E411 A Chef Boyardee Vape Situation and a Sheepless Shephard

TOPICS: HANS TRAPP, MICHELLE MARTINKO

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What’s the 411? Episode 411 that is! This week Em is bringing the Christmas creepiness with the tale of Hans Trapp. If you thought Krampus was scary, wait until you hear about this French Christmas character! Then Christine brings us to Cedar Rapids, Iowa for the not so cold case of Michelle Martinko. And who else agrees A Christmas Carol would be much better with Tiny Tim Soprano? …and that’s why we drink!

Photos:
Christmas in Alsace with Christkindel followed by Hans Trapp
Michelle Martinko

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Transcript

[intro music]

Em: As Christine just said– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –we need to press record before we say everything funny we’ve ever said. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Wait, listen. I’m running low. I’m running on empty. I’m running on fumes, as they say. And we were just like bantering back and forth, and I was like, “Oh my god. We’re not recording. We’re gonna waste all this precious material.” 

Em: All this, all this hot commodity of words. 

Christine: Oh, it’s, it’s so good, isn’t it? We said– What– Em said, “What’s the 411? Get it? ’cause it’s the 411 episode.” And I said, “Yeah, what’s the skinny?” 

Em: You said– 

Christine: Wasn’t that worth saving for everybody? 

[laughs] 

Christine: Wasn’t that worth repeating? I would argue it’s funnier the second time even, um. 

Em: You know, Christine, speaking of moments where there’s a, a lovely little lag after one of your jokes– 

Christine: Good– [laughs] Love speaking about these incidents, yep. 

Em: I lo– I love that little clip on Beach Too Sandy where you were trying to name a, a new snowmobile or whatever f– 

Christine: No! I haven’t seen that. That’s not good. Is it where I said, “Jared Slushner”? 

Em: No, but that was funny. See, that– 

Christine: Oh, thanks. 

Em: Thank, thank you for putting that on And That’s Why We Drink, not Beach Too Sandy. 

Christine: S– [laughs] So I love that they didn’t clip my actual name, which was Jared Kl– Wait, what did I say? Jared Slushner? And then, um, I don’t know what clip you’re talking about, but I’m already– I have hives just thinking about whatever they put on social media. Um, but yeah– 

Em: It’s brilliant, but I’m glad that actually part of the comedy got to be over here too. So it’s now a– 

Christine: Well– [laughs] 

Em: –continue over to part two at And That’s Why We Drink. 

Christine: This is my like ultimate plan to just combine the podcasts so I have less work to do. 

Em: I get it. 

Christine: Um, just talk one time, and you can both use it. 

Em: I– You could just have Xandy come back as the guest host, and then you don’t have to do any work. 

Christine: Do you know how delightful that would be? I would just, uh, I would just feed him some lines like about 411 and the skinny and the scoop, and then he would be right as rain. 

Em: He would tell you, “Don’t– Please don’t give me any lines. I think I’ve got it from here.” 

Christine: I, I think so ’cause when I said Jared Slushner, he said, “Why do you always bring Jared Kushner into the jokes?” And I’m like, I don’t know why. I have a problem. I have a mental problem. I don’t know why Jared Kushner is literally always the first person that comes to my brain. It’s a sickn– 

Em: Not even Jude Law? Wow. 

Christine: It’s– I know. It’s a sickness, um. And it’s, it’s painful, and it’s hard to live with. So thank you for your acknowledgement. Anyway, um, Em, why do you drink this week? How are you doing? 

Em: Um, I drink because, uh, although it feels like last week for everybody, it was actually yesterday for me recording-wise. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I am still sick. Um, I’m better than I was yesterday, so hopefully that means tomorrow I’ll be even better. Um, but I– I’m– I wish we’ve– I kind of wish we recorded a few days ago when I, I sounded like Shrek because, um, then everyone would appreciate just how healthy I sound today. 

Christine: I, I think it’s okay, Em. I think we can all use our imaginations. 

Em: Mm-hmm. Well, uh, I drink because I thought ahead, and before we recorded, I got me a little smoothie. And by a little, I mean two big ones, so, um– 

Christine: Yes. Where, where, where were we, where were we sourcing these? The T– TS– TSC? 

Em: The– Yeah. Yeah! 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Well, I– So I always called it Tro Smo, but, uh, in Fredericksburg– 

Christine: [laughs] Tro Smo! 

Em: In Fredericksburg, my hometown smoothie place was Tropical Smoothie Cafe. 

Christine: Yeah, well, I didn’t know that existed until I met you and Eva. 

Em: Really? 

Christine: And apparently, there was one in t– five minutes from my house DoorDash. And you guys said, “Let’s get Tropical Smoothie Cafe.” And I said, “What the hell is that?” And it was– 

Em: Also nobody says the “Cafe” part. It’s “Tropical Smoothie,” just so you know. 

Christine: This– Well, obviously, this is all very new to me. A– My– 

Em: I know. I’m just– For, for the normies, when they hear you, that– so you can fit in. It’s Tro– 

Christine: Oh, understood. Okay, well n– Uh, when I was in high school, my first date ever was to a, uh, Smoothie King, so that was more our– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –more our, uh, speed, I think. Um, but I do– 

Em: You kn– A– 

Christine: Yeah, I apprec– I can appreciate a Tro Ca– What is it? Tro Smoc? 

Em: Tro Smo. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: It, it– Tropical Smoothie. 

Christine: Tro Smo? [laughs] 

Em: But I say Tro Smo just to be an asshole. 

Christine: Trop Smoc? Okay. 

Em: Um, A-Allison’s go-to, I think, was an Orange Julius. Never grew up with those. 

Christine: That sounds delicious, and it does feel very Allison. And it does feel very South Carolina. 

Em: Um, but no, I’ve always been a loyalist for Tropical Smoothie to this day. Even in LA, th– like the, the queen of smoothies, I have not found a smoothie I like as much as Tropical Smoothie. 

Christine: I don’t know. You did order that $78 Erewhon s– like hemp thing. 

Em: Yeah, but that was for basic bitch day. That was like for an event. 

Christine: Got i– That was a special occasion. 

Em: But on my, on my everyday– Especially in college, I lived above a Tropical Smoothie, and, uh– 

Christine: Until they evicted you for squatting. 

Em: W– For graduating, actually, but they d– 

Christine: [laughs] Same difference. 

Em: [laughs] I s– I was evicted. 

Christine: You showed back up, and they were like, “You’re out of here, please. You’ve already moved on.” 

Em: Anyway, if you, uh, go to CNU, the Tropical Smoothie on campus, I lived right above that. Um, and so– 

Christine: Aw, we can all pay homage to Em’s old– We can do a pilgrimage. 

Em: Yeah. And I would go downstairs– 

Christine: I finally figured out what a pilgrim is. 

Em: [laughs] Do you know what a pilgrimage is? 

Christine: N– Well, no, but I assume they’re related somehow. 

Em: Um, certainly in sound, yeah. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So, uh, anyway, I’m very excited. I got two of them, and– Get this. Despite living above one, despite going to a Tropical Smoothie it feels like every week since I was 14, this week I finally figured out what my smoothie is. Now that I live on the other side of the country away from them. 

Christine: Wait, wait. So you never had one there that you were like, “That’s it. That’s my go-to.” 

Em: I would always try to find the perfect one. 

Christine: Wow. ’Cause with every other place you order from, Em, you have like a go-to right away. 

Em: I have a thing. 

Christine: So I’m really surprised. What i– So you finally found it after all these many years, your white whale. What is it? 

Em: I finally got her! Except she’s my blue whale because this is the Blueberry Bliss. 

Christine: Oh! Interesting. 

Em: And it’s usually just blueberries, strawberries, bananas, but I s– 

Christine: Of course, you had to change it. Of course, you did. 

Em: Of course, are you kidding me? So I subbed out the banana for mango. So now it’s blueberry, strawberry, mango. Add extra strawberries. 

Christine: ‘Kay. 

Em: And it didn’t seem to change anything, uh, but I– in one of them, I added kiwi. That was also lovely. 

Christine: Oh, ’cause you have multiple. So that sounds g-good. That’s– 

Em: So double strawberries, blueberry, mango, kiwi. 

Christine: That sounds good. I w– I would prefer the banana too ’cause I feel like it makes a smoothie have a nice consistency. But if that’s not your jam, I think strawberry and blueberry a-and mango– That’s a good combo. 

Em: I think the f– the mangoes are frozen, so they kinda have banana consistency. 

Christine: Oh okay. That works, yeah. 

Em: Um, this one finally– I always have something to complain about with a smoothie, and this is the first one I don’t have anything to complain about. 

Christine: I’m really– I think we’re all– 

Em: So. 

Christine: I think we can pack up and go home. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. That’s why I drink. Why do you drink? 

Christine: I’m so happy for you. Um, I’m still here with my empty bottle of wine and my empty bottle of BodyArmor, and I’ve not replenished any of my beverages. I also found this. 

Em: Hm? 

Christine: This is a container of wood glue, so I have that. 

Em: Oh! What do you do with that? 

Christine: Uh, I think I was trying to– 

Em: You smell it, or–? 

Christine: Well, I was trying to repair my, my bird statue, and I think it worked. Yeah, it worked. 

Em: Oh, it’s beautiful. 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: [attempts to mimic bird sounds] Brr! Brr! Wait, that’s not a bird. Hang on. [mimics a crow calling] Caw! Caw! 

Christine: No. Remember, it’s a morning dove. It goes, [mimics morning dove cooing] “Ooh, ooh.” 

Em: That’s right. 

Christine: So why do I drink? I have so many reasons that like– Let me count the ways. Um, I will say there’s some elevated ghosty stuff happening in my hou-house. I know. It’s, it’s been a while. 

Em: [gasps] Christine Schiefer, you tell me right now. 

Christine: It’s been a while. So I’ve been on a journey, as always. Well actually, first of all, my new thing– I have a new hobby, and it’s, um– 

Em: Oh, for God fucking– Okay, let me scratch the other one off the list. 

Christine: That’s, that’s more important, and it’s about embroidery. And I’m having such a good time, and I bought a lot of supplies. [laughs] 

Em: Will you take a day to appreciate the last hobby, my friend? 

Christine: [laughs] No! And then, of course, I decided yesterday I should hand-make everyone’s Christmas gifts. Like with what fucking time and energy and livelihood? I don’t have five minutes to my name, and I’m like, “I’m going to hand-make everyone a stocking.” Like I’m out of my mind. 

Em: It’s part of the illness, my friend. 

Christine: It’s an illness, you’re right. It’s a fucking illness. 

Em: It’s called ADHD. It is quite an illness for the ages. 

Christine: It’s, it’s called, uh, a Jared Kushner obsession that apparently I’ve just like really skewed my brain from any other– 

Em: That is a side effect of the ADHD. 

Christine: –productive hobby. [laughs] Yeah. Uh, it’s just my brain goes in all the wrong directions, um. But, yeah, so I, I decided to start embroidering, but also, you know, I’m still Cricut-ing and cross-stitching and needlepointing and, um– Oh, I also thought maybe I should buy some of those silicone mats where you can do kind of like, um, stamp– Like where you, you draw a picture and then you stamp it on paper, and then– Anyway, uh– Anyway, I’m going to rewind all that ’cause that’s really not relevant right now, but, um, I– 

Em: Maybe tomorrow. 

Christine: [laughs] I drink, uh, because there’s some more ghosty stuff happening. I feel like that’s probably more what people are here to talk about. Um, and I am realizing that because I am doing so much of my own little, um, soul venturing in that, uh– My friend, Nicole– We were on her podcast a little while back, and she and I met up and like spent hours talking. And, um, she’s a psychic medium, and she helped me talk through a lot of stuff and a lot of weird dreams I’ve been having. Um, and ever since then I’m like, man, I just keep hearing more stuff and seeing more stuff. And it’s like things just seem more in f– 

Em: Like voices? 

Christine: Yeah, or not even voices like outwardly, just like kind of in my head. Like I can almost feel like– 

Em: [laughs] Oh fuck. 

Christine: I know. Or like I see things out of the corner of my eye a lot more often now. And, um, it’s gotten to the point where the other night, I actually had Blaise, for the first time, I think, in this house, get up and get the baseball bat from under the bed ’cause– 

Em: Oh shit. What were you hearing? 

Christine: Just somebody walking up and down the stairs, and I was like, “There is somebody on the stairs,” which– I don’t know if anyone recalls, but when I moved in here, the first time I went to LA, uh, to visit you during COVID or like, you know, during one of the breaks where we thought we were all safe [laughs]. Uh, and I flew over for a visit, and Blaise called me, like hysterical basically, in the middle of the night– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and said there’s, “Someone in the house.” Well, anyway, this is what happened the other night. And I’m laying there, and I swear to God, and I’m like, “Please, I’m going to lift my head. Please tell me that one of the cats is not in here.” Of course, all three of them are in the bed, and Moonshine is up with his like hackles raised. 

Em: Oh fuck. 

Christine: And he’s look– I, I was like, “This is not happening right now.” So I was thoroughly convinced there was an actual person. Like I went through the doorbell cameras. I was trying to figure out if somebody got in. So I sent Blaise out. 

Em: Was Blaise, by the way– When you were hearing the sounds, was he saying, “This is just what I hear all the fucking time when you’re gone”? 

Christine: No, he was just out of, of– It was like middle of the night, so he was dead asleep. 

Em: Oh okay. 

Christine: Um, so he didn’t hear it, so I woke him up to go look. And then, um, there was nothing there, and then, of course, like while he was still awake, I heard nothing. And then, you know, half an hour later, I’m trying to fall asleep, and I’m like, “There it is again.” And so I don’t know. Maybe it was like, oh, I live in an old ass house, and it’s getting cold? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: You know, all the usual like haunted house stuff you tell yourself like, “Oh, well, it’s just, uh, you know.” But I’m telling you, man. I don’t know. There’s something a little, uh, more lively in this house the last few months. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Um, and no more printer action, but I did unplug it, so that could be part of the, part of that. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, no more things have, as far as I know, gone missing, but my house is such a mess that I probably wouldn’t notice if they did. 

Em: The fact that you don’t have a security cam in every room at this point with sound at all times and like– 

Christine: [sighs] Yeah. 

Em: I would– The way that I would have cameras– 

Christine: Do you think I should make like a nerve center? 

Em: Yes! 

Christine: So I can monitor them? 

Em: It’s called your studio, yes. 

Christine: Oh okay. I was like, “Where would I even–?” That’s the problem is like since I live here, I’m like what, what would I even be looking at? Like, I guess I could sit up here and– 

Em: How about you just have a, a live wire always sent over to me, and I’ll just be your nerve center. 

Christine: Oh, you can just feed– I’d just feed it to you, okay. 

Em: And I’ll just text you in the middle of the night and go, “Not to freak you out, but Leona’s head spun around.” 

Christine: E– You wouldn’t– [laughs] “I’ve got it handled. Go back to bed.” 

Em: “The chairs are stacking themselves. Wake up.” Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. “Yeah, don’t worry. I’ll tell them to put them back by morning.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, so, you know, it’s just a weird time, and I think– 

Em: Do you feel anything? Like you’re being watched more, or is that just paranoia maybe? 

Christine: It’s not like I feel like I’m being watched, honestly, and it never feels negative, so that’s good. Um, I’ve been very intentional about being like, “This is my space. Don’t come near me, you know, in my own circle.” Not like in a fearful way but just in a very like boundary setting way. So I feel fine. Like I’m not worried. Leona hasn’t seen anything or said anything weird, um. 

Em: She hasn’t spoken backwards yet? 

