E412 Leona’s Ghost and High Definition Palm Sweat

TOPICS: THE KNOWLES FAMILY UFO INCIDENT, POLLY KLAAS

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It’s Episode 412 where all gifts are from Funcle Em! This week Em takes us to Australia for the wild story of the Knowles Family UFO Incident. Then Christine brings us to California for a dark story that will leave your jaw on the floor, the case of Polly Klaas. And will someone let us know where that lady was going?? …and that’s why we drink!

Photos:
The Knowles Family
Fata Morgana Mirage Example
Polly Klaas
The cover of Jeanne Boylan’s book “Portraits of Guilt” with a photo of her and some of her famous criminal sketches along the bottom
Jeanne Boylan’s sketch of Polly Klaas’ abductor

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Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: Welcome to And That’s Why We Drink. Not And This Is Why We Drink. Not And This Is Why I Drink. Not And That’s Why I Drink. Not ATTWD. There’s been all sorts of iterations of our show, but, um, it is ATWWD. And, uh, we’re here today to bring you the hard-hitting news that we bring you every week. So thank you for joining us. 

Em: Mm. That was beautiful. 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: Did someone recently fuck it up again in front of you? 

Christine: No, and I, I feel bad because it took me ten years to figure out how– what it– what our show is called. So I’m not trying to critique anyone, but it’s, um– We had this wonderful tattoo artist named Ash, who did my most recent little like angel numbers and my Mothman, um, and, and she’s just wonderful, and she’s so talented. But we did a show in San Diego, and she made like a flash sheet for podcast listeners. And I like– I mean, the gasp that came out of me when she showed me the iPad with all the like little drawings. And they had this Capri-Sun which was my f– absolute favorite. I don’t– Did you see it? 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was really cool. 

Christine: It’s like a little Capri-Sun, and it had, um, ATWWD but it was like AIT– And I was like, “What does that say?” 

Em: Yeah, what is– 

Christine: Like I couldn’t figure out what it said. And then I was like, “Duh. It’s like And That’s Why I Drink,” I think. 

Em: Ohh. 

Christine: Like, she like put the wrong– And so I was like, “Hey.” And she’s like, “I knew I would fuck it up. It’s so many words.” And I was like, “It’s not you. It’s us. We made a podcast with like eight words.” And my brother’s and my podcast also is a bajillion words. I don’t know why I do this to myself. 

Em: ’Cause you’re a yapper. 

Christine: I can’t stop myself! Anyway, how are you doing? 

Em: You’re trying to come up with a title of something, and you’re just like, “Well, maybe it’s this, this, and this, and this, and this, and this.” 

Christine: I should just add– I should just a-add a little more words. A little more description. Just in case. 

Em: Let me over explain just to make sure everyone understands. 

Christine: [laughs] That doesn’t sound like me. 

Em: Um, I’m okay. I’m still recovering from my cold, and I think I’m losing my voice so, um. 

Christine: Oh! You be sexy like Phoebe Buffay. 

Em: [as Phoebe Buffay] My babies. [speaking normally] Yes. Well, uh, I’m worried ’cause we have three days of recording to do, so I’m– 

Christine: We do have that. That is true. 

Em: I’m wondering how that’s gonna look by the end, but– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –um, for now, I’ve got my voice. And that’s that, I guess. I ha– I went to the wedding. I– 

Christine: How was Deirdre’s wedding? Feels very– like a milestone in the podcast. 

Em: It was a good wedding with good cake. That’s all I care about. 

Christine: Okay! 

Em: I had only four bites though. I got a small slice. I was not excited about that. 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: But, um, how ‘bout you? What’d you do since we last talked? 

Christine: Well, I guess I’ll just jump in and tell you why I drink, if that’s okay. 

Em: Oh, sure. 

Christine: Um. My heart is b– 

Em: That’s why I drink. That’s why I drink, by the way. 

Christine: That is why you drink? 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: ’Cause you had met some pa– partners that were hopefully winners and were just duds. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: And we’re gonna gossip about it in the Yappy Hour, uh, on Patreon. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: So anyone who feels connected to this story in any way whatsoever besides me, uh, let’s go join on Patreon later, and we’ll t– discuss it after the show. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, side note. Yeah, why I drink. Uh, actually not side note. Primary bullet point. It’s happened, Em. My heart is pounding. My palms are sweating. Leona said to me yesterday– I shit you not. She said, “Mommy? Where’s that lady going?” 

Em: Please, Christine. [laughs] 

Christine: And I s– I– Like my– I don’t know if you can see. You know how I told you I have a new, um, camcorder set up. My palm– I’m like– 

Em: High definition sweat on your hands. 

Christine: High 4K sweat beading on my face. 

Em: Where’s that lady going? Where was she, where was she looking? 

Christine: So I told Blaise about this last night. We had a very intense conversation ’cause Blaise was like, “Oh no. Oh no. Oh no.” And I was like, “Ok–“ He goes, “Well, maybe could there have been a reflection?” And so then I like look towards where she had been sitting, and I was like, “Nope, she was looking up the–“ So we’re sitting in the little dining room, and I’m organizing her coloring supplies, and she’s just like coloring on CatRat, uh, the, the cat, the, the villain from Gabby’s Dollhouse. And she’s like coloring, coloring. And she kinda glances up, I shit you not, over my shoulder. And we just have like kind of the entryway and the big room there. And she just goes, “Where’s that lady going?” And I was like, “It– It–“ I was like, “It’s happening. It’s happening. It’s happening. It’s happening. Everybody, stay calm.” And so I was like– 

Em: You sound like Eva when the car started losing gas. 

[laughs] 

Christine: “Everything’s happening now. And we’re all just gonna sit and coa–“ 

Em: “Everything I’ve ever imagined is happening right now.” 

Christine: It’s– “We’re coasting into hell.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, that was like us in the car in New Hampshire too, just like slowly careening to our doom. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And she’s sitting there. She goes, “Where’s that lady going?” And I was like, “Uhhh… Ahhhh… Wwww– Who are you talking about? Which lady?” And she’s like, “She’s my friend.” And I went, “Oh boy.” 

Em: [sing-song voice] No, she’s not. 

Christine: Oh boy. And I said, of course, “Well, is she nice to you?” And Leona said, “Yes.” And I said, “Okay, if you’re ever uncomfortable around her, you just tell her that, and you can tell me. Um, but as long as she’s nice to you and is, is friendly or whatever, it’s, it’s okay.” And she goes [laughs]– 

Em: Please. I can’t wait. Say it. Say it slowly. 

Christine: [laughs] She goes, she goes, “Well, she’s just the wife.” And I went, “The what?” 

Em: I so beg your pardon. 

Christine: And she has like a little lisp, right? And I– So I’m like, “She has wh– She’s a what? She– The, the life?” And she goes, “No, the wife.” And I said, “She’s a wife?” But like I– It didn’t occur to me right away ’cause I’m like that’s not a word Leona uses really. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Like we don’t u– I mean, I’m sure she knows what– Oh, I , I don’t know if she knows what a wife is, but apparently– And she goes, “Yeah, she’s the wife.” And I’m like, “Whose wife?” And she’s like, “The guy.” And I was like, “Okay.” So then I started asking questions like, “Oh? What are their names?” And then she just started making up gibberish sounds, and I was like, “Okay, she’s lost the plot. 

Em: [groans] Ugh, so annoying. I need you to be on task, girl! 

Christine: I know. I was like, “Focus, focus.” Um, but I do have an emergency, um, voice memo button on the side of my phone, so when she starts talking, I just “boop,” hit that button. 

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So I can verbatim hear what she’s saying ’cause I don’t wanna like twist it later. ’Cause later I told Blaise the story, and I kept saying that Leona said, “Where– Where did that lady come from?” 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Which sounds a lot scarier. But when I play– when I like really thought back, I was like, “No, no, no. She didn’t say that. She said, ‘Where’s she going?’” And I was like, “Hopefully, far, far away.” Uh, but yeah. I don’t– I didn’t know, and I said, “What’s she wearing?” And Leona was like, “I don’t know,” and so she just kind of stopped talking about it. But she was almost like sheepish to tell me which was weird. 

Em: I don’t like that. 

Christine: Yeah. And she was like kinda shy about it almost like– She’s like [soft voice] “Where’s– Where is that lady going? You know, my friend?” 

Em: Or maybe she was like, “Oh shit. Like we’re talking about this too much. Like maybe this is something I’m supposed to not be so chill about.” 

Christine: Yeah, it was almost like she was like, she was like, [whispers] “Hey, you know my friend that we’ve never talked about?” [speaking normally] And I was like, “What?” [laughs] 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, anyway. So it was a very strange encounter, and I don’t know. She’s also been getting much better at like imagining and pretend playing, so I’m like maybe she invented some story. But for now, I am on high alert, and I’ve got my voice memo recording emergency button ready in case she says something else so that I can report back. Uh, but for now, the wife is doing okay. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. 

Christine: Uh, and seems to be f– 

Em: / could be in the room with you right now. 

Christine: And how– What the hell would I even know without Leona present to tell me? 

Em: Have you said anything out loud to her? 

Christine: Uh, no. I don’t believe I have. 

Em: God, I would be screaming in every room. I’d be like, “Girl, you can stay, but you gotta be nice. Other than that–“ 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “It’s about to get weird. We’re gonna bring priests in. You better look out.” 

Christine: [laughs] I’m not bringing any priests into my home. I’m sorry. The, the– Something has to go extremely wrong before I bring a Catholic priest, or any priest, into my home, I’ll tell you what. Um, anyway, so we’re good over here. Just chilling. Coloring. Talking to our friends. 

Em: Obviously, you have to ask her to draw a picture of the lady. 

Christine: Well, Leona doesn’t know how to draw a picture of a circle, so I don’t think we’re gonna get very far with that. [laughs] 

Em: Failure as a parent. This is the exact moment she needs to know how to draw. This is what you should’ve been prepping her for. 

Christine: Well, listen. The girl loves to draw. It’s just she has her own, uh, method of doing so, and it’s usually just scratching at the paper until holes form in it. Um. 

Em: [laughs] Oh! That sounds exactly like your kid. 

Christine: And then coloring walls and clothing. So I don’t think we’re gonna get very far with that except if you wanna see a really nice scribble and then, um, imagine maybe that’s a lady in a Victorian dress. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: We could try that. 

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But, uh. Yeah, anyway. So that’s why I drink as of yesterday. 

Em: You know another reason why I drink? Is because, um, I was realizing how far I’ve made it with Leona in terms of our relationship. 

Christine: Really far. 

Em: Because, uh, Deirdre has a kid. And, uh, he is a year and a half, so he hasn’t hit the sweet spot yet where I care, you know what I mean. 

Christine: [laughs] Uh-huh. 

Em: I mean, I know that’s mean to say, but also like I know I’m not good with him at this point, so I haven’t made an effort. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: But once he hits like two-ish, that’s when I get my groove. 

Christine: [laughs] Uh-huh. 

Em: And that’s when, all of a sudden, Funcle Em comes out. 

Christine: I can’t wait ’til you have a child, and you’re like, “I’m just gonna wait ’til it’s two. ’Cause right now it’s just not my thing.” 

Em: I do know– 

Christine: “It’s not my v– I’m just not vibing with him until he’s like– can talk to me.” 

Em: I, I do know when I have a kid, uh, we will have a rough patch until he’s about two. And I’ll c– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I’ll love him. But we won’t be as close as we will later. Like I kn– I know where I stand. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, Allison can be the favorite for years zero to two. And then for two to eternity, I’ll be the best. 

Christine: No. No, you know you’ll be the favorite ’cause you’re obviously more removed. That’s how this works. 

Em: Is that how it works? 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Well, see? Then it actually works out very well. 

Christine: Honestly, it might be for the best. 

Em: But no, all I’m– I’m not good with babies. I’m great with toddlers. And I, I know that that’s where I’m firmly sat. Um, Deirdre has a baby who has yet to become a toddler, and so him and I are not totally vibing. And I kept saying to her when we were hanging out, I was like “Just wait.” [laughs] “Just wait. Eventually. It’ll get there.” 

Christine: [laughs] “I promise someday this will be beautiful.” 

Em: But not only is he, um, a little baby, but he’s also a little baby who is also sick. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: And so that it was a sick baby who I’m not bonding with, and so, uh– 

Christine: I know how much you love germs. 

Em: I tried– Well, and also like who am I to talk? Like I’m obviously sick too, but, um, it was a different sick, I guess. Anyway, I kept trying to hang out with him, and then he would sneeze, and I’d just go, “Ew.” Like I looked like the worst, I looked like the worst person to be around a baby. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I felt so bad. So, um, anyway. Deirdre, if you’re listening, this is my, in advance, just warning you again– Luca and I will be chill eventually. It just has to be a little later in time. [laughs] That’s all. 

Christine: We just need– We need to get through our own personal journeys. 

Em: I– And can confirm. Leona and I were not close, and then we became very close. Right? I– 

Christine: That’s right. Yeah, you did show up in a whirlwind of, uh, toys and drawing and just a lot of gummy bears and Frozen musicals. 

