E480 Clown Bags and Accidental Witchcraft

TOPICS: THE ALLEGAN COUNTY SHERIFF’S HOUSE & OLD JAIL MUSEUM, HARRY LACEY

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It’s Episode 480 and we’re owning our New York Times Bestseller status! Today Em brings us to Michigan for the Allegan County Sheriff’s House & Old Jail Museum and its terrifying mannequins that change themselves. Then Christine brings us a more in depth coverage of a Harry Lacey who she wrote about in A Haunted Road Atlas: Next Stop. And please don’t take your meds with the watercolor water… and that’s why we drink!

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Transcript

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[intro music]

Em: Well, well, well. Who could it be?

Christine: Look what the cat dragged in.

Em: You know, I said that recently to somebody, and I think they were too young to understand the reference, and they were like, “What are you talking about?” I mean–

Christine: What do you mean “the reference”? Isn’t it just a saying?

Em: Well, just like I don’t think they’d ever heard the saying before.

Christine: Are– Is it like– Oh no.

Em: He was 12. Um– [laughs]

Christine: Oh. [laughs] I was like, “Is it uncool now?” I mean, I, I guess, but 12-year-olds–

Em: Uh, certainly to a 12-year-old.

Christine: Okay.

Em: They were like– He was like, “What the hell are you saying?” And I– He’s this kid that’s always–

Christine: And also–

Em: –at the dog park. And so–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –when I saw him, I went, “Oh, look who the cat dragged in,” and he was like, “We’re at a dog park.” And I went–

Christine: Yeah, “What are you–“

Em: –“You’re not getting it.”

Christine: “Who’s that weird grown-up over there?” is probably what he said.

Em: [chuckles] We have a weird, we have a weird bond. It’s odd at the dog park. I feel like it’s just– Age doesn’t matter. Everyone’s just–

Christine: I love that.

Em: You see each other enough. Yeah. Anyway.

Christine: Yeah, you’re just kind of, uh, kind of all humans, you know.

Em: Mm, yeah. It was– It’s very, uh, um, utopian, I suppose–

Christine: W– Oh?

Em: –except you’re at a dog park–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –and it just smells like kind of poop all the time.

Christine: And people say weird idioms like “look what the cat dragged in.”

Em: [laughs] I know. [sighs] How are you?

Christine: Oh, [sighs] I’m still wearing my pajamas, I realized just now, from yesterday, so oops. Um–

[Christine is wearing a black short-sleeve shirt. On the left pocket area, it says “Sleepy Hollow, New York” in orange cursive.]

Em: I just went to Sleepy Hollow, speaking of your Sleepy Hollow shirt that you’re wearing.

Christine: I just realized it’s also “Sleepy” Hollow and it’s my pajamas.

Em: Oh, that’s– Is that why you got that? That’s smart.

Christine: It’s not.

Em: Oh.

Christine: And, uh– It wasn’t until this moment. And now it is. Now, retroactively, uh, it is.

Em: D– Now it has to be PJs.

Christine: Now it has to be PJs. And I’m gonna tell you, I’m drinking my Biggby’s, uh–

Em: Biggby.

Christine: –mocha. Biggby mocha. So that’s what I’m drinking. And I drink because– I don’t know, man. I’m just trying to survive. Like Uranus moves into Gemini on Saturday, and things are about to get crazy. Do you know what happened the la– Okay, listen to this. 84–

Em: I’m r–

Christine: 84 years ago– [chuckles]

Em: Okay.

Christine: When Uranus moved into Gemini 84 years ago–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –World War II.

Em: Oh?

Christine: When Uranus moved into Gemini 84 years before that, Civil War.

Em: Oh, hey.

Christine: When, uh, Gemini– Certainly couldn’t be a third one, right? Uh–

Em: Hey, stop talking. [chuckles]

Christine: –called Revolutionary– [chuckles] called Revolutionary War. Uh, this is the 250th anniversary of the United States, and as my new friend, Aliza Kelly, who was on our show and I’m now like a fan girl of and I’m so embarrassed that our relationship began with me mispronouncing her name and you having to correct me, um, she said on her podcast, “Google real quick–“ and I’d like you to try this experiment, Em, “Google real quick, uh, how long until an empire falls.” Just google that.

Em: Isn’t it every 250 years?

Christine: It sure is.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It comes right up there. It’s like that’s just kind of how history goes, you know, and so–

Em: Well, happy 250th to us. Big deal.

Christine: That’s right. That’s right. We got Revolutionary War, Civil War– I mean, just like kind of a big deal, World War II.

Em: D-Do you think people– I mean, there’s no way to know this. Do you think people who– Let’s say b– at, at the era of right before World War II or right before– do you think they also all knew this was kind of coming? Like ’cause everything you said to me doesn’t totally shock me that like something horrid might happen.

Christine: I mean, and you’re probably right because World War II obviously we didn’t enter until you know– into– until the war had begun, right? And so it’s like, sure, there was an act– but like we’re already at war, so it’s like–

Em: [chuckles] Mm.

Christine: –what could it mean? And, you know, she made a good point too like it doesn’t necessarily mean like, um, physical, like we’re all at like on– at a civil war literally on– I mean, it could, but hopefully not. Um, but, you know, like insurrection or like, um–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –uh, writing wrongs and like kind of rebelling against the system, overthrowing the system, like that kind of energy, uh, is what happens when Uranus, which is the planet of disruption, enters Gemini, which is, uh, maybe the sign of disruption as far as you and I–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –are concerned at least. Um–

Em: So it’s chaos meeting chaos. It’s–

Christine: Yeah. And it’s like really– It’s just turns shit upside down, and like it doesn’t necessarily have a plan. It just kind of like the energy goes where it needs to go, and I think we all see where the energy is going. And, um, yeah, things are about to get whack. On Saturday, that is happening, and I think we can all kind of feel that intensity. And I think it happens also on a personal level too, so just you know.

Em: Good, good, good.

Christine: As Geminis, you know we’re gonna have a lot of like–

Em: As Geminis does it mean that we are safer from this or we’re more, uh–

Christine: We’re the most affected, but it’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s more like we’ll be the most affected as far as the next several years until it changes into Cancer–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –until it moves into Cancer. Um, 2018 was the last time was– when it entered Taurus, and now it’s entering– So basically what has happened since 2018 to now, whatever Taurus, uh, is in your chart, that’s been kind of topsy-turvied–

Em: Mm?

Christine: –by Uranus, and now it’s moving to Gemini. So because it’s our Sun, Sun Sign, um, it’s gonna kind of like shine a light on a lot of things and like activate a lot of things, and it’s gonna be interesting.

Em: Horrifying.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Also like–

Christine: I’m so excited.

Em: –three of my placements are Gemini. So, um–

Christine: Are they? Okay, interesting.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: Interesting. What are– You know which ones?

Em: Only one of them is in my big three, but then the other two are kind of like further out there. I don’t, I don’t know what that means or anything, but I remember being like, “Oh my god, look at me go: Gemini, Gemini, Gemini.”

Christine: Look at you, you little twin.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Uh, yeah, yeah, it’s pretty wild stuff. So I don’t know. I mean, hopefully it just means only good, you know, change. Uh, change is needed clearly. Um–

Em: What, um– Is that why you’re drinking?

Christine: I think that is why I’m drinking. Yeah, I love that for me. I’m like super into astrology right now, and I think it’s just like– I’m lov– Oh, she has a new show by the way. Um, it’s called AstroloTea with Aliza Kelly and every, every week–

Em: Love it.

Christine: –she spills the tea, and it’s, it’s on its like second week, and it’s like kicking butt. Um, and it’s doing really awesome. It’s independent. She like moved away from the network she was on and, and started her own IP–

Em: Nice.

Christine: –and it’s really awesome. So go check it out. I’ve– I told her I would mention it at some point, and then I kept forgetting, so this is a [chuckles] perfect time. Um, but I’m also in her little coven. Like she has a coven online where people– We do like manifesta– like money manifestations that are also like ethical, which is kinda cool.

Em: Nice.

Christine: And she talks about the ethics of that. And she’s just really cool lady, so, um, yeah, check out her show.

Em: Nice. Well–

Christine: Why do you, why do you drink my friend– my Gemini friend?

Em: [sighs] I don’t know. I–

Christine: Hm.

Em: I don’t know this time around. Oh!

[Offscreen - Hank’s nails tap on the floor as he runs around suddenly.]

Em: That was my dog.

Christine: He’s like, “I know. I know.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] All that to like run and lie down, you know.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Like that made no sense at all. Um, why do I drink?

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: I, I don’t know. I feel like– I don’t know why, but I feel like things are about to get like really busy, but like I don’t have anything planned.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I don’t have any trips.

Christine: Uranus is going into Gemini on Saturday.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And I–

Em: Maybe I can sense it.

Christine: And I feel like we can sense it. And you’re psychic specifically, so like you’re probably like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Your spidey senses are probably going nuts.

Em: I– Something’s happening, but I, I don’t know what it is ’cause I don’t have anything planned–

Christine: And you know what–

Em: –but I’ve also noticed that I, I have not been planning things with people. Like there’s been a few people who have reached out and been like, “Hey, let’s get dinner,” and I keep putting off scheduling it with them because I keep thinking I’m busy, but then I look at the calendar, I’m like, “Oh, I’m not busy at all.”

Christine: Ooh, weird. You’re like holding space for something.

Em: But I don’t know what it is ’cause I would love to get dinner with them.

Christine: We might find out.

Em: But for some reason I feel really– Maybe I’m just mentally busy.

Christine: Maybe mentally bu-busy, like cluttered.

Em: I don’t know. I do feel cluttered. I don’t know why, but, um, yeah, I don’t know. I’m feeling–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –a little off these days. And then two days ago, Allison also said she was feeling off, and I was like, “Ooh, something’s in the air.”

Christine: I’m telling you, there is something in the air. And like I think I’ve been– I– Yeah. I’ve been feeling that same way of like disconcerting almost.

Em: Yeah. And I don’t know why– I feel like I’m on high alert, but I don’t know what for.

Christine: Yes. The vigil– the hypervigilance I feel like is getting wa-wacky. Um–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And I told my–

Em: Even when I’m resting, I feel like I’m like itchy to– I’m like, “What’s going on?”