Christine: No– Well, you know what? Maybe she has. ’Cause sometimes she makes a lot of sounds, and we’re like, “What are you even saying?” And maybe if we played it backwards, we’d finally find the meaning of life. But I talked to Nicole, and Nicole went to Leona’s birthday party, and, um, she– Oh, by the way, Nicole’s podcast is called A Psychic’s Story. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And it’s so good because I’ve like binged the whole thing. Every week, she interviews like a different psychic medium or healer or someone in the space, and they talk– 

Em: And sh– And she’s lovely. 

Christine: And she’s lovely, yes. And she– The show itself was g– is great too because you can like hear different people’s, um, like processes and how it works in their own brain. So you hear like dozens of different psychic mediums talk about like their own method and their– how– what it’s like for them. And so it’s really a helpful tool. Um, but anyway, so I met w– She came to Leona’s birthday party, and when we met up a few weeks later, she was like, “Oh, Leona is a character.” And I was like, “I know, but I’m always surprised she doesn’t like say anything about, you know, like–“ I mean, and I don’t provoke her or anything, but she never really seems to like have an interest in– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –you know, whatever, any– anything kind of metaphysical. And then she goes, “Oh, the way I see it for her is that she has almost blinders on right now,” like a horse where it’s like let’s just like go forward. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And she’s like, “But don’t worry. They’ll come down within the next couple years, and she’ll start talking.” And I was like, “Aah!” So I don’t know. We’ll see what happens. But, um– 

Em: It makes sense that she would need blinders on just to literally physically grow and then– 

Christine: Just to go through, right? That’s what I thought too. I was like that actually makes so much sense. We probably all have that, you know, ’cause you’re like, “I just need to get through life right now.” 

Em: Well, I think she’s also brand new to Earth, so I think she’s– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: –probably just got to w– dip her toe in. 

Christine: She’s gotta figure this shit out. She’s climbing Wobbly Mountain. She doesn’t have time for all this other nonsense. 

Em: She’s–“If I take my blinders off, I’m gonna, I’m gonna start thinking about those other lives that are behind me.” 

Christine: “Oh man. I’m gonna miss my other mommy.” 

Em: Yeah, exactly. 

Christine: That’s, that’s rough. I don’t want that. Um, anyway, so that’s why I drink, but, uh, you know, I still don’t have a beverage aside from my wood glue, so I think I’m just gonna be, um– 

Em: Huffing? 

Christine: –raw dogging it. Sorry, I hate when people say that more than anything in the world. And then it becomes an intrusive thought, and I can’t stop from saying it. 

Em: One of Christine’s favorite things to do is literally bully me out of saying a phrase– 

Christine: Ex– 

Em: –and then she starts saying it. 

Christine: Immediate– There was– There’s literally a scene in our live show where Em says something to a ghost, and I get really upset. I’m like, “How could you say that?” And then literally five minutes later, I just start repeating the exact same thing. 

Em: But like god forbid I ever get upset with you to say, “No, no, no, no, no. We gotta be–“ 

Christine: I can’t believe you don’t. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: If– Mo-most people do. You’re the only one, I think, who gives me the leeway, whereas everyone else would go, “Why the fuck would you tell me not to say that?” And honestly, I think that I– you– I let– You let me do it, and so I just can’t stop myself ’cause I know you’ll let me. [laughs] 

Em: I just know you’re not gonna change your ways at this point, so it’s not worth the energy to complain about it, so, uh– 

Christine: [laughs] When I heard myself just repeating, I was like, “How could you say that, Em?” And I’m like holding my wine glass in the, in the video clip, and then five minutes later, I’m like, “Hey, guess what? I’m gonna say the exact same thing and see what happens.” 

Em: Even with raw dog. You hated raw dog, and now look who’s saying it. 

Christine: It’s like, it’s like it just starts to worm its way into my head. 

Em: Vomitus? I created vomitus. Let’s be clear. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: And then– And you hated it, and now you say it. I’m telling you, I’m just a– 

Christine: No, that one– I think that one immediately struck a chord with me where I said that word has been missing from my vocabulary. 

Em: Oh! Oh, interesting. 

Christine: Vomitus was like a, was like a, a immediate one-hit wonder. Like I was delighted about that. I think the rest– 

Em: Thank you. Every now and then I’ve got one of those. 

Christine: Yeah, the rest were, uh, just ones that I’ve unfortunately twisted and warped in my own mind, uh, as like a coping mechanism, I think. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I just spit them back out at you just to maybe make, make you suffer along with me? I don’t know why I do it, but– 

Em: Doesn’t work. I just, I just– 

Christine: “Doesn’t work.” [laughs] 

Em: I just think, “Okay, you’re on board now, so– 

Christine: “Doesn’t work. She thinks it’s funny.” 

Em: –I can stop getting yelled at now. 

Christine: “We can say “raw dogging it” again.” 

Em: Uh, well, I’m sorry you’re raw dogging it, although you do have that vape stick, I’m sure, ’cause you go nowhere without it. 

Christine: Where? As I, as I lift all my blankets looking for it ’cause it rolled away. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: What do you mean? 

Em: I feel like you and that vape stick have like a Chef Boyardee relationship where it’s just gonna roll down the hill into your house if ever lose it again. 

Christine: [laughs] Wait! Wait, do you know what it did? This exact one! Not this one because this is a new one. At the Shania Twain concert with you and Eva– 

Em: Oh yeah! 

Christine: – for Eva’s engagement, this exact brand rolled from our seats down the entire auditorium. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And poor Eva’s friend had to go, uh– Ellen had to go – I think it was Ellen – had to go on the floor and start just like digging for it under all the like nasty spilled like sugary cocktails. And it rolled all the way to the bottom. And guess how nice I am? I gave it to Eva afterwards ’cause she said she really liked it. During the show, I was like letting everybody try it, and Eva said she really liked it. So after the show, I was like, “Here, I got this you.” She’s like, “Is this the one that rolled through everybody’s beverages to the bottom of the stage at the Shania Twain concert on like a Wednesday?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Thank you so much, Christine.” And I said, “You’re welcome.” 

Em: [laughs] You know Ellen– 

Christine: So. 

Em: Ellen was probably like, “I would have just bought Eva another one.” Like– 

Christine: Honestly, Ellen was probably like, “I also have a two-year-old at home, so this is really familiar for me t-to crawl around on a sticky floor.” 

Em: So gross. 

Christine: “Uh, and that I become the toddler when I’m away from my toddler. I become the toddler.” So, um, anyway. 

Em: I’ve said this– 

Christine: It is a Chef Boyardee situation. 

Em: I’ve said this before. Christine and Leona are the same person on FaceTime– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –because they will both drop the phone. They will both just walk away. They’ll both forget that they were talking to me. They’ll both just turn the phone off. 

Christine: They’ll both start drinking beverages and spill them like into the camera. Yeah, turn the phone off. Yeah. It’s– 

Em: At one point, we were, uh, h– calling Leona on FaceTime, and I was like, “Christine, it’s like watching yourself Face–“ It’s crazy. 

Christine: I was amazed ’cause I had never thought of it. You and I were in the parking lot or somewhere, and we FaceTimed Leona. And I was watching her, going, “Oh, Em. Get a load of this girl.” And Em is like, “This is you. Like you don’t see it?” 

Em: This is every, this is every work call. This is– [laughs] 

Christine: Like literally. I know, right? Em’s like, “I have a meeting with you at least three times a week like this.” Leona literally looks at the camera, and she’s like kind of staring at it really way too close, so we can see all the crusty like things on her face ’cause she’s a boxcar child. And she goes, “I need to set the phone down because I have to do some hula hooping.” And we were like, “Okay.” And she set the phone down and like s– got– which is not a hula hoop – this like hoop she has and just puts it around shoulders and starts doing this [leans side to side as if hula hooping]. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And it doesn’t even like fit. And I was like, “This does feel like what I do on a FaceTime.” 

Em: She– Remember when she said “look at my pants” and then just showed us her pants. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And I never saw her face again. 

Christine: [laughs] “Look at my pants.” And then she just dropped the phone and said, “I have to go.” And we were like, “Well, now we’re just looking at the floor.” 

Em: I will– Uh, the last time sh– you– She put me on the floor and went, “Funcle Em, you’re on the floor. Bye!” And then just– [laughs] Okay. 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] And then just Blaise awkwardly picked it up and was like, “Um–“ 

Em: I went, “Hi Blaise. You can hang up the phone now.” [laughs] 

Christine: “Bye.” Yeah, he’s like, “I don’t know. She– I lost her. She’s somewhere.” Um, anyway. Good times. 

Em: Anyway, I love that little baby. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Oh! I love that little baby. 

Christine: I miss my baby. Even though she’s– 

Em: You tell her, “Hi.” She’ll know what it means. 

Christine: [laughs] I don’t know, I don’t know. Okay, I’ll– I will. 

Em: I have a– By the way, you’ve had enough time now that I can yell at you. 

Christine: Okay. You can always yell at me. 

Em: Because– You know what today is? Episode 411. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: And you know what the 411 is? 

Christine: What’s the 411? 

Em: That this is our Christmas episode. 

Christine: [singing] ♪ Christmas time is here ♪ 

Em: There you go. 

Christine: [speaking] Look, I’m Frosty the Snowman with a corncob pipe. [holds vape stick between lips] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [singing] ♪ Ash-so fwah-so-fwah. ♪♪ [speaking] This is like as the holidays progress I just slowly start losing it, my sanity, my grasp–z 

Em: [laughs] You just start morphing into a snowman. 

Christine: Right. [laughs] My grasp on reality. I become Tim Allen or Jude Law or whoever was in that movie. 

Em: You just become like the Heat Miser or whatever. 

Christine: Wasn’t one of them a snowman at one point? Or was that also– 

Em: Tim Allen was, uh, certainly Santa in at least ten movies. 

Christine: What’s the difference between Woody Allen and Tim Allen? Hold on. 

Em: One of them married their stepdaughter. 

Christine: Oh, that’s a problem, isn’t it? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, yeah. 

Em: Wait, not Woody Allen. No, sorry. Scratch that. [laughs] Allegedly! No, it’s not. It’s not even Woody Allen. It’s Woody Allen, right? 

Christine: Yeah, it’s Woody Allen. 

Em: Oh, now I’m like overthinking it. Woody Allen. 

Christine: He’s the Tenenbaum guy. 

Em: [mumbling] Woody Allen stepdaughter. Yep, okay, I was right. Okay. For a second, I was thinking of the guy from Hunger Games. 

Christine: Did you know one time I had a nightmare– Wait, who? That guy? Josh Hutcherson? 

Em: No, the guy who played their, their mentor. 

Christine: Oh, him. His name’s also Woody Allen, I think, though. 

Em: [laughs] Are you serious? You’re not serious. 

Christine: No, but I’m– It’s Woody Guthrie. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: No, it’s Woody Harrelson. 

Em: Woody Harrelson! That’s– I always mix them up, and I’m always nervous that I’m accusing the wrong person or something. 

Christine: It’s Woody von Andy from Toy Story. 

Em: [laughs] What the fuck? 

Christine: Um. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] You’re fucking not on this planet Earth anymore, Christine. 

Christine: I w– I– 

Em: You took too big of a hit of that wood glue. 

Christine: I wish I did. I wish I had taken any of a hit. Except I’m too scared to do it on a camera ’cause I feel like maybe we’ll get in trouble. I don’t know. 

Em: Tim Allen is Home Improvement, and he played Santa like 20,000 times. 

Christine: Uh, he’s such a piece of shit. I, one time, had a dream that I was on The Tim Allen Show, and everyone always says, “Home Improvement.” And I go, “No, no, no. The dream was about a show called The Tim Allen Show.” And I walked out on the stage, and you know when you can’t walk ’cause you’re like in a dream? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And I was trying to walk upstage, and then he said, “Now, everybody. Let’s laugh at her.” And the whole audience laughed at me. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] I was like 11 when I had this dream. And to this day, and to this day, I like think about it every time I think about Home Improvement. ’Cause for years I would say, “I had this dream about The Tim Allen Show, and everyone said, “Oh, Home Improvement.” I said, “How many fucking times do I have to tell you it wasn’t Home Improvement?” 

Em: Now, that’s comedy gold. Now, that’s comedy gold. 

Christine: [laughs] It wasn’t funny. It was very sad. 

[laughs] 

Em: No, that’s the funniest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. Oh no. And you know, what a, what a manifestation or a, uh, a prediction because no one knew he was shit yet. 

Christine: [laughs] Foreshadowing. I know, right? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And he was such a, he was such a dick in my 11-year-old subconscious I knew he was a dick. 

Em: “Let’s laugh at her.” Oh, he– You know who he was? He– Uh, because this is– My favorite scene from Home Improvement was, um– He was Buzz Lightyear, and my favorite scene from Home Improvement is when it’s him and his son, I think Randy, who voiced Simba. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: And they’re debating over who’s the better Disney character, Buzz or, or Simba. 

Christine: Yeah, you did tell me about that. I thought that was pretty cle–clever. 

Em: Pretty clever. 

Christine: Like a little in joke, a little Easter egg. 

Em: Yeah. Uh, where were we? Wow. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Oh, because it’s Christmas time– 

Christine: Of– Of– [cuts off, silence] 

Em: Oh, she finally muted herself. 

Christine: Sorry, I muted myself. [laughs] 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: I said “off the planet” is where we were. 

Em: Uh, anyway, since it’s Christmas, I was going to offer you to do one final of the year MGM lion sing-along moment. 

Christine: [singing] ♪ Christmas time is here / Hah-sa-fwah sa-fwah / Hah-sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah / sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah ♪ 

Em: That’s beautiful. 

Christine: ♪ Sleigh bells in the air / Music everywhere ♪ [pause] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: ♪ Hah-sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah / sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah ♪♪ 

Em: This is where I tricked you, and that was your application for the institution. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Did I make it? Did I make the cut? 

[laughs] 

Christine: My application for the institution. It sounds like some X-Men thing, but it’s just really I’m going away for a while to get better, [laughs] to get medicated. 

Em: [laughs] You’re going a-away to the fresh air where there’s– 

Christine: [laughs] I need to go to Waverly Hills for a while and get some, uh, sit on a chair and like view some ad– view some mountains and take a breath. 

Em: I’m not saying anything bad’s gonna happen to you. I am saying electroshock therapy’s available there. 

Christine: You know what? I think it’s about time we finally opened up the floor for that as an option. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

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Em: Well, Merry Christmas to everybody. And because of that, we have a Christmas story for you. 

Christine: [laughs] “That was your application to the institution.” You know how people make like home tapes for Survivor? That was like my home tape for the institution. 

Em: That was your audition reel for, for a sanatorium. 

Christine: Remember how you found a porno on your orange cassette tape about The Rugrats all grown up? I feel like I need to put– 

Em: That was said in confidence! No. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] No, it was not. It was said– 

Em: If by in confidence, I mean to all of our Patreon people. 

Christine: No, you said that in the intro, I thought. Oh! Oh shit! No, you’re right. I’m sorry you’re right. Oh fuck. That was Patreon. I’m sorry. That is a spoiler for patrons only, and that’s private information, everyone. So you better– If you heard that, you have to become a patron now. It’s the law ’cause you heard a secret thing. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, yeah. So I’m gonna put that on an orange VHS tape and hide it somewhere. 

Em: Thank you. Uh, I– Good luck. I hope you make it, um– [laughs] 

Christine: Thank you. Thank you. 

Em: –into the institution. 

Christine: Maybe they’ll give me a scholarship. 

Em: I think you will be going for free ’cause I’m paying for it, so– 

Christine: A merit, a merit-based scholarsh– Oh, thank you. 

Em: It’s the least I can do. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: It’s also the last I could do. 

Christine: It’s also the last frontier. [laughs] 

Em’s Story – Hans Trapp

Em: Um, also sidebar. Jack, please. I’m so sorry. Please mute every single time I’m blowing my nose obviously.