Em: Bribery helps. 

Christine: So, yeah, she really– 

Em: Bribery helps. 

Christine: You swept her off her feet is, is one way to put it. 

Em: Bribery helps. Um, being able to relate to them with silly shows, that helps. Dance parties helps. But right now, he’s just like kinda bumping into things. 

Christine: Th– Just there. Yeah. 

Em: He’s kinda figuring it out. And, and once he figures it out, then we’ll be fine. So, um, I drink because I still feel awkward that my best friend, my childhood best friend’s baby and I are not bonding. But I know, in time, it’ll work. 

Christine: Well, and also like it’s weird if you’re not just spending all the time with them. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like if you were with the baby every day, you’d be like, “Oh!” Or like see them every weekend for brunch or something, you’d be like, “Oh, I like– Listen, I, I clocked this baby. I know what we’re about.” But like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: You’re probably both like, “Who the hell are you?” 

Em: Yeah. I can’t wait until, um, I become the, the elusive random friend of the family who just brings gifts and leaves – like I do with Leona. 

Christine: I mea– Yeah, I mean. I told you– Elusive, I wish. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, yeah, there’s– [laughs] I was just telling you that, uh, that Leona calls everything a gift from Funcle Em because like at this point we don’t know who gave– Well, I do, but she certainly doesn’t care to know who gave her what. Everything’s just from Funcle Em. [laughs] And then I said, “Oh, no. This one was from–“ And she goes, “Oh, no. That one was from Funcle Renée.” And I went, “Okay. I guess we have Funcle Em, Funcle Renée, and those are the only two, uh–“ 

Em: You know, I think “Funcle” is, um, a title of honor where it means you’ve hit a threshold others have not, so– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –if Renée has hit Funcle, that’s good for her. 

Christine: I don’t think she’s thrilled about it, but that’s okay. 

Em: Oh, well. Sorry, Renée. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Sorry that you’re so good that you’ve been given a different rank. Whoops. 

Christine: Hey, you should be happy ’cause this means that you’re gonna keep the sole title of Funcle. 

Em: Great! I can’t wait. Anyway, so, uh. I’m excited to have another little kid to be friends with one day. It’s just not today. 

Christine: Luca and Leona. I’m already planning their friendship. 

Em: Every single baby I know starts with an L. 

Christine: Really? 

Em: Every single baby. Yes. 

Christine: I thought you know one name– 

Em: Every baby. 

Christine: Don’t you know one named liked Adele? 

Em: Oh, yeah. That one. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: But I’m– There’s Luca– 

Christine: That’s– Well, that was the only one I could think of. I’m trying to think of what other babies– 

Em: There’s Luca, Leo, Liam, Lily– They’re all– It’s all L’s. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Is Leo Leona or a different Leo? 

Em: Different. Luca, Leo, Leona, Liam, Lily– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Lu– Luke. Yeah. 

Christine: Lu-luke? 

Em: No. I was, I was [laughs] trying to think did I already say that name. 

Christine: [laughs] I’m just teasing. I’m just teasing. 

Em: Anyway. And then, Adele. Okay. Um. 

Christine: Adele– I mean, listen. I– No, I get it now. It’s– But when you said, “all the babies I know,” I’m like, I only know one other baby you know whose name does not start with an L. So I was not trying to play devil’s advocate. I really was just trying to think of what babies you knew. But I don’t know the other ones. 

Em: It’s, it’s a lot of L’s. So. 

Christine: Yep, yep, yep. 

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Em’s Story – The Knowles Family UFO Incident 

Em: Anyway, I have a story before my voice totally dims like the, the candle at the end of Hanukkah. 

Christine: Aw, oh no! 

Em: [laughs] I feel like the family’s just gathering around as I slowly fade away. Um– 

Christine: You’re like decrepit. You’re just falling into pieces. 

Em: Everyone’s amazed that I’m still here at all. Um, it’s been like eight days, and my voice is– 

Christine: Oh, and honestly, we’re all kinda getting over it. We’re like, “Okay…” 

Em: It’s, it’s like, “Honestly, if it were dark in here, it’d be better. Yeah.” 

Christine: Like, “Why is this about you again honestly?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Again.” 

Em: Okay, let’s see if I can get through this. I honestly don’t know. I’m, I’m telling you in advance I’m sorry about my voice if– 

Christine: I can’t wait to see what happens if you don’t get through it. I don’t know what that means, but I’m really looking forward to finding out. 

Em: Oh, I feel like my voice is just starting to sound like a, a printer that’s running out of ink. It’s just– [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, the toner. It’s just like the, um– 

Em: [laughs] Yeah, just fading away. 

Christine: Yeah, the lines. Yeah. 

Em: So– 

Christine: It’s turning pink. 

Em: –while we’ve got the chance, let me tell you a UFO story. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: This is the Knowles Family UFO Incident. 

Christine: I don’t know this one. 

Em: We– 

Christine: I don’t Knowles this one. 

Em: Now, that’s good. 

Christine: Thanks. I worked on it for days. 

Em: Did [voice cracks] you? Oh, no. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Oh no. [laughs] 

Christine: It’s happening. 

Em: Oh boy. Okay. Quickly! We’re in Australia. 

Christine: Get a Ricola! 

Em: [laughs] Uh, do I have one? 

Christine: [singing to the jingle] Ricola. 

Em: [singing to the jingle] Ricola. [speaking] I don’t have one. Shit. Um. 

Christine: Shit. What the hell did you just unzip? 

Em: My bag of goodies. 

Christine: Oh my god. All of a sudden, Em literally just looks down one inch and unzips something and goes, “Nope. No Ricola.” I’m like, what are you looking inside? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Your, your kangaroo pouch? What’s happening? You just have like a bag of goodies in your lap. 

Em: Um, I do have– It’s my bag of m-medicinal goods. 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: I know. You’d like to go fishing in there, I bet. 

Christine: It’s not– I was gonna say, I would, except you said you lost your Xanax, and you can’t find a Ricola. So what use is that bag to me ever? 

Em: A lot of reasons to drink today, I think. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Okay. We’re in Australia. We’re with the Knowles family. It is a mom and her three adult sons. Her name is Faye, and her sons are Patrick, Sean, and Wayne. And when I say adults, I mean like around college age. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And apparently, their two dogs are in this car as well. They’re all driving. 

Christine: Damn. 

Em: And they’re driving from Perth to Adelaide, which is a long fucking drive. Let’s put it that way. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: A long, long drive. Cross the country is how it seems. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, and they’re driving through this area called the Nullarbor Plain, which is essentially this long isolated stretch of like desert road. Like it’s just like highway– or Route 66 kinda. Like it just looks like you’re driving through nothing. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And this is in 1988. Different sources said it was between 1:45 in the morning to like 5:30 in the morning, so– 

Christine: What are they doing? 

Em: –it’s a wide stretch. 

Christine: Why are they all in the car? 

Em: They’re driving. 

Christine: Why? At 4 in the morning? Or 3 in the morning? 

Em: I think, one, one source was like, “Oh, they just needed to get out of town.” And another one was like, “They’re literally moving.” And another one– 

Christine: Okay. I feel like moving is the only thing that makes sense– 

Em: Me too. 

Christine: –’cause I just looked it up. It’s literally a 28 hour drive. 

Em: Yes. That’s what I’m saying. A cross-country. 

Christine: It’s not across the country, which is the craziest part. It’s literally just like this [points and moves right hand horizontally away from left hand to offscreen]. 

Em: Wild. 

Christine: That’s how big this motherfucking country is apparently. 

Em: Insane. 

Christine: Holy shit. Okay, so it’s down the coast. I see. 28 hours, and it’s not even all the way across the GD country. It’s a straight shot 28 hours, which, by the way folks, 2,700 kilometers about. Yeah, so you’d be– So they’re proba– They must be moving or, or going on some big trip ’cause why would you bring all your brothers and your dogs? 

Em: And your dogs, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. Okay, sorry. 

Em: And– 

Christine: When you said like 2– 1 in the morning, I was like, “What are they doing out there?” 

Em: And one article said it was– they were driving to Melbourne, which is apparently like another 8 hours, so– 

Christine: Oh, for god’s sake. These people. 

Em: Um, okay. 

Christine: This is a big country. 

Em: So they’re driving to Adelaide. They’re driving through the Null– Null-arbor– Nullarbor Plain, and it’s somewhere in the middle of the night. Most sources said around like 3 in the morning. And this event allegedly lasted 90 minutes. I don’t believe that, um, because it sounds like it was a really quick experience. But also they lost time, so– 

Christine: Ah, missing [spooky voice] time. 

Em: –I guess that would make it 90 minutes. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, but Sean is the 21-year-old in the car. He was driving at this point, and when he was driving, he sees this big, bright, glowing ball ahead of them. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And the light was bright white. It had yellow in the center. And the light was kinda jumping up and down a bit, like it was almost bouncing ov– uh, over the read. And the, the light, um, began to come towards them– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –which seemed, “Oh, it’s after us.” But then he realized it looked like it was almost following a car that was passing them. Does that make sense? 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: So it’s like coming at them, but really it’s a car, it’s a car passing them that it’s following. 

Christine: So– But it was coming at them from behind? They thought it was? 

Em: No, like if you’re driving, and you’re looking ahead. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: The– and the light is there, and it’s coming towards you. 

Christine: Uh-huh. Yeah. 

Em: It looks like it’s coming at your car, but it was the fact that there was another car on the side of the road that was passing them. 

Christine: Oh, on– in the other direction? 

Em: In the other direction. 

Christine: Oh, I see. Okay, okay. Gotcha. 

Em: So, although it looked like it was coming at them, it was actually following another car going the opposite way. 

Christine: Got it, got it, got it. 

Em: And so, for a second, they panic ’cause they’re like, “Aah! There’s this light coming at us.” Then it passes by as another truck does. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And some stories said that Sean got curious and did a U-turn to like follow the light ’cause he wanted to know like where– what this thing was and where it was going. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Other stories say that they minded their damn business, but the light itself did a U-turn. 

Christine: Ah! That would be my big fear. Like, “Please, please don’t notice me. Please don’t notice me.” 

Em: Yeah. Just– He– 

Christine: “Pl– Keep following that truck. I’m sure there’s really exciting like frozen shrimp in the there or something you could find.” 

Em: [laughs] Frozen shrimp. 

Christine: “But please leave us out of it.” I don’t know. [laughs] “Leave us out of it.” 

Em: Uh, but yeah. So, uh, I’m gonna go with the light does a fucking U-turn and follows them. 

Christine: Ooh..! [quiet scream] Aah! 

Em: And Sean obviously starts freaking out. He like– He’s doing that thing where he’s trying to pay attention to the road, but he’s also looking in the rearview mirror. And he’s like, “Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god.” 

Christine: [rising in pitch] Guys, guys, guys, guys! 

Em: And it’s v– He’s kind of trying to subtly start speeding up, uh, just– 

Christine: Subtly [laughs]. That’s nice. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah, just like– Maybe, like– “Maybe I’ll just move a little faster.” 

Christine: “Maybe it’s not for us.” 

Em: And guess what? The light is keeping pace with the car– 

Christine: No. 

Em: –eventually catching up with them. Sean starts freaking out. He’s driving a little faster. The thing can keep up with them. Eventually, Sean is like pedal to the metal. He is driving as fast as he can because he’s like, “Get this– What the– Get this thing away from me.” Like, “Can another car pass, so it gets distracted by that thing.” 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: He starts panicking. He’s now driving about 125 miles an hour, like flooring his car. I wonder if his family’s awake at this point. I feel like I would wake up if the car was moving that fast, but I– maybe I wouldn’t? 

Christine: I would wake– Also if I were driving, I would wake everyone up. 

Em: Yeah, I’d be like, “Guys, can you keep an eye on that thing?” 

Christine: I’d be like, “You f– motherfucking brothers of mine. I’ve been driving all night. Wake the fuck up and help me figure out what to do.” 

Em: Well, so the light– obviously it’s growing bigger as it approaches. And eventually, it’s right on them. And when I say on them, I mean it’s literally hovering over their car, while they’re driving 125 miles an hour. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And it’s keeping pace. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: Um, the whole family, at this point, is awake. And I imagine, it’s just screams in that car. The poor dogs. Um– 

Christine: The dogs. Oh no. 

Em: And the whole family, all of a sudden, feels the car shift and this heaviness pressing into the roof of their car. And they realize that whatever this light is, it is now grabbing their car. 

Christine: [gasps] So they’re like getting like the claw, like [mimes a claw machine grabbing something] “cher-chunk.” 

Em: The claw, yeah. 

Christine: We’re gonna pick you up. Oh my god. My nightmare. 

Em: And the heaviness pressing down into the roof of their car is like the heavy– the weight of this thing pressing in to grab it. 

Christine: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. 

Em: They hear this loud clunking sound – probably a big ass claw grabbing their car. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And Sean can no longer control the car, and not in a way where like they’re swerving, but like he’s literally steering, and the car– 

Christine: There’s nothing happening. [gasps] 

Em: So, in theory, that means the car is off of the road. 

