E466 Haunted Toilets and Frozen Jail

TOPICS: THE ALASKAN HOTEL & BAR, THE FORT WORTH TRIO PT. 2

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It’s episode 466 and we’d otter be in Fredericksburg. This week we’re headed back to Alaska for Em to tell us about the haunted Alaskan Hotel & Bar. Then Christine dives back in to cover Part Two of the Fort Worth Trio and the many theories as to what happened. And be careful of any ghosts out there looking to tuck you into bed! …and that’s why we drink!

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Transcript

[intro music]

Em: Okay. Um, hm. Welcome to f– 

Christine: What’s on your, what’s on your shirt? 

Em: A peach. It– Life is– 

Christine: Life is peachy! 

Em: “Life is peachy in Fredericksburg, Texas.” 

[Em holds up their shirt. It is a tie-dye peach-colored T-shirt. Across the shirt is “Life is Peachy in” with a colored drawing of a peach underneath. Below the peach in cursive lettering, it reads “Fredericksburg, Texas.”] 

Christine: In– Oh. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Fredericksburg, Texas. That’s right. 

Em: I, I so desperately needed to– There’s always been one other Fredericksburg that I’ve known of, and it was in Texas. And I was– I– The rivalry was completely one-sided– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –but I needed to know for myself what it was all about. And one of the times I went to Texas, I– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Uh, I have a friend who lives in Texas, and I made her drive like an hour and a half to take me to Fredericksburg, Texas. [chuckles] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And I– 

Christine: And all I got was this lousy t-shirt. That’s a cute shirt. 

Em: You know what though? They kinda– Fredericksburg, Virginia, if you’re listening, and I pray someone is because I’m from there, and I would love some attention. 

Christine: Please. 

Em: If– We– Someone who is in charge of the merch of Fredericksburg, Virginia, needs to do some undercover sleuthing in Fredericksburg, Texas, because they know what the fuck they’re doing over there– 

Christine: I ha– Em? 

Em: –and it’s embarrassing. 

Christine: I have something to say. 

Em: Is it you? What? 

Christine: Mahatma Gandhi said, “Be the change you wish to see in the world.” 

Em: [laughs] Oh, okay. 

Christine: It sounds like maybe you are noticing a lack that you feel you have the aesthetic sensibility to solve– 

Em: Mm-hmm? 

Christine: –and you’re kind of outsourcing, you know, like who can fix this. And I want you to kind of take a moment and think, “Could it be me?” As in you, not me. I don’t want to do it. 

Em: I could, I could write a letter to the Chamber of Commerce today actually. I don’t know what you’re ta– 

Christine: Oh? [chuckles] Okay. 

Em: You’re totally right. 

Christine: I meant like just design the merch, but I guess you could write a letter to the Chamber of Commerce. [laughs] 

Em: I will say– Okay, actually– I, I– To al– 

Christine: What the hell? You need to write a letter to the Cha– They don’t care if you make merch for their town. 

Em: I beg to differ. I beg to differ. They’re– I don’t know if it’s the Chamber of Commerce, but I– 

Christine: You think you’re gonna be censured? 

Em: In my time, uh, thinking about the Chamber of Commerce, which was all two seconds of my life just now, um– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] In the time that I’ve worked with the Chamber of Commerce. 

Em: I do know that there is a building in downtown Fredericksburg that u– uh, they feel like a little too– It, it looks like I’m in a mayor’s office when I go in there, and they’re the only people who sell anything Fredericksburg shirt-related. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And they only have two. And so I have one of them, which I was actually wearing yesterday. It’s so funny. I kind of– I need to email them and be like– 

Christine: I don’t– 

Em: –“I’m sitting here in a Fredericksburg, Texas, shirt, and you should be embarrassed.” You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: What I’m saying is like instead of just like bullying these people into like maybe making even worse merch or like– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –similarly quality merch, why don’t you just design new merch and say like, “Here’s some merch for Fredericksburg, Virginia,” is what I’m kind of getting at. 

Em: I get what you’re getting at. I’m trying to come up with a different tactic where I just don’t r– 

Christine: Oh, you just want to talk to the Chamber of Commerce. 

Em: I just want to yell at somebody. [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, okay. Well, then a– Please carry on. My mistake. 

Em: Um, but I do, I do like your idea of just may– maybe th– maybe it would be a, um, it would be a, um– What’s the right word? Not so much of a low blow if I maybe gave them some suggestions along the way. 

Christine: Right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like, “Hey, I saw these kind of things in Texas. Maybe you could get a, get a clue,” you could say. 

Em: Get a clu– Fredericksburg, Virginia, if you’re watching, I want this, but I– [holds their T-shirt up again] 

Christine: Hey, I have an idea. Can I– Are we allowed to brainstorm? Are we allowed to bring some–? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Okay. How about, um, how about Fredericksburg– “Fredericksburg, Texas can kick rocks.” How’s that? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] You can sell it and start– 

Em: It can take a hike. 

Christine: Yeah. Do the one– Like really lean into the one-sided, um, rivalry and pr– like don’t ever tell them and see– 

Em: No. 

Christine: –how long it takes them to figure it out. 

Em: That’s a good idea. And if anyone has any suggestions in the comments, I will send them to the Chamber of Commerce. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, but I will let you know, Fredericksburg is trying really hard to make otters our mascot. 

Christine: Why? 

Em: S– Um, because we live across a river, and I guess there’s a lot of river otters. Um– 

Christine: Oh, that– 

Em: –and then we had a whole baseball team, and they didn’t know what to give the mascot for that, and they picked George Washington as our fucking baseball mascot. 

Christine: So dumb. 

Em: Could have picked an otter, but whatever. So anyway– 

Christine: Literally it’s like when they changed the freedenc– Florence Freedom baseball team to the Florence Y’alls, and people got mad. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And I was like, “Really? You prefer Florence Freedom? Get a fucking life, dude.” 

Em: I– Like a river otter would’ve been a wonderful little mascot. Now I have to like– 

Christine: I think so. 

Em: –be happy about a president? Okay, whatever. 

Christine: You don’t have to be happy about it. You can really write a letter to the Chamber of Commerce. [laughs] 

Em: I really just might. I’m at least gonna hashtag them in something after this. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] You’re gonna hashtag them? Oh no. 

Em: Um, anyway, if anyone has a, a river otter t-shirt idea, let me know. I’ll send it their way. 

Christine: Yeah, “I ‘otter’ be in Fredericksburg.” 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: Listen, I could go for days. Let’s fucking go. 

Em: I love that. I love that. Or really, if they were all about unity, it should be one ri– one river otter is Fredericksburg, Virginia, one’s Fredericksburg, Texas, and they’re holding hands ’cause that’s what otters do. 

Christine: And the one from Fredericksburg, Texas, is way uglier though. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Has a big old bucktooth, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you said “butt,” and I was like, “No, no, that has to be the Virginia one, has that big booty.” 

Em: [laughs] Oh, well, what do you– What are you up to, Christine? How’s your life? 

Christine: Oh, god. I’m trying to survive. Listen, I’ve got– I hope you can’t hear it. I turned off the fan. We– The other day– I’m– 

Em: Yeah? 

Christine: [laughs] I’m short circuiting. I’m sorry. I’m trying to figure out what to address first. Hm. Hey, why don’t you tell me why you drink? And then I will, I will try and organize my thoughts. 

Em: Excellent, okay. Love that. 

Christine: I want to show you what I brought because I brought vitaminwater, and then I brought a bottle of wine, just in case. 

Em: Ooh. 

Christine: And I thought maybe after the break, and now I’m like, “I think I might open it right now.” [laughs] 

Em: Open it now. Open it now. 

Christine: It’s like 1– 2 in the afternoon, barely. 

Em: Yeah. And it’s a Friday. It’s 2 o’clock on a Friday. 

Christine: True. And my daughter is at my mom’s all day. 

Em: [laughs] I have not heard a reason why you shouldn’t open that fucking thing. 

Christine: Wow. Okay. So while I crack into it– I also brought the screw top, of course, uh– 

Em: Excellent. 

Christine: –19 Crimes situation. Um– 

Em: Mommy’s gonna have fun today. Okay, great. 

Christine: [chuckles] I’m gonna have at least, uh, a little bit of a numbing agent while we discuss whatever we’re gonna discuss today. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Um, anyway, why do you drink while I set this up? 

Em: I drink out of– Speaking of Texas and all the slander I just gave them, here’s a Buc-ee’s mug. 

[Em holds their tumbler cup. The bottom half is light blue and fades into purple then to a pink in the top half of the cup. “Buc-ee’s” is written in cursive lettering three lines with the top line in pale blue and the other two lines in a bright pink.] 

Christine: Oh! Okay, but now we’re getting ni– That’s hot. 

Em: We love her. 

Christine: I’ve never said that before about an item, but that’s a hot– 

Em: Literally is she not the most bisexual cup you’ve ever seen in your life? 

Christine: That’s like a hot water cup. It’s almost as bisexual as my Starbucks cup that, uh, has red– has like the a– the magenta into– You know, my s– my bisexual cup? 

Em: It’s almost as bisexual as you. Yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god. Well, I wouldn’t go that far. Um– 

Em: I’m taking a sip. Um– 

Christine: Oh my god. But that is a beautiful fucking cup. 

Em: Isn’t she? She’s a cutie. Um, I am– I’m drinking– 

Christine: I’m like turn– I’m like– That’s hot– That’s a hot cup. Like I need to get well. I need to get better. 

Em: It makes me feel good though that you said that. 

Christine: Oh, look at my cup actually now that we’re both drinking out of cool cups. I brought this– [holds up a small clear glass. Around the middle of the glass are small black bats with their wings spread.] 

Em: That’s batty. 

Christine: Batty! I brought this, uh, this batty up, um, from my dusty cabinet [laughs] in the dining room– 

Em: [laughs] Wash something. 

Christine: –‘cause I never– I, I ca– I’m trying. Okay? I can barely wash my own face slash hair. Um, I found this cup. It has bats on it, and I bought it on discount from Crate & Barrel like four years ago– 

Em: Love. 

Christine: –and I never use them, but then I’m like, “Fuck it. It doesn’t have to be Halloween to use a bat mug, bat cup.” 

Em: That’s exactly right. And you don’t have to be bisexual to drink out of a big old pink and blue cup. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: That’s exact– That’s exactly right. 

Em: Um, but this is– She’s a big girl. This is, I think, the biggest cup I own. And, um, I, I put th– Usually, I would just do like a mug of tea. This is three mugs in one. 

Christine: [chuckles] Oh, good. 

Em: And I usually bring this to the dog park when it’s chilly out. Um, but– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –I needed her today because I don’t know what happened, but yesterday, I started getting a little tickle in my throat, and I woke up today with– 

Christine: No… 

Em: –a very odd cough. It’s like there’s– 

Christine: No. 

Em: –nothing else ill about me except a l– I’m just feeling kind of like ph-phlegmy and gross. 

Christine: No. 

Em: But, um, I usually– I don’t know. This is apparently– I’m nine days in, and I’ve had two illnesses that my body isn’t used to having, so. 

Christine: At least it’s not hand, foot, and mouth again. 

Em: Girl, my nei– my– not my neighbor– my cousins in Seattle just got that. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: The– 

Christine: Good thing you already got it. 

Em: Literally the week after I left too, and I was– 

Christine: Good thing you and I had our chickenpox party but with ha-hand, foot, and mouth– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –and we all got it together. 

Em: Yeah. And I was actually alone, and I was supposed to go to Iceland or something. [laughs] 

Christine: Correct. And you missed a whole vacation. Yeah. 

Em: It’s okay. Um, I– It– Talk about a learning experience. That’s what that was, so. 

Christine: Yeah, for sure. We all learned a lot. 

Em: Um, I learned that I hate it. That’s what I learned. 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. 

Em: So anyway, I drink, um, just to– It’s hot tea just to keep my throat a little– 

Christine: I was gonna ask. 

Em: –lubricated. So, um, that’s it. Why do you drink? Please tell me. I gotta know what this wine’s all about. 

Christine: [sighs] Okay, there’s a lot happening. Um, I wasn’t going to really talk about it. I’m just gonna give a brief update ’cause it’s just uncomfortable and weird and– I don’t know. But people on the internet are very sleuthy and very good at reading between the lines and hypothesizing, and I have to respect them for that. So I’m just gonna give a brief update of what’s been going on. Yes, there has been– Which, by the way, people– My brother sent me a screenshot and was like, “Man, people are great sleuths,” because people went and like found little things I’ve said over the last year and been like– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –“What’s going on in Christy’s life?” [chuckles] And I’m like, “Damn–“ 

Em: Wild. 

Christine: “–people are good.” Um, I mean, I do talk about myself a lot, so it’s like to be expected, but– 

Em: It’s kind of your job. Yeah– [chuckles] 

Christine: Kind of my job. 

Em: Chat, chat, chat. 

Christine: Uh, yeah. So I don’t, I don’t fault anyone for wondering, and I know it’s kind of– I’ve been very vague, but, um, essentially now that– I want to give a trigger warning here for, for pregnancy loss, but I, in September, found out I was pregnant. We were very excited, told Leona. Um, she like d– was so excited to be a big sister. Lost the pregnancy Dece– mid-December, had surgery like over Christmas. Um, and my mom and Tim left town, and Blaise got the flu, so he d– I didn’t even see him for 15, 16 days. Um, so it’s, it’s– So I feel, I feel like I want to give a little caveat because people are like, “Is she just like bored?” [chuckles] I’m like, “No, I’m just struggling. Okay?” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Um, but I’m okay. We’re all okay. Um, I do– I did for Christmas– This is, again, a little bit sad, so I apologize. Skip forward if you don’t want to hear sad. Um, but it’s also sweet. Leona had drawn for school– She– They made– In the fall, they made, um, leaf families, and so she went outside and picked a leaf that she felt like represented everybody in the family. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And she– Her teacher was like, “Hey, I don’t know about this, but she, she picked a– like a little ginkgo leaf for, for baby,” and she’s like– 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: –“Are you, are you having a baby?” And I was like, “Oh my god.” So she like added a little like leaf for baby with googly eyes. And it was just really sad ’cause then, you know, obviously telling her was the hardest part. And then for Christmas, I got Blaise and me these like little, um– it’s a Leona leaf and a– and the baby leaf with the little googly eyes. It’s hard to see, but it’s like a little charm. [holds up a small golden pendant on the necklace she’s wearing] 

Em: That’s very precious. 

Christine: And so I’ve been wearing that, and, um, it’s calmed my– But [chuckles] we told Leona, and she’s like, “I don’t care.” And I was like– 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: –“Okay. So this is not what, uh, the mommy blogs prepared me for.” [laughs] I expected– And then we’ve processed it a lot. But the reason I drink is ’cause my child keeps [chuckles] asking me, “When are you gonna die? When am I gonna die?” And I’m like, “Okay, we’ve hit this stage.” And so– Now, keep in mind when I was talking about Santa and stuff, I was like trying to get through all this and also [laughs] like trying to tell her about death. 

Em: [sucks in a breath through teeth] 

Christine: So it’s been an extremely long month. [laughs] Um, and anyway– 

Em: I understand a lot better now. 

Christine: I’m okay. We’re all good now, a little bit. But I just– I felt like I needed to give a little bit of clarity ’cause I used to be a lot more open about things, and it’s just– I don’t know. I guess as I get older I’m just like less blabby about my personal life. Or– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –maybe it’s just things are more intense and more serious. Um, and then there is also other stuff that people have picked up on that I’m less shy about. I just don’t care to give it the energy it doesn’t deserve, which is just family stuff, but Em knows about that already so, um, which is just, you know, the typical like millennial– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –boomer estrangement situation [laughs] that you hear so much about Opr– on Oprah. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, okay. So there’s that. That’s why I drink. Um, but also the real reason– Well, that’s all the real reasons that for the last month. But the real reason today is that last night– So I’ve been thinking there’s a ghost in my house because– 

Em: [chuckles] Wow. 

Christine: There’s– [laughs] 

Em: Hang on. Hang on. Let me just shift gears for a second ’cause– 

Christine: [laughs] Why? It’s all connected. No, I– 

Em: Oh, it is? Okay. Well, I– 

Christine: No, it’s not. It’s not. [laughs] 

Em: I was gonna say this– 

Christine: I’m just full of it. 

Em: –this does make the Santa conversation ten times harder– 

Christine: Yeah– 

Em: –and I feel like an asshole for the advice I was giving. 

Christine: No, no, you were very helpful, and I feel like you made the point of like, “hey, make it magical. Like it’s fun to have it be magical,” and it was, and I feel like that was very good guidance. So, um– 

Em: ‘kay. 

Christine: No, so that was great. I– And I really was mostly concerned about that at that point because like I said, Leona didn’t care about the other thing. [laughs] 

Em: I– You know what? That’s– It sounds like you can write a brand new mommy blog of like– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –what you can also expect. Another– 

Christine: “If your child is more like your Capricorn partner than–“ 

Em: It is a little– 

Christine: “–your Gemini self and can’t really–“ 

Em: Quick to pivot? Yeah. 

Christine: “quick to just be like–“ What is it? I always forget. Is it right brain or left brain? That’s like the– 

Em: I think right brain. I don’t know. 

Christine: The left brain is the like analytical one, right? No, other way. Wait. 

Em: Left– I’m left-handed, which means I’m right-brained, and I’m more– I’m not as analytical. 

Christine: Okay, okay, okay. Right– 

Em: So I guess that’s right-brained. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Okay. 

Em: Left-brained. 

Christine: So he’s– She’s more left-brained like Blaise where they’re just like, “Well–” And then she’s like, “Does Santa die?” And I was like, “Well, now this is getting complicated because how am I supposed to talk about that?” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: So I was like, “ Christmas–“ 

Em: “Does the spirit of Christmas ever die?” 

Christine: Right. No, literally. I was like, “Christmas magic is–“ 

Em: Fucking Tiny Tim over here. 

Christine: “–immortal,” and she’s like, “There’s no such thing as magic,” and I’m like, “Alright, this is actually becoming really upsetting to me.” Um– 

Em: [chuckles] I– You know what? You really– I’ll remember this for myself one day having to– a lot of conversations all at once between magic, Santa, the spirit of Christmas– 

Christine: I mean, it– 

Em: –and death and– 

Christine: When I tell you, Em, wh– it rains, it pours. And when I say that, I mean it literally because last night as I’m sa– I’m telling you, I’m laying there. I’m like I just texted, um– I forget, my brother or somebody else. I was like, “Wow, I finally feel like back to myself a little bit.” Like slowly starting to like get back to normal and get r– into the swing of things. And I’m falling asleep, and I feel this like– So I’ve been feeling this weird like touching, and it– And I’ve let it happen because I’m like, “What is that?” And it feels almost like someone is like tapping up the side of my leg– 

Em: Eugh. 

Christine: –like as I fall asleep, and I felt this for years living here. The only time I ever felt it was living here. And it never felt like malicious. It was just like strange. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And I was like, “Is that like my nerve? Like is that– Am I like twitching?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like I couldn’t figure out what it was. But it happened so often in different spots. And then I was listening to Jim Harold’s Campfire, and someone was like, “Oh, I didn’t put it together until I heard this on your show, Jim, but, uh, I used to have this poking feeling, and I think that was someone tucking me in.” 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: And I went, “Oh my god.” [laughs] ’Cause then I went, “That’s what it is.” It’s like whenever I have a blanket, it’s almost like someone is like pushing the blanket up under me, but it doesn’t feel like threatening ’cause I al– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But it feels like someone’s tucking me in. And so last night– Or it was actually two nights ago, I was falling asleep, and I, I thought I felt that, and then all of a sudden, I heard this sound. And I went, “Oh my god, what is this?” And I was like, “It’s happening. There’s a ghost.” And I hear like [making a soft and breathy sound effect] “too-too-too-too-too,” and I was like, “What the fuck?” And then I’m like, “There’s a sound coming from the walls.” And then all of a sudden, I hear rushing water, and I go, “Okay, actually now I’m worried.” Um– 

Em: Dude, what? 

