E346 A Witch's Rap Battle and a Cursed Fart
TOPICS: JOHN DARRELL, LUCIE BLACKMAN
Lucie Blackman
It's episode 346 and if seven people fart in the woods, then, sorry, you're possessed now! This week Em takes us down an old English rabbit hole with the story of John Darrell, one of the most fraudulent exorcists of all time. Then Christine covers the devastating case of Lucie Blackman. Thither is a shit of an able bodied horse... and that's why we drink!
Transcript
[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Hey, you.
Em Schulz: Hey, you. What's, what's going on?
Christine Schiefer: Um, okay. [laughter] I tried to do a cool casual thing where I was like, "Oh, Em, I have something cool to say in the intro," and I've got so wigged out that now I'm feeling insecure about it. But...
Em Schulz: Who got wigged out? Me?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You were like, "Okay." And now I feel like I've stepped on your toes.
Em Schulz: Well, no. Uh, the okay was you saying, "Ask why I drink," which was like, that was the plan. [laughter] But... So...
Christine Schiefer: I know, but sometimes we get on a topic and then like spend 15 minutes and I've, I have like uh, a big thing, so I wanna get to it...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Before we like, you know, go the wrong direction. So this...
Em Schulz: Okay. Hang on, hang on. [clears throat]
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Hey Christine, why do you, why do you drink?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, um, that's a great question, Em. Thank you so much for thinking of me. So we got this... I don't know if you've gotten this yet. I feel like you would've told me, but we got these, this package, uh, is a belated birthday gift. And I don't know how often you check your mail over there, but, uh, we... I finally checked my mail and we got this amazing fucking birthday package and it's from the... And That's Why I Drink secret gift group. Of course, 'cause they're always doing things. And they were like, you always... They basically said like, "You two innocently say something like, 'We wanna like make it happen,'" and then they like actually do. So this year... Last year, they made those tarot cards, remember?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: This year, they made fucking cryptid trading cards. Like you had said...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: You wanted... Like, remember we talked about baseball cards and like you were like, "I wish there were like cryptid... "
Em Schulz: Yeah, no, I remember.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: So they're called...
Em Schulz: What did they look like?
Christine Schiefer: Lemon Mascots League.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And they have like a, another whole, uh, thing where each, each, um, cryptid has its own, uh, like player quick facts and it has, uh, the artist, their Instagram handle, uh... Uh-oh. Sorry. My baby's in the camera going, "Mama, hold me." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: Mama help? Hold on a second. Sorry.
Em Schulz: Is it a ghost?
Christine Schiefer: No. She keeps saying, "Mama, help." Hold on. She probably dropped her paci.
Em Schulz: Do you go get it?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, gotta send Blaise in. Mommy's working. Um, anyway, [laughter] back to work.
Em Schulz: Working to... Working to pay for more pacis just for you.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. By the way, those things are like fucking socks. They disappear and I'm like buying new ones every few weeks. Um, okay. Oh my gosh. Okay. But by the way, the first card in the pack, this is wild 'cause you just covered this and they would have no way of knowing.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Baba Yaga.
Em Schulz: Yo.
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: [gasp] That gave me chills. That was so wild.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that... I, I turned the flip, the pack over and I was like, "That's the first card that appeared?" And it was... I opened it yesterday and you had just covered it. Of course, the next one is fucking Bagel Bites. Uh...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: But there's so many cute ones... Like these are just... They're just so talented and creative and I can't wait for you to open yours so that, um, we both can have a pack. Can we talk about this? This one has you on it. It says "The Eugene Emeralds".
Em Schulz: Oh, that's a, that's one of, uh, my, my mini, my minor leagues.
Christine Schiefer: Minor league team. Oh my God, the Fredericksburg Ever Napper, It's nap o'clock somewhere. It's Em wearing a shirt that says "It's nap o'clock somewhere." [laughter] It's your own baseball card. I feel like I gotta read the stats for that. Hold on one second.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my God, that's so cool.
Christine Schiefer: That's the most important one.
Em Schulz: Wow. Oh my gosh. And, and so just like our tarot cards, which, which we were very lucky to get from them last time, it seems like every person gets to like pick a card to make and then...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: It builds out a whole deck.
Christine Schiefer: It's like the individual... Exactly. The individual artist, like at... So the Ever Napper was created by Darlene uh, she/her and, uh, Darlene Blankenship is her Facebook. And, uh, it says, "Player quick facts: Can be found napping in the dugout". [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Fucking wooden bench like laid out. [laughter] "Best friends with the Hircine Shifter and hates lemons."
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, where can this crypt be found? Fredericksburg, Virginia, with recent spottings in Los Angeles. May I, uh, make an addendum that says Burbank High School campus?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, please don't say I've been found on a high school campus.
Christine Schiefer: No! [laughter]
Em Schulz: You fucking creep. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I didn't mean it like that. I just meant, let's just say Burbank. Let's just say Burbank. Uh, is there a real team with this mascot? Not yet is what it says. So...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't actually... I, I thank you for telling me. I did not know that I could expect that anytime soon. But since I don't have anything to show on my end, I'll quickly show the, and that's why we tarot to people. Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Oh, also genius. Um...
Em Schulz: Also genius. Where all...
Christine Schiefer: And, and I... Uh... Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say where all the tarot cards are the same situation. I, I... This is an unopened one. They... I was lucky enough they gave us a few and this is my display one. And so I haven't even opened it because if something ever happens to my other one, I have a...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] You have a backup. I know.
Em Schulz: But I love... I... Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I, I spilled a candle all over both of them. So that's where I'm at.
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's fine. It's just... 'Cause the box is shiny, so I was able to scrape most of it off, but I was like, "Wow, I really am a mess." Um, but then as I was opening my mail, this was in there.
Em Schulz: What? Oh!
Christine Schiefer: Look at this fucking oil portrait of Giovani Bernard Schiefer Lampugnale.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, this is by theraviosart. I hope I'm saying that right. Um, Ravi I think sent it, and it, it is like stun... I mean, stunning. And I've already took a bunch of...
Em Schulz: That's...
Christine Schiefer: Photos of Gio and the portrait side by side.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and then just as like uh, a little hat trick, so to speak, um, I, I've been in like a kick with my Squishmallows. Like, you know, I have Leticia Lemon Squishmallow...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, whom I love. And then my brother and I did a Beach Too Sandy episode where we read reviews of Squishmallows and I got just so invested. And so the other day I took an edible and I went shopping on the internet, which is just the most dangerous game I play. And I, I bought... Oh, I forgot him downstairs. So I bought myself a little moth. And the problem was... His name is Berit. And the problem was it's a Canadian-exclusive at only certain gas stations in Canada. And so they...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: So that's the only place to find them. So I had to go on like Poshmark and spend like $30 [laughter] on this tiny little thing. But I needed him. So he's downstairs on my bed. But, um, I also bought myself this navy blue, uh, Bigfoot Squishmallow named Dani.
Em Schulz: Oh my...
Christine Schiefer: She's so cute and I love her. It's like a comfort...
Em Schulz: Did you actually... Did you name her Dani or it came with the name?
Christine Schiefer: No, that's just her name. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: And then I opened my mail yesterday, and this is a Squishmallow that I said I had fallen in love with and always wanted and somebody mailed it to me, a listener actually. And, uh, this is Avery, my mallard.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm very happy for you.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you so much.
Em Schulz: I, I don't understand the allure of a Squishmallow, but um...
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: I understand like what they feel like, they feel great, like, they're... Like sensory-wise.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, they do.
Em Schulz: But, um, but I've never been a collector of like any, uh, like, uh, like stuffed animals.
Christine Schiefer: I just have such a, as you know, like a compulsion to anthropomorphise everything...
Em Schulz: Well, I think...
Christine Schiefer: And fall in love with it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I think, uh, my thing is like uh, if I know there's like a wild amount of something that I could collect, then I'm either... I think half the reason is I get overwhelmed very quickly that I'm like, "Oh, I can never collect all of them." And two, if I try to collect all of them, I think I would start feeling really guilty halfway through because...
Christine Schiefer: Would like take over your life and money.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So like, that's why I never got into like Funko Pops or anything like that 'cause I knew, I knew early on that it was gonna be bad. So I just never let myself.
Christine Schiefer: I just like very... I feel like I very specifically... I don't even wanna collect them. I just like grow attached to very specific ones. So I have like my little characters that I, that I love. And, um, if you guys have not seen Avery the Mallard, I think I genuinely think it's the funniest Squishmallow they've ever created. He has like these round eyes. He's so epic...
Em Schulz: He does...
Christine Schiefer: This is another Canadian. They're all Canadian, these ones. I don't know.
Em Schulz: He does look like he has seen how he's gonna die and when.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're right. He's looked into a witch's eyes and had a really traumatic experience. Can I read his little bio? It says...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Don't let Avery's size fool you. He is a skilled left wingman for the Mallow's rugby team and one day wants to be a coach. His whole family comes to watch and they bring popsicles to celebrate once the game is over." [laughter] It's like...
Em Schulz: It's like they asked a five-year-old what the bio should be...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Which I appreciate.
Christine Schiefer: I think they might have. Um, so, you know, I just, I just love them. And, um, I was so excited. 'Cause this arrived yesterday, my Bigfoot Squish. Um, my Barrett moth arrived yesterday. I have to bring him, I'll show him next episode, 'cause he is a delight. And then Avery arrived from fan mail and I was like, "This is the best." I'm, I'm really having a...
Em Schulz: You're having a day.
Christine Schiefer: Midlife crisis. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I don't think that's a midlife crisis.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: I... There's no age on appreciating a good anything.
Christine Schiefer: Look at us. And then Leticia's over there. So I got the whole gang. Anyway, I just wanted to, uh, [laughter] throw that out there. Um, anyway, Em why do you drink besides my erratic compulsions?
Em Schulz: Well, no, I appreciate your erratic compulsions because today I feel like I really threw everyone like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh, you did not. I didn't, I didn't realize you were actually feeling guilty about that. Please do not.
Em Schulz: I... Well, I just, I felt bad 'cause I, I didn't... I thought we were recording a listener's episode, and so I was scrambling to do notes in time, but I only had like an, like an hour or so to like make sure my notes look good enough for an episode. I just... So I, I feel like I went into a tizzy and I feel like, like, you know, on the sidelines I put everyone else into a tizzy. So, which even if it's not true, my brain has decided that's what happened. So, [laughter] um, I just...
Christine Schiefer: Well, I don't know if it's better or worse for me to tell you. You're fine. And it's all good. And we're... We didn't even...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: Think twice about it. So I know that your brain's gonna tell you whatever it's gonna tell you, but if it needs a counterpoint, I'm here.
Em Schulz: Oh, thank you. I do appreciate that. I will say my, um, uh, reason, a good reason I drink, um, my, uh, buh, buh, buh... Hm. Let's find something. What's going on in my life? Uh... Oh, I found uh, as you might recall, uh, the escape room that I made you forever ago.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, I apparently, after you left, I just like shoved it all in the back of a closet and like... But I recently have been going through my stuff and cleaning up that closet.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, like the physical escape room. I thought you meant the, the online one.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. Um the, uh... If you follow Patreon, you might've seen it a few years ago for Christine and Eva, I made them a...
Christine Schiefer: I made like...
Em Schulz: An escape room.
Christine Schiefer: I made like the most unhinged activity ever. And then I turned around and made it the most unhinged YouTube video [laughter] of all time. So really...
Em Schulz: It's a great video. I still watch it sometimes.
Christine Schiefer: It's crazy town. Like Eva and I screaming, "A fish!" Like I will never forget that moment. Um... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, I turned, I turned my apartment into an escape room um, and I... It's, it's a great video. If you're a part of Patreon, please go watch it. Um, but I just found all of the, like 15 treasure chests with like combination locks all super glued to them. Like I just found like a whole bunch of stuff. But it has, um... I was trying to figure out...
Christine Schiefer: Combination locks. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was trying to figure out how to like reuse them. And so I've, I feel like I'm about to have an artsy moment.
Christine Schiefer: Oh-ho-ho! [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, I found... Here's one. Uh, oh, I don't know if I could show it to you. I... Remember I like, I found like the, um, like a mag... I found out ways to like make magnet.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I was... That, that was the one where I was so stupid. I was like... Em needed to like break character and be like, "Use the fucking magnet, idiot," and I was like, "Okay."
