E465 Non-Parallel Traumas and Neighborhood App Ghosts

TOPICS: MARY E. HART AKA MIDNIGHT MARY AND MARY E HART, THE FORT WORTH TRIO PT. 1: MARY RACHEL TRLICA, LISA RENEE WILSON, JULIE ANN MOSELEY

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One Flurida adventure and several new years eve pooch smooches later we’ve made it to 2026! This week Em kicks off Episode 465 with a double Mary feature, covering two paranormal Mary E. Harts, a.k.a. Midnight Mary and Noontime Mary. Then Christine covers Part 1 of a missing persons case that just passed its 51st anniversary, the Fort Worth Trio. And who’s joining us with our new moto for 2026 of embracing change?! …and that’s why we drink!

Photo Links:
Fred Watkyns Photo
Fort Worth Trio: Mary Rachel Trlica, Lisa Renee Wilson, Julie Ann Moseley
The Letter

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Transcript

[intro music]

Em: [sighs] Let me crack my first drink of the year open. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: [cracks drink open offscreen] Did that– Did you hear that sound at all? Hang on. I have a backup. 

Christine: Sounded good. 

Em: Hang on. Hang on. 

Christine: Do it again. 

Em: [picks up a plastic to-go cup with a clear lid] Hang on. [whimpers while trying to open the lid] Hang on. Oh, this is gonna be good. This is gonna be good. [lifts cup lid open, making the plastic crinkle slightly] Was– That wasn’t good either. Fine. 

Christine: It feels like every ghost hunt where you and I get the perfect thing, but then we’re talking over it the whole time. “Hold on. Let me try again.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Oh, this can’t be it.” And it’s like, why do we continue? 

Em: Well– 

Christine: Yeah, we are terrible at foley, okay? But that’s okay. I– It sounded great, Em. 

Em: Thanks. I– In the spirit– Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. What is your drink? ’Cause I thought you were cracking open a cold one over there, like a can. But then I realized it’s a, it’s a, it’s a pl– it’s a cup, like a plastic cup.az 

Em: It’s one of those stupid lids where, you know, you, you can bend it backwards– 

Christine: Oh, that like– 

Em: –and that it technically covers it, but once you’ve opened it, it never covers it again. 

Christine: The flimsy plastic, yeah. 

Em: Um, I just got my– I just got a little black tea situation, but, um, I f– I just know by looking at it that they forgot to put the flavor in, but that’s okay. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: Um, anyway, that’s what I’m drinking. And I apparentl– I have two ’cause you know I gotta gulp one, I gotta sip one. 

Christine: Yeah. And you hate yourself. Now you have two drinks you don’t want, so perfect. [laughs] 

Em: I, I have the flavoring, so I’ll just, I’ll just add her in later. 

Christine: Oh, you do. I forgot. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: Well, you can go do that if you want. I’m drinking my, um, refrigerated iced coffee out of a bottle, so. 

Em: Interesting. Do you put it in one bottle to put it in another bottle? 

Christine: Well, it’s like in a big bottle, you know– 

Em: Oh, oh, oh. 

Christine: –and then you pour it into a glass. Yeah. But that would be wild if I were just like, “Aesthetically, this cup isn’t for me,” you know. That– 

Em: Some people do that. I’ve seen people put just like– 

Christine: I know. I know. 

Em: –water bottle water into like a, like a Stanley. 

Christine: I know. I’ve seen on TikTok, and I’m like, “What’s happening?” Um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: But yeah, no, I am just too lazy to do anything but buy it from the grocery store, so here we are. 

Em: Here we are. Well, it, uh, was recently New Year’s as– This week, it was New Year’s. Uh– 

Christine: Jesus. [chuckles] 

Em: When, when people hear this, it’ll– I don’t– I don’t know anymore. But for us, it’s recently New Year’s. Do you have any resolutions? 

Christine: [laughs] Oh, Jesus. Um, survive is a good one. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: Uh, actually my resolution for this year is, um– I wrote it down. 

Em: Ooh. 

Christine: I have that app Insight Timer, and it’s really nice ’cause every day they– you can set an intention for the day, and it like– When you– And it’s like a little widget, so when you open your phone, you like kind of glance at it, and it feels like, oh, you’re like reminding yourself. So usually I put like, you know, “trust myself” or like “be still” or– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –whatever, “be mindful.” Um, and the one I did, uh– Sometimes I get a little wacko, but the one– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –I did for next year is “in 2026, I will embrace change.” So I’m trying to just be less resistant to, um, to change because I’ve learned in 2025 that, um, that people– that the world likes to pull the rug out from [chuckles] underneath us a lot of times. I mean– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –not that I learned that this year, last year. I knew that, but, you know, I really, really learned it this past year. [laughs] 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: And so I was like, “You know what? I’m just gonna go with the flow and try my best to [sighs] embrace everything, uh, from everything I can’t control,” you know? 

Em: Nice. Did– 

Christine: You know what I mean? 

Em: Did you actually stay up for New Year’s this year? Or um– 

Christine: Bu– uh, accidentally. 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: I went to a friend’s house for board game night with my brother. Um, and I was like, “I need to get home before midnight. I’m like so tired.” Blaise has been sick for 40 years, and I’ve been watching Leona non-stop, and she– Today, as we record this, is the first day she’s in school in almost a month. Um, not really. It– like three weeks. And again, it feels like 40 years. But I went– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –to that game night, [chuckles] and then I– my brother dropped me off at home afterward, and we looked at the clock, and I was like, “Oh, it’s 11:59.” [laughs] Like we just weren’t paying attention, and, uh– 

Em: That’s cool. 

Christine: –we were like, “Okay, happy new year. Good night.” And I went inside. Um, and then I took a picture with Gio, and, um– He was waiting for me, so we took a little midnight kiss– we took a little midnight kiss selfie. Um– 

Em: Precious. 

Christine: Yeah. So but did you– What did you– Did you party? Do you have a resolution? Are you jazzed? Or are you just kind of like downtrodden like the rest of [laughs] us? 

Em: I have– I’ve learned not to say anything about what I think brings– 

Christine: I know. We learned that the hard way. 

Em: Um, no. I, I was invited to a party, and I ended up not going, uh, because when I was with Allison’s family, everyone got the stomach flu. So– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –um– 

Christine: Everybody is sick this year– or this past month. It’s really bananas. 

Em: I think it was norovirus. I don’t like know for sure, but it felt like v– norovirus. Um– 

Christine: Did you, did you get it or no? 

Em: Oh, yeah. [chuckles] 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Yeah, I got it really bad. Um– 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: But so I was in the clear, and I felt fine on New Year’s, but I didn’t know if I was contagious or not, so I just stayed home. Um, but that means that Hankies was my midnight kiss. So– 

Christine: Aww. Oh my god, we both had our doggies [laughs]. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: ’Cause Blaise was sick, and so he couldn’t go anywhere. Aww. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: That's sweet. 

Em: Um, but so yeah, that was nice. And it was– 

Christine: That feels like the exact turning point of 202– We’re just like, “Okay, we’re just with our dogs now.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: You know? 

Em: Just hol– 

Christine: Just alone with [laughs] our dog. 

Em: As long as we got the dog, we’re good. 

Christine: Ah. [sighs] 

Em: Uh, yeah. No, so that was, that was my New Year’s, and then, um, that– I mean, it was probably the most boring New Year’s I’ve ever had– 

Christine: Same. 

Em: –but it was fine. 

Christine: I guess it wasn’t the most boring. There was a year after Leona was born that I was like– We– Blaise and I were in bed watching like Severance or something. [chuckles] We were like– We fell asleep at like 10:30. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: So that was probably the most boring. This one was not quite as boring, but it was a– very lowkey, you know. 

Em: Nice, nice. Well– 

Christine: But also then I keep thinking, “Well, you know, they say like the, the year of the snake and the horse,” but like Chinese New Year isn’t until February. So it’s like we still got a month to go, baby– 

Em: [chuckles before fake crying] 

Christine: –’til like the actual like, you know, lunar– you know, ’til we’re actually in the new year– I know. I know. And so, um, I’m still– I feel like I’m still buckled in, just in case. 

Em: Okay. Well, good. 

Christine: Yeah, the airbag is still ready to be deployed just in case. 

Em: I, I think being an American in what was 2025, uh, I’ll, I’ll never know how to take the buckle off at this point. Just– [laughs] 

Christine: Oh my god. I know. 

Em: I think embrace change is a very good resolution if, if you’re trying to just hold on fucking tight ’cause it’s– 

Christine: That’s kind of what it is. 

Em: –just get ready for an adjustment. 

Christine: It’s like I have to ride this out otherwise I’m just gonna crash, you know? Like I gotta just accept it ’cause I– I’ve realized I can’t force it to be the way I want. [laughs] 

Em: Oh my gosh. Well, other than that, uh, I, I don’t know. I feel like I’ve– I have nothing to up– 

Christine: Do you have a, do you have a reason to drink besides your boring new year? 

Em: No– 

Christine: Our boring new year? 

Em: No, I– Well, I mean, I, I could certainly conjure one up. Um, but I– 

Christine: I mean, norovirus sounds like a good one already, but it sounds like you might have other options. 

Em: It kicked my ass, and I got it on, um–on my flight home. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And so I ended up staying in my layover for like three days [chuckles] just to, just to throw up nonstop. 

Christine: Can I ask what city you defiled in that time period? 

Em: Well, it was Florida. 

Christine: [laughs] Nevermind. They were fine. 

Em: “Flurida.” Um– 

Christine: “Flurida.” Always with “Flurida.” Jesus. 

Em: No, I was in– I had a layover in Miami, and I was like, “I’m not getting on the next plane. There’s just no way.” 

Christine: Party! Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So I just turned around and went to a hotel and then didn’t resurface for a while. 

Christine: [groans sympathetically] 

Em: Um, but it was, uh, bad. Anyway, [laughs]– 

Christine: It’s– 

Em: –that’s all there is to say about it. 

Christine: It’s like we just can’t stop getting our asses kicked this– like always, you know. 

Em: I’m impressed with you. You haven’t gotten sick. 

Christine: Uh, knock on wood. [Christine knocks lightly on her forehead.] Um, yeah, it’s been a doozy of a mo– I don’t think we would have survived because my mom was at– It’s been– Listen, I– If we’re asking why I drink, which I feel that maybe that’s a loaded question– 

Em: It– It was my next question. So– 

Christine: Oh, thank you. Okay. So I didn’t want to put you on the spot and force you to ask me ’cause it’s quite– 

Em: [laughs] Never done it before. 

Christine: I got a– No, you– I know it’s– you’re new to this. Um, oh, I, I’m not– I probably won’t get into it. I– It’s been a traumatic couple weeks, like very traumatic. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And then Blaise got very sick. And then, um, he was like– In the middle of the night, he called me at 4 a.m., and he was like, “I think I need to c– I think you need to call an ambulance.” And I was like– 

Em: Oh, shit. 

