E468 MySpace Siren Calls and Sit Down Comedians

TOPICS: THE OLD TELLER COUNTY JAIL AKA CRIPPLE CREEK JAIL AKA THE OUTLAWS AND LAWMEN JAIL MUSEUM, VINCENT VIAFORE AND ANGELIKA GRASWALD

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Whattup playas? It’s time for episode 468 where this week Em tells us the wild tales of the haunted Old Teller County Jail aka Cripple Creek Jail aka The Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum (truly a place of many names!). Then Christine covers the case of Vincent Viafore and Angelika Graswald which leaves us quite frustrated with the justice system. And don’t forget to add us to your MySpace top 8! …and that’s why we drink!

Photo Links:
Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum
Angelika and Vincent
Bannerman Island

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Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: Sick brother-uh, “brotherton.” Hello, everyone. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [chuckles] Welcome to And That’s Why We Drink, bros. 

Em: Uh, what up “playas”? 

Christine: Let me just like crack open a cold brewski. [twists open a bottle] 

Em: I know. I know, and I, I hope you do. Uh, le– 

Christine: This wasn’t even the plan, but I literally have a beer next to me. 

Em: I– Can I guess the flavor because– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –it’s all I have. Um– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Oh my god. 

Em: L-like when I see a can of alcohol, I– I’m assuming it’s flavored with something, and I’m always curious what the color– like what’s the most popular– 

Christine: Okay. Okay, interesting idea– 

Em: –flavor for a can. 

Christine: –’cause I do like that. Okay, let’s cover up– I’ll cover up– It’s a Rhinegeist local. Love this stuff. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I’m covering up like the name of it. [Christine holds her beer can closer to the camera, hiding the bottom of the can with her hand. The can is a dark emerald green with a strip of yellow-green with dark swirls running around the middle of the can and the Rhinegeist logo half on the dark green and half on the yellow-green. “Rhinegeist” is written in an arc at the top of the can with “Cincy Made” underneath.] 

Em: Couldn’t tell you a single thing about what flavors they even offer. So when I see green, I’m gonna assume it’s like a lime situation, but I feel like that’s too easy. I feel like is the– But green also to me, I feel citrusy. There– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: It’s, it’s something citrusy. I’m gonna go grapefruit. 

Christine: Listen, [reading the can] “Juicy Truth – Hazy Juicy India Pale Ale. Some truths are juicier than others. Brewed to unleash the bright tropical aromas of the generous hop bill, this hazy IPA is brimming with pineapple, mango, and citrus notes.” 

Em: [tsks] I told you, lime was too easy. 

Christine: But then it says “log off,” so I think I’m gonna go away now. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It says, “Log off. Catch the wave. Enjoy.” 

Em: [laughs] It’s like a weird fortune cookie. It was like, “Actually, stop what you’re fucking doing.” 

Christine: Okay. Like I’ve been drinking Vitaminwater and the– on the pink ones that I like it says, “We know you’re stalking your ex right now,” or something. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And I’m like, why do you put that on every bottle? It’s so weird. I’m above that now. 

Em: Why do I fe– 

Christine: But stop reminding me that it’s an option. 

Em: I feel like someone who didn’t leave their like 2006 party days wrote that. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah, that– It feels like me. It feels like I wrote it like in 2006 and then like sent it forward to myself. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: It’s just like– I’m like, “Why do you put that on there? That’s so toxic and strange.” And like maybe I am. It’s none of your fucking business, you know? 

Em: I mean, I get why they did it. I– It was the only reason– What was that stupid– Was it, um– Remember back when there was that phase where like it was like– not Vitaminwater, but it was a brand like that, but every single one of their wrappers had like a blurb that like was so off the charts weird and random. Like XXX or something? 

Christine: Oh, I missed this. Uh– 

Em: No, I’m just saying– [while typing] XXX water. Oh, it was Vitaminwater. Okay. Um, Vitaminw– Yeah, each o– 

Christine: That’s the thing. They have a quippy– a weird, stupid, quippy thing on it. 

Em: Yeah. But each of their flavors was like unnecess– like the, the writing or the description for the flavor was unnecessarily ridiculous. 

Christine: And they were like long. Like I remember– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –the yellow ones just being like paragraphs. 

Em: I, I feel like it was r– like the first round of people really trying something with like m-media marketing and like so– 

Christine: That marketing thing, yeah. 

Em: –that like, that for our generation would work. Because I remember buying that stuff just so I could go read what they all had to say and collecting the labels ’cause they all had something crazy on them. 

Christine: Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, I was never– My parents just bought it at Costco, and I was like, “All right, I guess, uh, I gotta live with these stupid blurbs for the rest of my life.” 

Em: I’m just saying if I got a product and it said, “I bet you’re stalking your ex right now,” I would hold on to that for a second just to show others. 

Christine: The thing that like bothers me is that I thought, “That’s funny,” and then the other five bottles said the same thing. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: And I was like, “Can we like–“ 

Em: Now it’s not fun anymore. 

Christine: “–come up with something a little more clever? Like, like can we mix it up, you know?” Like “I’m not always stalking my ex–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “–but if I am, I’m drinking a Vitaminwater.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Paid promotion. No, uh– 

Christine: I mean, it probably is true. I drank so much of it in high school I feel like it’s probably like a sensory memory, you know. 

Em: I, I do– I, I, I miss the, the days of yore when everything was like so random. I know that’s cringe now, but I– 

Christine: Oh my god, so quirky and random. 

Em: –I thrived in that shit, so. 

Christine: Oh, yeah, of course we did. We were MySpace kids, man. We love– We’re like, “Oh, do it– DIY my page? Didn’t think, uh– thought you’d never ask.” 

Em: [chuckles] Well– 

Christine: “But here I go, coding.” 

Em: What was your favorite feature on your MySpace page? 

Christine: Oh my god, I’m such a dork. I just alway– 

Em: Or what was your song? At some point, you had to– Like what was one of the songs you had as your, your personalized song? 

Christine: I don’t want to tell you. 

Em: Why? Fallout Boy, what? 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Was it–? 

Christine: I feel like I have to prove it to– not prove it, but I feel like I have to, uh– 

Em: You don’t. 

Christine: Uh– 

Em: Whatever you’re about to say, I will believe. Was it like Barney or something? W– 

Christine: [laughs] No, that was probably yours. Um, I had the Glenn Miller Orchestra, uh, for a while. Um, I just– 

Em: That’s so German. That feels German. I don’t know why. 

Christine: It’s not. It’s like World War II USA. I don’t know. It just like– 

Em: That’s German, babe. What are you talking about? [laughs] 

Christine: No, you– Like big band US– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Like big band, like, um, Glenn Miller, you know? He sings like, um– The song was the one that goes like– It– Let me see if I can– He sings “In the Mood.” Oh dear. 

Em: Oh? To fight the– for the nation? What? 

Christine: Oh, I had, I had “Moonlight Serenade,” I think. 

Em: “Moonlight Serenade.” Well– Here, we’ll put a sample here. 

Christine: Anyway– 

Em: We’ll put a sample. [laughs] 

Christine: But then I also had, uh– Actually– But that was just like for funsies because I thought it was funny. 

Em: ’Cause it was so random. [makes a peace sign] 

Christine: It– ’Cause it was so random, Em. Like it’s so cringe. But the one that I actually had, ’cause I was trying to send a message– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –was, um, Billy Talent. I had Billy Talent on there. I had, um, all the most dramatic ones, like um, like go– like literally they’re like, “drive over me with a truck,” um– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –like, “I-I’m gonna kill my–“ Like they were really– 

Em: [snorts] 

Christine: –really dark and emo. [chuckles] And I was like, “Yeah, now everyone will understand.” But then the, the thing– my favorite feature of MySpace, which was your first question, was when they had those fucking – this is so embarrassing – those quizzes– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –that were like personality quizzes. And every time it said, “When was the last time you cried?” I’d be like, “Last night.” 

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Or just like– 

Christine: And I’d be like, “I want my crush to ask me why.” 

Em: Or who you– 

Christine: [laughs] And like he never did. 

Em: “Who just texted you?” “You’ll never know, winky face.” 

Christine: Yeah, “You wish you knew.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And it would be– was like my stepmom. And I’m like– 

Em: It was, it was never– 

Christine: It’s just I never had good– I just loved it, and I just wanted people to– I just wanted to be perceived in a way– a certain– I just wanted to be seen, you know. 

Em: But only by a crush. It was like– Uh, for people who don’t know– 

Christine: That's all I cared about. 

Em: –it was like imagine Instagram has, I don’t know, links to surveys and– or you could post– 

Christine: Oh, yeah, you can– 

Em: You could post them and fill them out on like your story. I mean, this is– I’m trying to make it Instagram, so people know what I’m talking about. 

Christine: They do have that though, where it’s like “insert your–“ like “hear my favorite whatever,” and– 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: –you can like post it to your story. 

Em: Yeah, the like fill in spots, but there w– 

Christine: It's not the same, but. 

Em: But it was like it was unnecessarily long. There was like 200 questions on these sometimes. 

Christine: [laughs] You had to scroll for like pages. 

Em: Like it beca– it became homework, and you were doing that instead of your homework. 

Christine: Our attention sp– Oh, 100%. 

Em: And– 

Christine: And I was like, “I do–“ That’s how people like you and I with our ADHD were like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –“Okay, I know I can do things. It’s just I have to be really motivated.” 

Em: [chuckles] Committed. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But people would fill it out, and the– really the only goal ever of those was you had to hope and assume that the person you were obsessed with was also obsessed with you– 

Christine: Absolutely. 

Em: –and reading e-every single of the 200 prompts, so that they could get to know you and then IM you about it later. But it never happened. It never– 

Christine: It never happened. I mean, maybe it did for some people. It certainly never happened for me. 

Em: It– Well, it, it felt like it to me because I know the people I was obsessed with, I was reading their prompts. So I just prayed to god– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –I wasn’t alone and someone else did that. 

Christine: But I’m– It’s not fair ’cause I was liking boys, and they don’t post shit like that. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So I should have just known at the time just commit to girls now– 

Em: I– [chuckles] You’re right. 

Christine: –and then you got the back and forth. But I just got the like, “Oh, they’ve haven’t updated their MySpace, and Tom is still their only person in their top eight, so I don’t get to know anything.” 

Em: Well, I would read, I would read my crush’s post and– 

Christine: [gasps] Oh my god. 

Em: What? 

Christine: One time, one time, it worked. One time, I had a crush on this guy, and he was way out of my like social league. Like he was complete– And one time, he like posted– Oh my god, it was like the best day of my life truly, as far as like a high from that kind of thing. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: He posted like “Heard this song in assembly today.” It was my ringtone or something. He’s like, “I can’t believe Christine– or someone had Cold War Kids as their song.” Like– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: I’ll like– I, uh– and like posted something, and then the next day, I was like, “I’m– Am I like having a fever dream?” Like he posted this weird mysterious post, and then the next day during history– It was like three weeks left in class, and he sat next to me, and everyone was like, “Why are you sitting over there?” And I was like, “Oh my god, it’s happening,” but that was when I was in the midst of all my hexing– 

Em: Uh-huh. [chuckles] 

Christine: –and so it ended up backfiring on me a little bit. Um– 

Em: I see. I was gonna say– 

Christine: But it worked for a minute. I was like, “I’m literally siren-calling this guy into my atmosphere, my orbit.” 

Em: He happened to hear your ringtone at assembly. That’s– That was what did it for him? 

Christine: And then he like wrote a post about it and was like, “I’m really into that.” 

Em: I just know you were in the AV room, just wiring the speakers to play your ringtone song. [laughs] 

Christine: The way I– [laughs] I was just at like the nurse’s station, like “She has a PA in here, right? I can just kind of PA out to everyone.” 

Em: [laughs] You were just holding your ringtone. You were calling yourself and playing on the speaker. 

Christine: [laughs] It’s so cringey ’cause it was a BlackBerry– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –and I was like– Oh my god, and then– Oh, and then he posted on my wall, and I remember I stood up from the computer– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –threw my chair back, like– 

Em: You have to. 

Christine: –walked out of the room, disassociated for a while, came back and went, “I must have dreamed that,” and it was like still there, like he had posted on my wall. And I was like– He’s like, “You have good taste in music,” and I was like– 

Em: [laughs] “We’re getting married.” 

Christine: “It’s happening.” [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “It’s happening.” And then I ended– Yeah, then it didn’t– Let’s just say it didn’t work out. Nothing happened. 

Em: Man. 

Christine: But I knew I could hex at that point, and I realized that’s a dangerous power to hold, so. 

Em: That’s a gift and a curse. 

Christine: And a curse. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: [laughs] Well, welcome to And That’s Why We Drink, everybody. Um, where– 

Christine: Usually that’s like a Yappy Hour segment, but today, we’re just go– Oh, how about during the Yappy Hour, we do one of those quizzes? 

Em: Oh, that’d be fun. 

Christine: That would be fun. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Or we will look at MySpace layouts or something. I don’t know. 

Em: No– Easy. Ea– That’s– You’re asking a millennial– 

Christine: Do you think our crushes will hear it? 

Em: –if I want to go travel to MySpace? What? 

Christine: Do you think my crush will hear it? 

Em: [laughs] Do I think your crush will hear–? 

Christine: Will hear Yappy Hour? 

Em: No, I don’t think Blaise will fucking– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] A-at all. I know Allison won’t. So we could, uh, just go back to our rancid 16-year-old ways. [laughs] 

Christine: That’s fine. I’ll think about Henry then. 

Em: Okay, perfect. I’m thinking of Sydney. Um– 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: Hey, girl. Uh, where are we? Ugh, god. Now I’m just thinking about Sydney. [sighs] Anyway, [chuckles] that was nice, wasn’t it? 

Christine: Wow. Trip down memory lane. That was the– Yeah. What was your song? I forget. You’ve told me before. 

Em: Oh, well, I mean, mine switched all the time. I had a lot of phases. 

Christine: I feel like it was like– I did, too. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Was yours like Bob Marley or some shit? 

Em: No, although I did have a Bob Marley phase. Um– 

Christine: I feel like I see that in you. 

Em: Uh, I think ’cause I, I hung out with a lot of people who wore like those Baja hoodies– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and they listened to it, and I was like– And so I listened to it mainly ’cause it reminded me of the memories of that. Um– 

Christine: It like fits one of your vibes. Yeah. 

Em: Well, it r– it– No, it doesn’t. But in my– 

Christine: I mean, it fits your– one of your aesthetic vibes that I know about, like the hoodies and stuff. Like it, it fits that– 

Em: I, I was– 

Christine: –from a shallow perspective. 

Em: I was a, a college kid who hung out with a lot of stoners. We went to a lot of hookah lounges, which in my mind I combined as a, a smoking, sm– stoner thing. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: There was a lot of, um, Bob Marley around me. And I was like, um, a dubstep kid, and one of Bob Marley’s sons– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –put out dubstep, so I listened to that. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So um, anyway, sorry. My song was, uh– The one I’m– I think of immediately was either “Honestly” by Cartel or– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: –or when, um– 

Christine: That’s good. That’s cool. 

