E350 Eyelid Licking Demons and Black Cat Broomsticks
TOPICS: The Lore of the Black Cat, Heather Mayer
Eva and Shadow during the recording of this episode
Heather Mayer (from the Star Tribune)
Heather Mayer (from the Star Tribune)
Oh Christine, oh Christine, next week's Halloween! Episode 350 is a big one and has us in our heads and our hearts as we re-evaluate and discuss the word "spooky" and dive into our Halloween season tales. First, cat girlies to the front, Em takes us on a historical journey into the lore of the black cat. Then Christine covers the incredibly tragic story of Heather Mayer and the abuse and misuse of the BDSM community. And we'll be thinking of the Roman Empire like men do too now that we know it involved so many cats... and that's why we drink!
Big trigger warning for Christine's story this week involving domestic and sexual violence.
If you are experiencing domestic violence or know someone who is, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is 1-800-799-7233. You can also chat with them, or text START to 88788. We love you!
Transcript
[intro music]
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Never, never ever will we ever figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: Never a dull moment.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine, oh Christine, next week's Halloween.
Christine Schiefer: Ah! That's cute.
Em Schulz: Thank you. And I was on-the-fly if you couldn't tell.
Christine Schiefer: Why did I never realize that my name rhymes with Halloween?
Em Schulz: I also had to tell you your baby's name has, can be spelled out of Halloween letters, so you know.
Christine Schiefer: You did. I mean, you also told me that her name is a little too close for comfort to the word lemon. Um, so I think...
Em Schulz: And demon. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait, that's true. I think I just don't see what I don't wanna see. You know what I mean? Very selective... Selective...
Em Schulz: That's a fun game to live through life.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it is actually. You should try it sometime.
Em Schulz: Well, happy pre-Halloween. Are, are you getting in um, hm, the, the mindset? Are you ready to eat a lot of candy? Are you gonna dress up?
Christine Schiefer: I literally... [laughter] Literally before we recorded, I was like, "I have to go get my candy," and I went and got a giant bag of candy. And by the way, folks, as we record, this is October 3rd. So the answer is yes, I'm already on my candy game. Um, now that Leona's birthday's over, I am in Halloween prep mode. Um, how are you doing over there, Em, across the nation?
Em Schulz: Oh, you know, just, just checking, just keeping the West Coast safe for you, Christine. That's how I am.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you so much for doing that for me.
Em Schulz: And uh, as of October 3rd, my home is going to be decorated in the next 24 hours...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Um, and I'm gonna be decorating the front door. Nobody else in our entire complex decorates the front door, you know, and I just...
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: I know. And I'm...
Christine Schiefer: If I had an apartment like that, that's what I would do, like make the front door all fun, you know.
Em Schulz: My, my mom always said that when she lived in an apartment building growing up, that was the best time to go trick or treating 'cause you could just knock on all the doors down the hall and they'd all open the doors at the same time.
Christine Schiefer: And you don't have to leave the building.
Em Schulz: And you would down the hall and grab everyone's candy.
Christine Schiefer: That's such a dream.
Em Schulz: That's so nice.
Christine Schiefer: It's like Eloise, you know.
Em Schulz: It's a, it's exactly like that except she was in the projects. But, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Is your mom Eloise? Oh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, but uh, I mean, she felt like Eloise when there was six people handing candy out all at the same time, so...
Christine Schiefer: Fuck yes.
Em Schulz: Um, yes, everything will be decorated. I don't have candy yet, but I will get there. And I don't have anything I'm dressing up as, but you know, I'm, I'm looking at getting ready for all the events, all the jump scares I'm going to, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I hate that. But everything else sounds like fun.
Em Schulz: Well, anyway, speaking of Halloween, and before we get into anything, I, I wanna bring up last week because I'm feeling very... I don't know. I don't know what the right word is. I feel very...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, well, we've already talked to our therapist. Well, I've talked to Em, and Em has talked to their therapist. So I've just...
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I...
Christine Schiefer: Talked to a therapist through Em somehow. Um...
Em Schulz: Well, I just felt, I just felt weird and, uh, weird isn't even the right word, it's, it's... I just kind of... I feel... I definitely feel bad and I feel um...
Christine Schiefer: I'll tell you what I feel. I feel slightly embarrassed. I feel um...
Em Schulz: Embarrassed.
Christine Schiefer: I feel kind of like I'm kicking myself a little bit and I feel like a... What's the other word? We were identifying our feelings a little bit. Um, by the way, when this comes out, it wasn't last week 'cause it came out on the first, the episode we're talking about, um, but it came out, let's see, uh, three weeks ago when this comes out.
Em Schulz: Oh, God. A while ago, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But, but for us, it was like yesterday. So um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I just... I still feel kind of just weird about it. So we had been told a few times um, that... This is, by the way, in reference to us using or not using the word spooky...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And um, we had been told behind the scenes uh, quite a few times that you know, people had been reaching out saying that that word actually was offensive and we needed to, you know, uh, you know, maybe...
Christine Schiefer: Nix it from the vocabulary.
Em Schulz: Nix it. And so that's why when we, you know... After we heard that enough times on the next episode we recorded, we brought that up and we came in too hot and we...
Christine Schiefer: We did.
Em Schulz: I think we, we both, uh, as you probably know after so many episodes, we spiral. And so we had been told this information um, you know, right before we recorded, and so I think it was on the front of both of our minds to just like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: You know, address it and we should have definitely done more research beforehand instead of just...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that's what I'm embarrassed about a little bit. I'm like, I should've...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like, we should have known better by now that like, you know, we don't just take things at face value without like more thought and uh, research. And I, I feel that we kind of, yeah, like you said, jumped too hot into the situation and felt like almost a...
Em Schulz: I think we were just...
Christine Schiefer: I think some people felt like defensive a little bit 'cause we just kind of were like, "Uh, this is the way it is."
Em Schulz: We're not saying that word anymore. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And uh, it just fell in like... I mean, I recognize that and um, you know, people have been debating online and men, most people are being very, you know, kind and trying to defend us and we do really appreciate that, uh, but it's caused a little bit of...
Em Schulz: A kerfuffle. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Controversy, yes, amongst our listeners and we apologize for that. That was not the intention.
Em Schulz: Especially during Halloween season, I feel like it was like uh, a particularly touchy subject 'cause this is the time when everyone's saying that word. But I, I think um, we... I don't know. We were... We thought we were doing the right thing because if you've been listening long enough, you know that we're always trying to be on the right side of history and we have a platform and we wanna you know, address things and, and help educate others. But at the same time, we have a platform and we should have like, known what we were talking about before we...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Jumped right into it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and so we were trying to do the right thing and, you know, sometimes the right thing is also to um, say when you were wrong.
Christine Schiefer: To wait a beat maybe. Yeah.
Em Schulz: To wait a beat.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah, yeah. To, to talk about it afterward and be like, "Hey," you know, and like we know that it's, it, it'll probably die down pretty soon, like the conversation online you know, but um, we just wanted to like... We didn't wanna just like go back and delete that part of the episode and then like pretend like it never happened, like revisionist history. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: We felt like that was just kind of um, insincere. And so we thought we'd just say something now and just say, you know, we talked to several people who have said like, you know, I... A lot of people who chimed in were people of color and we were like, "Oh thank God, like some people are putting their own personal, you know, uh, spin on it, letting us know what their experience is and that is something we should have done before we talked about it on the show, but... "
Em Schulz: We just heard it was... We just heard enough times that it was offensive and we went, "Okay, well, we're not gonna say it anymore," which usually works.
Christine Schiefer: Usually, that works pretty damn well. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But then all of a sudden there, there were people saying like, "Oh, this information really came from one article." And we hadn't even done any, any research. We were totally going off of like, like people just reaching out and saying...
Christine Schiefer: Like I looked, read that article, but that's the one perspective I read. Like I read that one article. I didn't like really dive into it and that is my fault and again I'm quite embarrassed about that. Um, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, anyway, all that to say, I don't know, what's the, what's the thesis statement, Em?
Em Schulz: It sounds like 95% of people are saying that it's an okay word to say and other than that one article...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: That I guess someone else had read and, and relayed to us, and um... I mean, it sounds like it's an okay word to say, but I, I also... You know, it's such a touchy subject now because we like...
Christine Schiefer: We've created like a big uh...
Em Schulz: We've created a monster.
Christine Schiefer: It's teams almost.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's really not even that bad. It's, you know, just a few people who are kind of debating, which is fair um, and understandable.
Em Schulz: And I'm, I'm, I'm happy that there's a discourse about it, you know, that like...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely.
Em Schulz: I want... I'd... If there's anything we want out of this podcast, it's that we want to, you know, educate other people like us to even just think about these kinds of things. So...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, you know, I'm, I'm grateful that it seems like most people are having civil discourse on this. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, definitely.
Em Schulz: But now I'm, I'm kind of at a loss because I feel like, "Oh, it sounds like it's an okay thing to say, but now I'm gonna be paranoid every time I say it. So maybe just, you know, time will heal that. But... "
Christine Schiefer: I think... Yeah, I think we just need to like wait to uh, hear... I don't know. Wait... Yeah, like you said, give it some time, like wait for other people's perspectives um, before we, you know, totally lean one direction or another. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and just apologize for, you know, uh, creating a little bit of a kerfuffle, which was not the intention of our, our statement.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It really was not. But...
Em Schulz: No. We were, we were just trying to do the right thing and it, it backfired.
Christine Schiefer: Whoops.
Em Schulz: So whoopsies. Um, okay. I just wanted to address that before Halloween season was over, and then all of a sudden we like, you know... If we're ever gonna talk about it, it should be during Halloween season right? So...
Christine Schiefer: I agree. And like... I'm like, what if we say spooky sometime and then people are like, "Really? Now you're just totally 180-ing on your own thing"? And so, yeah, we want it to be like fully transparent and say, "Whoops,like we clearly hear you guys." [laughter]
Em Schulz: We came in too hot. We came in way too hot.
Christine Schiefer: We came in way too hot and we apologize and we will use this as uh, a learning lesson, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, other than that, is there a reason why you drink, Christine?
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's pretty much a big one. I did cry yesterday. It did break through the Zoloft. Uh, and again, I wasn't like upset with the listeners or anything. I was just embarrassed really, and I think um...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I don't handle that well, like the kind of shame of that. So uh, I did a little reflection...
Em Schulz: Well, my, my therapist...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I was telling Christine, my therapist called it a critique of our character because...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, is what, how we perceived it at least. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah, is that we, we felt like um... Yeah. We just... We, we...
Christine Schiefer: Like we felt like we were being called, like accused of being performative and stuff, which, you know, is uh, a fair thing to call people out for, um, but you know...
Em Schulz: But we really, we're trying to be so genuine. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: We really were. Uh, yeah, we really were. But...
Em Schulz: But I also... It was like a critique on our... Uh, a self-critique on our character too, of just like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Oh, what does that... Like what do I need to work on?" So anyway, it was a big emotional day for both of us yesterday, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, anyway, what uh... I had a different reason why I drink. Um, oh, I'm um... I found an old picture of my... I'm going through my, my photo frames, my like, my whole wall...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And I was... I found this old picture of like a family member. It looks like it's the first picture to ever exist. It's from like the 1840s or something.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: It's the old... I... And they're apparently related to me. Um, and I was like, "What if I just find all of these like old archived family pictures and put them in the, the picture frames on my wall and just make it look like I bought all these from like Spirit Halloween where it's like they're pictures where you walk by...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's funny.
Em Schulz: And that they become a... It looks like they turn to a zombie or something if you walk too far past the picture.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: So anyway, I, I drink this week because I'm now going through all of ancestry, I didn't have enough pictures and I have to like scour ancestry to find...
Christine Schiefer: Shut up.
Em Schulz: My oldest relative on each side of the family and I'm gonna print them out and put them on our walls and make them permanent photos until Allison wants to change it. But I hope that she doesn't.
Christine Schiefer: Permanent pictures of your home. I mean...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: That's a recipe for a haunting, but okay, you do you, I guess.
Em Schulz: I know. I'm like, "Will I, will I feel like they're staring at me all the time?" I don't know. But um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, definitely... I will, if they're behind you while we record.
Em Schulz: We'll find out. So actually, that would be a great backdrop, wouldn't it?
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it's actually kind of an ideal backdrop 'cause it's like meaningful, but also a little scary.
Em Schulz: Yeah. We'll shop it. We'll shop it.
Christine Schiefer: I like it.
Em Schulz: Anyway, that's why I drink. I'm currently going... I'm, I'm doing a deep dive of any photographic evidence that um, you know, people in my blood line existed all those years ago. So that's why I drink.
Christine Schiefer: I love it. Well, I drink 'cause Leona's birthday party was a roaring success.
Em Schulz: How was it? Was it...
Christine Schiefer: It, it's so fun. It really went so great. Uh, I actually took photos this year. Last year, we like barely got any pictures. This year, I tasked everybody with taking photos. I even gave my phone to someone else and was like, "Just take photos for me."
Em Schulz: Aww
Christine Schiefer: Um, so I'll post those online. It was just really sweet and fun. And it was like 70 people. It was crazy.
Em Schulz: Woah!
Christine Schiefer: Um, yeah...
Em Schulz: Who did you invite? What the hell?
Christine Schiefer: So a lot of people came, a lot of our family in-laws, um, kids from Leona's toddler program, uh, you know, friends in the area. It was a...
Em Schulz: How's the... How's the clean-up situation from that?