Christine: Blaise worked at an ER for years in downtown LA. He does not say things lightly, you know, especially when it comes to medical stuff. Um, he was having like– He was like, “I’m gonna die– I think I’m gonna die.” Like he’s like, “My reptilian brain is like screaming, ‘I’m gonna die.’” And he had this flu, this super flu or whatever, for almost– It was over three weeks, and, um, we didn’t see him for like weeks. And um– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: –I was home with Leona alone because my mom and Tim went to Germany for three weeks. And so I was just kind of here with Leona, and, um, I’ll get into it another day, but– 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: –let’s just say I was going through it medically as well and had some traumatic events occur during this time, had to have surgery, and then uh, Blaise was still like completely in-incapacitated, um, for weeks. And then he started going like kind of mentally crazy because he’s been up here for three weeks with like no access to the outside world. He slept– Like Christmas, everything. I was like solo Santa for– and I had to build a bunch of furniture and a trampoline. It’s just like– [laughs] 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: It’s been like one of those like months where last night I started like just shaking, and I was like, “Blaise, I don’t know what’s happening.” And then I realized like, “Oh, I was having like that trauma release,” like after– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –adren-adrenaline crash. And I was like, “Oh, ’cause Blaise is finally like here. School starts today.” 

Em: Yeah. Oh my god. 

Christine: I can take a shower finally. Anyway, it’s just been a doozy. And I don’t want to, you know, harp on it too much, and I don’t want to bum anyone out, but, um, yeah, it’s been, it’s b– Oh, and then I posted online about how it’s been a really tough season. And then Blaise texted me like half-dead, and he’s like, [in a hoarse voice] “It looks like we’re getting divorced–“ 

Em: Oh. [laughs] 

Christine: “–in your post.” [laughs] And I went, “No, it do– Oh, shit.” And I looked at it, and I– My brother was over, and I was like, “Does it look like we’re getting divorced?” And my brother goes, “Oh, yeah, it kind of does.” And I was like, [laughs] “Oh no.” So then I had to be like, “Hey, no. It’s other stuff. It’s not– We’re not getting divorced, I swear.” Um– 

Em: We’re just both absolutely suffering. Yeah. 

Christine: We’re just at [laughs] the worst possible– We’re both like in and out of hospitals, and this four-year-old is just like running our lives, which is, you know, wonderful in some instances, not so much when you’re at your physical and– 

Em: Wits’ end. 

Christine: –wits’ end. Exactly. So anyway– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: –it’s been a very, um, traumatic month. So I’m trying to– I’m trying to just like– 

Em: Embrace change? 

Christine: –embrace change. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: You know, just go with the flow. So I got my iced coffee. I’m just like, “Fuck it. Let’s do it.” 

Em: Well, I won’t even try to go after that ’cause I ha– I– Yeah, I don’t know. Uh, I feel for you. That’s rough. 

Christine: Listen, the only thing that could have been worse is if I were stuck in Miami, so. 

Em: The only thing that could have been worse is if you also got whatever Blaise got. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: That would have been– 

Christine: Well, that’s true. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Then I would have probably been in really big trouble. [chuckles] 

Em: No, my, um– I mean, my stomach thing was just– It– For me, it was like rough because I like– I am such a baby when it comes to stomach stuff as I’ve mentioned before. So that– It was not a good few days. I also did not feel like I was, uh, m-mentally here. I think I just detached. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: But it’s nothing compared to everything you just said. I, I was just throwing up, and it, it went away, so um– 

Christine: Hey, listen. Some weeks I’m throwing up. Some weeks you’re throwing up. It’s– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: L– It’s– Life is a fucking roller coaster, you know. Our, our traumas can’t be, uh, parallel, you know, all the time, so. 

Em: I will say– I’ve told you my throw up trick, right? For when I’m throwing up. 

Christine: No. Have you? 

Em: I don’t know. Well, in case I– My thing that I try to do if I’m ever gonna throw up is– It’s so stupid. And– 

Christine: Tell me. I need to know. 

Em: –anybody nearby– 

Christine: I need to know. [chuckles] I need to know right now. 

Em: To anybody nearby, it sounds so much worse. But, um, I scream when I’m throwing up. 

Christine: Oh, that’s right. I do know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Because it like closes your nasal passages, so no throwup comes out of your nose. And I’m a big nose throw-uper. Um– 

Christine: Egh! 

Em: I know. And s– 

Christine: That hurts. That hurts. 

Em: –so if you scream, it like blocks your nose from– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: So I was just screaming my lungs out in this hotel. Like people must have thought I was dying. I don’t know. I don’t know. 

Christine: I can’t believe they didn’t call 911. 

Em: And it– But here’s the thing though. That has always worked. And whatever was going on with this situation, the screaming did not help. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: It was a bad, it was a bad one. 

Christine: Don’t fail me now, scream trick. 

Em: That was the scariest part of it all when all of a sudden, [chuckles] my tactic wasn’t working, and then I was like, “No, I’m just a victim.” 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: Anyway, so that’s, that’s why I drink because, for once, um, I couldn’t trust my own, my own technique. [sighs] Um– 

Christine: Whew. 

Em: It’s okay. Lesson learned. First lesson of the year. Um– 

Christine: Well, you seem– Are you better now? You seem better. You seem more lively. 

Em: Yeah, I’m fine now. 

Christine: Okay, good. Good. 

Em: I’m fine now. Um, but I was lucky. Some people in the family like were hospitalized for it. It was a bad– 

Christine: Oof-uh. 

Em: –bad situation. Um, anyway, that was the first time I’d seen Allison in a, in a little bit– 

Christine: Aw. [chuckles] 

Em: –and was just throwing up, um–[chuckles] 

Christine: And screaming. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Uh, no, she surprised me. Uh, she came to LA, uh, like a week before, um, which was nice. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: Although, she ruined the whole surprise of me doing the whole house. Um– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: But– 

Christine: Yeah, you can’t surprise each other. That’s just never gonna work ’cause– 

Em: No. 

Christine: –you’ve always got a surprise in store, you know. 

Em: I told her– I was like, “It’s been almost a decade, Allison. You have to assume that if you’re gone for a long period of time, I’m up to something.” 

Christine: Yeah, you can’t just arrive. 

Em: Like, “You have to fucking warn me.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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Em’s Story – Mary E. Hart aka “Midnight Mary” and Mary E. Hart 

Em: I have a story for you. 

Christine: Yay. 

Em: And I actually have two stories for you, um, because– 

Christine: Yay. [chuckles] 

Em: [chuckles] Well, I got confused in my research, and I was like– 

Christine: That doesn’t sound like you. 

Em: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: And I was like, “This lady sounds like she’s lived a lot of lives.” Um, and then I found out that they’re, they’re two different women. Um– 

Christine: [chuckles] Oh-ho-ho. 

Em: So– 

Christine: I don’t know because after that Jane Addams episode and– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I realized afterward when I read the comments like, “Oh, I definitely learned about this woman ’cause I took sociology,” and um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –some, um– What did she– She was like the found– founder of basically um– 

Em: Like social work, basically. 

Christine: Social work, yes. And so during like some of my courses, we’d kind of touch on social work. And I feel like I learned about her then. But yeah, she lived some fucking lives, so you never know, but– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Okay, so this is two people. 

Em: This is two people, but they both– Tell me you wouldn’t also be confused because I typed in– After I knew the name, I would type in like “ghost story” and then her name, and everyth– Both of these people came up. I typed in “ghost story Mary E. Hart.” 

Christine: Ha– 

Em: And there’s two of them. 

Christine: Okay. Oh. 

Em: There’s two Mary E. Harts that have paranormal newsworthy stories. 

Christine: Is Hart A– H-A-R– spelled the same? Both of them? 

Em: H-A-R-T. Both of them. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: And Mary is– M-A-R-Y E. H-A-R-T. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: I was, I was like, “Well, I have every right to be confused.” Um, so you have– This is the story of Mary E. Hart and the story of Mary E. Hart. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. 

Em: Okay. Although one of them is known as “Midnight Mary.” 

Christine: Oh, and one of them’s not. 

Em: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: “Noon-time Mary.” 

Em: [laughs] So uh, the first Mary E. Hart we’re gonna talk about th– All the information I got was from one article called “American Ghost Walks.” 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, it was a very good article, but it was also what confused the hell out of me during my research ’cause I was like, “I did not find this anywhere else.” 

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: And it was a totally different person. So this is, uh, in the early 1900s in Nome, Alaska. 

Christine: Oh, okay. I don’t think we’ve ever– Have we ever done a story out of Nome, Alaska? That’s so specific. 

Em: I don’t think so. Alaska’s a rare one. 

Christine: Yeah, except for– 

Em: I remember I did the Red Onion Saloon. 

Christine: The Red Onion Saloon, I remember. And I think somebody mailed a t-shirt that I still have from there. And then also, um, Israel Keyes. [chuckles] So. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Good track record for Alaska, you know. 

Em: Mm. Oh, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Uh, they– It’s rare but heavy every time. 

Christine: Yeah, apparently. 

Em: Well, so in Nome, Alaska, in the early 1900s, Mary E. Hart, she was– Actually, it’s very funny that you mentioned Jane Addams. She was also very Jane Addams-coded. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: She was huge in the community. She was big in local politics. She was a suffragist. She was, um, a founder of many women’s clubs. She was a journalist. She was a gold miner. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Um, literally, I mean, they could be buddies. Um– 

Christine: I love this. 

Em: She also was the commissioner for any Alaskan exhibits at like world fairs and expos. 

Christine: Oh, so she’s just like the foremost expert. Like the– She’s like when you have an expert witness at a trial, and you’re like, “Just call her in. Just call in Mary.” 

Em: She’s essentially Miss Alaska. Yeah. 

Christine: Love her. 

Em: So since she was a journalist, um– That’s the thing you have to know the most about her. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: She was, you know, bopping around being a reporter, blah blah blah. But one day, Mary decides to leave Nome and never return because she was being haunted by a ghost named Fred. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Apparently, for years, she was being haunted by a ghost. 

Christine: I never knew this would– I would not have expected where this was going. I thought she would become the ghost, you know. 

Em: Yeah, you would– Of course. I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: That makes total sense. So– Okay. In 1902, Mary was a reporter, uh, at Alaska’s very first execution by hanging. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And this was also– 

Christine: They’re like, “Oh, yeah, lady. You want to be a reporter?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Step on up and watch this hanging.” She’s like, “Don’t mind if I do.” 

Em: Yeah, exact– 

Christine: “You can’t scare me.” 

Em: [laughs] [in 1920’s New York newsies accent] “Oi, mister [pronounced “mis-tah”]. I’ve never been better ready–“ 

Christine: “Oi, mister.” 

Em: “–for, for an editorial.” Or I don’t know. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: What, what do they call it? A news flash. News flash. 

Christine: “News flash. Read all about it.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] So okay. She’s– It’s the– Alaska’s first execution by hanging, and it is the first – there’s a quote – “the first under legal judicial authority.” 