Christine: I would hope that that’s a given, but, yes, thank you, Jack. ’Cause sometimes we do inquire about really strange, uh, sounds. 

Em: Just please cut to Christine’s face every time. It’s so disgusting. I’m so sorry. Okay. Here is your Christmas story, and maybe you can fill me in on this if you know about it at all. 

Christine: Oh gosh. Okay. 

Em: It is, uhh– It’s more French than German, but his name is Hans Trapp. So you tell me if, uh, I’m supposed to believe that’s French and not German. 

Christine: Like the von Trapps? 

Em: Mm, yes. Sound-wise. Yes. 

Christine: But no, not them. 

Em: Not, not the von Trapps. 

Christine: Then no, but Hans is absolutely a German name. 

Em: Would you have been able to teach me about the von Trapps? 

Christine: No, ’cause I was very actively forbidden from watching The Sound of Music. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Okay. Uh, well, here’s the story of Hans Trapp who is a Christmas character. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Um, he has a few other names. I think Hans Trott is one of them. Hans Nìckel is one of them. Rübbels– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –is apparently one of them. Um, but Hans Trapp was the main name. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Here is a poem about him. “Look, there’s Hans Trapp / He’s got a nice pointed hood / And a beard as white as a white horse.” Okay. 

Christine: [laughs] That’s a good job, Leona. Wow. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “It’s as a white as a white horse.” Wow, that’s really good. 

Em: Uh, imagine if it was “it’s as white as a blue horse.” Wow. 

Christine: Wow. Now, that actually means something, I think. That must be a metaphor. 

Em: “He comes from the starry sky / He brings a rod to the children” 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: “Who neither sing nor pray.” 

Christine: He brings a ro– Oh. Oh my god. 

Em: Doesn’t it sound German now? 

Christine: Well, yeah, surely does. 

Em: “Look, Hans Trapp, we are so small / We are wise and we follow the house / You don’t need to come with your rod / For we know how to sing and pray.” 

Christine: Jesus. Why like– Why– Like it’s sick that they do t– that they have so many characters that I haven’t even heard of half of them. 

Em: Yeah, there’s just– 

Christine: Just here to punish children. 

Em: –too many children fairy tale creatures who are there to beat you if you’re bad. 

Christine: Like they all have weapons. 

Em: [laughs] Sure do. 

Christine: Like why? 

Em: [sighs] Yeah. Uh– Oh, that was the end of the poem. Great. Okay. 

Christine: That– Honestly, [applauds] good work. 

Em: [laughs] Thank you. 

Christine: Sorry we didn’t clap. We thought it was still going. 

Em: Uh, I mean, I could probably just whip out another verse right now. It would be a– 

Christine: You could probably– 

Em: It’d be about beating children– 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: –if you’d like me to say that out loud. 

Christine: Throw like a different colored horse in there, and I’d believe you. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] The green horse is angry ’cause you didn’t sing or pray. 

Christine: But it’s still green just like his hat. 

Em: Just like his very white hat. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, so. Okay, he is popular in French regions of– Is it Alsace [pronounced “all-say-s”]? Alsace [pronounced “all-sass”]? Alsace [pronounced “all-sus”]? How do you say it? Help me. 

Christine: Uh, I think it’s Alsace [pronounced “all-sahs”]. 

Em: Alsace [pronounced “all-sahs”]. 

Christine: Right? The Alsace region? 

Em: I, I know I should have looked it up. 

Christine: Sometimes, sometimes I know how– 

Em: It’s bolded because I was supposed to look it up. 

Christine: Sometimes I know how my mom says it, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a thing that like how everybody else says it. 

Em: Right. Haphazardly [pronounced “half-haz-are-dly”]. 

Christine: Exactly! Exactly. I would say Alsace [pronounced “all-sahs”] is how I would say it. 

Em: Okay. Well, he’s popular in that region. Um, if somebody who’s, um, an avid listener, if you could please comment below for us on whether or not I’ve covered Père Fouettard. Can you let me know? Because if not, he’ll be my Christmas story next year, but I swear I wrote about him. I looked– Or I, I talked about him. I looked it up in our episode list, and I couldn’t find him. 

Christine: I’ve never heard of that, so I don’t think you have. 

Em: Okay, great. Well, then now we know what’s going to happen in 2025, um– 

Christine: Great. I mean, I don’t have any clue ’cause those words mean nothing to me. It sounds like a blast. 

Em: Well, uh, so apparently– 

Christine: Is this– Is Alsace where Strasbourg is? 

Em: I can’t even say it. How would I know that? 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. Is it the German region of Fra-France? 

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Okay, okay. ’Cause that’s where like Strasbourg is, and it’s like very cool because you go to– It’s a French town, but then everything looks very German. It’s like a very trippy thing– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: –’cause people will speak both French and German, and it’s like, “Where am I?” It’s in– 

Em: Oh my god. That’s like Quebec – French and English. 

Christine: Yeah, yes! It’s similar vibes, I think. Yeah. 

Em: Or Montreal. Or well, I guess Quebec too. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, so, yes. It’s popular in– This story of Hans Trapp is popular in Alsace [pronounced “all-sass”]– Alsace [pronounced “all-sahs”]? “–sahs” or “sass”? 

Christine: Now I don’t know. 

Em: I’m in trouble. 

Christine: See, that’s what I’m saying. I think it’s– I think I would say Alsace [pronounced “all-sahs”], but I don’t know if like in English you say, A– you know. I don’t know. 

Em: Okay. In that area of French– in France. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Oh my god. Oh my god. Save me. [laughs] He’s popular in that region. Um, and Père Fouettard is also popular in that area who I will cover next year. Great. 

Christine: If– I can’t believe you would remember that. I know you will, which is the craziest part. 

Em: Someone will DM me. Please DM me. Remind me in a year. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Okay. Hans Trapp is loosely based on an actual person, fun fact. Um, but it’s not like, uh, Santa Claus and Saint Nicholas or whatever. It’s, uh, it’s a random German knight. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: And he’s loosely, loosely, loosely based off this guy. I guess Santa’s also loosely, loosely based off of anyway. 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: But there’s a German knight from the 1400s. His name is Hans Von Trotha, and he had two castles. But– By the way, I’m totally bastardizing this story. It’s very long. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, I looked up the history of it. It would have bored everybody to tears unless you’re weirdly into this region of 1400s history. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, so just to make it as short as I can, Hans Von Trotha– He had two castles, but one of them led to a rivalry with a monastery because they believed they were the rightful owners. As someone who read the history of this, uh, technically, it did belong to the monastery, but he was gifted it by a previous owner. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And so he thought that that kind of trumped the– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –you know, them being able to move in. So he didn’t care that they were the rightful owners, and he refused to move out. And during this dispute, the monastery would not back down, so to assert dominance, uh, or to say like, “Fuck you. I live here,” Hans decided that he was going to build a dam that would keep all of the water from going into that abbey’s village. 

Christine: Build a dam to keep all the water from going– Oh, so like you don’t have access to water basically. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Okay, got it. 

Em: He like took away their water, which is like the one thing that people have in the 1400s. 

Christine: That’s– Wow. That’s really fucking cruel. 

Em: He was like, “Well, you don’t live here, and also you have no water now. So shut up.” 

Christine: “And now you’re gonna die of thirst.” Very nice. 

Em: Yeah. So then I don’t know if like he was ordered to take it down, or if enough people complained so he took it down, or if this was part of his little evil plan, eventually, he then takes it down after the dam has caught enough water. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And so then when he takes down the dam, all the water comes crashing back into the town, and he floods the town and like really ruins their situation. 

Christine: Whoa. And we don’t know if that was intentional or not? 

Em: Different stories told me different things. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, but it sounds like he took it down as part of his evil plan, I f– 

Christine: Oh, what a dick. 

Em: But then I saw another thing where like a, a higher-up supervisor of the castle or a castle nearby told him to take it down. So, um– 

Christine: It’s, it’s like, “Oh, yeah? I’ll give you, I’ll give you water. You want water? I’ll give you water.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And then he drowns the town. That’s so fucked up. 

Em: Yeah. I don’t know what the actual story is, but it seems like he was happy to flood them, you know what I mean? 

Christine: Cool. Yeah. [laughs] You know what? I do know what you mean. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. At some point– 

Christine: We’ve all been there. [laughs] 

Em: We’ve all been there. I’ve always wanted to flood a town just to– 

Christine: Yeah, [laughs] it just happens. 

Em: At least for the, the drama, you know? 

Christine: Yeah, it just happens sometimes. 

Em: At some point, the emperor gets involved. 

Christine: Oh boy. 

Em: And, uh, even he can’t stop Hans. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: I guess this guy is such a force to be reckoned with. 

Christine: Unstoppable Hans. 

Em: That he is just tormenting this monastery who– They were just like, “Can you please just let us move into your house because it’s our house actually?” Um, and he’s just tormenting them. The emperor can’t do anything about it, so eventually it goes all the way to the top. And the pope has to get involved. 

Christine: I was like who’s above the emperor? Oh, right. I guess the pope. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah, there’s very few people after the emperor. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: So the pope gets involved. The pope asks Hans to– which I– By the way, apparently this pope is called Pope Innocent VIII. 

Christine: Okay, my brother and I just had a thing where we sat in a hotel room and we debated our favorite pope names ’cause some of them are so– 

Em: What? 

Christine: Yeah. Well, we went to Catholic school, so– They have some weird fucking names. Like there’s Pope Urban. There’s Pope Innocent. There’s Pope Pius. Um, there’s Pope, uh, uh, Dionysius – That was one of my favorites where I was like, “Isn’t that the po–“ 

Em: That’s nice. 

Christine: “Isn’t that the goddess of like wine and revelry and–“ But anyway, um, there’s some re– Like pope names get really fucking weird. Um, and there– A lot of them are just like words where you’re like– 

Em: You just get to pick any fucking word? 

Christine: It’s some– There’s some weird system, but yeah, I think you do get a say in what your name is. 

Em: What would your name be? 

Christine: Oh! Um, actually, you know what? He asked me that, and I, I had an answer. I can’t quite remember. But there were some good ones like, um, like Zephyrinus. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Like some very like, uh, you know, Greek god sounding names, um. 

Em: That’s nice. 

Christine: Yeah. Do, uh, do you have one? [laughs] What’s your pope name? This is a very– 

Em: Pope, Pope Sleepy. I don’t know. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Like a dwarf, I don’t know. I would just pick a– Pope Hungry, I guess? 

Christine: Pope Hungry? Yeah, yeah. You’d probably be the first. 

Em: ’Cause then they’d be like, “Oh, hungry for the Lord?” And it’s like, “Yeah–“ 

Christine: Hungry for the Lord? Hell, yeah. 

Em: That’s right. 

Christine: You’ll be eating your Snack Pack pudding like, “Yep, that’s right. Hungry for the Lord. Nothing else.” 

Em: [laughs] Me with a Fruit Roll-Up falling out of my mouth. Yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] Uh, yeah, so there’s some weird ones, but yeah, Pope– I was gonna ask you if it was one of the weird names ’cause there’s like, uh, Urban and Innocent. 

Em: Well, this is more interesting to me is that there was a Pope Innocent, and then this is Pope Innocent VIII so like– 

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah. It’s a very common one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: I like that they just swipe each other’s names from each other. 

Christine: They do, and then there’s like Clement and Urban XI. And you’re like, “Jesus Christ. Come up with something original, like um, Hungry, you know?” 

Em: I feel like it should be like a, like a jersey that gets retired. It’s like once the name like– 

Christine: Oh yeah. 

Em: Like let everybody at least be able to remember who each– It– ’Cause now it just feels like you’re like King Edward XVII or whatever like– 

Christine: I mean, I think that’s probably what they’re going for, you now, like a legacy type thing. 

Em: Gross. 

Christine: I know. Well, I don’t know what you expected. Some really progressive politics coming from the, the Vatican, but– 

Em: The pope [laughs]. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Well, okay. So this guy, remember, he floods the town. He’s pissing everyone off. The emperor can’t help him. 

Christine: I remember. 

Em: So Pope Innocent VIII, uh, says, “Listen–“ 

Christine: Which, by the way, is always to me like, “Wow, thou doth protest too much.” Like, “Innoc– I’m innocent!” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “That’s my name. Uh, I didn’t do anything, obviously!” 

Em: [laughs] That’s a great point. 

Christine: “Check the license. Check the birth certificate. Obviously I had nothing to do with this. Hands are clean.” 

Em: It’s like, “Whatever you h– feel about the church– Wasn’t me.” 

Christine: Yeah. What– “Obviously, there’s no way it could’ve been ’cause God divinely gave me–“ 

Em: He backs into a stereo that pl– that plays Shaggy’s “It Wasn’t Me.” 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: Uh, so, uh, the pope asks Hans to a– literally come to Rome to visit him because he’s it– he’s acting up that bad that he has to face-to-face defend his loyalty to the church. 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: To the pope. Which– What a bar story of like the pope literally told me I have to come see him. 

Christine: He summoned me. Ugh! 

Em: He asked me to like really go prove my loyalty and hang out and have dinner with him. Ugh! 

Christine: He’s– God! He like always wants my attention and wants me to prove my loyalty. Ugh. 

Em: You know how the pope is, am I right? 

Christine: He’s so clingy that guy. 

Em: Uh, and then Hans refuses to go be with him and writes him a letter instead, accusing– 

Christine: Such a power move. 

Em: –accusing the church of being incredibly immoral. 

Christine: Oh, that feels like a low blow. I mean, it’s true absolutely, but it feels– Wow. 

Em: Well, so in, in one way, it’s like, uh– Like first of all, what a power, what a power move that you’re gonna– First of all, of all– Pope Innocent, as you just said? 

Christine: Of ev– Yep. 

Em: Of all of them? Uh, he’s gonna send a letter about how immoral the church is? But then, talk about here’s your answer on whether or not I’m loyal to the church. 

Christine: Yeah, good point. 

Em: Here’s, here’s a letter about how I’m not. And, um– 

Christine: Here’s a letter about how you suck. Like whoa! [laughs] 

Em: But also at some point, I think he lost the plot because if he really wanted to keep his house, the last thing you should do is now go give a middle finger to the pope. 

Christine: Good point. 

Em: Now you’ve got an enemy. 

Christine: Now he’s gonna get mad. 

Em: It’s one thing to be like an arrogant asshole and like no one can tame you, but like now you’re just gonna go piss off anyone who can make any rule they want? Like– 

Christine: I was gonna say especially someone with power who can just say, “Never mind. It’s mine now.” 

Em: Yeah, so that’s what happened. The pope excommunicated him. 

Christine: Well, [laughs]. 

Em: And, and then he probably went to the bar and played victim. He went, “Can you believe what they did?” 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: He was also given an imperial ban of any legal rights he had to any of his belongings. 

Christine: Kick ass. 

Em: So he literally just left. 

Christine: They just said, “You’re banned from all your stuff.” [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] “Just go away. Just literally leave the property.” 

Christine: I would be so scared every day living in that time period. I’d be like, “I– Somebody’s just gonna quarter me or take all my belongings or apply, apply me to the–“ 

Christine: Like all they had was water, and it was probably full of like rat poop or something. Like it was– 

Christine: Eugh! And the pope’s just gonna summon me, and it’s just gonna be a bad day, any day, every day. 

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Em: If I ever had to time travel to that era, to the medieval times, I would just– 

Christine: Never. 

Em: It’s like when you go on a– Like as I just did, you’re about to go on a plane for the holidays, you know you’re gonna get sick. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: It’s like if I’m gonna time travel to the medieval era, I know I’m gonna die. And– 

Christine: I’m gonna be the pope. If you let– If you bring– send me back there, you let me be the pope or something, so I can at least have a little bit of sway. 

