E365 Podcasting in Dog Years and Collecting Crows Feet
TOPICS: THE NODOLF INCIDENT, THE LIPSTICK KILLER AKA WILLIAM HEIRENS PT. 1
The message on the wall written in lipstick by William Heirens the Lipstick Killer
It's episode 365 and we're one year old in dog years! After seven years of podcasting we've finally reached one entire year's worth of full episodes. It also just happens to coincide with Gio's Gotcha Day! In honor of all these self-imposed holidays, we've got some wild stories for you today. First Em takes us to 1800s Wisconsin for the strange Nodolf Incident, but not before taking us on a deep dive into the history of hillside letters. Then Christine starts a two-parter in the infamous case of the Lipstick Killer. And is this the reprise of the hoop and stick? ...and that's why we drink!
Transcript
[intro music]
Christine Schiefer: Don't do it. Christine. There, I did it.
Em Schulz: I was like, you know what then you fucking start.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and I did.
Em Schulz: I gotta tell you, today's a big day.
Christine Schiefer: It's Gio's gotcha day, is that why?
Em Schulz: Ohhh.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought that was why.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: No? I was like, you remembered.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't, I did not remember, but I know his birthday. I don't know his gotcha day, but happy gotcha day, Giovani.
Christine Schiefer: You do now.
Em Schulz: Oh. It's a little sweetheart.
Christine Schiefer: Why is it a big day, my friend?
Em Schulz: Because, Christine, today is episode 365, which means we are officially a year of episodes.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: That's so stupid.
Em Schulz: Which is wild because...
Christine Schiefer: We find a holiday for everything.
Em Schulz: If it... If it, it took seven years for us to become a year of episodes, but if someone wanted to start And That's Why We Drink today.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so we're dog years.
Em Schulz: Now, we're like... Yeah, it's on a gone gotcha day.
Christine Schiefer: Wait. It's the actual dog year age. That's kinda cute.
Em Schulz: Look how... See, I told you we'd get, we'd get there, and I just think it's very sweet. If someone was like, I'm gonna start And That's Why We Drink today and I'm gonna do an episode a day, it would officially now take them one full year, one trip around the sun...
Christine Schiefer: Well...
Em Schulz: As they say, to listen through.
Christine Schiefer: I guess, except, except for all the listener episodes, but you know, that's okay.
Em Schulz: Nah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I've, I'm already on a roll Christine, so I'm gonna need you to just play along here.
Christine Schiefer: I just wanna be a naysayer. So let me be a naysayer.
Em Schulz: I don't know why. I'd like just have... I just gave you the coolest fact you'll ever hear, and in, in...
Christine Schiefer: Sorry.
Em Schulz: To be on theme of our, our early days, to give you the full one year...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Experience, my camera glitched today. So we're getting the full circle graininess of yesteryear as if we were...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: To have filmed our first episode, but my camera's acting up...
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say of yesteryear, yeah.
Em Schulz: And I'm looking for a reason to excuse it for everybody.
Christine Schiefer: I mean I have never used anything but my laptop.
Em Schulz: So this is my version of, this is my version of the bad audio from the first, uh, couple rounds of And That's Why We Drink.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, I mean, I don't know what it's gonna be different 'cause it's still filmed in 4K, so I don't think it makes a difference, but...
Em Schulz: I have to look at myself for the next two hours, and I can't see how great I look. So it's...
Christine Schiefer: It's nice, it's nice.
Em Schulz: There's the problem.
Christine Schiefer: It's blurred. I don't have to see all the fine lines and you know...
Em Schulz: Oh, is this blurred or no?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, okay.
Christine Schiefer: No, that should come through loud and clear, thank you.
Em Schulz: You can see that one over here on my right hand?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I see I 'em both. See 'em both.
Em Schulz: Okay. Oh, Christine. Anyway, happy 3-6-5...
Christine Schiefer: You're, you're seven, you're seven in dog years. So you know what? I feel like I can talk about our crow's feet, our collective podcast crow's feet.
Em Schulz: That's totally fine. Um. I'm just so happy I get to, if I were to put, put us in my ears, it would take me so long to finally get you to shut the fuck up now, it'd take a full year.
Christine Schiefer: A whole year. And you know what? You're right. That is something to celebrate when you put it that way.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Um. I'm pretty excited for us. So I'm excited for everybody who gets to celebrate this big milestone with us. Um, it's a monumental day. I've never really felt or seen anything like it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and I, I just, I couldn't be happier. I'm at a loss for words really.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Because I've been thinking about it for a long time and I kept trying to find like an on theme episode topic for you. I could not find one. I tried so hard and I gotta be honest, I'm given... Before I get yelled at over my phone, Taylor from Creeps and Crimes did suggest that today I cover like calendars, like Mayan calendars, all this stuff. But I already did a doomsday prophecy one. I didn't wanna...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I... You know what I mean? So I specifically to Taylor, everybody else you can turn off the podcast for like 30 seconds.
Christine Schiefer: Did you just text Taylor like what should we do for our 365th episode? [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, she said... She told me one of the last times we recorded together, she like, it was like, she pitched it, it was like for 365 you have to do something that involves like a year, like a year theme. So calendar...
Christine Schiefer: So she even knew it was a celebratory event?
Em Schulz: It seems like... Yes. I...
Christine Schiefer: I... Okay. I mean, I guess I'm outnumbered. I, I, 'cause I thought, Oh, what, what were you like harassing everybody about this special occasion? Um. But it sounds like other people are on board. I'm just the only...
Em Schulz: Naysayer.
Christine Schiefer: Contrary person in the... And I apologize. As you can tell, I'm very sorry about it.
Em Schulz: Good. That's... I like, I like where we're starting in this episode. Okay. Um. Apologize for something else, and then I'll have a really good one.
Christine Schiefer: I'm bringing up certain energy to the table.
Em Schulz: [laughter] A je ne sais quoi. A, a, no, no, no energy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Anyway, Christine uh what do you drink this week? And why do you drink this week?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Em. I mean, listen...
Em Schulz: Oh, boy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay. I, um...
Em Schulz: We talked yesterday, by the way, and I didn't hear any of this.
Christine Schiefer: Do you have water 'cause I'm... I know. I know. It's like every day I have a new world to show you. Um. This is something that you knew about, but I finally rectified it. I got my TikTok back finally. Um, it was an arduous and a long and a fraught...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Process over the new year's holiday. It took about, uh, let's see what day is it? Almost a month. Um, to rest it out of the hands of Mustafa...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Who hacked my account and then started messaging people, including you, by the way.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um. And you know, I went into a deep dive, of course, in a hotel, in like a, you know, Holiday Inn Express one night on New Year's Eve, because my... We were driving through Pennsylvania. My husband and baby were sleeping. I thought, what better to do than to get to the bottom of this, um, internet criminal who has taken over my account. And I was mad because he deleted all my videos, so like, now they're gone. I mean, I'm sure they're saved somewhere in my camera roll...
Em Schulz: Yeah, that felt extra...
Christine Schiefer: But I'm like...
Em Schulz: That felt like extra personal. It was like, it's one thing to take over an account...
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: But like also, like, obviously neither of us actually know the reason why, but it was like, if you're just going to take it hostage, 'cause you want...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I do.
Em Schulz: To get like... Oh, okay. I'll shut up. Your turn. You go.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. There's a very long lag, I think. So it sometimes probably sounds like I'm like c-cutting you off. I'm not trying to, I'm trying to time it so that... I think I'm making it worse.
Em Schulz: Oh, really? I don't hear a lag at all.
Christine Schiefer: I do. But that's okay. Uh. We'll figure it out. It's fine. Um. We've dealt with worse. This is episode 365. You know what I mean? Like, we're a year old. We're still figuring this shit out. Um. I was gonna say, oh, so right. Like, so he deleted all my videos, which I thought was like unnecessary. Like, why couldn't you just make them private? Okay. But I don't think he cared, right? So he deleted all my videos, which was whatever, but I'm annoyed because now I don't have like all the comments and like, I just don't have any of that. And then he went and unfollowed, like, of course kept all the fucking followers. It wasn't even that many. I mean, it was a lot like compared to... It was like 26,000 or something. It's not like a crazy amount, but he deleted everyone I was following, which I was very annoyed by because like, I didn't follow that many people, but it was like very curated, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like it was like my friends and then it was you know specific people I really thought were funny or whatever. So that was very annoying. And then I found his identity on the internet, his address, his phone number, all this nonsense. And I'm like, okay, so I know who he is. And I spent hours tracking him down, figuring out who he was. And then I went, well, now what? Like, I, I don't know why I went on this like journey. I discovered his identity. I discovered his home address, his middle name, like all of it. And then I was like, well, apparently, that's not going to do me any good. Like, I thought, oh, finally, I get to be my, you know, like my cool, like web sleuth self. And I was and then it did nothing. And so I messaged him. I found a way to message him, um, like on WhatsApp. And I said, like, Mustafa, give me my fucking account back. And he said, ha, ha, ha, you must give me $850. And I was like, I'm not going to do that.
Em Schulz: Why the 50?
Christine Schiefer: And so I was like...
Em Schulz: Why 850? Couldn't we have rounded to...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: A grand?
Christine Schiefer: Oh, because, because, um, 'cause that's the, the value on the marketplace, is what I was told. And I'm like, I... There's no way my account is worth $850. [laughter] But he's like, I'm gonna sell it to the highest bidder. And I'm like, okay, good luck. Like, who the fuck is gonna spend that much money...
Em Schulz: It's like you're talking to her...
Christine Schiefer: On my fucking account?
Em Schulz: Like give my fucking account.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right? Like, who... Nobody wants this, right? And so just to give you an idea, by the time I finally got it back, he still owned it. So it's not like he found a bidder better than me, okay?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm like, first of all, I'm gonna send you... Oh, I'm not gonna send you anything. But if I did, like, what, are you just gonna give me my password? Doubtful. So it was just such a fucking back and forth mess. And then I waited till it was nighttime in Iraq. And I posted... So the thing is, I was still logged in, because I could use face ID. But he did like the double verification. So I could... Every time I tried to like change a password, it would text him and email him. And I was like, shit, like, even if it's texting him, and I know his phone number. I can't like get his messages. Do you know what I mean?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it was just such a mess. And then finally, I was like, desperately talking to TikTok support and like, God bless, but they were just making me furious. They were like...
Em Schulz: Of course.
Christine Schiefer: Well, it looks like, um, we removed you from the account because this Mustafa person proved it was his account. And I was like, Oh, yeah, like, did he now? You know? And so anyway... I got it back now.
Em Schulz: My verified blue check on TikTok and my face don't earn enough for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah what the fuck.
Em Schulz: Uh, whatever.
Christine Schiefer: I was so frustrated. So I finally got it back. It took weeks. And then I messaged him because I'm, I can't help myself. And I said, like, I said, like, I forget what I said, just something like catty. And then I sent you guys the text of what he responded. He said, "I will always be here." And I was like, Oh, no, [laughter] that's not the vibe I was hoping for here. I thought I had like, um, foiled him, you know, in his in his plot. Um, but then he sent this like insane message to me. Here, I'm gonna pull it up, because I just want to put this out there. He said he will get my account back. And I said. Okay... Um let's see. He said to me, I told you earlier, I will never leave you. Even if you recover your account. It's not the first time I've hacked one. Watch what happens, even if you try to retrieve it again and again. And I was like...
Em Schulz: Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: So I just responded, I think you should get... I'd recommend you get a hobby instead. And he said, my hobby extracts $10,000 every month, lol.
Em Schulz: Congratulations.
Christine Schiefer: Uh. Congratulations. Um, he says this isn't the end.
Em Schulz: I don't believe you by the way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I don't believe you at all. He, he said, but it isn't the end. It's just the beginning. Uh, he said, we will always manipulate your account. Let's see what will happen. Good luck. And I'm like, Oh, my god, this man has it out for me now because when... Oh, and by the way, I could log into my account. The point of that story was that I posted when he was asleep, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I posted. And um, I posted this, this video that was like, Hey, guys, like, it's nighttime in Iraq. So I'm hoping Mustafa doesn't see this right now. And I hope he's asleep. It's like 4:00 AM. So, uh, I'm gonna post this here. But just so you know, like, I made a-another account. So go follow that. But just so you know, this is hacked, and I'm trying to fix it. And it got... It was like, very funny, because he freaked out the next morning, like freaked out when he found out what I did. And, um...
Em Schulz: [laughter] Good. What happened?
Christine Schiefer: Started like... Yeah, and, and people were messaging him and being like, dude, you're such a loser. Like get out of here, you know, and he was getting so worked up, like, I could read all the DMs. And I was like, this is kind of fun. Like we're sort of cyber bullying a bully. Umm...
Em Schulz: What was he saying back, though? Like, what was his response when people would call him a, a loser or whatever?
Christine Schiefer: He'd be like, you're a loser. Like, it wasn't good.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't like clever.
