E351 Mongoose Sound-Waves and Halloween Caroling
TOPICS: Beelzebub, Halloween Pranks Turned Crimes
Happy Halloween!! Beware episode 351 because Gef the Mongoose is taking over the airwaves! Gef's ears are also ringing in hell because Em is taking us on an introductory tour of the seven princes of Hell, specifically Beelzebub. Then Christine covers the history of Halloween pranks turned crimes. We're sorry if this isn't the church you were looking for... and that's why we drink!
Transcript
[intro music]
Em Schulz: Happy Halloween. Um, I am as confused as the rest of those watching on YouTube right now. As you can see, I got in the spirit by wearing a sweater, but I feel like I'm about to be like severely, um, upstaged, because...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, the screen is blank, uh, on Christine's side. It's been blank since we started our recording session, and I've been hearing the craziest fucking sounds coming through her microphone.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I think she's just wrapped up in a big cellophane bow and...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That was Em's guess. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And, um...
Christine Schiefer: Eva guessed that I was Mr. Cellophane. I was like...
Em Schulz: You...
Christine Schiefer: Guess... Close enough.
Em Schulz: Sounds like it. Um, yeah, I don't... It sounds like either you just, you're dressed as scotch tape or you used a lot of it. It's one of the two.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: So, um, with, with that, um, here, welcome to the stage, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Let me turn this on real quick. Okay.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Um...
Em Schulz: You're Gef the Mongoose.
Christine Schiefer: I... [chuckle] I am not a spirit. I am a little extra, extra clever mongoose.
Em Schulz: You? [clapping]
Christine Schiefer: Hello. Here's my tail. Wait, where's my tail? Wait, where's my tail? Uh-oh, I lost it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my... Well...
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: That sounds like something the eighth wonder of the world would do. What are you doing? Why do you have... It was Ring Pops. That's what you were opening on.
Christine Schiefer: It was Ring Pops.
Em Schulz: Why Ring Pops? What's the reference?
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. He's just like...
Em Schulz: Oh. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: He's always saying like how extra he is and how he's like the next best great thing. So I bought a bunch of Ring Pops to wear on my hands and a gold crown.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: And... Oh, there's my tail.
Em Schulz: Christine, you...
Christine Schiefer: There it is. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: I gotta be honest. Your eighth wonder of the world sign, what's on the other side of that? I gotta know. It's a cupcake, isn't it? Oh. Best Day Ever Hungry Caterpillar. I see... Okay, recycle.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, reuse.
Christine Schiefer: Reuse, recycle.
Em Schulz: Um, eighth wonder of the world. I... Now I feel so bad I didn't dress up. I was trying to...
Christine Schiefer: No...
Em Schulz: I was...
Christine Schiefer: This was a development that occurred within the last hour or so. Um...
Em Schulz: And that feels right. Your brain just went, "You know what I should do, really fucking... "
Christine Schiefer: "You know what would be fun?"
Em Schulz: "Shift the earth uh, as it moves beneath me."
Christine Schiefer: I was on the way to pick Leona up and I stopped at Target. And the... What I'm mad about myself about is that I wore a fox costume two years ago when we did our little Halloween.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And I must have donated it. I tore my whole house apart. This is why I don't get rid of things. I was like, "Oh, that would be perfect." So then I go to Target and I'm like, "I'll just buy the same one and hope I find the other one and return it." Uh, they don't sell it anymore. So I had to buy an Eevee Pokemon [chuckle] costume.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, those ears are giving Pokemon a little bit.
Christine Schiefer: I shrunk them down a bit. They were much bigger before.
Em Schulz: Oh! Oh my gosh. Are you an artist?
Christine Schiefer: So now I can... Yeah, I am. So I can... Have you not met me? I'm Gef the Mongoose. I'm...
Em Schulz: You know...
Christine Schiefer: Everything you think I am and more.
Em Schulz: She said it, not me. Also, I really actually love the Ring Pop situation because it's...
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: That feel... I mean, he was... We always... I think we said in the, the episode itself that he really is giving Gemini energy and he's got the dramatic flair.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. That's exactly what I was going for.
Em Schulz: He, he... That would be very, um, vain-bedazzled in some way, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You know, I almost... I was gonna buy also some chains because he also says... I looked up a bunch of quotes. He also says, "I am a ghost in the form of a weasel and I shall haunt you with weird noises and clanking chains." And so I did the weird noises already with my, you know, cellophane.
Em Schulz: [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, the chains would've been a good addition. And then I'm gonna say one more here. Um, "I know who I am, but I shan't tell you. I am a freak, I have hands and I have feet and if you saw me, you'd faint. You'd be petrified, mummified, turned into stone, or a pillar of salt. I'll split the atom. I am the fifth dimension. I am the eighth wonder of the world." And that's me.
Em Schulz: I mean, I, I couldn't be more proud to know you and also terrified.
Christine Schiefer: Aww.
Em Schulz: Um, as my, my... You've made my lights freak out over here. I don't know what's going on.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's the goal. You know, the day you did Gef the Mongoose changed my life and I realized just how like, [chuckle] how our souls were intertwined. Not yours and mine, but Gef's and mine. And so, um, it just felt right.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Well I...
Christine Schiefer: Even though I look like Eevee from Pokemon, but it's okay. [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, the the glasses and the Ring Pops, and also couldn't be more Christine of you to now just like have 10 sticky fingers for the rest of the day.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so sticky. It's horrible. And I keep eating them for some reason.
Em Schulz: 'Cause it's not, it's not just one Ring pop. It is your whole hand. You look like an Italian mob boss. You kiss my ring. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly what I was going for. Thank you.
Em Schulz: And your crown is giving, uh, "Where the Wild Things Are".
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. I had to buy a pack, five-pack of these, so I'll have to reuse them for something.
Em Schulz: You wanna loop it over your ear maybe?
Christine Schiefer: This is... I guess so. That's a good idea.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: There we go. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: You don't look any worse, I'll tell you that. But...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, I'm sorry for all the, um, you know, calamity, but here I am.
[elevator music]
Em Schulz: Sorry, everyone. We had some technical difficulties where Gef the Mongoose took over the sound waves and um, we... Hopefully, Christine sounds a little crisper now.
Christine Schiefer: Jim, Em, I have a goddamn cough. I have a hell of a cold. You'll have to get me something.
Em Schulz: What?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Wow. You're really talking like Gef the Mongooses. Just saying things.
Christine Schiefer: He's damn well not going to get to know my inferior complex.
Em Schulz: Okay. Yeah. Okay. I see what's happening.
Christine Schiefer: I'm trying to find, uh, things that are like, will, you know, be naturally fit in, but it's not really working. I... And here we...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Here we go. This is what I have to tell you. If you're kind to me, I will bring you good luck. If you are not kind, I shall kill all your poultry.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that sounds like something Christine would say.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Except by kill, it would be something more humane, but still equally threatening. So...
Christine Schiefer: I will steal them away and keep them in my bedroom.
Em Schulz: You know what the threat would be? I'll love them forever and they'll never leave your world.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, Christine, do you have a reason why you drink this Halloween?
Christine Schiefer: "You're looking. Stop looking. Turn your head, you bastard. I cannot stand your eyes". That's why I drink. Um, I just am like getting into the spirit of Gef.
Em Schulz: That one worked.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you.
Em Schulz: That one, that one worked.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, you know Em, I drink...
Em Schulz: Where are we going? Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I'm taking this thing off. I'm sorry. It's really, it's really itchy.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, there are those shoulders I apparently love so much. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay, listen, I got hit on two times yesterday wearing this, not even hit on, but like just creepily cat-called by old men wearing this tank top and I'm like, "Okay, so maybe it's a thing. Maybe it's a thing that I didn't know about."
Em Schulz: I think there's a, there's a magical ingredient that that shirt is providing you. I don't know what it is.
Christine Schiefer: It's literally Spanx brand tank top. So I don't know if that's...
Em Schulz: Bingo.
Christine Schiefer: That's it, but anyway, um... Anyhow, I'm sorry. Well, I, I, I drink... I've done enough talking today. Why do you drink, Em?
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Um, I drink... What do I, what do I... Why, why do I drink? Oh.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna ask you a question, but if you wanna, but if you wanna tell a reason why you drink first, that works too.
Em Schulz: Okay, sure. I, um, drink because I'm a little stressed out. Um, I... Allison is getting two birthdays this year.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And by the time this comes out, I guess it's, you know, it's already happened 'cause her birthday is...
Christine Schiefer: 10/20.
Em Schulz: Earlier in October. And, um, yeah, so last year, I don't remember what happened at this point, but she didn't get a birthday. We kept pushing it off and I kept saying like, "Oh, I'll do it later." And then there was this one thing I really wanted to take her to, but they kept pushing it. I think there was like some like local drama about, like, about this like event not coming back. And I, I... They kept saying like, "Oh, we're gonna push to next month," or, "Oh, we're relocating... "
Christine Schiefer: Ohhh.
Em Schulz: So I kept waiting and I was like, "Let's do your birthday when this thing happens," but then it kept not happening. And so now a whole year, I, I gave up like a few months ago on it, but um, eventually got to a point where like her actual birthday was coming up again. And so I was like...
Christine Schiefer: Again. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was like, "What the fuck do I do?" So she's getting a double whammy this year and um...
Christine Schiefer: Nice.
Em Schulz: I'm just a little stressed about getting it all handled. But it will get handled at some...
Christine Schiefer: You'll get it handled.
Em Schulz: At the stroke of midnight, I'll have some sort of genius, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Just call me. I, um, have all sorts of odd, odd objects laying around that I could ship your way, if you need, you know, a tail, if you need a crown, a mothman wing.
Em Schulz: Thank you. The thing is, I already have a bunch of presents because I've bought her things throughout the year, plus I have all of...
Christine Schiefer: Smart.
Em Schulz: Last year's fucking presents still wrapped.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she hasn't even opened her presents yet from last year. That's funny.
Em Schulz: No. And I know exactly what I'm gonna do like food-wise. I know what I'm gonna do... Like, I just don't know how to tie it all together. Like, you know I love a theme and I hate that it currently doesn't have a theme, so...
Christine Schiefer: It feels like too disjointed.
Em Schulz: It's like, oh, here's just like a random day. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, it's gotta be, I wanted to have a... Like every... Like our... Her first birthday was a scavenger hunt. The next one, we went on a trip. The next one... Like there was like a concise thing we did. And like...
Christine Schiefer: And then the next year you did nothing. So that was a concise thing too. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: That's up... That was...
Christine Schiefer: I get it.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna pretend that was Gef talking, but um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, yeah, so I just, I feel bad that like I've got a bunch of like ideas, but they're not strung together in like a way. And so...
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: I'm, I'm just panicking about figuring that out. But anyway, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I know you'll nail it. I know that doesn't help your anxiety, but I know you'll nail it.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Especially 'cause Allison cares 0% compared to me.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: So, you know...
Christine Schiefer: She's like, "I don't care. I didn't even remember that we didn't do my birthday."
Em Schulz: No, she... We, we've talked about it quite a lot. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Oh, oh, she definitely remembers. Okay, got it, got it, got it, got it.
Em Schulz: Not in like a fight way, but it's become a running joke of like, "Hey, so when are we doing my birthday?"
Christine Schiefer: Oh, funny.
Em Schulz: And at and this point I'm like, "Are we just celebrating last year?" and then I... It's... Anyway...
Christine Schiefer: You gotta do double. I get... I see what you're saying now. It's just, it's come to a, to a head. You have to commit this year.
Em Schulz: The pressure's on. So anyway, that's why I drank. What was the question you had?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so well, I thought since we've done our podcast for so long and we never really, um, talked, I don't think we did, maybe we did earlier, or maybe we do every year and I just forget, but I feel like I've never really asked you like what Halloween was like for you as a kid, you know, and like your favorite costumes.
Em Schulz: Oh, that's lovely.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sure, I'm sure we talked about that before, like our favorite costumes, but I'm curious like what your Halloween was like as a kid. Like what did you guys do?
Em Schulz: I feel like we're falling in love all over again. It's nice.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I feel like this is one of those like partner, like where you pick a card out of like a deck that says like, "Ask your partner questions."
Em Schulz: I, I, I, I...
Christine Schiefer: Icebreaker.
Em Schulz: Appreciate being... I appreciate your curiosity, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. I was wondering today, and then I was like, "Why don't I just ask? Stupid." That was me... That was Gef talking to me.
Em Schulz: You know... And I actually don't know what it was like for you either. I just imagine some like crazy like German folklore situation.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: You're correct. You're correct. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like Krampus snuggled up to you or something. Um, so yeah, I don't know what yours was like either. Um, mine was, um, well the school always had like a Halloween parade situation.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I always... It should have been obvious much earlier on, Mom, but I always picked very masculine-presenting costumes.
Christine Schiefer: You weren't like Jasmine, like every other girl in uh AJ...
Em Schulz: No. I was always something either in like, like mad scientists, vampire, Star Wars, Batman territory.
Christine Schiefer: Cute.
Em Schulz: Um, and...
Christine Schiefer: Mom.
Em Schulz: Mom. Uh, and she goes, "I never knew. I never saw it coming." Okay. Well...
Christine Schiefer: "I never knew." [laughter]
Em Schulz: I guess you just walked around with your eyes closed. Um, so I, so I would always do like the Halloween thing. And then I don't know what the appropriate time was. Maybe I, like, I... No one ever told me like when the general time is supposed to start for Halloween. But we were pillowcase kids, not back, bag kids. Like, not like bucket kids. Um, so my mom and I would take a pillowcase and walk through our neighborhood and a lot of the neighbors were also kids I went to school with. So we all knew each other. So like the parents met up.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And I think this was Halloween, I'm pretty sure. It's just been so long now 'cause I have, don't trick or treat anymore. But a lot of the moms would all get together at the cul-de-sac and drink wine while... [laughter] Like they would bring out their lawn chair and a bottle and...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.