Christine: The first under legal– 

Em: Does that mean like the first– 

Christine: Oh, okay. So she was– 

Em: –legal execution? 

Christine: Like she was allowed– I think– Was it– I mean, she– Oh. 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: Oh, so the first like official hanging by like judicial proceedings rather than like just a lynch mob or something. 

Em: Just people taking it– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –into their own hands. 

Christine: Oh, I see. 

Em: Uh, yeah, the first “offic” [pronounced “uh-fish”]. Um, so before his execution – this guy named Fred – he was known as Fred Watkyns, but he was also known by Fred Hardy. Just fun fact, he had two last names. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: But before his execution, he was with Mary, uh, because I guess she was interviewing him, and she asked– or he started asking her about death and what she thinks is gonna happen to him, does she think he’s gonna come back as a spirit. And this is apparently a quote from Fred. He said, “Do you think the dead can make themselves manifest to the living?” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “I do. And I shall return to you and tell you about death and tell you about the beyond, if I’m welcome.” 

Christine: Why? Just because she’s interviewing him? 

Em: Yeah, I gu– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Like, well, maybe it’s the last person he’s ever gonna talk to, so maybe he’s desperate. 

Christine: I guess, yeah. 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So not knowing what to say, because Mary’s just been asked to be haunted– 

Christine: Awkward. 

Em: –she said, “Sure, Fred. Whatever you want.” Um, but she apparently had an immediate bad feeling about saying that. She– 

Christine: [sucks in breath through teeth] Yeah, that sucks. She just got like cornered into agreeing to that, I feel. 

Em: Yeah. And if ghosts are real, you’re talking to someone who’s about to be a ghost in like 20 minutes. Like that’s– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: It’s an immediate invitation it feels like. Like by nightfall, he’ll be at your house, you know. 

Christine: He’s like, “I know I’m in handcuffs now, but by tonight I’ll be in your bedroom.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And it’s like, “Well, hello. That feels like bad vibes on every front.” 

Em: [laughs] Exac– Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: No, thank you. So she immediately regretted it. And once he died, she was still the reporter of the day. She had to take photos of him in his coffin– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –to, I guess, prove that he had passed. And although she was alone in the room, there is a picture of Fred in his coffin and an older man, quote, “standing next to Fred’s coffin–“ 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “–and fading through the wall.” 

Christine: Ew. He’s like, “I’m here.” 

Em: Yeah. So part of me is like, “Is it Fred? Was it like somebody else coming to like greet him? Was it like his grim reaper of sorts?” 

Christine: Oh, his psychopomp. 

Em: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because um– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –Fred was only 26, so for him to be described as “an older man”– 

Christine: Oh. So yeah, you’re right. Maybe it was like his like escort to the underworld. 

Em: Yeah. A- And to be fair, in 1902, maybe at 26, you are an older man. 

Christine: I guess so if you– Well, like maybe he was wearing his like normal clothes, you know, like a hat and a– Maybe he looked– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –older when he’s not a prisoner. I don’t know. 

Em: A little mature. 

Christine: Yeah, a little more mature. Yes, maybe. 

Em: Well, there is an article, um, titled “Occult Futures of the Execution of Fred Watkyns in Alaska,” and in there, they actually printed the picture that Mary took. So I’m sending that to you right now. 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: And here is him in a coffin– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and to the left is a man– 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: –fading through the wall. 

Christine: Okay. First of all, the guy in the coffin, I mean, he’s giving Nosferatu with those hands. Okay? 

Em: [laughs] He looks very Dracula. 

Christine: Like what is happening? And the fact that they like prop the coffin up for pictures is, of course, the most Victorian thing I’ve ever heard. 

Em: Thing you could do. Uh-huh. 

Christine: Yeah. Uh, oh my god. But there is like this old dude just like, “Oh, can I walk out of this door now? Like I’m just gonna turn around and–“ 

Em: “Let me scoot on past you.” 

Christine: “–scoot on– Oh, oops. Just scooch on past.” And he looks almost like he’s got a bald spot on top of his head. 

Em: Yeah. Yeah, he does. 

Christine: So maybe– 

Em: It looks like there’s a combover situation. 

Christine: Yeah, maybe– 

Em: So maybe he is older. 

Christine: Maybe. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Weird. 

Em: Anyway, so that was the picture that she got. 

Christine: It’s creepy. I love that it’s in the newspaper though. That’s exciting. 

Em: I love. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And I don’t know if it’s because she could pull her strings as the reporter or if it was because she was so sensible and everyone knew her in town that they were like, “If she believes it, it’s got to be real.” 

Christine: Or they were just like, “Oh, a ghost. Throw it on the front page.” 

Em: [laughs] “Oi, mister. Hear ye, hear ye.” 

Christine: “Don’t give, don’t give that woman credit. Just put it on the front page. Oi, mister.” [laughs] 

Em: So the, um, next few nights after this, Mary had dark dreams of Fred and this mystery man, and, um, eventually, these dreams turned into reality when a few nights later Fred’s spirit appeared before her. 

Christine: No. 

Em: Which so– I guess, you know what, he said he was gonna try to haunt her, and he’s doing it pretty successfully which makes me question every other person that has said that they would come to haunt and, and haven’t. I’m like, “Well, Fred could do it.” You know? 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: “Show up, man.” 

Christine: Uh, Fred could do it in like 48 hours. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So. 

Em: Like without– What? Like it’s hard? So– 

Christine: “What? Like it’s hard?” [laughs] 

Em: –when he appeared, Mary swore that she kind of went into this like catatonic state and felt his experience of him being executed. 

Christine: [gasps] Hey, that’s not fair. You didn’t agree to that. She didn’t agree to that. 

Em: I guess it was a vague agreement. She was just like, “I– Sure, whatever that means.” And then– 

Christine: Ooh. That’s dark. 

Em: Including like all the way down to feeling a rope tightening around her neck. She said that she like felt– 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: –the full event. Um, and as she was literally in the middle of about– she was about to faint from losing oxygen, her coworker – named Sunshine, of all things– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –uh, found her, while she was having this moment where she like couldn’t breathe and she was freaking out. I think she was actually like frozen in place– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and that was the weird part for Sunshine. She was like, “Girl, what is going on?” –went over to touch her shoulder, and two things happened. So then Ma-Mary by being touched on the shoulder was kind of woken up from this trance– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –that she was in, but that touch seemed to transfer the experience over to Sunshine. 

Christine: Oh! Ooh. 

Em: And so now Sunshine is freaking out, and apparently, she shouted the words “Hardy’s here,” and that– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –was one of Frank’s last names. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, and then she started speaking in this voice that sounded like Fred’s voice, according to Mary, and she started describing the events of being executed. 

Christine: Oh my word. Okay. 

Em: So luckily, Sunshine got off a– like scot-free after that and never had to deal with this guy again, hopefully. But Fred continued to bother Mary aft-after this happened. So um, he was doing it for so long and so intensely, by the way, that Mary decided that she was just gonna take a ship and get out of town. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Which I like you have to take a ship. 

Christine: Can take a ship. [laughs] 

Em: Um, while she was on the ship, she actually met a clairvoyant who told Mary, “I see a man following you around” and then described Fred. 

Christine: “Oh no, he came on the boat with me.” 

Em: Yeah, [in a sing-song voice] he’s here. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: Luckily, I guess it was more that Fred was like on the dock watching her because– 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: –as the boat m– went away from the dock, it seemed that Fred faded away from being able to harm her. 

Christine: Oh, so maybe he was like trapped to that area ’cause– 

Em: Literally landlocked. 

Christine: Good for him. I mean, good for her. Get out of there. 

Em: Good for her. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Well, because this was the first time she felt free a– through all this, she decided she was just not coming back to Nome because she didn’t want to show up and he’s still there. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So she never went back to that area. 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: However, because she was the last person that was kind to Fred before he died, he made arrangements before he died to leave all of his belongings to Mary– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –which like talk about a random act of kindness. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Kindness is a stretch maybe. Maybe more just like– 

Em: Not assholey? 

Christine: I guess. It feels like you’re just burdening. Like what kind of belongings did he really have? 

Em: He had $500 in possessions, which was– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –the equivalent of $18,000. 

Christine: Shit, okay. 

Em: Plus additional money in a bank account and about 2,000 acres of land. 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: So Mary’s pretty made in the shade. Um– 

Christine: I guess so. 

Em: And I guess the acreage was in California ’cause that’s where she ends up. And years later, Mary is– which you would think if, you would think if you inherited his land and you’re trying to escape him– 

Christine: Yeah, that he– 

Em: –going to his land wouldn’t work. 

Christine: It feels like a trap, right? Like that’s why I said like, “Yeah, I don’t know about nice ’cause it feels like this is a trap.” like he’s gonna like corner her by giving her all this money and being like, “Well, now I can haunt you forever.” But it– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: But so he didn’t show up at the land that was– 

Em: He didn’t show up. 

Christine: He didn’t think to do that. Mm. 

Em: No, [chuckles] I don’t, I don’t know what he was thinking. I’ll tell you that. 

Christine: I don’t know what he was thinking. 

Em: I haven’t gotten a chance to talk to him yet, but um– 

Christine: [chuckles] That’s probably for the best. 

Em: Well, years later, Mary was working at another expo world fair or something like that and– This is just an added fun fact about her story is that in her office, her personal office, she had chairs from this place called Baranof’s Hill, which was a haunted area that was known to have its own ghost called the Lady in Blue, or as– 

Christine: Oh, wow. That’s a twist. [chuckles] 

Em: Finally, a different color. Um, however, just like every other colorful lady we’ve ever described, she was jilted, died of heartbreak– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and is now seen and heard crying throughout the building. 

Christine: Classic. 

Em: Well, eventually, Baranof’s Hill burned down, and the only two items that could be salvaged from the fire were the chairs that are now in Mary’s office. 

Christine: Ooh! Creepy. 

Em: So a lot of people think that maybe, um, Mary escaped Fred but still has the Lady in Blue attached to her belongings. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, that’s just, that’s just a fun fact of it all is that she ended up actually being in the papers twice for two different ghosts. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Man, she like– in different– in completely different areas. 

Em: Yeah, and in different ways. And in 1929, she ended up passing away in California, but she had made headlines, especially for being like a, quote, “sensible woman”– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –who was in local politics and all this, but just the ghosts kept following her– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –or that was her lore at least. So that is Mary E. Hart number one. 

Christine: [chuckles] Okay, okay, okay. 

Em: Y– 

Christine: Yeah, this is confusing already ’cause now I’m thinking, “Another one?” And you’ve already moved from Alaska to California. Yeah, okay. 