Christine Schiefer: Well, my mother-in-law was in town and I woke up the next day and my house was cleaner than it was before the party. So I was like...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, listen, I feel extremely lucky. Uh, and it was really great. And now the house is kind of quiet. I, I have taken three naps in the last two days because I'm...
Em Schulz: Good for you.
Christine Schiefer: So fricking exhausted. [laughter] Um...
Em Schulz: The, the amount of planning that goes into a party, no one ever appreciates it. It's wild, daunting.
Christine Schiefer: They came over and were like, "All of this is for the party?" and I was like, "Yeah." And they were like, "This isn't like doubles? You didn't accidentally ordered doubles or something?" And I was like, "No. All of these boxes need to be opened and used." It was many days of prep work, which I know was not necessary.
Em Schulz: I'm sure.
Christine Schiefer: And I always tell myself like, "Oh, I'll do really low-key this year." Like, who do I think I'm kidding, you know?
Em Schulz: Well, also like, 'cause my thought too, I, I would, I would turn into you by the way, let's be clear, but my...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: My brain without a baby is... Like even my own mom, she's like, "You don't remember when I did this, this and this for you?" and I was like, "I was fucking two. No, I don't remember."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That wasn't for me. That was for the grown-ups.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So in my mind, I'm like, I won't really do anything like mind-blowing until my child can even remember it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I would still find a way to go over the top, so...
Christine Schiefer: But it's fun 'cause it's sort of like, oh, now you have kind of an excuse to invite everyone over and like...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Get great... It's like all the photos. And we did like a little guest book where people wrote in her copy of Hungry Caterpillar little messages, like a little guest book for the party, and people wrote her little notes for the future. And so every year we're gonna have like a different guest book, just little fun stuff like that. And I don't know. It was... Obviously, I know it was more fun for me, uh, than anyone probably.
Em Schulz: She was probably just like, "What is going on here?" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: She was a... Like pardon the pun. She was a social butterfly. Like she was running around and just high-fiving everyone. She went through this one hour through the party, she would just wander around and pat everyone on the leg, like just even people she's never met, just pat them twice on the leg, keep walking.
Em Schulz: That's so sweet.
Christine Schiefer: Just say hi to everyone, do the rounds, um... So it's fun.
Em Schulz: What's it like to have a toddler now? She's not a baby anymore.
Christine Schiefer: She's two. She's so big. Uh, she's a little chatterbox. Um, I can't wait for you to see her again, Em, 'cause my mother-in-law saw her in August in Germany, and then she came this time and she's like, holy crap, like she's speaking full sentences. She's singing. She's making jokes. Like I feel like every week there's new development, so...
Em Schulz: Making jokes?
Christine Schiefer: Like she thinks they're funny, but... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Well, hey, alright.
Christine Schiefer: And she makes herself laugh, so I mean, which makes everyone else laugh. But yeah, I feel like uh...
Em Schulz: That's precious.
Christine Schiefer: You, you two will have a good time when, whenever you reconnect again.
Em Schulz: It's about to um... The era is about to begin. Yeah. Because I don't, I don't do well with babies because I can't, I can't explain to them how funny I am.
Christine Schiefer: Right. 'Cause you know, you don't have to explain to adults how funny you are. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, like they can't... Like it's not clicking, you know. It's not clicking the right way. But once like she understands like, oh no, I'm a person, I'm the director of Funville, like then all of a sudden she's gonna be like, "I fucking like you." Like originally...
Christine Schiefer: She'd be like, "That's the fun crowd. That's the one I wanna be part of."
Em Schulz: She's gonna be like, "You were just holding me, like boring." But like once I'm like, "Hey, let's do this, this and this and all these things your mom won't let you do," all of a sudden she's gonna be like, "Oh, that fucking guy. Yeah, let's be friends," you know?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Funcle Em is here to play.
Em Schulz: Funcle Em waited two years, but Funcle Em's about to get crazy. So...
Christine Schiefer: Em's about to throw down. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, so um, anyway, looking forward to that. Um, my story for you this week, Christine, because I wanted to get to the Halloween spirit, um, I thought you would appreciate this.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: This is the lore of the black cat.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So cat girlies to the front, cat girlies to the front.
Christine Schiefer: Awwww. I'm here, I'm here, I'm here.
Em Schulz: So here is a brief history, a one-on-one...
Christine Schiefer: Here comes, here comes Eva. I'm screaming! Eva and I are in the front row.
Em Schulz: As someone who uh, has a black cat, and both of you, I feel like you'll really appreciate this episode...
Christine Schiefer: Shadow and Moonshine, shoutout.
Em Schulz: Two of the best names. I know Shadow is like probably the most like obvious name for a black cat, but it, it's one of those... It's, it's a classic. Like it's so good.
Christine Schiefer: I had a cat named, a black cat named Shadow also growing up. It's a great name for a cat.
Em Schulz: It's a great name. I had a black cat growing up. Um, he did not have a cool name, but I didn't get to name him, to be fair.
Christine Schiefer: Well, what's his name?
Em Schulz: His name was Rocky. Blegh. But like I want...
Christine Schiefer: That's kinda cute.
Em Schulz: I wanted a Shadow. I wanted a Moonshine. Well, I want... Well, not a Moonshine, but something cool, you know. I feel like Rocky, which is kind of like low grade, like it's a good name, but it's not original.
Christine Schiefer: Like Buddy or something.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Which is also a good name. Don't be offended, everyone. I'm just saying like, you know, your classic, like Rufus, Buddy.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like there wasn't too much originality to it. I feel like someone just kinda threw that name out and it just stuck. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I tried for a while to shop Rocket, no one wanted that. But Rocky...
Christine Schiefer: Rocket.
Em Schulz: I wanted something dope, but whatever.
Christine Schiefer: Rocky Raccoon.
Em Schulz: So um, anyway, to all my cat girlies, here we are. This is...
Christine Schiefer: Hey.
Em Schulz: The black cat. Now, black cats are often known as, um, they're associated with Halloween superstitions. They're often seen as witches' familiars. And in modern western superstitions, they're associated with trickery and evil magic and bad luck. Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Hm. Hm.
Em Schulz: Before this, we're gonna do a deep dive into the history of the cat. Um, and before this, many cultures for thousands of years linked cats with magic, gods and the afterlife. So this... It goes forever back. Historically, cats started out in good favor with humans, and this is like 10,000 years ago, it's thought that we began to live amongst cats, or cats began to live amongst us.
Christine Schiefer: 10,000. Geez.
Em Schulz: I can't even... My brain doesn't work that way. But it's said that that long ago we began to live alongside each other. Um, fun fact, the very first evidence of a pet cat, 9,500 years ago.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. A pet cat?
Em Schulz: Pet cat.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Because uh, there, there's a 9500-year-old burial site in Cyprus and uh, a cat is buried next to a human. They found the remains of both. And this, by the way, predates Egyptian cats by like around like 4,000 years.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: You had to be... You had to... That probably... That guy was probably like that guy in the neighborhood where everyone was like, "This guy with his like fricking cat that he's befriended," like it must have been such a weird concept. It's like...
Em Schulz: It must have been weird. But he knew...
Christine Schiefer: He had the first pet cat, you know.
Em Schulz: But he, he loved that cat. He was the Eva of 10,000 years ago.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He was, he's like, "I give zero fucks what you guys think about me. He's my friend."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So they were buried together. And I said that this was in Cyprus, but Cyprus was in an area where cats were native to the area, so it's theorized even further that not only did these two become buddies, but humans must have brought cats with them to travel there. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's cute.
Em Schulz: So they, you know, moved around together. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Precious.
Em Schulz: This shows that humans were associating with cats thousands of years earlier than scholars originally thought, 'cause they originally thought maybe in Egypt is when the relationship really got big.
Christine Schiefer: Right. That's kind of what I thought.
Em Schulz: Well, it's thought that we began living alongside cats in the Fertile Crescent, which depending on the scholar, that could be modern day Iraq, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, or Egypt. So um, everyone's got a different opinion on where that area is. But um, they think that cats and humans started hanging out in this area because at this time in this area, that was where housing um, started attracting a lot of rodents because they would keep crops and grain storage near the permanent home.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right.
Em Schulz: And so, since these homes were like the first to have food nearby all the time, this was the first area where rodents were just everywhere. And...
Christine Schiefer: That does make sense.
Em Schulz: These settlements were great hunting grounds for cats who were hunting rodents or eating our trash to survive. And eventually the cats just kinda stuck around and we saw them as free pest control, so we kept them around and didn't have a problem with it. And I guess over time, we just started bonding with them and they became our friends. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yay.
Em Schulz: Also fun fact, in ancient Rome, soldiers would keep cats in their forts because rats were known to chew on armored equipment. So cats were important during war.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, listen, look at them, they know they're worth.
Em Schulz: They have known for 10,000 years.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] They're like, "Duh."
Em Schulz: No wonder they're so snooty. They're just like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: "I fucking know. My father and his father before him, we were helping in ancient Roman in wars, okay?"
Christine Schiefer: I come from a... I'm gonna get Moonshine's ancestors' old photos from Ancestry [laughter] and hang them up behind me while you do yours, your ancestry wall. I'm gonna have Moon's ancestry wall behind me.
Em Schulz: I am telling you, if like, like when men are always thinking about the Roman empire, I hope they're including the thought of cat saving the day, you know.
Christine Schiefer: If, if I... If that were like the angle, I would probably also think of the Roman empire every week, you know?
Em Schulz: Right. All of a sudden it makes sense. I'm like, "Oh... "
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: It does. I... That I can get behind. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. So cats might have had um, an ancient spiritual significance uh, in cultures that are now lost to time, but later in Egypt, they definitely had a huge spiritual significance. Um, Egyptians believed that cats were of this world and other worlds. They could cross into both and that they were divine protectors of the underworld, and so they were guides for the dead and they were peace bringers.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: They also thought that cats represented fertility and power and justice. And they were seen as protectors and hunters. They were seen as both because not only could they control the rat population but the snake population. So they were hunters for the rats, but they were protecting us the entire time because they could also take down snakes that would kill us.
Christine Schiefer: Damn.
Em Schulz: So they had a... Immediately they were known as like having a duality to them of like being protective, but also dangerous.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, uh, cats have also been associated with a lot of Egyptian uh, a lot of deities, but especially the Egyptian goddess Bastet or Bast, who was the... She... It looked like uh, a female figure with the head of a lion, um, and then over time it actually evolved into the head of a domestic cat. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, I wonder if it was like, "Oh, 'cause she's so fierce like a lion, but then people started making friends with cats that it's just kind of the depiction of her."
Christine Schiefer: "I like to look a little more like my cat, Bob, so I'm gonna alter it." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. The image changed to Bob. So...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Um, but this goddess, she was the goddess of protection and good health and pleasure. And Egyptians also often depicted cats as dedicated to serving humanity. So they, again, had a dual nature where they were um, deadly but protective.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: In Japanese folklore, cats were also dual-natured animals because they could walk between worlds, um, but they were less serving to humanity. So they weren't really there for you. We were just lucky to be in their presence.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, that seems like it. We've come back around to that angle.
Em Schulz: I feel like, especially Juniper is like, "Can confirm." Um...
Christine Schiefer: Correct. Juniper's like, "Now you're onto something."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, they were known to cause either, uh... Because they were seen as less serving to humans and they had more of a free will...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: They were seen as huge problems because they... We couldn't predict what they were doing and they could either...
Christine Schiefer: You can't like train them like a dog. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you can, but not quite as easily.
Em Schulz: Well, so because of that, they were mischievous and...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: They could either bring you great fortune or really bad fortune.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: So that might be the beginning of where we see us not totally knowing what cats are all about every now and then that they've, they've got a little more independence to them. Uh, in Norse history, cats were, again, magical creatures who would bring good luck, but only if owners treated them well. So now they've got conditions. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Now, that I could get onboard with though, like, yeah, you should treat them well.
Em Schulz: And... Yeah, I... That I'm totally down for.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, now we're... We've got boundaries. Okay."
Christine Schiefer: "Now we've got demands. Okay."
Em Schulz: Demands, exactly. So cats were used in Norse rituals. Uh, in one of the stories, to bind one of Loki's children, one of the ingredients was the sound of a cat's footfall...
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: Which is kind of ironic 'cause I feel like you can never hear a cat's footfall.
Christine Schiefer: Have you heard Junie walk down the stairs?
Em Schulz: Oh, no.
Christine Schiefer: We almost called the police once. We thought it was a man... Like a man was in the house. And it was literally Juniper. He's so F-ing loud, like the house shakes when he walks down the stairs.
Em Schulz: I'm sure there's a story to that of a... Or uh, a reason to that mythologically of like, "Oh, he's one of the ones that we would have needed for Loki's children," you know? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, maybe. He's like, "I'm just stomping around in case anyone needs to hear my footfalls, okay?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, also in Norse mythology, there was Freyja who was a goddess who rode a chariot pulled by two cats.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: And she was the goddess of love, so she was linked with fertility and sexuality and femininity, which is some of the things that cats became associated with...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Was especially like the slinky-ness, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: Um, in Norse tradition, there are also early stories of black cats being associated with fearsome magic and power. There's one story of a gigantic black cat, um, that could breathe fire and killed 20 men in just a few minutes. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. That's called a dragon, but whatever.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: They're actually descendants, kinda like how chickens are descendants of dinosaurs. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Makes perfect sense.
Em Schulz: Cats are descendants of dragons. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Makes perfect sense. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Um, there's also a, an, an Icelandic story of a man who owned 20 black cats because, uh... And he... Or sorry. He owned 20 black cats and he used sorcery to make them powerful. So now all cats are powerful.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, the cats terrorized his neighborhood and, uh, they ended up being called "hell cats". But hell was for...