Em: –when Sydney and I ended, [sighs] uh, it was “Dashboard Confessional–” 

Christine: Aw, I’m so– 

Em: –stolen, of course. 

Christine: Oh! I’m so, I’m so jealous that you actually like started and stopped something. I never got to do that part. 

Em: Oh, no, no, no. Let’s be clear. It was like a very like what you see on TV. Like we’re talking, and obviously there’s tension. Um, we kissed once– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –but then never spoke about it. And then I think she got freaked out about– 

Christine: That’s so much worse. 

Em: –people finding out ’cause a lot of people were starting to wonder about us, and this was at a time in the world when– 

Christine: This is so horrible. 

Em: –you covered that shit up. So when people started asking questions, she broke up with me. 

Christine: You’re breaking my heart right now. 

Em: And then I listened to “Dashboard Confessional” for like a year and a half. Yeah, it was really rough. 

Christine: You had the best reason to. Like I didn’t. I was sitting there going, “Why is no one listening to me in assembly?”, playing my music in my phone, but you– 

Em: You– 

Christine: –had an actual like kiss out of it? Oy vey. 

Em: You know what’s wild though? 

Christine: The heartbreak, the heartbreak. 

Em: –is I literally disassociated the kiss, and I totally– Like– And by the way, Sydney, [sighs] we’re still friends. This is not– It’s not weird. We’ve discussed. 

Christine: Oh my god. It gets better. 

Em: We’ve discussed at this point, which was lovely because we finally got to tell each other years later as grown adults like, “I was in love with you.” 

Christine: You need closure, yeah. 

Em: And then she was like, “I was in love with you,” and I’m like, “Oh, fina–” Like 14-year-old me can finally be put to rest. Um– 

Christine: That “Dashboard Con–“ You better have gone back to yourself in your mind’s eye and been like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –“You will never fucking believe what’s gonna happen in a few decades.” 

Em: [chuckles] I lit– I did. I tried to go back there, and I was like– “It’s–“ 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: “It’s happening,” just like you were saying. Well, so I– Apparently, the first time, and I think only time, we kissed, I thought, “This can’t be real,” and so I just blacked it out. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: She had to tell me years later. She’s like, “We for sure kissed,” and when she said it, it came back. But I was like– I thought I had dreamt it. I thought I had just assumed that, you know. 

Christine: I, you know, I have moments like that, too, where I’m like, “Did that happen or did I just h–“ Yeah, yeah. You just don’t trust your own reality. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, I get it. 

Em: Anyway, 14-year-old me, we did it. We made it. We did it. We– 

Christine: [sighs] Thank god. 

Em: We’re great. The, the confession came out. We told her, and now she’s marrying someone else. [over-dramatically] Oh no, the horror. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, anyway. By the way– Well, I don’t want to give away– I’ll tell, I’ll tell you privately, but she’s changing her last name. She’s getting married to, um– I have never met– I haven’t met this person, but they seem lovely. They have decided together that they’re changing their last name to a very cool last name. Um– 

Christine: Oh, I’m so j– That’s so cool. 

Em: I’m– I’ll tell you about it– 

Christine: Schlampugnale is still not catching on. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: No. Uh, I will tell you– 

Christine: I can’t wait. 

Em: –off-air what it is, but it’s– she’s gonna sound like a superhero, which is so cool. 

Christine: Like I just love when people’s names just work out. That’s so kickass. 

Em: I know. I know. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, you know about Schultzforth. That’s as good as I think we’re getting here. 

Christine: I mean, that’s as good as gold. 

Em: It’s, it’s better than what’s going on currently. I don’t mind it. Um, and, by the way, I bought a plaque for the house that makes the house look– Like it’s like one of those like historical– 

Christine: You know I want– Remember that time I cried in the car ’cause the house that I really wanted to buy went off-market– 

Em: Had a plaque? 

Christine: –and it had a plaque– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –and I said, [mock tearfully] “I just wanted a plaque.” And Blaise was like, “I’m sorry your house with the plaque is gone.” 

Em: I got the house an old plaque that looks like it’s off– 

Christine: Get your own damn plaque. 

Em: –a haunted witchy home– 

Christine: I love that. 

Em: –and it says “The Schulzforth Manor.” 

Christine: See, like what the fuck? Why don’t you make your own plaque? That’s so smart. 

Em: Etsy is so powerful. 

Christine: I need to go do that. 

Em: And– 

Christine: I’ll make my own Schlampugnale one. 

Em: [chuckles] It– Honestly, that would be beautiful. 

Christine: [snorts] 

Em: I– It makes me wonder about every plaque I’ve ever seen now. ’Cause I’m like, “If it’s been this easy, why is this on your house? W– Is this–“ 

Christine: 100%. 

Em: “–really a historical landmark or did you just buy this?” 

Christine: Hundo. Although part of me thinks be– that I– ’Cause I live in a historic neighborhood, I feel like the historic society is gonna immediately clock in and be like, “Take that down. You don’t deserve a plaque.” [chuckles] 

Em: Just put it on the other side of the house. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: You know. 

Christine: I’ll just put it on my balcony, and I’m like, “You can’t reach it. Sorry.” 

Em: Uh, I– No, I’m– It says– I don’t know if this is true, but this is what, this is what I found online and then ordered it as such, so I hope I’m correct. But I found out that plaques, if they say like “C”, like circa, and then a year, it’s different than if it’s “established” and the year. 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: And my understanding, correct me if I’m wrong. Actually, don’t because I already bought the plaque. 

Christine: I was gonna say, I can’t. I certainly don’t know. 

Em: Well, if you’re a historian, just nod along because I already bought the plaque and it was expensive. But “C”, uh, or circa means that’s when the house itself was built and– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –“establish” is when the family moved in. 

Christine: Oh, okay. That makes sense. 

Em: So um, so ours says “Schulzforth Manor circa” and then the year the house was built. So– 

Christine: [gasps] And you’re like– 

Em: –lot, lot of– 

Christine: –it’s been Schulzforth Manor since that day. 

Em: That’s what I’m kind of hoping. 

Christine: Sorry. 

Em: I’m hoping nobody knows the circa established thing, and I’m like, “Yeah, that’s– We, we moved into a haunted house.” Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, they knew we were coming from the day they built it. They were like, “The name has to be Schulzforth.” 

Em: [laughs] Um, what is your circa? 1880? 

Christine: ’67, I think it’s something like that. 

Em: 1867? 

Christine: Like 1860s, and I didn’t really clock that– 

Em: Crazy. 

Christine: –until recently, and I was like, “That’s–“ I mean, not that I didn’t clock it. My house is falling apart. I’ve clocked it– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –of more than– It’s clocked me, frankly. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: But, uh, I was listening to, again, Jim Harold– with all the shout-outs to Jim Harold. Um, and people were saying like, “Oh, my house from the 1890s,” and I was like, “That’s old.” And then I’m like, “Wait a minute. [chuckles] Like my house is fucking old.” I don’t think it like hit me until recently where I was like, “Oh, of course there are ghosts here, man.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like, “Hello?” 

Em: There’s no way that your entire neighborhood isn’t riddled with an entire other community– 

Christine: I think it has to be. 

Em: –you just can’t see. Yeah. 

Christine: It has to be. 

Em: Um, I hope that they are not trapped in their houses and that they can still walk to and from if they enjoyed each other. 

Christine: I mean, that would be delightful because there was like a bur– a bustling community, and they had, um, pigs running around ’cause– 

Em: Ooh. 

Christine: –it was Porkopolis, and they had like– I mean, remember I found that article that said like the woman who lived in this house, um, hosted like a Halloween party for all the kids in town? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And I’m like, “I just love that–“ 

Em: I love that. 

Christine: “–that’s the energy we’re– I’m gonna hold on to that.” So– [chuckles] 

Em: What was her name? 

Christine: [sighs] You know, I don’t– I should know it ’cause I think that might be the one that I like am always sensing on the stairwell, but I don’t remember her name. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: I don’t remember her name. 

Em: It’d be fun if for Halloween you had a shrine for her, like a– like put her– 

Christine: Aw, like a little– 

Em: Like an altar or something. 

Christine: Like a Day of the Dead, like honoring– Yeah. 

Em: Just like light a candle for her– 

Christine: Not a bad idea. 

Em: –and go, “We know you would want to celebrate.” 

Christine: I sometimes watch that show Ghosts, and I’m like– imagine all the other ghosts being like, “Why the fuck does she get a shrine?” You know? 

Em: [laughs] Because– 

Christine: Like why does– 

Em: –the squeaky wheel gets the oil. 

Christine: That’s so beautiful. Beautiful. 

Em: And she was squeaky enough to end up in the papers for how much she loved Halloween. 

Christine: That’s right. She was hosting a Halloween party. What did you do? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Harry? 

Em: Show me the paper. Show me the article. I’ll care then. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Yeah, then I’ll care. 

Em: Yeah. How– By the way, update on your toilet flooding? 

Christine: Oh my gosh. We finally got new toilets in. It took like three days. I– It’s just like everything is just a project, you know, in life. It doesn’t even mean ’cause I have a house. I just mean like everything– There’s always a hiccup, right? It’s like, “Oh-kay.” Uh, but it’s fine. It was all handled. Blaise handled it. Thank god. Um, new toilet. Brand new toilets, and they are beautiful. 

Em: Perfect. 

Christine: But my stepdad had to come over with like a dolly and like ratchet strap it– the toilets to the dolly and carry them upstair– I mean, it was like a– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: It was a whole to-do. Anyway. 

Em: You know, there’s nobody I would trust more with a ratchet strap than Tim. 

Christine: There’s no other person. 

Em: That man is a walking ratchet strap, I think. 

Christine: That’s correct. And totally meant lovingly, I think. 

Em: Yeah, that would be a weird insult. 

Christine: It would be. It would be. 

Em: Although ratchet is like one of the worst words to ever come out of my mouth. 

Christine: That’s true. That is a, that is a word that like I’ve tried to really distance myself from. [chuckles] 

Em: [laughs] Okay, well– 

Christine: It’s like when they say like, “Oh, ratchet strap, caulk,” for the window. 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: And I’m like, “Why are all the words so dirty?” You know? 

Em: I mean, I feel like caulk is an easy one because men, uh, are in construction– 

Christine: For sure. 

Em: –and they were like, “Oh, let’s get the dick glue out,” you know? 

Christine: “Let’s put my caulk on it.” [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Like something gross. 

Christine: “Here, let me just get my caulk out real quick.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] You know, they ate it up. And they were like– 

Christine: Ah! 

Em: –“Well, obviously that’s what it’s called now.” Um, anyway, I don’t even know if that was a full circle. It felt like a bit of a full– 

Christine: Slag pot? 

Em: Hm? 

Christine: Slag pot? 

Em: S– Again, hm? 

Christine: Coke? 

Em: What are you talking about? 

Christine: These are terms for met– in metallurgy, in the field of metallurgy. 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: I come from a fine and distinguished line of one metallurgy engineer. 

Em: [laughs] I thought we were just saying words. Uh, I guess that’s what this whole podcast is, just saying words. 

Christine: We have like a whole episode about slag pots, but it was like episode six– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –but I think it lives so strongly in my memory that I assume you’re always thinking about it also. 

Em: Did you mean to actually guess the accurate number? I’m pretty sure it was episode six. 

Christine: That’s upsetting to me ’cause that means subconsciously I probably knew. 

Em: The sloss furnaces is what you’re talking about. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s the one. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. And that was where I found out– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –your dad was in metallurgy or something. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said, “There’s something about a slag pot,” and then my dad wrote this long email to explain what slag pots are. And we were like– But he made up a fake email address called, “And that’s why I don’t drink.” 

Em: Right, right. 

Christine: And he sent– It’s like this whole saga. And he still– Like I just still– 

Em: What lore. 

Christine: –don’t really understand what happened. 

Em: Well, I– Maybe that’s a, a mystery that we’re not supposed to know, Christine. 

Christine: Maybe that’s for therapy next week. 

Em: I dare to ask what and why do you drink? 

Christine: Oh, jeez. Well, you know what I drink ’cause you already guessed it. 

Em: Your citrusy notes. 

Christine: My citrusy IPA. Um, I had therapy this morning, and I’m just really thankful for my therapist and all the good therapists out there who are doing the work and going to their own therapy and like– Oh my gosh, it just sounds like a lot to go through your own journey and then to put that aside and like help clients. So I don’t know. Today, I just felt especially thankful for my therapist, and she was actually– She reminded me– She was the first person I told when I was pregnant– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –in October bec– before Blaise because I found out that night before, and then I went to therapy the next morning, and Blaise [chuckles] had already brought Leona to school. And I was like, “I don’t know who else to tell, so I’m gonna tell you.” So there– I don’t know. She’s just a very– I just, uh– I’m just really thankful for her. So for all the therapists out there, all the– any sort of psych or brain-related or– I mean, anything in this vein, I’m just like so, um, in awe of you. Thank you for what you do. Um, didn’t necessarily have like a huge breakthrough today, but just felt like more sturdy afterward, you know. 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: Yeah. What about you? What do you drink? 

Em: Um, I drink leftover Crystal Light. 

Christine: Ooh, yum. [chuckles] 

Em: [chuckles] And, uh, I drink because I ordered a lot of things to the house, and none of them have appeared yet, and I’m kind of concerned. Um– 

Christine: Is one of them the plaque or has that arrived already? 

Em: No, the plaque has been here. Um– 

Christine: Oh, okay. Okay. 

Em: No, they were just like little things, but I’m just aware that– I was like, “I ordered a lot of things, and they’re not here–“ 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: “–and I don’t know what’s going on.” And they were from different companies, so I’m like, what’s going on with the mail right now? 

Christine: Hmm. 

Em: Just feels like they should have appeared by now. Maybe as soon as like we’re s– I finish the sentence, they’ll all just be in a pile. 

Christine: Just all of a sudden knocking and barking and– Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. But two days ago, I started getting nervous, and now I’m like, “Hm, I–” 

Christine: Two days later is a little bit concerning if like multiple things– So is there anything particularly exciting in these packages or just like you’re just concerned in general? 

Em: I don’t think there’s anything particularly exciting, which is helpful because I’m like well at least I– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –you know, don’t miss it. 

Christine: Not like counting down, yeah. 

Em: But it was like just– It was just little things, and I, um, I got them from– I don’t want to like poo-poo on small businesses at all, but the– I got all of them from those places, and they’re– I’m– I think it’s a mail situation, not the business situation, but I was like, “Aw, man I was really excited to like support local business, and now none of it’s here.” And I’m like [groans]. 

Christine: “Now look what they did.” 

Em: I was like, “Now they ruined it!” No. 

Christine: [laughs] “Now look what they’ve done.” 

Em: Um, no, I’m sure there’s just a, a, a kerfuffle. If I don’t get anything by today, I’m gonna really start panicking, but I’ve been following the, the tracking number and like it’s definitely the mail, the mail service because like [chuckles] what– the last time I looked, it was like in– an hour from me, and then I looked last night in the middle of the night, and it was in Louisiana, and I was like, “Oh, that for sure–“ 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: “–got sent to the wrong place.” 