Em: Between this and like the Salem witch trial era like I’m– 

Christine: We’d be fucked. 

Em: I’m f– That’s a, that’s a flyover state for me on the time machine. I’m not even touching that. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We’re in trouble. 

Em: [sighs] Oy. So at the– Oh, emperor, bluh-buh-buh-buh. 

Christine: [laughs] “Flyover state in the time machine.” 

Em: You know what I mean. 

Christine: That’s so beautiful. 

Em: You know what I mean. 

Christine: Beautifully put. 

Em: It’s like, “Oh, let’s change the time circuits. We’re not going there.” 

Christine: It’s like we all know. We all know this is just the plains– We’re just gonna wave down and move– keep moving. 

Em: Like– It’s like when you stop to– You’ll stop to get gas for the time machine, but like you’re looking over your shoulder the whole time like, “How quick can I get out?” 

Christine: A-and it’s definitely not New Jersey where they make you hire– pay some– tip somebody to fill you up. 

Em: No, and also if I’m filling my time machine with gas in 1692, I am getting burned at the stake, for sure. That is– 

Christine: Oh, big time. Big time. 

Em: You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: At least the medieval people might stay away from me. They might think I am Jesus or something. 

Christine: Yeah, you probably look like a Biblical monster or something. 

Em: Anyway, here we go. Uh, so the pope excommunicated him, and he lost all his belongings, which I love to think that the monastery then moved in and just started playing with all of his shit as a “fuck you.” 

Christine: They just got his like stuff, yeah. 

Em: It’s like they– “We all– We have his record player now. Ha-ha!” 

Christine: “Ooh, look! His pipe!” 

Em: [laughs] So, um, he ends up, uh, leaving the region. And after he died, he became associated with this defiant, bloodthirsty, power-hungry, violent boogeyman who wants to terrorize people, especially Christian people. 

Christine: Wow. Wow. Okay, so he became enemy number one and then like was fictionalized almost into this like enemy character. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Bad guy. 

Em: Merry Christmas. 

Christine: A villain. Okay. 

Em: Some. versions say this is where his name was changed to Hans Trapp. ’Cause remember, it was Hans Von Trotha. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, and Trapp, apparently, is short for “trappen,” which, maybe you know, maybe you can confirm, but apparently it means “walking loudly to scare off the spirits.” 

Christine: “Trappen.” Yeah, “Treppe” means stairs or steps, so that makes sense. 

Em: Okay, so walking, maybe stepping. I don’t know. It– I– 

Christine: I wouldn’t a– 

Em: Multiple, multiple sources said specifically “walking loudly to scare off spirits.” And I was like that can’t be summed up in one word. 

Christine: That’s– Uh, well, it feels very German that they would have a word for that, but you know it’d probably be like 40 letters long, um. 

Em: Right. [laughs] 

Christine: But I think, I think it– Nowadays, I think it would probably mean more like just steps or treading. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But I think back then it probably had some connotation like that, yeah. 

Em: Yeah, okay. So, um, because of this name change, it’s thought that his spirit wanders the area, seeking vengeance on the spirits who took over his castle. 

Christine: Ohh, okay. 

Em: So that’s one side of it. Now this is where it gets wildly loosely based because all of that– 

Christine: I just like saw something out of the corner of my eye again, but this time like right next to me. That was so weird. 

Em: Hans? What did it look like? 

Christine: [laughs] I know! It– but it’s just like a wall next to me, so I’m like– 

Em: What did it look like? 

Christine: It just looked like something just like went right past me, but I’m literally– 

Em: Do you have dowsing rods with you? 

Christine: –in a corner. This is like what’s next to me. [Christine angles camera, showing the corner next to her: a bookshelf, closed curtains, and a plant] 

Em: Well, I’m glad to not be there. 

Christine: Um, I– Me too. 

Em: You don’t have dowsing rods or something? 

Christine: I thought like something fell off my shelf– I don’t, w– No. I think they’re downstairs, but– Anyway, sorry. That was weird. But I was just thinking– It happened right when I was thinking about what you said about like “trappen” or what Trapp–Trappen about like how I was just hearing someone on the stairs here, and tr– “Treppen” means stairs. 

Em: It’s Hans Trappen – Ah! 

Christine: Yeah. “Treppe” means stairs. That’s pretty weird. 

Em: Well, now you know– Maybe his name’s Hans. 

Christine: It’s a ghostly, ghostly tread. His name would be Hans. I would be fucking haunted by a ghost named Hans. I mean, are you kidding me? I can’t escape it. 

Em: Do you, um, ever talk to Harry out loud? 

Christine: Um, no. Well, maybe once or twice ever, but not really, no. Which– Maybe I should. I do talk to him in my head sometimes. 

Em: Yeah, maybe next time he’s making noise on the stairs, just go, “No, thank you, Harry. Please– Either you or your friend–“ 

Christine: That’s a good idea. I don't know why I didn’t do that. 

Em: I’m– Why doesn’t anyone ever listen to me? The “no, thank you” rule really does work. 

Christine: No, but I mean it’s so smart. I think just in the moment I was so convinced it was a real person– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –it didn’t even like occur to me. You know what I mean? 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: It was like later on when I went to bed and like woke up the next day that I was like, “Well, clearly we didn’t get murdered.” Like I– 

Em: There have been a few times where like if it’s somebody that I care about or I feel like it’s somebody that cares about me, I just say out loud like, “I– You probably don’t mean it, but you’re making me really uncomfortable. Can you kinda take it down a notch?” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, I know. You know what– 

Em: And then it, it works– 

Christine: And you know what I actually realized the next day which is so embarrassing I was almost going to not even say it? Is the next morning, I realized that I had just done a meditation before bed where I had asked my spirit guides to please make a noise in the house if they were– 

Em: Oh, Christine. 

Christine: –if they were here. And then I made Blaise get up and check if there was a– an intruder. [laughs] 

Em: Christine, you are beyond insufferable, like– [laughs] 

Christine: I’m so annoying. [laughs] I was like, I can’t believe I jut did that, and then I went to bed and went, “Fuck.” And it occurred to me like in the middle of the night, and I went, “Thank you.” [laughs] Anyway. 

Em: Oh my god. [silence] Are you there? 

Christine: Sorry, I think there’s a lag. 

Em: Oh, Christine. 

Christine: Hello? 

Em: Christine, you laughed so hard that the internet broke. 

[silence] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Talk now. Can you talk–? 

Christine: I’m so ashamed. 

Em: Oh fuck. There’s a huge– 

Christine: Yeah, I’m talking. 

Em: There’s a huge lag. 

[tech difficulty song - singing: ♪ Please stand by, we have to step away and– ♪♪] 

Em: [sighs] What happened? I– Literally, as you were laughing, it just like sh– [laughs] You were laughing so loud, and then it just s– and then it just blacked out. And it just came back, and now there’s a lag. 

Christine: [laughs] I think it’s, uh, I think it’s, I think it’s better now. And I also just remembered another thing. 

Em: What? 

Christine: About the ghostly stuff. So remember how I said my vape broke? 

Em: Yeah-huh. 

Christine: And you know how just now when I just started freaking out and the internet went out? 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: I’ve been– 

Em: What? You now have like electricity powers? 

Christine: I have been breaking everything around me. Light bulbs, uh. My phone will just turn off. Like two of my vape pens just died. And, and like, uh, I plugged something in yesterday, and it sparked and just died. And I’m like w– I’ve gone through like three laptop chargers. This is in like the last two months, and I thought like something was wrong with my house. But then when we went on tour, it kept happening. And things like spark. I, I don’t know. So I don’t know if that’s part of it, but remember I went and saw that psychic medium guy one time? And he’s like, “Has anything ever moved around you?” And I was like, “Yeah, like sometimes things fall off the wall.” And he’s like, “That’s ’cause you can channel like almost, uh, energy to move shit.” And now I’m afraid I’m like breaking everything in the house, so I’m sorry about the internet if that was me. I do apologize. 

Em: This is just a, an ori– a Disney Original Channel– Disney Channel Original Movie– 

Christine: Oh my god! [laughs] 

Em: –montage where you’re learning your skills. 

Christine: [laughs] I’m finally figuring it out. It’s like a modern day but just like an old and tired podcaster, instead of like a fun high school kid who turns into a dog or something. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Anyway, I’m sorry. That was my fun little tidbit for you, but, um, yes. I did also ask for the sign from the ghosts, and I am insufferable. And all of that is true. 

Em: Great. Well, okay. Uh, master all your skills before I really need them– 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: –so I can exploit you. Thank you so much. 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: Uh, okay. This is– So that was all the story about actual– a real German knight named Hans Von Trotha. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, about how he, he– I mean, he really did all that stuff. 

Christine: He seemed like a little prick, right? 

Em: Yes. So he gets banished. Now here’s the thing. This is where– I guess like it’s his epilogue, and this is the part that is now the legend of Hans Trapp. 

Christine: Oh! This is where it begins. 

Em: Yeah, ’cause nobody refers to any of that stuff– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –or like the backstory. That was just so everybody knows who the story is based on. 

Christine: Gotcha. 

Em: And his like fake epilogue is what the actual creature is. 

Christine: This feels like the time I watched WandaVision with you. 

Em: Yes. It does feel like we’re kinda going back and forth here. 

Christine: [laughs] And I am like very interested. I’m, I am paying attention, but it’s– I like being your student. 

Em: So if someone were to come up to me and go, “Papa, tell me all about the Hans Trapp,” uh, as like a Christmas cryptid, I would start here. 

Christine: I see. 

Em: And I would say, “Well, there was this guy. He was banished to the woods.” And that’s where it starts. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: But if people are wondering why, then the real person got banished because of the things I just said. 

Christine: He yelled at the po– He wrote a mean letter– He bullied the pope is what happened. Yeah. 

Em: Yes. But interesting, no one mentions any of that stuff, and yet Hans Trapp became like this Christian Christmas cryptid, and it had all these like very intense religious overtones that no one even talks about. 

Christine: That’s really interesting. I wonder if they were like, “Let’s make an example of this guy.” I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. That’s what it feels like. 

Christine: It’s weird. 

Em: Because they don’t mention the pope or anything afterwards, but it was very much there. 

Christine: Yeah, he’s like, “Don’t–“ He’s like, “Don’t bring me into it. I just wanna pull the strings behind the scenes.” 

Em: It’s almost like they should have– they should mention everything because– 

Christine: It feels like it’s relevant. Right? 

Em: It would certainly be a more powerful like testimonial creature. 

Christine: And a wa– And a warning, like don’t bully the Pope [laughs] or like your religious leaders. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Don’t defy the church and, and, and go against a monastery. 

Christine: Uh-huh. I’m surprised that’s not part of it. 

Em: Well, so– Um, basically they– There’s a version that says that Hans Trapp was– He’s– Or if someone asked about Hans Trapp as a creature, they would start by saying, “Well, he was once a powerful man, but he either defied the church or he started making deals with the devil.” It very quickly slips into he became like an occult practitioner. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Um, and he was banished to live alone forever. So he’s banished to the mountains of Bavaria. That’s where he apparently lives. 

Christine: First of all, nice place to be banished. If I was going to be banished somewhere, you send me right there. There’s– It’s beautiful. 

Em: It– Exactly. Um, so he’s still craving power or vengeance or insert word here that’s evil and against the church. And this is why he starts practicing dark magic, which, again, probably stems from him being evil ’cause he defied the church. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, during this time period, he’s so isolated that he slowly begins to lose his sanity, and also probably because he’s hungry and cold and has no shelter or belongings, so– 

Christine: And lives in the woods now, yeah. 

Em: Yeah, they don’t talk about any of that. They just say this man, he started be– practicing things with the devil, and then he went insane. It’s like he sounds like he was banished to the mountains and just had to live off the ground. 

Christine: Yeah, we’re a little more critical thinkers these days than I think maybe they were 400, 500 years ago, I guess. 

Em: Certainly because my next bullet point is: as he lost his sanity and once he became fully deranged, he now craves the taste of human flesh. 

Christine: Oh sure, yeah. That’s how it works. 

Em: He hatches a plan by dressing himself up as a scarecrow. Which like, by the way, again, critical thinking, maybe he was just putting fucking straw in his shirt because he was cold, like– 

Christine: Maybe he was trying to go to bed, and he was cold. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] But he hatches a plan, dresses up as a scarecrow, leans against like the stake that a– like the stick that a scarecrow would be on. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And he waits in the field for someone to walk by. 

Christine: Jesus, this is a horror movie. Okay. 

Em: A little shepherd boy– 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: Of course, a little Christian boy– 

Christine: Oh no, with a little crook and a little sheep. 

Em: Yes, uh, he eventually walks by, and Hans gets off of the scarecrow stick and stabs him with it– 

Christine: What? That’s really dark! 

Em: –drags him through the forest– 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: –preps him for cooking, and slices him up. 

Christine: Germans are so fucked up, dude. 

Em: [laughs] And as he’s about to take his very first bite of this little shepherd boy, a bolt of lightning comes down, strikes him down, cracks his head open, and he dies. 

Christine: The Von Tr– The Trapp guy? 

Em: The Trapp guy– 

Christine: What? 

Em: –which a lot of people say in the– their stories, they say a “divine” lightning bolt or that– 

Christine: Right, okay. So I was gonna say, is this like a godly like vengeance? 

Em: Yes, it was, I guess, an allegory for God stopping evil. 

Christine: He’s been smitten– or not smitten. Smited. 

Em: Although this is where the, the atheist in me goes, “Okay, so God couldn’t do that before the little boy was stabbed with a stake, dragged, through the woods, and sliced up?” But okay, whatever. 

Christine: Yeah, but the boy was just part of the story, you know? It’s just like– He’s just a, he’s just a plot point here. 

Em: Right. He had a purpose in, in God’s world, and it was to be an example. 

Christine: Right. 

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Em: So anyway, this lightning bolt splits his head open while he’s on the way down. 

Christine: That’s cool. 

Em: Dies. Um– Merry Christmas! So this– 

Christine: Yeah, this is– So far, this– I do see how this definitely correlates to the holidays. It’s definitely matched up so far. 

Em: [laughs] Uh, a wicked cannibal scarecrow. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So this backstory helped the region use Hans Trapp as a scary– 

Christine: Also this little shepherd boy is walking around with a lamb. You’ve got some good eats right in front of you. 

Em: I know. Lamb shank, are you kidding me? 

Christine: Are you kidding me? You could just– You’re literally, you’re literally in the woods, hungry. And a beautiful little sheep or a lamb– Now normally, I wouldn’t recommend eating someone else’s sheep, but it’s better than eating them. 

Em: Maybe he went out there to find his sheep like M-Mary or something. 

Christine: Like Mary? 

Em: Who had a little lamb. 

Christine: Oh right. She did have– 

Em: Wait, was she looking for them? Or she already had one? [singing] ♪ Mary had a– ♪♪ 

Christine: No, that one followed– It followed her around everywhere. She was trying to get rid of that lamb, I think. 

Em: Oh right. So maybe the shepherd is the opposite. 

Christine: She– Honestly, I think she was trying to shake him off. So clingy. 

Em: Maybe he was like, um, like a coven-less witch. He just didn’t– He was a shepherd-less– A sheep-less shepherd. 

Christine: Aw, that’s sad. 

Em: What’s a group of sheep called? A flock? 

Christine: A flock of sheep, yes. 

Em: So he’s a flock-less shepherd. 

Christine: Oh wow. That’s beautiful, Em. 

Em: I know what I am. 

Christine: And now he’s a, now he’s a dead flock-less shepherd. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] He didn’t have a lot going for him. No sheep, no life. 

Christine: Oh. Stabbed with your own crook. 

Em: So, uh, this backstory helped the region use Hans Trapp, this backstory– Like it, it was already bad that he defied the pope, but I guess he had to be a cannibal scarecrow. 