Em Schulz: He nailed it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he nailed it. He's a fucking 10 grand a month fucking entrepreneur, you know? Um, like, here, let me see. Like, some of the messages were like, dude, give her her account back. And he said, shut the fuck up, bitch.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus Christ.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know, he's kind of a nasty man. Like, he's not nice. Um.
Em Schulz: I gathered when he stole your account and then tried to exploit you.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: But... Or extort you. But yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I, I was hoping we'd have a fun little thing, like a, you know...
Em Schulz: Like this was your meet-cute, and he'd, he'd be over for dinner...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Next week or... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Or like this could be a sitcom, you know? But no, he didn't wanna play that game. Um, so he just said horrible things to people on my account, and he was like... It just really was a lot. Um, you know, I... But I got it back. So folks, if you, um, were wondering, I'm back on TikTok now @xtineschiefer. Um, I still have my other account, uh, which is @christinabeana, which is kind of my account that I made when I wasn't sure if this one was ever coming back to me. Um, but yeah, I'm gonna try and repopulate my feed, and see...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: If I can get it back to normal. But, uh, it was, it was a journey. And, um, when Mustafa sent me those threatening texts, I was like, I... See, I can't help myself. I said, bring it on.
Em Schulz: Yeah, you and my mother are exactly the same. One time, uh, someone tried to like... It was like one of those, uh, spam, scam people who they pretended to be the bank and they needed my password to get into my bank account, blah, blah, blah. And...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: This was years ago now. I, I fell for it in some way where they had like, almost hacked in, so they didn't actually get my money. But, 'cause I caught, I caught on at the very last second, like in the 11th hour.
Christine Schiefer: Thank God. I remember this.
Em Schulz: My, my mom found out, uh, my mom found out and like, really, like Liam Neeson threatened this person. Like really was like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: I'll rip your fucking eyeballs out, like something crazy. And like, they fought back. It became a whole thing where then like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: It was like unnecessary. I was like, you could just, you could just...
Christine Schiefer: You were like, mom we, we won. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's like, let it be. Yeah. Yeah. And she was, she's an Aries. She really was like, any opportunity to be a fucking hothead...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, the fire, yeah.
Em Schulz: I'm gonna take it.
Christine Schiefer: The fire's out.
Em Schulz: So I... So did you, you didn't pay him the $850. How did you actually...
Christine Schiefer: Of course not.
Em Schulz: Did, did TikTok support help you?
Christine Schiefer: So finally, TikTok support helped me. Which, like...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: To be honest, it took many weeks and finally I had to message from like the Beach Too Sandy TikTok. And I said, I need you to help me. I'm losing my mind. This person is like sending threatening, inappropriate messages to people. Uh, like I, I don't know. I, I sent a message and I was like, I need you to help me now, or explain why it, why we can't make this work. 'Cause they just kept closing all my... Like my... I'd open a ticket and then it would be like, okay, let's go through all...
Christine Schiefer: You have to change your password. And I'm like, oh, my God, I can't change my fucking password. Like I don't know how else to say this. So finally I was like, please fucking help me. And somebody did, somebody said, send a picture of your ID to this, you know, to, to prove it's yours. And I did. And then like, within a couple days, um, they were able to, to reassign it to my email. And then I was allowed to log in and like kick him off.
Em Schulz: You know, there's a...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, man. It was a doozy.
Em Schulz: There's a, there's a, a subreddit that's like, where do you, like, where do you stand? Like, and um, like what's your one take that finally has you agreeing with boomers? It's like, for all of their like, bad hot takes, where do you actually like, get, cave? And like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Where do you align? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Where do you actually agree that like, they're onto something. And a lot of people are like, just fuck these stupid robots. I have to, like, why is there support...
Christine Schiefer: I can't.
Em Schulz: That I can't talk to? It's like, they're not supportive. It's so...
Christine Schiefer: It's infuriating. Like I, I mean...
Em Schulz: That's probably where I stand with the boomers. I'm like, they're taking our jobs. All these robots, you know? [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And the ridiculous thing is like... So I mean, the ridiculous thing overall is that I'm complaining about my TikTok account when I also lost my health insurance last week and have an infusion tomorrow. So it's like... You know, I should be complaining about that 'cause it's...
Em Schulz: Did it come back? Did you get it?
Christine Schiefer: 8 grand out of pocket. No um, and so we've been like...
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine, don't you have Remicade tomorrow?
Christine Schiefer: I sure do. Um, and so we've been like that.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, my God.
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's a nightmare. So like, we've been, but this is what I do. I like compartmentalize and then I just like hyperfocus on something that's not the real problem, right, um, so that I don't lose my sanity. And so we've been dealing with this fucking insurance thing and it's a nightmare 'cause we're on Cobra. 'Cause Blaise had been laid off. And so we had been using his insurance. 'Cause podcasters, weirdly enough don't have access to great insurance in Kentucky. It's the weirdest thing.
Em Schulz: Wouldn't you know it.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and so... I know. And so I was, I was like calling and trying to figure it out. And then we asked for somebody to help us, like with our business manager that we both work with. And they were like, okay, sure. And they put us in touch with these people who work with insurance. And literally like 12 hours later they messaged back this like really rude fucking email, which I told you about where they like addressed us and put a period after our name. And I was like, don't fucking talk to me like that via email. Like Christine, period. Like don't do that. I see you. And then this guy goes, well, I spent hours on the chatbot and I got nowhere. And I was like, excuse me, that's what you've been doing for 12 hours? I can sit on a chatbot for 12 hours, too, my friend, like, of course you got nowhere.
Em Schulz: Taking our jobs. I'm telling you. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I was like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? I was like, he's like, well, chatbot didn't help me at all. And I was like, if it was going, if it was as easy as getting on the end of the chatbot, like we wouldn't have a problem right now. But of course that's not gonna work. So anyway, I'm just like having one of those weeks where I'm like, um, everything's fine until for one moment I realize like I'm falling into the pits of insanity and then I just kind of bounce back. So how are you?
Em Schulz: Hmm. Well, um... I'm... I have my TikTok account and health insurance, so.
Christine Schiefer: I'm so happy for you. I am.
Em Schulz: Um.
Christine Schiefer: I'm not even just saying that this time. I really am because fuck it.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Somebody needs it. If it's not me, it might as well be you.
Em Schulz: I would like it. I don't know if I need it, but I would like it a lot. Um, so I'm glad that I have that, but wow. I am nervous for you with your Remicade tomorrow. That sounds really, really bad.
Christine Schiefer: Thank you. You know, and I was gonna push it, but then I was like...
Em Schulz: And that's something you don't wanna... It's something don't want to, um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I can't mess with it.
Em Schulz: Hold off on while we're touring.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. That's why I didn't push it. I was like, I have to go because we're going to Salt Lake and like, I can't, I can't mess with it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway, it's gonna be, I think it's like $13,500 out of pocket and then with like a dis... A rebate, it's like $8,500 out of pocket, which like, what the fuck? Like who do you think I am? Right. And so I'm a podcaster in Kentucky, not like, you know...
Em Schulz: That's gonna not be good.
Christine Schiefer: Warren Buffet, I'm like, who's a rich person? I don't know. [laughter] Umm, no. And like, I mean, I'm very fortunate in that, like, I'm not gonna, you know, go bankrupt over it. Like, I'm able to source the money if need be, but like, do I wanna spend 13 grand on something that like should be covered and has been covered and no, and I, I, I don't, so I'm just like losing my mind. But it's fine. We're gonna try to reimburse it. Umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just one day at a time.
Em Schulz: Did you have, uh, you had a, uh, uh, what's it called? A consultation with a new therapist. How'd that go?
Christine Schiefer: I did! I'm so excited.
Em Schulz: Do you like that?
Christine Schiefer: And I start on Friday. I do, and I start Friday, not this Friday, but the Friday after. And she was like, do you wanna do like an over the phone? And I was like, you'll hear about that. No, I don't wanna do it over the phone. [laughter] I was like, you'll learn in time that, that's unacceptable. Um, no, but she sounds really sweet.
Em Schulz: So you have, do you still have to drive to her or is it like a FaceTime thing?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like in person, but I, I prefer that anyway. I don't know, as you know, well, she does virtual too, if we're like traveling, but, um, I was like, let's just do in person. And then I was like, I have a lot to talk to you about. You've never met me, but I have so much to tell you.
Em Schulz: Okay. Isn't it weird? It's gotta be weird if you're like, uh, you finally meet like...
Christine Schiefer: Right?
Em Schulz: The one therapist wise, and like, they just appear for me. Her name's Jordan. And she just appeared on my screen one day and I was like, oh, Jordan, you're about to have a lot of information.
Christine Schiefer: Jordan, Jordan, Jordan.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It was like you're in danger, girl. You... I don't think you don't, you know what did to yourself.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, look like you got yourself into.
Em Schulz: Um. Well, I am happy for you.
Christine Schiefer: Well, you inspired me. Well, for you because, because you've had such success and such growth as you've said with Jordan, that I, I was like, you know what? I need to get back, back on the saddle.
Em Schulz: I literally, I love Jordan. I, and I feel like she's accidentally, um, become all of our therapists at different times because, um.
Christine Schiefer: It's true.
Em Schulz: I just keep screaming to everybody of things that Jordan would say. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I'm always like, well, Jordan said to do that. Blaise was like, who the hell is Jordan? And I'm like...
Em Schulz: I don't, I don't mean to be that person. I just finally...
Christine Schiefer: Our therapist... I mean Em's therapist.
Em Schulz: I just finally found a therapist who isn't fucking miserable. And it took about three decades for that.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So, um, yeah. I, I wish you luck on your therapy journey.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, wait, do you know how I found this therapist? I didn't even tell you. Our social media manager, Megan messaged me, or maybe it was our admin, Katie, I forget. Somebody messaged me and was like, Hey, you got some recommendations? 'Cause I think I like frantically shouted in one episode. Like I'm in Northern Kentucky, does anyone know a good therapist help me? And this person, whoever it was, I have to thank them, sent like a recommendation of a practice that they don't work for or anything, but they were like, Hey, yeah, this is a really good practice, very, uh, open, very accepting, LGBT friendly, etcetera. And I was like, oh, perfect. And so I looked at their page and I reached out and they matched me with someone. So yeah, that was a listener who helped me with that. So thank you. You guys really, umm, are just helping me... Life coach me through, through life. So I appreciate it.
Em Schulz: What a dream. That's very lovely, Christine.
Christine Schiefer: What a dream.
Em Schulz: Um, would you like to crack into it?
Christine Schiefer: I... Like I really would love nothing more than to just hear a story and forget about everything else.
Em Schulz: I have a story for you, Christine, and today we're drinking Liquid Death. We are pairing that with our drink. So let's [soda can cracking open] crack into it. Ah, Liquid Death pay me!
Christine Schiefer: Beautiful.
Em Schulz: I, like we do this every time. Okay. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Em, I, how many times do I have to tell you? First of all, Blaise still makes fun of you for the time you said they were like a small business at one time, and Blaise was like, aren't they?
Em Schulz: They were, they're not now. They were.
Christine Schiefer: I don't, I think they were never... I think they were... Well, maybe, but he, but I'm like, they're owned by like somebody big. I don't know. Dasani, Nestle...
Em Schulz: Now.
Christine Schiefer: But yeah. But like, they're not gonna pay you. You're giving them free promo.
Em Schulz: I know. But just know that I'm, I am doing, I'm... This is... I'm a martyr. That's what it is. Uh, and everyone should uh, be so happy.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm wrong. It's owned by, uh, oh, wait, hold on. Hmm. How mysterious.
Em Schulz: What? It's owned by like McDonald's or something?
Christine Schiefer: Interesting. No, no. I was wrong. Um, I was wrong. Oh, wow. Their brand is valued at $700 million. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Good for them.
Christine Schiefer: So, you know...
Em Schulz: Sounds like, they could pay me. Um anyway...
Christine Schiefer: It sounds like they don't need to.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know, I know. [laughter] Just trying to make myself feel better. Okay. Anyway, since we're talking about water, everybody seems to like when I fucking say it, and I'm always getting DMs, so I'm gonna keep saying it. This is your reminder to drink some water you thirsty little rats.
Christine Schiefer: I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't really, do I get it? Is it like a joke that I missed?
Em Schulz: Oh look, it's Christine, the naysayer. She's back after 20 minutes. Oh, wow. It didn't take long at all.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I took a long rest and I'm back. Uh, I'm back and I'm, I'm jazzed up to be, to be rotten. Um, [laughter] and I'd like...
Em Schulz: Typically, so.
Christine Schiefer: I'd like to know if, I guess I just, since you said, oh, people like love it and stuff, I'm like, can you explain it to me? 'cause I think I'm playing along, but I don't get it. Like, is it a joke that I just never understood? Or is it like you just say it for fun?
Em Schulz: People just like the reminder to drink some water.
Christine Schiefer: Is it in TikTok? I mean, the rat thing?