Christine: Like imagine– It’s like you’re a– in a toy. Like it’s like, oh, somebody like some big kid like picked up your toy and lifted you in the air, and suddenly, your wheels are just spinning. Like it feels like you’re nothing more than just a little plaything. 

Em: Yeah. Yes, an object to be used. Yes. 

Christine: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 

Em: Um, but so he’s trying to s– drive. Car’s not doing anything. Uh, and so the car’s, as far as we know, being picked up into the air. 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: And I don’t know what makes her think to do this, but Faye, the mom, she rolls down the window to try to swat away whatever’s grabbing their car, which– 

Christine: I didn’t remember the mom was in there too. Jesus. So they’re all in there. Okay. 

Em: Yeah. Oh, I would be scared too like– I’d be normally scared if it was just me, but also if it were my mom, I’d feel this extra sense of like want to protect them. And I’m sure the mom feels the same way about her kids. 

Christine: Well, and also– And also if the mom is scared, there’s an extra element of like, “Uh-oh. Even Mom doesn’t know what the fuck to do.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Christine: “Now we’re really screwed.” 

Em: So Faye rolls down the window. She tries to swat away this thing grabbing the car– 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: –which straight out of a horror movie, dumbest thing you can do ’cause it’s gonna like rip your arm off or some shit, I would think. But– 

Christine: I mean, swatting at it probably won’t work, although I imagine this was probably a instinctual response. [laughs] 

Em: Yes. Uh, which is weird because my instinctual response is fetal position but– 

Christine: No, I was about to say! I would have crawled onto the floor of the car and rolled into a ball, but– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: I love that she’s like, [laughs] “I’ll get him!” Boop! 

Em: So, uh, the dark– There’s this dark smoke that billows in when she rolls down the window. 

Christine: Ohhh no. 

Em: And so– Now also thank god almost you can’t drive because can you imagine trying to drive through black smoke? 

Christine: Yeah, then you’re all screwed. 

Em: Uh, the sm– the smoke also had a decomposing smell– 

Christine: Good. 

Em: –that came pouring into the windows. And when she stuck her hand out of the car and on top of the roof to swat this thing away, she felt something spongy. 

Christine: [gasps] Okay, but so I’m so glad she did– I know I bitched about it already, but I’m so glad she did do it ’cause how would we even know that? Like that’s such a creepy fascinating little tid– tidbit. 

Em: Spongy’s s– 

Christine: Spongy? 

Em: –so much worse than whatever I thought it was gonna be. 

Christine: So much worse! Like so sick. 

Em: And like– And is it wet spongy? 

Christine: Oh! On top of the– Like what does it mean? Is that its– how it like adhesive– is that the adhesive they use? 

Em: Yeah, or is it like a suction cup that she’s feeling? You know? 

Christine: [gasps] A suction cup. Yeah… 

Em: So the family– 

Christine: That’s worse than the claw! 

Em: I know. I was like, “If it were metal, at least I saw that coming.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So the family heard this high-pitched buzzing in the car, and they think it might have been the machine grabbing their car and like the metal on metal maybe r– making a rattling or something. But they hear this high-pitched buzzing in the car. It causes them to feel really disoriented. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: And they don’t know if it’s like a pressure change or something, but soon they hear their own voices being distorted. 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: And– 

Christine: What? 

Em: –they realize that their voices are slowing down. 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: And their screams sound like [low, slow voice groaning incomprehensibly] 

Christine: Ew! Em. Gross. 

Em: Terrifying. Also does that actually give us confirmation of time stopping? 

Christine: That– Well, I was gonna say that. I was like it sounds like that thing where it’s like hyper-speed, and so you feel like everything’s really slow. 

Em: Mm. Yeah. Or when they say like, like, you lose time with an alien, is it like– Do you– Can– Did they actually– Do they have a memory of the time being manipulated? 

Christine: And that was the moment that it was getting like adjusted? 

Em: And it– That’s when they felt like they were disoriented, and– 

Christine: Mm. And it like s– 

Em: –everything started feeling distorted and slowing down. 

Christine: Yuck. That’s so– Dude, that’s so unsettling. 

Em: Uh, one of them– I think it was Faye? It might have been one of the sons. One of them said, in this moment, it “felt like my brain was being sucked out.” 

Christine: No, come on. 

Em: “It felt like something was going into our heads.” 

Christine: [muffled by hand over mouth] No, come on. 

Em: And then they said they felt like they were dying. And this is when they lose track of time. 

Christine: [sighs] What the fuck, dude? 

Em: Feeling your brain get sucked out is crazy. 

Christine: W-what a very specific and absolutely horrific thing to describe. 

Em: And you know what is so toxic about me is that I f– I believe I know what that feels like. Like I think– 

Christine: [laughs] You would. 

Em: ’Cause like I hear “brain getting sucked out,” and I’m like, “Oh, I can imagine that.” 

Christine: You’re like, “I get it. That happens to me every day. What’s the big deal?” 

Em: Like I don’t know why I think I can– 

Christine: A-ha. “One time, I got hand, foot, mouth disease, guys, so, um, I think I can handle it.” 

Em: Ho– And to this day, I do believe that’s true. I can handle most things after that fucking disaster. 

Christine: I’m a fully– I’m fully aware. I am, I’m saying none of this with any sort of irony whatsoever. 

Em: Worst, worst week of my life. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Or one of them certainly. [laughs] That was a– 

Christine: Okay, let’s hold a– Let’s hope that that remains the worst week of your life. I would really– 

Em: I can’t wait to show that to, to, uh, your little baby and go, “Look what you’ve done to me. Look what you did.” 

Christine: Yeah. Well, I’m sure she’s gonna feel absolutely terrible. Um, we can play my– 

Em: Sh– I’ll wait ’til she’s emotional. 

Christine: We can play my childbirth video after, and then, uh, you can try to complain again, “Look what you did to me.” Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] You know what’s toxic about me? 

Christine: Uh, yeah, but anyway, you can tell me if you’d li– if you’d rather. Go ahead. 

Em: I feel like that hand, foot, and mouth disease absolutely equates to birth. Obviously. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: The, the labor and hand, foot, mouth disease. Same experience. 

Christine: I’m just so glad we’re finally getting it out on audio for recording– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –so I can listen back and feel like I’m not absolutely losing my mind. 

Em: Certainly the same, um, mental torment, uh, at least. 

Christine: Certainly the exact same. 

Em: At very least. Yeah. 

Christine: At the very least. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. And– 

Christine: Certainly the lasting damage and, um, the psychological damage. Yeah, it’s all pretty much the same I would say. 

Em: I, I agree. 100%. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Don’t show this to your therapist though because she’ll say that, um, we should stop being friends. 

Christine: I would never. 

Em: Um. 

Christine: I would never. I would never do that. 

Em: [laughs] So. Okay. 

Christine: I know better by now, being friends with you this long. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] To keep me in hiding. 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, I j– I know, I know better than to just display the things that you do and say. 

Em: I had, I had some wild thought recently, and I was like, “Oh, that’s too far.” I was like, “That’s too, too toxic.” [laughs] 

Christine: Oh! I love that. You should get one of these shadow journal books ’cause you can write whatever you want in there, and it’s supposed to be normal. 

Em: The awareness is kicking in, folks. Don’t worry. 

Christine: Isn’t that fun? 

Em: So, uh, they’re blacked out, it seems, uh. 

Christine: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 

Em: And– Just that’s how I felt after you gave birth and I had hand, foot, mouth disease, so. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I w– I had to care for all of you. It was su– It was really scary day. 

Em: [laughs] It was bad – for me, not you though. But, um– 

Christine: [laughs] No. No, no. I was just, I was just, uh, trying my best to help out. 

Em: You were having a parade over there. You were having an easy-breezy day. 

Christine: I was on– I mean, I was on drugs, uh, prescription from the hospital. 

Em: [sing-song voice] Jealous. 

Christine: Yeah, so things were not as bad as they could seem. 

Em: Uh, they– Okay, so they hear voices distorting, and, uh, they feel the car getting picked up. They feel something spongy on top. Their brains are getting sucked out, which we all know how that feels. 

Christine: Sure, sure, sure. [laughs] We’ve all been there. 

Em: And next thing they knew, the UFO, I’m assuming at this point is what it is– The UFO is violently shaking the car. 

Christine: Good. 

Em: So, it really had a trust in its own grip on that car. It was like, “Now I’m gonna shake it like it’s–“ 

Christine: Like, “Get your hand off the suction cup!” 

Em: Like I’m Darla, and this is a bag of fish. 

Christine: Right! It is Darla. Oh my god, you’re right. 

Em: And honestly, if they were blacked out or their brains were getting sucked out and they were incapacitated, they probably looked like the fish in that bag. 

Christine: Yes, they sure did. 

Em: So maybe– 

Christine: And she’s like, “Get your hands off–“ 

Em: –the UFO’s like, “Why are you sleeping?” 

Christine: “Wake up! Wake up! Knock, knock, knock!” 

Em: Uh, and then a– although they felt the car violently shaking, which maybe because they were– I’m guessing they were– either they were blacked out or they were kinda losing consciousness. That’s how I’m understanding it. Maybe the, the car being violently shaken actually did kinda bring them back because the next thing they remember is the car’s wheels making contact with the ground again. 

Christine: Oh, so maybe that was like their wake-up call. 

Em: Maybe. [laughs] What a fucking bad wake-up call. 

Christine: Mm. “Good morning!” [laughs] 

Em: “Hello!” [laughs] 

Christine: “Hello!” 

Em: But, um, the thing is when they remember the car’s wheels making contact with the ground again, the heavy-handedness of the UFO pressing the car back into the ground caused one of the tires to blow out. 

Christine: Oh my god! So it is like Darla, and she just popped the fucking bag on the way down. 

Em: [laughs] Yes, exactly. 

Christine: Just like dropped it on the concrete. Great. 

Em: Exactly. Uh, ’cause I mean, I guess if the UFO like doesn’t know how gingerly it has to put the car back down, if it presses too hard, then boom. You know? 

Christine: Right. It makes sense that it would just like smash it down by accident. 

Em: And, uh, and after that, the UFO disappeared, so– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: But, here’s the thing – ’cause I hear tire blowout, and I think, “Oh my god. They’re for sure gonna like swerve everywhere and die.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But Sean somehow regains control of the car– 

Christine: They were still moving? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Oh, I thought like they just set them down and like on the side of the road. 

Em: No, I, I guess the whole time the UFO is moving, and this whole thing happened. 

Christine: What in the fuck is that for? 

Em: So that’s what I’m– 

Christine: They were gonna do that to a semi-truck? 

Em: I know. Well, that shows you how strong it must be if it was planning on doing– 

Christine: Yeah, that’s alarming. Maybe it was like, “That’s an easier target. Let’s turn around.” 

Em: It’s bigger, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um– Or it’s smaller. 

Christine: Smaller, yeah. 

Em: So, maybe Sean– I– The thing I’m most blown away by is that like if the car was still moving at 125 miles an hour– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: –and then they put the car down and the tire blew out, like you’re having a blowout at 125 miles an hour. Like your car should be all over the fucking place, and everyone should be dead. Right? 

Christine: 125 miles per hour? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Not kilometers per hour? 

Em: No, it was 200 kilometers per hour. 

Christine: Jesus. Why are they going so fast? 

Em: ’Cause remember he was– 

Christine: Trying to get away from the thing? 

Em: Yeah, they were trying to get away from it, then they got picked up. 

Christine: Oh, and then– 

Em: And when they regained consciousness, they were still going that fast. And they put the car down, and the tire blew out. 

Christine: That’s just crazy. I mean, but if a tire– Well, you could have still the wheel intact and still drive. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I mean, I’ve had tires blow out on the highway, and it’s like you can– you don’t necessarily sw– I mean, if I had just been thrown out of a UFO, yeah, maybe I’d swerve. But like I think just the tire popping you could probably maintain– 

Em: Well, somehow Sean did. So he regained control of the car. The car stops, I guess, in the middle of the road. And the family just runs out of the car. They’re like, “Get the fuck out!” 

Christine: [inhales sharply] 

Em: And they’re in the middle of like a v– a remote stretch of l– desert, basically. So they don’t have anywhere to go, but they hide behind bushes for like 15 minutes. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Part of me is like– 

Christine: That– You gotta think that the aliens were like, “These fucking humans. Really? We just pick ‘em up with a giant spongy suction cup, and now they’re hiding behind a bush like that’s gonna save them.”   Em: “They think we can’t see them behind the one bush in a big vast desert.” 

Christine: [laughs] Right. That’s so sad. It feels like a little mouse who got scared and like ran to hide under a bu– You know what I mean? Like– 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god, it’s so eugh! Cringey. 

Em: Part of me is like, did the dogs also know to hide behind the bush or like are they just running in circles doing laps? 

