, take a look around, and we'll probably just find all these, find Dean hanging around smoking weed and just like forgot...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: To tell his parents." Right? But when they arrived at the property, it was eerie and it was quiet. There were no lights on. The house looked like nobody had lived in it for years, and it was too dark to really look for anything, so the officers left. But interestingly enough, this is like a trust-your-gut moment, on the way back to the station, the officer had a bad feeling and was like, "I should have looked inside that shed."
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so he turned around and he drove back by himself, and he's like...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: "I'm gonna open that fucking shed." So he got back and he found the shed. It was open. He didn't have a warrant, so he couldn't open the door and go inside, but he could shine his flashlight in to see if he spotted anything.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And when he did, he noticed a car that looked like it had recently been driven into the shed. I mean not into, like the side of it, like inside it.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Without, without any destruction. Drove into an open door.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Correct, Thank you. More like a garage, I suppose, is a better way to say it.
Em Schulz: Pulled into the barn.
Christine Schiefer: Pulled into the barn recently, thank you so much. Uh, there was no driveway, and there were fresh tire tracks in the grass leading to the shed, and so he called the plates in to see whose car this was. Turns out it was registered to a young man named Thomas Meo who lived nearby in a town called Plumstead. Cameras had captured Tom Meo's car driving in town about a mile away from the farm on Friday night just before 8:00 PM, which was about an hour and a half after Dean left home the same night. So an officer called back on the radio, uh, saying, "Hang on, did you say Thomas Meo? That's the car you found?" He said, yeah, I guess so, and they said, "His mother called earlier today to report him missing."
Em Schulz: [gasp] Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: So now there's two boys missing.
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: She reported that he had been missing for 24 hours after disappearing with his good friend, Mark Sturgis. Both boys were friends with Dean. 22-year-old Mark was a talented guitar player and overall musician with skill and a good ear. He was even teaching his friend Tom how to play guitar. He was also a loving older brother who spent time with his little sister and a loyal friend who went by the nickname Alpaca among people close to him.
Em Schulz: This is Thomas Meo?
Christine Schiefer: Uh. This is Mark, sorry. I know it's the...
Em Schulz: Mark, Mark. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I meant to warn you at the beginning. It's a lot of people. So Dean is the first person we talked about whose parents called in and said he was missing, but he was known, and I haven't really added this, but I should point it out, that he was known to police already because he was kind of a daredevil. Like I said, he had done some off-roading stuff.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: There was a clip of him literally standing like on a motorbike on the highway. Like I mean, he was...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: A daredevil. And so police kind of already knew who he was and his parents were really frustrated because the police kept saying like, "Oh, well, you know, you know him. He's probably just causing trouble." And his parents were like, "No, we do know him and something's wrong." So they had trouble...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Getting the police to take them seriously. Umm. But so Dean was the first one I mentioned. Then the police officer looking for Dean found, uh, a car belonging to Thomas Meo who was reported missing that same day.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And Thomas Meo had been out and about with his friend, Mark, who also had never come home.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: So now we have three young boys and they're not kids. They're early 20s or late teens. So they're technically adults, but in the eyes of their family, they're still kids, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So one friend described Mark as having so much energy, being so outgoing. He had a lot of friends, just a really smart kid who cared about everybody. Now he was missing with Tom, and Tom's car has been found recently moved into a shed on Cosmo DiNardo's property. Tom's mom could not get through to him or Mark. And both of their phones sent calls straight to voicemail as if their phones were off. The morning after she last heard from them. She looked for them at work where Mark's dad employed both of them. So they worked together at Mark's dad's company and he said he hadn't heard from either of them either, and they were not, by the way, the type to miss work, like this was just totally, uh, unusual. 21-year-old Thomas Meo, whose car was found in the shed, was a confident and unapologetic guy who people said you could always count on to be himself. He never seemed ashamed to have fun and lead the way. And he was the kind of person who gave other people the confidence to like be bold and be themselves. He was an athlete in high school and a hard worker after he graduated, he really cared about his friends and family. His girlfriend said he was thoughtful, patient and understanding. He wanted nothing more than for those he loved to be happy, is how she described him.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like Dean, Tom also kept in touch with his mom and would never run off without telling her where he was going. He was also diabetic and he relied daily on insulin.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, to live, so he could not go anywhere without planning around the medication. So this was like extra concerning for his parents. Tom's mom thought they must have ditched work, which wasn't like them at all, but she was like, "Well, what else could it be?" You know? And the fact that they're both missing together is very strange. Uh, maybe they just decided to play hooky. But she thought, "Well, you know what? They'll come home with a funny story to explain it and, uh, that'll, that'll answer all my questions." Unfortunately, of course, they never showed up and none of their friends could admit to seeing them.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Investigators discovered that Tom's and Mark's phones had happened to ping the same cell tower as Dean's just before they were turned off.