Christine: Yeah, buzzy almost. Um, yeah, I’ve noticed that too. And I, I just feel like the news gets more and more absurd every day–

Em: [scoffs]

Christine: –to the point like when I see “breaking news,” I’m like, “Oh, okay. Like the Pope is arguing with the president again.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And like also like, like Trump was supposed to say d– the image was doctored, but he said, “I’m a doctor.” I mean, y-you can’t make this shit up.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like it’s so fucking stupid that it’s like, “Okay, I get it, world. I get it, universe. I get it, God or source or whatever. Like this shit is crazy.” I’m like, “Is it– What are we– Are we doing s– What are we doing?”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: What’s next? What’s the plan? It can’t sustain itself, right? Google “how long can an empire last?”. It can’t sustain itself, not with this fucking clown bag like pressing–

Em: Clown bag? Nice.

Christine: –war buttons. [laughs]

Em: “Clown bag pressing war buttons.” Now, that’s a great image. Um–

Christine: Help!

Em: –yeah, no. I, I don’t know what it is, but I’m just feeling a little weird. And I, I like I’m feeling– Like I don’t know. It feels like this should be a moment where I’m resting, but I don’t, I don’t feel rested at all even though like I’ve been sleeping a lot better lately than I have in a long time. I’m waking–

Christine: Same.

Em: I’m waking up earlier. Like I’m– Like for fun. Like I– Like before this, it– We record at 10. I woke up at like 8 and cleaned the whole house. Like what’s happening?

Christine: [gasps] Jeez.

Em: But also I just don’t feel–

Christine: Maybe your Virgo Rising is being activated.

Em: Yeah. Something, something on my to-do– my astral to-do list is, is going off.

Christine: [groans]

Em: But, um–

Christine: I need Aliza on speed dial. I wish.

Em: The, uh– Also I’ll say one of the other reasons I drink this week is because this is my last week of this ASL class before I move on to a new one.

Christine: [gasps] Oh, exciting.

Em: And s– when we– I don’t think this was like intentional, but I happened to count up all the words that we’ve had to learn throughout this, and it was–

Christine: You just happened to? [laughs]

Em: Well, I was trying to make a study guide for myself because, um–

Christine: Oh, oh, oh.

Em: –this week coming up is our, our– not a test, but it’s where we’re expected to like be speaking kind of quickly with her and all that.

Christine: And you’re a Virgo Rising so you made a– Yep.

Em: So I made a study guide–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –which, um– and we have learned 800 words–

Christine: Wow!

Em: –which is crazy. [chuckles]

Christine: That’s a lot.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. And then, um, the very next week, I’m starting my next class at a different school with different people, so I’m very nervous. I’m h–

Christine: Oh my god, you’re going to a new school.

Em: I’m going–

Christine: You’re starting at a new school.

Em: I’m going to a new school.

Christine: Are you getting a new backpack?

Em: I’m very nervous [pronounced “noy-vus”]. And I’m also– I’m upset because this will be the first time I’m taking the class without people I know because–

Christine: Aw.

Em: –all my friends joined this one with me, but now that I’m going to another school, I have to leave all my friends behind. So–

Christine: Wait, why are you– Are you like a-accelerating? Why, why are they not going with you?

Em: Uh, just because it’s– This is, this is the end of the class, but I just wanna keep doing it.

Christine: Oh, they’re just like moving on, and you’re doing– Okay, got you.

Em: Yeah, so–

Christine: I thought like they were like being held in remedial class–

Em: No.

Christine: –and I was like, “Jeez.”

Em: I, uh– No, the, the school that I do it at, which is very lovely– It’s in Burbank, and it’s, it’s literally– I mean, I’m already– I’m gonna be gone now. It’s called the Burbank Adult School, but it’s literally a school where you can like take a bunch of different courses.

Christine: That’s so neat.

Em: Um, and so– And it’s just for adults, but it’s literally– It looks like a high school. It’s very weird like walking the halls with other adults. It feels like you’re in high school.

Christine: Like redo.

Em: It’s–

Christine: You’re like cosplaying high school.

Em: It feels like I’m cosplaying high school. Um, but, uh, it’s very nice. They have, um, a lot of different categories of classes, but I’ve been trying to do like a bunch of enrichment classes. Like they also have guitar class there and stuff. So, um, it’s, it’s been a lot of fun, but I have– They don’t have any more ASL classes after this.

Christine: Mm.

Em: So I have to go to another school. So now I’m, I’m– I have to– I’m joining PCC. Very excited.

Christine: What’s that?

Em: Pasadena Community College.

Christine: Pasadena. Oh my god. How– Isn’t that where Al took woodworking?

Em: Yeah, we’re, we’re both, uh, you know, students at PCC. Not a big deal.

Christine: Oh my god, I love that. Do you– Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. Do you get a student ID?

Em: I don’t know. I haven’t looked yet. I– ’Cause I only registered last night, so.

Christine: Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. I mean, I’m taking a watercolor class, but it’s online, which is more my speed, I think.

Em: Sure.

Christine: I just, I just, um– But I love an in-person sometimes. Like I think that might be my next step, um–

Em: In-person’s been so much more helpful ’cause I know if I were doing it online–

Christine: It’s hard to keep– Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You need some structure sometimes.

Em: I would just be like, “Well, I’ll just pause it or mute it or run to the bathroom and–“

Christine: And with watercolor, it’s sort of like I’m weirdly fixated on it right now–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –so I’m doing it every single day. And it’s like if I weren’t that interested, the online class would not work, but– [laughs]

Em: Yeah, yeah. No, but–

Christine: Um–

Em: –also like that seems more peaceful like–

Christine: It is. Yes. And it’s also very like offline, like analog kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.

Em: With, um, ASL, there– there’s someone in my class that goes to the dog park, so we’ve also been practicing together, which is nice. Like it’s–

Christine: Oh, nice.

Em: I think it’s been nice to do it in-person be–

Christine: Is it that 12-year-old? [laughs]

Em: W– [chuckles] No, it’s not the 12-year-old. Imagine if I signed to him, “Look what the cat dragged in.” [laughs]

Christine: “Look what the cat dragged in.” [laughs] Here, I bet– Wait, what’s “cat”? It’s probably whiskers.

Em: “Cat” is whiskers, yeah.

[Em holds both hands in front of their face in a claw shape, palms towards them. They move their hands from their cheeks out away from the face, as if their fingers were whiskers.]

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah, whiskers. Like “look.” Is this “look”?

[Christine makes a V with her index and middle finger, moving them from pointing at her eyes to pointing at something away from her.]

Em: Uh, yeah.

Christine: I’m just like making shit up. Look what the–

Em: “Cat.”

[Em signs “cat” again.]

Christine: How do you “cat”?

Em: I don’t know what “dragged in” is.

Christine: “Cat.” Oh, I do.

Em: I know “in.”

[Em makes an upright fist with one hand with space in the middle and, pinching all of their fingers together in their other hand, places their fingers into the other hand.]

Em: I don’t know “drag.”

[Christine mimes dragging a rope towards her with both hands before pressing the fingers of one hand into the other.]

Christine: “In.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] I don’t, I don’t–

Christine: If s–

Em: I will ask, uh, my teacher on the last day.

Christine: If a grownup–

Em: “What does ‘dragged’ mean?”

Christine: Yeah, if grown-up– if a grown-up said that to me in public outside, I would be v– like, “Mom? Help?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So yeah, I get it.

Em: [sighs] Him and, him and Hank have gotten along in the past, but, um– Yeah, I ha– I– Anyway. Anyway, I’m done talking.

Christine: Anyway.

Em: That’s why I drink.

Christine: That’s why I drink.

Em: Yeah. Um, anyway, I have a story for you today.

Christine: Anyway, anyway. [laughs]

Em: I don’t know why I can’t–

Christine: Anyway. [chuckles]

Em: –just transition smoothly into anything else.

Christine: [chuckles] ’Cause I won’t let you.

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Em’s Story – The Allegan County Sheriff's House & Old Jail Museum

Em: I have a story today, and it’s in Michigan.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: And it is in an area called Allegan, Michigan.

Christine: Allegan?

Em: Yep. And–

Christine: Cool.

Em: –even better, [chuckles] it’s called–

Christine: Even better? It can’t get better than that. You, you, you can’t be serious.

Em: It’s called the Allegan [pronounced “al-again”] County Sheriff’s House and Old Jail Museum.

Christine: Okay, loving this energy already. Loving it big time.

Em: I really wish that they would come up with like a classier little name like, like–

Christine: I–

Em: –Allegan County Sher– Like that’s–

Christine: I kind of like how many words it is unironically, you know? It’s like it doesn’t really realize it’s way too many words. How do you spell Allegan?

Em: A-L-L– Hang on. A-L-L-E-G-A-N.

Christine: Oh, weird.

Em: It a– It looks like “allergy” to me.

Christine: It looks like Allegheny but without a Y.

Em: I did hear other people say Allegan [pronounced “al-lih-gen”].

Christine: Allegan. Interesting.

Em: ’Cause I would have not said it that way.

Christine: Mm-mmm. Never heard of it.

Em: Um, anyway, it is– Yeah, it’s a– the Sheriff’s House and Old Jail Museum. So what I mean by that is it’s a museum now. It was once a combined sheriff’s house and old jail ’cause, you know, the sheriff used to live in the jail.

Christine: Well, it was a jail. Now it’s an old jail.

Em: Now it’s an old jail because now–

Christine: It used to be a–

Em: –there’s a new jail.

Christine: –new jail, and now it’s an old jail.

Em: Now it’s a new museum of the old jail–

Christine: That’s exactly right.

Em: –with the old sheriff’s house in old, old, old Allegan County–

Christine: Right.

Em: –of older older Michigan.

Christine: Now, that’s a catchy title.

Em: I’ll let them know.

Christine: Thanks.

Em: So, um, this is in the historic district of Allegan. And–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –fun fact, this Sheriff’s House Old Jail Museum is built right across from– or it was built right across from the courthouse at the time. So in 1905, a courthouse was built. They needed a jail. So right across the street a year later, they made the jail so you could just walk the people to the courthouse.

Christine: Easy peasy.