Christine: Right. Were the dogs like, “Whee!” [laughs] 

Em: So, uh, they– So they hid behind the bush for like 15 minutes, and when they felt like the UFO probably wasn’t going to come back, which like I guess if there’s nothing but sky– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –I guess you can take a look around and guess. 

Christine: And hopefully, it’s like mor– coming up on morning, like maybe when the sun comes up you feel less afraid. 

Em: Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. Um, and keep in mind, they don’t eve– they fucking had a blowout. They don’t get to just speed away. They have to fix a fucking tire too, which takes its own 15 minutes. 

Christine: Oh god. Mm-hmm. 

Em: So they fix the tire. And they drive off to the first stop they can find, and it’s this local roadhouse where they tell the staff what they saw. And other truckers who were there claimed to have also seen bright lights that night. And they’re like, “Oh, yeah. Something was for sure going on.” 

Christine: Mm. Mm. 

Em: The family then drove to the police station– or the next police station they could find. I think it was a town called Ceduna? And they go to the police station. They report their experience. The truckers and cops later both confirm that the family’s car was dented and covered in a weird dusty ash and– 

Christine: [gasps] Ooh… 

Em: –the family was, and the family was super shaken. So that’s truckers and cops– 

Christine: [gasps] Yeah, their– the car was going like this [shakes head side to side]. Their brains are all s-scrambled. 

Em: [laughs] I know. That’s a good point. It’s like, well, they’re literally shaken. 

Christine: Literally. Yeah. 

Em: Um, the truckers said that– I guess when they went to the roadhouse, the truckers looked around their car first before they went to the cops. And the truckers also said that the car smelled like a fuse had blown. And– 

Christine: Oh, weird. 

Em: And the light that they had seen in the sky apparently looked like a giant upside down fried egg. 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. 

Em: Which like– Which kinda makes sense because– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –the family described the light as yellow– or white with yellow in the center– 

Christine: Yeah! 

Em: –which would be a fried egg. 

Christine: You’re so right. And it has that saucer shape. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like the yolk is kinda the bottom of the saucer. Wow, weird. 

Em: Um, and I guess they all confirmed that they saw the same lights. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: And then there was some like fishing boat at some point who later also confirmed they saw the lights. So the lights were very documented that night. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and the trucker said that the car smelled like a fuse had blown. The story, uh, broke the next day, uh, after they told the police. And the police, by the way, I– [sighs] I want to say that they took it seriously. They didn’t do like a thorough investigation, but they, at the very least, believed the family. 

Christine: I mean, that’s already– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –more than that– more than happens sometimes in my crime stories, so– [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And they, um– Even the police were later interviewed, and they were like, “They were so fucking shaken. There was no reason for us to not believe them.” 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Plus the fact that there were so many other corroborating witnesses about seeing something out there. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: So the cops at least believe them, but then they were like, “There’s nothing we can do.” And they suggested the family go to like UFO research teams, which how do y– 

Christine: Oh, okay. Well– 

Em: [sarcastic] Like I have that on speed dial. [genuine] I do. [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, listen. Maybe they had connects. They could hand over a business card or two. I bet the police know. 

Em: Yeah, I’m sure they had somebody. I mean, people did come out and look for them. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, or, re– investigate for them. And when the story broke the next day, within like 36 hours. They were on television being interviewed. 

Christine: Oh wow. 

Em: What’s interesting is that in one article, Faye said that they got no money for this, but then another article said that they got five grand. So– 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: It doesn’t matter. It adds nothing to the story, but fun fact, there’s different versions. 

Christine: Dis– Dis– Debate over [laughs] whether or not they got paid. 

Em: Yeah. They al– They also– Like some bunk PR group promised to like make them rich after this and like, “Oh, we’re gonna do talk shows, and we’re gonna auction off your car, and blah-blah-blah.” 

Christine: Oh boy. 

Em: But then nothing ever came from it. I think they actually also lost their car to that group. Like they– Like the car– 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: They said, “Give us the car, and we’ll do promotionals with it,” and then– 

Christine: What the fuck? That’s messed up. Okay, so they just took advantage. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So anyway, the police did seem to believe them. They let UFO research teams handle the case. The teams found evidence of the event, and, and the police even later said in an interview that they saw blood on the ground where one of the boys said that they scraped themselves on the asphalt. So nobody doubted that the family went through something. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And nobody doubted that the family believed it. In fact, most people that have been interviewed about this case 100% believe the family because most of the people that they interviewed were truckers in the area– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: –who have all seen weird shit in the middle of the night on this road. 

Christine: Well, that’s really fortunate, you know? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: That, that other– ’Cause I feel like so many times this happens, and they just become a laughingstock. But I’m glad that at least like– I mean, if you’re gonna have somebody on your side, it’s like truckers, law enforcement– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –like people who don’t– like military. People who don’t fuck around, so– 

Em: Yeah. And a, a lot of them said, “Oh, I’ve seen some weird shit out there. I totally believe that they saw something. Totally.” 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: So, um, that was refreshing to hear. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But upon investigation, the results seem very inconclusive. And even if they– even if everyone believes that the family believes they went through something, there’s no real evidence that they did go through something. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: So the car – it did have a bunch of dents on it. In fact, it had like four dents that looked like a grabber could have picked up the car, and it– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –on the, on the roof. 

Christine: That– Okay. That’s weird. That’s– Okay. 

Em: Um, some versions of this– of the theories of this UFO think that like they were picked up by magnets, and so it also looks like maybe magnets picked it up at all four corners of the car. But police also determined that the marks could have just been from a previous roof rack that was on the car. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So that kinda took that away. 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, that feels– Of all things, that’s like, “Oh. Okay.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] Never mind. 

Em: It really took away from the believability. 

Christine: Wow. Yeah. 

Em: Um, then later when looking at the blown tire, they didn’t see any signs of it popping because it was like pressed into the ground. Um, they think it was just because Sean was driving a car at over 100 miles an hour, and those tires weren’t built to withstand that. 

Christine: Ohh, so like– Okay. Okay, so whether or not it happened, it’s almost like, “Well, the c– tire could have just been blown out from the speed.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So I guess, um– which makes sense, but I guess tires have different speed ratings. And they had a 1984– I didn’t write the name down of– But they, they looked at the tire that was literally on their car, and it had a speed rating of like up to 100 miles an hour. And he was going 125. 

Christine: Right, right. I mean, I imagine most cars from that– especially from that time period, like if it’s an older car back then, yeah. 

Em: Yeah, unless you’re like drag racing or something. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: If anything, it’s more interesting to me that they were able to go over 100 miles an hour, and the car– and Sean could stop the car mid-blowout. That’s more interesting to me– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –but nobody seemed to care about that. Um, also when they were asked later if the car lifted off the ground, they said, “We think so,” instead of “Yes.” And that seemed to like really do a number on their credibility. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Um, d– But they were also saying like, “We were mid-panic. Like we didn’t know what was going on.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “Like we remember feeling like we got lifted off the ground, but we didn’t see ourselves fly.” 

Christine: Like, “You tell me what the hell just happened. I don’t know.” 

Em: Yeah. It’s like, “We didn’t see ourselves take off into the night. Like I don’t know, but we think so.” 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: Uh, so that seemed to take away from their story. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And then as for the weird ashy dust that was all over their car– 

Christine: Uh-huh. I was gonna ask about that. 

Em: The Australian Mineral Development Lab and some UFO research teams– They all took samples and analyzed it. They said that the dust was just consistent with the type of outside dust in that area, so the car was just dusty. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, I guess in that specific Nullarbor– that– the area I was just talking about where it’s like the desert– 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: Um, apparently, it’s higher in salt, and most of the particles that they found in the dust were salt. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: They also found traces of astatine [pronounced “as-ta-teen”] or astatine [pronounced “as-ta-tine”], which, um, some people were like freaking out about that because, “Oh, it’s astatine, and, apparently, it’s radioactive. And that means it’s a UFO.” But despite it actually– Yes, it is somewhat radioactive. It does show up naturally around decay. And remember, there was a smell of decomposition. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: So they might have just driven past something, and some astatine got on the car. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Also those two elements of, uh, er, salt and astatine– Because they were in the dust, some people pushed the narrative that this dust was from a carbonaceous meteorite. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Because between that type of dust, the car shaking, vehicle damage, the bright light that they saw, and that type of smell– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: –um, they thought that that all added up to a meteorite, but it’s unlikely because no one saw a fucking meteor anywhere. 

Christine: Well, that would be wild if like, oh, it’s not aliens. It’s a meteorite that hit the car, and nobody else saw it. 

Em: Yeah, it’s like also– 

Christine: I don’t know. It just– 

Em: –a meteor hit your car, and you survived. 

Christine: –almost as remark– Yeah. It’s almost as remarkable as an alien abduction. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Like it’s pretty much as shocking. 

Em: It, it hit your car so violently that everyone shook and passed out. But there’s no dents. 

Christine: And your brains almost fell out. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “But don’t worry! There’s just a little bit of dust!” Like Jesus Christ. 

Em: So, most realistically, that ash and that burning smell ’cause so– they were saying it smelled like decay, but then the other guy said, after the fact, it smelled like a fuse had blown. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Between the dust and the smell, it could have just burn– been a burnt out brake lining from when they tried stopping the car at such high speeds. 

Christine: Ohh. Okay. Okay. 

Em: Um, and the tire blowing out would explain the violent shaking o– the car endured and the sensation of the car being dropped. Because it probably just felt like they hit a pothole or something because the tire blew out. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Oh yeah, I guess the shaking– Yeah, that would make sense. 

Em: The dust– 

Christine: I suppose. 

Em: I suppose. 

Christine: [laughs] If I must. 

Em: The dust was also later tested again, and it was just essentially standard dust from that area that they were driving through. Um, they even just called it “road grime.” So– 

Christine: Oh, cute. 

Em: I know. The main argument that the family had because I, I kind of, I guess, skipped over this, but a huge part of the beginning of the story is this bright light that they keep seeing, and it’s jumping everywhere. 

Christine: Right. And I like– other people saw it, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Or saw a light? Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So the main argument that the family and witnesses all shared was these massive lights that appeared on the road. And the main theory is that this was a superior mirage– 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: –aka, um– I guess in Australia they’ve been known as “Min Min lights.” But it’s also an optical illusion called “Fata Morgana.” 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: And this illusion– I’ll, I’ll, I’ll show you a picture of, um, another example of a Fata Morgana. Hang on. Um, okay, so I’m sending you a picture to Gio’s Trio. 

Christine: Okay. [unintelligible] my phone. I, uh, I feel like I’ve heard the phrase “superior mirage” before. [sees photo of ship appearing to float above the ocean] Oh! I see! Okay, where something looks like it’s floating almost. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Okay. Wow. 

Em: So, um, I obviously am no scientist, but the way that this works– Or this is the best description I can give you is that, first of all, it’s a very rare illusion. It only happens during very specific conditions. But one of those conditions has to be a weather condition called a temperature inversion. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Because light travels at different speeds through different air densities. And usually, um– so like if the air is warmer or colder, light will travel out it differently. Usually, cold air is on top, and warmer air is on the bottom. 

Christine: Huh. 

Em: But during a temperature inversion, warm air is on top, and cold air is on the bottom, which makes the light travel differently to your, to your eye. And so it just gives you the illusion. 

Christine: That’s incredible. It’s like– That’s the kind of thing that makes me believe more in ghosts and stuff because it’s like hundreds of years ago, you see– ’Cause, I mean, I just googled this term, and, apparently, this is like one of the main theories for the Flying Dutchman– 

Em: Oh, really? 

Christine: –like why people see a flying ship ’cause it’s like– It looks– That’s the example Em sent me is like a kinda cruise liner like above the water. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So it’s really remarkable. If you think you saw that hundreds of years ago, like of course you’d think that was a ghost ship. 

Em: Of course you would think that. 

Christine: I would think it today if I didn’t know about this concept, so it’s like all the stuff we see and feel like I feel like in a couple– I don’t know. I feel like someday we’ll have more explanations, like scientific explanations, you know. 

Em: Yeah. And so, um, and there was a few examples. If anyone types in “superior mirage,” it’s the, the first thing on Google Images. But, um, yeah. Light travels through denser air first, so it bends it in a weird way to our eye. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And basically on the night of this UFO experience, the weather was appropriate for a superior mirage to occur. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And the lights could have just been high beams from another truck, and it just looked like it was floating right at them. 

Christine: Ohh, ‘kay. 

Em: So the best theory that we have about the Knowles Family Incident is that the family was really tired from traveling so far. Because they were so tired and it was late and in the middle of the night, um, they saw a mirage from distant truck lights. They all panicked because they all probably saw the same thing. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: And then they sped away in fear which caused a blowout. 

Christine: Wow. Okay. Okay, okay. 

Em: A random theory I saw was that this is actually– This was never a UFO but a military assashin– assassination attempt, and the family got mixed up with the actual target. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, that’s for sure what happened. What the fuck are you talking about? 

Em: The fact that that’s even on the radar of like potential stories. 

Christine: Like m-more likely than an alien. I’m like, “What is wrong with these people?” 