Em Schulz: Oh, nope. People just like being called rats.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. So that's not like I, 'cause I thought maybe it's a TikTok joke or something that I like didn't get. 'Cause I'm an ignoramus. But it's just a thing you invented, right?
Em Schulz: No, you're just, you're just, you're just not with it no matter what. That's all.
Christine Schiefer: Right. Okay, great. Just wanna make sure that's still what, what's happening.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: Uh, well, Christine, my favorite little rat.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Who, I hope you took that as a compliment. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I did. I love rats, as you know.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm, sick.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, anyway you don't, so I don't, I don't know. Again, I don't get it, but it's fine. I love it.
Em Schulz: Sometimes you don't have to understand. You just get to be part of the party, that's all. So, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's just party of rats. I guess. That's all of us today, and we're gonna hear a story which I wanted to make about calendars and like the one year and 3-6-5, it never happened. So un-unfortunately we don't get that. Instead we get a fun little tale, which I might need your help pronouncing because I think it's a German last name.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Uh. N-O-D-O-L-F. Nodolf. Nodolf?
Christine Schiefer: Nah uh. Not familiar to me in any way, but, all right, maybe Nodolf, I would say.
Em Schulz: That makes this more fun. Well this is the Nodolf, I'm gonna call it Nodolf Incident and...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] An incident.
Em Schulz: Uh. That word we both know pretty well. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh. And this is in Platteville, Wisconsin, which is not Plathville if anyone has been watching that, that ball of drama reality show.
Christine Schiefer: Art.
Em Schulz: Art, excuse me. Uh. This is Platteville, Wisconsin, and it's in an area known as the Driftless Region, which I love when a region gets its own name.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, and it's called the Driftless Region because I guess at one point glaciers never passed over it, like it, like the rest of the Midwest.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And the region was once an ancient layer of limestone. It was just all limestone. Um and it eroded over time, but it left these big mounds, which became like significant locations for indigenous people in the area. And then those indigenous people also built like thousands more like man made mounds. So.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: A lot of mounds in the area. Fun fact, Wisconsin out of everywhere in the world, I would have not won this trivia round. But Wisconsin is the area with the largest concentration of effigy mounds in the world.
Christine Schiefer: I would never have known that.
Em Schulz: I would've seen that on, on a multiple choice and been like it's obviously not Wisconsin.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I would've said Ohio there are a lot here and usually weird shit happens here. Like as far as uh when trivia questions are brought up, a lot of times Ohio just tends to be the answer because it's like just some weird random ass fact about Ohio. So I probably would've guessed. Um. But, yeah, I mean, Wisconsin, that's interesting. I had no idea.
Em Schulz: Yep. Fun fact. This is about to be a story of fun facts, my friend. So, um, we're truck full.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: The area was also rich in lead, and so indigenous people started mining for lead in the area until the lovely colonizers started moving in. Um and then they became their own miners and moved in on the lead deposits.
Christine Schiefer: They said, this is my lead now.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I said, I can't believe I discovered lead in front of a group of people holding lead.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Isn't this the craziest thing you guys, I'm such a good explorer. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And since the second white people got here, we've just been mansplaining to people how to do their own fucking job. It's like...
Christine Schiefer: It's so embarrassing. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's so embarrassing. Uh, anyways, so we were all these people had literally been holding onto lead for probably a hundred years. Then a white person shows up and goes there's this thing called lead. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. But it's mine.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] It's mine now.
Em Schulz: God. We've just always been five year olds on a playground. So in 1927, the town of Platteville was established in this area and due to the lead boom, it's a big mining area as we knew. And a mining school is officially opened in the town. Umm. And again, this is during the 1920s.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So later the school transitioned into just like a general college, not just a mining school. And by 1937 students used some of the stones in the area to build, like I guess the, um, I'm assuming the school started with an M or M for like mining or something. They really liked the word the letter M. And so in 1937, a bunch of students used stones in the area to construct an M into the hillside to like promote either the school or the town. I don't, there's an M.
Christine Schiefer: You have to understand that the way you said it sounds like they constructed a giant Em Schulz into the side of the mountain. Oh. You have to.
Em Schulz: It's actually.
Christine Schiefer: You have to understand that my mind went, they constructed a what? An a giant Em on the side of the mountain.
Em Schulz: I see.
Christine Schiefer: Oy vey.
Em Schulz: After I just talked about how shitty white people are and how this place is...
Christine Schiefer: Right, like your own mount Rushmore.
Em Schulz: Is full of like man-made indigenous effigy mounds. But there's a statue of me.
Christine Schiefer: There's statue of you in the cliff.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Sorry. The letter M.
Christine Schiefer: Understood.
Em Schulz: So, yeah. They took, they made a bunch, put a bunch of stones together. They made the letter M into the hillside. It's actually the world's largest hillside M and it is 241 feet tall.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And it's like just leaning up against one of the mounds. And it's now a landmark of the town is if you go to Platteville, you'll see this M in the hills. So this is where we hit our first big deep dive, um which leads us into our second deep dive. So I hope you weren't really invested in this story yet. We're about to spend the next 15 minutes talking about something else completely.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just here for the ride.
Em Schulz: Great. So, like I said, this school decided to put a big letter in the middle of their hill during the '20s and '30s. Apparently this was a very common thing. Um, and this is where I insert my own, my own, I don't know, random information for people to use nothing with, uh, or to use for nothing. But living in Burbank, one of our big landmarks is that we have a giant B on the hill in Burbank.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, right, yes. I do know about the B.
Em Schulz: The B, yes. It's called the Burbank B. And uh, it's in the Verdugo Mountains, which I, uh this is like one of the first landmarks when I moved to Burbank, I was like, oh my God, like did you know that we have a B? And everyone was like, yes. Yeah.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, so where I live, there's, uh, we're right up on mountains, the Verdugo Mountains, and uh, there is a B facing the town of Burbank. If you look up in the hills, there's a massive white B. It's as popular landmark's been around since the '20s or '30s, uh, just like this M has been. Here's the thing though.
Christine Schiefer: Is that would, they just did like their hobbies, like in the '20, like, I don't understand. Like they, they were just like, I know, let's write big letters out of rocks. That's what we do in the '20s.
Em Schulz: So it's, well, I will say the reason I bring up the Burbank B is because it's a town mystery how the B got there.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Um, allegedly it stands...
Christine Schiefer: Okay!
Em Schulz: Allegedly it stands for Burbank. Um, but we really don't know who put it there or when, or why, but the, there's like three main theories. One is that, um, the Burbank Chamber of Commerce put it there to promote the city because apparently everyone at the time was putting letters on the hill and they were like, we got a hill. Um, so let's put a B there. The other thought is that, um, there's a school nearby that, uh, is called Burroughs, John Burroughs High School. The thought is that they put it up there to stand for Burroughs, um, and not Burbank at all. But the main theory is that the key club at Burbank High School put the B up there. Um, sometime around the '20s or the '30s, that's the, the most, the overwhelming popular theory is that Burbank High School did the B. Um, at least with people I've talked to.
Christine Schiefer: What's Key Club? 'cause I'm very stupid.
Em Schulz: I don't know. Maybe I'm stupid too. I assumed it had something to do with singing for some reason. Like the, like the Chorus Key Club.
Christine Schiefer: What is a key club? Oh, I thought it was like, uh, a volunteer thing, but I could be wrong. I'll, I'll google it. Key club.
Em Schulz: You're probably right. What does key club do?
Christine Schiefer: A student led high school organization who make the world a better place through service. Okay. So yeah, it is like a volunteer thing.
Em Schulz: Well that's lovely. It's, I don't know why I thought key club, I guess. 'cause maybe they like... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Singing in minor key.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I don't know. But anyway, key club decided that they were going to put a B on the hill.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: We still don't totally know the origins of why, but the thought is that they did it because at the time a lot of people were doing this and they originally started with like white stones that they also put together to put out a letter. Then at one point it was chalk and it became like a tradition for students to go up there every year and re-chalk it so that the B would be bright when the school year started. And now it's literally white fencing over a black tarp. So that way it really pops.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: Um. So people that are usually of like e-either in Burbank the town, or go to Burbank High School think it stands for Burbank. But if you go to Burroughs I think there's like this like weird obligation to think that, that the B stands for Burroughs. And because of that, as someone who lives in Burbank, I can confirm that Burbank and Burroughs who are rivals, they, um, do a lot of pranks with the B, like during like homecoming, like if they play each other that John Burroughs.
Christine Schiefer: Wait when you say Burbank, do you mean like Burbank High School or like the town of Burbank?
Em Schulz: The town of Burbank and Burbank High School. Both seemed to think that the B stands for Burbank.
Em Schulz: Okay I didn't I didn't know there was a Burbank High school involved. And so I thought like when you said, oh, Burroughs High School and like Burbank play a lot of like pranks, I was like, Burbank is like a grown ass city. Like leave the high schoolers alone.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: But okay, you're saying there's there's also a high school that claims there's it's B for Burbank. I see.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Another fun fact, by the way, if you ever watched, I think it was Victorious, um, on Nickelodeon, the, the school, like they show you like the front of the school in between scenes. That's Burbank High School. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so they already have a win, you know?
Em Schulz: I know. But John Burroughs High is like known to be where like a bunch of like celebrities and kid actors go if they wanna have like the real high school experience, like all the 7th Heaven kids went there, I think. And like Matilda went there and um.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: There's, uh, Tim Burton went to Burroughs. It's like a very big, like people in Hollywood went to Burroughs thing.
Christine Schiefer: Matilda went there. That means Mrs. Trunchbull went there too.
Em Schulz: No. [laughter] Actually the Chokey is at John Burroughs High. Um. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: See they got it all, they got it all.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, it was that little girl with the pigtails. They actually threw her over the hill into the Burbank B.
Christine Schiefer: No! Oh, it's tragic.
Em Schulz: So, uh, anyway, they, the no, John Burroughs High School and Burbank High School are rivals. And during like homecoming season, they'll prank each other and like paint the B their school colors and stuff like that, or.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, that's fun.
Em Schulz: So sometimes it's red, sometimes it's blue, sometimes it's, you know. Um, and another fun fact, if you were to look at the mountain and then go to the other side of it, there's an H for Hoover High School in Glendale, which is the town on the other side of the mountain. So...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, they felt left out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: There's, well then I was like, why are there so many fucking schools putting letters on hills?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, what is happening? [laughter]
Em Schulz: And I guess this was a big thing in the 1920s and '30s where Hillside Letters became very popular, especially in southern California, but all over the place, including Platteville, Wisconsin with this big ass 240 foot M.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Um, because towns were, it started with colleges and high schools and then towns started adapting it when planes started needing to find their air fields from the sky. And so they started putting a letter.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: As like their code of like the airfield is nearby that you're looking for. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa I didn't know that.
Em Schulz: So the very first college or school hillside letter was at UC, Berkeley in 1905. Um. And they made this big ass C um, and for California, I guess. And it started this school letter craze and up to like 500 schools throughout the country have put a letter in a hillside because of it. Um, and this is this is.
Christine Schiefer: What! This is crazy. I I really didn't know about this.
Em Schulz: You should look up your, your schools in your area. I was gonna do that, um, last night and write a list of like the ones near you, but I didn't wanna triangulate you. But, um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: There's got.
Christine Schiefer: I'll do it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Maybe even like.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Um, but yeah, like University of Oregon, Loyola Marymount, like University of Utah has one. Um, like all these schools have a letter somewhere on a hillside.
Christine Schiefer: How... What did you type in?
Em Schulz: Um, school hillside letters.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Let's see. Um, whoa. Wow. Okay. This is interesting. Um, apparently this phenomenon doesn't seem to have really struck Cincinnati. Um, unless I'm just missing but... I mean...
Em Schulz: Okay. Well it has struck Platteville, Wisconsin and then California. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So [laughter] That's okay. How cool though. These, I mean, these look kind of cool.
Em Schulz: Um, yeah, it's, it's just like a weird fad that I guess happened and then it became a tradition to like maintain it, so it never really went away. So the Burbank B...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway. Likely became, it was part of that fad where like all the California schools in the area were doing it. And this is where...
Christine Schiefer: I see.
Em Schulz: I go into my second deep dive, um, that nobody fucking asked for.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: But do you know which hillside uh spelling lettering is the most famous in California that came out of this fad?
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Is it in Southern California?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Starts with an H.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Hollywood. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The Hollywood sign. Yeah. So, um, it was actually...
Christine Schiefer: Uhhh.
Em Schulz: I, I wanted to bring it up because like, when will I ever get to talk about it again? And I feel like a lot of people who didn't... Who haven't lived in the LA area, don't really, or maybe in California in general don't know the story of the Hollywood sign, um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which I'm not gonna take forever on it, but I just thought it was a, like a fun fact that if you don't live in California...
Christine Schiefer: It is, it is a cool story.
