EP 375 Joann's Haberdashery and Ghost Logic
TOPICS: THE MERCHANT’S HOUSE, RUBY FRANKE/8 PASSENGERS PT. 1
The Merchant’s House in Manhattan
Photo taken at the Merchant’s House in the mirror. Shown on HauntTV’s World’s Scariest Hauntings Ep #5.
Some of the ornate plaster work in the Marchant’s House
The small statue of a saint that Christine found in her garden.
Ruby Franke, her husband, and their children.
It's episode 375 and we've got a choose your own adventure of reasons to drink this week. Today Em brings us the holy grail of haunted houses, the Merchant's House in Manhattan. Then Christine takes us to Utah and into the world of mommy vloggers to kick off her two-parter on Ruby Franke/8 Passengers. Tune in next week and we'll hopefully have all our teeth and no creepy garden statues... and that's why we drink!
Can you believe we wrote a second book!? AND that you can already pre-order it?? Go to http://bit.ly/HRANextStop to pre-order your copy today!
Transcript
[intro music]
Em Schulz: Here she is the most beautiful girl in the world. Just kidding. It's, uh, it's Christine and me. How are you?
Christine Schiefer: Who could it be? Which one of us is the pageant queen?
Em Schulz: Pretty. The pretty little girl. It's me. [laughter]
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, it might as well be, 'cause when we hopped on, you said, you look pretty for an ugly person. Well, you said you look pretty. Then you paused. And then I said, well, wait till you hear about my day. And you said, well, I was gonna call you ugly, but I guess I won't. Which I think you thought was a nicer thing to do. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I was just trying to, you know, keep, keep the love alive, keep you on your toes, and then you said, oh, I'm actually having a bad day. And I went, oh, well, we'll save it for tomorrow. But, um.
Christine Schiefer: It's not even like a bad well.
Em Schulz: What? Gosh.
Christine Schiefer: It's just, it's just interesting. Anyway, why do you drink this week? I'm gonna let you go first.
Em Schulz: Okay. That actually is probably, wow. We're also starting real hot. It hasn't even been two minutes. Usually we do 15 minutes of forgetting to do our job first.
Christine Schiefer: Usually. Nobody, nobody knows what's, yeah, I'm gonna eat my chocolate orange. You tell me why you drink.
Em Schulz: Okay, great.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm not gonna eat it. I'm, I'm gonna mute it so everyone's not mad at me, but, but I'm gonna eat it while the mic is muted.
Em Schulz: Okay. Wait, wait, wait. Before you, before you bite it. Before you bite it. 'cause I'm gonna need you to, um, be my hype up background support audio ready. The reason I drink is because we wrote another book.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa, whoa. Whoa.
Em Schulz: How do we... Hang on. What was it? Hang on. [cricket sounds] What was that?
Christine Schiefer: Crickets. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Oh shit. [laughter] I can't hear the sound. I just have to roll my...
Christine Schiefer: No, it's perfect. Leave it. It's perfect. It's perfect.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: Don't change it.
Em Schulz: Well, I know we did a a PSA in front of the episodes right now, but I know people also skip through those sometimes. I also skip through ads. I understand. But I just wanted to make sure everybody knows. We wrote another book and.
Christine Schiefer: We did. And we should probably sprinkle it out through our stories too. For the people who skip the intro. We'll just like, scream it.
Em Schulz: Oh, we'll just be like, we wrote another book. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Anytime. We're like, oh, I wrote, uh, this person wrote a book about it. Hey, we wrote a book, didn't we?
Em Schulz: Oh, yeah. [laughter] I'll just add a random note in.
Christine Schiefer: What good segue.
Em Schulz: Fun fact about books, even though we're not talking about books at all. Um.
Christine Schiefer: That's right.
Em Schulz: No, we wrote another book, but just before you skipped through this, uh, we wanted to say, first of all, I can't believe we wrote a second book. I can't believe we wrote a first book, but.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think anyone can believe it.
Em Schulz: I know. And, um, it was very, very hard. And I drink because we can finally talk about it. And it was very hard. It's not easy to write a book. Everyone that's ever done a talk show and said it was not easy was telling the truth. And, um, I think one time...
Christine Schiefer: Really? I thought it was super easy.
Em Schulz: Well, remember that one time we, we were on, we did an interview on some, like news outlet. And they were like, how was the process? And I literally said, "Not good. I hated it." [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Terrible, terrible. You were like, it's the worst thing I've ever done.
Em Schulz: It's like it's the most... I was like, it's the most fun I never wanna have again. Um, and, uh.
Christine Schiefer: I actually, I just wanna say I'm super proud of this one. I was super proud of our first one, obviously, but this one, like, I read it and I was like, man, we, like, I think personally we leveled up.
Em Schulz: I think we did too.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like even funnier than the first one. I mean, not to like toot our own horn, but I... I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of it. And the cover's really fun and cool. Um, and it's on pre-order right now.
Em Schulz: It is. So the reason I'm bringing it up again and why it's so crucial right now to tell you all about it is because we, um, are not the experts here. But please trust us that we've heard from those who are experts, that numbers wise, it works out much better for us, uh, if we get pre-orders versus orders when the book is on shelves. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: And so if you are so inclined, we would love if you could pre-order it instead of wait until September when it comes out.
Christine Schiefer: Don't make us beg.
Em Schulz: I'm not trying to beg. I just want everyone to be on the same page. And, uh, if you see us...
Christine Schiefer: I'm gonna start begging.
Em Schulz: If... [laughter] Only halfway through this episode, Christine will already be desperate. But, um.
Christine Schiefer: Nobody's even answered, but I'm just already upset. I'm like, please, please.
Em Schulz: [laughter] No, I, uh, I only mentioned it because I personally, I didn't know this. And if I were to ever do a book, even like an audio book, I, I never pre-ordered. It never occurred to me.
Christine Schiefer: Well.
Em Schulz: So.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well, welcome to the club. I listen to a lot of podcasts. So anytime a podcaster writes a book, they talk about this. But basically all the pre-orders count toward your first week of sales.
Em Schulz: Mm.
Christine Schiefer: So when the book is released, all the months of sales count toward the first week. So it feels a little like an unbalanced, but that's the same for every book. So essentially that's how you end up in the rankings, is all the pre-orders count toward that first week. So that first week of release is when we find out like, did people order it? Is it like popular? You know? So, um, it is a huge help, uh, to pre-order the book. And you can do that. Um, it's on our website. Uh, we also have a, a bitly bit.ly/hranextstop. That's a little spoiler for the title.
Em Schulz: Next stop. Yeah, we please. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Next stop.
Em Schulz: We, um, we just wanted to, I wanted my reason that I drink, first of all, it is a real reason why I drink. I'm so glad we can finally talk about it. And, because I feel like there's been a few times where like, I feel just run ragged and I could not tell people why. So. Um, so there's that.
Christine Schiefer: It's hard. Or you can just go to our website.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You can find it there.
Em Schulz: It's also in our show notes, we're gonna put the link in our show notes too. So you can just put...
Christine Schiefer: We're gonna put it everywhere. We won't...
Em Schulz: Everywhere.
Christine Schiefer: You won't be able to avoid it.
Em Schulz: Anyway I didn't mean for this to come off as such, like a intense PSA, but I know myself well enough that if it wasn't at the forefront of my mind right now, I wouldn't remember until we were done recording. And I just wanted everybody to know. So, um, I drink because it's finally done. We can finally talk about it. Oh. And my TV decided to change into a Target ad, so that's why I am now sitting in the red dark.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's nice.
Em Schulz: Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Red dark.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: The deep. Um, well anyway, while this ad plays out on my YouTube light, can you please tell me, Christine, why you drink?
Christine Schiefer: You don't have YouTube pre, what does the matter with you like get YouTube premium, like a normal person?
Em Schulz: I do. I do. It's, it's, this is RJ's old. There it is. It's RJ's old TV and he wasn't on it. And I still just have never si-signed into my own account. It's a whole thing.
Christine Schiefer: So you're just in his account? [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm just in his account and he every...
Christine Schiefer: Tell him to grow up and get a fucking premium account stat.
Em Schulz: Every day he probably looks at his own YouTube search history and it just says beige background. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Is that what you do? You play like beige. I was like, do you have like animal, like a wildlife scene? Like what's playing?
Em Schulz: No, I just need like a, a basic, there's no, I'm still in an apartment, so there's no ceiling lights, there's no real lights anywhere. So I just have to work with what I have. And he left the TV.
Christine Schiefer: It's like your own ring light.
Em Schulz: Yeah. And also because I have glasses with the, the ring light is it, it, so this ended up working out better 'cause it's kind of angled away from my face and all that. So in theory it's a good idea until all of a sudden Target wants to tell me I should go shopping again there. So anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're like, I know you just got home from Target, but we have some more stuff you might like.
[laughter]
Em Schulz: It's so evil. Um, anyway...
Christine Schiefer: It's so evil.
Em Schulz: Christine, why do you drink? You tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Well. Okay. I mean, happily, I, here's the thing. I have been like stacking my reason. Like I've been like, oh, here's a good reason. And then I'm like, oh, here's another good reason. And then...
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: I need you to know Em we have not recorded since March 18th.
Em Schulz: Woo!
Christine Schiefer: So I'm like, wow. We have like three weeks worth of stuff that has happened that I would like to address, or not even like to address, but I just wanna say it. Um, so I'm gonna say it in just like a listicle format and like, you do not need to maybe don't react or don't respond until we're at the end.
Em Schulz: It's done. Sure.
Christine Schiefer: And then you can choose... Choose your own adventure if there's anything you wanna elaborate on, but...
Em Schulz: Oh my God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I'm just gonna have to like, just blurt this list out because, um.
Em Schulz: I already know a few that are gonna be on there. Um, but I'm excited to hear you say them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. You sure do. I think you might, you might know the first one, which, um, was that I drove us directly and off the highway into a snowbank. Okay. That's number one. Uh, the second one is, um, oh by the way, us, I mean Em, Eva, uh, uh, Eva's partner Rachel, and me and I drove us off the highway, spun us out. Anyway, it was a whole thing. Um, second, uh, we went to Salem. I went for the first time ever. Em and I got a couple's aura reading and learned so much. And we stayed in the most haunted building in Salem. That's two. Number three... This was, by the way, four days, within four days of our last time recording. So that's like how long ago this list has been in, um, creation.
Em Schulz: And within that. And the Salem was within four days of you crashing us into a snowbank.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, it was a day after. Yeah. So, exactly. [laughter] So literally 24 hours. Um, then, uh, one day Blaise was like, oh, I'm gonna step out for a bit. I don't, uh, the gym. Like my Jujitsu gym is closed. And I was like, oh, where are you off to? And he's like, oh, I'm getting a tattoo. His first tattoo ever.
Em Schulz: [gasp] He is. Okay. It's, uh, keep going.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's of a, uh, of a Chupacabra. Okay, we'll get there next. Uh, I went to Columbus, saw Fallout Boy, and someone at the hotel stole my AirPods. And I've been tracking them, uh, and alongside the police have been trying to get them back. That's a whole thing.
Em Schulz: They're in some trouble.
Christine Schiefer: Next I will... [laughter] They, I'm like, I know where you live. Like, I will.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I was like, like Christine knows your blood type. Like you're in trouble.
Christine Schiefer: Like I've already done a check. Like I know who you are. I know your blood type. Exactly. Um, next, uh, Easter morning, I woke up and, uh, suddenly I said, why do I have like 600 emails? Well, it's because I mentioned, uh, my little Etsy store. And they went absolutely haywire. And I have created now an entire business. I have a label printer. I'm like, I've just like, what am I doing? All of a sudden I'm mailing all this shit out. I'm having the best time. So thank you to everybody who has, uh, ordered something and, uh, made my day. So those should be coming to you soon. Next I got home and I realized my prized possession, my Leona diamond and sapphire ring was missing. And I like freaked out and I thought I had left it, like, lost it just in a hotel or on the plane. I mean, you've heard about my fucking AirPods. So I'm like, oh, no. Like, I'm never gonna get that back. I, it doesn't like have a tracker. And so Eva was talking to the venue trying to find it. They were looking everywhere. I called the hotel. Um, and then I just had this like moment where, okay, this ties into my next point, which is that I've started taking psychic classes.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so I was like, oh, there was a whole course on how to find a lost object. So I tried it and I'm sitting there and I'm meditating, and I'm like asking my guides. And they were like, they literally, it was like beeline. I went upstairs, I grabbed my backpack that I travel with. I reached in the side where my water bottle goes, and it was in the bottom of that pocket. And I was like, oh my God, I found it. So I got that back. Um, then, like I said, I started taking psychic courses. It's going really freaky and really well, then I started learning tarot. So every day now I'm pulling tarot cards. I really wanna start learning so I can do real readings for fun for, for my friends. Um, next I was planting my new lilac tree, and I found this creepy statue of a saint in the ground. The day that I asked my, my guides for a sign. Turns out it's, um, I'll send you a picture Em it's really quite upsetting. Uh, and I, I would also like to add that when I pulled this little statuette out of the ground, um, I, it was totally by surprise because we had had our yard completely redone last year. Like it was just dirt before. And so they had like, bulldozed that entire area. So I don't know how this thing ended up, but I just sent it to the group chat Em but I found this like maybe three centimeters below the dirt. Uh, tell me when you see it. We can also post this on Instagram.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: Right. I'm like, what is this tiny thing? And look, they've planted everything there. It's not like it's been sitting. I, I don't know. It's, it's very creepy and unsettling. So then that happened. And of course now I have my own, I've, I've done all these spirit guide exercises. There's a whole Egyptian background, uh, Em knows about. It's a whole thing. Um, then I put, we wrote a book that's like a minor little update within this list. Um, then last night I found out that my, remember how I had started that short story like competition or whatever. Um, so I found out that I made it to the next round.
Em Schulz: Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: Um, and then to celebrate, I started eating some stale, uh, Cabots cheddar popcorn. And I cracked my entire molar in half. And um, this morning I had to go to the emergency dental clinic and uh, they had to take it apart and it went all the way down to the root. So now I need an emergency tooth extraction and, uh, an emergency implant. Not an emergency implant, uh, but a new, an implant of a new molar. It's my back molar. Um, so that's what I'm up to. That was kind of just like a timeline of everything that's happened. So, hello, I'm here now. [laughter] I just like, I needed to just say everything. I couldn't leave it as is. I just had a lot to say. I'm sorry. It's just a lot. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm so glad I mentioned the book before you, because...
Christine Schiefer: I did. I'm too.
Em Schulz: It was gonna get buried.
Christine Schiefer: It was gonna be a foot, footnote. Yeah. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Um, wow. Where to start? Um. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I, I can't, I'm like, oh my, oh I almost...
Em Schulz: Are you in pain currently? How are you eating?
Christine Schiefer: A little bit. It's like a, I'm like, they said just eat on the other side and I can't go get my tooth extracted until Tuesday. So they just put like a...
Em Schulz: Tuesday?
Christine Schiefer: A temporary. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Bitch. It's Wednesday. That's like a whole week.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know.
Em Schulz: What the hell.
Christine Schiefer: And so they put, they put like a temporary, um, sealant over it and they're like, that'll last for a couple weeks. Um, but yeah.
Em Schulz: I don't believe them.
Christine Schiefer: Apparently the whole tooth needs to go.
Em Schulz: I would literally go to a different, I would literally go to a different dentist that day. I'd be like, we're pulling it out immediately. Oh my God. Ah, ah.
Christine Schiefer: I was... It reminded me of the time your mom broke her tooth eating soup.
Em Schulz: And you know what, again, another person who did not react appropriately, because I, she literally pulled it out like soup. And then she pulled it out and was like, oh, here's my tooth. I was like, girl, you have to be kidding me. [laughter] What do you mean? What do you mean?
Christine Schiefer: I texted my brother. Wow. My, my story made it to the next round. He goes, Christine, I'm so proud of you. Congratulations. And I wrote back, what will you do? Literally, this is how quickly it happened. I was like, what do you do if you break your molar off but half it's still like attached?
Em Schulz: [gasp]
Christine Schiefer: And he was like, Um. I don't know. Yeah. They had to like...
Em Schulz: Why are we recording today? Girl, you could have literally said absolutely not.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I almost, I almost texted, but then I was like, oh my God, what if like, they have an opening tomorrow and I have to go in. So I was like, you know what, let's do recording today. Um, anyway, back.
Em Schulz: I feel so bad for you.
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, the tooth is like the l-least of my concerns. Like I just don't even care at this point.
Em Schulz: Beg to differ. Wow.
Christine Schiefer: It doesn't hurt that much. So I'm just over it.
Em Schulz: Okay, great.
Christine Schiefer: And I don't think I'm ever getting my AirPods back 'cause the police don't give a shit, which rightfully so there's bigger fish to fry out there, uh, so to speak. So, you know what? Whatever, it's like I'm just starting to have to let go of certain things. Like my brand new AirPods that cost me $300.
Em Schulz: Like like your teeth. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: And my teeth that cost me, you know...
Em Schulz: Well they cost you, they cost you zero until later. Then they cost a a lot.
Christine Schiefer: Um, precise. Then suddenly wow. Yeah.
Em Schulz: All of a sudden you want your like, return on investment from the tooth fairy. You're like, actually wait a minute.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Wait a minute. I'm like.
Em Schulz: I'd like a refund. I need that. Yeah. Uh.
Christine Schiefer: Give those back. Like, I was just giving them away and now I know like, oh no, those are worth something.
Em Schulz: Or like, since you cracked a tooth in half, technically, do you get money tonight please? Blaise? Tooth fairy.
Christine Schiefer: Well, they didn't give me the other half. So I'm like, well, shit. No, I, oh, they showed me a picture of the X-ray. Oy vey.
Em Schulz: Absolutely not. Uh. Absolutely not.