Em Schulz: Okay. Was it the same one next... That was near Cosmo's Farm?
Christine Schiefer: Ding, ding, ding. All three of the boys' phones were turned off at about the same time, and they were all turned off within three miles of Cosmo's family farm.
Em Schulz: Interesting. And I think it's, it's also, I don't know what, what this means or if it means anything, but the fact that people remember Dean getting in the car with Cosmo. I wonder if that means, but...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: But Thomas drove there.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So I, there's like... It's different stories going on, so I wonder if there was some sort of conversation of like, "All four of us will hang out. I'll pick up Dean on the way." But also...
Christine Schiefer: Em! You're so smart. You're such an investigative mind.
Em Schulz: It's also weird to like that Dean would have lied and said, "I'll only be gone for 15 minutes." He had to have thought it was really only gonna take 15 minutes.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: He really had, it would've been like, "Hey, I got some weed. Let's all just like split it up or something and then I'll take you home." Like something quick.
Christine Schiefer: You are seriously into it.
Em Schulz: Oh, sorry.
Christine Schiefer: No. In the best way.
Em Schulz: Uhh.
Christine Schiefer: No. Yeah. Listen, I don't even wanna say anymore.
Em Schulz: If you go missing. You want me in your corner folks, I'm telling ya.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently I do. Umm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes, please. Uh, wow. So you're nailing it. I think it, uh, listen, don't take this the wrong way. I mean it in the best way possible, but it strikes me that you would have a really good intuition about what teenagers are up to. [laughter] Like...
Em Schulz: Shut up. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: No I'm serious. I mean, in a good way though.
Em Schulz: It's...
Christine Schiefer: Like you are like, "Hang on."
Em Schulz: It's 'cause I wear the high school shirts, apparently. I don't know.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right. You're literally... Your persona is showing. But I feel like it's true though. 'Cause, 'cause you, I don't know, there's something where you're like, "Oh, I know what teenagers are doing." Like, "I know what they're up to." Like you, I don't know, you just, I just feel like you...
Em Schulz: Me? Well, I, I did do a lot of teenage scheming.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe that's why. I feel like, like the driving around, like, you know, I feel like you kind of intuitively know.
Em Schulz: I, we all... Everyone in my group, sorry mom, everyone in our group lied to our parents all the time about where we were. So it's...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: God.
Em Schulz: It just, it's an, it's an easy, it's an obvious one to me. Like, "Oh, well."
Christine Schiefer: Now you can't. 'cause everyone has GPS LOL.
Em Schulz: I truly. Do you ever think about how much bullshit? Well, maybe not you 'cause I know you are more of a goodie two shoes than me, but the, the amount of shit I got away with because there wasn't Find My Friends...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Like, kids these days have no idea what they could've been capable of.
Christine Schiefer: You could literally say, I'll be home by midnight. I'm going to my friends and then do anything. And like, they would never know.
Em Schulz: And you didn't even... And like we had cell... Like we had cell phones, but the cell phone culture was not what it is today. Where like you're expected to always have your phone.
Christine Schiefer: No, no.
