E373 The Thirsty Little Rat Inn and the Coowoo Girls
TOPICS: LONGFELLOW’S WAYSIDE INN, ANTHONY BROADWATER AND ALICE SEBOLD
Longfellow’s Wayside Inn
Anthony Broadwater - photo credit: Benjamin Cleeton for The New York Times
Alice Sebold
Zak Bagans with a rose.
It's episode 373 and our other car is a hoop and stick! Who else is feeling the butterflies of putting a new project out into the universe? Christine and her Etsy shop can relate (link below). This week Em takes us to Sudbury, Massachusetts (where we may or may not be currently driving through) to bring us the haunted tales of the Longfellow's Wayside Inn. Then Christine covers the wildly divisive and heartbreaking case of Anthony Broadwater and Alice Sebold. And don't forget to moisturize from the inside out... and that's why we drink!
Check out Christine's Etsy store and treat yourself to that hoop and stick bumper sticker you've always wanted! thextinefiles.etsy.com
Transcript
[intro music]
Em: Do I look... Do I look grainy today?
Christine: You look umm like your inside of a mystical shop.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: It's a good thing. I think. To me.
Em: Thank you.
Christine: Wow.
Em: Man, I'm just a dummy when it comes to cameras, but as long as you can see me, that's all that matters, as long as my pretty face is in front of those pretty eyes Christine, we got no problems.
Christine: If I didn't see you, I'd be having some sort of a mental break, so...
Em: Ahhh.
Christine: I could see bright and clear...
Em: Okay, good enough at the very least to be moved is what you're saying.
Christine: I'm thoroughly moved.
Em: You know what moves me is the fact that after all these years, Christine, you're still wearing my shirt.
Christine: Okay, so I was gonna show you, okay, the weather is very weird here today, you know that my favorite weather, that feeling where it's warm out, it's spring, but then the thunder starts rumbling, it's like sunny and now... Oh my gosh.
Em: The onset of doom. Is that what you mean?
Christine: Oh it's so exciting. Yes, it's the calm before the storm, and so I was like, I'm gonna get cozy, put on my favorite shirt, that's Em's shirt actually, and here it is my Boston University shirt, that's actually Em's Boston University shirt. There's... Now, I just noticed today...
Em: Wow, you have worn her up good. Okay.
Christine: I'm telling you... Oh, but my shoulder Em, look.
Em: That's I feel...
Christine: Wait a minute. Did you cut the... I know, I know now why were carrying scissors around.
Em: I may have nibbled or something. I don't know.
Christine: You said you needed scissors and I said, that's weird, but come in to my hotel room and you said...
Em: I said don't worry about it. I got teeth. All 32 of them.
[laughter]
Christine: Gross. You bit a hole in my shirt. Yeah. Anyway, for those of you not lucky enough to see both of us on camera today, uhh the shirt that Em gave me years ago of our alma mater, apparently as of the last wash, developed a giant hole in the shoulder, and I feel I'm sad 'cause it's my, I wear it all all the time.
Em: All the time.
Christine: All the time, and I don't know what to do, I guess I should stop wearing it and make it a little t-shirt quilt or something, but I love wearing it, so it's like the epic conundrum.
Em: I know. I know what you mean.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: By the way, how perfect because I know I already told you this, but this week marks 10 years...
Christine: Jesus Christ...
Em: What?
Christine: Sorry. Lightning just hit a tree, literally right outside.
Em: This is what you wanted girl. Like literally you are already...
Christine: It is. My heart is soaring, I'm in a high stress moment, you didn't hear that?
Em: No.
Christine: So it happened where there was this huge flash and the flash was so big, it scared Junie off the bench, and I was like, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes. It was way louder than I expected.
Em: I love it. I'm very jealous.
Christine: I hope everyone can hear that.
Em: I would give anything for a clap of thunder.
Christine: It felt like very ominous and exciting.
Em: If we're ever both recording mid-storm, maybe we should bring our equipment outside, obviously wrapped in like plastic bags, but just for the ambiance, the rolling thunder sounds behind us.
Christine: I would love that or we could open a window like a normal person would rather than carry the equipment...
Em: We can have a sound effect like normal person...
Christine: Into the rain.
[laughter]
Christine: Or that.
[laughter]
Em: I was gonna say, this is the 10-year anniversary of me getting into Boston University, which means it's the 10-year anniversary of you getting into Boston University...
Christine: [gasp]
Em: Which means it's the 10-year anniversary of us becoming twinkles in our eye.
Christine: I feel like this is the 10-year anniversary of our spirit guides going, goddammit, we've been trying to push these two morons together.
Em: When will they kiss?!
[laughter]
Christine: I know. I know. When will they? They're still wondering.
Em: Any day. Any day.
Christine: Any day now. We trade each others clothes, or at least I do, I take your clothes. That should count for something.
Em: Yeah, no, we're definitely in the right direction. Cupid is getting the itch scratched.
Christine: Ew.
[laughter]
Em: Oh man. Why do you drink?
Christine: I've done something.
Em: Ugh.
Christine: I have decided... So Em was talking to me when this happened, I just came up with this idea very suddenly and out of nowhere to create a bumper sticker that says, my other car is a hoop and stick, and I have a picture right here, and so I designed it while I was texting with Em and...
Em: It's brilliant.
Christine: Then 48 hours later, I sent Em a picture 'cause I had ordered 100 of them on the internet.
Em: Oh, you didn't say that part.
[laughter]
Christine: And so what I've done is in the free time that I don't have, I have completely re-branded my Etsy shop, and umm this is the first time I'm ever telling anyone about it, so Em, I'll show it to you, it's called... Let's see. What's the link? Etsy.com/shop/ here I'll just send it to you. Oh, thextinefiles.etsy.com And I have a bunch of bumper stickers up there that I designed yesterday, and I'm gonna donate 30% of any of the sales if I make any sales to charity, and they will change every month. Umm, right now, this is just like an outlet 'cause I love to craft. Umm, right now, let me see. Where are they? Did you get the link?
Em: I sure did. You know the fact that every day we're like, what can we get Patreon? You're like, I don't know, as you make bumper stickers and...
Christine: Okay, well, I can't just mail thousands of them, unfortunately. I wish I could.
Em: I know. That's fair.
Christine: Make them from Patreon but I have literally 100 of only one of the designs, so they are all pre-orders and I figured I just order as many as people, like if five people order them, I'll order five of them and send them, but it's mostly... I would like to donate most of the proceeds to charity. This month, I picked Palestine Children's Relief Fund, 'cause it seemed very timely, and I don't know how...
Em: Sure does.
Christine: I was making some Fall Out Boy keychains too that are in the draft, so I don't know if I'm gonna post those either. But I don't know, I've done Etsy shop since I was 13, and I feel like I'm always messing with it, and this time I thought I'd actually talk about it. So let me know what you think, folks, but it's thextinefiles.etsy.com question mark, I don't know. We'll put in the show notes I guess.
Em: Here's what I think.
Christine: Where's your tab? Hold on. Let me find you.
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: Come back!
Em: Well, now let's play a game called Beach Too Sandy, Water Too Wet. Where I read your reviews. Okay.
Christine: Oh no, don't read my reviews. It's so embarrassing. I got like...
Em: Why would you give me this window, this big wide open window.
Christine: I don't know. I think I got a bad review at one point.
Em: Did you because... You have a 4.8, which I guess that means...
Christine: Yeah, one of them wasn't nice.
Em: Uh-oh.
Christine: It wasn't that nice. I think I just screwed up what I was doing, I think I was a little too over-eager with my SVG files I was selling, and I don't think I really quite knew how to do it the right way.
Em: It's from Kelly Haskins, and it's a four star review and there is no comment.
Christine: [gasp] Okay, Kelly, that's fine.
Em: So you didn't bother Kelly that much.
Christine: Okay, that's good. I'll take it, I'll take it.
Em: I like to think that it was a slip of the thumb.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or she thought let's just put her in her place a little bit.
Em: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Christine: And that's fine. I get it.
Em: By most, I mean all are very excited about your product. So...
Christine: Well, these are all from when I sold other products, so now we'll see, because these are brand new, I just put them up today, so these stickers and I've not posted it anywhere. So we'll see if anybody even buys it.
Em: I am, I'm scared of the damage you could do because all it's gonna take is one weird attitude change of you and you wanna roast me publicly in some way. I could see a bumper sticker all of a sudden showing up that makes a lot of money about... I don't know, I feel like you could do something really dangerous.
Christine: Em, it's definitely a great idea, I would say, and I would say it's really thinking outside the box.
Em: I'm not trying to plant the seed, what's happening is, fear is building inside of me, once I know you have a power that I can't control... And...
Christine: Okay, to be fair, the power was with you when I made my other cars a hoop and stick, and so that was...
Em: That was a joint decision, but it was...
Christine: That was as far as the process goes.
Em: That was a joint decision. And then five minutes later, Christine was done. And I went, wait a minute, I was saying hypothetically, and Christine went...
Christine: I know.
Em: Nope, it's here.
Christine: I have no, like I cannot keep it. I know I cannot have no control. So I'm sorry that I did this, this is why I drink, 'cause I know, I guarantee this is gonna come out, and I probably have already forgotten about this Etsy store. And I'm gonna go... Oh no, now, I have to mail out 500 bumper stickers. I don't think there will be 500 sold there that... This is why I've only ordered 100 total of all of them, and I put little limits on them, so if they sell, that would be great if not, don't worry about it. I'm actually toying around with maybe just giving all the proceeds to charity, I don't really need a side hustle right now, I'm like, okay. Umm, so we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. But anyway, I just, I'm toying with it, and so it's making me anxious 'cause I'm like, you know what, I did a meditation and I said to my spirit guides, what should I do? What should my next step be? And the message I received Em was to just...
Em: Hoop and stick.
Christine: Hoop and stick.
Em: Bumper sticker.
Christine: How did you know?
Em: I heard them.
Christine: They even gave me the font and everything. They said, share with... Share your creativity. So I thought, okay, fine, I'll stop doing it just behind my own computer in the dark in the middle of the night on weed gummies and I will actually share them with the world, so I don't know. Maybe people will be like, these are ugly, but we'll see.
Em: Well, good luck to you because I have a feeling you're gonna get a nice reminder of why we stopped selling, uh, Patreon t-shirts.
Christine: I know, that's why this is...
Em: I don't think you know what you've done...
Christine: But quantities are extremely limited. Okay?
Em: Yeah. That means it's definitely gonna sell all 100. Just stamp the envelope now.
Christine: They all say say pre-order, 'cause I was like, I don't wanna say two-day shipping and then be on tour and be like, wait, what? [laughter]
Em: The second people here that there are only a hundred of a very limited edition hoop and stick bumper stickers...
Christine: I can't...
Em: Are you hear... Are you listening what's happening.
Christine: I don't know though, because part of me is like I feel so delusional, I'm out of touch with reality. I don't know. Anyway.
Em: I am very proud of you. I'm not trying to pooh-pooh...
Christine: Thank you.
Em: I'm just also trying to warn you of the reality you've caused.
Christine: I appreciate it, and I really am in a kind of a frantic headspace, remember that during our after hours, we've read our horoscope and it said creative... It's a great day to pursue a creative passion that you've been thinking about and you were like, does that apply to you? And I was like, yeah, I think so. And then afterwards, without even thinking about it, I was like, oh, I should work on my Etsy shop, and so I guess the horoscope was correct.
Em: Well, the irony is that one of your bumper sticker says, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions, and I think I'm just going to buy that and then you don't have to ship it to me, it's gonna be a gift to you after this...
Christine: You're gonna... When you take your scissors to my hotel room, you're gonna cut holes in my stuff and then stick the stickers over them just to really seal the deal.
Em: I'll actually take the rest of that shirt and the rest of my teeth, and I'll nibble it out like random letters.
Christine: Your teeth!
Em: And I'll just spell out the consequences of your actions.
Christine: You know what, you're right. That should be the image I put above my mirror to really remind myself of what I've done, so I'm gonna drink Em by the way, I'm gonna drink this wild cherry THC seltzer, it's a delta-9, delta-8? I don't know. Seltzer. Why do you drink this week Em? 'Cause I did this 'cause I did this stupid thing.
Em: Oh no, that's just... I get just to watch that, like a sport now.
Christine: I haven't even told Blaise. He's going to be like what is going on? Why are you mailing 600 things? And by 600, I mean...
Em: Is it 2017?
Christine: Yeah, yeah. Have you back slid...
Em: Just for good measure, throw a clown nose into every envelope.
Christine: Oh we did, used to do that, guys, that was so cute.
Em: The real ones know.
Christine: The real ones know.
Em: Why I drink? I don't totally know. I think I'm experiencing a pre-burnout because I'm about to be on the road for so long. This is my big, big leg. Because I'm gonna be on the East Coast, I'm gonna stick around. I'm aware that I'm not gonna be home for a while, so I'm already kind of getting the jitters about that.
Christine: So when do you... Oh, this is the conversation, I guess, off air, but you're gonna be gone for... Do you know how long or not really? Just like a while.
Em: Umm. Let me see.
Christine: You don't have to tell me right now. I'm just curious.
Em: No, I don't care. I just don't know. Umm. I'm gonna be gone. I guess we've got another week before I even have to really worry about it, but two and a half weeks, I guess it means you have to record in advance. I also haven't got any tickets yet, so, uh.
Christine: Okay, I was like, you just... You let Katie know, 'cause I'll be there, I'll be wherever you need me to be.
Em: Also, I'm realizing I'm not actually like against... Because I was thinking about it to myself, and I was like, if I really wanna commit to traveling but not make it inconvenient to anybody else, like how hard would it be to pack up recording equipment and just record wherever I am...
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And I was like, it's actually not that, I could totally do it.
Christine: I mean you were about to take it out into a thunderstorm, so I think you could probably figure it out. You know what I mean?
Em: But if we ever do end up in a situation where I would like to... 'Cause I really like that I have recording stuff at my mom's house and I was like, it's not that much equipment, I could bring it. Like it's fine.
Christine: Yeah, you can just pack an extra little duffel with it.
Em: Remember when we used to record in hotel rooms, but it was just umm...
Christine: Oh my God. We were on tour.
Em: It was just though the computer and the audio was terrible.
Christine: And the episode was due the next, that night at midnight and we forgot. And poor Eva was like, please, please. And then you would go, I would go down the hallway into a different room and we would just Zoom or whatever and record. God, what is wrong with us...
Em: Well, speaking of you and your creativity, not that this is, this is not something I've fully settled on, but I am aware that I do a lot of traveling, and I'm aware that quite a lot of people... Enough people for me to notice ask for itineraries I do and places I go, and it already kind of fits in with our haunted road atlas, but it's just like an extended version of it.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But I've been thinking about traveling more and then doing something with that, I don't know if that's...
Christine: Oh yeah, love that idea. A blog?
Em: I don't know what it is. A vlog or just a review...
Christine: Oh I said a blog.
Em: After the fact.
Christine: I think a vlog would be legit. I was joking about a blog, 'cause I feel that's kind of outdated, but a vlog, people would watch or TikToks. I would watch a TikTok where you run around and show us cool shit you find.
Em: That's true, that's true. Although TikTok is about to be banned LOL.
Christine: I know. Good times.
Em: But anyway, something is stirring in my head, so...
Christine: I love that for you.
Em: Yeah. Anyway, we'll see what happens. So I guess that's why I drink, but I feel stuck between... I don't know what the right word is, but it's like the fear of trying something new because I don't wanna commit all the way, but if I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna commit all the way, so I don't...
Christine: That's where I was at the stamp shop. And then that's why I said I'm just gonna blurt it out first thing, because if I don't, I'm never gonna hold myself to it. Now, the universe has to hold me to it, which is a terrifying thought, but...
Em: It's terrifying. Yeah, so I'm gonna watch you go through it first.
Christine: So I'm glad you're speaking it... Yeah, I'll go first, and then what I tell you, don't do it, you can decide what your next creative journey will be, but honestly, I like that you're saying it out loud too, 'cause it kind of cements it in reality, and we'll all start thinking about it and...
Em: It gives other people an opportunity to make a comment...
Christine: Yeah, chime in.
Em: Down below and...
Christine: Comment. Comment on my blogpost blogspot.com.
Em: Yeah, give me ideas on what it should be too. If it should be YouTube thing...
Christine: The medium.
Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 'Cause it all feels very overwhelming, but I know I like doing it and Allison and I were very lucky to have found people in our relationship where like she's incredibly independent, I'm incredibly independent...
Christine: Right.
Em: We have really not too much interest in constantly being near each other, and so like I love traveling domestically and Allison loves traveling internationally. Together, we'll take on the whole world.
Christine: Yeah, together, you'll map it all out together. Yeah. And then you'll met back in Burbank. [laughter]
Em: Right, but I know I'm lucky that I've got a partner who would be cool with me traveling more and I like doing it, and I love traveling alone, so that works out really well.
Christine: I also love traveling alone.
Em: It's so much fun.
Christine: It's like one of my favorite things.
Em: Anyway, I guess that's why I drink 'cause I don't really know, but I feel like there's something... There's a butterfly in the tummy telling me I gotta do something.
Christine: Yes. Okay. I love this because that's where my brain has been too. And I didn't know how to put it, but I like the butterfly. It feels like a fluttering.
Em: Yeah, yeah, she hasn't taken off yet, but she's testing the wings out, you know, before she does anything about it.
Christine: Yeah, she's testing the ground with her feet or whatever butterflies do.
Em: That she might be up to it. I don't think so, but she may be.
Christine: Maybe.
Em: Anything's possible. Umm before we get into anything, I don't know, you told me what you're drinking, I'm drinking an LD, this is where I tell everybody, your weekly reminder, drink some water you thirsty little rats.
