E374 A Big Queer Door and The Mulberry Bush of the Year

TOPICS: THE DARK SIDE OF NURSERY RHYMES, KRYSTIAN BALA

Here we go round the mulberry bush illustration by Walter Crane

It's episode 374 and are technical issues bringing us closer together? We're so sorry, YouTube Boozers and Shakers, for the lag (we edited the audio separately so you won't hear the same overlapping issues there). We're making up for it with a new Compliment Christine segment. This week Em takes us way, way back to the origins and dark side of nursery rhymes. Then Christine covers the more recent Polish case of Krystian Bala. And has Em just dubbed Christine the "Princess of Pronouns"? ...and that's why we drink!

Transcript

[intro music]

Em Schulz: You know what my favorite thing about you is, Christine? Today, right now? Okay, I'll just tell ya. I was waiting for a, "What, Em? Tell me. I gotta know."

Christine Schiefer: Hello?

Em Schulz: Hello.

Christine Schiefer: Em, you froze that whole time. Uh, you said, "I'm gonna say something nice," and then it just completely went... And the computer said, "No, actually... "

Em Schulz: It's as if, uh, it's as if maybe I shouldn't say anything, so...

Christine Schiefer: I, I just know that it was recording locally on your end. So whatever you did say, the rest of the world heard. But apparently it was not for my ears, umm...

Em Schulz: Oh, no. I said, uh, I said I wanted to compliment you, and then I waited for a long time for you to seem excited and you didn't. So I was like, "Well, I guess maybe I just won't do it then."

Christine Schiefer: I probably seemed afraid because the whole screen went...

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Okay, let's try again. Do you wanna know something nice about you, Christine?

Christine Schiefer: I mean, I'm afraid now. But yeah, I would love to. Please, please. I love this new segment you've created at the start of our show. Go ahead.

Em Schulz: Well, one, your skin looks incredible. But two, my other thing was actually that I love that when on your screen where it says your name and your pronouns, I like that she/her sounds like Schiefer. I feel like you've probably gotten that before but...

Christine Schiefer: Okay. You've brought this up before on the show.

Em Schulz: Have I?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: It really gets me tickled every time.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. So we... And then, I got in a lot of trouble. [chuckle]

Em Schulz: Why?

Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] 'Cause last time you brought it up, I made kind of a flippant remark because somebody had written in that they were kind of upset about... 'Cause we... On Beach Too Sandy, we used to say she/her/Schiefer. Like that was kind of the joke.

Em Schulz: I do remember this conversation.

Christine Schiefer: Like she slash her slash Schiefer. Remember that time I cried in the green room on tour? Umm, that was...

Em Schulz: Which, which time?

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: The time where I came in and I just burst into tears and everyone was like, "What the hell is wrong with you?" And I said, "It's my turn to cry." 'Cause everybody else had already cried. Umm, that was because somebody wrote in, umm, and was very kind of upset that I had sort of made a flippant remark on "And That's Why We Drink" about how somebody had written in saying they were uncomfortable with the use of she/her/Schiefer. And then...

Em Schulz: Why?

Christine Schiefer: Umm, I don't know.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: They said that we're making light of pronouns. I'm not really sure but they... Again, I hear I go making flippant... I'm not trying to make a flippant remark. So we stopped doing it on Beach Too Sandy. Okay? We completely stopped. So we don't wanna hurt anyone or upset anyone even though it was really one of my favorite things. And we...

Em Schulz: I like it. It feels...

Christine Schiefer: Designed for it.

Em Schulz: I like it. Especially 'cause both of our names rhyme with it. 'Cause Schiefer, she/her and Em, they/them.

Christine Schiefer: Wait a minute!

Em Schulz: But apparently that's flippant. I don't know. It feels like we're just like making it very clear where we stand.

Christine Schiefer: I feel like some people have been upset with like me discussing pronouns because they say that I'm kind of, uh, so we just got... Xandy and I just got another email of somebody who was upset that like, I guess this is why I drink. 'Cause we did get an email saying they were upset that we got confused when my brother was talking about, he said something like, "Oh, they," and I thought he meant like a group... Like, uh, two people that were in this review.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: And he meant they as a, as a singular pronoun. And they were like, "You're contributing to the confusion around." And I'm like, honestly, I think just talking. Just talking about using they, them pronouns as a normal pronoun, everyday pronoun is not... I don't think it's...

Em Schulz: I mean, maybe...

Christine Schiefer: Belittling pronouns. I don't know. I just feel like why not make it a lighthearted, like fun to talk about, like normal thing to discuss instead of like tiptoeing around it on eggshells, right? Like, I just wanna feel like...

Em Schulz: As the they/them in the room, let me make it clear that when words... There, when words are homophones, you get, you get confused sometimes [chuckle] That's just how...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, exactly.

Em Schulz: Language works.

Christine Schiefer: And to be honest, it was like part of the joke. Like, you know, we weren't, whatever. Long story short...

Em Schulz: Canceled. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Upset about my use of pronouns in a, in a lighthearted way. But I feel like that's kind of a good... I mean, I just... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like discussing pronouns, like as if it was any other aspect of a personality or, or identity is not belittling them. Like, I feel like pronouns are so important to discuss and I don't wanna tiptoe around them like they're sacred. You know? Like...

Em Schulz: Yeah. I feel like at this point people...

Christine Schiefer: We can talk about it.

Em Schulz: If people don't know where you stand. I, I, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so...

Em Schulz: I, I would like to think that one day in a, in a perfect world, I can make fun of... We can make fun of each other's pronouns the way we make fun of each other's names, where it's like, we are not invalidating the fact that they exist.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: It's just like...

Christine Schiefer: Yes.

Em Schulz: If a joke comes around and it's like not harmful, why not?

Christine Schiefer: Right. And I wanna be clear here too, like if people are listening, my brother does not listen to this podcast, so like, please don't go yell at him. This is me. If you, if this is upsetting you [laughter].. Like if you're, if you feel... Like I'm not calling anyone out. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I'm not trying to invalidate that anyone was upset or hurt or what have you. I really am not. Umm, but I just, I thought I'd share my experience with the she/her/Schiefer and why we don't really talk about it on Beachy Too Sandy. But I do... I was very tickled when I found out... When I, it occurred to me that she/her/Schiefer kind of rhymes and Em/they/them rhymes. That's fun.

Em Schulz: I think it's fun. I don't know. I know I don't speak for all people, but speaking for myself, it is fine. But whatever.

Christine Schiefer: I mean, you are the Em-pire, so you kind of do speak for everyone.

Em Schulz: You know what? You said it, not me. Okay. So, wow. [laughter] Sorry for really just enforcing the reason why you drink. And it's like...

Christine Schiefer: That's probably why my computer froze. It was like, "You actually don't wanna be part of this conversation [laughter] 'cause, uh, you're gonna get triple canceled.

Em Schulz: That was God's last try to keep you from bringing it up.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter]

Em Schulz: Umm...

Christine Schiefer: No. I'm like... I've tried so actively. I don't try to not get canceled. I, I like to think I don't have to try that hard, but, you know, I, I try to be like as cognizant of people's, uh, feelings. But, you know, every now and then things still slip through the cracks. So I apologize, uh, if I, uh.

Em Schulz: I guess so.

Christine Schiefer: Offended anybody. I really, it's really... I promise you, not my intention. Umm, anyway, so Em, now that you know why I drink, why do you drink? [laughter]

Em Schulz: Oh, why? I guess I, I feel bad that I caused that whole kerfuffle, uh, maybe a second time.

Christine Schiefer: No, I'm glad, I'm glad you opened, opened a door for me to talk about it briefly.

Em Schulz: I opened a big, queer door for you.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: Umm, I drink... Man, I'm just so sleepy, Christine. I've, my sleep, my sleep is just even worse than normal. Umm, and so...

Christine Schiefer: That's not... That's actually, I feel like now we're in the red zone. [laughter] I feel like you exist in a permanent sleep state of like orange-threat level. And now we're like, uh-oh. Uh-oh, danger.

Em Schulz: Like I, I am like kind of in, umm, I'm in like a, a nodding situation, so I was like, "Oh, good. I'll be slap-happy. Maybe this will lead to some good conversation." Maybe it'll lead to some bad conversation but...

Christine Schiefer: Are you gonna fall asleep like I did on the show?

Em Schulz: You know what? I'm owed one. So I actually feel...

Christine Schiefer: You are.

Em Schulz: Less bad now. Umm, [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Well, I mean, to be honest, it's like shocking that I fell asleep once and you didn't. You fall asleep so easily.

Em Schulz: That's so true.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, right? What are...

Em Schulz: I'm so much, I'm so much better at this than you are.

Christine Schiefer: You are. [laughter] You really are. It's true.

Em Schulz: Oh, no, you, you know what? That does make me feel better. That if I were to doze, uh, you know, I've got a, I've got a pass, a hall pass, so.

Christine Schiefer: You do. You have a hall pass, but only one.

Em Schulz: But only one. Yeah. I can't mess it up. It has to be really worth it. So I'm not gonna do it today. But, umm, uh, where, what... Yeah, I think that's... I don't really have a reason why I drink.

Christine Schiefer: I thought you were about to say, "Where am I?" And I was like, "Okay, you need to use your pass... You need to use your hall pass today. Go to bed." [laughter]

Em Schulz: I, yeah, no, I, I luckily know where I am, physically. Mentally...

Christine Schiefer: That's good.

Em Schulz: Absolutely not. [laughter] Umm, yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm okay other than being sleepy. If I took a really good nap right now, I'd be a 10 out of 10. So we're gonna... We're gonna just gonna rock with that. If my biggest...

Christine Schiefer: Instead we're gonna work. How does that sound?

Em Schulz: Weee! You know, I'm so lucky that my job is like, the worst thing about my job is like one of the...

Christine Schiefer: Is that you can't sleep.

Em Schulz: Best things you can do.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Em Schulz: It's like the worst part of my job is I get to hang out with like a best friend and like talk about things we enjoy.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's kind of wild.

Em Schulz: That's pretty good life.

Christine Schiefer: It's like the worst part of the job is that we can't just sleep the whole time. But, you know, that's...

Em Schulz: You said it, sister.

Christine Schiefer: Right? [laughter] But the rest of the job is fucking A-okay.

Em Schulz: A-okay. Yeah, I'm feeling good. Umm, so I, uh, what was I gonna say? I don't remember. It's gonna be a lot of that today. Good luck.

Christine Schiefer: Pro [chuckle] Probably a story, I think you were gonna say. But I mean, what do I know?

Em Schulz: I do have a story. I, well, so I have umm, I guess something to talk about. I don't know if it's actually a story. It's kind of, it's not even really a one-on-one. This was in me being already so sleepy. I decided that these would be the notes and so I went a little half court today.

Christine Schiefer: Is it like your, your receipt from the doc, like your health insurance paperwork or something where you're like, "I just decided these are my notes for today," [laughter] I just looked around and said, "This is it."

Em Schulz: I'm actually just gonna recite my medications for you. Umm.

Christine Schiefer: Honestly, that could probably fill an hour for both of us. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. I, umm, no, I, I went off a little, uh, I don't know, off the deep end and decided, "Oh, I'm gonna cover this." And it's not paranormal, but it is dark and grizzly.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: Which I hope still fits people's, uh, fills your desire of the macabre.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, wow.

Em Schulz: So here we go.

Christine Schiefer: Wow. Alright.

Em Schulz: [chuckle] Yeah, just get ready. Just enjoy.

Christine Schiefer: This is getting intense.

Em Schulz: That's all I gotta say. I'm gonna tell you, uh, some fun facts. The whole thing is basically fun facts for you today.

Christine Schiefer: I love that. We know, we all know we love that. We all know you love that, and you know we love that.

Em Schulz: It doesn't even matter what anyone loves. It's what I love. And I love a fun fact.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, [laughter] you're like, "Honestly, thank you for your input but irrelevant." So let's get back to this. [laughter]

Em Schulz: We've done enough of these. It's time that we're just honest with ourselves.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. All right. Fine. It's not about us. Okay. Okay.

Em Schulz: Okay. I decided... I was inspired by our last episode where I mentioned Mary had a little lamb.

Christine Schiefer: Ohh, fun.

Em Schulz: Uh, where that was actually a fun fact from a previous episode. So now that fun fact has inspired these fun facts.

Christine Schiefer: What a fun chain of events.

Em Schulz: Isn't it? So I'm going to talk about the dark side of nursery rhymes.

Christine Schiefer: Yay. Oh, shit. This is my German self is tingling.

Em Schulz: So I want it... Because of that, I wanted to make a caveat early on that I'm not going to be discussing anything that starts from like the Grimm Brothers. Like this... It's not, umm, stories or songs 'cause... Or it's, I guess some of them are songs 'cause they're nursery rhymes. But, umm, I had to like figure out which ones to cover and which ones to not 'cause they blend together. It's all, you know...

Christine Schiefer: People have like entire PhDs on like one fairytale from the Brothers Grimm. So Yeah. I can understand why it would be maybe not the best idea to go broad on this one.

Em Schulz: Yes. Also, thank you for saying Brothers Grimm. I said Grimm Brothers and I was just gonna coast, but then you...

Christine Schiefer: It's the same fucking thing.

Em Schulz: Anyway, so these are the like sing songy two, three liners that we...

Christine Schiefer: Love it.

Em Schulz: Like playground chants, as you will.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp]

Em Schulz: And so, I wanted to... Because if you look at like, even like we just talked about with Brothers Grimm, those stories are like fucked up. Like all of these have horrible origins [chuckle] So, umm, we're just sticking with nurse... Nursery rhymes today.

Christine Schiefer: Great.

Em Schulz: So, uh, start with the fun fact real quick. Do you know when nursery rhymes began?

Christine Schiefer: Hmm. When rhyming began? I don't know.

Em Schulz: That's probably actually the right answer. Umm...

Christine Schiefer: It's like a trick answer.

Em Schulz: It kind of is because I feel like as long as oral traditions have existed, it's probably a trick question. But, umm, officially, nursery rhymes began in the 14th century where they were like meant for children and they were limericks to...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.

Em Schulz: To help with cognitive development, I guess. Umm...

Christine Schiefer: And terror.

Em Schulz: And terror.

Christine Schiefer: Mental, mental, uh...

Em Schulz: Never forget.

Christine Schiefer: Mental illness. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Anguish. Yes.

Christine Schiefer: Anguish.

Em Schulz: Uh, they started in the 14th century, but I guess they weren't like really a thing until the 18th century, which is considered the golden age of nursery rhymes, by the way.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, who, who knew? [laughter]

Em Schulz: Which I guess since, I mean, you haven't really heard of a new nursery rhyme recently. They don't like come out with new ones anymore. So they all come from that... I think that era and just keep telephoning into new, maybe new versions now? But they're all the same.

Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, even the new ones are based on like, traditional ones. Like even the new, like more modern ones are usually like a play on the, the original. So Yeah, that makes sense.

Em Schulz: Yeah. So it makes sense also then why a lot of our nursery rhymes today are so fucked up because they are from a time when these things maybe weren't seen as so fucked up, I guess?

Christine Schiefer: Right. Sure.

Em Schulz: Umm, so anyway, fun fact, they come from the 18th century, most of them. The first nursery rhyme collection was from a book called Tommy Thumbs Songbook. And it comes from 1744. That was the first like booklet of rhymes. And quick shout out to nursery rhymes. Despite their content, they are very helpful with, uh, young development. They help kids learn vocabulary, rhyming, spatial reasoning, rhythm, structure, grammar. It helps you sound outwards. It helps you memorize stories before you can read. And, uh, according to, uh, one person in child development, if you teach a kid eight, eight nursery rhymes every year, then they will, like, there's some like wild percentage jump in their reading comprehension when they're like older. Because they have like a, they have a bigger toolbox to work from of, of words and vocabulary and rhythm and all that, so.

Christine Schiefer: Right. That makes sense.

Em Schulz: So fun fact, teach Leona at least eight of these. Got it?

Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, Jesus Christ, like I'm doing enough, right? Like, can I just take a minute... Break for a minute? I don't need to do teaching her more anything. She's teaching enough, she's learning enough.

Em Schulz: You know, with how dark a lot of these nursery rhymes are, maybe instead of teaching her eight of those, she just listens to eight of our episodes and it'll be exactly the same in terms of trauma.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, perfect idea. Especially 'cause they're many hours long. I, you know, she's already memorized, uh, Mothman ABCs, the book.

Em Schulz: Precious.

Christine Schiefer: So I feel like... I feel like that's enough. That's 26 letters.

Em Schulz: If someone could make our podcast rhyme, handled.

Christine Schiefer: I can. Should we just start rhyming?

Em Schulz: Not on the fly. I'm too tired for that. But give me like another day and absolutely.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. You kept talking. I was gonna rhyme with your last word, but then you kept adding more words and I was like, You know what Em, you're making this really difficult. And I feel like I wanna make it rhyme, but you're not giving me the time. So next time I'll try when I say bye-bye. [laughter] It doesn't even make any sense.

Em Schulz: You know what? That's the closest thing to poetry. I've read a lot of nursery rhymes today, and that's the best one I've heard so far. And it had the least problems to it too, by the way.

Christine Schiefer: Honestly, that's probably where I go... Where I go, right? Is like, I don't talk about like, I leave the dark shit for my actual episode, not for the fun rhyming portion of the episode.