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: The daughter of Loki, who is the goddess of the underworld. So this brings us back to the original theories that they...
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That's fun.
Em Schulz: Go in-between both worlds.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So this is kind of the, the early beginnings of black cats specifically being associated with the underworld and thus big scary monsters, and thus the unknown.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, other associations with, um, like cats being linked to sorcery or cats being linked to the dead, um, or even like because they were associated in some way to femininity and thus, like I said, the slinky-ness...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, they... These kind of associations really took hold after Christianity came into Europe or took hold in Europe. So, um, now all of a sudden cats are really all about witchcraft and the dead and sexuality.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: So you can see how quickly we jump into what...
Christine Schiefer: Now sexuality is like a bad thing because it represents like sinning, or it's like the opposite of purity and all that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, especially because it was linked to sexuality and femininity, and God forbid, woman being sexual, right?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right. God forbid. Yeah, that's not... That's a wrong kind of sexuality.
Em Schulz: There's no such thing. It doesn't exist. Um...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: That's true. It's all made up.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, uh, for one thing, Christian missionaries, uh, were especially critical of Freyja because she was a goddess expressing sexual power, um, and she was associated with cats. And so now not only her but cats are threats to Christian beliefs. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Amen.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: It's so stupid. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Cats were also, because they were associated with, um, sorcery uh, they, uh, were now also associated with Hecate who I've talked about and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: She was the Greek goddess of magic, sorcery, witchcraft. So this further links cats to not just, um, you know, sexuality and things that Christian, uh, heavy Christian beliefs were against, but now if it, the cat is also linked to witchcraft, it's linking them to paganism, true evil, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Throughout the medieval era, opinions on cats went back and forth because they were still seen as practical livestock, um, especially if you lived in a city and there were more rat, rodents.
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: Um, so having cats around just to keep rodents at bay, um, they also... You know, cats were still seen as good because they were technically protecting our food. They were keeping homes clean.
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: And during the medieval era, they were preventing disease. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah, fair point.
Em Schulz: So in some ways it's like, "Yeah, we've got all these things going for us, um, where we're against cats, but also they're a really useful tool." And...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That brings them back in good standing. But cats being essentially nocturnal and more active at night made them still seem mysterious and threatening and looming.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So even though they were useful, they were still linked to creatures of the old gods and forgotten magic and threatening Christianity, and they're still a little creepy 'cause they move around at night. "What are you up to?" Um, that's how...
Christine Schiefer: And they don't do what you say and their tails flick around and they stare at you and you feel like they're reading your soul, you know. Just little things like that.
Em Schulz: Also, [chuckle] I'm sure like even the, the original root of... Like all the way back to Japanese folklore of like cats are independent, I feel like that wasn't a big thing that Christianity was looking for either, so like, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: You have to like be obedient in all this stuff and cats are like, "I'm doing whatever the fuck I want," so...
Christine Schiefer: Cats are like, "Yeah, sure, whatever," and then they just like knock your water glass over and they're like, "What are you gonna do about it?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "Oh my God. Okay. You are a little scary."
Em Schulz: They really will do anything. One of Deirdre's cats, last time I slept over, I woke up to it licking my eyelid like, ugh, like a sandpaper tongue.
Christine Schiefer: Eww! [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. It felt demonic. It felt really awful.
Christine Schiefer: It... Uh, yeah, certainly, that... Nothing good was happening there. No, no.
Em Schulz: Oof. Woof. That felt like... Uh, that alone, I was like, "Be gone, demon," you know?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Begone, demon." You did convert to Christianity that day, which makes a lot of sense now. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anytime I'm around that cat, I just start saying Hail Marys and...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Protect me."
Em Schulz: So these are now, although useful, they are seen as eerie creatures. We don't, we don't know everything about them. They're linked to old Gods.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And to tip the scales even further, um, now we have the, one of the first rises of Satanist panics and which trials and cats, especially black cats are assigned to the devil because...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: In medieval times, that was the beginning of this. There was one writer who even claimed that the devil would take form of a black cat to seek out followers. So if you saw a black cat, the devil was coming after you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy.
Em Schulz: And when talking about... This is the same medieval writer. Uh, he, he said... This is a quote uh, about satanic followers um, hanging out with black cats and the devil. Here's the quote. "The devil descends as a black cat before his devotees. Worshippers put out the light and draw near and they feel him, they feel after him, and when they have found him, they kiss him under the tail."
Christine Schiefer: Eww!
Em Schulz: Right on his little...
Christine Schiefer: Eww! First of all, the, the first part of that was all correct, that the devil does descend as a black cat and we all worship him.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But the rest of it, like that's just gross, guys. Come on.
Em Schulz: Then you feel around for him in the dark and you... First of all, can you imagine feeling around for a black cat in the pitch black, and then grabbing a hold of its tail, and then [chuckle] like getting anywhere near that cat? No, absolutely not.
Christine Schiefer: And as if the cat would ever be like okay with that. Come on.
Em Schulz: Right. Right. So anyway, that one sentence was a lot even for 2023. So I imagine in medieval era, it really just threw people into a tizzy.
Christine Schiefer: It's stupid and outrageous. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So now people are linking black cats to not just Satan, but, you know, Satanic followers, Satanic rituals, and also just general un-cleanliness and degrading humiliation because...
Christine Schiefer: Horrible.
Em Schulz: You're kissing a cat on, on his little spot. Um...
Christine Schiefer: That's just bullying.
Em Schulz: So now black cats equal devil. And Pope Gregory the 9th actually heard these stories and declared himself the black cats were in cahoots with the devil. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Pope Gregory was a little um, trigger-happy with that. Um... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So that being said though, even though the pope was like, "Black cats are bad," a lot of... And cats in general, he said, were bad. But nuns in monasteries actually ignored the pope a lot and kept cats in their churches and in their homes because they were still useful animals. So I feel like it's um... I don't know a good example of this, but it feels like the cats are like, "Yeah, we've got a bad rep, but like we still have a skill everybody needs."
Christine Schiefer: "We have something to offer." Yeah, it's... Yeah. It's like you're... Oh, what's the word for that?
Em Schulz: They still keep getting invited to the party. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like that... Argh. Uh yeah, I know exactly what you were trying to say like uh...
Em Schulz: It's like that guy at the office that everyone fucking hates, but he's the only one who knows Excel, you know. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That is such a good way to put it. It's like, "Man, we really don't wanna be around this guy, he's kind of a douchebag, but like how else are we gonna get these spreadsheets done?"
Em Schulz: Exactly. So that's how these cats are just prevailing after era after era after era. It's like people...
Christine Schiefer: Understood.
Em Schulz: It's like that Miley Cyrus quote when she's like, "These motherfuckers are trying to kill me, but I'm back, I'm back." And so they...
Christine Schiefer: It's just like that.
Em Schulz: Hate black cats, every single one, hate fucking black cats. But they're still hanging out in your church, pope.
Christine Schiefer: They need them. They need them.
Em Schulz: Exactly. So uh, there are rumors that the pope even launched an inquisition into cats, like against cats.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for God's sake.
Em Schulz: Um, and he led Catholic followers to start killing cats en masse throughout Europe.
Christine Schiefer: Oh! No, that's not cool, man.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: That's really not cool.
Em Schulz: So lucky for us, the truth is kind of unknown on this. It's like speculative that that happened.
Christine Schiefer: Good.
Em Schulz: But in the 1200s, the leader of the Catholic church did take an anti-cat stance, whether or not he also ordered people to kill them. Um, so no matter what, cats were hated. This was a rough time to be a cat.
Christine Schiefer: Geez.
Em Schulz: Um, after this, cats started showing up more and more as symbols of blasphemy, symbols of sacrilege. And it got to where a bunch of Christian sects, if they were trying to separate from the Catholic church, they were accused of worshipping cats, not worshiping the devil or pagan idols, but worshipping cats. Um, so if they're like, "I don't wanna be Catholic anymore," "Oh, you're a cat worshipper."
Christine Schiefer: Ha ha, loser. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Meow. Meow.
Christine Schiefer: Meow. Yeah. You know they were taunted. [laughter] That's so evil.
Em Schulz: So um, more rumors led to the belief that devil worshippers allowed cats to even participate in their rituals with humans.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So now cats are becoming like, I guess anthropomorphic, like they know how to like perform rituals with human beings, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like it's like they've... Even though they were trying to vilify cats, they've now turned them into like these larger-than-life like...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Characters that have like all this agency and control and it's like, "I think you're kind of doing the opposite of what you are originally intending to do. You've made them a lot more powerful in people's eyes."
Em Schulz: Yeah, you've accidentally um, shot them to stardom, I'm afraid.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Like it's kind of weird. I'm like, what were you thinking was gonna happen? Whatever.
Em Schulz: Well, so it was, it was still a way to um, scare a lot of people in the Catholic church because since cats were able to participate in rituals, they were seen as equals where this was an insult to the Christian belief that humans are above all animals. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay, I see.
Em Schulz: So it's like, "Oh, if they can do these things, they must be unnatural."
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay, okay, okay.
Em Schulz: So soon cats start popping up in accusations against witches all over Europe.
Christine Schiefer: A-ha.
Em Schulz: Um, and there was actually... Just one example of this in 1324, there's a woman named Alice and she was accused by her own step-kids who were hungry for her money. They accused her of witchcraft. They said that she was using magic to seduce and kill her husbands, including their own father.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And one accusation against her was that the only way she became a witch was that she was having sex with a demon to gain power, um, and the demon appeared as a black cat and she would even have sex with the demon in the form of a cat.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Come on. Okay. So now they're turning it into bestiality shit. Great.
Em Schulz: Exactly. And so... And which is another like gross misconception of like the occult or, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Satanists is like, "Oh well, they're just having sex with animals," or something.
Christine Schiefer: That's horrible.
Em Schulz: So this is one of the first times we see an accusation like that. So it was incredibly outrageous then, but unfortunately as more witch trials happened, this became a more common accusation.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, luckily, Alice fled town before she was tried, but this accusation actually helped black cats, in a bad way, have solid footing in legal proceedings and being deemed as actually evil um, that courts were taking this seriously.
Christine Schiefer: The crazy part I think about too, is like they have... Like if you really think about it, they have no idea what the fuck is going on. Like they have no idea.
Em Schulz: Isn't that crazy?
Christine Schiefer: Like we're saying... Like back then, they were all saying, "Oh they're, they have all these nefarious plans," and they're literally in their head are just like, "Meow, meow, meow, meow." Like they have literally no idea what's going on, which is crazy.
Em Schulz: "I want chicken. I want liver." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, literally. [laughter] "Meow Mix, Meow Mix, please deliver." And they're like, "Oh, they are the spawn of the devil." It's just so weird. Like they, they had no fucking clue what was happening.
Em Schulz: No. They just had little fuzzy tummies and paws and they were just... Maybe they... If they ever saw a fish in their life, it would be a good day.
Christine Schiefer: They were like, "Oh, a mouse." Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: These poor cats.
Em Schulz: But like also like... Yeah, it's, it's just... It's wild that they could have no concept of what you believe it is...
Christine Schiefer: No concept.
Em Schulz: And that they are perceived globally as this, apparently.
Christine Schiefer: They're part of a court trial, they're like, "What's a court trial?"
Em Schulz: It's like explaining taxes to an ant. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Explain...
Christine Schiefer: It's like, "You're part of my tax deduction." It's like, "What are you talking about?"
Em Schulz: Explain religion and witchcraft in court trials and you're at the forefront of this.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's just so absurd to think about. It's absurd.
Em Schulz: Ugh. These poor things. And so I wonder if that was also part of like the power dynamic, right, of like, "Oh well, we can keep blaming these things that we don't have to go back for."
Christine Schiefer: True. Like what are they gonna do? Yeah. They can't argue back.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, over time, witchcraft and sorcery evolved into the public legal issue it became and court started interrogating accused witches of conspiring with cats. And so this evolved again where cats weren't direct incarnations of Satan, but they were witches' familiars and that to conspire with black cats, you were conspiring with a middleman to Satan.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, which is interesting 'cause I feel like the flip side, like they'd start as a middleman and be, and evolved into the devil himself...
Christine Schiefer: You'd think so.
Em Schulz: Whatever. Things are surprising. So...
Christine Schiefer: None of this makes much sense, so I don't know why I'm trying to find logic here.
Em Schulz: So soon black cats were said to help witches in all sorts of ways, now that they were seen as their familiars. They were known as maybe not performing witchcraft themselves, but being um, uh, some sort of helpmate for witchcraft. So they were running witches' errands like getting ingredients for spells or taking messages to the devil or bewitching your enemies and... Witches at one point were even said to ride cats like brooms...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, which like is the most bizarre thing to be. Like I can't imagine sitting on a cat and the cat taking off at flight.
Christine Schiefer: I can't even... Like Gio's probably four times heavier than all my cats. I could never even sit on Gio and get any like... Like he would collapse...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: All of his arms, all of his arms would splat out in different directions.
Christine Schiefer: He would just be a splat on the ground. So I don't understand what type of logic that is, but whatever.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Unless by cat, they mean like a lion.
Christine Schiefer: Jungle cat. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like... [laughter] But yeah, so that was apparently a theory at one point. But I guess that's the magic of it, that it applies physics, right?
Christine Schiefer: I suppose so.
Em Schulz: So in several trials, kids, but you know how kids were always like coerced into saying things when they're under duress?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I hate that shit.
Em Schulz: They would say that um, cats were sent to them by witches in town, which I guess like that, that makes me feel sad 'cause maybe that's a kid trying not to blame an adult and they're trying to blame a random cat.