Christine Schiefer: It was not cute at all. I'll put, I'll tell you that much. And by the way, the popcorn wasn't even good 'cause it was stale. Like it was good a few weeks ago. And I remember eating and being like, it's not even very good. And then I continued to eat it. Ugh... Anyway, you know.
Em Schulz: Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: You know, it's just life, just girly things, you know?
[laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. What, um, and Blaise is getting a tattoo. For those who don't know, Blaise is having a bit of a journey these days and like.
Christine Schiefer: He [laughter] is.
Em Schulz: In, in the best way possible. But like we're actually, Eva and I, when you weren't around, we talked about Blaise, uh, a couple weeks ago. We were like, he is really doing it. Like he is killin it. We were like, we sang his praises for like half of a meal. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Aw. That's nice.
Em Schulz: But he's, he's going through a, I don't know what he's going through if he's going through anything, but he's having some sort of awakening and a, a self-guided journey, I suppose. And, uh.
Christine Schiefer: Listen it really is like he's just doing his jujitsu. Like he...
Em Schulz: He got a haircut, he got all buff.
Christine Schiefer: Paints his nails every. Yeah.
Em Schulz: He paints his nails.
Christine Schiefer: He got all buff. Leona paints his nails every week before Jujitsu's to make sure he has the right, like he, you know, colors. And so he's doing that. And then one day he's never gone a tattoo in his whole life. One day he just said, oh, I'm gonna head out. And I'm like, where are you going? And he is like, oh, I'm getting a tattoo. And I was like, oh, okay. Far be it for me to stop you have fun. And he came back and he had this, um, right here on his arm, this, uh, adorable little chupacabra from the book series that we read with Leona. And so his and her favorite book is, um, is "Don't Eat Me, Chupacabra". And they read it all the time. Uh, and so he got that like on his, on his arm. And do you know what Renee? Renee, I call Renee... What Leona Renee, my child, said the second she saw it, she was like, "that's Chupacabra." And Blaise was like, "yeah, I got it. You know, because it's our favorite book." And she said, "and mommy gets Krampus." And I went, uh oh. [laughter]
Em Schulz: You know what...
Christine Schiefer: And I heard them on the monitor and Blaise went, "yeah, maybe mommy will get Krampus." And I was like, uh, hello. And so now I think I'm destined for that.
Em Schulz: I'm. I'm still searching for the lie. But, um, yeah, it's.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I know, I know. We all knew it was, it's like she knew. She's like, okay, next, next up. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Um, anyway. Well that's lovely. That's beautiful. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That was, you know, it's, it's happening. Things are happening.
Em Schulz: I feel like, um, even though I'm curious about some other things. I feel like our audience will, before we get into things, will wanna hear the snowbank story and your Salem experience.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Oh, oh, oh, okay. Well, I'll just say, uh, the snowbank story, uh, was ridiculous. If you were following us on Instagram that day, we were trying to get from New Hampshire to be, uh, to...
Em Schulz: Beverly.
Christine Schiefer: It's called Beverly, Massachusetts. And, um, we had this car that was, looks like it has four wheel drives. They literally just didn't give us four wheel drive and the rental car. And so, um, we.
Em Schulz: And it was a massive snowstorm.
Christine Schiefer: Shoveled storm, massive, massive snowstorm. 18 inches in, in Vermont where we were. It was bad.
Em Schulz: And that was us, and that was us being, trying to be wise about it. Because after our show...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: The night before, which ends at like midnight, we decided, hey, to beat the snow, let's at least drive halfway tonight. And so at like 3:00 AM we...
Christine Schiefer: We drove halfway into, went to like a fucking random ass hotel on the side of the highway in, uh, New Hampshire.
Em Schulz: New Hampshire.
Christine Schiefer: So we were like, oh, we escaped the worst of the storm. I mean, technically, then we got like 13 inches that day. And Eva shoveled the car out and then goes, Hey, so like, the car is kind of stuck. I'm not getting any traction. So then we went into like, fix it mode, right? And everybody has their own...
Em Schulz: For two and a half hours.
Christine Schiefer: For two and a half hours. Like Eva's partner, Rachel's upstairs boiling pots of water. 'cause they have these like little kitchenettes, it's like a Residence Inn or something. And she comes running down with like b-boiling pots of water and we hand them off like some sort of like crazed, uh, what is it called? Assembly line.
Em Schulz: Assembly line. But it was like...
Christine Schiefer: To like throw it at the tires.
Em Schulz: It was the smallest pot on earth. So, so Rachel would come down just to like pour it on one tire and then have she run up and boil water all over again to get the next tire.
Christine Schiefer: And boil more water.
Em Schulz: And then, like, I was stealing every type of bath mat this place had thinking if we got that...
Christine Schiefer: Em would walk out with like a rubberized rug. And we were like, where did you get that? It's like an industrial rug and Em's like, "the floor of the elevator" [laughter] We were like, this place, we were just like cleaning this place out of all their like corporate supplies that they buy from some weird catalog.
Em Schulz: And, uh, but I was thinking like, if we could get that on top, then maybe we could get the tire to roll off to run off of that instead of...
Christine Schiefer: Bath mats, towels, rugs.
Em Schulz: We literally, we found one of those, like the yellow caution, don't cross here.
Christine Schiefer: Wet floor signs.
Em Schulz: And we were using that as a shovel 'cause it didn't even have a shovel for us to clean up the snow.
Christine Schiefer: Shoveling. Oh yeah. We don't have a shovel. I'm like, you're a liar. We are in New Hampshire.
Em Schulz: And we were all the way in the back of a parking lot. Like to get out of the parking lot would've been like a five minute walk. And so we, it's not like we were just, we had to get our car out of one little parking area and then we would've been fine because the entire hotel, like driveway system, parking lot system...
Christine Schiefer: I think...
Em Schulz: All the way out to the road wasn't even even paved.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that was the worst part is that we repeatedly kept getting stuck. So we had to keep doing these dumb ass like little fix it situations that weren't really doing much. And then eventually we finally got out. We, we had to flag down a tow truck who was like, I don't even tow this hotel's parking lot. And I'm like, yeah, that doesn't surprise me. They don't own a shovel. And he was like, okay, we'll get you out.
Em Schulz: He pulled us out three times.
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: Got stuck again, pulled us out again. Then I'm like, guys, we're on the road. We've made it. I've spun, I spun the car twice on like giant four lane highways. Oops. We are suddenly facing traffic going the wrong direction. I'm like, guys, it's fine. I've, I've got this. And um I got on the road.
Em Schulz: The, the confidence is out of control. [laughter], because...
Christine Schiefer: Em was like...
Em Schulz: The whole time I was, I was like, no, you do not, but okay, okay. You're the one behind the wheel. I'm not gonna say anything.
Christine Schiefer: I listen. I really thought I had something going. And so I finally got us on the highway, we're like coasting. I'm like, okay, we're going. And then all of a sudden there's like a little bump and the car just decides you don't own me anymore. And, um, [laughter], we just start like careening off of the fucking highway. And so there was like a little pole and I was like, I'm just gonna focus on not hitting that fucking pole. [laughter] So we did not hit the pole, thank Christ, but we did like completely plow into the side of the road. Em was like, I'm getting, I, so I kept trying to get us out, which, Em was like not having at all.
Em Schulz: Well, I, okay, to be fair, I know that it's stupid to get out of a car on the side of a highway. I do know that. But I was.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah because I screamed it at you 16 times. Like I'm some sort of...
Em Schulz: No, I've always known that but...
Christine Schiefer: Safety expert.
Em Schulz: [laughter] No, I've always known that. But I still thought it was more worth it... By the way the highway was empty. Like we weren't, like, it wasn't like we almost risked hitting somebody else. It was just us for a long time on the highway. But the car was in a snowbank at like a 45 degree angle. And Christine was in her obsessed, I'm going to fix this situation. [laughter] And I was starting to think if she just pedaled to the metal into a snowbank, the car was gonna topple over on my side and then I wasn't gonna be able to get out. And I was like, fuck this, I'm out of the car. You do whatever you want. I'll just watch from over here where there's no cars coming anyway and, and you, you do whatever. Just burn yourself out because I can't be here anymore. [laughter] And uh.
Christine Schiefer: I literally just screamed like, then get out. And so then Em got out. [laughter],
Em Schulz: I was like, happily goodbye.
Christine Schiefer: Eventually Em got in the back seat and was like, if you're making me sit in the car, I'm sitting in the back. And I'm like, great. So all three of them are crammed in the back. Just like fucking...
Em Schulz: I was like... I'm sitting in the back closest to the window that will be upright so I can be the first one out of the car. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I mean, seriously, you were like, I'm gonna put myself in the safest place I can inside the vehicle. So finally we got a hold of a tow truck and I stopped my persistent revving of the engine 'cause that's all it was. And finally this tow truck came and he gets out and he goes, and we all get out of the car like a clown car. And he's like, like [laughter], there's a lot of you. You're gonna have to stay in the car when we tow you, but buckle up and don't tell anyone. Oops, too late [laughter] So we were like, we don't care. We'll sign our waivers, our safety away. Just take us away from this highway.
Christine Schiefer: So they got us in and then somehow, this was the craziest part, Rachel's back there and is like, oh, there's this, uh, service called like door to door something or other that... So we just called them on a whim, like we're trying to, every rental car place is closed. Eva calls them and is like, can you take us from here to Beverly, Massachusetts? Which is like an hour and a half, two hours away. And they were like, sure. And we were like, when they're like, now. [laughter] It was the wildest part. And so she goes, oh, we'll send Ken. So this man shows up in this big ass car and he is like, "Hey, hop in, hop on in. I've got orange soda for you." It was like our guardian angel on the craziest.
Em Schulz: And we went you got it.
Christine Schiefer: You got it. And the craziest part was I went on to find it later to like write a review or find their phone number. It like does not exist. It's not on Google Maps, it's not on anywhere. It's not on Apple Maps. It's only on Waze. I think I'm like, how none of us would've found that. Like, I don't know, the business didn't exist on Google. So I'm like, Ken was a guardian angel I think because orange soda is my favorite. So he must have just like swooped down from the heavens. I don't know. He got us straight to the venue.
Em Schulz: I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you the... Yeah, we drove directly to the venue. We had to end up holding for like a half an hour for us to even be able to set up for the show. But like the whole time we were there, we were like racing the clock. Like people were already waiting outside of the theater when we pulled up after having this like whole day excursion trying. But I will tell you in, in that car, after doing hours of digging, and by the way, we were not dressed for this kind of snowstorm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. No.
Em Schulz: I was the most California bitch about this. I had, I had like, I had the, the most breathable thin ass sneakers with no socks on.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: In my, for my shoes. They were like Walmart shoes. So it was just, I was just standing in snow for hours. We at some point gave up on the shovels. We were just digging with our hands for hours. I mean we were soaked and sweaty and awful. But that two hour ride in that heated van. Ooh. That was the nap of a lifetime.
Christine Schiefer: Em was so unconscious that I was like, checking your breathing really every few minutes. I was like, are you...
Em Schulz: Not the first time.
Christine Schiefer: Okay? Yeah. And so, I mean, no, definitely not. Um, so anyway, it was just wild. And that, by the way, I just wanna remind everyone that was number one on my list and uh...
Em Schulz: Oh right. [laughter]
Christine Schiefer: Later on there's like, we wrote an entire book, you know, I mean, but this, this was probably the most deserved story. I just knew we would forget to talk about it because it happened three weeks ago.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Um. So I wanted to put it out there. But yeah, we described it's all good.
Em Schulz: And you got to, and you got to have your Salem experience. You were there for a day. We met a lot of people who stopped and said hi to us. That was very lovely. We did a lot of shopping. Oh, Christine and I did so much shopping.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter], we, oh, that was also the same trip that Delta broke half of my suitcase off. And so the wheels just had holes on them. [laughter] So I was like dragging that through the snow. And my suitcase ended up filled with snow and I was like trying to, [laughter] trying to put like all my, I had to like end up pack like you did... You did too like shipping stuff home and I had to like pack another suitcase to bring stuff home. We bought so much cra... Like so much beautiful witchy stuff in Salem. Um, so you...
Em Schulz: I took Christine to my favorite wand place.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: Yes we got a wand.
Em Schulz: I took Christine to my favorite wand place, we got wands, we ate some yummy food. We got a secret tour to a, a haunt attraction that is open currently.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] That was cool.
Em Schulz: Which was fun. Um, anyway, I'm glad I got to be with you during your Salem experience. Um.
Christine Schiefer: I am too. It was like the best way to recover from kind of a traumatic day. So.
Em Schulz: I'm surprised at some point that day we didn't say a hundred times we needed this, we needed this.
Christine Schiefer: We needed this. You know what, I think we just both knew it so clearly that like telepathically that we did not need to say it aloud. I think we would like, we know, we know.
Em Schulz: Well anyway, I think anyway, you win the award, I think...
Christine Schiefer: No. I don't want an award. Please don't give it to me.
Em Schulz: And all... [laughter] It will break like an anvil and hit you in the head. Um.
[laughter]
Christine Schiefer: I will probably break a foot, a toe with it by mistake.
Em Schulz: Uh, and also the the, oh the other reason why I drink is that we have one last show of our tour and then it's over. And so it's very weird that we're about to.
Christine Schiefer: Uh! It's so sad.
Em Schulz: We have spent, it's one thing that I don't think a lot of people realize is that you and me and Eva, we are never in the same room anymore together unless we're on tour. And so now that tour's over it means we're probably not gonna see each other all that much until we're on, on tour in the fall. And so.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Or y'all have to come be groupies roadies for the Beach Too Sandy summer tour, which is apparently how I do things now is I just am always on tour either with you or my brother, which is quite.
Em Schulz: It's sick. I don't know how you do it.
Christine Schiefer: It's sick. It's sick is what it is. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Anyway, go see Christine while I'm relaxing and on vacation. Christine's gonna still be on the road.
Christine Schiefer: Em, Em will probably dragged to like several. We'll see.
Em Schulz: At least I don't have to be on stage. I, you know, I love...
Christine Schiefer: Last time, last time we told someone, we told everyone you'd be in uh, DC at the DC show. That show sold out in like five minutes and I was, and then you had like a whole welcoming committee there. Um, so maybe I'll say you're coming to one of the shows and I won't say which...
Em Schulz: I will be, I'll be at every city.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah there go, you just won't see them because they'll be hiding out in a special section. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I will be, I will be at some of the shows, but I'll, I'll let everyone decide for themselves what, what those are. Um, no, it's, it's such a weird, um, situation. 'cause half of me is like, even though I don't wanna be on stage because of my own issues with that, I get jealous that you're on stage with somebody else. But then at the same time I'm like so happy that I don't have to work. And so I'm like, well, I don't know how I feel. I'm so conflicted here. So.
Christine Schiefer: What a complicated roller coaster of emotions.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: But then. You get a whole fan base anyway. People are coming up to you and making you take photos.
Christine Schiefer: I know, but I feel bad I, at the last one I had to start turning people away 'cause I was like this is.
Christine Schiefer: No, it was amazing. Well, I know you did that, that part sucks...
Em Schulz: 'cause I was like, it's not, I don't want it to be about me. It was you and Xandy. So I, I... It got.
Christine Schiefer: Well, no, no I loved it 'cause I was like, this is great 'cause that's the venue where the bathroom's like across the whole lobby. So Alexander would peek out and be like okay, Em's distracting them. And I would just like run past you to the bathroom. I was like Em has everybody distracted. This is the best setup.
Em Schulz: All right. Hey, well then you are welcome I guess. But, umm...
Christine Schiefer: We're going back to DC improv so you wanna join, let me know.
Em Schulz: I I have I'll always find a reason to go back home, so Yeah, sure. Uh, and my mother will probably be my date again which a lot of people seems to be very excited about so.
Christine Schiefer: I was, I certainly was.
Em Schulz: Okay. Well everyone, you got your 30 minutes in of us talking about nothing related to our podcast.
Christine Schiefer: Ooops.
Em Schulz: I hope you had fun. Umm, and with that...
Christine Schiefer: Hey the book, the book was related to our podcast, sort of.
Em Schulz: The book was related, us going to Salem. I mean, technically it was all a, a toe dip into our show.
Christine Schiefer: I almost killed both hosts of this program and the producer and Rachel.
Em Schulz: And you would've done it with flying colors Christine.
Christine Schiefer: Flying... Yeah flying colors.
Em Schulz: On a bad day I'll wish you did. So I don't know what to tell you.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I know. Umm, oh, what could have been...
Em Schulz: Maybe if you knew, if you knew you were gonna crack your fucking molar the same week everything else happened maybe you would've driven a little faster. I don't know umm...
Christine Schiefer: Honestly, I don't think I could have. I think you saw me and there was no way I could have made it any faster. I was, I was really gunning it.
Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, those are the reasons why we drink. I don't think we've ever had more reasons than a single episode. So please, please, please, on our behalf.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know I, I feel like I feel like I had to cut, I cut a bunch out. They weren't, they didn't make the cut. So Yeah. Folks just drink for, we all have all these crazy reasons, but yes. Everybody drink on our behalf. Drink on your own behalf. We will be joining you.
Em Schulz: Dare I say, this is your weekly reminder to drink some water you thirsty little rats. Yes?
Christine Schiefer: Oh no, I, no, I'm like, drink some vodka but...
Em Schulz: Squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak.
Christine Schiefer: I guess if Em wants you to drink water go for it but I'll be drinking Chardonnay. I don't know. It's my stepdad's birthday so I am making Blaise drive and I'm like let's party.
Em Schulz: It's your reminder to be hydrated. It doesn't have to be, you know, me telling you to get dehydrated. I'm just saying get into the void and you do what you want with that. While you're drinking maybe hydrating. This is where I tell you all about a story. And this is the story of the Merchant's House. And this is different than the Merchant Hotel which we just stayed at in Salem.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was gonna say wow. Perfect. But not the same. Okay.
Em Schulz: The Merchant Hotel which is actually the Joshua Ward house, umm, that was episode girl 59.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] That, that means we had just had like our one year anniversary if you think about it.