Em Schulz: You probably don't know about it. Um, so yeah, like I said, a bunch of towns started doing letters in the hills and some of them got... Had enough of a budget that they started doing just a full name of an area.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: So that way instead of doing a letter, they had a full phrase. And that is how we got the original sign, uh, in 1923 that said Hollywoodland, um.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And it was, it's the most famous example of these letters in the hills. And fun fact, Hollywoodland was actually just the name of like a real estate housing development, um.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It was like just a subdivision that was trying to, um, advertise that they were selling homes in this area. And it was supposed to be Hollywoodland was the subdivision of Hollywood, the town.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: And in 1923, the sign was supposed to be a temporary ad in the hills to like play into this like big 1920s craze of letters in the hills.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and the sign originally used to light up, it had 4000 light bulbs on it, and it would light up...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: Holly, it looked, would light up one by one, it'd go Holly, Wood, Land, Hollywoodland. And uh, so that fun fact, it used to light up and then even though it was meant to...
Christine Schiefer: That is crazy.
Em Schulz: Essentially be a billboard, um, it had like an 18 month contract, but then because it like gained so much notoriety during the time, um, it was, they asked to keep it and the chamber of commerce agreed, but they turned off the lights because it was too expensive. Fair fucking enough.
Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say that must have been, like for an advertisement in the '20s to have 4000 lights on it. Like they must have been making banks selling these properties.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: I know. So the lights stayed on for a decade too. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.
Em Schulz: 'Cause after the original contract and they kept it up, they were like, we want it to light up. And it's like the thing, so if you ever see like a movie portraying the Hollywood sign as like lighting up, you'll know if it's accurate or not. If it says Hollywoodland. And if the period...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm!
Em Schulz: Is from 1923 to 1933. Af... Between that, it never lit up. Um, and in 1949 they decided they were going to repair it because it was meant to be up for like 18 months. And now it's been up for like 25 years.
Christine Schiefer: You're right. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So it's like she's busted and they were like, we should rebuild her.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And I guess the contract stipulated that they would take away land because this whole time it had been promoting a housing development and not the actual town. It was like promoting Hollywoodland development...
Christine Schiefer: Uh.
Em Schulz: Instead of Hollywood, the town. So they got rid of land and, uh, it stayed up as Hollywood, did not light up at all. And then in 1978, this is the last fun fact, I'll tell you about it. A windstorm knocked it down or knocked down some of the words. And I guess the first O in Hollywood got split in half, like cut right down in the middle.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: So it looked like a lowercase U and then one of the other O's in wood got completely destroyed. And so if you looked at it for a long time, instead of it saying Hollywood, it said Hullywod, um...
[laughter]
Em Schulz: And people started, that was the beginning of people like...
Christine Schiefer: Hullywod.
Em Schulz: Making fun of the name and like using it during campaigns. So like re... The most recent one was like when weed was became legal here, the, someone went up and like changed the letters to spell Hollyweed. Like, so...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It was the, anyway, so when it said Hullywod, this led to like this big like star studded restoration campaign. And do you know the name of the A-lister or the celebrity who, uh, was really in charge with restoring the Hollywood sign?
Christine Schiefer: Um, do you know what year it was or like about?
Em Schulz: 1978.
Christine Schiefer: Mm. Uh, about...
Em Schulz: You don't have to answer.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, Pamela Anderson. I have no idea. I have no idea.
Em Schulz: Kinda. It was Hugh Hefner. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Em Schulz: Hugh Hefner, uh, because there's nine letters in Hollywood, he got, it was him and then he got eight of his friends to each donate. At the time it was $28,000, but in today's world it's $130,000.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: He got him and eight of his friends to each select a letter and donate today $130,000 to restore it, to put Hollywood back together and like have it maintained.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: So...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. And so I assume he got the H. H, H double H.
Em Schulz: He got the Y.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Nevermind.
Em Schulz: But you would think H for Hugh Hefner, Hollywood. Yeah. Right?
Christine Schiefer: Right. Right. I would think, but I guess, you know, somebody really wanted that H one of his friends maybe. I don't know.
Em Schulz: I guess so. But he got the Y and then other people who were involved were Alice Cooper, Gene Autry. He got Warner Brothers records to, uh, sponsor one of the letters. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: That is the long-winded double, double deep dive of um...
Christine Schiefer: I love it.
Em Schulz: Hillside letters. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, like, come on. Like, that's fascinating. And then do you ever start spinning out where you're like, imagine if we didn't have the internet, like we would just literally, like nobody would know. You just, there's no way to know these things, you know?
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: Anyway.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's, um...
Christine Schiefer: It's just fascinating.
Em Schulz: What I'm more fascinated by is the fact that there was a time without internet and enough was preserved to end up on the internet. Where I'm like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. And it makes you wonder like, what are we missing? Like, I'm sure there's so much we lost, anyway.
Em Schulz: Oh yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I'll have a cry about it later.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Take a weed gummy and you'll really spiral out for sure...
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna call Jordan late... I'll call Jordan later. [laughter] Poor Jordan.
Em Schulz: Um. Anyway, in case you forgot, we were talking about the Nodolf incident, um, and we left off...
Christine Schiefer: Oh! Yeah.
Em Schulz: Forever ago, where all you know so far is it's a big old area full of effigy mounds and a mining school came in and they put a big M in the hill, um, in one of their hills back in the twenties.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Okay. And a letter M to be clear, uh, not the exciting effigy of Em that I thought had been erected on a monume... As a monument, but it, the letter M, so, a little less...
Em Schulz: If anyone say, would like to put even like a bobblehead size statue of me somewhere, you can, I'll, I approve. You go for it.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Um.
Christine Schiefer: All right.
Em Schulz: But, uh, so the story really starts now with, okay, so now it's a mining town. People are very proud of that. And then this guy named Charles or Carl, depending on the version you hear, uh, Nodolf or Nodolf, um, he moved to the area from Germany. Now there's two versions to the story. There's more of like a legend version, and then there's like the what facts have told us version.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Um, the more folklore version is that Carl bought a cottage within view of the Platte Mound. Um, and that was, that happens to be the one with the M in it. Fun fact. Um, so he was within view of this mound, and he bought a homestead there. But weeks before, uh, he, before he officially moved in with his family, he had to go back to Germany to bring his fiance over. His fiance's name was Caroline, and he was gonna bring Caroline over from Germany. She was gonna meet him back at their home, and they were gonna live happily ever after. But she ends up dying of diptheria during her travels.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Shit.
Em Schulz: And the outbreak actually claimed most of her family who was traveling with her. And so everyone but her mom...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: And her sister ended up surviving, or ended up dying, sorry. Everyone but her mom and her sister.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, no.
Em Schulz: Carl felt like an obligation to her family that they just lost everyone. He just lost his fiance. And so, um, he had them move into the house with him, uh, so that way they could stay a family and he would take care of them, uh, to honor his wife or his fiance.
Christine Schiefer: That's nice.
Em Schulz: Um.
Christine Schiefer: So he's like, we didn't even get married yet, and you could all move in.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like, there's only three of us left now, which is sad.
Christine Schiefer: Quite a commitment.
Em Schulz: Um, Carl and the... Who would've been his sister-in-law, Louise fell in love drama.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Um, and I mean, his fiance wasn't there, so I guess technically he didn't do anything wrong. And so...
Christine Schiefer: I mean, yeah.
Em Schulz: But then it kind of feels like he did something wrong because he had to wait two years until she turned 18.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. Got weird.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Got weird.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Spoke too soon.
Em Schulz: There's no way. It can't become weird. Yeah. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So that's the folklore version, which what a lovely tale.
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Delightful. [laughter]
Em Schulz: The factual version is that Carl moved to the Platte Mound with a, the next to the mound with the big letter M in it. But the story immediately takes a shift from there, because instead of him having to go to Germany and collect his fiance and her family, the, the truer story is that his brother was married into that family and he only knew of them through his brother and, they had already settled in to town. They, there was no like traveling to Germany to have to collect everybody and so there was no diptheria outbreak. The family was alive and well, they all lived in the area. Um, and even worse than the folklore version, which I like that someone tried...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: To make it a little less offensive.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Um, Carl's sister-in-law, Louise, who he fell in love with in the folklore version, he did fall in love with her here too, but instead of her being 16, she was nine...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it's so much worse. Oh, no.
Em Schulz: And at 18, so this part, the folklore got right at 18, they got married, but sounds like someone was waiting a long time, gross. Um, I don't know. Maybe they fell in love on her 18th birthday. Let's assume. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Let's hope. And pray.
Em Schulz: Let's hope.
Christine Schiefer: And, and just know that that's not the truth. But, you know. Well it's the truth want...
Em Schulz: Let's, let's just cover our eyes and go la la la. And on her 18th birthday, it's, there's a wedding. The couple made a happy life together. They had two kids who they named Minnie and Louis. So it's Carl, Louise with Minnie and Louis.
Christine Schiefer: Cute.
Em Schulz: And in 1880, the incident happens.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Uh-oh.
Em Schulz: Where Carl and Louise see a storm rolling through town and it's a bad storm. Remember, they're like right up on tornado alley.
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: The storm seemed to be aimed right at them. Interestingly, they said that the storm was so narrow that you could see a clear sky on either side of its path.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Which feels super duper ominous.
Christine Schiefer: So sinister. Yeah.
Em Schulz: They secured all the shutters. They put everything away that could blow away. They locked all the doors, and pretty soon it starts torrential downpouring, gale force winds. They all stay in for the night. They even claim to hear wolves howling over the thunder, which like, how loud does a wolf howl for it to be over thunder?
Christine Schiefer: They're probably like, let me in, it's wet out here.
Em Schulz: It's wet out here. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: It's banging on the fucking doors. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um. So they're hearing wolves. Um. They all feel very on edge...
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: Well, the, the adults feel on edge. Their kids at this point are like four years old and two years old. So I don't know if they're on edge, but, oh yeah. So everyone just like, it's just a weird scenario. It just feels off. Hours later, after they've slept a little, thunder shakes the whole house and wakes up Louise and she wakes up to her daughter, Minnie, who's four crying for help from her own bedroom.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no.
Em Schulz: Louise goes to comfort her kid, but when Louise gets there, Minnie and Louis are gone, totally missing.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: So she heard them crying for help and now they're nowhere to be found.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: The couple freaks out and searches the entire house, even though all the windows and doors are still completely bolted from the inside, because of the storms.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Completely bolted. And they're four and two. They wouldn't, I don't think even know how to unlock it. If, if they could reach it, maybe they could, maybe Minnie could at least, but they're too small. They wouldn't have been able to unlock anything...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway. And then also, they wouldn't have been able to...
Christine Schiefer: Re-lock it.
Em Schulz: Re-lock it from the outside. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So Carl and Louise are searching for them. They know that they have to be somewhere in the house because they're locked inside. Um. And they hear their, they start shouting their children's names, wondering where they are and they hear their kids all of a sudden calling back to them from outside.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: So Carl unbolts all the doors and runs around and finds them outside standing in the pouring rain. And they grab the kids and rush them inside to the fire to dry them off and get them warm but, even though they were standing outside in the pouring rain, seemingly for at least several minutes, they were absolutely bone dry. Clothes, hair, body.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: As if they had some invisible umbrella over them, totally dry. Um, it also didn't make sense that Minnie like vanished from her room just seconds after calling for help...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: They heard her in her room. Then she was gone. Then she was outside. So in the time that it took them to find them is how long she allegedly was missing.
Christine Schiefer: What in the world?
Em Schulz: They kept asking the kids what happened, how'd they get outside. The kids just keep saying, "I don't know." And I mean, they're four and two...
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: So maybe they really didn't know. But eventually the kids tried telling what happened, but every time they would try to describe the event, they started stuttering and couldn't get the words out. And they were not known to stutter, but it was almost like...
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: They couldn't, like they were prevented in some way 'cause they would be talking fine until they had to discuss the event. And then they would only stutter.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck happened?
Em Schulz: The harder they would try to talk about it, the more they would stutter until it was clear that they were never gonna be able to explain what happened and give up. And then they would go back to talking about something else and no more stutter.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: Um, the family eventually gave up asking because they were like, anytime we bring it up, they can't get the words out. So let's just kind of hope that one day you just forget this event and you know, you went missing, and then five minutes later we found you and that's all we're gonna chalk it up to. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, I guess the good thing is they were found. So at the very least, like they don't need to rehash it over and over, but... Jeez.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, and, uh, only after this event, Minnie and Louis both developed stutters, which stayed for the rest of their lives, especially whenever talking about the event.
Christine Schiefer: Really?
Em Schulz: Um, they had six more kids later and none of them ever stuttered. Side note, I'm saying stutter because I don't think a lot of people actually know the correct term these days, these days, but instead of stuttering, people now say either child onset fluency disorder or fluency disorder or a dis-fluency. Fun fact.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Eventually the family and what happened to them became local lore and people still can't explain what happened. Some people think that Carl and Louise, like at the same time without any history of this, slept walked in unison and locked their own kids out. That's the first theory people go with.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: And maybe like, I guess you could branch out of like, Oh, maybe they were drinking or something. Maybe they were like not thinking, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Or like maybe one parent was asleep and the other parent was sleepwalking. You know?