Christine: I didn't bring mine this time, so I'll just keep drinking my...
Em: Sound like a rat.
Christine: THC seltzer.
Em: Drink something.
Christine: Mm-hmm
Em: Moisturize yourself from the inside. You know?
Christine: Ew. Okay, it's getting worse.
Em: Did you like that?
Christine: No. It's getting weird...
Em: Should I say it more?
Christine: It's getting weirder and worse somehow.
Em: We'll find a way to make it work.
Christine: How you do it, it's kind of incredible.
Em: So I don't know if you're ready for a story, but I got me a good one today.
Christine: I actually am. I'm very ready. Bring it on.
Em: It's almost as if you came here to hear a story.
Christine: Almost. Almost.
Em: And all of you listening as well. So, uh, this is just like last week, I felt like I was on a roll last week. I felt like that was a really good story. I feel like I did a lot... We did a lot of banter. It was a little goofy. I love when they're a little goofy. I got you another one where I stayed up even later than last time, just to make sure I got all the deets for ya.
Christine: Okay. And just for clarification, last time I was 4 AM, so now we've got an even later than that.
Em: This was a 5:30.
Christine: Woah, woah. Okay.
Em: Because it was so early, or because it was so late, it was actually so early, so I got to have a fun little treat afterwards, and I had McDonald's breakfast into me.
Christine: Oh, that's fun.
Em: And then I fell asleep with a bunch of carbs in my body. Oh, it was a good time.
Christine: On Beach Too Sandy, we talked about a squirrel who found a big McDonald hash brown in a trash can and just was so delightedly happy just eating that hash brown, that's how I'm picturing you right now.
Em: To be... Oh gosh, to be proportionally the size of a squirrel to a hash brown when it comes to my food.
Christine: The hash brown, size of your whole body.
Em: I'll never know that kind of joy, but I am really stoked for the squirrel.
Christine: Yeah, thank you. I was too, I'm glad you understand.
Em: Apparently, there's a word I am not of this space, but apparently it's used a lot in the poly community, and it's called compersion.
Christine: Mm! I've never heard of it.
Em: It is the opposite, I guess, poly people please scream at me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of it is that it's uh, the just general joy you get, it's like the opposite of the jealousy that you might feel in the relationship every now and then.
Christine: Oh so it's just not like schadenfreude. It's like anti-schadenfreude like instead of feeling happy about someone's sadness, you're happy about their happiness, sort of.
Em: Yes. It's like, so I feel compersion for that squirrel with the hash brown, 'cause I'm like...
Christine: Oh I love that. It's like oh it fills my heart that you're having such an enjoyable experience. I love that.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: That's a beautiful term.
Em: It's like, I don't even want to ruin your good time, I just know you're having the best time ever, and you deserve it, and...
Christine: Yeah, and it's not even like I'm envious of you, I'm just so happy for you. You know?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: It's like just live your life.
Em: Maybe I have so much compersion, I'm actually jealous of the hash brown and not you.
Christine: Oh God, that... Well, it's getting a little, getting a little far now 'cause now you've become a piece of trash being eaten.
Em: Okay, been there. But let's talk about this episode because umm I worked very hard on these notes I'm very proud of these notes. I think you're gonna have a good time.
Christine: Ah!
Em: I filled it with fun facts for you...
Christine: Ah!
Em: And there may be a video clip that I send your way halfway through.
Christine: Oh my Lord, okay, I'm ready.
Em: Buckle up my friends, because today we travel to Sudbury, Massachusetts, which is also where we might actually be traveling right now.
Christine: Yeah, that sounds familiar-ish.
Em: I also have a caveat, which I wrote at 5:00 AM in this episode... Take a shot... In this episode, if you take a shot every time I say the word inn, then you will die from alcohol poisoning.
Christine: Oh, what a fun PSA.
Em: So before you think, let's give it a whirl, I'm telling you now, what will happen.
Christine: Okay, good.
Em: This is the Longfellow's Wayside Inn.
Christine: Longfellow's Wayside Inn. Okay.
Em: You have heard about this. You just don't know it yet.
Christine: Sure.
Em: And um, I'll just get into it. This is in Sudbury, Massachusetts, it dates back to 1707. So again, it's one of those very old-ass buildings. The last one, last week was also very old for the US...
Christine: Yeah, so that was a King's Tavern, right? That was 17 something...
Em: Yeah. Weird that I'm doing two taverns in a row.
Christine: Yeah. I love it.
Em: Okay. Well, this one dates back even further than the last one, I think. Or at least around the same time, this dates back to 1707, this was the home of David Howe and his very pregnant wife at the time named Hepzibah.
Christine: Ohh.
Em: Wow. Do you know what the world is loving old names for babies right now, so maybe...
Christine: It's back. I bet you it's back...
Em: If someone is out there, they were struggling for an old name as a baby name, Hepzibah just might be the one for you.
Christine: Might be, might not be, but it might be.
Em: Some deserve to stay in the past, I think maybe. [laughter] So David Howe, his wife Hepzibah, I hope I'm saying that right. And they would later go on to have seven kids in this house, but she was pregnant, I think, with her first.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Fun fact, again, just like how we mentioned last time, that taverns, back in the 1700s, they would spell horse without an E.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Well, David, his last name, Howe started out without an E, but by 1716, there was an E at the end of his name.
Christine: So weird. Okay.
Em: I guess between 1707 and 1716 is when everyone's just throwing an extra E on the words.
Christine: Sure, why not?
Em: He adds an E to his last name. He builds on to his personal house that he has moved into, and he gets a license to run a house of entertainment. House of entertainment.
Christine: Okay, that sounds like fun.
Em: Which if you recall last week, that was what they would write on all of the taverns to let people know passing through that it was indeed a tavern and inn.
Christine: And it had entertainment for your horse.
Em: Entertainment for man and horse without the E at the time.
Christine: Right. Sure.
Em: Maybe he put it on his last name, and then he was like, let's also throw a one on horse and he was the beginning of it all.
Christine: I feel like maybe the person who was creating the signs and stuff added the Es to be like, oh, just I charge per letter.
Em: Yeah, yeah. That has to be it.
Christine: Maybe he was like I'm just gonna add a few letters, they won't even notice.
Em: Or he's got writer's cramp.
Christine: Writer's cramp?
Em: Like your wrist.
Christine: Wouldn't that mean he'd write less, fewer letters?
Em: Well, he was probably trying to avoid it, so he wrote less.
Christine: Wasn't he adding it? Wait, what?
Em: No horse did use to have an E rememer?
Christine: Oh, I know, I know, I thought... 'Cause we were talking about how it developed the E, and I was saying, I wonder if whoever was making signs in that town added an E to be like I charge by the letter, so pay me extra.
Em: Yes, he was making a prettier penny than others.
Christine: Right, maybe. I don't know, just a thought.
Em: So the house was on the route that people used to travel from Boston to New York, so it was on a poppen street.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: Main street USA for this area. And David was like, Well, I'm obviously going to run with that, and if this is on a very busy path and I now have my license for public entertainment, uh, we're gonna make this bad boy an inn so he expands on his own house even more, he becomes an innkeeper, and fun fact, he becomes a second generation of innkeeper because his father nearby also runs an inn.
Christine: Aww.
Em: And this is just more of a fun fact than anything else, but his dad runs an inn called The Black Horse Inn.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: And one of my favorite... uh I didn't do any personal research last night about this, but one of my favorite fun facts that I just kinda know in general is that taverns used to always be like a phrase like that, like Black Horse Inn or like the... I don't know, Red Dog or Cat and Bell, because a lot of people couldn't read, and so you had to be able to describe the picture that was hanging on the sign over the taverns.
Christine: [gasp] Oh, thirsty little rat inn would have a little thirsty rat.
Em: Stop. No, rat hole is what they'd call the bar.
Christine: How cute.
Em: And then the rat's nest is the inn upstairs.
Christine: Well, that's so nice.
Em: And you know they sell cheese.
Christine: Well, obviously.
Em: Obviously.
Christine: Obviously.
Em: But yeah, so fun fact, they were always called a random item and they would pick... And nowadays, when you hear an old bar name, it's always a picture in your mind that's kind of weird, it's like the white gloved fox, and it had to be a specific thing that looked different than the rest of them.
Christine: Oh my gosh. That is a fun fact. I did not know that.
Em: Yeah. It was because...
Christine: Like something descriptive.
Em: Yeah, you just had to AI caption the picture, yourself.
Christine: Woah. I love that.
Em: So anyway, his dad ran the, uh, Black Horse Inn which I'm assuming had a black horse on the sign, and David ended up naming his place, which he did not follow the rule here, he named it the Howe Inn 'cause he wanted to name it after himself.
Christine: Well, okay. Nice try, maybe drew a picture of himself on it.
Em: Well, I think... What I was gonna say next is, I think it ends up getting resolved later because the Howe Inn ends up being ran by four generations of Howes, so David and then his three descendants after him.
Christine: Wow. Okay, so they continue to, continue the lineage.
Em: Yes. And I think at some point there were like, nobody can read, we can't call it the How Inn, so then when David's son takes over, he renames it the Red Horse Inn after his grandpa who runs the Black Horse Inn.
Christine: Oh that's cute. Okay.
Em: And it even becomes a meeting place for soldiers during the Revolutionary War, fun fact.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And it even becomes a uh, an equal opportunity bar where whoever is in charge of the turf at that point, gets to come to the bar. Fun fact.
Christine: Okay, so they just don't discriminate based on their leaning. Their political leanings.
Em: Apparently not. So yeah, uh, Grandpa John, he runs the Black Horse Inn, then his son opens up the Howe Inn farther down the road, I guess. His son, Ezekiel is the one who names it the Red Horse Inn.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And then in 1796, his son Adam Howe turns it into Wilkerson's Tavern, I guess people can read again.
[laughter]
Christine: And then he picked a big one.
Em: Yeah, also like, what is Wilkerson about?
Christine: Who the hell is that?
Em: What a random ass last name. Umm. In 1830, Adam's son Lyman, he takes over the inn until he passes in the 1860s. Weird about Lyman, he was known in town as the Squire of Sudbury...
Christine: Huh?
Em: And nobody felt like giving me an explanation to that.
Christine: Okay, sure.
Em: So I would like to be known as the Bard of Burbank or something.
Christine: Oh!
Em: Oh wait, there's already one of those I think.
Christine: Oh. Are you gonna usurp the throne?
Em: No, no, no, I would never do that. The bard is actually very impressive.
Christine: Who is that?
Em: He's a guy on the street of downtown Burbank and he will play guitar.
Christine: Oh he performs. Great, so you're about to try and put him out of business.
Em: Yeah. I don't wanna do that. And he's very good, he sings a lovely yesterday.
Christine: Aww.
Em: So I gotta come up with a new thing, but if there's a Squire of Sudbury, I could be something of Burbank.
Christine: Yeah, sure.
Em: You come up with it, you let me know when that's handled.
Christine: Okay, I will.
Em: So that means that there were four generations that ran this inn, five in total, because there's the other guy who ran his own. They love innkeeping. That's just their jam.
Christine: I see. I can see that.
Em: So the last one, the last Howe of the family to run the inn was Lyman, the Squire of Sudbury.
Christine: The squire.
Em: He also had a sister, Adam's daughter, her name was Jerusha, and she worked at the end with the squire until she also passed away in the '40s, so we're gonna come back to Jerusha...
Christine: Okay
Em: But just know that the last generation of the family to own this place was a brother and sister duo.
Christine: And this is in the 1840s?
Em: Yes.
Christine: Okay, gotcha.
Em: And it was in the 1840s, because Jerusha ends up dying in the 1840s, I think.
Christine: What about the bear in the Burbank?
Em: There was some conflicting info, let's just say through the 1860s.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Because that's when Lyman dies and then the inn has to be passed on, so at some point also the inn is called the Leric Hotel and Tavern, but we don't know a lot of information on that, so just throwing... Just so you have all the names, at some point it was also called the Leric. Umm, and fun fact, ever since it opened, they served certain old drinks here, which I would like to maybe either test your knowledge or just educate...
Christine: [gasp] Oh, I probably don't know. You educate me.
Em: Okay. So there are two drinks that they used to sell here, they would sell others, but these two get mentions in articles, one is called a Flip, which apparently was a common cocktail in the colonial era, and it was... There's a lot of and/or options for the ingredients, I guess it was depending on what they had in stock.
Christine: Sure.
Em: But to make a Flip, you needed to have either hard cider or ale...
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: Mixed with dark rum or brandy...
Christine: Okay.
Em: Mixed with molasses or sugar...
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: Mixed with spices or cinnamon stick.
Christine: [gasp]
Em: And eggs.
Christine: Blech. I knew it. I was like... Oh, if you had me guess, I was gonna say guarantee there's eggs in one of them because I don't know why I've all these little time in one's have eggs. It's gross.
Em: Yeah, we've talked about it in a previous episode and I've already forgotten the purpose, but something maybe about preserving it or...
Christine: I think we've talked about it in an after hours when we were doing Halloween cocktails maybe, is that right?
Em: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christine: 'Cause I feel like we talked about putting egg white in your drink and I said, "It's really not my jam, but... " I don't know.
Em: Mmmm. Anyway, if you have any of those, especially eggs...
Christine: [chuckle]
Em: You can make it flip in your very own home.
Christine: What if I... What if I have eggs in a cinnamon stick, will that work? [laughter]
Em: You're halfway there. And I guess back then, they also like this thing hot, so if you like scrambled eggs.
Christine: Oh!
Em: In your brandy...
Christine: That's so much worse! Somehow, that's worse. I don't even know.
Em: You could take a hot poker next to the fireplace and stir that around in the drink to make it hot.
Christine: Is that really what they did? No way. That's actually pretty cool.
Em: You couldn't just set it by the fire... I don't know why we're sticking a dirty metal stick full of ash into our egg drink.
Christine: Shaken not stirred.
Em: But, whatever.
Christine: Stirred not baked by the hearth.
Em: I know if there's eggs in a cup, and this is true, if you happen to know food science, please let me know. But if you crack like two eggs into a cup full of alcohol and then just sit it by the fire, does it turn into like...
Christine: A souffle?
Em: A quiche?
Christine: [laughter] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: That's funny. I had that same thought. Huh.
Em: Interesting.
Christine: Oh my God. Imagine...
Em: Weigh in food scientists.
Christine: If the liquid and the egg whites, right, get mixed together and then they get baked and now you have an alcoholic quiche, or an alcoholic souffle.
Em: It's creative. I think if I were on Chopped I would... That's a risk I'd be willing to take, but anywhere else, nobody wants to eat that maybe. Unless she's like some of those weirdly into eggs.
Christine: I mean, I'm weirdly into eggs but even I won't go that far. So maybe I'm not as weirdly into them as I thought.
Em: I... I would be interested to see it on a plate as a server is bringing it to another table. You know what I mean?
Christine: Where he has a metal poker and he's just like clanging it.
Em: [laughter] It becomes like a whole... Like how they used... How they have the cart that makes guacamole every now and then.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: They just bring a dirty stick out and some eggs and put it in your alcohol.
Christine: [laughter] And you know there's an up-charge for that. I guess it's not gonna be cheap. [laughter]
Em: Yeah. [laughter] But someone is posting on their socials about that.
Christine: Yeah, for sure. Very Instagram worthy.
Em: Very. Umm, so that's the first drink. That was called the Flip, and I guess that... I guess some ingredients could be changed out for others, but the eggs always stayed, um, and then the second drink, which is apparently specific to the Wayside Inn and claims to be the oldest cocktail in the country, and they still serve it. You can have it yourself. It is called The Coow-Woow.
Christine: I've never... Never heard of it.
Em: Which is spelled Cow Wow.
Christine: Cow Wow. [laughter] Oh my God.
Em: And I kept saying "Cow Wow" for about three hours, and then I watched one video on it and immediately was humbled where they went.
Christine: I cannot abide by us talking about Cow Wow for the next half hour and then being so mortified when this episode comes out.
Em: [chuckle] Well, I thought maybe it was like... In my head, I know they did not speak like this in the 1700s, but I was like, "Maybe they... " It was such a strong drink, they were trying to say like, "Cowabunga!" Like something...
Christine: Cow wow!
Em: Or "Woow!" Oh wait, woow makes sense. Coow Woow. Mmm.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Okay. Well, maybe I just figured it out. Umm, by the way... And it's spelled C-O-O-W W-O-O-W.
Christine: Okay, you did say that it was spelled Cow Wow, which I feel that that's not quite what that spells.
Em: I feel like that's just Cow Wow, we just put extra O's. But I...
Christine: [laughter]
Em: Okay. Well, I feel like the W's at the end aren't necessary. If it was just C-O-O W-O-O I would have...
Christine: I told you the sign maker paid... Charges per letter. How many times do I have to tell you?
Em: [chuckle] You know what, put it on a bumper sticker, and no one will know you were actually on your car leaving a decal about a cocktail.
Christine: An alcohol, yeah. An alcoholic drink. So what's in the Coow Woow?
Em: So, the Coow Woow... Which... There... Again, there's no... There's no explanation to the name. Umm, it is easy. This one you can do with two ingredients. It is two parts rum...
Christine: Blech.
Em: One part ginger brandy.
Christine: [chuckle]
Em: That's how most people seemed online. They were like, "Well... "
Christine: I was gonna say, in a pinch or like if it's... You know.
Em: I'll get it once if I ever visit the actual place.
Christine: Right, novelty.
Em: Like for the novelty of visiting... You get one for the table and everyone takes a sip.
Christine: Yeah, we all take a sip and then we say. "Have fun. Coow Woow" and then we get something else.
Em: [chuckle] But also imagine for some reason, you're having like a bachelorette party in Sudbury, Massachusetts...