Em: [laughs] So um, that was Mary E. Hart, E. Hart number one. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And you will see why I was confused at first when I thought these were the same people. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: So the other Mary Hart, aka Midnight Mary. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: She is in New Haven, Connecticut. 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: And she is buried currently in Evergreen Cemetery. And her grave is, is what’s haunted here. So Mary Hart, she died in 1872, and her gravestone si– It– I feel like they didn’t come up with really anything clever. They just kind of described what happened to her– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –as her grave, as her little epitaph. It says, “At high noon / just from, and about to renew / her daily work in her full strength of body and mind / Mary E. Hart / having fallen prostrate / rema-remained unconscious until she died at midnight / October 15 1872 / born December 16 1824.” 

Christine: Wow, what a catchy epitaph. 

Em: Yeah, we could have shortened that for sure. 

Christine: Yeah, like why do we need to say– like put her business out there like that? 

Em: Why did she fall prostrate and remain unconscious? I don’t need to know all that. 

Christine: Like now we’ve got questions. Now it’s like– what? Give her some privacy. 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. So all you need to know is fr– my, my CliffNotes of that is: at 48, she collapsed at noon, was pronounced dead at midnight, and is now buried at Evergreen. 

Christine: Right. Okay. 

Em: Um, but after her funeral, her aunt had this horrible, horrible nightmare– 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: –that Mary in her coffin was alive and begging for help. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Sounding like you, she convinced the family to exhume the body. 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: And when they opened the coffin, it’s said that they found scratches on the coffin lid as well as, quote, “bloody–“ Nope– “Mary’s bloody nails broken–“ 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “–and a petrified look on her face.” 

Christine: Hey, that’s my nightmare. 

Em: It’s thought that when she collapsed at noon and for those 12 hours before she was pronounced dead, maybe she had a stroke, and she just looked asleep and wasn’t moving ’cause she was paralyzed, and the family just assumed she was dead. 

Christine: That shit happened back then. And like– 

Em: [muffled as Em covers their nose and mouth with their T-shirt collar] I know. 

Christine: I wonder– Because it’s like, well, you wake up from that nightmare, and what do you do? Because it’s like, first of all, it’s too late now. Right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I assume. Like, “Oh, we got to dig up the grave.” It’s like, “Well, by now she’s probably dead,” but like do you want to find out? Do you have to find out otherwise she’s gonna keep coming to your dreams and saying like, “I need people to know”? I don’t know. It’s just like– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –what do you even do to be the bearer of this news as the aunt? Like, uh– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –“Dig, dig her up.” Oh god. 

Em: I mean– And she must have sounded panic-stricken– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –to convince other people to dig her, dig her up. 

Christine: I mean, I– If I were her, I like I wouldn’t even want to know. I’d be like, “Don’t tell me.” Like, [laughs] you, you– 

Em: I know. I get it. 

Christine: [groans] 

Em: I get it. I’d be– And I wouldn’t tell anyone about that dream. I’d be like, “I’m, I’m just gonna– I mean, she’s dead now. She’s, she’s certainly–“ By the time that the dream happened, she was probably not in a better pla– I don’t know. I don’t know what I would do actually. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I– Now I’m panicking. Hey, I’ve officially spiraled. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, I don’t like this. 

Em: You just saw it in real time. You just saw it in real– 

Christine: That’s why that’s– I feel like that’s why the aunt was picked. There– She was like, “Who’s gonna be the most like–“ 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: “Yeah, like thinking-straight person in my family? It’s not Mom or Dad. It’s not–“ Yeah. I– It’s not Christine and Em. [chuckles] 

Em: It must have been horrifi– I mean, I– ’Cause I– I’m– If s– Oh my god. Yeah. I’m, I’m imagining that that dream could happen if I lost anybody– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and now I’m panicking about anybody. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Now am I gonna be that person at every single funeral where I’m like, “Are you sure? Are you sure? Are you?” 

Christine: “Have you checked? Have you checked?” 

Em: Yeah.” [chuckles] 

Christine: [chuckles] “Let me just like feel for a pulse.” Oh, it’s so scary. 

Em: So luckily, uh, there is no actual record that this story is true. 

Christine: Okay. Well, that’s nice. That’s comforting. 

Em: The only reason– or the inspiration for this story was that that those– that word that verbiage is on her epitaph that she collapsed and then she was pronounced dead at midnight– And so people just think like, “Oh, what could ha–“ I, I don’t know. It inspired the story. 

Christine: Okay, okay. And it’s a college town, like Yale’s there. I feel like that’s like prime location for kind of like a [in a spooky dramatic voice] spooky story in the cemetery. 

Em: Yeah. Don’t they have like Skull and Bones is one of their like secret societies. Like I’m sure they– 

Christine: Yeah, like they have all the– They were there– It’s, it’s where the, uh, bodies were being sna– That’s like where– The medical school is like where the bodies were being stolen for, uh– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –from graves and stuff. 

Em: So, um, we have to hope that Mary E. Hart’s story is just, um, a made-up one. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: But because of this urban legend, Mary is now still said to wander the cemetery at night. And, angry about her fate that she was buried alive, she will now curse you if you taunt, if you taunt her. 

Christine: Oh, well, yeah. I mean, let’s not test that theory. 

Em: Yeah. And I don’t blame her either. Um, and in fact, the local belief now is that if you go into the cemetery at midnight, if you mess with her grave at all, you will soon die. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And the stories kind of vary on how the deaths play out. Like there’s one that says, um– Well, there’s one that says like three teenagers went out there and messed with her grave, and then eventually, one by one, they all died from having their throat ripped out. 

Christine: Oh! Wha– What? 

Em: Like crazy shit. Crazy shit. Um, there’s another one that says, uh, some men came into the cemetery at midnight to see if Mary would appear, and then they all heard a t– a noise. They all got freaked out, and when they tried to climb over the gate, they all slipped in the same way and were impaled by the iron spikes. 

Christine: Oh Jesus Christ. [chuckles in shock] It’s like Final Destination shit. 

Em: Like at some point, there’s got to be warnings everywhere like, “Do not– Just stop coming at midnight.” 

Christine: Just don’t even come in here. 

Em: Yeah. Um, there’s another story where, uh, two guys were gonna go see Midnight Mary or see if she’d show up. One of them chickened out, so he didn’t go. But then he didn’t hear from his friend, so he ended up going to the cemetery to see if he was okay. And he was like frozen in fear, dead, in, in the bush. 

Christine: [gasps] Oh no. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Not in the bush. 

Em: Not in the bush. Uh, there’s another one that says– Oh, this is from the general manager there. And he said that he came out one night because a security alarm was triggered. And when he got to the cemetery, he recalled it feeling like eerily dark and empty and that nobody and nothing was there but him. 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: Which is especially weird because security was supposed to be there, by the way. Um, as a general manager, I’d be like, “Where the fuck were you?” Um– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: But he got freaked out by how creepy it felt, and he tried to leave, and even though his car was turned on, it would not move. It– 

Christine: Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. 

Em: He said– He was quoted saying it was “like his car was “being held back.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And when he checked his car’s clock, it said that it was one minute to midnight. And he then said, “The clock on my radio said 11:59. I heard a sound. I said, ‘Let’s get the hell out of here.’ A branch fell near my car. I hit the gas. My wheels were spinning on the ice. And I got out of the gate exactly at midnight.” So– 

Christine: Whaa… 

Em: Just eerie. Just eerie. Um, and then by the way, a different article told me that, uh, – this is a quote from that article – when the general manager, “when he came into work the next day, there was never a record of an alarm going off at any of the buildings.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Even though he had gotten a call from someone saying, “You need to come out. There was a security breach.” 

Christine: Oh dear. 

Em: Yuck. 

Christine: Oh dear. 

Em: Um, another story. Well, I don’t know if it’s really a story, but I guess it’s local lore that if you live near the cemetery, weird things happen like on your street and like the neighbors always witness stuff and they’re looking out the window to the cemetery. 

Christine: Ooh, that’s kind of fun, like neighborhood lore. Okay. 

Em: I feel like you could relate to that though. Like you just look out into the cemetery, and there’s not weird stuff? 

Christine: Yeah, but like I didn’t really know my neighbors at all. So it’s like I wish I had had a somebody who lived nearby that I could like ask, you know. But, um, d– Yeah. 

Em: It would be cool if like your local neighbors app is literally just like people talking about the ghost they saw. [laughs] 

Christine: I know. I should check. I should get on Nextdoor and see– [chuckles] 

Em: Yes, yes. 

Christine: –see what people are chatting about. 

Em: If everyone’s Ring doorbells are all getting something fucking weird. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Well, so there was one woman who said, in, in the neighborhood, that she would walk around with her cousin, and she f– One night, she was out there. She felt like something really weird was out in the cemetery. Um, she says that she has seen– or people in her neighborhood have seen the woman walking by every now and then that they can’t recognize– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and they assume that that’s Midnight Mary. It’s probably just someone walking their fucking dog. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, but the one woman who’s gone in to the, the cemetery at night, she’s gone in with her cousin. And there was one night where she heard someone calling her name, and she assumed it was her cousin from a distance that she couldn’t see. And it ended up being a doppelgänger mis– mimicking her cousin– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –because when she turned around, her cousin was on the opposite side of the cemetery. 

Christine: Agh! Yuck. 

Em: So I do want to say the– one of the reasons that this urban legend even exists– Because the only information that I’ve mentioned so far that’s on her grave is that like, “Oh, she was– she fell and collapsed, and then she died at midnight, and therefore, she’s Midnight Mary.” But also on her grave– I don’t know why they chose to put this fucking quote, but on her grave, the o-only other thing it says in bold black letters is, “The people shall be troubled at midnight and pass away.” Yuck. 

Christine: What?! 

Em: So apparently that’s from like the Book of Job, but– 

Christine: Uh, uh, what a choice for your Bible quote. 

Em: For obvious reasons, people have decided that that is Mary warning us that if you– “if you’re troubled at midnight, or if you come to me at midnight, and you cause any problems, you will die.” um– 

Christine: But so she died at midnight, right? 

Em: She died at midnight. 

Christine: So maybe somebody’s just like put that on her grave being like, “Well, she died at midnight. She loved the Bi– She loved Job” or whatever book this was. 

Em: “She really loved the Bible and the word midnight, so let’s slam them together.” [chuckles] 

Christine: “And she died at midnight, so, you know, people–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: What does it say? “People drop dead at midnight,” or what is it? 

Em: “The people shall be troubled at midnight and pass away,” which is what happened to her. 

Christine: I mean– Which she did. Right, so I don’t know. 

Em: I guess that makes sense why they would have put that on there, but it certainly, in 2026, sounds, uh, very threatening. 

Christine: It’s extremely ominous. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So the last thing I’m gonn– I’m gonna say is that apparently– I could not find one online. I tried looking. But apparently, if you go to, uh, Evergreen Cemetery yourself, uh, they have a map, and on their map is Midnight Mary’s grave, and she’s like a ghostly landmark. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: ’Cause a lot of people are looking for her, and I guess they would rather show you exactly how to get there instead of you die in some weird fucking way at midnight, so. 

Christine: I suppose so. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Anyway, that is Mary E. Hart and Mary E. Hart. 

Christine: I can’t believe there were two of them. 