Em Schulz: Yes. We had, like, we, we'd fully solidified our friendship around this time. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: And, uh, I maybe a, a redo is an order, but today we are talking about something else merchant wise. So, uh, this is...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: According to the New York Times is one of Manhattan's... Or at one point was called Manhattan's Most Haunted House.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: I don't know if it's still called that but it has been given that shout out. Others have called it the Holy Grail of haunted houses. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: And, uh, I do have clips for you. And by you I also mean Megan to post later for people to enjoy.
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Umm, and I will get to those in a little bit. But let's start in 1832. And in New York City, this is on 4th Street. This is like an exclusive up and coming suburb of New York. Umm, and there's a guy named Joseph Brewster. He built a row house here.
Christine Schiefer: What year are we in?
Em Schulz: 1832.
Christine Schiefer: 1832. Okay.
Em Schulz: And Joseph Brewster, he built a row house made out of brick and apparently marble which I.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh.
Em Schulz: That's a lot of work. And so, but here's the thing, and this is just a random fun fact for everybody, but he was a hatter. And so how on earth did a hatter afford a marble row house in the hub of New York City umm...
Christine Schiefer: Listen, everyone's got a hat back then. I don't know.
Em Schulz: That's what I was gonna say is that we discussed this again you said three weeks ago. So excuse our not remembering totally but we did say in a recent episode that like there was even a ghost who like didn't have a hat and like people freaked out he didn't have a hat or something or...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's true! Yes. It was the ghost in that who came out of the fireplace or whatever the fuck.
Em Schulz: Yeah. People were like, either he had a hat and that impressed people or he didn't have a hat and it concerned everybody more than him being a ghost.
Christine Schiefer: He didn't have a hat. And everyone, everyone like, made a point to mention that he was not wearing a hat. Like it was more.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So he is dead and rude.
Christine Schiefer: Like that ends the game.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, he's dead and like a dick also.
Em Schulz: He's like, uh, not with the social times. Umm, but yeah, in the 1800s hats were a booming business. Umm, this is where...
Christine Schiefer: Do you know why they call them? You probably do, but like a mad hatter.
Em Schulz: So would, would you like to read my next bullet point verbatim, or...
Christine Schiefer: Ah! I was so excited. I was like, I have a fun fact. But then I realized you know more about that whole Alice in Wonderland world than I do.
Em Schulz: Do I? I don't know why you think that.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know why I always think about you but I think it's 'cause of the hookah caterpillar.
Em Schulz: That's the only reason I care about Alice in Wonderland yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I like, in my mind, that's the only connection I have to that book and movie at all. So you're the only tenuous connection I have.
Em Schulz: Thank you. No I am honored. 'cause that's one of my, he is one of my, umm, prized characters. I've, if there's ever...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Very rarely do you find a tchotchke or something of him. So when I do find something I get very excited about it. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, I love that for you.
Em Schulz: So yes, the mad hatter, uh, in the 1800s business was booming but it was also a very dangerous game to be a hatter because especially, umm, the new silk top hat hatters because.
Christine Schiefer: Ha, ha...
Em Schulz: The way that they were felted, the felt had to be stiffened at the time it was stiffened with mercury. And so hatters were at risk for chronic mercury poisoning 'cause they were working with it all the time and inhaling it. And, uh, sufferers dealt with mood changes, irritability, insomnia, memory impairment, emotional sensitivity, tremors, all sorts of problems. Umm, death I assume after the insanity kicked in.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm.
Em Schulz: And umm, that's why a lot of, uh, hatters during that time were considered mad hatters because they were literally going mad as they worked on the hats. And that's where we get The Mad Hatter from Alice in Wonderland 'cause he was wearing a silk felted top hat.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's 100%. That is so, uh, just one of my favorite fun facts.
Em Schulz: Uh, you know, I bet the hatters of the 1800s did not enjoy it like we do today. Or maybe they were so mad.
[overlapping conversation]
Christine Schiefer: I was I was gonna say maybe. Umm, that guy seemed happy on that movie that I watched one time Alice in Wonderland.
Em Schulz: He did. He was smelling colors. He was all over the place.
Christine Schiefer: He was... [laughter] He was having a good time. Umm, yes. Uh, fun facts, just to clarify for everyone. You should know this by now, but, uh, they're not usually fun. So, you know what I get to say fun fact. Even if it's really not enjoyable for, you know, certain parties.
Em Schulz: Well, here's kind of an a side fun fact that is fun because... So do you know the difference between a hatter and a milliner? And do you know the difference between those and a haberdasher?
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: Okay. The only reason I know this is because I had a moment. As we know I have created an apothecary in the troll hole 'cause I could not...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: Take my vitamins unless it was done in a funky, cool way. And to me that means instead of saying I'm taking my vitamins, I say, oh, I'm going to the apothecary. So while I was in that space, I was like, oh, I wanna name other parts of my apartment the things that they used to be. So I was like where... Do I have a haberdashery in here and I just don't know it? Like, what's a haberdashery? And so, umm, anyway, a hat or a hater and a milliner are essentially the same thing. Except hatters worked with men's hats and milliners worked with women's hats.
Christine Schiefer: Oh okay.
Em Schulz: But a haberdasher which is like it's such a weird gray line 'cause I think you could be a hatter, maybe start like a small hattery business and then become a haberdasher later?
Christine Schiefer: Mm.
Em Schulz: Or you could downsize and become a hatter from being a haberdasher. Because uh, a haberdasher is someone who works with men's clothing. I think all clothing but mainly men's clothing umm, and like the fine accessories of that. So like sewing buttons and zippers and like a Joann Fabrics is a haberdashery.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Even though they don't like make stuff really for you?
Em Schulz: It's like, it's like, it's like a, a surplus store for you for your clothing.
Christine Schiefer: Do you go buy the... Oh, so you buy the supplies there?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So would it be like, who would, who would shop there? Like, umm, 'cause I'm assuming fancy men...
Em Schulz: Like a tailor.
Christine Schiefer: Did not make their own clothes. Okay so like a tailor would go.
Em Schulz: A tailor maybe... I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay, okay.
Em Schulz: In today's world if haberdasheries as they're named expanded I feel like they would have kind of made some sort of collaboration with like CVS and been like half haberdashery, half pharmacy/apothecary.
Christine Schiefer: Ohhh, okay. Wow. I had no idea. So it's like bolts of fabric that kind of thing.
Em Schulz: Fabric, sewing utensils, buttons, zippers, ribbons...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Laces.
Christine Schiefer: Why did they call it, why didn't they call it Joann's haberdashery?
Em Schulz: Girl? You said it not me.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: We'll talk to Joann. I'll ask her. Umm, I will say that I...
Christine Schiefer: Joann? Michael?
Em Schulz: Uh, so if you have a sewing kit you do have a mini haberdashery in your home.
Christine Schiefer: I do. It's from CVS. Wait a minute.
Em Schulz: So I told you I thought they might have something going on.
Christine Schiefer: What?
Em Schulz: It's like big pharma but big fabric you know? [laughter] So anyway, I now do call my that where I keep all my hats the hattery on principle umm...
Christine Schiefer: Excellent.
Em Schulz: And milliners did more like, I think like bonnets and things like that. Fun fact again, they were called milliners because most of the fabrics for women's hats came from Milan. And so they were called Milaners and now they're milliners.
Christine Schiefer: Shut up. I did not know. I did not know.
Em Schulz: Look, COVID was a crazy time and I needed to take my vitamins so...
Christine Schiefer: For this reason only. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Okay. Anyway, all that to say this guy was, uh, we don't know if he was a mad hatter. I don't know if he was in the business long enough to actually get serious mercury poisoning, but he was a hatter. He built this house. It was in 1832. And three years later he was like, I'm out and I'm moving and I'm, I don't wanna be here anymore. So I guess the hat business was overwhelmingly good or overwhelmingly bad. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it seems like it was not fulfilling one way or another.
Em Schulz: So he sells his home to a man with a name that just feels like Lemony Snicket wrote it himself. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: This, this guy's name is Seabury Tredwell [laughter] and Seabury is Sea like the ocean. Sea, S-E-A and then bury, Seabury Tredwell.
Christine Schiefer: Is it bury like a body or berry as in like oops all berries?
Em Schulz: I love that bury like a body.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Umm, Sea... So like Seabury sort of.
Em Schulz: Seabury Seabury Tredwell. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: That's the craziest fucking name I've ever heard.
Em Schulz: If he wasn't a rich man in the 1800s no one was, umm, name alone.
Christine Schiefer: That's true.
Em Schulz: And he's a probably evil. He has a secret passageway for sure. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: He has a, he has like a twirly mustache there's no doubt.
Em Schulz: Yes. Yes. I feel like he looked like the monopoly man. He's all about capitalism. There's got, there's no way he's not.
Christine Schiefer: But like the ev... Well you're right. I was gonna say the evil version but then I went, well I guess he is already a pretty evil version um...
[overlapping conversation]
Em Schulz: The monopoly man is not kind to all I'll tell you that.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, certainly not, not me. Anyway.
Em Schulz: So Seabury uh, buys this house and he was a merchant which is how we get Merchant's House. But I don't understand why you would name a house. If you're gonna name a house why would you name it after your profession and not yourself? Like the Seabury Tredwell House. Yes. Right.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean come on. Like the Seabury Tredwell, not even house, like the Seabury Tredwell uh...
Em Schulz: Manor.
Christine Schiefer: Manor, domain. I don't know. There's some better words.
Em Schulz: Estate.
Christine Schiefer: The villa.
Em Schulz: The Seabury Tredwell Estate.
Christine Schiefer: Estate. Now that has some back power behind it. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Well, like to ha... I mean I don't think he knew. Maybe it was like a popular name then. And he didn't know how powerful it would sound later. But like, to not use that name in naming your own home is insane. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, agreed. Maybe he was a mad hatter.
Em Schulz: Maybe. Umm, and so yeah, he called himself, he called it the Merchant's House. Umm, which house too of all things like, so boring. Like get creative and.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: It was this very exquisite house. It had a parlor. It had two kitchens at the time. Yikes. It had servants quarters. And I will, uh, say another fun fact is that the bedrooms were painted oyster white. Now that got me thinking, Christine, just how many shades of white are there? Umm, would you like to venture and guess?
Christine Schiefer: Well, I learned, I learned that eggshell is not a shade of white. It's like the patina of the white. It's like, whether it's gloss, it's like a level of gloss 'cause I thought eggshell white is like a certain shade. Anyway, fun fact, we're full of them today. Umm, how many shades of white paint or just like white anything?
Em Schulz: Paint, paint.
Christine Schiefer: Oh paint okay.
Em Schulz: Shades of white paint. And I did not do at the time of 1835, I thought it'd be more fun to do now.
Christine Schiefer: Just now. Oh 415.
Em Schulz: Okay. You're not that far off. One website had the fucking audacity to tell me over 150,000 shades of white paint exist.
Christine Schiefer: All right.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Relax. Umm, I guess technically if you put one microscopic drop of black in it as we go. Yes. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I guess that's fair. Technically. Yeah.
Em Schulz: But I looked up Pantone 'cause I was like, they're probably a fair, a fair place to start. And I got different answers. But it looked like somewhere between 120 and 400 shades of white exist in Pantone.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was gonna guess like 350. So I'll maybe I'll just I'll just stick with my whatever I said 400 some.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway, that still overwhelms me because in my mind it was like maximum a dozen. So whoops. So Seabury moved into the house with his wife, Eliza, their children and his Irish servants which for some reason were all women. But I think maybe that was common at the time because they needed a place to stay when they were spinsters. I, I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Well, I think people would come from other countries to and but not have much. And so they would have to work, you know, like in jobs like this.
Em Schulz: I think, uh, a few of them came in that way. Others, uh, it seems like they, like this was like their just career. And then other people apparently at one point they had one Irish servant who was a 14-year-old girl. Uh, I don't know her story but apparently all ages and reasons for why they were there...
Christine Schiefer: Mmm.
Em Schulz: Vary. But they were usually Irish women. Umm... Okay. And they were replaced every decade, I guess. They were only good enough for 10 years. And the Tredwells lived in the house for nearly a century. So that's 10. 10. 10. So that's 104 women each. So it's like 400 women have passed through the house I think.
Christine Schiefer: That's like as many Pantone colors.
Em Schulz: I know. And they were all white. I'm sure if they were Irish, maybe, you know, there's a good chance of that. Anyway.
Christine Schiefer: I would think so.
Em Schulz: So according to an 1855 census, uh, the servants at the time there was up to like 21 people living in this house in the 1850s.
Christine Schiefer: Jesus.
Em Schulz: It's giving Duggar.
Christine Schiefer: No thank you.
Em Schulz: And a lot of them were servants but a lot of them were the kids. They had eight kids. And at this point a lot of them were married and I think still either living at the house or still had their like official address at this house. So.
Christine Schiefer: How big is this damn house?
Em Schulz: Pretty darn. Like big enough to not be called a fucking house. Like, I don't know why he called it Merchant's House. [laughter] Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe he was trying to prevent all these people from showing up and they just kept coming. And he's like, it's just a tiny shack. It's a shack. It's a Tredwell shack.
Em Schulz: The the Seabury. The Seabury Shed you know, I feel like he. Oh, they should have called it the Shedwell.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I see now we're talking.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and you know what? You might be onto something 'cause Seabury is known to not be a very kind person. So maybe he really was like, get the fuck out of my very small house. Not despite what you see. It is so small.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that I don't know that's too passive for a mean person, an outwardly mean person would be like, this is the biggest mansion you've ever seen. Get the fuck out.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: He wouldn't try to like, pad his excuses with calling it a shack or, you know.
Em Schulz: Uh, you know, that's a good point. And so it, it was him, his wife. They had eight kids. And their names, their names were Elizabeth, Horace, Mary, Samuel, Phebe, Julia, Sarah, and Gertrude. And Gertrude is kind of the main star of the story. So she was the last one to be born. Fun fact she was the last one to live in the house. Another fun fact. She was the only one to be born and die in the house.
Christine Schiefer: Oh boy. In and out.
Em Schulz: In and out. And she died in the house in, uh, the '30s when she was in her 90s. In the 1930s when she was in her 90s.
Christine Schiefer: 90s okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, but yeah, she like literally slept I think in the bed she was born in. How fucking crazy is that?
Christine Schiefer: That is crazy.
Em Schulz: And then if she died peacefully in her sleep, she was born and died in the exact same spot. How trippy is that?
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That's...
Em Schulz: So, of course she's a fucking ghost here. Like literally her entire life...
Christine Schiefer: Where else...
Em Schulz: Was in this home.
Christine Schiefer: Was she gonna fucking go? Yeah.
Em Schulz: Did she ever go anywhere else? I don't know. Umm, Gertrude, I gotta, you, you gotta feel bad for her 'cause the New York Times, they did an article about her and they described her as "tiny, withered, and hemmed in by ugliness." Yuck. That poor woman.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] What?
Em Schulz: Um. In the same article, they described her style as "beautiful, but museum pieces."
Christine Schiefer: Don't put... Okay. Don't put but next to anything. Even though Em literally said, you look beautiful for an ugly person or whatever. [laughter] Umm, but you know that was out of friendship, not just being nasty.
Em Schulz: Imagine if I was a reporter and I just for no reason without your consent just said...
Christine Schiefer: That's so fucked up.
Em Schulz: You know what I'm gonna write about this. I will say...
Christine Schiefer: They always did that. I dunno why they like would describe people. I mean, it's just fucking rude.
Em Schulz: I will say she was dead at this point. So hopefully she does not know. But, umm, still why are we talking about a dead old little lady about this like this? So yeah, she was hemmed in ugliness and she wore things that should be behind glass in a museum. Yuck. So.
Christine Schiefer: Hemmed in ugliness is the wildest thing I've ever heard.
Em Schulz: Like hemmed in... Like I feel like sewn into ugliness. Like maybe she had a shot.
Christine Schiefer: That's horrifying.
Em Schulz: Wild. And this family they're known like to their, their house to this day has not changed a lot since it, based on how it looked in the 1830s. And that includes their style. So maybe she was already wearing like I don't know if vintage was cool back then, but maybe she was just trying out some vintage pieces. And then the New York Times was like ugh, not the look.
Christine Schiefer: She found like a mercury brimmed hat in the closet from the guy who used to live there and was like I guess I'll wear this.
Em Schulz: Oh. Okay. But that would be a cool story. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: I think so...
Em Schulz: So yeah she was not described as the best looks wise I guess. But she was also known to be a recluse and she never left the house probably 'cause she was so ugly. And she...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Really.
Em Schulz: And she really didn't change much about the house. And she was a kid. So when she died there and she was the last of the Tredwells to live there, umm, the house was kind of described as a time capsule. It had everything from three generations of people. It had the original furniture, it had original books, it had original sketchbooks. So like they had...
Christine Schiefer: Wow.
Em Schulz: Drawn things decades ago. The sketchbooks were there. They had the same clothing, they had the same Bible that even like when she was born, her parents wrote her time of birth into the Bible and it was like just there.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Umm, and after she died a relative, uh, of the family ended up buying out the house. And he wanted to keep it totally as is including all the items where they, where they sat when the family was there. So like they're still sitting exactly where they were.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa.
Em Schulz: They tried to open it as a museum. It was, I guess doing okay. But he was suffering basically when he died, the museum was also like in a bad spot. So in the '50s, '60s, uh, the museum was taken in by the DCNYC which is the Decorator's Club of New York City.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Okay.
Em Schulz: And they are described as the country's oldest professional women's organization of interior designers. They currently have an active Instagram that I crept through. They are still doing the thing good for them...
Christine Schiefer: But they're... I love that they're like keeping up with the times too.
Em Schulz: If they did a TikTok I would watch it. I might like it.
Christine Schiefer: I might even like it. I might even send it to my friend Em.