Em Schulz: They would just say...
Christine Schiefer: And hand out candy.
Em Schulz: And since they're, since they were at the end of the cul-de-sac, they could look directly down the entire street and they would just watch all of us go from the door-to-door.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's like kind of ideal, huh?
Em Schulz: Yeah. And then usually it was my house, but I remember the kids coming over and hanging out in the basement afterwards and doing the candy exchange thing, so...
Christine Schiefer: Aww. How much candy would you get? Like a ton?
Em Schulz: Um, like a third of a pillowcase, half a pillowcase.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's pretty good.
Em Schulz: It's pretty good. Um, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: What was your favorite costume from growing up? Like, did you have one where you're like... Or which one is epic?
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Are we on like a fucking first date? What's happening?
Christine Schiefer: Well, 'cause... I don't know. I'm just curious. And I feel like, um, if I don't ask now, I'll have to wait another year.
Em Schulz: I'm... No, I'm flattered. I'm just like, oh my God, the attention's on me. Um, I like wanna make a good impression on you.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe I need to dress like, uh... Maybe I need to dress like Gef more often. It like changes my personality somehow.
Em Schulz: Uh, yeah. Yeah. It's... Well, and then also show your shoulders apparently, I guess.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I'm like really flustered on this first date.
Christine Schiefer: [giggles]
Em Schulz: Um, uh, what was my favorite candy? I was a Milky Way kid.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Yummy.
Em Schulz: Nowadays it's still in my like top 10, but it's... I think I've, I've definitely fallen into Take 5s. I like Twix.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I like a Take 5 and a Twix.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I like it all. I don't know. Who am I kidding?
Em Schulz: I don't like anything with nuts. I, I tried to be like a Snickers kid, but it just didn't work out. So um...
Christine Schiefer: I like the texture better with nuts, but...
Em Schulz: I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I don't like Heath bar. I don't like malt...
Em Schulz: Ugh, me neither.
Christine Schiefer: Or like Butterfinger, blah.
Em Schulz: My dad was always...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, look at my tongue.
Em Schulz: You look like an actual cryptid. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Holy shit, I look like... Hold on, let me get him. Where'd he go? Oh, he fell. Krampus. Oh, here he is.
Em Schulz: You're inverted.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I feel like I need to be Krampus for Halloween next year.
Em Schulz: He's got a black body, you got a black tongue, vice-versa.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God, look at us. Ah!
Em Schulz: Um, speaking of Krampus and what I imagine is your life in a haunted castle above a cemetery, um, which was reality, by the way, what on earth did Halloween look like for you? Because I imagine you were the House on Haunted Hill that everyone was scared to get candy from.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody ever came to our house. But also it was on a private drive and like up a hill that you had to walk past a very steep hill with a cemetery on the side. And there were no streetlights.
Em Schulz: Oh forget it.
Christine Schiefer: So like, nobody ever came. Or if they did, it was like, "Wow, you trekked all the way up here for just this house, you know."
Em Schulz: "For us to not give you candy 'cause we did not plan for this."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um, so nobody really ever came. But when we were like younger, we lived on a street with like tons of houses. And so it was, um, it was a riot. We always loved Halloween. Like it was a big deal. I had like countdown, I got like the...
Em Schulz: What was your...
Christine Schiefer: Oriental Trading catalog and would like circle everything I wanted. We didn't like actually order it, but just looking through it.
Em Schulz: That was what I did. I, I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't it fun?
Em Schulz: Maybe that was like, um, like a generational thing where like...
Christine Schiefer: I think that had to be a generational thing, right?
Em Schulz: Keep in mind, if you happen to be younger and listening to this, we didn't have online shopping. We had...
Christine Schiefer: The internet. [laughter]
Em Schulz: We had the like one or two catalogs that came into the mail.
Christine Schiefer: Like Pottery Barn Teen would come and we'd be like, "Woah!" [laughter]
Em Schulz: And you would get a Sharpie and you would circle all things you liked and you would like very obviously...
Christine Schiefer: And then what?
Em Schulz: Leave it somewhere and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, leave it on the counter and it would turn up in the trash. And I was like, "Mom, I circled all the things I want." She's like, "I know. Congratulations." [laughter]
Em Schulz: That was like... For Christmas, my mom would always be like, "Oh, here's some magazines. Circle what you want." And that's how I...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Would request things, otherwise, how would I know? Um, but, uh... Okay. So what was your like, your costume aesthetic for the most part, and what was... How did... What was it like for you, especially with a brother, and then a sister later?
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: Like, what was... Would you guys go out together? Did you like conspire at school with a group of kids, or was it just the two of you?
Christine Schiefer: It was always our neighbors, Celine and Austin and Sophia who are next-door neighbors and we always went trick-or-treating together. Our dads would always be the chaperones and they all... Uh, my stepdad and their dad would always dress up as train conductors. [laughter] I don't know why. I don't know if they...
Em Schulz: That's the most Tim thing I've heard in my entire life.
Christine Schiefer: It is. I... It is. And like, they were both engineers, like chemic or plastics engineers, so I'm like maybe they... And they like had worked together before. That's how my mom met Tim. So I'm like, maybe they had some weird meeting about... Like, I don't know why, but, and to this day, Tim always dresses as a train conductor. And...
Em Schulz: I, I...
Christine Schiefer: They had like, like the train whistle.
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: It was bizarre.
Em Schulz: I will say he looks like a drawing of a train conductor.
Christine Schiefer: He does. Imagine the suspenders. I mean...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's like...
Em Schulz: And the little ascot and shit.
Christine Schiefer: Nailed... The, the handkerchief nailed it. Yep.
Em Schulz: I feel like he... I don't know him well enough, but he also does give vibes of having a special interest in trains.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, he does. He does. And I feel like he would, and I wouldn't know it, and then one day he would just like say something really specific about trains and we'd all be like, "Of course you would know that," you know?
Em Schulz: Or, he'd be like, "Oh, come down to my basement," and he'd pull a dusty tarp off a big table and there's the whole city and tiny miniature train world.
Christine Schiefer: Literally, he's still like... [laughter] That is a... He's a very dad guy, you know.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He definitely likes trains and cars, all that business. But yeah, we'd always dress up. But we always had really weird costumes. Like, I know that doesn't surprise you, but like one year I dressed as my third grade teacher when I was in third grade.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And I wonder why I like never had friends at school. But like, I was such a dork.
Em Schulz: Girl, this is where I have to ask for the rest of us wondering. Did... Is this like your first clue that maybe you were... Did you have a crush on her? Is that where we are?
Christine Schiefer: The the problem was she was like 85. [laughter]
Em Schulz: That doesn't mean anything to some people, you know?
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't, but like, it was definitely just me being like, I don't know, sucking up to my teacher... Well, she and I also used to email to each other a lot. It's... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Girl, please, you were having a love affair. You would totally... Either you had a crush on her or a therapist would deep dive into why you felt so safe with her, you know.
Christine Schiefer: I think... [laughter] I think I definitely also had a... I had... You know...
Em Schulz: Or people-pleasing complex maybe.
Christine Schiefer: Em, there are a few things looking back where I'm like, "Huh, that's interesting." Like one year I was Harry Potter and everyone was like, "Oh, you're Hermione," and I was like, "No, I'm Harry Potter because I... " I think like, I was kind of in love with Hermione, so I thought like, "Oh, if I'm Harry Potter... " [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like... I don't know. And then there were also, um, some things where one year I just dressed up as a boy. Nowadays I'm like, that's...
Em Schulz: Girl, me too. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, [laughter] I know. I know. I'm like the...
Em Schulz: I still do it. I know.
Em Schulz: Right. I remember I Sharpied... I took Brown Sharpie and drew myself like a nice little, some facial hair and it didn't come off for like two weeks. Um...
Em Schulz: Do you know how affirming it was the first time I drew a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I bet.
Em Schulz: Beard on my face? And then...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I bet.
Em Schulz: And then like my... I heard like the door open and my mom came home and I was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no!" [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "Oh no. Why did I use brown Sharpie?" [laughter] Oh boy. Anyway, uh, it... You know, it was always very chaotic. One year my mother did... So she always like made our costumes, but one year she finally broke down and bought me a costume out of a catalog...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And it was, of all things, a cheerleader costume with like...
Em Schulz: Oh my gosh.
Christine Schiefer: Sequins on it. And like...
Em Schulz: Did you like it?
Christine Schiefer: I loved it. I was probably like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Seven or so. And there's this photo of me and like... It looks like I'm just, I don't know, in heaven. And I have like, for the first time ever, my mom put like a tiny bit of blush on my face. I was so happy.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Um, so that was like the most memorable, even though, you know... Yeah, I... We just fucking love... We used to come home like genuinely with like humongous... Like our stepdad's are all... Or my stepdad is also very like dad in that he's like, "Let's find the perfect route and get as much candy as possible." And so we'd like take shortcuts and, you know, run from one street to the next. And so we would come home with like... I mean, it was like pillowcase-fulls plus more. It was crazy. And then we'd like count them all. It was so fun.
Em Schulz: It's the one... It's the time a year when you don't like feel embarrassed by your dad because his like weird, lovely...
Christine Schiefer: Finally, yes. Yes.
Em Schulz: Practicality is coming in handy. Like it's like, "Oh, you're gonna like take us on a fucking candy adventure."
Christine Schiefer: It's like the first time I cared about a map. I couldn't read it 'cause I still don't understand how they work. But like, it's the first time where I thought, "Okay, Tim's writing down a map that I'm actually gonna follow." Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. "For once I think [laughter] I will learn how to use a compass." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Such a good point. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like all... 'Cause he's embarrassing... Like any dad is embarrassing...
Christine Schiefer: It is, yeah.
Em Schulz: Most of the time until all of a sudden you're gonna get a pillowcase full of candy by the end of it.
Christine Schiefer: Extra Milky Way to bring home. Yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So, uh, yeah, we just loved Halloween. I just figured you also had like... And it was the same thing where my mom and her, uh, our neighbor's mom, while our dads were train engineers or whatever, they would sit on my mom's porch and drink wine out of like a giant, they call it like the big giant bottle, um, and eat candy and just like hand it out and drink and wait for us to come home.
Em Schulz: Was there... Did you then become the, um, chaperone when your sister showed up?
Christine Schiefer: No. Tim still did that because then I was old enough that I wanted to go out to bars. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Alright.
Christine Schiefer: I went once with her and she was a raccoon princess and I was like, "I don't know what that means, but you're doing a good job."
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] It's like, "You're a very pretty trash panda." Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So... "You're a very pretty trash panda princess with a staff and like a horn, you know. You're doing it really great. Um, but I have to go drink Coors Light with my new boyfriend, Blaise." Um...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So, I was not always the best at being an older sister. But now I sit in the front of my house with a bottle of wine with my mom and we eat candy and hand it out and it's really fun. I'm like, "Oh, I kinda get it now. I get the... "
Em Schulz: Full circle.
Christine Schiefer: I get the desire to just sit there and, uh, you know, look at cute kids' costumes and drink wine. It's the best.
Em Schulz: Is... Is next year... Uh, this is... Again, I know nothing about children. Is next year like the first trick-or-treating year for Leona?
Christine Schiefer: You know, I don't... I don't know, Em. I'm not really sure, but I think so. I feel like this year we might like kind of walk down the street, but like, I don't think...
Em Schulz: I mean, she's not gonna remember it.
Christine Schiefer: She doesn't really know it, like get it. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yeah. But like four-year-olds I think like eat that shit up.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I feel like that's when she's gonna be like, "Oh. I understand how this works. I get candy."
Em Schulz: Yeah. We'll, we'll have a new little addition to our coven, maybe. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy. Yeah. Oh boy. Uh, yeah, if you ever wanna come over...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you don't do it next year...
Christine Schiefer: Come over here and be a chaperone.
Em Schulz: Yeah. If you... If...
Christine Schiefer: Feel free, 'cause I don't wanna do it.
Em Schulz: You at least gotta do it by four, I think, so...
Christine Schiefer: Alright. I got some time.
Em Schulz: Cool.
Christine Schiefer: Well...
Em Schulz: Alright.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you for asking and thank you for answering my... [chuckle]
Em Schulz: No. I, I...
Christine Schiefer: My surprise questions.
Em Schulz: I mean, I'm sorry to everyone else who just listened to us like, like...
Christine Schiefer: For 40 minutes. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Like just, um, learn all about each other again like it's the first time. But...
Christine Schiefer: Like we've just met. Did your mom dress up? Sorry, last question. Like, did your mom dress up every year or not really? 'Cause mine did not.
Em Schulz: No. No.
Christine Schiefer: She'd be like, had no interest.
Em Schulz: I don't think I even know if that was like a thing. I think like if we were hosting a Halloween party, and then I was expecting.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Fair point. I feel like... I feel like moms didn't really dress up unless like they were part of an event or something.
Em Schulz: I think if I asked my mom to, she would've done it. But I think she's also...
Christine Schiefer: I say 'cause I'm wearing a tail around my neck like a lunatic.
Em Schulz: I think she's very glad that um, I never asked her to do it. But...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Mine too.
Em Schulz: Had I known that was an option, I probably would have. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yep, yep, yep.
Em Schulz: I know when she was... I think up until like the year I was born, she was doing Halloween though 'cause I have a picture of her dressed as Wonder Woman. And by the way, she looked fine, like...
Christine Schiefer: Bangin'.
Em Schulz: She looked so damn good.
Christine Schiefer: She pulled that costume off, man. She looked good. I've seen that photo.
Em Schulz: Have you seen that photo? And my dad was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You sent it to me once.
Em Schulz: Superman's... The two of them both. I was like, "Okay, Justice League, what's going on?"