Em Schulz: Well, one of my favorite things I stumbled upon, which I forgot the, I I, I don't know who to give credit to. There was... It's one of the websites I have in at the bottom.

Christine Schiefer: I'll take it.

Em Schulz: So I don't know who to shout out. It was probably Mental Floss because that was where I got a lot of my information. Umm, but somebody wrote a nursery rhyme today about something fucked up to give you an idea of how it might have sounded when it first came out in the 18th century.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's genius!

Em Schulz: And so they were like, "If a nursery rhyme with this level of dark content existed today,"

Christine Schiefer: [gasp]

Em Schulz: "This is how uncomfortable it should sound for us. But imagine children just like singing it and dancing on a playground."

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: Jeff the chef loved his fresh guests. He invited them in and they all lost their heads. Jeff the chef didn't have enough beds, so he had to make room in all his ice chests. And apparently that's about Jeffrey Dahmer.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, fuck. I see. Yeah. Okay, I get it now. Yeah. It's like, "Oh, that could be catchy." And then you don't really think about it. It just sounds a little off. And then when you get older, you're like, "Wait a minute."

Em Schulz: Someone should do like a dissertation, like a psychology dissertation on how effective rhyming is immediately when it comes to dissociating from like the, the harsh reality of something because...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, as, as a big fan of limericks, I can tell you there's a strong correlation. I can promise you that.

Em Schulz: That's what I'm saying. You could talk about anything and as long as it's rhyming, you feel 50% better about what you're hearing.

Christine Schiefer: It, it's almost like, oh, the harsh truths of the world are softened. The blow is softened. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, umm, enough people eventually did realize how dark some of the tones were in these nursery rhymes. And they founded the British Society for Nursery Rhyme Reform.

Christine Schiefer: Whoa.

Em Schulz: And 'cause most of the, uh, nursery rhymes are from England, so...

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: I guess that's, they looked at their own list of nursery rhymes and went, "Wait a tick."

Christine Schiefer: "What have we done?" [laughter]

Em Schulz: They decided to clean up a bunch of their rhymes. And by 1941, the society had condemned a hundred of their own nursery rhymes for referencing quote "poverty, scorning prayer, ridiculing the blind, plus 21 cases of death, 12 of animal torment, and one case each of consuming human flesh, body snatching and the desire to have one's own limb severed."

Christine Schiefer: The desire to have one... Okay, this is... Okay. And that was in 19...

Em Schulz: So those were all condemned. Those were all condemned.

Christine Schiefer: That was 1941. So like, imagine what would be condemned today. Imagine that's, that's bananagrams. Okay. Wow.

Em Schulz: I have to be honest, I did look for the poem about desiring to have your own limb severed, I didn't find it. But I did want to know.

Christine Schiefer: I mean, Struwwelpeter is basically... He carried... I mean, it's not desiring, but he carries around big scissors so he can cut your thumb off. So I guess that's...

Em Schulz: Same difference.

Christine Schiefer: Close.

Em Schulz: I mean, the only, the only difference between a cautionary tale and a nursery rhyme is one is shorter and sing-songier.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it does. The, I feel like the Germans were like, "We're not gonna make this fun and rhyming and easy for children. We're gonna make this as traumatic and blatantly upsetting as possible." And they did.

Em Schulz: I feel like the German said, "Here's Struwwelpeter." And then the Brits were like, "Umm, let's sing about it instead so no one notices." Like it just very quickly turned into like...

Christine Schiefer: Let's talk about... But we still have to talk about it for some reason.

Em Schulz: We'll do like a...

Christine Schiefer: Instead of just being normal around our children.

Em Schulz: Like a bing bang bong. Like what you heard over there, let's, let's just get to the quick bullet point and we'll sing about it and then no one will really know what happened.

Christine Schiefer: Just like pick up a jump rope and no one will even think twice. You know. If you're jump roping, you're not paying attention to the, to the lyrics.

Em Schulz: No, not at all. [laughter] So here are a few, umm, quick ones that I'll read to you just to like, the fact that we sang them and it, or even like, you know, hummed them together, chanted them together. I dunno what the right word is, but we said them on the playground, it didn't even affect us. There was an old lady...

Christine Schiefer: I feel like I was probably in the corner chanting them and everyone else was like, "Can you stop and like play jump rope?" And I was like...

Em Schulz: I feel like you were...

Christine Schiefer: "I'm chanting my nursery rhymes." [laughter]

Em Schulz: I feel like you were chanting them backwards or something. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. I was adding Latin phrases and it was like, "Where did you come up with that?" [laughter]

Em Schulz: Your eyes actually went pure black. [laughter] Uh, so this is, uh, just a quick example. One is, there was an old lady who swallowed a fly and the, the line is, "I don't know why she swallowed a fly. Perhaps she'll die."

Christine Schiefer: Perhaps, she'll die. [laughter] You know what? And I love that nursery rhyme. I don't know.

Em Schulz: Did you like where it said, "There was an old lady who swallowed a horse. She's dead, of course."

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Yeah, 'cause I thought, "That's fun."

Em Schulz: But you know what? Like part of me feels like I thought about it so literally where I was like, "Of course she's dead. She swallowed a fucking horse. Like she wouldn't survive that."

Christine Schiefer: Well, that's what I thought. Like...

Em Schulz: She would not survive.

Christine Schiefer: Why would you do that? Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah. And I thought about it so literally I wasn't even thinking about like the why am I being taught this? Umm...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, same.

Em Schulz: Also, uh, Tom Tom The Piper's Son. Do you know this one?

Christine Schiefer: I don't.

Em Schulz: It's, uh, Tom Tom The Piper's Son stole a pig and away he run. The pig was eat, but Tom was beat and Tom ran crying down the street. So...

Christine Schiefer: Woof. That's okay.

Em Schulz: Immediately. I, I feel like I'm trying to channel like my grandpa, like back in the day it didn't mean anything. 'Cause like, I feel like this was a cautionary tale about like, don't steal or like...

Christine Schiefer: Right.

Em Schulz: You have earned the right to get beaten or something.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Right, right, right, right. I mean, I don't think that long ago that would've been an upsetting concept.

Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. Umm, there's also, this one was just, I don't know who this was warning. It only just instilled the fear of birds. But in sing a song of six pence, there is a phrase, the maid in the garden was hanging out clothes and down came a blackbird who pecked off her nose.

Christine Schiefer: Oh my god. [laughter]

Em Schulz: So I feel like that actually deters children from doing chores. It's like, "Well, I'm not going outside."

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And being outside, I mean, yeah. That's a little, seems a little backward. Did you know this one or the one before? The Tom Tom one?

Em Schulz: I didn't know those, but, uh...

Christine Schiefer: Me neither. Okay.

Em Schulz: They were quick one-liners. One that we both do know though is it's raining, it's pouring.

Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh. Leona sang that yesterday. What's, what's, what should I do? Maybe she does know more than I thought. Maybe she is a great reader or whatever you said earlier.

Em Schulz: Umm, if she comes up to you after the fact and says, "Mommy, why did he have a concussion and die in his sleep?"

Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's...

Em Schulz: Then you...

Christine Schiefer: True. He never woke up. That's right. Of course, I know that. Yeah.

Em Schulz: He went to bed, bumped his head and couldn't get up in the morning.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: Which I guess could have just sounded like he had a headache and he just didn't wanna get out of bed.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, there are days I can't get up in the morning and I'm not quite dead yet, you know.

Em Schulz: But like, and like bumped his head implies that he didn't crack his fucking head against the headboard.

Christine Schiefer: No Humpty Dumpty situation.

Em Schulz: But like it's, but yeah, went to bed, bumped his head hard enough he couldn't get up in the morning. That makes me seem, that makes it feel, I mean, unless it's, there's separate entities. He happened to bump his head, but he also happened to be really drunk from the night before and he was too hung over to get up, you know?

Christine Schiefer: I mean, but also he's snoring, so it's like okay, that implies he's alive at least through part of the night, you know?

Em Schulz: Yeah. You know what? You're right. That one's fine. Let's keep it. Okay.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter] Leona, you're good.

Em Schulz: [chuckle] Now, this one, I don't know enough about. Only one source said this and, but apparently the song, this old man was warning children about creepy old men being inappropriate with them. Now I will say the song is a little bananas, but kind of in a way where like, I don't even know what I'm singing. Like this old man, he played...

Christine Schiefer: He just like, he played knick knack on my thumb, on his thumb or something.

Em Schulz: This old man, he played four...

Christine Schiefer: One. He played knick knack on my thumb. I don't know how that pat... Knick knack patty whack give a dog a bone. This old man went rolling home. What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That... Honestly, all of these fucking cautionary, they're like, "Oh, well don't steal a pig or you'll get beat." And then it's like, "Oh, but when we're talking about child predators, we're gonna make it so obscure and convoluted...

Em Schulz: You know that's a great point.

Christine Schiefer: That you'll never actually learn anything."

Em Schulz: You know what I wonder though? And I didn't do enough research on this, I will own that. But I wonder if this old man is like written in cockney because it's supposed to be like a coded language where like you don't...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, so maybe it's just like a dialect that people would would've understood that we don't anymore? Or like we don't in the US?

Em Schulz: Let me see. Knick knack, paddy... Give a dog a bone. Well, give a dog a pon... A bone is a phone.

Christine Schiefer: So do we know what knick knack paddy whack means?

Em Schulz: Knick knack paddy whack.

Christine Schiefer: Is that... [laughter]

Em Schulz: That's what it means, man, I don't know. Okay, hang on. Let me look it up.

Christine Schiefer: This old man came rolling home.

Em Schulz: I mean, I know what a knick knack is. I got about a fucking thousand of those. Knick knack paddy whack. Knick knack paddy whack. What does it mean? Paddies, as they were known in English, would sell knick knacks. According to the theory, this is from LADbible. So excuse me. According to the... [laughter], according to the theory, when they tried selling their items door-to-door, they'd be given a whack and sent on their way while their dog would be given a bone as in the song. So oh, maybe like a creepy guy showing up at your door? I don't know. It was also only one source. I feel like maybe we were reaching there. Umm.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: But it does sound like...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it feels a little bit like reach, I don't know.

Em Schulz: Sounds like a door-to-door salesman just keeps getting rejected. But like, everyone likes his dog so the dog gets treats.

Christine Schiefer: That's not, that doesn't sound too bad. Let's keep that one.

Em Schulz: I'm fine with it. Yeah, and that sounds actually, I mean, I don't really like door-to-door salesmen anyway and I do like dogs, so it's still stands true.

Christine Schiefer: It's still actually very relevant in today's society.

Em Schulz: Especially as people hate people abruptly showing up at their home more and more, you know?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. The millennials are really readopting this nursery rhyme.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Fully. Give him a, give the paddy a whack and give the dog a bone or something.

Christine Schiefer: Is the paddy back? Give him, give his dog. Just don't forget the dog.

Em Schulz: Uh, dog tell the paddy to get outta here. Umm, okay, so...

Christine Schiefer: Tell him to roll on home.

Em Schulz: [laughter] So, uh, actually, you know, that was one of my favorite ones when I was a little kid. Fun. Fun.

Christine Schiefer: Well, Raffi sings it too, so I feel like, uh.

Em Schulz: Raffi got me good a few times.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. He, he really, uh, revolutionized the whole nursery rhyme industry as far as I'm concerned, with zero reference points for saying that.

Em Schulz: Uh, you have one reference right here. I dunno what you're talking about.

Christine Schiefer: There we go. That's right. That's, that's all I need.

Em Schulz: Just say a source and no one else involved.

Christine Schiefer: A source told me. And it may have been Mental Floss, but it also may have been Em, so who knows?

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Okay, so here's another one. This is where they do actually start to get dark. Those were some like silly ones, you know? Ha ha ha. The man is abusing children. Ha ha ha.

Christine Schiefer: The child predator. Yeah. Right. Okay. [laughter]

Em Schulz: Umm, but here, here are some with some actual like meatier backgrounds that I could find.

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: So, baa baa black sheep. Do you know this one?

Christine Schiefer: Uh, oh. I, we sing this every night, so I'm already in trouble.

Em Schulz: Excellent. Well, apparently people, well, okay, lemme do this first. This came out in 1731, a top charter, I'm sure. Umm...

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Billboard number one for weeks.

Em Schulz: I feel like in 1731, you didn't have a lot of competition. A lot of it was like, you know, played on the piano.

Christine Schiefer: I feel like it had to have access to write something because, or have a piano, which like most people did not.

Em Schulz: Like this one, this one had words, you know?

Christine Schiefer: Right, right, right. I'll do it.

Em Schulz: It's probably, immediately Tony, Grammy all of it. Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Tony [laughter] Yeah, 100%.

Em Schulz: EGOT, all the way, Baa, Baa, Black Sheep.

Christine Schiefer: EGOT, award winner. Yep. We, we know it.

Em Schulz: So, uh, baa, baa, black sheep, Have you any wool? Yes sir, yes sir, Three bags full. Umm, this is actually about, allegedly, sources say, this is about the great custom, which was a 13th century medieval wool tax...

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: And in this tax, it was created by King Edward I, he decided that for every sack of wools sold, if a farmer sold a sack of wool, only a third would get to go to the farmer in profit. The other two thirds went to him and the church.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I'm seeing.

Em Schulz: And so in the original song, I don't know if these are the lyrics anymore, but in the original song it was, Yes sir, yes sir, Three bags full. Uh...

Christine Schiefer: One for my master...

Em Schulz: One for the master, one for my dame...

Christine Schiefer: One for the dame. One for the little girl who lives down the lane. And I say one for Leona, who lives down the lane, although...

Em Schulz: Precious.

Christine Schiefer: Maybe I should change that. I don't know yet.

Em Schulz: Well, so no, well, no. That part's not too dark... The original lines were one for the shepherd boy crying down the line.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, jeez. Okay, yeah. We've changed that, I think in modern times.

Em Schulz: So he was originally crying 'cause he sold wool, and only got a third of the profit.

Christine Schiefer: Sad. [laughter]

Em Schulz: So that was sad. Plus I guess, umm, black sheep compared to white sheep where they didn't sell as much because he couldn't dye their fleece, and so they already were less money than the white sheep.

Christine Schiefer: Ohh. Okay, well, I think you'll appreciate our version, which is that we just keep singing it and we keep making... So we'll be... Like Blaise and I will take turns sometimes if we're in a hotel and she wants one of to sing, and I'll go like, baa baa, tie dyed sheep, have you any wool? Or like...

Em Schulz: Precious.

Christine Schiefer: Baa baa, glow in the dark sheep. You know, we change the color every time. Umm, so I'm glad that uh, I don't have to cancel myself over that one.

Em Schulz: You don't. Uh, and but there have been people, which I feel like this is where you sensed it might be going, uh, people have thought maybe there is an association with the fact that black is not as good as white...

Christine Schiefer: Mmm.

Em Schulz: And the word master being in the song...

Christine Schiefer: Right. That part's not great. Yeah.

Em Schulz: A lot of people have questions if there's some racial messaging there. Umm, its official history is unknown. We don't know if there's any actual, you know, meaning to that, but a lot of schools have banned the song from being quoted or they have switched the word black to something else, apparently, a lot of them have switched to rainbow sheep.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's one of my lines too.

Em Schulz: Perfect. So you're right on...

Christine Schiefer: Try tie dye guys, it's really fun.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Well, while we're here and while we're early in the episode is where I'm gonna bring up the actual horrid shit, just so we can then be a little more playful later and not end on something so intense, but it is also important to mention, so...

Christine Schiefer: Sure.

Em Schulz: Talking about baa baa black sheep, that one, we don't know if it had any racial undertones to it, but there certainly are some that...

Christine Schiefer: You don't say.

Em Schulz: We just don't say anymore. Umm, one of them, eeny meeny miny moe.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: So for those who don't know, it used to not be a tiger you were catching by the toe, but a racial slur. Uh, and there are a bunch of variations on that song. They were all equally horrible. They were all using the racial slur, uh, but through and through the song was openly directly about catching enslaved black people if they tried to run away.

Christine Schiefer: Oofa.

Em Schulz: So, we have changed the word to tiger, you know, but historically not good.

Christine Schiefer: No.

Em Schulz: Umm, another one, which I feel uncomfortable even saying this is Ten Little Monkeys...

Christine Schiefer: Oofa.

Em Schulz: Which that's on its own is now another not good word, uh, just put in the place of a much worse word, if we're comparing words, I guess, but... Yeah, so that used to be a song, a rhyme, but it was from 1869. And it was originally not even that phrase, 10 little blanks.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: It was 10 little blanks.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] I didn't know that.

Em Schulz: It was very direct. Also, Agatha Christie wrote a book with the same title, um, which ended up getting renamed, but both of them, both the song and her book were about 10 different ways someone could die. The song specifically was 10 different ways that little black children could die...

Christine Schiefer: For God's sake.

Em Schulz: But it taught white kids how to count. So that was what it was all about.

Christine Schiefer: Wow.

Em Schulz: Um, yuck. So it was heavily used in minstrel shows, along with songs like Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah, Turkey in the straw, and Do Your Ears Hang Low. So all of those, in case you're...

Christine Schiefer: Wow, I'm learning, I'm learning a lot. 'Cause I feel like I sort of vaguely knew. Like, I've maybe seen some TikToks or Listicles, but it didn't really stick, but now that you're saying them all together, it's like oh, geez. Yeah, there are a lot.