Em Schulz: I would send it to you for sure. I'd be like, look at them. They're killing it. So in the '60s after they took over this building became the first Manhattan landmark, and a year later it became a national historic landmark. And they ended up getting in touch with an architect from NYU called Joseph Roberto who helped save the building from collapse. And they were able to preserve... Christine. They were able to preserve every single inch of this house, all the way down to the furniture and art on the walls. And so every single thing you see in there perfectly restored. And it, it, I mean it looks as it did in everything is in good condition and...
Christine Schiefer: You know I love that. You know, I love that. And also like, how cool to have a haunted place where the ghosts are like, oh, looks exactly the same. I don't even need to walk through a wall to get to my old bedroom. Like it's all the same.
Em Schulz: Yeah, blueprint theory who? You know.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: However, during the renovations this did exactly what it always does and it disturbed the ghosts in the building.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And ever since then the place has been haunted. Umm, at least that's as far back as we know. I imagine Gertrude who watched probably her whole family be born and die in this house. I'm sure there were ghosts beforehand but, umm...
Christine Schiefer: Or I think so maybe she was just like re reclining until they started the construction.
Em Schulz: Maybe. Yeah. Well, so after construction it, it started happening. People started hearing footsteps in empty rooms. People heard Gertrude's piano playing itself even though it could no longer work.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-mm.
Em Schulz: Umm, they would even hear it outside of the house it was so loud. So when they had closed up, people walking on the side of the street would hear piano just like blaring in there.
Christine Schiefer: Heart and soul. [laughter] I fell in love with you. Oh, hold on. Heart... Let me start over.
Em Schulz: Roses, roses spring of the year...
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Okay. I know we recorded three weeks ago but that I can't, I will never forget. Uh, I'll never forget that clip. And then Megan put it in the fucking TikTok and reel. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Folks if you have not seen that reel of us watching Zak Bagans like singing his like own weird ass love song with a p... And banging on a piano, please go look at it. It's delightful.
Em Schulz: I, umm, yeah, your soul is like a snow globe butterfly.
Christine Schiefer: Roses, roses umm. I mean, it is beautiful.
Em Schulz: So people started hearing her piano playing even from outside as uh, word spread about the spirits. More stories started coming out, especially from that one architect who helped the, the decorators, uh, save the building. He was like, oh, this place is haunted. Like there are some ghosts here. And neighbors started claiming here, here's like, one of the wildest stories is that people who still live, lived nearby after Gertrude died they like still would see her run out of the house. Like multiple neighbors saw this. They were all like, bitch, is she alive? Like, what, how, where I thought she was dead. How did we all just see that?
Christine Schiefer: Why is she running out of the house?
Em Schulz: To shoo out the noisy kids to make them go play somewhere else.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, but so there, were there actual living kids there or no.
Em Schulz: There were kids that were noisy, I guess. And she did what everyone was thinking and ran outta the house and like shooed them away and was like, go play somewhere else.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. She's like, So if you guys won't do it. I guess the dead lady has to do it.
Em Schulz: I'm still needed, I guess. Yeah. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Okay. I thought you meant like she used to do that in life and so it was just repeating like her shooing her own kids out or something. But you're saying like there were other kids outside and she came out to be like Hush.
Em Schulz: Like the neighbors saw her shoo the children away.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Okay.
Em Schulz: And all of them I'm sure took a look at each other being like, we all saw that. Yeah. Like what, what?
Christine Schiefer: And we're never playing on this block again. Right.
Em Schulz: The way I would yank my own kid away from that property and be like, I'm not kidding. Listen to that ghost. Don't go back there because I don't want you to hear that house anymore. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: Like, I don't care about drinking. You do whatever you want, but do not go by that back back by that fucking house.
Em Schulz: Oh. But you know that kid who got shooed away by her then like went to like high school and was like I was one of those kids. I saw her. I saw her. She shooed me away.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. Yeah. I was one of the 4th Avenue seven or whatever... However many there were.
Em Schulz: I was in the Newsies apparently. Yeah. And, uh. Yeah. No, I, you know, I would totally brag about that and I would have like a sick, sick crush. Like it would be so unhealthy the way I would be in love with the person who like had a real encounter the whole town knew about with the ghost.
Christine Schiefer: I thought you meant the old ghost lady. I was like Em we have to dive into that later. Umm, I don't think this is the time. I thought you meant you'd be see, I feel like you and I would be those people who'd be like, yeah, we were there, but we were like down the street getting ice cream from the ice cream truck and we like weren't we were sort of supposed to be there. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Yeah. You just hope that the people who were there don't ever catch wind that you're pretending you were there. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Would just back you up. Yeah... [laughter] I feel like that's for us like we missed it...
Em Schulz: You know I... If I ever heard someone say like, oh no, I was one of the kids I would've been like, I have to date you. I have to I just wanna date you so badly. It wouldn't even matter anything else about them.
Christine Schiefer: You'd be so thirsty to be there. Yeah. No, I, I 100% know that that is true.
Em Schulz: Or I, we would like go in as high schoolers and do the thing that I did in high school and would break into abandoned houses. We would break into the Tred, the Tredwell all the time and I'd be like, you know, one time I dated the guy who got yelled at by her, you know, I would, I would find a way to...
Christine Schiefer: My first kiss.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Oh, I would kiss, I think I would kiss...
Christine Schiefer: Turns out.
Em Schulz: Him, her or them just to have the story.
Christine Schiefer: Turns out he was really in love with the old Lady Ghost. So I never stood a chance.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Uh, it's, anyway, everyone saw her yell at the kids. And uh, on top of that, there is another ghost there thought to be another one of the Tredwell daughters. 'cause remember there was eight kids there. They assume it's one of the Tredwell daughters maybe Gertrude herself and like a younger version of her. But...
Christine Schiefer: Weird.
Em Schulz: The house has a ghost called the Brown lady because she's wearing brown. I feel like we could have named her something else.
Christine Schiefer: Yep.
Em Schulz: Umm, there, there's also a woman in a black gown. And thank God I did not see anyone say black lady...
Christine Schiefer: You can literally say lady in brown. Why would you say Brown Lady? Like lady in brown, lady in white, lady in black, lady in brown.
Em Schulz: I know, I know.
Christine Schiefer: Brown lady.
Em Schulz: Brown lady. And thank God the one in the black gown is not called the Black Lady. There is one in a black gown.
Christine Schiefer: It's probably good. Yeah.
Em Schulz: And there's one in a white gown. Like there, like they just love neutrals.
Christine Schiefer: Love the representation here. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, so there, there's a lot of women in gowns pacing the halls. I maybe it's all the same person who's just trying on different outfits. She still has all the same clothing from back then, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like leave her alone.
Em Schulz: Well, the woman, I'm just gonna say the woman in white, not the white lady. I, I, I'm gonna change the narrative. Umm, the woman in white they think is Elizabeth. And by think they are pretty confident. They very, they actually would say it is definitely Elizabeth because...
Christine Schiefer: Which one... Is that the wife or the daughter?
Em Schulz: So good get, good catch because the wife was Eliza and they had an Elizabeth.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, daughter. Okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: Umm, so woman of white they think is Eliza, sorry, you fucked me up, is Elizabeth, umm, because, uh, they literally, I don't know if they still do it, but for a time the house literally had a binder full of pictures of these people and like a, a charts and everything. So if you saw someone, you could just go...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] No.
Em Schulz: Reference the pictures and see who it was. And so they, this one guy who worked there, his name was Anthony, he said he was sitting on the stairs one time and felt someone coming down the stairs and looked up and Elizabeth was leaning over the stairs staring at him.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And Anthony even said that he felt their eyes connect like that they both knew they saw each other.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. That must be the wildest feeling. 'cause when I saw that ghost at the Whaley House, I did not have any feeling like he knew I or anyone was there.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: So it really is. It must be like a next level jarring to like, realize I see you, they see you, you see me.
Em Schulz: Well, it's one of the, and like yeah. It guarantees that there, at least for you, it guarantees for yourself that it's not a residual thing that it intelligently recognizes you.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes. Ooh.
Em Schulz: And so I guess he looked at the pictures later and he was like, that was absolutely Elizabeth. Another story about Gertrude and why she's still here. It seems that it always ends with like some sort of heartbreak. But she allegedly fell in love with a doctor. One source said medical student, not a doctor. Umm, but his name was Louis Walton. The problem was that he was Catholic and they were Protestant and.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And Seabury Tredwell himself said, my daughter is not gonna be with any Catholic. Absolutely not. You shut that shit down. And so Gertrude ended up having to live in the house for the rest of her life because she didn't wanna be with anyone but Louis. And, uh, she didn't get to, so she just stayed a spinster.
Christine Schiefer: Isn't that sad.
Em Schulz: And interesting at the time, this was around the time period where people started marrying for love and not like, as a transactional thing. And so a lot of them were choosing love instead of like this being a business decision. And, uh, three of the eight children decided that they were not gonna get married at all. So they might have really loved the double income no kid situation. They might have had a good time over there.
Christine Schiefer: Whoa. Yeah. They, they were ahead of their time.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Umm, another fun fact I have is that just to talk about the building one more time. There's a movie in the '40s.
Christine Schiefer: Although would be that, wouldn't that be single income if you're not getting married?
Em Schulz: Oh, you're right. Single income, so kids. They'd be sinks not dinks. That's fine.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Good for you. Good for, good for them.
Em Schulz: In the 1940s there was a movie called The Heiress, which was an adaptation of like a play and a book and all this. But the movie won an Oscar for set design and part of the set was recreations from the Merchant's House.
Christine Schiefer: No way.
Em Schulz: So I don't know if they won any actual awards for the real design, but the movie version of the house got an Oscar. So um.
Christine Schiefer: That says something.
Em Schulz: And in the movie, the story centers around a woman who fell in love with a man that her father forbade her from marrying. So very similar to Gertrude.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] There you go.
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, so back to her. She ended up not marrying anybody 'cause she could not be with Louis. And people speculate that she's still there drowning in her own sorrow. Umm, but it could also be that maybe she just doesn't wanna leave. 'cause this was literally the only place she ever knew.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And also Gertrude is not currently the biggest fan of guests in her home, but that's probably because she was like not much of a social butterfly in life either. So she's probably like, why are all these fucking people in my house?
Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah. And then the second she goes out, they're like, oh, you're so ugly. Like, what, what good happens outside? Nothing.
Em Schulz: Oh my God. I, I, I, yeah. Poor girl.
Christine Schiefer: Poor girl.
Em Schulz: Many people now report, uh, seeing Gertrude, her herself, like as a full-bodied apparition. People have even said that they have been denied entry at the door. So like, I love that she's got boundaries.
Christine Schiefer: Wait, [laughter] she blocks you from coming in. That's great.
Em Schulz: She's like, she Yeah. One group said that a reenactor in period clothing, uh, came up to them, came up to them at the front of the museum and said, oh, the museum's closed for the day. Which it was not. And also nobody dressed like that that was employed there. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Dude. Okay. But the fact that she lied, like she knows it's a museum and she says that the museum is closed today is like, wait, what? So she's like in on it. Like she has her own little plan.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's wild that the...
Christine Schiefer: That's crazy.
Em Schulz: That the ghosts know the, like the updates of the house, which like, you would think.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, my God.
Em Schulz: That's so true. Because in my mind I'm like, the ghosts never know. Or I guess maybe residually, they never know. And that's why the blueprint theory is so important because they need to know how to get around.
Christine Schiefer: They can't see the new doorways. Right. They're just using their own memory of it.
Em Schulz: But at the Merchant House, the one place where they, like, they never touched anything. And so we don't have to worry about the blueprint theory.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: It's the one time the ghosts would actively not acknowledge the blueprint theory and be like, oh, well it's a museum. Now I know how to walk around this new place. It's like, this is the one place where...
Christine Schiefer: Do you know...
Em Schulz: They should have been able to roll with the new updates. And they don't actually have to...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And ignore. Yeah. So do you know if, umm, she actually said "the museum is closed" quote unquote. Or did she say like, get out and they were like, oh.
Em Schulz: That was... Well, I mean they, uh, they, she said the place is closed today. I don't know if she used the word museum, but she did say like...
Christine Schiefer: Mm. So maybe she thought.
Em Schulz: Hours of operation are closed.
Christine Schiefer: So maybe she was like thinking they were there for a new hat or something. Or for whatever, whatever used to happen there. I don't know. Maybe she's like, we're closed today. And also, why are you wearing those weird clothes? Those weird futuristic clothes.
Em Schulz: Well... I know you would think she would be like, oh, maybe I, compared to your current stuff, I guess I do look ugly compared to... Like, like if someone who wears your clothes saw me, obviously... Like someone in a hundred years is gonna see my clothes and be like, that's the fugliest person I've ever seen in my life. So maybe.
Christine Schiefer: I don't think so. A hundred years ago, if we look at people from the '20s, we're all like, oh my god, flappers, I wanna look like them. So a hundred years you might be an icon.
Em Schulz: It would have to be like divisible by 30 or something. 'cause isn't it like every 30 years it repeats. Isn't that the thing?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. A hundred years from now, people think it's all vin-vintage, but we have to go like a middle ground where it's where it's getting made fun of by young people.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Well I do think that she knows it's a museum and we'll get to that in a second with another story.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.
Em Schulz: But I, I think she knows that it's a museum.
Christine Schiefer: That is so crazy.
Em Schulz: Because one time after that, another group of people were stopped by a man in period clothing and he said that you cannot continue on the tour. You have to head back to the front. So, that sounds a little.
Christine Schiefer: Oh. So they, so at least somebody knows. So she probably does too. What the... Do we think it was Ebenezer or whatever his name is?
Em Schulz: Yes. They...
Christine Schiefer: Seabury Kingsworth.
Em Schulz: They later walked past a portrait of Seabury Tredwell and realized it was him and.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. So he and his daughter are like, yep, we work here. They're like, we, we need a new tactic. We need to fake, like, we're one of these futuristic people.
Em Schulz: I like to think they high five when they get more people out of the house, they can just have it to themselves. They're like, uh got another one.
Christine Schiefer: And they're like, nobody knows. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, Seabury, like I said, he is said to be kind of nasty to other people. I mean, he was already very close-minded to his daughter, finding love. He named the Merchant's House, the Merchant's House instead of the Tredwell Shedwell or something. So.
Christine Schiefer: That's the most, that's the most egregious mistake of them all.
Em Schulz: Yeah. He clearly does not have an open mind or open heart. So he is said to be quite nasty to people. [laughter] Umm, and people have sensed a very oppressive and intimidating energy, especially young women. And many people, umm, have been like overcome with panic attacks, distress. Uh, they've fainted in the house. People have seen mist and smelled tobacco and that's kind of assumed to be him. Uh, also in Seabury's room, a medium one time, uh, on an investigation, a medium sensed that something wanted the lights off. And so when she said out loud, "does someone want the lights off?" The entire group saw the closet door shake because something huge banged against the door from the inside.
Christine Schiefer: Ahh!
Em Schulz: And, and there's EVP evidence of it. And it really sounds like someone like threw a shoe at the door.
Christine Schiefer: So it's almost like, do we know now? Do they mean yes or no? Like, that's not very clear. It's just an outburst. Like do they want the lights off or not?
Em Schulz: It was just an outburst. Yeah. It's like.
Christine Schiefer: You're just like, mad.
Em Schulz: We need you to use your words. Listen.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, use your, use your, use your big girl words. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Use your talking skills. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh no. Uh, yeah.
Em Schulz: But it was, it was in his room. It was very aggressive whether or not we know what the answer was. And, uh, even weirder, the employee, Anthony, who also saw Elizabeth on the stairs, he was at this investigation and when he saw the door shake, he wanted to tell his sister right away. So he pulled his phone out in the room and he watched his battery...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: His full battery go, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, and his phone die.
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up.
Em Schulz: He watched the battery...
Christine Schiefer: What do you...
Em Schulz: Drain instantly.
Christine Schiefer: I feel like, I feel like we're like learning a lot about ghosts in this particular, like, from this family. Like they, like, they're teaching us new things.
Em Schulz: And like they know way too damn much about our equipment and stuff like that.
Christine Schiefer: They're like next level. Like, I wonder if they've, I don't know how they figured this all out, but they must have studied up because they're like, oh, I know. He's like, he pulled a phone out. All right, I'll do it. Like, what do they do? They like put their hand through it and it just like depletes. I don't know.
Em Schulz: You know, one of my favorite stories from when I was ghost hunting was that I had to teach a ghost how a phone worked. And...
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: I, I've, so in my mind I'm like, had someone else already.
Christine Schiefer: And you could barely teach a grandparent how a phone works. Like that's too much of a task. That's too much work.
Em Schulz: But how much did they know who taught them? Or like, how come they knew? And the ghost I taught didn't know. You know, like, so.
Christine Schiefer: Exactly. Like maybe somebody taught them like you did.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Or maybe they're just, people are coming in all the time, so they see phones more often and they were like, I, or maybe they weren't even trying to fuck with the phone. Maybe just by being near the phone, they sucked out the energy. You know?
Christine Schiefer: They used the energy. Yeah. Maybe they like realize if they touch that weird thing that people hold, it'll like, stop working. You know? I don't know. Maybe there's some like ghost logic.
Em Schulz: I, I feel like it really could.
Christine Schiefer: Ghost Logic, a new brand by Em and Christine.
Em Schulz: Ghost Logic sounds like a really cool punk clothing store.
Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. TM-TM-TM-TM. Yeah. T motherfucking M.
Em Schulz: I feel like for all we know, they were just trying to like look over his shoulder and see what was going on and accidentally sucked the energy away. But Anthony, the employee, saw it as, oh, you don't get to call anybody. You can't cry for help. They're like, no, it's not what I done.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Sorry. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, also.
Christine Schiefer: You'll never speak to your lover again. Just like my daughter can never speak to her lover again.
