E455 Halloween Boy Math and Jerry Springer Ghosts

TOPICS: 6304 BERYL ROAD HAUNTING, SHEILA VON WIESE-MACK

---

It’s Episode 455 and we are just fish in a haunted barrel. Today Em brings us to their home state for the 6304 Beryl Road Haunting complete with evil tumbleweeds. Then Christine covers the murder of Sheila von Wiese-Mack which has us breaking out our police lights. And is the Grinch our new Roman Empire? …and that’s why we drink!

---

Transcript

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]

[intro music] 

Em: [singing to the tune of “Toccata in D Minor” by Johann Sebastian Bach] ♪ Nuh-nuh-nuh nuh-nuh-nuh nuh / Nuh– ♪ 

Christine: [deep, low voice] Mwahahaha! 

Em: ♪ Nuh-nuh-nuh nuh-nuh-nuh nuh ♪♪ [speaking] I don’t know how the rest of the song goes. [chuckles] Just that one line. 

Christine: Is that even– What is that? 

Em: Isn’t that the– 

Christine: Oh, that’s– Oh, on the or– pipe– on the or– pipe organ. 

Em: Vampires. Yeah. I don’t know. I call– 

Christine: [singing to the tune of “Toccata in D Minor” by Johann Sebastian Bach] ♪ Nuh-nuh-nuh nuh ♪♪ 

Em: I call it “Vampires.” 

Christine: I think that’s the only– That’s all of it, I think. 

Em: Oh, no. [singing] ♪ Nuh-nuh-nuh ♪♪ I thought there was like a second– There’s a bit. 

Christine: A bridge? 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: A key change? [laughs] 

Em: I thought there was like a guest star that comes in on the third bit on– 

Christine: Oh god, I can’t even st– handle it. 

Em: It’s a tight three. Um, anyway. 

Christine: It's a tight three. Okay. 

Em: That’s what I thought. 

Christine: Well, I’m not trying– I’m still over here trying to get a fucking Halloween background because I came o– like a fucking loser showed up without any Halloween– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, and then I tried to pull my little like raven over and knocked a bunch of my books off the shelf. So, it’s like I can’t even– And then I tried to put a background on, and it’s only giving me like inside a lake or inside a rainbow. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And I’m like, “None of that is the vibe for today.” So Em’s really prepared with caution tape. Um– 

Em: And spider webs. 

Christine: Oh my god, even the fucking pictures are askew? 

Em: Mhm. Yeah. 

[Behind Em, yellow caution tape makes an “X” on the wall. Two pictures in frames are hung crookedly, and fake spiderwebs are draped across the wall. A magenta light glows from the bottom right corner.] 

Christine: Wait for the video, people. I want to change it like this for a second. How do I make it just– No, not– [chuckles] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –not– 

Em: Hey! 

Christine: [laughs] Bye, Em. Um, how do I make it you? Hold on. Oh, shit. That’s not how– 

Em: [singing] ♪ Make it me ♪♪ [speaking] That’s the th– 

Christine: Make it– 

Em: That’s the third out of the tight three. That’s– 

Christine: Oh, is it? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Well, wow. Okay, now I remember. Okay. Well, now– 

Em: [laughs] [singing] ♪ Nuh-nuh-nuh / Make it me ♪♪ [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] [singing] ♪ Make it three-ee-ee ♪♪ Okay. Well, fuck my life. It’s not working. Wait. 

[Christine’s video disappears, and Em’s video fills the whole screen.] 

Em: Oh my god. Now, it– Help. I feel like we’re in a f– 

Christine: There you are. 

Em: There we– I am. Oh, uh, also– 

Christine: What’s happening? Why is it pink? 

Em: I– ’Cause I have a little light. I was supposed– 

Christine: That’s so cool. 

Em: The whole thing was supposed to be purple, but this part is the window and so it’s– They’re fighting. 

Christine: Well, I mean, to be fair, it’s my fault ’cause I– Like it’s, it’s supposed to be contained. I just like made you full screen, but– 

[Christine’s video reappears, placing Em’s video on the right side of the screen.] 

Em: You, you– The movie magic was ruined, actually. 

Christine: I’m sorry. 

Em: But would you like to– 

Christine: This is the behind the scenes studio tour of Em’s Haunted Manor. 

Em: [laughs] It– Uh, would you like to pick a color? [Em holds up a remote with colorful buttons.] 

Christine: [gasps] I love these. Oh, I love these. I’ll never get old of these or tired of these. Um– 

Em: Here, we’ll turn it this way so you get the full color. [Em turns their camera slightly so the colored light is more visible.] 

Christine: It’s a little remote. There’s something about a remote for a col– for a light bulb instead of an app, you know? 

Em: I know. Multi-access. Yeah. 

Christine: Mm. I like a purple, but I know it’s already kind of a purpley, but like– 

Em: Well, I was trying to do spooky colors. Orange doesn’t really do much right now. [the light behind Em changes to an orangey red color] It doesn’t feel– It feels like I’m in a pumpkin. You know what I mean? 

Christine: And like– [chuckles] And, uh– 

Em: Then there’s green. That’s kind of spooky. [the light changes to a bright green] 

Christine: Green looks spooky for sure. 

Em: Slimy. 

Christine: And I think the red with the caution tape is like a little true crimey, you know? 

[the light changes to a bright red] 

Em: Oh, I’ll make that for your, for your side, for your half. 

Christine: Yeah, that feels right. Okay, good. So, yeah, I think green or purple or something is good for the Halloween– 

Em: Okay. 

[the light changes back to bright green] 

Christine: Ahh! I do like the green. That looks good. 

[the light changes back to magenta] 

Em: You do? That’s better than the purple, you think? I know– 

Christine: Yeah. I think so. 

[the light changes back to bright green] 

Em: Okay, ’cause purple is the, the, the main, I guess, second– is the secondary, and green is the tertiary for Halloween, right? 

Christine: Oh, it’s a perfect three or whatever the fuck you– a tight three? 

Em: What am I with threes today? 

Christine: I don’t know. You are having a problem today. 

Em: Um, how about this? How about we keep it at, uh, we keep it at green for opening statements and then, um, for purple for spooky? 

Christine: [laughs] Opening statements. Oh my god. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Okay. Uh, rebuttal. I don’t know any other words. Um– Perfect. 

Em: Well, I was going to tell you, Christine. I’m, I’m actually glad that– Basically what happened is Christine– 

Christine: I’m glad that I’m, I’m here with you today. I’m glad you came to my office today. 

Em: [laughs] Well, no, Christine showed– [chuckles] during my office hours. Christine showed up and looked at my background and went, “What the fuck’s going on?” And I went, “It’s our Halloween episode.” So everyone, happy Halloween, everybody, and merry Samhain. Um, but I’m very– 

Christine: Yay! 

Em: I’m very glad that on your end, um, you did not know that because I also– 

Christine: [laughs] No clue. 

Em: –I also had a costume prepared, and there was a malfunction. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, and so I’m– 

Christine: Oh, shit. Now, then I would have looked like a real fool. 

Em: Well, you want to hold your words there? Because let me finish my sentence. [laughs] Um, you might still look like the smartest person in the room. There’s– I, I thought about– Here was the thing. I said a while ago when– I think when we first got Hank ’cause it’s, it’s baby’s first Halloween, um– 

Christine: Aww. That’s special. 

Em: And I was thinking about dressing him up as “Hankenstein.” So then I was like– 

Christine: Yes, very good. 

Em: –“I’ll be Frankenstein.” Or I thought about being Bride of Hankenstein. I thought that was funny, um, but– Whatever. 

Christine: That’s fun. That’s funny. You– I mean, you have the white dress from when you were a lady in white so it could have really worked. Actually, I think you gave that to our manager, Maggie, so never mind. [laughs] 

Em: She did like it a little too much. 

Christine: Actually, you didn’t give it to her. She like took it out of the green room and was like, “Can I have this?” And you were like, “Sure?” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. She definitely still has it. Although, now I’m starting to see why there’s so many women in white that haunt the area because a white dress is so versatile, you know? Um– 

Christine: I guess so. Like it’s really making the rounds already, you know? 

Em: Well, I thought, “Okay, I’m going to do something Frankenstein themed.” And so I ordered a Halloween costume, um, and– This is why I hate men. Let’s start there. Um– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Go off, king. 

Em: [laughs] If you follow the internet at all, if you are at all chronically online, online like I am, you know that there is the trope that if you get a man who’s an ins– your Instacart shopper, you just cancel the fucking order and try again until you get a woman. Um– 

Christine: It’s almost like– It’s like become, yeah, a whole meme of like posting the back and forths between your male Instacart driver who’s like, “Is this what you want?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like, “No, idiot.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] To a point where now a bunch of– for, I’m sure, more nefarious reasons with Uber, but on Instacart, a lot of men now have a woman’s name as their name on their account. 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: So that way people won’t cancel their order. 

Christine: No. 

Em: But, but then if I get like, “Britney gave you bananas when you asked for batteries,” it’s like, “I know a man is Britney. I know that.” 

Christine: [screams] “Britney. Don’t fuck with me, Britney.” 

Em: Well, a man, uh, was my Instacart shopper for my Halloween gift– 

Christine: No. 

Em: –for my Halloween costume. [chuckles] A gift to you, I suppose. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, my gift. What did he do with my gift? 

Em: Well, I asked for Frankenstein, and you would think a grown ass man would know what Frankenstein is. Uh– 

Christine: Please. 

Em: I didn’t even get a note at all that said that it was out of stock. I don’t know what happened. Do you– Hone– 

Christine: Is, is this a Spirit Halloween situation– 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: –or what’s like the, the venue? Okay. 

Em: Spirit Hal– The venue. Yeah. 

Christine: So this man is going to a Spirit Halloween. 

Em: You would think there’s Frankenstein or at least– I would imagine if you’re doing the, the boy math of it all, it’s like, “Well, there’s no costume, but here’s like green face paint or something.” 

Christine: Right. Like, “Here, put something on.” Wait. So, so– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –so, so, so he already knows he’s going– He’s not going to like Target. He’s going to Spirit Halloween. So, he knows this is like a costume presumably– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –or at least, you know, if you put two and two together,– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –um, you’re not shopping for batteries or bananas. 

Em: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: You’re shopping for a costume. So, what– So, you instructed, “Please find a Frankenstein costume,” or d– was there one in– that you like checked and you were like, “This is what I want.” 

Em: I put “Frankenstein,” and then I even put, ’cause I was afraid it’d be a man, I put like, “What are your other options?” And there was like other Frankenstein op– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Like I– Like– 

Christine: Like to replace it or whatever. 

Em: There should have been no confusion. Do you want me to tell you or do you want me to show you? ’Cause it, it did arrive. I just decided I’m not fucking wearing it. But do you want me to– Do you want me to, do you want me to put it on? 

Christine: I, I kind of want you to put it on. 

Em: Okay, please. 

Christine: Actually, I fully want you to put it on. I don’t, I don’t know why I’m pretending. 

Em: Just, just remember the plan was Frankenstein. Just remember that. Please hold. 

Christine: And now, now not to be that guy. We’re talking Franken– He didn’t pull like a wise-ass thing of like, “Oh, I got you Dr. Frankenstein, not Frankenstein’s monster, did he?” 

Em: I, I wish. 

Christine: ’Cause that would have been really, really like, “Well, actually,” you know. Um, okay, so we’re talking the green guy. Yeah, okay. 

Em: We’re talking the green guy. Um– 

Christine: I’m ready. 

Em: I’m gonna put it on. Jack, elevator music. Ooh! Transylvania vampire music. 

Christine: Ahh! 

[bats fly across the screen, screeching, leading into an organ playing the first part of “Toccata in D Minor” by Johann Sebastian Bach] 

[the And That’s Why We Drink logo appears on the screen after the bats cross the screen, looking like it’s on a VHS tape] 

[white noise fills the screen, buzzing, fading back to Em and Christine] 

Christine: Can I open? 

Em: Yeah. I’m a condom. 

[Em’s head pokes out of a golden rectangular costume. “Stallion” is written in large black capital letters across the top.] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Stand up. Show the class. What the actual fuck is going on? 

Em: [points to the words at the top of their costume] Stallion! 

Christine: What kind of– 

Em: What does it say? 

Christine: What the f– 

[More words appear across the costume in black capital letters.] 

Em: “For the 1% of men–“ 

Christine: “For the 1% of men 8 inches or larger.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Okay. It doesn’t– Okay. What? Why? 

Em: I– 

Christine: Please– 

Em: What– 

Christine: –your head doesn’t even fit out of it. [laughs] 

Em: Ay-o, that’s what she said. [laughs] 

Christine: Okay. No, this– Ohh, shit. This is what I got to do now. I’m so sorry to do this, but this is the only way. Hold on. It’s the only way. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Okay, let me see now. Okay, it says “Stallion.” Okay, it’s like literally a wra– a condom wrapper. Let’s be clear about that. And it says– It’s gold, and in big black letters– It’s a full body costume. Em’s head sticking out the top. Uh, “A stallion–“ It says, “For the 1% of men 8 inches or larger. XXXL.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Is that all that’s on there? 

Em: Uh, I don’t know. 

Christine: And then you just put your arm– Oh, here we go. “Lubricated lay–“ with a Y– “laytex.” And I don’t know if that was supposed to be a joke or if that’s just a typo. Oh my god, you look so sad. 

Em: So I’m a broken condom. That’s– Or at least a broken wrapper. So I’ve been used. I’m used goods. 

Christine: [laughs] A broken– You’re a used condom. You’re literally a used condom wrapper, which is even worse. A used condom wrapper. Like, why? Why is that even a costume? Oh my god. This is good. Look, now you have a little background. 

Em: Who did this? 

Christine: A man, apparently. 

Em: Yeah. Who made this? Who said this should be an option at Spirit Halloween? 

Christine: I’m so delighted because Alexander and I are doing a, uh, uh, an episode on Halloween costumes this next week, and I haven’t done my research yet, and now I’m like– 

Em: Should I put a searing review for you? 

Christine: Literally only need reviews of this fucking bad boy. Uh, “Ordered Frankenstein costume, got used condom wrapper.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like what? How? Was there any note? There was no note. 

Em: No, you would think there’d at least be, “Sorry.” And this man– This is the worst. I was in my front yard. He hand-delivered this to me. And I, I– And he did it with such a confidence I didn’t even look in the bag. 

Christine: Did he have to take a picture like the DoorDash? You know, the DoorDash gremlins subreddit? [laughs] 

Em: Yes, so somewhere– Somewhere there’s a picture of me proudly holding it, thinking I got my Frankenstein outfit. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And then I went inside, and I looked in, and I went, “Why is it gold?” And I went, “Oh, the wrapper’s kinda crazy.” LOL, it was literally a fucking gold wrapper. Um– 

Christine: I am out– I am out of my mind right now. I don’t even know what to make of this situation. This is like one of– This, Em, like this is where you have to literally screen record and post this on TikTok because I feel like it’s just unbelievable, you know? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like screen record the order because it’s like, “This is what I did. What could possibly go wrong? And how wrong could it possibly go? And here’s what I got.” Like that’s– Honestly, I thought you were going to show me like– 

Em: Yeah, anything else. 

Christine: –literally anything but this. Yeah. 

Em: Anything else. A werewolf. 

Christine: Anything. 

Em: Yeah, something. This is– 

Christine: I’ve never even seen this. 

Em: I didn’t know it existed. Th-this is the scariest part of my Halloween. 

Christine: It’s terrifying. 

Em: Do I wear it the whole time? What do I do? 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] What do I do? 

Christine: That’s what she said– That’s what he said. 

Em: I mean, technically, I’m in a costume. It’s not even aesthetic for the sh– for the cam, you know? 

Christine: It’s, it’s like– It helps that the green light is reflecting– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –so it looks sort of like a martian or like– 

Em: [singing the ending notes of “Defying Gravity”] ♪ Ah-ah-ah-ahh ♪♪ 

Christine: Yeah, there you go. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You look either Wicked or, um, Frankenstein or an alien or a green condom wrapper. 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, you’re welcome. [laughs] 

Em: I mean, I guess I’ll just– It’s too la– Putting it on was a real– I’m sure– [laughs] I’m sure others have said something similar about putting condoms on. 

Christine: I mean– [laughs] Putting it on, yeah. It’s a little, It’s a little too small for me, if you know what I mean. Um– 

Em: Yeah, I– Actually this XXXL is just not cutting it. 

Christine: It’s just for the 1%. Um– 

Em: [laughs] I hate it here. 

Christine: And I’ve never seen anything quite so like just mind-numbingly stupid as a, as a replacement for– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –a common item. Like a re– 

Em: My f– 

Christine: –like for a spirit Halloween, like a monster, a Frankenstein? 

Em: My first thought was, “Who made this?” And my second thought was, “Who bought this?” Like who, who said– Anyway, we’re– I’m going in circles here. I’m just like so over– And it was right before we were going to record too ’cause I was like, “I ca–“ 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “I don’t have time to fix this. This is–“ 

Christine: We will literally lose our minds to madness if we try to find the logic here. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: But I keep trying. I’m like, “Condom. Does that mean something in a different langu–?” Like I’m literally trying, but I don’t think there’s a reason. Unless anybody else out there has some sort of fantastical explanation here. 

Em: I– It’s, it’s b-beyond me. Um, do you– 

Christine: It’s out of control. 

Em: Do– 

Christine: I, I feel like I should order a costume now and just see what happens. 

Em: Can you be the spermicidal lube and then together we make magic or what? 

Christine: [laughs] It does say it’s a “lubricated laytex,” so– 

Em: I see. Maybe you can be an IUD? 

Christine: Oh, cute. 

Em: And then we’re like really protected over here, you know? 

Christine: Oh my god, you’re right. And also like I’m in Kentucky, so I could be like K-Y Jelly or something, you know? 

Em: [gasps] Now, stop it right there. 

Christine: Just saying. Maybe I wear– Maybe I wear like a Smuckers costume, and everyone’s like, “What are you?” And I’m like, “I’m K-Y Jelly. Get it?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I put like a Kentu– I put like– Ooh, I’m like a, a jelly, and then I also am holding or I’m like wearing a cowboy hat and like have a horse, and I’m like, “I’m K– Kentu– K-Y Jelly.” 

Em: Oh, I see. Yes. No, you should– 

Christine: I’m like Kentucky Jelly. 

Em: Yeah. 100%. And so you– 

Christine: That’s fucking dumb, Christine. 

Em: No, you’ve just found a way to insert a cowboy into your fantasies again. That’s just what happened. 

Christine: I know. I can’t stop myself. I really can’t. 