Em Schulz: There's a lot. There's also Oh! Susanna, Jimmy Crack Corn, and Camptown Races. Just as some of them. Umm, there's another one, I can't remember...

Christine Schiefer: What's the Oh! Susanna... What is the... Do you know the story on that or not really?

Em Schulz: Umm, no. I just saw a list.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I come from Alabama, with my banjo on my knee. Now, I'm afraid I shouldn't sing it. [laughter]

Em Schulz: There was another one about, someone's in the kitchen with Dinah, that one.

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah.

Em Schulz: I feel like that's... I feel like that... I don't know, I'm reading into everything all of a sudden, but I'm I'm scared of all of it.

Christine Schiefer: Strummin' on the old banjo!

Em Schulz: All I know is that Bugs Bunny was singing these, by the way, [chuckle] so...

Christine Schiefer: Of course.

Em Schulz: This is just a reminder that it's not like if you didn't hear... It's like some people didn't grow up hearing it like very popular cartoons were singing it, it was a big time thing. So this is where I just do my PSA that nursery rhymes were not always meant for everyone to enjoy, umm, not to scare anyone who's older than us, who is just unpacking a lot of privilege, but a lot of people say like, "Oh well, there's just racism in everything if you look hard enough." Yes, including nursery rhymes.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, correct. Wow, you nailed it.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: That's exactly right. Umm, it was teaching white people all the way from early childhood before they could even read to sing about the suffering of black people. It was instilling in black children who heard the song that they should feel less than. Umm, it was indoctrination at its finest, indoctrinating generations to have racist ideologies and not even know what they were singing about. Umm, this is a quote from one of the sites I was looking at, "Early on children were being taught how to hate and how to engage with anti-black rhetoric, hating black people was woven into their education and their play," and I just wanted to...

Christine Schiefer: The fact that's, that's what's disturbing too. Sorry to interrupt you.

Em Schulz: No, no.

Christine Schiefer: The fact that it's part of the play makes it so insidious because... Or makes it so damaging because it's so insidious, like, you know, oh it's just a silly playground rhyme. Well, that's an easy thing to sweep under the rug if you have that attitude, and so you can kind of just say, "Oh, stop being a snow flake, it's just a rhyme." You know.

Em Schulz: Or even, I mean, people saying like, "Oh, it's just a joke, it's not a big deal, it's just a joke."

Christine Schiefer: Exactly. It's the same idea.

Em Schulz: Or, "Oh it's just a word. It's just a word in a song, but I can't sing about it." Literally with the nursery rhymes, I feel like there could even be like a little five-year-olds being like, "Oh, I can't even say it in a song?" It's like, yeah. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: I can't even jump rope to it, yeah, exactly. It just feels like, of course, it stuck around for so long because it's veiled in rhyme and fun little catchy sayings, and then if you don't really look any deeper, which why would a five-year-old look any deeper? They don't know better. It's just like, of course, that stuck around for so long. That's, that's very insidious.

Em Schulz: This is what we were saying too earlier about songs like if, like how quickly you can dissociate from the meaning of something if it just rhymes and sounds fun...

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: Because even as we are unpacking things actively, umm, and I encourage all other white people to be doing the exact same thing by the way, if you're not yet, but there are so many things that like we're actively trying to unpack any privilege, any racism, and yet I'm telling you things right now that I didn't know until I read this. You probably didn't know until I'm saying it. It's like it just... There's always something new to learn, and the fact that these songs came out in the like 1800s, right at the crux of all of this, and then generationally was passed down because it's a fun song to teach a five-year-old...

Christine Schiefer: And then like Barney sang it. You know, it's like, wow, that is...

Em Schulz: Yeah, so it makes sense why it's still deeply rooted in society, because even as we're trying to not be like the generations before us, we're still singing songs to our kids not paying attention to the history of them, so.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's it's and it's a lot of work. It's it's exhausting and it's a lot of work, but it is very important, so I appreciate Em, you bringing this to the table.

Em Schulz: Just before your kid is singing a song that was rooted in a minstrel show, you know.

Christine Schiefer: I am appreciative that you're telling me this now before she can really sing, you know, so I can kinda intervene if necessary. So thank you for that. [chuckle]

Em Schulz: This is also where I shout out. Umm, I mentioned this in another episode a long time ago, but Turkey in the straw, which is one of the songs that is very deeply rooted in racism, umm, they had, that's like the ice cream truck song that everyone knows...

Christine Schiefer: Mmm! Right.

Em Schulz: And a few years ago, they had, uh, black artists come in and create a new ice cream truck song.

Christine Schiefer: That's the coolest thing.

Em Schulz: And, uh, I just wanted to give that a shoutout again, so if you are driving past an ice cream truck and it sounds different, they have updated their music. Umm, anyway, okay, so now we've talked about the important things, now we can talk about the things that are not as horribly rooted in societal collapse. Okay, so, uh, let's talk about Goosey Goosey Gander. [laughter] Do you know about that?

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: What? No. [laughter]

Em Schulz: Okay, so there is a, uh, this is a poem from 1784, and here's just one of the lyrics. I'll just leave leave this with you. "There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers, so I took him by his left leg and threw him down the stairs."

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh. But what the fuck. That is creative.

Em Schulz: And children just sang it and sang it and sang it. Apparently, this was... The theory is that this was about 16th century Catholic priests, because during uh, a a time where Protestants kind of were taking over, it was illegal in some areas to be Catholic, you had to say your prayers in secret, and so I guess the story was if you're Catholic, we'll throw you down the stairs. Umm, but some folklorists have also said that even if it wasn't meant to be that, to to be this new updated version, I guess, then it's not a new version lyrically, but instead of talking about Catholic priests, a lot of kids will talk about this while they're like playing with like daddy long-legs, spiders?

Christine Schiefer: [gasp]

Em Schulz: Because one of the lyrics is old father long-legs can't say his prayers. Let him by, they'll take him by the left leg and throw him down the stairs.

Christine Schiefer: Oh no, so are they hurting the spiders?

Em Schulz: So I know you are an animal activist, but I do know quite a large portion of children when we were kids who would just take legs off of daddy long-legs.

Christine Schiefer: What?

Em Schulz: Just pull them off.

Christine Schiefer: What?!

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: You pull off the legs?

Em Schulz: I didn't fucking do it. I didn't wanna touch a spider.

Christine Schiefer: Oh. You said we, so I just wanted to make sure.

Em Schulz: We as a collective. I know a very large amount of children who did do this, so I know it was quite common.

Christine Schiefer: Oh my God. I think if I saw that, I'd be traumatized, but I, I'm also just a humongous baby and I would just sit in the corner chanting in Latin as we recall, so maybe I just wasn't part of that group. But yeah, I remember, I remember, my memory of daddy long-legs is that they were always so scary 'cause they're so big, and then our teachers were like, "Oh, they're actually really friendly and never harm you, and if they're on you, you can just blow on them and they'll go away." So that was my memory of daddy long-legs. [laughter]

Em Schulz: That precious. My memory is...

Christine Schiefer: I did not know about all this other shit.

Em Schulz: My memory is them being de-limbed.

Christine Schiefer: That's horrible!

Em Schulz: But you know what? It's just a way, say it again. Say it dubs, double, double, double... Say it.

Christine Schiefer: A double entendre.

Em Schulz: Because, I mean as we're singing about throwing people down the stairs, I wouldn't be be ripping people's legs off at the same time, so it makes sense...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, true true point. It makes perfect sense. You're right.

Em Schulz: Raised to have no empathy. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: You're right. You're right, Em. That's exactly right. Just keep keep keep telling yourself that everybody.

Em Schulz: Uh, and also, if you happen to be someone who used to rip legs off of spiders, for shame.

Christine Schiefer: For shame also though, you know, I used to do fucked up shit, and I'm sure, I told you guys I used to draw with the little red bugs. You know, so to be honest, like I know it's sick, but umm, umm, I shouldn't even be shaming people. I'm sure I've done some fucked up shit with animal, with like bugs and stuff, so I'm not trying to be... I feel like I'm being hypocritical. So before anyone called me out...

Em Schulz: I feel like I would have been a kid who did that if I wasn't so scared of spiders, but I was not interested in...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, yeah, you just were. [laughter]

Em Schulz: Holding a spider to then ripping apart.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. That's, I mean, maybe that's part of it too. I don't think I would have been actively seeking that, that experience out. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Right. Anyway, so the, I'm not that I've heard this song before, I haven't heard Goosey Goosey Gander, but the last time it was popular, I think people were singing it and making it a daddy long leg song versus it being a Catholic 16th century priest song.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Wow, how charming.

Em Schulz: Uh, so old father long-legs can't say his prayers take him by the left leg, and throw him downstairs. That's so great. Children were singing that.

Christine Schiefer: It's just deligh, delightful.

Em Schulz: Also about Catholicism while living in Protestant England. There is the song Ladybird, Ladybird, which goes, "ladybird, ladybird fly away from home, your house is on fire and your children are gone."

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Jesus. I thought it was gonna say, and your children are home. Like they're gonna burn to death, but I guess that's sort of implied.

Em Schulz: Oh yeah, well doesn't that make that actually probably good that they were missing.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, they're not, they're not there. I thought you were gonna say, the house is burning down and your children are home, and I was like oh my God, somebody get the kids out.

Em Schulz: No, they're gone.

Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah.

Em Schulz: Because they were, because they were in the fire. Okay.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I gathered, I gathered, I gathered that when you said they're gone, 'cause it sounded so drastically sad, but I also thought, oh, maybe... [laughter]

Em Schulz: I thought it meant missing and I was like having a whole hoorah over here...

Christine Schiefer: Also not great.

Em Schulz: Okay. "Ladybird, ladybird fly away. Fly away to home, your house is on the fire and your children are gone, all except one called Anne for she has crept under the frying pan."

Christine Schiefer: Hello?

Em Schulz: Like she survived, because she... If I had to hide under a frying pan, I would be dead. Let's be clear.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] You're like one of our fingers would survive or something, but like how do you fit... Okay. I... Okay.

Em Schulz: Anyway, so that's the whole song, I think. And the Ladybird is supposed to be representing a Catholic living in Protestant England, uh, because Ladybird comes from the Catholic term, Our Lady, so it was code for a Catholic person...

Christine Schiefer: Ohh. I see. Okay.

Em Schulz: Despite it being illegal at the time, so the fire may refer to the Catholic priests who burned at the stake for their beliefs.

Christine Schiefer: Mmm, okay.

Em Schulz: And that's all I have to say about ladybird ladybird.

Christine Schiefer: Okay, wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow.

Em Schulz: Next is a personal favorite. This is Lucy Locket, who I've never heard of.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. I was like, that's a favorite? I've never heard of it, but it's a new favorite.

Em Schulz: It's a new favorite, umm...

Christine Schiefer: For you.

Em Schulz: It's just a one-liner. She's real quick, but Lucy Locket lost her pocket and Kitty Fisher found it, nothing in it, nothing in it, but the binding around it. And so here's the story.

Christine Schiefer: That's about me at the bar with my ID and I left everything on the floor and got robbed.

Em Schulz: So one of the people is a barmaid...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, there you go. So you were right.

Em Schulz: Both of them are sex workers in the 18th century, Kitty and Lucy.

Christine Schiefer: Cool.

Em Schulz: Lucy was also a barmaid, so she was doing a bunch of side hustles. Popular sex workers, and Lucy lost her pocket. Lucy Locket lost her pocket, her pocket at the time that was slang for like a John, or like one of your regular clients...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought it meant like a pocket book. Okay, so okay, gotcha.

Em Schulz: I also thought that until I looked it up. Yeah, so pocket, I guess because they would fill your pocket after.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-kay.

Em Schulz: You know what I'm saying?

Christine Schiefer: They were like the source of the funds or whatever. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yeah, so if you lost your pocket, that meant like you lost a client, essentially. So Lucy Locket lost her pocket and Kitty Fisher found it. So all of a sudden...

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: Kitty Fisher...

Christine Schiefer: Little miss Kitty.

Em Schulz: Scooped up the John that Lucy got rid of and nothing in it, nothing in it, but the binding round it, is basically the whole thing is that Lucy later found out after losing her client that Kitty started seeing him, and this caused a bunch of drama, the spat was apparently very well known back then between Lucy and Kitty.

Christine Schiefer: Oh wow, so this is a real story?

Em Schulz: I guess so. It says, it was very well known at the time, the the fight between Kitty and Lucy.

Christine Schiefer: Wow.

Em Schulz: And Kitty claimed that she... Oh, this is the nothing in it, nothing in it, but the binding around it. Kitty ended up going around town talking about this fight she was in with Lucy, claiming that she found a ribbon around the guy, or when she next saw him, he had a ribbon around him, and sex workers at the time kept their money tied around their thigh with a ribbon. So it was almost like, oh, she claimed him because now he's, he's got the ribbon around him. It was kind of like a, like finding out that you broke up with your girl at the Milk Shake Diner, and then you see her pinned from, like another guy's pin is on her jacket.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] That hurts. That hurts.

Em Schulz: Oh, she's going steady with someone else now.

Christine Schiefer: That hurts.

Em Schulz: Every time.

Christine Schiefer: So Kitty's binding is around him now, and it sounds dirtier than it probably is meant to be, but go ahead...

Em Schulz: Okay, so Kitty, Kitty has got him wrapped up in her ribbon.

Christine Schiefer: Gotcha. Wow, it gets dirtier every time we say it. [laughter]

Em Schulz: Sure does. Anyway. I love the children are just singing about like, apparently a famous fight between two sex workers.

Christine Schiefer: I love that they're like, oh, but everybody knew. I'm like, oh, this one's not even subtle. Okay, gotcha.

Em Schulz: [laughter] Another one is, here we go around the mulberry bush.

Christine Schiefer: I sure know that one.

Em Schulz: I do too. So that one was from 1840, and apparently, it came from England's Wakefield Prison.

Christine Schiefer: Oh!

Em Schulz: Because there was actually... And there really was a mulberry bush in the prison yard, and this is where the female inmates were forced to... If they were going to exercise, they had to do daily walks around the mulberry bush.

Christine Schiefer: Oh shit.

Em Schulz: And apparently, this is... I saw on a few sources that they had their kids too, 'cause I guess back then, if you had... You just kept raising your children while in jail...

Christine Schiefer: Oh excellent.

Em Schulz: So, uh, just moms and kids walking around the mulberry bush in prison together, and here's a fun fact, if it's the same mulberry bush, the people allege it was, then that mulberry bush has been on the prison grounds and was on the prison grounds through 2017 from 1840 to 2017.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] What happened to it?

Em Schulz: It died of a beetle infestation.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Let's write a song about that.

Em Schulz: But it was a contender the year before, so in 2016, it was one of the runner-ups for the Tree of the Year prize, and I don't know if that means out of all the trees in prison or like in town? I don't, I don't know.

Christine Schiefer: Oh gosh.

Em Schulz: Umm, I get why it'd be tree of the year, if there's a whole nursery rhyme, that's hundreds of years old. But anyway.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] Tree of the year. I don't mean to belittle it, but tree of the year is quite something. Also, isn't it a bush? Okay, anyway, go on.

Em Schulz: You know, I feel like tree of the year is something that like a cartoon tree would be shooting for by the end of the movie, you know? It's like I will make tree of the year one day.

Christine Schiefer: Yes.

Em Schulz: Dad will be proud of me, you know.

Christine Schiefer: Dad will be proud of me and I'll be able to sing and play sports.

Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] Everything's possible. [laughter] Umm, okay, another one is Pop Goes the Weasel. That one I know.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, sure, yeah.

Em Schulz: That one is about poverty in England where apparently... This is why I mentioned cockney earlier, because cockney is used in this where the weasel is cockney for a suit or a coat.

Christine Schiefer: Okay, sorry. So now, I think I'm confused 'cause I feel like are there multiple mulberry bush songs or am I just making that up?

Em Schulz: Oh, are they the same song?

Christine Schiefer: That's what I'm saying. I thought this was the song all around the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel, the monkey thought it was all in fun, but pop goes weasel or whatever, and then... But the other one is, here we go around the mulberry bush that was off tune, but you know what I mean? It's a different song, I guess. Why are there so many mulberry bushes?

Em Schulz: Maybe they're the same tune. I feel like in the 1800s, they came up with like one tune and just ran with it and just picked mere words.

Christine Schiefer: Mulberry bush, mulberry bush. No, it's a different tune...

Em Schulz: Is it?

Christine Schiefer: As you go around the mulberry bush, so... Wait, maybe that's a wrong sentence...

Em Schulz: I'm like fucking myself up here.

Christine Schiefer: Here we go around the... Isn't it here we go around the mulberry bush? Here we go around the yeah. Here we go around mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, mulberry bush. Here we go around the mulberry bush, so early in the morning. I don't know the rest of the line.

Em Schulz: I think they're the same song, they're just different words.

Christine Schiefer: This is the way we brush our teeth, brush our teeth, brush our teeth [laughter] Okay, that's the next verse, in case you're wondering. So maybe pop goes the weasel.

Em Schulz: It's the same.

Christine Schiefer: No, it's different, 'cause this one goes, all around the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel. That's the different.