Christine: It was– A toilet on the third floor had, um, completely like rotted out, like the inside did, and had literally filled the third floor with just like this like flood of water, and it was pouring down into our hallway like stairwell. 

Em: Christine. 

Christine: [laughs] It was just pouring out of the ceiling, like hardwood floors. 

Em: And, and for those who don’t know, Christine’s stairc– Who would– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –else would know this? Christine’s staircase, it’s like, like, like, um, like in a, in a hotel the stairs where like you can lean over the banister and look straight down– 

Christine: Like see all the way down. 

Em: –to several floors. 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: So, so when the water’s pouring on your third floor, it’s literally, as you just said– 

Christine: [laughs] It’s just like dumping. 

Em: –raining into the second floor, raining into the first floor. 

Christine: And now– then it’s pooling, and it’s spreading. And thank god, I was awake ’cause I felt this fucking ghost, and I was awake at like 1 in the morning, which like typically, I’m not awake by that– at that point. And I’m awake, and I just he– But I heard it start. So thank god, because if I had fallen asleep and just didn’t hear the water running, it would have like gone on all night. I mean, we went upstairs at like th– 1:30, and the [chuckles] floor of the bathroom was like a pool. Like I was like, “You can’t go in there.” 

Em: Are you– What– Oh my god, I have so many house questions. 

Christine: We have emergency, uh, flood people come out, cost– 

Em: Are your floors, like all three floors rotted? 

Christine: No, thank god. So it just went through the ceiling here. It leaked ove– so that– We had tile in the bathroom, thank god. But then it went into the hallway, which is wood flooring, and seeped through, through the ceiling, but like nothing else really got damaged ’cause we caught it right away. But like we ha– I mean, it is so expensive, and I was like, “Of course, it’s expensive. You don’t call water emergency services unless like you have to.” So of course– 

Em: And your house is from like the 18-fucking-hundreds. 

Christine: I know. And so it’s a fucking arm and a leg. And then they brought this industrial fucking dehumidifier and fan that’s like right in the stairwell. And Blaise goes, “Is that too loud for recording?” And I was like, “Yeah-huh.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Uh-huh. 

Christine: “It’s so fucking loud.” So we turned it off. But anyway, p– the, the dehumidifier is running. The fucking industrial fan is not on right now. Blaise turned it off for me, so. It’s just– 

Em: Is it like hu– like humid? 

Christine: It’s huge. 

Em: Huge. Is it humid or anything? I’m trying to think like water and trying to get rid of the water. Is it like– 

Christine: So they’re basically just trying to dry out the like, yeah, the area where it like seeped through. Um, so they have a fan going, and they’re trying to, I guess– I don’t know. We were like, “Whatever you say, guys.” Um, but now– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: –we have to undo all– both toilets. So now we need new toilets [laughs] on the third floor. I’m like, “This is the part of the house I hoped I never had to touch ’cause it’s like, who the hell wants to go up to the third floor, you know?” 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: And here I am. 

Em: I, I’m so sorry. That’s pretty terrible. 

Christine: Anyways, it’s just been like a– [laughs] It’s just like one of those when– And then I was like to my therapist, I was like, “Well, when it rains, it pours. Get it?” And she was like, “Uh-huh.” [laughs] 

Em: [chuckles] It’s like, “Yeah, I get it and also don’t want to laugh–“ 

Christine: “Girl.” [laughs] 

Em: “–’cause I feel just so bad for you.” Oh my god. What a– And that feels my– At 1 in the morning, I would have seen that, and I honestly don’t know what I would have done. It was like, like when Hank got skunked at 2 in the morning– 

Christine: Ugh! 

Em: –and I was about to go to bed, and I was so exhausted, part of me was like, “Is there a world where I can deal with this tomorrow?” 

Christine: I do that. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I absolutely in the moment go, “What are the s– the risks?” You know how like in– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: You learn in stats and like microeconomics like risk versus– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I never learned any of that. But I do it in my head. I’m like, “What’s the risk–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “–of going to bed now, pretending I never saw anything?” 

Em: Right. Right. 

Christine: The risk was too great. I woke Blaise up. Part of me thought, “I hope he doesn’t come upstairs, and I can just put a bunch of towels down.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Thank god he came up because he’s like, he’s like, “Turn the water off.” And I was like, “Oh, duh.” Uh, and I’m turning the water off. I’m taking the toilet apart. I mean, it’s just a mess. And it was like, [chuckles] we’re soaking wet in toilet water. It was so gross. [laughs] 

Em: [sighs] Oh my god. 

Christine: And the toilet is probably like 50 years old. It’s this humongous like old porcelain thing. Um, all the rubber is like rotted out. It was just ridiculous. I was like, “This house–“ 

Em: Had you– When you got the house, did you, you got an inspection? Like did they say eventually you’ll have to deal with this? 

Christine: By the way, we got an inspection on paper only because we moved in– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –we realized the rugs on the balcony had been covering up huge holes in rotted wood. Gio went straight through one of the holes, and like thank god it was just big enough for one paw, but we were like, “Holy shit, not– They didn’t catch anything.” There was styrofoam stuffed into the gutters for– 

Em: What? 

Christine: –god knows what reason. Like there’s stuff in this house– Like they used paint that like if you turn on the fireplace that they painted, it like bubbles, and it’s not meant for heat. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: I mean, just like things where you’re like, “What were you thinking?” So, um– 

Em: It’s literally like over a hundred years of people just making like bandaids. 

Christine: Of people making cheap decisions. Yes, exactly. And I’m like I get it to an extent, right? Like you’re if you’re renting. This used to be like multi– multi-part housing and like somebody owned– I think it was like two apartments, and somebody owned the building. So like I get it if you’re renting, you’re like, “I don’t want to spend money on a nice toilet.” But it’s like now I feel like, of course, it’s catching up to the house and me. Um– 

Em: [sighs] You had a, you had a good few years though, man. 

Christine: We had a good run. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, you know, slowly but surely. Um– 

Em: Oh my god, that’s terrible. I’m– 

Christine: It’s just been a doozy of a month and a half. 

Em: And it’s, it’s one of those problems where it’s so annoying– Well, duh. But it’s one of those problems where like if– you just want to have someone– you want to call someone and have it be done by the day, by the end of the day– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: –and it’s just going to be an issue for like maybe weeks. Like it’s just going to be so annoying. 

Christine: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It doesn’t end. And then they were like, “Do you want us to come back every day to check on the humidif– dehumidifier?” And we were like– They’re like, “That’ll be $400 more.” And I was like– 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: –“Why would we need you to come check on the dehum– Like no. No.” 

Em: Yeah. I’ll look at the floor and tell you if my feet are wet. [chuckles] I’m good. 

Christine: Like really? Exactly. And Blaise like went to Ho– to Lowe’s today to like get new toilets, and I’m like, “This is, this is our life.” 

Em: And Blaise has to carry them up three floors. 

Christine: [sighs] You know, I’m trying to remember how we did it last time. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, it wasn’t on the third floor, so we didn’t have to carry it up three floors. Right. Uh, yeah, we’ll figure that part out. Certainly not my job. 

Em: You’re lucky Blaise is strong. [laughs] 

Christine: I know. I’m like– Well, not after that flu. I’m like, “You better get those biceps back.” 

Em: [laughs] Aw. 

Christine: “Carry that damn thing up the stairs.” 

Em: It’s like, “Is your chest– is your respiratory system feeling good?” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “‘Cause it’s about to be pumping.” 

Christine: “Yeah, let’s do one of those breath tests to see how strong your lungs are today ’cause you’re gonna be carrying porcelain up the stairs.” 

Em: Honestly, I think I– that that would be worth the $400. I’d be like, “Don’t come check the floors, but certainly carry the toilets up here.” 

Christine: Please. I would pay. Yes, I would have to pay someone to do that. Um– 

Em: Oy-yoi-yoi. 

Christine: Anyway, that’s that. Sorry for all the talk, for all the yabbering. I just felt like– I felt like by not saying anything, I was just kind of letting people speculate and try to figure out what was up. But, um, yeah, that’s what’s up. 

Em: I mean– 

Christine: It’s just, it’s just a hard time o– time of life. But, you know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: 2025 was very hard on a lot of us. [chuckles] So I think– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I think a lot of people can commiserate. But, um, really truly doing okay now, and, um, especially now that I have a glass of wine, so I’m happy. 

Em: Yeah, you need it. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, thank you. 

Em: I don’t know why you fucking had the nerve to be like, “I don’t know if I should.” Drink that, please. 

Christine: Listen, I live in a perpetual state of– 

Em: Chaos? 

Christine: Chaos. Fear. No. Uh, yeah, you’re right. I just needed to kind of put on the act of pretending like I didn’t need the wine, you know, or didn’t– 

Em: Yeah, you need– 

Christine: We all knew– I mean, I brought– 

Em: You need to feel like you’re making the decision for you. 

Christine: Exa– And I needed you to feel like– I need to feel validated in my decision, so thank you. ’Cause al– 

Em: You wanted me to, to have the mystery of “will she, won’t she?” 

Christine: Yeah. Uh, and then encourage me, you know, to do the wrong thing. Um, and why else would I bring a screw top up? Like we know I’m gonna open that. 

Em: Well, that’s funny that you call it “the wrong thing” when the wrong thing on a Friday at 2 after all your problems would be to not drink the wine. But– 

Christine: Would be a vitaminwater. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, right. 

Christine: Big mistake. Huge. 

Em: Stay hydrated. 

Christine: Please. 

Em: Um, and to all my thirsty rats, if it is the weekend for you, please drink. If you needed permission, please drink. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

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Em’s Story – The Alaskan Hotel & Bar 

Em: Well, I have a story for you. This comes straight out of a stranger I met, um, who– We– 

Christine: Straight out of a stranger? 

Em: Yeah, this– Well, it was a story suggestion from them. Um, I went to one of those like, like go to– 

Christine: I feel like all the, all the listeners who have, who have requested the same thing 400 times were like, “Really? I just had to be a stranger and just spit it out and then Em will cover it?” 

Em: [laughs] I went to one of those like, um, “go to dinner with strangers” things, and the first– 

Christine: What? What’s that? 

Em: Oh, they’re all over LA. There’s like six or seven different companies now, but– 

Christine: That sounds terrible. I mean, I’m sure it’s fun in its own way, but I– it makes me immediately like clench up. What is it? 

Em: You just go to dinner with strangers. They just– They, they send you a time 24 hours before and say– 

Christine: And it’s just randomized? 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Christine: Wow. Okay. Okay, so you went to this thing. 

Em: And, um, I actually signed u– I got a subscription, by the way. Um, so– 

Christine: Whoa! [chuckles] 

Em: –I’m going to be doing it quite often. Um– 

Christine: Make sure to check Rocket Money next year when– 

Em: I know. When I’m– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Uh, no, but I mentioned ghosts, and someone said, “Oh, I just, uh, had a trip in Alaska. You should do this one.” And so, I just looked it up. And– 

Christine: Didn’t you just do an Alaska one? 

Em: Yeah, so I don’t know what’s going on. Alaska’s been, uh– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –in my, in my scope for a while now. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Maybe that’s my– 

Christine: I can see Alaska from my house. 

Em: [laughs] May– [chuckles] What an outdated, uh– 

Christine: I know. [laughs] 

Em: –obscure reference. I love it though. 

Christine: I think about it at least once a week. [laughs] 

Em: “I see it from my house.” 

Christine: “Can see Russia from my house.” 

Em: Um, to me it was hysterical, but to anyone younger than us, they’re like, “What the fuck did you just say? [laughs] 

Christine: Get out of here, you little kids. 

Em: Um, so where am I here? Oh, so yeah, Alaska’s been popping up recently, so maybe that’s my next big trip. But, um, I– It’s a hotel in Alaska. I feel like I literally just covered one of these, but it’s another one. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So I hope everyone’s okay with that. I had plans, which I might be doing next week, for an alien– UFO abduction situation– 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: –but that got pushed because of Alaska. So, um, this is the Alaskan Hotel. It is also called, or it was called for a moment, the Northlander Hotel, but– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –known as the Alaskan Hotel. Um, so we’re in Juneau, and it’s in 1913. Uh, that’s when it was created. And the Alaskan Hotel is Alaska’s most haunted hotel, apparently. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And when I looked it up online, there was not too much information. I really got a lot of my info from TV shows I watched, which– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –love when that happens ’cause sometimes I watch it and I only get one blurb, and I’m like, “Was that really worth the three hours, you know?” 

Christine: I mean, it is when you get to show me a time stamp during the episode. That’s always worth it for me. 

Em: I agree. Agree. 

Christine: But I’m sure it spends hours of your life wasting time. 

Em: Agree. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: But it’s when– Yeah, when it’s worth it, it’s worth it. So anyway, in 1913, we see the beginnings of the Alaskan Hotel. I just kind of went through this history last time, so I’m just gonna kind of fly through it. But this was built during the height of the gold rush, and, um, there weren’t a lot of hotels at the time. It was a lot of like boarding houses. Um, and this was also– Alaska wasn’t even officially a territory yet. I think it was just like frontier land. And these two brothers, who literally struck gold, then had enough money, and they’re like, “We’re gonna build one of the first hotels out here for the rest of the miners coming into town.” 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So these two brothers, they were the McCloskey brothers, and then they had a third person helping them named Jules Caro. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: You don’t have to remember any of those people. 

Christine: Uh, he sounds like a Knives Out character. 

Em: [chuckles] He does, yeah. 

Christine: I’ve been watching a lot of Knives Out like murder mystery. 

Em: That’s exactly right. Um, and their names were John, James, and Jules, which I love. 

Christine: See? 

Em: Like the Duggars are fucking running a hotel. 

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles] It is. They had the idea first. 

Em: So at the time, like I said, there weren’t a lot of hotels, so this was one of the first ones. And it opened in 1913. It is now Alaska’s oldest continuously operating hotel. It still exists. And it was on the– It became part of the National Register of Historic Places in the ‘70s. It was built one year after Alaska became a territory. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So pretty much for as long as Alaska’s been a territory, this has been a hotel. 

Christine: That’s pretty cool. 

Em: I liked this one quote that I found that’s– to give you an idea of the energy going on in this hotel when it first got built is that it was– This hotel, um, was, quote, “placed at the crossroads of the future of emerging civilization but in the past of frontier lawlessness.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Loved. 

Christine: I’m, I’m– I– I’m– That’s hot. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You know, I keep saying like the Paris Hilton– I mean, talk about outdated references. Wow. 

Em: You’re really full of ‘em today. 

Christine: I’m so– I’m like in– I’m like into that. That’s cool. 

Em: Sarah Palin, Paris Hilton. 

Christine: Yeah, I’m not into that as mu– 

Em: What year is this? 

Christine: I mean, who knows anymore really? 

Em: Well, so the– M– We– I saw this on one source and then nowhere else, and I don’t know why because this is the silliest little thing I’ve ever seen in my life, but the hotel’s grand opening was very over the top and very dramatic. And I think the brothers were like trying to really symbolically do this up and be like, “We’re gonna be part of Alaska’s growth from being kind of the wild west to like this big fancy–“ 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: “–luxury area.” And so during the opening ceremonies of this hotel, which they had opening ceremonies, um, they tied the literal front door keys to a balloon and then just let it go and just– It flew into the sky. And it was– 

Christine: What? 

Em: –to be symbolic that the hotel would never be closed. 

Christine: Until it pops on like a passing piece of trash and falls back to the ground. 

Em: [chuckles] Until a seagull takes it or something. 

Christine: Yeah, really. And swallows it and dies. What are you talking about? Stop it. 

Em: [chuckles] It’s ’til the skeleton key comes down and clunks someone on the head. 

Christine: Seriously. Or somebody’s like, “Oh, cool. A key to a hotel. Let me just try this.” 

Em: How about like, “Hey, now we don’t have a key to the hotel.” [laughs] It’s like– 

Christine: True. Like “Did anyone make a copy?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Uhhh…” [laughs] “Follow that balloon!” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Did you ever send a balloon into outer space? Not outer space, but– Did you ever se– 

Em: No, I’m not Iron Man, but I don’t know. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: What do you, what do you mean? 

Christine: We sent a balloon at one of my birthday parties that we like wrote on and sent it off. You never did that? 

Em: Mm. I’ve done, I mean, like a Chinese lantern situation. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Ours were probably way more ecologically disastrous, but I mean it was one balloon. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: You’re, you’re really not supposed to do that. Um, but, you know, back in 2000-whatever, uh –12, we didn’t know that. 

Em: I have seen videos on YouTube, which feels so– I mean, it’s interesting but so reckless with your equipment. People have just tied like their full-ass camera on a balloon and like they like tape a tracker onto the camera. So that way when the balloon eventually pops, and the camera comes crashing down, then you can go find the camera but watch the footage back of it going up into the atmosphere and falling. 

Christine: Isn’t that like literally what a drone is for? 

Em: I imagin– Yes. But– 

Christine: [laughs] Okay, this is probably pre-drone. 

Em: –this is like poor man’s way, I suppose. 

Christine: Okay. Yes, I see. The poor man’s way except then you lose your iPhone forever. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Okay. Like it falls in a, it falls in a fucking swamp. Good luck. Um– 

Em: Some of them are like– I guess the camera is like meant to like, um, withstand certain atmosphere– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –so like you end up like getting up in the sky to a point where it’s like black. 

Christine: I thought you mean you just like tie your Blackberry device to it, and I’m like– 

Em: No, no, no. 

Christine: –“What a terrible idea.” Okay. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So you did like a– one of those GoPro things or something. Cool. 

Em: Yes, a GoPro. That’s exactly right. Um, I thought those were cool, but no, I’ve never– Maybe in school once with like– Was there a letter in the balloon like, “When you find this–“ 

Christine: Yeah. So we wrote all the names of our crush– It was my 11th birthday. We wrote all the names of our crushes [laughs] on a balloon– 

Em: That’s sinister. I love it. 

Christine: –and sent it off. It doesn’t– didn’t seem sinister. Now that I’m literally 90% of the way through the audiobook of It, it does feel a little sinister. But at the time, it didn’t. Um, but we wrote– 

Em: Was it like everyone wrote it and got to crumble it up and hide it from everybody and put it in, in the balloon? Or was it every– 

Christine: No, no, it was on the balloon. 

Em: So you just made people for your birthday confess their crushes? 

Christine: Of course. I’m a Gemini. I turned 11. What do you think I’m gonna do? We– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And then you know what else we did that day? After the balloon was sent off, we all went around and talked about when we got our periods, and I was like, “Yeah–“ I was like, “I don’t know what a period is.” I was 11. 

Em: Ohh… 

Christine: I was, I was, I was really out of the– I mean, to be fair, I was not the only girl who was like, “What’s going on?” But, um– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –I was out of my depth already at this point in middle school. But yeah, so we all wrote our cr– I mean, whoever wanted to. Nobody– Or you could use a code name. 

Em: “Nobody had to” as you had a knife poking them in the ribs if they didn’t do it. [laughs] 

Christine: I said to– “Do you want me to use this on you or the balloon?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And so then I– [chuckles] We all wrote our crush’s name. I don’t even remember who mine was. I think I made one up because I don’t think I had a real crush. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And then we sent it off [laughs] into, into the atmosphere, and we got a phone call from, uh, a lady in West– 

Em: A crush? 

Christine: From my crush. [laughs] 

Em: “I saw what you did.” 

Christine: [laughs] “We all float down here.” Um, it was from this lady in West Virginia who was like in her 30s and was like, “So this landed in my yard. I just want to let you know I found it.” 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: And she’s like– She actually said, “I can’t– couldn’t read it because it was– had been like popped.” And I was like, “That’s good. Don’t read it.” [laughs] 

Em: “Honestly, this message will self-destruct in 30 seconds.” 