Em: Easy peasy. Also I imagine things had to be walkable because it was 1905, and in my mind, that means there were no cars. So–

Christine: I, I mean back then I feel like– ’Cause I, I had done that research on Pearl Bryan. I’m– I don’t know why she’s always on my mind, which is just probably–

Em: She is.

Christine: I think about her a lot. Um, and–

Em: I’ll tell her.

Christine [chuckles] I talk to her in my head a lot. Don’t worry, she knows.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Uh, and when Alonzo Walling and Scott Jackson were hanged, they were hanged at the courthouse right near where I live. And it’s so weird because it’s still like an active courthouse, but then like–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –the gallows out front are now just like a beautiful garden. And it’s like the jail was right there too, you know, so everything used to just have a lot more heaviness, and now it’s like, “Oh, this is just the courthouse in its official capacity,” you know. Like the–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –the dirt– down and dirty stuff happens elsewhere. Um, but the, the– Yeah.

Em: It’s weird to me when a lot of gardens were once gallows and I’m like–

Christine: Yeah, it’s a–

Em: –“Now I can’t appreciate this.”

Christine: It’s like, “Isn’t this nice?” And It’s like–

Em: Like, “I don’t wanna be here now.”

Christine: –“Y-Yeah, yeah.”

Em: Um–

Christine: I do. I’m like, [whispers] “Let me sit in it.”

Em: [laughs] Uh, so the courthouse was built in 1905. Across the street, in 1906, this jail was built. Um, again, the law at the time, when jails were being built, was that the sheriff or the warden or whoever had to live in the jail with an inmate.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: What a perk of the job.

Christine: I know. That feels like such a weird like punishment–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –or like law. I don’t know.

Em: Imagine getting married to someone. You’re like, “Oh my god, he’s such a great catch. He does live in jail. He’s not an inmate.”

Christine: “He’s a ten, but–“ [chuckles]

Em: “He lives in jail.” [chuckles]

Christine: “He’s a ten, but he lives in a prison.”

Em: [laughs] Right. But all his neighbors are prisoners. Um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –so fun fact, when this jail was opened, it was considered very advanced purely because it had hot water and electric lighting.

Christine: I’ll take it.

Em: Honestly, it’s 1906. I can’t imagine you’re really getting a lot of good things, so–

Christine: You just told me there were no cars and now you’re telling me this place has electricity [chuckles] so I don’t know–

Em: [chuckles] You know what? Maybe the inmates are living high and mighty compared to everyone else.

Christine: Maybe they’re driving around in Porsches and you don’t even understand.

Em: That reminds me of, um, like the Squirrel Cage Jail–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –where a lot of the locals like freaked out because the inmates had a bathroom, like a toilet–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –and like the town didn’t–

Christine: How could they?

Em: –like usually have toilets in like the residential homes, and so they were mad that–

Christine: “You’re wasting perfectly good resources on–”

Em: They were mad that the inmates were living, uh, the, the rich and famous life because they could go poopy inside, so.

Christine: Yeah, must be nice.

Em: Ay-ai-ai. So, um, did you like how I said that? “Go poopy”? Did you like that?

Christine: You know, and it’s also like they can go poopy, but like they have to go poopy inside.

Em: They have to go poopy. I know.

Christine: They’re kind of stuck in there. They can’t go outside like you can, fucking–

Em: That’s a great point. You can go outside.

Christine: –guy with, with the great outdoors at your disposal.

Em: Yeah, you can go poopy with a view.

Christine: You can poopy with a view anywhere you want. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Go fuck yourself.

Em: Sometimes I, I’m, I’m, I’m brought back to seven years old, and it’s the funniest thing in the world to–

Christine: And then I’m like, “I’ll come too.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Like I just learned English at that age, so I’m still figuring it out, but “poopy” is one I do know at that age for sure.

Em: You know, weird to say, but, uh, when– You were the first person– I didn’t know like what to call like Hank’s undercarriage, his– and you said “weenie,” and now it has become–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –the staple of the–

Christine: I said that? When?

Em: You said it at some point. You said something about like– I think when he came on for the first time and he started licking–

Christine: Oh, I said,”Oh, his w–“ [laughs]

Em: –licking his weenie. [laughs] And so you actually named it, and so now– ’Cause I was like, “What do I call that?”

Christine: Oh, yay. What an honor.

Em: “What do I call that?”

Christine: What an honor.

Em: So anyway, now I’ve discussed poopy and weenie, so.

Christine: There's so many worse things it could be, so I’ll, I’ll take the win.

Em: I, I– Yeah. I don’t know what– I don’t know why I even said that, especially publicly on air for everyone, but–

Christine: I clearly don’t remember one mi-minute of it.

Em: If you needed a, a fun fact about yourself, you didn’t know.

Christine: I needed a little– yeah, a little ego boost. Thanks.

Em: Yeah. [sighs] Okay. How did we get here?

Christine: Nobody knows.

Em: Oh, hot water. [laughs]

Christine: What was it? Oh, hot water? [laughs]

Em: Hot water. Feel like I’m in hot water for even talking about weenies. Okay.

Christine: Pooping inside, pooping outside.

Em: So, enough bathroom talk. Don’t be disgusting, Christine.

Christine: I’m so sorry.

Em: Okay?

Christine: I can’t get my head out of that sewer.

Em: [chuckles] So, uh, when it first opened, it was very advanced ’cause it had hot water and electric lighting. And the sheriff’s quarters were in the front of the building. Makes sense that that would be where you first go before–

Christine: Sure.

Em: Imagine having to walk through the jail to get to your house. H–

Christine: Yeah, that’d be aw– You’re like, “Oh, welcome back to my place.”

Em: Yeah. Imagine the kids–

Christine: “Do you want to come in for a drink, a nightcap?”

Em: –being like, “Oh, everyone come back to my place. We do have to walk through the jail cells though.”

Christine: Yeah. “Let’s practice for the school play in my room.” And then like– [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh god. That’s–

Em: “Let’s go make slime. But first, we have to walk through–“ [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] “Let’s go watch skibidi toilet.”

Em: [laughs] Okay, I’m back to my notes. Is everyone ready? So–

Christine: I wish you would stop getting so distracted.

Em: Me too. I– This is–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: I told you, it’s a weird day. Okay, so the front of the house is the sheriff’s quarters where his whole family would live. And then, by the way, imagine being the wife of the sheriff and not only do you now have to live in jail, but also it was customary at the time that the sheriff’s wife was the one who like cooked and cleaned.

Christine: Yeah. Like had an– managerial role in the ho– in the jail.

Em: Like what a bad gig. You must really love this man.

Christine: Yeah. It’s sort of like the first lady but like the worst sort of outcome of that.

Em: But like the worst version.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And like that’s a big job.

Christine: Like the last, like the last lady.

Em: You don’t, you don’t even get to leave to go see friends. Like you’re expected there all the time. You have to cook that many meals–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –a day?

Christine: Then they gotta– It’s probably gruel.

Em: It has to be. Just the upkeep of it.

Christine: Yeah. There’s no way. That’s, that’s just unpleasant.

Em: And by the way, I’m sure she gets paid zero dollars for this.

Christine: Oh, right. Well, it’s her duty.

Em: Ah, yes.

Christine: Uh, sorry, duty. I need to f–

Em: Please, Christine.

Christine: –sharpen my vocabulary. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Um, in the sheriff’s quarters were apparently multiple parlors, so I guess he was actually living not in a that bad kind of a way. He had multiple bedrooms. He had a kitchen. He had a dining room. And then also this was just noted and like really not a big deal, but it sparked interest in me, is that he also had a keeping room, which I had not heard of. Do you know what a keeping room is?

Christine: I feel like I’ve heard that, but I don’t know off the top of my head.

Em: Apparently, it’s very common in like colonial houses.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: Um, essentially they’re just like small rooms off of the kitchen, which I thought like, oh, like a pantry–

Christine: Like a butler’s pantry type of thing?

Em: –but apparently it’s more like a– it’s kind of like a family room but attached to the kitchen.

Christine: Oh?

Em: And it’s– but it’s–

Christine: Like a mud room? No.

Em: Maybe– The purpose of it– It’s like the size of a mud room, it sounds like, but the purpose of it was to like keep family warm back when like houses would only have one fireplace. I guess the fireplace would be in there, and it would kind of keep you warm, which is how we got “keeping.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, but it would keep you warm, and you were close enough to the kitchen that you could still, uh, like, uh, keep the people who were cooking– like either the hosts if you were a guest in the house or your parents, they would be cooking and you could keep them company while also staying warm but staying out of their way in the kitchen.

Christine: [laughs] I love th– whatever the hell that is. That’s hilarious.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I wanna know the reason behind why such a thing was needed. Like–

Em: I have no idea.

Christine: –the kids are under foot? Like I, I don’t know.

Em: I don’t totally understand it. I tried looking at, at a few different like sources about it. And then the, the company that gave me the, the best information was Southern Living about like how–

Christine: Oh, that’s funny.

Em: –keeping houses are coming back.

Christine: Oh, they’re coming back? Oh, why?

Em: I guess so.

Christine: It sounds like a panic room when it’s cold out.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I don’t understand.

Em: Well, I think– Like my understanding– If I moved into a house and it had a keeping room, it, it’s apparently much more common these days that it becomes like a little room where like you can be in the kitchen but also keep an eye on your kid when they’re doing homework or like–

Christine: Oh, so it’s sort of like what the– like the modern day equivalent of like, oh, you have like a little kitchen table and you sit at the kitchen table–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and like talk to your parents while they c– make breakfast or like do your homework.

Em: Sure.

Christine: Okay. So it’s sort of like that like ancillary space that’s not like a dining room.

Em: Right.

Christine: Okay, that does make sense. I understand that. Yeah.

Em: It’s like a little sitting space where you’re–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –in the kitchen but not in the kitchen.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that makes sense.

Em: A lot of people also keep like supplies in there or, like you said, like a desk to write. I mean, I’m taking that straight out of Southern Living.

Christine: Did I say that?

Em: I mean–

Christine: Oh, you’re like, “like you said,” and I’m like– And then you say, “I, I took that straight out of Southern Living.” I was like, “Thank you.”

Em: Oh, well, you, you were saying like, um– I can’t remember what you were saying it. It– Just take the compliment.

Christine: It was probably pretty smart though. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. It was really actually the smartest thing you’ve ever said.

Christine: Thank you.