Em Schulz: No, that's not monkey chased the... No, pop goes the weasel isn't... That's not the lyrics to pop goes the weasel.

Christine Schiefer: Pop goes the weasel. No?

Em Schulz: No. Pop goes the weasel is different.

Christine Schiefer: How does it go?

Em Schulz: Now, you're freaking me out. Hang on, I'm looking up the lyrics.

Christine Schiefer: Maybe I just combined them in my head, like I thought they were the same.

Em Schulz: It's like tuppenny rice and treacle or something right?

Christine Schiefer: What? [laughter] What does that mean?

Em Schulz: I guess, it's maybe just like the the old school lines, maybe they did change it. So the original lines, which is what I have written down, half a pound of tuppenny rice, half a pound of treacle. That's the way the money goes. Pop! Goes the weasel. No?

Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay, but then what about the one like we sing literally at Leona's story time, that's all around the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel, the monkey thought it was all in fun, till... And then everyone goes, pop goes the weasel. That's how we do it at story time. So I don't know if that's just a newer version or.

Em Schulz: It feels like they collabed and created...

Christine Schiefer: It almost feels like they got mixed together. Yeah.

Em Schulz: It is one of the more popular singing songs, although the first written records of the song dates them in 19th century. It's believed the origins go further back to the 18th century in England. Okay. Oh, there's a UK version and a USA version. So you're probably doing the USA version.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I guess so.

Em Schulz: The UK version was published in the 1800s. Yeah, okay. So the one I'm talking about is the original UK version.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. Alright, alright, so this is just...

Em Schulz: I wonder if it's...

Christine Schiefer: They just add mulberry bush may be because it's a different story.

Em Schulz: It's kind of like when Cardi B like features on a show. It's like, it's like, oh...

Christine Schiefer: It's the same as that. It's actually...

Em Schulz: Mulberry bush is like featuring guest spot on pop goes the weasel.

Christine Schiefer: Well, she does... Like Cardi B is also featured on pop goes the weasel, at least one I know.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Well, so, umm, yeah. That does... I wonder if it's because the the songs are so similar that we just slam them together. They're like...

Christine Schiefer: Just like, they're like that's probably what it is, 'cause when I looked it up, it looks like one of the verses from the original was around and around the chestnut tree, so maybe they just took the mulberry bush, 'cause it's the same amount of syllables.

Em Schulz: Yeah. So the the one from England is about poverty in England, where essentially it's listing things that they had to sell or they had to pawn the weasel for...

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh shit.

Em Schulz: And weasel was cockney for your coat or your suit. So the, the first line is about like food that they wanted to eat, and then they say, well, pop goes the weasel like, oh, I have to pawn this thing now to be able to afford that.

Christine Schiefer: Aww, that's terrible.

Em Schulz: The second verse is about a night out at a music hall, the third one is wanting to get drinks, which I love, the children are just thinking about like getting fucked up, but they have to pawn something for their alcohol.

Christine Schiefer: Like I can't even get a pint.

[laughter]

Em Schulz: Oh here it is, half a pound of tuppenny rice, half pound of treacle, that's the way the money goes, pop goes the weasel. And then it keeps listing things. And it goes...

Christine Schiefer: Pop goes the weasel, like here now take the coat off my own back or the shirt off my...

Em Schulz: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna have to figure out how to afford this, so pop goes the weasel.

Christine Schiefer: Wow, okay, that's interesting.

Em Schulz: Umm. Where's the drinking one? Oh, so it's also cockney. I think it's cockney. It's at least slang. It was at least slang at the time. Weasel is definitely cockney. I don't know about these two, but one of the lines is, "every night when I go out the monkey's on the table," so that's where you're thinking about monkey, that is where it had to have grabbed from that. "Take a stick and knock it off, pop goes the weasel." And apparently monkey on the table and take a stick and knock it off, that was slang at the time for alcohols on the table, to knock it off meant to drink it, to knock off the alcohol from the table was to grab it and drink it.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay.

Em Schulz: So anyway, love that it was just dubbed but kids were saying, I gotta get fucked up time to sell my shirt.

Christine Schiefer: Oh Em, come on, give them the benefit of the doubt. They're not getting fucked up. They just want a one or two to take the edge off.

Em Schulz: Yeah, that's sweet. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: A little buzz.

Em Schulz: Umm, so another song, Rub-A-Dub-Dub.

Christine Schiefer: Like splashing in the tub, thinking everything was all right, that one?

Em Schulz: Hmm, no.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. I mean, I'm serious, it's not it? 'Cause I did learn that in elementary.

Em Schulz: I did know... Well, I think... Are you thinking of the song Splish Splash, just...

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Never mind.

Em Schulz: Yeah. No, Rub-A-Dub-Dub, I feel like I heard it before. I think I'm mixing it up with like Rubber Duckie from Sesame Street.

Christine Schiefer: Rubber duckie you're the one... Yeah. That's a classic.

Em Schulz: Classic.

Christine Schiefer: Don't ruin that one.

Em Schulz: Now, that one's actually about poverty in England. No.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah [laughter] No.

Em Schulz: So there's two versions. There's a more popular version now, which sounds very fruity, umm, "Rub-A-Dub-Dub, three men in the tub and how do you think they got there? The butcher, the baker, and the candlestick-maker, it was enough to make a man stare." So that's the new one.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I like it. Okay.

Em Schulz: Which I love. I kinda just wanna keep it there. I especially wanna keep it there when I hear the original version, I think in the game of telephone, I think the word just got mixed up and now that's what people say. I think that's what happened. Is that the word just got mixed up. Because the original version is "Rub-A-Dub-Dub three maids in a tub, how do you think they got there? The butcher, the baker, and the candlestick-maker, and all of them gone to the fair." And so, translated TLDR, they were at a peep show and they were watching three maids in a tub.

Christine Schiefer: Ohhh. They were like putting a show on.

Em Schulz: Yeah, so like the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick-maker were all at the fair, go into a Peep Show and see the three maids in a tub.

Christine Schiefer: I got a little worried that the butcher put the girls in the bath tub.

Em Schulz: Oh interesting.

Christine Schiefer: But I'm glad that that's where my true crime brain went. I'm so glad that was not the case.

Em Schulz: Anyway, I like them being gay. Instead, I'm just having like a kiki versus like...

Christine Schiefer: I do. Absolutely.

Em Schulz: Okay, cool, so let's stick that with that.

Christine Schiefer: Agreed.

Em Schulz: Here's another kind of gay one. And by kinda I mean, for sure. Georgy Porgy pudding and pie.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp]

Em Schulz: Do you know about her?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Can I say her? I'm she/her-ing Georgie Porgie. Umm, sorry, my...

Christine Schiefer: She/her/Schiefer. [chuckle]

Em Schulz: [chuckle] My, Sorry, my lights went out. As soon as I'm talking about the gay stuff, it gets a little romantic in here. Okay, "Georgie Porgie pudding and pie, kissed the girls and made them cry. When the boys came out to play Georgie Porgie ran away." That's how it goes.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: Ironically, I grew up hearing the gay one because my recess was homophobic, I guess. But the song that I heard up... I heard growing up was "Georgie Porgie pudding and pie. Kissed the girls and made them cry. When the boys came out to play he kissed them too 'cause he was gay."

Christine Schiefer: What?! I've never heard that.

Em Schulz: And I think that was... I think that was just like kids being dicks but it actually ironically is about uh, the lover of King James I. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Oh. So, so the kids like read between the lines without even realizing it and were like haha, it's funny to be gay. But like in reality that is the underlying meaning of the story.

Em Schulz: The underlying meaning is that it was this guy named George I think I'm saying his name right Villiers umm, he... There's no... It's very heavily implied that he was the lover of King James I. Uh and that they had a very intense friendship.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: And they were roommates I... Probably umm, but so King James I ended up being so close to George that he kept giving him new titles, gave him power and influence. And I don't know if Georgie was in love with King James or was like maybe manipulatively doing this just to get power.

Christine Schiefer: Ooh.

Em Schulz: I don't know. But the king even, even dissolved parliament twice to keep him from being impeached to keep George from being impeached from his own titles.

Christine Schiefer: Oh my God.

Em Schulz: Through the relationship, he was later named the first Duke of Buckingham. Umm, there's allegedly King James publicly said to people, you may be sure that I love the Earl of Buckingham more than anyone else and more than you who are here assembled [laughter] gay.

Christine Schiefer: Go off King. Literally.

Em Schulz: But you know like his dad was like, oh my God how's your friend from college?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]

Em Schulz: I hope that your business partner's doing well.

Christine Schiefer: I'm just so glad that you... To see that you have solid friendships. You know?

Em Schulz: Yeah. What a good friend. Umm, while they were hooking up, allegedly Georgie Porgie was also a womanizer. So he was...

Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.

Em Schulz: Hitting and quitting quite often. So he kissed the girls and made them cry. He was also sleeping with a lot of the daughters and wives of noblemen and he kept getting away with it because the king would protect him. So when the boys came out to...

Christine Schiefer: This guy's bad news.

Em Schulz: He's just a fuck boy. And like for everybody, no one's safe.

Christine Schiefer: No.

Em Schulz: Uh, and so when the boys came out to play Georgie Porgie ran away because he had to like go hide behind the king who was protecting him.

Christine Schiefer: I see 'cause the boys were like we're here to play.

Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter] And like, he was kinda like okay. But then he was like, no, no, no, nevermind actually.

Christine Schiefer: And then, he's like oh in a bad way. Okay. I'm outta here. Gotcha.

Em Schulz: Anyway, I thought it was interesting that I actually did grow up hearing like the made up gay version.

Christine Schiefer: That's wild. So you know, there's actually a book that I recently gave, umm, a friend uh, who has a daughter that just turned three. And, umm, Leona has this book. And uh, my mother-in-Law, Sherry got it for her. And it is called, uh, oh my God. I keep screwing up the name of it. Hold on. This is, I promise this is important. One moment.

Em Schulz: No worries.

Christine Schiefer: Umm, it's called, 'What are little girls made of?' Umm.

Em Schulz: Oh.

Christine Schiefer: It's... I feel it's by let's see... Jeanne Willis. And uh, so it's basically like a twist on the... On a ton of like a, uh, classic nursery rhymes. But it's the... Like the subtitle of the book is Nursery Rhymes for Modern Times, I think or For Feminist Times. Sorry.

Em Schulz: Hmm.

Christine Schiefer: So basically it's all like flipped or with the Georgie Porgie one. It's like uh, Georgie Porgie, pudding and pie kissed a girl as she walked by and then it turns into like she turned around and said, hey, stop. You know like...

Em Schulz: Uh-huh, I love that.

Christine Schiefer: You can't touch me without my consent or whatever. Like but there are very cleverly written and there's so many good ones in there. Umm, and I've been giving that to people as... I actually just had the bookstore near me order a bunch more 'cause I think it's such a cool book.

Em Schulz: Oh, I love that. I'll, I'll take a copy. I would read that. That looks fun.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I'll send you one. It's so, so cute. And like the ones, umm, and they're just like very, and there's one where it's like, anytime there's a doctor, you know, it's like a female doctor like Humpty Dumpty. Umm, the doctor is a black woman now not like some random dude, you know? So it's very, it's very fun. And uh...

Em Schulz: There's a...

Christine Schiefer: Very feminist.

Em Schulz: One of the books that I... My mom always had on her like in our like foyer by like the, the front door and everything. She always had a book on a table that was politically accurate, bedtime stories and...

Christine Schiefer: Oh yeah! You've talked about this.

Em Schulz: I grew up with that book and I have it now, but it's, it's kind of the same concept. It's like...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: But it's very fun. Uh, anyway. No, I'll totally take a copy of that. That's...

Christine Schiefer: Yes, I will send you one. It's very, uh, it's very cute.

Em Schulz: Umm, next up we have Old King Cole. Do you know it?

Christine Schiefer: Okay. I do know this one, vaguely.

Em Schulz: Old King Cole... "Old King Cole was a merry old soul and a merry old soul was he..."

Christine Schiefer: A merry old soul was he.

Em Schulz: "He called for his pipe and he called for his bowl and he called for his fiddlers three."

Christine Schiefer: Fiddlers three.

Em Schulz: "Every fiddler he had a fiddle and a very fine fiddle had he. Twee tweedle dee tweedle dee went the fiddlers. Oh there's none so rare as we can compare with King Cole and his fiddlers three." So it's just like look at King Cole and his three little musicians. They're having a good time.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. So this one's not a fucked up one?

Em Schulz: Uh, not... Well, it is fucked up, but in a fun fact way. So, umm, they think stories suggest King Cole is actually old Thomas Cole who was a wealthy English merchant or better known as Thomas of Redding. And this is... I think this is like a different folk tale that people knew about. And then this song came from that folk tale.

Christine Schiefer: Hmm. Okay.

Em Schulz: So it's not, I don't think a real person, if it is, it's fucking fascinating. And they should have done a documentary on him umm, because Thomas of Redding, the character in this folktale, uh, he was from the 16th century and during his travels, he would often stop at a pub called the Ostrich.

Christine Schiefer: Hmm.

Em Schulz: And the Ostrich, the landlords, there happened to be serial killers.

Christine Schiefer: What?

Em Schulz: And they would rig a trap door to drop guests into a vat of boiling water. And the thing about Thomas of Redding is that he happened to stay at the Ostrich five different times and each time, without even knowing what was going on narrowly escaped death.

Christine Schiefer: So he is just like bumbling around and like...

Em Schulz: Bumbling around...

Christine Schiefer: Like lad-ida and like pianos and anvils are falling behind him.

Em Schulz: Yes. Yes.

Christine Schiefer: And he's not. Okay. Gotcha.

Em Schulz: Exactly. And the landlords are like goddammit, like, we know he's rich. We need him. We need to steal his money of all people and they just can't.

Christine Schiefer: It took so long to boil all this water.

Em Schulz: [laughter] Imagine how long it would take to a cauldron fit for a human being.

Christine Schiefer: That's insane. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, so he just keeps narrowly avoiding it but apparently he's like just very happy go lucky, bumbling around. So maybe they think like, oh, how merry was he or what a merry old soul.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. I would be merry too.

Em Schulz: Umm, this, this origin is often theorized but unlikely. Another origin guess is that Old King Cole is actually a com... A combination of two rulers at different times named Cole. One was an English king named Cole the old, yikes. And a Celtic ruler named Cole, the Magnificent, who got such a better deal in the name.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. [laughter]

Em Schulz: Umm, but both of them happened to have music loving daughters who inspired the line that Cole was always calling for his fiddlers.

Christine Schiefer: Aw, that's nice.

Em Schulz: So those are the two theories. I personally, like the serial killer one, obviously.

Christine Schiefer: You would.

Em Schulz: And now you've mentioned this one quite a lot today. So let's talk about Humpty Dumpty, who has a very interesting background. Do you know about the theories?

Christine Schiefer: I do, I do, I do. That he fell off his horse and they didn't want to and he was... Yeah. Yeah. He was like, he like tried to go fight and fell off his horse and...

Em Schulz: Humpty Dumpty was from 1797 and he is not a person or, or, or he might be a person but that's some of the theories. He's definitely not an egg which a lot of people think he is. Umm, the actual, one of the main thoughts is that he's actually a cannon the name of a cannon.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I didn't know that.

Em Schulz: Who was used to control, uh, used to gain control during the English Civil War. And during part of the battle, the cannon was sitting on a church tower until cannonballs hit the cannon. Like opposing cannonballs hit that cannon. And the cannon named Humpty Dumpty fell off the tower and shattered. And although retrieved...

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh no...

Em Schulz: The cannon could not be repaired because it was so heavy.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I've never heard that theory. Okay.

Em Schulz: Others say that Humpty Dumpty was a person and he was just a town drunk who fell off a wall and hit his head. Because in the 18th century, Humpty Dumpty was a word for a drink, which sounds very similar to the drink I mentioned last time. But a Humpty Dumpty was boiled ale and brandy mixed together.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought you were gonna say with egg whites. And I was like, the egg... Oh... It all makes sense.

Em Schulz: You know that? That's a double entendre. You know what I'm saying?

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It sure is.

Em Schulz: But if you boil brandy and ale apparently you're having an 18th century Humpty Dumpty. And so that would... That alcohol if people drank it, they also became Humpty Dumpties in their own way.

Christine Schiefer: Gotcha.

Em Schulz: Others say it, like you said, is King Richard III because...

Christine Schiefer: Richard, okay.

Em Schulz: For a few reasons. One because apparently, he had really bad scoliosis and he had a hump.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh yeah. Yeah. Yikes. Yikes.

Em Schulz: Okay. Umm, I don't even know if that's true. That's just the story that people go off of that he had scoliosis so maybe that was like a really fucked up nickname that they gave him. Umm, also, like you said, one time in battle, Richard, Richard fell off of his horse and he was very quickly sliced up by his enemy's swords and he couldn't get up because he was so sliced into pieces. And so his...

Christine Schiefer: Because he was so sliced. Yeah.

Em Schulz: He was so...

Christine Schiefer: I wish that meant drunk but it means literally sliced. He was so sliced.

Em Schulz: Of also his own just like in the, the, the rhyme his men could not put him back together again. Yuck.

Christine Schiefer: Yikes.

Em Schulz: Umm, and then fun fact, this is where I tell you that people get the egg thought from Humpty Dumpty because Louis Carroll's Looking Through the Looking-Glass', 1871 has, uh, Humpty Dumpty as an egg.