Em Schulz: Right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I don't know.
Em Schulz: Carl suggested that this is just blatantly racist. That perhaps...
Christine Schiefer: Cool.
Em Schulz: A group of Romani people had attempted to kidnap their kids. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. It always ends up that way. Doesn't it? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Isn't it? You just blame, just blame people who weren't even fucking there.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So he says, maybe they tried to kidnap my kids but the storm made it too difficult. But beyond that being wildly racist with and baseless by the way, there were no Romani communities in the area. Romani people didn't travel around stealing children.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, and also if like, why would kidnappers give up after they've already napped the kids? You know what I'm saying? Like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it doesn't make... It didn't make any sense.
Em Schulz: They already got them out of the house. Just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So, if they, why would you leave then? Like leave them? Whatever. It doesn't even...
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't make sense.
Em Schulz: Matter, 'cause it's stupid. Um...
Christine Schiefer: It's not real.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's literally not real. Uh, some say that the house was haunted and speculation is that it was Carl's fiance who was jealous that he ended up with her sister and had kids with her and for 15 minutes only decided to haunt them and then steal her own niece and nephew. That's another version.
Christine Schiefer: And then give them back. [laughter]
Em Schulz: And then give them back. Oh, nevermind these kids are too damn much. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um. But also remember like the fiance never actually existed in the real version of the story, only the folklore version.
Christine Schiefer: Sure. True.
Em Schulz: So it doesn't even matter. The simple option is that Carl and Louise just made this whole thing up. Um, also, if, if they did make it up, maybe their kids just happened to develop a fluency disorder at the same...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Around the same time. And they just put that into the story.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, at, at that age, like you're starting to talk, you know, I mean, you maybe wouldn't have even encountered the...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Fluency issue yet, you know, so maybe it was just, it hadn't come out yet, you know, or hadn't been recognized yet.
Em Schulz: Yeah, that is typically the age that people develop a fluency disorder.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: So, they, they could have just been two things that happened at the same time...
Christine Schiefer: I'm all over it with my, I feel like my whole world of like kids speech and all that has been, it's, you just kinda know it, all of a sudden, you know so much about it when you have a child 'cause it's like, [laughter] all the articles and headlines and like, what's, you know, when to talk to a doctor, when not, you know. So I feel like yeah, that, that makes sense. That it would be around that age.
Em Schulz: Well, so far, it doesn't sound like Leona's having any fluency issues when she says Wobbly Mountain every five seconds. So, um...
Christine Schiefer: Wobbly Mountain and uh...
Em Schulz: She might have an OCD issue.
Christine Schiefer: She's speaking.
Em Schulz: She might have... [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, she...
Em Schulz: She might...
Christine Schiefer: Certainly does. Multiple people have come up to me and been like, um, just so you know there, you know, she's, she's showing some signs of like some perhaps OCD tendencies. And I'm like, I mean, yeah. Is anybody surprised? No...
Em Schulz: Yeah. She's, when, when you're the mom, she's gonna have something, but I think it's gonna be maybe, uh...
Christine Schiefer: Something.
Em Schulz: She's just gonna like weirdly highlight the same text nonstop on the screen or something.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: Like, it's just...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's like, it could be worse. [laughter]
Em Schulz: It's, like she, but did she die? No. Like she's fine, you know. She's...
Christine Schiefer: Did she die? And also like, you know what, at least I know what it is and what to do.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know, what, how to, how to handle it, 'cause I, 'cause I'm like, same girl. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Plus Funcle Em's got the stash over here. So one day when she's big enough for some Xanax, we'll try some things out.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.
Em Schulz: She'll be fine.
Christine Schiefer: I'm glad we're planning...
Em Schulz: She'll be fine.
Christine Schiefer: Planning that out. Wait, question, what was it...
Em Schulz: What.
Christine Schiefer: That you noticed where you were like, oh, there's OCD tendencies. I'm just collecting a little, I'm making a little list just to know for my own.
Em Schulz: Uh, well, I don't, I don't know if it is, but I, I have my own sensitivities because my, um, mom still to this day won't shut up about it that I was, and also, I don't think it's OCD, I thou... I would imagine it's more like hyper fixating, but she's also literally fucking like two, like, she's allowed to like be stoked about Wobbly Mountain all day.
Christine Schiefer: Literally, fairly. [laughter]
Em Schulz: But, um, my mom to this day will talk about how she should have seen signs of me like being hyper focused on things because there was this one game I would, I made up and I would play it nonstop for hours. And she'd be like, you, I didn't even have to worry about a babysitter because I could have left you in this room.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: And you would've played this game that you created from sunrise until sunset. And you would've never gotten bored.
Christine Schiefer: By yourself?
Em Schulz: And if, by myself. I was also an only child. [laughter] Everything I did was by myself.
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: But...
Christine Schiefer: But I'm like, 'cause Leona will not play by herself. She's like, somebody else needs to like walk me up Wobbly Mountain or be entertained by my drawing skills.
Em Schulz: That girl was destined for a sibling, my friend. I don't know what to tell you...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: But that was not how I operated...
Christine Schiefer: What was the game? What was the game?
Em Schulz: It wasn't even a fun game. It was just, I truly, it feels, uh, it feels like I was just, there was just... There was... We had two dogs at the time and, it was like the '90s thing to do where you would get like those like ceramic statues of your whole family, like you'd get like the, you know, like the, remember the chair with all the bears and every bear had like a little name...
Christine Schiefer: Precious Moments.
Em Schulz: Precious Moments. That's what it was.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: We had a Precious Moment statue of both of our dogs.
Christine Schiefer: Those things. [chuckle]
Em Schulz: And, uh, I, [chuckle] I, it was just that I had... I would take one statue of a dog and bring it over to the table and put it in the drawer, and then I would walk back over and I'd grab the other one and I would walk away and I would put it in the drawer. And then I would pick up one of the dogs from the drawer and I would walk all the way back over and put it, give it to my mom. And then I would walk all the way back over and I would put... Like, I kind of think I maybe I have like some spectrum tendencies also.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That is unique.
Em Schulz: But I would do it, I would do, I truly, I would do it forever. Like I, I, there's even audio footage of my mom thinking the microphone was not working on the camera apparently. And you can hear her go, I think something's wrong.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Okay. So she, she was like clearly onto something.
Em Schulz: She was onto something.
Christine Schiefer: Wowza.
Em Schulz: Uh, but she didn't know what it was, I think she just thought I was really good at self entertaining. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Which I was. But anyway, I don't think, uh, Leona has that yet. But if she ever is as obsessed with that as I was with my weird statue game...
Christine Schiefer: I'll be, I'll be, I'll be honest...
Em Schulz: The girl might have some hyper focus issues. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I wou... I wish she was focused on something 'cause Wobbly Mountain, I mean she's two, but Wobbly Mountain lasts maybe five minutes. It's like the longest it ever gets played is like, she goes up and down and up and down and up and down. And then like 10 minutes later she's like, she just like throws herself off and it's like, let's draw, like nothing lasts for that long.
Em Schulz: Oh, well then that totally throws off my entire theory. So...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah...
Em Schulz: I guess I don't have anything.
Christine Schiefer: The OCD thing is, is more just like if a drawer is open, like she will like freak the fuck out, you know and has to close every...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Drawer and door.
Em Schulz: I don't think you need any more of a list my friend. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Right. Like things that I, things that I do where I'm like, I just wanna make sure that this isn't just my influence like being, you know what I mean? That she, but it seems to be all her. She just has these very specific things that need to be the right way.
Em Schulz: It sounds like all her. I've never seen you panic about a drawer or a dresser or anything. So...
Christine Schiefer: You... 'Cause I hide it.
Em Schulz: Maybe she's just got a different flavor or whatever you, you've got going on.
Christine Schiefer: My drawer and dresser thing is very different. I have to tap the inside of it three times before I close it. Never said that to you before, but that's one of them. Surprise.
Em Schulz: What? Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, I'm gonna call Jordan after, I'm texting her right now. That's insane. Um. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, she knows. I'm just kidding. [laughter]
Em Schulz: No, I, I haven't noticed anything yet.
Christine Schiefer: You didn't know that about me?
Em Schulz: No, I did not know that. I'm still learning things about you after a whole year of episodes.
Christine Schiefer: I'm very good at hiding things. He-he-he-he.
Em Schulz: I knew about your, your highlighting text thing, but that's because you can't hide that from me when we're on the same Google drive.
Christine Schiefer: 'Cause I can't hide it in a Google doc. It's a, it's a curse.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And when we used to record, remember when we would record in your old house, we would sit next to each other.
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: As you would tell stories.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be like.
Em Schulz: So I was like, this is, for an hour and a half. I'd be like, girl, [laughter], let's... I could see, what you were doing.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just glad I didn't have epilepsy the way, the way I was just like fucking flashing my screen like you would've been in such big trouble.
Em Schulz: Um, no, I don't see any tendencies just yet, I guess of of Leona. But I have no doubt something will appear at some point.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I mean, I honestly think about it, you know statistically speaking, but it's okay.
Em Schulz: But she's gonna be a good type. I don't even, it's like she's just gonna have a quirk. If I had a kid, they'd have 10 quirks by now, so, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I can't wait, I can't wait for that. I can't wait for you to buy Precious Moments, dolls of your family and see what happens. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm good at. You know what happens? How about this, how about as a gift I buy Leona two. Uh, I'll do Juniper and Moonshine and get her Precious Moments of them and we'll see what she does with them in a drawer for five hours. How about that?
Christine Schiefer: They're smashed immediately. [laughter] Like you're, they're... Don't even spend money on that. They're gone. There's no way that, she's also related to me, like, they're gonna crash into a million pieces and it's gonna be like emotionally damaging, and then I'm gonna have to deal with it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um Eva, if you're listening, we, um, I do, I'll send you the video of me passing the, the dogs back and forth nonstop. I don't know if I have the clip of my mom saying...
Christine Schiefer: I want that.
Em Schulz: Something's wrong, but she does imply it, so, you'll hear it for sure.
Christine Schiefer: You can just call, call Linda. She'll say it now. She'll say as something's wrong.
Em Schulz: She would say it now.
Christine Schiefer: She'd get it on audio.
Em Schulz: She'd be like, I, she was like, some, it was my own fault that I didn't take you to a doctor sooner because was, it's obvious. Something was like you self entertaining...
Christine Schiefer: It's all our parents faults, you know, it's always, and it's their parents' fault. It's always everyone's parents' fault, you know. It's just what it is.
Em Schulz: Yeah, mom, it's your fault. You take it up with your own therapist.
Christine Schiefer: They know. [laughter] You know what you did.
Em Schulz: Honestly, I was such a fucking weird kid that that one probably just flew under the radar compared to everything else. So, I'm not really all that surprised.
Christine Schiefer: It was like this, this at least you're enter... At least you're babysitting yourself. Like that's huge. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah, I was having a good time.
Christine Schiefer: I wish I, I wish somebody, I wish Leona would entertain herself every now and then at least, but no.
Em Schulz: You know what? Maybe she just hasn't found the right game. A Funcle Em will show her. Don't worry. That's...
Christine Schiefer: Maybe not.
Em Schulz: I, I got it. I got the hook up.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, great. You handle it. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Um. Where were we? Oh, oh, oh, okay. So I only have a little bit left here, but um people think that either they made it up, they think that maybe they, it never happened at all. They think it might be a ghost. They think they were sleepwalking. Um. Some people who did think that Carl and Louise were making it up, they were like, well, maybe they just wanted a story. But they were new to the area. Maybe they like, well, that was the way that they wanted things to go. Um. But neighbors remember seeing them completely disturbed about this for like months afterwards. Like they could not figure out if their kids were safe or like where their kids are going, because now they're, I mean, they lost their kids with no real explanation. So now they're probably panicked every night.
Christine Schiefer: That's, it's scary.
Em Schulz: That they're gonna lose their kids. Um. It was obvious that something happened. So maybe other people think like poltergeist because that would make sense of like luring the children out, being able to open the door and lock them out. Um. But, I mean people also who go to the area still say that they hear like phantom voices and creepy sounds at night, but like a poltergeist doesn't usually last for like 15 minutes. It's like an ongoing problem.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It seems like a weird...
Em Schulz: Um. Because after this has never.
Christine Schiefer: Very powerful thing to happen one time and then, like, you know it's just odd. It would be odd, I think, but I don't know.
Em Schulz: Well, this is where we get into Christine's favorite, which is, some people theorize aliens could be responsible.
Christine Schiefer: I knew it. I mean, I theorize the second you told me they were outside. I was and they weren't wet. I was like, well, fucking aliens, obviously.
Em Schulz: Yep. So many people consider this one of the earliest records of a US alien abduction. And in the...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: I mean, it has the classic lost time aspect where...
Christine Schiefer: Yup.