Em: [laughs] Um, can you hear this? [Em fidgets in their costume.] I’m just– For the sound. [laughs] Just– Should I take it off or is it going to bother everybody? 

Christine: I just like– I don’t hear anything except I just see you going like– [Christine mimics Em’s movements, shrugging her shoulders repeatedly.] 

Em: Okay. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Well, ’cause to me it’s so loud because it’s a wrapper. 

Christine: Okay. J– Why don’t you take it off? We’ve gotten– You look, you look sad. I mean, you look sad in like a pitiful way. [laughs] 

Em: There’s nothing sadder. 

Christine: You look like you’re poking out of– Like I know you’re– It literally– I’m not kidding, it could be– 

Em: I look like a penis head? 

Christine: You look like a penis head with a, with a– like a weird amount of pubes on the top of it, you know– 

Em: I probably– [Em cranes their neck higher out of their costume.] 

Christine: –on the part, on the part– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Oh, no. You’re a show– You’re a grower, not a shower. Um– 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] Okay. So, you don’t like this is what you’re saying? 

Christine: I, I was gonna say it could be like a Lays bag, but then I went, “No, it literally looks like a condom wrapper. There’s not really a way around it.” 

Em: I’ve never even touched a, a human– like, like a real human one. [laughs] 

Christine: A human one? Yikes. [laughs] 

Em: Wait a minute. You touched a real condom wra– This is the most intimate I’ve ever been with a condom wrapper. I’ll tell you that. 

Christine: You for sure touched a condom wrapper. Like in those free ones they gave you at the health clinic? Or were you too scared? I was too scared. [laughs] 

Em: I don’t think I ever went– Oh, no, I have touched a condom, but it was for educational purposes only, yeah. 

Christine: I was gonna say, didn’t your mother teach you how to– Didn’t your mother teach you how to use? [laughs] No, but she literally did. 

Em: Yeah. The only other time I’ve touched a condom is in front of my mom. So, it’s been, it’s been a bad record over here. Um. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. And now in front of all of our many listeners. So. 

Em: I hope everyone’s happy. 

Christine: We are, by the way, really happy. 

Em: Just, just for the still for Megan ’cause I know she’s going to get one. 

[Em tilts their head to the side, smiling wildly and looking at the camera.] 

Christine: No, when I made it like big– Uh, wait, I have to make it big again so that you– Oh, that’s what she said. Hold on/ 

Em: Hey! 

Christine: Uh, there you go. Now you’re more in the, in the frame. 

[Christine’s video disappears again, and Em’s video fills the screen.] 

Em: Growing! [Em cranes their head up out of the costume.] Now, talk about big. Stallion. [Em sits up taller so “Stallion” at the top of the costume can be seen.] Help me. 

Christine: That’s fucking insane. It’s when you lean forward and you can see the inside of the wrapper that it looks like deeply nuts. 

Em: [laughs, leaning forward and holding the neck of the costume down to see inside it] 

Christine: Like it– ’Cause it looks like it’s actually an open wrapper with like– 

[Christine’s video reappears, and Em’s video returns to the right side of the screen.] 

Christine: By the way, also that’s not even how condoms open. So condoms like you tear them. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: So it literally looks like you– The condom’s so big it like popped out of the fucking wrapper. [laughs] It– 

Em: [laughs] Like, like it was on a plane, and the air made it bust, you know? 

Christine: Yeah. Like it’s just too much, too much pressure. Um, so yeah. 

Em: Anyway. 

Christine: I feel like for your comfort’s sake– I mean, I’m loving it, so don’t do it on my behalf, but for your comfort’s sake– I– 

Em: I’m fine. I just want to make sure the sound isn’t getting fucked up. 

Christine: No, I don’t, I don’t hear anything except just laughter from– 

Em: Perfect. 

Christine: –my own mind. Yeah. 

Em: Excellent. Okay. Well, great. 

Christine: Wow. I’m so thrilled actually. Remember when I said I looked like an idiot? You’re right. You were right. 

Em: Yeah, ’cause you were like, “Oh, well, I look stupid.” And I went, “You fucking sit there.” 

Christine: “Hold that thought.” Yeah. 

Em: You sit pretty with your stupid little perfect Nutrafol hair and– 

Christine: Oopsie. And my, my neutral background and my– [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –my rainbow, uh, virtual background. Yeah. 

Em: No matter– This is maybe, um, a– I don’t know about PSA, but a, a gentle comfort to others that if you feel like your costume is stupid this year, nothing’s as dumb as this. 

Christine: Yeah. Don’t worry, it could be worse. And that’s what we’re here to tell you most weeks actually. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And, and that’s why we drink. I mean, this is really maybe one of my favorite reasons you’ve ever brought to the table as to why you drink. 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: Because it’s really excellent. 

Em: I would like this to be the gavel in the courtroom. This would– This should be the final straw for why you should never let men shop. I just– 

Christine: No, for real. 

Em: This is the PSA. 

Christine: You need to post this to TikTok for real or, or, or Megan or somebody. But like the, the, the expectation versus reality, whatever you want to call it, like it’s– This is probably one of the more jarring encounters I’ve had with this kind of experience. Wow. 

Em: Yeah. And if you’re a man and you think, “Maybe I should be an Instacart shopper,” heed my warning. This is what you have to be better than. Please be better than this. 

Christine: Just, just try a little bit. 

Em: Just try like a– for a second. Just like a little bit. 

Christine: Just be– 

Em: Something green would have made sense more than this. 

Christine: Google Frankenstein real quick. 

Em: [laughs] Read your phone. 

Christine: If you don’t know what it is, yeah. 

Em: I feel like he thought he was on a side quest and was like, “Go to– Just get whatever you want. Just go to Spirit.” And then this happened. Anyway. 

Christine: That’s crazy. And the fact that he wasn’t like, “Here, let me message you and check real quick.” 

Em: Yeah. He didn’t say, “Are you okay with this?” ’Cause he knew it was a no. Anyway, that’s why I drink. Why do you drink, Christine? 

Christine: Wow. And the fact that– Like the implication– I don’t want to talk about me. 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: I want to talk about this some more. My– The implication that this guy was like, “Oh, I know. I’ll tell them that they have an 8 inch dick. That’ll work.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like, what are you doing? Like of all choices. 

Em: It does soften the blow. Uh– 

Christine: It’s a fucking choice, though. You know? It’s like, “Wha–?” Okay. Anyway, um, s– yeah. Why do I drink? I mean, this is now all I’m going to think about today. Um, why do I drink? Uh, I don’t even remember. I had a reason. 

Em: What– Do you have plans to like without someone interfering with your plans? Did– Do you have a costume for Halloween? 

Christine: Oh, sure do. I don’t even get to make plans anymore. Leona has decided. She’s Pete the Cat this year. And I said, “Okay, pretty easy. Let’s do it.” Um, and I said, “Ooh, fun. I get to decide what to be,” and she said, “And you’ll be Grumpy Toad this time.” And I was like– 

Em: That fits though. 

Christine: Oh, god. Uh, so yeah, I’m Grumpy Toad. Um, I am kind of excited ’cause I do have a lot of like Grinch– Oh, that’s what I was going to talk about: The Grinch. Okay, so we found our way there. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Um, I, I do have a lot of Grinch-esque, um, accessories and apparel because I have a sick problem about The Grinch. Um– 

Em: Do you? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Let’s unpack that. 

Christine: And Alexander said that the other day. He said, “What do you mean?” And I said, “Well, you know me. I love The Grinch.” And I feel like I’m creating a Mandela effect by accident. 

Em: Yeah, you’re fucking crazy. What are you talking about? 

Christine: [laughs] He, he was like, “What do you mean?” Because I was shopping– Okay, so I got a, an email from ColourPop, and they were like, “Launching our new Grinch collab from Whoville.” And I was like, [gasps] “Holy shit.” And I showed my brother, and I said, “I’m buying this right now. It’s like $100. This is made for me.” And he was like, “Are you– Is this a, is this a bit? I don’t get it.” 

Em: [laughs] Right. 

Christine: And I was like, “What do you mean is this a bit? You know, that’s my favorite film.” And he was like, “It is?” And I like– I think he was just like, “I don’t–“ And then he actually said– This is, this is one of the like– I don’t even want– It wasn’t cruel, but it was definitely cold. And it was– 

Em: Oh. [chuckles] 

Christine: And it was also totally appropriate. He said to me, “I really don’t care about The Grinch,” and I we– [laughs] And I went, “Oh, I see. I thought this was a sibling thing where like we were both really amped about how ColourPop has this new drop.” And he was like, “I’m happy for you–“ 

Em: “That’s all you, babe.” 

Christine: "–but I want to make it so clear that this is not of interest to me.[unintelligible] “ 

Em: I feel like you– No wonder you sang The Who song so well in Christmas. 

Christine: Yeah. You know, I think something was there. 

Em: I guess it– 

Christine: And then I covered The Grinch as a crime story one year. 

Em: I know. I– It’s all coming together all of a sudden. 

Christine: And then every newsletter that Jess sends out at holiday time– 

Em: Coming together. 

Christine: Coming– [laughs, winking] 

Em: Sorry 

Christine: –every newsletter that Jess sends out during, uh, Christmas time, I always recommend The Grinch, but the ori– the 1960s version, people. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: The 30 minute version, the T– Made for TV one. That’s the only one I like, and I love it. I do kind of actually like the newer one– not the one, not the live action. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: I love Jim Carrey, but I am not a fan of that franchise of the Jim Carrey one. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I– It scares me. I don’t like it. 

Em: So what’s the newer one? I thought there was only two of them. 

Christine: No, there was an animated one with like um– I really liked it. I don’t know. 

Em: Like CGI? Like, like– 

Christine: No, it was animated. Um, let me see what year that was. 2018 they made a Grinch, and I thought it was pretty cute. It has like Benedict Cumberbatch as the Grinch. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: And I thought it was pretty cute, and Rashida Jones and, um, some other cool people. But I was watching that one time and I was like, “You guys, let’s watch The Grinch,” and my dad walked in the room– This was like a year ago. And he walks in the room, and he goes [loudly], “Who is this man?” And I was like, “Why are you shouting, first of all?” And then I was like, “Shut up. We’re watching The Grinch.” And he’s like, “I’ve never met this man in my life.” And I’m like, “Why are you even talking right now? Nobody’s met this man. What? Shut up.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So anyway, um, I got over that eventually. And then somebody stole my Grinch Christmas decorations last year, so I was pretty upset about that. But I’m re– I’m reclaiming all my Grinch love. Um, I remember re– one of my earliest memories is reading the entire Dr. Seuss collection like anthology– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –in a chair in my room like a weird German child, like sitting on a wooden chair and just like reading the entire anthology. And I remember thinking like, “Now, this is how a rhyme scheme is done. Thank you, Theodor Geisel.” He gets it. 

Em: Okay, great. Perfect. 

Christine: Yeah. And so I think that’s where this all began. And then The Grinch has just held a special place in my heart. And then now that it’s Grumpy Toad time for me, I can lean into my furry green– Maybe that’s what I’ll try. I’ll try to order like a Grinch or a frog costume– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –and maybe I’ll get a condom, too. 

Em: You know what? You can only go up from here. That– I mean, that’s, that’s shooting to the moon. 

Christine: If he doesn’t know who Frankenstein is, he’s not going to know who the Grinch is. 

Em: [laughs] Sure. 

Christine: He’s never met that man in his life either, I’m sure. 

Em: I– My biggest prayer for you is that every Instacart shopper is a woman. Um, ’cause– 

Christine: [chuckles] That’s so kind. 

Em: Uh, wasn’t Leona Grumpy Toad one year? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: So we’re just doing a role reversal situation. 

Christine: That’s right. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Um, I was Callie Cat. This year, Blaise is Calliei Cat, so we’re doing also gender-bender again. 

Em: Love that. 

Christine: Um, I– This year, Blaise is Callie. She’s Pete the Cat, and I’m Grumpy Toad. So I was like actually that kind of casting works pretty well, so. 

Em: Yeah, it’s just kind of like a school play, and everyone gets to rotate. 

Christine: Yes, and she got like a little guitar for her birthday. So I’m like, “Okay, we already have the props. Like you’re Pete the Cat. Wear these shoes. And–“ 

Em: She said recycle, babe. You know? 

Christine: Right? And wear blue, bl– And I’m like, Grinch clothes. I’m ready. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like people are like– People. You and Alexander are the only people I’ve discussed this with. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, and it’s been a development over the last three days, which is sometimes why I think my therapist asked if I’ve ever had like manic episodes. I’m like, “What are you talking about?” [laughs] Um, I’m like– 

Em: [laughs] Um, but I will say I’ve never in – What is it? 455 episodes? Uh– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –I’ve never heard this in my life. 

Christine: Interesting. And I think, I think I’m just, you know– It’s about time I just open up about it. 

Em: You should come out. It’s about– 

Christine: Thank you. Thank you. 

Em: I’m very proud of you. 

Christine: Yeah, thanks. 

Em: What is your favorite thing about The Grinch? Is it the story? Or did the characters– Are they just feel-good characters? Is it the, the whimsy? 

Christine: It’s definitely– It’s a nostalgia. It’s a whimsy, and it’s also the rhyming, I think, is very soothing– 

Em: That’ll do it. 

Christine: –to my, to my obsessive compulsive disorder, and it really just hit hits the right spot. I love the book. I read the book a lot growing up. Um, and there’s something about the old style animation of it that is like creepy, but I love it. Like it’s– Like the Jim Carrey thing I’m like, “That’s just plain creepy. I don’t want that.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: But like the old timey like retro animation? I don’t know. Something about it is very nostalgic to me. And, uh, then after, you know, I had my little witchy time in Egypt and everything, and I got back, and I was like really trying– contemplating the meaning of life. Yes, I’m going to bring The Grinch up in a moment. Um, I was thinking about The Grinch again because I do often even though nobody apparently knows that. And it’s like my Roman Empire. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: You know how people would just like ask like, “How often do you think about the Roman Empire?” Everyone’s shocked how often their partner or like a guy thinks about the Roman Empire. Like maybe that’s me with The Grinch. 

Em: Maybe, sure. 

Christine: Like nobody’s ever asked, you know, so I’m like– all the time. Um, but I don’t even remember the point of the story except that– 

Em: You were– The meaning of life and how The Grinch is involved in that. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Oh, the meaning of life. [laughs] Oh, how The Grinch taught me that. So then I was like learning about chakras, and I thought to myself, “Oh, like you know, you’re, you’re tr– you’re trying to open your heart chakra.” It’s really– It’s– It closes ’cause, cause life is hard, and, um, when things happen and you get triggered like your heart closes. So, I’ve been practicing to just open, um, my heart, and I was like thinking about this. And then I read the book to Leona, um, The Grinch Who Stole Christmas– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and it was like, “Oh, his, his heart was too small, and then at the end, it like grew in size,” and I was like, “That’s so nice.” I’ve been trying to work on like, you know, feeling into my heart and really opening it. 

Em: And– 

Christine: And so I was like, “Wow, that’s nice. And now he has a big heart, and he shares with everybody. And now they all love each other. The end, and everyone gets fun presents.” 

Em: I feel like I’m a bit Amelia Bedilia on that because when I was uh– Not to bring in another book reference, but when I heard that his heart grew three sizes, I literally thought anatomically my organs could grow like– 

Christine: Oh. And that’s frightening, especially for someone with a future heart condition. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. All of a sudden, I’m like, “Did it happen?” Wait a minute. 

Christine: You’re like, “Uh-oh, I better not be– I better shut this shit down before things get out of hand. 

Em: [laughs] Let me tell you. 

Christine: No, because they did make it scary like it was like growing out of the machine. 

Em: It looked like– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: It looked like an, like an electrical experience. 

Christine: And I think I kind of always like ignored that, but then this year, I read it, and I was like, “Oh, okay. Like symbolically, that’s kind of nice.” Like his heart grew, you know? I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah, symbolically it’s very sweet. 

Christine: And that’s like very blah and cliche, but I don’t know. There’s something about that movie that’s always just like hit home for me. And I tried to not because I was like, “I don’t like the Jim Carrey one.” I was like, “It’s been overdone and stuff,” but this year, I was like, “You know what? I’m going to reclaim it. I love The Grinch.” 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: And that’s the real me. Okay? [chuckles] 

Em: Yeah. And by the way, what a Halloween treat for all of us. That should have been like a Christmas announcement, but– 

Christine: That’s amazing. I showed up not even knowing it was our fucking Halloween episode, and I’m like, “I’m actually ready. I brought–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] “–I prepared a conversation about The Grinch for today.” Like– 

Em: I, I can’t wait for Christmas when you’re like, “So Halloween’s my favorite tradition,” and I’m like– [laughs] 

Christine: I know. When I’m like, “Hey, let’s talk about Grumpy Toad.” [laughs] 

Em: You know what’s funny? I, I mean, I don’t mind the cartoon one. I, I prefer the Jim Carrey one, but that’s because I’m a big sucker for like sets and props and stuff, but– 

Christine: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like, uh, visually that one’s really fun. Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Um– 

Christine: I think it’s just it scared me as a kid like, like in his– in your fa– you know, he makes all those scary faces. 

Em: There is a regular at the dog park, a little puppy named Ziggy. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And he– We all call him Grinch Toes because he’s got– 

Christine: I love Grinchy toes. 

Em: He’s got like the most insane case of Grinchy toes I’ve ever seen in my life. And– 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: I’m always like– It looks like he’s got little carpet tufts just sticking out of his feet. 

Christine: Yeah, they like curl up. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god. 

Em: Any– anytime I see him though, I think about The Grinch. 

Christine: Grinchy toes. 

Em: So I actually also think of The Grinch every day. 

Christine: See what I’m saying? Like I wonder– Can we ask everybody like how often do you think about The Grinch? Everyone’s going to be like, “Never, you fucking weirdo.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Only when you bring it up once a year at Christmas time, and then Em forgets about it again.” 

Em: You must have said it at some point like, “Oh, I love The Grinch,” but it was so in passing I didn’t even catch it, you know. 

Christine: And I think it’s also– Like I always put it in the newsletter. And so– To me, it’s become a bit because every year for like five years now, I put it in the newsletter as like my recommended film, and Jess is always like, “I know what to put.” But it’s not like you and I like– We– Like I get the newsletter, and I skim through it, but I don’t like pay attention to whatever your annual recommendation for the Christmas movie is. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: So like I don’t know. It wouldn’t– probably not have crossed your mind. So. 

Em: Yeah. So, that’s your favorite– 

Christine: It’s not; it’s me. [laughs] 

Em: That’s fine. That’s– So that’s your favorite movie. Good to know. Favorite movie or favorite Christmas movie? 