Em: That somehow an– a UFO is so much more likely than like– 

Christine: That’s right, exactly. 

Em: –you accidentally became the target of a military assassination attempt. 

Christine: Like, mm. Okay. [laughs] 

Em: Um, but so– Here’s my– Here’s a fun fact. I’m gonna send you another picture real quick. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, and this is the end of my story, but I thought it was so funny. It’s really probably not funny, but I thought it was funny– 

Christine: [laughs] I can’t wait. 

Em: –that, um. So there’s– I’m just trying to make sure that I send you all three of them. So I, I couldn’t get a sharp picture of it because it’s an old YouTube pixelated video. So I tried my best, and I just did screenshots where I could. But, um, because this, this story like took off like crazy, you know this, um– the company Dunlop for like tires and stuff like that? 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: So they took advantage of this, and they put– 

Christine: No. 

Em: They, they took out a full page ad the next day. 

Christine: Stop. The next day? They were like, “We’re on top of it!” [laughs] 

Em: And it says– It’s a, it’s a full page ad of their car with three sons and a mom getting abducted by a UFO, and it says, “If only they’d stuck with Dunlop.” 

Christine: No! 

Em: And so I– Uh, other pictures– I tried to get you like closer zoom-ins of the picture. 

Christine: Oh my god. Okay, it’s not a, a photo, but it’s like a drawing. 

Em: A drawing. 

Christine: Just to explain to people. 

Em: Like a cartoon. 

Christine: Like a cartoon almost of a drawing of this car getting picked up. First of all, there’s a kangaroo on the side, which is like, “Okay. Cool. You know about Australia,” I guess. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And then it’s getting picked up by a UFO with an alien it, and their license plate says “ET 1.” And there’s literally– Yeah, the three brothers and the mom like just screaming in the car. 

Em: So this is the best part of the story– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –is that they were like, “Oh, let’s like play– poke fun at this while like tires are in conversation, and maybe we’ll get some Dunlop tire work–” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: “–or, uh, some marketing out of this.” Well, th-they didn’t know, but apparently, the family actually was using Dunlop tires. And they’re the ones that blew out. 

Christine: Shut the fuck up. 

Em: So it was just like a funny moment of like “oopsies!” but– 

Christine: That’s wonderful. Way to draw attention to yourself, Dunlop. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. So anyway, that is the Knowles Family Incident. 

Christine: That’s kind of a great like, um, turnaround though if you’re like, “Oh, uh”– if like something happens, your product kinda completely flops in public, and then you just post an ad like, “Should have used our product!” And it’s like, “Well, they did.” 

Em: “Nothing flops like a Dunlop.” 

Christine: Oh, that’s good, Em! See? See? 

Em: See? 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Well, so– And I’ll, I’ll end on the family swears that they had this experience. They were not changed by the results of any evidence. 

Christine: I believe them. 

Em: And any time they got interviewed, they were like, “If you don’t believe us, fine. But I hope this never happens to you– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “–‘cause no one will believe you. You’ll look fucking crazy. And sorry about it.” Like this is– this was– They even, um– I don’t know why, but they decided that they were moving back and had to drive the other direction. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And they were too scared to drive, so they just, they flew home. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: But they were too scared after this to get back in a car, so– 

Christine: I bet the dogs never wanted to get in a car again, honestly. 

Em: I’m sure. So anyway, it– The family, to this day, it seems, believes it. But– 

Christine: That’s incredible. 

Em: –there’s no way to know. 

Christine: What is your, uh, gut reaction, do you think? 

Em: I don’t know. I– That superior mirage thing really does trip me out like I’m totally second-guessing every time I thought I saw something. 

Christine: Right? Every time– I was gonna say like I think I would be completely perplexed if I saw something like that. 

Em: Yeah. I don’t know. I’ve– I, I’m usually always on the side of like people seeing something really fucking weird. 

Christine: Yeah, same. 

Em: But I guess a superior mirage is also something really weird to see. I don’t know. 

Christine: I know. It’s a– I think of all of them this is one of the best ones that y– that has been d– explai– potentially explained. 

Em: Potentially explained. 

Christine: Like I think this is the most convincing explanation I’ve heard so far, I would say. 

Em: Me too. 

Christine: Um, wow. Cool story. I’ve never heard of it before. 

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Christine’s Story – Polly Klaas 

Christine: Alrighty. I have a, a really dark story for us today, uh, as usual. 

Em: Good. 

Christine: Yeah, you’re welcome. Um, it’s the story of Polly Klaas. So I’m just gonna hop right into, into it. It was late at night on October 1st, 1993, when police received a call about a missing child in the town of Petaluma, California, which is 45 minutes north of San Francisco. The woman on the phone seemed somehow out of it, like sort of drowsy and confused. And then the woman on the phone sort of handed the phone to a young girl. And the young girl came on the line and told police that she was staying at the house for a slumber party, and a man had come inside, attacked her and her friends, and had taken the girl who lived there – 12-year-old Polly Klaas. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: So the authorities responded to a very strange scene. There had been no forced entry at the house, but Polly’s classmates, Kate McLean and Gillian Pelham, ha– were both there, and they described a horrible ordeal. So these three girls – they’re 12. They’re in seventh grade together. That day at school, they made plans for a slumber party. And this is where, to me, this case was so haunting like I had nightmares last night. Because it’s just so familiar, you know– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –this idea that like three little girls are at school. They make plans for a slumber party. Um, their fourth friend– 

Em: Yeah. Harmless. 

Christine: It feels so innocent, so harmless, so relatable, and so f– sweet. Um, they had a fourth friend named Annette Nelson, who was actually interviewed on 20/20, and she was devastated because she had a cold, so she couldn’t go to the slumber party. 

Em: [sighs] Oh my god. 

Christine: Now imagine missing this whole event. 

Em: The survivor’s guilt. 

Christine: Yeah. So Polly’s mom, Eve Nichol, agreed to host the sleepover, and Polly’s younger sister, Annie, went to bed with Eve, her mom, that night, like ba-basically went to sleep in her mom’s room, so that the girls could have the bedroom to themselves. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So the trio was up late. They were trying on Halloween costumes and like planning what they were gonna be for Halloween. It really breaks my heart. Um, and they were playing with makeup. And around 10:30, they decided to get ready for bed. Oh my gosh, sorry. I’m just like– It just gives me the chills. Polly was going to get their sleeping bags from another room. So she stood up and said, “I’m going to go grab the sleeping bags.” She opens the– her bedroom door, and there’s just a man standing there with a knife. 

Em: [gasps] Oh my god. 

Christine: In the literal hallway in front of her as she’s just– 

Em: Which like how long was he just standing there and hearing like little girls have a good time? 

Christine: Play with makeup. Like sick. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: Sick. He told the girls that if they made any sound, he would slit their throats with the knife. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: For a moment, one of the girls, Kate, thought maybe this was some sort of like sick prank, right? ’Cause your brain is like trying to make sense of this. But the terrified girls had to obey. They had no choice. And so he made them lie face down. He gagged and blindfolded them with cloth, and he bound their hands with cords he cut from a video game console in the room. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: So there was like a Nintendo 64 or something, um, and he had like cut the actual wiring of the controllers to bind their hands. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: He promised not to hurt them. He said he was a burglar and asked which of the girls lived in the house. 

Em: [sighs] Fuck. 

Christine: I know. My stomach hurts. Polly said, “I do,” so he took her with him, supposedly so she could show him around the house to anything valuable. He told Kate and Gillian to count to 1,000 and said he would bring Polly back before they reached 1,000. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: Which, I mean, as far as criminals go, like pretty fucking smart– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –to be like, “I, I’ll– Just show me where the valuables are. You guys count to 1,000, and I’ll bring her back.” You know? It feels like it makes almost enough sense that you would just believe it in the moment. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So I love this because the second that he walks out of the room, Gillian, who was a gymnast, is like, “I’m getting the fuck out of these bindings.” 

Em: You go, girl. 

Christine: So– I know. So immediately, she maneuvers her hands around her legs and like frees herself and then her friend, Kate. They run to Eve’s room, which is, which is the mom, and it’s connected to Polly’s by a Jack and Jill bathroom. So literally imagine how close. Like these two rooms share a bathroom, and– 

Em: And like the mom, it’s like, it’s like she was, she was so close to being hurt herself. 

Christine: So close. I have like goose cam. I mean, and with their– with her other daughter in the bed with her, you know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So they run to the mom’s room, which is connected to Polly’s by this bathroom. Um, Eve had gone to bed earlier with a migraine. And she had actually taken like a sleep aid to go to sleep because she had a migraine. And so that’s why– Remember when she called the police and she was so drowsy and out of it? 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And she didn’t fully understand what was happening? It’s because she had taken like something for her migraine, um, but that was also made her drowsy. 

Em: Gotcha. 

Christine: And so sh– when she was asleep and was woken up, she like barely understood what these girls were shouting and saying and– You know, of course, how do you even rationalize like Polly’s gone, you know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, so the girls woke her up. And again, it’s only 10:30– not only, but you know, it’s only 10:30. It’s not like 4 in the morning when everyone’s been out cold for hours. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: It’s, it’s 10:30. It’s just like right in the middle of the sleepover. So an APB (an all-points bulletin) went out to local authorities that a young girl had been abducted, but it wasn’t broadcast over all radio channels, so not everyone got the notification. And the APB was specifically noted “not for press release.” So it was more like an internal, uh, release– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –because the police didn’t want to create like a public media frenzy. So this was actually three years before the development of the Amber alert, and so– 

Em: Oh shit. 

Christine: –there was no Amber Alert to kind of issue at this point to quickly get first response on, you know, if anybody alerts– can alert the police to seeing a missing car or, or the car that’s, you know, suspected to have the child. Um, and so this just wasn’t part of the norm at this point. In the most crucial moments following her kidnapping, nobody in Petaluma even knew that she was missing. Um, so meanwhile, police start canvassing the neighborhood for any information they could get, but Petaluma is a very like s-safe quiet town. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, very peaceful neighborhood, and the people there were just totally taken aback and had no idea and no kind of wherewithal to have looked for anything suspicious the night before. For example, Eve, the mom, had gone to bed at night with several windows open because it was really warm out. I mean, I do that, you know. I mean, I guess not anymore, but– 

Em: I did it last night. Shit, like– 

Christine: Right? Like it– I– All the time. It’s just– It’s– Even though this is decades earlier, like [sighs] it’s just really scary. 

Em: [unintelligible] Well, also like you shouldn’t have to feel fear in your own home to just sleep with a window open. 

Christine: No, no. Agreed. Agreed. So she had gone to bed that night with several windows open because it was so warm out, and Polly may have even accidentally left the back door unlocked if sh– like because she had been in and out earlier that day. They weren’t really sure. One of Polly’s best friends, Annette Nelson, said that the house, uh– Ooh, sorry. One of Polly’s best friends, Annette Nelson, said that the back door – like this, this door that may have been left unlocked – was a place where kids left notes for their parents when they went out to play with friends. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And so like nobody really worried if that door was unlocked or open or opening and closing. That was kind of where the kids would go. So when a neighbor saw Polly’s abductor enter Eve’s house that night, it didn’t quite seem suspicious, um, because the door was just unlocked. So the man walked in with such casual confidence that they assumed he was just a house guest and moved on. Like there was just no fear in this neighborhood. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: It wasn’t the middle of the night, like I said. You know, it’s like 10:30, and, of course, it’s late, but it’s like presumably this could be a parent picking up their kid– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –or a friend stopping by for a drink like– 

Em: Or like one of the parents’ siblings stopping by. 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. A family member, somebody, an uncle. Um, the lights at h– the lights were on ’cause the kids were up and playing. Um, an adult was home, so it just– 

Em: Yeah, it just looked like a group of people was over. 

Christine: Yeah, it didn’t seem suspicious at all. And this was such a bold crime that the police were completely shocked, um, as was the neighborhood, of course. And they immediately involved the FBI ’cause they knew this was like– they needed all hands on deck. So specialists on the case believed they were looking for someone who had committed similar crimes in the past because it was so bold. As the night unfolded and Eve started to really get her bearings and realize just how, how terrible this situation was, she lit a candle, and she put it in the window. And this was sort of her symbolic light to guide her daughter, Polly, home, and she said she would keep it lit until Polly came home. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Polly’s father, Marc, arrived, having spoken to Polly just hours earlier because she called to tell him how excited she was about the slumber party she was hosting. 

Em: [sighs] God. 

Christine: And her parents were divorced, but they had a really healthy relationship. Can’t relate – just kidding. [quietly] Uh, but, but not. 

Em: [laughs] Must be nice. 

Christine: [laughs] No, but so her parents had a very, uh, healthy relationship, um, despite being divorced, or, you know, at least as far as you can be, uh, co-parenting. And so, she and her dad– Polly and her dad were really, really close, and so she called him almost every day. And she had called him and told him how excited she was to have her two friends over for a slumber party. She told him all about it. And when Kate arrived– This is like another little description that they put in 20/20 which made it, to me, all the more just poignant and like I– silly and relatable. So when Kate arrived, um, I guess Polly and Gillian– Gillian had already arrived earlier, and so Polly and Gillian like posed on the sides of the porch like little stone lions to like greet her when she arrived, you know. 