Em Schulz: So it's called Safety First. I think this is for babies. This is like a baby lock.
Christine Schiefer: It is. It's... I, I, now I see them everywhere and I have them and I'm like, "Wow, I was really dumb back then." But yeah, it's like you use the magnet to unlock it.
Em Schulz: It was pre-baby. You didn't...
Christine Schiefer: It was pre-baby. Yes.
Em Schulz: But so I, I like, this was... They had a... Christine had to find this first and then...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: There was a box that had an "X marks the spot" and then you had to use this to unlock the box. And so it became a whole thing. But I, I recently found it again and I'm like, "Ooh, how do I use this again in my life? I'm very excited." So I, I... The reason I drink is I feel like, I feel a creativity burst about to happen.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so excited. That's honestly, uh, to me one, of the best feelings when you get on that kick of like, "I have a project and I have uh, a goal and something, a vision, a creative vision." I love that feeling.
Em Schulz: I love a vision.
Christine Schiefer: Ah, me too.
Em Schulz: Well anyway, uh, that's why I drink. What are you drinking, before we get into this?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Um, you know what, this is gonna shock everyone. I'm drinking water. What the fuck? [laughter]
Em Schulz: Woah! Wow!
Christine Schiefer: Don't crash your car. I know that's startling. [laughter] But, um, I am drinking water for the first time ever on this show. So cheers.
Em Schulz: Congratulations. In a, in a big Stanley.
Christine Schiefer: In a Stanley, 'cause apparently I'm a basic bitch and I watch one TikTok two years ago and I was like, "I need that." What is wrong with me?
Em Schulz: I... Is it the 40-ounce?
Christine Schiefer: Hm. It's a big one.
Em Schulz: I feel like... Isn't the 40-ounce the big one?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. It's probably... It's the one that's always on TeacherTok. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. I was gonna make fun of you for being a teacher, but I didn't know if that was too niche. But, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I just love TeacherTok, and so I just sometimes end up there.
Em Schulz: Well, speaking of teachers, I am apparently the child 'cause I'm drinking juice boxes.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm!
Em Schulz: I have...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry I didn't ask. I was busy hydrating.
Em Schulz: I have Orange Lava Burst and Torrential Tropical Punch, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yum. I like, Hi-C. I miss that stuff.
Em Schulz: I love Hi-C. And I've been recently making it, uh, useful with mocktails.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: That's fun.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I've been loving it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I just went to a wedding and this was the first time I'd seen this, and uh, you know how they have like the couple... Each has like a cocktail, like his and hers cocktail? Like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Custom cocktail. So hers was like a, um, a mojito and then his was a mocktail and I was like, "Oh, that's great." 'Cause he doesn't drink, I guess. So I was like, "Oh, that's so fun. His custom drink was a mocktail." And I was with a girl who just told me she was pregnant. And so I was like, "Oh my God, this is like [laughter] the best wedding." She got all these like cute blueberry lemonades 'cause she was like, "I never get to have like a cocktail, a mocktail, you know, out, like a pretty drink." So, uh, she was very excited and I was like, "That's such a clever idea to have like a custom mocktail at your wedding."
Em Schulz: That's so lovely.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I was really into that.
Em Schulz: I, uh...
Christine Schiefer: I mean I wasn't, 'cause I didn't want it, but I was into it for everyone else. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I wonder if you could spike it though. If you could have like the mocktails...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for suresies.
Em Schulz: Just like add something to it.
Christine Schiefer: I just put some vodka in there for sure.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Okay. Well, uh, now that we know what we're drinking and why, uh, reminder to stay hydrated and drink some water, everybody. This is...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Your weekly reminder.
Christine Schiefer: I can finally follow the rules. I'm so proud of myself.
Em Schulz: And, and with that, we've got, um, a scary story. Well, I, I don't know how scary mine are. I feel like yours are definitely the scarier ones because they're more based in reality. But I've got...
Christine Schiefer: A lot people can't listen to the, your half. Like I feel like a lot of people are like too scared of the ghost stuff, which is...
Em Schulz: Really?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. People have told me that.
Em Schulz: I feel like... Oh, interesting. I feel like a lot of people only listen to your half. [laughter] I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so. I genuinely don't think so. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I feel like, I feel like... I mean, I don't want there to be a poll out there. I'm not trying to like imply anything to everybody.
Christine Schiefer: No, no, no. We don't wanna know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But I don't like, I don't actually wanna know. But I feel like we're part of the true crime podcast community. I feel like people really come...
Christine Schiefer: Fair.
Em Schulz: For the true crime. And I feel like I am just kind of like an additive, if people want something else. Like...
Christine Schiefer: I feel like it's stay for... Come for the true crime, stay for all the ghosts. But some people... No. But uh, that... To be fair though, a lot of people do see our logo and we're like, "Oh my God, Ouija board." Like they come for the spooky stuff, you know.
Em Schulz: Maybe, but they see Ouija board covered in blood, you know?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Listen...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: We're peanut butter and jelly. Some people like peanut butter, some people like jelly. I just think some people like jelly a little more than the peanut butter. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: I like both together. So, you know, that's me being the people pleaser always.
Em Schulz: That's, that's, that's very nice. Okay. Well for those who do listen to my half, hello. Uh, it's about to begin.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hello. You're acting like nobody's ever listened to you talk before. [laughter] Hello, I'm finally here.
Em Schulz: Here is, uh, a biopic of John Darrell...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Who, uh, is now considered, or the most fraudulent exorcist of England.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh, this is a true crime.
Em Schulz: Yeah. See? Am I stepping on toes? Let's find out. [laughter] So he was born... This guy's John Darrell. He was born in 1562.
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: Uh, and he was born in England and it, it's a town in Nottinghamshire, which I know I'm saying in the most bastardized way.
Christine Schiefer: So many syllables. Nottinghamshire. Nottinghamshire.
Em Schulz: Do they say "shire" or "sure"?
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait. Nottinghamshire.
Em Schulz: Nottinghamshire. Notting-HAM-shire.
Christine Schiefer: Cheshire.
Em Schulz: Like Hampshire, like New Hampshire?
Christine Schiefer: New Hampshire?
Em Schulz: Notting... Nottingharmshire.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they say New Ham-"shire".
Em Schulz: Wow. If they were listening before, they're not now. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: You had six ghost-loving people in England and they've all left. [laughter] So fucking hell, you're losing all our ghost base listeners.
Em Schulz: I like to think they have their own like nickname for a town like that with so many letters. Like, do they just call themselves like N-shire? NHS?
Christine Schiefer: I doubt... I doubt it, 'cause I feel like that's probably a really common ending for these towns. So you'd have to do something more like specific.
Em Schulz: The Nott.
Christine Schiefer: Or the Notty-notts, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So that's where he was born in uh...
Christine Schiefer: Cool. [laughter]
Em Schulz: 1562. And then 15...
Christine Schiefer: He would not have understood any word of what we just said, by the way. Like, if he traveled in time and like witnessed this conversation, like most of the words, he probably wouldn't even understand what was happening. It's weird to think about.
Em Schulz: That is weird. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Well, like...
Em Schulz: I'm gonna actively try to...
Christine Schiefer: Even when I keep saying like, he'd be like, "What are you... " I don't know.
Em Schulz: He would think we all have a tick.
Christine Schiefer: That's true. We probably do.
Em Schulz: He was born in 1562 and in 1579 he graduated, uh, from Queens College. And he was planning to study law in London, but that did not work out. He was born in the midst of the, uh, Protestant Reformation when...
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: England was splitting from the Catholic church. And he was an Anglican.
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: And some Anglicans, including him, became Puritans because he thought that the Protestant church was still too Catholic and wanted... They wanted stricter reforms. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: What is wrong with those people? But, okay, sure.
Em Schulz: So he leaned toward Puritanism very, very hard, um, and loved how strict, uh, he was. That's excellent.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And he gained a reputation as somewhat of an unofficial spiritual leader. But by 1586, there was already talks of either witchcraft or demonic possession going on. And there was a rumor that there was a girl in town named Katharine Wright, and she was possessed.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Um, her neighbor recommended getting help from John because he, you know, was a good, strict, pious man. And reminder, he does not have like any qualifications regarding demonic possession.
Christine Schiefer: Right. He's not gone to be a reverend. Right? Like he's just...
Em Schulz: No. He just...
Christine Schiefer: Part of the religion.
Em Schulz: He's just strong with God. So they were like...
Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.
Em Schulz: "He will do."
Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay.
Em Schulz: So John goes to Katharine's house to pray and expel the demons from her.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But it did not work. Can you believe it? Because he...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Again, had no qualifications. Uh, his excuse was that the demons were just too powerful. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure.
Em Schulz: He declares that the demons could not be acting alone. So now, again, completely off the handle, no qualifications to suggest this, he goes, "Oh, the demons, they're not acting alone. Obviously there's a witch in town that's causing this."
Christine Schiefer: Obviously there's no other explanation.
Em Schulz: So to help Katharine, John demands... I guess he's like, "I'm still in this with you, but I don't know, a witch is at fault." He decides he's gonna help Katharine and demands that she stays awake and fasts and prays up to three, three days at a time. So for three days, no food, no sleep, just praying.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Um, during her fast, she allegedly accuses another woman of practicing witchcraft. And so, and this woman's name is Margaret Roper.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, and I mean, keep in mind, again, she was sleep-deprived, she was starving, she was losing her mind.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So, uh, out of desperation probably, she just said Margaret Roper's name, which we've talked about it a million times. We are...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Not the only people to think about this. But it is wild that just any name that came to someone's mind, they're now a victim of this too.
Christine Schiefer: It, it could be someone you like, someone you know, your own parent, like it... Especially if you're being tortured, which I'm not necessarily saying that's what's happening, but she's at least being coerced into...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: A very bad place.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Well, so she said Margaret Roper's name, and this was a time... This was, by the way, a time when there was only like bad magic currently that that could be illegal. Like they still had some people practicing good magic or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure.
Em Schulz: Not everyone was burned at the stake for witchcraft. It was only if you were doing harm to others.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, it gets worse though um, in the future, but at this point...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, look out, good witches.
Em Schulz: At this point in time, it's just, if it... Just bad magic. Um, so apparently, Margaret is the reason that Katharine is possessed, and Margaret must have sent the demons over. For what, we don't know. [giggle] And John not only wanted to get rid of these demons in Katharine, but decided that the law needed to be involved.
Christine Schiefer: Oy vey.
Em Schulz: Of course. Uh, this is where I give everyone a very quick fun history fact, which is that in 1562, uh, which ironically I think is the year he was born. Yeah. Look at that.
Christine Schiefer: That sounds right.
Em Schulz: 1562. [laughter] Queen Elizabeth I passed the act against conjurations, enchantments and witchcrafts.
Christine Schiefer: Oy vey.
Em Schulz: Uh, which this is where I also remind you, when I worked at Chipotle, uh, the recipe book was called like Spells, Potions and Incantations.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And so conjurations, enchantments and witchcraft sounds very similar. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: They ripped that off from Chipotle.
Em Schulz: They did. I don't know if that's like something that people aren't supposed to know, but the recipe book at Chipotle is literally called that.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: At least the one at mine was. I don't know... For all I know, they just like slipped it in like the top of the binder.
Christine Schiefer: Your friend just did it for fun. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But I, I have the... I've never seen another recipe book from Chipotle, so...
Christine Schiefer: That's really fun. I actually really like that.
Em Schulz: Thank you. I'll tell Chipotle.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So Queen Elizabeth passed this act and it was the predecessor to the Scottish Witchcraft Act of 1603, and it helped move witchcraft legislation from the church to the general courts. So it was making things a legal matter.
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: And this act created a two-strike system where the first time you're caught performing witchcraft, or at least at this time, bad witchcraft, it was a felony that ended in a harsh prison sentence. And then...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my.
Em Schulz: The second time you get caught, you are put to death.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Lord. Okay.
Em Schulz: If the crime was bad enough, or if you had someone like pretty aggressively against you and had some sort of power or say in this, they would just skip the felony and you would just be put to death on the first strike.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God... Okay. That just seems like so unfair and...
Em Schulz: So, um...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, why am I shocked? I don't know. But it's...
Em Schulz: Circumstantial. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Or like, uh, what do you call it? What...
Em Schulz: Subjective.
Christine Schiefer: Subjective. It's so subjective.