Em: So they had a keeping room, fun fact, um, along with their parlors and whatnot and the jail in the back. By ending up, um– or w-what– So, so by going through the front half, half of the house, you’re in the sheriff’s rooms, and then when you get to the back, there are three floors of cells, including solitary confinement.

Christine: Mm.

Em: So it shifts really quickly.

Christine: Clearly.

Em: I wonder if like– I wonder what the entrance into the jail looks like. Like is there like a middle room, like a mud room between them where like–

Christine: A keeping room?

Em: I, I would hope that there’s something to like make sure that it’s all locked up tight–

Christine: I mean, it f–

Em: –so when you go to bed they can’t just waltz in, you know?

Christine: Yeah, it feels like they’re making it very clear the delineation between the– this guy and the prisoners. Like I think they’re making the delineation very clear. So you’re right, there mu– there’s probably some sort of buffer, like barrier.

Em: Like it goes from carpet to linoleum to concrete, you know?

Christine: Totally. Yeah, there’s no way that there’s not like a, a middle, a middle zone.

Em: There’s gotta be. Um, so one of the solitary confinement cells– This like– This got mentioned in only one source, and I was like, “Why are we not talking about this everywhere else?” One of the solitary confinement cells is connected to the furnace–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and was known as “the Hot Box.”

Christine: Agh!

Em: Because it was a, quote, “punishing sauna.”

Christine: Agh!

Em: The only place I’ve seen this is on CatDog, and they ended up in like an outhouse that they got–

Christine: Wait, CatDog– Wait. Oh, I thought you meant that was a s– like the source where you got that information.

Em: No. Well, the, the first time I ever saw that was in an episode of CatDog where they like get like their– I mean, it says “punishing sauna,” but it was like you’re, you’re sentenced to sweat basically.

Christine: I hate that. And that show used to scare me a little bit.

Em: I loved CatDog.

Christine: I did too, but it really–

Em: I hated that episode though. I still think about it. I’m like–

Christine: I know. I think that–

Em: –terrible.

Christine: Like some sensory stuff from that show really stuck with me.

Em: Like being sewn to a cat.

Christine: There’s that one for sure.

Em: Okay.

Christine: For sure, for sure.

Em: The top two floors, um, are just for the main population, but the basement cells were where I guess hardened criminals or more violent criminals went. I’m assuming that’s also where the Hot Box was. I can’t imagine. That just sounds so fucking terrible, which I guess is the point.

Christine: It’s fucking ins– I, I hate also that it like kind of seemingly happened by accident. Like they built the solitary confinement, and one just happened to be by the furnace–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and they were like, “Perfect.” Like ugh.

Em: That sounds just so bad.

Christine: Ugh.

Em: Um, the– So the top two floors, main population. When I say the ba– the basement had more like violent criminals– I don’t know if violent is the right word, but just more– people who’ve committed more major crimes I guess because most of the inmates at this jail were petty criminals.

Christine: Okay, okay.

Em: Which I guess is– That’s– If I were a sheriff and I had to live in a jail, I would sign up for the one where I’m living with the petty criminals and not like violent criminals and I– there, there’s a door between us at home, you know.

Christine: Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Like maybe larceny, not like–

Em: Murder.

Christine: –mur-murder.

Em: Like and, and this was 1906, so some of the petty criminals were like insanely petty.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Like insanely not even a crime. Like–

Christine: Like, “Oh, you’re an orphan. That’s a crime.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “Get into our jail.”

Em: One of them was like l-living with somebody out of wedlock.

Christine: Right, right, right.

Em: Like hell, I’ll keep the door open between us and the jail at that point.

Christine: Now you can live in my house out of wedlock–

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: –’cause my house is a jail.

Em: Um, another one was shoplifting. One was being drunk. Criminal mischief, which is vague and mysterious, and I love it.

Christine: Love that.

Em: Having debt. Like I mean, these are all people that have probably been in my house. You know what I’m saying? Um–

Christine: Yeah, yeah. You live in a right, right– a right old jail, a veritable jail.

Em: I mean, sure, I’ll take it.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I’ve invited all those people into my house before. So in 1962, which is only, I don’t know, like 56, 58 years, um– after only that amount of time, the jail was starting to show its age, which is interesting because they’d done renovations since. When they first started the jail, there were only spots for 60 inmates–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and then by the end, it was like nearing like 200.

Christine: Oh, wow.

Em: So they clearly renovated, but it was still out of shape. I don’t understand.

Christine: Maybe that was overcrowding though.

Em: Maybe.

Christine: Like–

Em: But I, I did, I did read that like eventually their max capacity was–

Christine: Oh, interesting.

Em: –or maybe it was like at, at max capacity. I don’t know.

Christine: Maybe they like added an addition but then like the whole thing just– I don’t know. Maybe– Okay. Well, if you think about it, it was built in, what, 1905?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And they added like electricity and water for that time period.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like imagine 60 years later how much that would have to be like torn out and redone. [chuckles] Like–

Em: You’re totally right. I didn’t even think about that that–

Christine: Im– Early electricity, you’d have to like someh– I mean, not that I know anything about it, but.

Em: I mean, the laws absolutely should– had to have changed at some point that like–

Christine: I imagine the technology alone you’d have to really gut the whole place.

Em: Yeah, that’s a great point. I hadn’t even thought about that. Um, so for whatever reason, we, we had seen growth, but it was now at beyond max capacity, and the building was getting older. So at that point, they were like, “Well, should we just build a new jail?” Which I feel like if on– less than 60 years ago, you were building this thing, put a little more time into it. But whatever. That’s just me.

Christine: I mean, I just feel like they must have not done a very good job. Like 60 years is not a long time for a place to be falling apart to the point you gotta make a new one. Like what are you doing?

Em: I agree. Maybe in 1906 they were just kind of slapsticking this thing together.

Christine: Right? Maybe they didn’t think it was gonna be– I feel like this always happens in those old towns where like it– the first jail, they were like, “Oh, we thought there would be one criminal in town.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And it’s like, “Girl, what?”

Em: Well, they thought only 60 people, and I guess it was–

Christine: Exactly.

Em: But also again, because it’s petty crime, it’s like, “Well, were any of them really criminals–“

Christine: Then stop arresting them, you weirdos.

Em: “–or were you just shoving people in there?”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, at the same time, speaking of things changing, the law changed where sheriffs no longer had to live in–

Christine: Oh, thank god.

Em: –in the jail.

Christine: Imagine being the last sheriff who had to, and you’re like, “What the fuck?”

Em: [laughs] Or imagine, uh, the people who’ve been living in the like solitary confinement or the Hot Box or the normal cells–

Christine: Ugh.

Em: –and then all of a sudden, the sheriff leaves and that doubles the square footage, and now people get to live where the parlor was.

Christine: In the parlor, in the, in the greeting room or waiting room or whatever the fuck.

Em: I know they would have just put cell, cells up, but I’m sure there was some sort of like– Those were at least the updated cells or the cleaner cells or the– I don’t–

Christine: Yeah, I’m sure that was the renovated part of the building. Also, I’m so sorry. I have like– Remember when I said these were pajamas? I realized I had a toothpaste stain on my shirt, and then remember when–

Em: Those are the worst. They look the worst.

Christine: And then when you, when you rub it and it like gets worse, so now everyone who’s seen me kind of surreptitiously trying to get rid of it, it’s now like bigger. Um, I apologize. It is toothpaste. So I’m just gonna stop–

Em: Well, now everyone’s gonna go back and just– in the timecode and just watch it slowly get worse.

Christine: I’m s– It’s really a lot of scratching on my shirt. I’m sorry, and I’m gonna stop touching it now. Okay, here we go.

Em: You’re good. Well, at any rate, in– by the 1960s, they were like, “Okay, new jail time. We don’t want this one anymore.”

Christine: [chuckles] “Oops.” Okay.

Em: And so they, at this point– which is so funny, that early on the reason they built the jail here was because there was a courthouse across the street.

Christine: Right.

Em: Now the courthouse has been demolished, and so when they needed a new jail, they just built it across the street on top of where the old courthouse was.

Christine: Right.

Em: So I think that’s fun. That it was like, oh, now the jail is where the courthouse was, and the only reason the courthouse was here and the jail was there– Anyway, like can we not move from this fucking street? Do they have one street in Allegan?

Christine: It j– It– I mean, maybe that– they were like, “Let’s just– We own the property,” you know?

Em: I guess so. They’re like, “Let’s just keep it going.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “Law and order over here.”

Christine: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Em: So a year later, um, in 1963 or 1964, the Allegan County Historical Society took over the jail that was sitting abandoned now across from the now new jail.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: And they were like, “Well, this is a great place for us to run our historical society from–“

Christine: I see.

Em: “–so we’re gonna turn this into a museum.” So it’s not just a museum–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –of the jail, although that’s included because the cells are literally fucking there.

Christine: Right. You kind of have to.

Em: But they’re– They– I think they originally just took it on to preserve the jail, but since they were a historical society and wanted to have a place to keep all their like preserved documents and collections, they were like, “Well, we have this whole building.” So it ended up turning into a jail exhibit, sheriff’s home exhibit, and then also the literal 10,000 items they’ve collected about the county’s history is also on display here.

Christine: So it’s like the whole town’s museum–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –or county’s.

Em: With like–

Christine: Wow.

Em: And sprinkled into like the fact that this was a jail.

Christine: Wow. Okay.

Em: Um, and fun fact, since this place closed, it’s also been used as like a filming location a few times, but–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –they were not projects I’d heard of, so. Maybe I’m just bad at movie history, but I didn’t write any of the projects down.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Wasn’t interesting to me. Sorry, everyone.

Christine: Clearly.

Em: Um, so the museum shows the sheriff’s quarters. I think– I don’t– I, I wanna say like as it was, but I don’t think that’s true. I think they just kind of have left some of the rooms to look like what the quarters would have looked like, and then they use that as the area to exhibit all of their collection as a historical society.

Christine: Oh, okay, okay.

Em: And then the jail itself, um, they’ve restored– I don’t know about restored, but they’ve touched up two of the– the two main floors, but in the–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –on the basement floor where the solitary confinement cells were, they did not touch that. So like all the carvings into the walls are the same.

Christine: Oh, spooky.