Christine: Yeah. Exactly. And so, that was my experience with sending off a balloon. Anyways, that’s all. When I heard the keys being sent away, I was like, “That sounds like something dumb I would have done and then not made a copy of the keys.” 

Em: I– That feel– That’s– What a birthday gift to make everyone tell you their, their crushes. 

Christine: Man, Em, that was a really good birthday. I’m– 

Em: [laughs] I bet. 

Christine: Except for that I met my stepdad that day, and by that I mean my mom met my stepdad that day. So that was the day that he entered my life, which, um, you know, for better, for worse. 

Em: Maybe your mom should have written “Tim” on that balloon is what I’m hearing. 

Christine: My mom should not have ’cause I would have t– used that knife right away on– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –that balloon. I would have popped that. I would have been like, “I’m not sending this hex into the air.” Um– 

Em: You know, I went– when I went to Allison’s family– 

Christine: And Tim is not the person I’m estranged from. [laughs] I love my stepdad, but he’s such a– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: Just to be clear. [laughs] But man, he i– He showed up with these giant ass glasses. I was like, “Who’s that nerd?” And then it turns out he’s my new dad. [laughs] 

Em: He’s– You know, what, a nerd he is, but he’s a good man. 

Christine: Ain’t that how it goes. 

Em: He’s a good man. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, at Allison’s family reunion, it w– it was me and all the night owls that were left. There was like three or four of us. And we were all just kind of like making small talk, and at some point, the conversation kind of died down. And like trying to make a joke, I was like, “All right, well, if no one else has anything else to say, we should just tell each other our deepest, darkest secrets.” 

Christine: Yeah. Yes. 

Em: And then– 

Christine: This is a Knives Out episode. 

Em: I thought it was a joke. They took it seriously. I forgot that Allison’s family takes everything very literally. And– 

Christine: They don’t see the like nuance in it, yeah. 

Em: I was like, “I thought we were going to like laugh that I was trying to like break the tension of the silence in the room,” and they were all like, “Okay.” And I went, “No, no, no, no. [chuckles] ’Cause I don’t want to tell you mine. [unintelligible] [laughs] Um, but I was like, “Why are you so– It says something about me or–“ 

Christine: What were their secrets? 

Em: Yeah, I know, right? This would be the moment. 

Christine: [laughs] Can you share those? 

Em: I will say– 

Christine: “Hey, write them on this balloon real quick.” 

Em: I will say if those are their secrets, that family’s got no secrets. They– 

Christine: I know. That’s always the people though who are like, “I’ll share.” 

Em: They’re just good people. 

Christine: And they’re like, “I, I can’t, I can’t say it.” And it’s like, “I– “ 

Em: [chuckles] I was like, “If you–“ 

Christine: “Sometimes I eat cookies after bedtime,” and it’s like, what? [laughs] 

Em: What was that movie that Amy Schumer was in where she ended up at a baby shower full of like kind of like just more p– 

Christine: Yeah, I saw that on the plane. 

Em: Some– They were like the people were– like their secrets were not that incredible. And someone said like, “When my husband goes to bed, I sneak a spoonful of ice cream or something–“ 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –and she went, “Oh my god, you’re so brave.” Like– [laughs] 

Christine: “Oh my god, you’re so brave.” Exactly, exactly, exactly. Wow. Thanks for sharing. 

Em: Hey, remember Alaska? Okay, so– 

Christine: Okay. Yeah, let’s get back to your thing. 

Em: So, uh, again, I’ve pretty much said this a million times before, so you can kind of guess where I’m heading, but, um, the hotel was in a gold mine area. It was one of the first hotels at the time. A lot of people were coming into town looking for money, and therefore the hotel, which was also often a public space at the time, became used for nefarious things, including gambling. There was a bar there during the, um, pro– during prohibition. It became a speakeasy. Um, there was a quote– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –from one of the hotel’s owners that said this area was a “hub for every scoundrel, scumbag, legislator, con man, murderer, thief, you name it.” 

Christine: Hell yeah, brother. [laughs] 

Em: Rock and roll. Um– 

Christine: Rock and roll, brother. 

Em: So in– during the prohibition era when it was a speakeasy, they called themselves a “soda cafe,” and I love that ’cause I would have actually– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –genuinely gone there for a soda. [laughs] 

Christine: Poor Em would have wandered in. Like when you see those fronts that are like Italian restaurants– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and they’re like, “Uh, do we have a frozen lasagna we can offer this person? ’Cause they don’t realize they’re in a front.” 

Em: We have a front in, in our neighborhood, and it’s– It looks like an Italian deli restaurant– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and Allison went in there one time, and they were like– they weren’t selling sandwiches, they were like selling buckets. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: And she was like, she was like, “I think I’m just gonna leave.” [laughs] 

Christine: “Uh, yeah, I think maybe I’m not– No, not for me today.” 

Em: “I’m out.” 

Christine: “Thank you.” 

Em: Well, so, uh, the hotel was also a brothel twice because of course it was. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, once it was an actual like, I think, legal “everyone knew about it” brothel for miners. Um, and then it became a– 

Christine: Miners with an E again. Just to clarify. 

Em: Miners with an E. 

Christine: ’Cause this time, I’d heard the other one went, “What?”, uh– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Really depends on what mood I’m in. 

Em: If I ever say that with a smile on my face, please know I’m talking about– 

Christine: Please know. I assumed. 

Em: –miners like grown adults. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, the other time was a brothel was in the ‘60s or ‘70s when it was known as the Northlander. Um, I think that’s at least what one source told me, but I don’t really know much about this Northlander history. There’s not a lot to find there. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: Um, and then the last thing I’m going to say about the history is that, fun fact, this was– this hotel was on Hotel Impossible– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –like Bar Impossible or whatever that show is. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Bar– What– 

Christine: Bar Rescue? 

Em: Bar Rescue– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –but Hotel Impossible. I think they’re essentially the same thing. 

Christine: Is that that same guy, Taffer, or whatever the fuck? 

Em: I think so. I tried to watch it– 

Christine: He’s– Isn’t he like a terrible man? Or am I making that up? 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: Sometimes my brother says, “You can’t just say everyone is terrible until you google them and say, ‘Never mind.’” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: ’Cause I get– [laughs] I get people’s names– not Jude Law. I know who he is, but everyone else I get mixed up on. 

Em: [laughs] No, you don’t know who he is. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I had a Christine moment recently on TikTok where there was a little child actor, and I was like, “He looks like Jude Law,” and it ended up being an old interview of Jude Law, so. 

Christine: Well, first of all, fuck you. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] I, I guess I got it right. 

Christine: I thought you were gonna say like, “And it happened to me.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Um, no. So, uh, it was on Hotel Impossible. I cannot tell you if they– if it is produced by the same people who did Bar Rescue, but the concept’s the same. I don’t know who was in charge of that show. But I tried to watch it, and my computer– Also please write in the comments what the fuck’s going on with my computer. But half of the YouTube shows I try to watch now– I literally bought this episode to watch it. 

Christine: Do you have a– 

Em: And it’s just, it’s just a black screen. Like it won’t play. 

Christine: Do you have a VPN? 

Em: I don’t know what that means. 

Christine: Oh, never mind. You should. [laughs] Especially if you don’t know what that means. Um, never mind. We’ll talk about it another time. 

Em: Okay. Um, yeah. No, I’ll just try to press play on things, and then like I can hear it, but it’s just a black screen. 

Christine: Is it like– Are you screen recording? 

Em: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: Because that happens if you try to screenshot, it turns black. 

Em: No, but it looks, it looks like one big screen. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: It’s just black. 

Christine: Weird. 

Em: Like I’ve tried to watch it also–– I try to use YouTube for like my Duggar content ’cause I don’t want to like buy anything, so I try to watch clips of it, and even just clips of it are just black. 

Christine: Does it happen like on your computer or on your phone too? 

Em: Just my computer. 

Christine: Weird. I don’t know what that’s about. 

Em: Me either. Okay. So let me know, everybody. But anyway, it was on Hotel Impossible. I tried to watch it for you ’cause I thought that’d be funny. Um– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –and it ended up– All I, all I found online about Hotel Impossible with this episode is that there ended up being a lawsuit threat later because, I guess, on the episode– can’t confirm or deny. I didn’t see it. But on the episode, I guess one of the people that worked there got fired– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and then the guy came out later saying, “the producers made us do a fake firing.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Very– 

Christine: That’s fucked. 

Em: –Michael Scott and Stanley-coded. 

Christine: It is. I was gonna say, seriously. What the hell? 

Em: And so he tried to like for defamation like threaten a lawsuit being like– 

Christine: Well, yeah. Now on TV, you’re being fired, and it was fake and like– 

Em: Yeah, and then like– 

Christine: It was just for fun. 

Em: Even if you weren’t really fired, now anytime you go in there– 

Christine: Now you’re that guy. 

Em: –people are gonna think you’re a bad employee. 

Christine: Exactly, now you’re that guy who’s like targeted on the show. 

Em: Yeah, so fun fact there. If anyone else gets a chance to watch it, please do. Um, and now just for the ghosts, I want to say one of the reasons that, uh, stranger at dinner– [whispers] I don’t even remember their name. 

Christine: Okay. I was like, are we purposefully not giving them the– Okay. 

Em: [whispers] No, they were very nice. But they said their– 

Christine: Hey, listen. Some, some people enter your life for a footprint– in a moment– or what’s that quote, you know, for just a moment, and it was just to– 

Em: I’m just reciting “For Good” from Wicked in my head now. I don’t know. 

Christine: Okay, well, sure. Do that instead. But yeah, it feels like, um, maybe they were just meant to, to bring you this story and then move on. 

Em: Yes, maybe the ghosts, uh, embodied this person and– 

Christine: Wow, that must be it. 

Em: Uh, you’re right. So, um, but the reason that they mentioned is because they saw that in USA Today, this was ranked one of like the best haunted hotels. 

Christine: Oh, that’s a fun thing. 

Em: And then I– Yeah. And then I looked it up, and it is in fact– It was number five. 

Christine: They weren’t lying. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, it– 

Christine: They weren’t lying. 

Em: –is the number five best haunted hotel on, on a listicle of like top ten best hotels in 20– 

Christine: So is it best haunted hotel or most haunted? 

Em: Best haunted hotel. 

Christine: Best haunted. Okay, I like this. 

Em: And I– 

Christine: This is fun. 

Em: I don’t know what that means. If it’s like the, the best hotel to stay at that also happens to be haunted or– 

Christine: That’s what I’m guessing– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –’cause I feel like most haunted could be like a ru– like the, the fucking, uh– What’s the one in LA? The, um– 

Em: Oh, like Cecil Hotel. Like it’s certainly the most haunted– 

Christine: Cecil Hotel. And it’s like, “Well, don’t actually go there,” right? But like– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that– this is a nice like little twist, a little spin on that. 

Em: Yes, I agree. Okay, so that’s where we’re standing. Perfect. So, um, the current owner, her name is Bettye Adams, although I don’t know if her son, Josh, has officially taken over, but he also works there. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: But the– it’s been in their family for over 40 years apparently– 

Christine: Until he was fired in that one Bar Rescue episode. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. Well, so Jo– 

Christine: She’s like the heir to the hotel. They’re like, “Fire that guy.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] That would have actually been hysterical. 

Christine: I would have watched that. 

Em: Um, no. So Josh said that he’s been, I think– I don’t know about living in the hotel or at least the family has worked there since he was two years old. 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: In my mind, if you run a hotel, you also live there because the beds are free. 

Christine: I mean, my parents ran– Yeah, exactly. My parents ran a restaurant, and we lived like above it like out of a fucking Disney Channel movie. And it was like– I was working there like even at 3, I was– I mean, “working.” I was like folding silverware, but it was like, “Oh, the, the kitchen staff is going to watch you for a few hours,” like so– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –it literally f– I feel like turns into that if you’re living where your parents are working. 

Em: I imagine. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, so at least Josh has been there since he was two, and now he seemed to be like in his like 40s. Um, and so even the– as far as I know Bettye is still the current owner, but she acknowledges that the building has a lot of ghosts. I mean, they were interviewed in all the TV shows I watched on this. Um, her son Josh also helps run it. He is very adamant. He’s probably like the ghost spokesman. Uh– 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: Big fan of the ghosts. 

Christine: Well, he’s seen ‘em since he was two. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. So the main ghost here that people know of is Alice. So the story goes that she was a hotel guest here during the gold rush with her husband who was a miner. Guess what happened? He never showed up– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and like left her there. Um, but a different twist on her being a lady in insert color, um, usually it’s that she’s like a jilted bride. They were already married. He said he was only going to be gone for three weeks in the mines, but then he never came back. And so, uh, she had to stay at the hotel because she couldn’t afford to– 

Christine: How are you gonna leave? 

Em: How are you gonna pay to get out of here? And so because it was– 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: –a seedy kind of situation, uh, downstairs all the time – the lobby was full of nefarious folks– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –the way that she decided to survive financially was take up a job as a sex worker. 

Christine: Wow. Can you imagine though, like– Oh my– What– At what point do you think to yourself, “Shit, my part– my husband’s never coming back.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: “This is the only way out.” Like that’s– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –fucking terrible. 

Em: Um, so she ended up, you know, doing what she had to do, and she– Eventually, her husband came back. 

Christine: Oh! I was gonna say, “but at least that didn’t happen.” 

Em: Nope. Nope. Nope. Apparently, the husband came back– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: –and there seemed to be a big old fight because the story goes he found out what she was up to and then in a jealous rage decided to kill her in, in the room she was staying in. 

Christine: You are the fucker who disappeared. What are you supposed to do? 

Em: Yeah, where were you? 

Christine: She’s trying to survive. 

Em: Where were you? She was doing what she needed to. 

Christine: Doesn’t sound like fun. It sounds like she was having a fucking ride this whole time. 

Em: It sounds like she did not want to be doing these things– 

Christine: Jesus Christ. 

Em: –but she had no money. So what else is she to do? Um, so anyway, that happened in room 219. Um, and I think the room next door, 218, is also haunted by her. They both seem to have similar activity going on. Um, there have been people who will flee in the middle of the night– 

Christine: Oh, jeez. 

Em: –and they will tell, uh, the staff, quote, “She’s in my room.” 

Christine: [gasps] Oh no. Send her to the other room through the– 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: –there’s one next door. 

Em: Yeah, custody between the two guests. Like you deal with her, then me. 

Christine: Please, just at least split your time. 

Em: Um, guests would see her sitting on their bed. They would see her in mirrors. They would see her– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –walk past and then vanish. They would feel her touching them. 

Christine: Blegh! 

Em: People have also seen her coming down the stairs to the bar. Everyone’s got to do that every now and then. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And some people have even woken up in the middle of the night to her floating above them. 

Christine: [gasps] Gasp. 

Em: I know I’ve said that i-in similar stories, but it’s never not horrible. 

Christine: I– You know, and it happens enough that I’m like, “Okay, this is clearly a thing.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like one I don’t want to experience, but like clearly, it’s a thing. Like whether it’s a sleep paralysis thing or whatever, it’s like no, no, no, no, no. 

Em: Part of me feels like it has to be sleep paralysis because– 

Christine: Right? 

Em: –I’m like, “Why are so many ghosts signing up to just float over people?” 

Christine: It’s like repeated. Like that, the people sitting on your chest, it’s– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –the happening in the doorway. 

Em: There’s– 

Christine: I’m not saying they’re not real things. I’m just saying I think they happen a lot during sleep paralysis– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –and it’s like, why? 

Em: People say that she is in a translucent gown. People have, um, also just heard her voice speaking to them. And she’s very active with ghost hunting equipment, especially spirit boxes and Ovilus, anywhere where she can talk. 

Christine: [chuckles] Oh, she’s like tech-savvy. I love it. 

Em: I love it too. Um, women in STEM. So– 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: –many teams have come in and have been able to talk to Alice specifically. And in one show called Alaska Triangle, where they only cover Alaska creepy stuff– 

Christine: That’s fun. 

Em: –um, they had a sensitive, uh– a sensitive? Don’t know what the right word is. A sensitive? 

Christine: I mean, I think it– they can probably decide if they’re psychic medium or some people just say they’re a sensitive. Yeah. 

Em: That’s what I heard on the show, so that’s what I’m rocking with. 

Christine: Oh, yeah, I would just do that then. 

Em: Um, his name was Jeff, and he came in and kind of just cold read the hotel. And he got– He had this like flash in his head of a date, July 12, 1921, and then he decided to turn on the Ovilus, and he– the first word he got was July. 

Christine: [gasps] Gasp. 

Em: Horrific. 

Christine: So she’s like screaming in his ear. 

Em: It’s like, “Ahh! July!” 

Christine: “July, July, July, July!” and then he turns it on, “Wow.” 

Em: So he asked, uh, to the spirits, he was like, “Is that the day that you died, the person I’m speaking to?” And then the Ovilus said, “Alice.” 

Christine: [gasps] I like that this ghost is like, “I’m cutting straight to the chase. I’m not gonna say yes.” 

Em: “I’m not fucking around.” 

Christine: “I’m just gonna give you my fucking name.” Yeah. 

Em: “I’m giving you as much info with as little words as possible.” 

Christine: Exactly. Smart. Smart. 

Em: And as someone who has used an Ovilus, you know, you can’t control those things. Like there’s– 

Christine: No. 

Em: The– You can’t manipulate it– 

Christine: In fact, I don’t even know how they fucking work. [laughs] 

Em: Nope. There– I don’t– There’s no manipulating it to say the words you want. So it is– 

Christine: No, unfortunately. 

Em: And it’s eerie how it just immediately went to Alice. Um, and the guy said– 

Christine: And it’ll say some weird fucking things, by the way. I think it says– 

Em: [in a robotic voice] “Apple. Apple.” 

Christine: [in a robotic voice] “Apple.” [laughs] 

Em: Uh, he said, “Why are you here?” And the Ovilus said, “Hell.” 

Christine: [gasps] Uh-oh. 

Em: And then he said– he asked, “Are you in hell?” And then the Ovilus just kept saying, “Alice.” 

Christine: [sucks air in through teeth] 

Em: Um– 

Christine: I don’t like that. 

Em: At all. 

Christine: No. 

Em: La-later on, he asked, “Did you die in the room 219?” And then the Ovilus was saying, “Poltergeists,” and then it just kept saying “Alice” again. Very horrible. 

Christine: Oh, this is weird. Okay. 

Em: Um, in the show Portals to Hell, starring Jack Osbourne– 

Christine: Classic. 

Em: Um, this was actually their pilot episode, was going to this hotel. 

Christine: Oh, I think I’ve seen this then. I mean, years ago, but. 

Em: Well, so he uses spirit box or– I guess– Hang on. Can you hear Hank? 

[distant sound of a dog drinking from a water bowl] 

Christine: A little bit, but I like it. 

Em: He’s a, he’s a thirsty rat. He– When he drinks, he drinks the whole bowl. It’s very embarrassing. 

Christine: He’s a gulp-gulper. 

Em: He’s like, he’s like me. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Hang on. 

Christine: I’ll take this time to refill. Unfortunately though, when I do take a break, I have to go downstairs to pee ’cause my toilet is– 

Em: Oh, right. 

Christine: –busted. 

Em: I’m almost done though. Is he almost done? Okay, yes. So in the episode Portals to Hell, Jack– I don’t, I don’t remember the name of his partner in crime over here, but– 

Christine: I don’t either. 

Em: –she decided to stay in Alice’s room. She turned on the spirit box and multiple times got “Alice.” 

Christine: [gasps] Ew. 

Em: Um, multiple times. And then the only other word that she seemed to get, at least multiple times, was, um, the word “rape.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh. 

Em: Which led them to theorize that maybe Alice was never a sex worker– 

Christine: Right. I was a– wondering that even in the beginning. 