Em Schulz: So if it was bad enough to someone, you could just be put to death.
Christine Schiefer: Great.
Em Schulz: Knowing this, John the Puritan... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Boy. God. Okay.
Em Schulz: Made, made a formal accusation against Margaret and attempted to have her prosecuted, but it, it failed at least. Um, in fact, I don't know what Margaret... I don't know how she had her hands planted in this, but not only did they deny John to prosecute Margaret, but the courts dismissed John and even threatened to throw him in prison for false accusations.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, wow! That... You don't see that very often.
Em Schulz: No. So I was... I don't know how... Like maybe he accidentally went and told like Margaret's husband about this or something and...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Uh, and maybe someone she knows was involved with the courts. Or maybe he was just like so obviously like a skeezbag and everyone was like...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he was known... Yeah, maybe they were like, "Oh, this fucking guy," you know.
Em Schulz: But like, how many times do you ever see like a town defend a woman from witchcraft accusations?
Christine Schiefer: Literally never.
Em Schulz: She must have been incredible. Like, I...
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna say, he must've picked the wrong gal to go after.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. I mean, to be fair, I'm sure other women are also lovely, but...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, not that they were incredible... [laughter]
Em Schulz: But this woman had some sort of advantage. So John...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe it was witchcraft. Like maybe it's a full circle. She was like, "I'll fucking... "
Em Schulz: That would be...
Christine Schiefer: "Hex the shit out of you, asshole."
Em Schulz: That would've been amazing if the only woman to get away was actually a witch and...
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Bewitched the entire town to not know otherwise.
Christine Schiefer: Just saying. Just saying.
Em Schulz: So John decides to forget about Margaret and she, he's like, "Okay, this is a dead-end." But Katharine is still possessed, you know. "Even if I think it's Margaret's fault,..."
Christine Schiefer: Too bad.
Em Schulz: Whatever. It's... Katharine 's still possessed. So I obviously have to exorcise her." And this... I wanna remind everyone...
Christine Schiefer: Obviously. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I wanna remind everyone he's already exorcised her and it didn't work. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So this is now round two of him saying, "I'm gonna save her." This time uh, it did not fail, although I like to think that he probably just started telling everybody it was working, 'cause God forbid, he failed twice. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: In two weeks... Sorry. First time around, it did not work even a little bit. This time around, he expels eight demons from her in two weeks.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God!
Em Schulz: I think by doing the exact same steps as the last time. I can't imagine he has a lot of variety to him. Um, so I don't...
Christine Schiefer: His imagination doesn't seem to be like at the forefront of his personality.
Em Schulz: No. He's like, "This time it'll work. Just, just trust me, bro," is the source.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Hold my beer.
Em Schulz: So then he skips town and lays low to avoid the magistrate because that was the guy who told him, "I'm going to like... "
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: You know... "You're, you're in trouble and if you do anything else about this, I will imprison you for false accusations."
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So that freaked him out enough that after he handled Katharine's exorcism, he just like left town. He was like, "I don't wanna be near this guy. I don't wanna get caught with anything."
Christine Schiefer: See ya.
Em Schulz: This, though, unfortunately, cemented his reputation in town as an actual spiritual advisor because he saved Katharine. And John was later ordained as a minister in another town.
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: Uh, and eventually he would start telling his congregation that the devil was everywhere. And when he means everywhere, he doesn't just mean like, "Oh, the devil is with all of us and trying to, you know, mess with our thoughts and cause us to sin." He meant like the physical devil is around and like walking around.
Christine Schiefer: Just like hiding out.
Em Schulz: Um... Yeah. Just peeking around every corner. Um... Okay. I don't know who...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Who believed that or who didn't, but that was his pitch.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, okay. It's hard to disprove that, you know. It's like, "No, he's not. Well, you just can't... You just, you, you just missed him."
Em Schulz: He's just really stealthy and no one has ever caught him.
Christine Schiefer: He's so sneaky, that motherfucker. You'll never spot him. But I can, you know.
Em Schulz: Right. I was gonna say, but he obviously has his...
Christine Schiefer: Special relationship.
Em Schulz: Had hangouts with this guy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: John didn't do, um, another exorcism until the magistrate died because that now he was finally off his back. So now he's not scared anymore and he's like, "Okay, great. I'm gonna go back to exorcisms and I'm gonna go back to saving people."
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: He finally settles in this town that has been shortened to the name Ashby, but I think it was called Ashby de la, de la Zouch.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: But it, it, it's been shortened to Ashby. And in 1596, this is when he really ramps it back up and he is like, "I am here to fix some possessed people." And 13-year-old Thomas Darling goes hunting...
Christine Schiefer: What an adorable name, by the way.
Em Schulz: Thomas Darling. It sounds like a fairytale like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, 'cause it is the name of the family in Peter Pan, right?
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right.
Christine Schiefer: I think.
Em Schulz: Wendy Darling. No, you're right. Uh, Thomas Darling, 13 years old, he goes hunting in the woods with his uncle one day. And apparently, him and his uncle gets separated at some point. Um, and when they're reunited, the uncle says that Thomas is now starting to suffer from fits.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Um, very vague.
Christine Schiefer: Very.
Em Schulz: But apparently by the time he gets home, he is vomiting, hallucinating, apparently he's seizing. He says that he can...
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: He says that he can see a green cat in his room that won't let him sleep. That's terrifying.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: He also sees angels in the window, calls Job from the Bible his brother, and he starts speaking to God by saying, "Heaven opens, Heaven opens. I must go thither," not hither, thither.
Christine Schiefer: Thither? [laughter] Hither and Thither.
Em Schulz: Hither and thither. "I see Christ Jesus, my Savior."
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: "His face shines like the sun and its strength. I will go salute him." And then he like starts clapping out of like excitement that he can see Jesus.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, this is not feeling good mental health-wise.
Em Schulz: Nope. Thomas' family thought he must be bewitched. Which I love that like he's literally seeing God, [chuckle] this...
Christine Schiefer: Right. It feels like it's a...
Em Schulz: And this religious family isn't like excited for him?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I was wondering that too, like, "I see Jesus", like, wouldn't that be the thing you're like, "Oh good, phew."
Em Schulz: It's like, "Oh, okay. Uh, you're on the... You're, you're gonna... "
Christine Schiefer: Of all people, you're gonna see...
Em Schulz: "You're going in the right direction."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, I guess the vomiting, seizing and hallucinating was, uh, probably a lot. And...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: I don't know anywhere in the Bible it says, "Oh, the green cat won't let me go to bed." So, um...
Christine Schiefer: Poor thing. This is sad.
Em Schulz: So his family is, uh, nervous for him, and they think he's bewitched. And they call a local doctor. The doctor, I don't know... Like, there's so many points in this story where I'm like, "Oh, they were doing the right thing," because they call a local doctor and the doctor's like, "He's not... He's, he has an illness that's causing these symptoms, but there's nothing... "
Christine Schiefer: Oh, geez.
Em Schulz: So like they've... The town has protected a woman. The magistrate went after uh, a preacher or a pastor for...
Christine Schiefer: I love this naughty Notties.
Em Schulz: Performing exorcisms. And then the doctor was like, "He's not bewitched. He just has a... He has a sickness that needs to be looked at. He has a condition. But he's not being possessed."
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I mean, that's good, good-ish? I, I don't feel good about the rest of your story, but it's, it's good.
Em Schulz: There's at least points that I usually don't get to talk about.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah! It's a different, a little bit different than usual.
Em Schulz: So the doctor's like, "Everyone, like chillax. It's fine. He's, he just like... We need to take him to a hospital." Um, but Thomas goes, "No, Mama," which I'm assuming that's how he spoke. But he says...
Christine Schiefer: "Thither, thither."
Em Schulz: "No... " [laughter] "Hither and thither, Mama." "I actually am indeed bewitched." Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: And for some reason they listened to the 13-year-old boy and not the doctor. But Thomas tells his whole family he is bewitched. And this is why he's bewitched, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: It's because he... When he was out in the woods, he got separated from his uncle. He runs into a witch.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: The witch is in a gray dress with three warts on her face. And as she walked by, he, say it with me, farted.
Christine Schiefer: What? [laughter] What? What? Double take?
Em Schulz: She walks by, he crop-dusts her, but I guess not because it's, it's loud enough that she hears it.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: And she's so offended that she says,...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: "With a mischief and fart with a bell, I will go to heaven and you will go to hell."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, is that her little hex?
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, I was like, even if that wasn't a witch, she still spoke in rhymes, which I love.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: Um, and also if you're a witch, you're not going to heaven, I thought. So like your rhyme didn't even make sense.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You're lying, I think.
Christine Schiefer: So this is just so someone who likes to rhyme. I think she was just in the middle of like, trying to like learn to like rap battle.
Christine Schiefer: Rap. I was gonna say that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I will say, um, the beginning of that rhyme, she did call him a slur, which I'm not going to use.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, so I just... If you're wondering why it sounded offbeat, it's 'cause I...
Christine Schiefer: It did.
Em Schulz: I missed a little step there. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: But the fact that she says, "You have a fart, a fart like a bell," that's crazy. That's...
Christine Schiefer: So say it again without... Say, say it again. I... 'Cause I misunderstood it, I think, 'cause I didn't understand the... So maybe can you say like blank where the slur goes?
Em Schulz: Yes. Um... Hm. How do I give you a different definition for what it means? Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't know. I can't even begin to imagine what a slur was in the 1500s, to be honest.
Em Schulz: So it's... It wasn't a slur then. It's a slur now.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: And it was, um, the G-word. Let me text it to you. No, I don't wanna text that word either. Um, argh, what do I do?
Christine Schiefer: Can you...
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Can you text it but space out the letters so our NSA agent doesn't know what's going on?
Em Schulz: Argh, that feels weird. Um, it starts with a G and ends with a Y. It's not gay. It's, um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I got it. I got it, I got it, I got it, got it, got it. So like a, what you would call like uh, a Romani person?
Em Schulz: Yes, yes.
Christine Schiefer: Like an offensive slur for somebody of that culture. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yes. How did you figure it out? You just...
Christine Schiefer: I typed in slurs that start with G. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I don't recommend doing that, guys. It's... I'm not proud of it, like, I'll be honest. Um...
Em Schulz: Anyway, so a slur, and then I'm just gonna go beep as the slur.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Okay. So this is what the witch said to Thomas after he like blasts his ass. He goes, [laughter] here, "Bleep with a mischief and fart with a bell, I will go to heaven and you will go to hell."
Christine Schiefer: Got it. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Em Schulz: Um... Hm. I, I don't know why she even picked that word for him, but, okay. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: Random.
Em Schulz: After this interaction, then, you know, he met up with his uncle and he had these fits. Um, but Thomas quickly gains fame from this possession and later becomes known as the Boy of Burton.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, John was called in to help and he instructed Thomas to fast and pray for many days. So...
Christine Schiefer: For God's sake, this guy.
Em Schulz: He's pulling the same stops out. He's, he's like not doing anything original. But it worked for Katharine, so it must work for him.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it must.
Em Schulz: And like Katharine, after days of no sleep and no food, Thomas accuses a local woman of witchcraft.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: Go figure.
Christine Schiefer: Go figure.
Em Schulz: He accuses Alice Gooderidge. And Alice was an easy target because her mom had also been accused before of witchcraft. The town had wondered before that maybe Alice is also involved in all of this.
Christine Schiefer: What is wrong with these people?
Em Schulz: And also he's a 13-year-old boy. He must have heard the name around the house or something, or maybe his own...
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: Maybe his own, um, like school friends or something, like "Have you heard about Alice?"
Christine Schiefer: They've been gossiping or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So Alice was brought to Thomas' room. I don't know why. Um, I guess just to see if the witch would be able to approach the possessed. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Like we'll see what would happen.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Uh, and Thomas, just by looking at her, falls into fits.
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: Uh, he...
Christine Schiefer: He starts farting around, [laughter] this motherfucker? I know what you're up to, little kid. I know. You're trouble.
Em Schulz: Alice shows... Alice shows up and Thomas, I guess, I guess if, if she is the witch that it, that caused these possessions in him, he, by looking at her, freaked out and started scratching her and attacking her and trying to make her bleed.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Eww.
Em Schulz: Um, and she screams, "Take blood enough, child. God help thee. Pray for thyself. Thy prayer can do me no good." Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. What does it mean?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know 'cause I don't speak old English, man.