Christine: Yeah, it wasn’t, it wasn’t en– quite enough. 

Em: It helped the region use Hans Trapp as a scary warning to other naughty children like this shepherd boy. I like that now he’s naughty. 

Christine: Why is he naughty? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: He was literally work– child-laboring. He was out in the fields. 

Em: Well, he was bad at his job. Flock-less shepherd. 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: Uh, so– But it taught other kids that if you weren’t careful, the cannibal scarecrow will come after you, drag you into the forest, and eat you up. 

Christine: Imagine how scared you’d be of a normal scarecrow after this like if you believed this. 

Em: [laughs] I know. 

Christine: Like you would never wanna be in a field again. 

Em: And also part of me would be like he’s not going to eat me up, God stopped it last time. That would be me being an asshole. 

Christine: Yeah, but, but like– 

Em: I’d be like he’ll kill me, but– 

Christine: He killed you first. 

Em: Somehow, this did become a slippery slope into Christmas territory when reprimanding your kids of “be good, or else this guy will come find you.” 

Christine: Oh jeez. 

Em: Especially because he looked very Santa-esque. He was tall with a long white beard, pointy hat like the poem– as white as white, or whatever. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Um, he had black boots, and sometimes he was seen riding a horse because he was originally a knight. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: But you could attribute a horse to like a reindeer, um. 

Christine: No, you couldn’t, but okay. 

Em: And, uh, Hans Trapp has similar, obviously, Christmas– er, Krampus undertones– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –uh, that maybe made people think of Christmas because they were like, “He sounds like that other guy we celebrate on Christmas.” 

Christine: “Oh! He sounds like that other man who beats up my children on Christmas.” 

Em: Like Krampus, he carries a bag with him sometimes for all of the children he’ll be dragging through the forest. And he– 

Christine: Oh, cute. [laughs] 

Em: And he carries that long rod from the poem to beat naughty kids with. 

Christine: Nice. 

Em: And now the legend is that a scarecrow roams the area before Christmas, picking out which kids he will eat for Christmas dinner. 

Christine: That’s so psychotic. This is like somehow scarier to me than Krampus. 

Em: In a lot of ver– Yeah, ’cause like Krampus will beat you and then kind of leave you alone, right? 

Christine: This is like predetermined– I, I think there’s different versions where sometimes Krampus will like take you with him, which is also very scary, but this one that he’s like predetermining– Like he’s like, he’s like lurking around before Christmas, picking who’s gonna be his dinner. Like what the fuck? 

Em: But that also feels like you have a chance to correct your, your wrongdoings before he comes– You can repent, see? 

Christine: Yeah, but what if he spots you in the window and picks you, and then it’s like is it too late now? Like do I– 

Em: Oh yeah. 

Christine: How do I prove it now, you know? Like if he just– 

Em: How do I wipe off this mark he’s given me? 

Christine: Right. If he spotted me already– Oh my gosh. 

Em: Next time he sees me, he’s coming after me. How do I– 

Christine: He has a fork in his hand. Oh gosh. 

Em: Yeah. In a lot of versions, Hans Trapp and Santa work together, um, a la good cop/bad cop. 

Christine: Cute. 

Em: Because, uh– This is my personal favorite version of the backstory. This was from one source, but I gotta tell you it’s delicious. 

Christine: It’s important. 

Em: Santa heard about Hans because Santa heard that children were in danger. 

Christine: Santa hears everything. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] He does. He knows– He’s– When you’re sleeping and everything. 

Christine: All of it. 

Em: He heard that the little kids in the town were in danger. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Santa said, “Not today, motherfucker.” 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: He traps Hans. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Actually, he uses one of his friends and baits Hans is the real thing. 

Christine: Who’s his friend? 

Em: I should know this, but I forgot. 

Christine: An elf? Like what do you mean? Santa doesn’t have friends. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m so confused right now. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] No, it was some other like folklore creature. 

Christine: Oh. [laughs] 

Em: Some other Christian cha– [laughs] 

Christine: I was like who the fuck are you talking about? I was about ready to start yelling. I felt like you were challenging everything I know. 

Em: That little fucker who wants to be a dentist. Yeah, that one. 

Christine: Yeah, what the fuck is that all about? Get a grip. 

Em: So, uh, Santa traps him, uh, and then like confines him and trains him back to humanity. And then– 

Christine: What? Like a rehab program? What the fuck? 

Em: Talk about his application for the institution. 

Christine: Yeah, seriously. 

Em: Talk about his Disney Channel Original Movie montage– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –where he’s being trained back to humanity. And then Hans becomes Santa’s guardian every Christmas where he protects Santa from his ops who like– Who the fuck is like an enemy of Santa? But also, uh, he wants– He does this as a way to repent for his sins by punishing other sinners. 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: It’s that Christian logic. It’s kind of backwards and forwards all at the same time. 

Christine: Okay, so now what’s his name, uh, now? Uh, Trapp, uh– 

Em: Hans Trapp. 

Christine: Hans Trapp– He now is like sort of the Leonardo DiCaprio, like the Catch Me If You Can, like he’s now working for the good side. 

Em: He’s a, a double agent. 

Christine: Double agent but using his like bad intel to like go target people he knows are bad. 

Em: He, he goes with Santa – one, for protection because the snow might come down? I don’t know. 

Christine: Yeah, that would be ba– 

Em: I don’t know what he’s protecting Santa from. 

Christine: That would be super bad. 

Em: Um, but also he will go to each of the naughty children and say, “I’ve been there. Don’t do that.” And yes, he’s– I guess he’s a– He’s like when all the people at DARE would make someone come in who has done drugs. 

Christine: Scared Straight! type thing. 

Em: Yes, yes. 

Christine: Okay, okay. I get it. 

Em: For sure, for sure. 

Christine: I get it. I get it. Okay. 

Em: We had someone at, um– come to our school for the DARE program. 

Christine: Yeah, let’s share these ’cause, uh, ’cause these are good. Yeah, go ahead. 

Em: And, uh– 

Christine: Love these stories. 

Em: She said, which like I, I’m– Maybe it’s true. I don’t believe her though. When I was ten too, I didn’t believe her. Maybe it’s true. But for those who don’t know what the DARE program is, it’s something that like all of the fourth and fifth graders have to go through or used to have to go through. I don’t know if they do anymore. Uh, it’s to teach us to not do drugs. And they will bring like a cop in– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –who will teach you about drugs. 

Christine: It says like, “Dare to avoid drugs and alcohol!” 

Em: Yeah. Drug Alcohol Resistance Education. 

Christine: I think they, I think they do this– I’m pretty sure they do this in the UK too because, um, on My Dad Wrote a Porno, I remember, uh, one of them– J-Jamie like– or James like read a poem or a rap he wrote for DARE in hi– in middle school. 

Em: That’s beautiful. 

Christine: And it was like so cringey, but so I think it’s probably pretty– We’ve probably all been in some, some version. 

Em: Okay. Well, so at our place, there were a few classes where a, a little like police officer came in and showed us drugs. 

Christine: Whoa! 

Em: And then we got to like look at the drugs, and they were like, “If you see this, you run!” 

Christine: It was probably like oregano. 

Em: Yeah, it was probably fucking oregano. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, and like powdered sugar. Um. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: They have to. There’s no way they just pass that around a ten-year-old’s– 

Christine: What do you mean? Like they’re just like have dru– have cocaine on them at school? 

Em: They literally had little baggies and showed them to us. And they were like, “This is what it looks like.” 

Christine: That’s crazy. I’ve never– We didn’t do that. 

Em: Um, and then they have someone come in who like– I guess he’s like– 

Christine: Who like went through it and wants to spare you his journey or their journey. 

Em: –tells you, tells you their journey and like why you should stay away. The person who came to mine did like the classic one of like “I had a friend who…” which makes me think that you’re just saying the same scary words that everyone else is. That her friend took some sort of crazy halluc-hallucinogen and, um, thought that her arm was snakes. And then she cut her own arms off. 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. That– It feels– 

Em: I was like, “Both of them? How did she do that without the other arm?” 

Christine: No. No, that– Yeah. That’s insane. And that also feels like the same energy of like, “Oh, well, my aunt’s cousin’s art teacher–“ 

Em: Yes! 

Christine: “–had a– she got in the car after filling her tank up with gas, and there was a man in the seat behind her that she–“ 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: You know, the same like urban legend that always gets told. Yeah, that– It feels like that a little bit. 

Em: Even at ten, I was like, “Boo!” I was like– 

Christine: Like we got told that a woman, a young woman, a young babysitter who was like a teenage girl microwaved a baby, ’cause she thought it was a baked potato ’cause she was so high on marijuana. 

Em: Yeah. Yes! [laughs] 

Christine: And it like– It scared me so bad. I was like, “She microwaved an infant?” And now I’m wait, “Wait, what the fuck?” And I mean like maybe that’s– 

Em: It’s like they were trying to think of the scariest things that R. L. Stine could come up with. You know? 

Christine: Right, and it’s like maybe that happened at some point in life like somebody did that, but I think it’s not just like some teenager who was stoned. I think it was probably either a, a much more horrific and nuanced story than that, but– 

Em: Yeah, I feel like they were trying to find whatever the scariest urban legend thing was– 

Christine: Shock value. 

Em: –and they just told like their brother to come in and pretend he’d done drugs. I don’t know. 

Christine: So it– I bet you ’cause being– 

Em: That’s what it felt like. I don’t– 

Christine: That’s what it felt like. And like they were always in their 20s, and it was like– So the girl who came to our class– I remember our teacher made us leave in the middle of it ’cause in the middle– And it was in St. Cecilia’s, and we had to sit in the little auditorium and listen. And this woman came, and she was an alumni of our school– or an alum of our school. And she told this story about how she got really into alcohol and drugs, and then she’s like, “And then one day, I was– I found myself suddenly giving a blowjob to this man.” [laughs] And everybody in the auditorium suddenly is like, “What?” 

Em: Yeah, of course. Your ears perk up. 

Christine: Starts listening. And the tea– Oh my god. The way that the teachers were like, “Everybody out.” And they started like shooing us out, um, and we were like, “No, we want to hear about this blowjob.” [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, like damn. If you wanted our attention, you’ve got it. 

Christine: And she got– She– They were like, “That was too far.” And she’s like, “I was just trying to tell my story.” I’m like– That one I actually believed ’cause she was telling the story, and we were all like, “Holy shit, girl.” 

Em: Well, isn’t that the whole point? It’s like– 

Christine: Yeah! 

Em: –it’s supposed to be shocking. It’s like sorry it also shocked the teachers. 

Christine: And by the way, I was like, “I don’t want to give anyone a blowjob. I really don’t want to get into drugs. Thank you. This really worked for me.” [laughs] 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: “Th-thanks. You fixed me.” [laughs] 

Em: Exactly. I– No, I– And honestly, I know somebody has probably really cut their arm off or something from– 

Christine: Done something, right. 

Em: –but like there’s no away in Fredericksburg, Virginia on a Tuesday you found the person who– that everyone’s been talking about for 30 years, and– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That w– Yeah, that– It feels like one of those just Scared Straight! stories– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –um, much like what Hans would be probably telling all these kids. 

Em: Exactly. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “I’m, I’m a sinner. Or I was a sinner, and I’ve repented my ways. And now I’ve teamed up with Santa.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “And you can be a good little Christian and get Christmas presents.” 

Christine: “And you too can be turned ar– toward Jesus.” 

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Em: There’s lots of versions like that. I mean, that’s just my favorite story that he tri– Santa trapped him and trained him back to being a human, um, which like also implies that he was a monster at some point, right? 

Christine: Yeah, that he wasn’t– Yeah. 

Em: It– Because if you’re not Christian, then you’re an animal or something. 

Christine: Yeah, good point. Yuck. 

Em: Um, but there’s a lot of versions like that. But basically Santa and Hans are often in cahoots with each other. And one place you can see this take place is at the Hans Trapp parade in– How do you say it? Wissembourg? [pronounced “wis-em-burg”] 

Christine: How do you spell it? 

Em: W-I-S-S-E-M-bourg. 

Christine: Oh, “Wissem” [pronounced “vis-em”]. Wissembourg [pronounced “vis-em-borg”]. 

Em: Wissembourg [pronounced “vis-em-burg”]. Wissembourg [pronounced “vis-em-borg”]. 

Christine: B-U-R-G? Or E-R-G? 

Em: O-U-R-G. 

Christine: O-U-R-G? Wissem– Wissembourg [pronounced “vis-em-borg”]. I don’t know. 

Em: Well, that is the original city where Ha– the actual German knight was banished from. And every December, they have a parade there now of the creature that has morphed out of his story, Hans Trapp. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And at this parade, there are monks. 

Christine: Oh. Real ones? 

Em: Uh, fire– Yeah, I guess so. 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: I hope so. Uh, fire jugglers and percussionists. 

Christine: Real ones? Just kidding. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Fuck, marry, kill: monks, fire jugglers, percussionists. 

Christine: Uh, hold on. Um. 

Em: Um, obviously you’re going to fuck the fire jugglers ’cause that’s too crazy to not do. 

Christine: I almost wanted to marry though for constant entertainment, you know. 

Em: Oh, interesting. 

Christine: What was the last one again? 

Em: Percussionists. 

Christine: Yeah, fuck that. No, I mean not fuck that, but well– 

Em: I’m killing the monks, let’s be clear. 

Christine: I think we gotta kill the monks ’cause they’re not really gonna do much. Unless they know how to make beer. 

Em: I guess– 

Christine: ’Cause a lot of monks make beer, and that would be really beneficial to me. So I would marry a monk if they– if we had an open relationship, and I could maybe go like check out the percussionists every now and then– wink! 

Em: Maybe they run a monk brewery, and percussionists play every Thursday night with the fire jugglers. 

Christine: And then, and then I get to kill one– somebody and have sex with somebody else. 

Em: Great. I love that. 

Christine: [laughs] I’m sorry. This is like me explaining a joke to my dad, and I’m like, “See? And then you have se–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And then it’s like no– now it’s not funny. 

Em: It’s like explaining a board game. It’s– [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, it’s not funny anymore. It– Like this just sucks now. 

Em: Okay, so the parade has– [laughs] 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: –monks, fire jugglers– 

Christine: I’m so sorry. 

Em: –has those three things at his parade, all warning the, the town, “Quick! Hans Trapp is coming! Be good! Be good!” And then– 

Christine: All very fuckable. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] And, uh, after the monks, the fire jugglers, and the percussionists and all of their warnings that Hans Trapp was coming, then rolling down the street is a carriage full of imprisoned naughty children– 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: –who are, who are crying out behind bars to be helped before Hans Trapp gets them. 

Christine: I’ve seen that. I’ve seen that imagery. Somebody like has tagged me, I think, in posts about that, but I didn’t know what it was. 

Em: Oh, here you go. Well, then Hans Trapp appears, and he walks amongst the kids and asks if they’ve been good. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Uh, where’s Santa? I don’t know, so maybe they’re not always together. And then later another person appears, which is Christkindel [pronounced “krist-kindle”]? 

Christine: Mm-hmm, the Christ child. 

Em: –who is an angel, an angel-like being who wears a crown of candles and symbolizes “the Light.” And she instills hope in all the scared children, uh, because Hans Trapp is obviously trying to take away the naughty ones, but she says, “No, no, no, you’re going to be okay if you stay with me, if you become Christian, blah-blah-blah.” And Christkindel confronts Hans Trapp during this parade, and, frightened by the Light of Christ, he flees back to his castle. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: And the whole town celebrates good overcoming evil, and– 

Christine: Wow, so it’s like a war of Good versus Evil. 

Em: Mm-hmm. God’s army. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: And then Christkindel hands out presents. There’s a firework show, and usually Saint Nicholas shows up as well to help with the presents. I don’t know. To– 

Christine: My mom saw the– 

Em: –drink hot chocolate. 