Christine: [gasp] Now we're talking.
Em: And you could be the silver room girls. The Coow Woow girls.
Christine: That's really fun, Em. I like that.
Em: Just saying. So anyway, fun fact, you could have a Flip, you could have a Coow Woow, you can probably have other things, but those are the two most noteworthy ones, and now we're in the 1860s after the Howe family has owned it. So, in 1862, at the time, this was during the war, and so I think the inn was suffering for a few reasons, but it was looking a little dilapidated. However, author Henry Wadsworth Longfellow...
Christine: Ahh, I'm seeing the catch now.
Em: He visits the inn after being encouraged by his publisher and probably his own friends and family, because I just, in my research, learned one of the reasons that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow...
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: Was probably such a sad, sad man at this point in his life, he very, very, very awfully lost his wife in a house fire that he was also in.
Christine: Oh no. [gasp]
Em: And he couldn't get to her in time and it was an accident.
Christine: [gasp]
Em: It was just like the wax from a candle, and I guess uh, he was known for a very long beard.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: When people think of him, they see a picture of him, he's got a very long beard. Apparently was because in the fire he burned his face so much that he couldn't shave anymore.
Christine: [gasp]
Em: And so, he ends up growing up the beard and it became like his iconic look.
Christine: Oh my God, I had no idea. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. And so he ended up losing his wife very... Out of nowhere and in a very awful way, and people were like... And he was still trying to work and write at this point, and he was like, "I have writer's block, I don't know why." And everyone was like, "Dude, fucking go somewhere and like, just like chill." So he goes out into the middle of nowhere, and apparently he ends up in Sudbury, Massachusetts, and he finds this inn. And like I said, the tavern and the inn were in rough shape. I think part of it was only now being used for lodging. That could have been because it was during the war, the business was sinking 'cause the Howe family just lost it. Umm, and also, after seven additions, this is extra interesting, after the building had had seven additions built on top of it...
Christine: Oh shit.
Em: It also went through a fire. So... Umm... Anyway, it wasn't looking good. He wasn't feeling good. They were a match made in heaven and while he was staying there, umm, this is where he got his inspiration for his now famous collection of stories called The Tales of a Wayside Inn.
Christine: Oh my God.
Em: And so I'm not going to read the whole thing 'cause it's long, but he has a prelude in this book where he describes the inn itself that he is staying in...
Christine: Aww. Wow.
Em: And all the experiences he has in it, what he writes about throughout the collection. And part of the prelude is him just describing the inn and it says "Half effaced by rain and shine the red horse prances on the sign." So I'm guessing they still have the old red horse sign up from like when like his grandpa...
Christine: Aww, yeah.
Em: When like one of the older Howe men still had it. Umm, "Half effaced by rain and shine the red horse prances on the sign. Round this old fashion quaint abode, deep silence reigned, save wind and gust went rushing down the country road and skeletons of leaves and dust. A moment quickened by its breath shattered and danced their dance of death, and through the ancient oaks overhead mysterious voices moaned and fled."
Christine: Wooh. You just gave me goosecam.
Em: So this book became a best seller, and the popularity of it brought in all these new people wanting to see the inn and like stay where Longfellow did. Fun fact, also around this time, he wrote the poem, Paul Revere's Ride, which was big for him.
Christine: Woah.
Em: And in 1897, this is only a few years after the Howes no longer owned the inn, a guy named Edward Lemon, [laughter] he bought a building and renamed it, or he bought the building and renamed it after the poem and called it Longfellow's Wayside Inn. And his goal...
Christine: I'm mad. I'm mad 'cause there was such a good opportunity for the Lemon Inn. The Lem-Inn.
Em: The Lem Inn. Well, also there was a wasted opportunity when the Howes lived there, they should have called it The How-Se.
Christine: [laughter] That's pretty good.
Em: People are just dumb. Dummies. Umm, so Lemon calls it the Longfellow's Wayside Inn and he decides that he wants it to be a getaway location for aspiring writers and poets to, you know, work as Longfellow did when they stay there. Unfortunately, in 1923, so only like 25 years later, the family has... The Lemon family has lost a lot of money trying to restore this place 'cause it looked real rough at one point, and they've lost a lot of money, and Edward ends up dying. And so his wife, Mrs. Lemon, is left with like, "How do I pay for this? What do I do? I don't even want anything to do with this. Honestly, I'm just gonna sell it," and luckily, sells the property to Henry Ford.
Christine: [gasp] Oh, shit. What?
Em: Well, so he apparently was a big fan of Longfellow. It also worked out that he could afford to do the rest of the renovations and keep it an inn, and that man loved a living history museum. And so he wanted to turn it into a living history museum.
Christine: Okay, that's cool. What's a living history? Is that when people dress up?
Em: I think so. It's like creating... So I am going to butcher this, so if you're a Henry Ford fan, which why, because capitalism, but if you know anything about him...
Christine: Umm, Em, he was like he was really into eugenics, but yeah, also capitalism. [chuckle]
Em: That's a great point. I'm talking about capitalism 'cause what I'm... My next thing I'm gonna say is, when we were in Detroit, I went to the Henry Ford Museum, and it was very pro-capitalism. Umm, there was a lot of... So that part's more on my mind right now.
Christine: I mean, yeah, they're trying to sell you a car.
Em: Well, also he created like the assembly line and the 9 to 5, and he is the reason why you and me and our brains suffer because the world is not meant for, you know, diversity.
Christine: Oh yeah, very anti union. It's a whole thing.
Em: To answer your question, he is very into living history museums and that he likes to keep a whole space looking exactly as it did during a certain point in time, and one of the things that he has at his museum is like I think, I think I could be fucking this up, but it sounds like he completely recreated his like childhood town on the museum property.
Christine: Of? Wait, of this inn or like the...
Em: Of the Henry Ford Museum.
Christine: Oh, yeah.
Em: One of the things you can pay for is like to go through his childhood town that he's rebuilt there.
Christine: Yes, he like recreated the past... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Which... Umm, I didn't get to do that. It was gonna take too long. I only did the like indoor museum part.
Christine: I think it was closed when I... I've been a couple of times to that museum, I think it was closed, but I think my mom's been to that part.
Em: That was... I mean, I don't like Henry Ford, but that was an incredible museum.
Christine: It's a really nice museum. It's... And he's like a brilliant guy. I mean really fucked up obviously, but like really brilliant guy. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. It's always the brilliant ones that take it a little too fucking far.
Christine: Yeah, well, not always the brilliant ones, but sometimes... [laughter]
Em: Someone with a lot of power, a lot of money. Can you believe it?
Christine: Oh, yeah.
Em: So anyway, he likes a living museum. He saw this inn, and as a fan of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, he was like, "I know just what to do here." He bought thousands of acres around the area.
Christine: Oh boy.
Em: And he even consulted with Thomas Edison on how to set up electricity. Which like, That's the guy.
Christine: Yeah. I mean, if you're gonna go to the source, go to the fucking source.
Em: That's like a mob guy being like, "Oh, I know someone. I know... So no, don't even worry about it. I got it handled." And it's Thomas fucking Edison.
Christine: Oh, I was gonna say Tony Soprano. [laughter] I missed the metaphor. Okay.
Em: The Thomas Edison of the Italian mob. So, yeah.
Christine: I understand. Okay, okay, okay. Famously.
Em: So he consults with Edison for electricity, he buys up all this acreage and he ends up putting several buildings on the site, which I think some of them he restored some of them, he built from scratch. I think he restored most of them and then relocated them to the property, and some of these buildings were a grain mill, sawmills, a barn, a boys' school, an orphanage for teenage boys, a dairy, a blacksmith's shop, gardens, orchards. All sorts of stuff.
Christine: So is the, like for example, the boys' school, is that functioning or is that just like for show?
Em: It was functioning on the property originally when he set it up.
Christine: Okay.
Em: And I think he also wanted all of these other pieces of the property to be working, so that way while the teenagers were staying there, they could also learn trades on a farm.
Christine: Gotcha, okay.
Em: So it ends up being, I guess, a very living museum.
Christine: Very living.
Em: [chuckle] My two favorite places that he built, or of the things that he put on the property, one was a chapel, which I only like it for this fun fact. He called the Martha Mary chapel, and it's named after him and his wife's moms. That's nice.
Christine: Oh, that's nice. Wait. Him... Oh, his mom and his wife's mom?
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: That's cute.
Em: So yours would be the Sherry Renata chapel.
Christine: Renata Sherry... Yeah. Nah... Again, our family names never worked together. I don't know. It's unfortunate.
Em: Uhh, the Linda Renata would actually be very lovely.
Christine: That would be the Renata Linda, which would mean the pretty Renata. She'll love that. [laughter]
Em: Alright, sure. But no, that's... The only fun fact is that it's named after their moms, and then my other favorite thing that he put on this property is he relocated a one-room school house.
Christine: [gasp] I should have seen that coming. How did I... I didn't see that coming.
Em: I love a one-room school house. And here are some fun facts about it, it was open until 1951, the grades that operated there were first grade through fourth grade. It was called the Red Stone School because wouldn't you believe it, it was made of Red Stone.
Christine: Wow.
Em: And here is my number one favorite fun fact about this, the Red Stone School had a student. Her name was Mary. That bitch had a pet lamb.
Christine: [gasp] I know about this story. Oh my gosh.
Em: She nursed that little lamb back to health, and it was so attached to her, it followed her wherever she may go, including...
Christine: Followed her to school one day, huh?
Em: School one day. And the teacher said, "Uh-uh, get that lamb out of here, you have to do your homework." Umm, but it was such a legendary moment that one of the people that witnessed this wrote a three-verse poem about it later that day, and it was the original rendition of Mary Had a Little Lamb.
Christine: [gasp] Wow.
Em: So... Also, another fun fact, this song, Mary Had a Little Lamb, was the first audio to be recorded on a phonograph invented by Thomas Edison.
Christine: [gasp] Oh my gosh, full circle. Also, side note, I know there's like a lot of dispute over who actually wrote the... Or how that song came to be. Just fyi, in case any historians are like, "That's not real." I don't... Listen, I don't think anyone really knows. So don't yell at us. But that is...
Em: So, in 1830, there was a girl named Sarah, who claims that she wrote the original one, but this one at least in Sudbury, Massachusetts, it is part of the full-blown documented legend.
Christine: Right.
Em: They have like apparently statues of... Or monuments elsewhere or plaques that state that this is the home of Mary Had a Little Lamb, written by a guy named John Ralston who gave the scribbled poem he wrote to Mary. It's a whole thing.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: But if you live in Sudbury, this is the real story.
Christine: This is the real deal. We got you.
Em: Anyways, I thought it was very interesting that the phonograph that he invented, would... The first song would be about a kid who's school he tried to set up electricity for. Like, it's just like extra fun.
Christine: That's very mind-blowing. Like, very mind-blowing.
Em: Small world.
Christine: Small world.
Em: Anyway, if you would like to see it, it is still there. It has its own Wikipedia page.
Christine: [gasp] Are we gonna go? When we're there?
Em: Sure. Sure.
Christine: You don't seem very excited about it.
Em: We can sing the song. I can eat some lamb.
Christine: Well, let's not do that.
Em: No? Okay.
Christine: Do you think they serve it there, at the one-room school house? I doubt it.
Em: No. But just for like the on the... On-theme. I'll find a restaurant.
Christine: Fine, I'll eat some red horse. Okay, and then we'll be even.
Em: Oh. If you have red horse, I'll have black horse.
Christine: Perfect.
Em: Okay, and we can high five. But really it's like, high clop.
Christine: Cool. With our meals?
Em: Mmm. I didn't think it through.
Christine: Do you eat the feet?
Em: I did not think it through. Anyway, so Henry Ford restores the Wayside Inn and re-opens it as an Inn. It's now a historical landmark. It has 10 guest rooms and a restaurant, it also hosts tours. It is apparently the oldest operating inn left in the United States.
Christine: Ohh.
Em: And in its time, it has been visited by people such as President Washington, President Coolidge, Charles Lindbergh, Thomas Edison, General Lafayette, the Rockefellers. I'm sure others since. And if you visit, you can still order a cup of Coow Woow [laughter] and now, I'm going to mention the ghosts. So, many people have reported experiences here. Many have... Many investigators have stayed the night, people have felt blankets get ripped off of them, just starting out hot.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
Em: People felt blankets get ripped off of them while they're sleeping.
Christine: So you can still sleep here still. Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't... I don't think I caught that. So I thought it was just a restaurant.
Em: Yeah. So it has 10 guest rooms and a restaurant that you can still...
Christine: Understood. Okay. Wow, oh my gosh! Okay, I kinda wanna go.
Em: And you're gonna have some Coow Woow.
Christine: Happily.
Em: Yeah, so as for the ghost people... There's a lot of people who've had experiences here. People have had blankets ripped off of them, their doors will lock themselves from the inside, so they can't get back into their rooms.
Christine: Mmm.
Em: Items will fly off of the kitchen shelves, but then gently land on the floor.
Christine: [chuckle] Oh that's nice.
Em: Items will move on their own, people hear voices, people hear footsteps, equipment will drain and die. Curtains will open and close, windows will go up and down by themselves, faucets will turn on and off. Apparently there's a phantom cat, and people hear sounds in empty halls, including children running up and down the halls when nobody is supposed to be staying on that hall that night. One spirit has apparently rearranged coins on people's night stands.
Christine: [gasp] I like that, that's cool.
Em: And one appears... One spirit appears as a green orange set of lights that slowly flicker throughout the room and just moves throughout the room as a light.
Christine: That's pretty cool too.
Em: Apparently, it's not very threatening. It's like having fireflies in your room.
Christine: Yeah, until it comes a little too close and you're like, "Okay."
Em: And then you're like, "Oh fuck."
Christine: Fuck off! [chuckle]
Em: Like, that was fun until it wasn't.
Christine: Until it wasn't.
Em: So many people have had experiences here that they began writing notes about their experiences and leaving them here.
Christine: [gasp] Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Em: And here's some factoid about the notes: Back in the 1950s, while this inn was open, the inn-keeper used to try to make fun of it for the kids and would start hiding candy and treats in certain rooms for kids to try to discover, like a treasure hunt.
Christine: Aww.
Em: And would find candy, he would leave it in drawers and desks, and the kids loved this. Apparently adults also loved it too, and so they... It was like basically geocaching inside the inn.
Christine: I love that.
Em: Let's find the treasure.
Christine: It's like an Easter egg hunt.
Em: Well, also like geocaching, not only do you find things, but you leave things for future people.
Christine: [gasp] Oh.
Em: And people started leaving notes after finding notes. They started leaving notes for future guests.
Christine: Oh, that's cute.
Em: And they... It became this thing where they would leave them in really odd places. It became, like they would leave them in not just book shelves, but like in the rafters shoved into the ceiling beams. They would leave stuff like in the floor boards. They would leave things in pillow cases or behind the couch, or they would just leave notes everywhere for people to find, and it became this thing at the inn.
Christine: OK. I kind of love it.
Em: It's still a thing today.
Christine: Really?
Em: Uh-hmm.
Christine: So I wonder if there's any from back then that have never been found.
Em: Maybe. There could be.
Christine: Like I wanna find one from the 50s, you know.
Em: They've never fully pulled it all out, so, yeah.
Christine: That's pretty cool. Or imagine you find a piece of candy from the 50s.
Em: Ugh. Yeah, and it's like a... Like very old. It's like a...
Christine: Well now it's part of a rat's nest.
Em: [chuckle] Yes.
Christine: Like, for sure that brought in some mice, or bugs, cockroaches. I don't know.
Em: So this activity of, if you write a note and hide it somewhere, it became known as joining the Secret Drawer Society.
Christine: [laughter] That's so cute.
Em: Because most often the notes are left inside the drawers of the guest rooms for other guests to read when they get in.
Christine: What a fun idea.
Em: And a lot of the notes are based on people's ghosts encounters.
Christine: Okay.
Em: To comment on the last thing you said, one of the oldest ghost stories that we've seen on the notes...
Christine: Yeah.
Em: I have to say the note is not from this time, the note is referring to a story from this time.
Christine: Oh, okay. Okay.
Em: Before you get super jazzed, one note said that there... That ghost encounters have existed here since 1868.
Christine: Wow.
Em: Because on this note, apparently someone in 1868 witnessed a ghost half floating and half running through one of the old event spaces and the story has been passed on since.
Christine: [gasp] Half floating, half running.
Em: One of the oldest notes that was found, to actually answer your comment, is from 1973.
Christine: Ooh, that's pretty cool.
Em: Of dark shadows moving around a guest room. That's what they saw.
Christine: Oh, I don't like that.
Em: Thousands of notes have been left throughout this building, like thousands of thousands, like so many. Like, there... There's even a mega...
Christine: And like, if you find one do you...
Em: What?
Christine: If you find one do you turn it in or do you like take it home? What do you do?
Em: It's just like, you just leave them for people to read now.
Christine: Oh, you leave them there and you can add your own. It's not like, take it and leave something else.
Em: I think it might have been originally, but now it's just part of the experience of getting to read everyone's past notes.
Christine: So you're not supposed to take it, I assume, out of the...
Em: I'm sure some people do, but it's like... It's essentially like a... When you... Like a guest book.
Christine: Got you. Okay, okay. Oh, that's so fun.
Em: Umm, there's even a mega-sized treasure chest full, all the way brimming with notes...
Christine: Oh my gosh.
Em: In one of the rooms. Like, there's just so many. Umm, one paranormal team actually read through a lot of the notes because they want to see how many were about ghosts.
Christine: Sure.