Christine Schiefer: Power couple. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. Well...
Christine Schiefer: For, uh, for, for a minute maybe.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I, I'm excited to tell you my story. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I can't wait.
Em Schulz: I was trying to think of something very Halloween-y and I led into it last week with talking about black cats. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: This time around I kind of did a bit of a shift. It's not like a classic Halloween, but I thought for Halloween, we should talk about something that's like dark and scary.
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: And so... But then... Anyway, let's just get into it because, um, I just wanted to try a topic that we haven't done before and I've been holding off on this um, 'cause I'm afraid that like, I'll be expected to like do uh, like a series. Like once I've done one, I should do all the others. But...
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: I don't know if that's the case. But we're starting with one today. I thought we should talk about one of the seven princes from hell.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: One, an, an arc demon, if you will.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my, my, my, my. I'm ready.
Em Schulz: So today for Halloween, we are doing a 101 on Beelzebub.
Christine Schiefer: Ah. Shut the fuck up. I feel like Gef, Gef's ears are ringing. He's amped for this.
Em Schulz: He's saying, "Oh, my buddy down there. Okay."
Christine Schiefer: "Oh, my friend." [laughter]
Em Schulz: So, let's [soda can cracking open] crack into it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, beautiful. I already opened mine, but you can pretend.
Em Schulz: I've been looking at this water...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no. I've been talking for 40 minutes. [chuckle] You're just thirsty.
Em Schulz: It's okay. I just wanted, uh, for the vibe, I was like, "I can't open it. I can't open it."
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay. So let's talk about Beelzebub. And by the way, I don't know if you know, but like history is very long and, um, there's a lot...
Christine Schiefer: History in general is long? Or his...
Em Schulz: In, in general, but also like...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: As long as Beelzebub's existence is also pretty long.
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, and it's also like very controversial. There's like a lot of hot debates on his origins. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Scholars don't totally know where he came from. So I'm giving like, if you wanted like a six-hour thing on the backstory of Beelzebub, I hate to break it to you, this is yet another dipping your toe in 101.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, otherwise it was gonna be way too overwhelming.
Christine Schiefer: I think we can all appreciate that though, as probably most of us are new to the, to the backstory of Beelzebub.
Em Schulz: I didn't know it at all. And so like my understanding up until this point, especially as someone who was not raised, um, in a Christian household, which in my mind means something different, um, I always assumed it was just a nickname for the devil.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right, right.
Em Schulz: I didn't know that he was his own demon.
Christine Schiefer: He's a separate creature. Creature?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yeah. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Entity? Being?
Em Schulz: Entity. Figure.
Christine Schiefer: Hottie?
Em Schulz: Icon.
Christine Schiefer: Hottie. Icon.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, that's it.
Em Schulz: For sure.
Christine Schiefer: That's the one. Yep.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Nailed it. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So, um, these days, he is wildly associated with Christian demonology. He is known as one of the seven princes of hell. And, uh, it's not a name for Satan. Like, it doesn't become conflated with Satan until the New Testament when Beelzebub, um, is... The name is used when talking, I think about... See, this is like immediately where it gets confusing because... And one way Beelzebub's being mentioned, uh, and it gets conflated with Satan, but also I think in Judaism, uh, Jews started using the word and conflating it with Satan because Satan at the time was a verb for, um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Satan wasn't a person. It was a verb for like temptation or, um, having a hard time like getting over something.
Christine Schiefer: A verb or like a noun?
Em Schulz: A verb. It was like tempting or, or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, really?
Em Schulz: Overcoming, overcoming temptation.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: So, and then over time kind of morphed into a figure. And so that's another whole theory. There's... I'm telling you, this was hard. This was, [laughter] this was hard.
Christine Schiefer: It seems very complex and... Yeah.
Em Schulz: So we're gonna go with kind of the mainstream stuff before I just get into nitty-gritty, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Fair.
Em Schulz: Um, so before all that, Beelzebub had roots in ancient Jewish, Christian and pagan lore. So his story is very difficult to pin down, but, um, starting out hot, there are a lot of variations to his name too that are all... They all vary by culture, by language, and they have their own histories, but sometimes you'll hear Baal Zebub, Belzebuth or Belzebuth and then Beelzebul. But if you hear anything like that...
Christine Schiefer: Woah.
Em Schulz: It all becomes Beelzebub. Um, mainly it's theorized that before he got wrapped up in like officially Christian demonology, um, like seen as a demon, he was actually a god. Uh, there is a story about Ahaziah in the Bible, which if you know more than I do, which I'm sure you do, please jump in. Um, but Ahazi... No? Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so. It's not ringing a bell yet.
Em Schulz: Let me teach you about the Bible then, Christine.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Finally.
Em Schulz: So Ahaziah was a ruler of the Kingdom of Judah and he suffered very badly from a fall. And he sent messengers to seek answers for him about his recovery. And he sent these messengers to the city of Ekron. Um, and I guess Ekron was, uh, a Philistine city, um, which was... They were a major enemy to the Israelites. Um, and so even though I guess they were enemies, he was like, "I don't care. I want to go... I want our... My messengers to go to the city of Ekron anyway, because I want advice from the god of Ekron, Baal Zebub."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: And so, um, Baal Zebub is a name that might have actually meant Baal of, B-A-A-L, not Ball...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Baal of Flies or Lord of Flies. So that's why he's associated now with flies and why, when you think of like the exorcisms uh, the exorcism stories out there, there's like flies everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: Amityville.
Em Schulz: Yes. They think that that must be one of his indicators that he's nearby. And so in Hebrew and Jewish literature, Beelzebub actually means Lord of Dung or Lord of Filth.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice.
Em Schulz: But those also often include flies, right? So...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Sure. That makes sense.
Em Schulz: So flies are, um, kind of his thing. If... If, you know, your stepdad is to trains, Beelzebub is to flies.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Listen, someone had to be the stepdad to flies and I guess it's Beelzebub.
Em Schulz: It's gotta be. So in ancient religions, Beelzebub is linked to, um... He's linked to sacrifice. So remember, he's like still seen as a God, right?
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: And he's linked to sacrifice because he's the one that would drive away or control flies when bloodshed appeared.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Okay.
Em Schulz: And for a long time, flies also symbolized plague, death and sickness. And although those sound like really dark things, he was still in charge of sickness, therefore preventing sickness.
Christine Schiefer: Therefore, like the opposite, right?
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And so maybe he could help with Ahaziah's sickness after he had this fall and he had these injuries. So that's why he sent his messengers to this god, because he is the god of sickness and health.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Um, but like I said, Ekron was a Philistine. Am I saying that right? Philistine? Not Philistine?
Christine Schiefer: I think so. I don't know. I was wondering that too.
Em Schulz: I... I looked it up and I... On YouTube, a lot of people were saying Philistine, but maybe they're also all like me.
Christine Schiefer: Philistine, Philistine, Philis... Maybe you are a Philistine and that's why you're saying it wrong. Philistine, Philistine. I think that's fine. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: With all the authority that that holds, I think that's fine.
Em Schulz: Alright. [chuckle] Like if you... I'm sorry this isn't the church you were looking for. If someone's upset that I'm saying Philistine wrong, I'm trying. Um, so he was the god of Ekron, which was a, or Ekron, which was a Philistine city, again, major enemy of the Israelites. And Ahaziah's messengers were supposed to go anyway and meet one of Baal Zebub's oracles so that way they could...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Ask what Baal Zebub could do for their king. But they get stopped along the way and they don't actually get to meet Baal Zebub. And that's because the god of, in Israel was mad that Ahaziah didn't go to him for help and instead he went to the god in Ekron.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's not a good look.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So he sends, uh, an angel to, uh, Elijah, this guy Elijah, and he has the angel... It's like such a fucking long game of telephone. Like this is where I get confused with Christianity. I'm like, "God, could you not just like send a text directly to Ahaziah?"
Christine Schiefer: Can't he... Right. Like, can't you just say it, you know, make it easy?
Em Schulz: Like this is... You're so messy. Like why are you telling the angel to tell Elijah to tell the messengers to tell Ahaziah...
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like you want to be part of the drama. I mean...
Em Schulz: Like girls, like didn't...
Christine Schiefer: I'm just saying what it looks like.
Em Schulz: If you create everything including the fucking problem, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter] Woah. You heard it here first.
Em Schulz: Woah. Loaded statement.
Christine Schiefer: Woah. Woah.
Em Schulz: I'm sorry.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not part of this anymore. [laughter] That was all Em.
Em Schulz: All I'm saying is in this scenario, you sound like a little bit of a shit stirrer. I'm just saying.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's correct.
Em Schulz: So he, he... And also like, you're mad that... Okay. Whatever. So he's upset that like, he wasn't like discussed with or talked to. So he tells the angel, "Go to Elijah. Tell Elijah to go to the messengers and tell the messengers to tell Ahaziah a message from me, but I couldn't possibly fucking say it myself, even though I'm God." Um...
Christine Schiefer: "And make sure you get it right." Okay.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, just slip a note in the locker, Jesus Christ. Like... [laughter] It's like, "Just be done with this."
Christine Schiefer: Don't you come in dreams? Just like whisper it. Whatever.
Em Schulz: Like, honestly, no wonder Ahaziah didn't wanna talk to you. You know what I'm saying?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I get it. It's... No offense, but like, it seems like he needed some more urgency and you're taking things like the long way for no good reason.
Em Schulz: The long way. You're making a lot of stops at gas stations on the way to the destination.
Christine Schiefer: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
Em Schulz: So, okay. So God's mad. He tells them, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, the angel finds Elijah, says, "I've got a message for Ahaziah, but I, like God, am not going to say it directly. So you have to go do it for me." And Elijah finds the king's messengers along the way because remember, they're going to Ekron to talk to a middleman for Baal Zebub. All these people are so fucking messy.
Christine Schiefer: Right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, but Elijah and the messengers find each other and Elijah says, "Tell Ahaziah that he has to talk to God." And it's like, oh my God, like we... Like that's not even helpful.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for God's sake.
Em Schulz: Exactly. So, um, "You have to talk to the God of Israel. He's mad at you."
Christine Schiefer: Hm. Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: So Ahaziah's messengers tell Ahaziah this and Ahaziah is pissed that Elijah disrupted them from this whole goose chase to find somebody who could help him.
Christine Schiefer: Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Em Schulz: So he refuses... He's basically saying all the things I'm saying right now and he refuses to consult God. He's like, "This is crazy. Like, this is so petty."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, this makes God mad, um, and God goes back to Elijah, and then tells Elijah again, "Tell Ahaziah something for me since... "
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: "Ahaziah's mad at me now I'm mad at him, even though I was mad before, tell Ahaziah since you went to a different god than me, you're gonna die."
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Which is like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh-ho-ho-ho-ho. It's hard to mess that up during the game of telephone. Like, "You're gonna die... "
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's like pretty clear message. At least there's no like ifs, ands, or buts about it this time.
Em Schulz: Also like, why go... Why... Like Elijah at this point has to be like, "Why don't you just kill him? Like, why do I have to go... " Right.
Christine Schiefer: Just tell him and...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: "It's like so awkward that I have to go tell him that."
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] It's like, let's just... "You're putting me at a tough spot... "
Christine Schiefer: Seems like a lot of work.
Em Schulz: "Because you don't wanna confront him."
Christine Schiefer: Seriously.
Em Schulz: Um, so, anyway, some believe that in this whole story, uh, because Baal Zebub's origin was like him as like this Philistine deity, that must have made him a natural god... A natural enemy of God in Israel.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: And so because it was God versus Baal Zebub, uh, it led to him over time being seen as a demon because he was the enemy of God.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I see.
Em Schulz: Which I feel like the role...
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause God was mad that they, that they talked to him instead of... Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Like, so God was jealous of him and now he's a demon...
Christine Schiefer: He's jealous.
Em Schulz: Like, talk about a PR stunt, like smear campaign.
Christine Schiefer: Wow! I mean, and it worked. It worked.
Em Schulz: It worked. You know... And by the way, Baal Zebub... Keep in mind, Ahaziah sent messengers to talk to an oracle who they never even got to, so the oracle...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Never even got to talk to Baal Zebub. Baal Zebub didn't even talk to anybody in this whole story and now he's a demon? Like...
Christine Schiefer: He just like wakes up from a nap and is like, "Wait, what? Why... Why am... Why is my phone blowing up? Why is... "
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: "Why am I canceled all of a sudden?"
Em Schulz: Exactly. He's like, "I literally didn't even know these fucking people had a meeting with my guy. What are you talking about?"
Christine Schiefer: Like, "What? Where... " Yeah. I think that's really...
Em Schulz: And now he's the demon.
Christine Schiefer: Unfair, honestly.
Em Schulz: By the way, if there was ever a Bible class where it was discussed like this, I might have actually become a Christian. I would've been like, "Oh."
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say you're doing a really good job at like being God when you're like, "Tell him that I said I heard what he said and I think he's gonna die." I feel like you'd be very good if we did like a nativity play or something. Like you'd be really good at being the role of God.
Em Schulz: And then Baal Zebub was like, "Motherfucker!"
Christine Schiefer: I'll be Baal Zebub. I'll just sleep in the corner and wake up and be like, "What the fuck did I do?"
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It really like...
Christine Schiefer: Hover like flies. [laughter]
Em Schulz: If this is how it was discussed to me in youth group, I would've fully converted for the drama.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Same. I would've been all about the Bible study, man.
Em Schulz: It'd be like how I got into like my stories, my shows where it's like, I don't even wanna watch, but I have to know what happens next.