Em: [sighs] Aw. 

Christine: Or like little gargoyles. 

Em: Oh my god, it’s all just so heartbreaking and precious. 

Christine: That’s– Yes, it’s like, oh, we’ve all done silly stuff like, “Oh, when she arriv– like, let’s pretend we’re gargoyles.” Like, you know, just silly, silly play. And it’s just so sick. It just made my heart break, so. Um, that was just a little like lead up to, to, uh, to the party. Marc and Polly were very close. Polly was a “daddy’s girl.” And he said in an interview, for example: “Where my marriage was really a total disaster with Eve, our divorce was quite successful.” [laughs] So, um– 

Em: Hey, alright. 

Christine: –you know, at, at least they had that. And at this point, in 1984, Polly was living with her mom in Petaluma and her stepdad and her half-sister, Annie. Um, and Marc and Eve, like I said, were great co-parents. Uh, Marc saw her– Polly every week. They spent a lot of time together. He said the last thing, uh, that they had said on the phone to each other that evening is– she said, “I love you, Daddy.” And he said, “I love you too, baby.” And that was the last time they ever spoke. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Now, I don’t know if you know much about Petaluma, Em. Do you? 

Em: Mm-mmm. No. 

Christine: Okay. So I had a friend from there who worked at Disney with me. Um, I’ve never been, but just the way he described it and the way I’ve kind of looked it up, it’s– it seems like a very idyllic town. Like last night, I was researching it, and I thought to myself, honestly, if I was not so afraid of the Big One, the big earthquake– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –I may– I would– if I were moving back to the West Coast, this is a place I would consider ’cause it’s really– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: It’s like 45 minutes or an hour from San Francisco, so it’s like near a big city. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But it’s like a historic town. It has its own like history and culture. Uh, they’ve got cheese, wine, historic tours and buildings. I mean, it’s just– it’s made for me. 

Em: Very Christine. 

Christine: It’s made for me, yeah. Um, according to 20/20, in the early ‘90s, Petaluma was probably even more idyllic than it, you know, would be later on. Actually, it was even used– the town was used as the setting for one of Ronald Reagan’s campaign ads. That’s how– 

Em: Oh damn. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s like how Americana this place is, right? And so in the ad, he’s literally riding a tractor around. Like it’s just– 

Em: Bye. Are you kidding me? 

Christine: Yeah, but– Goodbye. It’s very silly. Um, so this is– 

Em: If you, if you– Sorry. If you had to do a campaign, a presidential campaign, where would you shoot it? Do you think Petaluma? 

Christine: No! No, yeah, I where, where my forefather Ronald Reagan shot his ad campaign. 

Em: Well, I would– Obviously, mine would be that Galena place that I found forever ago. 

Christine: Oh, yeah! Duh. 

Em: But the c– 

Christine: Well, we’d obviously be running together, so I don’t think we get to pick our own spot. 

Em: I think yours would be like Salem, for sure. Something– 

Christine: No, mine would be like some random ass place in like Appalachia– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –with a l– 

Em: Okay, cool. 

Christine: –with a lot of ghosts and a train track. 

Em: Okay, actually that does track a little bit. 

Christine: Yeah, right? 

Em: Okay, cool. Yeah. 

Christine: [sighs] Okay. So, once the news broke the next day of Polly’s kidnapping, Petaluma leapt into action, and residents formed unofficial search parties throughout town. They walked in kind of like those linked lines to, to search for any sign of Polly. People gathered at a local print shop, taking phone calls, distributing thousands of flyers with Polly’s name and information. And– 

Em: Some real community. 

Christine: Yeah, they really did like band together, especially because this was just so unheard of in the area. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And Marc, the dad, was extremely involved as well in media coverage of Polly. Um, he just wanted the story to keep getting blasted out there on the media. And, as often happens in these cases, especially when people involved are on TV a lot, uh, people started calling in and saying, “Hey, you better look into that dad, ’cause he’s not–“ 

Em: Of course. 

Christine: “–sad enough on the TV.” You know? Or– 

Em: “They had a successful divorce – whatever that means.” 

Christine: “Yeah, right. That can’t be right.” Yeah, exactly. And so they would call the tip line, accusing him of suspicious behavior just like from watching him on TV– 

Em: Great. 

Christine: –um, which is really helpful, thank you, everybody. And don’t you think they already would look into the dad immediately? 

Em: Yeah, pretty sure th– we already know he’s suspect number one. 

Christine: Yeah, thank you for your tip though, caller. Jeez. Such a waste of time. Um, sorry. Now, I don’t know why I’m so mad, but it’s like if you don’t have a– 

Em: [laughs] I’m heated. 

Christine: Right! Like if you don’t have a real tip that’s actually gonna help, then why are you wasting everyone’s time? Don’t call just to call. 

Em: I, I think because– I don’t know about you, but I think if I went missing my dad would go, “That’s sad,” and then just kind of keep it moving. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I– It’s like finally there’s a man who’s like worthy of, uh, a pat on the back, and, uh– 

Christine: Of the a– Yes, of the actual– Yeah. 

Em: I just– I’m protective of him. That poor man. 

Christine: [laughs] I know. I know. I get it though, yeah. I’m with you. It’s like of all people, he’s working– he’s literally killing himself to do this. It’s like very sad. He became so exhausted actually, speaking on that, that he almost like had a melt– like a breakdown. I mean, he was like at the end, end of his rope. And he was trying to hold it together on TV, and then people are calling and saying, “You did it!” You know? And he just can’t catch a fucking break. 

Em: I’d snap. I’d fucking snap. 

Christine: I would snap. I mean, imagine. Like I would break down. But he decided he needed to continue appearing publicly for Polly. One of his friends even came over and said like, “You gotta just push through this like a little longer. Polly needs you.” You know, and so he got a little pep talk and got back on the horse. And this case ended up being featured on America’s Most Wanted. 

Em: Oh wow. 

Christine: And that brought national attention to Polly’s abduction. So much so that actress Winona Ryder, uh, who grew up in Petaluma and went to the same school as Polly– 

Em: Oh wow. 

Christine: –found the story. And at this point, in 1984, she was famous for films like Heathers, Beetlejuice, Edward Scissorhands– 

Em: Oh, she was having a moment. She was– 

Christine: –and Dracula. Yeah, she was i-in the big leagues. And yeah. She saw this story about Polly and immediately like felt for the girl. And Polly actually was an actress like at her school. 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: She was in the theater department, and so she actually really loved Winona Ryder. And so, you know, Winona Ryder hears this and sees this story coming from her own school, like her own middle school and her own hometown, um, and she’s just completely taken in and drawn to this story. And actually, Winona and Polly even shared some of the same teachers– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and a favorite book that they’d read in school, Little Women, was their favorite shared book. And so Winona actually showed up in person to participate in the search effort, put up $200,000, uh, as a reward for information leading to Polly’s return. And of course, this also sparked like media interest, you know, because now– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –an A-list celebrity’s involved. And, um, you know, it was really heart-warming, and they have footage of Winona Ryder arriving. And they even described– Like she showed up, no makeup– like it wasn’t like a press thing for her. She showed up like– 

Em: Right, it wasn’t about her. 

Christine: Yes. And I thought that was just like very classy. I was like she just seems like really, uh, taken by this story, and I just thought it was, um, a very heartwarming thing. Uh, you know, at least as much as anything in this story can be heartwarming. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But Polly herself, um, she was described as outgoing, sassy, charming, sensitive, talented. She was in the local plays. She played the clarinet. She had a natural stage presence that like people au-automatically were drawn to. And I actually like the way Polly was described ’cause I haven’t really heard a kid described this way or a person in any of these stories, and I think this is really poignant. Um, in 20/20, uh, one of the women who wrote a book about the case described Polly as “the girl who reminded everyone of someone they loved–“ 

Em: Aw! 

Christine: “–whether it was a daughter or a friend or a niece.” Isn’t that just like– 

Em: That’s a great description. 

Christine: I just– That gave me goose cam ’cause I was like, “Wow. What a powerful way to say that.” You know? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Instead of like, “She lit up a room,” which I think means something but has gotten so just– 

Em: Like we all have, you know. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, it’s all rote. It’s all very just kinda cliché at this point. But, yeah, I thought that was really nice. Um, so. Yeah, Winona showed up, and, of course, this put more attention on the abduction story. But there were all these false leads still coming in about– or, or just like tips that were not helpful about the dad or what have you. Um, one girl actually– This is really fucked up. 

Em: Hm? 

Christine: I, uh– As I watched this, my jaw was on the floor. Okay? So the family at one point got a phone call in the middle of the night. And– Or I don’t know if it’s the middle of the night, but it was at night. Polly’s mom answers the phone, and a little girl says, “Hi, it’s Polly.” 

Em: It– [sighs] ‘Kay. 

Christine: And detectives trace the call (’cause of course they’re already monitoring calls to the house), burst through the door with like weapons blazing at this California home, and there’s just this family asleep in the house. And– 

Em: She just fucking pranked them? 

Christine: It’s a prank. She said her friends– 

Em: Whatever… Oh my god. 

Christine: She said her friends dared her to make the call. You better believe that girl is never gonna prank someone again. 

Em: You better believe that she still loses sleep to this day about that. 

Christine: Big time. To have like weapons drawn, burst into your home is traumatizing enough. Then to get in trouble for causing it? 

Em: Well, to just be in your– 

Christine: And then to be– 

Em: Just to go to sleep at night and just think about, “Oh, I did that to somebody who was missing their baby.” 

Christine: Well, and also it– also im– I know, and to be older and realize like how fucked up that was ’cause as a kid you probably don’t realize, you know. The empathy hasn’t quite kicked in yet. [laughs] 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But imagine also being the friend who pushed her to do it and was like– 

Em: [inhales deeply] Ooh. 

Christine: –was like bullying her into doing it or whatever. I just imagine like, “Oopsie. That was not a good idea.” 

Em: Yeah, that’s bad. That’s bad. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s really fucking bad. Um, and so that was kind of just a– one of those dead-ends that was a little more dramatic than the others. But as days continued, the days turned into weeks, and the search for Polly became desperate. The detectives on the case repeatedly interviewed Polly’s friends, Gillian and Kate. And they are 12-years-old, and they’ve experienced unimaginable trauma the night Polly was– 

Em: Yeah, so stressful. Jesus Christ. 

Christine: So horrific. And now investigators are treating them with suspicion, thinking maybe they know more about Polly’s disappearance than they actually do. 

Em: Oh my god. Please. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: You think 12-year-olds are little masterminds at losing their fucking friend? 

Christine: Right? And at the time– Exactly. And at the time, like they were like, “Oh, maybe she went off with a boyfriend, and they’re just not telling us,” you know? And these girls are just like so deeply traumatized by this event. 

Em: It’s like, “I got fucking hogtied by cables.” 

Christine: Exactly! And now to be, and now to be almost blamed for it or blamed that, that, that they’re the reason you’re not finding– they’re not finding your friend? And it– At the time, also they made a good point that they didn’t have the resources to have people who could communicate directly with children as a car– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –like who, who were specialized in communicating with children, especially in an interrogation setting. And so this was just full-on cops like interrogating 12-year-old girls, and– Just horrifying. Just retraumatizing them. 

Em: At that point, I’m k– I’m kind of just surprised then that neither of them broke and said something they didn’t even mean just to get them off their backs. 

Christine: So that’s actually kind of how they described it. Um, ’cause detectives were just pressuring them to give any new information, but there was none to give. And the girls later said in an interview, kinda like what you just said, that it felt like detectives kept asking the same questions to trick them into saying something that wasn’t true– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –and that they would only be left alone if they said the thing that the police wanted to hear. Like, you know, we hear this about– 

Em: So bad police work. [laughs] 

Christine: –coerced, like coerced confessions, that kind of thing. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, and the investigators, of course, thought it was strange that Kate and Gillian didn’t seem traumatized by, uh, you know, by this the way that two little girls should be traumatized – by “crying and shaking,” quote unquote. And it’s like, dude. 

Em: Please. 

Christine: That pisses me right off. Um. 

Em: That, that T’s me right O. 

Christine: It T’s me right O. And I will say that, uh, these same investigators have since come on camera and apologized and said– 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: –“If they ever hear this, I want them to know we made a huge mistake, and that was really inappropriate.” And I was like, “Okay. Alright.” 

Em: Sure. Sure. 

Christine: At least own up to it, you know. Both girls did polygraph tests, and, uh, Gillian passed, and Kate’s was inconclusive. But– This is really sad. It was later noted that before the polygraph, Kate was in visible distress. She was holding a teddy bear. She was completely freaked out, and that could have affected the test results. So even– Those aren’t even helpful, right? They’re just putting these kids through this for some reason. 

Em: You’re just describing someone who’s gone through a lot. 