Christine Schiefer: I think, it's just 'Through the Looking-Glass', right?

Em Schulz: What did I say?

Christine Schiefer: Looking through the looking glass. [laughter]

Em Schulz: Oh, I'm so stupid. Sorry. Yeah. 'Through the Looking-Glass'.

Christine Schiefer: No, you're not stupid. I just, I just was like, did I...

Em Schulz: Looking through the looking, that would be unnecessary.

Christine Schiefer: I was like that seems, that seems like the title of somebody's dissertation, [laughter] you know, it's like play on words looking through the looking glass.

Em Schulz: Umm, so there's that. That's Humpty Dumpty. I promise I'm almost done. I know that I've been doing a lot of these but...

Christine Schiefer: No, listen, I'm, I'm in it.

Em Schulz: Well, here's what I've never heard of before. It's called oranges and lemons.

Christine Schiefer: I love it already.

Em Schulz: I, I like a citrus. Uh...

Christine Schiefer: Are you...

Em Schulz: I like oranges. You like lemons?

Christine Schiefer: Okay. I was like, are you sure?

Em Schulz: Uh, but apparently there's this song called Oranges and Lemons. Say the bells. Uh, "Oranges and lemons say the bells of St. Clement's. You owe me five farthings say the bells of St. Martin's. When will you pay me? Say the bells at Old Bailey. When I grow rich, say the bells at Shoreditch. When will that be? Say the bells of Stepney. I do not know say the great bell of Bow... Says the great bell at Bow. Here comes a candle to light you to bed and here comes a chopper to chop off your head!"

Christine Schiefer: Woah.

Em Schulz: "Chip chop chip chop the last one is dead."

Christine Schiefer: Okay. Well it was fun for a minute.

Em Schulz: It's like. Oh, really enjoying all the rhyming.

Christine Schiefer: I was like I feel like I kind of get it. Like there's a, you know, they're probably just referencing, what are they referencing different areas and saying like those...

Em Schulz: Different London churches.

Christine Schiefer: Impoverished. This one is, yeah. Yeah, okay.

Em Schulz: So, uh, yeah, you're pretty much on it. It was the, each phrase was being said by a different London church. And so the thought is that it's this man who's on route passing by each of the London churches on his way to his execution.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Oh okay. Okay.

Em Schulz: And then he gets to the last one and here comes the chopper to chop off your head.

Christine Schiefer: Boy. Oh boy.

Em Schulz: We've also got a classic from 1744. We know it well. London Bridge.

Christine Schiefer: Aha.

Em Schulz: And some think that it refers to the London Bridge's, poor conditions after the Great Fire of London. Umm, others say that it was actually inspired by a real life Viking attack in 1014, uh.

Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.

Em Schulz: Where the London Bridge I guess fell or was trying to be pulled down. And there's kind of speculation about whether or not it's a Viking attack. The only real evidence we have is a very loosely translated poem. And the poem is from 1230. Wow.

Christine Schiefer: Sure.

Em Schulz: Umm, but also if it's from 1230 and the song doesn't come out for like another 500 years and it was loosely translated, they don't really think it was probably.

Christine Schiefer: That is like a thin. Yeah. Yeah. Like a stretch.

Em Schulz: Umm, and another one that people think that this has to do with, with London Bridge just falling down, falling down, they think that this might have to do with the practice at the time of immurement, which was...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I've heard of this.

Em Schulz: A medieval punishment, but also a sacrifice, a human sacrifice where victims were bricked into the foundations of buildings to bless the building and ensure that it would never collapse. Which I don't know how that works.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah it was like a sacrifice...

Em Schulz: It can collapse on a person for sure.

Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] I think it, yeah. Wasn't it like once it's at the end, like, as a, like it's, it's open, it's built now we have to encase someone in it.

Em Schulz: Yeah. People were like...

Christine Schiefer: To make sure it doesn't fall.

Em Schulz: Locked in. Which is why the second part of the rhyme is take the key and lock her up. Lock her up.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yikes.

Em Schulz: Umm, so maybe that was the fair Lady they're talking about as she got locked up.

Christine Schiefer: Oof.

Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, there's no evidence of this actually happening at London Bridge to be clear but...

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: Umm, that is where they think the history is either a Viking attacked... A Viking attack, disrepair from a fire or immurement. Yuck.

Christine Schiefer: The... All bad.

Em Schulz: All bad. Then there's, uh, Rock-a-bye Baby.

Christine Schiefer: Uh-oh.

Em Schulz: 1765...

Christine Schiefer: Last night.

Em Schulz: No this one is... This one is not bad. This one's just drama.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: Umm, in 1765 Rock-a-bye Baby comes out, smash hit I'm sure because...

Christine Schiefer: Smash hit featuring Cardi B. You know, it was gonna be a barrier.

Em Schulz: Featuring what, who was it? The Whomping Willow? Who was it earlier the fuck? Oh, the Mulberry bush. The Mulberry Bush.

Christine Schiefer: I was like the what? Oh, the Mulberry featuring the mulberry mulberry bush.

Em Schulz: Some sort of, some sort of tree.

Christine Schiefer: By the way, by the way. RIP Mulberry Bush. You were not appreciated in your time, you never got. I love that you told me that it was up for Tree of the Year, but then like it obviously didn't win, which is like devastating to hear before it died.

Em Schulz: I didn't say it in those words, but you did catch on to what I was saying. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: I, It just took me a while. It took me like a half hour to be like, well that's pretty Sad.

Em Schulz: Not appreciated in your own time is exactly how I would take, I mean, there is a several hundred year long still standing strong...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, fair point.

Em Schulz: Rhyme about it.

Christine Schiefer: Fair point, fair point.

Em Schulz: I mean, if you know how they say like plants can hear and shit, imagine that Mulberry Bush going fucking nuts from having to hear its own goddamn song sang to it every day.

Christine Schiefer: All day long.

Em Schulz: Oh my God, by the way, its ego was out of control. I'm kind of glad it didn't win the award.

Christine Schiefer: I mean honestly...

Em Schulz: It needed to be humbled.

Christine Schiefer: No wonder, no wonder it just went away in 2017 after it didn't win 2016 Tree of the Year and it was like I'm done.

Em Schulz: Oh so embarrassed, probably.

Christine Schiefer: So embarrassed. I'm done.

Em Schulz: [chuckle] Or how many years does did the Tree Award even exist? And how long did it take for it to even be on the roster? That had to be...

Christine Schiefer: I mean, to be honest like...

Em Schulz: Mortifying.

Christine Schiefer: Who the fuck won the tree of 2016? Because like did they have a song written about them? I fucking doubt it.

Em Schulz: Was it the giving tree?

Christine Schiefer: Was it the Whomping Willow? What? Like, what, what could possibly have gone...

Em Schulz: Why do we know so many famous greeneries? So...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I found it. It's the oldest tree of Bátaszék in Hungary.

Em Schulz: Boo.

Christine Schiefer: Big whoop. Boo.

Em Schulz: Boo.

Christine Schiefer: Lame. Oh they pour wine on it every year. Okay, I'm back in.

Em Schulz: Oh, can you lie under the tree and accidentally catch the wine?

Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, oops [laughter] I'm just reading. Ah.

Em Schulz: Okay, Rock-a-bye Baby. So, uh, drama apparently King James II, he was having a hard time producing an heir and he snuck this is uh, the rumor is that he snuck another man's baby into the castle's birthing chamber to guarantee that the throne would stay under Roman Catholic control. So they tricked everyone.

Christine Schiefer: Jesus.

Em Schulz: That a baby was born by him.

Christine Schiefer: He just like took someone's baby and was like, it's mine.

Em Schulz: I assume there, I, I mean if we're getting really into it, I bet there was a contract or something, I don't know. But also does that mean like the rest of the British line is not like authentically.

Christine Schiefer: Interesting.

Em Schulz: You know what I mean?

Christine Schiefer: Interesting.

Em Schulz: Fun fact. More drama that is still relevant today folks.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm.

Em Schulz: Umm, anyway, so this is what another one of those reaches. But every source says that this is what it's about. But Rock-a-bye Baby. Uh, when the, how is it going, "Rock-a-bye Baby on the treetop when the wind blows, the cradle will rock."

Christine Schiefer: "When wind blows, the cradle will rock. When the bow breaks."

Em Schulz: "The cradle will fall and down will come baby cradle and all."

Christine Schiefer: Yep.

Em Schulz: Okay. So the wind blowing apparently is symbolic of the Protestant forces blowing through to demand a, a change in out of Catholic control.

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: Umm, and when, what else? Oh, the cradle apparently symbolizes the royal house, which later had a big fall.

Christine Schiefer: Sure. They're on the treetop 'cause they're like the big man in charge.

Em Schulz: Of the castle if you will.

Christine Schiefer: The Castle. They're High up there.

Em Schulz: Yeah. But so the cradle high up there did fall and then down came baby cradle and all, which I guess means the king and his people. Umm, the earliest printed version of this song, by the way, did have a warning at the end that says, "This may serve as a warning to the proud and ambitious who climb so high that they generally fall." Whoof!

Christine Schiefer: Whoa. Shots fired.

Em Schulz: Which makes me think that this was not meant for children to begin with but if it was we all know that the children would sing the fun song part and then you with your blacked out eyes would walk up and just read the footnote. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: I'd be like, "Do you know what this is really about?"

Em Schulz: This is for, this is a warning to the proud and ambitious.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Read the end of a pamphlet. Uh...

Em Schulz: Okay. My favorite one, umm, is not my, maybe one of my favorite. This is my favorite one. Jack and Jill.

Christine Schiefer: Hmm.

Em Schulz: We love them.

Christine Schiefer: Love them.

Em Schulz: 1765. Some say that Jack and Jill were not brother and sister doing chores because they were, Jack and Jill went up the hill, to fetch a pail of water. Apparently, they might have actually been a secretive young couple who would sneak up to a hill together, say they were fetching a pail of water and then take 30 minutes you know what I'm saying?

Christine Schiefer: We were just getting a pail of water. And then he fell down. It was a whole thing. Don't even worry about it.

Em Schulz: [laughter] Yeah. Drama. Umm, but apparently, they whatever they were doing up on that hill led to a pregnancy.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp]

Em Schulz: And the theory goes though that umm, the child ended up dying from or the, the, the girl died from childbirth. After giving birth to the baby. And this is like a local, uh, a local lore. I think, it's in Somerset in this area where Jack and Jill is supposedly to said to have happened. And when the, when Jill died from childbirth the town took care of the baby. Where was Jack? The town took care of the Baby...

Christine Schiefer: Jack fell down and broke his crown.

Em Schulz: Yeah. But I always thought a crown is like the one in your tooth not like your whole head.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I thought they meant his head.

Em Schulz: I always thought they meant his tooth. Hmm. Anyway.

Christine Schiefer: They didn't have a crown. They didn't have dentistry back then.

Em Schulz: You're right. You're right. It was probably his head for sure. Umm, but so anyway, the baby is alone in the town. The town takes care of the baby and they just refer to it as Jill's son. And through the power of telephone over the years, apparently a very common last name in that area is Gilson. And they think it came from the town taking care of Gil's son.

Christine Schiefer: Jill's son. Oh, that's cool.

Em Schulz: So if your last name is Gilson in that area, they like to claim that they are of Jack and Jill fame.

Christine Schiefer: That is pretty crazy.

Em Schulz: Another version of Jack and Jill is that it was actually about Louis XVI and his wife Marie Antoinette. Umm, but that doesn't make sense 'cause the references don't make sense. And also Jack and Jill has written 30 years before them. Next.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. [laughter] Yeah. Next.

Em Schulz: This is the one I think will be your favorite of the day. Is that Charles I, King Charles I, had tried to increase taxes on alcohol.

Christine Schiefer: Boo boo.

Em Schulz: But how do I say this? They usually measured alcohol in units at the time known as Jack's or Gill's. Did you know this?

Christine Schiefer: Really? No.

Em Schulz: Apparently. I think it might have been Jack's and Gill's 'cause it's a G but I don't know if it's a hard G or a soft G.

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: Jack's and Gill's. Jack's and Gill's. Umm and so, when he tried to increase the taxes on Jack's and Gill's of alcohol that failed. So he broke his crown or he lost the, the trust of the people like broke his king crown instead of his head crown.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] Ah-huh.

Em Schulz: And to recover, he tried to reduce the price of Jacks and Jills. But...

Christine Schiefer: So Gill went tumbling after.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: Wow.

Em Schulz: And also, I guess he tried to reduce the price of Jack's and then he tried to do it twice as intensely to Gill's. So that's why Jill would come tumbling after Jack, because she had a bigger price decrease.

Christine Schiefer: Whoa. That is bananas. Okay.

Em Schulz: Good time, right?

Christine Schiefer: I had no idea. Good time.

Em Schulz: Okay. We have, I have two more left for you.

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: If you, if you're still cool with that. I know I've been talking for like over an hour now.

Christine Schiefer: Come on. Come on. What do you think we do here?

Em Schulz: I know, I just, this is a lot. Usually, I would've picked like the top five or whatever but I just, I kept finding new ones and I was like, ah, holy shit. Okay. So...

Christine Schiefer: I mean, you are, you are the one who has an appointment to get to, so it's all you baby you, you do you I'll just, uh, I'm here for the ride.

Em Schulz: Well, is there one that I haven't covered yet that you're expecting?

Christine Schiefer: Umm, you know, every time you say one I'm like, oh duh. But I uh, oh I know. Ring around the Rosie.

Em Schulz: Bingo. So 1881 this comes out and they say it. I mean we all have heard the rumors that it just might be about the 1665 great bubonic Plague of London. And the Rosie in Ring Around the Rosie, would be the rash that was 'cause it makes a Rosie colored rash, umm, when you have the plague. And apparently, these rosies did not smell very good because we've talked about this in the past. But with bubonic plague buboes would come out on your body which were these big lumps that would kind of explode and they did not smell very good. So when these rosies would come up with this rose colored rash, and then they would pop and it smelled very bad people would try to conceal the stench with a pocket full of posies.

Christine Schiefer: Wow. Okay.

Em Schulz: And one of the signs was of, uh, one of the signs you were sick. Trust me, you fucking knew if you had the plague. But in case you didn't know you sneezed a lot too. [laughter] And so one of the, one of the phrases in the song is sometimes ashes. Ashes. We all fall down. It was originally probably, Atchoo Atchoo. We all fall down.

Christine Schiefer: No way.

Em Schulz: Like sneezing and then fall down, AKA you are you drop dead. Umm, but it has over time been changed into ashes, ashes. Which is only worse 'cause now it's like oh, you've been cremated because you all fell down.

Christine Schiefer: I was gonna say, I think it, yeah. It still has the same vibe, unfortunately.

Em Schulz: Another source said that it could have been saying rashes, rashes.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: Interesting. Umm, anyway, we all get the gist. We've heard that one a million times but the song wasn't actually documented until hundreds of years after the plague. And the earlier versions are said to have not had these references.

Christine Schiefer: Oh.

Em Schulz: So we don't know if it only maybe changed with the rumor that it had something to do with the plague. And like it ends up...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Like people kind of like fit it. Right. Right, right.

Em Schulz: Umm, but there's also one historian who says that it might have been about the Protestant religious ban on dancing, because people started having this workaround when it came to not having to dance. They would say, "Oh, we're not going dancing. We're just going to have a play party where we do ring games." And a ring game, which is ring around the Rosie is when you would just all stand in a ring and spin in a circle which was different from...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, you do the story time all day.

Em Schulz: [laughter] It's just, we're just spinning. We're not dancing, we're just spinning in a ring versus like, you know, normal dancing. Also music at the time, which they were trying to keep you from dancing from had like musical instruments and a Ring Around the Rosie or ring games where you just singing, then there was no instrument. So it technically wasn't dancing.

Christine Schiefer: It's technically, it's, I love, you know, I love semantics.

Em Schulz: I do. Uh, if we ever have to break a rule, I will be coming to you about how we will be defining the whole thing. You would've made a lovely lawyer.

Christine Schiefer: Thank you. Oh, that's nice. Except that I am way too impatient. I don't like.

Em Schulz: And you cry a lot.

Christine Schiefer: Hard Work. [laughter] And I cry a lot. I'm so sensitive. Yeah. But thank you. That's a very kind thing to say.

Em Schulz: Uh, anyway, so most, the most common theory is that it's the plague version.

Christine Schiefer: Hmm Okay.

Em Schulz: Uh, and then another very cool one that I... Cool to me and you Mary, Mary, quite contrary. Do you know this one?

Christine Schiefer: How does your garden grow?

Em Schulz: Yes. Do you know who it's about?

Christine Schiefer: Uh-uh.

Em Schulz: Girl. Bloody Mary.

Christine Schiefer: Aah!

Em Schulz: Uh, who we have covered, by the way, in a past episode, so please go check out that episode. But she was known for torturing and murdering Protestants.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, Jesus.

Em Schulz: Mary, Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow? With silver...

Christine Schiefer: She's pretty contrary. That's the gentle way to put it.

Em Schulz: Contrary is probably the best word. They could slip into a rhyme without being executed.

Christine Schiefer: With, exactly. Yeah. It's just best word.

Em Schulz: It's like the most diplomatic way you could say it.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. Diplomatic. Yes.