Em: –but was at the hotel still waiting for her husband and then something non-consensual was happening to her– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: –but she had nowhere else to go because she couldn’t afford to leave. 

Christine: And what are you gonna do? I mean, really. Like you’re stuck. 

Em: And, and then her husband came– 

Christine: And then– 

Em: –and decided to blame it on her. 

Christine: And “it’s your fault.” 

Em: Yep. 

Christine: Right. Exactly, yeah. ’Cause tale is old as time. T-tale as old as a Lady in White. You know what I’m saying? 

Em: [laughs] I, I do actually. 

Christine: I do. 

Em: Almost 500 episodes, and I think 499 a– have a Lady in White in them. Um, so in the year 2007, which does not feel that long ago, I– in my mind, there’s no such thing as ghosts that came from the 2000s. It’s always– 

Christine: It is hard to believe. 

Em: Well, in 2007, um, when the Adams family– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: Oh, I didn’t realize that they [laughs] run this place. [snaps twice, referring to The Addams Family theme song]. [laughs] 

Christine: And the A– Okay, go on. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I was like, “They’re called the Osbournes.” And then I went, “Wait a minute.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I literally was thinking about the Osbournes, and you said the Adams family, and I went, “You mean the Osbourne family?” And now I’m like, “Wait a minute. I’m all mixed up.” Okay. 

Em: Yeah. Bettye and Josh Adams. Um– 

Christine: The, uh, Adams– Gotcha. The Adams family. 

Em: That’s hysterical. I don’t know why they don’t– that play on words hasn’t happened before. Um– 

Christine: Oh man. 

Em: So in 2007, while the Adams family happened to own this place, um, there was a Navy sailor who came off his ship and decided to stay the night here, and he asked for the most haunted hotel room that they had. 

Christine: Okay. And this is ’07. 

Em: 2007. 

Christine: Okay. So– And, and this is like the era when we per– presumably could have gone somewhere and been like, “Oh, let’s stay in the most haunted room.” Like this is making it a little too– time– too modern. 

Em: You were sixteen. 

Christine: Yeah. Okay. 

Em: Yeah. Uh, is that right? 

Christine: [sighs] Yeah. 

Em: 2007? 

Christine: Yeah, yes. 

Em: Um, and so he wanted to be in the most haunted room, and so they gave him a room I have not discussed yet, which is room 315. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Now, his story seems to have overshadowed what was going on before 2007 in that room– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –’cause nobody anymore talks about what that room was like and why it was so haunted. 

Christine: So it– Oh, but so they gave him– Right. Okay. So but it was haunted presumably because they gave him this room saying, “it’s the most hau–“ Okay. 

Em: We, we– 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: All we know is that this room was apparently the most haunted room, and yet there’s no information online before his story– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –that helps us understand why it was so haunted because his story is so wild– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –that no– ev– e– 

Christine: I mean, who would have thought like, “Oh, I asked for the most haunted room. Now I’m gonna become the story.” 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: That’s fucking horrible. 

Em: That’s exactly right. 

Christine: Ugh. 

Em: So in 315, apparently, it was already haunted. We don’t know any more than that, but this guy decided to stay there. And a lot of people attribute it to the fact that he had just been on a ship for a very long time, and that does a lot mental health-wise. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Or it could have been because the place was so haunted that he was seeing something. We’ll never know. But shortly after checking in, people started hearing screaming in his room. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, as if there was somebody else there. 

Christine: Oh– 

Em: In fact, people report saying they thought two people were in the room. 

Christine: –my god. Okay. 

Em: The screaming he was doing was pretty much him just repea– repetitively saying, “Help,” “Let me out of here,” and “Stop.” 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: At some point, something happened where you could hear glass breaking. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, which this is all also on, um, a police recorder. I’m not gonna say police cam. It was like an o– like a tape recorder. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: It was just tape, but it– the cops that ended up showing up have it on recording– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and I did hear some of it. Um, but you can hear him screaming, “Help!” and then you hear glass cracking. And, um, by the time the cops were able to get in– ’cause he had locked himself in there. By the time they got in, he had jumped out of the window. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: But before the– We’re assuming the glass was him breaking the window first before him like throwing himself out– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –’cause after we heard glass cracking, he had maybe intentionally cut himself or maybe accidentally cut himself, but whatever happened it– there was a lot of blood– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: –and he used the blood to write “help” on the walls– 

Christine: Holy shit. Is a– Whoa. Holy shit. 

Em: –and then jumped out the window. 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: And by the time the cops got there, he had already jumped out of the window. But the blood wasn’t just on the walls. It was on the ceiling, on the floors, on the bed. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: It was everywhere. 

Christine: What? 

Em: And we don’t know if that was something he wanted or didn’t want. But the fact that he now has written it on the walls makes– 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: –is a whole element to it. 

Christine: This is so sad. 

Em: Um, when he jumped out the window, usually you would think like into an alley or something, but the building right next to this hotel is literally like this far apart. [holds their hands up, only a few inches apart] 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Like you can touch the other wall when you’re standing in the room. You can touch the other wall to the other building. 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: So the, quote, “alley” was so thin that he could barely successfully even fall, and so he kind of in chunks slid dow– 

Christine: He was like wedged in there. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: [exhales sharply] 

Em: And so as he did, as gravity slowly dropped him down, he also broke all the windows on the floors below him. Um, so then– 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: –a lot of the quotes that I saw were people remembering like, “We thought we heard screaming upstairs, and then our window busted open–“ 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: “–and we saw a person falling.” 

Christine: I mean, this is nightmare, nightmare fuel. 

Em: Yeah. So obviously, that has taken over what, what the hauntings beforehand. 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: Um, and– 

Christine: But it– I mean, it’s presumably so– I mean, I don’t know if it’s related, but he asked for a haunted room. So it seems like at least it was on his mind, you know– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –that something was haunted whether or not this was– Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. And they– And also people are like, “Oh, well, with mental health maybe he– there could have been a reason. Like he thought he could be closer to voices or talk–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah, exactly. 

Em: “–be, be a part of another realm.” I don’t know. It could have been something like that. Maybe he just was fine, went to a haunted room, got possessed. I mean, it could be any theory you want, but it sounds like there was a mental health crisis going on, personally. 

Christine: Uh, yeah, yeah. Yes. 

Em: Um, so anyway, some of that audio was played on the Portals to Hell episode. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and a lot of articles didn’t say this, so I’m gonna say it. Um, I only saw it in one article because everybody kind of just ends the story there. It’s like, “he fell and hit every window on the way down. He was covered in blood. The room was covered in blood.” You then– You must– One would assume he’s dead. Somehow, this guy survived and was medevaced and– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and I think ended up surviving. 

Christine: I mean, I think the only reason he survived is that he didn’t fall straight down. 

Em: Yeah, I agree. I think he kind of just scooted down. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, but nobody talks about whether he survived or not. They just like tell you the bloody part, um, and, I think for like dramatic effect, leave out that he actually survived it. So he did survive it. We don’t know what happened to him afterwards. 

Christine: Yeah, he’s in this alley to this day. Like– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god. Let me know what happened, people. 

Em: Well, in that article I saw, the cops were like, “We can’t even get in there to get him.” 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: Because it was so thin, no one could scoot in sideways. 

Christine: Like so narrow between buildings– 

Em: Yeah, it was– 

Christine: –which also like that’s alarming ’cause who knows what people have thrown down there and what’s– 

Em: Yeah, or like– 

Christine: –what he’s gonna land on– 

Em: –animals that are in there and– 

Christine: –animals and dead things. 

Em: Um, but apparently, I guess he was a thinner guy and somehow was able to crawl himself out– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and then they medevaced him once he got out between the buildings. 

Christine: Did he e– Is there any update? Like, did he ever say what the hell– 

Em: Nope. 

Christine: –happened. 

Em: Nope. Nothing. 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: Which like, imagine surviving it and then finding out that you’re the story of that hotel. 

Christine: I know. And you’re like– Oh, fuck, dude. I hope he’s okay. 

Em: Yeah. He might have just been like having a, a bad day, you know. 

Christine: Some episode or something, yeah. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Well, he was having a bad day, Em. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: [chuckles] I think we could all agree he was having a very bad day. 

Em: I think, I think– And before he even got to the hotel, it sounds like he w– 

Christine: He was having an episode. 

Em: –a bad day was forming, yeah. 

Christine: Right, right, right, right. 

Em: Um, so– 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: But yeah, he survived. A-at least that’s what this one article said. 

Christine: Damn. 

Em: And no one else– no one said anything about him dying, so. Um– 

Christine: And they probably would have if it’s a ghost story, so. Just to say that. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Usually they do emphasize that part– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: –when they’re telling a ghost story at these places, yeah. 

Em: And so, I think what– I think they were letting people believe, like for the flare of it all, that he died– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –but still the energy is something to discuss. So like something– 

Christine: Well, yeah. 

Em: –really insane happened there. 

Christine: I don’t want to stay in that room. Whether he lived or died, I don’t think I want to stay in that room ’cause I’m– It just– It’s upsetting. 

Em: I mean, to even look at the wall and the window and to know what happened up there and th– 

Christine: Yeah, it’s upset– It’s horrible. 

Em: To– When you’re sleeping and look at the ceiling and know there was blood dripping from it. Like, hello? 

Christine: And like the window, you’re like, “Oh, imagine throwing yourself out the wi–“ Like I don’t think mentally I’d be fit to stay in that– 

Em: No. 

Christine: –or like would want to stay in that room. 

Em: To even open the window to look down there if you were feeling like in, in a creepy mood. Like– 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: –I wouldn’t even want to touch the window. Like– 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: –it’s really that, that thing of like, “Would you wear a murderer’s shirt or something?” It’s– 

Christine: Yeah. You’re that thing that we invented– that you invented so many years ago. You know, it’s that thing. 

Em: I still think about it. 

Christine: I know it’s– and it’s a great, uh, metaphor. I don’t know why it hasn’t caught on ’cause I feel like– I mean, the answer again is no. I don’t– I would not– 

Em: 100%. 

Christine: And I would not go into that room. 

Em: It’s just a shirt, but it’s the energy. I’m not into it. 

Christine: No. 

Em: Um, anyway, so although he did not die, the energy has stayed in the house where now, um –super creepy – people have heard a man screaming for help, um– 

Christine: [sucks air in through teeth] 

Em: –even though nobody is. 

Christine: See, I’ve heard that. That, that that’s a thing that can happen. What– Was that somewhere we went? 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: I can’t remember if it was somewhere we went or somewhere in Cincinnati. Um, check your subscription to– No, that was an ad. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, Em accidentally subscribed to– 

Em: Cincinnati.com. 

Christine: –Cincinnati.com. And we talked about it in a Rocket Money ad, but, um, Em like was literally reading me like the little bla– news blast. I was like, “Oh, you get to know all the updates.” Um, no, but I can’t remember if it was from a ghost story I did here or if I was with you, but it was like the story– or maybe it was in Salem when we did that ghost hunt. But it was like the story of this person who was attacked– Literally might be a Jim Harold story, but the person who was attacked, and then like that re– that scene replays, even though the person is in prison and is like alive. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: But like people witness it all the time. So it’s like– 

Em: That’s so eerie that you can– 

Christine: –residual. Yeah. 

Em: That falls into my like belief about like how like time isn’t real and all that– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –because time’s a loop because the fact– 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: –that you can be alive and haunting something already– 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: –is so fucking crazy. 

Christine: Like you can be residually in two places ’cause you’ve already been there or you– Yeah, it’s freaky. It’s so weird. 

Em: Begs the question. Begs the question. What if this guy who was medevaced– 

Christine: Would you “mar–“ wear– Would you wear a murderer’s shirt? [laughs] 

Em: –is– [laughs] Uh, if that guy decided to come back and stay in 315, what the fuck would happen? 

Christine: I don’t think they’d let him. [laughs] 

Em: I don’t think they’d let him ei– 

Christine: I think they’d be like, “You’re not welcome here anymore.” 

Em: Like while supervised, while heavily supervised. 

Christine: Just kidding. No, I’m just kidding. 

Em: But true, like would it, would it– 

Christine: But yeah, y– it does make you wonder– 

Em: –end the haunting? Like do they need to find each other in some weird way? 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Or like would it– Would the haunting be even stronger because– 

Christine: ’Cause– 

Em: –he was there and he’s attached to it? Or–? 

Christine: Right, so would it like amplify it? Right. Would it null it out? Like negate it? Yeah, it’s really freaky because it is, it is– then it becomes like timelines and energy and fr– Oh my god. Yeah, then your head starts to hurt. 

Em: Then it’s like spiritual calculus all of a sudden. I’m like, what’s– 

Christine: Oh man. I mean, I stop at microeconomics as we’ve discussed. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] So, um, okay. The people hear someone saying, “Help me.” But the really creepy one was that one time, this woman who works at the front desk her– heard help me and then checked the security cameras, and all 12 security cameras caught, “Help me.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Like throughout the hotel, all 12. 

Christine: Oh, ew. So it’s like– 

Em: Resonating through the halls. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like in the air. Nuh-uh. 

Em: Um, so now the room 315, they don’t even rent it out to people unless it’s requested. And I saw someone say like they’ll give it to you if it’s the only available room left, which I love. They’re like– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: –“Take the scraps.” 

Christine: I actually hate it ’cause I’m like honestly I’d rather you just say, “No, we don’t have a room.” [chuckles] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like if I didn’t know about it. 

Em: Well, so, um, another ghost that’s here – this is the last ghost I think I’m gonna talk about – is that in 1988, up until this point, the hotel used to rent out hot– hot tub access, access. Hot tub access. 

Christine: In what year? 

Em: In the ‘80s. 1988. 

Christine: That’s hilarious. I love this for them. 

Em: And the– 

Christine: ‘80s luxury. 

Em: Even weirder is that they– It was in the basement, and like it looks like a basement. Like it doesn’t look like you’re in a hotel on the bottom floor. 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: It looks like you’re in someone’s– like your grandpa’s storage unit basement– 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: –and there’s just a hot tub sitting there. And like when you look to your left and right, you’re just in a cellar. Like it’s very eerie. 

Christine: Okay. ’Cause like I’ve stayed in places when I was a kid that like where we would go like skiing, and then like the hot tubs would be like outside– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –looking at the mountain or whatever the fuck. 

Em: No– 

Christine: But this is like in the basement. [laughs] 

Em: Literally– 

Christine: In Alaska, I imagine you have beautiful views and like– Wow, okay. 

Em: –your like– your basement, like the one– the underground basement. 

Christine: Yeah. Oh, yeah. We don’t want a hot tub down there. No, no, no, no. You don’t want a– [laughs] 

Em: The only difference between your basement and this basement was that this one had cement on the floor, but that was it. And then there’s just a– 

Christine: And a hot tub. 

Em: –and a random fucking hot tub. 

Christine: Which you’re already like winning, but like yeah, you don’t need to put– You don’t need to even sit in a chair in my basement, let alone a hot tub. 

Em: No. [chuckles] You don’t even wanna– 

Christine: No, we don’t need to be caught– 

Em: –be alive in your basement. 

Christine: You don’t want to be half-naked down there. Really, you don’t. 

Em: Um, but so I guess at the time, they were like, “Well, we’ve got a hot tub. Do you want it or not?” And this– 

Christine: I mean, I guess in the ‘80s, you gotta– 

Em: And this guy said yeah. 

Christine: –you gotta find hot tub somewhere. Sure. 

Em: So there was this guy named Charlie who rented out a hot tub. Um, and we don’t know what happened. Maybe he drowned– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –or something. But tiny little Josh who lived there, I think, or at least his mom worked there– 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: –found him floating in the hot tub. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Yikes. 

Christine: Okay. Thank god that’s not something– Like that’s scary. Like your parents are like, “Go check on that one guest who’s using the hot tub and tell them it’s time to go,” and it’s like you don’t know what you’re accidentally putting this kid through. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So, um, Josh did say– And maybe it has something to do with like his own trauma and seeing that so early and– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –thinking about death– Well, Josh said that the basement is now demonic and has heavy poltergeist activity. Um, and we don’t know if that’s because of his experience down there or because he– I mean, he really saw– he literally saw a dead body down there, so. 

Christine: Right. So like it’s, it’s already troubling to him no matter what. 

Em: Yes, exactly. 

Christine: But he is claiming that there’s like something even darker. Okay. I mean– 

Em: He– He also– 

Christine: –I believe him. 

Em: –says whatever is down there does not like women and will try to hurt them. Um– 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: –which I guess would fit into the category of nefarious, no– no-good-doers– 

Christine: Rapists, etc. 

Em: Mm-hmm. And, um, he said there’s another ghost down there that will aggressively let people know he doesn’t want them there. And he made it sound like ever since this guy Charlie died down there– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –that’s when this all started. So then he’s kind of implying that Charlie is the demon. But in the same breath, he said, “Oh no, Charlie’s the only human spirit down there. Everyone else is a demon.” 

Christine: Oh, good. He just activated everything, and now– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Okay, cool. 

Em: Josh even said that they have had, um, priests and exorcists down there to try to help, but nothing has helped. And then he even said that, um, he has seen horned figures and silhouettes down there. 

Christine: What? What? Stop going down there, Josh. I don’t want you down there anymore. If I were your parent– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –I’d be like, “You’re never allowed to go down there.” Which probably would make you go down there more. But– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –what, um– W– Is a– This is probably irrelevant. I really want to know. Is the hot tub still down there? 

Em: I don’t think so. I didn’t see it down there. 

Christine: ’Cause that feels like so ominous to still have like a dusty old hot tub down there, you know– 

Em: That had a dead body down, yeah. 

Christine: –where this guy– Okay, it did have a dead body. They probably got rid of it. 

Em: They probably got rid of it. I don’t know. I also– I imagine having to lift that out from the basement is like Blaise lifting a toilet upstairs three flights. 

Christine: Oh, uh, funny you say that ’cause, real quick, I got a message, uh, a little while ago that says – [chuckles] 20 minutes ago – “I made a huge mistake.” [laughs] 

Em: Oh my god. [laughs] 

Christine: Which by the way, I don’t– Blaise is the only one when I have “do not disturb” on that like goes through. So I just see “I made a huge mistake,” and I’m like, “What?” And then it says, “I didn’t check how much the toilets weighed. I assume they would be 30 to 40 pounds or something.” 

Em: Nope. 

Christine: “They are fucking 104 pounds each. I don’t even–“ 

Em: They’re solid porcelain, Blaise. 

Christine: “I don’t even know how I got them into this fucking [laughs] car.” 

Em: Oh my god. [laughs] 

Christine: “Good luck.” I love that he, he was like, “Well, I’m not going to return them. I’m just going to bring them–” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: This is why he and I are like terrible and great together ’Cause we’re like, “Okay, just bring them home, and we’ll just figure it out.” 

Em: I feel like he’s going to carry the whole thing up, and you’re just gonna follow behind holding the lid. And you’re gonna be like, “This is really hard, Blaise.” 

Christine: I’ll be like, “You can do it. You can do it.” [laughs] “I believe in you.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “No, go to the left. No, no. Pivot. Pivot.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] So, um, uh, basically during the show Portals to Hell, Josh was saying that there’s like a lot of bad stuff in this basement. He was saying that there had been ritual activity that happened down there at some point– 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: –and that he even admitted to also having conjured spirits in this hotel. 

Christine: [quietly screaming] Mmm! 

Em: Um, during the investigation– 

Christine: He conjured spirits? Don’t do that! 

Em: During the investigations– 

Christine: I mean, I’m, I’m one to talk, okay. Oh, but during the– Okay, fair. Yeah. 

Em: Well, during them, he, um– the, the investigators asked if Josh had accidentally invited something in that was negative due to his ritual activity. And the machines– 

Christine: Oh, I see. 

Em: –all went off. 

Christine: And he was like, “oopsy-daisy.” [laughs] 

Em: “Whoops. That’s not me. Uh-oh.” Um– 

Christine: “Sorry. I found a dead fucking body. I’m allowed to cope however I want.” 