Em: And this is interesting 'cause it feels kind of like a bummer, but it's still interesting. They went through almost 4000 notes and found that 6% mentioned a paranormal experience, which still means hundreds of ghost experiences, but only 6% out of 4000. Umm, hang on. My TV's acting up. I don't know why.
Christine: Uh-oh. Our tech... Our tech today is having some problems.
Em: I know. I don't... No one asks for this. Umm, okay. Anyway. Umm, yeah. So 6% of 4000, and that's not like all of the notes. That's just 4000 as a sample.
Christine: Oh, wow, okay. Geez.
Em: If we're guessing 6%, then that means it's even more than, I don't know, like 300 ghost stories that have been written down. And that's just the ones that have been written down. There's probably been several that weren't written down.
Christine: True. Or the ones that have been left behind and not like taken. Like with guests.
Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I'm sure like famous people have left notes there and then people steal them, you know. So...
Christine: Probably.
Em: A lot of the paranormal occurrences do have to do with one specific ghost. I would argue that this place only has one ghost.
Christine: Really? So active with one ghost. Okay.
Em: And her name is Jerusha.
Christine: No way! She's back! That's like the scariest name a ghost can have in my opinion.
Em: Jerusha Howe. I know.
Christine: Like Jerusha Howe sounds so frightening to me. I'm afraid of her.
Em: I... I hope that she's a girly girl. Like I hope... I feel like we'd get along 'cause otherwise she is terrifying. It's like Bathsheba. Like...
Christine: Exactly. There's something very like alarmist about that name. [chuckle]
Em: These days, if I met a Jerusha, I'd be like, "I feel like you have a very interesting story." And I feel like...
Christine: I was gonna say, "Tell me your story." That's what I would say. Yup.
Em: I feel like you could drink any grown man under the table. [laughter] Like... Or Bathsheba...
Christine: [laughter] I'd like to think you've never taken a sip of alcohol in your life.
Em: Bathsheba can fix your car and like better than anyone else.
Christine: Oh, really? I think she would just bewitch your car. [laughter]
Em: I mean, that's probably why it worked so well when she's done with that.
Christine: Maybe, maybe.
Em: Umm. Anyway, so a reminder of who Jerusha Howe is, of all of the generations of Howes who ran the inn, the last ones were a brother and sister duo named Lyman, the Squire of Sudbury, and his sister Jerusha. And Jerusha worked at the inn until her death, which seems like it's around 1845.
Christine: Okay.
Em: While she worked there, she was apparently a goddamn delight.
Christine: Oh, okay. That changes it. Alright.
Em: People loved her. Men came in just to see her because her brother may have been the Squire of Sudbury, but she was the Belle of Sudbury.
Christine: Oh, okay.
Em: She was apparently a hotty potatty. And not only that, but she was educated, she was kind and she was talented, and she was especially musically talented. She could sing, she could play instruments, she was the first person in town to own a piano.
Christine: Oh my gosh, Jerusha.
Em: And so, I guess a lot of people in town were like, "What the fuck is a piano? We gotta go see this thing."
Christine: [laughter] What is a piano?
Em: And she would just... And she would play it for the patrons at the inn.
Christine: That's adorable. Do people still hear that? Piano music?
Em: Hmmm. Mmm, maybe Christine. When the inn began to suffer due to her brother's own issues, apparently he had like a drinking issue and he couldn't keep up at the inn the way that his parents could. I mean, imagine the pressure being the fifth generation inn-keeper, like you have to fucking be good at it or else people are gonna laugh at you.
Christine: Truly, truly. Yeah. And like you... You have to like make it your own, sort of in your own way, and... That's a lot of pressure.
Em: So, apparently he was not doing very well. He was struggling under the pressure and Jerusha took over. She said, "If a boy can do it, I can do it."
Christine: Step aside. [chuckle]
Em: Yeah, exactly. Umm, so she's taken over the inn. People just know her for her like lovely piano playing.
Christine: Aww.
Em: She had many suitors. None she was interested in.
Christine: Oh, fuck yes.
Em: So at first I thought, "Gay." But just because I want it so bad, I just want her to be one of us. You know.
Christine: Wouldn't it be nice?
Em: And maybe she was, but we never know. All that we know is that one day, while she's working there, a guest is staying at the inn for quite a long period of time, because he's usually overseas, in England, but they fall in love.
Christine: [gasp]
Em: And he... They are just smitten with each other, at least that's how the story goes. But then he says, the classic, I mean, it's a hotel and the ghost is a woman. What do you think is about to happen, Christine? He says, "I love you so much, but I have to go home for a minute and I'll return one day."
Christine: Stop. Why do they keep doing this?
Em: I think he was just a fuck boy. I think he was like, "While I stayed here, I was, you know... "
Christine: Stop doing that.
Em: "You know, having a good time with one of the people who works here. And now I'm gonna go back to England, I'm never gonna get caught." Umm, but man, she fell for him. And so he goes back to England with the promise of "I'm just gonna finish... You know, tie up some things there. And I'll be right back."
Christine: That's sad.
Em: Home girl waits for years...
Christine: Oh no.
Em: And by years, some stories say 44 years.
Christine: Jesus Christ.
Em: Which can't be true because other sources say she died at 44. So let's just say like...
Christine: [laughter] Woah okay. Yeah.
Em: People heard 44 and didn't know what to do with it.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: So let's just say like, max 20 years.
Christine: Okay, gotcha.
Em: But she waited for a long ass time for this man to come back.
Christine: Decades, aww.
Em: Do you think she had to have a girlfriend in town who was like, "It's been like 10 years. Like, get it together, girl."
Christine: I know, but sometimes you just can't fight that, you know.
Em: She was still every now and then have a dream about him and it would all start up all over again in her...
Christine: Yes! And there's no closure, right? So it's like, "Oh, what happened?" It's not like you got dumped and you say, "Okay, I have to move on." It's like, "Well, there's always a chance. He'll come back." And that... You know, that's really too bad.
Em: Well, so she waited forever, and she worked at the inn. I'm assuming she felt now an obligation to like not only her family of keeping up an inn, but I can't leave because what if he comes back and he needs to find me.
Christine: Oh, true. Now you feel almost like stuck. Oh, that's terrible.
Em: It's like those side things that uh, false promises lead to... It's like, "Oh, now you've trapped her." Like...
Christine: Yes.
Em: Situationally.
Christine: You thought you would just go away and she'll forget about you and now look... Now look, you've created a ghost.
Em: Yup.
Christine: Good job.
Em: Yeah. So uh, yeah. She waits for him. He never... He never comes back and she dies at 44 from a broken heart.
Christine: Oh.
Em: Um, in this story, again, we don't have a lot of evidence of it, but it has become... It might as well be official documentation lore.
Christine: Right.
Em: Um and it apparently especially blew up during the rise of the internet, I guess it helped to market the inn as a haunted place.
Christine: Sure.
Em: We don't have a lot of proof. The only proof we have that people really ride hard on is that there are two diary entries that she left in her diary.
Christine: [gasp]
Em: And they are seemingly noticeably different compared to the rest of her writing because she's very flowery and you know, very wordy, but around the time that this guy would have been around two entries, say, a first introduction. And that's it. And then, rid of that trouble.
Christine: [gasp] Shut the fuck up.
Em: Which like that sounds so girl boss, but also I thought you were waiting for decades and decades for him, so like...
Christine: I know, it's just sad. It's like she was trying to manifest the like detachment, but couldn't really muster it in a way.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: It's like when you tell your friends like, oh, I'm so over him, but like you do text him at night.
Christine: I do, I was just reading my, like an old journal which by the way, make sure you're in the right head space before you do that. Uh, I certainly wasn't, and I'm like, skimming through, this will be fun, and then I was just feeling like terribly sad for my past self. And there was this one where I'd just gotten dumped uh on a school night over the phone, and I was like...
Em: Oof.
Christine: Oh, it was a rough one, and I was like journaling and you could literally... This is not a joke, there are like tear stains like on the paper, but I was writing...
Em: Girl.
Christine: I know it's really pathetic. And then I was writing um...
Em: Who are you, Jerusha?
Christine: I know. I was writing reasons why um, like reasons why he was not a good match for me, but like I was just trying to force myself to like think about bad things, even though I was like heartbroken, you know?
Em: Aww
Christine: So, I can, I can sort of see it being like good riddance, but like, you're still heart broken, you know. I feel like that's something...
Em: Yeah, yeah, we've all been there. We've all been there. You can't just turn it off. Not after uh the throes of passion that she seems to have gone through.
Christine: For sure, yeah. Sounds like her first love.
Em: Yeah, especia... I mean, she was turning down man after man every night.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And this was finally the one she like let in, you know.
Christine: Oofa doofa, that's gotta hurt.
Em: So uh anyway, those were the two diary entries, and then after that she started quoting a lot of like really depressing poetry, so I guess between those things...
Christine: Oh Longfellows entering the vocabulary. [chuckle]
Em: It was like... And it's so classic like first love heartbreak where it's like rid of that trouble and then just like very long-winded depressing poetry.
Christine: And then just like, why am I so sad. I can't figure it out. It's like, oh girl. Come on. [chuckle]
Em: Well, so that's, that's all we have is that apparently at some point...
Christine: Sheesh.
Em: She got rid of some man and then she had a bout of sadness and people have turned it into this whole story, um...
Christine: Okay, so we... So literally those entries are all that we like you're saying are all the concrete...
Em: That's it.
Christine: Okay, okay, so maybe she wasn't even sad and it's just become that story you're saying?
Em: Maybe she never even met a man, you know, like maybe...
Christine: Maybe the good riddance was just like a lamb that was following her around all day and she's like, God this fucking clingy ass lamb.
[chuckle]
Em: Mary had a little trauma, little trauma...
Christine: Jerusha had... Jerusha had a little...
Em: Jerusha had a big fat problem...
Christine: Oh big.
Em: And it was a man. So I feel like her... I feel like the situation is that, back then, especially, I feel like all these men wanted her and she kept rejecting them, and maybe they could have just been like, oh yeah, she only doesn't want me 'cause she's still pining over another guy and like the story could have come out of anywhere. You know?
Christine: Right, true. True. And it could have just come out of like people wanting it to be a little more romantic and flowery and tragic. Like it was or something. Yeah.
Em: Yeah, like she could have, maybe... And I'm sure if you're working there long enough, like there are rumors I hear that uh the flight attendant industry is quite a breeding ground for hook-ups, um...
Christine: A breeding ground. Full stop.
Em: Whoop, Um. [laughter] Like I just think there's some industries where people just hook up with each other a lot, and I know the service industry is one of them, the food service industry. I have not been a part of it, but I have observed as someone who work in food industry.
Christine: I love that none of this is from... This is the most Em thing ever, 'cause it's not from personal experience, but it's from first-hand discussions with people with personal experience.
Em: I've seen enough, to know enough.
Christine: Em knows it all. Yeah.
Em: I, I imagine even back then like, hey, if you... Uh, I mean, one of the reasons like the flight attendant industry is like that, is like, it's so fleeting, you see someone and you're in another country and like you're...
Christine: Oh yeah, it's gotta feel...
Em: You never have to see each other afterwards.
Christine: Oh yeah, it's got to feel, it's got to feel kind of uh transito... Everything is kind of transitory, literally. Yeah.
Em: Just whimsical. Yeah. Um and I imagine if you work at an inn where people are just passing through all the time and you may never see them again, like...
Christine: Right.
Em: There's gonna be moments and people are drunk, and, you know, so maybe she just had a moment with a guy and people were like, oh, she finally is getting to know somebody...
Christine: She picked, she picked one.
Em: And then it just didn't work out.
Christine: Oh.
Em: Anyway, it could be anything, rumors, rumors, rumors. But that's the legend we all know now of Jerusha is that she's just this heartbroken single woman who waited and waited for a man who never returned.
Christine: Aww.
Em: Well, while she lived there, because she was family, she wasn't just the innkeeper...
Christine: Right.
Em: She was a family member who lived on the property, she lived in what is now room 9 and also room 10. Those two rooms used to be the living quarters.
Christine: Ooh, she got a whole suite. The penthouse suite.
[chuckle]
Em: I think uh one of the sources I read said that room 9 used to be like three rooms that they put in, made into one or something, but blueprint theory, room 9 and 10, she would have been spending a lot of her energy in.
Christine: So I wonder if that wall sees a lot of action. Her walking through it, you know.
[chuckle]
Em: Probably. Um and she has haunted many, many, many guests, I mean, remember how many people have written notes?
Christine: Yes.
Em: And she might be the only ghost here.
Christine: [gasp]
Em: Um she haunts many guests, and most of them are men, and I, the story does not make sense to me, but it is that she is still looking for her long-lost love, and maybe men who looked like him, she is seducing or trying to reconnect with, but this is one of those stories of uh a female ghost who climbs into bed with men.
Christine: Oh boy.
Em: So...
Christine: That's not, that's not cool.
Em: Yeah. So many men have reported feeling someone next to them in bed at night, uh again, this is mainly in rooms 9 or 10, but it could be really in any room. Room 4 also seems to be a big one. Room 9 is the most important one. Um but people say that they feel someone climb into bed with them, they feel someone holding them, cuddling them, touching their face, touching their arms, touching their legs, someone sitting on their bed and watching them, they see imprints in the bed of someone there. Some have said that they've even felt her breath on their face, they have felt that someone kissing their face, they have heard someone whispering to them, and uh one guy even said that when his wife got up to go to the bathroom, he felt a back rub from somebody.
Christine: [gasp] She's like, finally. We got rid of her. Am I right?
[chuckle]
Em: Yeah. She seems to really be into like the married men, especially, like...
Christine: Okay, because I was definitely keeping my mouth shut, 'cause I was like, okay, but I really wanna ask, like, before I forget, does she only do this to people who are alone, but I guess not. Like you don't have to be a single guy.
Em: Apparently, more often than not it's married men.
Christine: Wow, okay.
Em: It's... I think it's all men, most men, but a lot of them are married.
Christine: Okay, so maybe it's just more men are staying there with their partner and that's why maybe?
Em: Yeah, I guess so.
Christine: Weird.
Em: Yeah, right? Like how many times are men actually going to inns because they're passing through town.
Christine: Like sleep by themselves, right.
[chuckle]
Em: It's not like they're like romantic B and Bs .
Christine: I mean, maybe, but... Right. It doesn't seem like probably, you'd probably be at like the Holiday Inn Express or something, you know, if you were just like traveling, business traveling.
[chuckle]
Em: Uh, so people also hear a woman crying, they smell citrus perfume, which apparently was what she wore like an Orange Blossom perfume.
Christine: Ah, oh lovely.
Em: Um people feel something bump into them on the stairs, they see her walking by their bed at night when uh these men are able to wake up or turn around fast enough, if they sense something, they will see her.
Christine: Right.
Em: Like she's really there.
Christine: Oh dear.
Em: Sometimes just standing in the corner of the room watching them.
Christine: Oh like waiting to crawl into bed. Oh no.
Em: Oh and sometimes she immediately disappears like she's startled that she got caught.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: And other times it has taken up to 30 minutes before she fades away from just standing and staring. Bitch.
Christine: Imagine like closing your eyes and being like count to 10, say the Lord's Prayer. Open your eyes. She's still fucking there. Oh my gosh.
Em: I literally don't know what I would say.
Christine: You know what I would do? I know what I would do. I would get out my phone and be like, alright, I'll take a fucking picture, 'cause either I get a picture, something weird or she's gone and I'm happy either way.
Em: I'd be like girl, I-I, you're putting me through something. I need proof of this, so you're gonna stand still for five seconds and just let me get a picture...
Christine: Right. If you let me do that, great.
Em: Oh you can go.
Christine: If not, then get the fuck out. Right, exactly. I think that's what I would do.
Em: What you think is gonna happen here tonight is not gonna happen. So either we do something different, would you have a hang bang, like a little sleepover? Or get the hell out of this room.
Christine: That's exactly it. I'm in 100% agreement.
Em: Uh, she's also apparently seen downstairs by the parlor fireplace wearing a blue dress with a high collar, and it is very common for people to still hear her piano music.
Christine: Okay, sorry, I asked early, I just got excited. I love the idea of music playing, we've seen that in a few places, I just think it's such a cool concept that music can like carry over.
Em: Well, if you would like to know exactly what type of music... This is something I'm sure you could just YouTube. Megan, if you're feeling creative enough, you can find a way to insert music or something, but... No, truly no pressure. [piano music starts] Two of her most popular songs that she is known to have played is a song called 'The Battle of Prague... '
Christine: Woah.
Em: So she played that music a lot, but she was also known to play another song called 'The Copenhagen Waltz.'
Christine: Oh my gosh. Wow. She's a worldly gal.
Em: And by the way, I realized I said, Megan, and not Jack. Sorry.
Christine: I was wondering but I was like, maybe you mean a TikTok? I don't know.
Em: I don't now. We'll see. We'll see.
Christine: Jack, if anything happens, fight to the death.
Em: Someone play a 'Copenhagen Waltz' now or else it would be 'The Battle of Prague' all over again.
Christine: Not again, you know what happened last time? No idea what happened.
Em: So uhh yeah, those were her favorites to play in the piano. Those were the ones that people hear the most now, but even creepier, people swear that they wake up to the piano music playing in their room.
Christine: Woah.
Em: So not like downstairs in the tavern and they hear a faint music, they hear it playing in their room.
Christine: It's not like in the distance, like when you're hearing it and you walk in and it's empty and quiet, it's like oh it's right here...
Em: It's like your nine-year-old cousin brought the keyboard up to your room and was like...
Christine: No!
Em: Here it is.
Christine: Here's the... Yeah, my nine-year-old cousin who loves to play the 'Copenhagen Waltz,' it's his favorite song.
[laughter]
Christine: Meanwhile I'm like...