Em: Um, including there’s like this old scratching above one of the cell doors that says “home sweet home.”

Christine: Yuck.

Em: Agreed. Um, so a lot of the jails– or the jail cells look as they did–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –and they actually have one set up as what it would have looked like in 1906 when the jail opened, like what the OG cell would have looked like.

Christine: Now, that’s interesting.

Em: And then they actually turned some of the other cells into like little sets, which I don’t know how I feel about that, but it’s kind of, I imagine, cool. They probably had to do it for the, the gimmick of getting people in there. Um, they turned some of them into sets of what other areas of town would have looked like also in the early 1900s.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: So I’m kind of okay with it.

Christine: That’s awesome.

Em: So one of the cells is like a barber shop in 1900. Another one is, uh, an attorney’s office, a dentist office, a school room.

Christine: That’s such a clever idea.

Em: I think if I were running a historical society and I wanted people to actually come see what life looked like 100 years ago–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –and you have a whole building, I get why they would have been like– And the cells are individual rooms, you know.

Christine: Mm-hmm. That's really cool.

Em: Um, if I were the ghost that– of the jail, the inmate that lived in that one room, I’d be like, “[sighs] I can’t even sleep in here anymore ’cause now it’s a barbershop.”

Christine: I’d be like, “Hell yeah. Now it’s– Now I’ve got a reclining dental chair in here.”

Em: True. Or maybe they’re like, “At least a change of scenery.”

Christine: And some quilts or something, yeah.

Em: [chuckles] You’ve convinced me, alright.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: I will say the– one of the sets is like an old courtroom. I think, I think it’s–

Christine: Also I hope those prisoners are not like in the afterlife– I know sometimes they are still there, but like get out of there, hopefully. Get out of there.

Em: Hopefully the doors are at least open. They know they can walk out.

Christine: Please.

Em: I, I would hope. Um, in the set that looks like an old courthouse, which I think– or courtroom, I think it’s supposed to look like how the original 1905 courthouse across the street looked.

Christine: Okay.

Em: But, this is a fun fact and it’s also a quote, “in the old courtroom setup is a record book listing the verdicts and the sentences of each person convicted” at the jail.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Isn’t that fun?

Christine: That’s really interesting.

Em: It’s certainly fascinating ’cause then you can at least see like–

Christine: That’s really cool.

Em: –“Oh, this person was here because of this thing.”

Christine: That’s really cool.

Em: And on top of it, um, the historical society keeps a lot of antiques here from the county’s history, although some of them are odd. Um–

Christine: Tell me more.

Em: One of them is like a Victrola player. One of them, uh– Some of them are like World War II uniforms, um, which I’m sure have a lot of energy to them.

Christine: Mm.

Em: There’re also mannequins, which immediately freaks me out.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: One of them, this is a quote, um, they have “debris from an 1865 ship that sunk in the area where all the passengers died.”

Christine: Oh, jeez.

Em: And then another one, this is another quote, “Civil War art made with human hair.”

Christine: [gasps] [chuckles] Jesus.

Em: So you can see we’re very quickly turning into like this is spooky as shit.

Christine: Yeah. We’re getting into like some accidental witchcraft situations here.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. And, and the, the hair, I will say, they, they think that the hair is from like people who the artist loved.

Christine: Right. Like some people would make like dolls or, or things like that.

Em: So it is a very witchcraft, like you said. It’s not like just random hair.

Christine: Can– Di– Have y– [chuckles] Have you seen that meme c– that I– I just saw the other day. It was like, “Oh, you don’t believe in witchcraft? Okay, give me a lock of your hair.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I was like, “I’m gonna start saying that.” “Okay, give me, give me.” [laughs]

Em: I, uh– You know what? I love it.

Christine: “Give me, give me.”

Em: So all of this– Oh, okay. I was right. All of this is in the sheriff’s home area, so the front of the building–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –which again makes sense if you want people to see it immediately – here’s all the antiques. And then when you go back further into the jail, you can see all the old cells, um, and then the exhibits in the jail cells. So during the jail’s 60 years, there were five deaths inside, although I did not see anywhere what those causes of death were.

Christine: Mm.

Em: I’m assuming they were inmates, but they could have also been like the sheriff or his wife died in the house, so.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, and so that is what leads us into the ghosts. So in the front half where the sheriff lived, uh, people hear footsteps, specifically in the sheriff’s bedroom.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: People also see an apparition working in the kitchen and the dining room. Um, and apparently, this apparition has also set off motion detectors by itself. Yuck.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: It’s thought to be a wife of the sheriff– of a sheriff that was– that lived there because, again, she was supposed to do all the cooking.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: For some reason we– not for some reason, I have a reason. But, um, a lot of people, although we don’t know which wife of a sheriff we think it could be, the best guess is the wife of Sheriff Runkel. Crazy name.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, and her name was Elsie Runkel. And we think it was her because her stove is still in the kitchen.

Christine: Oh, so maybe she’s like attached to that somehow.

Em: Exactly. And at the time, like I said, it was customary for her to be doing all the cooking. Apparently, someone did the math, and her time as the sheriff’s wife living there, she would cook on average 24,000 meals a year.

Christine: Like this is what I’m saying. Like don’t–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Like get her out of there. Like she doesn’t need to be–

Em: [chuckles] She can’t be happy.

Christine: –attached to this fucking stove. Oh my–

Em: Also Sheriff Runkel, if you love her, don’t, don’t make her live there. Make her go somewhere else.

Christine: God, get her out of there now th–

Em: Don’t marry her.

Christine: I hope she like is out of there now. I hope it’s just residual, you know?

Em: Yeah. Can you imagine? Like you made 24,000 meals a year–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –probably didn’t get paid, you had to live in a jail for love, and then you like–

Christine: For love. [chuckles]

Em: –and now you’re still there? Oh my god.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Forever?

Em: El-Elsie’s a glutton for punishment, I tell you.

Christine: Seriously.

Em: Um, so– and so people think that it’s Elsie when they see an apparition going through the kitchen and dining room for good reasons. However, remember this is also like essentially an antique display now where–

Christine: True.

Em: –a bunch of people could be connected to things in that house.

Christine: Especially like the tragedies and the shipwreck, I mean.

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, throughout the building, people also– or especially in the jail cells, I’ll say. People feel really uneasy in the cells. Although I would argue anyone would ’cause you’re in a fucking jail cell.

Christine: Mm.

Em: People hear voices, um, on EVPs but also just as clear as day. Horrifying.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: And it seems that some of the mannequins are haunted, um, which I’m gonna get to in a second, but I wanna finish this first. Uh, throughout, uh, the building, people also hear– or see streaks of light. Uh, batteries die and equipment. People have been grabbed in the cells by cold hands.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Um, people have felt faint and dizzy. And, uh, now I’m gonna tell you about this mannequin. I just wanted to get through the other stuff first. So one mannequin in particular is in the sheriff’s bedroom.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And when people are near it– Uh, it’s child-sized, by the way.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: People hear footsteps running around it, like a child’s running around it.

Christine: That’s what I was afraid of ’cause I remember you saying footsteps, and I was like, “Tell me it’s not connected to this fucking mannequin.” Oh my god.

Em: Or the clothes it’s wearing or something.

Christine: [sighs]

Em: Um, but people hear childlike footsteps running around this child-sized mannequin.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And when they’ve looked at the mannequin and then gone downstairs or something and came back, the mannequin is wearing different fucking clothes, Christine.

Christine: No! This is like Robert the Doll. I don’t like it.

Em: That’s some Annabelle shit.

Christine: [in a robotic voice] Robert did it.

Em: [in a robotic voice] Robert did it. Um, literally, I cannot actually imagine being alone. I–

Christine: Forget it.

Em: And like– And you know what? Sue me. I’m volunteering for the community as a member of the historical society, and all of a sudden, the mannequins are changing their own clothes upstairs?

Christine: Forget it. Is this some sort of reality show, like Punk’d? Like get me out of here.

Em: And just like that, I’m no longer on the historical society.

Christine: I gave zero shits all of a sudden about the history of this beautiful town.

Em: It’s, it’s that simple. Um, one investigator actually found the mannequin inside– She was like, she was like, “Oh, I wonder where the mannequin is. I wonder if it’s been moved.” We don’t know how or what happened. And it could have been as, as simple as another staff member did this, but she’s like, “Where’s that mannequin?” And, um, she’s actually, sorry, she’s not a, a, a staff member. She is one of the paranormal investigators that has been there a few times. She’s like, “Where’s that mannequin?” And she found it locked in a closet with a chair underneath the door knob as if someone tried to lock it in.

Christine: No! No!

Em: And I don’t know what’s worse if there’s like a ghost that locked its own mannequin–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –in the closet or a person saw something so scary–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –it locked it in there.

Christine: And didn’t even bother like sticking around to explain it. Yeah. Forget it.

Em: She literally was like– Oh, oh my god. Horrified.

Christine: Oh god. God.

Em: Um, like it’s just eerie alone just to be like, “Why did someone have to lock this in? What were you so scared of?”

Christine: You better believe I see a d– a chair under a doorknob, I’m not finding out if the mannequin’s behind it.

Em: There’s no– I don’t care–

Christine: I’m not finding out. Somebody else fucking find out.

Em: I never need to know.

Christine: Nope.

Em: If I saw a chair with a– a door with a chair underneath the doorknob, I’d go–

Christine: In a haunted house, I don’t–

Em: –“Probably made a good point.”

Christine: Nah. Yep. Got it. Got the message.

Em: You’re probably on to something.

Christine: Yep. Got– [chuckles] You’re on to something. I trust you. I trust your judgment.

Em: [chuckles] Um, so the same investigator, her name is Kathy, by the way. We love her. She– By the way–

Christine: Love it.

Em: –if Kathy– Kathy Conder is her name.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: If you hear this, thank you for, um, talking about this place because the article that interviewed you was the one I got the most information out of.

Christine: Oh, I love that.

Em: Everything else was not so good.

Christine: Kathy, thank you.

Em: Kathy really, uh, hooked me up with some good, good stories here. So one thing Kathy did another time she was investigating, she found an old sailor’s navy cap on the floor, and she learned later that it was Sheriff Runkel’s.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And she like found it in the middle of the floor in the room–

Christine: Eugh!

Em: –by itself.