Em Schulz: Like I had a phone in my pocket for phone calls, but you couldn't even text people. Like you had to like, you only got like 100 texts a month or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And after that... So like, like either your phone was something you used to call or you weren't using your phone. And it was just so easy to just be like, "Oh, well I'm at Deirdre's."
Christine Schiefer: You go off the grid.
Em Schulz: Which often was your parents just had to trust where you were. Which like, I, I did a really good job of checking in with my mom. Like every, like... I would be like, I'm alive. And then I'd like maybe wouldn't tell her where I was, but I'd say, I'm alive, you know, and I'm fine. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I feel like that's what these parents were hoping for. 'Cause like, they knew their kids were adults. They were like, "You know, we don't know what they're up to." And they've gotten, like, Dean had gotten into trouble with the law before, like, this is... They're not like expecting their kids are all just like crocheting together. But at the same time, they're like, you know, 24 hours later, my son would've told me 'cause he knows how worried I'd be. Like, He would've told me he's alive. Or like, He would've said, oh, I got caught up in something and I'm... I won't be home tonight. Like, he would've told them, you know...
Em Schulz: Right right.
Christine Schiefer: Like how you said you would check in. So that's definitely the same vibe that I'm getting here. Umm, that they, they're like, "Okay, well we had a little bit of leeway to give them, but now that several days have passed, like that's not normal."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So basically, I think the last thing we said was that, uh, they found that all three ping... All three boys' phones pinged the tower within three miles of Cosmos farm. Uh, right before all three phones were turned off. So they decide next to run the plates on Cosmo's truck. And the Friday night that Tom, mark and Dean went missing, they found out Cosmo's truck drove by the same camera that Tom's car passed, but 15 seconds earlier. So basically like how you were kind of putting together the pieces of how everybody got together. It looked like Tom was following Cosmo on the way back to the farm.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So it was almost like...
Em Schulz: Or just like, or just like weirdly on the same route at the exact same time.
Christine Schiefer: Or on the same route. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. It, it appeared as though he was following him, uh, to his property. So words started spreading about the missing young men, of course. Uh, the police made a press release and people across the county started speculating on where these three boys could be. Umm, of course, the news spread. This is 2017, so spread on social media where people tried to put things together and piece together, who saw which of the boys when. The boys' friends and family were also posting on social media themselves, asking if anyone had seen their kids or noticed anything. And you know, obviously it seemed like all three disappearance had to be connected. Umm, it was like, were they each targeted separately or were all three brought together and then targeted?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, was there another party on the loose who was dangerous? And, you know, those were the big questions to be answered. So investigators reached out to other Buck County municipalities to see if they could point a finger in any direction and if any other missing persons cases matched up, umm, so that they could add them to the list. And they waited to hear back. Meanwhile, an officer went to Cosmo's family house in Bensalem, Pennsylvania, and there, Cosmo's mom answered the door and said, "Oh, he's at work and I'll have him reach out to you when he gets home." And basically like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Kick them out. So instead, the next day, Cosmo's attorney contacted the police, uh, and said, "You can come meet with Cosmo and his dad at my office." So...
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Cosmo was waiting there. Police came by to meet him and his attorney and his dad. He seemed relaxed and confident. He said, "Yeah, I picked up Dean after work, but when Dean said he wanted to run an errand, I didn't feel like going. So I dropped him off back at home and then I went fishing." Huh. Strange.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: He said he had not been to the farm in Solebury and that his, his own farm and that he did not know Tom or Mark. He's like, "I don't know those guys."
Em Schulz: He's just lying, lying, lying.
Christine Schiefer: Just flat out lying without a care in the world. So on July 9th, investigators were made aware of a fourth missing person, a boy named Jimi Patrick. He had disappeared two days before the other three boys, 19-year-old Jim Taro Patrick was a dedicated student who had just finished his freshman year as a business major at Loyola University, Maryland, where he was attending on a full scholarship. He was spending his summer vacation working at a restaurant and living with his grandparents who had actually raised him from birth. So his grandmother had brought him home from the hospital when he was just a day old. Umm, she actually had not been expecting to raise him because his mother or her daughter was struggling with some severe mental health issues. So she ended up having to raise him as a son. And she actually, uh, I believe the quote was, "He became my son."