Em: I– look, at the end of the episode, Josh also then tells them that he, both willingly and unwillingly, in separate occasions, um, was a part of, quote, “diabolical” rituals in the hotel. 

Christine: Diabolical? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? 

Em: He said, “I didn’t think they were dark or like, um, like evil, but–“ 

Christine: Diablo means devil. 

Em: He’s– 

Christine: Hello? Welcome to the club. 

Em: He said not evil but diabolical, basically. Um, and– 

Christine: Like evil times two. Okay. 

Em: He told this story of like how one of his ex’s moms practiced like dark witchcraft and like somehow used him in a ritual, and he didn’t know about it. It was like a crazy story, and I was like, “You should have led with this. Why is this the last minute before the show ends?” 

Christine: You should have written this in to andthatswhywedrink@gmail.com ’cause that seems– 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: –like a good listener story. [laughs] 

Em: Well, so then– 

Christine: Yeah, at the last minute, he’s like, “I was used in a ritual.” [laughs] 

Em: Like 60 seconds later was the credits. I was like, “Why are we only bringing this up now?” 

Christine: They were probably like, “We don’t really want to lead with that. It makes you look a little bit like wackadoo.” You know what I mean? 

Em: The, the girl at the end, the, the investigator who was not Jack Osbourne– When he was telling this to them, she was like, “Well, that’s the last piece of the puzzle we were missing. Okay, like–“ 

Christine: Yeah. No, like, okay, got it. 

Em: “–understood.” 

Christine: Checks out. 

Em: Well, so other than that, people say that, um, the dishes in the bar move by themselves. The stereo system turns on by itself and plays techno music of all things. 

Christine: Hey. 

Em: Um, the towels and the bedding will move and crumple themselves up even though they’ve just been hung and cleaned. Uh, people experience flickering lights, footsteps, orbs, objects moving, shadow figures, uh, walking through the building. They’ll hear growling. People will wake up at odd hours. Um, in Portals to Hell, uh, both people woke up at 4 a.m. in different rooms to like different activity going on. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Super creepy. Um, people get palpitations. They feel hands crawling up their legs at night. 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: One woman walked into the bathroom, and when she came back out, she was in a totally different time period and building. It was like she totally warped. 

Christine: Okay, I have that dre– like I dream of that happening. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like a split second of like– please. 

Em: When Eva– When the, when the, the car ran out of gas and I could hear Eva going, “It’s happening. It’s happening.” [chuckles] 

Christine: It’s happening! Exactly. Like, it’s happening. It’s happening. I mean, oh my god, I would just kill for that. 

Em: I, I could see you going, “It’s happening.” 

Christine: [whispers] It’s happening. It’s happening. It’s happening. 

Em: I– if we went into a haunted house together and you walked out and you looked like you were in a trance and you were just chanting, “it’s happening,” I would know exactly what’s happening to you. 

Christine: You’d be like, “Film this, Eva, right now.” [laughs] 

Em: I’d be like, “We’re not even– I’m not even gonna stop it from happening–“ 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We know what’s– 

Em: “–’cause I need you to tell me what later.” 

Christine: Actually, you’d be like, “It’s happening, Eva. It’s happening.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Everyone’s just saying it together like a ritual. 

Christine: And Eva’s like, “We ran out of gas again?” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] So the last thing I’m gonna say is a quote of what I think is the creepiest thing that’s happened here. On one article, I saw someone say, “A former employee who worked in the basement once saw a man walking around down there alone, and she turned to look at the monitor, and his face was suddenly right in front of the security camera.” 

Christine: [gasps] Like a horror movie. 

Em: Like a horror movie. 

Christine: No. 

Em: Um, that’s the last thing of it. So, sorry that was so long, but that is the Alaskan Hotel and– 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: –Bar/Northlander Hotel. 

Christine: Okay. So is this place fancy? Like I feel like if USA Today is calling it like the best hotel to stay in, is it like– 

[Em shakes their head.] 

Christine: It’s not fancy? It’s not like super fancy? I mean, the hot tub in the basement didn’t se– scream fancy to me, but– 

Em: No, it’s not– 

[silence] 

Em: I think that’s the vibe you should run with when you think about the rest of the hotel. 

Christine: Got it. 

[silence] 

Em: Oh, you froze. Oh no, wait. 

Christine: Uh, yeah, you froze too. 

Em: Yes, you froze. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Can you see me? Am I moving? Oh, you’re good now. 

Christine: Yeah, but it’s like 5 seconds late. 

Em:, uh– [sighs] 

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Christine’s Story – The Fort Worth Trio: Rachel Trlica, Renee Wilson, and Julie Ann Moseley - Part 2 

Christine: I am covering part two of the Fort Worth Trio today. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: And I do have a “previously on” for everybody except Em– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –because Em actually remembers, uh– 

Em: Very excited. 

Christine: –I barely remember. The world probably barely remembers. So I’m gonna read you like a little “previously on,” and then we’ll get back to the, the case. So previously on And That’s Why We Drink last week– By the way, you should probably go listen to it because it probably still won’t make sense if, if you’re starting here. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: On December 23, 1974, just two days before Christmas, Rachel Trlica, 17, Renee Wilson, 14, and Julie Anne Moseley, 9, went to Seminary South Shopping Center in Ho– in Fort Worth, Texas, for what was supposed to be just a quick shopping trip for last minute Christmas gifts, but they were never seen again. That night, Rachel’s car was found locked and seemingly untouched in the Sears parking lot, which is a top level of the garage. Police initially assumed the girls were runaways, despite the fact that this was an impromptu trip. They’d left behind the car and new clothing, and there was this random 9-year-old that wasn’t supposed to be even on the mall shopping trip. The next morning, a handwritten letter appeared in Rachel’s mailbox addressed to her husband. In what seemed to be Rachel’s handwriting, it claimed the girls had gone to Houston, and the letter raised immediate questions. First of all, it came the morning after. It was Christmas Eve morning– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and they disappeared the evening before. So it was already like, how did that happen? Um, it appeared in Rachel’s handwriting, but the zip code was blurred, and the three was backwards, which was strange. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Uh, it formally addressed her husband, Tommy, as “Thomas A. Trlica,” which she almost never used. The envelope was written in pencil, and the note inside was written in pen. And the, uh, spot where she wrote her name, Rachel, uh, somebody had gone back over and, and fixed the last letter, which had been written as an E and was r– fixed to an L. So it originally had two E’s, and then somebody kind of wrote over it and wrote an L. So just some like strange things. Um, in the days that followed, the families endured all sorts of bullying and pranks, um, false sightings, cruel prank calls. Uh, one moment that still haunts the case, which was January 7, Julie’s mother, the nine-year-old’s mother, answered the phone and heard a little girl say, “Mama,” and she has always believed that was her daughter. 

Em: Forgot about that. 

Christine: It’s horrible. With no physical evidence and no clear suspects, the Fort Worth Trio vanished, uh, and was never seen again. And to this day, people are like pulling their hair out trying to figure out what is going on here. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So for part two, I’m going to start with dynamics a little closer to home. Um, let’s talk about Rachel’s husband, Tommy, because of course people immediately side-eye the husband in every case, let alone when a 17-year-old girl is married to a 22-year-old and– 

Em: Who has already been divorced with a kid, right? 

Christine: Correct. Divorced with a kid, and, uh, we’ll get to it, but there is even more drama. Yes. So– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I don’t know, I– Maybe I didn’t mention it last week. Tommy, who was 22– Rachel’s 17. They’d been married only six months when she disappeared. He had put in $1,000 of reward money when Rachel disappeared but then retracted it a few months later. Then in April of the following year (so 15 months after her disappearance), he filed for divorce from Rachel, which struck many as a little bit jarring given that she was still missing and not declared dead. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: That decision prompted people to take a closer look at Tommy’s personal history, and people found a pattern that some have like kind of clung on to as proof, and others have said it’s just like bad judgment from a young guy. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But I’ll give you the timeline. So in 1971, three years before Rachel vanished, when he was 19, Tommy married Shawna Ford and (like you said) had a son, Shawn. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: In April of 1974, Tommy filed for divorce from Shawna. And just 43 days later, he married our girl, Rachel. But what complicates the timeline is that during that 43-day period where he divorced his first wife and married Rachel– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –he was engaged to another woman. 

Em: Oh… 

Christine: But not just any woman. He had been engaged to Rachel’s older sister, Debra– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –who– 

Em: That’s not funny. Wow. 

Christine: –lived with them at the time of Rachel’s disappearance. Like– 

Em: You– So no, you didn’t mention any of this last week, and I rem– I remember you– 

Christine: Okay, so clearly I didn’t because you would have remembered. Yeah. 

Em: I– No, I would I remember you specifically saying at the end, “I’m going t–“ 

Christine: I think I intentionally– 

Em: –“I’m going to next week discuss Tommy and h– maybe how Debra’s involved.” 

Christine: Yes. Okay. 

Em: So– 

Christine: I made sure not to bring it up because it is a fucking doozy. 

Em: Excellent storytelling, Christine. 

Christine: But like what the fuck? But so– Okay. So when you talked to Debra about it, she basically has said and claimed – and I want to give her all the credit and independence she deserves saying this – but she said it was just like a th– like a little casual thing. Like, “We were together, we got engaged, but not really.” Like it was sort of like– 

Em: What a mess. 

Christine: –the ‘70s, like maybe he just wanted to sleep with these girls. I don’t know. People have thrown out different reasonings why he’s engaged to all these girls, but it is a little bit troubling that like she lived with her sister and her sister’s new husband when her sister’s new husband was her ex-fiancé. 

Em: Yeah. When did this– 

Christine: Only 40 days ago or whatever. 20– 

Em: When did this begin? Like was he sleeping– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –with both of them at the same time? Was anyone jealous? 

Christine: So there’s been so much speculation, and like we don’t know, which, of course, sucks. But like people have their opinions, right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And they’re going to have their opinions. But yeah, we don’t know. Um, we ha– I– We have heard that Rachel and her sister were in some, uh, company that may have been like more dangerous than the company the other girls kept, so maybe Rachel was the target of this. We don’t really know, but, um– 

Em: ‘kay. 

Christine: –we do know that Tommy had kind of like at best an unstable kind of history with relationships. Um, so he married Rachel 43 days after filing from the mother of his child, Shawna, but in between that was engaged to Rachel’s older sister. 

Em: But that’s like– It’s not, it’s not just hooking up with Debra and then hooking up with Rachel. Like it– Like that’s already messed up– 

Christine: But it might, but it might be ’cause it’s the ‘70s, you know? So like maybe– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –in their heads they were like, “We’re engaged. That’s why we can do it.” And then like maybe it was like, “Okay, we don’t really actually want to get married. We just want to have se–” you know. Like– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –some people have posited that, and I’m like, I could see that. But still, it’s still fucking weird to like live with your– 

Em: It’s still weird. 

Christine: –sister’s new husband. I mean, it’s a lot. 

Em: I like– No matter how chill these sisters are with each other– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and each other’s sex lives, a– there has to be at least one moment of a lick of insecurity from Debra when he has seen the other sister going down the hall and all of a sudden now wants to hook up with that one and not you. 

Christine: And now they’re getting married, yeah. 

Em: And now they’re getting married. So like she was worth it and not you. That would be like the first obvious thing that someone could feel. 

Christine: I mean, and like she claims they had no hard feelings. They broke up. She was in a different relationship at this point. So like– 

Em: Hm, okay. 

Christine: –you know, but like it, it– on the surface– 

Em: But only a month ago? I would still think about it. Maybe I’m just putting my own brain on it. 

Christine: –on the surface though, it doesn’t look good. Because on the surface, all of us are like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.” And like yeah, maybe they’re the two sisters in the world who don’t have any beef over this and they just would never– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –but like most people, I think, would have at least passing thoughts or insecurities or pa– whatever it might be, some sort of– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –emotional reaction to this. I don’t know. But I don’t want to like– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Everyone claims no, right? But like some people– a lot of people are like, “Well, this is still a little strange.” 

Em: 100%. 

Christine: So anyway, on that note, um, he had not just been engaged to any woman. He had been engaged to Rachel’s older sister, Debra. And at the time of Rachel’s disappearance, three of them were roommates. They lived together. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: I know. It’s messy. 

Em: Good. 

Christine: It’s messy. 

Em: It’s not good. It’s not a good look. I– 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: You did such an excellent job of not telling us this last week because– 

Christine: I sort of feel like I should have though ’cause I feel like now this is kind of a– like I should have like– 

Em: No, my– 

Christine: –given it as the climax. 

Em: My judgment would have been totally skewed last week, so. 

Christine: Mm, interesting. Okay. So some people point to Tommy’s relationship timeline. About 15 months after Rachel vanished – now we’re going forward in time– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –Tommy finalized his divorce from her, which seemed like relatively soon to some people, um, especially because [chuckles] he filed his divorce in April, and then that December, so about two years after, uh, his wife disappeared, he married another 17-year-old. This time, her name is Josephine Beck. 

Em: This guy won’t quit. 

Christine: I know. And they also got divorced, uh, by June of 1978, so like– 

Em: Can you imagine being 25 and having three divorcées? 

Christine: I know. 

Em: [chuckles] Like, stop. Just stop having– Just give it– 

Christine: He’s lucky he only has one fucking kid out of all those marriages. Like this is messy, really. 

Em: [chuckles] I know. Oh my god. 

Christine: And like if your second wife disappear– I’m not blaming him at all. I actually don’t think he’s involved. But like to have like this many– [sighs] I mean, it’s messy, dude. 

Em: Just date them. Like just stop [chuckles] marrying them. What is– 

Christine: I mean, I don’t know. 

Em: Why are you doing this? 

Christine: I don’t know if that was an– I know. I know. I know. 

Em: I mean, whatever. 

Christine: I know. It’s hard to say because like it’s the ‘70s, it’s taxes. I don’t fucking know. I have no– I don’t really have cultural– 

Em: Understandings of it. 

Christine: –understanding. Yeah. Of this. Uh, so whatever. People argue on it– about it online. People– Like I swear to god, I found arguments for everything. It was like, “it was the ‘70s. The post office delivered–“ 

Em: No? 

Christine: “–everything by the same night.” And then like I saw posts like, “No, in the ‘70s, the post office was slow as hell, especially during Christmas–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “–and like things would arrive three weeks late. So like the letter that got delivered to their mailbox couldn’t have been.” But it’s like then somebody says, “I lived in Texas in the ‘70s, and like stuff was delivered overnight all the time,” and it’s like, who the fuck am I supposed to believe anymore, you know? Like it just feels like everybody has– 

Em: Yeah, it’s– 

Christine: –a differing opinion on how things were– 

Em: Yeah, that’s too much. 

Christine: –and what was normal. So it’s just very confusing. So he married, uh, 17-year-old Josephine Beck about two years after, uh, Rachel’s disappearance. Then, by June of 1978, that marriage also ended. And then less than three months after that, he married 23-year-old Ruby Fox, whom he also later divorced before eventually marrying his current wife, Linda, with whom he has now been with for roughly 40 years. So– 

Em: And you know what? He finally found one. Great. [chuckles] 

Christine: Linda fucking is the one, I suppose. Um– 

Em: Linda, I, I don’t know how you didn’t have cold feet about that, but– 

Christine: Whoo. 

Em: –I’m so glad that you pulled through. 

Christine: Good for you. 

Em: Good for you. 

Christine: So for some folks, of course, this raised questions and probably eyebrows, but to others, it was just poor judgment, like whatever, he’s just a young guy. Um, still, it means that Tommy remains like a focal point– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –when people discuss this case. Um, over the years, theories emerged suggesting that Tommy may have had some involvement in Rachel’s disappearance, but nothing’s ever been proven. There’s really not much evidence to suggest this. Law enforcement has never charged him in connection with the case or anything even close. 

Em: Alright. 

Christine: But of course, the theories persist, especially because we really just don’t know what happened to the girls. So it’s like the theories can go off in any tangent: abduction, serial killer, the husband did it. 

Em: Yeah, it could be anything. 

Christine: You could go– The, the sister had something– I mean, you could go in every direction and just go, go, go because there really is no verifiable proof of anything. 

Em: Got it. 

Christine: So even the girls’ families, the other, the other girls’ families have made statements kind of side-eyeing Tommy. So Renee Wilson’s– Renee is the 14-year-old who went, uh, along– who was Rachel’s friend and went along for the shopping trip. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Renee Wilson’s father at one point said, “I got it in my head that him – Tommy – and Debra were involved, and until the police find someone who stands up and tells me to my face they did it, then I’m going to have that on my mind. Quite a few parents died with that thought.” So– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –a lot of people wondered ’til their dying day essentially, uh, whether Tommy had something to do with it. And– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –I will say– and I know I did hint at this in the last episode, the brother, Rusty. Now, Rusty’s– 

Em: Yeah. Okay. 

Christine: Yep. He’s the 11– He was 11 years old when his sister Rachel disappeared. Debra, the sister who had been engaged to Tommy, um, was 19. Rachel was 17, and Rusty was 11. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And he remembers going to the mall and like going store to store, asking if anybody had seen his sister. Um, he, over the years, got really, uh– I don’t even want to say invested in the case. Like it really took over his life. Um– 

Em: I don’t blame him. I would also be– 

Christine: I know. I know. 

Em: –losing my mind. 

Christine: And especially like at age 11, you feel so helpless, right? And then like you get older and you want to bring closure to your parents or to yourself or to the fam– I mean, it’s got to be just– 

Em: A nightmare. 

Christine: –like a nightmarish draw. Yeah. So he connected with this PI who had kind of taken on the case pro bono, um, wasn’t really asked to, I don’t think. He just kind of like decided to, to pursue it. His name was Dan James. And remember, I talked about a PI from last week– in last week’s episode– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –who’d passed away from a ruled suicide, and his entire library of evidence had been burned. Just– 

Em: Yes, yeah. 

Christine: –all his research had been burned. 

Em: Totally forgot about that. 

Christine: So we have a different PI here. This is Dan James. And Dan– According to Rusty’s sister, Debra, Dan James kind of infiltrated Rusty’s head with all these ideas that were, according to her, patently ridiculous. Um, he basically– or she basically accuses this PI of putting all these ideas in Rusty’s head and, you know, that Rusty’s vulnerable and he fell for all these ideas. The ideas being, not only that Tommy may have had something to do with it, but that Debra herself may have been involved as well– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –or at least known more than she let on. And as you can imagine, this created like a huge rift in the family, especially – 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: –the mother just felt like already she lost her daughter, and now her son and daughter are like, you know, at odds, and he thinks she had something to do with it. I mean, it was just a lot of heartache. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Rusty’s fixation shaped most of his adult life. In one Fort Worth Weekly profile, which was like very extensive, very well done, his sister’s disappearance is described as something that has consumed him entirely. He even wrote a song for Rachel titled “In Memory of You.” And I’m going to read you two lines from this song. The lyrics read, “You weren’t just my sister; you were my best friend. / You taught me my first guitar chords with your guiding hands.” Now, Debra stood up for herself in a written rebuttal, also in the same piece, that rejected his entire version of events and– 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: –insisted his obsession with the case had torn the family apart. She said, quote, “Rachel didn’t teach you to play guitar. I did. She didn’t even know how to play guitar. You have an uncontrollable need for things to be the way you need them to be, not the way they were.” End quote. 

Em: Whoa. 

Christine: So she is like, “Fuck off. You’re putting me in the center of this. I know you’re hurting, but like I didn’t have anything to do with it. I’m hurting too. You’re tearing the family apart, blaming me for this.” Like just a mess. And I want to also clarify like Tommy and Debra never got back together. Like it’s not like they– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –after this got married and ran away together. Like they, they never got back together or anything like that, um, because people do wonder. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Uh, but yeah, so for years these disputes kind of fractured the family, and Rusty was so like often trying to get the word out that this became– His side of the story became really well known because he’s going on local news and he’s trying to keep the case alive, but he’s also saying like, “I think my sister had something to do with it.” So he’s really propagating this idea that like things were closer to home, you know. 