Christine: Okay. She’s clearly got some– She’s getting a– like some connections to this house. You know what I mean?

Em: [sighs] Yeah.

Christine: Like a lot is happening to her.

Em: Well, the even creepier part is like, okay, so she found his hat, and she was like, “Well, okay, he was a sheriff here. Okay, that makes sense that his hat would be here.” But, um, around the same time, this is a quote, “staff found the same sheriff,” Sheriff Runkel’s, “portrait had fallen off a wall with the glass smashed.”

Christine: Like what does he want?

Em: Yeah, he’s clearly trying to say something–

Christine: That’s what– Yeah.

Em: –and I don’t actually know if I’m interested in hearing it.

Christine: I– That’s right. It’s like thanks but no thanks, I think.

Em: Like, “Oh, your portrait just threw itself off the wall. The glass shattered, and now your hat is just sitting in the middle of a room for someone to walk up to?” Nah.

Christine: Again, it’s like, “You probably had a point. I trust your judgment. I’m gonna leave it at that and walk away,” you know?

Em: [chuckles] I would just go, “You’re right. Whatever you need to– you–“

Christine: “You are right.”

Em: “Whatever you’re talking about, you’re right.”

Christine: Yup.

Em: Um, people also apparently experience activity at all hours. It does not matter if you’re in the jail cells or if it’s dark out or if the lights are off. Kathy literally said, “The sun really doesn’t keep paranormal activity quiet.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Horrifying.

Christine: You’re never safe.

Em: I think in the article she also said something about how like she’s never been there and sh– these are– I’m getting all these stories from her, but in the interview, I think she said she’d never actually been there when it was dark. So this is all happening during the fucking day.

Christine: Okay. Well, then maybe I would open the closet with the chair underneath it.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I w– I think I would if–

Em: Sick.

Christine: I know. I think if the sun were out I would do it.

Em: I’d slip you a $10 and say, “Have fun and tell me what you see.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be the circumstance. Yeah, for sure.

Em: She did say– She also said that she’d been in the– or maybe she’d been in the house when it was darker, but she’d never been in the jail cells at night or something, but she was like, “I don’t need to. I’ve seen enough. I know what’s going on.”

Christine: Oh, okay. Yeah, it’s enough in the daytime.

Em: The most common ghost here, though, is a little girl that is–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –seen and heard throughout the front and the back of the museum.

Christine: Maybe she locked the little boy mannequin in the closet.

Em: Well, you know what’s crazy? I don’t– ’Cause I associate her with the sound of a little kid running around that mannequin–

Christine: Running.

Em: –and like maybe playing dress up with the mannequin–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and that’s why the, the clothes are changing.

Christine: And if it’s a little kid mannequin, maybe she’s like playing with the kid, like playing with what looks like a kid. Oh, jeez.

Em: Yeah, or she’s like pretending like she’s getting it dressed up for her–

Christine: Or playing dress up, yeah.

Em: –or something.

Christine: That I think makes more sense than the mannequin having a– Whatever. Anyway, go on.

Em: It’s certainly scarier when I’m like, “Oh, this mannequin changes itself,” abso-fucking-lutely not.

Christine: 100%.

Em: But if there’s– If the most common ghost is a little girl–

Christine: That makes total sense, Em.

Em: –and you’re stuck in that house for li– ever?

Christine: That she’s like playing dress up or changing it or running around, and then she knows like it’ll get attention. People will be like, “What is that?”

Em: That’s a– such a–

Christine: Mm.

Em: Sorry, I just, um, swallowed my own spit. That was crazy.

Christine: Cute.

Em: Um, in case anyone heard it, that was what was going on.

Christine: I heard it.

Em: Okay. Um, [chuckles] I think that that’s probably most likely what’s happening, that like she’s just entertaining herself for eternity since she can’t leave.

Christine: That theory makes sense to me.

Em: I wonder though– Well, we’re about to find out. I don’t have to wonder. I literally did these fucking notes. Okay.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Um, she is known to follow people around. One of the other members of the historical society – his name is Scott – and he has said that she’s nine years old, and she is quote, “very mischievous–“

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “–running around and pulling on clothing.”

Christine: Oh?

Em: Which makes me feel like– I mean, she’s yanking on people’s shirts, but if she’s mischievous–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –running around–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –pulling on clothing, sh– People hear footsteps running–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –the clothing changing on the mannequin–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –and she’s very mischievous, that would be something that a mischievous kid does.

Christine: It’s literally all the three things. Yep.

Em: He like just described her.

Christine: Yep.

Em: Um, Scott goes on, and I wish he hadn’t because–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –I guess they were asking like, “Oh, how do you think this little girl came to be here? Like was she a sheriff’s daughter? What happened?”

Christine: Right.

Em: Scott says, and this is a quote ’cause I wasn’t gonna rewrite this: “Well, an old Bible was donated to the museum, and unbeknownst to the donator, we found an envelope pressed inside,” of the Bible, “and inside the envelope was a flower and a lock of hair.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “And it’s believed the hair belonged to the little girl because written on the outside of the envelope was, ‘Dear little so-and-so, a flower from her grave.’”

Christine: What the F?

Em: So they think that it’s her, that that’s how she’s got here.

Christine: And does it say “dear little so-and-so”?

Em: So, so-a– so-and-so is I think, um, the redacted name of the girl.

Christine: Understood. Okay, okay, okay.

Em: Although he went on later to say that people who have investigated have– ’Cause he knows the name. He just hasn’t said it publicly.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: But investigators have come to him and accurately guessed her name later after investigating.

Christine: Oh, okay, okay.

Em: So it sounds like she is chatty and–

Christine: There’s an ac–

Em: –willing to share her name.

Christine: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Okay. Interesting.

Em: I do like that they have that little litmus test on like how good is this investigation crew?

Christine: Yeah, and like–

Em: Like, “I’m not gonna tell you the name, you tell me what it is.”

Christine: “Is the intel correct?” Yeah. Ooh.

Em: But so they think that’s how she got here, which I love that she showed up in the building and she was like, “What can I do to kill time?” And she found that mannequin and went, “Great. I’m a seamstress. I’m a fashionista.”

Christine: “Step aside.”

Em: “Move out of my goddamn way.”

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: So she– they were like trying to figure out, “Okay, well, what’s a little– who’s a little girl that died in the area? Because we only have her hair. We don’t know how she died though.” And I guess there’s records on, um, a few years before the jail opened actually. There was– There’s a lake nearby, and a little girl drowned.

Christine: Mm.

Em: So they’re guessing that it’s that girl, but we really don’t have evidence of that. Um, and she’s also been caught on camera. People have seen her near– one of the antiques they have is a doll collection.

Christine: Oh my gosh.

Em: So she’s like hanging out with the dolls. She’s playing dress up. She’s having a goddamn blast, actually.

Christine: Yeah, she’s clearly having a fun time.

Em: Um, people also hear her on EVP. They always hear a little girl voice. And people have even heard her in real time saying things like, “Behind you,” “Right here,” and “I’m sick.”

Christine: Oh, honey.

Em: Um, although staff have tried to keep her name private, investigators have been able to guess it when she, quote, “told them.” And one thing I do appreciate about the historical society besides keeping her name private is that they do not hide away from the fact that this place has ghosts. They actually have said–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –that they think around seven spirits are always there.

Christine: Whoa.

Em: And they have allowed paranormal events to be hosted there. They always make sure to say goodbye on their way out for the night because they don’t want anything following them home. So they’re, they’re big believers. Love that. Um, and that is the Allegan County Sheriff’s House and Old Jail Museum.

Christine: Wow. I like that. That’s one of the ones I would investigate ’cause there’s no like portal that’s gonna make me feel depressed for the rest of my life or whatever–

Em: Agreed.

Christine: –some of these other places have. Like it feels like they’re just human spirits.

Em: Yeah. They’re just hanging.

Christine: Like kind of causing some mischief.

Em: And you know what’s interesting is it sounds like the– If there are spirits of inmates, they stay in the jail cell area. I wonder if they do still think they’re locked in there.

Christine: Hm.

Em: Because nothing up front has sounded scary at all. But then again, the, the inmates weren’t necessarily violent or anything. They were like living together out of wedlock. So maybe they’re also upfront, and we just don’t know who’s who.

Christine: Maybe. And maybe there’s just like the general energy of some of those people kind of lingering, manifesting–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –not like real people stuck there. Let’s hope. [chuckles]

Em: Yeah, let’s hope.

Christine: Let’s hope anyway.

Em: Let’s hope.

Christine: Um, nice. Okay, awesome. Well, I’m gonna pee, as usual. Um, I actually have something today. I found for Yappy Hour–

Em: Oh, fun.

Christine: I found, uh– I was doing some research on my ne– on my house, and I found a very funny like newspaper clipping of somebody–

Em: Get out.

Christine: –who lived in my house, and I was like, “This is insane.” [laughs] Like this person, if they’re here, like still in the home– And I found a clipping about their wife also in the newspaper.

Em: Oh, shut up. I’m so excited.

Christine: Okay, so I’m gonna read that–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –when we get back for Yappy Hour.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Okay, BRB.

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Christine’s Story – Harry Lacey

Christine: Okay, we’re back. I’m in a weird mood now, so, uh, that’s good for everybody.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Uh, I just got really mad at Newspapers.com of all things. Um, like maybe–

Em: They failed her.

Christine: –you know what? Maybe the clipping was from like, um, Ancestry or something, you know. Like maybe I’m looking at the wrong–

Em: Oh, maybe.

Christine: Do they do new– They don’t do newspapers. I don’t know.

Em: They’re, they’re linked. They have– They’re owned by the same people, I think. ’Cause if you sign into one, you sign into the other.

Christine: I have like the same account, so maybe I like saved it there. Whatever. I’ll find it. Now I’m just, I’m just irritated, okay?

Em: Oh, man. Christine needs to take a breath, take a breath.

Christine: It’s a Uranus in, in Gemini thing. Okay?

Em: Yeah, sure. That’s right.

Christine: Now, here we go. So I had my– And I– when I say my, I mean our, lovely second book, uh, out on a coffee table in my house because I had been looking through it, and my daughter walks up and says, “Mommy, that’s way too scary. I don’t want that in our house.” And I was like–

Em: And she’s right.