Christine: Apparently– I would say favorite Christmas movie. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But it’s, it’s a, it’s a classic. Yeah, I would say favorite Christmas movie. Yeah. 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: Thank you so much for asking the important questions when you’re dressed as a fucking used condom wrapper. 

Em: You know, everyone deserves a soapbox. Um– 

Christine: That’s beautiful. 

Em: So is that why you drink? 

Christine: That is why I drink. 

Em: Okay. Great. 

Christine: ’Cause, ’cause I’ve been deciding to be more vocal about my love for The Grinch. 

Em: That’s an important, uh, point on your journey, I think. 

Christine: [chuckles] Thank you. I– Really feels like it. 

Em: Is there, um, any other updates? Anything? How’s tour going? Anything you, you would like to share with the class? 

Christine: By the time this comes out, tour is over. I am sleeping. Actually, I’m going to a friend’s wedding in Hawaii. So, I’m like– 

Em: Ooh, fun. 

Christine: –zip zap zooming away for a bit. 

Em: Where– What um– What was I gonna say? How many more shows do you have left on your tour currently as we speak? 

Christine: One. 

Em: Oh, wow. Okay. 

Christine: One. 

Em: How are, how are you feeling about it? 

Christine: Oh, I’m so amped. We were actually gonna do a costume thing, and then today my brother called me and goes, “I don’t think I’m up for it.” And I was like, “Oh, thank god. Me neither.” So I think– 

Em: He can have my costume. 

Christine: Oh my god. Wait. I should– Please– We– Okay, let me think about this ’cause that could be very good. 

Em: Do, do you want me to overnight it to you? [laughs] 

Christine: Can you imagine you ship that to me? I’m like– All I have to do is order a Frankenstein costume on DoorDash, I guess– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and then I’ll get, and then I’ll get what I’m looking for. [laughs] 

Em: If you decide last minute you want it, I will send it to you because I certainly don’t want it – need or want it after this. 

Christine: You know what’s too funny too is–? Or what would be so funny is that this comes out after that show. So I’m gonna be like, “I don’t understand. Like what’s the joke,” [laughs] and then like a week later, it would all come to fruition. So– 

Em: You know the um– I just had lunch with someone yesterday, and they were like, “Oh, are you doing anything for Halloween? Maybe we can like hang out at your place and like feed– give out candy.” Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Feed the children of the neighborhood. 

Em: [laughs] Feed– And I, and I was like, “Oh, yeah. I have a– I’m getting a costume tomorrow morning. I’ll be Frankenstein.” And now like– 

Christine: [gasps] And now you’re gonna be a condom. [laughs] 

Em: I’ll be on a fucking registry like the– 

Christine: No, for real. The parents are going to be like, “Okay, noted. That house is skip– is skipped every year.” 

Em: “Let me feed you as I’m dressed in a condom.“ [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. “Oh, the children are here to be fed.” Oh my god. Nightmare. 

Em: [sighs] Anyway, um, so I gotta get another costume is basically what I’m saying to you. Um– 

Christine: Uh, do you though? 

Em: And Hank is dressed as nothing. It all– This all came from– This is all his fault actually. Um– 

Christine: Actually, if only you’d never become a dog parent– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –then you would not be dressed as a silly condom. 

Em: You said it. Okay, so– 

Christine: My life would be so much sadder. 

Em: I do have a story for you. I am going to take this thing off because fuck this. Um– 

Christine: I think it, I think it’s time for you, for your own sake. 

Em: Okay. I als– Okay, more Dracula music, please. And I’m going to– I’m going to save your eyes. Hang on. 

[Em tilts the camera down so it’s facing their desk] 

Christine: Oh my god. I wish– I kind of want to watch. I kind of don’t want to watch. 

[jack-o-lanterns fly across the screen, leading into an organ playing the first part of “Toccata in D Minor” by Johann Sebastian Bach] 

[the And That’s Why We Drink logo appears on the screen after the pumpkins cross the screen, looking like it’s on a VHS tape] 

[white noise fills the screen, buzzing, fading back to Em and Christine] 

Em: Okay. [sighs] 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: That was an experience for all of us. Um, okay. What did you want? Oh, yeah. Mwah-ha-ha-ha. 

[Em changes their background light from green to magenta] 

Christine: There it is. [singing to the tune of “Toccata in D Minor” by Johann Sebastian Bach] ♪ Duh-duh-duh ♪♪ 

Em: Um, I do– I w– really wish I could get the purple behind me all the way, um, but then that would require me holding it. Um– so– [laughs] 

[Em moves the light higher up on the wall so it’s directly behind them before angling the camera to show how that would require them holding it.] 

Christine: Oh, is that– I was like, “It looks good like that.” Oh, you’re holding it up. That’s gonna– 

Em: Yeah, instead I can just kind of like– Ah! Nope. Okay. 

[Em places the light back down onto their desk] Christine: Oh, well, it’s not bad. 

Em: I’m– It’s a half and half. I’m a child of the light and the dark. So. 

Christine: Wow, that’s powerful. 

Em: Thank you. Okay, maybe I’ll, I’ll do this so it’s a little spookier. I don’t know what I’m doing. 

[Em shifts to the side, closer to the light, before changing their mind and shifting back to where they were.] 

Christine: I feel like you’re acting a lot like me today. Just like kind of– 

Em: Finally! 

Christine: –making thumping noises with like mysterious equipment and like saying, “Ah, my glasses.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And like I mean, it all just– 

Em: I do have an, an, an interesting energy today– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and I don’t really know what’s going on. Um– 

Christine: I mean, you’re dressed– you were dressed as a condom for 15 minutes. That’s probably what’s going on. 

Em: I know it. That was, that was a big time in my day. Um, and I, I think I have therapy later, so that’ll be something I probably talk about. 

Christine: Thank god. 

[laughs] 

[glass clinks - start of ad break] 

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors] 

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break] 

Em’s Story – 6304 Beryl Road Haunting

Em: Okay. Well, I do have a story for you. Um, this was an interesting one because usually I– In case anyone is wondering my process– I know we’ve said it quite a few times that we both work differently when it comes to getting our notes, but I usually do about 6 to 12– Depending on how long the, the, the topic is or how extensive it is, I do about 6 to 12 hours worth of like researching. Then I take all those notes and break it down. It– I usually start like a very long page document, um, and try to get it all whittled down to like one succinct page.

Christine: Yeah, I’ve been witnessed– I’ve been privy to this process, and it is like– It’s its own, uh– I don’t even know how to describe it. 

Em: It feels like psychosis. It feels like– 

Christine: It, it looks like psychosis. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] I literally keep, um, a, a score at the end of each of my documents. If you were to ever like get my computer and look at each document– 

Christine: God forbid. God forbid. 

Em: –you would see I always put the number of how many pages I started at, at the bottom because I, I was j– I’m curious. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And it’s usually around like 150, which is crazy. Um– 

Christine: Like a 150. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: And then, and then, and then Em put it in like size– like what size font? 

Em: Eight. 

Christine: Eight. Size eight. Like just to give you an idea, on Google Docs, the, the standard is 11. So then Em goes size eight and then starts like whittling bit by bit like a fucking Michelangelo, you know? 

Em: Well, thank you. 

Christine: It’s, it’s something. It really is. 

Em: Anyway, I say– I, I appreciate your kind words. I say all that though to say this was interesting because all of this is– This is probably the fastest I’ve ever done notes. I got all this from one article on Medium. 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: Um, I didn’t find a lot more than this. This article was the most extensive one. I was like, “I’m just going to rock with this then.” So, um, I say that in case you want to go look at, at the article yourself. Um, it is called “American Ghosts.” That is the name of the article. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: And I don’t know if you recall, Christine, um, but for our Halloween episode, I asked if you had a Halloween wish again. And, um, do you remember what you said about what, what kind of story you would like? 

Christine: Not even a little bit. 

Em: Okay. So, you asked for a story where– I don’t even remember how you phrased it, but you said something like– 

Christine: I’m sure it was very smart. [laughs] 

Em: It was uh, it was something along the lines of like a ghost roommate, like living amongst a ghost. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Like having one in your house. Okay. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like living with them. Yeah, side by side. I remember. It was smart. 

Em: It was a very sm– I did not– 

Christine: I yelled defensively at nobody but myself. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah, I, I have– I never thought it was stupid at all. So I do remember kind of laughing in your face when you said it though ’cause I was like, “Oh, how am I even going to search that?” Um, yeah, but– 

Christine: Yeah, you were like, “Thank you for that vaguest fucking thing in the world.” And I said, “You are so welcome.” 

Em: Well, no, ’cause honestly, if I could go back in time and cover a story for your Halloween wish, I would have done that one where the people just lived amongst that like poltergeist who like threw knives and rocks at them. Remember that? 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Like the– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Like rocks would just fall from the ceiling, and then like people started coming in– And they lived there for like four years with a baby. And– 

Christine: And they were like, “Whatever.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was weird. 

Em: Yeah. That’s the story I would have loved to cover for you, but I already did it. So, um, this is– 

Christine: But I requested the topic after you already covered it. So, oops, my bad. 

Em: Just know that that’s– In a category world, that’s my favorite one in the category so far. Um– 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: This story literally was so underrepresented that, uh, it doesn’t even have like a name, a title. So, I’m just going to call it by its street, which seemed– That’s what this article did. Um, this is– 

Christine: Go by its street name. 

Em: –6304 Beryl Road Haunting. 

Christine: [gasps] The Bery– Okay. Now, is this a barrel like with bourbon in it or is–? 

Em: No. 

Christine: It’s a Beryl– 

Em: Beryl like the old name. 

Christine: Like the name. 

Em: Like B-E-R-Y-L. 

Christine: Okay. So, that’s so fun though ’cause I like that. ’Cause that’s a name that gets me every time. I’m like, “Beryl like a barrel?” Um– 

Em: We’ve, we’ve done that. 

Christine: We’ve had this conversation. 

Em: I– But I’m fully with you if, if– 

Christine: Bery– The Beryl Haunting. I like it. 

Em: If someone casually told me, “Oh, I’m on Beryl Road,” there’s only one Beryl I’m looking for. 

Christine: For real. And okay, Beryl Road Haunting sounds really good. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Like it sounds like– Or The Haunting at Beryl Road. Haunting on Beryl Road? 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: Like come on. 

Em: Now, Christine– 

Christine: Now, Christine. 

Em: Now, Christine! You know what you’re doing. 

Christine: Listen. 

Em: Okay. This is– 

Christine: I don’t, but thanks. 

Em: This is in Alexandria, Virginia, so my neck of the woods, if you give me an hour. 

Christine: Mm! Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, and this was in 1981. And it– This– The main story is of a couple named Gary and Esperanza, who went by Epi. 

Christine: Oh, love that. 

Em: Gar– 

Christine: Gary, you really– Uh, you, you moved up with the– on the– What’s– What do you say? You uh– 

Em: Climbed the ranks in some way. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. If your name’s Gary, you better hope you find an Esperanza to balance you out because– 

Christine: Yeah, or something that like rhymes with Gary to make it just like quaint and fun, but nothing in between. 

Em: [laughs] That’s true. So her– She went by Epi. Um, and they were in their 20s, married couple, and they, uh, decided that they were going to move into this house together, and their friend Bruce was moving in with them. So, it’s Epi, Gary, and Bruce. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And Gary was a furniture salesman. He was previously married, which does come up later. Um, he was uh– Yeah, he’s previously married. And they– As soon as they move in, things feel a little off for them. They all notice that they’re a little clumsy, that they’re– like they’re dropping things a lot. Things are spilling or falling over, and I think they kept blaming themselves. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: It’s unclear to me if those things were actually being knocked off the counter by themselves or like someone was pushing them or that they’re like they had some sort of vertigo situation. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: But– 

Christine: Sometimes I feel like this happens where I’ll like lean something, and like a few days later it’ll fall, and I’ll be like, “Oh, that’s probably just ’cause I leaned it funny.” But it is a little creepy because I’m like, “It’s been like there for three days.” You know what I mean? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like so maybe it’s stuff like that where you’re like, “Oh, I’m sure I just leaned it funny or like set it too close to the edge of the counter or,” you know. 

Em: Yeah, es-especially if you just moved into a place. 

Christine: Yes, true. 

Em: I feel like I don’t know enough yet to be like, “Oh, that was the ghost.” 

Christine: –to avoid the corner where your hip’s going to get fucking bruised every time you walk into the kitchen. Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. Another big thing that happened as they were moving in– or as soon as they moved in, excuse me, was that their dishes would break all the time. 

Christine: Oh, well that’s weird. 

Em: Yeah, which like– I don’t know how– 

Christine: Unless it’s Bruce, and he just like has a little bit of a strong hand with his fork or something, but yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] He just keeps swinging it into the sink when he’s washing it too hard. 

Christine: [laughs] He’s like, “Is this how it works?” 

Em: Um, they also were all having issues with sleep. Epi in particular was having so many bad dreams that she was staying up at night. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, which I’m sure adds to her probable– I would imagine like the feeling of being crazy ’cause you’re like, “I can’t even sleep.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm, yeah. 

Em: The couple joked around very early on that perhaps they had a ghost in the house. 

Christine: Oh, that’s always a red flag ’cause it’s true. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Like, “Hahaha, don’t joke too loud.” 

Christine: Hahahahaha. 

Em: But Bruce, he was a skeptic, and he did not believe the couple. They– He did not really consider this place haunted. He was just like, “We’re all excusing the fact that we’re apparently messes over here.” 

Christine: Of course he didn’t. Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, in fact, later on, Epi would– She would wonder if the energy was in (I hope I’m saying this right) orichá, which is– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: She was, I guess, Cuban, and in Cuban culture, um, an orichá is a– an unsolved spirit who attaches to vulnerable people, so. 

Christine: Oh, wow. Okay. So, like unfinished business type thing? 

Em: Maybe. My– The way I understood it ju– It’s truly just that definition in the article. My– So unevolved spirits is like just, I would imagine, just like a mass of energy that just attaches to somebody. 

Christine: Oh, unevolved. Oh, okay, okay. 

Em: Yeah. I might have said something different by accident. No, “unevolved spirits who attach to vulnerable people.” 

Christine: Gotcha. Okay, okay. Yikes. 

Em: Which it feels like it’s almost just kind of like a cluster of energy trying to find someone to latch on to, right? Like a– 

Christine: That got like– Yeah. Like a tumbleweed of– [laughs] 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: But like an evil tumbleweed. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You get it? You get what I’m saying? 

Em: I– 100%. Not to totally whitewash orichás– 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: –but it’s for sure just an evil tumbleweed. 

Christine: Hey, I’ll explain this a little better. Hold on everybody. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Em just taught me the word, and here I go. 

Em: I will say evil tumbleweed does make the most sense to my brain, so. 

Christine: I mean, it must be some type of spirit if it’s not an orichá. It’s something else. 

Em: Yeah. And, uh, that was just her first thought was like, “I, I wonder if that’s what it is ’cause something’s going on here.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: A neighbor ends up going up to Bruce when he– I think he’s like outside in the yard or something, and this neighbor just approaches him and was like, “Hey, do you know the history of the house you just moved into?” Beginning of every horror movie. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Yep. 

Em: Um, and Bruce, of course, he’s the perfect person to be approached– 

Christine: A skeptic. 

Em: –because he doesn’t give a shit. And he’s like, “No, I don’t, and I don’t care.” Um, but this neighbor said, “Just so you know, eight years before you guys moved in–” She probably didn’t say it that way. She went like, “Yeah, eight years back–” I’m trying to think how would she say it. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: Well, the more you think about it, the probably the weirder it’s gonna get when it comes out of your mouth, so. 

Em: [chuckles] Four score and seven years ago. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] 

Em: Basically what she said is like, “A few years ago a woman named Mary, uh, died by suicide in the house.” 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: “Just to give you a heads up now that you live in her old house.” 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: And her name was Mary Conlon. I don’t know if that matters later, but Mary Conlon. I also did these notes two weeks ago, so. 

Christine: Oh, I love that. 

Em: Remember when I texted you and I was like, “Hey, I’m ready to record,” and you were like, “I’m in Texas.” [laughs] 

Christine: I was like, “That’s fantastic. I’m so happy for you.” [laughs] I was literally at Buc-ee’s, and I was like, “Well, this is awkward.” 

Em: [sighs] I’m so jealous of you. Well– 

Christine: I should have hopped on and been like, “Hi, I’m reporting live today.” 

Em: Well, no, just so you know how long ago it’s been since I– 

Christine: I see. 

Em: –looked at this. 

Christine: That, that was a long time ago. That was multiple trips ago for– 

Em: Yes, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. Wow. 

Em: I think I’ve been on three trips since. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Man, in case anyone’s wondering what our recording scheduling is, I don’t know. 

Christine: We don’t know. 

Em: It j– It just shows up sometimes. [laughs] 

Christine: We just make our admin Katie miserable ’cause she’s like, “What? What’s happening?” And we’re like, “We don’t know. Oops.” 

Em: We’re just gallivanting. I don’t know. And maybe it’ll be more, um, week by week now that we’re both back, so. 

Christine: Hopefully. I feel like the holidays is like quiet– quieter time for us usually– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –because yeah, no touring. 

Em: Well, so okay. So she says, “Hey Bruce, just so you know, a woman died in there.” Um, she goes on to say it was right before Halloween. I think the article said literally like the day before Halloween. Um– 

Christine: Ooh, okay. 

Em: She hanged herself in the basement. 

Christine: [gasps] Shit. 

Em: And Bruce, of course– Which I think is kind of fucked up. Bruce didn’t believe it. Maybe he believed that someone died by suicide, but he didn’t fall for any like potential haunting theory. 

Christine: Right? He was like, “Okay, like that’s sa–“ Maybe he was like, “That’s sad, but irrelevant to us.” 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And I have to hope that that’s how he thought because the way that the article kind of made it sound was like he just didn’t believe any of this and that it was– 

Christine: He’s like, “I don’t care.” 

Em: Yeah. Or like– He like– I don’t know. Maybe he was in denial and didn’t want to live in a spooky place. I don’t know. 

Christine: Maybe he just didn’t wanna know. He’s like, “Don’t tell me shit like that.” 

Em: Fair enough. And so– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –basically, he did not tell, uh, Gary and Epi anything about this conversation. 

Christine: [gasps] No, that’s not fair. 

Em: And I think he was like, “They already think this place is haunted. Like, I don’t want to give them more ammo.” 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: Feels like something Allison would do. She’d be like– 

Christine: It does, yeah. 

Em: She’s like, “I just don’t even want to feed into this with you.” [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. Like I think it’s safer that they don’t know. Yeah. 