Em Schulz: The kids don't know what happened. They don't know how they got outside. People heard them in the house, then all of a sudden they were outside of the house and it was minutes later. So maybe for us it felt like minutes maybe they actually were gone for a long time. Um. They disappeared seconds after calling for help, reappeared later. Uh. Maybe something happened that keeps them from remembering or being able to describe the experience.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. 'Cause they can't talk...
Em Schulz: Like maybe aliens...
Christine Schiefer: About it, which I...
Em Schulz: They can't talk about it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That feels like an alien thing, right? Yeah.
Em Schulz: To have like the sudden onset disfluency as if like they did something to like warp their ability to share about it. Um, also it feels like they were shielded in some way from the rain because they were not wet, even though there was a literal fucking, like, tornado outside. Um, or it was like a torrential downpour.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And that suggests like technologically advanced things, especially for the, I, it was either like the late 1800s or early 1900s that this story was. Um, so yeah. Something that they had never seen before, uh, kept their kids dry and maybe even Carl and Louise were the abducted ones, which is why it seemed like the kids vanished suddenly. Like maybe they had, maybe they had done something to like either save their kids or get their kids out of the house and they just don't remember anything. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: So anyway, if, if that is, to me, that's the theory that makes the most sense. I know like UFOs and aliens are like, first you have to believe in UFOs and aliens for the theory to make sense.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But for me, it makes total sense that it would be an alien abduction.
Christine Schiefer: I think it was aliens. I, I'll be honest, I, I, I think it was aliens. I mean, why else? The, the dryness, the, like not being or being so traumatized, they can't talk about it. Or they, they develop like this disfluency when they try to talk about it, it's so traumatizing. They're so freaked out. They don't even know what happened. They're dry from the rain. They're outside of a locked house. They're little kids near like a, an area that has a lot of like, uh, I don't know, rich cultural history. I don't know. I think, I think it was aliens.
Em Schulz: Well, even think like if, like this was way before the 1950s UFO craze, so they wouldn't have even had the context to talk about it. Like they wouldn't have known how to say a flying car.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right.
Em Schulz: They wouldn't have even been able to say car. Maybe I don't, I don't even fucking know how far back in history this goes, but a flying machine of people who don't look like people...
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck.
Em Schulz: Like they wouldn't know what to say.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I mean for a 4-year-old. Yeah. Like how do you even con-conceptualize that?
Em Schulz: A 2-year-old? He had to just think he was dreaming the whole fucking time is like this. I don't know. I have no idea how you process that. It's like, I mean, they say all, all, all the time on TikTok. It's like, imagine explaining this to a Victorian child, but imagine explaining a UFO abduction to like a 2-year-old from the 1910s. You know, like they're, you just, it's impossible.
Christine Schiefer: They'll be like, I'm sorry, I can't talk to you. Your arms are showing and that's illegal or something. [laughter] And I'd be like, oh, right. I can't even have a conversation with you. So let alone like tell you about aliens. You know.
Em Schulz: There's so many people who think like, if I could go back in time, what year would I go? And it's like, if you were to go back as you are exactly right now, like you don't get to change...
Christine Schiefer: It's not happening.
Em Schulz: Your clothes. I'm currently in only underwear. If I just flopped onto a field in the 1700s, I, oh my God, I can't even imagine what they would do. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Oh, imagine.
Em Schulz: Anyway, similarly to UFO abductions because, uh, UFO abductions, again, that was a big thing that happened in the 1950s, but this was before that. So if it wasn't a UFO abduction, another theory is that the kids might have been taken by fairies, um, that time passes differently. Similarly, similarly to UFO abductions, if fairies take you time passes differently. And in a lot of traditions, fairies actually live beneath mounds like the Platte Mound that they lived nearby.
Christine Schiefer: Oh.
Em Schulz: Um, fairies are also said to use magic to prevent people from talking about them, which would explain the disfluency.
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: And a lot of contemporary folklorist say that UFO abductions are actually fairy abductions that were bastardized through an American lens. Because there's a lot of similarities to if an alien abducts you versus if a fairy takes you.
Christine Schiefer: Ohh. Sure.
Em Schulz: But because we're all obsessed with UFOs over here our natural between the two is to assume, oh, an alien. Got you.
Christine Schiefer: Right. It's just like a different naming of it. Wow. That is interesting. I didn't realize that.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. So could be any of those things. A note to this day it has not been solved. We don't know. Um. Whatever happened, people still consider the location extremely mysterious and paranormal and even haunted.
[vocalization]
Em Schulz: And that is the Nodolf Incident.
Christine Schiefer: Wowza dude, I can't believe I've never heard of that, honestly.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I looked it up to, um, to try to get more insight. There's like shockingly little information out there on it. So, I mean.
Em Schulz: No doubt... I mean...
Em Schulz: Shout out to Saoirse for the research.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes, thank you Saoirse. Um, I typed Nodolf Incident and it says, uh, link... Connect with Scott Nodolf on LinkedIn. No, thanks.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: It doesn't have a lot of quick links. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: That's, that's wild. What a story. Um, well I, uh, I think it was aliens. So that's my hot take. Um.
Em Schulz: I also think it was aliens or fairies. One of the two.
Christine Schiefer: Great. I think it was aliens. So here we go. I have a story for you today, Em, that I've been wanting to do for a very long time. Uh, and it is the story of the Lipstick Killer.
Em Schulz: It's interesting when you say that you wanted to do something for a long time because the fact that I feel like I know you so well and I know what's going on in that twisted little brain of yours... But then you just say things like that and I'm like, I've never heard of it.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So I clearly didn't know what you were thinking about this whole time.
Christine Schiefer: But, you didn't know about my drawer tapping. So, you know, there's a lot you don't know, I'm a secret vault.
Em Schulz: The way that I will be clocking that from now on though, like a hawk is very interesting.
Christine Schiefer: You won't see it. I've hid it from everyone, my whole life. [laughter],
Em Schulz: I think I just haven't seen...
Christine Schiefer: There's a reason nobody knows about it.
Em Schulz: I don't think I've seen you near enough drawers. If I take you to like an antique store with a bunch of furniture though, maybe I open a bunch of doors to drawers and just see what happens. You know.
Christine Schiefer: Just like, be like, uh, the David Attenborough, like, and the specimen walks toward the old armoire [laughter], with her little fingies outstretched. She thinks no one can see her, but if she doesn't tap the inside of the drawer three times, her whole family will die. So let's watch. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Ohhh.
Christine Schiefer: It's fun. We have fun. Yeah. Well, we laugh...
Em Schulz: Because if we don't we'll cry. Yes, I understand.
Christine Schiefer: That's, uh, one of my gifts. Make everything, make everything sad. Okay. Here is the Lipstick Killer, which I said to you like, oh, that you would know it, but I guess not. But I remember one of our earliest episodes, like truly like three or four, I mentioned this guy and I and you said, oh, you should cover that someday. So you did at one point know about it, but I think in my mind it was so...
Em Schulz: One whole dog year later you're doing it, Christine. I'm very excited.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Just for you, even though you have no memory of that apparently. Um, but you might actually remember one part of it that is like the, the famous visual element of it. So we'll see if you, we'll see if you pick up, pick up on it. But this is the story of the Lipstick Killer. This is actually a two-parter. Okay, folks. So...
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Buckle up.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. So it's the story of William Heirens and, uh, we're just gonna start off with his childhood. So he was born in Chicago, William George Heirens in November, 1928, which was just about a year before, uh, the Notorious Black Monday stock market crash of October 28th, 1929, which, you know, sent the US into, uh, the Great Depression and started that whole era. Um, and at the time he, he was, uh, the son of a florist. His father had a flower business. And when the Great Depression hit, his flower business went under. And of course, like so many families in that era, um, William who went by Bill, uh, his family was, uh, thrown into poverty and that's how he grew up.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So in addition to being impoverished, his parents argued constantly. So he had a very, very high tension and strained home life. Um, but, you know, plenty of kids were in this exact same position and had to find ways to cope and entertain themselves. I guess they could have used a little Precious Moments of a dog and put it in a drawer, [laughter] and that might have done the trick. But [laughter], I, I don't know if that was option, an option, um, but for what it's worth, Bill was very creative. He loved to draw. He was very like into arts and crafts.
Christine Schiefer: He liked to tell stories to his younger brother, and he liked to tinker and try to fix things around the house. Um, but he was largely unsupervised. And as he got older, he, as some kids do, tended to gravitate toward more troubling ways to fill his time. Um, for example, when he was 12 years old, he worked as a cashier at a grocery store, which by the way, imagine being 12 and like you're supporting your family by working at a grocery store. It's just so sad, you know, it's just really sad.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So he's working at a cashier and one day he got his math wrong, uh, during a transaction, and he accidentally shortchanged his drawer by about a dollar, which today is about $21.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So that was not good. And he knew he had to like, find a way to make that up to get a dollar. So he ended up stealing a dollar from someone else to avoid getting in trouble.
Em Schulz: Uh-oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. So it's basically like he was trying to get to keep things right. And then it just went sideways, you know? Um.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so the way that he was, uh, stealing this dollar, he reached through a slightly ajar door in an apartment building. Um, and it had a chain lock, but it was like slightly open. So he reached through where the chain lock was, and there was an open purse right inside the door. And so he stole the dollar...
Em Schulz: Oh, that's convenient. That's like wildly, yeah, wildly uh, convenient.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think he wandered around looking for like an open apartment to steal from. I don't think it was like the first one he found... He just was...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: He didn't like just manifest a perfectly open purse, you know?
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe he did, I don't know. But he's, he happened to find somebody who had left their door open and he was able to, you know, reach in and steal some money. And when he did that, he got a thrill out of it, which is...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: Where things go wrong. Um, he began stealing regularly. He went after anything from money and expensive property, like guns and radios to things that were pretty much useless. Just like, so he, sometimes he would just steal for the sake of stealing, you know, like not a Les Mis situation, but like more just for funsies, um. [laughter] And so of course, on the one hand his family's struggling and he's helping to provide a little bit for them in Les Mis fashion. But um, on the other hand, some of the items he stole included men's boxers, handkerchiefs, um, things that, like, he just kept as like little trinkets not actually to support the family. Um, and he later claimed he actually never sold anything he stole. Like the things he stole were not for profit. It was just like for the thrill of stealing. Um.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And there was something about stealing that sort of, uh, relieved, I guess his home life tension. Like it was able, it was like an outlet for him. And, uh, it became his favorite hobby. Um, later when his parents asked him...
Em Schulz: What a neat little daily activity!
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know. It's like he didn't have a hoop and stick. So why not [laughter], pilfer, pilfer uh a handkerchief?
Em Schulz: Christine for the rest of our days. I don't know what it is. I don't know what episode we started saying hoop and stick, but like that...
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I don't either.
Em Schulz: It, it was is and always will be the funniest thing that can come outta your fucking mouth. Like.
Christine Schiefer: I know. Why do we say it? I just love it.
Em Schulz: Why do we sell our own hoop and stick, yet I don't under... We have to... Eva write that down...
Christine Schiefer: We've, you said that once, once a year every year we've, we've, we've, we need to find a...
Em Schulz: How hard can it be to sell a hoop and stick? How hard? It's two pieces of wood [laughter] It's a hoop and a stick.
Christine Schiefer: It's a hoop and a stick. It sells itself! Okay. So he, he started this great pastime, um, and later his parents asked him, like, when this all started, and he said he got the idea from comics and radio shows that made stealing seem like a thrill.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so after this sort of petty crime spree, uh, of course he was eventually gonna get caught. And he finally did, in June of 1942, at age 13, he was caught breaking into a locker in a basement near his home. And he was sentenced to a yikes, Roman Catholic juvenile detention center in Indiana, um, which is like sort of a correctional school, um, but with very strict Roman Catholic, um, oversight. And, uh, apparently he was a stellar student there. He followed all the rules.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: He was well behaved, he got good grades. Um, and so when he returned to Chicago, it was almost like he had been reformed, but he of course fell quickly back into his old habits because he just could not resist stealing. And he was arrested again. He was sentenced to another Catholic institution. This time, it was a private school in Peru, Illinois, not Peru. Um. [laughter], Peru, Illinois, the Midwest.
Em Schulz: I like the Illinois.
Christine Schiefer: Side note. Yeah. The, the, the Midwest loves to like, create, I mean, I was talk if my brother and I talk about all the time, but there's a town in Kentucky called "Ver-sales", which is spelled like Versailles. Um, or is it in Indiana? I don't know. But it's called Versailles. Like I feel like people just love to take like European stuff and then pronounce it wrong in the Midwest. Um, so for all I know, it could be like "Pee-ru", not Peru, I don't know, but [laughter], Peru, Illinois, uh. I've no idea how it's pronounced. Um, but while he was there, Bill thrived, again, like this sort of structured school environment really worked for him. Um, and when he was just 16 years old, he qualified for a new program that admitted excelling students to the University of Chicago based just on academic merit.