Christine Schiefer: Aww. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But they were saying, "Oh, a cat was sent to me by a witch and the cat made me sick, so the witch is poisoning me in some way."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I see.
Em Schulz: And some of the, some of the sick kids reported that cats would be in the room with them even when others couldn't see them. So this could've been mental illness, this could've been coersion, we don't know. Um, but they would say that there were cats all around them. How could nobody else see them? And they'd say that the cat would keep them awake all night, so it would keep them from getting better from when they got sick, or the cat would bite them and scratch them or like straight up speak to them and like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Um, other witnesses claimed that they did see cat-shaped things moving under their blankets, but if they pulled the blanket back, there was never a cat.
Christine Schiefer: Eww!
Em Schulz: So you know, take that with a very large grain of salt.
Christine Schiefer: I will.
Em Schulz: And black cats became a prominent symbol of the local witch and local witches were even rumored to be feeding cats her own blood or even breastmilk just so they were connected in some way. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: Crazy. Like so cats are also vampires?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They're like trying to find any ridiculous thing to get people riled up.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I feel like I'm just listing random accusations from witchcraft at this point.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and this is where we have heard of the phrase before of like, "Witch's marks were basically if you have any fucking blemish, they would use that as an excuse that you're a witch. They said that these witch marks were special nipples to feed their familiars. So...
Christine Schiefer: For fuck's sake.
Em Schulz: If you had a birthmark, apparently your cat was suckling from it to...
Christine Schiefer: God damn it. That's so weird.
Em Schulz: To have your blood in them. Ugh.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: In the 1700s to the 1800s, this is when owning a cat as a pet starts to be seen as a good exercise. And that's because...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: This is in like royal England, that like they're... Even though it seemed as negative and there's witch trials going on, they saw um, owning a pet in general as a good way to teach responsibility to kids and all this stuff. But because cats still had this negative thing going on and they weren't portrayed very well, well, a lot of times, that's why you'll see that old English people had dogs as pets, because dogs didn't have the association with evil.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. That was more acceptable. Right.
Em Schulz: So in the 17, 1800s, it was mainly dogs. They actually even said that dogs represented the English because they were loyal and brave and steadfast. And...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And England thought that dogs best represented them, but cats were still associated with like rodents and witches. So um... So don't get a cat. Um, but now, let's deep dive, this is still in England and this is in the late 1800s where we see a shift because there's... This is uh, a bit of a deep dive, but this was where I thought like, "Should I add this to my notes?"
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And then I thought, "I should."
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: In the 1860s, people are still getting mainly dogs. They're not really into cats. There's this one guy who fucking loves cats.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: He fucking doesn't care. He loves cats. His name is Harrison Weir.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And he organized the very first cat show.
Christine Schiefer: What? [laughter]
Em Schulz: He loved cats before anyone else. He wanted to prove to England how wonderful cats were...
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: By displaying them for the world. And he called cats, this is two quotes in one, he called cats "possibly the most perfect and certainly the most domestic of animals and an object of increasing interest, admiration and uncultured beauty". And then...
Christine Schiefer: Woah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: In comparison to dogs, he said, "cats can un-latch doors or even knock with their paws for admittance. They catch rats and mice. They are full of sense. The dog is generally useless and the cat, a pet or not, is of service".
Christine Schiefer: The dog is useless. I'm sure people will love that.
Em Schulz: Which like... Yeah, especially like, "Fuck you, England. We're like, we've been keeping dogs for almost 200 years."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh, your animal that you associate with? What a loser.
Em Schulz: Exactly. So he hosts his very first show in London at the Crystal Palace, but there was such little interest 'cause nobody fucking like cats, that he had to... He realized that the Crystal Palace where he was gonna host the cat show...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: There... One of the ways that they kept rats low in the palace was because they had all these fucking stray cats everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: So he hired workmen to catch the strays and enter them into the competition because he didn't have real entrants for his show 'cause... How do you have a cat show where nobody's gonna bring in a cat because nobody owned a cat 'cause nobody likes cats? So he literally just got a bunch of...
Christine Schiefer: That you're trying to prove that you... That cats are great. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So he just got a bunch of fucking stray cats and put them in his cat show.
Christine Schiefer: Stop it. Stop it right now. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And the show ended up being a success and cats became more welcome in the eyes of the public. And they actually...
Christine Schiefer: What was the show? Like was it like feats of strength? Was it like...
Em Schulz: It was like a, like a, like a, like a dog show today where it's like they like, based on their...
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Jump through hoops?
Em Schulz: Their... No, not like uh a event. I think it was like a, like a, basically a pretty competition. Like I think it was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so it's just like to show them.
Em Schulz: To show them truly like, "Here's a bunch of cats sitting in cages."
Christine Schiefer: Right. Great.
Em Schulz: Although, I wonder because there is one cat named Fulmer, and he was a champion show cat who ended up earning 150 prizes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he was.
Em Schulz: So I don't know what the hell Fulmer did besides like take a nap in his cage, but...
Christine Schiefer: Fulmer.
Em Schulz: Um, so anyway, the... He... It ended up working out really well. People liked cats by the end. And this actually did almost like a 180 in England because cats went from being like gross pest control and linked with witchcraft to being, I guess because it was like a cat show, it became... Cats became associated with like the upper class and they became connected to like upper class snobbery. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my.
Em Schulz: If you're wondering when people think that cats to this day are very like snooty, it might go all the way back to the 1860s first cat show. Um...
Christine Schiefer: This is bananas.
Em Schulz: So it... This helped them become more of a common pet because now even the upper class wanted in on this. And in 1887, only like 10 years later, Harrison Weir also founded the National Cat Club.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter]
Em Schulz: And the next cat show he hosted went from having barely any entrance and had, having to use strays, to having over 300 cats be entered into this competition.
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up. That's hilarious. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And the Lady's Realm magazine, they made uh, an article... They wrote an article about Harrison Weir, saying that he had, quote, "Done wonders for the amelioration of pussy".
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And for that he deserves a round...
Em Schulz: There's my deep dive.
Christine Schiefer: Of applause. [laughter]
Em Schulz: There's my deep dive. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: So as of the 1900s, cats were in with England. But a few years before that, you know, there, the colonies in the US are being created and this is at the time when cats were still seen as associated with witches, black cats are evil. Um, and so...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: When we get to the colonies in the US, the witch trials become, um, you know, even when they become a thing of the past, the folklore of black cats has remained after all those times. So, um, so buh, buh, buh, buh. Okay. So we're in the US now. So in Southern and Appalachian lore, now that the, you know, the stories of black cats have come over to the US, there's now lore talking about black cats appearing as familiars for devils and witches and malicious spirits. Black cats have also become associated with crossroads folklore.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and that's where people go to do rituals. And so people thought, "Oh, if you're at a crossroad, cats could be there." Uh, this is also possibly due to the association between cats and Hecate because she's also a deity linked to crossroads. And today, there are a number of superstitions about black cats still being, maybe not evil, but still bringing an omen to you or bad luck. So that's where we are in today's world where people say that a black cat crossing your path brings you bad luck.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, this could also be rooted in the belief that cats are synonymous with intersections with crossroads. So that's why they cross your path.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I never thought about that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and it could mean that the witch or the devil himself is passing by you. And now we think of the cat, the black cat itself as the cause of trouble instead of it being a devil. We just think the cat is inherently unlucky.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: It's also said that black cats, if they gather around a house, uh, that's, uh... Oh no. It's said that black cats will gather around a house when there's a dead body inside like vultures, which is...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Eerie. Um, an Appalachian superstition says that if a cat licks its fur backwards, trouble is on the way.
Christine Schiefer: Licks its fur backwards. Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: So, so licking it down, licking it the other direction.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, if a strange black cat looks through your window, the entire house will have bad luck.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If, if a black cat wanders through the door of a wake, another family member will soon die.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: I will say, if I was at a wake and I saw a black cat, I would get a little heebie-jeebies out of that.
Christine Schiefer: I'd be out of there. I'd be like, "Who invited this guy?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'd be like, "Go home." Um, black cats will climb into baby's cribs and steal their breath while they sleep and...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That's a rumor though. You're not... You're saying that's just a...
Em Schulz: No. Obviously, obviously, that's a rumor.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay, okay. I'm just making sure.
Em Schulz: Um, that's one of the superstitions that if you have a baby...
Christine Schiefer: I see, I see.
Em Schulz: To not let a black cat get near them 'cause they'll climb into the crib and steal their sleep.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I hear... I heard that when I was pregnant.
Em Schulz: This... Yeah. It's actually an old explanation for SIDS. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Em Schulz: Um, due to their association with witches, black cats are strongly linked obviously to modern day Halloween, and seeing a black cat on Halloween is said to be especially bad luck. Um, I don't know if you remember this, but I had a black cat in the early 2000s. Um, shoutout, Rocky. Um, in the 2000s, there was a rumor that kind of went everywhere, I thought this was, this predated the 2000, but I guess this was, was just of our era, that on Halloween, people would try to attack black cats.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, I remember that. 'Cause we also had...
Em Schulz: And I remember...
Christine Schiefer: We had two black cats, Shadow and Smokey at that time.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And they were outdoor cats, so we were like, "Uh-oh."
Em Schulz: Exactly. So there were PSAs about bringing your cat inside on Halloween because...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: People would try to kill cats to avoid the bad luck.
Christine Schiefer: Was that actually true or not really?
Em Schulz: I think it was just a rumor. I'm sure there was some asshole who tried, but you know...
Christine Schiefer: Sure, just to...
Em Schulz: I think that was a rumor.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, but that was... It was like, to prevent bad luck, you kill a black cat. But the other rumor is that if you kill a black cat, that cat will curse you, uh, maybe with jail time. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. I was like, I'll fucking curse you if you kill a black cat...
Em Schulz: The legal system will curse you.
Christine Schiefer: Happily.
Em Schulz: Despite their negative association, some say that black cats are actually the total opposite and bring you good luck. There's another Appalachian legend that if you gently tug on a black cat's tail, it brings good luck. Um, Vikings... So try that with Moonshine and tell me how it goes.
Christine Schiefer: Sure they love that. I love... I'm sure they love that theory.
Em Schulz: Vikings even kept cats on their ships for good luck. And an old Irish remedy for sore eyes, get ready Christine, do this with Moonshine...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Dip a black cat's tail in cream, eye cream...
Christine Schiefer: Eww.
Em Schulz: Rub the tail on your eyes three times in a circular motion chanting, "May I be cured." You know what you could also do?
Christine Schiefer: This is for dry eyes?
Em Schulz: For dry eyes, it's eye cream...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's like, well, it's fucking eye cream. Just rub that on your eyes. You don't need the black cat's tail.
Christine Schiefer: Are you's not like cream? Like cream-cream?
Em Schulz: I think it's eye cream.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Either way, cream, I imagine... It's like it's... I feel like you're doing something to your... I don't think the black cat's tail is specifically doing anything.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think either one. I think you're just getting cat hair in your eyes and it's watering them up and now they feel like they're tearing up.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And they're puffing up. Yeah. And then they're...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Maybe you have an allergy. I, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Well, so there's... Give that a shot and let me know. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I won't, but thanks.
Em Schulz: Another Appalachian tradition is to rub a cat's tail on your eyelid to get rid of a sty. I would argue that causes a sty.
Christine Schiefer: Let's not do that either, guys. Let's not.
Em Schulz: And then, um, there's also folklore that says that black cats can predict weather. And if, um... There's one Irish, uh, rumor that if cats are scratching on a chair or sitting with their back to a fire, rain is to come.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh.
Em Schulz: If a black cat walks into your house... We're almost done, I swear. If a black cat walks into your house through the front door, it brings good luck to your entire home. But now I'm confused if it walks through the front door, but if it crosses your path, is it a net positive? What's going on?
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Does it cancel itself out? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, many occultists today have older opinions on black cats and still associate them with protectors of bad spirits. And thus, the black cat as a witch's familiar is, you know, still at play a lot of times.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And today, I wanna see if you can guess, but today, the top three countries with the most cat owners are...
Christine Schiefer: Top three countries. Like, okay, the US?
Em Schulz: The US is number three with 43% of households having a cat.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Um, who has a cat?
Em Schulz: [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Uh... Sweden.
Em Schulz: No. It's, it's... Number one is Russia with 59% of households, and Ukraine with 49% of households.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. I would not have guessed Russia or Ukraine. So there you go.
Em Schulz: So we come in third. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Alright.
Em Schulz: And then the last thing I'm gonna say, this is my last fun fact, and it is a quote from The Collector. Um...
Christine Schiefer: What? The what? The Collector?
Em Schulz: The Collector. It's a website.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. That sounds very scary. The Collector.
Em Schulz: It does. The cat sounds like...
Christine Schiefer: Sounds like a...
Em Schulz: It could be a collector of souls or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It sounds like a Criminal Minds character villain, you know.
Em Schulz: No, no, no. This is just an article on the history of black cats or cats in general, I guess. But this is what they had to say.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: "The British government offices are old and built in an area where there has always been problems with rodent infestations. Since the early 16th century, a cat has always been employed by the government to deal with the problem. Today, the current holder of the title of Chief Mouser to the Cabinet Office is Larry, who has held the position since 2011 and has served through the three administrations of prime ministers.
Christine Schiefer: I love him.
Em Schulz: So shoutout to Larry for doing...
Christine Schiefer: Or Lawrence, if you're feeling a little more posh.
Em Schulz: Chief Lawrence the Mouser to the Cabinet Office, that's...