Em: And honestly for science, maybe he was like, “How about I say nothing, and let’s see what they come up– come into.” 

Christine: That’s actually a very good point, and now I’m kind of coming over onto the other side, which is like fascinating. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Maybe I would also do that just to see. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, yeah. It’s like, “Let’s just–“ Like that, that TV show we keep referring to– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: –where it’s like, “One of us knows, and one of us doesn’t. Let’s see what the other one figures out.” 

Christine: Yes. Yes. 

Em: So the friends, they are unaware– Or the married couple, they’re unaware, but they are continually weirdly clumsy around this house. They’re– Dishes are still breaking. They start smelling rotting flesh. I don’t– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: I didn’t write this in the notes, but I remember it being mentioned a lot in the article that the rotting flesh smell was coming from like their kitchen drain. 

Christine: Oh god. Ew. 

Em: So, in my mind, I would have first justified that with like the last people to live here put something disgusting in– or something died down there or– 

Christine: Yeah, and it’s like stuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Um, so I would have justified that, um, early on. But they start smelling really like rotting flesh from down there. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And not only that, but I guess whenever the smell would come out, there would also be like smoke that came out of the kitchen drain, which I can’t justify. 

Christine: Ew! 

Em: Um, then there started to be sounds in the basement, which is where the, the woman died by suicide. 

Christine: Oh no. Oh no. 

Em: Maybe it’s because the couple believed in ghosts or because Bruce knew the history and actively ignored the weird activity, but things happened noticeably more often to the married couple than to Bruce. So, um, it re– I really do think it could have just been because he just shut it off. He was like, “I don’t want to know about that.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Um, and they were like feeding into that, right? So– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, and– Or maybe they– because they were on high alert about it, they were a– they were clocking more things than he was, you know? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Like maybe he was writing stuff off, and they were not. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But also, how do you write off smoke and rotting flesh smells in your kitchen? You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: I mean, you did the rotting flesh part. 

Em: That’s true. 

Christine: The smoke? I guess it depends on if there’s a disposal, but this is like what? The ‘80s? So probably not. 

Em: Yeah, I don’t know. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So this especially– The spirits or the activity seemed to focus more around Epi and not Gary. 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: Um, although he also believed in the ghosts, Epi was kind of the main victim here. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, she would feel the most nauseous when she would come home from work or whenever she would come from being outside. It’s kind of like when you’re– those stories of the people who are possessed when they would– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –they would like feel like terrible and have a horrible personality, and they were kind of being fed off of when they’re at home, but then when they would leave, they’d be like, “I feel fucking great.” 

Christine: Like a different person. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So that was happening to her. The dishes broke around her the most. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: She was still losing sleep from the dreams, uh, that she was having. And one morning, she went down to the kitchen. Everyone’s still asleep, so she’s down there by herself, and she walks in, and she sees a woman sitting at the table holding a mug. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And the woman stared into Epi’s eyes and smiled. And in this moment, Epi fully freezes, sleep paralysis way, in like a– like, “I can’t move” kind of vibe. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And the woman says, this is a quote, “Hi, Epi. You may think your life is perfect, but when you’re at work, I’m here with your husband.” 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: I– Like that feels like some Maury shit, like some Jerry Springer. [laughs] 

Christine: Literally get the cameras in now. 

Em: And then– 

Christine: Holy shit, TLC. Look out, Bravo. 

Em: So she’s frozen. This fucking person who should not be in her house is sitting at her table, holding her mug and smiling. Yuck. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And then saying this shit about like, “I’m at home with your husband.” 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: And then the walls begin to breathe. 

Christine: Huh? 

Em: And they slowly fade into blackness until there’s nothing but complete blackness behind this woman. 

Christine: She’s a fucking showman, huh? She’s like, “Let me do a little performance art for you.” 

Em: I know. Exactly. Uh, and in this moment, Epi’s paralysis breaks. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And all of a sudden, she just full-blown lunges at this woman. 

Christine: Oh my god. So she’s actually awake. Like she was like walking around. Like she wasn’t like dreaming this. 

Em: Well, so then she felt something yank on her arm. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: And she woke up to Gary holding her down in the midst of her having an intense full body dream. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So you clocked that. Um– 

Christine: Yuck. I have goosebumps. That’s gross. 

Em: But Epi certainly remembered this dream. And I mean, she was in the middle of like– You know what? Good for her. She was trying to beat that girl’s ass. 

Christine: Seriously. 

Em: She was like, “Get the fuck out of my house.” Um– 

Christine: But you know that infuriating moment where you lunge and then they disappear, and it’s like, “Well, fuck me. Now I look like an idiot,” you know? 

Em: [laughs] I want to hear y– I wanna hea– I’m going to repeat it back to you: “You know when you lunge and then she disappears?” [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] And? 

Em: No. 

[laughs] 

Christine: But you know– Okay, let me rephrase that. 

Em: I know what you meant. 

Christine: You know, when you’re watching a movie, and it’s like, “Oh, I’m gonna get that,” and it like disappears or they like whoosh somewhere else– 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: –or they have some sort of power or whatever, and it’s like, “You can’t catch them, and it’s–“ I don’t know. Maybe I’m just making that up. [laughs] 

Em: I– No, it was just funny how you said it. It’s like, “You know when you’re like beating her ass and then all of a sudden she’s not a real person?” [laughs] And I’m like– 

Christine: [laughs] “Isn’t that frustrating?” 

Em: As I’m putting the straight jacket on you, “Yeah, girl. I know. Yeah.” 

Christine: “Uh-huh. Yes, totally. We’ve all been there. We all get it.” 

Em: I feel like that’s something you’re gonna say when they put you in the padded walls later. 

Christine: “You know, she just disappeared.” 

Em: “I know. I know. Let’s put on your grippy socks. I know.” 

Christine: Oh god. Yep, yep. “Don’t worry about it.” 

Em: So it was after that night. I mean, she– That was a pretty intense dream. I would be terrified of that dream for the rest of my life. 

Christine: Oh, terrible. And I mean, it’s like it introduced itself to you. Like I don’t like that. 

Em: It was after this night that the activity picked up, and by summer, the ghosts were like really here. They were– 

Christine: Ew. It feels like it like started a– opened something that dream, you know? 

Em: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: Uh, yeah. And I don’t know if it was because– I don’t know if it was because the dreams got that intense, and now they’re like finally like close enough to her, or if it was like, “Oh, she lunged. Like we’re all fighting now, you know?” 

Christine: Right, right. Like is– It– Was that the trigger to like make it all– 

Em: Which like what do you think is gonna happen when you’re a ghost saying, “I’m with your husband”? 

Christine: Well, that’s probably what they wanted. They probably wanted her to react so that now they can be like, “A-ha!” 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: “It’s on,” you know? Like baiting her. 

Em: Yeah. You know what? Maybe. 

Christine: Rage-baiting her in her own home. 

Em: It worked. 

Christine: That’s sad. 

Em: And so she heard– The, the whole house, they heard sounds all over the place for no reason. There were obvious footsteps when all of them were not upstairs. Constant breaking dishes. The smoke came out of nowhere in the kitchen all the time, and it still reeked of rotting flesh all the time. Up until this point, Bruce was in denial that anything could be here because he was like, “I don’t want to know anything about this.” 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Um, but then one day, Epi saw that her locked car had moved itself in the driveway. 

Christine: What? 

Em: It had picked itself up and put itself in a way in the driveway where it was now blocking the driveway in a way where they could not get out if they wanted to. 

Christine: Oh my god. I was picturing like it moved a foot sideways, but it like literally just totally– 

Em: It did a three-point turn, and it– [laughs] 

Christine: Ho– [laughs] Holy shit. And he’s like, “There’s no way a woman could have done that. This must be a ghost.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] They– “I mean, it parked so perfectly, and you know females and driving.” 

Christine: “That’s not, that’s not possible.” [chuckles] 

Em: Um, yeah, it is weird that that’s the thing that tricked him. 

Christine: Right? 

Em: Because that’s the one I would explain away the most and be like, “Someone moved the car, and I didn’t see it happen.” 

Christine: Right. I feel like that’s the most like physical one that could be explained by a person doing it. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Well, I guess the car, this is a quote, is that the car was “aimed squarely at the house as if waiting to crash through the wall.” 

Christine: So it’s like a threat. 

Em: Yeah, it feels– 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: Yeah. So I think that’s when he was like, “Okay.” Um, Gary actually yelled at Bruce about it, thinking that he must have done it to prank them, which like– 

Christine: Hilarious. 

Em: I know. And I wonder– I don’t know the ins and outs of their dynamic, but I imagine Bruce had been telling them the whole time like, “It isn’t real. It isn’t real.” And so then when this car thing happened and it feels like a direct threat, Gary’s like, “Well, you’ve like– You obviously don’t believe in this shit, so like you did this to us.” 

Christine: “Fucking explain yourself then.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 

Em: Um, meanwhile– 

Christine: It is about time he explains himself, frankly, if he’s still saying, “This isn’t real.” You know what I mean? 

Em: Yeah. And, uh, so this was the beginning of a rift for them where like Gary was like, “You did it,” and Bruce was like, “No, I didn’t.” 

Christine: Oh, this is how It happens. It feels like this is how it always goes. 

Em: It– And it, it does feel like that with, with poltergeists. I feel like– 

Christine: It pits them against each other. 

Em: –the men always get violent and angry with each other. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And the women always kind of get into this weird lull where they don’t know what’s happening or they– 

Christine: And they almost get like victimized in other ways like dreams and that kind of thing. Yeah. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: So Epi decided to investigate, and eventually, she was able to figure out Mary’s death. And so she f– which like I guess it probably wasn’t that hard of an investigation, just go knock on the neighbor’s door. 

Christine: So did he finally tell her? 

Em: No. 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: To– In his defense currently, I don’t think she knew he knew either. I think it was– 

Christine: I see. 

Em: I think she was about to like give them breaking news, and then Bruce just awkwardly go, “Yeah, I know.” 

Christine: Oh, okay. Okay. So she finds out also on her own. Okay. 

Em: Yeah, and they did use the word “investigate,” I think, in the article. And, uh, in hindsight, I’m like, that chatty little fucking neighbor probably just told her, [chuckles] you know. 

Christine: She was li– Yeah, I know. I know. But I would, I would be like, “Oh, I’ve investigated the situation.” So, I get it. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Detective Epi on the case, yeah. 

Christine: I mean, maybe she went to the library. That takes a whole trip. And, you know. 

Em: Yeah, exactl– I mean, it was the ‘80s. I– It’s not like she could just give it a “goog,” you know. 

Christine: Perfection. “Give it a goog.” 

Em: So she was able to figure out who Mary was, that Mary died, um, after a previous suicide attempt, uh, eight weeks before. 

Christine: [inhales sharply] 

Em: So this was– 

Christine: Oh jeez. 

Em: –not her first attempt. 

Christine: No. 

Em: Um, and after she passed, her husband actually stayed in the house, remarried, and it happened to be someone who was ten years younger than Mary was. 

Christine: Oh jeez. 

Em: And in that moment– Because remember I told you earlier that Gary had been married in the past? 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: So, I guess in this moment, Epi had a personal moment of empathy for Mary– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: –being like, “I can’t imagine being a ghost and having to live in the house that you planned on having your whole life in with your husband.” 

Christine: Oh, with your partner, yeah. 

Em: “And now, and now he’s, he’s having this life in this house with somebody else–“ 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “–and you just have to watch it ’cause you’re stuck here.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, so that gave her a little bit of uh, I don’t know, warmth, compassion for Mary’s ghost that was potentially haunting them. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And she decided, “Well, Mary has never done anything harmful to us, um, and so she can stay.” And she basically said, “As long as you stop breaking things, you can stay.” [chuckles] 

Christine: Okay. All right. I guess it’s a good boundary. 

Em: Like, “Dishes are getting expensive, bitch. Like, figure it out.” 

Christine: I think there might– Right. For real. And again, no Amazon, no Tar– Like you got to go to a store and buy that? Forget it. 

Em: Exactly. It’s like the dishes are expensive; the gas to get the dishes is expensive. 

Christine: It’s a lot of work. 

Em: So after a-accepting her, bringing her into the fold, the hauntings actually became less scary and more silly. 

Christine: [chuckles] She’s like, “Actually, I’m just– I just wanted to be your friend the whole time. Oh my god.” 

Em: “I’m so glad we’re bonding because I’m actually just a goober, and I just wanted to hang out with you.” 

Christine: “Yeah, I can’t wait for you to see my real personality.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: So, I guess, uh, now it’s more like balloons popping; papers were floating around; small items would fall, but nothing would break. 

Christine: I feel like we’d be like, “Haha, hey girl.” 

Em: Yeah, exactly. I’d be like– 

Christine: “Thanks.” 

Em: Honestly, and this is, for your Halloween wish, someone just living amongst the ghosts. And I, I feel like if I had to experience that– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and I came to terms with this like this girl who was like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –she just was depressed, and like we’re all going through stuff, and– 

Christine: We get it, yeah. 

Em: –she lives here with us. Like I’d just pour her like, like a red wine every night and just be like, “Sip on this, babe,” you know? 

Christine: Yeah, “Sit down. Like you deserve a break.” 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 100%. So in my mind– 

Christine: “And stop touching my china.” 

Em: In my mind, that’s how things are. Or like you know how she’s living with her husband and another man? I feel like she would like Jim Halpert to like nothing and go, “Girl, men. Am I right? You know?” 

Christine: [gasps] Yeah. Ugh, please. 

Em: You know when you’re like gossiping and then she disappears? [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] You know when you’re just like lunging at her. You know how that happens, guys. Guys? 

Em: Can you ima– You know over that first glass they had to go, “Girl, I’m so sorry I jumped you.” 

Christine: “Oh my god. And like also like I’m sorry I was flirting with your husband this whole time. He was–“ 

Em: Yeah, that was crazy. 

Christine: “He was really into it though. So–“ 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Awkward. 

Em: The– I, I do wonder. N– It feels like they never resolved that first conflict. 

Christine: That’s what I wonder. I’m like, are they ever going to talk about that? No? Okay. 

Em: I guess not. I– Maybe when she gets a Ouija board or something, but– 

Christine: All right, fine. 

Em: So after coming to this truce, uh, the com– the confirmation of the hauntings existing, uh, kind of leaked because the couple, they were like, “Let’s figure out more information here.” 

Christine: “We gotta–“ Yeah. 

Em: Um, they ended up reaching out to the American Institute of Parapsychology, and there was a guy there named Dr. McClenon, and he was very excited to help. Um, he actually became a regular at the house, and he was constantly there to like surveil what was going on and observe. 

Christine: I love it. He’s like, “I’m ready to constantly be at your house. Here I come.” 

Em: He’s like, “Give me– 

Christine: It’s like, “That’s not quite what I asked.” [laughs] 

Em: “Give me an address. I’m here now.” 

Christine: “Give me a fucking key actually, ’cause I’m gonna be here all the time.” [laughs] 

Em: He really was. He was there a lot. 

Christine: Oh, great. 

Em: And for not um– not every day, but he made a lot of appointments, at-home calls, I guess, throughout– for months. 

Christine: [chuckles] Jesus. Wow. Okay. 

Em: And he witnessed no activity. 

Christine: What? Sorry, that was so loud. Wow. 

Em: The housemates claimed that there were many experiences each month, but Dr. McClenon noticed that they would attribute a lot of those to like random instances that could have totally not been paranormal. Maybe they were, but like, you know– 

Christine: He just couldn’t– 

Em: –something falls, and it could have been a, a wind draft, and nobody’s even considering that. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Sure. Okay. 

Em: So, Dr. McClenon’s like, “I hear you, and I– but I’m here a lot, and I haven’t seen anything.” 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: And the couple basically wondered if Dr. McClenon– um, if he, if he never witnessed anything because Mary didn’t want to be observed like that. That was their next justification of like– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –well, she is here, but when he’s around, all of a sudden, she is tight lipped. 

Christine: Right. Which I feel like we hear in some of these stories like that, “Oh, the ghosts just act differently when they’re being like filmed or like they don’t come out, you know.” 

Em: Yeah. Yeah. So after her– Or they– I guess they thought that maybe Mary was upset with them ever calling somebody in. Um, after Dr. McClenon’s visit, they kind of got a confirmation– I guess after this big visit where he said, “Well, nothing’s going on–“ 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –it’s, it seems like that’s when Mary maybe showed truer colors again and maybe they were on to something with her being upset that she was being studied. 

Christine: Ah, she’s like, “I thought we were friends.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. Because then the dishes started rattling in the sink again, which hadn’t happened since their truce. 

Christine: [gasps] Uh-oh. 

Em: The dark smoke reappeared. And to me, it feels like it was as if like their like little handshake agreement was off now. 

Christine: Had been violated. Yes. And she’s like, “No more.” Okay. 

Em: Yeah. So the couple overlooked it, and they, uh, decided instead, “We’re going to do a seance.” 

Christine: Interesting choice. Okay. 

Em: I guess it was Dr. McClenon’s suggestion of like– 

Christine: I’m sure it was. 

Em: –“I’m not seeing anything, but maybe have a seance and see if something else comes up.” 

Christine: [chuckles] “Maybe– Why don’t you have a seance? That’s– That’ll help.” 

Em: “Why don’t you really ruffle some feathers?” 

Christine: “Thanks. And I’m not gonna be there,” I assume. Or is he there? 

Em: I think he’s there. I don’t– I’m not sure. I think he was there. 

Christine: He probably is there. Wha– Who am I kidding? Of course, he’s there. 

Em: If it was his suggestion and he’s a, a new researcher at an institute– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: –I’m sure he wants to be there, so. 

Christine: He probably– And he really keeps showing up to find this ghost. Like, he really wants it to be real, you know? 

Em: Yeah. Maybe Mary just hates him. You know what I’m saying? Maybe she’s just like, “Get out.” 

Christine: I mean, I would hate him if he was just like constantly barging into my home, you know, to like look for me. God. 

Em: Mm-hmm. So, they do the seance. After the seance, there is noticeably less activity. Um, and nine months in to having lived there– This is all within nine months apparently, Bruce moves out and a new housemate moved in named Cindy. She was not a fan of Mary’s at all. Um– 

Christine: Uh-oh. [chuckles] Mary just can’t catch a break with these tenants. Okay. 

Em: She’s like, “I’m stuck here. You can leave if you don’t like it.” 

Christine: She’s like, “Yeah, that’s the problem. Like, I’m like here, ride or die. You got to make, make it work. Not me.” 