Christine Schiefer: I was like, I thought I got it, then I didn't, then I did.
Em Schulz: "Take blood enough, child." See, this is something that like maybe like if you're an English teacher out there, maybe just take a whole day where you like help children understand how to read this, 'cause even at 31...
Christine Schiefer: But I feel like they did and it was called Shakespeare and I still don't understand what the fuck is going on.
Em Schulz: It was called the Canterbury Tales. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, don't remind me of that. That's a very triggering phrase that you just said. Grendel. Now how do you feel?
Em Schulz: Grendel was rough. Beowulf was rougher.
Christine Schiefer: I know it was rough. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, "Pray for thyself. Thy prayer can do me no good." Okay, so pray, pray for yourself 'cause...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, right. Okay. Oh wait. I do get it. So it's like, pray for yourself. Like, "You're not gonna fix me. I don't need any fixing. You're the one who needs help. You're making me bleed over here."
Em Schulz: If you are an English teacher and there is writing like this, you need to bring Christine in to translate. Um, she just did a great job.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: To the youths. I'll be like, it's lit the way you just... [laughter] Me and my fucking Stanley. I'm gonna be like, "Um, hello. Yo. Uh... " I don't know. I literally can't even pretend like I know any cool words anymore. So sad. So tragic.
Em Schulz: Well... Tragic. Uh, so Alice was arrested for what? Like for...
Christine Schiefer: For what?
Em Schulz: I guess for witchcraft. But she didn't... She was the one that was attacked.
Christine Schiefer: She was like, "Yo, why are you making me bleed?"
Em Schulz: And so they interrogate her. And when they're interrogating her, the prosecutors find witch marks on her body, which, yikes, because witch marks could mean, oh, they found like Thomas like scratched her up and...
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: This is indications of like his possession. But historically, witch marks are when, um, the courts make a woman undress so they can find one blemish on her and claim that it is proof of her being a witch.
Christine Schiefer: I just want all these men to get naked and be like, "Look at my fucking porcelain skin." Yeah, right. You fucking show your smooth, flawless skin, you idiot.
Em Schulz: Like, truly, like, it could be a freckle, it could be you know, any...
Christine Schiefer: Like a freckle, like a skin tag, like... I mean, what are you talking about?
Em Schulz: It's a sign that you're a witch. So basically, if you are not 100% perfect to their beauty standards, you're a witch. Are we surprised?
Christine Schiefer: And even if you are, they'll... A little boy will scratch you and leave a scar and now you are a fucking witch. So you can't win.
Em Schulz: Exactly. You could be perfect and then guess what, that must be witchcraft because nobody's perfect.
Christine Schiefer: That's true too. Like, "Oh, she must be hiding them."
Em Schulz: Fucking crazy.
Christine Schiefer: You think if you were a witch, you could like get rid of your third nipple or like your skin tag or your cellulite?
Em Schulz: Right. Exactly. If I had the magic to make myself perfect, I would!
Christine Schiefer: Like if I knew that would be... Yeah. If that would be a problem and I knew like, oh, they're gonna find, uh, this scar and say I'm a witch, I can't, I just hex that away. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Like, didn't, didn't nobody even think like, if there was a witch around here, they would hex all of us to not let us figure that out?
Christine Schiefer: That's, that gets me every time. I'm like, why do you feel like you... If it were witchcraft, that you'd be able to overpower her? Like it doesn't make sense.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Why would you be able to outsmart a magical being?
Christine Schiefer: Yes! 'Cause they're men, I guess, and they just...
Em Schulz: Men are literally so fucking stupid. I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: So fucking stupid.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. Just a theory.
Em Schulz: Not all men.
Christine Schiefer: Just a theory.
Em Schulz: Not all men. Just all the ones that burned women and also stood along and let men burn women. But whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, sick, sick.
Em Schulz: You know who wasn't? That goddamn magistrate who defended Margaret Roper at the beginning of this.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He's like, "Wait a minute, if she were a witch... "
Em Schulz: Fine. You're right. Not all men. Just one from 1562, apparently. Um, okay. So...
Christine Schiefer: All men except that magistrate guy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. May he rest in peace.
Christine Schiefer: R.I.P.
Em Schulz: So she was accused of witchcraft because, you know...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause why not.
Em Schulz: I don't know, she had a birthmark. And then she was forced to confess and claimed to have cursed Thomas in the woods after he rudely called her a witch.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. 'Cause she was tortured into it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I'm assuming. Okay.
Em Schulz: And Alice was sentenced to be executed, of course...
Christine Schiefer: Of course.
Em Schulz: But she died in prison first. So was that better or worse than what we were expecting? Uh...
Christine Schiefer: Pffft.
Em Schulz: Thomas' family believes that John Darrell's, uh, guidance was instrumental in exercising not just one demon from Thomas, but two. So...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And apparently the names of these demons were Glass, Glassup, Glassup and Radalphus, which like...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry.
Em Schulz: Where did those names come from?
Christine Schiefer: That's my favorite demon ever, Radalphus.
Em Schulz: Radalphus... Imagine the squishable.
Christine Schiefer: Radalphus the red-nosed demon.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly.
Christine Schiefer: I am imagining the squishable and I'm gonna get it. Squishmallow.
Em Schulz: Would it be uh, a mallard or like a Maryland blue crab like...
Christine Schiefer: It'd be a fucking demon. Maryland blue crab. [laughter] What? That's so random.
Em Schulz: Okay, squishable, if you're listening, we would like Radalphus the Maryland Blue Crab, please.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh God, help me.
Em Schulz: So it's, "Thank God to, for, for John Darrell," says Thomas' family because they helped relinquish Thomas from Glassup and Radalphus. [laughter] But the Darling family loudly credits John, uh, as Thomas' savior and, uh, this helps him become much more of a renowned exorcist.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, God.
Em Schulz: Later, John was asked to help exorcise seven other people. And by the way, all seven of these people were possessed at the exact same time, apparently.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. How convenient.
Em Schulz: They all farted in the woods. It was crazy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: If seven people fart in the woods, can you hear it? What's that... [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know if they could all hear it, but they're all possessed now. So...
Christine Schiefer: You're all smelling it though.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Exact... What if it was just one that was... It was powerful enough, it's smelled like seven people, and now everyone's afraid to like figure out who it was, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Point at the right... The actual culprit. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So he exorcises all seven of these people and apparently successfully saves six of them.
Christine Schiefer: He's a busy man.
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: But he, he couldn't save 30-year-old Jane, uh, because she was a Catholic. You know how that is.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, shit.
Em Schulz: You know how that is.
Christine Schiefer: Trigger warning, Em.
Em Schulz: But, uh, by this time, John Darrell has risen to absolute fame because he's had a near success rate, unless you're a dirty Catholic, apparently.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter]
Em Schulz: And in 1597, the town council reaches out to him to help with another guy, and this guy's name is William Somers. So John did not get involved at first with William Somers. He instead sent instructions to other ministers to handle it. But I guess they didn't know how to make William fast and pray quite like John could. So...
Christine Schiefer: Nobody could. Nobody can. He's the number one.
Em Schulz: Nobody could. Nobody could tell him, "Don't eat" like John could.
Christine Schiefer: That's true. I, I always say that about him.
Em Schulz: So then the mayor calls John and begs for help. And he's like, "You gotta get in there. Nobody knows how to do this like you can." So William's possession was like one of the most exciting things to come out of this town in a while. And crowds were literally gathering at his house and looking into his windows to watch him have like full suffering events.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God! He's probably having like a legitimate medical event, like a seizure, and they were like, "Ahh."
Em Schulz: Yeah. And they're all just like fighting to have like the best seat by the window to like watch him...
Christine Schiefer: It's disturbing.
Em Schulz: People really just had to be so goddamned bored in the 1500s.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I mean like, like just accuse people of witchcraft just to see what will happen, kill them for fun, watch them have seizures and not actually call a doctor.
Christine Schiefer: Like spend many, many, many months perfecting like some ridiculous torture implement shaped like a wheel with like spokes. I mean, the amount of time they had on their hands to come up with this shit, like deeply disturbing.
Em Schulz: The crowds were... I mean, they were truly gathering, which is why I think the mayor was like, "You need to fix this, John Darrell,...
Christine Schiefer: Help!
Em Schulz: Because it's becoming a frenzy over here." So, uh, John personally oversaw William's fasting and prayer until the fits ceased, which like I said, no one can do it like him. [chuckle] And John first declared that he was cured, but it came with some bad news.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: His fits and his possession, the cure was not permanent and they would be back.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Um, and even worse news, William Somers' possession was not caused by anything he had done, but by the sinful nature of the townspeople.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, it's all their fucking fault. All these fucking audience members are now in trouble. Uh-oh!
Em Schulz: And because of this, uh, William would be possessed by the devil again in the near future unless the townspeople change their ways. What a manipulative way to...
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: Prophesize to...
Christine Schiefer: It's kind of genius.
Em Schulz: To, to an entire town. It's like, you, you're all at fault for this guy being possessed.
Christine Schiefer: It's like kind of genius. And I feel like saying also like, oh, uh, "It's not a permanent fix" is also genius, you know. He's like building in future work for himself. He's like, "Uh, I'll be back when it, when I need another paycheck, I guess."
Em Schulz: Exactly. And, uh, pretty much he says, "It's all your fault. Even if like you're all going to church all the time, it's your fault." And he, I guess because he was waiting for the fits to come back, which I wonder if like he had spoken to a doctor recently and he was like, "Oh, when people have seizures, like maybe... Like... Or I don't know if the seizures are a condition... "
Christine Schiefer: I was wondering that same thing, like maybe he knew it would like be a recurrent thing, like a kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Which makes it even sicker that like he knew that this could be a medical condition and instead of telling a doctor, he was like, "I'm just gonna wait for the next time he has an episode and I'll... "
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. I had that same exact thought. Yeah.
Em Schulz: So that, I guess assuming that's what's going on here, um, he knew that he'd have to be back, and so he got a job in town waiting around for William Somers to have another episode. He gets a job as a preacher in town, but none of the, like residents want to go to his church because he just blamed all of them for being...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Wait a second. No shit. Like if you...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I wonder if he thought it was gonna go the other way though, of like, "I can lead you to Christ and I can lead you away from being dirty sinners," you know?
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "But I... " Like, he's gonna create the problem and then be like, "But I'm the... And I'm the only one who can solve it." This guy...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He has a business mindset.
Em Schulz: Classic.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Classic businessman. Classic narcissist.
Christine Schiefer: Classic narcissist for sure.
Em Schulz: Um, so the townspeople are like not totally stoked that he's in town. However, William was possessed again, just like John predicted and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: He had an episode. Um, but now people are not convinced, I think because there was already that seed of doubt after like being told that it was their fault that this...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Like, I mean, even townspeople who like kind don't even, didn't even know this guy, it was their fault?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Whatever. So they were all kind of on the skeptical side now. And when William started having fits again, they all kind of started noticing things. Like, the main one was that William... His episodes had bathroom breaks. Um, basically, Thomas never soiled himself in the middle of his fits, which was usually a symptom of a possessed person where like they couldn't control themselves.
Christine Schiefer: So he's like, "Hang on, I gotta pee real quick." And...
Em Schulz: So he would like, have like episodes and then all of a sudden just like shift personality or shift behavior so he could get up and walk to the bathroom, go to the bathroom, come back, and then continue his fits.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my goodness.
Em Schulz: Which like, how did we not notice this before?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Nobody noticed that he had to pee half the time. I... This is very weird.
Em Schulz: It... I feel like that's the power of... I don't know what the, the, what the right word is, but it's interesting when you wanna believe something so bad, you won't notice obvious things like that until all of a sudden you're woken up a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But, um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. They just apparently never noticed before.
Christine Schiefer: I guess people like to... People see what they wanna see, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. And they also did the, like the classic pins in your hands and feet when you're unconscious to see if you respond test. And...
Christine Schiefer: Classic. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: The classics. And Thomas kept reacting. So he...
Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh.
Em Schulz: Obvious... Like, you're not supposed to feel it if you're truly possessed...
Christine Schiefer: Right
Em Schulz: And he was responding, like he could feel it. And William accused various local women of witchcraft and being the cause of all of this. I wonder if he went from like the whole town to like, "Just the women."
Christine Schiefer: Just the women.
Em Schulz: "We all hate them. We just hate them women, right?"