Christine Schiefer: Which stories? [laughter] Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, okay. So now we know where, in theory, Baal Zebub became a demon.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Um, he went from a deity who would protect people against illness to becoming this like, evil entity who sends flies symbolizing sickness to people. So now he's like causing plagues.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: Um, other scholars believe that his name comes from the ancient words, foe, enemy and adversary.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, wait, wait for it. Wait for it. "I have three spirits and their names are foe, faith and truth." That's one of the, um, Gef the Mongoose quotes.
Em Schulz: Wow! You really did find a way to fit that in.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why that's a quote from Gef the Mongoose, but it is. So you know...
Em Schulz: Are you just...
Christine Schiefer: Apparently, that's one of my spirits, foe.
Em Schulz: Hang on. Let me have a think. Are you just um, scanning the quotes over and over while I tell the story, looking for inserts?
Christine Schiefer: No. The one with foe I had in my head already, and then you said foe. So I went to the tab and I typed in control F and typed in foe and found it.
Em Schulz: Sneaky, sneaky. Well...
Christine Schiefer: That's the only one I remember, so it's not gonna happen again, unfortunately or fortunately.
Em Schulz: I understand. Well, eventually, the figure, Beelzebub, evolves from those words of foe, adversary to become an archdemon in religious lore.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Really blows up all of a sudden. Just like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, villain origin story.
Em Schulz: Villain of the century.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And I'm saying archdemon. Is that right? Because archangel, right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: Not archdemon.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. No, I think it's arch.
Em Schulz: Okay. So archdemons, for those who don't know, I didn't know, uh, I mean they sound like the head bitch in charge, it's, which is pretty much...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: How it is also explained to me on Google, which is they are leaders of the demonic hosts in hell. The same way that, um, like archangels are kind of in charge of the other angels in heaven.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Arch...
Christine Schiefer: They're like the manager level.
Em Schulz: Head bitch in charge.
Christine Schiefer: Supervisors. Yeah.
Em Schulz: One scholar named David, uh, Cielontko, he suggests that archdemons all actually started just as negative words and concepts that over time, figures were created to embody these words. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: By that theory, demons like just don't exist. They're just symbolic for negativity. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Interesting.
Em Schulz: So an example is Belial, who is another, uh, prince of hell. Or no. I don't know if he's a prince of hell. But he is, he is, he is an archdemon.
Christine Schiefer: He's in that crowd, crowd.
Em Schulz: They... They mingle at parties at the very least.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So um, Belial meant to be wicked or to stand against God and over time, a figure just kind of developed out of that concept and now Belial as a demon exists.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Um, or even Satan meant to, uh... Well, and I guess in ancient Judaism, it meant... What'd I say earlier? Like overcoming temptation? There's also...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The definition of Satan out being, um... Meaning to accuse somebody or to point out guilt and sins. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting. I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: And eventually, that role became known as Satan who accuses you of your guilt and your sins.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So perhaps Beelzebub also started out as a negative word and eventually evolved into just another archdemon. And Beelzebub shows up in the New Testament. This is what I was talking about earlier. He shows up in the New Testament when Jesus meets a man possessed by demons who couldn't see or speak.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Whoopsies. But never to fear, Jesus drove out the demons and he healed the man claiming that he exorcised him with divine power.
Christine Schiefer: That's like a very ableist story. Like he's blind, he must be possessed by demons.
Em Schulz: You don't say.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Sure.
Em Schulz: It's not only is something crazy wrong with him, but it is beyond the scope of the earth. It must come from above.
Christine Schiefer: No. [chuckle] God has to fix it.
Em Schulz: Yeah. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Or below. Correct.
Em Schulz: So, um, opponents of Jesus said that, "Okay, you use these powers to drive out the demons and heal him, but your powers must have come from a demonic place."
Christine Schiefer: A-ha. It's like any magic is bad magic. Like that kind of...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Head space. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's like, "You're not that special, girl, you know. [laughter] Like you are doing something shady and it seems a little evil and you know how to mess with demons. What's this about?"
Christine Schiefer: We see right through you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's not like you just woke up today and just learned today how to repel demons unless you know where this is coming from.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, likely story, my pa-, my pal.
Em Schulz: And there's actually...
Christine Schiefer: That's me being... That's me being, me being not a narc.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: My pal.
Em Schulz: My guy. My guy.
Christine Schiefer: My, my big guy.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: My big... My big, strong guy. Um, so his opponent said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that he, that he can drive out demons.".
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And Jesus says... This is like such boy math of... Okay. So he goes...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: "If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. Uh, how can... How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out?" Um, which basically he's saying... He's just saying...
Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, "Whatever you just said, fine. I give up."
Em Schulz: That also feels like a dude thing. It's like, if I see something kind of like vague and complicated, no one will like stop me.
Christine Schiefer: Really complicated. [chuckle] It's like kind of convoluted, but it sounds smart?
Em Schulz: It's like when... It's like when someone in tech is describing their job and I'm like, "You know what, it's better if you just don't say anything. I'll just agree."
Christine Schiefer: "You know what, you win." [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like...
Christine Schiefer: "Congratulations."
Em Schulz: I'd honestly rather... I'll pay you to not tell me what you do um, 'cause 'cause I don't need the headache. So, um, basically he's saying, uh, it makes no sense to use demon powers to chase away demons because demons don't fight each other. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Because they need each other or else their kingdom would fail. That's...
Christine Schiefer: Very true. Okay.
Em Schulz: Kind of the point he's getting at.
Christine Schiefer: Whatever you say.
Em Schulz: Um, I would argue that there's less logic when it comes to demonic energy, but you know, it's Jesus, so who am I to say anything? Um...
Christine Schiefer: Potato, potato, you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah. So this passage is significant though, because it actually names Beelzebub as a prince of demons and that makes him officially very relevant in Christian demonology.
Christine Schiefer: A-ha. Okay.
Em Schulz: So there's also the testament of Solomon. Do you... Has... Does that sound familiar to you?
Christine Schiefer: Yes. I actually know this one.
Em Schulz: Oh, great. So true or false, Beelzebub is involved in that?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I don't know that part. I only know the part with the baby.
Em Schulz: Oh, right. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Is that a different thing? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know. I'm... Look, I totally... I went off my notes and I tried my best and I'm, and I looked at multiple sources to make sure that all of this sounded right, but I wasn't... I didn't look in a Bible, you know? So...
Christine Schiefer: If I... [laughter] If I'm...
Em Schulz: I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: If I'm remembering correctly, like Solomon was a very wise king and...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: That was what he was known for. And, um, there were, there were two women who were claiming uh, mother... I'm trying to think of the right... To be the mother of this baby. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You don't have to. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And they were, they were arguing back and forth and they were trying to get the baby. They went to King Solomon and he said, "Okay, we'll cut the baby in half, and... "
Em Schulz: Oh yes, I know the story.
Christine Schiefer: "You each can have a half." And then one of the women said, "No, no, no. I'd rather she take the baby."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And then he said, "That means you're the real mother 'cause you don't wanna cut the baby in half," [laughter] which, kind of thinking about it, I'm like, would either one want whatever? Anyway, um...
Em Schulz: Like, who was gonna say...
Christine Schiefer: That's the story.
Em Schulz: "Yeah, I'll take the top half"?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Great plan. I want the one with diapers on it. Like, no, that doesn't make any sense. So that's a story I know. I uh... I'm delighted to hear that Beelzebub is involved somehow in Solomon's story.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So in it, apparently, Beelzebub declares himself the ruler of demons. I don't know how we missed this part. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh. That part was not relayed to me, unfortunately.
Em Schulz: Um, yeah, I think there... Maybe there's uh, a couple, um, accounts of King Solomon in here. And, and so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: He declares himself the ruler of demons and convinces humans to worship demons instead of God. Um, but Beelzebub also claims that he has the ability to cause jealousy and wars and incite murder. So, you know, bad luck, he shouldn't have led with that.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: But, um, we aren't sure though when it was written. It could have been sometime between 100 AD and 1000 AD. And it is... The whole testament of Solomon is rejected by scholars and often not considered religious canon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Fun fact. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Didn't know that.
Em Schulz: But it's still relevant because in the late Middle Ages, European writers got super into demonology and they kind of brought this back and used it a lot for their own writings about specific figures in hell.
Christine Schiefer: I see, okay.
Em Schulz: So then even though if it's, even if it's not considered canon by all religions, it's still well-known by all religions because it got kind of re-popularized.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Revamped.
Christine Schiefer: So... Revamped, yeah. And so Beelzebub was often written about and equated with Satan um, and they both essentially kind of have the same role as being, you know, a demon. I don't know how different you can really be, but, um, in my mind, I'm sure there's like uh, a whole group of witches out there who were like, they're very different, but...
Christine Schiefer: One has flies, one has... Yeah. I mean, come on, Em.
Em Schulz: But in my image of demon, I feel like you could put anyone's name to it and they all kinda, you know...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em Schulz: When, when one calls out sick, another can jump in real quick, you know.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. There's like a general throughline narrative, yeah, that connects them.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I get it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, in the 16th century archdemons became associated with the seven deadly sins, which we talked about in episode 316.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And this was... So 200 years before this was, um, when Dante's Divine Comedy came out and was like a really popular book.
Christine Schiefer: A banger.
Em Schulz: And so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: A banger of... It did not...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Not in its flop era. Um...
Christine Schiefer: No, certainly not. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So it was huge, and that's what, uh, got people really into seven deadly sins. And then by the 16th century, so 200 years later, archdemons became associated with these seven deadly sins.
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: Um, and that was kind of where archdemons really fucking thrived because now they...
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: Instead of being a vague demon that, you know... I guess he's not so vague if he's known for like sickness and, you know, he apparently either looks like a giant fly or is covered in flies at some point.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Um, he... It's now you can take like one word, one sin, and attribute it to each demon and they just kind of become more...
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: Part of the zeitgeist.
Christine Schiefer: Their identities are like narrowed down to like a core...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Concept. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's easier to remember. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So because there were seven deadly sins, they needed seven demons. So they had seven archdemons, um, that were linked to these. Do you, do you happen to know any of the associations?
Christine Schiefer: Aww. I should. I don't. I should. I feel like we covered this on Rituals once, or not covered it, but talked about it and I can't remember.
Em Schulz: So, um, the main one, the most powerful one is Lucifer, which...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Is another one. I forget that Lucifer and Satan are not the same person.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Those seem conflated to me all the time, but I guess they're not.
Em Schulz: So Lucifer is the Prince of Pride. Um, ironically, he's also the most powerful, although I wonder if he's just saying that because he's the Prince of Pride.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he might... [laughter] That's what he wants you to think.
Em Schulz: There's, uh, Mammon, who is the Prince of Greed. There's Leviathan, who's the Prince of Envy. There's...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Uh, Belphegor, who is the Prince of Sloth.
Christine Schiefer: Hm.
Em Schulz: Then there's Asmodeus the Prince of Lust, Satan, or Sathanas, who is the, uh, prince of...
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: I literally... My next bullet is, this reminds me of that TikTok song.
Christine Schiefer: I miss it. I miss seeing it on my feed every day.
Em Schulz: Oh, you know what's interesting? Okay. So Sathanas is the Prince of Wrath and Beelzebub is now the Prince of Gluttony, which we'll get into.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, okay.
Em Schulz: Interesting because I thought that song... If you don't know what we're talking about, on TikTok, there's um, there's uh, an audio clip that people were using a lot that was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like an, an orchestra sound of people singing different demons' names and it was like... "Belial, Behemoth, Beelzebub"
Christine Schiefer: It was so good. It's so beautiful. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Thank you. And, um... But I'm realizing Belial and Behemoth are not... Only four of those... The six that get mentioned in that song were archdemons. So I don't know why they picked those six.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe 'cause it just fit, it rhymed or something.
Em Schulz: Just sounded right?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Whatever. But fun fact, 'cause I always thought, oh, those must be like all the princes of hell, but...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: There's only six of them and two of them aren't princes or archdemons.
Christine Schiefer: For once, TikTok isn't factually true, which is hard to believe, but whatever.
Em Schulz: I honestly reject that.
Christine Schiefer: I reject that as well. You're, you're right.
Em Schulz: So the one to assign each archdemon with a certain sin was this guy named Peter Binsfeld, who was a big pro torturer witch hunter. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: He was very into the torturing people until they confess thing. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Sounds like he was into these demons for more than just like naming them, but whatever, whatever...
Em Schulz: Sounds like he was into studying them to justify any of his...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: His claims against women he didn't like.
Christine Schiefer: Sounds problematic.
Em Schulz: So I don't know why we take his word on this, [chuckle] but, but...
Christine Schiefer: For real.
Em Schulz: Apparently, he's the expert. So... Or it's at least what we now know them by. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And yes, Beelzebub is the Prince of Gluttony, which didn't totally make sense to me at first because I think of flies and sickness, because that's all we've talked about.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But he is associated with gluttony because he became so associated with unholy rituals in witchcraft. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: And I'll explain. So witches were thought to use their powers, we've talked about this a little bit in the past, but witches were thought to use their powers to overindulge in food and dancing and sex and ultimately overindulge in anything that Christian society was trying to limit or restrict. So...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: If Christian said, "Don't do this," or "Don't do a lot of it," witches were like, "I'm gonna do it in excess and there's nothing you can do about it."
Christine Schiefer: Hee-hee-hee, hee-hee-hee.
Em Schulz: "I'm gonna have my, you know... I'm not listening to you." [chuckle] So an example is that witches' gatherings were always described as like having excessive feasts and...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Eventually that leads into some terrifying blood libel situations because that their feasts included human flesh and blood.
Christine Schiefer: Babies and shit like that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which my next, my next, uh, bulletpoint, you're very on it, Christine, that...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for once. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, it is their big excessive feasts were seen as a perversion of the Eucharist because instead of a small taste of Jesus' blood and body...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: Witches were gorging themselves on blood and bodies.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I never thought about that. That's gross.