Christine: So LA, LA. 

Em: Yeah. Yes, that has to be it. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, but yeah, so it was– I think it was just a mixup, and now I’m waiting for it to come back. But it started in Jersey, and then it came all the way here, then it went all the way back to Louisiana. 

Christine: Oh, you hate to see that. 

Em: [sighs] So I’m hoping it does arrive. I’m, I’m more worried that like it got lost in transit– 

Christine: We don’t want it to get lost for good. 

Em: –and now it’s gonna get stuck there. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Anyway, anyway, that’s why I drink ’cause I just, uh, want my shit. That’s all. 

Christine: [laughs] Res– [mumbling] Leftover Crystal Light. 

Em: It’s that simple, yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] Alright. Tell me a tale. 

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Em’s Story – The Old Teller County Jail aka Cripple Creek Jail aka the Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum 

Em: I have a quick one. Um, I literally– I’ve been doing notes for this one story, Christine, for days. For days. 

Christine: This one? 

Em: No, hold on. So there was a story. 

Christine: [laughs] Don’t get ahead of yourself. 

Em: Don’t get ahead of yourself. This one, not so much. Um, no. I’ve been doing notes for this non-stop, and it has been the biggest headache of my entire life. And if I ever finish the notes and get to talk about it with you, you’ll understand why I– 

Christine: Stop. 

Em: –pan– like not panicking, but like I’m, I’m gonna have an aneurysm about this. Like this is– 

Christine: “Oh, I’m not panicking. I’m just gonna probably die.” [laughs] 

Em: This is– It’s, it’s so complicated. I can’t say too much, but it’s just so complicated and like the wording is so weird and it’s like trying to–You have to like half translate while also figure out where in the timeline this is. [sighs] 

Christine: You know, I’m so mad I don’t know what this is already. I’m like– 

Em: One day, you’ll know. 

Christine: I wanna know so bad. Well, I wanna know so bad. 

Em: And you’ll be appreciative then. But then like one of the only places I could really get a lot, a lot, a lot of information was like Astonishing Legends. But, um, but that– It was– ended up being a two-parter, and it added up to like seven hours. So then I’m like– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: But if, but if I didn’t– 

Christine: That’s a short episode. [laughs] 

Em: But if I didn’t listen to it, then I wouldn’t be doing the story justice ’cause they covered so much more information than I saw anywhere else. It’s just– It’s become a whole thing. 

Christine: Shout-out to my two favorite podcasts already. 

Em: I know. I, um– Basically, I thought I could get this done if I stayed up really late, and by like 1 in the morning, I was like, “I can’t do this tonight. Like my brain isn’t even thinking straight.” And so at 1 in the morning, I picked a new topic. [chuckles] So uh, I had to find something that did not– 

Christine: Last night? 

Em: Last night, yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god. Okay. Okay, wow. 

Em: So I started at 1. I ended around like 4. 

Christine: Which topic were you gonna do Monday if we did record? ’Cause I ended up pushing the date ’cause I’m me. 

Em: Same thi– Well, so I was gonna do the topic I’m talking about right now that was super tricky. But I was just gonna make it a two-parter and– 

Christine: Oh, okay, and get started on it or whatever. 

Em: And get started. But then I found more information. I was like, “Well, now that– part one isn’t even finished.” It was such a pain. 

Christine: I see. I see. 

Em: Um, so anyway, I found a very quick one. Um, I did do thorough research. There was just very little research to go off of, so. 

Christine: Yeah, which is sometimes nice ’cause it’s like, “Okay, at least I know I didn’t skip or, or forget anything.” 

Em: Yeah. But, so I, I don’t want anyone to think that I didn’t do solid research just ’cause I started in the middle of the night. I did do just as much research as I could on an– on any other topic. This just happened to have very little information, which was perfect ’cause it’s what I needed at 1 in the fucking morning, so. 

Christine: And sometimes that’s just when we do our finest work, you know? 

Em: I really did lock the fuck in. I was like, “I have to figure out a story now.” 

Christine: New moon in Capricorn. Okay? 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: I’ve been very into astrology lately. New moon in Capricorn, lock in. That’s the phrase. 

Em: I’m locking in. So this is the Old Teller County Jail, aka Cripple Creek Jail, aka– 

Christine: Cripple Creek Jail. 

Em: –aka the Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum. 

Christine: First of all, if you already have a cool name, like just chill, right? 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: It’s like, why do you need three of them? Like, let somebody else have a cool name for a second. Although, it is very us-coded. Like, “Let’s call it Yappy Hour and, uh, bo– After Dark– [unintelligible] After Dark.” 

Em: Every other– 

Christine: “–and everything else.” So I mean, I can’t judge. But anyway. 

Em: I, uh, I also got really frustrated when I was like, “Oh, finally not a lot of information,” and then I saw something about like Ghost Adventures being involved, and I was like, “Please don’t make me watch a whole 45-minute video right now.” 

Christine: “Please don’t.” 

Em: Um, but apparently this got a quick little shout-out in like some bonus footage that Ghost Adventures at some point put out because I think they went to Cripple Creek, which is, in general, a haunted place. 

Christine: Okay, okay. 

Em: Um, and I think there was like a, like a kind of either a B-roll, or like they mentioned that it was haunted. This– I, I didn’t look– I didn’t watch to be totally honest, but someone said it gets a mention, but it does not have its own episode. 

Christine: A historian– A Ghost Adventures historian gave you that info. 

Em: Boots on the ground journalism, yes. 

Christine: Man. I mean, that’s, that’s good work. Noble work. 

Em: Noble work, yes. So this is in Cripple Creek, Colorado. Love a triple C. 

Christine: Love it. 

Em: And in– it starts in 1890. So your house was about 23 years old. Um– 

Christine: See, that blows my mind. I’m like, “Wait, what?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “This was a new build?” [chuckles] 

Em: A whole family had like raised children that had already moved out by then. 

Christine: Oh my god, that’s so weird. 

Em: I know. Um, and the area– ’Cause every fucking time in the last couple episodes, I feel like I’ve been mentioning gold mines, and I’m not even trying to. I’m so tired of this. I’m– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Get out of here. 

Christine: I’m so tired of these gold miners. 

Em: I just keep thinking, “Oh, this one’s in a different area. Surely it can’t also be– Oh my god, it’s about gold.” 

Christine: Ev– You’re in a, you’re in a little spiral there. A little– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: –gold spiral. 

Em: I guess I’m picking out a lot of like gold rush era stories– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: –so I need to just deal with it. Um, but so 1890, the area became a literal gold mine when a cowboy– Christine, are you listening? Cowboy. 

Christine: Uh, very closely. 

Em: Um, he discovered lots of gold in the water. 

Christine: Yeah, he did. 

Em: And now he’s a rich cowboy. Christine, are you listening? Rich cowboy. 

Christine: I’m already gone. I’m logging it. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Well, I’m logging out or whatever my beer told me to do. 

Em: I, I have a friend at, uh, the dog park who’s from Wyoming, and he– Well, I think a cowboy is exactly, uh, what we’re, what we’re hoping he finds. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Oh, intriguing. Yep. Got it. 

Em: I hope. I hope. And, and it’s become a bit of a thing where a bunch of my friends at the dog park, their type is cowboy. It’s very weird. 

Christine: J-just saying, there, there’re– 

Em: And by the way, a lot of people are from Wyoming. Like I’ve met like three– 

Christine: That’s cowboy country. Well, go back to Wyoming. That is where the cowboys are. 

Em: I– Yeah. So maybe that’s why they all want a cowboy. But I’ve met, I’ve met three people in the last like week from Wyoming. 

Christine: Have they met each other? ’Cause I think they all– 

Em: Two of them have met each other, and then there was another, and I was like, “I gotta get you involved in this Wyoming group.” 

Christine: You gotta get ‘em in a group. 

Em: I was like, “What the hell are you all doing here?” Anyway, one of them– 

Christine: So random. 

Em: –obsessed with cowboys, and I think about you every time. 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: Anyway, uh, where were we? This hot cowboy, I assume, and he’s rich. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: He discovered a lot of gold in the water and within a few years the– Well, not even a few years, within one year, the town’s population grew to an, an absurd number, but every source had a different answer. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: But an absurd number. One source literally fucking said, “the town population went from 15 to 37,000 overnight,” and I went– 

Christine: Okay, okay, okay. 

Em: –“No, it did not. No, it did not.” 

Christine: Words mean something. You know what I mean? 

Em: [laughs] Um, the area became known as “the Greatest Gold Camp on Earth.” 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: Interesting. And per usual, um, that means with more people coming in very quickly, seemingly overnight, according to some sources, that means more bad guys started appearing in town because– 

Christine: Mm. That’s how it goes. 

Em: Of course. So there needed to be a new jail. Um, the rickety local jail that was made of like wood slabs, I think– It was like literally imagine an old western movie and the– 

Christine: Where you can like walk out of the jail– 

Em: Yeah– 

Christine: If you try hard enough? 

Em: –it’s like the jail is the outhouse. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Um, I– I’m assum– especially if there was– 

Christine: The keys are like hanging right there, and you’ve gotta like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –use a little hook to get the key. [laughs] 

Em: Especially if there was a, um– like if only 15 people were in town. 

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah, it’s like you only use it for that one guy, you know? 

Em: Yeah. You like check in to go to jail and– 

Christine: He just sleeps in there, and then it’s like good for the day. 

Em: Yeah, exactly. Um, so this rickety old jail was built originally, uh, to hold the amount of people that should have been in town, but then after this gold rush, a new, uh, jail had to be built, um, because it just couldn’t hold more than one person probably. So a new jail needed to be built. They were already talking about it. A couple years into this problem, two different fires blew through town, ended up knocking down the previous jail, and they were like, “Well, that’s a sign. Let’s finally build this thing.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: So in 1901, they built a new, more fireproof than fucking wood, um, brick jail, and they called it– 

Christine: There we go. 

Em: –Teller County Jail. And I’m a little confused about the timeline. I feel like at some point they actually built a, um, a jail i– before this one and then that one didn’t work out, so this is the second try at a rebuild. I’m a little confused about that, but who cares? Um, it’s called the Teller County Jail, and it housed folks awaiting trial, um, right across the street, uh, at the courthouse. Uh, it housed people with– dealing with smaller crimes. It was a stopover jail for people who were being transferred to prison and mental facilities. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, the greater prison in the area– or the greater– one of them, the– either the greater prison or, um, institution that people were being sent to was actually also in Wyoming. So the cowboys and the Wyoming people are getting a lot of play in this episode so far. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: The common crimes for people who would actually go to this jail to stay at this jail for their entire sentence, um, it was mainly for sex work. It was mainly for larceny. It was mainly for something gambling-related, like cheating at cards– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –or just fucking gambling. Like I feel like that’s just two counts immediately. Um, being drunk and– 

Christine: I don’t know. Back then gambling was just a fun hobby they all did. 

Em: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I’m wrong. 

Christine: Blackjack and poke– I don’t know. What the hell do I know? 

Em: A lot. Um, being– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: [chuckles] –being drunk in public was a big one. Um, so it was all like kind of silly things that I would imagine– 

Christine: [chuckles] Silly little things. 

Em: I would imagine in the grand scheme of jails, I would feel safer in this one– 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: –maybe than others. 

Christine: It’s– We don’t have necessarily hardened homicidal maniacs in there. Yeah. 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They were all just a little drunk or a little horny. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, the longest sentence that anyone served here was one year. And, uh, fun fact, world heavyweight boxing champion, I know you love them, Jack Dempsey, uh, stayed here for a while– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –for petty larceny. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: He’s, I think, their most notable alum. So– 

Christine: Okay, yeah. I mean, even I know that name. 

Em: Really? 

Christine: Jack Dempsey? Yeah. But that’s like probably the only– If you had said like– 

Em: Anyone else? 

Christine: “name a world heavyweight, I would have been like, ‘I don’t know. Muhammad Ali.’” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I have no idea. 

Em: I did not know this name. But multiple sources were like, “Jack Dempsey was here,” and I’m like, “Okay, great.” 

Christine: Yeah, I know about that guy. 

Em: [chuckles] See? And you were like, “What do I know?” You know Jack Dempsey. 

Christine: I know about Jack Dempsey in a very, very minimal way. 

Em: Well, uh, so he was there. And when they did– So they, they built this thing, as you know, 1901. It cost $25,000. I’m assuming that’s $25,000 of 1901 money, so, of course– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –I did the math for you, and that’s pretty much $1 million dollars today. 

Christine: Woof. Okay. 

Em: It was considered, of course, state-of-the-art. They all are. Um– 

Christine: Well, they’ve got gold in the water, you know. At first I was like, “That’s a lot of money.” But then I’m like, “Well, but also they’re finding like so much gold.” I’m like, “Whoever is financing this better have like some access–“ 

Em: That's a great point. 

Christine: “–to this gold they’re finding.” 

Em: That’s a great fucking point, Christine. I hadn’t even thought about that. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, man. 

Em: But, uh, one of the reasons it was– 

Christine: Imagine how stupid you would feel though if you were one of the first 15 people to live there and then all of a sudden the gold rush started, and you were like, “Wait, what? There was gold here?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You know, like that would suck. 

Em: You could just watch people like right through the window like finding gold. 

Christine: And you’re like, “That’s my backyard. Get the fuck out of here.” Yeah. 

Em: I, I’d be “shawshanking” with like a spoon just to find gold, not even to escape. I’d be like– 

Christine: I would be so stupid like looking, yeah, in my own house– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –and they’d be like, “It’s in the river, dummy.” 

Em: Well, uh, the reason it was considered state-of-the-art is because, uh, it had electricity. It was 1901. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And it had indoor plumbing, but that’s kind of a big, bold, brave thing to say because– 

Christine: Yeah, so did I like a week ago, so good luck. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Feel like it doesn’t mean– 

Em: And you have electricity. You’re no better than a 1901 jail in Wyoming or Colorado. 

Christine: That’s exac– You know what I’m always saying– That’s what’s on my plaque out front. 

Em: It just– Just a couple of cowboys trying to make it work. 

Christine: No better than a Wyoming prison in this place. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] They had indoor plumbing. However, um, big words because they did have– they had a shower and a toilet, but they had [emphasized] a shower and [emphasized] a toilet. 

Christine: Mm, yeah. 

Em: In the whole jail. And the– 

Christine: A toilet? Oy. 

Em: And it was upstairs, which was in the women’s ward, and I think it was like reserved specifically for women. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So if you were a guy, forget it. 

Christine: Sorry. 

Em: Female privilege, am I right? 

Christine: That’s right. We’re always just putting them down, you know. 

Em: [chuckles] Um, so they, I guess, could get away with saying, “we have indoor plumbing,” but it was like one pipe in their walls. 

Christine: Technicality. 