Em: [laughs] That feels like it should have been a really good like true crime plot twist that there were two. 

Christine: Yes, because I’ve done a story like that of two people, and I think their names were Mary. 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: Or maybe even three people. I can’t remember the exact story, but I remember it’s in the 200s I think, uh, or maybe 100s. Did– So when, when did Mary number two pass away? What year was that? 

Em: Mary– So Midnight Mary died in 1872, but then the one– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –that I talked about originally – I should have done them chronologically – she died in 1921. 

Christine: Okay, okay, so– 

Em: So they’re like 50 years apart, their deaths. 

Christine: Damn, that’s wild though. 

Em: Although maybe Midnight Mary, who died in 1872, maybe she was reincarnated and– Yeah. 

Christine: Has the same damn name. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Can you imagine not being able to escape that? 

Christine: They’re like, “This time, don’t die at midnight.” 

Em: “Don’t fuck it up.” Um– 

Christine: “Don’t fuck it up this time.” 

Em: Anyway, yeah. There you go. 

Christine: Wow, what a story– stories. Um, very good work. What do you want to do for our Yappy Hour while I go pee? And– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Do you want me to brainstorm? Do you have anything in mind– 

Em: Um– 

Christine: –as I look around my office again like I’m supposed to just pick something? 

Em: I feel like that’s what we do every single time. 

Christine: I know. It is l– glance around. 

Em: Um, I– Yeah, I’ll figure something out. 

Christine: Is there anything we have to– 

Em: Tell the people? 

Christine: Yeah, like or– like, uh, something about the holidays? I’m trying to think. What we got for Christmas? I don’t know. 

Em: Oh, sure. We could do that. 

Christine: We could do that. 

Em: Yeah. That’s easy. 

Christine: I built a trampoline. We could talk about that. [laughs] 

Em: I would love to hear what you got Leona, for sure. I– 

Christine: Okay, okay. Yeah, let’s do that. Let’s do, uh, a Leona Christmas update, and a Em and Christine Christmas update. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Okay. See you in a minute. 

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Christine’s Story – The Fort Worth Trio: Rachel Trlica, Renee Wilson, and Julie Ann Moseley - Part 1 

Em: Yes. Okay, that was it. Great. We did– 

Christine: Love it. 

Em: We did– [laughs] Christina and Em do Christmas. Sick. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. Christina and Em do Christmastime uh, two weeks late. Okay. So today, I have, uh, what turned into a two-parter. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, I have the first part of a story that I had not really heard of um, at least extensively, and I’m shocked because it’s the disappearance of three young girls– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: –in Fort Worth, Texas, uh, in 1974. So they’re called the “Fort Worth Trio” usually if you’re trying to like google the case. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And we just actually hit the 51-year anniversary, uh, right around Christmas time. So I thought, “Let’s do it.” Uh, the top sources I used I just want to say here because they were other like either podcasts or YouTubers, and I, I feel like some of the information the way they put it is worth giving credit to. So, uh– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –one was called “Void the Warlock.” One was called, uh– a creator called Stephanie Harlowe, and then True Crime Garage podcast did, uh, a two-parter on this. Okay. The girls in question here today: Rachel Trlica [pronounced “tra-lee-sah”]– Her last name is spelled T-R-L-I-C-A, and– 

Em: Hm, ‘kay. 

Christine: –multiple creators have said it differently. Um, the news– the local news clipping, uh, said Trlica [pronounced “tra-lee-sah”]– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –like when I– a local news like, um, TV clip from the ‘70s. But also I, as someone who worked in journalism and studied it, know that people mispronounce things all the time on the news. So I don’t know if that’s like official. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: I’ve not heard anybody else say it. 

Em: I– 

Christine: But I’m gonna say Trlica [pronounced “tra-lee-sah”] because even though it looks wrong, I– that’s what I heard. 

Em: I like how you’re like, “I know on the news sometimes they mess up our names,” as you’ve been on the news, and we’ve heard them call you “Schifer” [pronounced “shy-fer”]. [laughs] 

Christine: [chuckles] Oh, right. Like mo– Okay, fair enough. I don’t even need to be on the journalism side. I just need to be like existing– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –to know that, to know that fact. That’s very true. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, [chuckles] that’s really funny, yeah. After they asked how to pronounce it, I’m like, “Okay.” [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. And you’re like, “I th– I, I know that they’ve done this in the past to other people.” You, girl. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] I remember it like it was yesterday. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, yeah. So we’ve got, whom I’m calling, Rachel Trlica, Renee Wilson, her friend, who’s 14. Rachel, by the way– Sorry. Rachel is 17 years old. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: We’ve got 14-year-old Renee Wilson, her friend, and then a 9-year-old girl named Julie Anne Moseley. 

Em: So– 

Christine: So– 

Em: –17, 14, 9. 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: ‘kay. 

Christine: And that definitely comes into play for like theories and stuff. So December 23, 1974. It’s two days before Christmas, and three girls, Rachel Trlica, Julie Ann Moseley, and Renee Wilson, uh, went to do some last minute Christmas shopping at the Seminary South Shopping Center in Fort Worth, Texas. So 17-year-old Rachel, she had recently moved in– Now, this is something I’m gonna try and explain right off the bat. She had recently moved in with her new husband, 22-year-old Tommy Trlica. And this is the part where I say, “Yeah, she’s 17. She’s still in high school. She’s married, but like it’s the ‘70s. And also that happens.” 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: I don’t know. I don’t know what to tell you. But she was married, and people get kind of bent out of shape about that online. Um, but she was married to this 22-year-old guy. Oddly enough, he was actually divorced already once– 

Em: [chuckles] Oh my god. Okay. 

Christine: –and had a 2-year-old. So he’s like moving, and we’ll get to his whole story later. 

Em: He said, “It’s a, it’s a good life, not a long life. We’re gonna–“ [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. Right. He’s just like get– getting, um– He’s getting things done early. He’s– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –22. He’s divorced. He has a child. So in other words, Rachel moves in with, uh, her new husband. His name’s Tommy, and, uh, she now has this husband and this stepson. And a lot of sources talk about, um, Rachel’s kind of troubled home life. And so some people argue like, you know, most of it was just she’s dating this guy and she wants to get out of her own house like for safety reasons for– to save herself and moves in with this new husband, Tommy. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, but we don’t really know. Now, she actually lived with her sister, Debra. Debra lived with them, I should say. Um, and she had gotten out of a relationship and moved in with Rachel and Tommy after they got married. Um, and she, Debra, the sister, is 19 years old. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So Rachel, uh, wants to go to the mall and buy some Christmas gifts because she had a gift already wrapped for her stepson in the car, but she realized– she learned that day that the stepson, the little boy, would be coming to their house for Christmas morning. And so she was like, “Oh, shit. I only have like one gift for him. If he’s coming to our house, I want like–“ 

Em: Gotta make, gotta make it magical. 

Christine: “–Santa.” Yeah. And I’m like she’s se– She’s 17. I just think that’s so like thoughtful. So– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –she decides she needs to buy some more gifts. So she asks her sister, Debra, who’s living with them, 19-year-old Debra, if she wanted to go to the mall. And I guess they had all been up playing Canasta the night before– [chuckles] 

Em: [chuckles] Sure. 

Christine: –of all things. And so she was like, “I’m tired. I want to stay in bed,” so she didn’t go. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Um, [sighs] she decides she’s gonna call a couple people. Nobody wants to go to the mall. Nobody’s available. So she asks her good friend, Renee, age 14, who was staying at her grandmother’s house. Now, Renee, her boyfriend lived right across the street from her grandma’s house. So that morning, she’s staying at her grandma’s, and she and her boyfriend are exchanging Christmas gifts ’cause he lives across the street. He, uh, is with his nine-year-old sister, and she’s just kind of hanging around. Her name is Julie. And they’re exchanging gifts, and Terry gives Rachel a promise ring for Christmas. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And she’s so excited. Uh, she’s just head over heels for this guy. They were going to a Christmas party together that evening, and so she was really excited to show the ring off to friends and family. And then her friend, Rachel, called and said, “Do you want to go shopping?” And Renee was like, “I don’t know. Like we have this party later,” but she finally agreed on the condition that they’d be back by 4 p.m. to ensure she had plenty of time to get ready for the party. Renee asked Terry, her boyfriend, if he would like to come too um, but he declined as he had made plans to go spend time with a friend who was sick. But Terry’s nine-year-old sister, who was kind of hovering around, wanted to go and was like, “I want to go to the mall.” And– 

Em: Mm, okay. 

Christine: [chuckles] –I, I like that– 

Em: I was like, “How did a nine-year-old get involved in this?” 

Christine: I know. That’s what everybody asked immediately. Like, “Nine?” Um, it’s debated like [chuckles] nobody really knows what their thought process was, but the girls were like, “Um, okay, but you have to ask your mom for permission.” And they like knew her mom would say no– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –’cause her mom was really strict, you know. 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: And so they kind of– Some pe– Most people assume that they were like kind of hoping that the mom would say no, but we don’t have any like real proof of that. It’s just like the idea of like two BFFs who are like married and have a boyfriend and then like the little sister wants to tag along kind of vibe, you know? 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: So Julie’s mom did initially say no because she was like, “It’s–“ She apparently said, “You don’t even have money. Like what are you doing?” [laughs] But– 

Em: Wow. What a clocker. [laughs] 

Christine: I know. Yeah. “Way to remind me, uh, Mom.” But Julie begged to go, and finally, her mom was like, “Okay, but you have to be home by 6 p.m.” And unfortunately, this decision, she says, has haunted her for the rest of her life. A little before noon, this kind of unlikely group of three girls, uh, went shopping together. They stopped first at the Army Navy Surplus Store to pick up some jeans that Renee had had on layaway, and then they continued on to the Seminary South Shopping Center. That afternoon, uh, 4 p.m. came and went, and the girls did not return home. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: As 4 p.m. got closer to 5 p.m., the girls’ parents grew increasingly worried, and by 5:30, they headed to the mall in search of their daughters. Rachel’s brother, Rusty, remembers going with his mom as a little kid. I think he was like four or five. And– 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: I know. It’s ha– It’s– He’s been very eaten up by this case, um, for a number of reasons that we’ll get to. But so he remembers going to every single store in the mall and asking after his sister and her friends, um, and talking to anybody and everybody, paging them over the intercom. Like they were looking, uh, frantically right away. 

Em: So sad. 

Christine: It is. And they get to the upper level of the mall, and they find Rachel’s ’72 Oldsmobile parked in the parking lot, top floor at the Sears. 

Em: Weirdly that would immediately make me– that would be a, a bigger gut punch than fe– 

Christine: 100%. 

Em: –than relief. I’d be like, “Well–“ 

Christine: 100%. 

Em: “–where the fuck are you now?” 