Em Schulz: It's gross, but... And I guess if you're in that mindset, it makes sense. Like I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I see that there's at least a bit of a connection compared to like...
Christine Schiefer: I suppose.
Em Schulz: Some other stuff. So yeah, the connection is that they are all about overindulgence, feasting on humans that are not Jesus' body. Um, and...
[chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: God forbid.
Em Schulz: And again, this, like I said, this got into blood libel because it was used to persecute, or, uh, persecute Jewish people because witches wanted the blood of Christian children for feasts and rituals and I guess they think the Jews would also be really into taking the blood of Christian children...
Christine Schiefer: Sure.
Em Schulz: For feast and rituals?
Christine Schiefer: That tracks, totally tracks.
Em Schulz: Because this fell under gluttony or this overindulgence, it was thought that of all the demons, Beelzebub would like this the most and hang out amongst witches the most. And, um, this made him a bit of an icon for the stereotype of witches who make deals with the devil for power.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um, because, uh... How do I... How do I put it? Well, I guess I should mention for there to be a more of a connection for people, I think we are stepping away from, um, uh, from Beelzebub representing sickness where we should also say that, um, he was also known to be able to command other demons. He was like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: The operator on the end of the line, if you'll.
Christine Schiefer: He really was the HBIC.
Em Schulz: Yeah. He was the one who was able to summon other demons or contact other demons or reach other demons. And so that's one of the connections that I didn't mention that he... That's why he's like the demon for witches because if they wanna summon demons...
Christine Schiefer: What a powerhouse.
Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. [chuckle] Exactly. So, um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And he happened... Because he was then associated with witches, I think he was then associated with gluttony. I think that's the...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: The line. Um, and so he became a bit of an icon because, uh, if witches wanted to make a deal with him, um, speaking of black cats last week, he is said to be the demon who would send a witch their animal familiar.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, good for him.
Em Schulz: Because he could summon dark, you know, forces. So he would be able to um, either bring you some sort of demonic familiar or he could bewitch an animal on earth to, um, be like, your, your medium uh, for him. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's kind of nice. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, Beelzebub, I want a cat for Christmas, but also...
Christine Schiefer: I love... Yeah.
Em Schulz: I really need her to be able to contact other worlds. Um...
Christine Schiefer: I want a cat for Christmas too. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So Beelzebub was apparently, uh, the SPCA, if you will. And...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice. He founded it.
Em Schulz: The witches say, "I need a friend," Beelzebub says, "Let me go through our system and see what I can find. Oh yes, here's a black cat for you." And then he would also give these familiars their gifts, again, 'cause he could summon that kind of, uh, magic or that kind of, magic wasn't the word, but power. So he often gave familiars the gift of flight, premonitions and/or shape-shifting. So full circle, he was once...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Considered the god of preventing illness and now he's helping witches spread plagues of torment to Christians. That's how he's now being seen.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. At least that like connects. I feel like a lot of the story, people were just reaching. But this...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, actually, I can see the connection.
[chuckle]
Em Schulz: I can see the, um, as you said earlier, the, the villain origin story of like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: There is one...
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "I was trying to help, but okay, fine."
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, "Okay, well I guess like, you don't want me to prevent sickness, I guess."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I guess so.
Em Schulz: This reasoning, um, kind of all started during... This is where sickness comes back in. Um, the reasoning of all this kind of started during the bubonic plague and people needed someone to blame. And so not only they didn't blame demons just yet, but they wanted to blame someone during this very heated, controversial time, so they blamed witches. And also, excuse me, they ended up, uh, later also blaming Jews and equating them to witches because they're anti-Christian.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. Why not?
Em Schulz: And because Beelzebub was helping them, this meant that the witches must be spreading sickness and that they were immune to sickness because they were in cahoots with the demons. So, which is like another fucked up thing that like... So if you didn't get sick from the plague and you survived, now we're gonna accuse you of a witch because you must be immune to this.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, 'cause like why did you... Why didn't you die? And it's like...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: You're being accused by someone who also didn't die, so seems like kind of a...
Em Schulz: Right. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Pot calling kettle black situation.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And I mean, I guess you're a man who survived the plague and you don't like a woman who survived the plague.
Christine Schiefer: That is true.
Em Schulz: Imagine if you're like uh, like a mad married couple that both survived the plague and he's like, "Shit, like she's still here. Oh, I know. Witch."
Christine Schiefer: Oh man. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know. So, uh, it is believed that Peter Binsfeld, who created the connections between demons and sins, um, he died of the plague and that only helped like spread rumors that witches just got him back for...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, geez.
Em Schulz: Telling on them, I guess. So, although few were probably actually doing this back then, a lot of modern occultists today actually do work with Beelzebub. And um, because we're trying to reclaim his original title, he is not all bad. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay. I like that.
Em Schulz: He's said still... I mean, he's like known to be an archdemon, so he's not someone to be summoned lightly. Um, you have to like know what you're doing. Oops. Can you imagine his, his bio? He's like, "I'm not to be summoned lightly."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and it was like, "Okay, guy, calm down."
Em Schulz: Relax.
Christine Schiefer: Relax.
Em Schulz: So he is said to be helpful when it comes to overthrowing or escaping from an abusive person. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting.
Em Schulz: I wonder if that's because of like mental health. Like, I don't know if we're like stretching the word sickness, the stretching the word health, but um...
Christine Schiefer: Fair point. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh, oh no, I actually... I do know the answer to this. It's because he's also, um... He's the demon of... Oh, I didn't write it in my notes, uh, about, um...
Christine Schiefer: Conflict or something?
Em Schulz: Yeah, like something like he's like, he's for, for the tyrants or something like that. So like if you're like running from an authority figure or something like that.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, yeah, that would... That makes sense. Okay. So, he's helpful when trying to escape from an abusive authority. And some say he's also helpful, uh, still in contacting him about like improving your health or to cast a powerful protection over your body, which I guess is, again, we're stretching like your health and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And your safety. So he's good at casting powerful protection. He can also be linked to rebirth in the circle of life.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. That makes some sense.
Em Schulz: Some people say... I saw like one blog, which like, this is... I, I liked where he was going, but I don't know how true this is. He was saying like, because he's involved in health, um, and he knows your body at a cellular level, if he's like the one that can prevent sickness, then like you can also use him in like rituals about biology. I was like, like...
Christine Schiefer: Which like, I'm sure he meant...
Em Schulz: Like your homework?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's, that's what I thought. I'm, I'm sure he means like some sort of like, if he's about rebirth, maybe like plants or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We're so stupid. We're like, "Oh, I need help with my Bio, AP Bio homework," and he's like, "That's not what I meant. I meant like I can help with cellular regeneration." I'm like, "Oh, okay. I don't know what that means."
Em Schulz: I was like, that makes it sound like Beelzebub has like beakers and is working with Iron Man or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like... But...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: He's like dissecting frogs. Actually, he might be doing that. That seems like something he might actually do, which is disturbing. Woah, sorry. A huge thunderstorm just started and it like...
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: Like hit the windows. Scared the crap out of me. It was very good timing. I feel like I'm, I'm in it now. Ooh.
Em Schulz: Um, even crazier because my next bulletpoint is that [chuckle] one of the things you can offer to him is storm water.
Christine Schiefer: Ah! Is what? Storm what?
Em Schulz: Storm water.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. You can have it. I'm not gonna take it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I think that's because of like the, the kind of... I guess in my opinion, it's like a bit of a stretch, but health equals... Health and rebirth can also mean like nature and plants and all that kind of stuff.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Fertile lands, all that business.
Em Schulz: So I don't know a situation where I would need this, but Beelzebub can also help you cast curses if you need that. Um, and he's also helpful when it comes to summoning other demons for rituals because that's one of his powers that he can command other demons.
Christine Schiefer: I see. And I can see why that would get dicey if you didn't really know what you were doing and you were uh, doing it out of anger or something and you wanted to cast a curse...
Em Schulz: Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: Or a hex, and then you involved an archdemon. It seems like it would probably work, but then it might come back to bite you or... I don't know. It seems like it would be a little messy.
Em Schulz: Like, and I, I can see why, I can see why religious conservatives would hear something like that and be like, "I don't wanna fuck around with witches."
Christine Schiefer: Totally.
Em Schulz: But like...
Christine Schiefer: Red flag.
Em Schulz: But at the same time, I was like looking for an example of why you would need to summon a demon through another demon and um, one of the examples was like to perform exorcisms is like you might need him to contact another demon for you and like be the mouthpiece to... I mean, I don't know how many witches are out there performing exorcisms, but like it's an example of what you could positively use a demon for, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right.
Em Schulz: Um, and interesting that that's even mentioned because when we covered the exorcism of Anna Eklund, which was episode 32 all those years ago...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm-hmm. Oh my God. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, Beelzebub is said to be the one who possessed her. So wait a minute. You can possess people, but also you could be called to help with a exorcism? I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: He's like, "Yeah, I'll be right there. I'm probably not the one in here. "Hold on, I'm coming." That's like so awkward.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: That's the funniest thing I think you've said all day.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That wasn't me. That was Gef and we all know it.
Em Schulz: No, that was Beelzebub inside of you. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.
Em Schulz: If you do summon him, you might actually also do the opposite of your request, um, or he'll do the opposite of your request to keep you on track if you don't listen to him. It's pretty much like if you woke me up from my nap, it better be fucking worth it. That's what his mentality is.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Okay. I get it. That I can relate to.
Em Schulz: Because a lot of people will reach out to him because they want to improve their life, improve their health, but if you're not gonna listen to his advice or accept his guidance, then he'll make things worse until you listen to him. So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I can see that. That's a fair, fair reaction.
Em Schulz: It's like, do this better and then if you don't, he's gonna be like, "You fucking got me outta bed for this?"
Christine Schiefer: "And why did you ask me?"
Em Schulz: Like, "No, no, no, no, no. No"
Christine Schiefer: Right. Yeah. "Why'd you even ask?"
Em Schulz: So the overall advice is summon him at your own risk um, and only when you're ready for his influence because otherwise things could be more chaotic for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And he will often appear as flies in unusual numbers and it bodes well for you to make an offering to him, including storm water. He also appreciates insects, taxidermy, composting and plants, I guess for the rebirth kind of thing.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. I just took the compost out today. And by I, I mean Blaise took the compost out. But maybe, maybe that's what's happening. The rain, the compost...
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's all making sense. Also...
Christine Schiefer: It's all making sense.
Em Schulz: Another offering is expensive alcohol because it would acknowledge his royalty as prince.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But the best offering...
Christine Schiefer: We get some Crown Royal from Target and put that out for you.
Em Schulz: He'd love it. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I, I only said that because when I was looking for crowns on the Target app, it kept bringing up Crown Royal and I was like, I'm not looking for that right now. I'm looking for a paper crown. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Well, my last note is that the best offering you can give him is healthy food because it symbolizes his space in health and sickness.
Christine Schiefer: That's weird, 'cause if he's the glutton, you'd think...
Em Schulz: That's a great point.
Christine Schiefer: It would be like...
Em Schulz: But keep in mind, that fucking, that fucking pro-torture witch hunter is the one who made that claim.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Fair point. So maybe he really isn't gluttonous. He's like, "I like soy milk."
Em Schulz: Maybe he is a glutton for healthy food.
Christine Schiefer: Okay...
Em Schulz: It could be both.
Christine Schiefer: That could be possible. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, especially of the healthy foods, apples is a good one for any demon because it represents the knowledge from the Tree of Life.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they like that shit. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And one blogger, 'cause I was like, "What about junk food?" one blogger who apparently has experience with Beelzebub...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Said he does not appreciate junk food, quote, "He won't even eat waffles."
Christine Schiefer: Hey now.
Em Schulz: I know. That's, honestly...
Christine Schiefer: Watch your mouth, blogger.
Em Schulz: I know it's Beelzebub, but that is my biggest problem with him out of everything so far.
Christine Schiefer: So we both ate frozen waffles today. I meant to tell you. I ate one for lunch with Leona. So, you know what, I have no... This is, this is nonsense.
Em Schulz: Talk about a full circle is that we ate waffles and then I'm ending my notes on waffles. So...
Christine Schiefer: Seems correct. That seems like how it was always gonna be.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway, that is Beelzebub.
Christine Schiefer: Wow! I genuinely did not know even 10% of that, I think. That is beautiful.
Em Schulz: I, I'm really... You know, and this was one of those topics where I'm scared to present it because while there's so many theories and while there's so much history and while there's so many people who know this topic better than me...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I mean, and including like people who read their Bible every day, or witches who have worked with him before, like I don't wanna say anything that like was wrong, but I was also giving like...
Christine Schiefer: People who read their Bible every day stopped listening a long time ago after the bullshit I say...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: About the Bible and pretend to know what King Solomon did.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I guess I, I'm more worried for the witches out there. 'Cause I'm, I am sure there's books and books and books just about this guy and I barely scratched the surface. But...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. But that's what this podcast's for.
Em Schulz: I think that's the gist. I think that's the gist of it.
Christine Schiefer: That's the... Yeah. I feel like this is just a... This is not a educational podcast in, in the grand scheme of things at least.
Em Schulz: It's, it's not often like a two or three-parter. So if I can't say it in 45 minutes...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: It's probably not coming out my mouth. So...
Christine Schiefer: That's right. That's right.
Em Schulz: But um, anyway, I hope for people who are not heavily into it, that it was, I hope it was uh, an okay crash course and if...
Christine Schiefer: I think you did a great job.
Em Schulz: If you know more than me, please, you know, let me know. So... Alright.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: That was Beelzebub.
Christine Schiefer: You did it. All I have to say is I am not evil. I could be if I wanted. You don't know what damage or harm I could do if I were roused to. I could kill you all, but I won't.