Christine Schiefer: And, uh, she was in her fifties, had a full-time job, and now she and her husband were suddenly like raising a, a baby, umm, as their own.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, they, at first, brought him home totally unprepared. They had no diapers, no bottles, no baby clothes. Umm, and so the entire neighborhood showed up with gifts and supplies and helped. It was like a, a village, you know, it takes a village sort of vibe.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's nice.
Christine Schiefer: Which is really sweet. So Jimi was beloved by his grandparents. They considered him a son. Uh, he was a talented baseball player. His community loved him. He was pretty popular and liked to party a bit. And at 6:00 PM on July 5th, he had left to go eat out with friends at Chick-fil-A. And he was supposed to be home by 8:00, but he didn't show. So his grandparents reported him missing the next morning. Umm, but they were like, "You gotta wait for 24 hours to pass." And they were like, "Okay." So they waited for 24 hours to pass, and at 6:00 PM the following day, once he had been missing for 24 hours, they put together a missing person's report.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: The whole community came together. People were putting yellow ribbons on their mailboxes. They brought the grandparents food. And keep in mind, this is two days before the other two even went missing, that he disappeared. So this is like before they're realizing how massive a situation this is.
Em Schulz: Bad this is, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The last time his phone pinged a tower, before it was turned off, it was in Solebury, near...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Cosmo's farm.
Em Schulz: Yep. Ding, ding, ding.
Christine Schiefer: Ding, ding, ding. Like the other three boys, Jimi was also friends with Cosmo DiNardo on social media. So although he wasn't friends with, uh, Tom, Mark, and Dean, he did know Cosmo. So...
Em Schulz: He still knew him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Cosmo was the kind of link between all three.
Em Schulz: Fully the common denominator between all these people.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, precisely. Investigators worried that perhaps his disappearance was linked to the other three, because at first it wasn't investigated together because A) It happened at a different time, and B) He didn't appear to know the other three boys. But when they realized like this is all connected, they started getting pretty worried. So July 9th, investigators all turned their attention to the DiNardo's farm. Investigators knew that Dean had intended to buy weed because remember his friends had said, "Oh, like... " they finally admitted, "Yeah, we knew he was off to buy weed. That's where he was going." He, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: He said he'd be back in 15 minutes. That's where he was headed. And it seemed unlikely that Cosmo actually did not know Tom, as you said, he's probably lying through his teeth, umm, especially considering the video footage they had of Tom's car following Cosmo to the farm. So they're like, "Okay, well you clearly knew him to a certain extent."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they're thinking maybe Cosmo was letting like the three guys hang out or camp on his family's farm and smoke weed together. Like literally what you suggested, like maybe he offered to... Everybody get together, share some weed. Uh, and so the edges of this farm were pretty wooded. Like maybe they were camping, uh, maybe they got lost or injured out in the woods. You know, there's so many possibilities. But of course, they end up back at this fucking shed. And Tom's car, which was still in the garage, had the keys and the title of the vehicle removed, and they were like...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Rested against the wall of the shed. And they were like, "That's...
Em Schulz: Ew!
Christine Schiefer: Really odd." Like, why? Ugh. Like, why would somebody...
Em Schulz: It feels like a trophy or something.
Christine Schiefer: Doesn't it feel weird? So they were like, "That's strange." Like, "If he brought it here of his own accord, why would he take the title out of the glove box and like prop it up on the wall with the keys?" It's... Doesn't make sense.
Em Schulz: The title's, like the, like the scariest thing to remove from your car. Like that's...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that weird? Like you don't do that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ugh, that's, yeah. That's not something you just leave in a random barn to get destroyed.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: That is like... That is hard to replace.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, to be honest, that's something you don't take out ever unless you need to. Like, it's not something you like think to take out of the glove box, you know?