Christine: [laughs] I was like, “Hey, Mommy wrote that,” and she said, “I don’t care.” And she didn’t want it around. So I brought it upstairs to my office, which is where I’m allowed to keep my belongings.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, the rest of the house doesn’t really belong to me like aesthetically.

Em: No, it’s Leona’s castle, but you–

Christine: That’s exactly–

Em: –you get– and Mommy gets a room in the turret.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Up here where the AC doesn’t work, so, um–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –that’s for me. And while all that was happening, I was flipping through the book, trying to prove to her it wasn’t quite as scary. Although it didn’t work because there’s like murderers and knives and ghosts and stuff in it. So yeah, you’re right. It is a little scary. But I remembered that we had written about South Dakota, and I had– My brother just had a friend in town who had been talking a lot about South Dakota, has family there, and I was saying like–

Em: Cool.

Christine: –“Oh, I’ve always wanted to go. I don’t, um, know much about it.” But then I said, “Oh, but I have written a chapter, uh, about South Dakota in my book,” you know. So this is where this all began.

Em: I’m sure he loved that. He was like, “So you’ve never been and felt like you, uh, could write a story or write anything about it?”

Christine: That’s exactly right. And I said, “Do you want– It’s on my coffee table over there. Super scary if you wanna look at it.”

Em: [chuckles] Whoa.

Christine: Um, yeah. So I was just bragging about it, and for that reason, I thought, why not cover it today? I was at a loss for what to cover, and Leona convinced me that our book is super scary. So I thought–

Em: Good.

Christine: –let’s do it.

Em: Thank you, Leona.

Christine: This is a story out of Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And, uh, do you remember what you covered by the way? I went and looked.

Em: Not even for a second.

Christine: [laughs] You covered, uh, the story of Mount Marty University in Yankton, South Dakota.

Em: Sure.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I bet I had a great time doing it too. [chuckles]

Christine: That silence speaks volumes.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Okay. Um–

Em: Well, before you get into your story, can I tell you a fun thing about our book?

Christine: Please.

Em: Allison texted me the other day and said that the cashier at Grocery Outlet knew our book but did not know our podcast. So it was the first time we’d been recognized as authors before–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –podcasting, and neither of us were even there.

Christine: Gasp. Okay. Did I– I told you, right, about the time that I was at the bookstore and somebody picked the book up out of the shelf–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and like talked to her friend, and I was like, “This is proof I’m in a simulation of some kind. Like this is a test, you know.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Like I don’t know what’s happening.” And Leona literally goes, “That lady’s reading your book,” and I’m like, “Trust me, I’ve clocked it.” And then they turn to the back and go, “Oh, it’s a podcast,” and I’m like, “Oh my god, this could go so bad. This could like shatter me for eternity whatever’s–“

Em: I, I have a similar story that I don’t–

Christine: Yeah, please.

Em: –I don’t think I’ve shared.

Christine: I’ve already told mine.

Em: Well, it feels– It will feel braggy, so we’re just gonna have to lean into that.

Christine: I love that.

Em: Let’s just get it out there. We were New York Times bestsellers. Let’s just say that.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, it’s for–

Christine: It's not a brag. It’s a fact.

Em: A fact. And it is a bra– I mean, what a, what a nice little flex.

Christine: And while we’re fact telling–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –we were also USA Today bestsellers.

Em: Bestsellers. Sure were. We– Good, good for you.

[Em and Christine high-five their cameras.]

Christine: Good for you.

Em: Um, so I was in a bookstore one time, and they had a typewriter out, and so I was like–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –messing around with the typewriter, and some– the guy came over, and he was like, “Oh, oh, you working on a book there?” And I went, “I don’t know what it’ll turn out to be,” like just kind of making small talk. I was like, “I don’t know. I’m just kind of pressing buttons.” And he went, “Well, maybe one day, you’ll be a bestseller.” And I did not say–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –I am because that would be– that’d be so douchey.

Christine: That would be– But that would be so good.

Em: But, but I was like, “I wanna say it so bad just because like when would I ever get that moment again, but I’m not gonna say it.” So I didn’t say it. The literal next week I went to a bookstore, and, uh, somebody said– Oh my god, I wanna try to remember the exact words. Oh, it w– it was so– I don’t– I’m not gonna butcher it, but basically I ended up seeing our book on, uh– in Barnes & Noble, and I went to go buy a copy of it because I buy it for people. [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: To be fair, my aunt said she wanted a copy, so I was buying a copy.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: And I tried to make a joke where I was like, “Oh, the person on the book–“ Like I was saying it to Allison. I was like, “The person on the book looks pretty similar to me,” and the person who was checking us out said like, “Oh, yeah, that, that looks like it could be you”–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and like, “Oh, you could, you could be a bestseller one day.” Like– or said something like, “Oh, well, they’re bestsellers.” I wanted to be like, “It is me.” But I didn’t say it.

Christine: Wow.

Em: Anyway, it really threw me. But in that moment, I was like– I feel like– What are the odds that twice in two weeks someone would imply like, “Oh, one day you could be them,” and I’m like, “I am them.” [chuckles]

Christine: I think the universe is asking you to own it.

Em: I owned it to myself, and I pat myself on the back.

Christine: That’s good. That’s–

Em: But I was like, “That’d be so mean– or it would be so– It would sound braggy to a stranger.”

Christine: I don’t think so. I, I think– I don’t think so. I think if a stranger said to you– If I said to somebody, “Yeah, maybe you’ll be like ‘America’s Next Top Model,’” and they were like, “Oh my god, this is so weird, but I was ‘America’s Next Top Model’ once,” I’d be like, “Holy shit, that’s crazy.” You know?

Em: Sure.

Christine: Like it would never be like, “Why would you say that? That’s so fucking brag– braggy.”

Em: Sure. I think I’m just paranoid about how it would come across. Like, like in good company, obviously–

Christine: No, and it’s like– Of course.

Em: –you know what I mean? But–

Christine: And it’s like impostor syndrome, and you don’t wanna be like that guy. And like honestly, you don’t necessarily wanna just start a conversation like that with somebody you don’t know. Like maybe you don’t even wanna–

Em: Yeah, if it were amongst friends and I’m allowed to like–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –make the joke and look kind of like, “Ha-ha-ha,” and everyone knows that I–

Christine: Did Allison not say it? Blaise would have been like, “Well, look closer.”

Em: You know, if I– if my mom were next to us when it happened–

Christine: Oh. [laughs]

Em: –she would have made me sign it, and then she would sign it, um, and then hand it to the cashier. I don’t know.

Christine: She would sign it first. Let’s be real. [chuckles]

Em: She, she has signed more of our books than I think we have. Um–

Christine: Don't doubt that.

Em: She came to one of our shows, and while she was waiting for us in the green room, she signed people’s books, and I was like, “You didn’t even write that.” [laughs]

Christine: That like– “Who gave you the– What?”

Em: Her–

Christine: “That name doesn’t even exist on the book.”

Em: No, I don’t know. I don’t know. I didn’t– It feels like I’m– We can, we can end this now ’cause I feel like I’m– I don’t know. I have imposter syndrome. But it was, it w– I was just going off of you that like what are the odds two times in a row somebody said something where I could have leaned into it and I was like, “No, I need to be better than that.” But I felt it in my chest. I was like, “Good for you though. You, you know, you know you were a bestseller, and you can walk away owning that.”

Christine: I think you can say– I think next– I think third time maybe experiment.

Em: [laughs] Okay. If it–

Christine: I think third time– If it happens again maybe the universe is saying, “Just try saying, ‘Oh, actually– This is so awkward, but like actually I–‘” I don’t know. Try it.

Em: If it happens a third time, I– with your permission, I will give it a shot.

[Em and Christine mime shaking hands with each other via the camera.]

Christine: Okay.

Em: But I–

Christine: Yay. Okay, we’ll see.

Em: But anyway. But since we don’t say it enough, very proud of you that we’re both bestsellers. Look at us!

Christine: I’m proud of you too. I mean, really, it’s– if you ever need someone to, to hype you up on that, just text me ’cause it’s as shocking to me as it is to you.

Em: It blows my mind sometimes.

Christine: And I’m the only other person who understands what you’re feeling–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –in the exact way. So you know, um, it is a very surreal and humbling but also like ego-boosting but also like, uh, surreal and like kind of–

Em: It’s always disbelief.

Christine: Yeah. Like it feels dis– uh, just doesn’t– It’s hard to reconcile like with–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –the rest of life. I don’t know.

Em: Anyway, sorry. Shameless plug to our book, I guess. Damn.

Christine: Yeah, both of them. I mean, I started it by saying I keep the book out on my coffee table. Like I mean to be fair, there’s like 75 books on my coffee table because I’m constantly just moving piles of junk around trying to organize my house. So it’s not like there by itself, but I do have access to it. So when someone says, “Oh, I’m from South Dakota.” I’m like, “Well, I read a best-selling book about South Dakota.” [laughs]

Em: You at least always have a conversation starter.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: You’re like, “South Dakota, South Dakota. What did I say? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.”

Christine: And then I go to Google Docs, my chapters–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and then I do control– command-F and then I– [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That is what I did. Um, but I had to get the book out to actually see your funny quips, so I have those as well–

Em: Ohh.

Christine: –’cause I’m gonna tell this–

Em: I love when you do that.

Christine: You know, I was surprised– I know I say this every time, but I was surprised I hadn’t talked about this because it feels like I have and also it’s just one of the oldest kind of crime stories I’ve ever covered. So let’s get into it. This is the story of Harry Lacey. Um, it takes place, like I said, in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and it takes place only four years into South Dakota statehood.

Em: Wow.

Christine: So that’s pretty crazy. It was 1893, uh, which was 133 years ago–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and Sioux Falls, um, was kind of like a booming city at this point, right? Like people– I mean, you have covered these towns where people are just like kind of rushing their way over and populating these–

Em: Yeah. Alexa play “All Too Well.” Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] Wow. That felt– Is that a real meme? ’Cause that was like–

Em: No. [laughs]

Christine: You just invented that.

Em: I’m just like super funny.

Christine: That was like an extremely good meme. I like it.

Em: I’m also a bestseller. I don’t know if I’ve told you that.

Christine: You should– [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: See? That didn’t count as your third one though.

Em: Damn it. Okay.