Em Schulz: I can't tell if that was Beelzebub, Gef or Christine. [laughter] That was too fitting, some might say.
Christine Schiefer: You'll never know. Okay.
Em Schulz: I feel like... Didn't we say something where we needed more merch with Gef um...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Gef talking or Gef... Something with quotes. I feel like just one quote isn't enough. We almost need like a post, like a motivational poster.
Christine Schiefer: Like he has so many good ones. Like this is me... This is... So I guess Jim was the guy whose house he lived in, but I'm gonna change it to the Em. Um, and it says, "Upon noticing that Jim was, that Em was reading the Bible, this is what Gef said."
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: "Look at that pious old atheist reading the Bible. He will swear in a minute." [laughter] It's me talking about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, reading the Bible. I know you're gonna swear at me in a second.
Em Schulz: Blasphemous.
Christine Schiefer: Nice try. Oh, boy.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I'm so...
Christine Schiefer: Put the bloody gramophone on.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm so proud of you, um, for dressing up, by the way. I feel so stupid. Didn't even occur to me to dress up. I was just...
Christine Schiefer: You look the most Halloween-y of all, trust me. Yours is way better.
Em Schulz: I was really... I was really proud of my sweater, but now I'm realizing like...
Christine Schiefer: No, I love your sweater.
Em Schulz: How stupid am I? I didn't fucking dress up for Halloween. It didn't even cross...
Christine Schiefer: But who cares? Oh my gosh. It's... This is October 5th. We're way early like recording this. And again, this was an hour before recording decision. [laughter] This was a very...
Em Schulz: I know, but now I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: This is not a planned thing.
Em Schulz: What do you... If you could dress me as anything for Halloween, or undress me Christine, what...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, la, la.
Em Schulz: Hubbawaba.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, la la. [laughter]
Em Schulz: What would you dress me as? Like, what's a costume you fucking wish I could deliver on, or you think I could deliver on?
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. I mean, you've already nailed Zak Bagans, like there's not even room to explore that again. I mean, you could be cute as a little Hot Stuff devil, you know?
Em Schulz: That's true. Maybe next year we, we...
Christine Schiefer: Hot, Hot Stuff.
Em Schulz: You wanna tag team it next year?
Christine Schiefer: Gasp. That would be cute. We could do Casper and Hot Stuff demon.
Em Schulz: I'll be Casper?
Christine Schiefer: You'd be Casper, I'd be demon. Oh, that would be really cute.
Em Schulz: You know what I think we should also do? We should tag team sometime as our Ghostie guys, our logo for our tour.
Christine Schiefer: Oh our fucking logo. That would be genius.
Em Schulz: We...
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: I mean, I could do that anyway 'cause that... Mine's a ghost. Yours is a skeleton though. So...
Christine Schiefer: Mine's easy 'cause I can just wear like one of those skeleton costumes and hold a glass of wine. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah, it's too easy. Except we don't have...
Christine Schiefer: But it would be fun.
Em Schulz: We don't have very comfy armoire chairs or whatever they're called. The...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, we could get our hands on those, some armchairs, some fancy armchairs.
Em Schulz: Armchairs. Not armoire chairs. I'm so fucking stupid. Um...
Christine Schiefer: You just said it fancier.
Em Schulz: Casper and Hot Stuff. That'll be us next year.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I love Casper and Hot Stuff. That's a great costume idea. TM, TM, TM.
Em Schulz: Cool.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Emothy, I have a kind of like a little hodgepodge for you today, like a smorgasbord, if you will!
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I have some Halloween pranks and some Halloween crimes.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: And...
Em Schulz: Oh, a trick or a treat.
Christine Schiefer: A trick or a treat. That's exactly right. Except it's sort of like a trick and a terrible homicide, but it's close enough. Um...
Em Schulz: Trick or really bad trick. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Or really, really... Trick or worse trick. Um, so here we go. Now, we've talked about some of this before Em, when you've done like history of, you know, certain like carving Jack-o'-lanterns and that kind of thing. Like there are a couple little nods to your past notes, but I figure since you and I barely remember what we've said, and I assume most people have moved on with their lives after they listen to an episode, I'm gonna say them again for fun.
Em Schulz: Wee!
Christine Schiefer: So as you can probably imagine, the relationship between Halloween and criminal mischief goes back for centuries.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Halloween, uh, was actually traditionally believed to come from the ancient pre-Christian Irish Fire Festival, Sa, Festival, Samhain, which, um, we once said Sam... I said Samhain, or I don't know. We said it wrong at one time and everyone kindly corrected us, Samhain, which now we know very well. Um, it was believed that fairies and the dead could more easily access our world on Samhain and cause trouble for living humans. Sort of like the veil is thinner at that time. This belief persisted after the Christianization of Ireland and there were stories about the Púca coming to collect your leftover harvest, shape-shifting fairies sneaking into your barn, shape-shifted as rabbits to steal your cow's milk unless you blessed the door with holy water, then they can't come in.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh. Oh.
Christine Schiefer: It's just, uh, there's a lot to remember. And you know, people celebrated Halloween, but it was also like you had to be very cautious around Halloween. You had to be on your toes. You had to look for mischief from people and from, uh, not people, creatures, magical creatures.
Em Schulz: All walks of this life and other lives. [laughter] Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And the other life, yeah. [laughter] In more recent centuries though, Halloween became a night for playing games at home to predict how your year would go. Like, I don't know if you remember covering this, but some of those like young girls...
Em Schulz: I do.
Christine Schiefer: Would play like games to figure out who they would marry and all that kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Was it like bobbing for apples and like...
Christine Schiefer: Which is... Yes!
Em Schulz: Each apple is a different guy...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Or something? What a nightmare.
Christine Schiefer: It was something... Yeah, you'd write the name on a piece of paper. I don't know. Some ridiculous game. Um, but you could also predict how your year would go, like would you get married? Would you emigrate? Would, would you, would you... I feel like nowadays that's not really as relevant, but back then in Ireland, would you emigrate...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Maybe to some. I don't know. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, maybe. Uh, would you become rich? And it also became tradition, which I like, to give gifts to your less fortunate neighbors who would come collecting alms. They would come to your door.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So all the while, people remembered the old stories of Samhain and kept an eye out for wandering spirits into any trouble that might come their way. And eventually, as part of alms-giving, people would start wearing masks and costumes as like just a way to entertain as they walk door-to-door seeking like little handouts, like little gifts.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And children, especially boys, would dress up and go to houses in disguise to perform tricks and sing songs in exchange for cakes and other treats. And I feel like you've covered that where they would go sing, sing a song and you'd have to like guess what they are...
Em Schulz: It was like essentially Christmas caroling, but like on a different...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: A different taste of it, a different flavor.
Christine Schiefer: Bring back Halloween caroling, okay. Let's do it.
Em Schulz: I love that... Can you imagine just knocking at, on your... They would call the police. If they... [laughter] If you knocked on someone's door and started singing Love Potion Number Nine, they...
[vocalization]
Christine Schiefer: They did the mash. Yeah. They did the monster... Yeah. I love it.
Em Schulz: They'd be like, 51-50 immediately. Like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I... [laughter] I'd, I would be the only one to open the door and be delighted. But I think everyone else might be upset.
Em Schulz: If I saw that through a peephole, I would be like, I am lock locking this door, never opening ever...
Christine Schiefer: Kids, hide under your bed. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Others would paint their faces to look as strange as possible and children in Scotland engaged in something called guising, like G-U-I-S-I-N-G, which is a tradition of dressing up to blend in with the spirits who are out and about, which I love that idea, though. Like you're out and about with the fairies and other spirits.
Em Schulz: And I... Yeah, I feel like that's not even... I mean, I see how quickly it can be diluted into like a fun kid thing, but also like the spiritual, the meaning behind it is actually like so beautiful...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Of like, "Oh, we're all... "
Christine Schiefer: I really like that too.
Em Schulz: "Amongst each other."
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like we all, we all mix together. You can't tell us apart. I really like that as well. Once several countries made a tradition for kids to hit the town in masks after dark, we had to worry less about shape-shifting fairies and more about children on the loose and running [chuckle] from house to house. So, you know, the priorities shifted a little bit, understandably. Now here, uh, is a little recap on some Halloween crimes that you covered last year, Em, uh, as far as Halloween traditions go. In 18th century Ireland, kids began going out on Halloween to steal cabbages from...
Em Schulz: A-ha.
Christine Schiefer: Neighbors' gardens. This is one of my favorite...
Em Schulz: I forgot about this.
Christine Schiefer: Fun facts. And they would knock on the door shouting Halloween night, and when someone opened the door, they would chuck the cabbage into the house and just run away. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I totally forgot. You know, I...
Christine Schiefer: Which is my dream prank to do to somebody.
Em Schulz: But not to have done to you, because that's a baseball coming at you. That's a bowling ball.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I could use... I can make some sauerkraut out of it. I, you know... When life... When kids hand you cabbages, make some sauerkraut.
Em Schulz: This is why my imagery of you as a child in your German household on Halloween, [laughter] because your mother would totally be like, "I'm just gonna make some sauerkraut out of this."
Christine Schiefer: Oh, for sure.
Em Schulz: But like, I, I feel like, like I wanna know the size of these cabbages. Like, are they just still Brussels sprouts or are they fucking cabbages?
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm picturing like these guys, like these, like these really weighty ones, you know, that are like, I don't know, uh, eight inches big and they're really hefty, and you could just... You could palm it and just chuck it.
Em Schulz: See, I... And I don't even know which would be worse because if, you know, like the smaller they are, the more like of a projectile they are. But like, if it's...
Christine Schiefer: True.
Em Schulz: Like you could get pelted with Brussels sprouts and it feels like little rocks. But if it's one big thing...
Christine Schiefer: Ugh, true.
Em Schulz: Can you dodge it? Like are there kickball rules here where like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, I also wonder...
Em Schulz: Or do you... Can you catch it? Can you throw it back?
Christine Schiefer: And one annoying thing would be if it... If you throw it hard enough, a cabbage I imagine, would kind of create uh, a mess.
Em Schulz: It wouldn't be eatable.
Christine Schiefer: It would be like...
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: It would be ex... Little explosion projectile of mini-cabbage. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Also, what if you have pets? Can they eat raw cabbage? Like what... It's a mess. It's... You have to be ready with the dust pan if you have pets.
Christine Schiefer: Hm. I imagine they can probably eat cabbage 'cause they eat broccoli. But Gio would not go near a cabbage unless it was covered in a dead animal or something, um, and fully disgusting.
Em Schulz: What if you're not home that night, what if you're not home that night and someone leaves an old cabbage on your doorstep and now you have a rotting cabbage stink on your house?
Christine Schiefer: Stinky. That smells bad.
Em Schulz: That's worse than getting egged. That's... You smell like a, like, like a butt. You smell like a butt. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You smell like a butt. And uh, is there any way around it? No. Sorry.
Em Schulz: No. Only the, only the grossest-smelling foods that rot are the things that people are leaving on people's property.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, eggs and cabbages are like very bad-smelling, and broccoli, which...
Em Schulz: Eww.
Christine Schiefer: Could also be a fun addition. Um, so yeah, you'd throw a cabbage into the house. Delightful. I'm sure everyone was making sauerkraut that night. Uh, they practice...
Em Schulz: They had a very... They had a very fancy lamp on the table next to the door and now it's shattered.
Christine Schiefer: Now they'd... Oh, you'd be in trouble. Oh, oh, oh boy. Yeah. So this practice, uh, came to the US briefly, and it was at some, one point, such a problem in Massachusetts that Halloween, October 31st, was briefly known as Cabbage Night instead of Halloween.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, that is a delight to me.
Em Schulz: Wait. Where was...
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: What was... Regionally, where was it called?
Christine Schiefer: Massachusetts.
Em Schulz: Okay. 'Cause I've, I've taken the, um, dialect quiz and I've always seen that as an option...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: And I'm like, "Where the fuck did they say that?"
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's where we both lived. If I had known that... Remember I had a Halloween party in Boston that you came to and...
Em Schulz: We literally lived across the street. If I knew about Cabbage Night, I would've chopped a cabbage right into your fucking face.
Christine Schiefer: I would never have gotten a fucking security deposit back from that apartment. [laughter] Oh, boy. So eventually, toilet paper became the cheaper and probably easier-to-access alternative to throwing a literal cabbage into people's homes. Uh, so on top of toilet paper, kids started vandalizing churches with molasses, painting entire houses black in the night, committing arson, throwing flour at random passersby and setting off literal pipe bombs in public places or private properties.
Em Schulz: Hm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So one Halloween flour attack, for example, involved a group of 200 boys. Like this is how out of hand things got. Then in 1930, some kids in California greased so many streetcar rails that special crews had to respond in Oakland because the cars were skidding off the tracks. So now this is becoming like a public emergency and also like threatening people's lives.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So people were very uh, frenzied about trying to figure out what to do about Halloween. And some people were even shooting at children who trespassed on their properties, or even just around Halloween who were near their property to try and scare them off. In 1930, one city was so desperate to curb youth crime and endangerment that the police considered handing over temporary police badges to as many as, this is like not a joke, as many as 500 "bad boys", quote unquote, who were supposed to use their powers for good. Like a...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: A catch-me-if-you-can situation. I don't know. Like they knew...
Em Schulz: Like a...
Christine Schiefer: How to try and curb the... Like they, they joined forces with the police. Uh, and so they would...
Em Schulz: Like give them... Give them a, um... Uh, give them a title or give them power and...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Maybe they'll...
Christine Schiefer: Like a special clearance and uh, some power, and then they can tattle on their compatriots to the police. Um, it just reminds me of like a prefect in Harry Potter is all I could think about, like Percy the prefect who like, just tattling on everybody, you know.