Em Schulz: No.
Christine Schiefer: Like, even when you get pulled over, you pull out the registration. Well, I pull out everything...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Not the title.
Christine Schiefer: 'cause I panic. But, umm...
Em Schulz: Sure, sure.
Christine Schiefer: You're not intended to pull out the title of your car. So that was very bizarre and a little creepy and unsettling. And what's probably even worse is that in the backseat, they found Tom's medication and his monitoring kit for his diabetes. So...
Em Schulz: He's, he's not, he's not with us anymore, it sounds like.
Christine Schiefer: He either was incredibly ill or it just in...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, basically in imminent danger.
Em Schulz: Yeah, like he's, he's... If he's alive, it's not good.
Christine Schiefer: He's in trouble. Yeah. Knowing Tom was in imminent peril, police did not need a warrant. So, I mean, that's the only quote unquote "silver lining" is that because they could say, "Hey, his life is for sure in danger." Uh, they did not need a warrant to launch a search and rescue operation. So they searched the huge 70 acre farm on foot with dogs, and they used a helicopter to sweep the farm from above until dark. They found a random sneaker that had recently dropped behind the house, and they found Dean's cell phone. Now, his cell phone...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Had been abandoned in an old historic barn on the property. And when they went to look inside the barn, they also found pools of blood on the first floor.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And they noticed that this blood was dripping from the...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Floor above through the cracks of wood.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: And so they go upstairs, whoever had to do this, I mean, dear Lord. Uh, go upstairs to investigate what's up there. They find a pile of sand, which has been used to cover a huge amount of blood, uh, presumably to soak up the blood.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And with the amount of blood that they found, uh, they determined someone had to be seriously injured, uh, for this, uh, much blood to be pooled.
Em Schulz: But not alive to like...
Christine Schiefer: But like not alive, probably. Yeah. So they sent a sample to the lab, and a lab result came back and it was a match to Dean. So this was his blood.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So things are not looking good, and they're now starting to realize this is more than a missing person's case, probably a homicide case. So the N-O-V-A, NOVA, which is the Network Of Victim Assistance, arrived in-person to support the families of the four missing boys while the search continued. Umm, their role was to answer the family's questions, to keep the media away from the families. I do like that this exists, like a protective force for the families...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: While the investigators are doing their work. Because I imagine it would be very overwhelming to have like cameras in your face and media, and so it'd be nice to have like somebody in your corner.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So more police departments began to get involved. And the FBI even sent resources. The police searched the DiNardo residence in Bensalem where they found guns. And although they didn't suspect the gun's use in any crime, they did arrest him on charges for reckless handling of a firearm. So they were able to arrest him on that charge, bring him in, and his bail was set at $1 million.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Eventually, investigators focused their attention on a spot by a cornfield where gravel had been recently laid down and there were still tire tracks leading to and from it. And when they moved the gravel aside, they could tell that the earth had been recently disturbed. So it is looking like a fresh grave, essentially.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: So now they know where to dig. And before they dig, they cover the site with tents and canopies to protect the investigation from the news helicopters. Each bucket of soil they removed, they had to sift through for evidence. Uh, they frequently uncovered fresh grass, like clumps of grass, ears of corn, umm, basically showing that this had been recently buried. Local businesses and residents continually delivered food to the dig site to support the investigators and the families, who by the way, just had to like sit there for hours and wait.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like they couldn't touch anything. They couldn't go closer. They just had to watch and wait as the, as they...
Em Schulz: I can't, I mean, I...
Christine Schiefer: Like slowly one bucket at a time dug through the dirt.
Em Schulz: I can't, I mean, unfathomable.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's a... To even know, like even if they find something, there's that moment of like...
Christine Schiefer: It's not good.
Em Schulz: "Please don't be my kid. Please don't be my kid."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. It's like you want answer... It's that, it's that thing, you see that push and pull where it's, you want answers, but at the same time you kind of don't because they're probably...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Gonna be bad.