Em Schulz: You should be an audio book voiceover artist.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's so funny you mentioned that because, umm, we did write a book and I knew we would find a way in the middle of one of our stories to insert that for the people who sneaky, sneaky, sneaky skip the intro. And by the way, you skipped how I almost killed us all in the snowbank accident. So, you know, at first of all, whose loss is it really? Second of all, we did write a book and now that I'm yelling at you, you're probably not gonna pre-order it, but please do. Uh, you can find it on the internet. So anyway, it's called Haunted Road Atlas: Next Stop. Em thank you so much for that unintended segue that you gave me.
Em Schulz: That was a, uh, maybe it was an intentional plug in you so no. But yeah, pre-orders are very important. And, uh.
Christine Schiefer: But even more impressive.
Em Schulz: You could do that. The link is in our show notes. So thank you so much.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wow. So smooth. Anyway, back to that. Back to this.
Em Schulz: Anyway, here's a picture in Seabury Tredwell's house. Uh, this is into a mirror when no one was standing there.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. Is it coming via text?
Em Schulz: Um. It is, it is sending currently.
Christine Schiefer: In a mirror, you said sorry.
Em Schulz: In a mirror.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, what, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. So, so the person is taking.
Em Schulz: So that's so the, the mirror was empty. They took a picture at an angle to see if they'd catch anything. And then I know it's kind of hard, but the longer you look at it, the more you see a very specific nose, face, eyes...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Em Schulz: You see a necklace a shoul... Like, you see like patterns on the shoulder of.
Christine Schiefer: Ew. It looks like a, an old timey monk look at his hair...
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like with, and then with the robe and the tassels, it looks to me like a, a, a monk.
Em Schulz: And so that picture was taken. Yikes. I hate that. Megan.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. That is so effing creepy.
Em Schulz: Umm, here's the worst part. Uh, another thing about Seabury Tredwell I'm just trying to do all the Seabury stuff at the same time, so we don't have to continue with him anymore after this. Umm, but I am gonna send you a link right now.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: You're gonna keep it open. 'cause throughout the rest of my notes there are multiple time codes I want you to look at. But for now, I want you to go to marker 34:40. And I'm gonna explain to you what happened.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: So for those who are, uh, not Christine, this is a very big shout out to, uh, HauntTV's, World's Scariest Hauntings. They did an episode on the Merchant's House and they talked specifically with someone who investigates there quite a lot. Umm, and the clip, I'm about.
Christine Schiefer: HauntTV. That's cool. Is that like, sorry, is that, sorry, is that a YouTube YouTube channel or is that like a TV, TV.
Em Schulz: I think HauntTV is like a, is like a network. And one of their shows is World's Scariest Hauntings.
Christine Schiefer: Wow, okay. Okay.
Em Schulz: And so what you're going to hear, because the craziest thing about this house, and one of the reasons I think people call it the holy grail, is because their EVPs are out of control clear. Like it's...
Christine Schiefer: Ohh.
Em Schulz: It feels, it sounds like somebody is literally there. You don't have to guess. It's not a creepy whisper. It's not through a spirit box where you hear, chh, chh, chh, chh, chh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: So you're, you're about to hear an EVP and basically they're in Mr. Tredwell's room and they're talking about the piano downstairs that's broken and shouldn't be playing anymore. And they ask Mr. Tredwell, uh, can you play the piano downstairs? Do you know how to play the piano downstairs? And.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. And, and we're at 34:30, right?
Em Schulz: 3440.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I'm sorry. Uh, okay. 34:40. Should I hit play?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
[video playback]
Female Investigator: Did you know how to play the piano, Mr. Tredwell?
EVP: "I Strike the keys in succession..."
Christine Schiefer: What? Wait, okay, I need to listen one more time.
[video playback]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I'm sorry. I misunderstood. I thought this guy, like the host was saying, oh, like, I thought he was saying it first and then the ghost was like copying him. But he's describing what you're about to hear.
Em Schulz: He's describing. Sorry, I think I did a, a few seconds too early, but, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Got it.
Em Schulz: But yeah, so.
Christine Schiefer: It's really, it's really.
Em Schulz: So clear.
Christine Schiefer: Because I thought it was just repeating. Hold on, I'm gonna hear it one more time.
[video playback]
Christine Schiefer: Okay. He's such a dick. He is like, yeah, I know how to play. I I pressed down a key.
Em Schulz: Yeah, he says I strike the key.
Christine Schiefer: Sorry. I guess we should tell people what he said.
Em Schulz: So, uh, Mr. Tredwell, they ask, you know, Mr. Tredwell, can you, do you know how to play the piano downstairs? And then they get an EVP that says, I strike the keys in succession. I don't personally hear in succession, but I do hear, I strike the keys and I hear it so fucking clear.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait, what do you hear?
Em Schulz: I hear I strike the keys and then like a mumbling that I didn't really know. Oh, do you hear in succession?
Christine Schiefer: Hold on.
[video playback]
Christine Schiefer: I do hear in succession.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay, cool. Umm, I just hear, I strike the keys.
Christine Schiefer: I'm curious what people hear.
Em Schulz: So loudly, I think. But anyway.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe also I was primed.
Em Schulz: Sure, but isn't that like the fucking craziest, like it's so clear and weird.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, it's like you can hear the timber of his voice. Like it's not just like, like some creepy sound that you have to try and it's like, oh, that's an old man talking like it's not, Yeah, it's clearly not like the young per person who is speaking. Umm, it's like a completely new voice. And the f... So I thought at first because the ghost hunter guy or whoever that is says, uh, oh, we hear the ghost say, I strike the keys in succession. But like, when I was first listening to it, I thought the ghost was then like mimicking him talking.
Christine Schiefer: Like that's how clear it was. I thought like somehow that he had like mimicked that exact sentence. But no, the ghost said at first. Ooh Em that is unsettling.
Em Schulz: It's so weirdly clear and uh.
Christine Schiefer: It's so clear.
Em Schulz: So anyway, that's Mr. Seabury, Mr. Tredwell. And uh, keep that link open. 'cause in a little bit there's gonna be another thing.
Christine Schiefer: This is so fun. I love this like, interactive part.
Em Schulz: Well, there are other spirits in the house and some of them are former servants, especially in the kitchen. Umm, investigators have.
Christine Schiefer: Well that sucks to stay there.
Em Schulz: I know. To work for life. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Forever.
Em Schulz: Um. For eternity. An investigator asked the spirits their purpose in the house and got an EVP very clearly of someone saying servant and then a medium sense that women were harassed here. I, it does not strike me as surprised at all. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And when they asked if the man who harassed them should be forgiven, the EVP, they got an EVP that said soul should be saved. I was really hoping the EVP would say absolutely not. You've, you know, rot in Hell, umm.
Christine Schiefer: Ignore my weird dad. He's such a creep. Anyway.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So also in the kitchen there's still the original bells that the family would use to summon, uh, the staff and people still hear them, they still hear the bells ring.
Christine Schiefer: That's creepy.
Em Schulz: Also, one time they, one time they left a recorder in the kitchen when it was empty, when like the room was empty. And you hear this weird shrill scream, EVP. It also kind of sounded like a sink was running, which is weird. So maybe they just got the faucet turning on. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Uh, either way.
Em Schulz: But it was like, either way I didn't like it. Um. Also, many mediums here have gotten names and dates right away without any context about the house. And they often get the name Ann McNulty, who was one of the servants. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, interesting.
Em Schulz: She also will tell them about items throughout the house that no longer exists there, but older staff can confirm that it was once there.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] The mediums see it? Or, or you said.
Em Schulz: Uh, mediums are speaking on on Ann's behalf who says, oh and here this used to be here.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I understand. So, oh, the medium's hearing Ann describe... What? That's crazy. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Uh, also Ann is said to sing a lot to the mediums and so investigators are starting to think that she was one of the children's nannies and nearby people hear the voice of children upstairs.
Christine Schiefer: Oof.
Em Schulz: Another Tredwell child in the house, uh, is Samuel that a lot of people say haunts the building with Gertrude and Seabury. But other sources said that it wasn't Samuel, it was Horace. So I'm just gonna say both of them haunt the place.
Christine Schiefer: Why not?
Em Schulz: And they are somewhat pleasant apparently if you run into them, they are fine. They are not mean. They, one of them you smell moth balls around him.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh.
Em Schulz: Another one who, another one who we think is Horace. Uh, people have seen his full body leaning against a fireplace mantle dressed in all black. And he looked like he was sad, like he was mourning. And keep in mind this was a time when the parlors were used to host funerals, so.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my gosh.
Em Schulz: And he was one of 10 in his family, like including the parents who many of them died there. So maybe they're replaying part of his, one of the funerals in the house.
Christine Schiefer: What the fu-? It's so weird to see like that, that like glimpses from different scenes like kind of pop through.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just crazy. That's just so trippy.
Em Schulz: If you died today and then people saw your full body apparition replaying something, what would be the moment you think they would catch you replaying?
Christine Schiefer: Probably like dropping a bunch of boxes or something. [laughter] Like it would like sound really jarring, but in reality I just told myself I could carry like 16 boxes upstairs and then they all went tumbling down the stairs and then I had to go down one by one for each of them. Like I think it would be something so stupid, but it would seem dramatic, right? They'd be like, oh my god, this crashing and some something went flying down the stairs and it's like, no, just my laundry. I just thought I could carry everything upstairs. Umm, what about you, Em.
Em Schulz: I don't know, I feel like mine would be like the fridge door opening and closing nonstop or.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] It's, I mean like also same. Yeah. Relatable. So I feel like, I feel like that's a good one. I, uh, I could, I could see myself in that same scenario. Yeah.
Em Schulz: One woman who actually did see Samuel or Horace standing there, uh, in front of her thought that they were a real live person and had a whole conversation with him thinking he was alive. And only when her boyfriend walked in later she turned back and all of a sudden that guy was totally missing and they realized that he was one of the Tredwells.
Christine Schiefer: Okay, so these, this family, this TM-TM again, because this seems like a good TV show. Like I know they already have a show called Ghosts and stuff, but just this family like trying to stop people from having tours in their house. Like it's just, it's really good. I like.
Em Schulz: For there to be.
Christine Schiefer: There's a premise for a lot of comedy.
Em Schulz: EVPs not included for there to already be three instances where there's... Four instances where people have seen a live living, a seemingly living person interacting with them. Where Gertrude's scaring away the kids.
Christine Schiefer: Who actively sees them.
Em Schulz: Actively sees them actively interacts with current living people. Gertrude, who scared away the kids.
Christine Schiefer: Well, that's five then.
Em Schulz: Why?
Christine Schiefer: The, wasn't there a lady who looked right at the guy on the stairs?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: And they like knew they saw each other. I mean that's less interactive, but still he said like.
Em Schulz: Yeah, their eyes connect and then Gertrude talking to a tour. Samuel or Horace talking to a tour, them having a conversation with him now. I mean these are like, I don't, I mean very intelligent ghosts and I wonder if the whole family, like what does that mean? Does the whole family get to be intelligent if most of them lived here or.
Christine Schiefer: Right. They can they like teach Horace if he didn't catch on right away.
Em Schulz: Right. Like, is he just kind of like pacing the halls and everyone else is like, Horace, get over here. You don't have to do that anymore.
Christine Schiefer: Just get away from the funeral. We can leave that now. You don't need to be sad in the parlor. [laughter] I don't know, I just wonder because like what if maybe it's because the house is situated a certain way or like built out of a certain material. Maybe it like just is better at channeling, I don't know. I don't know.
Em Schulz: Maybe. It could also be like stone tape theory of like if enough death happened in the space, like the whole house absorbed it. So maybe it kind of shoots back all the same type of energy?
Christine Schiefer: But wouldn't that happen in like everywhere there were like mass casualties and stuff?
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe they just spent so many decades there that I don't know. I don't know. That could be a lot of Paranormal Logic. A new brand by Em and Christine.
Em Schulz: Logic is obviously with a k and the G is maybe a J.
Christine Schiefer: Oh wait, it was, it was Ghost Logic.
Em Schulz: Ghost Logic.
Christine Schiefer: I said it wrong. I think.
Em Schulz: That's okay. Luckily we haven't signed any papers yet, so.
Christine Schiefer: Ha! Um, speak for yourself. Holds up post-it note with my signature on it. Sorry. Umm, I think it was Ghost Logic 'cause I remember already designing the logo in my head. Umm, but you know what I'm gonna T I'm gonna T paranormal TM TM Paranormal Logic, just in case.
Em Schulz: Excellent. I can't wait to see. And then immediately hop onto your business plan. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
Em Schulz: Other people have seen, uh, mist and shadows. Uh, there's even pictures, several, several pictures of figures showing up. Umm, a lot of them are humanoid bodies or shadows or people literally standing there on their own in the hall or people standing next to visitors. Uh. Some photos even have a solid white, like human height glob. Like, it's almost like the ink is missing from the photo. And it's, it's.
Christine Schiefer: Ooh, so it's like a shadow person, but like, uh, the negative of a shadow person.
Em Schulz: It's almost like it did not want to be seen. And so it said like, when these photos develop, I'm just removing myself from the narrative totally. And like the ink could not print it out.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] The pigment just didn't. Ew.
Em Schulz: And then the pic, that figure is always standing next to the fireplace. So maybe it's Horace.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Aw, he's just sad.
Em Schulz: Umm, people also say that, uh, the beds upstairs will unmake themselves. The chandeliers will swing. People hear creaky furniture. Uh, even though it's been restored, the doors will open and close by themselves. There's banging on the walls throughout the house. People feel cold spots. Something touches them often. Whether that's on your arm or poking you or patting you. People feel like they're getting touched all the time. Again they hear footsteps, they hear conversations in empty rooms. And this is where I might actually be replayed for the rest of eternity. People hear snoring on the couch.
Christine Schiefer: No. Interesting.
Em Schulz: People also see, uh, like teacups and random items moved around the house. But teacups specifically as if someone is carrying it around drinking tea and then just leaves it somewhere.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] That would be me also. Like just em, like half empty coffee cups just.
Em Schulz: Oh, you and all your cups? Ugh.
Christine Schiefer: I would, my cup. I would have cups in every, my trash piles would just like scatter all the time. Yeah.
Em Schulz: It would be wild if, I mean eventually if there's so many cups in a room, you don't notice if one is added or taken away. So maybe they just leave a pile of cups for you and like, you can think you're tricking them, but they're actually not that scared. 'cause it just looks like a random pile of cups after enough time.
Christine Schiefer: They're like, wow, we're really bad at dishes.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And it's true also. Yeah. Also, I'm there.
Em Schulz: Umm, at a Christmas party in the building, employees did like a raffle and one of the gifts was a crystal dish. And one of the employees, I guess who won it had to come back into the office the next day to grab it. But it just sat on, uh, the middle of a big desk until she could pick it up. And when they walked in the, the next day it was shattered on the floor. And there's no way it should have because it was sitting very sturdy on a very wide table. The only way it would've shattered was if it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, so they left it there alone.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. The only way it would've shattered as if it was tossed.
Christine Schiefer: That's not good.
Em Schulz: Um. Also, during one fundraising concert in the house, uh, each of the musicians, one of them being that damn employee, an Anthony, umm, they, they were doing like a little concert in one of the rooms and all of the musicians said that they felt something really off. They felt something like spiritually was weird. They felt like they were being stared at. And right before they started playing, one of them felt a blast of heat behind her. Another was severely poked in the ribs. Another one felt really sick. And after the show, they were all comparing notes about like what happened to them. And people who were watching the show, like the audience members, uh, who were mingling with them now overheard them comparing these experiences and said, oh, I wonder if it had anything to do with that like older woman who walked right past all of you right before you started playing.
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up.
Em Schulz: And multiple people, they were like, yeah, we thought it was weird that you just started playing and didn't acknowledge her walking right through like your, your scene. Umm, but she walked across them, sat.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my god.
Em Schulz: Sat down in the audience and then watched the entire concert perform. So they just thought she was a random performer or a random audience member.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. They were probably like, let's ask that old lady what she saw.
Em Schulz: I know.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like, what old lady?
Em Schulz: So they assume that's Gertrude, but also like, why is she poking someone in the ribs right before their show? That's so cruel.
Christine Schiefer: Well, she's trying to get everybody out and then this Anthony shows up and he's like, oh, I'm leading tours today. And then all of a sudden she's like, oh, I'm free. And then suddenly he comes back with a fucking violin and she's like, who the fuck? Like, I got rid of all the tours for today. Tonight's my time. And then he shows up. He is like, now I play the guitar. Like I don't blame her for being like, I have been trying to get rid of this guy and now he's playing music in my house and I'm trying to go to bed.
Em Schulz: I do appreciate that she at least gave up enough to sit down and watch the concert, but still like how wild that nobody, 'cause then I wonder like, okay, they didn't see her walk through the the concert, but did they see an old lady sitting and watching? Like, did they only see half of her experience?
Christine Schiefer: Well, 'cause maybe she just walked past and then like kind of vanished and nobody kind of knew where she went. You know what I mean?
Em Schulz: No. Like a bunch of people said that they watched her walk across to a seat, sit down and then play boy and then, and then watch.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, oh, oh she sat, they saw her sit. Oh. I thought this was like a whole mingling the whole time the music is playing. I didn't realize it was like a seated thing, oh, boy.
Em Schulz: No, it was a concert.
Christine Schiefer: That's even, that's so much worse. So much worse.
Em Schulz: Yeah. So they all, they all watched her just step right in and then sit down almost as if she was late for the concert. Umm, you know?
Christine Schiefer: God, I mean she is the reason the concert is late.
Em Schulz: I know. And honestly, she should be like so grateful because they're trying to raise funds to keep the house so she can keep fucking with them.
Christine Schiefer: Keep it exactly the same, right? Like yeah.
Em Schulz: One of the nicer spirits in the house is Eliza, the mom. Umm, her room is most active, I guess. Umm, there's a lot of EVPs here. One investigator looked in the mirror and actually asked Eliza, this is where I'm gonna have you, umm, pull up that link again and go to 27:56. So, uh, in Eliza's room there was investigators and they walked past her mirror and one of them who she decided she was gonna look in the mirror and talk to Eliza there, one of the investigators said, Eliza, do you think so-and-so looking into the mirror, do you think she's pretty? And uh, and this is the clip of her response to that.