Christine Schiefer: The Mouser! Okay, I'm sorry to scream, but that's delightful, really delightful.
Em Schulz: So anyway, that is, uh, that's the last thing I have to say about it, but that is the 101 to black cat lore.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em, you did such a good job.
Em Schulz: Thank you.
Christine Schiefer: I never even thought about that as a topic. It's so good.
Em Schulz: I thought, you know, that was a good...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I love it.
Em Schulz: Pre-Halloween situation, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Question, did you know anybody growing up who like truly believed in... Who was like anti-black cat? Like I'm curious if you had someone in your life who was like very anti-black cat.
Em Schulz: I think I always heard about it as like a, like it was always understood to be a wives' tale.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well...
Em Schulz: Why? Did you?
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause my... Yeah. My stepmother was so, so against black cats...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Not in a jokey way, not in like a, "Oh, I'm, I'm just superstitious," like she genuinely believed that they would do harm if they were in her vicinity.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah. So when we had two black cats, she would park at the end of the street and we'd have to walk home because she was like... I'm not even shitting you. And uh, I'm talking... Sorry. The cats were not at her house. The cats were at my mom's house. But when she dropped us off at our mom's house, like when she found out we got a black cat, she parked at the bottom of the hill and we had to walk up because she was like, "I'm not letting the cat cross my path." And we were like...
Em Schulz: That's wild. You know...
Christine Schiefer: "That's not real. And it's a kitten and it's like six months old. It's fine." And she was like, "I won't. I won't." So we were like, "Okay."
Em Schulz: I don't think I had anything like that with black cats. But I do actually know quite a few people who are actually still to this day terrified to walk under a ladder.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Oh, she... Yeah. And she... I will say she was... It wasn't just, uh, preserved for black cats. It was every possible, uh, superstition. Salt, like I was taught how to throw salt over my shoulder at a very young age, um, the, the ladders, Friday the 13th, doesn't leave the house, like all of it, like hardcore. Um...
Em Schulz: You know, it's interesting to me the... We've already covered the number 13 before, but it... I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It is wild how like a superstition can be, can prevail so much so like to this day, like elevators don't have a 13th floor...
Christine Schiefer: No, yeah.
Em Schulz: Hotels won't have a 13th floor like...
Christine Schiefer: And it like dictates a lot of her life. Like, no kidding. I mean, even like the, uh, sidewalk cracks, like every little thing that you've heard as being like a potential superstition is something she takes like... You know how sometimes you're like, "Oh, knock on wood, just in case"? Like for her, it's a very, very, very real thing...
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Like it's based in reality. So...
Em Schulz: It sounds like a, like a, like a OCD thing too, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, as somebody with OCD now, like, or you know, who's been finally diagnosed and understands what that is, I look at it and I'm like, "Huh," you know. But you know, I'm no, I'm no doctor, but, uh, it does have similar vibes... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: To that. So I agree with you. Um, but I don't know. It's, uh, it's just something that used to drive me crazy 'cause I would have to take my backpack in my school uniform and walk up, you know, up that...
Em Schulz: That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: Steep-ass hill just 'cause she didn't wanna...
Em Schulz: That is a steep-ass hill. Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it is... Right. That's true. You've seen it. It's a steep-ass fucking hill. Um...
Em Schulz: I mean, also you were living in a cemetery like Wednesday Addams. Imagine if like a black cat happened to also be, you know...
Christine Schiefer: I have some hilarious...
Em Schulz: In your cemetery.
Christine Schiefer: Pictures of the black, of our black cats, uh, sitting in the cemetery because people would go in there and see the black cats and you could hear them from our... If I had my window open, you could hear people being like, "[gasp] Oh my God, a black cat in the cemetery." And I'm like, "Shadow... " Like, we've been trying to train him not to go in the cemetery, but he, they would just sit on the gravestones and I'm like, "You two know what you're doing." [laughter]
Em Schulz: "You were always such an aesthetic. You're just like uh, a walking vibe."
Christine Schiefer: I just feel like they knew what they were doing. They were like, "We know we're causing a ruckus in this neighborhood."
Em Schulz: They were like, "We'll get 'em. We'll get 'em. Don't worry."
Christine Schiefer: "We'll get 'em this time." Yeah. Um, I thought it was hilarious. Some people, not so much. But I love black cats.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I will say...
Christine Schiefer: You know what's funny? Sorry. I was just gonna say, I love black cats, but like my white... So I have a very white cat, very black cat. My white cat is definitely the more like scary one. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Juniper's terrifying. Moonshine is...
Christine Schiefer: He's the more intense...
Em Schulz: Precious.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Moon... Like if anyone's gonna be the devil himself, it's definitely Juniper, not Moonshine.
Em Schulz: I was actually on, um... Before people freak out, no, I, I'm not actually serious about it, but I was bored last night and for like chuckles, I was on Petfinder, 'cause I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, we all do that. Yeah, don't worry.
Em Schulz: It's like Zillow, but pets. So I was like...
Christine Schiefer: It is.
Em Schulz: I was like, "Um, let me just see if I were to adopt a pet right now, which one would I adopt?"
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, and I've always thought... I mean, black cats are my number one favorite, and I also really like the black and gray striped ones, like the really tight stripes, so...
Christine Schiefer: Cute. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: I think they're so cute. Um, but white cats, I don't like them. I have a weird visceral reaction to them. And Juniper really confirms it for me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: But, you know what is his redeeming quality is the different colored eyes.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. See, that cracks me up about him. He has those blue and green eyes.
Em Schulz: That's... There's something about it where I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm intrigued, but from a distance. But like white cats and I seemingly have never gotten along very well, so...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, that cracks me up because also the... All we know about Juniper, 'cause he was, uh, a stray, but he was born to, um, a black and white like tuxedo cat, and then the mom was a Turkish Angora. And so I looked up Turkish Angora and 'cause they're, they have that double eye color thing and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They're described as the Turkish prince cat breed.
Em Schulz: Huh. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like...
Em Schulz: Ain't that the truth?
Christine Schiefer: Well, that kinda, that fits perfectly well. It's a very like Lady and the Tramp situation because the, the other cat was just like a black and white street cat, and then, and the mom was like a princess, you know. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What was their kid's name? Scamp. Lady and the Tramp, their son was named Scamp.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Em Schulz: So I guess Juniper is the Scamp of the household.
Christine Schiefer: Although he's the opposite of the... He's like the other, other sibling who's like, "No, I'm more like mom." [laughter]
Em Schulz: Right. Okay, got it, got it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, but anyway, I love my, my kitty cats. Well, good job, Em. That was really good.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Thank you. Now I'm ready...
Christine Schiefer: I didn't know any of that.
Em Schulz: I'm ready to be bummed out.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I feel like I fucked up 'cause I did not bring like a Halloween-y episode. 'Cause next episode is Halloween episode. So I was like, "I'm gonna go all-out for the Halloween episode." This one, um, is horribly upsetting.
Em Schulz: Well, do what you do best, Christine...
Christine Schiefer: He-he-he-he-he-he
Em Schulz: And tell us all about it.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. Um, I'm... I don't know if you can tell, my palms are already drenched in sweat 'cause I'm nervous. Um, okay. So this is the story of Heather Mayer. And, uh, just a little note here uh, this case is still active. It's relatively recent.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, a lot of this, uh, information comes from one particular source which is a, uh, thorough investigative journalism piece by Andy Mannix and that was published in the Star Tribune this year. It was... It... It's one of those pieces where I'm like, "Oh, I'll just skim it," but then I end up like really invested and read the whole thing, look through all the photos and the... It, it's a really well done piece. So if you're interested in that, go check it out. Uh, Andy Mannix interviewed people involved in the case, pored over official reports and listened to recorded police interviews to put together this story. And because the case is open...
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: There's not really any like Dateline on it yet, or like any, um, you know, contemporary TV shows that have covered it. So it's like a relatively new case.
Em Schulz: That's very, um, unlike you. 'Cause I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I know. I feel like usually...
Em Schulz: Characteristically, you usually wait until you've got the answer at the end, or a lot of people have covered it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And I'm thinking about... I think, I think this is one that Saoirse reached out to me, our researcher, and was like, "Hey, what do you think about this one?" 'Cause like a lot of times I'll say, "Oh, here are the ones I wanna cover soon. Like, let's start researching." But I think this one Saoirse was like, "Hey, I just like... My, my, uh... It just caught my eye, you know?" And I was like, "Go for it."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so I was really new to the case as well. Uh, and then Saoirse also wrote another note here saying, I want to call attention to the use of the word victim in this story, because, uh, you know, as we're discussing the word "spooky" and all the, you know, the meaning of words, um, you know, I'm not gonna say... I'm not gonna come in so hot like we did last time. Uh, but I'm gonna say, you know, this is something I didn't really think about, but I guess it's just important to think about our words. You know, like think, think about language.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Even if we're, we continue using it and stuff, it's always nice to kind of know where it comes from, know what it, its intended meaning is. And um, apparently, there are, uh, several people within the story who prefer to be called survivors instead of victims, which I think is an...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: A fair, you know... But you know, there are people in the story who did not survive. And so for that we would use the word victim in this case. But we're trying to use it as sensitively as possible. It's just, um, you know, it's just another word to kind of think about, especially in the true crime space, I feel like these words are so loaded. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so just something to think about. In any case, this is the story of Heather Mayer. I want to... And I don't often do this, but I wanna give a massive trigger warning for domestic violence, sexual violence, um... It's really fucked up. I'm so sorry, you guys. It's really fucked up. Ready?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry, Em.
Em Schulz: As the mouthpiece for everybody, yep. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sorry. Okay, here we go.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: So Heather Mayer grew up in Nerstrand, Minnesota, which is a rural and quiet town with a population of just 273 as of the 2020 census. And Heather's mother, Tracy Dettling, was unfortunately already experiencing a very difficult life, just... It... One of those like, um, what was the phrase we accidentally used uh, when we were trying to describe [laughter] that book where we were like, "Bad things happening only," uh, by Lemony Snicket. Yeah, A Series of Unfortunate Events.
Em Schulz: Oh, A Series of... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It felt like that was already Tracy's, Heather's mother's experience because her first child, Lucas died of SIDS as a baby, then her daughter at age 19 was in a terrible car accident and she became quadriplegic with life-long cognitive disabilities, just like freak accidents, both, both of them so far.
Em Schulz: Wow. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And so then there was Heather, and Heather grew up, despite all this trauma within her family, like pretty, quote unquote, "normally" for kids her age in this town. She went to local church and football games. She played outside, spent long weekends at a cabin exploring and having fun, loved to read, especially romance novels, was very witty, creative, had a really fun sense of humor, loved to make people laugh. But she was also struggling pretty deeply because, I mean, these things seemed to come in three's, Heather, Tracy's third daughter, third child, I'm sorry, uh, was raped as a teenager by two men who gave her a ride home and refused to let her out of the car until she gave into their demands.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: And so this sent her in a life-long like kind of anxiety spiral and just contributed to a lot of mental health issues. She had mostly disabling anxiety that basically made it impossible for her to function throughout the day.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and it was, I mean, debilitating, you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And that was starting at age 16. So she really struggled. She dropped out of high school. She started sneaking out and was, you know, having sex with people. And this was kind of a coping mechanism, you know, for trying to gain control back after being...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Sexually assaulted. She did eventually get her GAD, but even work, you know, as an, as an adult was difficult, uh, with the intense anxiety she had. She had a kindhearted and protective nature. And just as an example of that, when she was 17, she met a teenage boy who lived under a local bridge and she really wanted to help him. And so as she was trying to help him get back on his feet, they actually ended up in a romantic relationship in which Heather became pregnant and the two of them got married. So Heather gave birth to their first son, and then two more boys in the following year.
Christine Schiefer: So they had three kids together. But unfortunately, you know, her marriage to their father didn't last and by age 25, she was a single mother with these three kids. What Heather was seeking this whole time was some sense of community, like a place to belong somewhere where she felt like understood and safe and she found that place in the BDSM scene.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: So, BDSM, uh, for those who don't know, stands for bondage and discipline, dominance and submission, sadism and masochism. And you know, I think a lot of us nowadays are much more aware of how, uh, how the kind of bad rep it got over the years is not quite...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Correct. Uh...
Em Schulz: No, it's not. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Misunderstood. Do you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Very misunderstood, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Um, you and I have talked about this just as like as a concept, you know. Um, and I feel like people kind of have, sometimes get the wrong idea about that community. And so it may be surprising for some of you, but you know, we're all learning to find out that there is actually a thriving global community surrounding BDSM. Um, but to those who are involved in it, like that's the norm. It makes perfect sense because people who engage in BDSM, very strict rules and regulations to keep it safe for the people involved, um, very structured, very welcoming place, uh, unlike what you might hear, you know, on TV or in the media.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So people who engage in BDSM often describe it as an exchange of power where one partner consents to submit to another partner who consents to dominate. So you got like a dom relationship, sub, sub relationship. When executed correctly, it's a healthy consensual relationship that gives people in either role a strong sense of control over their own bodies and lives and that's what's so appealing to so many people. BDSM activities are called "scenes" because participants agree beforehand on what they will do as if sort of following a script that's been set in advance.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's very...
Christine Schiefer: They use script...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say it's also... I know it's very, very heavily based in communication and trust.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So like, there's no...