Em Schulz: 'Cause I'm imagining a lot of these were, I mean, how many of these have I gone over where it's like, oh, during like Protestant England.

Christine Schiefer: Some sort of Upheaval or, or yeah, exactly.

Em Schulz: This just feels like a bunch of Catholics got together and wanted to be petty and they were like how can we write vague rhymes about the system?

Christine Schiefer: Catholics? I mean, as a former Catholic myself, I'd be honest, very good at being petty. That is one of the strengths I believe of being Catholic.

Em Schulz: No wonder they were like making their kids sing it too. 'Cause they're like, we have to push the narrative of like let's keep...

Christine Schiefer: They love booze...

Em Schulz: Catholicism alive wherever we can. Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: They love booze, they love drama. They love to, uh, be petty. So it makes sense to me.

Em Schulz: Bingo bango. Well...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Bloody merry uh, AKA Queen Mary the first, I think she was. Umm but the, the, the rhyme goes "Mary, Mary, quite contrary. How does your garden grow? With silver bells and cockleshells and pretty maids all in a row." And it said that these silver bells were thumb screws. She used to torture people. And the cockleshells were torture devices for male genitalia.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp] [gasp] Cockleshells.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: No.

Em Schulz: And after the King's death, uh, so this is how it all kind of came to be very, very quick TLDR. After the king's death, the throne went to Mary, who promptly tried to make England Catholic again. So she was very contrary. And the fact that England was happily Protestant at the time, and she went, eh, we're gonna fix that. So...

Christine Schiefer: Okay.

Em Schulz: When they say, how does your garden grow? Apparently garden, first of all, rhymes with garden gardener, gardenier, or sounds like gardener, which was the name of Mary's only supporter. Also, it could be a dig at her own infertility or garden could be replaced with graveyard in reference to all of her victims.

Christine Schiefer: Right? Like, it's growing. You're adding to your garden. "With all your torture devices." Oh God.

Em Schulz: Umm, and then the last one I'll leave you on, uh, I've got one. And then a fun fact. So here's, I'll leave you on three blind mice.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, Okay.

Em Schulz: From 1805. Although, the original version is apparently from 1609, 200 years before that.

Christine Schiefer: Whoa.

Em Schulz: And it's another Ode to Bloody Mary, because...

Christine Schiefer: Really?

Em Schulz: So she gets two fucking nursery rhymes. That's how you know you made it.

Christine Schiefer: What the fuck. Yeah. That's how you know you've murdered enough people.

Em Schulz: How are trees getting awards, killers are getting rhymes. Like, what do I gotta do?

Christine Schiefer: I'll make you, I already made you a limerick. I don't know what ever happened to it, but I think I made you a limerick.

Em Schulz: I think you did. We'll have to replay that episode at some point. Figure out where it went. But...

Christine Schiefer: There once was a theybie named Em, who...

Em Schulz: Whose pronouns were they and them?

Christine Schiefer: No, shut up. That doesn't work. There once was a theybie named Em, who drank milkshakes, although it caused phlegm. One day they announced, hold on. One day they did say till the end of the day, their pronouns would be they and them. Okay. Let me say that again.

Em Schulz: Them and they.

Christine Schiefer: There once was a, them and they. Wait [laughter] there once was a, there once was a theybie named Em who drank milkshakes, although it caused phlegm. Then one of these days, wait, what did I say?

Em Schulz: You said, and then I, and then Em did say...

Christine Schiefer: Say on one of those days that their pronouns would be they and them. 'Cause it has to rhyme with Em and phlegm.

Em Schulz: What was the announced one? They, Em and phlegm.

Christine Schiefer: One day they, they announced...

Em Schulz: One day they announced that they would like to pounce on puppies that will cuddle with them.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] One day they announced that they changed their pronouns.

Em Schulz: Ooh!

Christine Schiefer: To newly be they and be them.

Em Schulz: Them, okay. That's what's up.

Christine Schiefer: Listen, somebody write that down, Eva.

Em Schulz: And that, by the way, is from Schiefer/she/her. So you know all about those.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] That's...

Em Schulz: You're the, the...

Christine Schiefer: And I'm being, that's me being contrary today.

Em Schulz: The princess of pronouns, uh, before anyone decides to really rip you apart. Okay. Umm.

Christine Schiefer: Ah, help.

Em Schulz: You're only just sitting here writing lyrics about them.

Christine Schiefer: There once there was a girl named Christine, she was canceled.

Em Schulz: For being so mean.

Christine Schiefer: For being so mean. The end.

Em Schulz: Okay. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: That's canceled. She's canceled. There's no, no second verse.

Em Schulz: It's like you, no, 'cause then on paper you would've written more, but it just is strikethroughed.

Christine Schiefer: Oh, that's right. So I don't even, I'm not even gonna say it. It's strike through. Doesn't make, doesn't count.

Em Schulz: Well, back to our, one of our serial killers. She gets two whole nursery rhymes. She gets Mary, Mary quite contrary, and she gets three blind mice. Because in this Ode to Bloody Mary, the trio or the three blind mice is a group of Protestant bishops who famously tries to overthrow her, but were burned at the stake.

Christine Schiefer: Ohh.

Em Schulz: And these three bishops were Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Bradley, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer. And, uh, some say that the Mice's blindness refers to them being blinded by their religious beliefs. And Mary is the farmer's wife in the poem. So the lyrics go, oh, three blind mice, three blind mice. See how they run? See how they run. They all ran after the farmer's wife who cut off their tails with a carving knife. Did you ever, ever see such a sight in your life as three blind mice?

Christine Schiefer: Okay. Yeah. I can see why that would be a direct allegory for. Yeah.

Em Schulz: It's almost like she got, she found out through like the court, the town jester, like, miss Mary, please, please, God, don't kill me. But I have to tell you, someone wrote a rhyme about you, and it's a little inflammatory, and...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it's not really favorable.

Em Schulz: It's not looking good. Please don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you what's going on. And then she went, "I'll write one too." And then she went, have you ever seen such a sight, as three blind mice as I'm carving your fucking tails off? You know, she like had to come back.

Christine Schiefer: She's like, actually, I really like this version. She's like, I actually kinda like this, uh, attention.

Em Schulz: It's like, if this is the game we're gonna play, which like, I don't, I don't condone what she did, but that's some icon shit. If she secretly would like ghost wrote her own like, rebuttal.

Christine Schiefer: She's like, here's verse two.

Em Schulz: [laughter] Yeah. I've like, I like, I'd eat that shit up if it were on social media today.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. This is like a back and forth. Yeah.

Em Schulz: And now I will end on this final fun fact for you about The Muffin Man. The Muffin Man?

Christine Schiefer: [chuckle] Oh.

Em Schulz: The Muffin Man.

Christine Schiefer: Do you know him?

Em Schulz: Uh, he is on Drury Lane, but some older versions say he was on Crumpet Lane, so maybe he's changed addresses.

Christine Schiefer: Alright. I Guess, he's moved.

Em Schulz: In 1820, this, this title comes out. And some say that the Muffin Man was actually inspired by Frederick Thomas Linwood, who was a 16th century muffin seller and murderer.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, I know this one. I think about the kids, right?

Em Schulz: He would allegedly tie a muffin to a string, which by the way, it's not American muffins. They're English muffins. Just so we're clear.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I'm sorry. I don't know why that's so funny to me. But I had an image of the string around a muffin. And then you said that. And I went, oop click and then changed into an English muffin.

Em Schulz: That's why I changed it.

Christine Schiefer: Thank you.

Em Schulz: I was like, it's no lemon poppy seed, my friend. It's that stuff you put, a butter on.

Christine Schiefer: It's a nooks and crannies situation.

Em Schulz: It's, It's too crumbly. It's a little crumbly. Umm, but he would allegedly tie an English muffin into a string, and then he would lure people close enough to beat them to death. And it was...

Christine Schiefer: Oh geez.

Em Schulz: Seven other bakers, which I love that they were like, probably just his competition and 15 kids.

Christine Schiefer: [gasp]

Em Schulz: But here's the thing. That story came from a parody site. Very unlikely to be real. Even I think the man himself. Umm...

Christine Schiefer: Wait, a parody website?

Em Schulz: A parody website like they were, it's like the onion. So, umm...

Christine Schiefer: Oh, okay. So this isn't like an old standing theory. This is just like a, a recent.

Em Schulz: This only came out recently through like TikTok and social media.

Christine Schiefer: I see. I see.

Em Schulz: More likely than anything, the Muffin Man is actually just a poem about 19th century food vendors where a lot of people were working rough hours and they would go to literal English muffin salesman on the street. Umm, but anyway, it's, it's just a fun fact to end on that The Muffin Man could have been a serial killer.

Christine Schiefer: Wow. I love that. Someone was like, I know I'll make a website and spread this malicious rumor about somebody who may or may not have existed.

Em Schulz: Malicious or delicious?

Christine Schiefer: Honestly, Por qué no los dos.

Em Schulz: Por qué no los dos. Umm, and that is the dark side to many nursery rhymes.

Christine Schiefer: I mean, that was beautifully done.

Em Schulz: Thank you. I really did talk for a full over an hour about that, but I, it was worth it.

Christine Schiefer: I, well, you talked, you sang, we laughed, we cried. I feel like this was quite a, uh, an informative episode. So thank you for that.

Em Schulz: Thank you. Thank you.

Christine Schiefer: I have a story for you. Uh, this is a Polish story and, uh, it is not old. I mean, it's old, I guess it's from 2000, but it's not, umm, as classic as your 11th century poems or whatever you were just talking about.

Em Schulz: Nothing is.

Christine Schiefer: Nothing is, umm, this is a story of Krystian Bala, and my cousins are Polish, but I do not speak Polish. So I am apologizing now if I mispronounce certain words because when my cousins speak Polish, I stare at them like, how do you know German, English, Austrian dialect...

Em Schulz: It's amazing.

Christine Schiefer: And Polish? I don't know how you and French. And I'm like, okay, forget it. So, I'm already embarrassed about my pronunciation, I apologize. But I really did try and I did, uh, watch some videos. So on a brisk morning in December, 2000, three friends were out fishing together at the Oder River in southwest Poland. And this part of the river, uh, was actually very remote and very inaccessible. You could only get there by foot after you parked your car like a ways away. And you had to kind of meander through some, umm, like thicket, you know? To get to the actual fishing spot. And not many people made this trek, especially in December. So it was kind of a very secluded and peaceful spot for these three fishermen. The three men, this already is sounding like a nursery rhyme. Three men go to the, the river to fish.

Em Schulz: The word thicket. Immediately, I thought we were in a, in a poem.

Christine Schiefer: Why did I say thicket? Probably because you were telling nursery rhymes and I was thinking like a tisket, a tasket. I don't know.

Em Schulz: The sick part is like, I know you're about to tell me an actual crime. And yet I'm trying to like, I, I keep, everything keeps rhyming in my head. Like I heard crime and then I went rhyme. And then I'm like, it's.

Christine Schiefer: We, like, we want it to be just a classic nursery rhyme based on no real story. But unfortunately, this is factually proven, which is unfortunate. Umm, but yeah, so it, it, it had its moment where it could have turned fun and then it doesn't.

Em Schulz: A Fisherman in a thicket and I'm like, oh, let's...

Christine Schiefer: The Three fishermen in a thicket. How did they get there?

Em Schulz: [laughter] Peep Show.

Christine Schiefer: They were there together 'cause they're gay.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Oh, I wish, I really wish that were the story. Uh, okay. So these three men, umm, were there to fish in the solitude and enjoy some peace. And that's of course when they notice something floating downstream toward them.

Em Schulz: Mm.

Christine Schiefer: So at first it looks like a log, it gets closer and they notice that there's hair attached to it, and it's bobbing above the water. Yikes. So one of the fishermen, uh, takes his fishing rod and kind of like prods at the, the item in the water and they find out that this log is not a log at all, it's human remains. So of course, they immediately contact police and, uh, as soon as police get there and take the body out of the water, they realize this was not a natural drowning. To start with, the man was only wearing a sweatshirt and underpants.

Em Schulz: Oh, whoa. Okay.

Christine Schiefer: And it didn't, yeah. And it didn't seem likely that anyone out for a hike in December in a secluded wooded area would be just in their underwear.

Em Schulz: No.

Christine Schiefer: So it's not like this guy probably just fell in and drowned. But more notably, uh, and more obvious that this was a crime is that he was bound by rope.

Em Schulz: Oh.

Christine Schiefer: And this is pretty upsetting. Uh, the rope had been wrapped around his neck and hands. So that almost like a hog tie...

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: And it was the type of knot where if you struggle, it tightens around your neck.

Em Schulz: Eugh. And I, my first thought too was like, oh, sweatshirt and underwear. I was like, that's what I wear in my own home. So now I'm thinking like someone was in his house when he thought he was like, gonna go to bed or he was in bed.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. You're you're onto it. So, he had been wrapped around with this rope, and this rope had been, like I said, specifically tied, uh, so that even if he moved his arms at all or struggled at all, the rope would tighten like a noose around his neck.

Em Schulz: So he is like essentially killing himself.

Christine Schiefer: Yes, yes, yes. And he would've had to stay completely still to avoid strangling himself to death. Umm, and so investigators immediately consult their missing persons database to narrow down the search to adult men who had been reported missing. And before long they did match the identity to this 35-year-old man named Dariusz Janas, Janiszewski, Janiszewski, Janiszewski. Sorry, to my cousins. Dariusz Dariusz, Jan... [laughter]

Em Schulz: Whoa.

Christine Schiefer: Fuck. Dariusz Janiszewski. I don't know. I'm gonna try that. That sounds right. Uh, this man was a local man from Wrocław Poland, which was, uh, about 60 miles from the spot at the river. And it's pretty tragic. They discovered who it was, and his wife was too distraught to identify his remains. So his own mother had to come and she was able to confirm his identity by recognizing a birthmark on his chest. So this guy, Dariusz, had been missing for a while. He was last seen on November 13th, which was nearly a month earlier. And that is when his wife had reported him missing. The odds were already stacked against investigators because he had been in the river for so long that finding any useful evidence here was unlikely. There was no fingerprints because any DNA or fingerprints had been washed away at this point. Uh, and he had decomposed pretty pretty far along. So a forensics team hiked around the woods, they dove into the river, they scoured the area, but they found absolutely nothing. And of course, Dariusz could not have put himself in the river this way. So they were just at a loss how this had happened. They did an autopsy and an autopsy revealed that there was virtually nothing in his stomach or intestines. And basically, that means whoever had done this to him had most likely starved him for several days before his death.

Em Schulz: Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. They were thinking probably around three days, if not more, with nothing.

Em Schulz: This is so, This is so interesting that it's a man, which...

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, I know, I feel like a lot of times in these kind of brutal, like sadistic cases, you're right, the victims are often women.

Em Schulz: Or like, it's at least a man and a woman. Like he was like the boyfriend of someone that was...

Christine Schiefer: Right.

Em Schulz: The, you know, the victim that maybe was being prioritized in the torture and stuff like that. And so yeah, it's very, I, this makes me feel like there has to be like a girlfriend somewhere. And maybe not, but it's like, I feel like with enough of these stories I'm like stereotyping, which I shouldn't, but it feels like there's another person missing somewhere.

Christine Schiefer: You're like sensing a pattern.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Well, you're probably onto something. Umm, and we will definitely get there. Umm, but before that, I'll tell you probably one of the saddest parts, which is that the volume of water that they found in his lungs indicated that he was still alive when he was tossed into the river.

Em Schulz: [gasp] And then he's told not to struggle or else he'll choke himself.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So he basically ends up in the river with a hogtied like that so that any struggling, which you would obviously do innately...

Em Schulz: By being sinking in the water.

Christine Schiefer: Would strangle you at the same time as you're literally drowning. So, very fucked up, very dark, just sadistic, really beyond sadistic. So his cause of death actually wasn't a asphyxiation or strangulation, but drowning. And people were just so taken aback by the cruelty of this, umm, just how sadistic it really was. And the fact that Dariusz himself was so well loved by family and friends. His wife reported they were in a happy marriage and planning to adopt a child soon.

Em Schulz: Mm.

Christine Schiefer: So they were growing their family. He was a successful business owner. He had many healthy and happy friendships and seemed pretty popular. And they couldn't really find anyone who had any negative things to say about him. There was no evidence, no forensic evidence pointing to suspects. But there was also no motive among his social circle. So they just couldn't understand who not only would want him dead, but would want him to like die in such a sadistic, brutal way. So one criminal psychologist said that the murder must have involved a great deal of anger. And I think you probably picked up on that as well...

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: With the fact that this was such a, like, thought out, premeditated situation. Umm, it seemed very personal. Like somebody planned this very carefully and police considered at first that it could have been a gang execution. Umm, like maybe Dariusz was involved in some sort of organized criminal activity and it went south. Uh, but the more they dug, the more that kind of just started to feel unrealistic and like probably isn't what really happened. Umm, he had no prior criminal history. They couldn't even find a link between him and any sort of organized crime group. His record, his life appeared virtually flawless. And that's it. They felt like they had hit a dead end. And so the case just began to grow cold. The media at this point when the case was kind of floundering, described the murder as quote, "The perfect crime." And investigators were feeling very, umm, pressured by the public to make some sort of break, to make any sort of inroad and find any sort of clue they possibly could. So what they did, because the case was getting cold, is they turned to Poland's most popular crime show. Uh, whose host was Michał Fajbusiewicz, Christine, I'm so sorry. Michał Fajbusiewicz.