Christine Schiefer: So like, he really kicked ass in school. Um, he skipped his senior years of high school and went immediately to college to get a bachelor's of science. And what he wanted to do was become an electronic engineer. So in later 1945, Bill was 17 years old. He was starting this new life. He was living on campus at the University of Chicago. It like looked as though he had totally turned things around. Um, he started doing some legal hobbies, like ballroom dance classes, which like what a turn of events to go from petty theft to ballroom dancing that has, uh, a new Hollywood blockbuster film written all over it. Um.
Em Schulz: It really does feel like a, like a West Side Story or something of a like, yeah, I just think, or like a, an Oliver Twist something where there's just a lot of theft and a lot of music and for no reason they're...
Christine Schiefer: And a lot of music.
Em Schulz: They just go hand in hand. It is like Les Mis.
Christine Schiefer: I told you Les Mis, did I not? I've thrown that out like three times now. So just saying...
Em Schulz: You're right. You're onto something for sure.
Christine Schiefer: Um, I've, by the way, never seen Les Mis so you know what? I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm, I'm pretending.
Em Schulz: Crime and, and singing. Yeah, it's vague enough. It makes sense.
Christine Schiefer: It's French, all that shit. [laughter] You know. [laughter] So he starts his legal hobbies as in ballroom dancing, chess. He got really into classical music. Like he is nerding out in the best way. Um, he was pretty popular. He was socially very successful, had an active dating life. Um, one member of his dance class later said, Bill was the most popular boy there describing him as handsome, smart, and a good dancer. Everyone wanted to be his partner. Um, but internally, Bill really was struggling, which people didn't realize, uh, his classes were more difficult than he anticipated. I mean, keep in mind he's 17 and like all he's ever known is like this life of working and trying to support his family and, and stealing. And now he's 17 and is like thrown into college campus. Um, and so he struggled with his classes. Uh, he had to work a lot harder than other students to keep up. And one source says that Bill's mother had raised him to have a very puritanical view of sex.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um, that it was, that it was wrong. Um, and as a, as a Catholic school child, a former child, uh, I can at least attest that I'm sure in his reform schools it was frowned upon and talked about as a bad thing. So I don't know if his mother said it, but at the very least I'm sure the Catholic upbringing didn't help. Um.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so he had this, this extreme anxiety about anything sexual. Like he, he would cry if he even kissed a woman or he really, really, um, I don't know. He, he, this is, again, I wanna be clear too, this is just one source that claimed this. So I'm not 100% sure if just take it with a boulder of salt as we say. Um, but you know, it does add a little bit of texture to the story if it's true. Um, that he would sometimes even get sick when he kissed women. Um, which, you know, that could be a number, a whole host of, of reasons why that would happen.
Em Schulz: The irony, the irony of purity culture being your demon. Like, like your big.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: The skeleton you have to deal with.
Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right. I mean, you know, and if, I'm sure there's all sorts of, probably tangled stuff in one's mind if if you're in that state.
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: But his anxieties piled up, um, and Bill just like couldn't cope very well. And so he turned back to his favorite hobby, his favorite pastime, which was burglary.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And as he started this getting back into burglary, um, the US meanwhile was, was trying to climb back out of its, you know, Great Depression financial crisis. And we were creeping toward the end of World War II. Um, but still in June of that year, a lot of, uh, media focus was about World War II. And so when 43-year-old Josephine known as Josie Alice Ross was found murdered in her Chicago home in June of 1945, that didn't even make the front page, even though under normal in a normal climate or normal climate.
Christine Schiefer: But like in a normal news cycle, that would've been front page news. But because of World War II, um, it just didn't even make the front page. And so what happened in that case, which wasn't widely known at the time, but of course we know now, is that an intruder had broken into Josie's home, wrapped a skirt around her face and neck, and stabbed her multiple times in the neck.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And, and, and sort of hid her face with this skirt. And even weirder is that her wounds had actually been taped shut with like mechanical tape.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Like somebody was trying to like, fix them. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Or like hold in the bleeding or something like, or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's, it's really disturbing. Um, so yeah, like as if somebody was trying to stop the bleeding or felt remorseful in like an out of touch way, you know, it's unclear, but, um, it was obviously very disturbing. And investigators pursued Josie's fiance and several ex-boyfriends, but all of them had solid alibis. So in the end they thought, oh, well, it was probably just a burglar who was surprised by Josie, uh, having assumed nobody was home and attacked her randomly. Um, which didn't quite match just because of like, the specificity of like putting that like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: All the very specific parts of it don't really add up to me...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: If I surprised that someone was there, it would be really hard for me to, like, my first thought would not be... First of all, if I was gonna kill somebody, I don't really know what my first move would be, but I don't think take a skirt and put it over their head and then mechanical bandage them. Yeah. No, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. That part, it doesn't really add up to me. Um, so that was just kind of the only thing they had to lean on was like, I guess it was a burglary gone wrong. Um, but on top of that, nothing had been stolen. So again, it just seemed unreasonable. And what they did find, uh, was a bit of dark hair clenched in Josie's hand and, uh...
Em Schulz: Oh, good for her. Good girl.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. But of course, this is well before DNA analysis, so at the time it really didn't mean much of, of anything. Um, and so the investigation hit a dead end and they just thought, we'll never solve this. But six months later, things had totally shifted. Um, the climate had changed. World War II was over, soldiers were coming home, things were looking up financially. I mean, we're heading into that like nine, which is one of my most fascinating, like deep dives. Just the, the kind of like pleasantville-esque nature of the '50s where it was like everybody's home and don't think about anything that happened 10 years ago. Like, look at my casserole... All that shit.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Half, half of the population, shell shocked. But let's keep co... Let's keep coasting.
Christine Schiefer: But let's keep taking Valium 'cause we can't function. I just find that whole time in American history very interesting. But anyway, so the media of course, were like, all right, let's move on from this war, this depression, let's find some new news to talk about. So in 1945, on December 11th, when 32-year-old Francis Brown was found murdered in her home, uh, the news outlets were like, all right, we got a, a big story here. And, uh, she had been killed the day before on December 10th, and her head had been wrapped up in towels, much like Josie's had been wrapped in a skirt.
Em Schulz: Ah-ha.
Christine Schiefer: And she had also been stabbed in the neck just like Josie had been. And there was a bullet wound in her head. And like in Josie's case, nothing had been stolen. So odd.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, a little too similar to Josie's case to discount. Uh, they also found a bloody fingerprint smudge on the door jam of the apartment. But what really attracted the media was a message that the killer had left at the scene of the crime. And this message, ooh I already have goosecam. Okay, we'll post it. It's actually one of our first Instagram posts that we ever posted on, And That's Why We Drink in like 2017.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh, uh, it's written in lipstick across a wall, and the words read "for heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more I cannot control myself."
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh, chilling. Also like... In lipstick. Okay. I was wondering when the lipstick would come into play, but that's... Woo. Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna send you a, I'm gonna send you a picture of it because I think you might recognize it. I feel like this is the thing that I showed you way back when, um, and then I posted it on Instagram back in 2017. Uh, but it's like really disturbing to look at. Um, and we'll post this as well on Instagram post.
Em Schulz: Oh. I immediately recognize it.
Christine Schiefer: Right? Ugh.
Em Schulz: Oof. And the handwriting is...
Christine Schiefer: It is so eerie.
Em Schulz: Particularly chilling. I don't know what it is about the handwriting, but it's like kind of chicken scratch, but like, some of it's in cursive, but like, some of it looks like a five-year-old drew it, and it just it, it looks almost like...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: I know this isn't the case because someone's like, at the same time begging to be found. But it seems like almost Zodiac Killer writing. It seems like, like an intentional writing to not be caught.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I think what like really gives me the heebie-jeebies about it. Like what you said is that the letters are all kind of different. It's almost like ransom letters where it's like...
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Some are lowercase, some are uppercase. Uh ugh, it gives me the creeps. It like they're all kind, it looks like somebody was like learning to write each letter almost. It's like each one is very...
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. A-A-And even the L is like kind of a loop, but it's just odd.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: It's very odd, very chilling, very unsettling. Um, and so they found that across the wall of this murder scene. And of course, the papers jumped all over this. Um, and they dubbed the culprit, the Lipstick Killer because again, this message had been written in lipstick. And this sent Chicago into a frenzy because this killer who had written this message had promised he would kill again. So now they're like, shit, he's out there somewhere, you know...
Em Schulz: Tick Tock.
Christine Schiefer: Tick Tock uh, he's coming for us. So women who lived alone, of course, felt this deep seated fear that they could be next, especially because the first two attacks had seen, seemed pretty random. Umm, and then weeks later on January 7th, of 1946, this is very sad. Umm, just a warning. Of course, it's sad, it's all sad. But James Degnan, um, entered his 6-year-old daughter's bedroom at about 7:30 AM uh, for, for to get her up for school and discovered she was missing.
Em Schulz: Oh, God.
Christine Schiefer: And James and his family lived in a pretty affluent neighborhood. And so police were very quick to respond and like, you know, come out full force to search for, uh, 6-year-old Suzanne. And what they found, which they didn't notice at first, 'cause they, it just, they just kind of like skipped over it. But when they looked closer, there was a wrinkled crumpled up note in Suzanne's bedroom. And this note demanded a ransom for Suzanne's safe return. And the note advised James, uh, Suzanne's father not to involve the police or FBI, and, uh, instructed him instead to send $20,000, uh, in exchange for Suzanne in five and $10 bills, and then burn the note for Suzanne's safety. So burning the note, uh, and thank God didn't happen because when they took a closer look, they found a fingerprint on this piece of paper.
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And fingerprints were something we were paying attention to.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. We had that figured out. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: By this time. By the by the '50s, yeah. We knew about fingerprints. Umm or the '40s yeah.
Em Schulz: I just never know. I always get my fucking hopes up. And then...
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know.
Em Schulz: I forget, that DNA wasn't like universally discovered thing or a, you know what I mean?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's a fair question. Yeah, yeah I do. Umm, so whether the abductor ever actually intended to return Suzanne or if he was just like punishing James for involving the authorities when he said not to, it's unclear. But either way, Suzanne was tragically found dead roughly 12 hours after being reported missing, and it's really gruesome and really horrible. Uh, the killer had dismembered her remains, umm...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And moved them to different parts of town. Uh, the first piece of her that was discovered was her head...
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: Uh, it's just so fucking horrible. Umm, an anonymous tipster spotted the remains in a sewer near the Degnan's home. And her right and left legs were found in three separate drainage sites like catch basins and storm drains. And her torso and arms were eventually discovered in other drains and sewers. Umm, so this is just an incredibly horrifically dark and twisted person, umm, who did this.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: And so eventually investigators, uh, searching the neighborhood, discovered the basement where Suzanne had been dismembered. Like they were able to say, this is where it happened, but evidence suggested...
Em Schulz: Huh?.
Christine Schiefer: That she had been killed elsewhere in a location that they just could not find. So they knew the like basement area where this had happened. Umm, Chicago erupted over this monstrous crime, as you can imagine. Umm, and police didn't quite make a connection yet between this murder and the Lipstick Killer murders because they were nothing uh alike at all. Josie and Francis were both adult women. They were alone at home. They were killed in similar ways.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: They had their faces covered as though like remorseful. Umm, the murderer didn't take anything, didn't leave a ransom note. And meanwhile, Suzanne was abducted from her bedroom while her family was home. Uh, and they, they actually found a ladder outside in the backyard...
Em Schulz: Woah.
Christine Schiefer: That had been used to reach her bedroom, which is, I mean, talk about like a fear, like a childhood fear that somebody could like get up to your window. It's just fucking terrifying. Umm, so the killer was after money, which was not the case in the other two murders, and the dismemberment was completely different as well. Like, so it just didn't really match up, umm.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like he's experimenting with new tactics or something.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or it's a totally different person, just saying.
Em Schulz: Mm, mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, so the coroner's expert declared that Suzanne's body had been dismembered with terrifying precision. So I just say that because...
Em Schulz: Like a surgeon.
Christine Schiefer: Yep. Because you had mentioned, umm, like experimenting and it sort of didn't come off that way. It was like, no, no, this person knew what they were doing. They weren't like trying things or messing around. Like they had very, very carefully done this and had planned to do this. Um, and so the coroner's expert basically believed the killer had a background in anatomical studies, dissections, perhaps butchering, umm, and according to him, not even the average doctor would know, like would be able to pull this off because... I guess there is, umm, this is disturbing. Like all of it's disturbing, but, uh, obviously, but, uh, it's just particularly one of my issues. But, uh, there is apparently one spot you can dissect a torso or like separate a torso from the bod... From the legs, I think without cutting through bone. Like there's just one very specific part of your spine, and that is where she had been dismembered.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So whoever did this knew how to do it in like the most efficient way. Uh, it's just something, not a normal everyday doctor would know.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: It's something either a surgeon or somebody with like very precise knowledge would know. So at first, um, they were desperate for a lead, so they arrested this guy, 65-year-old Hector Verbur, Verburgh, and he was a custodian in the Degnan's building who also worked in the building where Suzanne was dismembered. And to clarify, when they found the basement where she had been dismembered, this was an apartment building, so it wasn't like a one, one specific family's basement that they could point to...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Who lived there. It was like a, a general, a lot of people lived in this building and this guy happened to be a custodian in the Degnan's building and in the building where they found this dismemberment site. And, uh, because he was the custodian, he frequently went into the basement and, uh, it seemed like a suspicious coincidence, but it really wasn't. Um, he, it made sense that he was a custodian in multiple buildings in the same neighborhood. Like he was hired to be a custodian. It wasn't that unusual that he, uh, was in both buildings, like he had a connection to both buildings, but the police really wanted Hector.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Without it being fishy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. And so police were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's so weird. And so they arrested him and they demanded that he confess, um, they even put pressure on his wife to make some admission proving Hector's guilt. But she was like, he didn't do anything and he was instead subjected to a 48 hour interrogation. He was physically tortured and psychologically tortured, mentally tortured. They denied him food. They blindfolded him. They beat him.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: They hung him from the ceiling by his arms. Yeah.