Christine Schiefer: Communication. That's a big one. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Yeah. There's, you know, there's... You're not going into things without... I'm talking about it like I'm part of this community. I, I, I have friends though. [laughter] So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: I've asked just about every question. Um, but yeah, it's, it's a very, um... It's a... You... If you're, if you're not completely transparent from the beginning and you're not with a partner you trust, it's, it's not happening.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. You need to be really onboard with being, uh, with following the rules to make sure everyone feels safe and, uh, has uh, uh, a good experience. It's... It just can get twisted and abused by the wrong people, as we will see in this story, unfortunately. So BDSM activities, they're called scenes because it's sort of like a scripted situation. They use strict boundaries, open communication and safe words to ensure the safety of everyone involved and like the comfort of everyone involved as well. Many people who participate are actually survivors of past sexual violence and other abuse and they feel that BDSM allows them to reclaim control over their bodies and work through their trauma among like-minded people with shared experiences. And just to clarify, that's not to say everyone who is, you know, in the BDSM community is doing it because they were, uh, you know, uh, sexually assaulted.
Christine Schiefer: That's not at all what I'm saying. But there are definitely some people who find it a very cathartic and healing way to deal with past trauma like that. And that is where Heather comes in, because that is how Heather felt. She was like, "You know what, this is a great place for me to feel like I'm in control of my sexuality and body after being, you know, brutally assaulted all those years ago."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Research has found that not only are people in the BDSM community no more likely to experience relationship issues or trauma than the general population, but in many cases, they're actually happier and more fulfilled, which is interesting.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: And according to Dr. Filippo M. Nimbi, a researcher of clinical psychology and sex, quote, "People engaging in BDSM are usually people who have thought a lot about their sexuality. They have explored and faced their sexual boundaries. Basically, they know what they like and they do it. This is a positive outcome on their sexual experiences and on the overall quality of their lives." So, BDSM is often an extremely social activity with multiple participants. Some are engaging in the acts with one another, others are watching. Uh, but the community is highly self-policing with widely agreed upon rules, and you have to agree to those rules before you join. Heather played a vital part in her community. She was a moderator for an online BDSM group with hundreds of members who also got together in person for casual meetups and parties. And basically, Heather's job was to vet new members and keep out those people who are predators and were just trying to use BDSM to veil abusive behaviors and violate people's consent.
Em Schulz: Oh, good for her.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That was her main, uh, task as part of this group.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that's great.
Christine Schiefer: Many people relied on Heather and admired her dedication to protecting their safety, protecting their community, but unfortunately, even the most informed, self-assured people can of course, become victims of abuse. Um, although some people, sure, uh, are more vulnerable to abuse due to social and socioeconomic factors, mental health factors, what have you, abuse as we know, can happen to anyone. So, Heather, this is where the asshole comes into the picture...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: She begins a relationship with a, with a man named Ehsan Karam, who identified as a dom or a dominant. Ehsan grew up in the Twin Cities and he got into martial arts at a young age to defend himself against frequent bullying. As part of this journey, he became a professional MMA, mixed martial arts fighter, but he retired early due to an injury. And that's when he began working as a security guard in St. Paul, and also joined the local BDSM scene and became an active member. So Ehsan was 36 years old and he was already living with a 24-year-old woman named Bella Bree when he started seeing Heather for the second time. That's because he had actually dated Heather many years before, very casually. So fast-forward, they reconnect. He's already living with a young woman named Bella. And Bella was a student at the University of Minnesota, but she had to drop out for medical reasons because she was undergoing several back surgeries.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So she was struggling to get back on her feet, literally and metaphorically. And she was about to lose her apartment when she met Ehsan on Tinder. And it felt like, like fate, right? Like...
Em Schulz: Oh, gosh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Let's just, uh, throw out the term that I'm gonna talk about in a moment called love bombing. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Ehsan immediately began to shower Bella with gifts and affection. This is oftentimes an abuse tactic within the dynamic of an abusive relationship uh, often a manipulation tactic used to make someone dependent on the abuser or, or almost give the abuser control, make the other person feel safe and taken care of before things turn in a darker direction. Before long, Ehsan asked Bella to move in with him because she was struggling to keep her own living situation together and she happily agreed. They got married in March of 2018, which was only seven months after they met. And once they got married, Ehsan had Bella sign a submission contract.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So yeah, this submission contract named Ehsan as Bella's owner. Uh...
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: He would dictate when she slept, when she woke up, her exercise routine, when she was allowed to eat, and when she was required to have sex with him. Failure to comply with the contract resulted in physical punishment. So...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently such contracts are not uncommon in the BDSM scene, but Ehsan took things beyond consensual, which is where it becomes not part of the BDSM scene.
Em Schulz: Right. I'm all...
Christine Schiefer: Because consent is a huge part of BDSM.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I'm all like... I'm, I'm down with people signing contracts and, you know, BDSM and all, I just... I... You already said the asshole. I already...
Christine Schiefer: You know what's coming, right? Like we know what's coming.
Em Schulz: So I'm, I'm primed to hate this. Yeah. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I've already told you it's an abusive relationship, so saying like he controls when she has sex with him is the biggest red flag we've ever heard. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So just the fact that this is not about a consensual dynamic, it's about an agreement for him to control every aspect of her life without her consent is worth...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, immediately, obviously...
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's not about BDSM anymore. He just wants control of a person.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, correct. So he often had other women staying in the house under false pretenses as well. Uh, there was one woman who moved in named Morgan and he told, even though he's married to Bella at this point, he told Morgan that Bella was an ex-girlfriend who was just staying in his house because her mom died recently. And since he was Bella's owner, he demanded, he ordered Bella to go along with this story and pretend to openly mourn her mother who was, by the way, still alive, for weeks as part of like this weird story he was telling women to like get them to stay in his house. So...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Essentially, he now has a second woman living there under the pretense that, "Oh, Bella is just an ex-girlfriend and her mom died recently. Look how sad she is." So, yikes. Eventually, Ehsan and Heather reconnect and they start seeing each other again. And Heather began staying over several nights a week before moving into the house as well as the third woman under the roof in autumn of 2018. Heather and Bella became friends, and Heather would go out of her way to make Bella smile, like surprising her at work with a picnic they shared, sitting on the hood of their car. And before long, Ehsan of course, started abusing all three women under the pretense of BDSM relationships.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: This is where things get very dark, folks. He started beating them violently, beyond anything they'd consented to with objects they never approved of, including metal pipes.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Sometimes Heather's and Morgan's children stayed in the house and the women had to endure violence silently so their children wouldn't hear it.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Oh my God. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Morgan later reported that Ehsan even beat her until he broke her ribs, and he beat them until they would sometimes pass out from the pain. And then he would post photos of their bruises to social media under the guise of consensual BDSM, being like, "Look what a fun time we had."
Em Schulz: Woah, woah.
Christine Schiefer: Woah. This one's upsetting. They're all upsetting. But this one made me jump a little bit. Ehsan once took a video holding Heather's head underwater in a bathtub.
Em Schulz: Oh. It's torture.
Christine Schiefer: She ended up... Torture. It's torture. It's torture. She ended up with pneumonia, bronchitis and an ear infection from that experience.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: She once texted Ehsan about his cruelty and abuse saying, "You are going to hurt someone or kill someone someday." Ehsan was drinking excessively, and despite the situation, Heather still wanted to help him. It was just kind of her nature.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In one message, he insulted her and called her slow. Heather responded, "I am not. I'm intelligent, resourceful, helpful and kind. I'm not always perfect, and I have my less-than-pretty moments, but I'm a pretty good person who just chooses the wrong men to be with. What's crazy is how smart you are and instead of using it to have a great life and happiness, you would rather hide and do nothing and stay in all of this chaos."
Em Schulz: Wow. Good for her.
Christine Schiefer: I know. So that... Yeah, that gives you an idea of like that dynamic.
Em Schulz: I also... So two questions.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: One is, and you may not know these, but how was she able to say something like that to him without repercussion? And...
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: Two, was she or any of these women, 'cause it sounds like they were able to leave and go to work and stuff like that, were they afraid to go to the police, or did they think, "Because I signed a contract, I... " There's nothing they can do about it?
Christine Schiefer: So I don't know the answer to the first question. I mean, my guess is that she probably was punished for that. Um, but as for your second question, um, I do have a little bit of, uh, information on that in a couple bullet points. So once I share those, let me know if that answers it or if, or not. Um...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'll get to that momentarily. I think, I think I might answer your question. Um, so, you know, due to Heather's protective nature in trying to keep people safe, she often took beatings on behalf of the other two women whenever she could. Like she would try to step in the way...
Em Schulz: Oh, God.
Christine Schiefer: To get, to keep them, to spare them from any of the, the abuse.
Em Schulz: What a hero. Geez.
Christine Schiefer: So... I know. I know. I know. So in answer to your second question about, you know, was it fear keeping them? Was it the contract? Well, in December of 2018, Morgan actually made her getaway in fear for her life. While Ehsan was at work, her co-worker helped her move into an apartment, rented under his name, so that Ehsan couldn't find her. And what's really kind of a sweet twist to the story, which is probably the only sweet twist to the story, is that for, happily for Morgan, uh, the man who helped her move into an apartment under his name, they actually fell in love, got married, bought a house...
Em Schulz: Aww.
Christine Schiefer: And had a child together.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Oh, wow.
Christine Schiefer: So very like Prince Charming, you know, like he saved the day. [chuckle] Um, but Heather and Bella were still stuck with Ehsan. And again, I think this might add a little more context as well to your question, but Heather and Bella were stuck there because in early 2019, police responded to a call from Heather because she had broken up with Ehsan and he had attacked her, locked her out of the house with her children still inside. And...
Em Schulz: Oh, shit.
Christine Schiefer: Police had to break a window to get inside, and Ehsan actually tried to grab one of the officer's guns in the process. So in the end, he was taken to jail temporarily on domestic abuse charges and obstruction of justice. And Heather filed a no-contact order and vowed to stay away from Ehsan, but as we know, uh...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: All too well, leaving an abuser isn't simple or easy. Uh, it can be extremely dangerous because abusers often follow through with their threats of retaliation. Many abuse victims fear for the lives, not only of their own lives, but of their friends, their children, their relatives, uh, because abusers know how to make threats that are genuinely terrifying, like to threaten your family, your children...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Your co-workers. Like it, it goes beyond just a threat to your life. It goes to your own circle.
Em Schulz: It's very... The, the layers to the onion are...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Deeper than you know. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And it's, it's... Breaking up with an abuser is not a linear situation.
Christine Schiefer: No, definitely not. Definitely not. One study actually found that 20% of homicide victims related to intimate partner violence were not even, uh, the, uh, the victims themselves. They were actually family members...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: New intimate partners, friends, acquaintances, police officers, and strangers instead of the actual immediate abuse victims themselves.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Even if...
Christine Schiefer: So 20% of deaths involved are like, not even of, you know...
Em Schulz: It's just people who were collateral damage in the crossfires.
Christine Schiefer: Collateral damage.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And that's almost scarier a lot of times than threats to yourself because like the last thing you want is someone to hurt your parents, your children, you know...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: As part of this. So, and it seems like oftentimes abusers will go through with those threats. So of course, Ehsan had emotional control over Heather, and she definitely feared what he was capable of. She had lived with him for a long time and she also felt like this was her home. Like she had lived there for so long.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: She had known him for so long. Her children lived there. And victims of abuse are also conditioned to rely on their abusers for emotional and often financial security. So in the end, as you said, not a linear process by any means. Heather actually asked the court to lift her no-contact order against Ehsan. She changed her mind while he sent her texts instructing her how to downplay the abuse that she suffered.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: So Ehsan told Heather to tell the judge she suffered from bipolar disorder and that she stopped taking her medications and that's what led to her accusations against him.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yikes.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Seems apparently, like even the attorney, his attorney, instructed Heather on how to lift the order, which was a huge legal conflict, and also ethically, a big ethical violation. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Knowing about the abuse and saying, "Oh, here's how, here's how... Here's what to say to the judge to get my client off the hook." Very disturbing.
Em Schulz: And the scariest thing too is like, I can't imagine the, um, additional punishments or rage that she would be going home to and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And even think about Bella, who was... 'Cause now one of the girls has already left and didn't come back.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: For a second, Heather was gone, so poor Bella was getting the brunt of three people...
Christine Schiefer: Now there's... Exactly.
Em Schulz: With, with an angry man who's taking out additional anger.
Christine Schiefer: She's like the only victim left. Yeah, the only... I, again, I'm saying victim. See, I'm trying to think more...
Em Schulz: Sure. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, open-mindedly or what have you, or think about my words. But yeah, she's the only woman left, as you said, to like bear the brunt of this. Um...
Em Schulz: Yeah. When, when usually it was spread across three people and...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: He was already one level of angry, now imagine incredibly angry and she's the only one there.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: And then when Heather comes back, imagine like the, quote, "punishment" she's getting for putting him through all that turmoil.
Christine Schiefer: Oof. And if she doesn't follow his instructions and his lawyer's instructions, I'm sure that would only make the punishment worse.
Em Schulz: And if he knows, I'm just trying to think like an abuser at this point, but just to follow along...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: But like, if, if her whole thing was always like, essentially volunteering as tribute every time that he wanted to hurt somebody and he knows that she wants to protect...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: You know, Bella and the other girl, like when she comes back, her punishment might be watching Bella get beaten up or something...
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Of like, "Look what you did," you know, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I have to imagine part of the suffering or stress, or like turmoil in her mind too, is like, "What's happening to Bella while I'm gone?" Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Can I... Should I go back and like make sure she's okay?" I mean...
Em Schulz: That's gotta be one of the reasons that she even went back 'cause you know he said something to her about like...
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: "I'm gonna hurt Bella if you don't come back," or you know, something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's that definitely at least implied threats, you know, whether they were outspoken or not, but just a very, very scary and complex situation. And it just... I mean, nothing angers me more than people who just say like, "Well then leave," you know. It's... It's a...