[video playback]
Female Investigator: Is it alright if I use your mirror?
Male Investigator: Do you think Holly's a pretty girl?
EVP: "Pleasant Enough"
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Holy shit. That's incredible.
Em Schulz: So like in a...
Christine Schiefer: I was not, I don't know what I was expecting, but that was better.
Em Schulz: So in a, umm, socially passive aggressive way, umm.
Christine Schiefer: He said, so he says, is she, do you think she's pretty to the ghost. And she and she fucking responds. Sorry, go ahead.
Em Schulz: She goes, "pleasant enough."
Christine Schiefer: Literally pleasant enough. And it like, you can hear the intonation of like pleasant enough, like almost question like.
Em Schulz: You can hear her saying it. You could hear the eye roll as she's saying it like the, the...
Christine Schiefer: And you could hear the old tiny voice. Like, it, it sounds like an old tiny voice from what you'd hear like on an old phonograph or something like it's amazing.
Em Schulz: Which is why I'm confused why in my notes I wrote that she's one of the nicer spirits. I'm like maybe if, if, if she was nice to not fully be incredibly rude I guess umm.
Christine Schiefer: Maybe like compared to her...
Em Schulz: Sure.
Christine Schiefer: Husband.
Em Schulz: Sure. Umm, but yeah apparently I mean I love that they were still so like snarky back then. Like I...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah...
Em Schulz: You would think... In my mind they were just so posh that like they would only... Even if it meant lying to your face would've been like yes, very beautiful. Yes. But she was like hmm, I guess I would literally by the way.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know. I think all those... What? Yeah, go ahead.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, can we talk about that poor investigator who's probably lost sleep for the rest of her life that like.
Christine Schiefer: First of all.
Em Schulz: People people who aren't even in the room think you're not that great to look at.
Christine Schiefer: I need you to listen to yourself right now because you come to my house and stand in my basement and go Hey ghost, Harry, do you like Christine's baby or not?
Em Schulz: You know.
Christine Schiefer: And I'm like why would you even ask the question to open that door of of Hmm. Great question. I've never thought about it but I hate that baby. Like, why would you even open the door and then you waltz on out. Stir up your drama and waltz on out. So don't even pretend like you would be so taken aback by this.
Em Schulz: I do remember asking if the ghost liked you and they said yes. I don't know if... Did I say anything about your baby?
Christine Schiefer: You sure did. It was the next question. Actually.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I do have it on video. So if we'd like oh, I should pull that up. That could be either a Patreon or an Instagram or something I should send it to Megan...
Em Schulz: Yeah, let's do that on Patreon.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, let's do it on Patreon because it... We have a whole video that we've not ne-never done anything with I don't think umm, Eva correct me if I'm wrong, umm, a whole video of us doing metal detecting/dowsing rods in the basement. It was a very weird time.
Em Schulz: It was a good time. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: For you. For you.
Em Schulz: Yeah. I for me.
Christine Schiefer: But actually for me they said they liked me. Yeah. So it's fine. But yeah I feel like umm, if they had words instead of the dowsing rod they probably would've been like enough. You know?
Em Schulz: You're right. Right.
Christine Schiefer: And I would've said that's fine. I would've said that's totally fine. Like I'll take it. I don't need... I need pleasant enough. That's fine. I I don't need some evil old lady.
Em Schulz: You know and, and you're right. Maybe she is considered the nicer ones because if they asked Seabury Tredwell what he thought of her...
Christine Schiefer: Oh...
Em Schulz: He would've probably been like, yuck. You know, like said something really mean.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah. Or said something really creepy, you know, it could be...
Em Schulz: Well, I have what? Tell me.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, I was just gonna say, it could be like something really creepy like that he's really into the way she looks. You know, it could be that it could be bad either way.
Em Schulz: Yuck. Okay. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Right. Okay. I have, uh, another, this is the last clip that I want you to go to but it's 39:45.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. This is the funnest thing. I love doing this 39:45. You're like curating a perfect little montage for me. 38:25.
Em Schulz: 39:45.
Christine Schiefer: What is 39:45? What is wrong with me? I'm like losing my mind. 39:45. Okay. I'm there.
Em Schulz: So this is when they are talking to they're, they're doing an investigation in the house and they're in an area that a lot of children are seen and the investigator is talking to the spirits of like oh, we have new people in tonight. Like don't be afraid though. That's what he says. And then we got this response.
Christine Schiefer: Okay.
[video playback]
EVP: "I am not afraid"
Christine Schiefer: For-fucking-get about it. That's the world. Why did they even put music under it? Like, don't even put music. It's horrifying.
Em Schulz: I mean, is that not the I mean, talk about like, when Zachary Bagel Bites is always like Class A EVPs all of a sudden every...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Forget it.
Em Schulz: EVP he's ever played is a joke. I'm like this is...
Christine Schiefer: Is nothing.
Em Schulz: Actually insane.
Christine Schiefer: Even the ones he faked... Even the ones he allegedly faked are not as good.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, wait should we say what, what hap... What happened? We haven't told them yet.
Em Schulz: Yeah so so they say, umm, I assume also Megan or uh, whoever please you know go ahead and play this or Jack if you wanna insert the audio in you're welcome to. Umm, but...
Christine Schiefer: Are we allowed to?
Em Schulz: I don't know. I feel like...
Christine Schiefer: I think we would need their permission. Maybe not.
Em Schulz: Can we just give them a big old shout out and say go watch World's Scariest Hauntings?
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's fine.
Em Schulz: Okay. Jack please insert. Uh, but yeah. Uh so they tell the spirits don't be afraid. And then you hear a kid's voice say I am not afraid.
Christine Schiefer: Ugh. Okay. Can I say something? I don't think that sounds like a... Like a little kid. I think sounds like an old, old lady.
Em Schulz: Oh they do sound similar.
Christine Schiefer: Let me listen one more time. But even though he said like it's a child the second I played it I was like that's not a child my dude. That is an old lady. But let me listen just to like see if I stand by that.
[video playback]
Male Investigator: And underneath that you hear a little girl say, "I am not afraid"
EVP: "I am not afraid"
Christine Schiefer: It's that last part 'cause she goes "I am not afraid."
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like it sounds almost like frail.
Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Ooh.
Christine Schiefer: I am not afraid.
Em Schulz: Which makes it worse because like I the two scariest people to get possessed are children and old ladies. I think that's...
Christine Schiefer: That's very true. It's bad.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Anyway so the, uh, and like all three of them that I just showed you crazy clear like clearest EVPs I've ever heard. Like...
Christine Schiefer: Like by far.
Em Schulz: It sounds like someone is just talking into a microphone. It's crazy.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Umm, and then the last super creepy story I have for you is that uh, an employee was... Is guess who it was? Fucking Anthony. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: He...
Em Schulz: This poor man he needs to quit.
Christine Schiefer: He needs to not get it... He needs to... He's he's not getting the hint. I gotta say. He's not reading the room Boo Buddy. If you get it you get it. You know.
Em Schulz: If you get it you get it. Read the room Boo Buddy. Umm, but so the creepiest... Yeah this is just the worst. He was about to close down for the night and he was going into rooms. His whole thing was like you know turn off the lights and stuff like that. He goes into Gertrude's room again. This is the room where she like was born and probably died.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, the room was totally lit. It was wide open. All the doors were open. Windows were good. Like nothing was closed up yet. It looked like a tour had just left the room. But Anthony noticed that one of the doors that should be open was closed by itself and shouldn't have been touched by any of the visitors.
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: So he was like that's weird. Why is it closed? So he walks over to see why it's closed and opens the door and looks inside. There's... He doesn't seen anything out of the ordinary but when he closes the door again and is back out in the main room everything was closed down.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: Lights were off, lights were off, windows were bolted, doors were closed. And it was like he was the last person in the house and ev... All the lights were off. Every... Someone had closed down instantly.
Christine Schiefer: So it's like that... It's like that horror movie trope where you like the suspense is building the suspense is building you look there's nothing phew. You turn...
Em Schulz: Uh-huh.
Christine Schiefer: And it's like ah! You know? So he's like opens the door with like probably full hesitation like, who's back there? What's back there? Opens it okay phew nothing. Close it. And then everything's shut down.
Em Schulz: Like within a second. Like the entire house is completely shut down and he's all by himself in this house. Like which by the way...
Christine Schiefer: Absolutely not.
Em Schulz: Then that makes me think again like was that just a total loss of time and memory and like did he close down the entire place and like because like... Because...
Christine Schiefer: Ohh. And then like mesmerized by the door.
Em Schulz: Well, my thought is like what if there was something in there that like he doesn't remember seeing but he opens the door something in there he like looks eye to eye with and gets like you know he, he loses his... You know he just kind of goes into a zone and then cleans everything and closes everything down almost then walks back...
Christine Schiefer: Almost did like psst...
Em Schulz: And reopens the door.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: And then comes back like oh.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah like in a possessed state almost.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah. Possessed.
Christine Schiefer: Like somebody jumped him and then he like went to the house. And then...
Em Schulz: Yes. Which I again love that if they finally can possess a person they still do all of his chores for him.
Christine Schiefer: But I bet. But I bet they're like you don't mop very well [laughter] and you're not doing a good job dusting the sh the candelabra. Let me show you let me hop on in and I'll dust for you.
Em Schulz: There's this one fucking spiderweb you refuse to get. Let me get it for you.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Every day we all follow you around and go, please God it's right there in front of you. You know? I mean who knows? I, I like that theory Em that he did do it. He just doesn't remember.
Em Schulz: Which like and then it would feel like a split second which we hear so many times of people losing...
Christine Schiefer: That's almost worse. I think that's worse.
Em Schulz: I know I... I almost hope that he lost no time. But it really in a blink someone else turned everything off which then brings up the next piece which is like well then why am I cleaning a damn thing? If you guys can do it in a second why don't you help me at night?
Christine Schiefer: Literally that. And also why even bother with this weird one door closed? Like what is this weird? Is it a prank? Like are you trying to kick me out faster 'cause I'm lingering too long?
Em Schulz: And yet if if in a second you can turn all the power off and have everything shut out for the night the second I leave now I'm gonna spend the rest of my life wondering if when I'm not there if you just turned everything back on in a flash. Because...
Christine Schiefer: Great question.
Em Schulz: You didn't want us to turn all your lights off.
Christine Schiefer: What the fuck? Maybe like...
Em Schulz: I wouldn't... I would start keeping a camera there all the time to see how often everything is being reopened without us knowing.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Like what if in the middle of the night everyone's gone home and they've just opened all the fucking doors and now it's like someone could just come in...
Christine Schiefer: Like literally every window or lit every lamp. Yeah. I wonder if that door to that closet was like a... They needed a distraction so that like...
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: They could do the rest of the house. Or maybe, I don't know, maybe they froze him for a minute. Like...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Stand here. I don't know. I don't know.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's so freaky. Umm, anyway, for years the house has now had an in-house paranormal investigator. Like literally he is just...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I love that.
Em Schulz: His, his whole thing. This is like the dream job.
Christine Schiefer: Is it fucking Anthony? If you say it's Anthony I'm gonna start screaming.
Em Schulz: It's shockingly not Anthony but I imagine Anthony.
Christine Schiefer: Anthony needs to go home. He's getting like eaten alive by this place.
Em Schulz: Anthony needs like three weeks vacation. Completely paid for at least umm.
Christine Schiefer: From a... In a different... Required a different state. Just like leave town for a bit.
Em Schulz: No, the in-house paranormal investigator his name is Dan Sturges. He's done easily over a hundred investigations here and uh, he's the one who got all those EVPs I showed you.
Christine Schiefer: Oh!
Em Schulz: He's very prominent in the show. World's Scariest Hauntings. Uh, but then...
Christine Schiefer: Okay, I was like I've seen this guy before I think maybe like on... Guesting on another show or something.
Em Schulz: Probably. Umm in 2020 during COVID the museum closed. And it was the first time in almost 200 years that there was an empty stretch. And people were like what the fuck do you think the ghosts are up to?
Christine Schiefer: I know.
Em Schulz: Like, do do you think they like that we're finally away from them. Like what do you think's going on?
Christine Schiefer: Do they miss us?
Em Schulz: And so just to guess, keep stirring the pot. They did investigations during COVID and uh, I think it was like a skeleton crew. Like the museum just did their own investigations.
Christine Schiefer: Right.
Em Schulz: But they would bring in like touchscreen monitors to see if anyone would mess with the monitors. Umm, investigators tried to communicate with people, and I mean they got a lot of evidence during COVID, but shortly after in 2021 the museum launched their own monthly live streamed YouTube series called In the Spirit of Science where now they have scientists come and investigate the house with Dan Sturges.
Christine Schiefer: Shut the fuck up. This is amazing.
Em Schulz: And in each episode Dan and others get together to discuss paranormal updates since you last saw them. And they talk about a paranormal topic so like recently they covered like ESP or they covered like a, a specific house or umm...
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] And this is on YouTube?
Em Schulz: It's on YouTube. It's called In the Spirit...
Christine Schiefer: It's called...
Em Schulz: Of Science. Which is so smart because they literally just have scientists doing spiritual stuff. Umm...
Christine Schiefer: I mean I like this is the dream. I love this. I love this.
Em Schulz: Umm, the museum like I said looks like it did back in the day. They've touched very little of the structure. One source even said that this is the only house left in New York City from the 19th century that is perfectly intact inside and out. It's all original including the family's belongings.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp]
Em Schulz: And today however the Merchant's House is threatened by construction for a new high rise next door which I guess they had experts come out. And the vibrations from the construction next door will severely catastrophically damage the plaster work and structure of the house.
Christine Schiefer: [gasp] No.
Em Schulz: And so the museum site uh or the museum website has resources available for people to get involved in saving the Merchant's House again. Although I think they already like green lit this building. So it's like definitely gonna happen. But I guess while the house is still there.
Christine Schiefer: Um. What about the earthquake that just happened I wonder?
Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Oh that's interesting. I don't know. But uh, anyway they still currently at least host tours. And if you would like to help fund the building you can do that at their website. So that's the Merchant's House.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. That was uh, a doozy Em I love that story. Thank you.
Em Schulz: Thank you. Happy to be here.
Christine Schiefer: You're welcome.
Em Schulz: Thanks for having me. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: You're so welcome. I just went on their website. I'm loving it. Umm, I mean just the fact that they have this like gorgeous ornamental plaster work, like, uh, what are these called? Medallions like above the chandelier. It's just like all right I'll give you five bucks. I want this place to stay pretty. You got me.
Em Schulz: You know, if they're already doing the... A YouTube live stream every month and they have an in-house paranormal investigator I think they're only one step away from like doing some Winchester Mystery house level TikToks.
Christine Schiefer: I'm saying. I'm saying we should uh, check if maybe they are...
Em Schulz: Maybe they are.
Christine Schiefer: And let's get viral guys.
Em Schulz: I would definitely 'cause if they went viral and then everyone donated like a dollar the the house would be totally fine. Right?
Christine Schiefer: I like how I'm like make, make them viral and then I'm like we're not even... We can't make ourselves viral. I don't know how we're gonna tell everyone else to make them viral but...
Em Schulz: Like please pre-order our book by the way. Umm.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Oh. Oh, it's so funny Em mentions a book we wrote. No. Umm, this is very cool though, Em. I'm like super into this. Thank you for umm, telling me about it. They even have a little logo that's like look drawn like the house.
Em Schulz: It's very precious.
Christine Schiefer: Wow. Beautiful. Well thank you. That was, uh, that was very fun. And now we have to talk about something terrible so is it my turn?
Em Schulz: Oh it's like every week almost. It seems. Yes.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost...
Em Schulz: It's your turn.
Christine Schiefer: Like one day it'll change but actually it never will. So I have a story for you today that I'm, I'm like unclear on how well you know this one.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: And it's a rarity I guess that like you'd have you know like occasionally you have insider knowledge on some of the topics like the Duggars and Jared's from Subway and like things that you've experienced in pop culture. This one I wonder because it's something I was heavily invested in and I don't know if you are as well. This is a story of Ruby Franke and 8 Passengers.
Em Schulz: Uhh. Okay. I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: A YouTube channel.
Em Schulz: I, I know of it, but I don't know. I know like when it went viral originally and there was like some information coming out. I know like the first few days of information kind of, I did not research it. I assumed you would cover it at some point, so I kind of avoided it.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, yes, yes. But so do you know, I guess what I'm wondering is like, do you even know like much about the family at all or like their channel all that?
Em Schulz: No, I never, I never watched their channel. I only found out about them as a crime. So. Um.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Okay.
Em Schulz: I know about them as a YouTube. Like they were a vlogging family.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. Umm, so yeah, I was wondering what your like 'cause I have a weird, umm, you know how you have your uh, kind of sick fascination with the Duggars and all that and kind of like...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: The hyper Christian families. My fascination is like YouTube drama and I don't know why because it's always drama about people I've never seen or heard of. Umm, but I got like way into like drama about Tana Mojo. Never even heard of her. I would watch like every video like drama about Shane Dawson. I like I follow all that but I don't remember watching.
Em Schulz: Oh, I remember you making me learn all about the Shane Dawson stuff. I remember.
Christine Schiefer: I was like losing my mind. I was like he made...
Em Schulz: And you've never... Like you had never mentioned that name to me ever before, but...
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: But you were in town and you were, I think it's 'cause you were in town and so you needed to vent about to somebody. I was the only person nearby.
Christine Schiefer: And like you're the only one who would, who would No, no. I feel like I thought you would be the only one who knew.
Em Schulz: Oh no, you made me watch like the whole hour long breakdown video and like, you and you were like...
Christine Schiefer: I sure did. Like.