Em Schulz: [gasp] Oh my God that's medieval.
Christine Schiefer: Which dislocated his shoulder. Yeah. I mean it, right? It is. It feels very, very arcane. Not...
Em Schulz: And what year was this?
Christine Schiefer: Archaic, I mean, um, 1946 I believe.
Em Schulz: Yeah. That, un uncalled for unheard of, like unnecessary.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean...
Em Schulz: All the way through.
Christine Schiefer: Unnecessary for sure. Definitely uncalled for, definitely not unheard of unfortunately. Um, [laughter], but definitely uncalled for. And they dislocated his shoulder and after he was released, Hector stated anymore, and I would have confessed to anything, but he held up.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: He, he, he held onto his innocence this whole time, and apparently after he got out of the police station, he went straight to the hospital and, uh, he and his wife ended up moving away. I mean, imagine how traumatizing that is. Like, they're like, okay, you can go. And you've just, you had your whole...
Em Schulz: I can't, I can't imagine, I don't know how, how society didn't crumble. Just, just as with the mindset of like, if I beat someone into saying whatever I want them to say they must be guilty. Like how did we, how did we survive as a species with that poor ass thinking is wild.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, I think it's just...
Em Schulz: I mean this is not the first time, obviously, but...
Christine Schiefer: Let the people who were in charge keep doing it, keep being in charge because they were like, oh, you're a witch. Sorry. You can't, you can't be, you can't live anymore. So I'm just gonna kill you.
Em Schulz: It's, it's just, it just just boggles the mind of someone who never...
Christine Schiefer: I, I think it's just why society...
Em Schulz: As someone who never had to like, we're just, it's moments like this from like, I'm so lucky that I was born not in that time.
Christine Schiefer: Me too.
Em Schulz: Like, but it's...
Christine Schiefer: Oh God.
Em Schulz: It's just, yikes. I just, it's just so hard to wrap my head around...
Christine Schiefer: It's just feels very...
Em Schulz: How that was a working system.
Christine Schiefer: I agree. Yeah. It feels very hopeless, you know, and I mean, this kind of thing still happens, so it's not even like we're that far off from it. Um.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But yeah, so the Hector and his wife sued the police department and they won. Um, and the police was stuck with his hospital bill, which I think was like $18,000 or something Um, it was a lot of money...
Em Schulz: Good.
Christine Schiefer: But yeah. But Hector still suffered the emotional turmoil of course, and the trauma of this. And now a social stigma of like everybody staring at him, like, are you the fucking guy who killed that little girl? Um.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: And he felt like the accusation cast such a shadow over him and his reputation that he and his wife had to leave town. They couldn't live there anymore. Um, and so now investigators have done fucked up and they're back at square one and they decide to pursue another trail.
Christine Schiefer: And near the Degnan's home, they had discovered some blonde hairs and a wire that they thought had maybe been used to strangle Suzanne. And near those items, they had also found a handkerchief, which was monogrammed and like embroidered with the name S. Sherman.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: So police found records that a recently discharged marine named Sidney Sherman was living at a YMCA in Chicago. And so they went and found him. And when they arrived to question him, he had abandoned his living space without notifying anyone and had even left his job without collecting his final paycheck. So...
Em Schulz: Shady!
Christine Schiefer: It seemed a little bit like, yes. Like maybe he was on the run. Um, an extensive manhunt ensued and they located Sidney several days later in good old Toledo, Ohio, uh, where he had eloped with his girlfriend. And when they found him, they were like, Hey, we got your handkerchief. And he was like, that's not mine. And they said, yes it is. And he said, no, it's not. And [laughter] he passed a polygraph test. So there really wasn't anything they could do about it. Um, you know, we know a polygraph is not admissible evidence, but they didn't even have that to go off of to like pressure him. So they basically had to let him go.
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, and turns out it was not his handkerchief. [laughter] So after all this...
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: It wasn't even his handkerchief. Uh, they actually eventually found the real owner of the handkerchief, a guy named Seymour Sherman. Uh. Not Sidney Sherman.
Em Schulz: Oh okay.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So Seymour was like, oh yeah, that's my handkerchief. And he cooperated with the police and he was able to prove that he wasn't even in the country when Suzanne was killed. So we don't know how...
Em Schulz: Oh, okay. Well, he had nothing to worry about.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he was fine. Um. He didn't have to hide in Toledo or anything, uh but his handkerchief, nobody knows how it ended up in Suzanne's neighborhood. Um. Even to him, like he still couldn't say how that ended up where it was. He's like, I have no idea.
Em Schulz: Wild. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: But his alibi was airtight, so now they're at, at another dead end. And at this point police announced several times to the public that they had captured Suzanne's murderer. And so people are thinking like, oh, it's Hector. They've caught him. Not Hector. Oh, it's a Sidney Sherman. They caught him. Nope, not him. Oh, it's Seymour Sherman. Nope, not him. So they're basically like running against a ticking clock and the public is getting pissed off. 'cause they're like, you are, you keep telling us you got the person who did this, and then...
Em Schulz: Right. Figure it out.
Christine Schiefer: You let them go. Yeah. Figure it out. So the killer or killers were still at large. And of course the media is now starting to turn on the police and saying like, Hey, you're not handling, they're not handling this right. They're not getting any answers. And this pressure was mounting. And uh now we cut back to good old William Heirens, AKA Bill. We're now looking at him in late June of 1946. He's doing pretty well for himself. Um. He's enjoying the summer between his freshman and sophomore years at University of Chicago. He's still doing his little hobby of petty thievery. And uh he had actually stolen enough money over, over this time to purchase $1000 in saving, savings bonds. So he's like stealing. But then he's like using it to try and you know I don't know.
Em Schulz: It's like, it's like a weird self robin hood situation.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes. A yeah, like Les Mis, I mean, come on folks. Okay. So [laughter], am I wrong? Maybe. Probably. [laughter] Uh so... So stupid. Oh, again, I've never seen it. Um. So Bill was scheduled to go on a date with a girl he really liked. So he headed to the post office to cash the bonds to get some money to take her on a date. And uh he took a revolver with him, apparently for protection because he planned to walk home with a $1000 cash in his pocket. And today that's about 16 grand. So he's like, I'm walking home with 16 grand in cash. I'm bringing my gun. But, uh, the post office was closed. So Bill, oh, Billy, Billy, Billy decided to steal some cash for his date on his way home.
Em Schulz: Class act.
Christine Schiefer: Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.
Em Schulz: You know what he was determined to go on that date. He said she's gonna have a good time.
Christine Schiefer: He wanted it to be nice. Yeah, he wanted candles.
Em Schulz: Allison why don't you steal 16 grand for a date with me. I'm confused. Wait a minute.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, maybe she does and she's just better at it, you know. Maybe she's, maybe she's just like me and my drawers you know. My drawers, I meant my drawer. Nevermind. Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Unassumed yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Nobody knows. My secrets, until...
Em Schulz: Just like Les Mis.
Christine Schiefer: Just like Les Mis! You get it. Finally, finally you get it. [laughter] Ahh, so he decides, oh, well my cashing this at the post office isn't gonna work, so I guess I'll just steal some. And unfortunately, as we probably saw coming, he was spotted mid burglary, chased down by police officers and cornered. And panicked. He pulled out his revolver and there's a disagreement on who fired first. Of course, the police say that Bill pulled the trigger, but the gun misfired and then police opened fire, Bill denied ever attempting to fire the weapon. I'm not sure I trust, um these particular cops at this point after having tortured someone into c... You know confessing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So I'm gonna say I'm not so sure about their version of events. But either way, he was brandishing a weapon and an off-duty police officer in swim trunks because he had spent the day with his family at Lake Michigan and was just like off the clock, but happened to be there. Uh. He overheard the situation, he intervened and he smashed three flower pots over Bill's head.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Like fucking Looney Tune style. Acme. They must have said Acme on it, you know like he might as well...
Em Schulz: All he needed was a piano or something.
Christine Schiefer: An anvil, right?
Em Schulz: Just like Les Mis.
Christine Schiefer: Like a piano. Yeah, just like, Les Mis. Yes, exactly. It's the same thing. And so he smashed three flower pots over bill's head over and over until Bill fell unconscious.
Em Schulz: Wow.
Christine Schiefer: And he was arrested in the Degnan's neighborhood. Like this burglary occurred near Suzanne's house where she had been abducted and then murdered and dismembered. And so the kind of closeness, the proximity of this arrest kind of struck the police and this connection to the crime basically would seal Bill's fate. Um, he ended up being taken in as Suzanne's murderer, but things of course were not then and still are not as black and white as investigators would ultimately try to make them. And the case to this day is extremely controversial, but we'll get to that in part two.
Em Schulz: Oh, Christine, [laughter] just like Les Mis, I really...
Christine Schiefer: Just like Les Mis ending on a cliffhanger. It's just how I do it.
Em Schulz: You keep me wanting more. You keep me wanting more.
Christine Schiefer: That's right. That's right. That's my inspiration.
Em Schulz: Wow. What a good one, Christine oh.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that crazy?
Em Schulz: I'm glad we're finally into talking about it. And even as if I have been on the edge of my seat for seven years or one dog year.
Christine Schiefer: You're just being nice. I know you've been waiting a whole seven dog years for me to do this, [laughter] and you're just trying to let me off the hook, but I know you've been waiting. So here it is.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Well, I hope everyone had a good 3-6-5 uh... We did.
Christine Schiefer: I did.
Em Schulz: I know I did. Um, then I, I...
Christine Schiefer: That's all that matters.
Em Schulz: Man when, and I'm not even gonna get to record with you for so long, so like.
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: I was just gonna... We're gonna have to do a recap for our next episode. 'cause I, I'm not gonna remember anything.
Christine Schiefer: That's true. I didn't time, I didn't time that quite well. I mean, the plan was to do Friday then Monday, Tuesday. So I had...
Em Schulz: No, I get it.
Christine Schiefer: Planned to do them day... Yeah. But unfortunately that... You know.
Em Schulz: Things happen, just like Les Mis.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]
Em Schulz: So I [laughter] I can't wait to text you every non Les Mis reference for the rest of my, my life.
Christine Schiefer: I was, I'm gonna say like, I, I won't even get the real references. Like that's how bad, that's how much I don't know about... [laughter] Like I know that they steal bread to feed their family. That's the end of what I know about that show, or musical, I don't know.
Em Schulz: I could literally go, I could literally go walk down the street in my neighborhood and find Hugh Jackman and send you a picture and be like, just like Les Mis and you won't even understand that like, they're, like.
Christine Schiefer: I literally don't, I don't know what that means.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: So I, yeah, I'm already, I'm already not understanding. Um.
Em Schulz: He's in Les Mis.
Christine Schiefer: And I feel like every... I mean obviously I sort of could deduce that, but like if you just sent me a picture, I'd be like, who's that guy? Isn't that the guy that's familiar from the movies.
Em Schulz: Isn't that Jude Law?
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that Jude Law? But he was also in Les Mis, so I feel like that's a little bit misleading, um. I... [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay, well.
Christine Schiefer: I have a headache. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. I, I wish I was taking a weed gummy. I feel like I'm taking a weed gummy every time I just listen to your voice.
Christine Schiefer: Uh that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.
Em Schulz: Uh. Speaking of which, um I was telling Jordan I, we'll just end on a Jordan thing. Um I did give her the compliment yesterday of telling her she has queer energy and uh,
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: It, it seems to make her day. So I'm, uh if you...
Christine Schiefer: That's nice.
Em Schulz: Meet someone and they give you a nice queer vibe, maybe tell 'em, maybe make their day and if they have a problem with it, then that's you know, already, like that was actually a test and red flag.
Christine Schiefer: Then you have a problem with them. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Exactly. Yeah, just like in Les Mis. So anyway uh...
Christine Schiefer: I knew you were gonna go there. I was like, say it, say it.
Em Schulz: Well thank you everybody and we are still on tour. Please come see us and come to our shows and make our moms very proud and uh...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.