Em Schulz: Well, it just, if it just... There's no faster way to out yourself as someone who's never been through it. So...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Exact point. Great point. Great point. Great point. So this attorney apparently instructed Heather on how to lift the order, which was a huge conflict of interest and ethical violation. And the judge even commented that it would probably be good for Heather's children to get back together with Ehsan, to have a stable family life with Ehsan.
Em Schulz: Woah. Who said that?
Christine Schiefer: The judge.
Em Schulz: Ugh!
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Em Schulz: Are you kidding me?
Christine Schiefer: It's infuriating. It's infuriating. Uh, so the order was lifted in June of 2019. I mean, it was at Heather's request, but still very shady situation. Two weeks later...
Em Schulz: Can I... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Nothing. I, I was gonna, I was gonna ask, I hear 2019 and I know what's around the corner, which is 2020...
Christine Schiefer: Hm. Well...
Em Schulz: Does... Okay. I... Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Let's just go back to 2019 because... So June of 2019, the order was lifted. Two weeks later, at age 33 years old, Heather was dead.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: On July 4th, 2019, police responded to the house Heather shared with Ehsan to a call from Bella. Apparently, Heather had hanged herself in the basement.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: When police arrived, a woman named Holly was doing chest compressions on Heather. She immediately told police that Heather had bipolar disorder and hadn't taken her meds earlier, which was kind of an eerie echo of Ehsan's manipulation tactics like...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "Tell the judge you have bipolar." Initially, Holly reported that Ehsan was at work when Heather died, but a little bit later, she actually told police that Ehsan had been there when Heather died and he'd help her take, he'd helped her take Heather down from the chain before they called police.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Then she explained that he fled the scene while Holly did CPR. And Holly explained it by saying, "We know how it looks because of like the domestic violence."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So police briefly spoke with Ehsan at the house later that night and he told them Heather had willingly climbed into the chain which strangled her, and that she had the keys and could have released herself at any time.
Em Schulz: That's bullshit.
Christine Schiefer: He said he left Heather alone in the chain, although he did check on her several times throughout the night. And when he found her dead, they called the police right away, according to him. The police asked Ehsan to do an interview and Ehsan told them to contact his lawyer, but there is no record that the police ever followed up with him again.
Em Schulz: What? What?
Christine Schiefer: They observed the scene. They saw sex and drug paraphernalia in the basement with Heather, she was undressed, and they immediately ruled the death as suicide and said, "The end, case closed."
Em Schulz: That takes my breath away fully.
Christine Schiefer: It is breathtaking in the worst way.
Em Schulz: I wish this was the first time on this show I had something nasty to say about the police and their lack of investigative skills. Um, how do you...
Christine Schiefer: Well...
Em Schulz: What? How do you what?
Christine Schiefer: Fortunately...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Death investigator, Breanna Dibble of the Hennepin County medical examiner's office was not convinced, and as someone who...
Em Schulz: Good. Oh, thank God.
Christine Schiefer: One person had some, you know...
Em Schulz: A woman, by the way?
Christine Schiefer: A little insight. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, a woman.
Em Schulz: Hm. Funny.
Christine Schiefer: She investigated hundreds of deaths in her career and she had never seen a woman commit suicide while naked. That was actually the thing that stood out to her the most.
Em Schulz: Oh. Huh.
Christine Schiefer: Heather's children were upstairs and she thought it was unlikely Heather would risk one of them finding her without clothes on. And like, just seriously strong note here, this is not to shame victims of suicide who like would take their lives in other circumstances.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Breanna herself, just based on her own professional and personal experience, found this very unusual and it was a red flag. And she also noted the many injuries covering Heather's body. Police told Breanna not to bother with any homicide investigation protocol regarding Heather's body. They had even covered her with a dirty sheet, which contaminated the scene.
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: But Breanna followed homicide protocol anyway. Uh, so she did, but the police had already made up their minds. This is when Tracy, Heather's mom, comes back into the picture.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Tracy gets a call about her daughter's death and she rushes to her grandchildren, and then asked police if Ehsan had killed Heather. She did not believe Heather would die by suicide, especially with her own children in the house. And Tracy already knew about Ehsan's abuse. She had actually pleaded with Heather to leave him and she was convinced that Ehsan was actually the cause of her daughter's death.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: However, the county ultimately decided not to file any charges related to Heather's death. And this is when Tracy went on a rampage. She demanded everything from the county. She wanted documents, reports, everything down to police body cam footage, all of it. She wanted access to all of it. And as she was getting this information, she realized very quickly that things were not adding up. So after Bella's initial short interview with the police the day Heather's body was found, she later told investigators that Ehsan and Holly had actually coached her on what to say.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She admitted, "It was all about just making sure I don't say that he left her there, that she did it herself." So now Bella's basically saying, "Ehsan made me say all those things to police like, 'Oh no, it was all her.'"
Em Schulz: Right. I mean, I feel like we all saw that coming.
Christine Schiefer: "Ehsan had nothing to do with it." Exactly. She said, quote, "He was there with her and he left her there chained by the neck in the basement by herself while they were doing alcohol and cocaine. I don't think she took her life." And that's like a damning statement from someone who lives in the house, knows Heather very well, is close with her and...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Is in essentially the same relationship with Ehsan that Heather is. So it's someone who really intimately knows the details of this relationship. So if she's saying, "I don't think she was the one who took her life," like that should count for something, in my opinion.
Em Schulz: Yeah, definitely.
Christine Schiefer: So it was vital for Ehsan that everyone believed Heather put herself in the chain and had access to the key to free herself at any time. But Bella said that when she discovered Heather was dead and tried to call the police, Ehsan and Holly said they needed to find the key to get her down first. So she helped them search for 10 minutes until Ehsan said he found the key right at Heather's feet, which Bella said did not make sense to me. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah, how convenient. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: How fucking convenient. He unlocked Heather, took her down and told police the key was right there for Heather to use all along. She just didn't use it. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Bella also told police she had seen Heather in handcuffs with her hands behind her back the morning she died, and the autopsy photos showed contusions on her wrists. So if Heather were handcuffed around her back, she wouldn't have even been able to use the key that was supposed to take the chain off of her neck.
Em Schulz: This... The second that I heard, "Oh, she had the key on her," it's like, no, she didn't. Like...
Christine Schiefer: What are you talking about?
Em Schulz: Or if she did, if she felt herself dying, she would have done something about it. Like... So immediately I knew that was bullshit. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Well, he's claiming it's suicide. So he's saying, "Oh, she must have like... "
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: "Tossed the key, or, you know, intentionally not used the key."
Em Schulz: But I also... It sounds like nobody else was, is playing that game. And so like...
Christine Schiefer: No. And, and it doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if her hands were literally tied behind her back.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Like, that's not gonna work.
Em Schulz: Like, was she Houdini? No.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I love this about Tracy, Heather's mom. She guesses her daughter's passwords and accesses her social media, which I love...
Em Schulz: Good for her.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, her social medias and in texts, and she finds messages where Heather says Ehsan did not respect her safe word, "red". Uh, red is actually somewhat of a universal safe word in the BDSM community. And a common safe word is actually useful in social settings so that if there are multiple people involved in scenes, um, they know...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Everyone kinda knows when a person is asking to pause, uh, so they can keep a scene safe, uh, even from the outside, which I think is really cool.
Em Schulz: So smart. I didn't even think about that.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Fun fact. So when someone uses their safe word, the, the supposed way that this is supposed to go is that everyone involved in the scene should stop to see what the person needs immediately. No hesitation, no...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's... Safe word means stop.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: In messages, Heather described Ehsan violating that rule. And this breaks my heart, like really makes me upset. It says, she texted him, "I said red so many times."
Em Schulz: Ugh. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's fucking heartbreaking.
Em Schulz: So you know she was like desperate.
Christine Schiefer: She's trying to get out of the situation.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: In another message to Ehsan, she accused him of using kink to justify abuse, which is...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely what's happening. Using Heather's phone, Tracy got in touch with Morgan, the one who had, uh, you know, left, uh, a while before, the third woman that had been living there, and she agreed to make a statement to the police as well about Ehsan's abuse. And she also sent Tracy an image from Ehsan's social media in which he was subjecting Heather to violence and humiliation under the guise of BDSM online, and sharing these things without her consent. Ready for the caption he wrote under, uh, one photo? Um...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: He posted a photo of her, of Heather, uh, you know, in bad shape and wrote, "Pray for this bitch, y'all. She's got a rough month ahead of her."
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And Bella was able to confirm that the photo was taken while Heather's protective order against Ehsan was still active.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Argh! So...
Em Schulz: Woah.
Christine Schiefer: The reality was that Heather never actually managed to achieve any distance from Ehsan to consider her options and leave for good. So even when she had that statement in place, he was still managing to keep her under his thumb and...
Em Schulz: And it confirms us saying like, imagine the punishment she's gonna get from this.
Christine Schiefer: Precisely, precisely. Like that piece of paper did nothing as we see time and time again. Morgan sent investigators a video of Ehsan choking her while she was drunk and high, and when apparently she didn't wanna participate in scenes or record them, Ehsan would make her drink alcohol and smoke weed until she was unable to refuse and the flip side of that is unable to consent.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So she said, "In the video, you can see that I'm just not there at all."
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh.
Christine Schiefer: The investigator she spoke to, this is gonna make your blood boil, remains skeptical that any crime had occurred. He seemed to think willingness to participate in BDSM meant Ehsan's victims automatically consented to everything and therefore couldn't be abused. I mean that's like people who...
Em Schulz: So she was... So she was asking for it.
Christine Schiefer: She wanted it, yeah. And this is like the same, in my mind, a very similar, uh, thought process as people who say, "Oh, if you're married, you can't be raped like... "
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: "By your partner because... "
Em Schulz: Or like if you're a sex worker, you're asking for it or...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for rape. Yeah, exactly. It's that same idea of like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, like you wanted this.
Christine Schiefer: "Well, you agreed to this, uh, contract, so... "
Em Schulz: Ooh. Ooh. Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: It's very dark, very dark.
Em Schulz: Oh, my God. And even... Ugh. Yeah. And it just goes to show you how, you know, I'm not even, um, I'm not trying to accidentally become like, you know, the advocates of BDSM here, but like this just goes to show you that like, which like... I mean, I guess we can be the advocate for BDSM, whatever. But...
Christine Schiefer: No, sure. [chuckle] I, I think they didn't ask for us to be, but...
Em Schulz: I didn't ask for it either. But, um, like, this just goes to show how much further we need to go in educating people 'cause all that... See, he was just writing off of a misconception again...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Of like, "Oh, well, you're a bunch of like sex freaks and... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "Beyond comprehension and... "
Christine Schiefer: "You like pain and getting tied up. So he beat you up, isn't that what you wanted?"
Em Schulz: Exactly. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: There's just like such a lack of understanding of nuance of...
Em Schulz: What a fucking asshole. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It, it is, it is. It's deeply disturbing. Um, he actually... He went on, so there's more for you here. He compared Morgan's, quote, "participation" in the scenes to being coerced into a boxing match. He said, quote...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: "You can't come back a month later and say, "Hey, I didn't agree to get my ass kicked, but at the tame, same time, you agreed to fight." Oh my God.
Em Schulz: It's, it's... I don't know that person...
Christine Schiefer: That ain't, that ain't it, buddy. That ain't it.
Em Schulz: It's, it's... I don't know this person, and I'm not trying to like, you know, throw direct accusations at this person, but people who say things like that, I, I would never allow you to like keep my drink safe. Like I wouldn't...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Like you're telling me that like... Like, I wonder what your history is with women, like, or anyone. Like I'm just, I'm just... If that's your, the way that you think, I would... I'm just curious what else is going on behind closed doors.
Christine Schiefer: I don't trust, I don't trust you, let's put it that way.
Em Schulz: At all.
Christine Schiefer: I don't really trust you with my safety.
Em Schulz: At all.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: No, no, couldn't.
Christine Schiefer: But with pressure and evidence mounting, police reluctantly agreed to reopen the case, and the investigation led to another survivor of Ehsan's abuse, 32-year-old Gabby Schmeeckle. She was new to BDSM and was looking for an experienced and caring mentor. She followed Morgan, Bella and Heather on social media and thought that if experienced women like them associated with Ehsan, he must be a safe person, which is a fair assumption, right? She's like, "I trust these women. I know that they've, you know, they know what they're doing in the BDSM space and if they're all with Ehsan, like he must be someone I can trust."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Obviously, unfortunately that was not the case. So the day after Heather's death, Ehsan arranged a meetup with Gabby. She noticed there was a weird vibe in the house, but nobody told her that Heather had been found dead the day before in the house.
Em Schulz: Oof. Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: She was just like, this, the vibe is off. Yeah, the vibe is off.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, well, you're right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Girl, run. The vibe is off.
Em Schulz: Trust your gut. Trust your gut.
Christine Schiefer: Ehsan told Gabby if she wanted to be involved with him, she'd need to pass an audition...
Em Schulz: Oh...
Christine Schiefer: Which...
Em Schulz: For fuck's sake.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I knew you would love that, which entailed her allowing Ehsan to do anything he wanted to her with no safe word and no limits.
Em Schulz: [gasp] What?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So he's not even fucking playing the game anymore...
Christine Schiefer: No, he's not even pretending.
Em Schulz: How... And right after a death just happened here...
Christine Schiefer: The day after Heather's death.
Em Schulz: Wouldn't you be so anal to make sure that you didn't look at all like a dangerous...