Christine Schiefer: "We still need men in my, my congregation. I need someone in my congregation."
Em Schulz: Yeah. "But if we blame the women, that'd be easy 'cause we're already blaming women for everything. Right?"
Christine Schiefer: Easy.
Em Schulz: So he tried to blame the women, but none of those accusations stuck either. So I wonder if all the, the husbands were like, "Uh-uh-uh, I don't think so." [laughter] And William ultimately confessed, uh, that he faked his entire possession and it was because he was following John's instructions.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was like, for what... A-ha. Ding, ding, ding.
Em Schulz: Interesting, interesting.
Christine Schiefer: That motherfucker.
Em Schulz: I mean, they did get like alone personal time where John was the only one in the room telling him what to do, you know. So, um, I wonder if John like just wanted to make a name for himself in another town after the last town he went to. I don't know what the deal was, but apparently they were in cahoots with each other.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So he found uh, a, somebody willing to do his bidding in this new town. Okay.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. And people called on the archbishop of Canterbury of Canterbury Tales...
Christine Schiefer: Hey, famously, famously.
Em Schulz: To launch an investigation on John because they're like, "This is horseshit."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, how would they say that in old English, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: This is horse... Thither is, thither is horse shit.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, they was...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you for, thank you for asking.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. So they launched an investigation on him and a chaplain named Samuel Harsnett was put on the case. And he hated household exorcisms. He like did not trust them. So he's in charge of investigating John, which is...
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: Loving this.
Christine Schiefer: Loving it.
Em Schulz: And Samuel very quickly notices that all of John's cases have pretty much been children because they were easily impressionable and he could just say whatever he wanted and control them and...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. So sick.
Em Schulz: The power of like authority and, you know, so...
Christine Schiefer: Like, so sick.
Em Schulz: So just a, just a manipulative piece of shit that wanted his name out there and he used kids to do it. He, uh, it was declared all fraud. John goes to prison, but they even... They offer him a condition where they say, "We will release you if you don't meddle anymore with like possessed people or like the people you think are possessed."
Christine Schiefer: That seems like an easy fucking deal to take, right? Like, okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. And, and yet he full on refused and he stated...
Christine Schiefer: No! He's such an idiot.
Em Schulz: His supporters, however, helped get him released and tried to help clear his name and maybe for like a second they were able to do that. But in 1599, Samuel Harsnett, the chaplain who was like investigating him...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He publishes this like treaty that, um, I don't know if it's a, like a treaty, like a law treaty, I think it's more like just like his own book.
Christine Schiefer: Just like a announcement? Like a...
Em Schulz: I don't... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Press release?
Em Schulz: Uh, it feels more like a book given the title. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: It... So basically he publishes this thing, unveiling the whole investigation. And the reason I say I hope it's a book is because you know how older books loved a long title.
Christine Schiefer: Which is so wild. They had to like handwrite it. Like why... Wouldn't you make it as short as fucking possible? Like it's just what I, I can't... Like, even with voice to text, I try to keep things short and someone's writing... A robot's writing for me. But like back then, I just don't understand. But okay, I guess they like to hear themselves talk.
Em Schulz: They certain... Would you like to know the title?
Christine Schiefer: I would love to.
Em Schulz: Would you like, would you like to guess how many words are in this title?
Christine Schiefer: Seven.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'll start the tally as you go.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: This is the title of Samuel Harsnett's personal publication. Ready?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: "A Discovery of the Fraudulent Practices of John Darrell, Bachelor of Arts, in his Proceedings Concerning the, the Pretended Possession and Dispossession of William Somers of Nottingham, of Thomas Darling, the Boy of Burton in Caldwell, and of Katharine Wright at Mansfield in Whittington, and of His Dealings with One Mary Cooper at Nottingham, Detecting in Some Sort the Deceitful Trade in these Latter Days of Casting Out Devils".
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna [laughter] round up to 80 'cause I got halfway there. I got to 40, and then I was like, "I'm never gonna remember what number I'm on." I mean, holy shit, I've never heard anything like it.
Em Schulz: And not only like, that you have to write that with your hand, but also with like a quill, like, like there's no...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, with like ink.
Em Schulz: Every other letter, you have to get more ink. That's horseshit.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what a pain. And then you spell one word wrong, you spell like Caldwell wrong and you're like, "Motherfucker."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I love that... He had the... Like A Discovery of the Fraudulent Practices of John Darrell, Bachelor of Arts". Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, well, like... Like, why? I guess 'cause it makes it seem more important. I don't know.
Em Schulz: You couldn't even write BA? Like, come on.
Christine Schiefer: BA. Right. Even we do that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh man, it was just...
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy. I was really trying too, but I, I swear I got to 40 and was like, "This is not gonna happen for me."
Em Schulz: The worst part is this... The title's so damn long. I don't even know if I understood what it was about. Like it was...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, certainly not.
Em Schulz: I mean, I get it, like if I sit here and read it, but just talking out loud about it, it was not processing 'cause that was too damn long.
Christine Schiefer: No. I was trying to...
Em Schulz: That was a whole quote.
Christine Schiefer: It's not happening. No.
Em Schulz: So, uh, that was in 1599. Samuel Harsnett puts that out about John Dar uh, John Darrell.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And a year later, John claps back.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter] okay, okay. How many, how many words?
Em Schulz: About the same. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He probably did one more, just to fuck with him. Like 81 words. Take that. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So this is the title of his publication: "A Detection of That Sinful, Shameful, Lying and Ridiculous Discourse of Samuel Harsnett Entitled, 'A Discovery of the Fraudulent Practices of John Darrell' Wherein is Manifestly and Apparently Shooed in the Eyes of the World, Not Only the Unlikelihood, But the Flat Impossibility of the Pretended Counterfeiting of William Somers, Thomas Darling, Katharine Wright and Mary Cooper Together With Other Seven in Lancaster and the Supposed Teaching of Them By the Said John Darrell".
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I haven't even tried to count that one. This is...
Em Schulz: But who would?
Christine Schiefer: Crazy. So now they're like having a feud. Okay.
Em Schulz: Like, like all you have to do is like, whatever a reporter was back then, like, just put that sentence out and like it tells you enough about the, the publication without you ever having to have actually published anything.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I would say so.
Em Schulz: Like they could have both just said, "I'm putting out a publication and it's about this," and then just left the title.
Christine Schiefer: Like, and then we all get it.
Em Schulz: I feel like after reading that sentence, I'm like, "I don't need to read the book. I already get it."
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: We get it. We know this is a pissing contest. Whatever.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So then he publishes a second book and it's called "A True Narration of the Strange and Grievous Vexation By the Devil of Seven Persons in Lancaster and William Somers of Nottingham". So shorter. But, um...
Christine Schiefer: These are exhausting.
Em Schulz: So despite his attempts to justify all of his actions in these two pieces of literature, he was still, like his reputation was ruined and he moved out of England. Um, but when he moved out of England, because remember, when he left prison, he, he wasn't going to leave if that meant he couldn't keep meddling.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So he moved away from England and kept getting into trouble, um, for... And he got caught for libel and false accusations again. And, um, ultimately, he has gone down in history as the most famous fraudulent exorcist in England.
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit.
Em Schulz: That's John Darrell.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it, it's a nice redemption arc for witches, right? Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: At least I feel like a little bit vindicated about it.
Em Schulz: Someone was trying at some point, even if it didn't last very long.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like somebody had a little bit of sense, you know, for once,...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Which is, uh, a rarity in your witchcraft stories.
Em Schulz: Love it.
Christine Schiefer: What a tale, Em. Um, okay. Well, I guess, I guess it's my turn, isn't it? Uh...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So I am gonna tell you a story today. Let me pull this up... It is a fucked up one. What else is new? Um, and it's one where... Okay. So it takes place in Japan. So I feel like it might need... You don't need gargoyles, but I feel like you need to tell me if you're like, "Wait, explain something."
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You know.
Em Schulz: Okay. I... Maybe I should bring them out anyway.
Christine Schiefer: You're blurry.
Em Schulz: Oh, hang on. Do you like this? Is that helping?
Christine Schiefer: I love reading your palm.
Em Schulz: Okay. For people who can read palms, what does this mean?
Christine Schiefer: I think we've done this before and nobody fucking responded. Or maybe they did.
Em Schulz: Why is my camera being that way? Hello? It'll pop back. It'll come back.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. I trust...
Em Schulz: Okay, there you go.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, you just gotta compliment it.
Em Schulz: Uh, [laughter] uh, I, I'll bring the gargoyles out just in case.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, just in case. Alright. So this is the story of Lucie Blackman. And I'll mention the documentary at the end. It's on Netflix. Um, and it, it was really good and also troubling to watch in the middle of the night. So just be forewarned.
Em Schulz: Oh, in the middle of the night. Great. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So, 21-year-old Lucie Blackman, she was the eldest of three children born to Tim Blackman and Jane Steare in England. So we're, we're in England, I don't know what town, but we're in England.
Em Schulz: If it was in Nottinghamshire, I'd think run away.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Maybe it was. Maybe it was. When she was born, her father Tim said it transformed his life um, you know, this is just a classic, uh, she had an energy that made people orbit her. She drew people in. She was like the, the light in people's lives.
Em Schulz: Light up the room.
Christine Schiefer: Light up the room.
Em Schulz: Light up the room.
Christine Schiefer: She was the sort of person who had a kind word for everyone. She was fiercely independent, adventurous, and dreamed of traveling the world. So when she grew up, she became a flight attendant for British Airways. She was like, "This would be a great way to travel." And...
Em Schulz: Good for her.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I was like, that's a kickass idea. And it was... She was able to make her dreams come true. So in 2000, when Lucie was 21 years old, she decided to take a gap year and travel to Japan to live with her friend, Louise Phillips. And she had always been interested in Japanese culture and was drawn to the country, so she jumped at the chance to experience it herself. Now, Lucie did not have a work visa, so she did what many young women like her did and started working as a hostess.
Christine Schiefer: Um, hostessing is not the same in this context in Japan as it is in the US. So I'll give a little bit of uh, context here. She worked at a club called Casablanca in Roppongi, which is a part of Tokyo known at the time for, for its wealth and like excess lavish lifestyle. Business people, especially in finance, would come to Tokyo from all over the world and many of them would go to Roppongi clubs to unwind, and they would spend wild amounts of money on drinks, on entertainment, et cetera. And a former hostess named Susie, who also worked at Casablanca and, and knew Lucie, uh, described it as a small unremarkable hostess club. And there's not really the equivalent in the west for what a hostess is, but it's pretty normal in Tokyo. Essentially, a hostess's job is to sit with visitors at the club, talk to them, make them feel welcome, and encourage them to spend more money on like top shelf liquor or, you know, buy more food, buy more drinks. Like there's nothing inherently sexual about it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It, it reminds me of like what an escort is like purely by definition of like, uh, sort of being your companion.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Does that make sense?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. So that is what she did. And again, like this is not inherently a sexual thing or like uh, a sketchy thing. It's just a normal cultural part of being in this part of Japan. So in 2000, many independent women who loved traveling were drawn to a job like this as a hostess uh, because you could meet so many different people, you could make really good money. Um, and also it was fun to just like sit and talk with all these different people from all over the world. And you can make friends with the other hostesses who are usually in a similar, uh, situation like Lucie, who didn't have a work visa. So Susie knew hostesses who could make $50 an hour and you'd also make bonuses if patrons bought like expensive alcohol and, you know, uh, upgraded to the top shelf stuff. So this was a pretty good gig. Like you made pretty good cash doing it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It feels swanky.
Christine Schiefer: It does. Yeah. I think she only did it like three days a week and was able to make, you know...
Em Schulz: Okay, girl. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Living off that. I know. I was very impressed. So hostesses were also, this is what, uh, Susie, who was interviewed in the documentary and also worked with Lucie, described as the dodgiest part of the job, is that hostesses were sometimes encouraged to meet with club patrons outside of the club for dinner dates.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And that's kind of a no-no like on the surface because that's not what this job is. But the lines are getting blurry, right? So they basically had you meet with club patrons for dinner dates, and then they would eat together and then go to the club together. And Susie described it as the most dodgy part of the job, but she also said she never felt personally in danger.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Um, she said it could really be a simple, innocent job if you wanted it to be. So, that is where Lucie was working. Unfortunately, on July 1st, 2000, Lucie went to her job as usual, but she never returned. Just vanished.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: On July 2nd, a man, a random man called her friend Louise, that she was, you know, there to live with, and told Louise that Lucie had "Joined a cult and would never return, bye."