Em: Well, so Cindy pretty much immediately was like, “There’s a woman in my window. Like, I hate this. Please make it stop.” And– 

Christine: Uh, “I’m not having this. There’s a woman in my window.” “Oh, yeah. Did we not tell you about Mary? Oh, oops.” 

Em: [laughs] “She loves the view from up there.” So Cindy claimed that there was a woman in her window multiple times– 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: –and would describe the woman, and it happened to look exactly like the woman from Epi’s dream. And you know Epi’s– 

Christine: [laughs] She’s in the window. Oh no. 

Em: All of a sudden, I feel like Epi was like, “I kind of get why Bruce didn’t say shit to me ’cause now I don’t want to say anything to this woman.” 

Christine: I agree with you. I agree with you. Like what do you do? 

Em: I think it’s like, “Oh, how the turntables, you know?” 

Christine: How the turntables. That’s right. 

Em: So Halloweekend 1981. 

Christine: Oh, what a time. 

Em: This is now– I mean, this is their first Halloween here, and they have a literal fucking ghost, and the Alexandria Journal actually did a fluff piece on their house for spooky season which is fun. 

Christine: Okay, that’s fun. 

Em: So other people know about it, and everything seems lighthearted enough. Although I, I guess Cindy knows ’cause she opened up the Alexandria Journal that day, I bet, and was like, “What? Well, that makes sense.” 

Christine: Yeah, Cindy was probably like, “Jesus Christ. Okay, that explains a lot.” [laughs] 

Em: Well, eventually she moves out, and then two new housemates move in together. It’s two guys named Joe and Evans with an S– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –and their dogs. They all move into the house. So, it’s now– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –a fucking zoo, I guess, there. 

Christine: I love that this couple’s like, “Actually, let’s bring in more animals and people.” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: “Let’s– Instead of like getting rid of one person, let’s add four more beings to the house.” 

Em: I know. At this point, I’d be like, “Mary, you pay part of the rent, and then, uh, it could just be the two of us.” 

Christine: Seriously. 

Em: During this time, the activity was very minimal. And I s– I remember in the article, it said something like, um, Joe and Evans, I think, were younger. It became a bit of a party pad, and so I think no one was paying attention if there was like loud music and people coming in and out all the time. I think it just– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –you know, nothing was really going on. It’d stay that way for many months, but then it picked up again, and this time it felt very threatening. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Um, one time, Epi fell down the stairs and swore that the rug had been pulled out from under her. 

Christine: [gasps] Oh no. 

Em: She’s probably like, “Why are all these fucking frat guys in my house all of a sudden?” 

Christine: Yeah, actually, all of this sounds really bad. I would probably– I mean, maybe not push someone down the stairs. That’s a little much. But lik– 

Em: I get that. 

Christine: I don’t know. I– I’d knock a few glasses and plates over. Maybe. 

Em: Yeah. And you know, you know, like if, if they know that this is a haunted house and there’s a bunch of like young guys drinking, someone probably said something offensive about her. 

Christine: I mean– 

Em: Like, “You know this place is haunted by some bitch.” You know, something stupid. 

Christine: –there’s not a chance in the world that that’s not true. Yeah, I agree with you. 

Em: Yeah, it’s s– 

Christine: 100%. 

Em: –someone who would buy a condom costume instead of a Frankenstein costume was certainly there. 

Christine: For sure. 

Em: And Mary could smell it, and she was like, “Get out of my house.” 

Christine: And like to comment and then like to think like, oh, she died by suicide. Who knows what kind of comments that was all about? 

Em: Mm-hmm, yeah, especially in the ‘80s. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. I feel like recipe for disaster. Yeah. 

Em: So, another time that it, it felt threatening was that in the shower, um– while in the shower– 

Christine: Well, this is a bad start. 

Em: Yeah. I, I was like, “What? I haven’t read these notes in two weeks.” And I was like, “What am I about to say?” 

Christine: [laughs] “In the shower”? 

Em: While in the shower, her– the bathroom door opened by itself, and she had to like lean out of the shower to push it closed. The door opened again. She had to lean out and push it closed. And then it kept happening. 

Christine: Don’t do it. 

Em: So like your whole shower is ruined, first of all. Water all over the floor. 

Christine: First of all, you can never get perfectly warm, and that sucks. 

Em: Um, and it just kept happening, but it just felt very menacing. And the way that Epi described it was like, it was like, “This is the first time she’s ever interacted with me when I’m like naked and vulnerable.” 

Christine: [inhales sharply] 

Em: Those were the– Those were the words, naked and vulnerable. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t love that. I really don’t. 

Em: Um, then, uh, the kitchen kept having the rotten smell again. 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: One night, Joe and Evans were home alone, and they heard a noise that was apparently, this is a quote, “as loud as a bullhorn.” And then the other guy said, “Like a bull or an elephant in a tin can factory.” That’s as loud– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: What a specific way to say that. 

Christine: One of them is moving on up to the Alexandria Journal any day now. That– With that kind of fucking vocabulary. Wow. Beautiful. 

Em: [laughs] Absolutely. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Uh, but they were by themselves, and all of a sudden, they heard this crazy fucking sound. And despite being, um, uh, despite being alone, they swore by it. And I’m sure Epi and Gary were like, “We get it. We believe that.” 

Christine: Yeah. Welcome to, welcome to our lives. Welcome. 

Em: Um, what people started thinking was really weird, especially like their surrounding friends– uh, Epi and Gary had lived with this thing for like a– over a year now, I think, and they had always seemed fine with it. But out of nowhere, even though they’re in their 20s, Epi made a will. Um– 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: So, I mean, the fact that there– it’s making all these sounds that sound like a bull in a something factory. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, the door keeps opening and closing while they’re in the shower. Maybe someone got pushed down the stairs. Like it just feels menacing now. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: And the fact that Epi wrote a will makes me think that there were a lot more things that happened that we don’t know about, and– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –she was getting freaked out. 

Christine: Especially if she had that like really chilling dream where she like encountered that woman and had an actual conversation with her. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like who knows if another one happened or– 

Em: Yeah. Or– 

Christine: Or if she lunged again, you know? I don’t know. 

Em: It also makes you wonder like was Mary ever nice to her or was that a ploy to get closer? 

Christine: Right. Good point. Like was it a phony– Oh, yuck. That’s creepy. I hadn’t even thought of that. 

Em: Like she showed her true colors in the dream and then was playing nice to get closer so she could maybe feed off of her? 

Christine: “Okay, we can be friends, but I’ll still be flirting with your husband while you’re at work. Whatever that means.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, and then try to push you down the stairs. I don’t know. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, then one night, they all go out for– to a party and when they come back– Oh my god, I forgot about this part. Oh, Christine. 

Christine: Oh. Oh no. 

Em: This is why– Okay. Okay. I’m touching on your, your turf now. 

Christine: Oh, okay. I’m intrigued. 

Em: Um, this is, I think, uh, a first, uh, for me on my end. Um– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: They all go out to a party, and– 

Christine: Uh-oh 

Em: –uh they came back home and went to sleep, and a fire started in the kitchen. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Instead of it smoking, a fire finally ignited. 

Christine: Out of the sink? 

Em: I guess out of the sink. 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: We don’t know where the fire started, but it was somewhere in the kitchen. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: The fire grew out of control almost instantly, and Joe and Evans were able to escape. 

Christine: [gasps] No. 

Em: But Epi and Gary did not survive. 

Christine: Okay. So, you hear “living among the ghosts,” and you, you bring me, “Hey, this is the first story where a ghost murdered someone.” 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, okay. 

Em: For a while, they lived with them. 

Christine: [sighs] That is actually– I mean, of all the scary stories, that’s fucking terrible and terrifying. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So you really nailed it with that, the Halloween aspect. 

Em: I remember thinking for Halloween this was going to be like a– 

Christine: It’s a really– That’s– 

Em: –different story. 

Christine: That’s a creepy one. I’m not going to lie. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Um, holy shit. She died? They died? Both of them? 

Em: Yeah. Yeah. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, and when fire officials uh– This is one of those sad fun facts. 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: When fire officials arrived, the shift commander on duty that responded to the call was the same one who came to the house when Mary died and even responded that now both deaths that have happened in this house happened on a Sunday before dawn. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: So it’s al– I, I wonder if it was like Mary’s anniversary or something like that. I don’t know. 

Christine: Well, it wasn’t Halloween, was it? That they– The fire? 

Em: Oh, right. It wasn’t. Yeah. 

Christine: It wasn’t? 

Em: No. Um– 

Christine: That is just beyond, dude. What? 

Em: Yeah. The fire– 

Christine: I don’t think I ever knew there was a story like that. I mean, that’s probably why there’s not much on it ’cause like it’s over. 

Em: Yeah. Well, who wants to report, you know, quote factually about like a ghost murdering somebody? 

Christine: Zak Bagans does, uh, for sure. 

Em: Zak Bagans does. 

Christine: And I think he probably just doesn’t even know about it. But it’s like once they die, well, there’s not much else you can do at this point. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like the story is like kind of over unless something happens with the next people who live there. 

Em: And, and I wonder how they even got the information about Epi and Gary’s haunts before this. ’Cause usually you would think like, “Let’s go back in time and see how this all played out, or why we think a ghost is involved.” 

Christine: Yeah. Um, I wonder if like the Bru– if Bruce or one of them told the story. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. I wonder if it was like a compilation of everybody else’s memories of them. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Like, “Oh, this happened and this happened.” Yeah. Ew. 

Em: Well– 

Christine: And then there was that article about the house, right? 

Em: Yeah, the fluff piece, yeah. 

Christine: There was that too. Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: So, the fire was ultimately deemed an accident. However, it was mentioned that it began directly above where Mary was found. 

Christine: Jesus Christ. I mean– 

Em: So it was, it was right where she passed. It was on the same– It was on a Sunday before dawn, just like when Mary died, and the same shift commander came out to the house for both calls, which is just extra eerie. 

Christine: [sighs] It’s just so chilling. Yeah, it’s eerie. It– Like whether it– Whether it’s a coincidence or not, like it’s very eerie. 

Em: Yeah. They– After they passed, um, newspapers ran with articles titled, “Ghost Suspected as Cause of Fire that Killed Two People.” So– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: –like it was actually, you know, headlined– or I don’t know headlined, but it was written it– with the thought in mind like a ghost killed these people. 

Christine: It was already like part of the story, yeah. Wow. 

Em: This is– These headlines that– I’m saying headlines. I don’t know what the right word is, but the titles of these articles saying that the ghost might have been the murderer– this makes this case or this story one of the few times that something paranormal is suspected as a cause of death in someone’s– I mean, isn’t that fucking crazy? 

Christine: It is because sometimes we talk about that where we’re like, “Oh, do you think like if a kni–“ Like remember we’ve talked about when people’s like tools or, or knives or other weapons like start moving? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And you hear those stories where like a knife flies right past your head and sticks into the wall, and you and I’ve always wondered like, “Is it because they can’t kill you?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like is there some sort of universal law where they like can’t exactly kill you? Or is it like they’re playing with you? Or is it like– But this is like– 

Em: Yeah, this, this weirdly– 

Christine: Eugh. This feels chilling. I mean, and the fact that like maybe they could have escaped but they didn’t, and so maybe it was– Oh, it’s awful. It’s awful. 

Em: I mean, like the fact that Joe and Evans– I mean, they, they said that by the time they woke up, the house was fully on fire. 

Christine: [sighs] Oh Jesus Christ. 

Em: Like there was no going back in and helping anybody. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Um, so– 

Christine: That’s crazy. 

Em: So it could have been Mary that ended up killing them. We don’t know. But, um, there– and there could have been other spirits on the property. Or to be honest, it could have been an electrical problem or like a– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It sounds like– I, I don’t know enough about if they ever called the plumber for the sink or if they ever called an electrician to see if there was any like old loose wires or something. 

Christine: I mean, I like to think that that one guy who was like trying to find evidence at least like dug into some of that, you know, but who knows. 

Em: Yeah, I hope he did. I hope he did. But, um, ’cause it could have just been– I mean, there have– The closest thing we ever had to a housefire– Knock on wood this is all we ever have to deal with. But when I was a kid– It actually felt very eerie to me. I remember waking up in the middle of the night and telling myself I needed to go stand in the hallway. And truly if– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. I remember this story. 

Em: –if there were– if there was a Ring camera to like catch this, it would have looked so fucking eerie because I just stood in the hallway and just looked at a light for like five minutes, and then it caught on fucking fire. [chuckles] And– 

Christine: Dude. 

Em: –isn’t that cra– I just had a hunch and a– 

Christine: I don’t know, Em. Now that I hear it again, I’m thinking maybe you set it on fire by staring at it. 

Em: It– On a Ring camera, it would have looked like I telepathically started a fire for sure. 

Christine: Like pyrokinesis. 

Em: Um, but I, I remember just feeling like I needed to be awake, feeling like I needed to go in the hallway and just look at the light, and it just ignited. And I immediately turned the light switch off. I was like a kid. I didn’t know what to do. And I just screamed, “Mom!” And the firehouse came– 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: –and basically there was some random electrical wiring faulty thing that happened in the attic. 

Christine: Dude, somebody fucking woke you up. 

Em: I know. I know. It j– 

Christine: Who do you think it was? 

Em: I don’t– 

Christine: Or do you think it was just your own like intuition? 

Em: I mean, there’s always the theory that it was future me. There’s al– 

Christine: Right. I do like that theory because that feels like right now you could be like, “Oh yeah, I better go back and tell myself so I don’t forget.” 

Em: I do that all the time in my head. I’m like, “In case–“ 

Christine: I do that too! 

Em: “–in case this is the moment you need to wake up and go, ‘Go look at the light.’” 

Christine: I do that too. Sometimes I think about like a moment in time, and I’m like, “Oh, let me just like pop in real quick and say like, ‘Hey.’” [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. Yeah. I um– So it could have been that, could have been my grandpa. There was also a lot of ghosts. There was like– I told you there’s like that really creepy ghost that was– 

Christine: Like on the property? 

Em: –in my– Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes. That– 

Em: There was that one ghost in my bedroom. He might have known something was going to happen. Um, but it was very– I should have not been awake. I should have not been out of my room. Why would I look at that light the way that I did? 

Christine: I mean, that’s just fucking creepy, dude. And your mom finds you out there? Like– 

Em: I was screamed until she woke up– 

Christine: In the hallway. 

Em: –and I was like, “Get out here. There was a fire.” 

Christine: Holy shit. “There was a fire.” [chuckles] Jesus Christ. 

Em: And also like I turned off the light so quickly. It didn’t really– The ceiling looked a little like singed, but you like– There i-in– 

Christine: I mean, thank god. Like but– 

Em: I know. The fact that it happened– 

Christine: Jesus Christ. 

Em: –that eerily tells me if I didn’t wake up, we would have died for sure. 

Christine: Yeah. Like there’s a reason you woke up and, and did it right away, for sure. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like there’s no other way. I– Did I ever tell you [chuckles] my, um, my fire story? I’m sure I did on the podcast, but like– 

Em: I– Tell it again. 

Christine: –for many years– I probably haven’t told it. But when I was young, we had uh– My parents were divorced also. And at my dad’s house, um, we were there– o-o– I think, one evening a week on a school night and then one night a week on the weekends was like the custody arrangement. And on the weekends, we were not allowed to like see a friend or like go to a friend’s house. That was just the arrangement. Like, “You’re coming to see your dad and stepmom, and you’re not doing social thi– Like there’s no social things, and there’s no homework. So all that shit has to get done at your mom’s.” So we’d like go and be like, “Okay, we’re here to participate and whatever.” Like we lose– We lose agency here. We just show up, and we’re like, “Okay.” So that’s how it was my whole life. And I never ever, ever, ever had visited a friend like on a Saturday. I had a terrible social life obviously ’cause it would be like a Saturday and I’m like, “I’m not allowed to leave my house for–” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “–like I’m not.” And so– 

Em: Whoo! 

Christine: I know. 

Em: ”Just hanging out in the graveyard.” 

Christine: So– No, it wasn’t even the graveyard house. 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: That was a fun house. My dad’s house was out in the fucking creepyass woods. And so then I’m like stuck there. And one day I went over there on a Saturday, and for some reason it was like– I think it was eighth grade, and I said to my– Or no, it was maybe ninth grade. And I said to my dad and stepmom– Like I was not this ballsy usually, but I was like, “I want to go stay over at Renée’s house for a sleepover.” And they were like, “Absolutely not.” And for some fucking reason I like doubled down, and I was like, “I’m going. You can’t stop me.” 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: I don’t know. We just were like h– gonna have a fun night, and I was like, “I’m, I’m going. You can’t stop me.” So finally I wore them down, and they dropped me off. And I remember like we had a really fun sleepover, and the next morning, I slept until like 11:00 a.m. And I woke up freaking out because I’m like, “Oh my god, my dad and stepmom are gonna kill me. They were gonna pick me up at like 6:30 in the morning,” and like, you know. So I like wake up, and I’m looking at my phone, and there’s just like nothing on my phone. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And I’m like, “Oh, maybe they forgot about me.” So, then I’m like, “Hell yeah.” So then we just spend the rest of the day hanging out. 

Em: That’s awesome. 

Christine: And eventually my stepmom calls, and I’m like too scared to answer. And, um, she calls again, and I finally pick up, and she, she’s like, “Oh, did you hear what happened?” And I’m like, “From who? I’ve just been here.” 

Em: Yeah, “What are you talking about?” 

Christine: “What– You forgot I existed, I guess.” But I was like– 

Em: “Did you, did you hear over here that I’m waiting for you?” 

Christine: “Yeah. Where are you?” And so I’m like, “Okay, what happened?” And she goes, “Oh, apparently what happened was in the middle of the night, a, an electrical fire started in our ceiling on the second floor in a light switch,” kind of like yours, or a light fixture, um, in the hallway outside my bedroom. And, uh, my room was like completely destroyed. Like my bedroom was completely destroyed. And my dad and stepmom were having their bedroom renovated. So they were actually sleeping like– It was like a really– It’s like a short but like long house. So, they were at the– all the way at the other end in the guest room, and, um, they didn’t even notice it. They actually woke up when a fire truck drove up the driveway– 

Em: Are you kidding me? 

Christine: –and my dad apparently stood up and looked out the window in his bathrobe and said, “Why is there a Greyhound bus in our driveway?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like, he literally didn’t know what was going on. My brother is like asleep, I guess, up– Oh no, he was at Latin Convention. That’s what saved him. He was at Latin Convention. Anyway– 

Em: I’ve never heard anything more fucking Alexander Schiefer than– [laughs] 

Christine: So nerdy, I know. And it sav– And then they, they– Basically the whole second floor had to be– It was like completely destroyed. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: And they were like, they were like, “Yeah if you hadn’t been– You probably wouldn’t have been in the fire, but smoke inhalation probably would have got you.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And I’m like, “What the fuck?” And so, um, anyway, that’s my story of also the time that, uh, I escaped a fire somehow. 