Christine: –Christ angel child, whatever, one time when she was a little kid. 

Em: Oh really? 

Christine: Yeah, she said she was just– heard a voice to go look outside and looked up at the sky. And there was this beautiful angel flying above the house. 

Em: Oh. Wow. 

Christine: I don’t know. She used to tell me that, and I never believed her. And now I’m just like, I just like the story so I believe her. Why wouldn’t I believe her? I don’t know. 

Em: That’s, that’s nice. 

Christine: Um, but yeah. Christkindel, uh, and like “Kind” means child. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: So it’s like “Christ child.” 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: Christkind. It’s like the symbo– But, um, have you heard of Christkindlmarkt? It’s like a Christmas festi– 

Em: Maybe. 

Christine: It’s like a Christmas market that like a lot of towns have started doing. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: Um, it’s like a German Christmas market basically. They’re really fun, and they have like mulled wine and lots of like cuckoo clocks and presents you can buy and stuff. 

Em: Oh fun. Nice. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, anyway, that’s Hans Trapp. 

Christine: What a story, Em. 

Em: Everyone be a good Christian this Christmas. Ho ho ho. Or else a cannibal scarecrow’s gonna get you. 

Christine: Uh, th– I mean, I just googled him, and the photos they’ve got of this guy are fucking upsetting. Like he looks like– 

Em: German? 

Christine: Oh, ghostadventures.com. Well, that explains it. 

Em: Did you just look at a picture of Zak? 

Christine: N– No, it’s literally just a fucking scarecrow skeleton situation. 

Em: Terrifying. 

Christine: It’s so scary-looking though. I can’t believe I didn’t know about this guy. Alrighty, Em. Thank you for sharing that story with us. I’ve now got a story for us as well that absolutely has nothing to do with Christmas, and I’m sorry about that. 

Em: Boo! That’s okay. I brought, I brought the goods this time. 

Christine: Hey, wait. I know. It’s a cold case. Does that count? 

Em: Does that mean I can solve it today for everybody? 

Christine: Well, I just meant ’cause it’s cold ’cause it’s winter, but also–[silence] No, not that. 

Em: I do like the pun that you made. 

Christine: Oh wow. That really didn’t land, huh. Okay, um. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, how about– Let’s try again. Yeah, it’s a cold case, Em, so at least you can have a chance at solving it, which is your greatest Christmas wish. 

Em: [laughs] It’s my– It’s– [high childlike voice] Oh! Merry Christmas everyone! 

Christine: [high childlike voice] Ev– To each and everyone– [normal voice] Shut the fuck up, Tiny Tim. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That guy pisses me off every time. I’m like– 

Em: He pisses me right off. 

Christine: He ticks me O every– 

Em: I want to kick his little crutches out. I wanna be like– 

Christine: I wanna kick his little crotch is what I want to do. 

Em: Oh my god. [laughs] 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: I do. I, I will tell you I’ve never met a Tiny Tim I did, I did like. 

Christine: Agreed. 

Em: Um, because at every school play I’ve been to where someone played Tiny Tim, I was like, “This fucking guy? Please.” Maybe I’ve ju– only watched people perform him wrong. Maybe that’s why I hate him. 

Christine: No, it– But maybe it’s like, “Oh, that character just does not vibe with our energy.” You know what I mean? ’Cause it’s like, “Okay, you’re making these crutches like a part of your persona, and it’s becoming a lot for a lot of us. Like you’re, you’re making this all about you.” 

Em: I f– I feel like if instead of Tiny Tim, there was like Big Tim, and he was just like dragging a cigarette, it– 

Christine: Wait, but hold– Hang on, I got it. It’s Tiny Tim, but he’s just really huge. He’s just like– You know how they call cer– like certain gangsters like “Tiny,” but they’re huge. 

Em: Oh yeah! Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like that. It’s like, [deep voice] “I’m Tiny Tim.” 

Em: The– Yeah, he’s actually– His last name’s actually Soprano, and he’s just Tiny Tim Soprano. And– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: He g– He’s, he’s like, [deep rough voice] “Merry Christmas, everyone.” 

Christine: He’s got meaty fists this, this bad boy. 

Em: Yeah. He’s got salami dripping down his mouth. Oh, yeah, see that one I can fuck with. 

Christine: Now this is more our speed. 

Em: And he’s got crutches because he was just in a gang shootout, obviously. 

Christine: He’s got no crutches. He tosses those to the side. 

Em: Yeah, he just walks with a limp now. [deep, rough voice] “That’s what you do. Bada bing, bada boom.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I like him. 

Christine: Thank you. Capicola. 

Em: We are so beyond unhinged today. I really am so sorry to everybody who just wanted a straightforward fucking story. 

Christine: What are you talking about? I’m having a really reasonable and academic experience with you today. 

Em: Not a single sentence has just been said today. 

Christine: Well, here’s– 

Em: Let’s kee– Okay. 

Christine: Ee-oh-oo-ah-ah– Here’s the cold case of Michelle Martinko. 

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Christine’s Story – The Cold Case of Michelle Martinko

Christine: Michelle Martinko was born in 1961 in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, which is a place that you and I went for, at least for me, the first time this year. Iowa, not Cedar Rapids.

Em: Uh– 

Christine: But Ido– Iowa. Didn’t we– 

Em: I went to Cedar Rapids. 

Christine: Did you? This year or like before? 

Em: I did. 

Christine: Oh nice, how was it? 

Em: When we went, when we went to Iowa, I had a day to kill, so I went to Cedar Rapids. I don’t know why, but that city in my mind has always been like– I– Maybe I knew someone in my past who lived there, and so the name was just more popular in my head. 

Christine: No, I, I bet I know why. I bet I know why. 

Em: Why? 

Christine: ’Cause I think I know why it’s in my head. ’Cause it sounds a little bit like Cedar Park– 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: –and it also sounds like, like rapids like it’s some like, uh– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –theme park or something. It feels like a place where you’d have a connection or like want to go to. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: But it’s like random. 

Em: Uh, it was actually the o– complete opposite of fun. Sorry, Cedar Rapids. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: It was fucking not worth it. 

Christine: But, but I literally hear Cedar Rapids, and I’m like, “Oh! Like Pigeon Forge–“ 

Em: Yes! 

Christine: –“or like Cedar Point.” 

Em: Yes! 

Christine: And then it’s like that’s not what it is, but I’ve never been so I guess– 

Em: Fucking, fucking Eva– Eva– I told her– I was like, “I think I’m gonna spend a day in Cedar Rapids.” And she went, “Why?” 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: And I went– 

Christine: See, I’d never known about it at all. 

Em: And I went, “Well, isn’t it like a, like a hot spot?” And she went, “I don’t think so.” And I went, “Ah, Eva doesn’t know what she’s talking about. I’m gonna have fun.” 

Christine: I genuinely thought the same. 

Em: And then I sw– I literally– It’s the only city I have changed my flight and flew away early ’cause I was like– 

Christine: Did you? 

Em: –there’s nothing. 

Christine: Okay. But like remember when you said I went to Cedar Rapids, I said, “Oh, how was it?” 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: ’Cause in my head, it was still this like cool place. 

Em: I feel so seen. 

Christine: Not that it’s not cool, folks, but I really pictured it as like a theme park place. [laughs] 

Em: I feel so seen. Also like I– There was like– I tried like three things there which like– There was like kind of like a little walking area. That was nice. Um– 

Christine: Well, there’s the National Czech and Slovak Museum and Library, which I’m not saying is not fun. It’s just not maybe the vibe that I was imagining, you know? 

Em: I– Like there was a, a Mount Trashmore, which there’s one in Virginia– 

Christine: Oh, cute. 

Em: –so I, I did that. There was, um, like a little, little walking area next to that that I went to. So like I– But I did everything in like an hour, and I was like, “Well, now what?” I did get– 

Christine: Well, they’ve got a lot of floods in their history, so that’s interesting. [laughs] 

Em: I went to as– There was like a food market, but like you can only eat so much food. Like I, um– After like a few shops, I was like, “I think that’s it. I don’t know what else there is.” And so, um, uh, oh, what was I going to tell you? Fuck. Anyway, I thought it was gonna be a real gas, and it is not the amusement park that you and I both think it is. 

Christine: This is– I’m actively learning this because I really never really actively thought about it. It was just always subconsciously in my mind, and so when you said it, I went, “Oh, how fun.” And then I went, “Wait a minute. Is this where my illusions are all disassembled in front of me?” Yes. 

Em: Yeah, somehow. I, I didn’t know what t– I tried. I fought so hard to make it– ’Cause you know me, I’m like I will find the fun. I’ll find it. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And maybe it was because– 

Christine: Em will find a wall made of like gum and make it fun. 

Em: I, I found some things, but it was like not even a full day worth of stuff. 

Christine: Oh man. 

Em: And so I was like, “Okay. Well, maybe this is just like a sleepier town.” Also I found a, um– In like all of their listicles, there was this one like burger place where they were like, “This is the best burger I’ve ever had!” I went there. They made me wait an hour and ten minutes. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: It wasn’t even like busy, and then when I got the burger, I was like, “This doesn’t, this doesn’t taste like it was worth an hour, for sure.” 

Christine: Oh man. 

Em: So, I– I’m sorry. I’m like totally trashing on Cedar Rapids right now. 

Christine: Sorry, guys. 

Em: But in my mind, I really thought it was gonna be like a, a Six Flags experience, you know. 

Christine: Well, we did go to Iowa City, and we did like get to drive through. I feel like we had more fun driving around and like exploring and stuff, but, um. But yeah, I def– 

Em: I, I did like Iowa City a lot. 

Christine: Yeah, Iowa City is cool too, but I, I–Yeah, wow. I’m being very disillusioned about Cedar Rapids now because I think it is Cedar Park and like Grand Rapids– 

Em: You’re totally right. ’Cause you hear “Rapids,” and you think “fun.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, it just– And then Cedar Point– You know, it just kinda– Anyway, so that’s where Michelle was born – the boring ass city of Cedar Rapids. 

Em: [laughs] And then she– As soon as her little legs started working, she ran out of there. 

Christine: She said, “Get me out of this fucking joint. Take me to Pigeon Forge. Take me to a real town.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, okay. So she’s born in 1961 in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. She was the youngest of two daughters. And by the way, folks, can, can you guys chime in if you also ever had that subconscious thought as a kid about Cedar Rapids because I feel like that can’t be just me and Em. 

Em: We can’t be alone. 

Christine: Because if you and I both had that i– like– 

Em: We’ve never talked about it. 

Christine: –isolated experience and we’ve never discussed that, it has to be a more common thing. I don’t know. 

Em: I mean, it was, it was– Yeah. Please. Please say something. 

Christine: It just feels like something probably maybe we’re all having a Mandela Effect about. 

Em: And i– And if I– If you’re from Cedar Rapids and I missed something, write it below, so if I’m ever there again I have something to do. 

Christine: They’re like, “You didn’t go a mile in where the giant Cedar Rapids, uh, fun park and aquarium and, uh, theme park water slide is?” No, we missed that. 

Em: Well, okay. I will say one fun thing about Cedar Rapids, which I do truly think was a fun fact. 

Christine: Yeah? 

Em: Um, is that apparently they are either the only place or one of the only places that they have a, a f– It must be like a General Mills or a Kellogg’s factory or something nearby that exclusively does, uh, Crunch Berry like Cap’n Crunch Berries. 

Christine: Well, I saw a Quaker thing on their, uh, Wikipedia. 

Em: Well, so they– because they’re– 

Christine: About– A-as one of their employer– like top employers is the Quaker fact– Is it Qu-Quaker Oats or–? 

Em: I don’t know what it is. But, um, they like exclusively do, uh, the Crunch Berries. 

Christine: Quaker Oats company. 

Em: Oh okay. That makes sense. Well, apparently, if you drive by the factory, it like smells like Crunch Berries. 

Christine: No way! That’s pretty cool. 

Em: And so in the tchotchke shops I did go to, there was like Crunch Berry stuff. 

Christine: Oh, that’s cute. 

Em: And then– and I went to an ice cream place, and like their m-main topping on everything was Crunch Berry. So like I appreciated that. I thought that was cute. 

Christine: And I love Crunch Berries. Yeah, that sounds– 

Em: So I got, I got a Mount Trashmore shirt, and I got a Crunch Berry sticker. So that was the kind of the highlight of it. 

Christine: That’s actually very cute because I, I love– but also that does incredibly fit into the exact mold of what I would have thought about Cedar Rapids. Like if I had just believed everything I already thought about Cedar Rapids and then somebody told me, “Also they have the Crunch Berry factory, and the whole town smells like Crunch Berries,” like that would have made it even more magical, you know, back in the day. 

Em: [laughs] It’s like Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory. 

Christine: Yeah, like, “Wow! They even have ice cream with Crunch Berries on it.” Like it just sounds so magical. 

Em: I– No, I totally agree. I would have been like, “We’re gonna go ride the log canyon rapids–“ 

Christine: Yes! Yes, yes. “Through the milk river–“ [laughs] 

Em: “And then we’re gonna, and then we’re go–“ [laughs] “We’re gonna eat Crunch Berries all day.” 

Christine: Like it would have, it would have felt like it had to be part of it, but I think we just, uh– 

Em: As a five-year-old, it– And also– 

Christine: It made sense. 

Em: At Mount Trashmore, there’s a playground made of garbage. Like it sounds– 

Christine: See? 

Em: It sounds like a seven-year-old’s dream. So anyway, I’m trying to talk it up a little bit ’cause I realized I poo-pooed on it for the Cedar Rapids people. 

Christine: Yes, I understand. Well, I, I am happy to know because I did not know that about Crunch Berries, and that’s kind of a pretty fun fact. And it makes sense why Quaker Oats is a top employer there. So anyway, um, that’s where Mi– [laughs] Michelle was born. Alright. 

Em: Okay. [laughs] 

Christine: I’ll move to, uh– 

Em: Bullet number two. [laughs] 

Christine: Actually, I have– I actually haven’t finished bullet number one. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So I’ll, I’ll finish that, [laughs] I’ll finish that first as you begin your second smoothie of the day. 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: Is this one– the one with kiwi in it? 

Em: This is the one with kiwi. 

Christine: Okay, great. Let us know if it’s better or worse. 

Em: Okay, I’ll tell you right now. Mm. It’s a little more tart. I think if I– I would recommend no kiwi when you start out. So it’s– 

Christine: To get– 

Em: Blueberry– Blueberry Bliss. Sub mango for– or sub the banana for mango and add extra strawberries. 

Christine: What if you put extra– I would do it with mango but keep the banana. Do you– Would– Is that something you would eat or no? 

Em: I just think– 

Christine: Are you not into banana? 

Em: I’m fine. I’m fine with bananas, but it just overpowers any smoothie. It’s just like the first flavor you taste. 

Christine: Oh. I think that– I think I like it, you kn– I think I like that part of it, but, um, mango would sound good too. So Michelle Martinko was born in 1961 in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, the youngest of two daughters. 

She grew up as a charismatic performer who excelled in things like choir, community theater. Uh, her friends described her as very upbeat, very friendly. On December 19th, 1979, Michelle went to the Westdale Mall with about $180 in cash because she wanted to do some Christmas shopping. And she a– 

Em: Hey, girl. 