Em: I mean, I, I can see both sides, ’cause if she really didn’t do anything and he’s just constantly implying that she’s a bad person, you know. 

Christine: And she– And like again, like it sucks to say this, but like he was 11. Like– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: And she and her sister were 17, 19, were very close, and it’s like how– that must be so painful to be like, “You think I did this? You weren’t even–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “You didn’t even know who taught you guitar,” you know? Like I imagine it’s just such a frustrating experience. And I will say, um, that supposedly in 2020, they reconnected and like have, have kind of, uh– I was about to say split the difference. That’s not right. Uh, they’ve kind of, uh– 

Em: They’re at a– 

Christine: –their differences. 

Em: –at a neutral, at a neutral– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: What do you say? They blank their differences. 

Em: They– Now I’ve lost my brain. 

Christine: Welcome to my brain. They’ve reconciled– 

Em: Sure, reconciled their– 

Christine: They’ve settled their differences. They’ve– 

Em: Settled, yeah. 

Christine: They’ve set aside their difference– Okay, so apparently there’s 16 things I could have said that would have worked, so– 

Em: [laughs] And we couldn’t think of any of that between us. 

Christine: –that’s fantastic for us. Yes. Uh, okay. So they’ve apparently set aside their differences and have like reconnected, which we don’t have many details on that, but we can only hope. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Um, so now I want to get into kind of the theories of what could have possibly happened to these girls. Because, as we recall, the car was found, no sign of the girls ever discovered, which is pretty abnormal for an abduction in broad daylight at a shopping mall two days before Christmas. I mean– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –it’s just ridiculous. Um, but so we have a couple theories here that are, uh, kind of related to witness sightings, that kind of thing. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So one theory, which I did mention, um, a store clerk came forward around the time of the girl’s disappearance and said that a woman, an elderly woman, had told her that she had seen the girls at the mall that day. The woman reported that she s– the elderly woman s– reported that she saw three girls being, quote, “hustled” into a yellow pickup truck near Buddies grocery store at the mall. The truck was described to have lights on top of it, so perhaps like a security ma– security pickup truck, something like that. So not only did that st-store clerk say it, but I think either one or two additional store clerks said, “Oh, this elderly woman came up and told me this story.” 

Em: Well– 

Christine: Like they independently said that. 

Em: –wasn’t there another woman who said something about, um, how they– she saw a random person also hanging out with them? Or, or is that a different person? 

Christine: So there are two other, uh, sightings, so it could be, it could be the same woman. She did say that it was a man, like basically– Oh, oh, the one you’re talking about was Rachel’s friend who said he saw them hanging out with a fourth person, but he wasn’t– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –but we never got cla– That’s– Yeah, good point. That was in a newspaper article. We never got clarity on like was this person like hovering around? Was this person like– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –a friend of theirs? Was it a girl? Was it a guy? We have no clue. 

Em: And that, and that’s– 

Christine: Um– 

Em: –that report was different than what this woman is saying. 

Christine: That’s– Exactly. That’s totally different. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So this happened, um, when the family walked around the mall that day and asked, like with Rusty and the parents asked all these store clerks, like two or three of them said, “Oh, this elderly woman came to us and said, ‘Hey, I need you to know I saw this horrible thing.’” And like yeah, nobody really did anything, but like what are they supposed to do I suppose? 

Em: Right. 

Christine: I don’t know. It’s a hard thing to argue, but they put out these statements in the newspaper like, “Hey, if you’re this woman who saw this and told these clerks, can you reach out?” And she never did. So we still don’t know who that was– 

Em: That’s so insane. 

Christine: –which is so frustrating ’cause like if two or three clerk– store clerks were like, “Oh, she came up to me,” it’s like clearly she wanted to share her story, but then she never saw the news posting or what have you. 

Em: And for all we know like she went around telling people too like, “I saw this thing, and nobody–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: “–ever reached out to me,” and she just didn’t turn on her– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: –TV on the right news station, you know. 

Christine: Exactly. And it’s like, how do you know? I wish, I wish at that time they would have been like, “Leave your name and phone number, and we’ll like–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Something, you know, but like– 

Em: Infuriating. 

Christine: –it’s just really hard to hear. So that was one of the first, uh, theories that it’s like a security van, something like that. Another sighting was, um, this man who reached out to police in 1981, which was like six years, seven years after the disappearance. He said he had been in the parking lot that day, and he had seen a man forcing a girl into a van. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: He said when he said something or started to approach that this man in the van told him, “This is a family dispute, and you have to stay out of it.” 

Em: Eugh! 

Christine: And so he backed off. And it’s like sc– again, just so scary ’cause it’s, you know, the ‘70s, like you could kind of just like [scoffs] hit your children. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: It was normal. Like so if you’re screaming at your kids and like you’re like, “It’s a family thing. Get away,” like, uh, what are you gonna do? 

Em: S– Yeah. 

Christine: I don’t know. Now, when they reached out to this man eventually, he was like, uh, he was like, “I don’t– I just didn’t– I just left it. I just left it alone.” You know? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And like that’s got to feel bad, too, right? Like years later being like, “Oh, shit. I saw something, and I didn’t say it.” But like it’s so hard in the moment. 

Em: It’s a weird place to be. It’s, it’s– 

Christine: It’s so hard in the moment to know what to do. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. I understand. 

Christine: Especially like a nine-year-old girl, you’re like, “Well, maybe it’s his kid, and he’s just a shitty dad.” I don’t know. Like you, you talk yourself out of things. Uh– 

Em: I feel like in the ‘70s so many people were– Corporal punishment was normal in a house that it– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –probably didn’t even originally phase him, uh, the way that it– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I’m sure it phased him a little bit, but not in the way that we’re probably thinking like how we would feel. So I think– 

Christine: No, right. 

Em: –I think he was just like, “Okay, like that’s weird. That guy is just like being a dick, but–“ 

Christine: That’s how he handles his family life. 

Em: “–what else is new?” 

Christine: Right, exactly. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I think that’s just not that abnormal at the time. So another angle, of course, is like they left with someone they knew or they trusted. Um, this is kind of like the secur– mall security authority angle. Law enforcement seems to lean on this theory the most. I think, to me, it makes the most sense, um, that at least one of the girls knew their abductor, or at least, they trusted him. Like maybe it was a mall security. Maybe it was a fake mall security. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Maybe it was fake police. Who knows? But like especially if this woman told two or three people that she saw a truck with lights on it and like girls being pushed into the car, it’s sort of like, “Well, yeah, maybe it was somebody saying like, ‘Hey, we think you shoplifted. Get in the, get in the car. We gotta talk– take you to the mall security office.’” Who knows, you know? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But like these are young girls, and maybe one of them either knew this employee at the mall or trusted, uh, someone in uniform. Who knows? As far as evidence of this theory goes, in April of 2001, uh, Bill Hutchins, a former Fort Worth police officer and a security guard– former security guard at the Seminary South Sears outlet, said he had seen the three girls with a security guard– and this is a police officer/security guard at this exact mall at the Sears. He said he had seen the three girls with a security guard on the night they disappeared. 

Em: Okay. And then– 

Christine: But when he said this, he was like, “No one ever reached out to me.” And so then years later, he’s like, “Hey, I sent this report in. I called this in, and nobody touched base.” 

Em: Now– 

Christine: So this is not like, “Oh, I just remembered I saw this.” 

Em: But– 

Christine: He was like, “I said something, and you guys are still asking for tips.” Like, “I told you this.” 

Em: Now that we have that information, did anyone go back in like the employee records and see who was working that day? I mean, I feel like this is a pretty easy situation to unpack if we wanted to. 

Christine: I think they just didn’t have that kind of information from the ‘70s. 

Em: Like they didn’t, they didn’t write it down anywhere back in the ‘70s? 

Christine: I really don’t think so, no. 

Em: That’s so insane. That’s wild that– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –we didn’t keep track of shit. 

Christine: I mean, I think– I mean, nowadays, everything’s like computerized. Like even today, I feel like you could botch like a worksheet, like a timesheet or something, you know? 

Em: Mm, yeah. 

Christine: And this was like the days of like you pencil it in or whatever, you know? I don’t know. Uh– 

Em: Yeah, and only if you were in the mood, and who’s gonna know? [chuckles] 

Christine: And like you’re a bunch of teenagers working at the mall and whatever. I mean– 

Em: And for all we know, it– he didn’t even actually work there. He just dressed up like a security guard. 

Christine: He could have put on a vest and been like, “Hey, I have lights on my car.” Which, by the way– 

Em: Or he– 

Christine: –some serial killers have done, and I’m gonna bring one up in a little while. 

Em: I mean, he could literally just have– he could have just said, “I’m a security guard,” and have a gun and just– 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s Texas. Yeah. Um, so now another uncomfortable avenue of speculation that I want to bring up involves Rachel and Debra’s father because he– His name was Cotton, and he was very abusive. According to Rusty, the little brother, the girls were afraid of him. And Rusty has alleged, uh, quote, “He was very abusive to the girls,” his sisters. “I’d seen him whip Debra so hard that she had blood running down her legs.” So like– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –this is a very abusive man. Um– 

Em: Holy shit. 

Christine: Yes, Rachel and Debra were very afraid of him. Uh, their mother says the same thing even though their mother has protected this man, um, her whole life. But essentially, the girls were terrified of him, which does– Like even though– I’m not saying this guy had anything to do with the disappearance, but I do want to add it as context to like why Rachel and Debra may have lived together and why– like why maybe they got married so young to get out of the house– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and leave their father’s house. Do you know what I mean? So like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –maybe the context is just like, oh, Rachel and Debra both just wanted to get out of the house, so they got engaged, got married, moved out to get away. And, you know– So that, that’s just important context, I think. He died of cancer pretty shortly after the disappearance. So, um, he was already sick by the time she disappeared, and nobody really thinks he like had anything to do with it, but it just gives good context to like why they might be running away from something, you know. 

Em: Sure, yeah. 

Christine: So now we got to go to the serial killer angle because it’s the 1970s. It’s Texas. It’s young women– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. I like how you keep saying, “It’s the ‘70s. It’s the ’70s.” It’s like, well, yeah. So there’s serial killers. 

Christine: Serial killers. 

Em: They’re a very valid theory. 

Christine: Jesus. I mean, these people. It’s like the n– 

Em: What was going on? Have you ever done the psychology of why the ‘70s was such a heightened time? 

Christine: Uh, so– I have thought about it, and I’ve heard a few theories. And I don’t know because I haven’t done my own research into it, but I have heard– either you or somebody– Maybe it was my brother. It was somebody who is full of fun facts, so it’s either you [chuckles] or my brother. But one of you said– 

Em: That’s nice to say, okay. 

Christine: –that like it could have been the lead paint. 

Em: It could have been. Oh, I– 

Christine: Like there, there was a period– I think you might have told me there was a period where like lead paint was so common that it like potentially influenced an entire generation of young men. 

Em: It could have been him. I usually use that as a reason why boomers piss me off– 

Christine: Oh, okay. [laughs] 

Em: –and I’m like, “They ate a lot of lead paint.” [chuckles] 

Christine: Maybe that was it. Maybe I, maybe I just invented it. Like I was like, “Oh, okay. Also, serial killers.” [laughs] 

Em: But that’s, that’s a much more reasonable thing. No, usually if s– if all of a sudden I’m saying something and it’s not clicking with like an adult in my life, I’m like– 

Christine: Uh-huh? 

Em: –“Is this like the lead paint stare?” I– 

Christine: The lead paint talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: I’m sorry. I know that’s like so mean to say, but also there was a lot of lead paint going on, and I can’t– 

Christine: I gotta say. 

Em: –I can’t sit here and pretend like it probably didn’t affect them. Um– 

Christine: Listen, I just learned about like some sort of toxicity to some metal, and I’m like, I don’t, I don’t fucking know anymore. Okay? 

Em: I mean, well, one day, the kids younger than us, they’re, they’re gonna blame us like having a microplastic stare. Like I don’t know. Like– 

Christine: Oh, for real. 

Em: –I can’t blame them. 

Christine: No, we’re gonna have– “They’re all psychopaths ’cause they ate–” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “–so many Lunchables.” Yeah, probably. 

Em: Um, I– Okay. So well, my thought was– Originally, my, my guess or what I was thinking you might say is because so many parents of them were like in s– like just a, a war. Just gonna put that as a blanket statement. They were just– I feel like they all were somehow affiliated with the military and maybe all had– 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: –some sort of like PTSD because it was less addressed back then and so– 

Christine: Oh, I mean, it was, it was a big time, especially for young men, like their dads being like– having shell shock, having– 

Em: World War II. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: So I feel like maybe they were just the collateral damage– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –when men came home and had PTSD. 

Christine: That’s another very big theory. And so, I feel like– I think the lead paint one is more of like kind of a jok– not– maybe not a jokey thing, but almost like a– 

Em: [chuckles] A sad reality that, uh– about other things. 

Christine: Yes, yes. Sort of like, “Let’s just throw that on top,” you know? But I think, I think you’re right about, um– you know, they say like each generation has their own like, like we are like the bright-eyed optimists who are just like [chuckles] fucking running into walls over and over– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and like the Gen Z is like, “Fuck all of you. You’re all wrong and stupid.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And like, you know, it just feels like every generation has like this reaction understandably to their previo– predecessors. And so yeah, it could be– I bet you there are plenty of dissertations and things. I would love to cover that though. I might look into that ’cause it’s fascinating. Um– 

Em: I feel like lead is– 

Christine: And it’s true. 

Em: –lead is 1% of the problem at least. Um, it’s not 0%. 

Christine: I mean, right. Exactly. Like maybe it just like cherry on top, you know. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Like just a little sprinkle of lead on top. Um– 

Em: If you ever come up with the, the official like professional medical– 

Christine: Diagnosis. 

Em: –the reasoning for why there are so many serial killers, I would love to hear the– what other people think. ’Cause I don’t know the answer, but– 

Christine: I’m curious. And also like you hear about this triad, right? You hear like bed-wetting, um, which I think a lot of that has to do with like– I mean, I don’t know. I’m– Again, I’m no psychiatrist. I’m no doctor of anything. But like, uh, you hear bed wetting. You hear like harming animals. You hear, um– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: There’s a lot of shame often. 

Em: Fire. 

Christine: Fire setting. There’s a lot of shame about like– especially if it’s like, “oh, I, um–“ like some boys wanted to look at their mom’s underwear and like wear them– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –or high heels, and like there was just so much shame around that. Um, there’s a lot of that when I read on these guys. And then, um, the other thing– [mumbling] Bed-wetting– Oh, the head injuries. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like the head injuries where it was like, “Oh, he just fell off, cracked his head open,” and they just like laid him down and said, “and then he was never the same again.” And I’m like, “Oh my god.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like not that I’m saying– like I mean, maybe head injuries– I haven’t looked at the statistics, but I feel like the head injuries back then, they would just like swing off a cliff– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –hit their head, and be like, “Just go to bed,” you know. 

Em: I feel like there’s– if there’s a Venn diagram between head injuries and serial killers, there’s at least a, a little sliver. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s gotta be a crossover, and it’s like, “Here, here just sniff this lead. It’ll make you feel better,” you know. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s like, what are you doing? 

Em: Um, I– Interesting. Yeah. And I– This is me a– again, absolutely just fucking guessing here, but I feel like a lot of the early signs seem to also be like children with some sort of like sexual interest early on, which makes me– 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: –wonder if they were abused. Um– 

Christine: There’s a lot of shame and a lot– and that– yes, that can go hand in hand with abuse. That can go hand in hand with like interests that aren’t like the “norm”, quote unquote– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –or like getting caught with like interests that are not the norm and getting like beaten for it– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –or ashamed for it, for sure. 

Em: But I feel like a lot of kids who were abused– I’m– in this case, I mean physically or sexually or whatever. Um, I, I feel like it just was easier to get away with back then because– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –there wasn’t really CPS. I think culturally there was a lot more religious shame or at least a lot– it was more of a, a blanket across the, the community. 

Christine: I think there was just shame more in general. 

Em: Everything– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Purity and all this stuff– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and, um, you know, we hadn’t known about like a lot of ways that children are getting abused and– 

Christine: Well, and then you have like boys trying– Like you want your boys to be boys, but then it’s like– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –oh, well, but their father was in the war and has this horrible shellshock and has this like CPTSD or whatever h– whatever– 

Em: Like the social expectations were– 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: –k-kept them from being able to– 

Christine: Impossible. 

Em: –to investigate it themselves and, and be curious and– 

Christine: Exactly. There’s just so many things. I think it’s probably like the most complex like situation. 

Em: Just– Yeah. 

Christine: But it’s true. There’s a serial killer angle because it’s the ‘70s. It’s Texas. And, uh, here are some of the people because, of course, there are multiple people that people point to and say, “This could be the person involved.” And they could be. Any of these could be. So some of the serial killer repeat offender names that tend to come up, uh, on places like Reddit and Websleuths. Uh, we’ve got Kenneth Granviel, who was active, um, in the ‘70s from 1974 to 1975. And to give you an idea, like this took place in 1974, so this would have been right in the timeframe. Um, he was an American serial killer who was responsible for sexually motivated murders of seven people in Fort Worth– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –from 1974 to 1975, most notably the mass murder of three women and two children. He was executed in 1996. Um, but that’s all we know. Like it’s not like we have any clue that it could have been this guy. Right? Like, it’s just like– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –“Oh, he happened to be there during this time.” 

Em: I mean, that’s a good theory. 

Christine: Yeah, but guess what? I’ve got like three more. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: And it’s like, oh, all of them could easily– 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: –be the match, you know? 

Em: Great. Yeah. 

Christine: Which is like, holy shit. Um, I’m not bringing all of them, but here’s another one. Glen Samuel McCurley Jr. This is, uh, the man responsible for Carla Walker’s murder. And I have not covered this one, but I do want to at some point. Also very sad. Carla Walker was kidnapped from a Fort Worth parking lot in February of 1974. And remember, this occurred in December of 1974– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –so just a few months later in Fort Worth. She was murdered. The method, um, like a teenager being taken from a public parking lot, a blonde young teenager, um, is the kind of parallel that people see here, uh, between the Fort Worth Trio and Carla Walker’s case. Um, McCurley was ultimately identified decades later via DNA and arrested and charged. But like again, this is just somebody who had done something in the area at that time. 

Em: Yeah. And it could– It’s anyone’s guess, yeah. 

Christine: It could be anybody. And, um, some other Texas serial killers active during this time: Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole. And they mostly, um– They, um– Whatever. They’re prolific. I covered them at some point. Dean Corll, uh, the Candy Man, uh– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –who was known for the Houston Mass Murders, but he– his crimes allegedly ended in 1973, and he typically targeted young boys and men. But like you just hear all these things, and you’re like, “Shit, it could be anybody who’s targeting like young people or people in broad daylight, and this is happening all over the place.” 

Em: Yeah. Anyone who’s got a problem with women or children or like– 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: –a problem with themselves, and they want to project it on women and children. Yeah. 

Christine: Correct. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Oof. [sighs] 

Christine: And it just seems like to be rife with this stuff. So the last person I want to bring up as a potential person, who basically just gets brought up, is Mike DeBardeleben, and he is known as the “Mall Passer,” the Mall Passer. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Um, not like the catchiest serial killer name, but– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: The Mall Passer. It’s– 

Em: Not that I want him to have a cool name, but if I were a serial killer, I would certainly want something other than Mall Passer. 

Christine: Correct. I googled that, and it was like “passing through a mall”? And I was like, “No, no, no.” Okay, let me get his name, which is so long: Mike DeBardeleben. 

Em: [chuckles] No won– He was like, “Actually, Mall Passer’s fine.” 