Em Schulz: I'm like just praying they don't find anything. But also that doesn't help 'cause where's your kid?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly, then it's square one again. It's like a, a limbo, like a, like a purgatory almost. So they're stuck there and, umm, thankfully there's at least a community to deliver food and, you know, try to take care of them the best they can. Finally, on July 12th, investigators had reached 12 feet deep into the dig site when their shovels hit a metal oil tank.
Em Schulz: What? I didn't expect that. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And so they hear this clank and they're able to uncover this big metal oil tank, which the DiNardos had actually converted to a pig roaster.
Em Schulz: So at least the DiNardos are like, "What the fuck is that doing all the way down there?"
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. "Wait a second."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And, uh, let me guess. It can hold a pig so it can hold a body.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Interesting. So they use a camera to look inside the tank and inside the tank they see a boot that belonged to one of the missing boys.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So in the meantime, Cosmo's family had managed to come up with $100,000 in bail, and Cosmo was released from jail. Then his friends start coming forward to investigators and they're like, "We actually have something to tell you." One friend said that Cosmo had recently offered him a Nissan Maxima for $500. Guess what kind of car Tom had in the shed...
Em Schulz: Hmm. Is it a Maxima?
Christine Schiefer: Of Cosmo's farm. A fucking Nissan Maxima. So basically he's trying to get rid of this fucking car. So they use that information to arrest Cosmo again, but this time for stealing Tom's car, and this time they set the bail at 5 million cash. So they're like...
Em Schulz: Damn...
Christine Schiefer: You're not getting out this time.
Em Schulz: Yeah, nice try.
Christine Schiefer: Nice try. After more arduous digging investigators removed the huge pig roaster from the ground, underneath was a blue tarp, and they uncovered Dean's body. Tom was buried immediately underneath him. Afterward, they recovered Mark's remains, but Jimi was nowhere to be found.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So three of the family's questions had been answered in the most tragic way. On July 13...
Em Schulz: Like how...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry, go ahead.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say... Do it, I, yeah I'm sure you'll cover it later. I was gonna say, how did they die?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes, you will find out.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like the story, like it definitely has answers. Like we know who did it and what happened, but the big question like why?
Em Schulz: Why? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Is never really answered, which is very overwhelming and...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know, frustrating.
Em Schulz: Thank you for the warning.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: 'Cause otherwise...
Christine Schiefer: I know, but we do...
Em Schulz: I was hoping for it.
Christine Schiefer: Figure out how they passed away and all that. Umm.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So on July 13th, the night they found three of the boys, and on July 13th, the district attorney made a deal with Cosmo DiNardo. They said, "If you tell investigators what happened and where to find Jimi's body, you will not face the death penalty." So he took the deal.
Em Schulz: Whoa, okay.
Christine Schiefer: They also brought in Cosmo's cousin. His name is Sean Kratz, he was 20 years old, and Cosmo had basically pointed at him as his accomplice.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So they bring Sean in as well. And it's very unsettling to listen to the interviews with police because Cosmo is very casual. Uh, he, he's almost bragging about what happened or like, as if he's just telling a funny story. Like it just doesn't seem like it really resonates...
Em Schulz: Like total no empathy.
Christine Schiefer: Like no empathy or no, even like realizing how big of a deal this is.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so yeah, he's talking in this kind of matter of fact tone, uh, and he used an aerial photo to show investigators where Jimi was buried. And he told investigators what happened. He said on July 5th when, uh, Jimi told his parents like, "I'm just gonna run out to Chick-fil-A to meet my friends." He drove Jimi out to his parent's farm to sell him weed. So he had told his friends, "Hey, I'm gonna go buy some weed," so that part was true. And apparently Jimi was short on the cash he was supposed to bring as payment. So in a calm and casual tone, Cosmo told investigators, "So I look at him like, yo, bud, what? Ha ha, he he, this is not a joke." And he apparently had brought $800 in cash and not $8,000 in cash.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: So Cosmo said, "We get out of the truck and I shoot him..."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: "I go get the backhoe, dig a hole, say a prayer, and put him in the hole." And they're like...