Em: So weird. 

Christine: But it was the one night, and I remember going like, “I won’t, I won’t give up on this. Like this is a hill I will die on,” ’cause I think I was going to otherwise. 

Em: I’m surprised that Renée has not over-romanticized the, “I will not give up on us.” 

Christine: I– You know what? I feel like maybe she doesn’t even remember. You know those stories where you just like– 

Em: She remembers everything. 

Christine: Uh, she probably does. She probably remembers more than I do. 

Em: Um, question: were the renovations the reason or? 

Christine: No, it was like– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: No, they– Their room was like downstairs, and they were just like redoing like the bathroom or something down there. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: And then on the second floor like we just had our bedrooms up there, that’s it, and a bathroom. And for some reason that fixture up there um– It’s like an old ass house too, and it like started in the attic. And my stepmom was like, “Oh my furs,” and I was like, “Dear Christ.” 

Em: [laughs] Um, oh my god. 

Christine: “Renée, can I live with you?” Anyway, so– 

Em: I don’t think I– I might have known– If you told that story, it was so long ago. 

Christine: It was probably like the first week of the podcast ’cause I was like, “Let– Let’s all tell our scary stories, Em,” and then we probably never told them again. But yeah, it’s just weird. 

Em: I feel like that’s so weird that we both have a, a light right outside of our bedroom in the hallway. 

Christine: The cl– Yeah, that’s true. I never– Yeah, I didn’t put it together. 

Em: Huh. 

Christine: Yeah, I forgot my brother’s at Latin Convention. That makes me laugh. Anyway– 

Em: Um– It makes everybody laugh, don’t worry. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, so, okay, the last thing I’m gonna say about this haunting ’cause I thought we would need a pallet cleanser. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I didn’t know we would do it ourselves because we’re that good. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, but before Mary lived here, there actually was another person who lived here that was super interesting. Um, his name was Lieutenant Colonel William Jordan or Will Jordan, and he was a test patient for MK-Ultra. 

Christine: What? Oh my god. 

Em: And after his time being tested on– Hang on. My dog learned to hit the bells when he wants to go pee. We’ll have to do that a-after this. Um– 

Christine: [gasps] He’s so smart. 

Em: Hang on, puppy. 

Christine: He’s so smart. 

Em: One second. You can wait. Okay? Um, so yeah, he was a test patient for MK-Ultra and after his time being tested on, he suffered a lot. Like his– After his time being there, he was having like grand mal epilepsy. 

Christine: Wow. Well– 

Em: He potentially had reproductive issues that was hurting his wife. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, and he actually lived in this house. It’s Alexandria. He wanted to be close to DC so he could, uh, try to get medical follow-ups for patients. He was like protesting and trying to campaign for MK-Ultra patients to like have their voices heard. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: Um, anyway, so some like to attribute the added dark energy of the hauntings– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –to like whatever he was dealing with– 

Christine: Brought there– 

Em: –but I thought it was interesting. Yeah. 

Christine: That’s fascinating. And also like to think the neighbor was like, “Hey, you want to know what goes– what happened at this house?” And Bruce is like, “Fuck no.” And it’s like– 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: –“Yo, even if you don’t believe in ghosts, like there’s so much interesting shit that happened.” Like– 

Em: I know. It could’ve been like– 

Christine: –why would you be an asshole about it? 

Em: It could have been like, “The guy who created Tootsie Rolls lived here.” And I’m like, “Shit, that’s awesome.” 

Christine: That– You know what? Can you imagine? 

Em: Oh, Christine, I need to talk t– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Speaking– This Halloween, this is the episode to do it. I discovered a new old people candy, and I’m obsessed. 

Christine: Tell me. You know I love old people candy. 

Em: Mary Janes. No? 

Christine: I don’t know that one. No. 

Em: [gasps] It takes my breath away. I literally– It should be getting here today. I literally– 

Christine: It’s not a marijuana situation, right? It’s that old that it’s not referenced to marijuana? 

Em: No. It’s– Hang on, puppy. He’s gotta pee. Um, It’s peanut butter taffy, which sounds gross. I hate taffy. I can’t stand taffy. 

Christine: I hate taffy too. 

Em: It’s basically a peanut butter Tootsie Roll. Um– 

Christine: Okay. I feel like I could get into that. 

Em: It w– It– I, I was just in Florida. I was hanging out with my extended family, and one of my cousins’ cousins’ cousins’ cousins, um, was like, “Oh, have you ever had Mary Janes?” ’Cause we were at like one of those old candy shops. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And, uh, she was like, “Just try one.” And I tried one, and I had to circle back and get a whole ass bag. And, um, now– That, that bag has been long gone, and I can’t stop thinking about her a– her being Mary Jane. And so– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –I literally bought a like a restaurant store bulk size. 

Christine: No, no. 

Em: Like it’s literally like– 

Christine: Like a wholesaler? 

Em: –a five pound bag. A five pound bag. Um– 

Christine: You’re going to be that weirdo on Halloween dressed as a condom and handing out– 

Em: Oh, I’m not sharing them. Fuck that. 

Christine: I know. But like imagine if you just were like that creepy neighbor, you know? 

Em: No, I give the good candy. But I– 

Christine: I know you do. I know you do. 

Em: That will be my personal bag. Like that is my now– Whenever I’m doing notes like I always have like a little treat to like pick at. That’s going to be my new thing for a while is Mary Janes. 

Christine: I’m going to look them up real quick. Hold on. Mary J– 

Em: They’re so good. And then I also tried a Squirrel Nut Zipper. Forget it. That was amazing. 

Christine: Oh, I know about that band. I thought that was just a band. 

Em: It’s a candy, too. 

Christine: Really? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Oh my gosh. 

Em: It’s like vanilla caramel– 

Christine: Oh, I do like those. Are they peanut butter or– I’m sorry, peanuts in them? 

Em: I think so. The in– In the, in the Zippers? 

Christine: Or maybe not. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. It’s like caramel, vanilla, and some sort of nut. Peanuts, I think. 

Christine: I just love a crunchy candy, crunchy old-timey. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Oh my god, these Mary Janes are so– Oh, I’ve seen these. 

Em: They’re so good. 

Christine: Oh, I– You know, I never really like clocked the name I think. I’ve just seen the, the little colors. 

Em: It literally– It tastes like Butterfinger, but it’s the con– It’s the texture of a Tootsie Roll. It’s Butterfinger Tootsie Roll. 

Christine: See, I feel like that sounds good to me. I like that. 

Em: It rocked my shit. Nobody go out and buy them because they’re hard to find. I– If you, if you take them, I’m gonna have a problem. 

Christine: How dare you? 

Em: Everyone, just know that I’m eating them, and I’m eating good. That’s all you gotta know. 

Christine: That’s all you got to know and don’t even question it. Wow. 

Em: Anyway, that is, how you say, the Haunting of Beryl Road. 

Christine: Oh my gosh, that is quite a story. The MK-Ultra is quite a twist. I feel like– 

Em: I love that. 

Christine: Yeah, that, and I, I– Who knows what it means, if anything, but like all of these stories back-to-back in the same house is like pretty strange. 

Em: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Christine: I think. Um– 

Em: I think so. 

Christine: It feels like it has a lot of history either way. 

Em: All you need is an alien abduction or a cryptid, and then you’ve got the full my side of And That’s Why We Drink going on there. 

Christine: You’re 100% right. And, uh, and then the fire. Oops. 

Em: And I, I am aware– Yes, and the fire. I am aware of the MK-Ultra topic and how badly people want me to cover it. Um, I’m aware, but I’m telling you, just like how I usually do 6 to 12 hours of notes, like that will take me a lot. 

Christine: Hey, remember the 150 page document Em made for this show today or whatever? Uh. 

Em: Yeah, it’s, it’s– That would be a long one. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: That’s a QAnon situation. So– 

Christine: Yeah. And lest we forget. [laughs] 

Em: And a lot of government documents.[laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. And then it’s like the dry type of sources– 

Em: Dry text. 

Christine: –not just like watching Ghost Adventures. 

Em: I will do it eventually. It’s just, uh, I’m very intimidated by that topic, so. 

Christine: It’s a doozy. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, well, you go let your dog pee. I’m going to go let myself pee. 

Em: Okay. [laughs] 

Christine: Um– 

Em: We’ll all do like a– We’ll all pee. 

Christine: We’ll have a little pee break. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Halloween music. 

[both singing to the tune of “Toccata in D Minor” by Johann Sebastian Bach] ♪ Nuh-nuh-nuh nuh-nuh nuh ♪♪ 

[glass clinks - start of ad break] 

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors] 

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break] 

Christine’s Story – Sheila von Wiese-Mack

Christine: That was a fun intermission.

Em: Thank you. Well, happy, uh, Halloween. We went down memory lane together. 

Christine: Oh, and today’s a new moon in Libra. 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: So yeah, it feels like a nice little refresh. 

Em: Perf. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Perf. 

Christine: All right. Hello, everyone. We’re back from intermission, um, where we realized it’s a new moon, and we were discussing uh, sentimentality and the items that we are keeping and getting rid of, etc. So if you would like to listen to that, you can go to our Patreon. Um, otherwise, I have a crime story for you today. I, of– Oh, yep. 

Em: Hang on. 

Christine: Wait for it. 

Em: Hang on. 

[Em changes the light color behind them from magenta to bright red.] 

Christine: Yes. Oh, that’s spooky for sure. 

Em: Shut up. [laughs] Tryin’. 

Christine: No, it is. 

[Em holds the light up to the camera as if pointing it into someone’s face.] 

Em: Where were you on the night of? 

Christine: I mean, now I feel like I’m in an alien ship. Um– 

Em: Okay, go for it. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s look– It looks spooky. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So, here’s the thing, though. I didn’t remember that it like– I obviously didn’t remember that it was Halloween episode. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, my brain is just so out of it these days. I brought a story that is scary. Uh-oh. 

[Em fiddles with the light, holding it and resting it on their shoulder for a moment.] 

Em: Okay, go. 

Christine: You look like– [laughs] You do look like you’re in an interrogation right now with like a microphone or something. Like a– 

Em: I was, I was– I’m trying to keep the vibe alive. Anyway, go– keep going. Sorry. 

Christine: The vibe is vibing. Don’t worry about it. Um, I forgot it was Halloween episode, so I brought a story that is scary, but it’s just as scary as every other true crime. So– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: It’s not a Halloween story, even though I probably also asked you what you wanted for Halloween. 

Em: I did. Um– 

Christine: What did you say? 

Em: I don’t remember, so it’s fine. 

Christine: Oh, shit. Okay. 

Em: Hey, we’ll never know. Um– 

Christine: Well, maybe I wrote it down somewhere, and I’ll find it in like a month, and then at Christmas time, I’ll do it. [laughs] 

Em: My Christmas wish, yeah. 

Christine: Yay. It’ll be the– something about The Grinch probably. Um, yeah. So okay. I apologize. I clearly– You know what? Probably knowing me, I started a Google doc for it and then just like forgot about it. 

Em: That’s fine. 

Christine: Um, but so that means there is a chance I’ll find it and do it in November. [laughs] 

Em: I trust you. I– It’ll, it’ll happen. 

Christine: Okay. So instead, I’ve brought to you today the murder of Sheila von W– Oh my gosh, she has quite a name: Sheila von Wiese-Mack. And– 

Em: Girl. 

Christine: –yeah, it’s hyphenated and multiple words. Um, I’m hoping I’m saying that right. On August 13, 2014, a taxi driver stopped outside a luxurious resort in Bali, Indonesia. He had just finished dropping off some guests and was about to drive away when two people approached him, uh, presumably guests at the resort. They said, “Oh, hey, um, can we put some luggage in the trunk?” And he popped the trunk. They said, “We’re checking out. We’ll be right back with the rest of our stuff.” He waits 30 minutes, but they never come back. 

Em: Ooh. And they always warn you at an– 

Christine: And– 

Em: –at an airport, they always say– 

Christine: They do. 

Em: –“If someone leaves unattended luggage, you better fucking call for help.” 

Christine: Yeah. That is never a good thing. 

Em: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: And so of course he starts to feel this like– Actually, you know what? The vibe that I got from like researching this is that he wasn’t worried necessarily at this point. He was more just like, “Ugh”– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and like took the luggage out to be like, “I’m just gonna give this back to the hotel and be like, ‘Tell them I’m leaving.’“ 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: “‘Like I don’t want to wait any longer.’” So he basically gets up. He, uh, pops the trunk, and he finds a suitcase inside. The suitcase is in horrific shape. 

Em: Oh boy. 

Christine: It is held shut with duct tape. It is wrapped in a white bed sheet– 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: –and there is a red substance oozing out of the suitcase and soaking into this sheet. 

Em: [sighs] Oh god. Okay, hang on. 

[Em presses buttons on the remote, and the light behind them flashes between red and blue.] 

Christine: Oh my god. How did you do that? 

Em: I’m just pressing blue and red a lot. 

Christine: Oh, you’re pressing– I was like, “Is there a police setting? Why would they do that?” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] That’s fucking cr– 

Christine: It’s a blue– Em is flashing a blue and red light– 

Em: It was– 

Christine: –which is literally the next line: they called the fucking police. Yeah. 

Em: It was my way of saying, “Call somebody. We need help.” 

Christine: Yes. Immediate assistance needed. 

[Em stops, leaving the light color on red.] 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Um, that was crazy. I really thought it– It was like really good. I thought it was an effect on the remote. 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: And I went, “So it has police effect? That feels like a dangerous thing to put on like a con–“ 

Em: It does, but no. 

Christine: –“a consumer item.” Okay. So let’s see. So he, of course, is horrified, um, immediately calls the police, literally the next line. And he and you were both right to do that because when the police unwrapped the suitcase, um, from the bed sheet and duct tape, they found inside a woman’s body. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: This woman was a white middle-aged woman who had been stuffed so tightly into the suitcase that the duct tape was used to wrap it closed and keep it contained. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: Her face was bloody and badly bruised, um, suggesting a violent attack when she was killed. She was transported to the local medical examiner to determine her cause of death, while the police began their investigation at the resort. And they believed maybe, because of the way the suitcase had been dropped off and everything, that this woman was a, um, a guest at the resort. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But there was also the possibility, of course, that she was just visiting someone there or maybe that they were just disposed of there. Resort management, as you can imagine– This feels very White Lotus. They were like, “Um, yeah, let’s figure this out and wrap this shit up right away because–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–we don’t want like murder news, you know? We don’t wanna be in the news for, for this.” 

Em: “We don’t want the vibes to be off.” Yeah. 

Christine: “Yeah, the vibes are really important to us here. Do you smell the patchouli we’ve got going on?” Yeah. It’s, it’s definitely not a luxury resort’s first, um, first order of business to, to– I don’t know– to not– I don’t know. I’ve lost t– my train of thought. 

Em: No, I, I get what you’re saying. I’m, I’m with you. I’m with you. It’s– 

Christine: You get it. 

Em: They’re just– It’s just a, a gross wealthy area or gr-gross wealthy space that’s like, “Okay, this is kind of in our way. Get the gross stuff out of here.” 

Christine: “Like let’s–“ Yeah. “Let’s like sweep up this mess, please.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “We have guests trying to enjoy their stay.” Um, and so– 

Em: Which I understand as a business, you’re trying to just keep it, keep it moving. 

Christine: No, for real. And also, it’s like having seen shows like White Lotus like, “Well, then what are the employees supposed to do?” They’re just like, “I’m here for the job, you know.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “Like I don’t know.” Um, so of course the resort management is like, “Okay, yes, let’s fucking figure this out.” And you know, if the killer remained at large, then like they were in even more trouble. Tourist community would be threatened. Um, community would be threatened. So they immediately pulled out the passports they keep because the resort office would keep copies of everyone’s passports for identity verification and in case of emergencies like this one. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And investigators started searching through them. They were looking for a white middle-aged woman who bore any resemblance to the woman in the suitcase. And they finally landed on 62-year-old Sheila von Wiese-Mack, a tourist from the US who had been staying at the resort for roughly a week. So they asked the resort staff, “When did you last see Sheila?” And they said, “Only a few hours ago. Between 2 and 3 in the morning, she was in the lobby.” 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So they’re like, “Well, let’s check,” so they call her room. Um, there’s no answer. So I’m assuming this is starting to get like– 

Em: Suspicious. 

Christine: –slightly panicky. Yeah, suspicious. Nobody answers, so the resort lets them into the room. And when they open the room, they don’t see anybody there, but they do see the scene of a violent struggle. There is shattered glass everywhere. There’s blood spatter on the bed, the glass. One bit of glass was connected to like a metal handle, so it looked like it had been like a weapon– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –that had been made of like metal and glass, like maybe a bowl or vase. And the police suspected that that was the murder weapon. So the room was empty, like I said, and Sheila remained unaccounted for. So now they’re thinking, “Well, then the odds of her being the one in the suitcase are getting higher and higher.” And it seemed likely that she would be confirmed as the victim. But police quickly learned that not only was this a murder investigation, but also a missing person’s case because Sheila was staying at the resort with her 18-year-old daughter, Heather Mack. 

Em: Shit. Okay. 

Christine: Heather had been born in 1996, the daughter of Sheila von Wiese-Mack, an influential socialite, and Sheila’s husband, acclaimed jazz composer, James Mack. Just like a very influential power couple, wealthy type background. Um, she had almost like a fairy tale childhood. She grew up in Oak Park, Illinois, which is a really historical and affluent village outside of Chicago. Um, James had previous marriages and other children, but Heather was his only child with Sheila, and they were extremely close. Her parents doted on her. Um, they had very high-profile careers, but they were very attentive and extremely close with her. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And people who knew the family described Heather as a “daddy’s girl” because she was always very, very close with her father. The Macks loved to travel, and they always took her on these far away destinations to f– luxurious resorts and far away places. Heather’s life was the envy of all of her friends. But when Heather was just ten years old, they went on a vacation to Athens, Greece, and her father had a pulmonary embolism. 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: Uh, yeah. A blood clot in his lungs, and it occurred in their hotel room. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Right in fr– 

Em: So everyone saw. 