Christine: I know. And she also wanted to, uh, pick up a winter coat that her mom had bought for her. So at this point, she’s 18. And you know when you’re like 18 and you finally maybe have like a job or a little bit of cash, and you’re like, “I can buy Christmas presents for people.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And it like feels so empowering in a way like I can– I have my own money to spend like even a little bit. Um, so I just love that she like went to the mall with some cash and was gonna buy her family Christmas gifts or her friends, um, but she also was going to pick up a winter coat that her mom put on layaway for her. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: So Michelle’s friends described her as like a very “girly girl”, “impeccably dressed.” Like she just always was put together. She liked to do her hair, makeup. She cared about her clothes. Um, and so that night, she left for the mall from a holiday banquet with her high school choir, so she was even more dressed up than usual. She had like a beautiful like elegant black gown on. She was wearing high heels. And she was wearing a white jacket made of rabbit fur. 

Em: Okay, girl. Wow. 

Christine: Girl. I mean, it’s the ’70s, but still. [laughs] Whoa. 

Em: Rabbit fur? That’s– 

Christine: Intense. 

Em: Not trying to compare animals here, but like that takes– That’s a lot of rabbits to make a one– That feels a little Cruella de Vil. 

Christine: Well, I mean that’s– I mean, a mink is very small. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: They’re like this big [holds both hands up, about shoulder width apart] 

Em: Really? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I think up until this moment I didn’t know a mink was real, but I did know that their fur was real. 

Christine: Oh, that’s an interesting plot twist. 

Em: [laughs] I– 

Christine: We’re just– We’re unlearning a lot of things today, aren’t we? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Also minks are very cute. You want to see one? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like actually, you’ll find them cute, and I– you know that that’s like a high, high, high bar for Em ’cause Em does not like most things with tails that move. Or not most– Not– With– It’s cute though. 

Em: [looking at a picture of a mink] Oh! If it– If the, if the tail doesn’t have fur, I won’t like it. That’s the thing. 

Christine: Right, no. Exactly. Yes. 

Em: I’m very specific. 

Christine: But isn’t he cute? 

Em: This is a little monkey face. So sweet. 

Christine: I know. And see the fur? That’s what they– They just slaughter ‘em. 

Em: Oh, well. Now I’m sad. Okay. 

Christine: Yeah. Good, that’s what I’m here for. 

Em: Well, look at his little toes, his little minky toes. 

Christine: Isn’t he cute? 

Em: Oh man. 

Christine: So anyway, yeah. She’s made of– She’s dressed in rabbit fur. Um, and I do wonder when she went to the mall and her mom had put a coat on layaway for her, I’m like, was it a rabbit coat? Do they have that at Macy’s? What’s happening? I don’t know. Maybe in the ‘70s. 

Em: Maybe in the ’70s. 

Christine: Yeah, could be. So anyway, she had gone from her choir, uh, event with her gown, her rabbit fur jacket, and her high heels to the mall. And she didn’t tell her parents where she planned to go after this banquet, um, so she didn’t– They didn’t know like– They just assumed she had plans with friends. They didn’t know where she was going. She decided to go to the mall. They weren’t really worried about it. She’s 18. She can drive. She can handle herself. So she was a high school senior, and it was just a few days ’til Christmas. She had recently turned 18, and it made sense for her to be out and about. But when the evening passed and it started to get late, her parents were like, “Okay, I know she had plans, but like she should be home by now.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So Janet called around town to Michelle’s friend. Janet’s her mom. Uh, and the friend said, “Oh, she was going to the mall to meet up with some people.” So nobody knew if like– like who she was meeting up with, if she was meeting up with anyone, or maybe she just went to the mall to pick something up and– by herself. Um, but her friend said, “All we know is she was going to the mall after the banquet.” So finally, her parents call the police when she doesn’t come home. And it’s 2 a.m., and they’re saying, “Well, there’s no way in hell she’s still at the mall, uh, which is closed by now. So something must be very wrong.” So based on Michelle’s probable plans at the mall, which is the only clue they really had, they focus their search in this area, which is called the Westdale area. So at 4 a.m., which is two hours after they called the police, the search, uh, located the Martinko’s 1972 Buick in the mall parking lot. 

Em: Oh shit. 

Christine: So, yeah, they– 

Em: So she never left the mall. Or– well, not in her own car. 

Christine: R-Right. Right. The car is still at the mall, and it’s outside of the JCPenney. Michelle was inside the car. 

Em: [gasps] Oh man. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I really didn’t see that coming. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: I thought she was just going to be missing missing. 

Christine: I know. Well, it feels like every time, especially with a cold case, we find an abandoned car. Oftentimes, there’s nobody in it. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: So yeah, it is definitely a, a twist compared to the usual storyline. 

Em: Is she in the front seat, back seat? 

Christine: So she’s slumped across the seats, covered in blood. 

Em: [sighs] Oh. 

Christine: She had been stabbed 29 times in her chest, arms, neck, and face. 

Em: [sighs] Oh. 

Christine: That morning, Cedar Rapids’s local newspaper, The Gazette, ran a front-page headline, “C.R. student, 18, slain,” alongside a big smiling photo of Michelle. In the article, police chief asked readers for virtually any information they might have about Michelle’s final hours down to who else in town parked at JCPenney’s last night and may have seen something. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So nobody knew who had– who Michelle had seen that night, whether she had met up with someone at the mall, and they didn’t even have, for that reason, like a good estimate of her time of death because there’s just no way to know like at what point she was actually killed. There were finger marks in the dirt on Michelle’s car door, but there were no prints in it, which means the murderer wore gloves. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So that was another way that they kind of, um, faced a dead end. The police chief said they had no leads, and the investigation was basically s– quote, “starting at ground zero.” So in the following days, hundreds of people contacted the police with tips. And I feel like this is always very, um, double-edged sword because it’s good people are calling in, but then there are so many like mis– like red herring, misleading th– trails they go down. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And it turns out every single of these hundreds of leads was a dead end, so it’s just like– 

Em: That sucks. 

Christine: Doesn’t it? And it’s like just such a– feels like such a waste of time even though it’s the only way to find out if, if one of these leads is, is real. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Then a friend and fellow actor shed light on Michelle’s final hours. So Kurt Thomas had been in a school play with Michelle, and he actually worked at the Westdale Mall. So he said he saw her there– I mean, it’s hard to miss with that white rabbit coat. He said he had seen her at the mall the night before, and he said, “the two of us walked and talked around the mall for a while, and then Michelle made her way to the exit.” So Kurt walked her to the door, watched her put on her coat before she said goodbye, and then headed out into the parking lot. Kurt said he didn’t even know Michelle had been killed until police picked him up and brought him in for questioning– 

Em: Oh shit. 

Christine: –because he was a friend who worked at the mall. And before he even knew what was going on, one of them leaned over his shoulder and asked, “Why did you kill her?” 

Em: [gasps] Oh, that doesn’t feel professional, but maybe that’s– 

Christine: No. 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: And it also– He had no idea she was even dead. Like imagine that. Oh my lord. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: He insisted he had no idea what happened to Michelle, possibly just minutes after she left his sight, but detectives were not convinced ’cause this was still a little too close for their comfort. And so their suspicion remained on Kurt, but Michelle’s family actually had another suspect in mind, which is, of course, one of Michelle’s ex-boyfriends. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: His name is Andy Siedel [pronounced “see-dell”] or Siedel [pronounced “see-dull”]. The brutality of the attack and its focus on Michelle’s face made investigators believe that this could have been like a personal attack, which we’ve talked about where sometimes people get their anger out in a very like vicious personal attack, especially with a knife-related crime, by attacking the face, um, or genitals or other body parts. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, that might be like a personal attack. So Michelle had been diagnosed with scoliosis when she was 12-years-old, and she actually had to wear a corrective brace from her hips all the way to her neck for two years. 

Em: Shit. 

Christine: And you, you know nowadays, I feel like, of course, that would make you feel– some kids at least, feel like, uh, self-conscious– 

Em: Insecure. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, insecure. And she absolutely did. I imagine in the ‘70s especially, like you know it’s– 

Em: Well, these days there’s like plastics and velcros and all these things, but back then it might have been like a big robotic metal– 

Christine: True. Big– Yeah, like where you had like headgear like on a helmet, right? 

Em: Harder to hide. Yeah. 

Christine: So harder to hide, and also like I think people were just a little more traditional back then. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And so she really, you know, felt kind of insecure about that, um, and it shook her confidence. And even once the brace was removed, she still didn’t even really consider herself like a pretty girl. Um, people said like she got so much male attention, but she didn’t even realize it. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Like she just was kind of not thinking of herself as like a desirable young woman. Um, but a lot of boys found her very attractive and wanted her attention. And she just like sometimes couldn’t click that. And Andy, her ex, was one of these guys. So they had met when Michelle was 15, and they had dated for two years before a pretty volatile breakup. Michelle’s brother-in-law said that after they broke up, Andy “just wouldn’t go away.” 

Em: Eugh. 

Christine: He demanded to know what she was doing, where she was going, who she was with, whether she was dating someone. Just immediately toxic abusive vibes here. 

Em: Yeah. I would think it was him too. 

Christine: His extreme possessiveness made Michelle’s family suspect him immediately. And John said it seemed like a case of “if I can’t have her, no one can.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So a friend said that this ex, this like abusive ex guy– A friend said that Andy, this abusive ex guy, at the funeral literally hurled himself on top of Michelle’s casket at the funeral and cried, “I have to know who she loved when she died […] Did she love me, or did she love Mike? Who did she love when she died?” 

Em: [alarmed] Ooh. 

Christine: And it’s like– And Mike was another guy she had dated. And it’s like back the fuck off. Like this is the– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –young woman’s funeral. It’s not about you versus Mike right now. 

Em: Yuck. 

Christine: Isn’t that gross? 

Em: I– Yeah. 100%. The– 

Christine: Like go away. This isn’t about you. Her parents and siblings are here. 

Em: And also like, and also like didn’t she break up with you? I think you know the answer. You know what I’m saying? Like– 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. And it’s none of your fucking– 

Em: “I want to know who she loved.” Not you, bitch. Th-that’s it. 

Christine: Not you anymore. And why bring– Like to say, “me or Mike?” Like Jesus Christ. It’s like so twisted. 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: So whether he did it or not, it’s like yuck. What a fucked up– Whatever. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So Mike Wyrick was another man Michelle had dated. People questioned him and actually even forced him to look at crime scene photos even though she had– or, even though he had a, an alibi of being a h– over 100 miles away. So it was like very traumatizing for him. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: ’Cause he sat down, finds out Michelle has been killed, and then they immediately start showing him crime scene photos of his ex-girlfriend dead, bloodied, murdered, stabbed 29 times. Um, and he was quickly cleared but then had to live with that image in his mind for the rest of his life. But Andy, they couldn’t quite clear as quickly. Michelle’s family and friends found his behavior toward Michelle before and after her death disturbing. 

Em: God. 

Christine: Um, and he was actually seen at the mall with Michelle the night she was killed. 

Em: [to an ominous melody] ♪ Duh! Duh-duh-duh-duh! ♪♪ [speaking] I don’t know what that was. Um. 

Christine: I liked it though. It felt exactly correct for the moment. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. 

Christine: It really nailed– I was like, “Yes, Em. Yes.” 

Em: It, it was my own, um– Yeah, cut to commercial break. Um, it was– 

Christine: It was good. 

Em: It was, um, my [to dramatic melody] ♪ Dun-dun-duh! ♪♪ 

Christine: Yes. Yes, it was a good sting. 

Em: Uh-huh. Thank you. Thank you. 

Christine: So he was even seen at the mall with Michelle the night she was killed, and his only alibi was that he was at home by the time the mall closed. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And they were like, “Well, we don’t even know when she was killed.” So it’s like that’s not really a good alibi. 

Em: That, that’s not helpful. 

Christine: No. But Andy’s mother was also the only one who could confirm his al-alibi, and police pretty regularly dismiss or at least don’t ta– take, take them with a grain of salt, uh– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –a par– a parent’s corroboration of an alibi. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Um, so despite the suspicion surrounding Andy and his like past sketchy behavior, there was no physical evidence linking him to the crime. And once he graduated high school, he just left town and enlisted in the navy, and many people– 

Em: He was like, “Get me out of here.” 

Christine: Yeah, seriously. Much like– I mean, it was Cedar Rapids, you know, so he was trying to get– 

Em: [laughs] He was like, “I’ve seen enough.” 

Christine: [laughs] He’s trying to get his way out of there since the day he was born. I’m kidding. 

Em: [laughs] He’s trying to like– He’s packing his bags, and like Crunch Berry dust is flying off of them. 

Christine: Yes! Yes. 

Em: He’s like, “I’m ready to get out of here and n– try some new cereal.” 

Christine: “Eat my Cap’n Crunch dust!” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Many people remain convinced that he would one day be arrested for the attack. And especially Michelle’s mom really clung onto that and believed that he was at fault, ’cause she had been up front and center when this was all happening with their really toxic relationship. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Now Michelle was 12 years younger than her older sister, and she was her parents’ “miracle baby” (that’s a quote) because– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –she had been born healthy after her mother endured five miscarriages. 

Em: Holy shit. 

Christine: Yeah, and so– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Yeah. After, after all this time, she was considered their “miracle baby.” They just adored her. Uh, Janelle said that Michelle and their mother were soulmates, which I just think is really beautiful. And, um, after she was killed, Janet, her mother, could barely talk about Michelle. She said in an interview, “I don’t think it will ever be solved.” 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: With no arrests and with Andy gone, people in Cedar Rapids were just kinda left to like ponder on their own as to the theories of who killed Michelle and why. Um, of course, the Martinkos [pronounced in episode as "Marinko"] then living in town just had to listen to all these baseless rumors. Like people just gossiping about Michelle and drug rings or human trafficking, or maybe she’s still alive, or maybe she ran away, you know, and got killed by some pimp or– You know, just like really upsetting stories that– You’re already in a bad place. You don’t need to be hearing like rumors about– 

Em: Yeah, truly. 

Christine: –unfounded rumors about your killed daughter. People made cruel prank calls to the Martinkos’ [pronounced in episode as "Marinko"] home ’cause they thought it would just be funny. And so when Janet answered the phone, she heard laughing as the other person on the line said things like, “Mother? It’s Michelle.” 

Em: [gasps] Oh my god. That’s so cruel. 

Christine: I hope that person to this day thinks about that. 

Em: I hope they got hit by a bus, for sure. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I do. 

Christine: I hope they still are like, “I f– That was fucked up,” because– 

Em: Yeah, I hope they lose sleep over that. That’s so fucking insane. 

Christine: Yeah, me too. Me too. Nearly a year after Michelle’s death, a man named Dennis Lee McKee was convicted for breaking into a Cedar Rapids home and threatening to kill the children in the home before raping their mother at knifepoint. 

Em: What? 

Christine: Yes. Dennis committed that crime in November 1979, a month before Michelle’s murder. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So he had committed that crime a month before Michelle’s murder. Now he was being convicted about a year later. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: A, a year after the murder, just to clarify. 

Em: Got it. 

Christine: Many suspected that he may have killed Michelle, and police did investigate him as a suspect, but that seemed to be another dead end. 

Em: I don’t think that was him, which is– 

Christine: Yeah, it– 

Em: Like I have nothing to go off of– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –but, but it feels like the crime before Michelle would have been the escalation after Michelle. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Like– 

Christine: It feels, it feels– And Michelle’s feels more– 

Em: Personal. 

Christine: –p– one-on-one, targeted. Yeah. 

Em: Like 29 sta– 29 stab wounds? 

Christine: Like breaking into a home? 

Em: Like that was– Someone hated her. 

Christine: And also I don’t believe she was assau– sexually assaulted, which like it seems like was the– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: – like the se– The other crime was to rape the woman and threaten to kill the kids, but I don’t– He didn’t kill anyone in that house. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: So I guess she technically would have been an escalation, right? ’Cause he– 

Em: Oh, I guess so. But they’re two– They’re totally different crimes. 

Christine: But they’re totally different MOs. Yeah, it’s a completely different crime. So it doesn’t necessarily– 

Em: I think it was that boyfriend. I think it– ’Cause– 

Christine: Yeah, I think that’s a much better– much more realistic option at this point. 