Em: So for the rest of the jail, it was in total 14 cells. It was like not a very big jail. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, but they try to say in all the sources, “it was built to house over 100 people,” or “to house up to 100 people,” but if you do the math, it’s like 84. Um– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –because it was 14 cells, and I don’t even know if we’re including like the– There was a matron, who was like the female guard, but she, I think, had to like fucking live there. So she had one of the cells, I think. Um– 

Christine: Oh my lord. 

Em: There was a solitary confinement cell. So that’s 2 of the 12 where I don’t even think you can put multiple people in. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, but okay, let’s, let’s assume 14 cells that could fill everybody. And at the time, um, they were able to put six people into each cell. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: They were very small cells. They were 6 ½ by 9 feet for six people. So they didn’t have room for the beds– 

Christine: I’m looking at my rug, which I think is like nine by six. 

Em: Yeah, it was a– It was insane. 

Christine: That’s disturbing. Yeah. 

Em: It’s a cage. It’s a full– just a cage. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, uh, yeah, that’s actually a good way to put it. The average, um, rug in a house, I think, is five by seven or something. 

Christine: Yeah. So like six by nine is like slightly bigger. Yeah. That’s, that’s like an alarming way to– ’Cause then you can kind of like see it visually, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. I, um– The other weird thing about it is because it was so small, in no way could you fit six beds in there– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –they gave them hammocks attached to the ceiling. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: And so– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And they’re hanging from the ceiling. You can’t like unhook it and then put it over here during the day. So you’re standing in a 6 ½ by 9 room with six sheets hanging from the ceiling, but you just have to– 

Christine: Yeah, so like vertically, you don’t even have room, right. 

Em: It’s like a haunted house. You’re just constantly moving those stupid things out of the way. 

Christine: Stupid body bags in those haunted houses. Yeah. 

Em: At that point, you might as well just constantly be lying in that hammock, and sometimes, someone is standing up to stretch their legs. Like it’s just atrophy. 

Christine: And their head like hits you in the butt. 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, I guess. 

Christine: Like I feel like that would be so frustrating. 

Em: I think it was either three rows of two layers of hammocks or two rows of– two layers– three layers of two rows, something like that. 

Christine: That’s just nuts. 

Em: Um, and they also– Because, remember, there’s only one toilet, and it’s meant for the women, they got one chamber pot for six people. 

Christine: Ooh… ‘kay. 

Em: So it was 1901, so that was totally fine, and it’s the old Wild West, and they could just get away with that shit, I guess. 

Christine: I guess so. 

Em: Um, there were two floors in the jail. The bottom floor was the men’s ward, and there was ten cells down there. The four cells upstairs, um, were for the women and children, um, and a solitary confinement cell. So I don’t know if that’s three for the women and one. I don’t know if that’s one solitary confinement– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –one for the, the matron guard, and then only two for the women and children. I don’t fucking know. But there’s four cells upstairs. Speaking of the kids, because this was a time where if you were a woman and went to jail and you were a mother, you were still expected to mother on the clock in jail. 

Christine: It’s your jo– It’s your– It’s not your job. It’s your duty. [chuckles] 

Em: Well, where else are you gonna put the kid? With a fucking va– like cowboy? 

Christine: I know. 

Em: Like a Wild West cowboy? 

Christine: Oof. [sighs] 

Em: Um, so the first kid that stayed here was a four-year-old– 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: –who by the way didn’t even have parents. It was because– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –this kid got lost in town and had no contact info for his family, didn’t know where to go, and so he was just a ward of the state. So they just– 

Christine: A four-year-old. 

Em: –put him there– 

Christine: Oy. Yeah, that hurts. 

Em: –I guess until someone came and picked him up like lost and found. I don’t fucking know. 

Christine: So sad. And they’re like, “Let’s put you in prison, son.” 

Em: Yeah. Um, daycare. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Then, uh, the youngest kid that was there was 18 months old– 

Christine: Mm! 

Em: –who was living there with their incarcerated mom. So the jail was, um– Oh, like I said– Okay. It was designed to ha– hold six people per cell, but when regulations changed where they were like, “This is fucking not sanitary and abusive.” And by the way, remember, this is “state-of-the-art,” and it was known to be like the most sanitary jail that had been built yet. 

Christine: Ooh, eugh. 

Em: So it’s like, what were the others like? 

Christine: Yeah, I don’t wanna know. You know, it’s like that’s just really makes it so much worse somehow. 

Em: Is it just because like their floor had concrete and not dirt or something? Like what are you talking about? 

Christine: Is it like ’cause they were sleeping in hammocks they were claiming– Like who knows? Yeah. 

Em: ’Cause– Yeah. Um– 

Christine: ’Cause they had [emphasized] a toilet, probably gave them points even though it was one toilet, you know. 

Em: They had no, no sinks, no showers. It was just a chamberpot. 

Christine: It’s not like this toilet worked well. Let’s be real. Okay? 

Em: You know it didn’t. 

Christine: Like ever. 

Em: I bet they flushed it one time to celebrate that they had a toilet, and then it broke, and they went, “Well.” 

Christine: And then it was like, “Now it overflows, and it’s somebody else’s job.” 

Em: 100%. Uh, so the regulations eventually caught on, and they were like, uh, “We have to change the rules if this is what, uh, the world’s–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: “– greatest sanitary jail looks like.” Um, “And also we can’t have people sleeping in fucking hammocks six at a time on a rug-sized cage.” So they– 

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles] 

Em: –installed wooden– They installed one wooden bunk per cell, and they made the cells for only one person could– only one person could stay in them, not six. 

Christine: Whoa. So you went from six person cell to like– Oh, this is your solo. You get a private room. 

Em: Yeah. But also still probably no toilet. I’m not sure on the toilet situation. 

Christine: And you’re in prison, but like– Okay. 

Em: [chuckles] And you’re in prison. 

Christine: So it went from six to one per cell? Wow. 

Em: But the irony is that they built this place because the one that existed back when the gold rush started was so small they couldn’t fit anyone in there. 

Christine: Right. So what’s the point now? 

Em: And, and now they’ve got this “big,” quote, “bigger” one that can, quote, “hold a hundred people” and now can only hold up to like 15 people. So it’s like back to square one. 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: Um, and no one even mentions that, by the way. That’s just an observation I’ve made where I’m like, “So only 15 people can stay here at a time?” 

Christine: Well, it’s like– 

Em: That’s like– You might as well have kept the old wooden one. 

Christine: And you clearly had– Yeah, ’cause you clearly had need for– not need. Okay, that’s a strong word, but like you clearly thought you had need for a big one because you were filling up the hammocks. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So now like what’s going on? Where are the rest of them going? 

Em: Great point. I bet they were transferred to that Wyoming prison. 

Christine: Probably true. 

Em: Um, so yeah, ironically, the jail now could only hold as much as probably the original shack could. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, so also I just wanted to mention the solitary confinement cell had no light shining through the– It had a solid metal door. It was the only cell that had a solid metal door. The rest of them just had like classic bars. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So they at least had like circulation and light and like the ability to see others. Um– 

Christine: That’s nice. 

Em: –the catwalk on the second floor was very flimsy. It was known to be incredibly flimsy. 

Christine: Ugh. 

Em: It only had one single thin railing that was– 

Christine: That freaks me out really. Those catwalks in, in those old jails. Uh-uh. 

Em: Especially when it’s held together by like barely no parts. It was– It– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –seemed very easy to jump off of if you were in that mindset. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, it also seemed very easy to push someone off. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, it was certainly easy to fall. In fact, one person did fall and died. Um, and a lot of people who were here, like I said, were in the middle of being transferred to a worse prison, which meant they were more violent. So even though the people who were staying long sentences here were probably like safe to have as cellmates, there were also some dangerous people coming through and– 

Christine: Like coming through– Okay. 

Em: And that catwalk was also probably, um, a wonderful plan if they wanted to hurt somebody or if they wanted to end it at all ’cause if they’re about to go to a worse prison where maybe something worse is gonna happen to them, maybe this is their opportunity. So the catwalk just screams eerie and– 

Christine: It’s just like not– 

Em: –dark intentions. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Not safe. Not safe. 

Em: So one, um– like I said, one inmate did definitely die on the catwalk by either falling or being pushed. We don’t know. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: There is a basement that– I guess in the basement, there’s a room called the Ice Room because it was ice storage. Um, but it was basically a temporary morgue as well because it was cold. 

Christine: Oh, of course. 

Em: And under the staircase was actually another room. I only saw this on one source. So I, I hope I’m– I hope this is true. I– Actually, I hope it’s not true because it’s fucking horrifying. But under the st– 

Christine: “I hope I’m lying to all of you right now.” [chuckles] 

Em: [chuckles] I hope– “Big breaking news. This is not real.” Um, under the staircase, a small room was found and is thought to be where inmates would be used, um, to give confessions under duress. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: Um, for some reason– I think it was like right above the boiler or something because I saw on this one source that they think, um, prisoners would get stuck in there or put in there when it was really hot to like basically steam them into confessions. 

Christine: Oh god. Okay. 

Em: Like hot boxing, but not in the fun way. Um– 

Christine: And then you’re in the basement in the ice room if you’re– Okay. Whoa. Okay. 

Em: And then if you get steamed too much, you end up in the Ice Room, yeah. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, so in the ‘90s, this place closed. In the 1990s, this place closed, so we were alive when this closed. Um, and by the way, it– 

Christine: That’s wild. 

Em: –it would have stayed open– ’Cause they built this thing to last, so they never had to build another jail, ironically, and then they probably needed to because it was so small. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: But the, um– They built it to last, and that was the m– the plan, but the only reason they ended up having to close was because they needed a rec yard, and I guess either couldn’t afford it or didn’t have space for it. But that was the only reason. They just didn’t have a rec yard. Otherwise, it was still up to standard. 

Christine: Interesting. So I mean, I’m glad they found something to kind of shut it down like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –it needed to be, sounds like. 

Em: And, and every jail I’ve covered, it’s like it– oh, it ends up being decommissioned or closed because of overpopulation or because it’s not sanitary anymore– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: –or the conditions are poor. But like it’s– This was totally fine. They were just like, “You need a yard.” And they were like, “Well, we don’t have that,” and they’re like, “Well, that’s the new regulation, so I guess you’re closing.” 

Christine: “But have you seen our toilet? It worked one time.” 

Em: “But have you seen our one toilet? Have you seen it?” Um, in 2007, uh, it reopened. So from the ‘90s to the early 2000s, in that like ten year span, it was closed. It reopened as the Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –open, open year-round, $5 admission for adults. 

Christine: Love it. 

Em: And the old jailer’s office– You know I love this. The old jailer’s office– 

Christine: Yep. 

Em: –is now a gift shop. Um– 

Christine: Okay. I love it. 

Em: The museum obviously has tours, uh, ghost tours, I’m assuming as well. And lots of the furniture in there, um, and like the decor, there’s– it’s all original from the jail, which is super eerie that there’s like– Like the height markers when people would get processed is still there. 

Christine: Ooh, yeah. 

Em: Um, drawings on the wall from inmates are still there. 

Christine: Well, like if you think it would close in the ‘90s and then 20 years later, 10 years later, it was made into a museum. That’s pretty– Yeah, like 10, 15 years. That’s wild. That’s like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –closing and being like, “Alright, I’m gonna start pl– We just closed this prison, and I’m gonna start plans to set it up as a–“ I mean, it’s pretty wild. Like if you had been housed there or been imprisoned there in like the ‘80s– 

Em: I fe– 

Christine: –or– I– It just must be so weird to be like, “Oh, now it’s a museum.” 

Em: I feel like a lot of times I’ve been t– on like jail ghost tours or jail history tours, and if it closed recently, then like inmates come on the tour. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. 

Em: It’s– 

Christine: That happened on Alcatraz where they have people come. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I mean, that’s an extreme example, but yeah, I’ve seen that as well. That’s a good point. 

Em: I can’t imagine the– Talking about like what therapists do for us, I can’t imagine psychologically what it’s like to see like your hell being an attraction. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, yeah. 

Em: And also being able to just– And the, the concept of getting to be free in the space where you had no freedom. 

Christine: Yeah, but also being charged $5 and being like, “Really?” 

Em: Right. [chuckles] 

Christine: “’Cause I got in, I got in free last time.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Just sayin’.” 

Em: Now, Christine, if you did stand-up, that is a punchy one right there. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: That’s a good one. 

Christine: I just do sit-down. You know what I mean? 

Em: I– [sighs] 

Christine: Now, that’s a dad joke. [laughs] 

Em: You’re killing it. Um, but I, I would imagine if this closed in the ‘90s, there are a lot of people who’ve probably gone in that were once there and– 

Christine: Yeah, you’d think. 

Em: They’re like, “Oh, there’s that fucking toilet again. You can’t imagine what we used to say about that thing.” Or, “Oh, there– That– Those, those are the, the hook holes where the hammocks used to be. I used to sleep on this hammock.” 

Christine: “Oh, those are J– Good old Jimmy McGee used to have night terrors up there.” 

Em: [chuckles] You know, there is one room that they still have the hammocks showing. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Like they left, they left it so that way you could see what the original inmates had to deal with. 

Christine: ’Cause I– it is a curiosity. Like it’s like, “What do you mean ‘hammocks’?” Okay. 

Em: I mean, yeah, it’s a totally cur– This, this– The solitary confinement cell you can walk in and sit in, you know– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and like– And again, I– Imagine being someone who was like incarcerated there and you’re like– 

Christine: Yeah. [sighs] 

Em: You take someone with you, and they’re like, “Let’s go in the solitary confinement cell,” and they’re like, “Let’s not actually.” Um– 

Christine: “Let’s– How about we don’t, you know?” 

Em: “Last time was bad for me.” Um– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: So okay. As for the ghosts, um, a lot of sounds. We’re hearing voices. A lot of EVPs. There was, uh, some websites that just had the EVPs ready for you to listen to if you wanted. 

Christine: That feels like a very jail thing. Is that weird? I don’t know. I feel like– 

Em: I agree. 

Christine: –there’s so many EVPs in jails, and I wonder if it’s like, oh, that was one of the only modes of communication. Like you couldn’t necessarily touch anyone– 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: –’cause you’re in the– I mean, you know, theoretically, when you’re alive, but– I don’t know. It just always strikes me that there are so many like very clear EVPs from jails. 

Em: You are totally right. I agree. And I– A part of me feels like it’s because jails are echoey. 

Christine: That’s true, too. Like you would hear everything. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So like even if it’s someone upstairs– That’s a good point. Like it’s not like in a house where everyone’s kind of privately like– 

Em: Locked away– 

Christine: –sequestered. 

Em: –tucked away. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: And I wonder if it’s because, um, uh– I don’t know if hauntings are– if this is like, oh, this is, um, repetitive from something that actually happened in history or– 

Christine: Like residual versus– 

Em: –or if this is– if we’re being haunted by someone’s memory, so all they– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –all they remember are the sounds. I don’t know. Um– 

Christine: Yeah. Wow. Ooh, “haunted by their memory.” Oh, that’s creepy. I hadn’t thought of that. 

Em: [blows a kiss] 

Christine: Oh, beautiful. 