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: Fucking person? Like I know you...
Christine Schiefer: It's baffling.
Em Schulz: This is when you're picking to just say, "Oh, forget all of the rules in this very... "
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: "Rule... Like very heavily-conditioned space... "
Christine Schiefer: Rule-oriented... Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yes. Rule, rule-oriented industry or field or whatever, and to be like, "Oh, we're not gonna do a contract. We're not gonna do a safe word." If you don't have a safe word, I don't know enough about BDSM, so this could be... I... Maybe I don't know enough, but in my, my interpretation of it is if you don't have a safe word, you're not doing BDSM, because I...
Christine Schiefer: That's not...
Em Schulz: I feel like that's not how it works...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It, it feels like there's...
Em Schulz: As far as I know.
Christine Schiefer: A very... There's a standard for these relationships, like...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: The safe word is there for a very important reason, arguably, like one of the most important reasons to keep everyone safe. I mean...
Em Schulz: I, I can't imagine a bigger red flag.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, big red... Especially if he's saying like, "Oh, yeah, I'm definitely safe to be around, but in order to get to that relationship with me you first have to do this, the opposite. You have to feel completely unsafe and have no limits and no safe word and... "
Em Schulz: But you're also totally right. You're totally right that like, she would've seen that like, "Oh, these other people who are really confident... "
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: "In the BDSM world are with this guy, so like, maybe like... "
Christine Schiefer: And have been for years. Maybe there's something to it.
Em Schulz: "Maybe I shouldn't be as worried." Like, I can totally see the mind game of like, well...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And, and she's like, brand new to this, this whole experience. So for her, she's like, "Well, maybe that's normal, you know." How would you know?
Em Schulz: Maybe that's how it works, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Ugh. Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It's really, really dangerous that he's like giving this false, uh, reality to people of like what BDSM really is not. So later, Gabby, uh, said, "There was no consent. There was no saying no. This man is trained in Jiu-Jitsu. He's an MMA fighter. What am I going to do against him?" And he beat her relentlessly until she fled for her own safety. But somehow Ehsan convinced Gabby to give him another chance, which makes me think he must have some narcissistic qualities about him to be able to charm these people right back into his life, you know what I mean? Like, she fled and he somehow talked her into coming back for another chance.
Em Schulz: I mean, he's, he's had, had some narcissistic tendencies from the be beginning.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: But no, yeah, he's...
Christine Schiefer: I guess, I mean, he must be more charming than I'm picturing him to be because...
Em Schulz: Yeah, I... Yeah, he's got something manipulative going...
Christine Schiefer: He's got something that he's drawing people back with, you know... And so he, she gave him another chance, but the abuse continued until she filed a police report against him. The police told her there wasn't really a case because it all happened in the context of BDSM and her report went nowhere.
Em Schulz: I wanna lose my mind.
Christine Schiefer: What a surprise. I know. Meanwhile, Tracy, thankfully, this is Heather's mom, had made some headway in her daughter's case. Ehsan was going to be charged with violating the protective order Heather had against him before her death. So at least something is moving. His lawyer was also being investigated. Remember, because I said she was coaching Heather to...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Help her own client, which was like a big no-no. And meanwhile, Ehsan moved on to another woman he met on a dating app named Stephanie Chow. Ehsan had moved. He moved to Tucson, Arizona and immediately jumped right back into his old bullshit. Ehsan subjected her to the same violence he used on the other women in his life until Stephanie knew she was in grave danger. One day, a domestic violence call came into the Tucson Police. The responding officer arrived to find Stephanie sprinting at full speed down a sidewalk with Ehsan in hot pursuit. Terrifying. Ehsan tackled Stephanie to the ground right in front of the police cruiser and started attacking her until the officer forced him back at gunpoint.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: One of Ehsan's and Stephanie's neighbors told police that Ehsan had been harassing them relentlessly. He had even broken one of their windows and smeared it with his own feces.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, we have entered into a whole new territory now.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck is...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Is he doing?
Em Schulz: Oh my God, that's a full... He is not with us.
Christine Schiefer: He is not well. Uh, there was also a national warrant out ordering his extradition to Minnesota for missing a court date, so authorities were supposed to escort him to Minnesota, but instead a judge let him out on a bond. And fun fact...
Em Schulz: Christine... Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody contacted Stephanie to warn her that he was coming back to their home.
Em Schulz: Christine, dude, like, it's... Like, it's... I don't even know what to... I don't even...
Christine Schiefer: There's no words, you know? So Ehsan waltzed through the door, the front door, and Stephanie was sure he would kill her, but thank God...
Em Schulz: Duh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He didn't. Thank God he didn't. But it still seemed like Ehsan's reign of terror would never end. Like he was just getting away with it left and right. Again and again, the women who were reporting him were dismissed and accused of consenting to their abuse and probably getting worse abuse, like you said, as a punishment for reporting him.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So finally, Ehsan went back to Minnesota where he stood in court on charges of violating Heather's protective order against him, and he had also been convicted of violating a protective order Bella had against him. Ehsan's attorney argued that Ehsan loved Heather and that she and the other women consented to everything he did. But Bella spoke up and said, "Nope, wasn't consensual at all."
Em Schulz: Good...
Christine Schiefer: The judge...
Em Schulz: Good girl.
Christine Schiefer: Good, good job. I mean, that must have been very hard to say in, in a setting like that.
Em Schulz: Oh my God, I'm so proud of her.
Christine Schiefer: Me too. The judge ultimately sentenced Ehsan to the maximum penalty for this crime, which was only 90 days in jail. Uh, but for Tracy, this was the first moment of justice she had actually achieved for her daughter. So she walked out of the courtroom with her hands raised in celebration. But upon Ehsan's release within 90 days, he went right back to his old habits, of course, because they always do. He went to Florida to stay with Holly.
Em Schulz: Oh my God!
Christine Schiefer: I know. In September, Holly's friends called the police and sent them to her apartment where Ehsan was holding Holly captive.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Holly had tried to break up with Ehsan and he choked her until she was unconscious, took her phone and held her against her will for 36 hours, subjecting her...
Em Schulz: [gasp] Why am I surprised? Okay.
Christine Schiefer: To torture her the whole time.
Em Schulz: Torture?
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm. This is a feat of genius, Holly finally used her Apple Watch to message the friend who called the police.
Em Schulz: [gasp] I'm, I'm so fucking proud of her too.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know. Thank God. So Ehsan was charged with assault, battery and a first degree felony for kidnapping that could mean up to life in prison, but of course, again, Ehsan and his asshole attorney argued that this was all consensual and was all just part of BDSM. But Holly had spent two months in inpatient psychiatric care recovering from the trauma of this ordeal and that pretty much showed like, this was not consensual. Right?
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Years earlier, Holly really had loved and trusted Ehsan, and she had truly believed that he was innocent of any wrongdoing in Heather's death. And now she says she knows he is capable of very real violence. She said, quote, "I really feel like the only people that know what happened are him and Heather, and obviously Heather can't speak for herself anymore."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So ultimately, six women have accused Ehsan of abuse across four states. Four women have filed protective orders against him, and he has violated two. As of the story published in June of this year, so June, 2023, covering this extensive case, charges were still pending against Ehsan in Arizona for assault, and in Florida for kidnapping. The Minnesota Supreme Court also enacted a 60-day suspension on Ehsan lawyer's law license and put her on a two-year probation for her involvement in having Heather lift her protective order against Ehsan after he had already violated it.
Em Schulz: No, they should be disbarred, disbarred. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I think she should be disbarred. So Bella divorced Ehsan, thankfully, uh, and she made plans to go back to school and finish her degree. She and Morgan actually launched a website called What Happened to Heather, where they detail the abuse that Ehsan subjected all of them to. And to women in the BDSM community, this story is basically the stuff of nightmares. Like it's...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's the worst possible case scenario that somebody that you feel like is a safe person to be with is violating your trust, violating your safe word, not...
Em Schulz: Especially when this is your place to reclaim your sexuality...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: From assault a lot of times.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Em Schulz: I mean, it's... This is supposed to be exactly where you don't have to worry about that and...
Christine Schiefer: The opposite is what's supposed to be... Literally, yes. You're supposed to be recovering, you know, from, from any... You're supposed to feel like you're in control and in charge of your body, and it's almost like he's utilizing that against them.
Em Schulz: Think of the violation, not only of trust with a partner but now any partner ever, first of all...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And you have now probably been so traumatized that you have now lost a lot of relationships because you don't wanna be in that community anymore. So like it's not just...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it must be hard to re-enter that and trust people that you don't know very well.
Em Schulz: Yeah, ever. I mean...
Christine Schiefer: Ever.
Em Schulz: That's... It's not just uh, a singular violation. It takes away a whole community. It takes...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Um, and... Oh my God. And I mean...
Christine Schiefer: I, I imagine it'd be hard to feel safe again in that community, just because of this one person.
Em Schulz: And what a... I mean, that's the downside, I guess, to like whatever, you know, kink culture is, or whatever BDSM specifically could be, is that there are still manipulative people out there who can take advantage of the fact that a lot of people don't understand it.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: And so you couldn't... I mean, he literally just said, "Oh, no, that's not BDSM," and got away with it like a million times.
Christine Schiefer: He's literally in hiding in, hiding in plain sight, you know...
Em Schulz: Yes, totally.
Christine Schiefer: And just taking this, taking advantage of a community and making it about something that, that it, that's not what it's really for. And it's very scary that people can hide like that and then get away with it.
Em Schulz: Just knowing that he can work off of other people's ignorance to like...
Christine Schiefer: Biases. Yes, yes, exactly.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: So, yeah, like I said, this of course is a stuff of nightmares to women in the BDSM community, or people in general in the BDSM community, but it's also, unfortunately, nothing new. Uh, women who survived abuse and who are also open about their sexuality are often dismissed as having consented to that abuse and that really is a tragic and disturbing reality. Uh, additionally, abuse survivors and victims continue to be blamed for their own suffering. Uh, it must just be such a slap in the face and be...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Basically re-traumatizing you, you know, if people don't take you seriously for... If you come to someone who's supposed to protect you, whether it's your loved ones...
Em Schulz: I mean the amount...
Christine Schiefer: The police, whoever.
Em Schulz: The amount of times people are saying, "Well, you asked for it," or "You wanted it," or, "Well, what did you expect?" or...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And then on top of it, you've just got the general ignorant people to domestic violence who are like, "Well, why didn't you leave?" And it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean, every level of it, you can't, uh, you can't just have autonomy or feel...
Christine Schiefer: It feels like you're just like knocking on a glass wall and people are just like, "Sorry, nothing we can do." It's...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's a scary, scary thought. Well, Morgan and Bella, who are now close friends and...
Em Schulz: Oh, good.
Christine Schiefer: Roommates, believe it or not, and who both have Ehsan, thank God, out of their lives, launched a nonprofit called Heather House which assists survivors of domestic violence. And uh...
Em Schulz: That's awesome.
Christine Schiefer: I think that's really special that, you know, they were able to reclaim, you know, something, something special, uh, and, and make, make something great out of it. Um, yeah. I'm just, uh... That's the silver lining, I suppose.
Em Schulz: Hm. Well...
Christine Schiefer: And that's the story. The end.
Em Schulz: That sucked, Christine. That sucked. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: The end. [laughter] Horrible.
Em Schulz: Um... Hm, I don't know where to...
Christine Schiefer: Well...
Em Schulz: Go from there.
Christine Schiefer: I'll, I'll end us here. Uh, if...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: You are experiencing any domestic violence or know someone who is...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: There are places that can help. Um, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is 1-800-799-7233. Uh, they also have English, Spanish and 200-plus uh, interpretation services available. You can also chat with them, uh, and you can send an SMS, you can text START to 88788, uh, and, you know, uh, we love you and, uh, you, you got this.
Em Schulz: A general reminder to people too, that the universal hand signal for "I need help" or "I'm in a, I'm in a violent, domestic violent situation, please help me," um, whether you're on Zoom or you're in front of people is to have your palm out, if you can see the screen on YouTube, but if not, uh, stick your hand out, put your thumb into your palm, and then close your fingers over your thumb, and that means "Help me." Um, so if you ever see someone doing that please, um, if you see something, say something.
Christine Schiefer: Didn't that happen? Uh, wasn't there, uh, someone who did that in a car window and got...
Em Schulz: I think so, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Rescued? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So just a reminder that if you see someone close their fingers over their thumb, they might be asking for help, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It is called the violence at home signal for help.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: So it's almost like you're, you're getting, uh, it looks almost like you're getting trapped, like you're being held against your will is...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Almost the interpretation. Um, yeah. So...
Em Schulz: Uh...
Christine Schiefer: There you go.
Em Schulz: Well, if, if, you know, we can learn from anything, it's, it's to educate ourselves more on, on BDSM...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And be there for people. And stop asking people why they don't leave when there's things going on.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, well, I don't know how Halloween-themed that was, but it was certainly scary, so...
Christine Schiefer: Certainly was...
Em Schulz: Great job.
Christine Schiefer: Very frightening, yeah, of all things. But I promise next, uh, episode will be Halloween-y in theme.
Em Schulz: Cool. Okay, cool.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, uh, thank you everyone. We're gonna go do our After Hours, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I have a, a topic. Is that okay? I, I've already prepared...
Em Schulz: Yeah, sure.
Christine Schiefer: A, uh, a little true crime quiz for you. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Ooh. Christine loves a quiz. Alright, well...
Christine Schiefer: I love a quiz. [laughter]
Em Schulz: We're gonna go keep hanging out. If you wanna listen, go join Patreon and, um, we'll see you over there. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.