Em Schulz: And you would, I've already watched this three times, but we have to watch it again. And then you just, and I didn't even have a say.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I made Blaise watch it. No. And then, uh, and then we Blaise and I had like a thing out in the, like we took a week, a long weekend, one, one time in like 2021 or something. And I was like, oh, I downloaded some YouTube videos about like this new scandal James Charles. And he's like, oh my god, Christine, like we're out in a cabin in the woods to like have a, a romantic like getaway. [laughter] And here I am, like I know there's no internet. So I downloaded a bunch of YouTube videos. Like I don't know what is...
Em Schulz: Which by the end of it you would memorize by heart. You would know every word of these videos.
Christine Schiefer: I know. I'm like, watch this part. This part's crazy. Like I just like the like umm, what's his name? The Ohio Kids. Those fucking dumbass kid brothers. Uh...
Em Schulz: The Shiefers or the...
Christine Schiefer: J... [laughter] Okay, good one. I deserve that... Umm, the J... Luke. Luke Paul and Jake Paul or J.
Em Schulz: Oh, Logan Paul and Jake Paul. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh, Logan. What am I talking about? Jake and Logan Paul. Like, I only follow the drama about these. And then when I learned about family channels and the that drama I was like, oh boy. So the Ace family listen, I know all, I've never watched a single one of any of them except I've watched all the drama channels who like play you the videos and stuff...
Em Schulz: See with, with the Paul brothers who was the one that was on the Disney Channel. 'cause that one I know a lot about. But I don't know...
Christine Schiefer: Jake, Jake Paul was I think right?
Em Schulz: The one who was, because I have a friend who worked with him quite a lot.
Christine Schiefer: I don't know I think it's Jake Paul.
Em Schulz: And, uh, I've heard stories about his time at Disney, but I don't know anything beyond that other than like they're I think not liked. I don't know. I am very I don't know them.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well I...
Em Schulz: I feel so out of the loop.
Christine Schiefer: Good thing, good thing I'll download a bunch of clips for, uh, you because I have honestly, I could cover, I could probably do like my own spinoff on just these drama channels. I just find them so fascinating. I mean not the drama channels, but like the stories they cover...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Because I mean, because this I mean truly like with this 8 Passenger stuff, I've been following this YouTube like drama about like when it comes out for years and then suddenly it like boomed into this like massive real horrible crime and it's like, wow. It felt like I watched it happen. You know what I mean? Like.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: I watched it devolve into like...
Em Schulz: That's how I feel about the Duggars.
Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yes. Okay. So I totally get it. And like nobody really is that interested in this except me. So I, I hope, uh, people, well not nobody but nobody like in my life, umm, obviously many people are interested. But, umm...
Em Schulz: Is this the, the family who, where the son was like wildly punished? Like, like ridiculously like...
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.
Em Schulz: The punishments did not fit the crime.
Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh. Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay. Then I, I remember, I remember I think before this ever became a crime I remember seeing something come up in my algorithm about like look at how this like mom like really does like like raise her kids properly.
Christine Schiefer: It's like fucked up. Like yeah. So that's all the shit that I would follow 'cause it was literally just drama or like tension about like umm, this is child, child neglect, you know, like people screaming, but like there's nothing you can do about it. So it was almost like more on the drama side but yes, exactly. It like, kept escalating and then all of a sudden it broke that like it's gotten 20 times worse and...
Em Schulz: Okay ooh not cool.
Christine Schiefer: Everyone watched the shit happen. It's not cool, but like, definitely fascinating that we can like watch over over the years, like live as these things develop and turn bad. Umm, and it's just so crazy. And because it's on the internet, like even though they delete all their shit, like there's copies, people downloaded it. Right? So they can't escape. Like we have a full timeline on video.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Well it's, it's so interesting because no generation before probably ours, like we were like the, the YouTube generation, like the first kind of...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Of its kind, if you will. Like, there was, there was no way before like diaries, there was no frame of reference for the fact that like, in today's world, you can fully get attached to someone's every in and out of their life. Like...
Christine Schiefer: So fun fact. Yeah, there was, but it was still on the internet. It was, uh, family blogs and I we were not...
Em Schulz: They were blogs yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Really in that age group yet because we were too young. But I guess there was like a group of like Gen X I imagine who got really attached to stranger's families via blogs. And it was such a brief window because like...
Em Schulz: Interesting.
Christine Schiefer: Video came out obviously. But apparently there was this window where people would just like write family blogs for their, to send their families. And then people, they were public, so people started like subscribing to family blogs that they didn't know. And it became like viral.
Em Schulz: I do remember the, see, I didn't know, I didn't know about that. I know, I, I remember growing up where we had blogs and, and then I remember when people transitioned to vlogs and you'd have to correct people. Like, no, no, I have a vlog with a v. Like I remember that.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Can't you hear how smoothly of the, of a word it is? Vlog?
Em Schulz: 'Cause some people... Some of my friends had blogs and some of them had vlogs. And I was like, I, I guess it's, I got two things to pay attention to now, [laughter] but I didn't know about the family family blogs thing. I knew about travel blogs so.
Christine Schiefer: I didn't either. I didn't, yeah. So I feel like they were like fashion blogs, travel blogs, but apparently family blogs had its own audience and I bet it's just because we were not in the...
Em Schulz: We weren't old enough yet.
Christine Schiefer: Right demographic and like, it makes total sense. Umm, so I'm gonna get into that a little bit. If you're totally not familiar with any of this don't worry. I am gonna explain it all. I know I just kind of like fangirled about YouTube drama but, umm, it really is like that. And then like uh, deep third eye meditations are like all I listen to on YouTube. So it's like a very weird algorithm. Em just watches beige.
Em Schulz: I was gonna... I was gonna say, RJ has it so easy that like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh, RJ watches beige. That's true.
Em Schulz: That his, his history when he is not around it's like literally just a boring color light. But if you were borrowing his YouTube he'd be very scared he would go to church.
Christine Schiefer: Oh he... You know what? You're 100% right. It could be so much worse. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Except I wouldn't well I would and then I would subscribe him on his own credit card to premium 'cause I can't, I can't watch another Target ad. I'm sorry. Umm.
Em Schulz: [laughter] I can't either.
Christine Schiefer: So anyway okay. This is the story of Ruby Franke and 8 Passengers. We're gonna start uh, kind of smack dab in the recent history, uh, of things. So there's this town it's called Ivins and it's in the southwest corner of Utah. It's home to about 10,000 people and is a suburb of the St. George metro area which borders the Paiute Indian Tribe of Utah reservation directly to the west. And the area itself is a very quiet place to live. Umm.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It's one of these like, just peaceful, calm communities. They see very little crime, umm, let alone crime of such a magnitude that hundreds of YouTubes and podcasts are covering it. So this is, uh, not, this is the last place you'd expect something like this to happen but on August 30th, 2023, it was morning and a young boy started ringing doorbells in an Ivin's neighborhood and very, umm, very unsettling because speaking of like the development of technology we have all of these clips on Ring Doorbell video.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: So this was like a fairly affluent community. They, they had these doorbell cameras right. And so the footage is all there of this little boy wandering from door to door. And so, umm, there was a documentary, umm, just released on I believe it was a 2020, uh, documentary. And they played all this footage of this little boy wandering around. And so he approaches the first house, and you can watch this on the doorbell camera he rings the bell and he waits, but nobody comes. So he moves on, he appears on the doorbell of the next house. Umm, and he rings that doorbell. And in the videos it's a little blurry, right? But you can definitely tell something is off. He was wearing shorts and uh, underneath the shorts you could see his legs which seemed far too thin. They were very knobby. Uh, you could see his knees and his other joints very clearly.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: It looked like he was way too thin. Yeah. Yeah. And what's more, he wasn't wearing any shoes, so he didn't get an answer at the second door either. So he walks to yet a third house and finally rings the doorbell. Umm, again, we have the doorbell footage and somebody answers and this was just before 11:00 AM and you can watch the whole conversation unfold in real time which to me, almost, I felt like I was like eavesdropping. It's a very odd feeling to watch something unfold.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Knowing what's about to happen when they don't know what's... When the guy opening the door doesn't know what to happen or what's about to happen.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like how I feel about, uh, when you watch body cam footage where they show up at like what seems to be kind of an innocuous call but, you know, watching it like, oh, they're about to uncover like a massive crime you know?
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And just watching them wander through someone's house and they're just like, oh, it looks like nobody's here. And you're like, oh my God, they're in like XYZ whoever famous...
Em Schulz: In a...
Christine Schiefer: Person who disappeared home.
Em Schulz: In a kind of a similar way I feel a smaller version of that when I'm listening to like dispatch phone calls and it's just, it's just in the beginning before...
Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes.
Em Schulz: The second guy has spoken. It's just hearing the dispatch say hello and like knowing that the next thing you're gonna hear is actually so fucked up and so sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's, that's, there's something like you feel almost invasive or it's like that feeling of umm...
Em Schulz: Well, helplessness. So like, you wanna be able to change what's gonna happen.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah so like you wish you could like jump in, the dramatic irony where like you as the viewer know what's gonna happen, but the characters don't. It's like that unsettling, like, ah, don't go in there. You know? Umm, so anyway it's very bizarre to watch, uh, to watch the footage. But you see the man open the door and he asks the boy uh, what he needs. He's like what, what do you, what do you need? And the boy says, could the he... The man do him two favors? And he said, okay. And the kid said first, can you take me to the nearest police station? And then he said well, actually just one favor is fine. So basically he was like.
Em Schulz: Uh! Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: I need two favors. First can you take me to police? Actually, let's just focus on that basically is what he is saying.
Em Schulz: How old is this kid?
Christine Schiefer: So the man is... Uh, he is, I believe, hold on, let me make sure I have it right.
Em Schulz: That's like such a sad, like, it sounds so adult that like you almost want it to be funny that a little kid is saying something that sounds so adult-like but then you're like, oh my God. Like he's literally asking to go to the police station. Then he is like actually like no 8-year-old should be prioritizing what favor to pick.
Christine Schiefer: No.
Em Schulz: And one of them is go to the cops.
Christine Schiefer: 100%. 100%. It's, it's a very, very, it's almost like jarring. Like it shouldn't...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: It shouldn't have to be this way. Umm, and I'll, I'll confirm the age later, but either way he's a, he's a young kid.
Em Schulz: At that point I would've been like you have to tell me now what the second favor is 'cause if that's the first one, what the fuck else is the...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yes. Step one is already too far. Please start over.
Em Schulz: As someone who's currently in charge of you in this moment, please tell me what the other thing is that's on your mind.
Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was incorrect. Uh, he's about, at least now he's 12, so this would've been, he was probably like 11.
Em Schulz: 10, 11?
Christine Schiefer: No, 10, 11, something like that. Yeah.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, so still again, too young for this. Umm, so he says, actually just one favor's fine. And the man says what's going on? This is when the man's like, okay, something's clearly wrong. He's like, kind of taking stock in this. And he goes, what's going on son? Have a seat here. And had the boy sit down in a chair on the front porch and it was very clear something was wrong. The boy when this man looked closer was covered in visible wounds he was emaciated. He had duct tape on his wrists and ankles and the duct tape was wrapped around layers of Saran Wrap.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, he told the man that he wasn't even from this area and then he said he was hungry and thirsty and it's just oh, it gives me chills. It's so heartbreaking. So the man calls 911, umm, and he starts crying on the phone to dispatch. And this is definitely like, you can see like what's the matter son? You know, he's like very a gruff guy.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: But he uh kind of breaks as he's talking to dispatch and he says this kid has obviously been... And then he kind of tears up and he says he's been detained, he's covered in wounds.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so first responders arrive on scene pretty quickly. They confirm that this child is malnourished and injured, and they later described him as stoic. Umm, he was almost strangely calm, uh, this whole time as they transferred him to the ambulance and then to the hospital. He told them that his mom's name was Ruby Franke, and he said that he had left behind a younger sibling at home.
Em Schulz: Aw.
Christine Schiefer: So this was, uh, very jarring because based on his condition, first responders were very nervous that maybe they would find this other younger sibling... deceased in the home.
Em Schulz: Not alive. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Yes, exactly. Because younger child this one... This child is already so abused and neglected. And so they said they need to you know, they knew they needed to act quickly, so they identified the house he had come from, and police were allowed to conduct a search without a warrant because, umm, there was like a threat of immediate danger to a child. And when they knock on the door, and again, this is like where body cam footage comes in, and like moments later in this documentary because you see them, uh, knock on the door and this woman opens. It's not Ruby Franke, it's a woman named Jody Hildebrand. And...
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: She opens the door and goes, what are you doing? And they just waltz right on in. And she says, do you have a warrant? And they're like, we don't need one.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Good for...
Christine Schiefer: Step aside.
Em Schulz: Good for them. They're like get the fuck out of my way.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah, for real. Like who are you even? And so I'm thinking, they're thinking oh, maybe this is Ruby Franke. Nope. Not even the mom. So what they discovered inside would be just so horrific and shocking umm, and basically would spread to the whole world just because of the backstory that we've kind of already alluded to with this uh, very famous family vlog. So I'm gonna give you a little, uh, what do we call it a throwback to the story of family blogging? Umm, and I guess the word, it does ring more of a bell when you call it mommy blogging because that...
Em Schulz: Mmm!
Christine Schiefer: Is definitely still a thing.
Em Schulz: Mommy blog. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: And so mommy blogging was kind of the early iteration of like a family channel. And so mommy blogging, umm, in the, at the end of the '90s, early 2000s, it started to gain popularity. It's a really simple concept. Parents share stories online about their kids, their daily lives, like post photos of first day of school and this is what we made for dinner, you know. And, umm, a lot of them basically started like I said, their pages just to send to family members like a personal newsletter almost. And that's why people were pretty surprised when their own blogs started gaining followers, uh, and popularity. And some of them even became like early internet famous. And before long these blogs were actually lucrative as well. They were selling ads space on their websites. Umm, they were doing features for like baby brands, you know, diapers, what have you, cleaning products, umm, food, you know, anything that kind of fit. So meanwhile, the sinister part of this is lurking beneath all the like, fun, innocent stuff. And that is the fact that these children their entire lives, day to day...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Moment to moment are being shared publicly for anyone and everyone. And I mean anyone and everyone to see.
Em Schulz: Anyone. Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Hmm in the worst possible iteration. So some parents chose to use fake names for their children, umm, but the kids of more famous bloggers would still be recognized just by their photos. Umm, I mean like you and I get recognized and most people just listen to the show you know, so it's photos, it's Instagram photos, that kind of thing so you can imagine if...
Em Schulz: So it's also... Even if you're not showing the kid which was not even probably a concept at the time. Nowadays it is but...
Christine Schiefer: Right. No. Yeah.
Em Schulz: If you're posting pictures of yourself, if people recognize you and then see your kid next to you, your kid's gonna get recognized, you know.
Christine Schiefer: Already. Yeah, exactly. And like, even if you go to school, you know, they still know your last name. Right. And like.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: They can find out pretty quickly that who your parents are. And so, you know, when it was blogging, it was already apparently, which I didn't realize getting kind of out of control. Umm, but of course then when YouTube rolled around and other video sites but primarily YouTube obviously, umm, which was around the mid 2000s, mommy blogging kind of evolved into [chuckle] devolved into mommy vlogging. And now there like you're... There's no hiding. You're showing more of your children than ever before. You're, you're showing, uh, I mean, we'll get into it but every moment, every vacation, every wake up, every drive to school like everything...
Em Schulz: And...
Christine Schiefer: Is being filmed and people are eating this content up.
Em Schulz: A, a smaller thing too is like if it was just blogging, it was usually just probably pictures and now it's audio. So now people are also hearing your kid's voice.
Christine Schiefer: Audio. 100%.
Em Schulz: Which I know is such a small thing compared to everything else you listed but it's just another way for your kid to get recognized even if you're trying to protect their likeness.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, but even if like on a blo... On a blog you know, even if somebody was blurring their kids' faces like with video, no.
Em Schulz: Hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like people were not blurring anything, right? Like it was just you're... Everyone's on camera.
Em Schulz: Well, there wasn't even like from... There was... There wasn't even software for like that was acc-accessible to common people to blur our face.
Christine Schiefer: To that every day. No, no, that's so true that I feel like that was not even a consideration like you said. Umm, so like, literally from birth and like, we see this now, and I'm not saying anything against people. Like I watched 8 million la... Like in labor birth videos and they helped me a lot to like cope with the fear of giving birth. So I'm not, I'm not shaming that but I'm basically just giving people an idea of like, when it comes to a family vlog some of these families would vlog the second their child enters this earth.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And then like every moment I mean and the Frankes were bad about this.
Em Schulz: I mean I literally watched... I literally watched the Duggars there was 30 births like, so like...
Christine Schiefer: Right. Oh yeah. So you, I mean, it's, right, exactly. It's the same idea. And it's almost like with they're on TLC, right?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: So it was like TLC at least there were some frameworks for we can only show this many minutes per episode or what have you.
Em Schulz: Right.
Christine Schiefer: But like with vlogging especially, it was just like hours of day to day munda... Mundane shit you know? And people would just have house...
Em Schulz: Every inch of your house... Every inch of your...
Christine Schiefer: Every inch.
Em Schulz: Like, I mean, there was even, I know there's probably videos, like how do we protect our kids at home? Let me show you our security system. Like what? Like that's... Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Oh my God we type in 6-2-5-9. Like Holy shit.
Em Schulz: Yeah. It's like there's...
Christine Schiefer: Somebody out there, somebody out there was like how does Christine know my fucking keypad number. I just said four random numbers.
Em Schulz: No, but I mean it's... And also I, I will try to refrain but like, I, I will say, umm, especially with the Duggars which I don't know if that's, this is, I don't think this is the case for the Frankes. Maybe it could have been. Umm, but I know with TLC with a lot of things coming out about 19 Kids and Counting is that it was just to have a baby was almost it wasn't just for God anymore and their religion it was to keep numbers going because their...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.
Em Schulz: Top episodes were when they had babies. And so it was almost like...
Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah. Well...
Em Schulz: A factory, a baby factory, just to keep the numbers up so they could get paid...
Christine Schiefer: The baby factory like let's... Like new season like let's keep it going. Yeah. And, and we need another J name that doesn't start with J. Umm. So the, the one that always springs to mind about the Frankes that was always talked about discussed when critiquing the channel, umm, is the video where Ruby films her preteen daughter go have like talking about her I think it was buying her first bra.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, they filmed the whole thing buying her first bra. They talk about getting her period, shaving her legs they film her shaving her legs for the first time. And like they know what they're doing at this point.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: I mean, you can see the demographics are so upsetting, uh, of the number. Ooh it gives my whole body chills, the number of old men watching videos of a 12-year-old shaving their legs. And the reason I say they know what they're doing is, this is a clip in like maybe a longer video but the thumbnail is like, so and so shaving her legs for the first time. Aah! You know, and it has like a bare leg. And it's like they know what they're doing...
Em Schulz: But even if they didn't...
Christine Schiefer: They know they get numbers.
Em Schulz: Even, even if they didn't they they've been told by now and they could have taken it down and they wouldn't.
Christine Schiefer: They've sure been told. Exactly.
Em Schulz: So they definitely know.
Christine Schiefer: And so it, and it got more clickbaity and it would be like, like, I mean, some of these channels post videos, like we went to the hospital and like one of them is pregnant you know, and you're basically like baited into thinking like did they lose a baby? And it's like, no, we just had to like say hi to our friend. Ha ha. Got you. And it's like that's so damaging...
Em Schulz: Are there...
Christine Schiefer: And fucked up.
Em Schulz: Maybe maybe this is the Frankes but there was I remember there being a video at one point that went viral where like I guess the wrong video was like, it wasn't edited properly and it was like making a, a, a woman making her daughter like cry or making her sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's Ruby Franke.
Em Schulz: Is it and then making her like pose so that way they could get the thumbnail of her daughter like in tears.
Christine Schiefer: I think it was her son and their dog had just passed.
Em Schulz: Yes.
Christine Schiefer: Or maybe maybe daughter. But every time I watch it, of course it's blurred because, umm, the people who are covering this are more considerate about the kids than their own parents. Umm, and so I've only seen the face blurred, but she's basically like, you can just see her like grab the kid and be like, no, look sad. And then the kid goes, I am sad. And she goes cry.
Em Schulz: It's like you don't look sad enough.
Christine Schiefer: Cry. Cry.
Em Schulz: Yeah. Your dog's dead. Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: Like cry, cry. Ooh. And then like, just like forcing this child. And he goes, I am crying. And she's like, look at the camera. Look at the camera. Like, just shocking. I mean horrifying. And like, it's just, it just gives you a small snippet into like, this child just lost their dog and now they have to sit there and like uh, pretend to cry about something they were already feeling devastated by. Like, I imagine there's so much untangling of like reality for kids who go through this and have to like, grow up and be like what is real? What isn't real? Like it must just be such a mind fuck, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, it's, it's really horrifying. So yeah, that was also Ruby Franke, of course. Umm, and so these families are sharing multiple videos a day from millions upon millions of subscribers. Umm, the monetized videos and ad content even meant that like even if down the line they wanted to take the video down or one of the kids eventually wanted to they couldn't because they were monetized, and the brand that sponsored the video would have to agree to it being taken down before the family could even have that option. So these kids have zero, uh, control of their privacy of their rights, umm, a lot of times in these situations of any money that they're basically doing labor to earn.
Em Schulz: Yep.
Christine Schiefer: Umm and so in 2015, Ruby Franke began her own vlog channel on YouTube which she called 8 Passengers. And the eight passengers being her Ruby, her husband Kevin, and their six children. Now they lived in Springville, Utah, which was about four hours north of Ivans which is where we started our story today. And this channel quickly gained popularity because Ruby and Kevin had this kind of enticing brand uh, for a lot of people who related to them. Kevin worked as he was a working dad, and Ruby stayed at home to raise the kids. They were Mormon. They promoted fundamentalist Christian values, and they had a pretty strict parenting style is how they like to call it. Uh, and I say that in quotations, and that's how their fans found them, and that's how critics found them. So they immediately were already getting some heat. Umm, but they had such a big following because people just I guess just like, uh, these other channels 19 Kids and Counting all these you know, people just like that kind of, not you in like, kind of an ironic, not ironic way, but you know what I mean.
Em Schulz: I gotcha.
Christine Schiefer: But people who I gotcha like support that and want to be like them, you know?
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Umm, they got a lot of traction that way. And so they blew up pretty damn quickly. In videos that Ruby recorded, edited and published herself umm, Ruby's children discussed discipline, uh, and there are many, many instances of this, but viewers pretty quickly felt like it was beyond strict parenting. Umm, over the years, some of the things that happened, we've already discussed some of them, but Chad, uh, their second oldest once mentioned that he, this is also another clip. You may have seen Em 'cause it kind of does the rounds a lot. Umm, he was not, he lost his right to a bed for seven months.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, for, for his bad behavior, which by the way, his bad. Well, okay. His bad behavior was that he tricked, which also I thought was pretty cruel. But they're siblings, he tricked his younger brother by waking him up and saying, we're going to Disney World pack your bag. And the kid got all excited and jumped up and started packing a bag. And then he's like, we're not going to Disney.
Em Schulz: Oh my god.
Christine Schiefer: I was pranking you, which is like terrible and mean, but also he's still a, they're both still children. And so...
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: As a quote unquote, "punishment" the mom took away his right to a bed for seven months and he had to sleep on a beanbag on the floor. Uh, and they kind of mentioned it in a video, and Ruby just laughs at the camera and says, "I don't think our viewers know about that one." So people started to kind of raising an eyebrow, like, oh, okay. So things get worse. I see. Umm, for example, once Ruby and Kevin canceled Christmas for the two youngest age 10 and eight, uh, because they had quote, "long patterns of selfishness and their unwillingness to repent and feel sorrow for pretty egregious choices they have made" an eight and 10-year-old.
Em Schulz: What? Yeah. What egregious, like you didn't share your juice box. Like what do you fucking mean?
Christine Schiefer: Here's the thing, they never even clarified. They just said, these two children, 10 and eight years old, their actions had affected their peers, teachers, and the entire family. So their Christmas was completely canceled.
Em Schulz: Insane.
Christine Schiefer: And what's worse, Ruby and Kevin made them watch their four older siblings open all their Christmas gifts.
Em Schulz: I was gonna say, it sounds like only theirs was canceled. So.
Christine Schiefer: Only theirs the youngest by the way. Like, it hurts my heart in such a specific way of like even though in the grand scheme of things, that's one of the smaller issues that this family's facing.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, that's so traumatic in and of itself on top of everything else for a small child. And even for the older sibling who has to go along with it, it's just, umm.
Em Schulz: I it almost makes you realize early on, and I, I don't, again, not a therapist here, but I imagine things like that being their regular day-to-day type of punishments. No wonder in moments where it's like, cry, cry, be sad, it's like uh, girl I'm so dead inside because you have like totally...
Christine Schiefer: Exactly.
Em Schulz: Shot my emotions that like whatever feeling you're expecting me to pull out of my ass right now I can't do. 'cause I already cried it all out by age five so...
Christine Schiefer: Like, you are like, you have controlled my emotions and the way that I present myself since I was shot out of the womb. Like I've never, like you've directed me my whole life.
Em Schulz: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Schiefer: It's just...
Em Schulz: It's just sad.
Christine Schiefer: It's just shocking. It's very, very sad. So, you know, over the years people have been like ringing alarm bells and saying like, guys, this is so fucked up. But you know, again, there's not really much you can do. She, for example, once said she kept the two youngest kids home from school to clean the house as a punishment for their alleged egregious choices. And then she hoped that...
Em Schulz: Damn.
Christine Schiefer: Keeping them home from school would bring pain. Umm, which...
Em Schulz: Hmm?
Christine Schiefer: First of all...
Em Schulz: What?
Christine Schiefer: Have you ever been a kid? She then was disappointed that they didn't mind missing school. And so she said that they had become numb to her punishments, and that is why she canceled Christmas to quote, "wake them up."
Em Schulz: Damn. So I just said that a little too early of like, they were already shot, but also like, not really. Like, so that brings, that brings in, sorry, I'm thinking in my Duggar brain currently, but one of the things that they teach in fundamentalist Christianity, you know, since I've been there, but from my observations.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah.
Em Schulz: Is that the first thing is to keep sweet and always be happy, and always with the smiles say, yes ma'am, I'm happy to do it. And so the second that they, and probably I'm guessing based on what I know about what happens later I would imagine that they are so filled with fear that if they're... She... They're already being punished cleaning, they know better than to like pout about it. Like for self preservation, they're probably just gonna like, act like they're more than happy to do it.
Christine Schiefer: Just do it.
Em Schulz: And then that's what got them in trouble is that they weren't sad even though...
Christine Schiefer: It's almost like you didn't react enough.
Em Schulz: They've been forced to be happy...
Christine Schiefer: It's like it's so sick and twisted...
Em Schulz: No matter what they can't win because then she would've just been mad that they were like crying and bothering her all day, even though she pulled them out of school.
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They weren't like accepting her punishment stoically enough. You know? It's like, I'm sure she wouldn't have been happy either way. Yeah.
Em Schulz: No. She just wanted a problem.
Christine Schiefer: So there's like no good reason. And so the next thing, this is the one that I always think of when Ruby Franke comes up, because it also went viral several times. Umm, Ruby posted a vlog about her youngest, who was six years old for getting her lunch at home. And she's in the car, Ruby is, and she's like, the school just called and said that my youngest, the daughter, uh, I, I'm not gonna say their names for sake of child...
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Privacy. Umm, but the six-year-old forgot her lunch. And according to Ruby it was the six year old's responsibility to pack and remember to bring her own lunch to school.
Em Schulz: Oh.
Christine Schiefer: So when the teacher texted about the issue and said Hey, can you drop by her... Drop a lunch off? Ruby said, absolutely not. And then to the camera she said, hopefully nobody gives her food and nobody steps in and gives her a lunch. Umm.
Em Schulz: Hopefully.
Christine Schiefer: And she doesn't... This is openly what she's telling her audience. So whatever she's not showing openly like makes you wonder.
Em Schulz: Yeah.
Christine Schiefer: You know umm, like this she thinks is perfectly acceptable. She said that going hungry all day would be a great and important lesson about responsibility for her six-year-old daughter. Umm, if I, if I was raised this way, like I would, I mean, I wouldn't have survived because like I leave my backpack at home every single day and I'm not even going to school anymore.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: Like, I always leave something behind and it's like a six-year-old can't one day forget her lunch without going hungry? And like your mom is not even gonna allow the teachers to give you some crackers. It's just, it's shocking. I mean it somehow still shocking makes every time I think about it...
Em Schulz: It makes you... It makes you wonder immediately like what the hell happened in her childhood that she like thinks that she's a better parent than her parents were or something, you know?
Christine Schiefer: Well, there trust me, there's many videos about that too. So you could uh, go down quite a rabbit hole. You should watch it. I'll send you the links. [laughter]
Em Schulz: I'm sure you've already got a master doc with all of it. So.
Christine Schiefer: I put... [laughter] I do it's in my mind. Umm. So over time, umm, more and more of these kind of instances happened and people would take note of them. Like Chad was once sent away to a wilderness camp. Umm, it was a program for troubled teens. Uh, we've covered some of these. It was notorious for unchecked and shocking abuse.
Em Schulz: Mmm.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, whole episodes could be done on these kind of programs. And so viewers began like trying to actually take action. There were petitions uh, on change.org to have the Franke family Investigative for child abuse. Thousands of people signed this thing. I signed one of them. And Sherry the oldest, she finally moved out and began college at Brigham Young University. And that's when she thought, I finally have a way I can help my younger siblings. So she began as an adult, now began calling and saying, please, somebody check on my family. I want a welfare check. My younger siblings are suffering from abuse. I know because I was there. And at one point her neighbors actually reached out to her and said, "Hey like, are you at school?" And she said, "yeah, I'm at BYU right now." And her neighbor said, well, I just, we just want you to know that your parents have been gone for almost five days and the four youngest children have just been left in the house by themselves.
Em Schulz: Oh my God.
Christine Schiefer: For that whole time. And so Sherry...
Em Schulz: Well, it's their responsibility to make their own fucking food. So.
Christine Schiefer: Right. They've been doing it since they were eight months old. So, you know what, figure it out kids. Umm, and so it was the... It was not the first time Sherry had to call for a welfare check but it just never led to results. Umm, authorities later claimed that their warrants were denied, which is why they weren't able to get into the house. Umm, but either way, Sherry was stuck like knowing that her kid, her younger siblings, the kids were all at home enduring this suffering and she had no way to stop it.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.
Christine Schiefer: And so she was stuck in the middle. So con... Meanwhile, controversy after controversy are coming out about 8 Passengers and they're... They had millions upon millions of followers. And now I don't know how many millions upon millions but they had at least multiple millions of followers. Umm, but Ruby began as this stuff keeps coming out and they're getting like pummeled with these accusations Ruby starts updating less and less on the channel.
Em Schulz: Okay.
Christine Schiefer: Umm. And in June of 2022 she announced she was leaving YouTube behind because she was working on a new project with a woman named Jodi Hildebrant.
Em Schulz: Oh God. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I wanna warn everyone now, this is gonna be a two-parter because.
Em Schulz: Oh, okay.
Christine Schiefer: There's just so much. Sorry to warn you now.
Em Schulz: I would, I also just wanna say, which I'm sure I, umm, I'm sure you'll mention it maybe whatever, but this is where if you have grown up with any abuse, you know that, uh, if the person you unfortunately have to live with through that, if anything pisses them off or upsets their, uh, their ego or criticizes them in a way that they don't like it, you're the brunt of them not knowing how to process their feelings. And something really terrifies me about like how there's no winning points to people defending the family because just gonna set her off and make it worse at home without...
Christine Schiefer: Yes.
Em Schulz: Like, just incidentally, like, just either we don't say anything and the kids are abused, or we do say something and the kids are probably abused twice as often currently 'cause she's in a...
Christine Schiefer: It's so true.
Em Schulz: Particularly awful mood.
Christine Schiefer: And for Sherry also to feel so close to it and like knowing she her hands are tied. Like she can't... There's nothing she can do. Like it must just be the most...
Em Schulz: Yeah. And it's such a weird...
Christine Schiefer: Helpless feeling.
Em Schulz: I imagine very bittersweet still a fucked up word, but Yeah. Helpless, but also knowing at least you got out and you can maybe do something about it, but still not knowing what to do and also shouldn't have to hold that burden.
Christine Schiefer: No, no. Especially not like freshman year of college. I mean, as the oldest. Geez. Umm, so Jodi Hildebrant, she was a licensed therapist, uh, who worked with the family and she had provided marriage counseling for Ruby and Kevin and it's believed provided counseling services to Chad before he was sent away to his wilderness camp.
Em Schulz: Oof.
Christine Schiefer: But now it seemed as if Kevin and Chad had both moved out of the home, but again, they had stopped updating everyone. So it wasn't really clear what was going on, but it seemed as though Kevin and Chad had both moved out separately and Jodi had moved in with Ruby and her four remaining children.
Em Schulz: Oh God.
Christine Schiefer: And that, that's where I'm gonna leave it for today, because I'm...
Em Schulz: Uh! Christine.
Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. I know, I know. But we're at two and a half hours and I feel like, uh, this is a good stopping point because it's about to get wild again.
Em Schulz: I mean, it's my own fault I kept interrupting you but it, it was...
Christine Schiefer: No you didn't.
Em Schulz: I feel like we finally have...
Christine Schiefer: I spent the first 10. Yeah. There was no way...
Em Schulz: We finally have a mind meld.
Christine Schiefer: We finally had a wine, wine, wine melt. I finally had a wine melt with you. And, umm, I, we needed to have that little like, rant about YouTube. So.
Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Christine Schiefer: I don't regret it.
Em Schulz: Okay, great. Well, uh, all right. I guess I'll see you. I mean, luckily we're recording much sooner than three weeks, so there's not a whole, umm, to do.
Christine Schiefer: Thank God we're recording in two days. I'm like, what's like, now I'm scared. What's gonna happen in the next two days? Am I gonna have a whole 'nother list for you? Probably.
Em Schulz: I would like an update about your tooth. It really does freak me out that we're just talking through that.
Christine Schiefer: Umm, how about I'll update you about my tooth and then the little statue I found in the garden, because I do have an update about that. I've researched it.
Em Schulz: Great. Oh. Okay, great. Yes, please. Okay. And I will, umm, hopefully have all of my teeth when I see you and no statues so um...
Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter] Excellent. Umm, I'll just bear the weight of all that...
Em Schulz: Keep the trouble over there...
Christine Schiefer: Myself. I will.
Em Schulz: Thank you so much. Uh, I guess everybody, in case you forgot, we got a book, please pre-order. We, we wrote another book it's called, And That's Why We Drink, A Haunted Road Atlas: Next Stop and...
Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.
Em Schulz: Uh, pre-orders are very big. You can find the link to it in our uh, social media bios and our show notes.
Christine Schiefer: And by very big we mean very, very important. Not like they're very big, like we've gotten a lot, we don't know, but they're very important.
Em Schulz: I I imagine it's just normal book size but it is important to purchase...
Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I hope.
Em Schulz: The normal size book. Um...
Christine Schiefer: Please. [laughter]
Em Schulz: Please uh, pre-order. And if you are coming to our LA show, uh, in a couple weeks, thank you so much. Uh, that will be a very bittersweet show.
Christine Schiefer: It will be.
Em Schulz: And uh, and, and again, make sure you stay hydrated. Drink some water you thirsty little rats. And...
Christine Schiefer: That's...
Em Schulz: Why...
Christine Schiefer: We...
Em Schulz: Drink.