Christine: Yeah, because there is no sign of the girls anywhere in or around the car. It’s like eerie. The car is parked. It’s, it’s now considered the employee parking lot um– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –but at the time, it was just the Sears parking lot. It was the top floor of the garage. Um, there was no sign of the girls anywhere nearby, seemingly untouched. There was no like blood or anything alarming at the scene. Um, this is where I had to do a little more digging because a lot of misinformation has been spread about this. In the car, a lot of times people report that the items– They found items in the car that had been purchased at the mall, like indicating that the girls went back to the car and then disappeared. 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: But that’s not the case because they actually found the jeans from the Navy Army Surplus Store, and they found the wrapped gift for the stepson that– 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: –Rachel had already had like in the car. So that was not anything new. So we– Basically, that debunks the idea that they went back to the car and then something happened to them. But most sources say that their shopping bags and stuff were in the car, but it was not. They were not. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Um, most importantly, like I said, no sign of the girls. Um, I will say just one minor detail, or I don’t know how minor it is, but when Renee picked up those two pairs of jeans at the Army Surplus Store, she had actually changed out of one pair and into the new pair. And so when they found her two pairs of jeans in the car, it was her new pair– one of the new pairs and her old pair that they found in the car. 

Em: So– Sorry, can you say that again? 

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah, sorry. It’s really confus– It’s not even that confusing. It just sounds confusing. Um, so they had gone to the surplus store, bought two pairs of jeans for Renee, and then she changed into one of them. 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: So they found her new pair– one of her new pairs and her old pair in the car. 

Em: Okay, got it. 

Christine: And some people find that really weird on like Reddit and other forums. 

Em: I don’t. 

Christine: I don’t either at all. Like people were like, “Why would you change into jeans?” And I’m like– 

Em: Maybe she l– 

Christine: –“’cause you’re a young girl, and you bought new jeans.” 

Em: –she liked how they looked. 

Christine: Yeah. I just thought it was so strange how people got like up in arms over that. 

Em: Back in the era when they– like brightly colored denim was a thing– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –the second I found my purple jeans, th– I wasn’t waiting ’til I got home to put those on. 

Christine: Are you kidding me? Your, your hands are gonna be purple from all the dye. 

Em: And they were. 

Christine: ’Cause you’re not gonna wash them. And they were. [laughs] And they still are. 

Em: [laughs] to this day. Don’t look at them. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. They’re probably radioactive, um. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah, no, but so that– Can you see why this became a two-parter? Because every like detail I would get kind of in the weeds on because people are kind of making these claims online, and I’m like, “That doesn’t–“ 

Em: I feel like– 

Christine: “–track t– for me. That doesn’t track for me.” 

Em: –only men, I feel like, are making that statement of like– 

Christine: No, a lo– a lot of people were. They were saying like, “Well, why didn’t she just wait to change into them at home before the party later?” And it’s like, “’cause she’s at the mall. That’s a social gathering, like a place where you want to wear your cute new jeans.” 

Em: If it’s not just men– ’Cause I feel like it’s like a very like girlhood experience to do that. But what– So then I have to wonder like, “Are you not of an era where the mall was relevant?” [chuckles] ’Cause– 

Christine: But what I think is happening is I think people just aren’t even thinking through like what it would– 

Em: The– 

Christine: –the fact that it’s like a teenage girl. Like I think people are just like, “Why would you do that? That’s weird. Where, where were her jeans?” And it’s like– 

Em: Just immediate victim blaming. 

Christine: I guess, yeah. Or– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –not even victim blaming, but more just like, “Oh, this is– This has to be like a huge clue.” And it’s like not really, I don’t think. 

Em: I see. 

Christine: I mean, I don’t think it like raises any red flags more than any other part of this case, but people talk about it all the time. So I just wanted to throw it out there as like– 

Em: Got it. 

Christine: –as like something that’s worth noting because people discuss it a lot. But, um– And it could be a clue i-if we had any other clues to go on, but like alone I don’t see how it really changes the story, you know. 

Em: No, it’s j– I think that’s just the, the teenage girl experience, uh– 

Christine: Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. And maybe not every teenage girl, but certainly I had zero chill at that age. And still– 

Em: Certainly enough, yeah. 

Christine: –still do. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. Okay. So they found the wrapped gift for the stepson. They found the jeans and then, uh, nothing else. They had Rachel’s husband, Tommy, come look at the car because it was his car, and, uh, he said he didn’t see anything out of the ordinary or odd except the fact that his parents’ will– They had actually recently both died. Um– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –his parents’ will and three $50 bonds appeared to be missing out of the glove box, but he wasn’t sure if he had taken them out himself. [chuckles] 

Em: What? 

Christine: So like kind of a useless clue, I guess. Um– 

Em: [chuckles] Okay. 

Christine: But, you know, if somebody stole it, y– He claimed like, “Oh, there was– there were three $50 bonds in there and my parents’ will, and now they’re missing.” But he couldn’t be sure that he didn’t take them out and misplace them. So– 

Em: I guess I’m gonna give some grace to that because there have been times where I was like, “There was a pretty big check I needed to cash. I can’t remember if I cashed it.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. And I get it. I mean, and especially if someone says like, “Would you swear on that?” And it’s like, “Well, not really. Like maybe I did–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–mistakenly throw it away or something.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So I don’t blame him either. And he’s 22, and this is a very traumatic incident, so, you know, uh. But other than that, he was like, “I don’t recognize anything out of the ordinary,” which is also just a little creepy to me. Um, so the family stayed ’til the mall closed at 11 p.m. The lights went out. No sign of the girls. Um, after which, the girls’ dads got shotguns and staked out the parking lot– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –to see if anything suspicious would happen at the car. 

Em: I totally get it. I understa– Like I didn’t mean to laugh at like– It’s just like that’s the most dad reaction of like– 

Christine: It is. It is. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like, “Step aside.” Yeah. And I will say they had already– Well, (a) we’re in Texas, so also not surprising. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And (b), um, they had already told the police. So it’s not like they’re doing this vigilant– I mean, they are doing this [chuckles] kind of vigilante, but they’re not doing this like, um, b– you know, because the pol– because the– they don’t want to tell the police. They’ve already told the police. The police are doing their own investigating or what– or lack thereof. We’ll get to that. Um, but you can just basically tell from the way they– the family handled this that they knew something was wrong– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –like immediately. They didn’t think like, “Oh, they probably went off to the party and just forgot to tell us.” Like, they were at the mall from 5:30 ’til– 

Em: And– 

Christine: –morning. 

Em: Right, right. And to know both of them– or at least two of the three had curfews that they needed to get to, like, uh– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Or not– 

Christine: One of them was nine so like had to be home by 6. One of them had that– 

Em: Was like 4:30 because of the party, right? 

Christine: ’cau– Yeah, wanted to get home for the party that she was so excited about. And she almost didn’t even go on the shopping trip ’cause she wanted to go to the party. And then the older girl who had just invited them along. So yeah, it doesn’t quite track, especially when the mall closes at 11, and they’re not anywhere to be found, but the car’s still there. 

Em: The second the mall is closed and they’re still there, I, I– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: You have to assume the worst ’cause– 

Christine: Yeah, they described like the lights going off at each store and like– 

Em: [sucks air in through teeth] 

Christine: I mean, the dread building, you know, that’s– 

Em: And what year is this? 

Christine: ’74. 

Em: ’74, okay. 

Christine: So they are staking out the parking lot. Clearly, they all know something is up. Like all three of the families know something is going on. Uh, police have been accused, as I sort of hinted at, of botching the case early on. They didn’t seem particularly concerned. They assumed the girls were runaways, um, and sort of told the family like, “Oh, they’ll be back. They’re j– They just, you know, went to blow off some steam like teenagers do,” which, you know, we’ve heard this time and time again. Um, and again, it’s the ‘70s. But then you think pretty immediately that’s debunked because like this was a– an impromptu trip. It’s not like the girls had planned this weeks in advance. Two of them didn’t even know each other, the 9-year-old and the 17-year-old. Like why would they take a nine-year-old to run away? 

Em: And al– 

Christine: Why wouldn’t they take the new car and the new jeans– or not the new car– the car and the new jea-jeans with them? Like it doesn’t make any sense. 

Em: Well, also if there’s a 17-year-old who is somehow mature enough and emotionally intelligent enough to like want to be a good stepmom and like, like– 

Christine: Yes. Oh, yes, exactly. 

Em: –show up for her stepkid– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: –like then you’re gonna be like, “I need to get home ’cause I gotta wrap these presents. Like I gotta–“ 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like she’s literally going to the mall the day before Christmas Eve, [chuckles] like which is a nightmare, you know. I mean, maybe not for t– 

Em: It’s not like this is like a week before and this is your last day of spring break– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –and you just fell into one last hoorah. This is like everyone expects everyone in the country– 

Christine: And she’s already– 

Em: –to be home tomorrow. 

Christine: Yes, and she’s already acting on it, like getting more presents. Like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I mean, it’s bizarre. And like she has the other present wrapped in the car. It’s just so weird. And so the police are kind of like, “Ah, it’s– They’re probably just runaways.” And clearly, the family was like, “Step aside. We’ve got shotguns. We’re gonna watch the car.” But all the way through the night and into the morning, nobody went anywhere near the car. It just sat there. 

Em: That’s so– 

Christine: So, so sinister. So creepy. 

Em: Mm. [sighs] 

Christine: Christmas Eve, so we’re talking the day after. The, the dads stay through the night. Nothing happens. Tommy reaches out to the other families and says, “There was a letter in my mailbox this morning.” 

Em: Oh no. 

Christine: Yes. This is one of the creepiest parts of the case. It is a letter. I’m gonna send you a picture of it, of course– or at least a sca– 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: –a picture of a scan of it. You know, it’s not the best quality, but I tried to find the least blurry example I could find. 

Em: ‘kay. 

Christine: So there’s that. 

Em: Oh, just came in. Okay. 

Christine: So the envelope is up top, and, uh, you can see that it’s addressed to “Thomas A. Trlica.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. It just says the from “Rachel.” It doesn’t say an address or anything. 

Christine: And then in the top left, just “Rachel.” And oddly, the envelope was written in pencil um– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –but the letter was written in ballpoint pen. Um, the paper that the letter was written on was the wrong size for an envelope, so it was almost like a kitchen notepad. It had been written on it like a kitchen notepad style and then like put into a different size envelope. 

Em: Yeah, you can see the fold line on the– 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Em: And you can see– Like they’re scanned– The, the envelope is literally smaller than the letter. 

Christine: Like ho– Yeah, you can totally see it. Exactly. So it was like a little bit odd. Now, it gets even weirder because the 10 cent stamp up here, which you can see has been cancelled, like stamped out. Um, it was stamped on or cancelled on, uh, Christmas Eve, but the zip codes look blurred, and the three is backwards– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –on the stamp, which like I guess could happen. And True Crime Garage talked about this extensively, like could this happen at a post office that like their zip code number is backwards and nobody notices? 

Em: Like could the s– could the stamp have malfunctioned when s– when it was being made or something? 