Em: Now you can fall asleep nicely tonight. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah– 

Em: Um– 

Christine: –I’m sure I will. 

Em: –so you can hear voices. You hear EVPs. There’s a lot of heavy breathing. Yuck. 

Christine: Oh, cool. [chuckles] 

Em: Um, door slams, keys jingling. The most popular is, um, footsteps pacing from– like, like in a way where you can hear the pattern of, of, of a, of a path being walked like– 

Christine: Ooh, like patrolling sort of? 

Em: Like patrolling. So like you could– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: If you’re standing in a hall, you can hear the footsteps coming towards you and then kind of going away as if it walked past you– 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: –and then eventually hearing it build back up to you. Like– 

Christine: No. 

Em: Yuck-o. Um, most of the heavy breathing, by the way, and also if you run into a cold spot, that happens on the catwalk, which– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –part of me is like, “Do they let people stay on that fucking catwalk?” That can’t be real. 

Christine: I guess so. 

Em: I don’t know. Maybe it’s just near it. Um, but one employee heard um, speaking of sounds, they heard an invisible stack of papers drop on the floor near them, which– 

Christine: That's so specific. [chuckles] 

Em: So specific and so jarring. Because that’s not just a slam, that’s a slam and a scatter. And it’s– 

Christine: And then you hear like [mimics the swishing sound of sheets of paper scattering]. Yeah. 

Em: Eugh. 

Christine: Oh, how weird. ’Cause like you wouldn’t say that unless you really were like, “No, that’s what that was.” Like that– 

Em: Yeah, “I, I accidentally bumped into a stack of papers.” Yeah. 

Christine: You’d say like a heavy object, but like a stack of papers– Yeah, that’s quite a specific sound. Yeesh. 

Em: And he never found anything. He just knows that that was the sound he heard. 

Christine: Weird. 

Em: Um, in the men’s ward in those cells, people see, um, dark masses moving around, especially in the back. 

Christine: Yeesh. 

Em: Um, but they see dark shadows and masses dancing around in there. And in the women’s section, especially in the matron or female guard’s room, people say that they still feel someone monitoring the area. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: A few people have actually sworn that they’ve seen the full-bodied apparition of Rosie, who was the matron of the ward. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, she’s said to still be seen in her room. She’s also seen upstairs like looking down to you. 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: Um, also in her room, people will find items just sitting on her bed that shouldn’t be in the jail and they just appear. Um, so one person actually found marbles sitting in the bed. 

Christine: [gasps] Confiscated. She confiscated them. 

Em: Oh, that’s an interesting take. My thought was that like because that was also where the kids lived, so maybe– they– was like kid toys. 

Christine: Ohh, that could be. 

Em: But you’re right. They would also gamble with marbles. So maybe– 

Christine: So my first gut instinct was, “Oh my god, she’s still confiscating shit.” But– 

Em: That's funny though. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: If you lose your stuff, you should go like look in her room. 

Christine: I bet you. Yeah. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: She's like, “Who told you you could have a lip gloss in here?” 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. Um– 

Christine: “Give me that.” 

Em: “I’m pretty sure that this is my Birkin, so.” 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. “Who allowed th– This is now confiscated material. Sorry, my Birkin bag.” 

Em: “No, no, no. Don’t, don’t you think–“ 

Christine: “With the lip gloss in it and the marbles.” [laughs] 

Em: “You– Not to gaslight you, but I actually– You didn’t walk in here with your– with those Jimmy Choos. Those are mine.” Um– 

Christine: “incorrect. Now go back on the catwalk without your Jimmy Choos on.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Um, but apparently– 

Christine: Well, who goes to a fucking prison with Jimmy Choos and a Birkin bag? 

Em: [laughs] And a Birkin bag? 

Christine: [laughs] What? 

Em: I feel like it’s like an episode of The Kardashians. You’re like, “Oh my god, so cute.” 

Christine: That feels like a weird pull that I would make from like my minimal understanding of luxury goods, which is probably what just happened. 

Em: [laughs] That is what happened. 

Christine: Like we’re just like we know those names that– 

Em: My brain was filing through the rolodex of like, “What’s a–“ 

Christine: I like it. 

Em: “What’s a crazy brand?” 

Christine: Yeah, it’s good. 

Em: So, um, yeah, one person actually said that they have seen Rosie, and she told them in some way that she is still watching over her post. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Okay, she takes it seriously. 

Em: Very seriously. And a male officer has also been seen through the jail, mainly, um, from windows, watching people. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And he also has been seen trying to come into the building after hours as if he like left something in there. One time, an employee actually saw him either standing outside, uh, waiting to be let in or was walking in and trying to get to the door, but they thought it was a tourist. And they had been closing up for the night, so she walked outside to say, “Sorry, we’re closed,” and the guy vanished. 

Christine: Imagine being like him and being like, “I’m literally going back to my office,” and they’re like, “We’re closed.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like, “What?” 

Em: I feel like he didn’t even hear what she had to say. He just vanished through her and went, “Get out of my way. I’m going–“ 

Christine: Yeah, like– 

Em: “–going to my fucking job.” 

Christine: –“I, I’ve heard that one before.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] When the employee later described him to the rest of the staff, they were able to like confirm that that was the jailer– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –that they’d either also seen or knew about. 

Christine: I’ll be honest, I don’t love that he’s coming back at night to go into the jail. I’m like, what is he up to? And why? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Not only that, like– ’Cause I’m like, “Okay, yeah, you forgot something.” Why is that replaying like repeatedly? Like that just feels– 

Em: Great point. 

Christine: Like what’s the energy of this that he’s coming back in repeatedly? Like what was he doing? What was he up to? 

Em: I also– Like I don’t– I didn’t see anything about this, and I feel like it would have made news, so because I don’t know about it, I’m assuming it did not happen. But my guess would be like maybe that’s like an inmate killed him or something. Like he went in, and this is like his last moment. 

Christine: That was like the final moments. 

Em: But– 

Christine: And he’s like, “Get out of my way, boy.” 

Em: [chuckles] But again, there was– there’s no like no news or information that something happened like that, so I, I don’t know. 

Christine: Maybe he just always came back at night. 

Em: Maybe he was just as committed to his job as Rosie, and he was like, “I need to be here.” 

Christine: They need to get a hobby is what I say. 

Em: Maybe they were dating. 

Christine: Have you tried marbles? Ohh! See? That’s what I’m saying. There’s something more to that. You wouldn’t just keep repeating as a ghost coming back every– Like that’s– just something’s up there. There’s something emotive. 

Em: If she, if she had to stay there, which I don’t even know if that’s true, but it sounds like if she had her own fucking cell basically– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –it sounds like she lived there, but maybe they turned it into an office or something. 

Christine: Well, she had that Birkin bag– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –and he was probably like, “That’s hot. That’s a hottie right there.” 

Em: He was into feet, and she was in those Jimmy Choos. I don’t know. 

Christine: What– How can you say no? 

Em: Um, but that would be a fun little tale as old as time where like they’re still in love in the afterlife. 

Christine: I’m saying. 

Em: Still checking in with each other. 

Christine: No wonder they’re so “committed to their jobs.” 

Em: Yeah, no wonder she’s just always there. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: So devoted to the task. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] Um, I’ll tell you about it in– during Yappy Hour. I have some– I have an add-on, but it’ll take us way far off. 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: Children have also been seen in the jail, which is very sad. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: But they’ve been seen upstairs, looking out of windows. Um, I’m sure that they are some of the voices people hear or the footsteps. People also see lights on in the building, um, even though apparently– I think there’s no electricity in parts of the prison anymore. 

Christine: Ooh, that’s creepy. That’s not cool. 

Em: I don’t know if I can totally believe that if there’s a gift shop in there. 

Christine: That’s true, and like presumably cash registers and such. 

Em: Right, right. 

Christine: It’s a museum. 

Em: But I do know that people see lights in the building when there should not be lights. 

Christine: It’s not good. Like if I were passing a jail, electricity or not, and the lights turn on in one of the cells and it’s nighttime and I know nobody’s there, like– 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: No. 

Em: Doors in the building will fly open on their own. I, I a lo– saw that everywhere, so I’m assuming this is something people have seen. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: One time, a Bible and rosary appeared in the basement, and nobody knew whose it was. Yuck. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: And a– the solitary confinement cell gives off really intense energy that makes people feel like they need to escape and that someone is holding them hostage in there or that they– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: –that someone is standing there ready to slam the door in their face and lock them in. 

Christine: No wonder that like the doors slam open if that’s the energy there. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like, “Get me out,” you know? Yeah. 

Em: That’s a great point, yeah. Or maybe there was a jailbreak. There were a few jailbreaks there. So maybe this is like– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –energy from that. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Anyway, that is the Cripple Creek Jail, aka– 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: –the Old Teller County Jail aka the Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum. 

Christine: That was really good, Em, for– especially for a last minute. Damn. 

Em: [chuckles] Not my first rodeo. 

Christine: [chuckles] Damn, dude. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: No comment on– for both of us. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: Um, wow. Well, uh, I’ll be right back, ‘cause I have to pee– 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: –and plug my light in and, uh, just like, just like give my toilet– 

Em: A reset. 

Christine: –a word of gratitude to say, “Thank you for being here and for working today, I hope.” 

Em: [laughs] Just give some thanks to the potty. Okay. 

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Christine’s Story – Vincent Viafore and Angelika Graswald 

Christine: All right, everyone. We are back. Um, I have a w– a weird one for you today, Em. It's a little different. Um, I’d originally heard of this case, uh, via Casefile (I think it was like earlier this year) and then, um, stumbled upon it on Netflix somewhere, Confession Tapes, I think– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and then went into a little bit of a deep dive because I thought I knew what was going on, and now I’m not really sure. So I’m curious to hear what you think. Um, by the way, I’m– I never really do it like this with my iPad, so this is kind of new to me. I’m trying to find a better like setup. I just feel like I don’t look professional usually when I record, so I’m trying– 

Em: Oh. [chuckles] 

Christine: –um, but if this is distracting– 

Em: Marvelous, darling [pronounced as “Mah-vah-lous, dah-ling”]. 

Christine: Marvelous. Let me know if it’s distracting. This is the story of Vincent Viafore, and, uh, we’re gonna jump right into it. So Angelika [pronounced “Ann-juh-lee-kah”] Graswald and Vincent Viafore – they were a couple living together in New York City in 2013. Their relationship progressed quickly, and they became engaged within only five months of meeting. They lived together part-time and frequently traveled together, including outdoorsy stuff like kayaking and hiking. Angelika was born in Latvia and immigrated to the US as an adult. Um, friends and acquaintances described her as multilingual, well-educated, very intellectually curious. She and Vincent lived in New York City, and he worked as a project manager for the state of New York, while she worked in education-related roles like tutoring, substitute teaching, that kind of thing. 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: Angelika described herself as an experienced kayaker. She’d been taken, uh– She’d taken kayaking cou– kayaking courses in the past and was familiar with like river conditions, tides, safety practices. Um, Vincent, meanwhile, he was 46 years old, so 11 years older than A-Angelika. Those who knew him described him as also outdoorsy, um, well-versed in things like kayaking, hiking. Um, he was social, physically active. He was known to enjoy travel and ka-kayaking, hiking. He had two children from a previous relationship and was described as deeply committed to them and maintained regular contact. Friends described him as generous, enthusiastic. He was also described as impulsive and a party animal. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, and he’s like in his 40s, so I think that sort of had morphed– I mean, this is just my perspective, and I could be wrong, but it felt like that perspective had morphed from like, “He’s such a fun guy,” to like, “Okay, he can be a little out of control.” Like, he can– 

Em: Gotcha. 

Christine: He can– 

Em: Like at a certain age, people are like, “Oh, why aren’t you going home?” 

Christine: Like, it’s not cute anymore sort of vibe is my– I, I– Totally my take on vibes. There’s nothing more than that, uh, here– 

Em: ‘kay. 

Christine: –so don’t take my, my word for it. So they lived together in New York. In the days leading up to April 19 w– 2015, Angelika and Vincent planned a kayaking excursion on the Hudson River with the intention of visiting a place called Bannerman Island. Have you heard about this place? 

Em: Not even a little bit. No. 

Christine: Okay. I would google it if you are able to. It’s beautiful for, for a random island off– 

Em: Ooh! 

Christine: –the coast of New York City. Like it’s really cool. 

Em: What? I feel like this is a little hidden gem. 

Christine: Isn't it? Isn’t it just? So it’s on the Hudson– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –created in– built in 190– So what is it? Est. uh–? No, circa 1901. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, it was a military surplus warehouse, I believe, if I’m remembering correctly. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And it’s since been abandoned basically, but you can, you know, boat there and poke around and, um– Essentially, they were– It was one of her favorite– Angelika’s favorite places because being from Latvia, she felt like this was so removed of a vibe from New York City. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: She felt like, “Oh, this reminds me of Europe.” She would volunteer there actually regularly. So she was part of like a volunteer committee that worked on the island. And she and, uh, Vincent were actually planning to do engagement photos there. Um– 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: Because they were, they were engaged to be married. And, uh, one other thing to add to that note is that they were both divorced twice, I believe. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So even though they were both relatively young, um, they had had a couple relationships in their past. Um, he had two kids, I believe, uh, but I will double check that, and she, um, did not have any. And so they’re kind of living this semi-sing– uh, semi-childfree life, you know, in New York. And he still likes to have a good time every now and then. Um, but generally, people were like, “Oh, they’re a pretty handsy, cutesy couple.” Like, they’re just very, um, affectionate. They are outdoorsy. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: You, you know the type. You know the type. So, they were going to Bannerman Island, apparently, to do a racy photo shoot. 

Em: Oh, racy. Okay. 

Christine: I know. So that feels like one of those questions on that MySpace quiz we just did. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Like, “Have you ever done a racy photo shoot?” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Um, to which I say I– [sighs] 

Em: Have you? 

Christine: Maybe? 

Em: [whispers] What does that mean? 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: Like a boudoir situation? 

Christine: No, I’ve never– I’ve wanted to do that. I’ve never done that. It was more of– [chuckles] Oh, god. 

Em: Oh, pl– [chuckles] 

Christine: This is not supposed to be for the main feed. 

Em: [chuckles] I can’t wait f– 

Christine: This is supposed to be for Yappy Hour only. I’ve admitted too much. Um– 

Em: [whispers] Tell us. 

Christine: No. [laughs] You are the Little Devil. You’re the fucking Hot Stuff in my ear. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Um, yes. I think I have, uh, just impromptu, you know. [laughs] 

Em: When? 

Christine: In 2018. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: That’s too far away for me to, um, know the people probably in the story, so my interest is a little lower, if that helps. 

Christine: 2018, I want you to know, was two years– was like a year into our podcast. 

Em: [gasps] Wait, it’s– Back up! 

Christine: [laughs] I was like, “Wait a minute.” 

Em: Wait, do I know about this? 

Christine: No, I don’t think anyone in the world, including me, sober me, has any clue about this. 

Em: Oh, I see. I see. This was a silly little wine moment. 