Em Schulz: It was that easy for him.
Christine Schiefer: It was that easy.
Em Schulz: Just black and white.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It wasn't even like, "Oh, not enough come back tomorrow or something."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But let me tell you this part which is almost more disturbing or adds to the disturbing. He never had any weed to sell them.
Em Schulz: [gasp] So no matter what he was... He just wanted to rob them.
Christine Schiefer: He just wanted to kill him.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's true 'cause $800 wasn't enough to rob him? Like.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He... Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And so they still are kind of like...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: "What the fuck?" Like, why? And two days later, Dean, Tom and Mark basically met the same fate. So even though those three and Jimi didn't know each other, they basically had the same situation.
Em Schulz: He was just...
Christine Schiefer: He was just the early practice round.
Em Schulz: He was just selecting from his pool of friends...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Em Schulz: And whether or not they knew each other, he was like, "Well, this person needs weed, this person will want weed."
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. So at first he got Jimi, and then what what their parents... What Jimi's grandparents suggested was, grandma mentioned, umm, was perhaps Cosmo had killed him, and then had like a... Got a rush from it or felt like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Oh, I can do this again," you know? And so that, that's the only real explanation as to why after Jimi, he did it to three more people.
Em Schulz: And so quickly, like that's really weird because it...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, it'd be one thing not, I mean, you know what I mean by this.
Christine Schiefer: I do...
Em Schulz: But it'd be one thing if you're... If you kill a person and then like have some sort of itch you need to scratch again in a couple weeks or something after that rush dies off. But to kill one person and then basically a weekend later be like I...
Christine Schiefer: 48 hours later, yeah.
Em Schulz: I, I need three... I need to do this three more times.
Christine Schiefer: At once. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, at once. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, talk about escalating.
Em Schulz: That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so this is essentially as much information as they could get. Umm, they did get some details about the murders themselves. Uh, so Cosmo shot Mark multiple times, but Mark was still alive and now paralyzed after he was shot multiple times. And...
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Cosmo had run out of ammo.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I know. So he said that Mark was kinda laying there and saying like, "I can't move my legs," and Cosmo went and got the backhoe and just drove over him.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And just was like, "Okay, that's done."
Em Schulz: To know the last thing he saw he couldn't move, he just saw the car coming at him.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's horrible.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's like so fucking dark. And again, like as he's describing this to investigators, he sounds totally at ease. Umm, there's no remorse, it's like he's telling like a funny story over a beer.
Em Schulz: Fucking sick.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And, and they're like, as if he's trying to impress them, you know? And so Cosmo took credit for the murder of Jimi, Tom and Mark, but he insisted that his cousin Sean killed Dean in the barn with all the blood, you know?
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So Sean did admit to Dean's murder, he got the same plea deal, and, uh, he was also able to stay off death row. So Sean killed Dean in the barn and then only hours later, Cosmo brought Tom and Mark to the property to kill them too. So all four young men were lured to the farm under the pretense of buying weed. Umm, but still there was no real motive for why these four boys were killed, uh, the crimes didn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But, you know, Cosmo admitted to them and so did Sean. So Cosmo was sentenced to four consecutive life sentences with no opportunity of parole, and Sean was sentenced to life in prison. So this year, uh, in 2023, the victim's family settled wrongful death lawsuits that they had filed against the DiNardo family. And according to the DiNardos, Cosmo had been a model student, a perfect son, until 2016 when he began struggling with some serious mental illness.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, he had a couple diagnoses, I don't necessarily wanna get into them, our, our researcher made a great point that like, umm, it might lead to or contribute to harmful stigmas to like list out...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: What he was suffering from, but just know that that's a big part of, umm, their defense. So he had become obsessed with Mexican drug cartels and the methods with which they disposed of bodies. So he was almost like fixated on that, umm.