Em: You know what, your fucking little sister absolutely would eat up 'The Copenhagen Waltz.'
Christine: My mother would be like, I have a song for your toddler. Here it is. It's the 'Battle of Prague.' I feel like actually I would be like I played piano. This is not a joke. I played piano for 17 years, and I would probably be like a Mary had a... [laughter] And I'd still fuck it. Little... No, that's not right. Like I wouldn't even be able to do that, let alone fucking... And also, how are these people... And I'm getting angry. How do these people even knowing what song it is, like how are they like half asleep and they're like, it's right next to my bed. Is that the Battle of Prague I hear? [laughter] Who the fuck knows that? I mean, maybe some people do, but I don't think it's like a general knowledge. Right? I don't know.
Em: I know Massachusetts is one of the most educated states in the country. Maybe...
Christine: I guess so. Maybe they're all just fucking smart. Okay, and maybe that's why I'm so mad right now.
Em: Imagine you wake up the next morning, you're just kind of humming this too, and you're like, I don't... There's something, maybe I had a dream...
Christine: Something haunting about it. Yeah.
Em: I was like... I can't get this song out of my head, I don't know what it is...
[vocalization]
[laughter]
Em: Just something old school. Anyway.
Christine: Beautiful, beautiful.
Em: Yeah, so apparently people can tell, or at least they remember it long enough to play it back later, but it's not like you can Shazam like 'The Copenhagen Waltz.' I don't know.
Christine: Maybe you can. Listen, I wouldn't get ahead of yourself, that could be a fun little test next time we go to this place.
Em: You know how back in the '90s, early 2000s, Target had in the music CD section, you could press a button and hear the sample.
Christine: Oh, I think about that a lot. Where you put on the headphones.
Em: I feel like those are so out of style now, obviously, so discontinued that they're probably cheap, I think the inn should buy two of them and just have 'The Copenhagen Waltz' and the 'Battle of Prague' available to people to check.
Christine: [gasp]
Em: But then think about that fucking guy who's just gonna play it non-stop downstairs, and you think you're hearing a ghost, but it's just the guy downstairs on the jukebox.
Christine: Oh. Yeah, you're right, I feel like that would probably... And maybe it would stir up some activity 'cause she'd be like, this is my favorite song.
Em: Oh God, imagine if it's nobody and she's just down there pressing the button over and over again.
Christine: Well, okay, yeah, that's even worse. She's like, I figured out how to use a juke box.
Em: It's like a dog learning what to press the button for a treat.
[laughter]
Christine: That'd be good
Em: She's like whee...
[laughter]
Em: It's like I don't even have to play it to hear it now. Okay, so yeah, the creepier thing is that people actually hear it in their room instead of just off in the distance. One investigator who stayed in room 9 actually on camera around 3:00 in the morning got a black mist coming out of the floor leaning over him in bed, and then exiting the room via the wall, just going through the wall.
Christine: I love that. She looked at him and was like, nope, fucking pulled through the wall. [laughter] Kool-Aid man out of there, I thought. She's like, ooh, does he look like my lover... Oh, honestly, so much worse than I could have imagined.
[laughter]
Em: Well, then apparently she still wanted to fuck with him because he then woke up to the sound of piano music.
Christine: Oh so she wants to serenade him. Okay, I got it all wrong.
Em: And he uh... Well he even left the room to go downstairs to try to follow the piano music, and he gave up because it sounded so faint by the time he got down there, that as he was climbing back up the stairs...
Christine: No.
Em: Going to his room, he realized the music was the loudest from by his bed.
Christine: Aaahh. That's scary.
Em: Yuck. So she was really trying to get him in the in the zone. You know what I'm saying?
Christine: Woo-Woo him. Yeah.
Em: Speaking of which, I will end on this last section, you know, it's my favorite, and I know it's yours Christine.
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: You wanna give it a shot?
Christine: Is it a bagel bites... Uhh... Hold on.
Em: Bagel bites sound bites, I don't know. Yeah.
Christine: Bagel bites, sound bite. I don't know.
Em: Oh my God, do they play that on the juke box in the end 'cause...
Christine: No, but I just sing it. And everyone says, please stop.
Em: Well, yes, many have investigated the Longfellow's Wayside Inn including Bagel Bites, and they investigated it in season 11 and Christine, the reason I said earlier, I know you know this place is because we have watched this episode many times.
Christine: Wait, really?
Em: So this is Zak's special edition Valentine's day episode that he did.
Christine: [gasp] Oh my God! Of course! Of course.
Em: And they made it the Valentine's day episode because they needed to use Jerusha's storyline, a failed love storyline as the backbone of the romance episode.
Christine: They're ridiculous. He's ridiculous.
Em: I can't imagine going somewhere knowing that, oh, there's a ghost who in theory, allegedly is just so heart-broken and that's all this place is known for. It's haunted by a heart-broken girl. So let's go there for our Valentine's day episode and just really rub it in her face.
Christine: And then let's harass the shit out of her. Yeah, exactly. Let's just rub it in how fucking dead and lonely she is. Wouldn't that be nice?
[laughter]
Em: But especially the dead part. Umm.
Christine: Yeah, especially that. Did you catch that?
Em: So they... And I know you've seen this. I'm just gonna start saying things and you're gonna start jumping on.
Christine: I feel like I'm just gonna hear it and go, oh no, oh no, I've blacked it all out. So go ahead.
Em: The episode starts with him and his ghost adventures crew sitting at a romantic Valentine's day dinner together, acting very uncomfortable about the fact that it's...
Christine: [laughter] It's horrible.
Em: Three men at a table.
Christine: You guys. It's like, no homo, no homo. You guys need to watch it. It's so cringey... I don't even know. Yeah, it's bad.
Em: I will tell you this episode is not scary at all but...
Christine: No. It's ridiculous.
Em: Wow is it easily the most slapstick comedy there's ever been in the ghost adventures world.
Christine: It's honestly the funniest of them not being, not trying to be funny thing I've ever watched. It's really excellent.
Em: It's a bunch of teenage boys literally kinda suddenly saying no homo while also trying to be funny for the camera, and because this...
Christine: It's good.
Em: It's also the most produced episode ever, and by that, I mean like it is the most scripted, fakest shit, episode I've ever seen.
Christine: Okay, I don't really remember the actual content, which is probably why...
[chuckle]
Em: Well, and I'm not talking about the ghost part, but the first 10 minutes of this episode is them sitting in the restaurant, and it's supposed to look like they're at a Valentine's Day dinner in this inn, but keep in mind, they filmed this eight months before, so it was like I don't know, April or it was like June when they filmed this. So it wasn't Valentine's Day. Also, the only way that you ever film a restaurant shot is if you have background actors because there's no way they would get clear audio in an actual busy restaurant.
Christine: Very good point. I had literally never thought of that Em.
Em: It's just people mouthing behind them talking, it's the cleanest audio, all you hear is them. You can't even hear the creaky floors like no, everyone there is a paid actor.
Christine: I'm sure you told me that in the moment, but that would never have even occurred to me Emothy, but I think that's so embarrassing for them.
Em: And they don't even order food. And on top... Because why would you? And on top of that, everything they say is obviously scripted because it sets up the next beat, which is like... First, I don't know who was in charge of this episode, they really went on their fucking own, but this episode also has clips from talk show hosts making fun of Zak Bagans and...
Christine: Wait, really? I don't remember that either.
Em: Chelsea Handler and Joel McHale are like making fun of him.
Christine: Oh yeah!
Em: And when they're all sitting at the table, they're very much talking about these moments to lead into them. It was very odd.
Christine: This is awkward. I feel like there is something where they just didn't know what to do for that episode and they were like, let's do this, or they had a new creative director or... I don't know what happened, I feel like something weird happened.
Em: I feel like a director with a new vision came on, and I feel like the actual Ghost Adventures crew were texting each other behind the scenes being like, this is such bullshit, this is not what we usually do. This is so weird.
Christine: Except I bet Zak said I need to go in a new direction. And everyone else was like, uhh, now he's gonna have to call the shots. I feel like this was his first foray into directing and they were like, okay, I guess we gotta do what he says, he's the star.
Em: Well, so anyway, they're sitting at this dinner together. It's weird to actually see them all lit up. I also like... Another point that they're clearly like, it's all set up is that it's perfectly lit, [laughter] but it's weird to see them not on infrared, it's weird to not see them in night vision for that amount of time.
Christine: True. You get to see all their beautiful, perfections.
Em: Yeah, anyway, so while they're sitting here and they're talking about love and romance, 'cause again, they're setting up the storyline of a failed love.
Christine: Right. Okay.
Em: So they're reminiscing on locations they've been to where other ghosts have been a little risqué or had been touchy-feely or...
Christine: Uh-huh.
Em: So it's just a compilation, they do like a flashback montage and it's just a compilation of Zak saying wildly inappropriate things uhh...
Christine: Great.
Em: To people, which 10 out of 10...
Christine: But like sexually right, like sexually charged, like...
Em: Oh yeah, like one of them is like, there's a ghost who likes to pinch butts, and then he tells one of the tour guides at a previous location like you're the perfect bait, like shit like that. Like it's...
Christine: Ew! God. He's such a fucking creep.
Em: And they show the clips of him being around horny ghosts essentially.
[laughter]
Em: Joel McHale on the soup says that he's hitting on ghosts because he can't get a live one. Yikes.
[laughter]
Christine: Oh God.
Em: Uhh Zak... Then sitting at the table, he wonders if any of the ghosts that have ever seduced him were male, again right after this no homo festival.
Christine: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Em: That he's joined himself into. And then he says this, and he "What if we really emphasized an entire lockdown on romance?"
Christine: [laughter] What is he... He's like going through something, there's no way... He has to be going through something 'cause he's being real weird.
Em: Oh, it gets so bizarro creepy because he says, what if we really emphasize an entire lockdown on romance, again, setting up what this is gonna be about, and Aaron says, oh, let's finally get some action. Yuck.
Christine: Ahh!
Em: And then Zak says that's your Valentine's Day gift. And then they...
Christine: What the fuck?!
Em: And then they agree to compete for Jerusha's affection.
Christine: Gross.
Em: And then, this is how he closes out the scene because this is a fucking scene, let's be clear, and remember these are all paid actors, now that you know this, it makes it even worse because he absolutely just improv'd this in front of people on camera.
Christine: Uh-oh.
Em: He stands up... This is him leaving the conversation with Aaron and Nick. He stands up, he makes everyone else stop eating and he like, interrupts their Valentine's Day date. Again, they are not on dates, they're actors.
Christine: That changes everything.
Em: For the vibe, he's like, I know I just interrupted your Valentine's date, but, and I quote, "There's a spirit here of a woman that is very beautiful, she's gorgeous, that is who my valentine is, that's who I'm gonna hook up with tonight."
Christine: Come on! Jail. Prison. In prison.
Em: Fucking 25 to life. Are you kidding me?
Christine: Go to fucking jail. What are you talking about? Stop it.
Em: The next scene... Oh I forgot, this is where I send you...
Christine: Oh there's a video!
Em: This is where I send you... I know this is going along, but I promise you...
Christine: No, I...
Em: We both know it's so worth it.
Christine: I'm all in.
Em: Okay, Gio's trio. Those are where I send you a picture and a video. Don't worry about the video just yet.
Christine: Okay.
Em: But this picture is what comes up next after he has that whole speech about how he's gonna hook up with Jerusha and he tells the entire restaurant about it, then there's a scene of him pulling a rose out of his own jacket and flirting with the camera.
[laughter]
Christine: This picture... This picture... God help me.
Em: That's all for you Christine.
Christine: That's terrible.
Em: Frame it.
Christine: It's terrible.
Em: Next time, Valentine's Day hits, I'm sending you a card with that picture on it, and I want you to know...
Christine: Honestly, you better. If you don't, I'm actually gonna be really pissed, so...
Em: So then.
Christine: Don't forget.
Em: After that, 'cause that was just cringe-tastic, I moved away from the TV, I went, Oh God...
Christine: You had to.
Em: A historian is around. Zak talks to this historian about the inn, but he doesn't talk to the historian about the inn, he talks to the historian about Jerusha and how fucking horny she probably is.
Christine: This is so sick.
Em: The historian tries to say that Jerusha fell in love with a sailor. He uses the word seaman, and guess what, Zak cannot keep it together.
Christine: I...
Em: He cannot keep it together.
Christine: This is a child. This is a child.
Em: It becomes a bit. It becomes a bit throughout the show that they cannot say the word seaman without laughing.
Christine: I can't... They're literally overgrown...
Em: Like Jerusha you love seaman. That kind of shit.
Christine: I mean they're literally middle schoolers. Come on.
Em: Then he interviews a guy who has had an experience with Jerusha where he felt something like touching his legs. Zak literally is asking him if he's into it, if he...
Christine: Ohh...
Em: And then even says, do you think single men come here because they have a phantom fetish? And then the guy responded not as classy as I would have hoped. He says, "Well, there's an old saying, if you find any given item in a Sears catalog, somebody somewhere will wanna have sex with it." What?
Christine: Hello, there's a saying somewhere in my own intrusive thoughts that I should have kept quiet. [laughter] There's a saying somewhere... Oh wait, no.
Em: A Sears catalog and how people want to bang it.
Christine: That's just my intrusive thought being blurted aloud again. That's lunacy is what that is.
Em: Well, then Zak... It cuts back to the historian. Zak asks what he can do to win this competition against Aaron for Jerusha's affection. How can he charm Jerusha? And this is where I would like you to play that video. The historian says, oh, you could sing to her...
[video playback] [Zak terribly off-key singing "roses, roses blown in the spring of the year" while hitting random piano keys]
[cackles]
Christine: That's the best thing that's ever happened to me. [laughter] If I were a ghost, I'd be like I'm here, I'm here. You got me.
Em: It's like I'm here under duress. Please stop playing. Please stop singing.
Christine: So I don't think that, that didn't play right like through your. No. Okay, well, just FYI, it's literally Zak with no hint of irony playing a, "playing", in quotations, a piano and singing along to sheet music that they show, and he's singing about the spring and it is...
Em: Roses, roses, so...
Christine: Yeah, but it's worse than... Like Em can actually keep a tune somehow. This guy, oofa doofa. And then you can see Aaron then go and wait, is that Zak? And they're in a different room... [laughter] That's really good. I know that was probably produced to you, but man, that's a classic. That's a keeper. I gotta hand it to him.
Em: And imagine you doing that to a woman who is known to play piano. She's the first piano player of the town.
Christine: Like you're the biggest mansplainer that ever lived if you're trying to tell... Like she plays the 'Battle of Prague' and you're like...
[vocalization]
Christine: Hitting keys. I mean that's embarrassing.
Em: Like you with your Mary had a Little Lamb.
Christine: Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't even deign to do that on her piano, but he's just go go, here I come.
Em: He sounded like the nine-year-old who brings the keyboard upstairs.
Christine: He sure did. Actually he is that nine-year-old, especially when he says, oh, do you like seaman? Ha, ha, ha. He's a nine-year-old.
Em: Anyway, here's my love song to you.
Christine: Anyway, I wrote this.
Em: Well, speaking of writing things, here comes the most classic clip of this, which I know you know very well. I'm not even sending you a video 'cause I know you know it so well.
Christine: [gasp]
Em: He says, what if I can't... He talks to the historian again, he says, what if I tried singing and playing music and it didn't work, what would be my next plan of attack to win her over and the historian says, "Oh, you can write her some poetry."
Christine: [gasp] How did I forget about this? I literally, when you said you remember this? I'm like, I actually don't remember. Oh I remember.
Em: So then Zak writes her poetry. Umm and if you have seen this episode, if you've seen the clip, because it goes around all the time online, it is him reciting poetry, uh, that he wrote, and then immediately slipping on ice and getting the wind knocked out of him. And just so we all know what the poem was because he was apparently writing it, he said this to Jerusha. He said, "you are like the sunshine of my eyes, because when I look at you, I'm surprised, your smile glows like snow," and then he said, "Jerusha, your smile glows like a butterfly." Butterflies don't glow my friend, but okay.
Christine: None of that means anything. And then she shoved him and he fell over.
Em: That's what we like to think.
Christine: She said, please stop doing that.
Em: And then just to really like...
Christine: This is where Henry Wadsworth Longfellow was inspired, and you're sitting there writing fucking, you look like a butterfly that glows.
Em: This where Mary had a Little Lamb.
Christine: This is where Mary, the first Mary had the first lamb and you're over here, the audacity is out of control.
Em: This is the place of not just the Black Horse Inn but the Red Horse Inn.
Christine: And he deigned, you deigned. You had the fucking nerve.
Em: And then just to really seal my opinion of him, to practice his flirting for the night before the investigation starts, he decides he's gonna walk around the restaurant and start flirting with some of the guests at the inn and...
Christine: This part I remember really clearly for some reason. It's my favorite part.
Em: My favorite one is the guest who, as soon as he approached her, she literally throws her hands in the air and walks away.
[laughter]
Em: She's literally like, please don't come near me.
Christine: She's like I'm one of the paid actors in the background, the extras, and I don't even wanna be a part of this. I'm sorry.
Em: Apparently, guess what he's quoting to her, he's quoting apparently... I think Shakespeare, but someone also said that he's quoting Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.
Christine: Oh for God's sake.
Em: Blegh. Anyway, before the investigation, he shows off this...
Christine: At least have the fucking strength of your conviction and read your own goddamn poem to people.
Em: Yeah. Be brave about it Zak. You can do it.
Christine: Come on.
Em: Then he shows them... The lockdown is about to happen. He shows what equipment they're gonna use, and he shows off the Spirit Box and he says, and I quote, in a very creepy voice, "I'm gonna take this in with me when I jump in her bed."
Christine: Okay. Wow.