Christine: Everyone saw. And Sheila and Heather had to witness this helplessly– 

Em: [inhales sharply] 

Christine: –um as he died in their hotel room. And Sheila was ten years old. So this is like– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: –scarring beyond belief. James was a composer, a conductor, a producer, a teacher, a chairman for the music department at Harold Washington College. He was just like a very influential and, and big persona. He was– He left behind like quite a legacy, especially dying kind of out of the blue. Um, and he also ensured that Sheila and Heather would be financially secure upon his death. Um, and so he had already prepared, you know, the will and all that. So, of course, Heather was deeply devastated and so was Sheila. But over time, they kind of bonded over their shared grief. Um, as Heather grew into a teenager though, she started to struggle more with the loss and the trauma of witnessing the loss, and she experienced severe depression through high school. She began staying out late at parties, drinking with her friends. Um, she would skip school. She would run away for days at a time sometimes. And you know, she had access to all this money, right? So like she’s not only participating in this lifestyle, she’s also like actively able to afford it and fund it for her friends. And you know, that certainly doesn’t help. So before long, you know, she’s, she’s really getting into trouble. She’s skipping school. She’s running away for days at a time. And she and her mother, their relationship grow very strained. Once Heather even stole Sheila’s credit card to book an expensive hotel room in downtown Chicago, and she threw a lavish party with her friends and her boyfriend. And Sheila actually saw Heather’s photos, uh, when they posted them to social media– 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: –because this was in the social media days. I mean, we’ve already entered the Facebook era. And, uh, she fucking flipped. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Um, which you know– Well, if you– You know, it– Yeah– 

Em: You had to be there. 

Christine: –if you upload them to Facebook– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: –it’s gonna– Yeah, it’s gonna happen. Um, so she called the police to break up the party because these were being posted as the party was going on. 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: So she fucking freaks out. And, uh, Sheila’s had enough, and she has Heather arrested. 

Em: Oh! Sheila. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Wait, hang on. 

[Em changes the color of their light so it flashes red and blue.] 

Christine: There it is. 

Em: There you go. 

[Em stops, changing the light back to red.] 

Christine: Holy shit. We finally have like the perfect set, and it’s just in your kitchen. 

Em: [laughs] Shut the fuck up. 

Christine: No, I’m serious. I’m the one in front of a fucking empty wall. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Yours is cool. Um, okay. So, Heather was arrested, and Sheila hoped that this would be like a Scared Straight type thing. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: You know, like maybe she’ll be discouraged now from future partying and sneaking out, but surprise surprise, that’s not what happens. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Uh, Sheila did not like this boyfriend, by the way, Tommy, or any of Heather’s friends. Tommy was a– His name’s Tommy Schaefer. He was a 21-year-old aspiring rapper and musician. Um, he reminded Heather a lot of her father. He was a musical artist. He was black. By the way, her mother was white. And so, um, there was like that tension there as well where she lost her father– 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: –and she had you know– and she felt like this disconnect. Um, and I say that because her friend said, “You know Tommy was so similar to her father.” There was like that bond there she had with him, and he was talented. He was dedicated to his art. He was very smart. He was very handsome. Um, but, of course, Mom did not approve. She thought he and the rest of Heather’s friends enabled Heather’s drinking and other risky choices. So she told her sister and brother, Debbie and Bill, that Heather hung out with some “terrible kids,” quote unquote. That was like– 

Em: I see. 

Christine: –the word she used for them. She was constantly worrying about Heather, wondering where she was, who she was with, when she’d be home, if she was safe. Um, and she tried finding a therapist for Heather. She tried grounding her. She took away her phone. She just could not figure out a way to help her. And Sheila realized she couldn’t make any difference in Heather’s life when there was such an emotional distance between them. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: There was such a rift that she knew like, “I can’t reach her from here.” So with absolutely no idea what to do, she decided to do– to kind of go back in time and do what they always loved to do, which was go on a trip. And she surprised Heather with a two-week vacation in Bali, and Heather was thrilled. So they left on August 4, but a week later, halfway into the trip, Sheila was dead, and now Heather is missing. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And that is where we find ourselves, um, in the story. 

Em: That’s rough. Okay. That’s very scary. 

Christine: The medical examiner confirmed that the woman discovered in the suitcase was indeed Sheila. It was determined she had been beaten violently to death, um, with some sort of object. She had suffered severe facial injuries and fractures, and her neck was broken. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: There was some speculation that Heather might have run away in Bali, um, on another rebellious streak and maybe fallen in with some dangerous people who like killed her mom and kidnapped her. Maybe something had happened like that. But the police weren’t so sure because the resort, remember where they were staying, was not exactly like a hotbed for crime. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Like this wasn’t a thing that happened there. 

Em: There’s patchouli. Yeah. 

Christine: S– It’s all that patchouli. You remember? Yes. They spoke to the night clerk who had last seen Sheila alive in the early morning, uh, hours before her body was discovered. And the clerk said, “Actually, Sheila had come downstairs to the lobby between 2:00 and 3:00 a.m., absolutely frantic.” 

Em: Shit. 

Christine: Sheila told the clerk that her teenage daughter was missing. Heather was not in her room, and Sheila couldn’t find her anywhere at the resort. She’d been looking everywhere. And so while the clerk prepared to report Heather missing– Remember we’re in Indonesia, by the way, like we’re not in the US either. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: So they’re like out of the country. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And so she’s– The clerk is, is preparing to report her missing when suddenly Heather walks into the lobby, and on her arm is Tommy Schaefer, her boyfriend. 

Em: What? In Indonesia? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: How’d he get there? Okay. 

Christine: Mommy’s credit card. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Right. Sheila fucking flipped. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Fucking flipped, as you can imagine. I mean, yeah. Uh, it just blows my mind. So Sheila was fucking furious. Uh, Heather told her Tommy had flown in to surprise her, uh, to join the vacation as a surprise, but Sheila did not believe it. She was like, “This is an expensive fucking flight, never mind the cost of the resort.” She accused Heather of stealing her credit card to pay for it. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And Heather was like, “No, he just wants to surprise me.” And this argument is escalating. Um– 

Em: [scoffs] “He wants to surprise me with your money.” What? 

Christine: [laughs] And– 

Em: What are you talking about? That’s like saying, “No, he wanted to buy me a present of your money, not with his money.” 

Christine: Yeah, but I mean that’s like kind of a thing sometimes, isn’t it? Like, “I’ll just, I’ll just use this money.” Well, I don’t know. Listen, I don’t know what it’s like to be that way, so I don’t know why I’m trying to pretend. Um. 

Em: I could see some teenager justifying or thinking that that’s justifiable. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: And it’s like, “Girl.” 

Christine: I mean, right, they’re like teenagers. It’s like fucking Romeo and Juliet. Their frontal lobes aren’t formed yet. They’re, they’re out of mi– their minds with hormones. Like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –you know, they’re making bad choices, and then they have access to all this money. Uh, she’s gone through like severe trauma, and like this is just all a hot bed for disaster, I think. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And I know because unfortunately it is, and we all know it. Um, okay. So Sheila was furious. Heather said, “Oh, he’s just surprising me.” And of course, this argument is escalating. Um, Heather’s so embarrassed that her mom’s like throwing this fit in the lobby and this– like everyone’s just kind of like staring, trying not to stare. And finally, Sheila and Heather return to their room on the third floor. And Tommy’s like, “All right, peace. I’m going to the sixth floor. That’s where my room is.” 

Em: Wild. 

Christine: And he– I– Wild. And he goes up to the sixth floor. Later, Heather came back down to the lobby and asked the night clerk if they had any duct tape available. 

Em: Okay. So when I say, “Ah!” because she’s missing, what I should be saying is “Hmm.” 

Christine: Hmm. 

Em: Okay. I’m see– 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: I’m saying– I’m seeing. I’m seeing. 

Christine: You had the exact right thought process though, which is like, “Oh, that’s concerning”– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –until it starts to be like, “Oh, shoot.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh, shoot, but also like– Oh, shoot either way, I guess. Um, again, hot bed for disaster. Okay. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So finally they go, and she comes down, uh, later. And remember this is like 3 a.m. that this fight took place. So a few hours later is like 6 a.m., you know? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: It’s like, “Okay, uh, welcome downstairs. Halfway through your trip, you suddenly need a roll of duct tape, whatever.” Um, so none of them, n-none of them were seen again until Sheila’s remains were recovered from that suitcase. And that is sort of like what they pieced together had happened before that. So the police launched a massive search for Heather and Tommy. Heather’s passport had been recovered from her room at the resort, so she couldn’t have left Indonesia. Photos of Heather and Tommy were broadcast by the media, um, online and on TV. Back in the US, imagine this, Sheila’s family followed the news of Sheila’s violent death and Heather’s disa– like their niece’s disappearance, you know. Um, Sheila had that brother and sister that she was close with. So they’re watching like their own sister’s murder case happening on TV and then wondering like where their niece is. I mean, it’s all just horrific. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Just one day after Sheila’s body was discovered on August 13, the owner of a motel in Bali called the police, and he told them that Tommy and Heather were staying at his motel. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: Honestly, thank God for a source that clear. Like, uh– 

Christine: Amen. And also, get this. He not only recognized their photos from the news, but they checked in using their real names and Sheila’s credit card. 

Em: Big dummies. Oh my god. 

Christine: Come on. 

Em: Over here. Okay. 

Christine: Please. 

Em: Well, hey, it makes our job a lot better. And by our job, I mean, the police or something. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] It makes our job to investigate and solve these crimes so much easier. 

Em: You know, it makes the case, um, easier for others, I guess. But– 

Christine: That’s fa– Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. 

Em: But still like– 

Christine: Like it’s a good thing. I’m glad that the pieces kind of fit together, but– 

Em: But you would think if you’re going to do something like that, you have– You would think you have a plan. 

Christine: You would think so. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: But you’d also think, you know– You’re teenagers, and you’re dumb– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –and you’re in love, and nothing good comes of that, as far as I’ve learned in my life. [chuckles] 

Em: If I were, if I were on Law and Order and I played obviously Mariska Hargitary’s, you know, partner for life– 

Christine: Obviously, yeah. 

Em: –and she’s never had anybody else except me. 

Christine: For life, and soulmate, and twin flame, right? 

Em: Yeah. And we just– And every scene is us just snuggling. 

Christine: She’s like electric. 

Em: Yeah. Ah! I know. So, if I were on an episode, I feel like I would be that one who always said, “I love when that happens.” And then it like cuts to scene, but it’s whenever there’s a case where it’s like teenagers use their real name– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and then I would just go, “I love when that happens.” And then the next scene would be us– 

Christine: “I love when that happens.” Yeah. 

Em: –just arresting the shit out of them. 

Christine: It’d s– be like, “Easy. Check.” 

Em: It’s easy ’cause then I can get right back to home with Mariska. You know what I mean? 

Christine: That’s right. Just back into those arms you lo– 

Em: I don’t have time. 

Christine: Those strong arms. Those biceps. 

Em: Ah! I can’t even think about it. Okay. 

Christine: God, I know. Stop thinking about it. Um– 

Em: I can’t. 

Christine: [laughs] Ah, put that condom costume back on. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That’ll shake you out of it. [laughs] That’ll shake all of us out of it. Oh god. Uh, so he says, “Okay, Tommy and Heather are staying at my motel. They used their real name. I’m not even that good of a sleuth. They used their real names, and their mom’s– their dead mom’s credit card.” 

Em: Classic. 

Christine: So– Classic. So Heather and Tommy were asleep in bed when the police arrived to arrest them. And when police asked for their story, they said, “We were kidnapped by a violent gang.” 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: “And the three of us planned a daring escape, but it went terribly wrong.” 

Em: I hope they said, “We planned a daring escape.” [laughs] 

Christine: “A daring escape.” [laughs] I like to think it was like that. You know how like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –sometimes I say “Ross Dress for Less” because it makes it funnier that I say the whole thing? 

Em: Right, right, right. 

Christine: It just reminds me of that. Like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –“Oh, it was a daring escape. You better believe it.” Um, I also love that there’s no detail. It’s like, “Just trust me. It was daring.” You know? 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. “You don’t have to know anything else. That’s all, that’s all I need to give you.” 

Christine: Mm-mmm. Yeah. The three of them, uh, planned this, but it went terribly wrong. Sheila was killed. Tommy and Heather took shelter in a motel to hide, unsure of whom they could trust. Okay. 

Em: Mhm. 

Christine: Unfortunately for Heather and Tommy, they weren’t aware of exactly how much evidence the police already had on the case– or on them in the case, which is, by the way, a lot of fucking evidence, including dozens of surveillance cameras inside and outside the hotel. 

Em: [scoffs] It’s– 

Christine: These people. 

Em: –fish in a barrel. And barrel spelled with a double R, actually. 

Christine: It really– [laughs] Fish in a Beryl Road. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, and– Fish in a Haunting on Beryl Road. [laughs] Um, so they had these dozens of surveillance cameras. They went through them, and they found a fucking full story on camera. So the morning Sheila was murdered– And I actually have pictures for you. The morning Sheila was murdered, footage showed Heather and Sheila returning to their room on the third floor, while Tommy went to his room on the sixth. Then the cameras followed Heather as she went up to Tommy’s room on the sixth floor and back down. The couple went back and forth between their rooms several times, and then they were recorded leaving Heather’s room with a large suitcase wrapped in a white sheet, which appeared identical to the one in the taxi cab. 

Em: Perfect. 

Christine: And the footage also showed them leaving the resort with the suitcase, loading it into the trunk of the taxi. Then they were captured climbing over a wall to get out of the resort. 

Em: Spider-Man over here. Okay. 

Christine: I mean, literally, I had to look it up because when I watched one of the episodes on this, the footage looked so clear and like obvious and stupid that I was like, “This must be a reenactment.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And it’s like, “No.” 

Em: Like did they really not for a second think that one camera was on the property? 

Christine: I think not. I think not. Like they’re just wandering around like, “Let me put this suitcase in here and walk away.” It’s like– 

Em: To be a fly on the wall. 

Christine: –you’re teenagers. Like, don’t you know that everyone’s watching on cameras all the time? I don’t know. 

Em: To be a fly on the wall though when they found out that cameras exist– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –they had to go, “Oh, shit.” 

Christine: “Uh-oh.” 

Em: Like– 

Christine: Well, don’t worry. 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: ’Cause they’re– They, they literally pivot when they find out. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: They find out, and they’re like, “Don’t worry. We know. We– [chuckles] We’ve got– We’ve actually got the real story.” 

Em: “That’s what, that’s what we wanted. That’s what we– That was supposed to happen.” 

Christine: “That was part of the plan.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So anyway, they, they, they are caught fleeing over this wall, and then they are caught grabbing a different taxi and heading in the direction of the airport, which again, she left her passport in the room, so nice job. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Utterly caught in this lie and learning that cameras exist, Tommy and Heather were like, “Shit,” like you said. Um, and they knew now that they had to admit to killing Sheila. There was no other way. They were like, “We’re– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–Uh, okay.” So Tommy says, “Actually, here’s what really happened. I flew to Bali to surprise Sheila because he and Heather were pregnant.” And– 

Em: Oh, is that true? 

Christine: –they wanted to announce this breaking news. They knew Sheila didn’t like Tommy, and they thought like, “Okay, well maybe if we’re in Bali together, like it’ll be a nicer place to break the news. And so when she started screaming in the lobby, we were like, ‘No, let’s go to the room. We have something to share with you.’” Um, and apparently, when they told Sheila that they were pregnant, uh, Sheila reacted so badly, uh, that she freaked out. They started fighting. Um, he was afraid for Heather and their baby. Sheila began hurling insults at them, and Heather interrupted and, and said like, “You have to understand. I’m having his baby.” And then she like exploded, and she started hitting Tommy and then strangling him. Th– Again, this is Tommy’s telling of the event. Uh, and then strangling him, and Heather was screaming at Sheila to stop and get off Tommy. Tommy couldn’t fight back because he was losing consciousness because he was being choked. And so in a moment of desperation, um, and unclear of his own actions because he was deprived of oxygen– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –he just reached for whatever he could grab, and he, he grabbed a glass bowl by the metal handle and hit Sheila over the head with, with it, just in self-defense. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So goes his story. 

Em: Mm-hmm. I love the part where you said earlier that like they admitted to killing her, but it’s like, “Did they? They just–“ 

Christine: Yeah. But did they? They were like, “We have to find a way to tell this story–” 

Em: Yeah. Oh, okay. 

Christine: “–delicately.” 

Em: Great. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. So, he says, “Well, but don’t worry. It was all self-defense.” And he said Heather was in shock. Tommy panicked. Neither of them thought anyone would believe them, so they tried to escape without like a real plan, obviously. Um, and it was compelling, especially when they realized that Heather was indeed pregnant. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And so, the story h-held a little more water because of that. And you know, it would have been compelling, but investigators in Indonesia were actually coordinating with the FBI back in the US, and they had already uncovered messages between Tommy and Heather that didn’t quite line up with this self-defense explanation. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Sheila had confiscated Heather’s phone before the Bali trip, but Heather and Tommy had remained in contact, uh, online, like on Facebook Messenger or what have you. So they spoke of how wonderful their lives would be as soon as Heather turned 21 because that’s when she would gain access to the trust fund that her dad left in her name– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and she would no longer have to depend on her mom for anything or use her credit card. The two of them would finally be free, you know, that teenage like romance idea of like, “We’d be free to live our lives together.” Um, Heather said, “I will support us financially. You’ll pursue your music. We’ll live happily ever after.” But 21 was four years away, and that was just too far. So for two teenagers, four years is very far away. So they began concocting a plan because, of course, if Sheila were dead, Heather would automatically inherit everything– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –the entire estate immediately, including her trust fund. So all of a sudden, the couple started having these entire conversations about how they might kill Sheila. They– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: And here’s where I actually– I took pictures of the screen because I was like, again, so stunned by this. 

Em: I’m always con– I’m always curious– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –how people get to that conversation. Like how– Like what are you saying– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –to test the waters to see if the other person isn’t totally freaked out by what you’re suggesting? 

Christine: And it’s like– When you look through, it’s like the amount of like LOLs, I’m like– 

Em: It’s like, “Haha, wouldn’t it be crazy if she died? Hahaha.” 

Christine: –“LOL? Are we joking?” Right? 

Em: “How would it happen? Hahaha.” Yeah. 

Christine: I– Right. And I– So I have two pictures here. This one, and I won’t like– Uh, we don’t have to like put it on screen or anything, but just so you see. Like it’s like a picture of, of the phone. 

[Christine holds up her phone, showing a blurry screenshot of a text conversation.] 

Em: Oh, wow. Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, and it’s, it’s Heather’s phone, and it says, “LOL, yeah. How about we drown her?” And then he responds, “She doesn’t want to go to the beach. We need something else.” And then Heather responds, “What a bitch”– 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: –and then says, “Let’s just do it here.” And then another message from a different time said– He, he wrote, “Let’s make it look like a suicide,” and Heather said, “Okay. How?” And he said, “Drowning,” and she said, “Sounds good. When?” And he said, “In Bali,” and she said, “K.” 