Em Schulz: I... It's like, we'll turn the, we'll turn all the bad kids into vigilantes and make...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, great idea. We'll give them police badges. Okay, that seems like it's gonna work great for you.
Em Schulz: It's like, have we never heard of like, what's it, the Milgram or the Stanford exam... What... The experiment where like they...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yes.
Em Schulz: Let people pretend to be cops, and then they like got all fucking abusive, like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Like prisoners and, and jailers, and then it got so out of hand. Yeah, that's a great point. Great point. Have you also ever heard of Lord of the Flies, AKA Beelzebub? It's giving kids like the power to reign over their environment does not usually end well.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway, during World War II, things got a little more heated because pranks like letting air out of tires or putting soap on the windows was considered treason or sabotage because people were using valuable...
Em Schulz: Treason?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, 'cause it was the war...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: And so people were using valuable resources like soap and grease, which was like trying to be limited, you know, for personal use to be sent for the war effort. And so laws were actually passed criminalizing many Halloween pranks.
Em Schulz: Okay. That's why the eggs came into play, I think. They were like, "We don't have any soap, so... "
Christine Schiefer: At the end of that we're like, "Well, what are you gonna do with my eggs?" [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, "I got a chicken out back. I know how to use it."
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: "You can't stop me." In 1940, a man wrote to a newspaper columnist advocating for Halloween to be permanently banned. And in response, a columnist named Elsie Robinson wrote, "The only cure I know friend, is that of substitution. Let these worrying mothers get together and see that the young folk have their fun at home and be ghosts and witches, black cats, devils, or any wild thing that suits their eerie fancy." So...
Em Schulz: Good for her. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Essentially... Yeah. So essentially, she was onto something which is don't cancel Halloween, just like change gears, like shift it so that we're keeping kids out of trouble. And so that's why in the 1950s, Halloween underwent a major rebrand. Okay. They've revamped this whole situation.
Em Schulz: I love it. Like, who the hell is in charge of this rebrand?
Christine Schiefer: And... I hope it's Elsie Robinson, 'cause she was like on it...
Em Schulz: Onto something.
Christine Schiefer: From early on. Yeah. So trick-or-treating in the '50s became a beloved tradition. It was featured in media like the Peanuts comics. And so suddenly people, kids were wanting to trick-or-treat through the neighborhood in a much safer way than running around like hooligans throwing, I don't know, cabbages in people's windows. So people figured out that passing out candy mostly kept kids out of trouble and close to home. And it was basically bribery. Like, if you stay home and walk through your neighborhood, you'll get a shit-ton of candy if you come home at a reasonable hour. Um...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Legal action, criminalizing, none of that worked. So candy, just bribery with candy is what worked. [laughter] Uh, I'm telling you, Elsie knew it. But thousands of years of folklore and tradition does not die away easily. So many people were determined to keep the spirit of mischief alive on Halloween. However, unfortunately, some Halloween pranks in the US continue to go terribly wrong and have become full-blown crimes, even homicides.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: I have some examples. Uh, and they're upsetting. 'Cause I couldn't bring a story to you today without absolutely bumming you out, even though it is Halloween.
Em Schulz: Thank God.
Christine Schiefer: So on October 31st, 1998, a group of teenagers threw eggs at a car, which is a standard Halloween attack.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The driver was 21-year-old Karl Jackson, and he was a computer programmer from the Bronx and he had spent the evening at a children's Halloween party with his girlfriend and her nine-year-old son, Clyde. The couple were in the car on their way to drop nine-year-old Clyde off with a babysitter so they could go to another Halloween party when the eggs hit Karl's car just after 11:00 PM. Karl was known as a quiet person, but he was very, very upset by the eggs that had hit his car. And so he got out of his car to scold the teenagers, and then he got back in the car to drive away. But he had pissed off these teenage egg throwers and they were not done with Karl. After he sat back down in the passenger seat, one of them pulled a gun and shot him through the window.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: A bullet hit Karl in the temple and killed him.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God. And then a little kid and his girlfriend watched it happen?
Christine Schiefer: A little did and his mom, the kid's mom, yeah, his girlfriend watched it all happen. And I mean, just very shocking and tragic. And the kid who shot him, 17-year-old Curtis Sterling, was convicted of the murder and sentenced to 20 years in prison. And Karl's friends and loved ones were so shocked by this event that they could not believe it happened. His mother told The New York Times, "We were just devastated. We never thought that anyone from our family would be murdered, especially on a holiday for something so stupid."
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And she said it took her family several years to even talk about it because they were so stricken by shock and grief.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And according to a 2010 article, Karl's mother sent a Halloween card to Curtis every year in prison that said, "I'm glad you're still in there."
Em Schulz: Oh. Ooh. Do what you gotta do, girl, but damn.
Christine Schiefer: Getting dark.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Tragically... This is where... This part, I don't know, it's just somehow upsetting in a weird way that I didn't expect. So Karl apparently used to avoid Halloween festivities growing up because he was so scared of Halloween.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Isn't that eerie?
Em Schulz: That's eerie.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It really freaks me out. And he said they...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: They scared him, but he wanted his girlfriend's son to have fun so he agreed to take him to this Halloween party, even though he did not like to leave the house on Halloween most years. And as... Even as a teenager and a kid, he, he was scared of Halloween, which...
Em Schulz: Geez.
Christine Schiefer: Is just so dark. It just like adds such a heavy element to this, like an eerie, eerie feeling.
Em Schulz: And like now by accident has only perpetuated it for another...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Generation with that kid who's never gonna wanna leave.
Christine Schiefer: And for that child... Yeah, it's horrible. I mean, ooh, ooh, it gives me goosecam. So Karl's father even said, "A young life was snuffed out over nothing. But that's what Halloween has gotten into. He never used to go out on Halloween. He always said it was too dangerous, even as a teenager. But this year he wanted to take the child out." Makes me sad.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: And historically, uh, this is worth noting, marginalized minorities, of course, have been at higher risk of danger on Halloween. And this goes all the way back to the cabbage-throwing days because children often targeted neighbors that they thought were bad-tempered or different. I mean, it's like you said, like the, like the old spooky house on the hill that might be the witch of the neighborhood. You know what I mean? Like there's this...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Kind of like a Boo Radley vibe.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, "Oh, we never see that guy, so let's throw cabbages at him," even though maybe he's disabled or just likes to be alone.
Em Schulz: Or fucking scared to leave the house on Halloween. [chuckle]
Christine Schiefer: Or scared to leave the house on Halloween. Precisely. And so, you know, this tended to be, um, a pattern that people who were different got targeted. And it's similar to, you know, cranky elderly women who were unmarried became targets of witch hunts. Um, it's people who, even that same descriptor, became the witch in the neighborhood or, you know, the, the scary guy on the corner who you make up, you know, urban legends about. Likewise, people in the anti-Halloween camp have taken measures to ban festivities that could lead to troubling and dangerous biases. Biases?
Em Schulz: Biases?
Christine Schiefer: Biases. Cities across the US have started passing laws banning teenagers from trick-or-treating, period.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So like, if you're over a certain age, you are not to participate in trick-or-treating. And this... It doesn't make sense on a few levels, first off. It seems to be a bad move because historically, trick-or-treating is the only thing keeping teens out of trouble. So it's like, if you can't trick-or-treat as a teenager, you're gonna go do something else, like a party, or drink, or throw a cabbage at someone. So maybe don't cancel trick-or-treating for teenagers.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And in Belleville, Illinois, children older than 12 are not allowed to wear masks with their costumes. So they cannot...
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Cover their face. And kids past eighth grade cannot appear on the streets, highways, public homes, private homes, or public places in the city to make trick-or-treat visitations. Older than 12.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: That seems really young to me. I mean, maybe not.
Em Schulz: I would have thought like, by driving age or high school, like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. 16 maybe, I feel like, but 12 seems young. I mean, what do I know?
Em Schulz: 12 is like... Also, 12 is awkward because it's already that age where like you still wanna go trick-or-treating, but everyone else is kind of growing out of it. And so like...
Christine Schiefer: Acting cool. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You already like are feeling a little shame about it and now it's like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: No. But maybe it's helpful, 'cause now you don't have to feel shame. It's like, "Oh, well, I can't," you know.
Christine Schiefer: "I'm not allowed." But 12 seems so little to me, but maybe I'm... Maybe I'm just...
Em Schulz: 12 feels little to me, too.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I don't know. But you made a really good point. And there are also some other questionable iffy points about this because until 2019, that's pretty damn recent, 2019 revision of the law, children older than 12 caught trick-or-treating in Chesapeake, Virginia could face six months in prison if you were older than 12.
Em Schulz: That's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: So if...
Em Schulz: Imagine if your 12th birthday was the day before Halloween. [laughter] What if your 12th birthday was Halloween?
Christine Schiefer: Then you're a Scorpio and you're just trying to create a chaotic situation.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Like, are you going to go to jail for six months if you were 11 yesterday?
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's like insane. It really doesn't make any sense. And they have since taken this jail time penalty off the table. So this is not a...
Em Schulz: Good. Jesus Christ.
Christine Schiefer: This is no longer a risk.
Em Schulz: Like truly imagine being in juvie, it's like, what are you in for? Trick-or-treating.
Christine Schiefer: I... [laughter] I literally thought when you first said imagine your 12th birthday, I thought you meant like imagine if your 12th birthday was behind bars and you had to have visitation from your friends, and then...
Em Schulz: Well, it fucking happened apparently in Chesapeake, Virginia, so...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: So they changed the jail time threat, thankfully, and they also uh, changed the age limit to 14, so slightly better, slightly better. And critics of these laws say they're unfair for everyone, but especially in special cases, which I always thought was kind of the troubling part of this, is that disabled teenagers, teenagers with unstable home lives who maybe didn't get the chance to trick-or-treat when they were younger, or you know, I've experienced this in some of the neighborhoods I've lived in where there are families who, um you know, go door-to-door, sort of similar to the tradition and are seeking food...
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know what I mean, like candy, sure, but like maybe they don't have access to that in their home life. And so this is kind of targeting them as well. And critics also worry, which I found very interesting, about non-white children being criminalized and targeted even when they are within the legal age to participate. And...
Em Schulz: I was gonna say.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, because when you're 12, it's sort of like, some people look much older, some people look younger, some people have boobs, some don't. You know, puberty hits differently on different people.
Em Schulz: Well even, even then, not even physically, but just to be a black person, you are adultified so early.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Exactly.
Christine Schiefer: And like, you know, if there was a 12-year-old who did something wrong, all of a sudden they're not like a kid in, in the eyes of the news and society. So I mean, there's...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: If you're 11 and you're like a black kid who wants to go trick-or-treating, someone is going to have already decided for you that you're actually much older than 11 and...
Christine Schiefer: Like almost assessed the situation. And you are absolutely correct, because according to the American Psychology Association, research conducted on 176 police officers who were mostly white males and 264 undergraduate students, mostly white females, revealed that black boys as young as 10 may not be viewed in the same light as of childhood innocence as their white peers, but are instead more likely to be mistaken as older, be perceived as guilty and face police violence if accused of a crime. So already, subconsciously, we're facing these biases. So it is a troubling thing to say, "Oh, we're just gonna decide on an age like 12." And no one has an, a driver's license at 12 to prove how old they are.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like all just very messy. In communities with trick-or-treat age laws, young black boys are at very high risk of dangerous bias, and of course, the same risk could extend to other racial minorities. And here's where I have another upsetting case for you.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Woohoo. This one is from October of 1992. A 16-year-old boy named Yoshihiro Hattori was excited to celebrate American Halloween for the first time as an exchange student from Japan.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yoshi was... I know. It's already just so deeply upsetting. Yoshi was excited to experience a new culture and share his culture too. And before he left for his exchange year, he wrote in his journal, "Wherever I go, I wish I could make the country a second home country. I can make Japanese cooking like tempura cutlet for host families and introduce the living way of Japanese." And he was beyond excited to spend some time in the United States. His host parents, Dr. Holley Haymaker and her husband, Dick Haymaker, were thrilled to host Yoshi in their Baton Rouge, Louisiana home. In Japan, Yoshi was a dedicated rugby player, and in Louisiana, he started taking jazz dance lessons. He...
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: He really fit right in. Everyone at his new school loved him. He was extroverted. He was a free spirit. His host father, Dick, said he was a really, really extraordinary guy. He was life. He moved through space like a dancer. He also made fast friends with the Haymaker's 16-year-old son, Webb. In October, they were invited to a Halloween party in another town. So the boys dressed up and set out on Saturday, October 17th. Yoshi was dressed as John Travolta from Saturday Night Fever.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: It's like so upsetting. Webb, the son, uh, said, "Eventually we ended up on the street. We saw this house. It had Halloween decorations and it had three cars in the driveway and the address was 10311, whereas we wanted to go to 10131, but I just saw the address and said, 'Oh, this is it.'" The boys knocked on the door, but nobody answered. A woman opened a side door, looked at them for a second and slammed the side door shut. Webb realized, "Oh, maybe we're in the wrong place," so they started to walk away. That's when 30-year-old Rodney Pierce opened the front door holding a revolver.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Why? Why?
Christine Schiefer: Webb thinks that Yoshi might have mistaken the gun for a Halloween prop. Guns were so uncommon in Japan, it's possible Yoshi had never even seen one in person.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Rodney yelled, "Freeze!" but Yoshi didn't seem to understand. And you have to remember, English is not his first language. And he spoke English, but you know he, he... Totally different culture, different expectations, um, and he just did not seem to understand. So he started walking back toward the house, smiling and greeting Rodney. He said...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: "We're here for the party. We're here for the party." Without another warning, Rodney shot Yoshi directly in the chest and slammed the door shut.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Unaware of Yoshi's condition after the ambulance took him away, Webb waited at the police station for his parents who spoke to the police and told him that Yoshi had died. The first thing Webb said was, "His poor mother."