Christine: “Mall Passer’s good.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Just call me that, yeah. Honestly, it fits better.” So this is one of the theories. It gets brought up a lot, um, in conversations about f– the Fort Worth Trio basically because he’s known as the Mall Passer. Um, the alias refers to Mike DeBardeleben, uh, otherwise known as James Mitchell “Mike” DeBardeleben, who became notorious, um, for later criminal activity that has drawn like speculation. Um, he was an American counterfeiter, rapist, kidnapper, and suspected serial killer– 

Em: Jeez. 

Christine: –who earned his nickname because he passed counterfeit $20 bills in shopping malls across the US. And that is how they caught tha– caught him. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Um, it was like a nationwide Secret Service investigation. Um, of course, they caught him for like fraudulent money, not like potentially serial killing people, but okay. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Um, although he was not arrested for murder, evidence found after his capture in the early ‘80s, including sexual assault paraphernalia, tapes, photographs, and materials suggesting abductions, led investigators to conclude he likely committed additional violent crimes beyond counterf-counterfeiting. But he was only convicted on multiple counts of kidnapping, rape, fraud, and related offenses. But he was sentenced to nearly 400 years in prison. So they were like– 

Em: Holy fuck. 

Christine: –“We’re just gonna leave it there.” 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: But it’s possible. 

Em: Do you have a feeling about any of these people? 

Christine: [sighs] Um… 

Em: Or like not even a serial killer? Do you think it could be somebody that’s not a serial killer? 

Christine: My gut is like it was just somebody who sa– But it– Okay, my gut is like, “Oh, it was somebody that one of them knew maybe.” Like maybe somebody was targeting Rachel ’cause she’s the oldest. She had the most like biggest cir– social circle. But then I’m like, “But who would pursue three girls?” Like if she was a target, why would you pursue her if she’s there with a 14-year-old and a 9-year-old? Like it just seems like so much extra work– 

Em: My first thought, my first thought– Sorry. Go ahead. I totally interrupted you. 

Christine: No, I was just gonna say the last thing is like– and like it’s not like they all planned to be there. It’s not like somebody said, “Oh–“ 

Em: Right. 

Christine: “–they’re coming together.” It’s like some people say, “Oh, Tommy must have suggested that Rachel go shopping because like his son was coming for Christmas. Maybe he like pushed her to go shopping ’cause he wanted her to get attacked.” And it’s like– but like he had no idea she was gonna invite the random nine-year-old that she didn’t know. You know, it’s, it’s like– It just doesn’t add up. 

Em: Yeah. I agree that I think it’s somebody that either they knew or it was someone their age th– Well, here’s what I think. This is– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: You have not even given the suggestion, so I’m– I feel stupid being like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, here’s my thought.” Um– 

Christine: No, bring it up. Uh, don’t feel stupid. Look at Reddit and Websleuths– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –and then get back to me, and you’ll feel very smart. ’Cause sometimes people– I’m like, like, “Read the draft before you hit send,” you know. 

Em: Well, my thought is that it was a two-man job. I feel like it was– 

Christine: A lot of people do believe it had to be multiple people, yeah. 

Em: I feel like it had to be– That’s– Maybe not someone that they knew personally, but someone their age th– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: ’Cause that, that one person who was walking around with them that didn’t seem out of place enough for anybody to really comment on it except for one person. 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: It– 

Christine: And when they said, “Oh, they seem like they were with someone,” it’s not like, “They were with this creepy old man with a knife.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like, “Oh, they were just with a friend or somebody in their group.” 

Em: S– They would have noticed if it was a person who didn’t look their age or looked different than them in some way, so I have to imagine it was a high schooler or a younger person playing a high schooler to like, “Oh, let’s all be friends and shop together.” Or maybe it was a guy who was pretending to hit on one of them, uh, from another school. 

Christine: Okay, so I want to throw this in there. There was an employee at the mall– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –who was known for collecting applications– He worked at the mall, and he was known for collecting applications from young women, young girls, teenage girls who were applying, and he would call and leave them like sexually explicit– 

Em: I mean, come on. 

Christine: –voicemails, like that kind of thing. But then they look into him, and they’re like, “Well, we don’t know. We don’t have any proof showing it.” 

Em: [chuckles] I like that they’re like, “Hm, nothing to arrest here.” 

Christine: “Nope. Nothing–“ 

Em: “Let’s move on.” 

Christine: “Nothing wrong here. Keep working at fucking Spencer’s Gifts.”, uh– 

Em: Maybe that’s why there were so many fucking serial killers because we weren’t– 

Christine: That’s what I’m saying. 

Em: –arresting people for smaller charges yet. [chuckles] 

Christine: But that’s what I’m saying. I feel like there’s like a million reasons why this like just went bountiful in the ‘70s. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like you can’t, you can’t even pin it down to one thing. 

Em: It was lawless it feels like. It’s like– 

Christine: Lawless land. 

Em: –“Oh, you could treat girls however you want.” 

Christine: The Sears outlet. 

Em: And then it’s like, “Why are there so many sexual predators?” 

Christine: Yes. And why don’t– 

Em: “Why are there so many killers?” 

Christine: “And why don’t these girls lose more weight and take a, take a, uh, aerobics class real quick, you know?” 

Em: [chuckles] I– 

Christine: Like Jesus, leave ‘em alone. 

Em: I feel like it’s got to be– I mean, I immediately– My gut is that guy then immediately. But I– If not, then I would say it’s still someone young enough that he could hit on them and it wasn’t weird and blah-blah-blah– 

Christine: But then you think like, “Oh, he went like from that a– from that level of just like leaving prank calls to like abducting three girls and never finding a trace of them?” Like it’s just like– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –how do you a– which I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m just saying like it’s shocking to think like somebody can just escalate to a point where like there’s never been a clue. And I will tell you Rusty has fucking combed this city. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: He has, he has gotten– He’s, uh, collected money to, to, to take cars out of the river and like look into the cars. I mean, he’s– divers, all– $10,000 to pull them out. 

Em: I mean, I know Rusty and Debra had have like their own very reasonable headbutting. Very– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –very legitimate reason to be mad at your brother for accusing you of something. 

Christine: Yeah, [chuckles] for real. 

Em: However, that aside, Rusty’s the fucking brother of the year, like to– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –um, to Rachel to be like, “I will not rest until I figure out what the fuck happened to you.” 

Christine: Well, and it’s– 

Em: “And I will, I will consider everybody, including our other sister,” like that’s– 

Christine: Well, it’s really sad because it– 

Em: I get that too. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s really sad because he’s like basically devoted his whole life to it. And he said like “Until my last dying breath, like I will not stop looking.” And it’s like just really sad because– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I’m not saying it’s sad because like he cares about his sister and wants to solve the murder, but he has even said like, “I wish I had time to work. Like I wish I had time to even–“ Like he– It has consumed him and– 

Em: It’s eating him alive. 

Christine: Yeah, it is eating him alive. 100%. And, um, you know, I can only hope that this leads to an answer, but if it doesn’t, it’s like just how much hardship, you know, um, they’ve gone through at the expense of this. And I’m not saying like, “Oh, leave it alone.” Like, I don’t think I could ever leave it alone, frankly. But like, it’s much it’s easier said than done. But yeah, it is, it is like brother of the year. Like he has– On his guitar, he has Rachel’s, um, signature like etched into it and stuff, you know. Like he’s really devoted to solving this. 

Em: It’s obsessive, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s obsessive, and he’s devoted to finding her. But, you know, at what cost, right? Like he’s kind of isolated himself from a lot of the family– 

Em: Yeah. He has– 

Christine: –and he’s kinda clung on to a lot of theories that like they don’t believe. 

Em: And he’s sacrificed the relationship with the sister he does still have, you know. 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Oh, and I want to add– I meant to mention this earlier. I cannot believe I forgot to mention this. He and this, um, PI believe that she’s still alive. 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: I forgot to mention this ’cause it’s so jarring every time I hear it, but, uh– Maybe not anymore, but at the time in like the late– in like the 2000s, uh, era, he believed that Rachel was still alive. He believed she visited Fort Worth every Christmas, but he believed someone was holding her captive– 

Em: That's sick. 

Christine: –and like allowing her to visit every Christmas. But like– 

Em: Huh. 

Christine: –I just started to think like that seems a little mit– bit much like a stretch to me. That feels like a stretch. 

Em: It does to me too. I understand like desperately holding out hope, but– 

Christine: The wanting of it, of course. 

Em: But it does sound like a stretch. 

Christine: And it’s happened, right? Like we’ve had Elizabeth Smart. We’ve had people where it’s like, “Oh, crazier things have happened, for sure.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But it’s like he– you know, he thinks that, um– So what they believe is that, or what they believed at least at the time of reading this reporting, is that, um, Julie Anne Moseley, who was nine, and– uh, was killed in some sort of tragic like violent situation that had to do with this abdu-abduction. They believe that, um, Renee has been killed since then, but they believe that Rachel is still alive and that she visits every Christmas. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: And so– But he– And then he still has claimed like with that that Tommy and perhaps Debra have had something to do with it, and Debra’s like– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: –“What the fuck? No, I don’t.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So it’s a very hard thing to kind of parse because you’re like, ‘Uh…” 

Em: Yeah, there– 

Christine: It’s a bold statement. 

Em: There’s a fine line between like wanting to st-still believe, but also– Yeah. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. 

Em: Well, I mean, my, my thought is that some younger guy lured them away and then someone– maybe a security guard who– maybe someone who got a job there just to work at the mall to scout out people, I think there– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –I think they worked together. 

Christine: Clearly, it’s a thing if this one guy’s like just calling applicants to harass them sexually. 

Em: Yeah. Maybe the security guard knew about that guy, and then they decided to work together. And so that way– 

Christine: Team up. 

Em: –the guy only had to lure them out, and then someone who was okay with being more– 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: –violent and aggressive like tr-trafficked them. 

Christine: And I believe Renee had applied to a job there. Or it was one of the girls had applied to a job at that store where this guy, this creepy dude, was working. So it’s like he at least had– 

Em: Yeah, I, I feel like they could have teamed up. If– I mean, if there’s– Let’s pretend there’s a security guard, you know, who’s not afraid to drag people out, which people did see. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: There’s a creepy guy who’s working there. You know, the two of them are gonna find each other and at least talk about creepy things– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and what they would– how far they’re willing to go, and “Oh, we could work together.” I think it was a trafficking thing. 

Christine: “Who’s your favorite l–“ Okay, the trafficking is a big theory. And, um, w– the sister, Debra, has called it “white slavery,” and people have talked about like, “What’s white slavery?” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And I’m like, I feel like I studied that in high school. Like it was called “white slavery” even when I was like in high school. This was a thing. Um, human trafficking had an unfortunate name of “white slavery” back in the day because people I think were trying to say like, “Oh, you thought it could just happen to people–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–Black folks? No, uh, there’s white slavery. Isn’t that shocking?” But like– 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: –the term– at least, uh, I remember it being used as like a term for trafficking. Um– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and so one of the theories that Debra has is like perhaps it was a trafficking scheme or something like that. But then you just wonder like– What bothers me is that it’s three girls at the mall, but they weren’t planning to be there. It’s like within like– 

Em: Well, that’s why I think it’s like– I mean, there’s so– Sorry. Sorry, I keep interrupting you. Go ahead. 

Christine: No, no. I want you to say what you want to say because I feel like I need someone to like explain that to me. 

Em: Well, I, I know that there’s a lot of trafficking, uh, scams or, or attempts at like grocery stores or things like that. And a lot of time, one of the two people that are working together, it is someone who makes you feel safer. So a lot of times, it’s a woman or– 

Christine: Ohh… 

Em: –someone your age, and she’ll say like, “Can I– Oh, I, I forgot my phone, and I’m, I’m trying to call my boyfriend." 

Christine: [sucks in a deep breath and sighs] 

Em: And– Or, “Oh, you look–“ Even if it’s just like a convers– Like they could hand you something. Maybe there’s a tracker in it. I don’t fucking know. Or they’ll follow you to your car, and you feel safer ’cause it’s a girl in your car. 

Christine: Well, and you think the ‘70s, they were, they were like, “I’m a photographer–” I mean, if men could be like, “I’m a photographer. Come model for me–” 

Em: Yeah. I think– 

Christine: –like a woman could probably convince you of anything. 

Em: I think these days– I don’t– I’m not a fucking trafficking expert. But I– The stories I’ve heard, at least the ones that are most successful, is that when one person in the, in the plot is a woman because– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –women feel safer with women. So, um, and usually they’re someone who’s also been trafficked, and now they’ve been trusted enough to now help with the new “recruiting” or whatever it– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –or whatever it is. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, and then they could say like– I don’t know. Insert anything where you would feel much safer– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –if a woman asked and not a man and then somehow– 

Christine: Just like disarm you, yeah. 

Em: –the transfer happens where now there’s a m– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: Or like, “Oh, can–“ There have been ones that have been around here where, um– It was like two years ago now where a girl was going up to people in like Walmart and saying, “There’s a guy that’s really creepy, and he’s, he’s really freaking me out. Can you walk with me to my car?” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And then they’re tricking you, and then now you’re in their car. 

Christine: Like holy shit, dude. 

Em: It’s like– So, unfortunately, you can’t fucking trust anybody. Um, but yeah, not good stuff. 

Christine: But it’s the ‘70s. I mean, not to say it again like– 

Em: It’s the ‘70s. So– But if there, if there was a guy who was kind of creepy and maybe he was– Or for what these girls saw, my thought is that maybe he approached them and said, “Oh, one of you applied to the store, right? Oh, well, I’m off right now, but we can all like hang out and get to know each other, and like let’s, let’s go to the food court.” 

Christine: But so do you think they had this like pl– So my, my– Then my question is like, “Then what happened?” Because all three girls were never found. And I’m like, that suggests like some sort of like, “We got them out of here. We either hid them so well that like they were never found–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–or we got them like trafficked out of the country.” Like I don’t know. I, I just wonder– 

Em: In my mind– 

Christine: –like how did they do that? 

Em: I mean, again, this is– I’m fully guessing here, but my– I would– 

Christine: No, no, no, I’m curious though, really. 

Em: I would imagine they were kidnapped to be assaulted by the two of them, and then when they were done with them, killed them– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –or maybe knew somebody else and sent them somewhere else, and then it actually did become a trafficking situation versus like “let’s plot together to get– You know, those are some cute girls, let’s go get them.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I don’t know. I have fucking no fucking idea. 

Christine: It’s just so wild to me that like two days before Christmas, you’re just like at the mall, and you’re like, “Oh, perfect. Three blonde girls that I can like erase off the planet immediately.” And like– 

Em: It’s crazy. 

Christine: –obviously it happens because it happened. But like I think that’s why this case is just so like shocking because, as police said, “We cannot get out of this parking lot.” Like we have this parking lot. We have the car in the parking lot. We cannot get past the parking lot. We don’t know– We don’t know what happened. 

Em: Yeah. I, I am– I– All I know, uh, i– Well, I don’t know anything, but my, my gut would be that the– it was a two-man job that got them in the car. I’m sure– 

Christine: Agreed. 

Em: –assaulted them at least first before other people did or– 

Christine: I like– I– 

Em: –or was just for them. I don’t know. 

Christine: 100% agree. I believe it was at least a two-man job. I, I also agree. My gut would say two-man job. My gut would say it’s somebody who either had a mall security job or– 

Em: Or looked like one. 

Christine: –or feigned a mall security job. And, um, the one guy I brought up– Let me find his name. Oh, Mike DeBardeleben. He was known to fake being a cop. Like he would just get lights– 

Em: Are you fucking kidding me? Come on. 

Christine: I’m serious. Like he would research how to like pull s– people over and stuff. So it’s like– but this happened all the– I hate to say all the time, but like it’s the ‘70s. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like it happened all the time. Like people– Because there’s no– It was like that perfect sweet spot of like no– like no stranger danger yet, like no, um, security cameras, uh, like you ha– Women are more independent, so they’re going to the mall by themselves or what have you. Like it was that perfect sweet spot. 

Em: I– Sorry, go ahead. 

Christine: Ah-eugh! That’s all I have to say. 

Em: I feel, I feel like, um, it also had to be someone that they don’t know or like it had to be like an impulsive decision by these people because– 

Christine: I would think so. 

Em: –with two days before Christmas, if anyone was planning this for a while, they would have been like this is such an obvious time where people are going to be wondering where they are. This– 

Christine: Well, and also like it was only supposed to be– Like Rachel came up with the idea that morning to go to the shopping mall– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –and then called around a bunch of people, and everyone said no. So it’s like it could have been another girl– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –but like she called this girl, and then this girl happened to be with her boyfriend whose little sister was there who asked to come. Like it was originally just supposed to be Rachel and like she– 

Em: Nobody and then her and then– 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. So– 

Em: It has to be an impulse grab. 

Christine: It has to be impulsive. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Or at least it has to be something that somebody planned and said, “I don’t care that there are suddenly two more girls–“ 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: “–involved. We’ll still go through with it,” which seems unlikely to me.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: But who knows, you know? People are unwell. 

Em: Which is also– That’s also why I think it had to be a two-person job because they had to assume that, based on numbers, they could take all three of them. 

Christine: That at least a girl would– Like the little girl would be like, “What the fuck?” you know– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –like, “I don’t want to go with these guy–“ or, or the oldest, who knows? But yeah, I just– 

Em: And that– 

Christine: It’s hard to believe. 

Em: –also makes me think that they certain– I mean, people already saw the security guard. I know with full confidence that he used the gun as a weapon because how else do you wrangle three people? And none of them ran away or screamed if you didn’t threaten somebody that you’d hurt them? 

Christine: And witnesses said like, “Oh, they were being, quote, ‘hustled’ into a car.” And I’m like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –you don’t get hustled into a car unless– Three girls don’t get hustled into a stranger’s car unless like there’s something going on. Like they’ve either– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –convinced you of a story line like, “You’re going to the police station ’cause you shoplifted,” or, uh, “I have a gun, and you can’t fight me.” Who knows? But– 

Em: Or even the little one, like she could have ran away, but it’s like, “I’ll shoot your sister.” Like it could be– 

Christine: Yeah. Who knows? Exactly. And I wonder like if that woman, that older woman who saw this like if they had found her, I just really wish– I would really wish that they had, and I– Obviously, it’s too late now. I assume she’s older, like passed, but, man, that would have been a, a good clue ’cause she apparently told multiple people like, “I just saw–“ And she told them that day before they were ever reported missing. 

Em: She was like– 

Christine: Like, “I just saw something really weird.” 

Em: She had a gut feeling. 

Christine: “She’s like, “I just saw these people, like these girls getting like pushed into a car.” 

Em: Yeah. She had a gut feeling, and she knew. 

Christine: And then they never found her. Yeah. 

Em: Well, [sighs] good storytelling, but bad ending. 

Christine: [sighs] See something, say something, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. And also everyone look out for even women being weird in public spaces because if they try to– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: –grab your phone or take anything from you or, you know, maybe even get so close as like– I know this is crazy, but I’ve heard horror stories of like them dropping something in your bag, and it’s like a GPS tracker– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –or like get close enough to your phone that their phone also do like the Bluetooth thing– 

Christine: Yep. 

Em: –and now they got info on you. Um, if someone says, “Come to my car with me–” It used to be when you were kids like, “Don’t follow the person who says that they lost their puppy.” But now, as an adult, don’t follow even girls– 

Christine: 100%. 

Em: –who say that they’re scared. Just say, “I’ll call the police with you right here.” 

Christine: Like– Really, because like Dean Corll was called the Candy Man, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And he had a candy shop, and it was like, “Oh, he was giving out candy,” and now it sounds so ridiculous like, “Oh, don’t take free candy from strangers.” But it’s like, no, this is like the same idea. Like don’t just trust somebody be– inherently– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –because they say they’re uncomfortable or in danger, which sucks ’cause like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –you want t– But they’re using that against us. But it’s like you want to be able to help somebody who’s– 

Em: Like– 

Christine: –who’s feeling threatened. 