Christine: Yes, yes. So eventually, the treatment of both girls became so intense that their parents told police and FBI they were not allowed to speak to the girls anymore. And now a woman, who’s one of my heroes, Jeanne Boylan, steps in. She’s a forensic artist with experience advocating for people involved in criminal investigations. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Vulnerable people like kids, women, people who have experienced something traumatizing. 

Em: Oh, I love her. 

Christine: I love her. And she came in and said, “More than anything, these girls just needed to speak, and they needed to be believed.” Because– I mean, the police are basically trying to get them to say something that didn’t happen, and they’re trying to tell the truth, and no one’s listening. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And it’s like that’s gotta feel so unsettling. 

Em: Invalidating. 

Christine: And invalidating. Exactly. She spent more than nine hours with the girls, just calmly listening– just listening to the story and having them tell everything they could remember, just nodding along, being there for them, um, and almost just guiding them, like holding their hand, so to speak, as, as they talked through the entire event. Nine hours she spent with them. And they had released a sketch already to the public, but it was like not a good one, and people said it– and even the girls said like that didn’t really look like him. After spending nine hours with the girls, this forensic artist, Jeanne, was able to draw like a portrait of this man. 

Em: I love women. 

Christine: I love women. So they take this portrait. And first of all, I love Jeanne ’cause like– First of all, she’s so beautiful. Like in the videos now, she’s older, but she– like you can just tell she’s just very like, uh– I don’t know, just a– 

Em: Ethereal beauty. 

Christine: Yes! She’s a very ethereal person, that’s right. And like this video of her– or this photo of her from the ‘80s is hilarious because she almost looks the same now but like just in modern day, but like look at her hair with the, the voluminous bangs. 

Em: Oh, she’s– Yeah. 

Christine: It’s hilarious, so she steps in– 

Em: She’s a looker. 

Christine: Yeah, and she’s just like, “I’m done with this nonsense, and I am gonna figure out how to make–“ Here’s a portrait she drew. Hold on. And I just love that in addition to being a forensic artist, she was also just a very empathetic, empathic person to be with– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –to be with the kids that whole time. 

Em: Oh damn. She really was able to sketch the hell out of a man. 

Christine: Is that not like a portrait, you know? 

Em: That’s a literal portrait. That looks like a painting. Wow. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s like a full-on, uh, reali– realism sketch of this person. And she actually did the, uh, portrait for the Unabomber as well, fun fact. 

Em: Oh shit. Wow, okay. 

Christine: Yeah, the very famous one that actually I’m gonna send you now as well. 

Em: She literally is like, “Step aside. I’ll fucking just–“ 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: “I can just handle it.” Yeah. 

Christine: Look at this, look at this gal and the cover of her freaking book. It’s called Portraits of Guilt: The Woman Who Profiles the Faces of America’s Deadliest Criminals, Jeanne Boylan. And then at the bottom are all like some of her f– not all, but some of her famous, um, sketches. 

Em: Good for her. 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] Look at her jeans, her like ‘80s outfit. Anyway, I just love her. I love Jeanne Boylan and the way that she just like took these girls under their wing– un-under her wing after they were like retraumatized I just thought was really touching. So they– Anyway, she makes this photo– or, sorry, not this photo. She makes this drawing, um, this sketch, and it’s a much more realistic sketch than the one they had before and much more detailed. And so, now the date is November 27th. It’s been nearly two months since the kidnapping, and a woman named Dana Jaffe called the police about something strange she had just discovered in the woods near her home. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. 

Christine: She was– Yeah. 

Em: That’s a– 

Christine: That’s got– Tha– 

Em: That, that sentence could be anything. 

Christine: Hey, this is going to go 1 of 800 different ways, and they’re not good. 

Em: “Hey, I, I, I hope I’m not, hope I’m not waking you, but I– Something weird is in the woods.” Nothing normal’s in the woods. 

Christine: Yeah. “I found something strange. Wouldn’t you know it?” 

Em: What’d she find? 

Christine: And I’m here to tell you about it. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: So she was out for a hike with a friend when she came across an adult sweatshirt turned inside out and a pair of little girl’s red tights. 

Em: Oh god. 

Christine: And some of the fabric had been tied into knots. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And there was a used condom as well. 

Em: [gasps] Oh my god. 

Christine: Yeah. And you know, you know that like sinking feeli- like you know, you find that that something terrible’s happened. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: A detective on Polly’s case responded and, of course, felt sick when he se– saw the knotted fabric and realized that’s exactly what Kate and Gillian had had in the bedroom that they had been tied up with. So he knew this came from Polly’s bedroom, this fabric. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And that it was tied the same way as the killer had done it to, uh, to the other girls. He had a sinking feeling that Polly had been taken here to the woods by Dana’s house. And, weirdly enough, this was not the first 911 call that Dana had made since Polly’s abduction of strange things happening around her property. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: On October 1st – remember, this is the night of the slumber party, the night that she was kidnapped – just two hours after Polly was taken, Dana called the police reporting a trespasser on her property. She called, and this person was on the edge of– So her property was on the edge of Santa Rosa, California, which was just under 30 minutes from Petaluma. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: She worked– Dana Jaffe worked as a chef at a local restaurant. She was a single mother with a 12-year-old daughter of her own, so like same age. She had just come home from work and said good night to the babysitter, who left in her car down this like long, wooded, dark driveway. And as the babysitter is driving down the driveway, she sees this man whose car is stuck in a ditch on the side of the road. He’s wearing an inside-out sweatshirt. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: The babysitter stops. Her door is locked, and she cracks her windows like this much, right? [holds up thumb and index finger with small gap between them] ’Cause, you know– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –that, that instinct of like you want– 

Em: “I want to help, but–“ 

Christine: Yeah, they’re al– They’re like, “Roll down your window.” And you’re like, “I don’t really want to, but–“ So she rolls it down a crack. This motherfucker jams his hand through the crack of the window. 

Em: That’s when you roll that sh-shit up. Break it. Break her fingers off. 

Christine: She rolled that shit up, and he p– got his hand out, but he started yelling, “You have to help me and get my car– help me figure out how to get my car out of the ditch.” She rolled her windows back up, sped off. As soon as she got to a phone, she called Dana and said, “There’s some guy in your driveway. I stopped to ask him what was going on, and he pushed his hand inside the open window.” 

Em: Thank god she called. 

Christine: Thank god. And so Dana tells her daughter to get dressed immediately, and she said, “We are on the outskirts of town in a dark area. There’s this sketchy guy outside. We’re vulnerable. I– I’m a single mom of a girl.” 

Em: “Get in the car. We’re going somewhere else.” Yeah. 

Christine: “Like, get in the car.” So she takes mace and a baseball bat. They drive down the long steep driveway, and they see the vehicle. But the man is not with it. So Dana calls 911, and when authorities respond, they find the man. He had returned to his vehicle, and he told them he had gotten lost while sightseeing. 

Em: S– In the fucking pitch black? In the woods? 

Christine: I-in the night time in someone’s driveway? 

Em: What were you sightseeing, you Peeping Tom? What were you sightseeing? 

Christine: Insane. This was after midnight. Insanity. The man apparently smelled terrible, like that was one of the descriptions that people noticed immediately. And he seemed afraid, very afraid. And uh, Dana even described it as smelling the scent of fear on the man. 

Em: Ew. 

Christine: Isn’t that the scariest thing you’ve ever heard? She said she could just smell like a primal fear emanating off him, and I just thought that was so s-sickening. 

Em: I hate that. 

Christine: His hair was also full of leaves, fun fact. 

Em: What’s he sightseeing? What was he doing? [laughs] 

Christine: They asked why his hair was full of leaves. He said he’s been crawling on the ground, and they said, “Oh, sightseeing down there? What you doing?” 

Em: [laughs] Looking down a hole. What are you doing? 

Christine: And he said, “I was just looking on the ground, finding a little earthworm to play with.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t know. Um, and they said, “What the fuck is all over your hair? And why are you covered in leaves?” And he said, “Oh, I was trying to pull brush out from under my tires.” And they like look, and they’re like, “There’s no brush here.” 

Em: He’s like, “Well, I did a good job then, didn’t I?” 

Christine: Yeah. “Well, I must have cleaned up that real well.” Uh, I had that exact same thought, Em. So although the babysitter said he was in a sweatshirt, Dana, when she finally saw the guy and the police were there, noticed he was not wearing a sweatshirt. And it was gone. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: Now, remember – two months later, she finds this exact sweatshirt in the woods with the red tights– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –and the knotted fabric. So this is where she saw it for the first time– Or, or at least the babysitter saw the inside out sweatshirt. She never saw it until she found it in the woods months later. The deputies told Dana they could arrest him on trespassing charges if she wanted to press charges but that would mean he would have to come back to the property to get his car. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And it would be like a longer process. And so she said, “I just want him out of here, please.” And, of course, not knowing about the, the abduction that evening, this was just not even on their radar. So she chose not to press charges, and she went home while the authorities helped him free his car. They told Dana that they escorted him down the road until they felt he was safely on his way out of town and away from her home. Now, this man was 39-year-old Richard Allen Davis. And that night, deputies had looked at his ID and confirmed by radio that there were no outstanding warrants for his arrest before they saw him on his way, because if there was a warrant, they would’ve arrested him on the spot. However, at the time, there was no way to check someone’s rap sheet, to check their criminal record from the road over the radio. Um, and so they weren’t able to check if this guy had a criminal record, which he absolutely did. And if they had seen, um, that he had only been paroled just months earlier after serving time for abducting a woman, then maybe they would not have let him just drive away. But, unfortunately, at the time, there was just no way, and since there was no outstanding warrant, they just let him go. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: So he had actually been serving time for abducting a woman in 1984, and he had also abducted another woman in 1976. And they didn’t even realize this– 

Em: Hm. Got a hobby. 

Christine: Yeah, that he’s got a hobby besides, uh, sightseeing on the forest floor. 

Em: On leaves, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. The police and the FBI received a tip on Richard’s whereabouts, and they organized a SWAT team to make an arrest. In custody, he initially– And I wanna just clarify this is two months later when she discovers all these objects, you know, on the, uh, on the side of the roa– or, I’m sorry, in the woods. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And, and, um, is ab– They are able to like figure out what’s going on. So police and FBI received this tip on Richard’s whereabouts. They organized a SWAT team to make an arrest. And in custody, he initially denied knowing anything at all about Polly, but after a little bit of time in jail, his lawyer contacted investigators and told them he was prepared to talk. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: So de– detectives sat down with him, and he just like drank a coffee, smoked a cigarette. And they did that thing that’s so hard to watch where they treated him like just a buddy, but it’s like to get him to talk. ’Cause like– 

Em: See, I think that’s my favorite, uh, the Elliot Stabler. That’s like– 

Christine: It’s my favorite but like watching it in person feels so icky ’cause like it’s just too– It’s just like some dude. It’s not like an actor doing it and you know better. It’s like just some random white guy cop, and you’re like, “Why are you talking to this guy like he’s your friend? Why are you giving him Coca-Cola?” But it’s like, okay, but this is nice guy– good cop, bad cop. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: You know, I– Like I get it, but it’s very unsettling to watch them treat him like a good old pal, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And so, yeah. They’re basically like, “Oh, yeah. Like just tell us what’s up, what’s going on.” And you know, I’ll be honest like watching them in the, uh, interviews later, like some of them are crying. And so it’s like they’re not– This is not easy for them, right? To play like friend. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: But it’s just really unsettling. That makes it almost more unsettling to watch. Um, okay. So anyway, he says he wants to talk, so they’re bringing him coffee, cigarettes. They ask him if he took Polly. He said yes. They asked him if Polly was alive. He said no. 

Em: [sighs] Oh… 

Christine: Richard led detectives nearly an hour north to Cloverdale, where they found Polly’s remains in a field underneath a piece of plywood. And Richard said he was kind of surprised nobody had found her there earlier. Thanks, Richard. The investigative team contacted Marc and Eve, the parents, about an update on the case. And Marc said that when he and Eve arrived, he could see tears in the detectives’ eyes, and he knew Polly was dead. 

Em: Mm. [sighs] 

Christine: So he began contacting family members to tell them, quote, “it was over.” That night, Eve blew out the candle in the window because, in some way, she felt Polly had finally come home. The case went to trial in 1996, and although Richard confessed to kidnapping and murdering Polly, he was adamant that he did not rape her. He said in questioning that he hated rapists. Wow– 

Em: Did they– Did, did they ever actually like look into the condom? 

Christine: So I don’t think there was widely used DNA evidence at the time because this would have been like ‘80s, ‘90s. 

Em: ’93, yeah. 