Em Schulz: Oh, what? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Wow. Sharp turn.
Christine Schiefer: Sharp turn. And uh, Louise was like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" But Lucie had not come home, so she was like, "Well, I have to call her family." So she calls Lucie's family back in England and Tim, her father, remembers asking, "How do you know she's gone missing?" And Tim said, "I don't know. Lucie's very skeptical. Uh, she's a good head on her shoulders. Like I can't imagine she just like ran off and joined a cult without talking to me... "
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "Or talking to her family. It just doesn't make sense." But her friends are like, "We have not seen her. She's not going to work. She's not answering the phone." So he knows something is wrong. Not, not necessarily that she's in a cult, but that...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: She's at least missing.
Em Schulz: That's fair. But I do know like if someone called me that I didn't know and they said, "Oh, Christine just joined a cult and left," first of all, I would be a little worried. 'Cause I'd be like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: What did they bribe her with?
Christine Schiefer: I don't hope so.
Em Schulz: What did they bribe her with that got her into that cult?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But at the same time, I, I'd be like, if a person I don't know said this, I... Maybe it's because of our particular job, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I would immediately assume that person is the criminal and is like trying to like very badly...
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: Cover up for themselves.
Christine Schiefer: Totally. Like... And what cult like calls you to be like, "Just checking in. You'll never see her again. Bye."
Em Schulz: And what cult calls themselves a cult? Like what... Like...
Christine Schiefer: True!
Em Schulz: What cult would be like, "By the way, we're the cult. Um... "
Christine Schiefer: Em...
Em Schulz: "Lucie has joined us."
Christine Schiefer: That is the best point that I've heard so far. Like, who calls themselves a... What cult admits to being a cult outright? [laughter] That's a great point, Em. I've not even thought of that.
Em Schulz: So stupid.
Christine Schiefer: So stupid.
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: So you're onto it. Really stupid. So Tim is immediately concerned that his daughter is missing. Uh, and once this has gone reported, the news of her disappearance didn't really take off in Japan the way it might've taken off as like a big headline story in the west. Um, it mainly spread among the foreign community, especially among women from western countries. 'Cause of course, they're hearing like, someone just like you has vanished, you know. So police were pretty hesitant at first to consider foul play. Um, it, it was kind of, uh, a sticky situation because people without work visas would sometimes skip town, you know, quietly to avoid getting deported.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so they were like, "Well, you know, she didn't have a work visa. She might've tried to avoid trouble by skipping town." A crime reporter from the US was assigned to Lucie's case because it involved a foreign woman. And he, even he at first thought, "Oh, she's probably just gone on a trip or left town without telling anyone."
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So police spoke to Tim, Lucie's dad, to get a grasp on who Lucie was, her personality and her habits. And it became pretty clear to them like, this is not the type of person who's just bopping around without telling anybody. Like she would've told her family if she was leaving the country. So Lucie's dad, Tim, immediately flew to Japan and he took with him Lucie's younger sister, his other daughter Sophie. So that is when the media starts to pick up the case. 'Cause now her family is in Tokyo, like pushing...
Em Schulz: Looking for her.
Christine Schiefer: For coverage and looking for her. As soon as they step off the plane, Tim is bombarded with cameras and microphones. He's very calm and collected. He's, he's very, um, good about being on camera. And he tells them that the last time he spoke with Lucie, she said Tokyo was a nice city and she was having a good time. Sort of like the most vague like non-answer, like... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. "Everything's okay. The last I heard, everything was okay."
Christine Schiefer: Everything's fine. Right, exactly. "She loves this wonderful place you call home. Okay, bye." Uh, and looking back, Tim said like, "Some people thought I just loved being in the limelight." And he's like... Which I'm like, fuck you to whoever says that, okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. But...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He said in that position, the position he was in, a person doesn't worry about the cameras or stage fright. You just get on with it because you're trying to find your child. Like you'll get in front of any camera if you think it's gonna help.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So Tim met with the police to ask questions about the investigation and uh, he asked if they had checked security footage throughout the city. And CCTV at this point was pretty big in the UK, but definitely not in Japan. And I think my favorite part about this section, like this conversation he had with police, is that he said like, "Oh, have you, uh, reviewed the security footage?" and they're like, "We don't have security footage. That's a privacy violation." And he goes, "We, back in London, have security camera on every street corner and they're all made in Japan, like all these cameras." Like, think about it.
Em Schulz: Wait, that's such a good point.
Christine Schiefer: I know! I was like, wait a second. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Way fascinating.
Christine Schiefer: And he said like, "They're all made in Japan, but you guys don't use them?" And they're like, "Nope." So, you know, I guess they just export 'em to us.
Em Schulz: That's a fun fact. I don't think I would've even put that together.
Christine Schiefer: It never occurred to me. And like, you know, it's been almost 25 years since then, so I... Things probably have changed. But at the time they were like, "Oh no, we don't do that." So of course, this is like a letdown to Tim. Um, and he said there were pretty immediately cultural differences. The police said this too. Like Japan is known as being a very, at least like the trope or like the, the stereotype is that they're very polite, very straight-laced, very, um, just, just kind and, uh, gentle people like as far as...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Manners go. And you know, this guy, his daughter's missing, he's coming in, he's kind of brash, he's like...
Em Schulz: He's frantic. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He's frantic, he's emotional and he's like, there was immediately like a cultural clash, but they were always really polite to him. Um, but a man did approach him and warn Tim like, "Listen, it's gonna be really hard to get a thorough investigation. Lucie's not a Japanese citizen. The police are probably not pursuing her case very strongly." And so Tim was like, "You know what, I don't care anymore. I have to get the media's attention uh, like I would back home, or like I would in the States."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So he does a press conference. He does this in Tokyo and he's trying to raise awareness of Lucie's case to the public. And this was like a hugely attended press conference. Uh, Lucie's sister Sophie talked to the press, asking people to step up with any information they had that could bring her sister home. And 30,000 missing posters went up around Tokyo.
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: Police and Tim walked around with flyers, canvassing passersby in the street for information. Um, they are going like grassroots now 'cause he's not convinced the police are gonna take this seriously.
Em Schulz: Good for him. Damn.
Christine Schiefer: I know. He is like hardcore. So back in the UK, the media is all over this case. Uh, British media began running speculative headlines and like, I know this is a stereotype I have, but I feel like when you hear like British tabloid, you just think of the most outrageous speculation and theories and... That's at least how my mind works, [laughter] just think of those tabloids.
Em Schulz: I feel like I... When I think of, um, British tabloids, again, this is another stereotype is that I feel like I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Hear it in like old English, which I know is not accurate...
Christine Schiefer: What? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I hear it like an, I hear it like an old time-y tabloid.
Christine Schiefer: Hither and thither.
Em Schulz: Hither and thither. And I don't know why.
Christine Schiefer: Like, "Extra, extra, read all about it." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. I don't know why. I wonder if it's because I just know that England's older than the US or something.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I have no idea why.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe you just think they're classier than us. I think of the trashy shit, like the really trashy, upsetting headlines they put out about like women's looks and weight and the royals. Like, there's just some fucked up stuff they've, I've seen then.
Em Schulz: That's interesting. 'Cause I see it, I, I think of them as like overly like traditional posh, like old English.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Like...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: I mean...
Em Schulz: Different tropes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess so. The... I mean, true point. They are different tropes. Um, so essentially, these tabloids begin running these crazy headlines, um, saying like, "Oh, Lucie was trafficked in a sex ring because she's a white woman and they prize white women." Like just very stereotypical racist shit, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: About why she disappeared in Japan, um, saying like, "Oh, she was kidnapped by a Japanese religious cult." Like they're just making shit up and people are eating it up.
Em Schulz: At least people's eyes are on it. I don't know if it's good or bad.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Unfortunately, like it's not helpful back in the UK 'cause like they want people in Japan to pay attention, [chuckle] but not... But people in the UK are just eating it up like gossip, you know.
Em Schulz: Right, right.
Christine Schiefer: So it, it's, uh, it's a little iffy. Um, but in the end, maybe you're right, like maybe it was good that the media at least took it so far because the police in Tokyo did launch a huge investigation and there were now roughly 100 personnel involved, um, which is far larger than any case for a missing Japanese citizen would usually receive. So I don't know if that was a result of the media, if it was because she was white. I don't know what caused it, but it did take off.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So investigators honed in on Roppongi where the Casablanca Club was located, but they just kept like not finding any solid leads. And Tim was getting increasingly frustrated, uh, with the police who were giving him absolutely zero updates. Like, they would just say, "Oh, we'll let you know." And he's like, "I need something. Like, I need anything. You need to tell me something."
Em Schulz: I wouldn't, I wouldn't even be able to... I mean, no, no case would I be able to handle like wondering about someone I love, but to just be, keep, to keep getting hit with the, "We'll let you know, we'll let you know" when you're...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh.
Em Schulz: Just like, you can't sleep. You can't eat. You can't think.
Christine Schiefer: That's hard enough when you're like... Exactly. When you're waiting on like a job or like a, I don't know what, like a...
Em Schulz: Like, "We'll let you know if the person you love the most in this world is alive or not. We'll let you know."
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Eventually.
Em Schulz: Like what? Hurry up. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And, and I like, it's... I know. And it must be so hard because there's also that back and forth where like the police were like, "Well, we have to follow our procedures," but also there's this guy being like frazzled beyond anyone's wildest imagination trying to figure out, "Where's my fucking daughter?"
Em Schulz: Also with, with the type of, with the type of stories you've told though, I would even... If I ever had to go through this in my life though, I would now be paranoid that like, what if they're not following procedures and they just don't, like they just don't care Like what if they just don't care?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's... I feel like that is such... Especially if they're not telling you anything, then you're like, well, maybe they don't care. Maybe they just don't give a shit. It's...
Em Schulz: And maybe they totally care, but I'll still read it as like, if...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "If you cared, you'd be working harder and then I'd have answers faster," which is like...
Christine Schiefer: You'd have answers. It's like a lose-lose situation.
Em Schulz: The desperation of it all.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And, and part of the reason actually that they withheld information from him is because he was constantly on TV.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: And he was trying to get this case and they were so worried that he would like slip up and say something sensitive, like something that investigators didn't want leaked, you know? And so they were also trying to tread carefully being like, "We don't wanna tell you everything 'cause you're gonna... We don't want you to blast it out to the media, you know." So there's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Kind of a push and pull there. Um, but now two weeks have gone by since her disappearance, Tim is still in Japan, and he feels the attention on Lucie slipping away. So he keeps making these TV appearances. Um, he's trying desperately to get, uh... To keep it in the headlines. So while visiting Japan, Tony Blair, the UK Prime Minister at the time, ended up stopping in Tokyo to do a press conference and speak to police about Lucie's case. And he actually even met with the Japanese prime minister who promised that they would catch Lucie's abductor. And this was like blasted out to the media. But the police were like, "You can't promise that. Like, we don't... Like... " [laughter] So I imagine they're fucking frustrated too. 'Cause like the prime minister's like, "We'll catch him," and the police were like, "What do you mean we? Like, you're not doing jack shit, you know. It's like you're making promises that we can't necessarily keep."
Em Schulz: For the, for the sensationalism of it though. It's like, "Oh, okay, now we're getting aggressive. Okay." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's true. And also it did push them into action because they were like, there was so much fucking pressure from the media, you know, and from now the prime minister who's now promised Tony Blair...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Like, "We're on it," you know. So there's just a lot of, uh, chaotic energy happening around this case. So the detectives like, just to give you an example of how they were feeling, one of them said, "It was easy for him to say that, but that didn't mean it was easy for us to do." 'Cause I feel like...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: It's a tough thing to just throw that out there and then like go home and let the police handle. It's not really fair. So with the prime minister and the whole world now like putting pressure on them, new detectives are assigned to the case. And one officer referred to these detectives as soft shell turtles, because once they bite a lead, they never let go, which is apparently something soft shell turtles do. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I've never... Is it an insult? Is it a compliment? Is it a...
Christine Schiefer: That's the best part.
Em Schulz: It's a fun fact?
Christine Schiefer: Nobody knows. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I've never... Soft shell... That's like me talking about that stupid fucking Maryland blue crab. I feel like we're, we're covering a lot of...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, you're right.