Em: Allison and I, um, recently walked past someone who like seemed that they genuinely needed help and they needed a phone, needed a phone, and I was like, “You can tell us the phone number, and we’ll put you on speaker, and you can yell from over there.” 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. 

Em: [chuckles] It’s like, it’s like, “Sorry, it’s not you, but it’s just the world. I don’t just trust– You just gotta scream into the phone from over here.” Um– 

Christine: Did it work? Did they do it? 

Em: It worked. Yeah, yeah. And then– 

Christine: Oh, okay. ’Cause one time– 

Em: –and they did just truly need help. I felt bad afterwards, but– 

Christine: One time, when Blaise and I [chuckles] were like first dating in like 2014 or 2013, um, he, he still had like a flip phone like back in the day, and I had an iPhone, and somebody stopped us in– like at night. We were walking from somewhere, and somebody stopped us and said like, “Can I borrow your phone?” And, uh, I was like, “Yeah, you can borrow my boyfriend’s phone.” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: And Blaise like handed his flip phone, and they were like, “Never mind,” and they handed it back. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Like they clearly were gonna try to steal your fucking phone. 

Christine: And we were like, “Holy shit.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Uh-huh. 

Christine: But so yeah, you never know. And back then like there wasn’t really Find My, you know. 

Em: Find My Friends or Find My Phone. 

Christine: Like if you lost your phone, you lost your fucking phone. So, um, I– 

Em: Oy-yi-yi. 

Christine: –remember being like, “Wow, that was the one time his flip phone came in handy,” you know. The person was like, “Eh, never mind.” They like didn’t even want it. [laughs] 

Em: I remember one time someone tried to steal my Back to the Future hat. Um– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: –and this was when I had long hair, and I had my like ponytail through the hole in the hat, and so they couldn’t get it. And then– 

Christine: Who does that? 

Em: And then we– 

Christine: Like they tried to grab it off you? 

Em: They tried to rip it off of me, and they didn’t know that it was like gonna be like attached to my head. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And then we just awkwardly stood there, and I was like, “Did you just– 

Christine: Ahh! 

Em: [chuckles] I was like, “Did you just try to steal my hat?” And then he just– 

Christine: Yeah, by the way, like “Look me in the fucking eye, and tell me what you just tried to do.” 

Em: I did. I was like, “Did you just try to steal my hat?” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And then he just ran away. [laughs] I was like– 

Christine: Like, “Hello?” 

Em: That’s so weird. Yeah. 

Christine: That was like the time we handed the phone over, and he goes, “Never mind.” And we went– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –“So we all know what you were trying to do here. Great, thank you.” 

Em: Did, did you– Did he stay for a second and you like–? 

Christine: No, he fucking bolted. 

Em: Okay. Okay. 

Christine: Bolted. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And we were like, “Cool. Understood.” 

Em: That’s so– And that– weirdly so violating, bu– even though like not– nothing was officially stolen, but it’s like to know that you almost fell into it– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –it’s like– 

Christine: And the dumbest part is like he’s like our age, and I was like, “This fucking guy,” it just like– And you want to believe people when they’re like, “I’m in trouble”– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like, of course. And like your gut instinct is like, “Oh, I’ll help.” And then this time, I remember Blaise going– Like he– Sometimes his fucking dumbass brain, left brain, right brai– whatever it is. He’s like, “Here, use my phone.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And the guy goes, “No, thanks.” And Blaise is like, “Here we go.” [laughs] 

Em: I mean, honestly– 

Christine: “My flip phone came in handy.” 

Em: –that makes me feel like I should just have a burner flip phone in case– 

Christine: Just to hand out. 

Em: Just to hand out in case someone needs it. And I’m like, “Well, if you steal it, it’s a burner flip phone. It’s fine.” 

Christine: I’ve for sure given people my iPhone, and then my thought is always, “Well, I have Find My Friends. I’ll track it, I guess, if this person runs away.” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: But like twice now, it’s been somebody who actually just needed to borrow my phone, and I’m like, “Okay.” 

Em: You know, there’s– 

Christine: But it is hard to know. 

Em: –there’s a new way now. I don’t know how to do it. I really– I need a younger person to teach me how to do like shortcuts like v– like, um, verbal shortcuts on your phone– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: –because there’s something you can like– you can program your phone where if you say like, “My phone’s being stolen,” as example, or something, if you say something, um, then it will trigger your phone to immediately open Find My Friends on all your other devices and take a picture, so it sees whoever is– Oh, it’s like a text. You could text, “My phone just got stolen,” and when then they open the text, it’ll screensh– take a picture of their face– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –and send it to Find My Friends and call the police. It’s like– I don’t know how they do that, but there’s a lot of cool things you can do with shortcuts that I don’t know how to do. But, um– 

Christine: I tried to use shortcuts for a while, and it annoyed me because it like takes an extra two seconds, and I’m– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –as I said, a Gemini, and I don’t have two seconds. 

Em: I don’t have time for that, yeah. Oy. [sighs] 

Christine: Just steal my phone, you know. 

Em: Well, anyway, thank you for your story, and thank you– 

Christine: Oof. It’s been a wh– I feel like it’s been a while for a two-parter, but yeah, it needed to be– 

Em: I like two-parters. 

Christine: –needed to be done. 

Em: I like two-parters a lot. 

Christine: You know, Leona’s favorite thing like when we watch her kids’ shows, if there’s ever part one, part two, she fucking freaks out, and she’s like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –“It’s a part one! It’s a part one, Mom!” And I’m like, “Yay!” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: And it’s so funny ’cause I’m like, I don’t know what it is about the part one, part two, but man, she gets so fucking amped about it. 

Em: I know what it is. It’s that it, it hasn’t ended yet. It’s– There’s still more to go. 

Christine: Like a cliffhanger, and then you get more. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And I’m like, “Have you heard of movies?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Those are long,” but nah. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: She’s like me. She just wants TV, TV, TV. 

Em: That’s very– That’s a nice reminder to be excited about part ones and part twos because when it– 

Christine: Man. 

Em: –in, in movie worlds, I’m like, “What do you mean I watched three hours of this and it’s not even done?” [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, I can’t do that with a movie. I don’t think she’d ever accept that with a movie. 

Em: Well– 

Christine: She’d be like, “Where is it right now?” 

Em: –the next big Marvel movie coming out is a part one, and it’s– I’m just like so– You know Infinity War? You remember my opinion about– 

Christine: I remember Infinity War. 

Em: You remember the whole ex– So they have another one of those coming out where it’s the part one of the next big one, and then I’m going to have to wait a whole year for the second half to come out. 

Christine: I mean, after Wicked, I’m like, this is a lot that they’re putting through you mentally, emotionally, spiritually. 

Em: Wicked made sense because it was literally act one and act two of a play. 

Christine: At least– Fair enough. At least you could like mentally prepare for that kind of thing. Yeah. 

Em: But still– I mean, but also, as much as I s– just said that, I’m also going to step back immediately because the play itself was three hours long. We could have just done act one and act two. 

Christine: True. 

Em: [chuckles] You know. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Um, but anyway, I– 

Christine: Yeah, I saw that fucking play in one fucking afternoon, baby. 

Em: Yeah, exactly. I ha– I saw that for lunch. 

Christine: Get it done. 

Em: I saw that for lunch. 

Christine: I saw that for lunch and had a, a crab salad. [laughs] 

Em: Exce– Excellent. You really nailed that one there. 

Christine: We’ve all been there. 

Em: [laughs] Um, no. But when, when, uh, the next Avengers movie happens, I’m going to be like– I’m going to try to be like Leona and be like, “It’s just part one. It’s just–“ But I feel like I’m going to go, “It was only part one. Are you–“ 

Christine: “Seriously? I have to wait?” 

Em: Well, the last time there was a part one, it ended with every single person dying, and then I had to wait a year to find out how they stop being dead. 

Christine: Super duper. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Man, they’ve really got you whipped, huh? 

Em: They’re going to do it again. I can already feel it, so. 

Christine: I just– Like with her at least when it’s a part one, it’s like, “Part two will happen in three, two, one. Cool. Netflix has started part two.” 

Em: Yes, yes. 

Christine: Like if there’s not like a “you have to wait”– I don’t think she’s encountered that yet, and I think it would make her just as absolutely fucking insane as it would make me and you. 

Em: [chuckles] Anticipation. I can’t tolerate it. 

Christine: Yeah. Oh, no. No patience. 

Em: No. No. 

Christine: I said– I– Sometimes I’m like, “I know waiting is hard.” And she’s like, “I hate it!” I’m like– 

Em: I also hate it. 

Christine: –“Me too! I don’t know what to tell you. It sucks.” 

Em: [laughs] Well, uh, I hope you have fun. Is Blaise still sick or you guys good now? 

Christine: No, he’s way better– 

Em: Good. 

Christine: –except that he probably can’t carry this toilet. 

Em: Oh, yeah! 

Christine: But other than that, yeah, 100– 

Em: Good, good luck with the potty. 

Christine: 104 pounds. Wish me luck. 

Em: Is he gonna expect you– to carry that with you? 

Christine: Me? No. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: He said Tim has to carry it. And Tim– 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: –Tim got back last night from Germany at like 11:30, so, um– 

Em: [chuckles] “Wake up, Tim.” [laughter] “We have a job for you.” 

Christine: “Good morning! Guten Morgen. Uh, it’s time to–“ By the way, I just scratched my eyebrow and like picked up my weed vape. I’m like, “Good morning, Tim. It’s time to carry my toilet up the stairs.” 

Em: There’s a– Is there like a famous “guten morning” song because when I was staying– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: –with Allison’s family, um, they have a second little house in– on their property that is where Allison and I stay, but they have like all their like Alexas and everything attached to– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: So in the morning, I woke up to our– the Alexa in that house blaring, [singing] ♪ Guten Morgen / guten Morg– ♪♪ or whatever the song is. 

Christine: No. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t think I’ve ever heard that song outside of my father waking me up at age 4 or 5 and then like again at age 16. And the song is [singing] ♪ Guten Morgen / guten Morgen ♪ 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: ♪ Guten Morgen, Sonnenschein / Und du darfst nicht traurig sein ♪♪ which means “good morning, good morning, sunshine.” Um– 

Em: I got that. [laughs] 

Christine: And “you are not allowed to be sad.” 

Em: [laughs] Yes, you’ve told this before. 

Christine: I’ve told this before. 

Em: I, uh, I know for you that feels like– 

Christine: It goes, “Good morning, sunshine. You’re not allowed to be sad.” 

Em: I– 

Christine: Which is like, what? And I mean, “traurig” means like “I’m crying ’cause I’m sad.” It’s not like, “Oh, you’re not allowed to be melanch–“ It’s like “you’re not allowed to be sad, you dumb bitch. Wake up.” And it’s like– 

Em: I– 

Christine: –“Okay, good morning.” 

Em: I know for you that feels like, um, you’re four and probably back in Germany or something, but for me, I feel like I’m right back in South Carolina all of a sudden. Like– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: But, uh, they were just– 

Christine: “Good morning, sunshine. You’re not allowed to be sad.” 

Em: Christmas morning, they were just blaring it ’cause it was obvious that they were saying like, “Wake up.” [laughs] 

Christine: Okay, but like, so where did they come up with that? ’Cause I’ve never heard that outside of my own father. Like even my mother doesn’t– 

Em: Well, Allison’s mom speaks German, I think. 

Christine: I know, but like did she learn that on– Like I need to talk to her. Like did she learn that on like an exchange trip? Is this something they play– 

Em: Yeah, she– 

Christine: –all the time? Is this– She, she speaks very good German. I’ve spoken to her in German. I just wonder like is this a song that like she learned when she lived in Germany? Is this something that also haunted her as a child? Like– 

Em: [chuckles] No– 

Christine: –I have so many questions. 

Em: –she, she lived in Germany, I think, for a few years when she was an adult. Um– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, so I’m guessing that’s where she learned it, but she certainly like– You know, she was like born in Jersey, so I don’t– [laughs] 

Christine: I know. I have so many questions where this came from. 

Em: I don’t know what her childhood situation is. Or Delaware. 

Christine: Because like– 

Em: Or something. 

Christine: –there’s not a place that I learned that from except from a person screaming it at me in the morning. And it’s– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It's like a really– It’s like one of those things you don’t really learn until someone screams it at you in the morning. 

Em: Well, we’ve both had that experience now, which is lovely and bonding. 

Christine: I was going to say, and I feel like now we’re bonded in some sick way. 

Em: I, I kind of get why the song says “stop crying” because I was cry– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: It was so early. I was like I– 

Christine: And does it make you stop crying? ’Cause it makes me like cry more. 

Em: [quietly] No. 

Christine: I’m like,”You can’t–“ I’m like, “Don’t tell me what to do.” 

Em: Allison was trying to be nice and like give me like a hug good morning. And I was like, “Get the fuck away from me.” 

Christine: “Get the fuck away.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: When I try to wake Leona up, by the way, like before school, which we can talk about next episode, but like waking this girl up for preschool, I’m like, “I know the pain you’re in. Like, I know it–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–and I feel it because I’m in it too. And I’d rather die than like make you go to school right now.” 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: “But like, you gotta go to fucking school because–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–also I have to go back to bed.” 

Em: I– 

Christine: Like, “I’ve been up all night ’cause you have been having your moment, and puppy didn’t go to puppy school, right? Or whatever. And like, it’s just been a long day.” 

Em: [laughs] To– Cer– 

Christine: But like, oh my god. Oh my god. 

Em: Not the best parenting on my end– or on my mom’s end. But once I got into a college, I would just wake up, and I’d tell my mom like, “I’m not going. I’m too tired.” And she’d go– 

Christine: “I’m not– That’s not happening.” 

Em: –“Whatever.” She– [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, like in high school– 

Em: In high school. 

Christine: –you were like, “I’m done. I’m not going.” Yeah. 

Em: Uh, yeah. No. If– Once I got into college and I was just like kind of riding out senior year, uh, she would be like, “As long as you don’t have a test today, I don’t care what you do.” And I– 

Christine: Oh, it’s like hard to even fight anymore. 

Em: She was like, “You already made it, so just whatever.” 

Christine: I literally woke her up, and she just like fucking screamed like a banshee and was “Rahh!”– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and then like ripped the blanket over her head, and I’m like, “Oh my god, I’m going to get injured. I’m going to get hurt. I don’t know what to do.” And I’m like– 

Em: My mom still– I– You might be able to relate to this. My, my mom, when she wakes me up to this day– I must have been like Leona, I guess, when I was a kid, because I don’t think I’m this terrible anymore when– 

Christine: [chuckles] She’s– [points down at the ground in front of her] 

Em: –I’m waking up, but she will straight up– If she has to wake me up, like we’re on a vacation or whatever, she’ll like nudge me and then back up like I have– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –a gun. [laughs] 

Christine: She, she’s like– 

Em: And she’ll go, “It’s me. It’s me. It’s me.” 

Christine: –out of, out of the, out of the circle– What do you call it? Like the, the danger zone. Out of the danger zone. 

Em: The berth, the wide berth. 

Christine: Back up. 

Em: But she really will back up and go, “It’s me. It’s me. It’s me,” as if I like am gonna hit her in the face. I don’t know what I did to her when I was– 

Christine: You’re gonna like detonate a bomb. Jesus. 

Em: Just know if you end up there with Leona, you’re not the only one, and you can call my mom for help. [laughs] 

Christine: I do sometimes feel like that. I will come in, and she’ll like look at me. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And if it’s Blaise, she’ll go, [mimicking screaming] “Get out!” And if it’s me, she’ll be like, [growls], and I’m like, “Okay, I’m allowed to enter.” And then it’s like I turn the sound machine off, and she’s like, “Turn it on!” And I’m like, “You have to leave in seven minutes. Like, I’m texting your dad right now like, ‘Put some muffins in a Tupperware by the front door.’ Like we gotta get–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like it, it, it’s gotten– 

Em: And slowly back away. 

Christine: It’s gotten insane. It’s gotten un– insane. And Blaise today was like, “Hey, I think we need to like start back to where we were like waking her up at a normal time and not just like hoping she gets up.” But– And I was like 

Em: I– 

Christine: –“Okay, but we’re all gonna suffer.” 

Em: I think you’re gonna really like this. I, I got a kick out of it when I went to the family reunion. Um, Allison’s brother has a daughter, and she– At some point, I saw her like not getting her way– She’s Leona’s age. I saw her not getting her way– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –and I saw her make this face where she was like holding in all the anger, and she went, “Hrgh!” And then she did this with her hands, [clenches both hands into fists and then flicks all of their fingers out, holding their hands out in front of them] and I was like, “Oh my god, she’s like trying to like regulate her emotions. That’s like really– Like I know she looks mad, but like it’s nice that she’s trying to like keep it together.” 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: And– 

Christine: And then use the power. 

Em: Well, so I al– I saw her do this, but I thought she was just like freaking out, and I was like, “Oh, she’s like trying to keep it together, trying to keep it together.” And then her, [chuckles] her parents were like, “No, she’s trying to ice blast me like Elsa.” [laughs] 

Christine: No, no, I was about to say Leona does that, but she’s trying to freeze me. 

Em: Yes, freeze– Literally ice blast. 

Christine: I’m so serious. 

Em: That’s so weird that they bo– 

Christine: She literally goes like this, and I’m like, “Oh, she’s trying to get her like energy out”– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –and she’s like, “Freeze.” 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: And I’m like– 

Em: No, she was literally trying to channel all of her energy into an ice blast. [laughs] 

Christine: I’m so serious. This is a real thing. 

Em: That’s so weird. I thought that, that she was– 

Christine: Holy shit. 

Em: –the only kid. I thought I was gonna do– 

Christine: I– 

Em: That’s so funny. 

Christine: I certainly have not heard of another– Okay. Well, this is great. 

Em: Well– 

Christine: Let’s talk off-air ’cause I need help. [laughs] 

Em: Leona and Allison’s niece, um, are both Elsa apparently. 

Christine: No, th– She literally is like [staring intently, hand outstretched offscreen], and I’m like, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, “Oh my god, she’s trying to freeze me.” 

Em: For the rest– 

Christine: “Oh my god, she’s trying to freeze me.” 

Em: For the rest of the family reunion, it was so funny ’cause you would just hear in a– in another room, you hear, “Stop ice blasting me. Stop ice blasting me.” [laughs] 

Christine: “Stop.” And so Leon will go, “Freeze!” And then we'll freeze, and she’ll be like, “Nobody can unfreeze you but Daddy.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And it’s like, “Well, he’s upstairs. What the fuck do you want me to do?” And I start to text him like, “Come unfreeze me,” and she’s like, “You can’t text him.” 

Em: [laughs] You’re just in jail. 

Christine: And I’m like, “I– Honestly, I’m just in Frozen jail.” 

Em: Oh my god. Okay. I– 

Christine: She’s watched the movie like three times. It’s not even like she watches the movie. She just is like, “I am gonna freeze blast you.“ 

Em: She watched it enough to know what she needed to do. Um– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: I’m so happy that– to know that there’s not another– that there’s another kid doing this. Imagine if the two of them met each other– 

Christine: No. 

Em: –and both tried to blast each other. What happens then? 

Christine: Can’t be. Can’t be. Can’t be. 

Em: I think their brains would explode. They’d go, “What do you mean you know my powers?” [laughs] 

Christine: Things would be– They’d either like ruin the world or– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –ruin the world. I don’t know. Something– Maybe save the world. 

Em: [sighs] Okay, I will leave you alone. Um, but, uh, thank you, everyone, for listening– if you’re still listening, and, uh, we’ll see you next week. 

Christine: See you next week, and, uh, thanks for being you. Freeze blast! 

Em: Freeze blast! And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink.

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