Christine: ’93, yeah. So I guess there was, there was– I don’t know the details on that. I don’t think they did do testing, but they very, very adamantly believed that he sexually assaulted Polly. Um, actually, I, I didn’t know, uh, much information about the condom until you asked, so– And then Em’s camera [laughs] or one of our internet went out, so, um, I had a minute to actually look it up, and I found this article from sfgate.com, which is like a San Francisco publication, from ’96, um, called “Condom Links”– “Condom Link Points to Davis.” And it says, in San Jose, “a former sex toys dealer from Ukiah told jurors that she sold–“ So she’s one of the, I guess, was– She testified on the stand during the trial. She said “she sold a pack of condoms to Richard Allen Davis just before the kidnap and killing of Polly Klaas.” 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: So she testified that it was the same brand and that, um, she, she s– witnessed that man, Richard, come into her shop, buy those exact condoms, and then they found that condom at the site of, you know, the other materials. So it’s, it’s pretty widely accepted that he did, he did rape her. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Um, he claimed he hated rapists, and he said when he’s in jail, he personally targets them. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: And it’s– Okay. So– 

Em: Thank you so much. 

Christine: Wow. Thank you for your service. Thanks so much for having a good opinion of, you know– on one right side of history. Except that you’re lying because basically he just wanted to avoid being the target of that kind of violence. Like, he’s just projecting, you know. He’s like, “I don’t wanna be attacked as a child rapist in jail because–“ 

Em: “P-please, no. Please.” 

Christine: “Please, no. Because–“ 

Em: “That’s not my style.” 

Christine: “–those guys are so bad.” And it’s like– It reminds me of BTK where it’s like you just ruined this family. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: And now you’re like, “Oh, I would never rape somebody.” It’s like, “I’m going to–“ 

Em: “Why aren’t you patting me on the back?” 

Christine: Yeah, right. Exactly. And he also insisted that this was not a premeditated crime, even though when he was being interrogated, the way he talked was like, “And then the next thing I remember, we were just like driving, and she was just like in the passenger seat.” And the in-investigators were like that is the way people who want you to believe it was not premeditated speak about a crime. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like they’ll say, “Oh, such weird. It just like happened.” As if like they hadn’t– 

Em: “I just dissociated back into reality.” 

Christine: Right. Like I just– Like as if I had no agency whatsoever. Um, and so you could tell he was trying to kind of spin it a certain way. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, when they talked about Dana Jaffe and the babysitter in the driveway, uh, he claimed Polly was alive and just sitting on an embankment near the car. [laughs] And, according to him, at this point, he later stopped at a gas station, and that’s where he strangled Polly to death. But detectives were not convinced because even if Polly had stayed completely d– silent when the babysitter like pulled up wi– and cracked the window open– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –it didn’t make sense that he could have somehow hidden Polly and then left with her while police showed up and escorted him off the property. Like police would have probably noticed if she was there somewhere alive. 

Em: 100%. 

Christine: Yeah. So the story also didn’t match with the evidence Dana discovered in the woods that Rech– Richard had left behind that night, and they believed it was more likely for that reason that Richard killed Polly somewhere between his encounter with the babysitter and Dana. And Polly’s friends, Kate and Gillian, also took the stand, um, to testify against Richard and basically tell the entire story for probably the hundredth time of what had happened that night. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: And both girls were allowed to choose one adult to be at the stand with them, and they both chose Jeanne Boylan. 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: The sketch artist. And she had– 

Em: Well, she was the only one who ever like gave them the actual– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –who respected their story and gave them the time of day and made them feel safe. 

Christine: Yeah, and she had just shown so much support throughout the investigation that they felt safe around her. So the investigative team were extremely nervous about the verdict because the O.J. Simpson trial had recently ended, and things went awry, as you know, in that case. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And one person involved in Polly’s case said that he refused to make any of the same mistakes he felt prosecution made on the O.J. Simpson case. So there was just a lot of pressure that like things needed to go right, and they couldn’t fuck it up. He fr– He felt the pressure to build the strongest possible case against Richard with no loopholes whatsoever, which included a confession as well as physical evidence, like fingerprints. Thankfully, the FBI, at the time, had this fluorescent powder that was a hundred times more sensitive than the like standard fingerprint powder used by police back then. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: I know. And so they were able to pick– I think they said they were able to pick up 48 prints that had been missed previously at the scene of the crime. 

Em: [scoffs] Damn. 

Christine: Because they were just not able to be picked up with like the previous powder. They were also able to pick up a palm print. And this palmprint– When this was collected, the FBI agent who was on the scene wrote in his notebook, “Bingo.” 

Em: Ooh! Well, that’ll do it. 

Christine: Lo and behold, the print traced right back to Richard, so now they had his fucking handprint at the scene of the crime. 

Em: Not even fingerprint. Whole ass hand. 

Christine: Whole ass hand. When the jury returned with a guilty verdict, Richard turned toward Polly’s dad– 

Em: Oh god. 

Christine: –and the cameras and gave two middle fingers. 

Em: [exhales sharply] Wh– My jaw’s on the floor. But also it’s exactly– It put– 

Christine: It get– It gets wor– It gets worse actually. 

Em: What? 

Christine: I know that that’s shocking, and it is. And cameras picked it up, and everyone gasped. It gets worse. [laughs] This guy. This motherfucking guy. It all started with the fucking fingers in the window, and I went, “This guy is trouble. Big time.” I mean, obviously it all started when he started crime-ing around the place, but, I mean, this guy’s mannerisms are so unhinged, I’m like– So Richard was ultimately sentenced to death, which is, you know, in California, was, at the time especially, the highest, uh, sentence you could get. And he is still in prison today, even though in 2019, um, which I recall this happening, uh, Governor Newsom put a moratorium on the death penalty in California. So there’s kind of like an uncertain future as to people on death row, but for right now, he, uh, he remains in prison. Um, but when the jury did return with this guilty verdict, uh, to all charges and after [Richard] giving the middle finger, the judge asked if he wanted to make a statement, and he said he did. He pulled out a piece of paper, and he began to read. And he said when he took Polly up to that embankment– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –off Dana’s driveway, Polly said to him, “Just don’t do me like my dad,” and [Richard] basically accused her dad of raping her. 

Em: What? 

Christine: As just a fuck you as his last statement, as like his last statement before– 

Em: Oh, so she didn’t actually say that. 

Christine: No. 

Em: He just wrote it as like a– 

Christine: He just decided to say, “Oh, she just said she didn’t want me to rape her like her daddy did.” And this man, Marc– His mother’s sitting next to him, and he says, “She almost died.” He was like, “I swear to God. She just like almost just collapsed next to me, almost died.” And he said he just couldn’t even think straight. And all of a sudden, he is on his feet, and he is– 

Em: Ripping him apart? 

Christine: –being restrained by bailiffs ’cause he is trying to attack this man. 

Em: Good. Good. That’s fine. 

Christine: And he’s removed from the courtroom. And it’s just like this guy wanted one more just like punch while you’re down– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –just to say, “Fuck you. I’m a psychopath, and I give zero shits about you. And like I have one last chance to say anything? Well, I’m just gonna make you even more pissed o– I’m gonna ruin– I’m gonna make this even harder for you,” you know? 

Em: “I’m just gonna make this memory even worse.” Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. “I’ve raped and killed your daughter, your little daughter, and now I’m gonna make it even worse somehow.” So Richard, thankfully, was, you know, sentenced, put away, um, still in prison today. And it’s been 31 years since Polly’s death. We’re recording this in December of ’24. Uh, her family still r– struggles to heal from this. Marc Klaas said in an interview that people say it’s time to move on, but the way he lost a child is something you just can’t put behind him. And he told ABC News, “I think her legacy is strong, I do, but still, I’d trade it for a hug.” 

Em: That’s a– [sighs] Wow. Heartbreaking. 

Christine: I cried at that. Polly’s abduction and murder bolstered public support for California’s highly controversial three-strikes law, which requires that anyone who was chur– charged with a third-time felony offense in the state of California be sentenced to life in prison without parole. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So it’s like three strikes, you are out. And the legislation gained momentum because California voters were outraged and demanding to know why this repeat like abductor was out on the streets and was able to get this little girl. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So the three-strikes legislation promised to keep the public safe from dangerous violent people with multiple felony convictions. But a government study published more than a decade later found that l– fewer than half of the people convicted and sentenced had even committed crimes against other persons. So a lot of this was for felony drug possession– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –and are now in prison for life because of it, which, as you ima– can imagine, is nee– needs to fucking be looked at and changed. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So according to Stanford University, the law is also controversial because, of course, it disproportionately impacts minority populations, like mentally ill, physically disabled people; nearly half of all the imp– people imprisoned under this law are Black. And so that is just like, you know, a little insight into how these things can go wrong. I know we’ve also talked about how the, uh, sex offender registry has caused a lot of problems that even the people who helped create it have been trying to institute changes to the, to the laws there. Um, and so, you know, hopefully someday we find a better system. When Polly was missing, her younger sister, Annie, wanted to help find her. And Annie asked the detectives if she could help, and they just were like, “I mean, we can’t say no, like you want to help find your big sister.” So Annie actually spent time with the investigators when they were at her house, and they tried to make her feel involved by saying like, “Can you hand me a tool, you know, that I can use?” And so she would like hand them the tools, um, and if she had questions, they would talk to her about it. And today, Annie and her, her own younger sister, Jess, have spoken out publicly against the three-strikes law. So this is Polly’s sister. 

Em: Oh wow. 

Christine: Yeah. And she’s talked against this. They’ve actually created a podcast together– 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: –Polly’s younger sister. 

Em: Well, hey! 

Christine: Or two younger sisters. Yeah. And they created this podcast, which they say is their “contribution to the journey out of punitive sentencing and tough-on-crime attitudes as we work toward a new vision of justice and healing in this country. Rather than incarcerating people after the fact, we are looking for ways to prevent crime by seeking out restorative and community-based solutions that address violence at the source.” I mean, what? That is amazing. That is amazing. 

Em: What’s the, what’s the name of the podcast? 

Christine: Um, so the podcast is called A New Legacy. And, um, it– Their little sub-headline is “Learning from leaders building a new vision of justice.” And I just think this is so fucking cool. 

Em: That’s great. 

Christine: So they interview different people, um, about redefining justice, uh, rebuilding lives after– people’s lives after prison, survivor-centered healing. It’s just really, really cool. I mean, what a kick ass way to– I– Talk about a legacy, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I mean, after, after going through something so traumatic and to have like one of those early memories be helping the police try to solve your sister’s abduction in your own home. Like, wow. What a story. So they aim to build a more hopeful legacy of justice and healing for Polly, for the town of Petaluma too. Um, so you can listen to A New Legacy. Beyond legislation, Polly’s own legacy prevails in the things she loved. Now, get this. In 1994, the film, Little Women, would only have studio support if Winona Ryder agreed to the starring role, and she had been hesitant. But after she became close to Polly’s family and learned Polly was a fan of the book, she ultimately agreed to do the film if the film were officially dedicated to Polly. 

Em: Wow! 

Christine: I know. 

Em: Go, Winona. 

Christine: Isn’t that, isn’t that just– Wow. Winona said of the project, “I’m looking forward to making a movie that doesn’t contribute to the misery of the world.” 

Em: Okay, that makes sense. 

Christine: Wow. Wow. The Polly Klaas Community Theater in Petaluma is a space where young performers like Polly, uh, can find a home in their community, and that’s still active. And, uh, you know, again, a legacy that she left behind. So that’s the story of Polly Klaas. 

Em: Wow. Um, well told. 

Christine: Thanks. It’s a toughie. 

Em: Yeah. Did- didn’t see that coming. [sighs] I also– Shout out again to your, um, your new, your new girl. Who’s the, the sketch artist? 

Christine: Oh yeah. Jeanne Boylan. She’s great. 

Em: Love her. 

Christine: I mean, she seems like, uh– I, I’m gonna read her book, I think. It looks really interesting. 

Em: Um, yeah. I would like to know more about her. 

Christine: Me too. I’m gonna l– do a little, do a little, uh, deep dive on her. 

Em: I think this is one of the first, um, episodes we’ve done in a while that’s under two hours. 

Christine: I can’t– I– Honestly, with tech issues, I can’t believe it. 

Em: It’s pretty, um– 

Christine: Literally shoc– It’s honestly shocking. 

Em: All we do is yap. Maybe it’s because I’m losing my voice. Maybe I– 

Christine: I mean, honestly, maybe we just felt like the time crunch of you losing your instrument so quickly. 

Em: My instrument. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It felt like the, the sands of the hourglass were– 

Christine: The sands of time. [laughs] Ahh! 

Em: [laughs] –were going away. 

Christine: Were just filling up your throat. 

Em: Yes, that’s how it does feel. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, well, let’s– While we still have maybe five minutes left with my instrument, maybe we hop over to Patreon? 

Christine: Yeah, let’s do a Yappy Hour. I wanna hear all the, all the scoop from the wedding. So, uh, we’ll go talk about that. If you want to join us, uh, it’s over on patreon.com/atwwdpodcast, and, uh, we’ll hopefully see you there. If you want to buy tickets to our spring shows, you can go to andthatswhywedrink.com/live. We also have our book available anywhere fine books are sold. And, uh, you can find us on social media @atwwdpodcast. Em is @theemschulz, and I am @xtineschiefer. And thanks for being here today. 

Em: Wow. And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink.

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