Em Schulz: A lot of animals today. A lot of vague animals. Soft shell turtle.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. We're getting some weird ideas for squishable, you know, Squishmallow. Um, so yeah, they, they basically said like, I think it was meant almost as an insult, but like, as like a polite insult, which, uh, again, this is striking me as the very Japanese trope of like, "Yeah, well this is how you're... You're acting like a turtle."
Em Schulz: "You remind me of this animal." Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "So, take that."
Em Schulz: A turtle is like the... A turtle's like the nicest thing to be, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Compared to in an angry state.
Christine Schiefer: I would say, I would be like, "Oh, thank you." I would be taken aback. I'd be like, "Oh, wow." Um, so the new action team decided to start from square one. They spent nights pouring over past investigation notes to see if anything had been missed or, or skipped over or, you know, if they could just basically like how people nowadays go over cold cases, like just going through all the old notes of the investigators from before. And that is when they notice a note in here. And it was actually... They had talked to a club manager who said one of his hostesses had been drugged and possibly raped by a client.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently, uh, this club manager described this to police saying, "Yeah, apparently this, this guy, he invited one of my, uh, hostesses on a drive to the seaside and she woke up hours later with a pounding headache and had no memory of the day. Um, and she thought she was drugged." But the original detectives got this information, but then were like, "I don't know. This manager seems unreliable." So they just like...
Em Schulz: Wha- Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Got rid of it, like just put it aside.
Em Schulz: Oh, man.
Christine Schiefer: And the new detectives were like, "What the fuck? Like this is a big lead. We're gonna follow up... "
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "With this club manager." So they do, and they find out that many hostesses had the exact same fucking story,...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: But they hadn't reported this to police because a lot of them didn't have visas or, you know, they were the ones who were gonna get arrested or in trouble. I mean, this is like... We've seen this...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Time and time again in the US too. Uh, and they didn't wanna be deported, especially if they didn't have anywhere else to go. And so with more encouragement, several hostesses bravely came forward and agreed to go on record with their experiences, which must have been...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Just very, very traumatizing. And they all told the same fucking story that this man with an expensive car invited them to dinner by the ocean and they were all drugged and they didn't know what happened.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Wow. So the... All the exact same story.
Christine Schiefer: Exact same story. So now police realize there has been a predator in Roppongi for years targeting women in vulnerable legal positions who he knew couldn't make a report or, or would be uncomfortable doing so.
Em Schulz: Interesting. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So at this point, Lucie has been missing for 52 fucking days. And Tim is like...
Em Schulz: [gasp] Days? Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Days. Yes.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: 52 days. And he's beginning to feel so powerless. He, he's like, "I don't know how to keep this in the media." So what he does is he does another press release and he offers 1.5 million yen, which is about $10,000, uh...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Reward for information leading to Lucie. So, you know, stories are picking up again. And, uh, 10 more days go by, and it's about this time, Lucie's mom, Jane, and Lucie's brother, Rupert, publicly released, I think it was 1200 balloons to, into the sky to celebrate Lucie's 22nd birthday.
Em Schulz: Oh. Oh my God, that's so sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's just so fucking sad. And every time I heard it, I was like, that is so young. Like 22 is so little.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just horrifying. So she said she wanted them to be a message to Lucie, wherever she is. We haven't forgotten her. Um, but more and more weeks go by before another major break comes through in the case. An Australian woman named Jessie reaches out to police and says she has the name and phone number of this fucking suspect.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Wow. Okay. That's a pretty... That's some red hot info.
Christine Schiefer: Red hot info. She said, "I too was his victim. And I had written his name down and his phone number down in a notebook. And this notebook is back at home in Australia." So police called her dad and are like, "FedEx that shit right now." So they like, overnight, I'm assuming, express shipped, this journal to Tokyo Police from Australia and they are able to open it up and look at where she wrote the name and phone number. And apparently, she had been so angry about this incident, obviously, that she had like scribbled out the name and phone number, but they were able to hold it up like to a window to the light and make out...
Em Schulz: Oh, thank God.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I know. 'Cause that would've been so devastating.
Em Schulz: I was, I was really holding it in. I was like, "Please, please, please." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That would be such a Christine move of me like, "We overnighted it, we got the information. Just kidding." No.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's ripped out, out of anger.
Christine Schiefer: Right out. So, thankfully they were able to still read it. Uh, and his name on the paper was Yuji Honda, which they believed was an alias, but the phone number, they looked that up and it was still active and registered to the same person. So they pull these phone records and they find out that one of the numbers this phone number had called was Lucie.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: So they're like, "This must be the same fucking guy."
Em Schulz: Ding ding ding.
Christine Schiefer: "She at least knew this guy." So they used the phone to triangulate his location, and obviously they didn't have Find My Phone back in 2000 um, but they were able to use like cell phone towers like we've seen in those...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Crime shows, uh, to pinpoint where he would be. And they found out that he most likely lived in a place called Akasaka Tower, which was an expensive apartment building in Tokyo where very wealthy people lived. It was known for being very shi-shi, as Em would say.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So the apartment manager said, "Oh, well, [chuckle] there's two rooms on the sixth floor being rented by this weird guy." And they're like, "Okay, well that sounds... "
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: "Right down our alley. Let's look into him."
Em Schulz: He's like, "How convenient. We're looking for a weird guy." So...
Christine Schiefer: A weird guy. Yes, precisely. So this apartment manager said, yeah, he works for a business called P-Ohira and they had never heard of it. And then the manager said, "Oh, by the way, he has a bunch of fancy cars." So...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: They go down to the garage and take a look at like... It's all like Porsches, Lamborghinis, Mercedes. And they're looking at all these cars, and apparently, the cars he owned were matched up exactly to all the ones the victims had said he drove them in.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: So they'd said, "Oh, he picked me up in a Lamborghini and drove me here," and then the other one said, "Oh, he picked me up in a Porsche and drove me here." And police were like, "Oh, he owns all those cars." So this is the same fucking guy. He just owns multiple cars.
Em Schulz: Amazing. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. So they're, they're on it. Uh, they unfortunately did not have enough evidence for a warrant yet, but pretty soon...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That's not how it works in my mind. Get in there, you know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Hop on in, take some fingerprints. I don't know. Um, but yeah, they did not quite have enough evidence for a warrant until another woman, I just feel like this is such like a strong women-centric episode, another woman comes forward, her name is Monica, she's from England, and three years earlier in 1997, she had met with who she thought was the same man, and he had driven her to a resort apartment with a view of the ocean half an hour from Tokyo with palm trees. And the investigators were like, that's this fucking apartment building.
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: No doubt. She had also been drugged. So when police went with her to the resort, she recognized it, but she couldn't quite remember which building it was, you know, which floor it was. She couldn't remember the details. So they are walking around, trying to canvas people in the area, and they show a photo of Lucie to, uh, a waitress at a restaurant at this apartment building. And this woman's like, "Oh, I recognize her. She was here on July 1st. That was literally the day she went missing." And they said, "Was she alone?" and he said, and the waitress said, "Nope. She was with a man." So they're like...
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: "Fuck, that's... "
Em Schulz: That'll do it.
Christine Schiefer: "That's, that's our guy." So detectives got a list of names of all the people living at the resort to go through one by one, but their suspect's name wasn't there. And they were like, "He gave an alias, so how on earth do we figure out which one of these people it is?" Well, they find the residents with multiple expensive luxury cars and narrow down their search. A listing came up for P-Ohira, which turns out to not be a business at all. It was actually a name. And the Japanese Kanji, which... By the way, Kanji, um, I don't know if you know this, I had to look it up. Do you know what Kanji is?
Em Schulz: Is that a type of food?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, nope. I mean, I, I, I know a restaurant called that, but, um...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: Traditionally, Kanji means it's a system of Japanese writing using Chinese characters.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like uh, a form of, a form of, uh, like the written word. And so the Japanese Kanji for P-Ohira could also be read as Obara, and they're able to put all this together and realize this guy's name is Joji Obara. And when they're looking him up on his record, they discovered he had been arrested before for sneaking into women's restrooms and taking photos of women as they used the bathroom.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck?
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: So a mugshot was faxed to them. Um, it was pretty low quality, but they put it amongst 99 other photos. So there were 100 photos. They showed them to Jessie, Jessie and Monica uh, Jessie's the Australian victim and Monica's the English one, and immediately they're like, "That's him right there." And apparently, they...
Em Schulz: Ding, ding, ding.
Christine Schiefer: They fucking recognized him immediately. And the, the weird part too was like in the photo, his eyes are like closed and he's like looking down because apparently when they tried to take his mugshot, he kept turning around.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, "Fucking stand there and let us take your mugshot," and he like wouldn't let them. So weird. Like, such a fucking child.
Em Schulz: It's like he knew or something. Like he, or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He's like, "I don't want my face out there," you know.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So he's just a sicko. So detectives, uh, couldn't quite link him strongly to Lucie yet. It was just that witness who had seen them together and then the phone records. But they decided to at least arrest him for the rape allegations from the other women. They move in on his apartment at 6:00 AM and Lucie at this point has been missing for 103 days.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. At this point, I, I would've assumed that she's not here anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know, I, I mentioned this later, but her dad said, up until the very end, he hoped, he was holding onto hope that she was still alive, which is just so fucking horrible when cases like this don't go solved, don't get solved, and people just live with that constant like thread of hope.
Em Schulz: Like no closure, nothing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And your brain is like, "Oh, I think the worst has happened," but you want to believe that like they could come back. It's just horrible. It's horrible. So it's been 103 days. Um, and this guy was known for walking out the door a little before 7:00 AM to go pick up a newspaper. So they waited outside and a little before 7:00, he walked out and they arrested him. He went calmly with them, surrendered immediately, and they were able to obtain some more information about this guy. So apparently, Obara was a property mogul who inherited a lot of money from his father. He owned multiple properties. And of course, the police were like, "Alright, give us the fucking keys. We're searching 'em."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So, Em, this is very upsetting. So they go through his properties and they are finding all sorts of weird shit. They find notebooks where he is writing these strange entries about how he is, has decided to become evil and...
Em Schulz: [gasp] What?
Christine Schiefer: He's decided to devote his life to evil acts. Uh...
Em Schulz: What in the world.
Christine Schiefer: Just so disturbing. Then...
Em Schulz: Eww. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They discovered a series of VHS tapes.
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I, I mean, massive trigger warning here, folks, like this is really hard stuff. So they find all these VHS tapes that are labeled with women's names.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Ooh. Oh. And he was drugging them.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: So, okay.
Christine Schiefer: They find 400 of these tapes.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow. That took my breath away.
Christine Schiefer: 400.
Em Schulz: 400.
Christine Schiefer: Obara had drugged and raped hundreds of women and he had recorded all of it. So they're going through these, and of course, they're looking for Lucie or any familiar names. They do not find one of Lucie.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Investigators now had to go through and watch the tapes one by one.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: They were trying to identify as many of the women as possible and ask if they would go on record as well about what happened to them.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Obara insisted it was all consensual. Please. And...
Em Schulz: I, I...
Christine Schiefer: Apparently...
Em Schulz: Without, without question, that's not true.
Christine Schiefer: No. Without question. And one detective even said, "I was dealing with a person who had an extremely warped view of reality."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So of course, when women from these tapes were contacted, a lot of them didn't even know they had been raped. They knew something scary had happened. They knew potentially that they were drugged, or maybe they didn't even know they were drugged and they thought they had eaten something bad. But essentially, it was very, very traumatic for them to have to watch videos of themselves in this position...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And, you know, talk about what had happened or, or identify themselves in the videos. And several of the women said, "That's not me." Like, they just couldn't face that...
Em Schulz: Couldn't accept it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Which I don't, I don't blame them for a second. It's like, you're just living your day and the police are like, "Hey, come watch this." I mean, it must just be so mind-warping, I don't know, to like see that video and not have memory of it. And it's very traumatizing.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: So many of them did identify themselves in the videos and, um, this really helped to build a case against Obara, thank God. Um, several detectives actually had to leave the team because they were too upset by the content of the tapes. Like they were watching the tapes and they were too traumatized and couldn't, couldn't continue.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, in the videos, the women's faces were often draped with a cloth, and they realized he was soaking this cloth in chloroform...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And then laying it on their faces...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And keeping them unconscious.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: One detective noticed a woman's hand twitching violently despite her being unconscious, and he recognized this twitching as a symptom of chloroform poisoning.