Em Schulz: I Gotta tell you. I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of lang, uh, languages that we hear more often that we are kind of able to fake mimic and hope that we're doing it right. Polish is outta control. That's like, I just never hear that one.

Christine Schiefer: Polish. I know. And I, I feel like I should know it better. Umm, but I know, let's call him Michał, Michał. That's close enough, right?

Em Schulz: Sure. Sure.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. So media exposure had helped solve Polish criminal cases before. So investigators were like, "Hey, maybe if he covers this on his crime show, it'll get us some leads." Right? It's kind of like America's Most Wanted.

Em Schulz: I was gonna say, is there a a name for it or.

Christine Schiefer: Uh...

Em Schulz: Don't say it, nevermind. Don't say it. It's probably Polish.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] It's called, no.

Em Schulz: Poland's Most wanted.

Christine Schiefer: Poland's, [laughter] that's good. So they thought, well, maybe we'll get some leads this way. Umm, and maybe somebody, maybe somebody's memory would be jogged. Maybe they saw something the night that he disappeared and they'll reach out and call in. Uh, perhaps there were witnesses out there they didn't know that had seen something significant, didn't realize it. And would, you know, a bell would ring when they saw this. So they put this episode out and not only the host, but investigators were genuinely shocked when they got nothing. Not a single, like there were a couple tips that came in, but not a single one was useful. Every single one was a dead end. And they thought, you know what? Forget it. We're gonna abandon this case. This was around Midsummer 2001. So only like six, seven months later, they were like, you know what? This is going nowhere. So for two years, Dariusz's loved ones were left to wonder what happened. And basically told, were told, well, we'll probably never find out. So 2003, comes around. Sorry, my nose. Oh my God.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: I'm sorry. Jack.

Em Schulz: It's the full body contorting.

[laughter]

Christine Schiefer: [cackle] It's so gross. I'm so glad this microphone has a mute button everybody.

Em Schulz: It's like, it's like, 'cause you do this and then you do this, you go.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] It's 'cause I don't want you to see me, but it probably looks like I'm having like a fit. Umm, I'm sorry, everyone my nose. I have like really bad allergies now that, umm, it's springtime and I think that, uh, I'm trying to spare everyone from my nose blowing. But poor Em has to like, I mute my microphone, but then my body just somehow reenacts everything. [laughter]

Em Schulz: If you just sat still, I wouldn't care as much, but because of the amount you're moving, I kind of want to hear what's going on, you know.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I know it's like a sick fascination. Like I can't look away what is going on over there.

Em Schulz: It's like a train wreck. Yeah. It just...

Christine Schiefer: It is a train wreck. Yeah, it is a train wreck. Umm, so I apologize. Uh, if there are kind of breaks like that folks, it's probably 'cause I'm blowing my nose and I do apologize. Umm, I'm just trying not to sound too stuffy. Anyway, okay. So they, two years go by, right? So in 2003, police begin a routine review of open and cold cases. Umm, basically they do this in a lot of places around the world. Just kind of open up some old cases, get some fresh eyes, see if anyone can like, I don't know.

Em Schulz: That's smart.

Christine Schiefer: Catch anything. Yeah, I think so.

Em Schulz: It's Like, it's like do like doing a literal puzzle and having people come and check the the pieces and see if they can spot anything.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's like taking, stepping away, right? And then like having somebody else come in and take a look. Exactly. It's fresh eyes. And thankfully, this actually worked. So the new detective who came in and took a look at these details, he reviewed all the documents and noticed something that he found a bit strange. What he found out is that Dariusz had taken several calls on a mobile phone on a cell phone the day he disappeared. The caller had originally contacted his office where his mother actually worked as a receptionist. And his mother said that when this caller had called the office, he seemed angry and impatient. He demanded to talk to Dariusz himself.

Em Schulz: Hmm.

Christine Schiefer: So she gave him Dariusz's cell phone number, and then presumably Dariusz received several calls from this phone number. So police determined that the calls had come from a phone booth near Dariusz's workplace near his business. Today, you know, a cell phone might be like an obvious part of a case, but back then, uh, you know, cell phones were not as common in 2000. And the fact that this had kind of been, umm, glossed over was...

Em Schulz: A sign of the times, also.

Christine Schiefer: A sign of the times. Yeah. It's like, oh, well that doesn't seem relevant, but like nowadays, of course if a cell phone is involved, it's like, oh, we have to track every call and see who texted whom and what have you. So of course now that there is this, uh, cell phone involved, the detective is like, well, let's see if we can figure out anything specific about it. And it had never been accounted for during the investigation. And of course they thought, well, maybe, I mean, odds are ended up at the bottom of the river, but when divers had kind of scoured the river, they hadn't found it. So they thought, well, there's still a chance that this cell phone is out there somewhere. So anything might have happened to it at this point, but especially because it's been like three years. Right? But its, absence was the first clue for the case in years because they knew he had a cell phone, but they had never found it.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: And it had never been accounted for. So there's like a little gap they wanted to fill in. So this investigator who noticed it, decided to pursue it. He contacted Dariusz's wife, who incredibly still had the printed receipt for the phone's original purpose.

Em Schulz: Oh my God. Wow.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. And you know how that's, that's on not throwing anything away, that's that's me. That's me.

Em Schulz: You know what? That's right. That's, that's how Christine's gonna save the world. Not me.

Christine Schiefer: That's how, that's how I operate.

Em Schulz: I throw things away the second I don't see a use to them at all.

Christine Schiefer: Couldn't be Em. Umm, I'm like, well, what if someone gets murdered and I need this. Like, that's how my brain works, which is.

Em Schulz: And sad part of me is like, that's a great point. That's a really good point.

Christine Schiefer: It's, it's sickeningly. Unfortunately, sometimes the case, like right now. The receipt showed the phone's IMEI number, which if anybody knows, that's basically just a tracking number for the specific phone. Umm, and so it would show where it would be able to track the phone if it were still in use. So investigators obviously assume that whoever had killed Dariusz would've destroyed the phone long ago. So when they looked up this IMEI number, they were shocked to see that the phone was still in use.

Em Schulz: Oh shit. Yeah. I would've thought for sure. I was like, why even, look, that thing's gone.

Christine Schiefer: Why would you even bother? Exactly. However, but then again, if you think about it, 2000 people didn't really know that a phone... You know what I mean? Like probably whoever did it, didn't know like, necessarily that this phone would be such a big clue for the police.

Em Schulz: Yeah. Just felt like, oh, here's a trophy of my kill.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. It's just, it's just a piece of junk or whatever. So actually, uh, someone had used the day they looked it up, they found out someone had used it to make a call that day. So it was very much still in use.

Em Schulz: Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: So they tracked down the phone's current owner, and they learned that since Dariusz's death, you know, three-ish years earlier, it had actually been bought and sold several times.

Em Schulz: [gasp] Ew, it's, that's the same thought of like, could you wear a serial killer shirt? It's like, could you to know that I've been texting, like my face has been pressed against the, like the face of somebody else who, ugh.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Who was so brutally murdered. It is a dark thought. So this poor guy or person who has the phone now is like, what? I just bought it from somebody, you know, they, they have no clue. And so they rule this person out as a suspect, and they begin moving back to see who sold it to whom? To whom, to whom? So one by one, the phone's previous owners were crossed off the list and one of the detectives later said that it was their job to quote, "become the devil's advocate and try to look for any el element that would prove a suspect's innocence." So every time they got to a new person who like had, had owned the phone at some point, or had sold the phone, they had to basically rule them out as a suspect. They wanted to find a lead, but they wanted to make sure that they were going tracing it all the way back to the person who had taken the phone from Dariusz to begin with. So finally they did, they got to the end of the line. It turns out a businessman had bought the phone on an online auction only days after Dariusz was killed. So they were able to track all the way to the actual internet post.

Em Schulz: That's crazy.

Christine Schiefer: Where this phone, isn't it? Where the phone had been sold only days after. And so they knew whoever had sold this phone only days later probably is the one who had something to do with it, or at least had some connection. And the user who had sold the device was called ChrisB7.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: And ChrisB7 had sold the phone for roughly 80 bucks. So basically, to answer your question, or not a question, but when you said like, oh, it's just a trophy or whatever, he basically was like, I could just get a couple of bucks off this. Right? This is just, just I'll sell it...

Em Schulz: Right, yeah. Just like, Oh, here's some...

Christine Schiefer: Without thinking.

Em Schulz: Junk, I need to get rid of.

Christine Schiefer: Exactly. And I, I it's used, it's, it's worth something. I might as well get money for it. So as far as they could tell this seller, ChrisB7 would have been the first person to own the phone after Dariusz's death, which is pretty telling. And when they looked into it, uh, they found out that the account ChrisB7 belonged to 30-year-old Krystian Bala. They soon discovered that Krystian was an author who used a blog to promote his book. His book, Em, oh boy. His book, you know, when men think they're...

Em Schulz: [laughter] Don't even finish the sentence. Yeah, I know.

Christine Schiefer: Really.. Really Deep. Right. But this, this fucking guy, he had written a book. Okay? It was a lurid first person novel told from the point of a view, point of view of a man named Chris. Now, this guy's name is Krystian, K-R-Y-S-T-I-A-N. But the main character of the book is Chris, C-H-R-I-S. So he's basically using like the...

Em Schulz: Oh, he, he fooled us.

Christine Schiefer: Right. Like the Americanized version of his own name as the, uh, which is also interestingly the name of the user. ChrisB7 is spelled with a C-H as well. So he used the English version of his own name and the same name he used on the auction website. And the story followed Chris, this character as he murdered a woman, which he described in this like lurid, like lustful sexual way of murder.

Em Schulz: Like a passion kind of thing.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Well, just like, he just wrote it in these really graphic details.

Em Schulz: Oh.

Christine Schiefer: Like just very, uh, unpleasant and, and fucked up. So the book apparently straddled the line between murder and sex and investigators said there was quote, "Not a great deal of plot." Which I love. However, one point that did stick out to them was the fact that the narrator had sold a murder weapon on an online auction site. And they were like, "Well that seems a little familiar and a little on the nose."

Em Schulz: Did it say like, really used in a murder. Like what did did the post say?

Christine Schiefer: Oh, the post? Just said, oh, the post was just selling a cell phone, I don't think there was any information on the post about where the cell phone...

Em Schulz: Okay. Didn't know if it was like he was really into giving people a story with this item?

Christine Schiefer: No, I think in the book he sold, I think the knife that was used in the murder on the internet, but in real life, it was the cellphone of the victim. And so additionally, interestingly enough, the narrator also used rope to bind his victim before the killing. And the murder in the book was by no means like a one-to-one comparison, it wasn't exactly word-for-word what had happened to Dariusz, and while of course, it was a red flag that the first person to use and sell the phone after the killing also published a murder novel starring a protagonist with the same name, umm, it wasn't like evidence that he was a real life murderer.

Em Schulz: Just odd.

Christine Schiefer: It was just an odd... I guess it's evidence in the way of, it's evidence, but it's not like... What's the word?

Em Schulz: Damning evidence. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: It's not damning evidence. Yeah, sure. It's not no smoking gun, so to speak. So plenty of authors, you know, write about things they would never do in real life, obviously, so all you have to say this is fiction, and you know, there you have it. But a criminal psychologist who was brought on to the case to analyze this character, Chris, in the book for similarities to Krystian, acknowledge that there were quite a few similarities, but again like, if you're writing a book, you write it based on your own point of view, and uh, it would make sense that the main character has a lot of similar traits. Still the investigators felt like this was something, this was a lead. They were compelled by this book and above all, by the fact that Krystian still seemed to be the first person to have the phone, so at the very least, they wanted to know how the fuck he got his hands on that phone.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: So the issue was, they couldn't find him.

Em Schulz: Curiouser.

Christine Schiefer: Curiouser and curiouser. Krystian had actually left Poland several years ago, only months after the killing. How convenient. And they absolutely did not have enough evidence to pursue him internationally, right? Like they didn't have the jurisdiction to like track him down, and so instead they decided to just wait. They were like, you know what? We're gonna wait and see if he comes back. And of course, he did. Because they always come back. Krystian's passport was flagged in 2005 when he arrived at Polish customs coming from outside the country. The balls on this guy to fly back into the country and...

Em Schulz: You would think if you escaped the country in time to not get caught, you have to imagine, while I was gone, they came up with some leads and maybe I shouldn't...

Christine Schiefer: Yeah.

Em Schulz: Come back.

Christine Schiefer: You'd think so. You'd think so. And I mean, yeah, okay, I was gonna go on another rant about how sensational he thought he was, but... Well, I guess with the media saying, oh, this was the perfect crime, he probably was like, yeah, it was a perfect crime, you know, probably got in his head.

Em Schulz: Oh sure.

Christine Schiefer: And what's more is they had never talked to his family because they didn't wanna tip them off, so they never told his family and friends like, we're looking for him, right because they were like, well, then he might never come back. So they just laid low and they waited. And so, when he did come back into the country and his passport was flagged, police collected him right away and brought him in for questioning. The weirdest part is that right off the bat, he confessed to the murder, and then he panicked and he nearly fainted and he said, "I need medical attention, and he retracted his confession." And they were like, wait, wait. Okay.

Em Schulz: Hmm.

Christine Schiefer: He retracted the confession. So now he's saying, "No, no, no, I did not do that. I did not do anything." And so, now the investigators, obviously, the burden of proof falls on them, and this is a huge problem because they do not have anything to link Krystian to Dariusz, but this cell phone, and they had absolutely no motive that would have driven Krystian to kill Dariusz so ruthlessly. So they held him for 48 hours, but then they were forced to release him because he had taken back his confession.

Em Schulz: Did he just try to say it was like a mental... He just had a breakdown or something, or.

Christine Schiefer: I don't think he even... As far as I know, we don't know, except he just apparently blurted out and then said, oh, never mind.

Em Schulz: What a, what a strange occurrence. I would be like...

Christine Schiefer: What an odd thing to just blurt out by mistake.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. Yeah. But they couldn't do anything about it. They're like, well, technically, he's saying he didn't do it. So they kept... Even though they had to release him, they didn't give up, they began questioning people in his life, and they would often bring up his novel, which by the way, what I called Amok, A-M-O-K.

Em Schulz: M-A-O-K.

Christine Schiefer: A-M-O-K, like run, to run amock...

Em Schulz: Oh, like, like the thing that he's doing right now.

Christine Schiefer: Correct.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: So people begin... [laughter] You nailed it. What are you, a literary critic? Jeez.

Em Schulz: I mean, I do... I did read a lot of poetry in my time and by in my time, I meant since this morning. So...

Christine Schiefer: [laughter] I was gonna say last night. Yeah. [laughter] So also children's...

Em Schulz: Children's but rhyming.

Christine Schiefer: But still. Yeah.

Em Schulz: But really is it children's after everything we just learned?

Christine Schiefer: Great point. Very mature content.

Em Schulz: Thank you.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. So people began to believe that Krystian was being... This is eye roll worthy, persecuted for his artistic expression, and...

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: I know...

Em Schulz: I don't even have that in me.

Christine Schiefer: I sense it. I know. You you started to roll your eyes and then you just closed them and I was like, is this the part where you fall asleep because you're just over it.

Em Schulz: [laughter] It sounds like I could fall asleep right now and then wake up in a little bit and still be caught up, so, uh...

Christine Schiefer: And it'll still be happening. Yeah.

Em Schulz: I'll still be hearing about this fucking book. So...

Christine Schiefer: This fucking book. So it apparently had a lot of anti-Catholic rhetoric, speaking of nursery rhymes...

Em Schulz: I know, wow.

Christine Schiefer: Which Krystian's like supporters and friends thought like, you know what, this is a Catholic country, Poland, and so they're just... Authorities are just offended that this is a Catholic, you know, they're calling out Catholicism...

Em Schulz: Mmm.

Christine Schiefer:And so he's just being persecuted and... That's a bunch of bullshit. But anyway, Krystian loved this new theory, and he began telling people that, "Oh, I'm the victim. They violently arrested me and they had attacked me, even though there's no proof of any of that." A woman that he was seeing actually launched her own defense campaign on his behalf, and people joined forces to support him and...

Em Schulz: Wow.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, and be like... He he wrote a piece of fiction and now he's being persecuted, you know they spun it as like that angle.

Em Schulz: I love... I mean, I hate...

Christine Schiefer: So, pretty let...

Em Schulz: I hate, but I love when people try to claim being a victim like as they're doing the things they're doing. Anyway.

Christine Schiefer: Especially, when you so blatantly have a real victim like...

Em Schulz: Yeah, like couldn't have a more literal victim. Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: Literal victim. Yeah, so letters start coming into the Polish justice ministry from around the world demanding that they look into this case which was targeting a man for writing fiction, and and this, of course, unfortunately, this book started flying off the shelves and was an overnight bestseller, and I'm sure Krystian thought he was the next, the second coming, you know.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: So the public began to speak more and more out, speak out more and more, excuse me, against the case believing like the police were harassing an innocent man, umm, and while police did not technically have the evidence to, umm, make an official arrest, they believe that they just had to find a motive, and they could break this case wide open.

Em Schulz: Wide open.