Em: Mm-hmm. Um. And then surprise, surprise. By the end of the episode, he has felt something touch him, and after all that big talk, when I jump in her bed, ha, ha, ha... How do I woo her over? I'm gonna win her and Aaron's not gonna get her. And that's gonna be my Valentine's Day gift ha, ha, ha. He feels something touch him, and the first thing he says is, "I don't want you thinking that I came here for some kind of booty call."
Christine: [gasp]
Em: So he's now playing absolute fuck boy, he's like...
Christine: Now, he's gas-lighting the shit out of her, just like her real lover did. So fuck you, Zak. You're literally just playing this cycle over again.
Em: He even says at... Oh, the worst part too is he even says at one point to Jerusha, "I am your lover, I've come back."
Christine: No!
Em: So now he's like...
Christine: She's not stupid... Like what are you talking about?
Em: Umm, but he... Oh yes, throughout the episode uh the most interesting thing is the spirit box like there a few times, they got EVPs of a woman who says, "they look strong," so maybe she was into it.
Christine: Oh okay. Alright.
Em: Uh when he asks for his name, you hear the name "Zak." Uh when he's sitting on the bed, the Ovilus says, "gentle" and "lay." And then when Zak says, "If I lay down, what are you gonna do to me?" The Ovilus says "tickle."
Christine: Ahh... Run away.
Em: And then he said... Uhh talking about Nick, who is married, he said, what would happen if Nick lay down on the bed and then the Ovilus said "affair."
Christine: [gasp]
Em: You know what, if she's one thing, she's confident.
Christine: She has a voice. She knows what she's saying.
Em: Anyway, so they got some other stuff too, but I just think that was my personal favorite, umm, evidence that they got and... But yeah, so all of a sudden, I don't know, where he's like, well, you don't have to touch me, nothing has to happen. I don't know about that. Blah, blah, blah. He ends by telling Jerusha, "I just wanna see where we go in the next part of life and to see if you can still love on the other side," and then later on reflects on the experience and says, "I visualized a woman leaning over and putting two hands on top of my legs and in a sick, weird way, I was really, really intrigued by it, I felt like I was being teased, and in all honesty, I wanted more... I'm staying in room 9 again tonight and those cameras aren't allowed"... And that's how it ends. Thoughts? Compliments? Concerns?
Christine: No thoughts. No thoughts. Just disappointment.
Em: I feel bad that I spent the last 15 minutes just spoiling the entire episode, but we did need to discuss it and people would have wanted to know what we thought of all that, and it's just the most brazen episode of...
Christine: It's an outrageous... It's outrageous. I don't know, I feel like the thing of... I was intrigued. It's like, first of all, don't act like this is some shock, you've literally been running around all day saying you're gonna fuck a ghost, [laughter] so don't be like, oh, the weirdest thing happen, and I'm intrigued by it. Also...
Em: He literally said earlier in the walk through, he said if something happens, I'm open to it.
Christine: Exactly.
Em: He literally said it.
Christine: So I don't know what's supposed to be so surprising, grody is what I have to say. Also, he's gonna get a fucking incubus situation. I guess maybe he wants that... I don't know.
Em: Well, that's what they were talking about in the dinner part, when they were reflecting on past experiences. They talked about a time where he was touched by maybe an incubus, may be a succubus. Apparently, he doesn't, he didn't know the difference in the episode where it happened, and he kept saying incubus, maybe it was a succubus, but also, we don't know the gender, we don't know who this was.
Christine: Right, true.
Em: Because the only difference between an incubus and a succubus if it's male or female, and we don't... He didn't know, but I guess a lot of people ripped into him saying it was obviously a succubus, but then he countered with, well, how do I know if the ghost seducing me... How do I know if they're male or female.
Christine: Yeah, I mean unless you have an idea, unless you get the knowledge from somewhere, but yeah, who knows.
Em: Anyway...
Christine: It sounds like he's into it.
Em: Anyway, that's one of my favorite topics I think I've covered in a while. That was...
Christine: That was a really good one. That was a really good one. I am honestly really shocked that I didn't see that ending. I'm not shocked 'cause I don't think I paid much attention to where they were in that episode, I was so taken by the horrors of their behavior, umm, but... Wow. Yeah, that was a good episode. Folks, if you need something to make you laugh, that's it.
Em: I know that I just told you everything that happens, but the reason I said I know Christine knows this episode is because her and I have watched it so many times, regardless of knowing what happens, like it's...
Christine: I like yeah...
Em: A great episode for comedy.
Christine: Sometimes I'll be drunk and it'll just be there, 'cause I think Em pulls it up and I'm like, ah my old friend. Umm. It's really delightful.
Em: It was one of those things where it always plays in the background, and I don't think I've ever actually watched it all the way through until this time, and so... But I always know it as the one where he wipes out. And like...
Christine: And the poetry, and then the falling down and the piano and the singing, folk, you need to go watch it, folks. It really is like, it'll lift your spirits.
Em: And we were making fun of the fact that maybe there was a new director on set who was coming up with some real wacky moves, but he made some good calls also...
Christine: Oh yes.
Em: It was a pretty good episode.
Christine: Like entertainment value, up here.
Em: 10 out of 10.
Christine: 10 out of 10.
Em: And you know what, especially since the inn is a house of entertainment, it...
Christine: Listen, they nailed it.
Em: There's layers everywhere, folks.
Christine: Wow. That's so deep. Who would have thought. Nice work.
Em: Thank you.
Christine: Alright, so I have one for you today, this one is a doozy. It's kind of made me feel a little fucked up for the last couple of days, so good luck to all of you. I apologize in advance. As far as content warnings, today we're gonna be discussing racism and rape. Whoo. Here we go.
Em: Oh shit.
Christine: Yeah. Umm. I'm just gonna dive into it. So, first character I'm gonna introduce you to today is named Anthony Broadwater. He was born in Syracuse, New York, where he grew up, the fourth of six brothers, he was known as Tony, he was a very fun person to be around, umm he was a kind of kid who never got in real trouble but was always causing a little bit of mischief. Umm for example, he once got stopped driving down the road with a bunch of other neighborhood kids on the roof of his car, just silly stuff like that, where he was kind of the memorable guy, but not really running in bad circles. Umm he mostly stayed out of trouble. He spent a lot of time in the Boys and Girls Club at a local recreation center. Umm he met a lot of people through Boys and Girls Club that he ended up becoming... He became part of their community and meanwhile his father was working at Syracuse University as a custodian. And Anthony, uhh even though he could have hung out on campus because that's where his dad worked, it felt like Black people were not quite welcome, that's how he felt about it. It was like...
Em: Sure.
Christine: Even though we're in the same community and my dad works there, that's not my place to hang out, I don't feel comfortable, so he didn't spend a whole lot of time there. When Anthony was five, he and his brother, Wade, experienced a pretty major tragedy when they found their mother dead on the couch...
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: Yeah, she had had pneumonia and unfortunately passed away while they were out, and so they found her that way, and because they lost their mother, they ended up living with several different relatives after her death, and umm even though this is a very early and very major trauma for him, he remained very open and kind and fun-loving. He was very popular in high school. He excelled in sports. He was a member of the wrestling team, but when he was 17, a recruiter for the Marine Corps convinced him to leave high school and enlist in the Marines instead, and this was pretty appealing to him because he felt like he wanted to see more of the world, he wanted to grow as a person and better himself. So he agreed. He took the recruiter up on his deal and he boarded a plane from Syracuse, New York to California. So he entered the Marines, he worked hard, he spent time stationed at Camp Pendleton and Twentynine Palms, but at one point, he developed a cyst in his wrist...
Em: Mmm.
Christine: That was really uncomfortable and made it almost impossible for him to properly serve, so he was discharged and granted disability to support himself. And when this happened, he decided he was gonna move back to New York because his father was getting older and also was diagnosed with stomach cancer.
Em: Mmm.
Christine: So he decided to move back to New York to care for his father, and in the fall of 1981, as he was working for a telecommunications company where he would essentially install phones in people's homes, and one day as he is doing his rounds and installing people's phones, he has an encounter that would unknowingly changed his life forever.
Em: Oh sure.
Christine: Yeah. So Alice Sebold is our next character, and it's almost like two separate worlds, two separate people, they have not crossed paths yet. Alice Sebold, she was born in Madison, Wisconsin in 1962. Just a few years... Uhh a few years younger than Anthony. Although she would not, like I said, meet him for a long time. Her parents were both academics, her father had a PhD from Princeton, and she was the second of her parents' two daughters. Alice and her sister, Mary, spent a lot of their childhood caring for their mother who struggled with alcohol use disorder and severe anxiety, um, depending on whether she was in recovery or not. And they also went through quite a lot of trauma in addition to that, in that, their family often had to move for their dad's transition to different universities, new jobs, promotions, and they would basically be like...
Christine: There would be upheaval in the family, in the household, every time they had to move to a new city or state. And as they grew older, Mary started burning out on caretaking for their mom, but Alice, the younger one, kept it up and the two of them became kind of, I don't know the right word, embittered toward each other, maybe just resentful toward one another. They had a very strained relationship. They argued often over extremely small things like this is familiar to me, the definition of a word, semantics, you know that's usually how my brother's and my arguments started. Uhh so I get it, but I think underlying that, usually there's a lot of other issues, so Alice felt very, very, very pressed, she was under a lot of people's shadows. She felt like her academic and intellectual expectations from her family were oppressive, and she felt like she was in her older sister's shadow and her dad meanwhile was a professor and has a PhD and her sister's thriving and she's just feeling completely, like, overshadowed. She once actually said she was happy to be the moron of the family because it was more fun that way, that's how she perceived herself.
Em: Mm. Okay.
Christine: So she was... Umm, her father was working at an Ivy League school by the time that she was applying to colleges and to add on to her umm complex, I guess she did not get accepted to the school where her father taught. So...
Em: I'm sure that just only made her double down on the...
Christine: Right. It's gotta feel bad if you're already feeling insecure about that.
Em: And to make the jokes of like, I'm the town idiot in the house like just...
Christine: Yes, yes. Oh, yeah, there's definitely some stuff, uh, she was dealing with, so she didn't get into the university, so she decided to go to Syracuse University, so now you see how we're kind of crossing...
Em: Which by the way, is still a great fucking school.
Christine: Very good school.
Em: I love the fact that she... I couldn't get into Syracuse.
Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say that. They have a great writing program, I think they're in journalism, they're... That's a really good school. But yeah, her dad has a degree from Princeton and is teaching at an Ivy League, and she gets into Syracuse and is the town moron, so it's like... Everything's relative, I guess. Umm so in 1980, she moved to New York, she moves to attend Syracuse University, and she gets to her freshman year, and at the end of her freshman year, she's walking home alone one night through a pedestrian tunnel in town when she hears footsteps coming up behind her, you know where this is going.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: A man overtook her from behind, wrestled her to the ground, knocked her head repeatedly against the concrete until she stopped struggling.
Em: Ah!
Christine: He then raped her and then beat her and left her alone to fend for herself. She managed to get up and get back to her dorm room where another student saw her injuries and called an ambulance, and at the hospital, she agreed to a rape kit, even though this was before... This was a time before DNA evidence was used in forensics, but eventually it would be... So she went through with the rape kit, uhh her clothes were filthy with mud and leaves, she had a big gash on her nose, there was blood in her urine, it was...
Em: Oh my God.
Christine: It was really, really rough and...
Em: Brutal.
Christine: Very brutal, and when the police arrived at the hospital, they asked her obviously to describe her attacker, and she said he was a young black man around her age with a small and muscular build. Umm this... You know... I feel like... This is sad, but I feel like the wish is like... I'm trying to think of the right word. The ideal mindset I wish I could have with this is like, wow, this is so shocking what I'm about to tell you, but it really doesn't shock me at all...
Em: Let's hear it.
Christine: And so I feel like a lot of the sources were like inexplicably and I'm like, it's perfectly explicable to me, but the police officer doubted Alice's story and put that in the report and said the report, recommended that the report be referred to the inactive file, like just right off the bat.
Em: Uh! Like blood in the urine, face smashed in by concrete. Nothing to see here.
Christine: No, no. Anyway, she's probably lying, it's just so horrifying to me, umm so she went home for summer break, what a fun way to start the summer uhh plagued by a very, very traumatic incident, and then on top of that, the feeling that nothing would be done and nobody cared right.
Em: Yup.
Christine: And so she sort of had her entire world view flipped, which obviously I understand umm she saw violence everywhere, she no longer felt safe, she almost felt like the world was a different color, almost like things just weren't the same.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And her parents, unfortunately, even though, again, not totally surprising, they didn't quite support her in the way that she needed, they didn't really understand how traumatic it had been for her, but she did fall into a pretty severe depression and they tried to convince her to move at least to a smaller college close to home, but she refused. She wanted to stay at Syracuse. She was enrolled in writing classes taught by writers that she admired and she didn't wanna give that up. So she went back, she went back to school in New York for her sophomore year, where Alice's instructors helped her explore and kind of get through her trauma with writing and poetry, and her writing and poetry about dealing with trauma, and then I watched that clip of Zak Bagans playing the dumbest song...
Em: You glow like a butterfly.
Christine: You glow like a butterfly. I'm like oh boy, wow. There really is a spectrum to art, isn't there?
[laughter]
Em: Yes. Yeah.
Christine: Yes. Yes, there is. So she's working through, which is kind of a great... Since her family wasn't supportive, I'm at least glad that her professors were like, hey, let's work through your trauma together, like...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: That's a great thing.
Em: And good for her saying, I'm not going to move back home... I mean some people have to, but for her, I like that she was like, I'm gonna reclaim the space, I'm not gonna get scared out of coming back...
Christine: Exactly, I totally agree, and I kind of like the idea that she recognized my family's not helping me heal, they're not giving me any support that I need...
Em: Yeah, why would I move closer.
Christine: So why would I stay. Right, exactly. So she went back, she's working through a lot of the emotions and the memories of the rape, then we fast-forward to October 5th, 1981, which is, umm I would say probably like a year-ish later, uh, she's walking down the street when she is stopped in her tracks, she sees a young man and she recognizes him, it's her rapist.
Em: Mmm.
Christine: She later wrote, I went through my checklist. Right height. Right build. Something in his posture, and he called out something along the lines of, "Don't I know you from somewhere?"
Em: [gasp]
Christine: And she knew in her heart that that had to be the guy.
Em: Wow.
Christine: So she was absolutely petrified. She walked away without responding and she could hear him laughing behind her. So her immediate...
Em: [gasp] Oh so it was like a joke to him, it wasn't like... I thought he said that genuinely... He genuinely didn't know. Maybe I know you from a party or something, but no, he did it just to absolutely torture her.
Christine: Hold that thought.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So she went to one of our instructors on campus and said, I've just seen this and what do I do? And the instructor says, you have to call in to report, so she rushes to her dorm, she draws a sketch of the man's face and she calls the police. Now, the officer she spoke with, his name was Paul Clapper, and he recognized the man in Alice's description. In fact, he had actually just been speaking to this guy.
Em: What?!
Christine: The alleged attacker was 20-year-old Anthony Broadwater, who had once lived in a neighborhood where this officer Paul used to patrol and incidentally, just shortly before this call came in, Officer Paul Clapper was walking down the street, and uh this guy, Anthony Broadwater recognized him and said, hey, don't I know you from somewhere.
Em: What?
Christine: Okay, basically what happened is Paul was standing directly behind Alice, and Tony Broadwater saw the officer and said, "oh, don't I know you?", because he used to patrol the neighborhood where Anthony and so Alice had already been petrified seeing him thinking this is her attacker, and then he says this, not to her, but he didn't even see her...
Em: The perspective was she thought it might have been.
Christine: The perspective was that she thought he was definitely speaking to her, and she was petrified understandably, and so officer Paul, just the weird speaking of small world right.
Em: I know you accidentally run into the person he was talking to.
Christine: You witnessed that. Yeah, so weird. And so Paul had been standing behind her, she thought Antony was addressing her, but in reality, Anthony hadn't even noticed she was there, but Officer Paul was like, oh, I know that guy from your description, and because nobody ever mentioned the whole line of like, don't I know you from somewhere, uh, he was arrested, and he was brought in and was now suspect number one in a brutal rape case.
Em: Mmm.
Christine: So the police brought Alice in to identify her assailant from a five-man line up, and according to the American Psychology Association, APA, I just wanna add this in here, researchers have reported that mistaken identifications are the leading cause of wrongful conviction, and in a 2008 analysis of 200 convictions later overturned by DNA evidence, which is way more accurate, nearly 80% of these overturned convictions included at least one mistaken eyewitness. So essentially, witness testimony has fucked over a lot of people. So there was at the time, at least no regulated research-based procedure for a line-up, you know how when you watch SVU...
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And they're like, you can't say anything and all this, those rules were not in place yet...
Em: Okay.
Christine: And there was no real regulation, and so basically a line up at a police station was just operated however the individual department wanted it to...
Em: Okay.
Christine: So there was not really much like... Let's just say a lot of room for error. So they bring in these five guys and Anthony was number four. Alice identified her attacker as number five, which is already odd because she actually did see Anthony in the street, she had seen him and she had even sketched his face, but in the line up, she actually did not recognize him and instead implicated a totally different guy.
Em: Oh, weird. Okay.
Christine: So according to a form Alice signed, confirming the identification, Anthony Broadwater was not the man who attacked her because she had not identified him...
Em: Mmm.
Christine: But the assistant district attorney, Gail Uebelhoer, let's say for Uebelhoer. Gail... ADA Gail...
Em: Big G.
Christine: The big G shocked Anthony and his lawyer later that day by deciding to present a case against him to a grand jury.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Even though he was literally not identified in the line up.