Christine: It was just like a– maybe like a honeymoon thing, you know. 

Em: Oh, I see. Okay, cool. 

Christine: So nothing like w– that weird. But– 

Em: No, that’s not weird at all. No, no, no. I– 

Christine: Just something I’ve never thought about again, I think. 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: And now I’m like, “Oh, wow. Okay, how much do I say–“ 

Em: Good for you. 

Christine: “– that I’m discovering myself?” 

Em: There’s nothing– There’s no shame in that. Good for you. 

Christine: Listen. You know– 

Em: Good for you. 

Christine: –it’s good times. Good times. 

Em: I, I bet it was a blast. 

Christine: Beers were like a dollar down there. It was great. [chuckles] 

Em: [laughs] Girl. I bet you had a great time. There’s– 

Christine: I had a big hat. Like what are you gonna do? [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] No judgment from us. We are ve– 

Christine: This is what happens too when I listen to– I sent you that clip the other day of Ladies and Tangents where I’m like– I listen to that, and I’m like suddenly loosey-goosey. I’m like, “I’ll say whatever,” you know– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –because they’re so open, and they’ll say like every– anything, everything. They have some boundaries, but they will say so much openly that like sometimes I forget I’m on our podcast, not theirs. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, anyway– 

Em: Whatever. You married the guy, so, uh, the pictures are probably incredible and, um–  

Christine: Very true. They’re probably gonna haunt Leona someday when she accidentally puts like some SD card or logs into iCloud– I don’t know. You know, it’s– 

Em: Maybe. But you know what? 

Christine: It’s nothing that bad. 

Em: Then she’ll get older, and then she’ll go, “Good for my parents.” 

Christine: I hope so. I can only hope so. Okay, so they were going to do a racy photo shoot. Um, I’ve never done one– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –outside in my lingerie if we’re– [laughs] 

Em: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. 

Christine: No, I’ve never done one ever at all. 

Em: I was like, “Wow, we switched that up quick. Okay.” [laughs] 

Christine: Jack, cut that out now. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Oh my god. No, no, no. What if I just gaslit you and was like, “What are you talking about?” Um– 

Em: That would have been crazy. I would have been like, “I hope that somebody else heard that.” [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, no. Like the evidence has to be here somewhere. Um, no. [laughs] 

Em: Okay. Racy, racy photo shoot. They’re doing a racy photo shoot. 

Christine: Sorry, I’ve never done like an outdoor like, you know, in public type of– 

Em: [laughs] Sure. 

Christine: I’m just like– to be specific. I don’t know. Uh, nothing wrong with that. 

Em: Eventually, if we, if we like be specific enough, eventually, you’re just gonna tell us the whole thing, so. 

Christine: [laughs] I just can’t shut the fuck up, can I? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Wow. Okay. How do you think I get in these situations, you know? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Anyway, okay. So let’s get back to– Now I’m embarrassed. 

Em: No! 

Christine: Okay, let’s get back to Bannerman Island. 

Em: Nothing to be embarrassed about. 

Christine: I’m not really. I’m just, I’m just– I’m embarrassed that my cheeks are red and then it makes my cheeks more red. [laughs] 

Em: You’re embarrassed that you look embarrassed. 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. 

Em: Gotcha. No. 

Christine: You get it. Okay. So, um, they are planning this– So they’re planning to have a few drinks with friends, and then they’re gonna go do this racy photo shoot on Bannerman Island, which is also where they were going to do engagement photos. She feels really drawn to this place, does volunteer work there. So this is the plan. So originally that day, um, the weather was okay. It wasn’t too bad. It was like– But it was April in New York. So it’s like it’s not warm, right? 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Like the temperature of the water, I believe, was around 40 or s– 45, and like they said a few minutes in that and you have hypothermia. So I– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I don’t think this is like it’s a beautiful day– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –but they wanted to do it anyway, and I think they had planned it in advance. And so despite the weather looking a little choppy and windy um, but mostly later in the day, they felt like comfortable enough to go ahead with their kayaking trip. So they launched from Plum Point and successfully reached Bannerman Island earlier in the day, and, as far as we know, um, nothing distressing happened during that portion of the trip. There was [chuckles] this couple interviewed on, I believe it was a Netflix Confession Tapes, um, who said– [chuckles] And they were mentioned in some other reporting, but they were witnesses to like make the timeline of this. Because she’s like, “We have, um, [chuckles] binoculars that look at Bannerman Island just set– stationed in our house–“ 

Em: Oh, wow. 

Christine: “–so my husband like spotted them,” and I’m like– 

Em: That's– 

Christine: –“Doing a racy photo shoot?” [laughs] Like I’m like thinking about it now, going– 

Em: All of a sudden, he was like, “Wow, these binoculars really came in handy today.” [laughs] 

Christine: It’s– It was like, “Of course I’m not faulting you for having binoculars. It’s a cool place to look at, I guess.” But like the fact that they were part of the timeline, which means like, “Oh, we saw them doing a racy photo shoot,” I’m like, “This is– 

Em: With great power comes great responsibility, yeah. 

Christine: Right. And apparently they knew each other, so this wasn’t even like a weird thing. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Um, as far as– 

Em: I would have t– I would have put it– my phone camera through the binoculars and been like, “Guess what we just saw?” [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. Like Snapchat it [laughs] with like no regard for consequences– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –like during the MySpace days when we would just say and do anything on the internet. 

Em: Yep. 

Christine: Um, yeah, so that was just like a funny tidbit to me because, I mean, first of all, they were witnesses, so they like confirmed that the two of them made it to the island. And then I’m like, “Okay, but like can we talk about this racy photo shoot you apparently were like ‘binocularing’ into?” I don’t know. Um, nobody seems to mention that part, but– 

Em: [chuckles] Fair enough. 

Christine: Alas, alas. I, I ask the hard-hitting– hitting questions on our podcast. Okay, so they’re on this island having, um, their racy photo shoot. This is confirmed by [chuckles] binocular-wielding neighbors. And, uh, as far as we know, nothing distressing has happened at this point. The return journey, though, is where everything goes wrong. There were deteriorating conditions. It was getting windy. It was getting colder. Um, the currents were getting stronger, and the sun is going down. So, you know, like you can feel it getting colder. That evening, April 19, 2015, a couple hours later, Angelika Graswald called 911 from the Hudson River and told the dispatcher that she is on the Hudson River, her fiancé “fell in the water,” and she cannot reach him because of strong wind, waves, and current. She says he’s getting farther away and he is not going to make it. 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: He’s going to drown. It’s horrible because– 

Em: You’re just watching it happen. 

Christine: Y-You’re– Yeah. And you can hear the call, you know, on the recording, and it’s– You can hear a recording of the call. It’s, it’s, it’s upsetting. Um, Angelika provides info that places them on the river near Cornwall-on-Hudson and Bannerman Island. Um, in the same call, she indicates Vincent does not have a life jacket on, and she said he’s holding on to some sort of small cushion or float, something like that. Um, and she also explained to dispatch that she was struggling to control her own kayak and position in the water. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So rescuers responded um, and she was rescued before being taken to the hospital for hypothermia. Um, Vincent was nowhere to be found, unfortunately. So in the days after Vincent disappeared, Angelika was questioned repeatedly, um, by New York State Police because, as the way they described it, they did not like how– they didn’t– they felt a red flag about her reaction like– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –or lack thereof to, to the event, which I’m like– Uh, one of the examples that the investigator gave was, “Oh, when she was sitting in the ambulance afterward, she was just like staring and not–“ 

Em: So, shock. 

Christine: “–like crying.” E-Exactly. I was like, “Isn’t that the literal definition?” Like just frozen, you know? It was just weird to me where I thought like, I feel like we’re putting pieces in that don’t necessarily– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –fit. But I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. I feel like that’s also– 

Christine: They, they didn’t– 

Em: No matter what it would be wrong because then if she was crying, then she’s maybe like too emotional or looks suspicious or– 

Christine: Exactly, we see that all the time where people like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –fake emotions, and it looks even like worse, you know. Uh, but so– 

Em: I think I would be in full-blown shock. If something were to happen traumatic right before my very eyes and watching the love of my life away get– 

Christine: But, but then also– 

Em: –drift away. 

Christine: And you’re also like at risk– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –for your life, you know. Like you might not even survive, so you’re having like a life and death experience while watching someone else that you love die in front of you. Yeah, exactly. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So it was weird to me that people were like claiming that was the first red flag. But I mean, maybe there was more to it than that. But the, the actual explanation or example that the investigator gave on Netflix was like, “she was sitting in the back of the ambulance, and she didn’t look very upset.” And I was like, “What?” [chuckles] 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: “That’s like not a thing.” Um– 

Em: That’s not a thing. People have handled that shit in so many different ways. 

Christine: Especially for like a woman, it’s like, “Oh, because she’s a woman, she’s supposed to be hysterical”? I don’t know. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: It just felt i-icky. 

Em: But then if she was crying, she would be “hysterical.” Like again. 

Christine: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. So it’s like it just felt really icky to me. Um, but anyway, I digress. So they started questioning her, and, um, they saw some inconsistencies between Angelika’s 911 call, um, the physical evidence they were collecting, and her retelling of events, and they sort of wanted to swoop in. Um, her version of events when she was questioned was that they had had a few beers with friends, went on a kayaking trip, thinking it would be decent weather, planning to do this racy photo shoot. Uh, she said they went out there, took some photos, and on the return trip, Vincent’s kayak tipped, and he couldn’t stay afloat as he wasn’t wearing a life jacket. Police were like, “Mm, we’re not so sure.” So they found her calm to be unusual and apparently suspicious. Um, sometimes, she speaks quietly. Other times, she speaks almost like clinically or like– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –I would say more like philosophically– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –which I feel like is– like to me is very normal. Like, I mean, not to be that guy just saying, “I just got into astrology,” but like– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –as an Aquarius moon and rising, I’m sort of like, “I understand that d– like detached feeling,” you know. If, if I were in a traumatic state, like you were saying, I feel like I would dissociate and be like, “Let me think about this from like a clinical perspective.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like I could totally see myself pulling out of it emotionally and being– 

Em: Practical. 

Christine: Yes, practical, very like straightforward, and then e-every now and then getting quiet and upset or whatever. 

Em: Spiraling and then locking– 

Christine: Spiraling. 

Em: –and then locking back in. Yeah. 

Christine: Exactly, exactly. I didn’t find it that odd, but this is all supposedly part of the prosecution’s side of things. And again, I don’t really know what I believe about this case. So, um–  

Em: Interesting. Okay, good to know. 

Christine: Yeah, I’m curious what you’re gonna think, honestly. 

Em: Me too. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] Okay, so I will say, despite my like, um, grand, uh, defense of her of her behavior during interrogations, she had behaved pretty strangely in the days after Vincent’s death. So she had posted some odd things online, including videos of her doing cartwheels, um– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –smoking a cigar, uh, taking shots. Like it just felt like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are we celebrating?” You know what I mean? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: The vibe was, the vibe was off. I will say it was 20– What was it? 2015, so like, so like Instagram was just taking off, and it feels kind of like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –something you would post to Instagram, but not after your hu– fiancé just died. I don’t know. 

Em: No, I don’t– 

Christine: I find– this part’s weird. 

Em: I don’t know what the etiquette would have been then because it feels like, like social media was still discovering itself, so it’s like you don’t know what is normal– 

Christine: True, and– 

Em: –to post or not. 

Christine: –I feel like social media back then was almost like more separate from your identity. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Like now it’s sort of like, “Oh, this is my identity– Well, or whatever I wanna present as my identity.” But I feel like– I mean, I could be wrong, but I feel like it was a more like, when it’s on, it’s on. When it’s off, you’re not thinking– It’s not like part of us the way it is now. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I don’t know if that’s true though, but that’s kind of how I remember it. 

Em: That’s true. 

Christine: Like it was more impersonal. Like it was just like, “Here’s my breakfast,” [chuckles] and like– 

Em: It was something– Yeah. It was something that like– They were essentially just snapshots. It was like making a photo album– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –in some way 

Christine: Right, exactly. 

Em: Versus like, “Oh, this is my entire life.” 

Christine: “This is my–“ 

Em: There weren’t like influencers at the– you know. 

Christine: Yeah. Oh my god. So weird. Yeah, it’s weird to think about, but that was kind of the era that this was taking place in. So I will say, yes, it is not a great look to be like smoking cigars, doing shots on Instagram like within days of your hu– of your fiancé’s– 

Em: Yeah, not cute. 

Christine: –tragic death. 

Em: Unless– Was it a– was it footage from before he passed? 

Christine: No, it was– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: It was present day, and so it was just off-putting, okay, is what I will say. Um– 

Em: Sounds like it, yeah. 

Christine: I’m not saying it’s illegal, but it is, to me, a little bit off-putting. Um, but so either way, uh, they were looking at her, and, like I said earlier, Angelika volunteered at Bannerman Island regularly. She was close with some of the other volunteers, um, and was actually heading out there one day to volunteer when the police just happened to be wandering the island “looking for clues.” Um, they were sort of like lying in wait, like they knew she was gonna come there to volunteer, and they just wanted to accidentally run into her is the implication that– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –the defense gave. So– 

Em: That it was a bit of a setup. 

Christine: But that’s what they– that’s what the defense claims. I will say the police claimed like, “Oh, she said she was gonna meet us there.” And it’s like he said, she said, you know. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: I don’t know. But, um, from her side of things, uh, they were just kind of like hanging out there, waiting for her to show up. And to be fair, there are pictures of these police officers like picking up fake evidence, like taking selfies on the island. Like you can tell they’re not really there for– 

Em: They’re not invested. 

Christine: –clue, clues. They’re there to like spring a trap on her. Yeah. It– It’s– It just feels gross. And like they’re on a boat; they’re taking selfies, and it’s just like, “What do you–“ Again, like this was before we understood how like tied to our phones we would be someday because like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –you just wouldn’t do that now, I don’t think. Or maybe some idiots would I’m sure, and they are still. 

Em: I could see someone when they think they’ve got a second off the clock, like, “Oh, look, we’re by this water, and it’s pretty.” 

Christine: “Selfie!” 

Em: “Look at this picture.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But yeah, especially then it would have been weirder because nobody was taking pictures on their phone the way that we take pictures now. 

Christine: Yeah, and I also feel like it would have had to be like a digital camera or something, which is so str– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Well, maybe not. I guess if people had Instagram, they had like iPhones, but it– it’s just odd. And like there are photos where they’re like picking something up that’s invisible to be like, “Look, we’re getting clues,” you know– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –like fake clues. 

Em: Weird. 

Christine: So it’s like they’re obviously like faking it. They’re just being try– trying to be funny, I guess. I don’t know. So I kind of tend to believe they were lying in wait basically, just hoping to run into her, but it’s a setup. So a volunteer who was interviewed, um, claims that she heard one of the cops say– like after Angelika got there, one of the cops say to another cop, “It’s your turn. Get that bitch to tell you the story.” 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: This is what this volunteer claims she heard. 

Em: Tale as old as time. Maybe it’s not real– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –but maybe it is. 