Christine Schiefer: Wide open. So the lead investigator believed in his gut that jealousy was the motive behind the killing. He had spent hours and hours reading and analyzing Krystian's book to try and understand Krystian's point of view on murder and how his mind worked, which is so fascinating to me. So he took away from the book a theme of acute jealousy, and he thought to himself, I think whoever wrote this fucking book has a, has a problem with jealousy. And he suspected that this killer would play a role in uncovering the motive in the real life killing of Dariusz. So, he just needed to find out why Krystian was so jealous and how Krystian even knew Dariusz in the first place. Meanwhile, Krystian underwent psychiatric evaluations and was found to have very... This is in quotes... "Very specific sociopathic behavior."

Em Schulz: Very specific. Oh God.

Christine Schiefer: Very specific sociopathic behavior.

Em Schulz: Alright.

Christine Schiefer: So they're zeroed in on this guy. Uh, apparently going back through his history, this shouldn't be that surprising to us now, but he liked to think he was smarter than everyone else all through his life as a child, for example...

Em Schulz: What?

Christine Schiefer: I know you're, you're, you're shocked. As a child, he was a star pupil, he was well-behaved, he didn't have any like behavioral issues. He initially went to college for philosophy and wanted uh, to create a career in academia. He was very popular among his professors and peers. They thought he was studious, intelligent, funny, and just someone fun to have around. However, he also had a reputation as a womanizer, but on that front, women loved him. He was able to pick up whoever he wanted and get rid of them just as easily.

Em Schulz: Apparently, so.

Christine Schiefer: He often told... Yeah. And he often told his friends, "I will not live long, but I will live furiously" with, in any other circumstance, I might find that charming, but not this one." So in 1995, Krystian was 23 and he married his childhood sweetheart Stanislava, who went by Stacia, and they had a son together. So he seemed to have it all. He had this like career. He had a classic like lifelong romance. He had a loving family, a so, a son on the way, he was confident, intelligent, popular, he was attractive, but the people who knew him also noticed some cracks in his veneer. He was enrolled in this PhD program at school, but because of his new and young family, he kind of had to move away from getting his PhD even though that was his dream, because he had to support his family, so he expected Stacia to be a stay-at-home mother and housewife. So he thought, I have to support the family, I'm gonna quit school and open a business. And he told people he could do anything he wanted. And he really believed that...

Em Schulz: Oof.

Christine Schiefer: He believed he had a superior intellect, but unfortunately for him, Krystian had no sense for business. He apparently never invested any of his profits back into the business, and so very quickly he had to file for bankruptcy, and so that was a big fail. Uh, but of course, to him, that was not his failure, that was a failure on the part of everybody else around him.

Em Schulz: Of course. He's the victim.

Christine Schiefer: You know, that kind of guy. He is a victim. Exactly. Umm, he was also extremely confrontational, had a very short temper, and he was a serial cheater. He had tons of affairs and then he would project them, which we see sometimes back on to Stacia, and he would accuse her of being the unfaithful one.

Em Schulz: Of course.

Christine Schiefer: He was also a liar, and he lied so often that sometimes he believed his own lies and just kind of lived in this like pathological fantasy land. He also made up stories about his life to seem more impressive, and he would roll with them until he had almost convinced himself that these stories about himself were true. He followed his wife to a bar once, and then when he arrived, he publicly accused her of cheating and then threatened to kill the man she was supposedly seeing behind his back.

Em Schulz: He just wanted a reason to be violent. That was it.

Christine Schiefer: I agree with you.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: I agree with you 100%. And eventually, he was so fed up with this alleged cheating that she probably wasn't even doing that he simply forced her to stay home at all times. He basically just trapped her at home.

Em Schulz: Wow.

Christine Schiefer: And when she couldn't stand it anymore, she divorced him, but Krystian refused to just leave her alone and let her go. He became obsessive, he stalked her, he did whatever he could to keep control over her.

Em Schulz: Yuck.

Christine Schiefer: And then one day, she met a man named Dariusz Janiszewski.

Em Schulz: Oh, I fucking knew there was a girl involved.

Christine Schiefer: You did. You did.

Em Schulz: So there's no... This never happens to just a man, which like they does, but not... We've done enough of these, where I'm like uh, there's gotta be...

Christine Schiefer: You know the dynamic.

Em Schulz: I know a common dynamic and yeah...

Christine Schiefer: A common dynamic.

Em Schulz: Where the hell is the woman?

Christine Schiefer: Here she is. Totally innocent, but somehow roped in all this nonsense, which is how it goes. So of course, she and Dariusz hit it off, but when Stacia learns that Dariusz is married, by the way, remember he is in a happy marriage and adopting a son soon...

Em Schulz: Uh-oh.

Christine Schiefer: She's like no, no, no, I'm calling, I'm calling this off before anything happens, because she knew all too well what it was like to be the wife of someone having an affair. And she's like, I'm not gonna be involved in that. So soon afterward, Dariusz seemed to kind of mend his relationship with his wife, and he was no longer pursuing extramarital affairs and Stacia was out of the picture. It was a very brief... Just a brief, they got to know each other...

Em Schulz: Fleeting.

Christine Schiefer: And then they parted ways. Fleeting, yes. But Krystian, the stalker had already found out about Dariusz and he could not let it go. It seemed that investigators' suspicions were correct. The motive was jealousy, and when the case went to trial, finally, it became a media frenzy throughout Europe. The, the news outlets just love the the hook of a murderer writing about killing and then doing the killing. I mean, it's it's an outlandish story, you know, it's like... What do you call it? Truth is stranger than fiction. Umm, and like I said, this novel becomes an overnight bestseller, people are just fascinated by this, but the court decided during the trial that the book itself was not going to be admissible as evidence. And the prosecution agreed, they were like, you know what, this this is just gonna distract the jury from from the case at hand. But Krystian wanted to talk about it. He believed he was only on... Well, I don't know if he believed it, but he liked to say he was only on trial because he had written this book and that he was an artist being persecuted for writing fiction, you know.

Em Schulz: Of course.

Christine Schiefer: All that bullshit. So he kept trying to bring it up and he was mocking the investigation on the stand, and finally, the judge was like, "We are not here to talk about your book, we're here to talk about this real crime that happened." And so, despite Krystian's assumptions, they did have some compelling evidence, and that was the phone calls made to Dariusz's cellphone just before he went missing.

Em Schulz: Oh shit. He didn't know about this the whole time?

Christine Schiefer: He did not know about that.

Em Schulz: Hmm, interesting.

Christine Schiefer: He knew that they had tracked his phone down.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: The cell phone at least that he had stolen, umm, but then they said, "Hey, we know that this phone came from a phone booth, but what's more, we know that the caller had used a phone card to operate the phone, and that same phone card had been used to make phone calls to Krystian's parents, colleagues and friends."

Em Schulz: Mm, okay.

Christine Schiefer: Ding, ding, ding. Who's the common denominator? So Krystian continued to testify that he had never met Dariusz, never even heard of him, but a friend of Krystian's ex-wife told a different story. She said, well, Krystian had actually come and asked her about Dariusz, and he had a lot of questions. Where did Dariusz work? What did he do? Hey, if I wanna meet Dariusz, where can I find him?

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: And this woman was like, "Dude, I'm not getting involved in this." Finally, investigators had searched for evidence at Krystian's parents' house, and it had been five years since the murder, so they thought they probably won't find anything, but like you alluded to earlier Em, he had kept some mementos from his crime.

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: Dummy. He had taken a pen and a business card from Dariusz's company proving at the very least that it was a lie, that he had no idea who Darius was.

Em Schulz: Right, right, right.

Christine Schiefer: What's more, he also kept a notebook about Darius and listed out all the things he knew about him.

Em Schulz: Are you fucking kidding me? That's like... Now, that's the smoking gun. That right there.

Christine Schiefer: It's like 10 things I know about Dariusz.

Em Schulz: 10 ways I plan on hurting Dariusz because I'm jealous and don't like him.

Christine Schiefer: Yes. Yeah, I'm jealous and I don't like him. Really, that is exactly how it went. They found this... And he's like, I've never heard of the guy. And they're like, why do we have a notebook where you write down all the things that you know about this guy?

Em Schulz: Yeah, exactly. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: Nice try. Nice try, guy. Police also found evidence on Krystian's computer that he was stalking Stacia's new boyfriend, uh-oh, and he had typed notes on the man as well, just like...

Em Schulz: Come on.

Christine Schiefer: He had the notebook on Dariusz. And the notes on the new man that she was with, said single, 34 years old. His mom died when he was eight. Apparently works at the railway company, probably as a train driver, but I'm not sure. He's not even good at being like a PI, you know.

Em Schulz: No.

Christine Schiefer: Like that's big whoop. I could have figured that out. So when he found out that this new boyfriend, Harry, uh, was in a particular online chat room, he actually made an account, joined the chat room and posted, sorry to bother you, but I'm looking for Harry. Does anyone know him?

Em Schulz: Okay.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, so he's like the least subtle guy ever. And finally, one of Krystian's own friends testified against him. Telling the court that just weeks after the murder, they were out with Krystian when he began bragging about how much control he had over his ex-wife's life. He told his friend that he had killed one of her lovers with a rope.

Em Schulz: Bad.

Christine Schiefer: Bad.

Em Schulz: Bad.

Christine Schiefer: And basically, when this was announced that trial, it was the final nail in the coffin for his defense team. He had undone his own case with all his over confidence, all his bullshit thinking he was smarter than everybody. Investigators believed he simply overestimated himself and his intelligence. He thought he was untouchable. He thought he was too smart, and of course, looking back, if he had not sold the phone, if he had just tossed it in the river, he probably never would have gotten caught because they wouldn't have been able to track...

Em Schulz: Isn't that crazy that... Like he was trying to get rid of it too, just...

Christine Schiefer: Exactly.

Em Schulz: Just did it the wrong way.

Christine Schiefer: Exactly. He just wanted the extra 80 bucks off it.

Em Schulz: Mm-hmm.

Christine Schiefer: Which was like moron. So yeah, he probably would never... They probably would have never even gotten his name, let alone like that he had anything to do with this murder; however, some experts who evaluated Krystian believed he sold the phone intentionally to get some sort of compensation from Dariusz like, oh, he owes me this last thing even though he had taken his life, some psychiatrists who studied, not studied him, but like you know, had appointments with him, basically determined that this was more motivate... His selling the phone was more motivated by like, now for my final act, I get some cash out of this deal.

Em Schulz: Yeah.

Christine Schiefer: And either way, he felt entitled to everything he could take beyond Dariusz's life even, believe it or not, and despite that, you know, if he had never even returned to Poland, he probably would have been completely free for the rest of his life. But in his mind, he just was easy-breezy, and as far as he was aware, he had gotten away with what reporters were calling the perfect crime. So in September of 2007, Krystian was sentenced to 25 years in prison, which is the minimum term for life imprisonment in Poland, umm the death penalty is outlawed there, and despite the evidence and the conviction, of course, Krystian continues to maintain his innocence. Woe is me!

Em Schulz: Yeah. [laughter]

Christine Schiefer: In an interview, he said...

Em Schulz: I don't care.

Christine Schiefer: I don't care. In an interview, he said, they have ruined my personal life, my professional life, my family life for what? For nothing.

Em Schulz: Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: He also told David Grant of The New Yorker, I am being sentenced to prison for 25 years for writing a book!

Em Schulz: For writing a book.

Christine Schiefer: Idiot. And that is the story of Krystian Bala.

Em Schulz: I like, you know, it makes me happy. I think that was the first time we've ever ended a story with the last word being idiot.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter]

Em Schulz: That was a good way to end it.

Christine Schiefer: Probably, true.

Em Schulz: It's very true.

Christine Schiefer: We should check the transcript. We should check the transcript 'cause somehow I don't... I feel like there must have been another idiot somewhere out there that I shouted at the end.

Em Schulz: If you check the transcript, you have to see that I wrote it in red pen at the bottom, just to...

Christine Schiefer: On all my notes, just my story.

Em Schulz: Or the stenographer just kept writing idiot without anyone like asking about that.

Christine Schiefer: That's possible. Umm...

Em Schulz: Oh my God.

Christine Schiefer: Or the AI chat bot that does the transcriptions is like idiot.

Em Schulz: [laughter] Oh, the privilege.

Christine Schiefer: It's disgusting.

Em Schulz: And the narcissism and the desperation to be a victim, and the complete lack of awareness of their part in the responsibility or their lack of empathy. I mean, the list goes on.

Christine Schiefer: You can even see it with when his business failed and he's like, everybody made my business fail. You know, it's like, wow, this guy has no clue. Is out of touch.

Em Schulz: I was just watching TikToks about narcissism and there's... Uh, one of them is called the the vulnerable narcissist, where it's like every...

Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.

Em Schulz: It's like, oh, I couldn't do this because everyone else was in my way and everyone was taking this for me, and everyone bothered me and everyone... It's everyone else's fault, not me.

Christine Schiefer: Shifting the blame, always. Yeah.

Em Schulz: Yes, yes. Umm, so apparently, it's a very specific type of narcissist.

Christine Schiefer: Well, remember they said he's a specific type of sociopath.

Em Schulz: Oh yeah. Okay, hey, maybe we're on to something there.

Christine Schiefer: Uh-huh.

Em Schulz: Wow. What good story, Christine. That was... I feel like that was one of your shorter ones, but it was still jam-packed.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah, it was a, it was a doozy. I feel like the last story I did was like 10 pages and this one was eight, so it's still pretty long, but...

Em Schulz: How do you feel when you see your notes in there like a certain length? Is there a certain length where you go, oh boy, that's gonna be a long one.

Christine Schiefer: Yeah. It's like anything over five and a half.

Em Schulz: Really? 'Cause... Okay, wow. See for me...

Christine Schiefer: Five and a half, I'm like this is pretty short.

Em Schulz: What is the font size? Dare I ask.

Christine Schiefer: I believe it's 11 Arial.

Em Schulz: Mine is 8 Arial. So if mine goes over a page and a half, I have a problem.

Christine Schiefer: You're a lunatic with your, with your size...

Em Schulz: I zoom in to be fair, so it never looks like it's eight.

Christine Schiefer: Okay, okay, okay, okay, but you want... Oh, you do it small so it fits on the page. Gotcha.

Em Schulz: I have a, I have a certain in 8 point font, if it's over a page and a half, I get really nervous. It's, it's more just to see like this the the amount of... It's more about the minutes.

Christine Schiefer: Well, yeah, and then when it's so small, it looks like just like a big block of text that's very intimidating.

Em Schulz: It doesn't till you zoom in and then it just looks like as big as you...

Christine Schiefer: And then it says like, fun fact, Ms. Mary Mack had Bloody Mary...

Em Schulz: She actually had buttons all down her back.

Christine Schiefer: Wow, I mean, listen, that could have been about Bloody Mary too, I'm just saying.

Em Schulz: It could have been. I wonder about Ms. Mary Mack in a lot of ways. Was she doing okay?

Christine Schiefer: I think about her all the time.

Em Schulz: I do too, I was like, did she ever change her wardrobe or like is she just gonna keep cycling the same dress over and over.

Christine Schiefer: I mean, silver buttons like why would you go... You can't go wrong.

Em Schulz: Until we're back in a gold era. She probably heard about rose gold and got real nervous.

Christine Schiefer: I think we all heard about rose gold and got real nervous.

Em Schulz: Yeah, probably so.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter]

Em Schulz: Did you have a favorite uh, playground chant?

Christine Schiefer: And I mean, that was probably it.

Em Schulz: Ms. Mary Mack?

Christine Schiefer: Oh no, no, no. What's the one... This one...

Em Schulz: Patty Cake?

Christine Schiefer: No, no, that, we did it in an After Hours once. Maybe, that is it?

Em Schulz: Patty Cake?

Christine Schiefer: No, no, Ms. Mary Mack. What's the one where she goes to the movies and un-buttons her flys and whatever.

Em Schulz: Oh, oh the the one where like every last part of it feels like you're gonna cuss but then it's not.

Christine Schiefer: Mm-hmm, that's my favorite. Uh, here, I'll say a line. The boys in the back. The boy, the boys are in their... Are zipping up their flys are in the meadow, the peas are in the park, Susie and her boyfriend are kissing in the D-A-R-K, D-A-R-K, dark, dark, dark. And then remember we were doing it in the after hours and you were getting so fed up because every time it stopped and then I just kept going, 'cause I just kept adding verses, you were not having an enjoyable experience.

Em Schulz: See, it's why I don't wanna encourage you with your rhyming abilities, 'cause I'm like, you could just start freestyling [laughter] and then it never ends ever. Oh well, if you wanna hear us, I guess freestyle more limericks, you can head over to our Patreon with our after hours and see what we're about over there, I think we're gonna do a ghost test, ghost quiz.

Christine Schiefer: Okay. Thank you for remembering. I'm actually gonna do a what type of ghost are you? Quiz today.

Em Schulz: I know Christine is gonna be a poltergeist, without a question.

Christine Schiefer: [laughter]

Em Schulz: But if you would like to find out what I am gonna be, head on over to Patreon.

Christine Schiefer: Great idea.

Em Schulz: And...

Christine Schiefer: That's...

Em Schulz: Why...

Christine Schiefer: We...

Em Schulz: Drink.

Christine SchieferApril 7, 2024