Em: Like being angry that she broke up with him and just stabbing the shit out of her? Like– 

Christine: And it feels very, um– What’s that word? Uh, Murphy’s Law– Is that Murphy’s Law? 

Em: Mur– 

Christine: No. Occam’s Razor. Occam’s Razor. 

Em: Oh okay. 

Christine: Both I guess apply oftentimes, but, um, like the simplest solution– simplest answer is oftentimes what it is. 

Em: Which is what last week’s was too. 

Christine: That’s right. Yes, exactly. Very good point. So people thought maybe that this guy had something to do with it, and, um, he was another dead end. So the case went cold. And it basically haunted residents that this had never been solved and that it just– 

Em: Jesus Christ. 

Christine: People had to keep just going on like nothing had happened. Unfortunately, Albert Martinko, her father, passed away in 1995 and then Janet in 1998. So Michelle’s surviving friends and family honored her memory each year with a graveside vigil on the anniversary of her death. They remembered all the good things about her like her charismatic laugh, what Kurt called “the Michelle smile,” which was just like– She had a very distinct and happy smile. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Years passed without answers until 2006 when a cold case detective announced that he had ha– identified and collected the killer’s blood– 

Em: Ooh! 

Christine: –from evidence stored in the case files for 27 years. 

Em: [to a dramatic melody] ♪ Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-dun. ♪♪ 

Christine: [applause] The blood was discovered on Michelle’s dress and on the gearshift column in the car where she had been killed. And it contained a complete DNA profile. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Isn’t that beautiful? 

Em: Bing, bing, bang. 

Christine: In 1979, they collected this evidence, not knowing that one day we’d be able to be– figure out the person’s one in a bajillion identity based on that little drop of blood. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: It’s amazing to me. I just– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: I can’t wait in 30 years, 10 years, 5 years to see what people have developed that can– 

Em: What’s the next thing? Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Michelle’s hands were covered in defensive wounds. Investigators had initially suspected she had been robbed or raped, but none of Michelle’s cash was stolen. There was no evidence of physical trauma related to rape in her autopsy. One detective said, “You have to assume that pretty much any motive you can think of was a possibility and that Michelle decided she wasn’t gonna allow that to happen. She fought.” So essentially, whether this person was planning to rape her, rob her, just kill her, she fought back. So whatever was the purpose, they did know that she, you know, defended herself. 

Em: Good job, girl. 

Christine: Yeah. The attacker had definitely been injured in the fight, leaving behind this evidence, this blood, that detectives didn’t know about in 1979 when j– the judicial system itself was still seven years away from the first use of DNA evidence in criminal court. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: The cold case detective collected DNA samples from as many people he could reasonably consider that may be involved with the case to match them with this sample they got. Andy and Kurt – both of them: finally exonerated. Kurt was the friend at the mall. Andy was the loony ex-boyfriend. 

Em: Oh shit. 

Christine: Both were exo– Yeah. Both were exonerated, ending what Kurt said was a decades-long nightmare. 

Em: Yeah, I ca– I can’t imagine being accused of something like that and not having done it. 

Christine: And having been the last person to see her and being like, “Oh man, I watched her walk to her car and then mur–“ 

Em: Even like imagine every time you make a new friend and you have to warn them, it’s like– 

Christine: Ugh! 

Em: –“Just so you know, I look like a serious person of interest.” 

Christine: “If you google me, I’ll be a suspect or a person of interest in this.” Yeah. Ooh boy. Good point. So he said– He called it a decades-long nightmare. So they were finally exonerated. Um, and his name had often been mentioned in Janet’s diary entries about her daughter’s murder, and so it was just really hard for Kurt to be considered a suspect for so long when he really was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and being a good friend and walking her to the door, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: He said he had been consumed by guilt over parting ways with Michelle at the exit that night, and he wished he had walked her to her car. You know, woulda, coulda, shoulda. Janelle said she wished she could personally apologize to Andy for outwardly believing that he had done this. Like she had to go back and tell the ex like, “I’m sorry I thought you were involved. I–“ 

Em: That would be an awkward conversation. 

Christine: It– Really awkward. Really awkward. 

Em: But also like– 

Christine: He’s still an asshole. He was still an abusive guy. 

Em: Yeah, she, she had a justified reason to think it. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: I guess. I don’t know if– 

Christine: At least to, to not like him. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: After reviewing the case and pursuing leads for ten years– So that started in ’06. Now it’s 2015. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: The detective finally decided to pass it on to someone new, and, by then, DNA technology in 2015 was even more advanced. And the– Isn’t it crazy we’re almost ten y– or, uh, yeah, ten years away from that now? 2015. 

Em: That’s wild. 

Christine: Yeah. By then, DNA technology was even more advanced, and the new detective partnered with a genomics lab to create a possible profile of the murderer using the DNA. And so they put this together. I find this so amazing. They put together a profile of somebody: a white man with blond hair and blue eyes. But they were missing a lot of details like his age. So they released several images with different hairstyles, facial features, and age progressions. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Um, and the detective said in an interview that they took calls about “every blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy that ever walked the face of the Earth and stepped foot in Iowa.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Jesus Christ. 

Christine: Which was another dead end. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Then the case remained cold until 2018 when the notorious Golden State Killer, who seems to have like opened the floodgates for so many of these stories– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –was arrested after investigators found him using genetic genealogy. So the detective leading Michelle’s case read an article, which always seemed to have happened in this situation, on the arrest and decided he would try the same method to pursue Michelle’s killer. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: So the investigative team submitted the suspect’s DNA to a public database. I don’t know if it was GEDmatch or what, but it connected them to a woman in Washington state– 

Em: Hell yeah, brother. 

Christine: –who happened to be a distant cousin to the suspect! 

Em: [to a dramatic melody] ♪ Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-dun. ♪♪ 

Christine: Beautiful. Then they spent months building a family tree toward the suspect and tracked down family members across the country on social media and even gravestones. This– 

Em: That would have been my dr– If, if we ever quit the podcast– 

Christine: If, if, if we– We would– This is my dream job. 

Em: All I wanna do is build– You know I love ancestry, and you know I love family trees. All I would wanna do is build family trees for the police. 

Christine: You know how– 

Em: For cold cases? Are you kidding me? 

Christine: –involved I would be? Can we just do that on the side? 

Em: Yeah! Can we– 

Christine: Could somebody help us do that on the side? ’Cause you and I would be an unstoppable force, I think. 

Em: I would f– I would be a free intern to be able to c– solve a crime like that. 

Christine: The way that we fixate, the way that we fixate so aggressively and have such intense web sleuthing skills, I feel like we would– 

Em: Between your everything and my building a family tree– 

Christine: No. No, no. But yeah, I really think we’d be– make a powerhouse, so if somebody knows how to do that– I’ve tried. I’ve tried to join some like volunteer groups– 

Em: Mm! 

Christine: –but I feel like I’ve never really quite got the hang of it. I don’t really know how– 

Em: Maybe you can embroider something for them. 

Christine: [laughs] I know. I’m like, “W– How do I insert myself? I don’t know how.” 

Em: “How do I stitch a family tree together for you?” 

Christine: Wouldn’t that be nice? “Hey, I can put it on my Cricut machine. Does anyone need it in vinyl?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So the suspect’s relatives– Imagine getting this call over in Washington – you’re a distant cousin to a murderer from decades ago. Uh, so the suspect’s relatives provided DNA samples to aid the investigation, and finally the search was narrowed down to Manchester, Iowa, which was a small town roughly an hour from Cedar Rapids. Brothers Jerry, Kenneth, and Donald Burns grew up together in Manchester. Donald moved to Davenport, Iowa, while his brothers still lived in Manchester where they were well-liked business owners. The detectives followed Kenneth to lunch at a golf club and collected his drinking straw once he left. They then staked out Donald’s house in Davenport and picked his toothbrush out of the trash. See, I’ll do that too. 

Em: This would have been the most fun job in the whole world. You and I– 

Christine: I was gonna say, I’ll do that part. Yeah, we’ll b– happily go through a dumpster. 

Em: Can you im– Can you imagine us pretending to go to like a golf outing and just– [laughs] Like just– 

Christine: And we would dress up. 

Em: Totally. 

Christine: We would do the part. Can someone make a show about this? I would be– I would take it so seriously. I’m not fucking around. 

Em: I would actually love a game, uh, a game show where people try to collect evidence from other contestants without them knowing. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: Like, like sneak a hair sample. Sneak a– Uh, grab their straw. Grab their– You know? 

Christine: Yeah. I feel like it would get, uh, problematic really fast, but I’ve– I’ll s– 

Em: No, we have, we have legal deal with that. 

Christine: No problems for us. 

Em: No problems for me. 

Christine: Not our pro– not our problem. 

Em: Not for me. 

Christine: So after they did this, the toothbrush and the golf club straw, neither brother matched the suspect’s DNA sample. 

Em: [sighs] Hm. 

Christine: So they followed Jerry to lunch in Manchester, the third brother. And they collected DNA from the straw he drank after he left. It was– M-Maybe that’s the burger place. Maybe he went to the burger place you went to, and that’s why they make you wait an hour. 

Em: Mm! 

Christine: ’Cause they’re like, “Actually, the police might need your DNA. Can you sit here for a minute and drink in this straw?” 

Em: I– You know– And they got a lot of my DNA because I left half that burger on the table. 

Christine: [laughs] Exactly. 

Em: I went, “I gotta go.” 

Christine: Exactly. So they followed him to lunch. They collected DNA from the straw he drank with, and it was a fucking DNA match. They found him. They found him at lunch. 

Em: I love when people sleuth to get an answer. 

Christine: Can’t believe it. On December 19th, 2018, which was the 39th anniversary of Michelle’s murder, the lead detective walked into the business Jerry owned and asked him if he knew Michelle Martinko. Imagine– 

Em: Imagine the stomach drop. 

Christine: –avoiding that name for 39 years after you did something terrible, and now somebody walks face-to-face with you and says, “Do you know this person?” Oh. 

Em: Did he just fess up immediately? He just go, “Yep, that’s me.” 

Christine: He said– You want to know what he said? “No–“ 

Em: Did he speak in riddles? Oh. “No.” Just “no”? 

Christine: He said, “No, and I never heard of her.” And they said, “Huh. That’s weird. Give me a cheek swab.” So he gave them one. And then he told Jerry that he knew the DNA would match– The policeman said this to Jerry and the– and asked Jerry once again if he knew about Michelle or her murder. And instead of saying no, he said, “I was not there that night.” 

Em: That’s the most Josh Duggar thing I’ve ever heard in my life. 

Christine: I know! I know. I know. 

Em: “What did you find on my c– on my computer? Hopefully, not child porn on all of these discs.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “Uh, okay. Well, we did.” 

Christine: “I hope you didn’t open the folder called ‘taxes’ that’s really actually explicit material.” Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] 

Christine: Um, so they asked if he knew Michelle Martinko: “No.” “Well, we know that this DNA is going to match from the blood found at the murder scene.” “I wasn’t there that night. I never met Michelle.” It was true that police failed to find any connection between Michelle and Jerry, like social, business, or otherwise. So without a connection, it would be difficult to establish a motive, and it was obvious Jerry wasn’t prepared to confess. But– 

Em: And he might have really not known her name. 

Christine: That’s true. Right, like maybe he never met her technically. And he was arrested that day for Michelle’s murder, but this would be like a difficult case to prove. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Basically, they had his blood and DNA, but that was the only real thing linking him to the crime. And while they could prove it was his blood, you know– 

Em: It could have come from somewhere else. She could have– 

Christine: Right. There– Like it– Ex– 

Em: She could have bumped into him when he had a scratch. 

Christine: Somebody could have tr– Some attorney could try to twist it, you know, and say it wasn’t– He wasn’t the killer. So Jerry went on trial in February 2020, and his defense called a molecular biologist as a witness who testified that it was a “distinct possibility” that Jerry’s DNA could have gotten on Michelle’s dress and car interior by “transfer.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Jerry and his family had spent time in the mall before, so his defense attorney argued that Michelle may have picked up Jerry’s DNA in the food court or someone else inside. 

Em: I mean, like as a very sick person right now, one sneeze and my DNA is all over somebody. 

Christine: But it’s not your blood. 

Em: That’s true. But– 

Christine: On the gearshift of your car. 

Em: Mm. Just trying to play lawyer. 

Christine: I know. I mean, yeah– 

Em: I mean, I still think he did it, but– 

Christine: But the possibility was just so unlikely. Like okay, yeah. His blood got on her sweater– on her jacket, on her car gearshift a– 

Em: Right. Especially without her noticing, and– 

Christine: A– Yeah, I– And, and then she was stabbed? 

Em: Yeah. Exactly. 

Christine: After– And nobody else’s blood got on her? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So it just seemed too unlikely. Like yeah, sure. Maybe you bled all over the food court, and she bumped into it with her white rabbit jacket, but I doubt it. Okay? Um, after just three hours of deliberation, the jury declared Jerry Burns guilty of murder in the first degree, and he received the maximum punishment in Iowa, which was life in prison without parole. 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: Now Jerry’s family was shocked because they didn’t believe he was capable of the brutal attack, and his brother and daughter still say – imagine the daughter – say they have no idea and have no b-belief that he’s capable of this. So I don’t know. You know, maybe– 

Em: Maybe it was a fluke. 

Christine: Maybe? I don’t know. But Michelle’s family believes that Jerry was the killer. And when police told him– told the family that they had made an arrest, Janelle and John recalled “whooping and hollering” as– just out of excitement and just closure, you know. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: The conviction and sentencing marked the end of a 41-year nightmare that haunted Michelle’s family, friends, and all of Cedar Rapids. And with the case finally solved, everyone who knew Michelle could focus solely on her memory and everything about her that made her special to them. One friend said that her life wasn’t defined by the way that she died but by the way that she lived. She was very fun-loving, studious, kind. She was a gifted singer with a beautiful voice, uh, she– just a beautiful musician. And her friends and family still remember her for, you know, all the good she brought to the world. 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: But that’s the story. So, you know, no longer a cold case, but, um, still some, still some debate– 

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –over it. 

Em: Yeah, that’s a tricky one. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Em: Wow. Well, how do you feel about our– 

Christine: Merry Christmas. 

Em: How do you feel about our Christmas episode, Christine? 

Christine: I know. I really did the usual, huh? Where I just bummed everybody out. 

Em: Yeah. But you’ve done it like 411 times. So. 

Christine: I’m getting good. Finally. 

Em: [laughs] “Finally.” Oy. We’ve got– Our next one is our New Year’s one. Does that mean that we’ll be in 2025? 

Christine: Let me look. No, our next one is the 29th. 

Em: Ooh. 

Christine: So it’ll be our New Year’s Eve-ish. 

Em: Interesting. Interesante, as I say. 

Christine: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 

Em: Um, so we’ve got one more in 2024. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: Okay, that’s fine. Before I– 

Christine: Okay. We don’t have to freak out yet. 

Em: No. No, no, no, no. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: But bring your paper bags next time to breathe into because I’ll panic a little bit, and I’ll go– I’ll contemplate the next year of my life. 

Christine: Yeah. I’m gonna bring a barf bag. I’ll try to bring something more than wood glue to drink next time. 

Em: [laughs] Please, yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Uh, if you would like to hear us blabber on even more, you can head on over to Patreon. 

Christine: We are at patreon.com/atwwdpodcast. You can also go to andthatswhywedrink.com/live for tickets to our live tour. You can go to atwwdmerch.com to see our rotating seasonal merch that we update pretty regularly. We have some fun stuff on there that we don’t promote nearly as often as we should. You can also find us @atwwdpodcast on all of our socials. 

Em: And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink. 

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