Christine: Correct. So Dequarto is kind of– He’s the investigator on this, like the lead investigator. And I was hesitant to put this in my notes, but I’m gonna say it anyway. He’s kind of a slimy dude. That is my opinion. That’s my honest opinion. I wasn’t sure how I felt at first, but then watching the actual footage, I felt like I could garner a, a little guess here– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –as to like h-how I feel about him. Um, he’s the one who goes to step aside, have a private conversation with her, tell her, you know, “You’re safe with me. Just tell me what happened. This must be so hard,” whatever. They have this private off-air chat on the, on the island, and nothing’s recorded. Okay? So we don’t– This is all alleged on his part. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: The way that it’s described is that they’re talking about how hard this is and like why does she feel so upset and distraught and guilty, and, uh, she mentions that there wasn’t a plug in Vincent’s kayak. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And he’s like, “Hold up. What do you mean there’s no plug in the kayak?” And she’s like, “Oh, well, it fell out, and my–“ Like I remember one of the clips, she literally says, “My cat liked to play with it.” She’s like, “It fell out, and so I didn’t put it back in ’cause the cat was playing with it, and I knew it wasn’t in there.” Um, so I shouldn’t have– 

Em: So she’s like a– admitting to this? 

Christine: She’s saying, “Yeah, I knew this plug wasn’t in there,” and so he is like, “Oh my god, I’ve got her. Like, this is it.” Here’s the thing though. He’s picturing like probably what you’re picturing, what I was picturing, like a plug in the bottom of the kayak that like– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –you pull, and it just– It’s actually this drainage hole at the top sort of, um, that’s meant it’s not– it’s not, it’s not meant– it doesn’t get water in it. Like it’s not like if it’s out, the boat sinks. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: It’s just not how it works. 

Em: Got it. 

Christine: It’s like a minimal part of– 

Em: I’m thinking of like Looney Tunes, and if the plug comes undone, then water’s– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: –sprinkling in. Okay. 

Christine: Like the Acme-branded– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –uh, bathtub plug. Yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: So that’s kind of what I was picturing. And of course, he latches on to this, as I think we all probably would, um, and they make this like the entire center point of their case without even kind of bothering to look into it. And you have to remember like language is a barrier here too. Like she’s from Latvia– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –and, you know, she speaks incredible English, but it’s also like the, the nuances of conversation, especially when someone’s being manipulative for their job as a police officer, as an investigator. Like you’re being manipulated, you know, one way or the other. It just felt like an unfair battle, I feel. Like she didn’t quite know what she was getting herself into. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, and that becomes abundantly clear, because they basically say, “Will you come to the station with us?” But they frame it more like, “Oh, you’re coming to the station with–“ She never realized– I’ll say it now. She never realized she could be like, “No,” you know? 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Like she just thought, “Oh, okay.” Like, “I have to go to the station.” Like, she just kind of did everything she thought she was supposed to do. Um, according to Casefile’s reporting, her dad worked in, uh, law enforcement in Latvia. And so she had this kind of understanding of like, “Oh, I trust law enforcement.” 

Em: [scoffs] Other pol– Trust the police, okay. 

Christine: Like, “I trust them. They’re gonna like just understand what I’m saying,” and like, you know. She just had a totally different understanding– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –than most of us do about like the American legal system and the, you know, how this all unfolds. Um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –so it’s a little bit hard to – oof – relay, but essentially, he’s picturing like, what you said, like a drainage plug that sinks the kayak, and she says, “I know that the, that the plug wasn’t in there.” He presents it in a way where she’s sort of admitting to murder. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Okay? Like n– 

Em: That’s what I assumed. I was like– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –“She’s admitting that she just like–“ Even if it was accidental murder, like manslaughter, she’s saying– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –“We took off without a plug, and now–“ 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: “–it’s filling up with water.” 

Christine: “And I knew about it.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. So he thinks she’s admitting to murder, and he says, “I’m taking you back to the station.” Um, and he does all these smarmy things, like he’s, he’s saying, “You’re a pretty girl,” and he like puts his hand on her leg to be like affectionate and like– 

Em: Eugh. 

Christine: Ugh, it’s just gross. Like you can tell– And he’s like, and she had said something like, “Oh, he– she finds him attractive or something,” and you can tell he’s just like leaning into– It’s just gross the whole thing. 

Em: Ugh. 

Christine: So anyway, uh, he’s, he’s being– he’s of course one of the ones in the selfie, by the way, on the, uh, on the boat– 

Em: Oh, of course. 

Christine: –boat selfie, so. 

Em: Of course. You didn’t have to tell me, by the way. I assumed. 

Christine: I know. You knew. So basically, now that they’re on the record, they’re being taped and everything, he’s like, “I need you to tell me again about the plug. Like, say what you said earlier.” And she’s like, “Okay.” And, and she’s not quite saying what he wants her to say. Um, he wants her to clearly say like, “Oh, I pulled the plug on his kayak and killed him, you know, and drowned him–“ 

Em: Right. 

Christine: “–on purpose.” That’s what he’s like hoping for. Um, he’s like talking in circles a little bit, and she’s just kind of nodding along. And people talk about that too as a point of like being an immigrant in this country and like the– People were discussing it on Reddit and saying like, “What d– What’s your take on the– on this interrogation?”, and people have said like, you know, “As someone who is an immigrant or knows an immigrant family or whatever, there’s often this like innate reaction which is like to just be affirmative, like ‘yes’ to like convey that you understand–” 

Em: Right. 

Christine: “–even, even if you don’t necessarily understand or even if you’re just trying to like, uh, be, I don’t know, part of the conversation.” There’s just like this kind of instinct to verify or to acknowledge like understanding, and I feel like that could be– play into this, and I just mention that because there’s so much debate online about like how much of this is cultural versus– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –she’s a murderer. You know, it’s just [chuckles] there’s really a wide range. Um– 

Em: What a sticky gray space. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. What a, what a place to land. Um, yikes. So they’re trying everything they can to get her to admit, um, admit that she killed her fiancé. And she’s kind of like nodding along, trying to like understand and like having a back and forth. He tells her, “This is like therapy for you.” 

Em: [gasps] What? 

Christine: [chuckles] I know. 

Em: He said–? 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: What the fuck? Who– I’m immediately over him. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I was over, I was over him. I’m over him now. 

Christine: We’re over him. 

Em: I’m over him. I literally– Okay, so first of all, ima– 

Christine: Dequarto, Detective Dequarto. 

Em: Detective [makes a fart sound] more like it. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I– Ima– I mean, imagine that the person you love– 

Christine: “Defarto,” you know. 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah, Detective Defarto, yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] Defarto. 

Em: Detective Flatulence. Um, I like– Imagine the person you love drifting away, screaming for help. There’s a language barrier. You’re on a fucking island. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: When you finally get found out, you think you should be able to trust the system, as we all should be able to, and you can’t. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: And then we get there– 

Christine: That’s the other thing to remind like we should inherently have– be able to– If, if all things were well, we should. You’re right. That’s a good point. 

Em: They’re supposed to be protecting us. And yet– 

Christine: It’s like the– Exactly. 

Em: Um, but like imagine like going through everything she– Assuming that she’s innocent here, imagine going through everything she’s gone through and this “shock” that she is in, I– she’s probably trying to hold it together because she knows on top of wanting to grieve, she has a whole language barrier to prevent herself from jail. Like that– 

Christine: Okay. Uh, but so– 

Em: Crazy. 

Christine: Okay. So exactly. And also she didn’t even realize at this point that she was like– 

Em: Even in a– like a suspect. 

Christine: –on the hook. No. Yeah, she did not understand. She really didn’t understand. Um– 

Em: So she’s just feeding them information. 

Christine: She’s just like giving them the story. Like she’s like, “Well, this is what happened.” Um, and it gets– it goes bad because of course she doesn’t know she’s supposed to call a lawyer, you know, and all this. And like you made a point about grieving and like you’re supposed to be– There’s this language barrier, and people have also discussed like in Latvia– They even interviewed her family and people from her, uh, neck of the woods, so to speak, and they were like, “Oh, you don’t cry in public. You don’t show emotion in Lat– Like that’s–“ 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: I don’t know how true this is. This is just a couple people who said it on the documentary, but they were like, “Of course she’s not gonna like cry and wail hysterically in public. Like we’re trained to not do that. That’s culturally like– We need to have it all together. Like we need–“ 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: “–to put up a mask and a facade and–” 

Em: And that’s so many additional layers. First of all, I don’t know how you train somebody to not cry when the person they love is dying in front of them or maybe going to die in front of them. That’s crazy. That’s wild. Like, I could never do– I would, I would fail in Latvia. 

Christine: I mean, I think that was more shock probably and like she certainly had much– she had a lot of grieving. Like she wasn’t like totally– 

Em: No, no, what I’m saying is I, I can’t imagine publicly keeping that shit together because– 

Christine: Oh, yeah, no, no. 

Em: –she probably just wants to go home and finally let loose and scream-cry. 

Christine: Right, right, right. 

Em: Like I– Like, like lose her mind, and, and yet she’s– 

Christine: But now she’s like under scrutiny. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. I like– She already has to disassociate that much if culturally she believes that’s what she’s supposed to do. 

Christine: Right, right, right, right, right. 

Em: And like they’re not even letting her leave to go properly grieve privately because now they’re holding her, where she’s trying to be nothing but cordial, but it looks– 

Christine: And– 

Em: –now it looks suspicious, and– Yeah. 

Christine: And she’s on her period. 

Em: [gasps] That fucking poor girl. 

Christine: I know. And like– 

Em: Like and, and she’s still not crying, by the way. Like she’s like, like she’s just like sitting with all of this and just feels uncomfortable– 

Christine: Okay, but– 

Em: –and is in pain probably. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: What? 

Christine: Caveats: she claims she wa– She alleges she was on her period and that they were giving her a hard time about going to the bathroom. Um– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: I know. So I wanna point that out. Secondly, she was doing, um, like yoga and other things in the room. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And people have always pointed to this to be like, “Who the fuck does like Sun Salutation in the interrogation room?” And it’s sort of like, “Isn’t she crazy?” And it’s like, okay, she’s on her period allegedly. Um, she’s– This is 11 hours of interrogation. 

Em: Yeah, she needs to stretch. 

Christine: She’s– Just like whatever. Maybe she has cramps. Maybe she’s just stretching. Who the fuck knows? I don’t know. 

Em: Or maybe like sensory-wise, she’s just like trying to like get some energy out because she, she still hasn’t– 

Christine: What are you gonna do for 11– 

Em: –she still hasn’t been allowed to fucking cry, so like maybe she’s just like trying to like be active and distract herself, something. 

Christine: Yeah, it just feels like it’s a, pardon my pun, like a stretch to say– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –“Oh, that’s just her proving that she killed him.” It’s like, I don’t see the correlation there, you know. 

Em: I don’t care how sad I am. If I sat for 11 hours, I would have to stretch. 

Christine: Yeah, it feels like a weird thing to not. And I think maybe this is again where the time like the, the zeitgeist is like so different. Like nowadays– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –if you saw someone doing stretches and it– you wouldn’t be like, “That’s weird as fuck.” Like now it’s like, “Okay, everyone’s doing like workplace yoga stretches.” Like nothing– 

Em: Or like– 

Christine: It’s not that weird anymore. 

Em: –bad circulation. Like there’s a way to explain things, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. It feels like nowadays that wouldn’t be as much of a, like a point in the case, but back then it was like all the rage to talk about how weird she was in the interrogation room. Um, I mean, she really just was doing yoga, but what do I know? 

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Christine: Okay, so next they ask about her relationship with Vincent. And like you said, she’s just talking. She’s just feeding them the story. Okay? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So when they ask– Like she was bound to get herself in trouble here because they asked about her relationship with Vincent, and she said it was difficult. It was turbulent. 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: I know. It was emotionally uneven, and she was unhappy. And, you know, they’ve got this plug thing in the back of their mind, right? Because they haven’t like found– They haven’t like looked up what this thing is yet really. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So, so they’re not even– I don’t think they even understand that this is not like the Acme plug we talked about. Um, could they have checked in those 11 hours? Yeah, probably, but whatever. Um, so they’re like, “Really? You are unhappy? Oh my gosh, but you’re such a beautiful girl. Like tell me more.” You know, just like the gross, just the gross behavior. Um, she said she felt trapped, and she said she struggled to confront people directly. She didn’t know how to end her engagement– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –um, even though she was emotionally checked out. And they were like, “Ding, ding, ding. We’ve got you.” Um, she said– 

Em: And that– By the way, that makes me feel– Unless she’s really– I feel like this makes me feel like she’s innocent because if she was trying to get away with it, there’s no way she’d be saying this stuff. 

Christine: That’s the other thing. I’m like, “But would a person–“ Unless you really are like totally beyond like any sort of social norms, but like posting cigar photos and shots– taking shots on the internet is also not something you would do if you’re trying to get away with it either. 

Em: Sure, sure, sure. 

Christine: No, like– But like to your point, like I don’t think any of this behavior is like what you would do if you were guilty. 

Em: Yeah, no– 

Christine: I mean, I don’t know like what, what anyone would do, okay? But like you’re right– 

Em: But you would try to keep it together and look like really like under insane duress and– 

Christine: Yeah, I don’t think you would be like spilling all your secrets if you were guilty. But like I guess people argue that she just– 

Em: Didn’t know. 

Christine: –didn’t know, didn’t care. I– You know, I– I’m not really sure. But that is a good point because she is just like spilling it. And I mean to be fair, the way he presents it is not like “we’re looking at you as the cause of this.” Like she doesn’t even clock that yet. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: He’s basically just saying like, “this is a therapy session, and you can just let it– like vent,” you know, and she– Someone made a good point too of like she didn’t have anyone else to vent to, and she’s been like, like you said, grieving, or attempting to, for days, and it’s like this is the first person who’s like, “Just tell me what’s going on. What are you feeling?” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And she’s like, “Here you go,” and it all went to shit because of that, or she did do it, and I could be wrong. You know what I mean? Uh, okay. So she said Vincent loved her more than she loved him. Uh, she said that imbalance really weighed on her conscience. Um, she felt overwhelmed by his expectations, his attention. She even expressed some like very upsetting things about um, like rape, you know, and like pr-pressuring her to do things sexually that she– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –did not wanna do. Um, and when asked if– In the documentary, I don’t know that she necessarily alluded to this so specifically in the interrogation, but in the documentary later when they’re dis– talking to her, uh, in more recent years, they asked if he had assaulted her, and she said yes. So all that to say, she’s like spilling her guts here about how uneven she felt, unsteady in the relationship, how she was checked out emotionally, she didn’t know how to get out of it. Just all really bad. All red flags– or at least what investigators are calling red flags. Um, they also found, I will say, a lot of sex paraphernalia in the house to back up her claims– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –like a lot of like bondage stuff. And that’s what she had said is like, “I’m not comfortable with doing these things, but like–“ 

Em: Right. 