Em: She just believed a victim.
Christine: She just said, I bet you he did it, I think that was him.
Em: Oh wow, she just went off her full ass gut. Well, she just went got me a hunch.
Christine: I guess, but also... Well, they have the photo. The drawing that she drew, maybe the drawing looked like a really good match to Anthony, I don't know, I don't know what the thought process...
Em: And Gail was like we're not letting him get away.
Christine: Maybe that. Yeah, yeah, I don't totally know, but what was even more shocking as a grand jury gave a go ahead to proceed with the case against Anthony with like we're saying now, seemingly no evidence except like a sketch.
Em: Wow.
Christine: So at that moment, unbeknownst to him, Anthony fell into a waking nightmare that would last decades.
Em: Decades.
Christine: Yeah. Unfortunately. As the case proceeded, Anthony couldn't remember where he had been or what he was doing when Alice was raped months earlier, I don't think if someone gave me a random day, month, even if I looked at my calendar, I don't know what I was doing.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Unless I looked at my iPhone and it gave me a...
Em: A picture memory. Yeah.
Christine: A picture. Right, right. Which obviously did not exist back then, so as the case proceeded, he was unclear where he had been, but he told investigators, I know I wasn't doing that, so he's like, I'm innocent, but I can't answer where I was or what I was up to that day specifically. So that that's already kind of a kick for him, like a... What do you call it? A bad sign, I don't know.
Em: Bad sign.
Christine: Meanwhile, Alice was being coached to believe that Anthony was the man who raped her, right... Because they're building this case and they're like, we need you to understand that is the guy who did it. Like you got it right the first time. That's definitely him. And so she's getting coached into what to say, what to think, and witnesses to the event said that Alice, on top of that, didn't really have any support from her family. What else is new? When she...
Em: So she's totally on her own. She can't even... She doesn't even know her left from her right.
Christine: Right. She's basically kind of floundering and she's already been through this traumatic ordeal, then she believes she's... That now she's wrapped up in this legal system and these attorneys are telling her what to think, what to feel, and she doesn't really have any other sounding board. Right, so it's not like... I don't know. She didn't have that support system. Umm. When people, when she updated her family about the case, it was as if they didn't... She described it as like, they just didn't connect to her or what had been done to her, like... They just didn't really seem to care that much. Umm at the trial itself, her father actually sat out in the lobby reading a book most of the time, and her mother actually never came to the trial...
Em: Like a beyond... I don't even know what the right word is.
Christine: Just like neglectful toward... Emotionally neglectful. I don't know, it's just... It's really fucking sad. It's really sad.
Em: It's like, that's just like perfect recipe for me to never talk to you again.
Christine: Right, right.
Em: Well, you can fuck right off.
Christine: Or just for a very codependent fucked up relationship. I don't know which way it would go, but... So later, Alice wrote, quote, "My own father, who has spent his life working with young people, confessed to me that he did not understand how I could have been raped if I didn't want to be."
Em: What?
Christine: Mm.
Em: Ca-Can you say that again?
Christine: "My own father, who has spent his life working with young people, confessed to me that he did not understand how I could have been raped if I didn't want to be."
Em: Death.
Christine: It's a toughie. This is a toughie. Yeah. And as we can probably see, guess who she turned to instead for support and guidance, the big G, ADA Gail.
Em: Of course. The only person looking out for her.
Christine: Exactly. ADA Gail wants to nail this guy. Wants to get justice, like obviously very misguided justice because spoiler alert, this is not Anthony.
Em: Oof.
Christine: But essentially, she's the only one vouching for her, like championing her, and of course, she's gonna turn to her for guidance like, what else is she gonna do? And Gail and the investigators essentially became her moral support, her champions, but Gail unfortunately, uh, prioritized this whole trial over actually helping Alice, because Gail lied to Alice saying that Anthony had asked his friend in jail to stand next to him and stare Alice down in an attempt to intimidate her, uh which is not true. Basically, she's just trying to instill fear...
Em: Sure.
Christine: In, in her and say he had this plan, he's bringing his friend, which by the way, like a man who's in jail doesn't get to like go... This is in the line up by the way, I'm so sorry, forgot to specify that.
Em: Oh, okay.
Christine: Basically what they're saying is, he brought his friend in jail to the line-up to stand next to him.
Em: Oh, okay.
Christine: And that's why she picked number five instead of number four.
Em: Okay. Interesting.
Christine: It's bullshit. It's not even true. That's not how line-ups work, right, you can't just be like, oh, my friend in jail wants to come to the line-up. Can he come? Like what? That's not how that works. Maybe...
Em: I have an extra ticket if you wanna come on in.
Christine: Right? It's bizarre. And it's like... What, so they gave him a field trip pass, a hall pass from jail to come...
Em: An immersive experience.
Christine: An immersive experience of a line-up. Yeah, it's so odd. And so she made up this lie, right, and of course, it's not like they even... It's not like somebody in a line-up who's a potential suspect even decides where they stand, that's just...
Em: Right.
Christine: And also the fucking mirror, they don't see you anyway, so it's like, oh, they were staring you down and intimidating you, and that's why you were shaken, and that's why the ID was wrong. You know. And so it's just all a bunch of bullshit. And she told Alice, of course, you chose the wrong one. He and his attorney worked to make sure you never have a chance to select the right guy.
Em: Like he was in makeup or something.
Christine: Yes, right. It's like, what does that even mean? But she was, I guess so convincing that Alice started to believe it, and according to Gail, Anthony's friend also looked just like Anthony, and that's why it was so confusing that she misrepresented, she misread this guy for this guy because they looked so alike, and that's why Anthony had chosen him to come to the line up to fool Alice. Okay. Whatever.
Em: What a web of explanation.
Christine: What a web.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, you can't even begin to untangle that like that... Where did you even start, that's... It's lunacy. I tell you.
Em: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine: It's just pure lunacy. So, to make matters worse, Anthony wasn't only... Wasn't... It's ike a double negative. Not only was Anthony not friends with this guy who was number five... Right? He'd never met this guy. So just like ever... So just to clarify for everybody, who was like, well, maybe it... Maybe that's how it works at this police station. No. Turns out, Anthony Broadwater literally never met that guy in his life and didn't know him, so...
Em: Okay.
Christine: That theory or that big fat lie from Gail is out the window.
Em: Man, Gail is messy.
Christine: Gail is messy and it's pissing me off because this young woman is looking to her for guidance, for support, for somebody who believes her and cares, and Gail is using that vulnerability to just get her case won. It's so fucked up to...
Em: Yeah, it's like she's got a real ax to grind. She doesn't care how it happens.
Christine: Yeah. And she's like, I know what'll work, I'll use the weakest link here who is leaning on me.
Em: Mm-hmm. The one who's 100% vulnerable...
Christine: Exactly.
Em: And relying on me.
Christine: And she's my chess piece and I'm gonna use her. It's really like, I'm sure it happens all the time, but it's just so blatant and twisted that it really pisses me off. Umm, so, I mean this is probably pretty clear by now, but Anthony did not plant anyone in the line-up, not that he even could have, but he did not plant anyone in the line up to intimidate Alice, but the case still went to trial.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So Anthony's defense team thought a bench trial would be the best chance at exoneration and that's where the verdict is determined by a judge. Not a jury.
Em: Sure.
Christine: So they were thinking, of course, a jury is gonna be biased, likely to be all white, and uh the defense already knew the objects of a young black man being accused of raping a young White college student with an affluent background.
Em: Right.
Christine: Seen it time and time again, this trope, don't even need to go there, but hopefully you all know the history of that dynamic.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And it was also mentioned multiple times in the case and trial that Alice had been a virgin when she was attacked...
Em: Oh just makes things worse.
Christine: Which obviously not relevant because rape is rape. It doesn't matter whether your virgin or not, but also they used it as sort of a value system.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: They were saying, of course, this is a virtue of... They weren't saying it outright, but they knew people would take it as a virtue, something...
Em: Or that he stole something from her on top of it all. Yeah.
Christine: Exactly. It's like she's more innocent because of that, they use that... They knew what they were doing, right? They use that to their advantage in the case, and it came up again and again, and on the stand, Alice was questioned about the fact that she identified a different man in the line-up, she identified number five, even though Anthony was number four. And she said on the stand, five did look at me almost in a way as if he knew me, even though I realized you really can't see through the mirror. I don't know, I was very scared, but I picked five basically because he was looking at me and his features are very much like number four.
Em: Oh weird.
Christine: So basically she's kind of repeating the story that Gail gave her without outright saying Gail told me that he brought in a friend.
Em: Right.
Christine: She's like, oh, this guy was just staring directly at me and intimidating me, and he looked just like number four, which is what Gail told her, so she basically perpetuated that lie not knowing that it was a lie, and she was asked if she was absolutely sure, that Anthony was her real assailant, and she said she could not be certain.
Em: Wow. She is really like almost trying to help him at this point of like I don't know.
Christine: At this point, she's just being honest, right? She's like, "I can't be 100% sure." She said, "No, I am absolutely not." Or sorry. She said, "No, I am not absolutely sure. It was between four and five, but I picked five because he was looking at me." Uh, so...
Em: Which is like such an arbitrary decision.
Christine: Arbitrary.
Em: Like I... Like some... If I... If this were an episode of Law and Order, SVU, they would say that this case is getting thrown out.
Christine: Yeah. Mistrial. [laughter]
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And it... It's, it's, yeah. It's pretty shocking. The racial disparity in the courtroom, of course, was very obvious. Umm, Anthony's defense pointed out that Anthony was the only person in the room who was not white.
Em: Ooh. Great.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Talk about an uphill legal battle. In a story on the case, the New York Times reported studies have shown that roughly a third of eyewitness identifications are incorrect. And that when the defendant and the witness are not the same race, the witness is 50% more likely to be mistaken.
Em: Mm. Yuck.
Christine: So it's harder if they're someone of the... Of a different race to be certain of their features of what you saw, uh, 50% more likely to be mistaken. Uh, eyewitness ID. Just... It's just crazy. Gail, however, the ADA, insisted that Anthony and the man Alice identified, looked nearly identical, but it was later considered racial bias that just assumed all black men look alike, you know.
Em: Of course.
Christine: On the stand, Anthony maintained his innocence, of course. He insisted he had never once encountered Alice and was addressing Officer Clapper the day she thought he spoke to her, and the officer said, "Yeah, that's true. I was behind her, and, uh, he was talking to me." So that has finally come out and you'd think, "Oh, okay. All this gets cleared up, but no."
Em: Right.
Christine: Uh, of course not. He does go on though. He's trying to... Trying to fight for, for himself. He says, "What about these scars?" He has two scars on his face. He has a chipped tooth, and they're extremely distinct features. And he says, "Why weren't those mentioned in any of the descriptions, if I was her attacker?" And surely he thought if she could positively identify him from previous encounters, she would've remembered those very obvious markings on him.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Especially when she sketched a drawing of him for the police. So a forensic hair analyst testified that a pubic hair discovered when the hospital collected a rape kit from Alice, was consistent with a pubic hair taken from Anthony. And there, this is all junk science. This is bunk science. Okay? This hair, matching hairs to hairs. That's not how this works. Umm, you can get DNA off of hair, but this was several years before DNA was first used in a trial. So...
Em: Okay.
Christine: It just was not here. It's just bunk science. There's no real way to actually say these two pubic hairs, you know, come from the same person.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Because they might just look the same and have the same texture. That doesn't make it...
Em: Okay, got it.
Christine: 100% certain that this hair comes from that person. But they accepted it as admissible evidence. So they said, "Yep, that we found his hair." During a recess, the judge spoke personally with Alice, and he had four daughters. He asked her about her life, her upbringing, her father's profession, and it would later be reported that he was basically acting fatherly toward Alice, right? Like he kind of... He felt for her. Umm, and there are no reports on the judge asking Anthony any questions about his family or his upbringing. So clearly he's already making up his mind here. After just two days of trial, the judge declared Anthony guilty and sentenced him to 8-25 years in prison for the rape.
Em: Wow.
Christine: This is all because Anthony walked down the street one day and said hi to someone he recognized. Like that's how quickly it unraveled, and it's just the scariest thought, you know?
Em: And it's just... It's a terrifying thought that it could happen to anyone. Especially the more marginalized you are.
Christine: Exactly.
Em: That like just doing nothing at all.
Christine: Mm-Hmm.
Em: That you could... It could, it could be today that your life changes.
Christine: And if it flies in the face of all those arguments, like, well, crime rate, it's like Skittles Hoodie walking down the street in the middle of the day.
Em: Oh.
Christine: Come on, come on. So Anthony, of course, was numb with shock. Umm, his friends and family couldn't believe it. They knew he was innocent and were so confident that they hadn't even like gone to the trial 'cause it's two days. And they were like, "Oh, like, there's no way." Like they... He has nothing to do with this. So when they found out that he had been, uh, sentenced to jail, they were shocked.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Uh, of course he appealed the decision that was denied. Umm, Alice was never informed of his appeal, and she was determined to move on with her life and leave the rape and the trial behind her. So basically, once that was done and dusted, she kind of wanted to just move on. In prison, Anthony would face traumatic violence. Umm, he was targeted because of his status as a sex offender. Uh, he said, quote, "I would try to prevent some incident by asking, Hey, who's the head of the Latin Kings? Who's the head of the Aryan Nation? Listen, they need to read this." Basically he was asking the gangs at the various prisons he was transferred into to read his court and appeal documents and, and hope that somebody would sense the bias in the trial and conclude he was innocent. But...
Em: Wow. He was really doing work even on the inside. Just...
Christine: He was. He was like grassroots doing it. Yeah.
Em: Yeah. Very grassroots.
Christine: Yeah. He's like, "Where's the head of the Latin Kings? I'm doing a project right now. It's like...
Em: Which I love. That like, did he not get his like ass beat up by like all...
Christine: Oh, he sure did.
Em: Oh, he did? Okay. Oh, I was like, "This is so bold." But also that goes to show like how desperately he wanted it. It's like, "Beat the shit out of me. I don't care. I just need to know."
Christine: He's like, "I, I need to prove my innocence." And he apparently once protected himself with a baking tray in the prison kitchen while his close friend was murdered next to him.
Em: [gasp]
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Oh, no.
Christine: Just a very, very traumatic, traumatic time. Finally, an Imam, uh, who's someone who's... Who leads prayers in Islam, read his appeal documents, which he had been trying to get everyone to read. And he read, he read this aloud to other men, and they started approaching Anthony with sympathy, agreeing, "You know what? It looks like you don't belong in prison." Meanwhile, on the outside, Alice was still struggling with her trauma. After graduation, she lived in low-income housing. She began using heroin. She was really struggling to regain some normalcy in her life. Then in 1989, she was teaching a composition class at a college, and she published an article in the, in the Times about rape.
Em: Mm-Hmm.
Christine: Oprah Winfrey caught onto this and invited Alice on...
Em: What?
Christine: Onto her show for an episode focused on rape and assault. And at the same time, Anthony's first parole hearing was coming up. Umm, of course he maintained his innocence, but his parole was denied, and he was sent back to prison.
Em: Of course.
Christine: Two years later, he was up for parole again. But the parole board insisted he could not be considered rehabilitated unless he accepted guilt for the crime he had committed. And he would not accept the guilt... He would not...
Em: Jesus.
Christine: Proclaim his guilt.
Em: That's a sticky fucking situation.
Christine: Right. 'Cause he didn't fucking do it. And so he's up for parole again. Two years later, again, denied. Two years after that, the parole board addressed Anthony's previous statements of innocence and asked if he had changed his mind about saying he had done it. He said, "Well, ma'am, the last time I answered that question, I was hit with 24 months. I'm afraid to say anything."
Em: Yeah, fair enough.
Christine: Understandably. He had been rejected from further sex offender counseling programs because he refused to acknowledge his alleged guilt. And the programs required admitting guilt, which makes some sense, right? If you're trying to...
Em: If you actually did something.
Christine: Right. If you're trying to rehabilitate someone who's an actual sex offender, then maybe, but like, that's not what was happening. Uh, so parole required completion of those programs. So he's stuck. He's just stuck. His parole was denied for a third time, and eventually he declined parole opportunities from the start, from the jump because he knew nothing would change unless he admitted guilt.
Em: Right.
Christine: An... Anthony's brothers tragically didn't stay in touch with him. Only an aunt occasionally wrote him a letter or two. Uh, but he was pretty much out of touch with his family. Meanwhile, Alice enrolled in a Master's program, and she eventually wrote a memoir called Lucky. And this was a memoir of her life and rape. It was published in 1999 with a pretty quiet reception. It didn't really make waves, but in 2002, Alice published her most acclaimed work, a little book called The Lovely Bones.
Em: Oh shit!
Christine: Mm-Hmm.
Em: I did not put those two things together up until this.
Christine: I mean, I never read it, so I don't... I never watched.
Em: I never read it, but I it's a book I know the title too. I... [laughter]
Christine: It sure is. I remember everyone reading it and being disturbed in seventh grade. So that book, uh, the Lovely Bones, uh, it's about a girl who was raped and murdered and observes her family and killer from the afterlife.
Em: Hmm.
Christine: The book was hugely successful, and it popularized Alice as an author and subsequently had her previous book, Lucky, reprinted and...
Em: Okay.
Christine: Once it's reprinted, it's selling a million copies. Umm, and then ADA Gail, uh, apparently like to go speak with book clubs, uh...
Em: Oh shit.
Christine: To promote book sales and share Alice's story. Like she was just like...
Em: Of course.
Christine: A character in this whole thing. Yikes.
Em: She really needed attention somewhere, didn't she? [laughter]
Christine: Some, some... Somebody wasn't giving her what she needed, I think is what it sounds like. [laughter]
Em: Yeah. It sounds like that to me too.