Em Schulz: So it's like he was testing them out or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, exactly. He was like researching them before the death. So it was almost like the weed thing was just a ploy to like, kill them and then like dispose off their bodies to...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Try it out. Umm, despite having previous issues with handling firearms though, Cosmo's parents continually gave him access to guns, ATVs, farm equipment and their vacant property. So one of the lawsuits claimed Cosmo's parents provided him a "playland for illegal acts." Which is fair. I mean if he's struggling seriously with mental health issues, has gotten in trouble for guns and they're just like letting him roam free with weapons then, you know, it's probably not the best move. In the end the residents of Bucks County felt a sort of sense of relief, umm, after the four disappearances, uh, because the culprits had been caught so quickly and charged and went straight to prison. Umm, no one had to worry that there was somebody still on the loose, you know, hunting for the next victim.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And their hope is that eventually Bucks County might feel safe again, but of course, the families of the four victims couldn't just move on. You know, umm, Dean's father said losing his son left a hole in his heart, all four boys were loved by so many people and their absence in so many lives will never go away. Loyola University Maryland started a scholarship in Jimi's name to honor his academic passion, honor his memory and the friends and families of all four young men continually speak on how wonderful, loving and kind they were.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: As an example Tom's girlfriend said that the day he died, she had visited him at work where they got in a conversation with his coworkers about the things that make him happy. According to her, Tom confidently said, "Money doesn't make me happy, my family and friends do." In the media they've become known as The Lost Boys of Bucks County. And that is the story from 2017.
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: That's a wild one.
Em Schulz: It's sick.
Christine Schiefer: It is, yeah. It's...
Em Schulz: That's really, really sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so tragic and it's like that feeling of, "For what?" You know, like you just...
Em Schulz: Yeah, it wasn't even... It was just for the fun of it, like just to...
Christine Schiefer: Snuffed out four lives like for what? You know, it's, yeah, it's so fucking tragic.
Em Schulz: Ruined four families.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like, oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And like the, I think it was just especially sad too to see Jimi's grandparents, umm, who raised him talk about him and say, like his grandfather was saying, "You know, we always expected him to take care of us when we are older."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know and now he is...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Just wiped off the face of the earth just gone. Umm.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So just really, really tragic and uh, I mean, thankfully it was solved, I guess, but...
Em Schulz: Yeah. At least they, they know what happened.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But like, almost it's that double-edged sword of like, you wanna know what happened, but you don't wanna know what happened, you know?
Christine Schiefer: But you don't want that to, that to have been it. Yeah, it's like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so.
Em Schulz: Wow, well thanks.
Christine Schiefer: Are you excited for a our ghost, our ghost hunt? After this to distract?
Em Schulz: Yeah, I definitely need a distraction. Thank you. Uh, yeah. Maybe for the best that we have this, these After Hours, 'cause then at least I don't leave the rest, I don't live the rest of the day feeling like such trash. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's a nice distraction for all of us, uh.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Especially, well, all of us if you pay us money for Patreon [laughter] I guess.
Em Schulz: I guess so.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, for the rest of you go uh, go smell a flower.
Em Schulz: Away. No.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Go away.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: No go s...
Christine Schiefer: Go smell a flower, go have a sip of water or coffee.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Drink some water, this is your reminder, your weekly reminder to drink some water.
Christine Schiefer: Your weekly reminder. Yeah.
Em Schulz: I wish I could give you a reminder more often but this...
Christine Schiefer: A daily reminder.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Is your weekly reminder, replay this every day until we record another episode so you have a daily reminder.
Christine Schiefer: That's... I don't think you need to listen to that story every day for a week, but, umm.
Em Schulz: Just this, just like this one minute clip.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, just this clip. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, until then, drink your water, see you over at Patreon. See you next week. And.
Christine Schiefer: That's.
Em Schulz: Why.
Christine Schiefer: We.
Em Schulz: Drink.