Christine: “–he wants me to.” And so, you know, they, they did find stuff at the house to back that claim up. And of course, now they’re goading her on, right? They’re like, “Okay, spill it,” you know, and they finally get to the event of Vincent actually drowning. And when they discuss Vincent going into the water, they’re like, “But wasn’t that– wasn’t part of you relieved? Weren’t you like a little bit relieved?” And essentially, she admits like, “Yeah, it felt goo– Like part of it felt good.” 

Em: [groans] Ugh. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: Poor thing. 

Christine: And so police were like, “Well, that’s not a good look.” Um, she said– She says now that statement was taken way out of context, um, but at the time, investigators were like, “She admitted it,” you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: “It felt good. She admitted it. She killed him.” They still couldn’t get what they wanted though, which was for her to say outright like, “I took the plug out to kill him.” Um, they wanted her to say it so badly. Like you can tell– They’re literally saying like, “Just tell us you di–” And that’s– She’s like, “No, I did not do that.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, in the video playback, you can see she never says she takes the plug out to kill him, but they’re now trying to get her to say that she subconsciously took the plug out. 

Em: What? 

Christine: Because she subco-onsciously– 

Em: Like she– 

Christine: –wanted him to die. 

Em: Like part of her just wanted this, and even she didn’t know. 

Christine: Exactly, and that’s what they’re– 

Em: What a fuck-ass excuse. They’re gonna– They think that holds up in court? 

Christine: That’s what they’re saying? That’s what they’re literally saying. And so she says– She, she like pauses, and she– And he’s like, “Just say it. What do you have to say?” And she says, “Well, it’s psychological. I’m just trying to understand myself like how and why I would do that.” Like they’re literally telling her like– 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: –“This is what happened,” and she’s like– 

Em: So she’s even saying– 

Christine: –“I’m just trying to understand.” 

Em: She’s even saying, “That doesn’t fly. Like I’m–" 

Christine: No, she’s like, “I don’t think so.” You know, it’s like– 

Em: Like, “That would be silly. No, I don’t want that.” 

Christine: We’re talking like ten hours in at this point. Okay? 

Em: She’s losing it. I don’t– And poor her. 

Christine: And she says, “Well, it’s psychological. I’m just trying to understand myself like how and why I would do that. I didn’t want anybody hurt. I never would want anybody hurt.” And then he says, “So why do you feel guilt?” And she says, “Because of that thought I had that I wanted to be free, that I wanted him to be gone. So I felt guilty about that.” 

Em: Which is fucking normal. 

Christine: I mean, which I feel like is pretty valid. Like, unfortunately, you know– 

Em: If I were unhappy in my relationship and then she died, I would be like, “Well, you know, I f–“ 

Christine: You’d be like, “Phew!” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] “Thank god.” No, I’d be like, “I’m really– I feel guilty because a part of me wished for a way out, and this–“ 

Christine: Right, ’cause you feel almost– 

Em: “–happened–“ 

Christine: –and then if you remember like, “Oh, shit. I knew that like that one plug was out,” which like by the way– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –spoiler alert, they like proved that that has nothing– it– that was a very– they said like a negligible– 

Em: Course. 

Christine: –thing for cause of death like that– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: We'll get there. Um, so yeah, he’s basically trying to get her to admit that she subconsciously did this. 

Em: Stupid. 

Christine: It– It’s just like a stretch, you know. Talk about stretch. So the interrogation drags on for hours, but she never directly admitted to killing Vincent. And when it was insinuated that she– At one point, they were like, “Well, when you watched him drown,” and she shouted, “No, I didn’t watch him drown. I tried to do something about it.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: But they’re just– She’s like now being like, “Wait a minute. They’re like misunderstanding all of this,” you know– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –um, unfortunately too little, too late. 

Em: And ten hours of information in, she’s like– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –and, and, “Now I have to recover with my language barrier, while I’m like– also very aware that I ju– my, my, my– the love of my life is dead.” 

Christine: And now I’m like, “Wait, I’m, I’m a suspect here?” Like– 

Em: The panic. 

Christine: Because also like– 

Em: The panic, oh my god. 

Christine: –they’re like manipulating her being like, “You’re pretty, and like who would wanna hurt–?” It’s just like gross. It’s gross. It’s gross. I know that this is like part of the job or whatever, but I don’t like it. 

Em: I don’t like it at all. 

Christine: Um, so the 11 hours of interrogation gives context to this yoga stretching and all that. I mean, we talked about that. I don’t find it that weird. She also now claims like– She said, “Well, I was also on my period, and so I was uncomfortable. They weren’t– They were like limiting my interaction with people, my bathroom use.” Like it was just– It– They were making her uncomfortable, again which I know is part of the job. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: She was not under arrest at this point, okay? Um, her defense would later argue that the interviews we– were coercive because she was exhausted, her words were taken out of context. Um, and they also argued that some of this stuff shouldn’t even be admissible because she hadn’t been Mirandaized. Um, but whatever you believe, she clearly did not have an understanding of like where this was going, um, at first, and she did not understand that she needed a lawyer and could call for one. So from the police perspective, they were homing in on their target. They were like, “Oh my god, she’s finally admitting what she did.” They later testified that Angelika’s admissions about the drain plug and her comments about Vinc– Vincent’s death were what led them to believe that this was not an accident. And it’s like, okay. Um, so suddenly this is a homicide case. And Dequarto’s partner barges into the interrogation room at one point and is like, “There’s a gun missing from your house.” So apparently, Vincent had had two weapons in the house, two guns, and– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –one of them– when they searched the home, one of the guns was missing. So they go– 

Em: Oh, great. 

Christine: –they go to her, and they’re like, “Where’s that gun?” And she’s like, “I don’t know.” And they’re– 

Em: And also, what does it fucking matter? He didn’t die by gun. What does it fucking matter? 

Christine: Well, they said, “Did you shoot him?” 

Em: Oh my god. And then just like– 

Christine: Because they haven’t found his body. 

Em: [sighs] I’m pissed the fuck off. 

Christine: So now they’re like, “Do you, do you, uh, have the gun? Where is it? Uh, is that how you killed him? You shot him?” And she was like, “No.” Um, and I imagine that at this point, she’s like losing it. Um, they’re pushing her. They’re pushing her. They’re saying, “You killed him. You killed him. Just admit it.” These are direct quotes. And she said, “You want your fucking statement?” And they’re like, “Just say it. Just tell us what we already know,” and she says, “I wanted him dead, and now he’s gone. And I’m okay with that,” and is basically like– 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: –“Is that what you wanted me to say?” kind of thing, you know. 

Em: Well, that’s classic. Just saying exactly what they wanna hear, and now you can’t back out of that. 

Christine: They arrest her. 

Em: Of course. 

Christine: Not long after this, they find the body, and lo and behold, as you expected, there was no gunshot. The gun had nothing to do with it. Uh– 

Em: Sometimes I feel like you tell a story, and I’m like, “I love that you did the research, but you don’t even have to keep going. I’m–” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [chuckles] “I’m–“ 

Christine: “Yeah, you could have just asked.” 

Em: “–pissed off.” 

Christine: [chuckles] Okay, there’s no sign of foul play, no bullet wound, nothing like that. But the coroner’s report – I’m no expert – is fucking wacko. Okay, listen to this. The coroner’s report is marked as “homicide.” And remember, corners work closely with police and– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –law enforcement and all that. It’s marked as “homicide,” and the cause of death is, and I quote, “kayak drain plug intentionally removed by other.” 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: So– 

Em: So just straight up throwing her under the bus. 

Christine: Literally saying, “someone pulled a dr–“ which like again, they’re not even looking at what this thing is. It’s like this big [holds her thumb and index finger about an inch apart] and it’s like on top of the kayak. It’s not what everyone thinks it is, but the fact– 

Em: It’s like– 

Christine: –that the corner was like, “Yep, that’s the murder weapon. It’s a kayak with a little hole in it, and she–“ It just– What are you talking about? 

Em: That clearly– The co– First of all, that coroner, I pray to god, is fired. Like there– 

Christine: [groans] 

Em: Is there– 

Christine: Probably not. 

Em: How do you even– So I’m assuming, spoiler alert, we find out that that had nothing to do with it since it is what you already said. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So then he– Did this coroner even fucking investigate? Did this coroner just get a fucking $5 bill from his cop friend, and he’s like, “Oh, yep. We figured that one out. Slam dunk, case closed.” 

Christine: Well, no, ’cause I’m sure they wanted to find a bullet wound, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I’m sure they wanted to say she shot him, and so they were probably hoping he would find a sign. But they said they looked inside and out. They looked all over this poor man– 

Em: Annoying. 

Christine: –and he had not been shot. Um, so that’s just nuts to me that you could say that the cause of death is, quote, “kayak drain plug intentionally remo–“ How do you know it’s intentional? Like none of that makes sense. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Anyway. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s just maddening. Um, it’s just w-wild. So the defense gets, of course, a kayak expert to testify, right? This guy’s name is Todd Wright. H– Uh, they basically– He basically points out that when police did testing– ’cause they did tests where, when they finally figured out what this drain plug thing was– It’s this small hole on top of– And you don’t want it to be missing, to be fair. Like you– ’Cause water will get in there, but typically water comes like from the side into the– cabin? I have no idea. 

Em: [chuckles] Wow. 

Christine: Uh, question mark? 

Em: Mechanic over here. 

Christine: Oh, yeah, you know me. 

Em: Mechanic Christine. 

Christine: So Todd was like, “When the police did this, they were like clearly–“ You could watch the– He was watching the footage. He’s like, “You could clearly see they’re trying to splash water into the fucking hole to get the boat to fill up.” Like they’re like– 

Em: Like– 

Christine: –forcefully– He’s like, “This is not how a person would kayak.” He didn’t say it quite like that. 

Em: It’s not how she did it, and it’s not how– 

Christine: It's not how he did it. Come on. 

Em: Even if she wanted to kill him and that was how, wouldn’t he be like, “What are you doing? This is stupid.” 

Christine: Well, well, he was in his own kayak, so it’s like– 

Em: Oh, right, right, right. 

Christine: –he was the only one controlling his kayak. So it’s like– 

Em: Right, so there’s no way. 

Christine: It’s just a strange thing to– It’s just strange. Um, so this Todd guy says, “No, this, this tiny hole–” Oh, oh, the police also – I forgot about this part – had, um, like motorboats, like power boats going by really fast to try and create wake to splash into the hole to fill the boat. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: And it’s like, “If you have to have like motorboats driving around in circles around you to try and get enough wave action–“ 

Em: If you– Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: It’s just silly. It’s just silly. Don’t be ridiculous. 

Em: At this point, they’re not actually investigating. They’re forcing a narrative like they’re– 

Christine: Yes, exactly. And it’s like they’re clinging to it, but– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –like let the fuck go, you know. As far as I’m concerned, again, I don’t, I don’t quite know what’s going on, but– The water was 44.5 degrees. He has, uh, what is apparently a pretty lame quality pond kayak, not really suitable for like the Hudson. Um, he had no wetsuit. Not only that, he had no life jacket. Um, he’d had several beers– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –in his cooler. They’d found several empty Mike’s Harder Lemonades in there. Um, his blood alcohol was around 0.066, which is legally impaired in New York State, but not like trashed. Um, but still, you know, the weather picks up. Um, he’s not wearing a life vest. One thing goes wrong, he’s in the water. It’s 44 degrees in there. I don’t know. I just– I don’t find it that shocking of a scenario. 

Em: Me either. 

Christine: Um, and I don’t see how Angelika could have plotted that– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –unless she literally physically pushed him over. You know what I mean? Like or did something like really aggressive or assertive. But it seems like the, the claim that she just had removed a plug on the top and that’s what killed him? Like there’s no way that would have– It’s a dumb– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –plan, [chuckles] and it wouldn’t have worked, you know. It’s just weird. Um– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: Anyway, so before the case was set to go to trial, Angelika took a plea deal, and she agreed to plead guilty to the lesser felony charge of criminally negligent homicide. Um, she basically admitted that “she should have perceived the risks” associated with the situation, um, but claims to this day that she had n-never wanted Vincent dead, had nothing to do with his death, um, was not intentional. But she was sentenced to four years, um, which is the maximum sentence for that charge. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: And Vincent’s family still blames her to this day. Um– 

Em: What? For– Okay. 

Christine: Oh, well, they never liked her anyway, so don’t worry about it. It’s a whole thing. 

Em: Stupid. Okay. 

Christine: I just– I mean, I, I can understand like, “Okay, you feel like she should have done something, said something,” but it’s like he’s 42 or 47 or whatever. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like he’s old enough to know not to go in the water without a life jacket. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And like the plug had nothing to d– Like I mean, it didn’t have nothing to do with it maybe, but it didn’t cause the situation– 

Em: No. 

Christine: –you know. But she got four years. Um– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: And what strikes me honestly about this case is that she was so fundamentally misunderstanding of how– of what was happening like in the c– in the interrogation room, um, from cultural diff-differences, like I– whether she was naive– Um, she had no clue she could just leave. She even said, uh, like the thought never crossed her mind that she could leave. 

Em: Well, sure. 

Christine: And– 

Em: She grew– She came from an area where, I guess, the, the police are on your side, so why would you not– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –work with them? 

Christine: Or at least on her side. Right, exactly. And she said, “I thought that by speaking and telling them everything that I knew that I would just clear it up. I wouldn’t need a lawyer, and I would be free. But boy, was I naive.” Um, she was released from prison on December 21, 2017 after serving about 16 months and, understandably, lives a quiet life– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and maintains that she never wanted Vincent dead. And you can clearly tell where I fall in this case, but it took me like several episodes to– ’Cause you hear like a drain plug was pulled out and she knew about it, and you’re like, “Well, that sounds suspicious,” you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like it does. It sounds fucking sus. 

Em: Yeah, it does. I am exactly where you are, Christine. I am on board with you. That’s crazy. 

Christine: Anyway, it just felt like this was a tragic accident in my opinion, but– 

Em: 100%. 

Christine: [sighs] Anyway, thanks, everyone, for listening. Um– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: –that was a long one, my bad. I keep doing that. 

Em: No, that was– I appreciated it. I liked it. 

Christine: And, uh, yeah, if you have any suggestions or any stories to send in for next listener episode, you can go to our website. That’s also where we list all the episodes and their numbers and their transcripts on there you can search through, so that’s really handy. Um, other than that, I don’t know that we have anything else to add, do we? 

Em: I don’t think so. I feel like, um– I got nothing. Uh, I got nothing. How about that? 

Christine: Okay, well, like add us on My– add us on MySpace. 

Em: [laughs] Oh man, I hope everyone, uh, joins Patreon just so they can listen to us fill out our MySpace questionnaires. Um, that was– 

Christine: Next week, we should discuss the, uh, the politics of the Top Eight ’cause that was– 

Em: [sighs] Oh! 

Christine: –its own like social hierarchy situation. 

Em: Do not dirty talk to me like that because I– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –would love to, and I– I would love to. All right, great. 

Christine: Good to know. 

Em: Well, we got a plan. And– 

Christine: Noted. That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink. 

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