Christine: Well, so they– Yeah. Or– Yeah, do they just have a br– like a wrong stamp? But I think it’s like one of those where you add the numbers in yourself. But like– 

Em: Ohh. 

Christine: –but if you do that then like– and you work at this post office, then like presumably you’re not changing the zip code, so like when would you notice that? It’s just weird. I don’t know. It’s just another weird thing that doesn’t quite make any sense or fit into any cl– specific clue. 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s just weird. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: But so the addre– Whatever, um, the case– Oh, some people also think maybe the three was actually an eight that was altered to look like a three– 

Em: Ohh. 

Christine: –but they like crossed out the wrong half of it. [chuckles] 

Em: Dummies. Okay, maybe. 

Christine: Dummies. Yeah. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: So just odd. Like people have argued different things. Um, it’s unclear if that was intentional or not. Um, so with the two possible zip codes, the three and the eight, um, two different towns, but they’re both east– Now, let me read you the letter actually first before– Actually, do you want to read it? Or are you able to read it? 

Em: Ooh! Okay. Sorry. 

Christine: I don’t want to put you o– 

Em: That’s like such a fucked up thing to be excited about. I’m sorry. Um– 

Christine: No, I want you to read it, but I don’t want you to feel pressured to ’cause it’s– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –in handwriting, but you can– 

Em: Oh, I– [chuckles] I’m not– I’m no Gen Z. I can read cursive. Don’t worry. 

Christine: Oh, phew. 

Em: Alright. It says, “I know I’m going to catch it, but we just had to get away.” We’ve– “We’re going to–“ 

Christine: Houston. 

Em: “–Houston.” Thank you. “See you [soon] in about a week. The car is in Sears upper lot. Love, Rachel.” 

Christine: Doesn’t it feel creepy? 

Em: Mm. That feels way– That feels very curt– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –very um, very– a little too on, on the p– like to the point. 

Christine: Yeah, yes. 

Em: Like there’s no feeling to it. There’s no warmth to it. It’s just like, “Here’s a fact–” 

Christine: “Here it is.” 

Em: “–so you stop looking for me.” 

Christine: And now look, Em, at the “Rachel” down there because people have noticed that somebody went back– 

Em: The L? 

Christine: –over the E– an E and made it into an L. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And so some people argue, “Hey, maybe Renee wrote the letter,” right, and was able to copy the handwriting of her friend– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and was used to writing “Renee” and so did two Es. But, I mean, this is all a stretch, right? Like this is nothing we can really claim. But for what it’s worth, the families were like, “Nope, Rachel did– This is not from Rachel. We do not think this.” And of course, this caused even more alarm across the board because like, what the fuck? This doesn’t make any sense. Again, we talked about why they wouldn’t be running away l– in this scenario. Like with a 9-year-old with– like without the car. 

Em: It would like– And– [sighs] I’m– I– 

Christine: And then the address being somewhere east instead of on the way to Houston where they said they’re going. 

Em: I mean, with confidence– 

Christine: Oh, that’s what I meant to mention. Sorry. 

Em: What? 

Christine: The zip codes that are blurred – the two towns are both east, and they’re not in the direction of Houston. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So even if it said that, it’s not true, or somebody is trying to trick them, or who knows what. But the letter did not come from Houston. 

Em: So– Hate that. Um, I also– What I– My first thought, which like– and I’m not, not like I can crack a case or anything, but the eerie part to me if I were Thomas– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –is like, “This person knows my name and address.” 

Christine: Okay, so good point. Thank you for bringing that up. First of all, they were like, “She calls him ‘Tommy.’ She does not call him ‘Thomas A. Trlica.’” Like– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –she would not address it to– But, you know, maybe because it’s the envelope she wrote “Thomas A.–” 

Em: It’s the etiquette, the etiquette of it all. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: But they were really alarmed by that. They were like, “I don’t–“ The family was like, “I don’t–“ Rachel’s family said she wouldn’t have written “Thomas.” She would have written “Tommy.” That’s point A. Point B: um, the other point to it though is that back in those days especially, you could just open like– you could look at someone’s license, open the Whitepages– 

Em: Oh, right. 

Christine: –like open a phone book and just see– which by the way, his name probably would have been written as “Thomas A. Trlica” in the phone book. So it’s like– 

Em: That's a great point. 

Christine: –another kind of creepy point that the family says she would never have written “Thomas A. Trlica” on a letter to hi-him. Like she wouldn’t have. 

Em: That’s a great point. 

Christine: And so, you know, it just kind of adds to the creep factor. But then also it’s like, this is a bad sign then, a really, really bad sign. Because then whoever did this clearly knows enough about her or– to copy her handwriting or to force her to write this, coerce her to write this. Um, so some people think this is her handwriting. I will say handwriting experts have analyzed it, and they– It’s inconclusive. Some people say it is a match. Some people say it’s not. But, um, Stephanie Harlowe made a really good point of like, then it must be close enough. If people are divided over whether it’s her handwriting– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –it must be close enough to look a lot like her handwriting. So either somebody knew her well enough to copy her handwriting, or she was forced to do it, and she did it like funny to try and– 

Em: I wonder– 

Christine: –give a clue or who knows. 

Em: If I were– I hope this obviously, one, never happens, but, two, if it does, I hope the person that would have done this, uh, isn’t, isn’t listening right now. But if I were forced to write a letter– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –so that it was in my handwriting, I would hope that I at least left some like odd nods so people could catch on. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: So like maybe she intentionally wrote “Thomas” knowing that people– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, yep. 

Em: –would be like, “She wouldn’t call me that.” Like– 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: –so hopefully that was maybe like a tactic of hers? 

Christine: To trigger alarm bells, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um– Yeah, ‘cause if I wrote to you and said like “Christina M.” instead of like– 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: –“Christine,” like I– 

Christine: [chuckles] Right, right. 

Em: You’d be like, “What the fuck’s going on?” Um– [chuckles] 

Christine: “I’m gone from– I’m gone of my own free will, and I love Zak Bagans.” 

Em: [laughs] “And–“ 

Christine: “He’s my favorite idol.” 

Em: “–couldn’t imagine hiking being any better for the soul.” Yeah. Um– 

Christine: Oh my god. “I love to– Let’s go hiking soon.” [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That’s when I’ll know. 

Em: Um, No– So I– Maybe she did write it, but she was intentionally trying to make it look– 

Christine: Right. Some people do argue that. Yep. 

Em: –colder. Yeah. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: Or even funny like writing it with like her left hand or writing– not maybe with her left hand, but like writing it in like a different form of cursive than she usually– something, you know– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –might be off. Um, and again, like the, the envelope being in pencil, the note being in pen– It’s just a little strange. Some people think that the note had already been written– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and that, uh, somebody put it in an envelope that didn’t fit the notepad it was written on and like pretended it had been– I don’t know. There are just a lot of weird theories as to like how this got in the mailbox. Um, some people argue like, “Well, there’s no way it could have come overnight. Um, so maybe Rachel would have written it a few days earlier,” which means she would have planned this whole thing. But then like she wouldn’t have gone with a nine-year-old that she didn’t even know was coming. Like that just– 

Em: No, she would have been like, “That kid is ruining my fucking plan.” 

Christine: “Yeah, that ki– Literally, the one plan I’ve had for weeks–" 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: “–and this little child’s coming?” Like no, that just wouldn’t happen. Um, and also like back then especially, like if you mail something from a town over like, yeah, it can get there overnight. It’s not that abnormal– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, so essentially, things are odd. The “Rachel,” like you write your name so many times, and it’s kind of odd to like misspell, like miswrite– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: –the last letter of your name. Like it’s just an odd– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –thing. Um, and so, of course, people kind of home in on that, um, the formality of the envelope. Um, they didn’t know if, if this letter had been sent before they left or last night, um, if somebody stamped it to look like it had been stamped but then just put it in the mailbox, because actually there were no other letters in the mailbox that day. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Um– 

Em: Well, it also– ’Cause it says like the car is in Sears upper lot, so you know it had to– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –technically, at least, they want you to think that it was written up– 

Christine: Like since last night, yeah. 

Em: Since last night, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. And that’s just so creepy too, ’cause it’s like not only do they know her handwriting, but like– or are forcing her to like te– Oh god. 

Em: And “we just had to get away.” Why? What stressors were going on? 

Christine: Exactly. And like they don’t even know each other, two of them. It’s like, what in the world? 

Em: “We j–“ And also if I’m ever writing you and I’m saying, “I just had to get away with my friend and her little sister,” I’m not getting away. 

Christine: [laughs] That’s like crazy. 

Em: Now I’m babysitting a random kid. Yeah. 

Christine: Yes. And it’s so, it’s so strange to me, but police were like, “Well, see? The letter says they ran a– They just needed some time to blow off steam.” It’s like, “That’s a nine-year-old.” And by the way, this nine-year-old wouldn’t leave on Christmas. Like this nine-year-old is waiting– 

Em: That’s a great point. 

Christine: –for Santa to deliver presents. 

Em: And I promise you the nine-year-old didn’t “need to get away.” So like I– 

Christine: No, exactly. 

Em: So I’m pretty sure the nine-year-old is kicking and screaming in the car being like, “Why did the two of you need to get away?” 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: “It’s fucking Christmas. I’m gonna miss my presents.” 

Christine: That’s not– 

Em: That’s a great point. 

Christine: That, that ain’t it. That ain’t it. Like there’s no fucking way, and so it’s just ridiculous. But also that makes it so sinister because now we know there’s no way this letter is real – or at least we don’t believe it is. So like either somebody forced her to write it or somebody’s trying to fool, uh, the families and the police, which is triple bad. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, I will say too that like at this point, it’s not like this was widely– this wasn’t like reported yet, right. ’Cause it had just been one night, so it’s not like some prankster– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –did this, you know. It’s like this clearly was somebody who knew what had happened the night before. Just really sinister and creepy. So on January 1, which was just over a week later, there still hadn’t– been no sign of the girls. A man who knew Rachel, like as a friend, called Rachel’s father and said, “Hey, I just wanted to let you know. I just saw what happened, and I actually saw Rachel and the girl, the– her two friends at the mall that day on December 23.” And he says he talked to Rachel, and he noticed that another person was with them. 

Em: Oh? Okay. 

Christine: Like kind of just part of their group. But we don’t have any more details on this. There’s nothing else reported about it, and it doesn’t appear that police really followed up on it. So we don’t know what it means. Like was this person like, uh, hovering over them? 

Em: Like– 

Christine: Was this person like just like creepily in the background? 

Em: Was he like hitting on one of them and kind of joined their squad for the day? A– 

Christine: Was it a man? Was it a woman? We don’t even know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Was it another little girl? Like we don’t know. 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: So it’s just frustrating. Like we don’t even know much– 

Em: Could have been someone from school, yeah. 