Em: So he– 

Christine: That’s how they planned it. 

Em: Not only– So okay. I know I’m a little– maybe it’s late to the game, I don’t know, but just– It’s finally all col– connecting in my head that– 

Christine: I mean, it, it’s nons– It’s all nonsense. It’s crazy. 

Em: –that they– It’s not like they flew in and then had um– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: –an accidental death. 

Christine: Which is what they tried to pitch. Mm-hmm. 

Em: It’s that she– They flew in with the intent to kill. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: Which like changes everything because it’s like, “Well, now you don’t even have– Whether you’re pregnant or not like–“ 

Em: Can you– I can’t even imagine like looking at my kid’s phone and seeing like they’re plotting to kill me. Are you fucking kidding me? Like how do you– 

Christine: It’s just horrific. 

Em: What do you do after that? Like you can’t ground her. She’ll just kill you. 

Christine: Well, I don’t think she kn– I don’t think she ever saw it. 

Em: I know. I’m saying it– 

Christine: Oh, oh, oh. 

Em: Like I can’t imagine. 

Christine: In, in the context of being like a parent and seeing– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I mean, it’s horrific. Well– And so, here’s the other text. They were basically like– There’s a photo of his phone, and she said like, “We’re gonna need something, like a weapon, like something to hit her with,” ’cause they decided to hit her over the head. And then, um, he said, “Yeah, I got something. I’ll bring it.” And here’s the picture. Um, it’s hard to see– 

[Christine holds up her phone, showing a screenshot of another text conversation with a dark, indecipherable photo texted.] 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –but it’s basically a blurry picture of like a metal and glass bowl that he says is in his living room and– 

Em: So he literally brought the fucking weapon. 

Christine: He brought the weapon to Bali with him. 

Em: So he knew exactly what he was gonna do. 

Christine: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. 

Em: And again, how do you f– Again teenagers, how do you not know? You don’t know that cameras exist and you don’t know that people can read your fucking text messages? What? 

Christine: Like– 

Em: Are you fucking three? 

Christine: –what are you doing? It’s 20– 

Em: What are you fucking talking about? 

Christine: I mean, and the year was 2014. It’s not like the concept of social media is brand new or anything, you know? 

Em: Wild. 

Christine: It’s like, “What is going on here?” Um, so Sheila gave Heather her phone back in Bali, and that’s when they started actually like texting back and forth, um, which is what these pictures are. Tommy even sent a photo of that murder weapon which I just showed you, um, and she responded that that should work. Now, this is where I’m excited to show you this picture. Tommy was later caught on surveillance footage leaving his room with something large hidden under his tank top. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: I mean, fucking moron. It’s the bowl basically, uh– 

Em: And a tank top. You didn’t even try like a puffer jacket or some shit? 

Christine: Literally didn’t even put it in a bag or something. Like what? I have a photo. It’s just ridiculous. Uh, I hope you can see it. So I’m going to play the live– Well– 

Em: Okay. Oh. 

Christine: We’re gonna try. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Hold on. 

[Christine holds her phone up, playing a short black-and-white video clip from a security camera that shows Tommy leaving his hotel room, looking both ways, and going down the hallway. His hands support and hold a large object in front of his stomach under his tank top.] 

Em: Oh my god. He’s literally like literally so obvious about it. And I– By the way– 

Christine: It’s embarrassing. 

Em: For anyone who– 

Christine: Like it’s like, “What are you doing? 

Em: If you’re not seeing that, I don’t think we’re gon– I don’t know if we’re showing this. 

Christine: Yeah, probably can’t play it. 

Em: But, but the camera is like– It’s almost as if a camera was put on a tripod in front of his fucking face. 

Christine: Absurd. 

Em: Like right, right at his hotel door. 

Christine: And by the way, he’s looking around like as if he’s gonna like see something. 

Em: [laughs] Like he can’t see a camera? 

Christine: And I’m like, “You’re not looking at the fucking camera.” And he has this bowl, and it looks like he’s pretending to be pregnant. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: You know when people do the joke of like, “Oh, I have something in my stomach.” He like has a bigass bowl over his stomach. 

Em: What a full-blown idiot. Okay. 

Christine: And I also just realized I was incorrect about saying he traveled there with the bowl, because now I’m realizing they got their phones back in– Or she got her phone back in Bali. So he actually took that bowl from his resort room– 

Em: Mm, mm. 

Christine: –to the other room. That’s why he had it like under his shirt. He’s like, “Oh, I have something that’ll work.” 

Em: Sure, sure. 

Christine: And he brings it downstairs to Heather under his tank top. I mean, idiotic really. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: So he was caught on this surveillance footage with like this bowl. And, of course, then the hotel’s like, “Well, yeah, there was a bowl, and now it’s not here, and those are the pieces of it. So yeah, that’s the murder weapon.” 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: I mean, really like not thought through it all. On August 11, uh, Tommy had also texted his cousin, Robert Ryan Bibbs, about how to kill Sheila. Like why do these people involve other people? I will never understand. Uh, Robert agreed to help plan the murder if he got $50,000 from Heather’s inheritance. And so then he was charged as part of the conspiracy to kill Sheila. And he sent– he was sentenced to serve up to nine years in prison. But think about this, Em. Think about the mur– This– Talk about how dumb teenagers are. And this is really scary. 

Em: Mm? 

Christine: Heather and Tommy had killed some– a US national but in Indonesia. So they are going to court. 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: They’re being tried and charged in Indonesia of all places. Like this isn’t like, “Oh, they go home and then like they get to call their like rich lawyer,” you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: It like– It’s just really scary. And so they are taken into custody. Uh, they are charged for the murder, and they had to appear before a tribunal of three judges– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –not a jury of peers like they would in the US. Court proceedings began in January 2015 when Heather was seven months pregnant. It went on for months. Um, in March, she gave birth to a daughter named Stella, and the trial then continued. Heather and Tommy tearfully repeated their story of self-defense. But like, it was just– 

Em: I mean, come on. 

Christine: –so fucking obvious. There’s like no way to deny it, that it was premeditated. The texts are all there: “I’ll hit her with this bowl.” Like– 

Em: Right? 

Christine: What are you doing? 

Em: “I know just the thing. Here’s a–“ 

Christine: “I have just the thing.” 

Em: “Video footage of me hiding it.” 

Christine: “And here it is under my tank top.” Seriously. So, Tommy was– Okay, and I also want to add like that this– I don’t think it got mentioned in my notes, but it was like pretty jarring. I had to rewind and make sure I heard it correctly that in Indonesia the, the, the result of this trial could be death by firing squad. That was on the table for– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –for what their punishment would be. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Um, not only death penalty, but like specifically firing squad. So it’s like, “Well, nice work, idiots.” I mean, thankfully that didn’t happen but just to give you an idea of like what suddenly they were faced with, you know. 

Em: Yeah. Holy shit. 

Christine: So Tommy was ultimately convicted of premeditated murder and sentenced to 18 years in prison, which he would serve in Indonesia. Heather was convicted of aiding and abetting murder, and she was sentenced to ten years in prison. And the judges declared that she received a lighter sentence because they didn’t want her daughter to grow up without a mother, so she did get an easier sentence because of that. Per Indonesian law, Heather was allowed to keep Stella in prison with her until Stella turned two. 

Em: Oh, wow. 

Christine: Then Stella went to live with a Balinese man and his Australian wife who had assisted Heather as an interpreter during her trial. So Heather would ultimately renounce her claim to all of her inheritance, and Stella became the sole beneficiary of the family’s estate. Talk about a plot twist. 

Em: I know. 

Christine: Heather served only seven years of her sentence in Indonesia. But she did not go free because when she completed that sentence, she was deported to the US in 2021, where she then faced charges in the United States. Um– 

Em: Holy shit. Wow. 

Christine: So like really, really bad. The US tried Heather with different charges than the Indonesian court to avoid the laws of like being– of like double jeopardy, of being charged twice for the same– uh, uh, tried twice for the same charge. So the prison chief warden in Indonesia said that Heather had changed during her time in prison. She was involved in organizing official activities for people she was imprisoned with. Um, she grew to love them and became close with them and the culture of Indonesia. And she was apparently shocked and frightened when she was released early for good behavior. Now Stella was six years old, which is crazy. Heather wanted six-year-old Stella to remain in Bali with her foster parents because she just knew like, oh, the media attention and the upheaval back home will be a nightmare. But it was against Indonesian law for a minor to remain in the country when their mother is deported. So Heather and Stella both arrive– Imagine this poor six-year-old too being like– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: –four years with this foster family and then like s– 

Em: That’s all she knows. 

Christine: –you’re forced to go to Chicago all of a sudden. I mean, jeez. Yeah, so they arrived in Chicago, uh, together, and according to court records, a judge granted emergency custody of Stella to one of Heather’s attorneys. Uh, a woman named Kia Walker, who’s Tommy’s mother and Stella’s therefore grandmother, was upset that Stella was staying with an attorney. And she said, “Stella has family here. Like I’m her grandmother. I want my granddaughter.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: “Um, I want this craziness to stop.” So now there’s this custody battle between Kia, Stella’s foster mother, uh, Oshar Suatarma, and Diana Roque Ellis, a close friend of Sheila’s in life. Like, they’re all just– 

Em: Jeez. 

Christine: –trying to, to get custody of this baby, six-year-old baby. There were concerns over custody in such a high-profile case too, because like they didn’t want her being exploited for, for books, for media. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Like they didn’t want people– or her inheritance now. Like it’s all just front page news. Um, and she’s only six years old. 

Em: I guess– 

Christine: And– 

Em: I mean, I don’t want– I’m not at all saying that like, “Oh, this kid is so lucky,” but at least there are people who are trying to like take her and ma– protect her. 

Christine: I know. I mean– 

Em: Like at least she’s got some safe people to go to. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: But still. 

Christine: Well, according to, um, some people, not so much, but this is just accusations that were thrown around. 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: But people made accusations that Diana, Heather, and even the foster mother, Oshar, planned to involve Stella in a documentary, but I think that was just like– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –I think they were just starting rumors. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: But yeah, basically it’s like all these people, whether they were friends of Sheila’s or like blood-related grandmother or what have you, like yeah, people wanted to, to take her in. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, I am sad they didn’t let her stay with her family in Bali. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I don’t know what the situation is, so I don’t feel like I can speak on that, but, um, it’s just a lot for a little girl obviously. Um, so the judge making, uh, custody decisions actually said, quote, “The fact that Stella is doing as well as she is is a credit to her, dare I say, not to the adults.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And I was like, “Thank you,” because all these people fighting and hurling accusations. I mean, it’s not good for the kid. Like when it’s like– 

Em: No. 

Christine: –“Oh, I want her. I want her.” It’s like it turns into like a pissing match between everyone, and then like the kid is just like on the sidelines. It’s just all scary and sad. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But yeah– but they’re– They– They’re trying to do the best for her also, but it’s like what a mess. Anyway. 

Em: It’s a big old gray space. 

Christine: There’s like– Yeah, there’s like no way to win in this scenario, I would say. So Diana was denied custody because she didn’t have like an actual relationship with, uh, Stella. This is just the friend of, of Sheila’s. Um, Heather had hoped to live with Diana and Stella if she were released awaiting trial, so she was hoping that Diana would get her daughter so that they could all three connect afterward. But finally Stella was placed with Heather’s maternal cousin. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I don’t know how that happened, but I’m sure there was a lot of back and forth about it. In 2023, Heather pleaded guilty. Imagine– This happened in 2014. And like– 

Em: That’s so wild. 

Christine: It’s just still going. In 2023, Heather pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to kill a US national. In January 2024, Heather was sentenced to 26 years in prison for conspiracy to kill a US national, and the two years she spent in custody since arriving back in the US were credited to her sentence. Um, Heather’s family is– has immensely struggled, uh, since Sheila’s death. At Heather’s US sentencing, Sheila’s brother, Bill, requested the maximum allowed sentence against Heather. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Not the firing squad in Bali, but like in, in the US what– 

Em: Right, yeah. 

Christine: –uh which would be life behind bars. And he told NBC News, “If it were up to me, Heather would spend the rest of her life behind bars.” Prosecutors said that Heather covered Sheila’s mouth to muffle the screams– 

Em: Oh… 

Christine: –while Tommy beat her mother to death with that weapon. 

Em: [whispering] Oh god. 

Christine: After Debbie, her sister, sobbed during a victim impact statement, Heather said to her aunt, “It breaks my heart hearing you cry. There’s no excuse for me trying to harm her. I miss and love my mother.” And it’s just also heartbreaking because it’s like you have to imagine ma– like as a teenage girl, she got– I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s just all so terrible. 

Em: I– It’s such a, it’s such a messy spot ’cause part of, part of me wants to have total compassion and the other part’s like– 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: –“Hello?” Yeah. 

Christine: Like, “What the fuck have you done?” 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: No, you’re right. You’re right. You’re right. She said, “I just didn’t lose–“ This is Debbie again. “I just didn’t lose my sister and best friend. I really lost my niece too. It’s another heartbreak that I have to live with for the rest of my life.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So, as of today, Heather remains in prison in the US. Tommy Schaefer, meanwhile, is still serving his first prison sentence in Indonesia. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: And when he’s released, he has to face charges in the US as well, so. 

Em: [scoffs] He’s never getting out. 

Christine: Can you imagine? Like he was the one who actually– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –brought the murder weapon, killed her, you know? It’s just– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: It’s bad. It’s ugly. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: [spooky tone of voice] Happy Halloween. 

Em: [chuckles] [spooky tone of voice] Whooo! Scary. 

Christine: My bad. It is scary. I’ll give you that. I’ll give you that. 

Em: Oh my gosh. Well– 

Christine: But you know me, in like three weeks, I’ll be like, “I have the craziest Halloween story for you today.” 

Em: And I look forward to it. 

Christine: And you’ll be like, “Well– [laughs] Well, okay. It’s Thanksgiving, but all right.” 

Em: I look forward to it. Um, yeah. Tech– I mean, technically it’s not Halloween yet when this comes out, and we can make the, the weekend after Halloween our Halloween episode. 

Christine: Well, guess wha– We do have something to say, which is that we do have a little surprise coming out on Halloween. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: We do have a little surprise coming out on Halloween. Um, not a– not the normal episode, but may– perhaps even more fun, so just get ready for that. 

Em: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, so anyway, you have a second chance. I’ll keep, I’ll keep the cobwebs up next week in case you want to do something Halloweeny. 

Christine: You know what? This will be my chance– I’m gonna forget. This will be my chance. [laughs] 

Em: Okay. [laughs] This will be your second chance. 

Christine: Wait, doesn’t this come out in like two weeks or am I crazy? I thi– 

Em: Oh, does this come out on already the weekend after October? Yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god, Em, this comes out on November 2nd. After all this time, you’ve really made me look a fool in your condom costume and everything. 

Em: You don’t even have a chance– 

Christine: Just kidding. 

Em: –to re-redeem yourself. 

Christine: This is, this is way funnier that we’re doing it like two days after Halloween. Um. 

Em: I’m sorry, everyone. Well– 

Christine: Don’t be sorry. We clearly– Well, maybe– I could also be wrong. I usually am. 

Em: I don’t know anymore. I don’t know. 

Christine: Who cares? 

Em: We’ll find out together ev– 

Christine: It’s always Halloween in our minds. 

Em: Well, I hope you had a good time as Pete the Cat or something. And um– 

Christine: [laughs] Thank you. 

Em: I had a great time as a condom. 

Christine: I did. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I, I could tell. You remember this? “Can you hear it? Is it too loud?” [Christine shimmies and shifts her shoulder, mimicking what Em had done earlier in the condom costume.] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That’s what you were doing. 

Em: Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy. 

Christine: Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy. And just so, so sincere like, “Can you hear it?” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Well then, um, happy Halloween, everybody. And I guess next time we celebrate anything, we’ll be singing our cranberry song, so. 

Christine: Honestly, let’s not for– I won’t forget that. Um, I might, but you can remind me. 

Em: I, I don’t know how to decorate, but um, you know, we’ll, we’ll sing. That’s what we’ll do. 

Christine: First of all, you know how to decorate. You just haven’t come up with the right plan yet. So, don’t worry. 

Em: You’re right. Something in me knows, but the, the– 

Christine: Something deep inside will know. 

Em: My awake– The awake me does not know yet. 

Christine: You’ll have the awakening. Don’t worry. 

Em: Uh, well, everybody, if you want to listen to more of us, you can go over to Patreon and listen to our intermission in between both of our stories today. Uh, you can tune in to here and Beach Too Sandy, and you can go to– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: –that one last show that is apparently over. [laughs] 

Christine: And als– It’s already been over for two weeks. 

Em: ‘kay. 

Christine: And also uh– And I wore a condom costume, and everyone was like, “What is going on?” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, no, uh, also listen to our– We don’t talk about this enough, but we’re going to get better about it, I think, over time is what I tell myself, but listen to the other ParaPods shows. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: We have some really, really, lovely, wonderful, uh, shows c– and obviously you’ve noticed we’ve been doing some crossovers, um, with other hosts for, for Paraween: uh, Invasion of the Host Snatchers. It’s been so much fun to like– And it’s also been so cool to get to know people that like I know but I haven’t like host– Like we haven’t like hosted one-on-one as a co-host with all these people. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So it’s, it’s kind– It’s been really cool, and, um, I just– I adore everybody on our network so much. So we got all sorts of fun stuff. Um, go check it out. Uh, ParaPods. I don’t even know where– what the website is, but I assume it’s– it exists. ParaPods.com? 

Em: ParaP– [singing] ♪ ParaPods.com? [singing on a single note] No, not that one. ♪♪ 

Christine: [singing on the same note] ♪ It’s not that. Uh-oh. Huge domains.com. ♪♪ 

Em: Hm. [laughs] Uh, well, go look at andthatswhywedrink.com and learn more. 

Christine: parapodsnetwork.com is what I meant to say. 

Em: Of course, me too. 

Christine: parapodsetwork– I’m pretty sure I helped come up with that. I think I picked that URL, so that’s on me. 

Em: LOL. 

Christine: I’m sorry. Like I think Eva sent me a list, and I was like, “That one,” and then I didn’t remember. So I apologize. Um, but yes, so we do have a ParaPods website with all our shows and a place, uh, if you want to contact us and get to know us and see what we’re about. And yeah. Anyway, we’re just so thankful for all of you. 

Em: All right, we’ll see y’all next week. And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink. 

---