Em Schulz: Holy shit. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So he pursues this further. He's like, "I gotta find out who this woman is and see what happened." So he finds out this is Carita Ridgway, and in 1992, she had been living in Tokyo, working as a hostess while her sister taught English, but one day, she disappeared. Then a man dropped her off at the hospital saying she had food poisoning, and then just like fucking peacing out. And after a few days, she went into organ failure and she died.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And there was no autopsy performed, no investigation, because the hospital staff thought she genuinely had food poisoning. But they did keep a sample of her liver. And so now in 2000, several years later, they're able to find traces of chloroform in her liver from all the way back then.
Em Schulz: Holy shit.
Christine Schiefer: So they are officially indicting Obara now for abduction and manslaughter on behalf of Carita. But still, they are like not finding information on Lucie. She's not on any of the tapes, which my guess is that he saw all this in the media and was like, "Well, I'll get rid of those tapes."
Em Schulz: Oh yeah, definitely.
Christine Schiefer: "Nobody needs to see those." And Obara was insisting he had nothing to do with her disappearance, but he did admit that he had met her the week before she disappeared. So they're like, "Mm-hmm."
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Likely story. Obara, uh, was apparently a collector who had a hard time throwing things away, and detectives were able to use this to their advantage because he kept receipts from everything.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: So they were able to like construct an entire timeline of all of his days, all the way back to July 1st and they found out on July 1st that at 3:00 PM, he met with Lucie and they went to the usual ocean resort where he always took his victims.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: They had lunch, and then at 5:00 PM, they returned to his apartment. And that was the last time Lucie was ever seen alive. So late at night on July 2nd, he drove back to Tokyo, and on July 4th, he bought a chainsaw,...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Cement and a tent, like a portable tent.
Em Schulz: Oh My God. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Then he went to another apartment and a neighbor that night made a noise complaint coming from that apartment. So unfortunately, detectives were forced to make the conclusion that he had taken the saw and dismembered Lucie's body...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In one of his apartments, and then had abandoned her remains somewhere. But all they have is circumstantial evidence, like a receipt saying he bought a saw, you know. So...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: They're, they're trying to find real proof that Lucie has been killed. And so they begin digging around his apartment, searching the water near the beach. Um, and of course, the apartment management does not like that there's a murder investigation going on at their building uh, especially 'cause it's like a high, you know, high class establishment. So they keep pressuring police to hurry up. And so once again, police are like rushing and trying to figure out what they can find. And 223 days since Lucie disappeared, they made a discovery.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: One of the detectives was walking along the coast from the apartment and came across a cave. He stepped inside having uh, a gut feeling that something was amiss uh, and he saw carnivorous bugs.
Em Schulz: Carnivorous bugs?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, like as in maggots.
Em Schulz: Oh, I see.
Christine Schiefer: And he's basically like, "That means... "
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "Something has died." And so he begins digging in the sand until he finds the edge of a portable tent, and inside the tent, they found Lucie's body.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. And he... How did they figure out about this cave? He just stumbled upon it?
Christine Schiefer: Literally. They're just canvassing the whole beach area by where he lives, by his apartment building.
Em Schulz: Wild.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And, uh, it took a long time. They canvassed the water, they looked all over the place. But this one detective happened to stumble upon this cave and, and noticed the, the bug activity. So one of the reporters who had gotten pretty close to Lucie's dad Tim, during the investigation, called him to let him know police had discovered a body they believed to be Lucie um, which was just a very shattering moment for her dad.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, 20 minutes later, a translator for the Japanese police also contacted Tim to inform him that they had discovered these remains and that the dental records were a match, confirming this was Lucie.
Em Schulz: Oh shit.
Christine Schiefer: And like I said earlier, Tim said, "I was hopeful all the time right through to that moment." So it was almost like now he has to finally face that she's not coming home, you know.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So, Obara was brought to trial. He was charged with abduction, rape resulting in death and the disposal of Lucie's body. He was also charged with rape resulting in the death of Carita Ridgway. Now, what is pretty tragic about this is that of his estimated 400 crimes, there was only enough evidence to charge him with eight.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God. That's only eight.
Christine Schiefer: Think about the victim, like the number. It's...
Em Schulz: Oh my... Think of the 392 bodies out there that like still don't have closure, or their families don't have closure.
Christine Schiefer: Well, no. So these are just the, the rape victims. They're not all dead.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh, oh, thank God.
Christine Schiefer: Carita Ridgway is the only one who...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause a lot of them came forward and said like, "Hey... "
Em Schulz: Right. No, my brain just made it worse, that's all.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see. Yeah, no, a lot of them... I would say her death was most likely... I mean, I don't know, but I think the theory is that he wasn't...
Em Schulz: She was one of the first deaths.
Christine Schiefer: No. Like he wasn't trying to kill her. It was just like... Just like Carita Ridgway where he dropped her off at the hospital, was like, "Food poisoning." 'Cause he overdosed her on chloroform. Like they... I think the theory is, 'cause he had been doing this for hundreds of people, he's bringing them back, drugging them, raping them, dropping them back off. So what they think happened is that this was an accident on his part and he covered it up.
Em Schulz: You know what's wild though is how many people also might have died from chloroform poisoning or something and he didn't even know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and we... That's exactly it. We don't even know. That's a good point. Like you don't know if they're, if any of... Especially if they couldn't identify the other, say, 300 people or even 100 of 'em, you don't know if they're okay, you don't know if they know this happened. You don't know if they like subconsciously are traumatized or like outwardly traumatized.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah, it's, it's horrific. The number is just shocking. So they only had enough evidence to charge him with eight of these rapes. He received a life sentence for the eight charges of rape and for the death of Carita Ridgway. But on all charges involving Lucie, he was found not guilty.
Em Schulz: What? Why?
Christine Schiefer: I know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: They didn't... They didn't even give...
Christine Schiefer: They just could not come to a conclusion on it and said there's too much doubt and uh...
Em Schulz: Too much doubt? Name a doubt. What are we talking about?
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know.
Em Schulz: Okay. Heartbreaking.
Christine Schiefer: So in a post-sentencing press conference, Tim said Lucie's life was not in vain. Lucie brought justice to Carita Ridgway and the eight other rape victims who bravely came forward to support the case. Detectives spent several years strengthening their case and evidence, and thankfully in 2007, they were able to file an appeal. And in 2008, Obara was finally found guilty of dismembering and...
Em Schulz: Oh, thank God.
Christine Schiefer: Abandoning Lucie's body, rendering his... He had been sentenced to life in prison. Now that he was found guilty of dismembering and abandoning Lucie's body, his life imprisonment is irreversible. So there's no, no, no chance of parole, I guess is what that probably means.
Em Schulz: Okay. Whew. Okay. Well, okay. It, it came later, but I'm glad it happened.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I know. It took them years to like build up another, build up a case for the appeal, but they did, thankfully. So Lucie's mother Jane told the press, "I think justice has been done." And finally, the Blackman family had some sort of closure. And although Obara wouldn't be held individually responsible for every woman he hurt, which again was so many, uh, he would never be able to hurt one again. So, you know, there was that at least sliver of...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. What do you call it? A silver lining, uh, sort of. So Tim said, despite the grief of losing his daughter, Lucie left such an impact on her family's lives. Um, he said, "Those feelings are very pure and untainted by hatred and anger and all the rest of it, because I kept all that out of Lucie's memory." So he is able to almost compartmentalize that so that Lucie's memory is kept happy in his mind.
Em Schulz: Talk about father of the year.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, that seems like very difficult. I'm... I don't know. I'd be... I'd struggle with that for sure. Um, so there is a little bit of drama surrounding the family. Uh, Lucie's parents had gotten divorced several years before her disappearance, and there was a lot of tension, uh, between the parents during the investigation. And apparently, Jane got very upset when her ex-husband accepted, um, a condolence payment. So essentially, there's this thing you're allowed in the Japanese law legal system. It's a payment called a condolence payment. And you can use this as a tool for the dependent to express remorse in hopes of getting a lighter sentence. But this money wasn't from Obara. It was from his friend from school.
Em Schulz: Huh?
Christine Schiefer: Like a college friend.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And this guy felt so guilty that he offered 100 million yen, which is $680,000 to Tim. And Tim took the money and his ex-wife was not happy about that. She called it blood money. She said, "I do not like that he's accepting payments from... "
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "On behalf of this guy who murdered our daughter."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, but then the other side of that... She called it obscene. The other side of that, uh, is Tim said, you know, "I'm using this to pay off the debts while I was living in Japan for all those months and, uh, support her siblings, you know, who have so much grief and need so much healing." Um, and also he used some of the money to establish a trust in Lucie's name to provide crisis support for people who go missing abroad and for their families. So, you know, at least something good came with this...
Em Schulz: Okay. Good. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Money. Um, but again, Jane and other family members called it blood money, called it obscene, were deeply upset that Tim had accepted it. So there's definitely some tension there. Um, there was just so much, I, I imagine so much pain and grief in the wake of losing Lucie that the tension that I assume already existed considering they had gotten divorced relatively recently was just like ratcheted up like several notches.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. Totally.
Christine Schiefer: So it was very difficult obviously for the family to move on. Um, unfortunately, one of Lucie's family members attempted suicide, uh, due to the overwhelming grief. But today, most of Lucie's family lives, uh, pretty quiet lives pretty private. Um, this 2023 Netflix documentary that I was talking about is, is very thorough, very good. But the only person, uh, who really gets involved in the documentary is Lucie's father. Um, and he speaks about his side of the ordeal. And you do see Jane, Sophie and Rupert, but they only show up in like press clippings from the time of the investigation. They did not participate in the actual making of the documentary.
Em Schulz: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in the documentary, one of the detectives on Lucie's case, uh, said that he traveled to England in 2010 to visit Lucie's grave because it had, had such an impact on him, this case.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And while he was there, he stopped to see her mom, Jane, and she made him tea. And they have a photo together. It's very sweet.
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And apparently once a year, for about 20 years now, the detectives, a group of them goes to the spot by the sea, that cave where they found Lucie and they light incense and pray, uh, as a way to appease her spirit and to pray she rests in peace.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: So that is the case of Lucie Blackman.
Em Schulz: Wow. I wanted to ask earlier, do you know if there was, um... Uh, I think there was a Law and Order episode about this.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, probably. I feel like ripped from the headlines. I feel like they take the stories. It wouldn't surprise me.
Em Schulz: I think it was also the, the year, like a year after it happened. I, I... But a lot of it sounded familiar. But...
Christine Schiefer: Lucie Blackman, Law and Order SVU...
Em Schulz: It was a...
Christine Schiefer: I also wanna say the name, um, name of the documentary real quick. Uh, it's called Missing: The Lucie Blackman Case. And it came out this year, 2023. So it's pretty recent.
Em Schulz: Where, where is it? Is it on, um...
Christine Schiefer: Netflix.
Em Schulz: Netflix. Okay, cool.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Wow. I, um... God, I was really hoping in the end she was gonna have, somehow survived, but...
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's really... It's really tragic. Um, and to just uncover such a dark crime spree.
Em Schulz: Well, also thank God that the, that the dad was so...
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Vigilant about this because they ended up finding out what happened to 400 women, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like they uncovered such a dark, dark crime spree this guy was on that would've, as we know, just gone on and on and on until he got caught.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So really, I mean, obviously so many women were deeply traumatized when they had to watch this video. A lot of the detectives who had to watch it were deeply troubled by it. It's just very, uh, very upsetting. Um, so...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Again, you know, there's nothing graphic in the, um, documentary, but just proceed with caution, you know, make sure you're in the right head space, I guess I would say.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Good storytelling, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Ooffa-doofa. I mean, one of these days, I'll cover a happy one. Probably not.
Em Schulz: I feel like in, in this amount of time, I think you've only covered maybe three or four happy stories. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh. And one of them was like a fake one about you.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Oh, well, what was my name in that?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh my God. We gotta remember. Um, it was so fucked up.
Em Schulz: Cletus.
Christine Schiefer: Cletus. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Stupid. Alright. Well, from Cletus to the Hircine Shifter, uh, I hope everyone has a good week. Uh, and, uh, we'll, we'll see you next week, uh, for another episode of Christine bumming us out and me trying my best. So...
Christine Schiefer: I'll be there.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.