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Yoshi's parents flew to the United States while the Haymakers were wracked with guilt for letting them go to this party, for feeling like they had failed him. Holly dreaded meeting Yoshi's parents who had trusted her to keep their son safe.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it must have been... That's just a daunting nightmare situation. When they met, the first thing Yoshi's mom asked was, "How is Webb?"
Em Schulz: Mm. Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: That's so sweet. Initially, Rodney was off the hook because he claimed uh, he was defending his property from trespassers, AKA two...
Em Schulz: Shut the fuck up.
Christine Schiefer: Children on a Halloween. But international outcry led to his indictment for manslaughter. So the woman who had opened that first door that night turned out to be Rodney's wife, and after seeing the boys who were simply standing at the door knocking, she told Rodney to get the gun.
Em Schulz: Which is wild because like, even if he didn't say, "We're here for the party," or anything later, they could have just been fucking trick-or-treating.
Christine Schiefer: Trick-or-treating.
Em Schulz: So like, you just...
Christine Schiefer: It's so weird.
Em Schulz: It's Halloween night and children in costume came to your door.
Christine Schiefer: Why are you shooting? It's just like so extreme on... Like bizarre.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: I wonder, well...
Em Schulz: So it's just like...
Christine Schiefer: I, I guess the, the party was October 17th, so maybe it's like, oh, it was pre-Halloween, so they wouldn't be trick-or-treating.
Em Schulz: I guess. If I saw anyone in costume at all in October...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't know. I'm also not someone who thinks, "Oh, let me go shoot someone real quick," without any context, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, someone's on my sidewalk, yeah. So you know, and it, it's hard to believe because they had Halloween decorations up. It's not like they forgot...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: What season it was. It's bizarre. It's just like uh, a horrific response.
Em Schulz: So no trick-or-treater is safe. It's like, just so...
Christine Schiefer: No, apparently not.
Em Schulz: You could just get shot on a front stoop.
Christine Schiefer: Especially if you don't look like a white kid from Louisiana, I guess.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So Rodney claims he shot Yoshi out of fear because of his, quote, "unusual way of moving".
Em Schulz: What the fuck does that mean?
Christine Schiefer: Seems like maybe not... But Webb said Yoshi had a bounce to his step because he was so excited for the party. That was the only thing that may have made him walk differently...
Em Schulz: God.
Christine Schiefer: Which is just even worse. Rodney's defense team said Rodney was just one of your neighbors who simply acted in self-defense. After just three hours of deliberation, the jury acquitted Rodney of all charges and he was free to go.
Em Schulz: Shut the fuck up. Sick.
Christine Schiefer: The tragedy... Of course, there's, you know, somewhat of a silver lining in the aftermath of this tragedy because the Haymakers and the Hattoris were bonded together for life from Japan and the United States. They have both, both families have dedicated decades to fighting for gun reform in the US. They met with President Clinton, participated in marches and raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for the cause.
Christine Schiefer: In a civil suit against Rodney and his home insurance company, Yoshi's parents were awarded $100,000, which they then used to fund more gun control campaigns. The Haymakers gave $500,000 to Dick's uh alma mater, Carleton College, to create the Yoshihiro Hattori Memorial Fund, which helps cover costs for students studying abroad from Japan, which I think is really beautiful.
Christine Schiefer: The family's activism is considered to have played a huge role in helping pass the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act shortly after Yoshi's death, which mandates background checks on gun buyers and a five-day waiting period on all purchases. In recent years, the Hattoris returned to the US to speak to survivors of the Parkland shooting and participate in the March for Our Lives in March of 2018. Since Halloween's earliest days in the US, this has been a fraught time of year for those who are pro-Halloween and anti-Halloween. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, you know, it's just very high tension and I feel like that's something we don't necessarily know about in our normal day-to-day, like fall girly, basic bitch experience, at least speaking for me, [chuckle] for myself.
Em Schulz: Hm.
Christine Schiefer: Children have been stabbed, shot, choked by adults in retaliation for throwing an egg at a house or a car...
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: For TP-ing houses. There's this like sometimes violent outrage that comes out from adults who feel like they're being threatened, uh, and it's ended in a lot of physical violence.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: But on the other side, victims of, victims of these pranks have also sustained critical injuries from, you know, say, an egg being thrown at your windshield and you crash your car or...
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: Arson, or any of these so-called pranks that can also lead to fatalities. According to a 2010 New York Times article, "Since 1984, at least 24 people have been seriously wounded or killed in stabbings, shootings, beatings, or accidents sparked by egg-throwing confrontations around Halloween."
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: Just the egg-throwing has led to at least 24 people who have been seriously wounded or killed. So be careful. So be careful.
Em Schulz: Hm. And that's just Halloween too, 'cause... And there's...
Christine Schiefer: That's just on Halloween.
Em Schulz: 365 days of eggs on a car, you know. But in Halloween alone is that's like, that's too much. That's wild.
Christine Schiefer: That's very, very, very alarming to me. And you know, it's unfortunate because especially nowadays, like we consider Halloween a fun, positive uh, creepy time, right? Like, especially millennials, I feel like we've really embraced Halloween as...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: You know, a special time. But of course there is still that reality that you have to be cautious and... You know, be careful, folks. I, I get the fun of a prank um, but just be careful out there because you never know if the person you're pranking is gonna overreact or if you're gonna accidentally cause some harm that you didn't mean to. So it's uh, best to avoid, I would say, playing pranks on strangers who can react unpredictably. Um, maybe don't confront pranksters just for your own safety. Uh, you know, it can end very badly. But of course, tragic cases like Yoshi's show that even innocent people with good intentions who've done no pranking at all can end up victims of unpredictable violence. And, um, that is the story of Halloween pranks and worse pranks.
Em Schulz: If anything, it was more just like a giant PSA for like...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh, that's a good way to put it. A giant PSA.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, you forgot about all the needles and meth in our candy or whatever, so...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah. They're the... All the rumors.
Em Schulz: I feel like they don't, they don't say that anymore the way they used to like in the '90 and early 2000s.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: It seems to be like uh, a trend. Yeah, it was like a '90s trend, I think. Um...
Em Schulz: It was like a huge thing. Like I feel like we talk about it now as a joke, but it... Uh, I don't know about you, but in my area, people were actually so scared of that, like so scared that drug dealers were coming in and, and putting needles in chocolate. And it's like, why?
Christine Schiefer: I think my mom was like, "That's ridiculous. Who is going to give away their heroin? You're fine."
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: So I was like, "Okay." So we never really believed it, but...
Em Schulz: I, I think it was also during like... There, there was that one big, um, year of like anthrax scares.
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: So there was... That was pretty valid. I mean, there was like people finding anthrax in their like mailboxes and shit. So like, I... And not, not like it was like, you know, uh, a million people, but there were cases of it. And so I think that was...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Part of the fear of like, you can't even touch your candy and...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, and you were living closer... You were living closer to... Had more connections to DC, which I feel like...
Em Schulz: That's true.
Christine Schiefer: Would have also a little bit of... I don't know.
Em Schulz: I feel like the...
Christine Schiefer: Added element.
Em Schulz: The anthrax year was a big one for, for being scared to touch your candy.
Christine Schiefer: For sure.
Em Schulz: But then like, if you're grabbing it from the neighbors next door, like you know exactly who provided you this candy. Like they're going to jail.
Christine Schiefer: Like they... You all shopped for it at the same Walmart. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yes. So, you know, I don't, I don't... I just remember like there being a year of paranoia. But I remember hearing the things about drugs and...
Christine Schiefer: I, I remember it.
Em Schulz: Both of my parents being partiers, uh, in their heyday, they were like, "Don't worry. That's not true." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Mine, mine, too.
Em Schulz: That one's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Mine were like, "Um, I don't think your dumb friends at school know what they're talking about." And I was like, "Okay."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh. Well, dang. Good one, Christine. You... Thank you for bringing back Cabbage Night 'cause that really escapes me.
Christine Schiefer: I just... That was, you know... Our researcher Saoirse added that in and was like, "You don't have to say this." I was like, "Are you kidding? We're talking about cabbages again whether you like it or not, everybody."
Em Schulz: I actually just cut up a cabbage, uh, two days ago.
Christine Schiefer: You did not. They're fun to cut though.
Em Schulz: I did. I...
Christine Schiefer: Isn't it weirdly satisfying 'cause they're all like, crimped, crinkly?
Em Schulz: Ugh. Well, also I love a crunch and like, I...
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: But I don't like crispy crunch... Like, I don't like chip crunch.
Christine Schiefer: But also you don't like nuts in your candy, which is why I like nuts in my candy 'cause it's a crunch. So that's very interesting.
Em Schulz: But the crunch doesn't bother me. The taste, I don't want the taste of nuts in my chocolate.
Christine Schiefer: A peanut? Interesting. Okay.
Em Schulz: It's like, it's like... What... What are you adding? Like, just give me... I want chocolate. I didn't come here for fucking nuts...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: You know? If I want it, you'd think that I'd go buy a...
Christine Schiefer: You've heard it here first.
Em Schulz: I'd buy a jar of almonds if I wanted nuts so damn bad. But I want chocolate. It's Halloween.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um...
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I've heard you and I understand.
Em Schulz: Loud and clear?
Christine Schiefer: Loud and clear.
Em Schulz: Even with like Reese's, like I, I like it. I used to love it. I went through like a phase where I loved it, but like...
Christine Schiefer: I love it. Yeah, I love Reese's.
Em Schulz: May... Maybe I'm just getting older, but like, after like one or two, I like... It's too much strong sugar.
Christine Schiefer: They're very rich. Yeah, very rich.
Em Schulz: Very, very sweet. Yeah. Um, no, I cut up a cabbage just...
Christine Schiefer: I can't eat 11 Ring Pops as evidenced by today's episode, but that's different.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Minimal sugar compared to Christine. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Em watched me drop [laughter] a fucking Ring Pop. Well, I didn't know you were watching, but I dropped a Ring Pop and then I picked it up and I was like...
Em Schulz: There was nothing else to, to look at. It was all you.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Em was like, "She's gonna put that in her mouth," and, uh, indeed I did.
Em Schulz: Well, no, no, no. Every, everyone, listen to what I had to watch because Christine was taking her Ring Pops, and then she was... Ring Pops by... I'm not kidding. She had like 10 on her hands. And then she kept doing the thing that like babies do when their hands are sticky and she was like doing like the full arm stretch to be able to touch her eye and shit. And...
Christine Schiefer: Leona goes, Leona goes, "Help. Oh, uh-oh."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: "Help." So that's kind of what I was doing. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, that's what Christine was doing. But then like one of them fell. Although she had nine others, this was the one she wanted. And she kept, she kept putting it in her mouth and then I would see her look at it after it's been dropped and like pull like a hair or something off of it but put it right back in her mouth. [laughter] And then a couple of seconds later she'd pull it out again, clearly didn't succeed the first time and is now investigating to pull something off of it. [laughter] And I'm like, you can just... It was like five cents. It was like a nickel. It's the last thing on earth that still costs a nickel. Like you can just throw it away and use the other nine. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: It's fine. And...
Christine Schiefer: Eva was on my side. She said sometimes you just want that particular flavor.
Em Schulz: They all looked the same. Were they all different flavors?
Christine Schiefer: They were, they... No, they were... No.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Do you have, do you have a favorite Ring Pop flavor?
Christine Schiefer: They were two different flavors. And this one was a blue raspberry and I really wanted to eat the blue raspberry. And the other ones were purple grape. I didn't want grape.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. You know what I... You know what I fucking love, Christine? You know what I love?
Christine Schiefer: What? Tell me.
Em Schulz: I need you to hear this. When they had those Ring Pops that were the twisted flavors...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Where they were tie dyed?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, delightful.
Em Schulz: Tie dyed.
Christine Schiefer: Those are good.
Em Schulz: Tie dyed.
Christine Schiefer: These are...
Em Schulz: You gotta be kidding me. The classics.
Christine Schiefer: Halloween includes tongue painters. I love that they're trying to market it as like, "Oh, we did that on purpose." Like yeah, right.
Em Schulz: Right. It's just food dye, girl, but thanks.
Christine Schiefer: It's literally red 40, but thank you for pretending like you did it intentionally.
Em Schulz: No. I, um... Those tie dye ones really fucking sealed the deal for me, especially the blue and green one. But they... Also the red and orange one was pretty good too.
Christine Schiefer: Those were good. I like those, the swirlies. The swirlies are tasty. Yep.
Em Schulz: If I ever see one, I have to get it. I have to get it.
Christine Schiefer: You have to.
Em Schulz: Alright. Well...
Christine Schiefer: Alright.
Em Schulz: What now, Christine? Are we off...
Christine Schiefer: I don't know.
Em Schulz: Off to do another After Hours?
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah. And, uh And That's Why We Drink After Hours. And actually I have a... So what I'm thinking of when it's like my turn to do an after hours or bring something to the table, what I'm thinking is what I might do from now on is, um, uh, like a mini-crime story, like something that's not enough...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Because I have one today that is a doozy that came up in my, uh, news headlines this morning and I was like, "[gasp] I have to tell them about this." And then I realized I could tell you in the after hours about this bizarro crime. So like maybe weird crimes or like, you know, crimes that don't have enough information to have an episode. So I have one for you today, if that's okay.
Em Schulz: You found it... It was in the news, you found it?
Christine Schiefer: If it was in the news, yes.
Em Schulz: Sounds like that's a newsy doozy.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: You're such an idiot. I was like, why did you make me repeat that it was in the news? That's weird.
Em Schulz: For the callback. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Good job.
Em Schulz: Okay. I'm excited for our newsy doozy.
Christine Schiefer: Woohoo!
Em Schulz: I can't wait to, to hear what the hell is going on. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.