Christine: Yeah. So the memoir, uh, referred to Anthony by a pseudonym. And 16 years and seven months after his imprisonment, Anthony reached his conditional release date, and he was freed. Oh.
Em: Oh, my God.
Christine: He said...
Em: 16 years.
Christine: 16 years and seven months.
Em: So 17 years.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Em: Wow.
Christine: He said, "You don't think you'll do it, but I did what everybody does. I knelt down and I kissed that ground." I said, "Lord, I'm free and I'm going to stay free for the rest of my life."
Em: Until you fucking say hi to your friend again. Like it's like...
Christine: Em, you like you nailed it because...
Em: Shut up.
Christine: Anthony. No, no, no. It doesn't happen again. But that's...
Christine: Oh my God.
Christine: That's the fear, though. Like, he doesn't feel free, right? 'Cause he is like, first of all, he's still a sex offender, registered sex offender, so it's impossible for him to find work. He lived with a cousin whose mom had written him letters in prison, the aunt I mentioned, and shoveled snow from people's driveways for money. Umm, and then he met a woman named Elizabeth who worked as a roofer, and Anthony gave her his case papers to look over. And she did. She read everything about his case, and, uh, when she told him that she believed in his innocence, he started crying.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And, uh, what a meet-cute because they began dating and...
Em: Oh, wow.
Christine: Working together to clear Anthony's name. So, of course, he's still haunted by this crime he didn't commit. He has flashbacks from prison. He has nightmares. Umm, he starts therapy, but he avoids bringing up the true cause of his trauma because he's scared to even go there, that people will think he did it, will it'll come... He doesn't even wanna talk about it. He's afraid that it'll happen again.
Em: Sure. I would be.
Christine: Uh, so he basically... Yeah. Yeah. Like why would you wanna bring that up now? You know. He was also afraid to have a female therapist because he was worried that if they felt uncomfortable or unsafe, then like something bad would happen, or if he actually got to the root of his trauma, that the therapist would judge him or think he did it. Or who knows, even contact the police. Uh, I mean...
Em: Also like he can't just say like, "Oh, well, you know, I didn't do it." Like, no, no one is gonna believe you.
Christine: Exactly. Like why would that work?
Em: So...
Christine: Exactly. Like what proof do you have that anyone is gonna believe you? So he took night shifts in factories because he wanted, this is so sad, because he wanted to have an alibi at nighttime.
Em: Oh no.
Christine: Like he wanted a constant alibi at nighttime, uh, because violent crimes often occur at night. And he was like, "I'm not playing that game anymore." In fact, police did once knock on his door to question him about an 18-year-old woman who was murdered in her apartment in Syracuse. And thank God for Anthony. He was on camera at work. So he had that out by the...
Em: So it actually... Unfortunately.
Christine: He had built in. Yes. It's so sad.
Em: That's so sad though. Like he ends up proving him, right?
Christine: Him right. Yeah. Yeah. And like just how traumatic would that be for them to show up and be like, "We wanna question you in the case of a murder." It's like, "Is this a fucking joke?" Like just doesn't end. Umm, so thankfully he was ruled out as a suspect on that, and it's just so sad. He and Elizabeth, umm, even though they were in love, they decided not to have children even though they potentially wanted them because Anthony was afraid that, uh, his past would, you know, taint them with a social bias and he didn't want them to go through with that.
Christine: Yeah.
Christine: Or go through life with that. Meanwhile, a 2009 film adaptation of The Lovely Bones, uh, directed by Peter Jackson and starring a young Saoirse Ronan was...
Em: Mm-Hmm.
Christine: A success. And Stanley Tucci received an Academy Award nomination for his performance as the killer. And after that film was such a big hit in 2010, talks began to adapt her other book, Lucky, into a film.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So producer Lori Parker began tackling the story and the script, but after two years of preliminary research and working on the first part of the script, she got to the legal proceedings. And as she's reviewing all of these papers, this doubt begins to creep in, and she's like...
Em: She's like, "I don't even know how to write this without having to explain a few things."
Christine: Yes. Exactly."
Em: Hmm.
Christine: She's like, "Something is missing. I'm missing something." So she contacts ADA Gail, umm, and she wanted to understand why the trial proceeded despite such a lack of evidence. She's like, "I must be missing something here." And Gail repeated. No, no.
Em: No, no. You've got it all right there.
Christine: Oh, it's right in front of you. It's so obvious. [laughter] Yeah. Do you wanna come to the book club that I'm hosting later? Yeah.
Em: Oh.
Christine: So Gail, of course, repeats her version of events where she claims that Anthony brought in a friend in the lineup to throw Alice off, uh, which is a detail that actually Alice had included in Lucky. But Lori still didn't buy that story. She felt like something was wrong. She had a creeping feeling. And, umm, she had actually been sexually assaulted herself, which is why she was so drawn to this story, you know.
Em: Oh. It was personal.
Christine: And yeah. And so she contemplated when she had once thought she had seen her assailant in the library, and she was sure of it, and she said it was an out-of-body experience. It was a sort of terror that teleports you back to the original trauma.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And she had spent half an hour in terror before she finally moved to leave, got another look at the man, and it turns out it was not her attacker after all. So she's seeing this exact scenario kind of playing out in these court documents, and she's getting a sinking feeling, umm, that this guy might not have been Alice's attacker.
Em: You know, she was sitting at home at one point and it all came to a crux and she was like, please don't let me be right. Please don't let me be right.
Christine: I know. I know.
Em: You don't. She doesn't want to be the person who has to announce to the world that this man was not taken care of.
Christine: Yeah, it's a big and that and that this person who's tried to move past this trauma for so long...
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Didn't... It-It's even worse. Like she ended up putting the wrong guy in jail. You know, it's just a lot, a lot. So she continued to do more research on the case until her heart was no longer in the project. She couldn't write the script from an objective standpoint, uh, and the project fell through. So another producer decided to adapt lucky. But once again, this script writer, Karen Moncrief also began to feel uneasy. She was watching young black actors audition for the role of the rapist.
Em: That's yikes.
Christine: And she just felt like this is not it. Eventually, an actor named Adrian Walters was actually offered the role, and he went home and prayed over the opportunity. And he saw a photo of Anthony, the man that he would be portraying. And Adrian said he was heartbroken by Anthony's kind eyes. He thought Anthony looked like someone he could have grown up with. And one day while praying over whether to accept the role, he heard something on the TV about a young black person being killed by police officers. And he said, that was a moment where I got the sign I needed from God saying, No, you can't do this role. This will not be of service to people who look like you.
Em: Wow.
Christine: And I know I have goosecam. He told Karen why he was denying the role. And she decided, you know what, I'm bowing out. I can't tell this story like this.
Em: So now two people.
Christine: So she bowed out of this storyline and instead adapted it to be a white man as the rapist.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Maybe that will like take away some of this like bad thinking feeling. So the project proceeded. But in 2021, the man who was financing this movie apparently also began to get a bad feeling about the project. And he hired former sheriff turned private investigator Dan Myers to look into the case. And Dan kind of got in the weeds. He spoke with Officer Paul Clapper, who informed him of the lineup controversy and the misidentification. And Officer Paul, all these years later thought perhaps the wrong man had gone to prison. And Dan, this investigator later said, I got the impression that he had been dying to tell someone for quite a long time, like, they got the wrong man.
Em: Yikes.
Christine: So Dan located Anthony approached him one day told him, Hey, this is a potential thing that's happening. Anthony, he had known about the memoir. Because Elizabeth, his partner had read it and told him a bit about it, but he could never bring himself to read it.
Em: Sure.
Christine: Obviously, like, I don't expect that he would. So he told Dan that all of the trial, the accusations, all of it was wrong. He said he insisted he was innocent. And Dan introduced him to several people who had that feeling that maybe he was innocent. And so finally, he had a team of people around him who actually believed him were willing to fight for him.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So after years of suffering, Dan had this new defense team, they're determined to prove his innocence. And it turned out that the hair analysis used to prosecute Anthony was no longer considered acceptable in trials. The FBI acknowledged it was a flawed practice to rely on hair analysis, and could not be relied on. And so after reviewing that, along with the evidence about the botched lineup, and the way Gail was coaching Alice, umm the judge on the case vacated Anthony's sentence on November 22, 2021.
Em: Wow.
Christine: And when he did this, Anthony gasped, went over and began to weep.
Em: Duh. I mean, come on.
Christine: I know. I know. So powerful. He at this point was no longer considered guilty. He was no longer considered a sex offender. All those burdens they had placed on the wrong guy were being removed. He was now 61 years old.
Em: Oh.
Christine: Yeah, he was finally exonerated of the crime he never committed 40 years ago. 40. So when this news broke, of course, the angle was on Alice as a famous author, right? More than Anthony and his struggles. And uh, there's honestly not much about Anthony beyond what we know from this case, because most of the articles focus on Alice completely, and just kind of Anthony sort of written off. Umm, eight days later, after this news breaks, Alice, who's being of course, hounded by paparazzi over the scandal, sent an apology to Anthony's defense team for Anthony to read before posting it online. And so the apology, in part, read as follows, "I am sorry, most of all, for the fact that the life you could have led was unjustly robbed from you. And I know that no apology can change what happened to you and never will. My goal in 1982 was justice, certainly not to forever and irreparably alter a young man's life by the very crime that had altered mine."
Em: Mm.
Christine: And so she posted that, and pretty immediately it received quite a bit of criticism for being kind of in the passive voice, whereas most people believed Alice should take more direct responsibility for what she had done to Anthony. Umm, but Anthony took it in stride. All along, he believed that she had known about his appeals and his parole attempts, but now he was learning she'd never been told that he was trying to appeal it, that he was trying to reverse the sentence.
Em: Wow.
Christine: She had no idea. She had no idea that he'd been going through this legal battle for years. And so when he learned that, it helped Anthony forgive her. And in an interview with the New Yorker, he said, I thank the good Lord I made it to a point where I'm strong enough mentally to say, hey, it was the court. It was the system. It's not the victim's fault.
Em: That's such a mental strength.
Christine: A big strength to have. I'm in awe of that.
Em: I could not have that kind of fortitude.
Christine: Absolutely not. I hope I never need to, you know? But the news of Anthony's innocence shifted focus again and again, away from Anthony and Alice. It became a talking point for rape denialists who didn't seem to care about Anthony at all. They just wanted to use this as a talking point to support their belief that men are often accused of rape falsely and that women lie about being raped. And they question whether Alice was ever raped at all. But of course, people are now clamoring on and on that rape isn't a thing. But meanwhile, they're not even touching on the blatant racism that uh, had colored this case so badly and so thoroughly. Women now were worried that the case would be used to discredit all survivors of rape. And meanwhile, some defended Alice completely, saying, just totally disregarding Anthony and the racism and just saying Alice had nothing to do with it. She's a victim in all this. But then others argued it was possible to acknowledge that Alice had, of course, that things aren't just black and white, so to speak, but that she had suffered a very horrific and traumatic rape, but also that then Anthony had suffered a horror as well as a result of it. Do you know what I mean?
Em: Oh totally.
Christine: Like both things can be true. Like she can have had this terrible experience and then the wrong man in prison for it. And I don't see why people have such a hard time accepting that both of those things can be true.
Em: I mean, I can't imagine I've said it before, but I can't imagine anything worse than being wrongfully convicted for something.
Christine: So scary.
Em: Like I mean, he was just walking down the street one day and, you know, flash forward to a year later and he is like hiding behind a baking tray watching his friend die, like because he's trapped in prison and nobody's listening to him. He's getting beaten up because he just wants help. And he's painted into corners where he has to admit guilt if he even wants a chance at parole.
Christine: Yes.
Em: I mean, like he is living a full blown nightmare. And it was. Because the bias of the courts, so.
Christine: Right. And I don't think any of the two invalidate that the other one had a traumatic experience. Like, I don't think.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: One's the victim and one's not, you know. Umm. It's just so so messed. It's just so much shit interwoven in this story. So it was undeniable, obviously, that racism allowed a grand jury to accept a case without any real evidence whatsoever. Racism supported officers and district attorneys in pursuing it. Racism allowed a judge to condemn Anthony to prison without even really speaking to him. Umm, a GoFundMe raised nearly one hundred seventy thousand dollars to support Anthony, who lived with his wife, Elizabeth, in a house with broken windows that they had covered with tarps because of the harsh New York winters they couldn't afford to. You know, I mean, again, he was a sex offender, registered sex offender. He wasn't able to get a job. And so finally, you know, he's getting that reversed. He's no longer on the sex offender list. And this was just a start to rebuild the life he never got to build. So this is how recent this was in February 2023. So just about a year ago, as we record this, he settled a lawsuit against the state of New York for five point five million dollars.
Christine: And Alice said in a statement on the settlement, no amount of money can erase the injustices Mr. Broadwater suffered. But the settlement now officially acknowledges them. So at the very least, you know, there's a bit of closure there, I suppose. And hopefully he can at least. Support himself, you know, I mean, he's in his 60s now, like, why should he have to go get a fucking job?
Em: I mean, that's another part of like the. For there to be criticism about whether or not he suffered, I mean, his life was taken away.
Christine: Exactly, exactly. So arguments, of course, are still waged online daily asking, like, who's to blame for all this? Many condemn Alice full stop. Others put the blame on the judicial system who took on the case and coached Alice and neglected to involve her in any of the appeals, which usually they they would contact you if your attacker or your rapist were.
Em: On top of all that, from the very beginning of this incident... I mean, her own parents weren't there for her, like friends weren't there for her, nobody was helping her. So like she also didn't have a lot of people to lean on, to if she had more people to even advise her or be there for her, like she might have made different decisions, she might have been given different guidance. So like I blame the courts, but I also blame like from the very beginning. If we're getting like really into it, we're blaming like the patriarchy or purity culture or whatever would have caused her parents to not fucking give a shit that their own kid was brutally raped. Like from the very beginning, she didn't have help and she just had to run with whatever she had.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So, I think from the very beginning, all the way through, no system was set in place to be helpful for her.
Christine: No, no. And it's almost like the second somebody finally reached out a hand and said, hey, I'll help you through this. Like they had ulterior motives.
Em: And that wasn't her fault. She was just happy someone cared.
Christine: And I will say like I can see the other side of like to flippantly kind of just believe like, okay, well, I guess I picked the right guy. He's going to jail and move on. Like I can see why people are mad about that. Like I, I can see why people would be mad that a young woman, a young white woman just kind of believes that she just happened to pick the wrong guy.
Em: Sure.
Christine: Like, I don't know. In my opinion, I would have looking back, wish she would have spoken up more about how unsure she was. But, you know, again, like she's being also fed information and she's being lied to.
Em: She also did say, I mean, she was saying like, I didn't know between four or five, I just picked five because he looked at her. So she openly said, I don't know.
Christine: Yeah. She did say she could not be a hundred percent sure. So yeah, in that case, it's like.
Em: Yeah. I mean, there's no... It sounds like the only person whose opinion like really matters is Anthony's and he seems to have taken it with grace. So yeah.
Christine: Yeah. He seems to have been able to forgive, which is very powerful. Umm. Of course, there's a lot of criticism, I think, rightfully so on Gail, who continued to support Alice by affirming the false lineup story that was told in Lucky.
Em: Oof.
Christine: And she continued to promote that narrative, even though she made it up. And now it's in a book. And she's like, yeah, that's real. Anthony said that he believes Alice's apologies are genuine and that he has accepted them. And when he first read the apology Alice wrote, he was emotional and later said it comes sincerely from her heart. She knowingly admits what happened. I accept her apology. In an interview, he said that he hoped one day she would ask to meet with him.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Wow. That would be powerful. Anthony told The New Yorker, we both went through the fire. You see movies about rape and the young lady is scrubbing herself in the shower over and over. And I'm saying to myself, damn, I feel the same way. Will it ever be gone from my memory, my mind, my thoughts? No. And it's not going to be gone for her either.
Em: Mmm.
Christine: Oh, that's chilling. That's like just so powerful.
Em: What a I mean, I guess it's always in you. People always saw the kindness in his eyes. But to have so much empathy is...
Christine: So much empathy. I mean, it sounds like he was from day one. Just a bright person, happy, bright, optimistic person who saw the glass half full, even though his friend was fucking murdered next to him. And he like lost 40 years of his life. It's just crazy. But oh, quick, quick update. I just found last night a headline from Syracuse.com that HBO is making a two part feature on the exoneration of Syracuse's Anthony Broadwater and Alice Siebold's rape. So they're currently in the works. We'll see what happens with that.
Em: Wow.
Christine: But that should be on HBO at some point. And that is of last month. So yeah, we'll see. We'll see. It's a doozy.
Em: Wow.
Christine: My bad.
Em: I don't know what to say. But you did a good job.
Christine: Bye, let's just say bye.
Em: Bye. What are we going to talk about? In the After Hours?
Christine: Let's let's think of something more lighthearted.
Em: Let's pick something worse. Actually.
Christine: Let's pick something. Let's I don't think we can find one. Let's maybe what about something paranormal this time?
Em: Okay. We'll figure it out.
Christine: In the next 10 seconds.
Em: Next 10 seconds. If you enjoyed the first half of this, where you had a lot of fun, and then you also enjoyed the second half where you learned something, but it was very sad. Check it, check out having a third experience with us on Patreon.
Christine: Yeah, maybe, maybe it'll just make everything worse. Who knows?
Em: Who knows? Maybe we'll talk about Zak Bagans. Maybe we'll talk about Mary Had a Little Lamb. Maybe we will try to turn the energy around. We shall see. You never know. And.
Christine: Unless unless you're Patreon, that's.
Em: Why.
Christine: We.
Em: Drink.