Christine: Right. So we don’t know much besides noticed another person was with them. Uh, then January 3, in the Fort Worth Telegram, they quoted a detective saying, “I wish we had just one clue, one clue to get us off that parking lot.” They basically said they were stuck at the parking lot. It was like as if the girls just “poof!” – vanished. Um, and even though a couple people at the mall had seen them and had, had said they’d seen them, there were barely any details. Uh, and nobody could say where to go next, like where to leave this top floor parking lot– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and, and where to go. So in early January, [sighs] uh, the family received a call from a– an alleged friend of the girls saying the girls would be arriving that evening on the Greyhound bus, like the 10 o’clock Greyhound. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And all the families like rushed to the Greyhound station. They waited there and, of course, were devastated when the bus came and the girls were not there. Um– 

Em: Oh, so it’s just toying with them now. 

Christine: Yes, so– Or– So Thomas and, uh, someone else – I forget who – waited, uh, through several more hours to see if maybe they would somehow, by miracle chance, like have gotten on a different bus, but they never came. And by the time the families got home, Renee’s family found their house had been burglarized while they were out. 

Em: [gasps] Oh, ew. So this– 

Christine: Is that not the creepiest fucking thing? 

Em: So they are absolutely just toying with the– with these families. I mean– 

Christine: Or it’s just a prankster who knew that this would get the family out of the house, knew where they lived, and said – not a prankster, I’m sorry, a full-blown criminal – and then planned a robbery for when the– like got the family out– 

Em: You’re totally right. 

Christine: –like sociopath level, like got the family out to the bus station, knowing they would all go. And then like– 

Em: You’re totally right. 

Christine: So– But yeah, so we don’t know. But it, it could also be somebody, um, who wanted to access Rachel’s belongings, you know. We don’t know. But, yeah– 

Em: I mean, you made the good point earlier of the Whitepages. I mean, it c– And this is all in the news. It could have been anyone who just– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –said like, “Oh, well, now we know where they live, and we know a way to get them out.” Yeah, that’s– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. “We just look up Thomas A. Trlica or whatever, and–“ But yeah, so they were able to find the family’s house and burglarize it while they were out. And it’s like sick. I mean, it’s sick either way – if it’s the person toying with them or if it’s just a random– 

Em: Well, I feel like it’s the same people, um, that are from the beginning. 

Christine: Yeah? 

Em: Because in the letter too, it says, “See you in about a week,” and I immediately– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –read that and thought, “They’re stringing them along.” 

Christine: “See you in about a week.” Oh, ew. 

Em: I feel like they’re not coming back in a week. That was just like to push– That was to delay the inevitable. 

Christine: But also like this burglary happened like a week later. 

Em: Oh, ew. Like the, the person who either wrote this or forced them to. 

Christine: “See you in a week.” That’s what I thought you were saying. I was like, “Ahh!” [chuckles] 

Em: It’s like, “I’ll see you in a week.” Ooh. 

Christine: Although, it was– 

Em: Wow, I’m accidentally a genius. Okay. 

Christine: I know. Except now that I look at it, I’m like 12/23– a week later is the 30th. So okay, never mind. It’s like a week and a half. Um– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: It said “about a week.” 

Em: “About a week.” 

Christine: But– 

Em: But I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But that feels like it was– The way I read it– From the second I read it the first time, it was like, “I feel like that’s just stringing them along, and they’re never gonna show up.” So– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: I don’t know. It just feels like a similar mind game. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Um, but I’ll be honest, a lot of people pranked these families, and said– 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: –and strung them along like for fun. 

Em: That’s so evil. 

Christine: Like this one obviously was like with criminal motive, but the– Like as an example– Here, I’ll find it. Actually, let me tell you about one more that was like creepy, and then we’ll get to the prank calls. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Because, uh, there were so many prank calls. But on January 7, Julie’s mother received a call. Julie was the nine-year-old. And she said “hello” a few times. She didn’t really hear much. Then she heard a moan, and she heard a little girl’s voice say, “Mama,” and she swears– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: She would be willing to swear on her life that it was her daughter. She said, “I understand that someone could be stringing me along, but I know, I know that’s my daughter.” 

Em: You know your kid’s voice. You know your kid’s voice. 

Christine: She asked who it was. She said no answer. She said, “Is this Julie– Julie Ann Moseley?” and the girl said, “Yes.” She said, “Where are you?” And the girl said, “I don’t know, Mama,” and then the phone hung up. And she said she would swear her life on it. Then again, you know, you’re tr– you’re in this shock trauma. You’re, you’re hoping for something. So of course, that can skew your perspective. We don’t know that that was Julie. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: However, she is convinced and swears to this day that it’s her daughter’s voice. Um, one call came in, uh, a call to Renee’s parents, and they claimed it was Renee. And when they traced the call, because now they knew all these pranks were coming in and all these potential not pranks were also coming in. So they traced the call, and they found it was a 14-year-old girl just prank calling for fun. 

Em: Evil. 

Christine: I mean, what? 

Em: The way that I quickly believed that woma– I, I believed the mom though. I was like, “If you know your kid, fuck. Like, I’m not gonna–“ But it was just a little girl the whole time? 

Christine: No, no. So– Good point. 

Em: Sorry. I think I– I think– 

Christine: No, no, you’re go– You’re good. So that was a call to Renee’s family that they traced to a 14-year-old girl, and this girl admitted to making several of the calls but said she did not make the one to Julie’s mother. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So I just say that to say, even though they caught one of the girls who was doing this, quote unquote, “for fun,” I guess– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –um, they did not– she did not, uh, admit to doing the one to Julie’s mom and said that was not her. So Julie, Julie’s mom– 

Em: We’ll never know. 

Christine: –still swears that th– that that was Julie. So it’s possible, you know. 

Em: That little 14-year-old girl, I hope– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: ’Cause talk about karma. I hope she– I hope karma finds her. That’s all. 

Christine: Uh, yeah. I, I– I’m like, there’s one thing about being like a child, right, and making bad decisions. But like that is like, “What’s going on with you, my dear? Like something’s up for you to be making decisions like this.” Like Stephanie Harlowe said, “I want to look up [chuckles] where the hell this girl is now, you know.” 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: Like that’s alarming behavior. Um, but kids are– Kids are kids. I don’t know. Okay, so. Rachel’s mother also learned– So a lot of this is kind of on the ground work that the families are doing because the police are sort of like, “Eh, they’re just running away. That’s all. They’ll, they’ll be back.” So the parents are doing– And, of course, they’re the ones getting all these phone calls, right. So they’re like kind of being driven crazy, and they’re trying to pursue every lead, and they’re trying to figure out how to find these girls. At one point, Rachel’s mother learns that an elderly woman may have witnessed the abduction. And I have – um, this was from Stephanie Harlowe’s video – a screen– or a clipping of the, the article from March 14, 1975. “Fort Worth Texas. An elderly woman may have witnessed the abduction of three girls missing since December 23. Mrs. R. W. Arnold, mother of Rachel Trlica, 17, said she has learned three clerks at a store in Seminary South Shopping Center, where her daughter and two friends are believed to have been, say an elderly woman discussed three girls with them. The woman said she saw a girl being forced into a pickup truck the day of the disappearances. Mrs. Arnold said the woman told the clerks there were two girls and a man inside, and a second man was forcing the third girl into the truck.” 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: “‘If the woman would call us, we might be able to learn more about this thing, and we would promise to keep her name secret,’ Mrs. Arnold said.” But they never were able to get a hold of this woman. 

Em: Dang. 

Christine: So essentially, three employees– Just to give like a quick ca– 

Em: CliffNotes. 

Christine: Yeah, CliffNotes. Three employees at the mall separately said that this elderly woman had come to them and said, “Hey, I saw this thing happening.” And I mean, I don’t know why nobody report– 

Em: Did anything? 

Christine: –did anything, but whatever. And they said, “Oh, yeah, she came to tell us about this– about seeing these girls being forced into a pickup truck. It was a yellow truck with lights on top of it.” So it could be like mall security or, you know, something of that nature. And that was all they could find. They, they begged for this woman to come forward. They could keep her anonymous, but they never, never heard from her, uh, beyond what the employees at the mall said. 

Em: [whispers] Oh my god. 

Christine: So another just really frustrating dead end of a lead. At one point, the family worked with a private investigator named Jon Swaim, and he was kind of notorious, uh, in town for being– for making really wild and bold like claims about cases and things like that. Um, he liked to stir the pot and stir up drama. He would get on these like press conferences and like, you know, say like, “The police, blah-blah-blah, are doing–“ like just to kind of stir the pot. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: He pursued several false leads, uh, that ended up kind of creating some turmoil, but he was doing a lot of interviews uh, and he was talking to a lot of people. He unfortunately died of a drug and alcohol overdose in 1979, and it was ruled as a suicide. And when Rachel’s mom went to pick up some photos that she’d loaned him for the investigation, she found out that his last request was to have all his files burned upon his death. 

Em: Oh, shady. 

Christine: And so they burned– Everything had been burned. Three years of his work, three years of interviews, all the photos and paperwork that the family had loaned him, everything was burned. Um, but not only that case, right? It w– It was all his work. 

Em: Oh, okay. It was all cases. 

Christine: So it’s sort of like it could have been a different case, but this was the one that he was, you know– one of the ones he was actively working on when he died. Um– 

Em: Gotcha. I thought for a second you meant just theirs, and I was– 

Christine: Oh, no. 

Em: –like, “Hello, that’s so bad.” Um– 

Christine: I know. And it like it could be from that case, but we, we just have no idea. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Uh, and so that was just another really frustrating, um, part of this. So that is the end of part one. I’m gonna, uh– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –give you a little hint here, part two, a teaser. Um, I’m gonna tell you more about Tommy Trlica– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and his marriage to Rachel, uh, some possible culprits that have been mentioned over the years, and why Rachel’s brother, Rusty, has grown up and now believes that their older sister, Debra, might have had something to do with it. 

Em: Wow, thank you for the little teaser trailer. What the hell was that? 

Christine: [singing a dramatic musical sting] ♪ Dun, dun, dun ♪♪ I don’t know. 

Em: It was wonderful. 

Christine: I just wrote down a bulleted list of what I needed to cover next week, and I was like– 

Em: It’s so we hold you accountable next week. We can go, “Remember? You said–“ 

Christine: I know. I have– Somebody has to. Somebody has to. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, but yeah. No, it’s just so crazy. Like I’m on page– I don’t know. I’m like way far in, and I still have so much [laughs] to discuss, so it has to be a two-parter. 

Em: No, this is awesome. 

Christine: But– 

Em: Look, I love a two-parter. You can keep that up if you want. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: That’s a– 

Christine: It’s, it’s– 

Em: –a good time. 

Christine: When I get invested, you know, really invested. Um, well, thank you everybody for listening. Uh, we appreciate you, and happy new year, even though, um– You know, let’s just all hold out until the, the actual– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –s– uh, horse comes around in February, whenever that is. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Um, and hopefully, hopefully, we can – I don’t know – survive ’til then [laughs] I guess. 

Em: Sure, sure. Yeah. Well, good luck, everybody, in 2026. And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink. 

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