Christine: I know. Has to be a stranger. Okay. So right, we’re four years into South Dakota statehood. It’s a little toddler, just like Leona.

Em: A baby.

Christine: A baby. And, uh, we’re talking 1893. It’s nearing October. I’m assuming it’s just a beautiful night when seven-year-old Sumner Lacey walks into his neighbor’s house. They kind of look at him and, and say, “Hey, son. What’s up? What’s wrong?” And he–

Em: “What are you doing here?”

Christine: Without any hesitation, all he says is, “They’re all dead, sir.”

Em: [gasps] Oh my god.

Christine: What the fuck? I know.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: I know. Now, this is– I, I– This is probably like one of the earliest recorded, um– I, I almost said family annihilator, but it’s not quite family annihilator. It’s more, uh, just like a domestic violence–

Em: Okay.

Christine: I mean, it’s– it honestly reminds me, which is weirdly tragic as well, of the Constantinos, like similar kind, kind of vibes but, you know, hundreds of years ago. So it’s–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –it’s a weird little like juxtaposition.

Em: And, and you did say, um, it w– that we were only four years into South Dakota existing. Do we know for sure if this was like the first like serious crime to come out of South Dakota or like first big murder?

Christine: You know, I looked into it, and there– Because it was kind of a Wild West area–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –there was so much, quote unquote– It wasn’t– I don’t even know that it was crime, right? Because like I– Wild West, lawless land.

Em: Violent mischief.

Christine: But– [laughs] Violent mischief, murderous mischief. Um, so I imagine there was a lot of death and–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –cri– I mean, you know, people taking land already is gonna be cause for plenty of conflict, so. But I don’t know. I don’t know. This could– I don’t think I was able to confirm that it was like the first, um, you know, in the state, but it was definitely one of the top. And the weird part is–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –like there’s barely any information about this out there. Um, and I actually– The frustrating part was that like the, the really well-written article that I found, um, from that time period was basically the only like super thorough telling of what happened.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: And I, I had wished like in the chapter I could have somehow– Anyway, my point is I’m gonna tell you my own notes, but then I’m also gonna read you the article because it’s just–

Em: Good.

Christine: –written in a way where I’m like, you can’t translate that into modern verbiage. It’s just like so fascinating to hear.

Em: This is what I love about, um, retelling it as an episode because now we get like even more behind the scenes.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: ’Cause we were trying to hit a word count then–

Christine: I know. It was frustrating.

Em: –and now it’s like, “Well, here’s the other stuff.”

Christine: What– You’ll never believe this, but we have a tendency to yap.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles] And so when someone gives us a word limit–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –suddenly, it’s real hard. And it’s like we’ve spent our lives making the periods in our essays bigger–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –to like fill space, and now all of a sudden, it’s like we can’t shut up.

Em: I feel like in one of the meetings we had when writing the book, we were told like, “Oh, you actually have to like halve all of your stories.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Didn’t we have something like that?

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: They were like, “Yeah, the other page needs to be used for like graphics.” [chuckles]

Em: Yeah.

Christine: We were like, “Ohh.” [chuckles]

Em: They were like, “Otherwise, it’s gonna be a 600-page book.” And I was like, “Ohh.”

Christine: “Yeah, that’s not happening.” Um, so anyway, here we go. So this little boy walks into his neighbor’s house, says, “They’re all dead, sir.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: And just like a horror movie, uh, the man says, “Well, let me come with you, son. I’ll take you home and we’ll see what’s going on.”

Em: Brave.

Christine: Yeah. Unfortunately, the man that, uh, lived next door where this little boy also lived was his father. And his father, Harry Lacey, was dead on the ground, uh, with a gunshot wound to the head.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So the neighbor– It– I just like picture it because the guy is holding this little kid’s hand– I don’t know. Something about it just really disturbs me. Um, I can’t imagine what it is, you know.

Em: Well, yeah. Right. Could–

Christine: Maybe the man like shooting himself. Anyway.

Em: Could be anything.

Christine: [chuckles] Could be anything. Nobody knows. Here’s what they found out very quickly. Uh, Sumner’s father, Harry Lacey, had– They don’t– They called it basically snapping, but I don’t really think that’s quite how that works–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –uh, especially when it’s like a domestic violence thing. He had pulled out a .38-caliber revolver and shot his wife in cold blood, his wife, Clara, and then his mother-in-law, Lydia Bunker, before calmly turning the gun on himself.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And his son, Sumner, had stood there and witnessed the whole thing. So at the time, Sioux Falls was seeing this influx of families trying to, um, like make a new name for themselves, a new home for themselves in the newly minted state. Harry Lacey was no different. He and his wife, Clara Bunker, who became Clara Lacey, had moved from Iowa to Sioux Falls with dreams of creating, um, a successful business. And unfortunately, the move was not as profitable as they had hoped, and he really struggled financially. And, um, being the kind of man who felt very– I mean, it’s basically like same old story, right? Like people don’t necessarily change that much.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, he was insecure about certain aspects of his life, like his finances–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –and his lack of business success, and he took it out on his own family.

Em: Isn’t that funny? Remember how earlier I was telling you, um, this was during Yappy Hour, that it’s wild how things just never fucking change like across generations.

Christine: No.

Em: Like how is that 500 years ago– or [chuckles] I’m saying 500– the, the country was not 500 years old, but hundreds of years ago that that could happen then still happens now, unfortunately will still happen in the future.

Christine: That’s– I mean, it’s true. It’s like history repeats itself. It cycles, you know.

Em: But just like someone could be that insecure that you– It’s not just like hurt people hurt people. It’s like, oh, insecure people murder people? How–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: How is that–

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, it’s like a lot more–

Em: –how this works?

Christine: –layered. So [sighs] here’s what happened, um, that we now know. A few years before the murders, Harry’s mother-in-law, uh– Now, this is also the issue is that like he clearly also has a complex. Um, I wish–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –I could say it was a product of the times, but we see it running rampant today too. Um, he had an inferiority complex because he had borrowed money from his mother-in-law. And–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –imagine like owing money to your wife and her mother when you were already–

Em: To women?

Christine: Yeah, exactly. Like a hateful person, uh, and a misogynist. So they were really struggling. Um, his mother-in-law had actually sold a portion of her homestead and was pretty wealthy, and she had netted $40,000 for it, which today is about $1.3 million. And a woman–

Em: Holy crap.

Christine: –like at the time netting that kind of money in the 1800s, you know, you think like, holy smokes. Uh–

Em: I didn't even know how that was possible, but so proud of her.

Christine: Very impressive. She sold her, she sold her property. She netted what today is $1.3 million. Uh, and she entrusted almost half of it to Harry, her son-in-law, and his brother, who promised that they would invest it and carefully grow her funds.

Em: [sighs] Wow.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: You don’t even have to finish the story at this point. I–

Christine: I know.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I know. That’s why it’s almost like why do I even– But like the fact that this happened in 18– the fact that the state was brand new and they’re like, “Cool. Here comes a man murdering–“

Em: Crazy.

Christine: “–his wife and his mother.” Like it just–

Em: Like had no time to wait.

Christine: –classic. Had no time.

Em: Like South Dakota was a fetus at this point, and–

Christine: It's like this was the seal of approval, you know. Like, “Here. Now it’s officially the US of A–“

Em: Yeah. [laughs] Yes.

Christine: “–part of the US of A.” so she gave half of this money. She entrusted it to her son-in-law, Harry, and his brother with the hopes that they would invest it, take care of it, um, have good financial sense, because they’re men after all, right?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And so they can take care of it for her. Um, she started to get suspicious, rightfully so. And when she asked for the money back, um, he was like, “Maybe later.” And the more and more she pressured him, the more and more she realized, “Oh no, I think he’s done something with my money.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um, her name was Lydia Bunker, by the way, and she was very adamant that she wanted the money to be returned ASAP, uh, no more, what do you call it, beating around the bush. And he kept saying things like, “Oh, I’ll offer you instead– I’ll offer you, um, like this pro– like I’ll offer you–“, um, what’s the word? When you give someone like a watch and say like, “I promise I’ll pay you”?

Em: Oh, collateral or–

Christine: Yes, yes. He was try–

Em: Okay.

Christine: Thank you. He was trying to like give her other securities. So like, “Oh, I’ll, uh– you can have the deed to the house or something,” you know, and she’s like, “No, I want my money back.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Because she knows now something is very wrong.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So as you can imagine, the pressure is increasing. The tension in the house is escalating. His wife, who I imagine is nagging him left and right–

Em: Of course.

Christine: –about losing her mother’s $500,000 basically–

Em: Females, am I right?

Christine: [laughs] –she is getting more and more, um, insistent that he repay her. And this all came to a head in December of 1891 when a heated argument during breakfast escalated into violence. Clara, the wife, made what would be unfortunately kind of a fatal mistake in siding with her mother. She insisted that he repay her mother the money he owed, and enraged, Harry threatened his wife with a revolver, and he was arrested and fined $50.

Em: [chuckles] Okay.

Christine: So the end, and he went home. That’s unfortunately true for now. That’s chapter one.

Em: I was gonna say.

Christine: That– A slap on the wrist, you know. So for much of the following year, Harry lived like in and out of the house. So he would be with his family for a while, and then he would, um, be living on his own. But the entire time he was blaming Lydia for making his life, and I quote, “hell on earth.”

Em: Okay. I don’t really believe him. And– Well, let’s find out.

Christine: [chuckles] Over time, the couple reconciled, and they moved– How, how could this not go wrong? They moved in with the mother-in-law. Like this–

Em: So she sold part of the property so they could have money, and then he ended up not paying her and is now living in the smaller property with them?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And there’s no resentment at all.

Christine: Right.

Em: Nothing.

Christine: Totally right. And at breakfast they’re having like arguments, you know. Like this is just a disaster waiting to happen.

Em: And I wonder how much the mom knew because like i-imagine all of that animosity you already have towards him, but also he’s now moving in after like threatening your daughter with a gun.

Christine: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And you’re like– how could you possibly feel safe–

Em: To start an argument? [chuckles]

Christine: –living under this roof? Right. Exactly.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So they moved in together virtually. It was, it was like a pair of homes, but they were basically connected. Um, the family had what was called a truce, and it’s like that’s a red flag in and of itself if you have to call it a truce, you know.

Em: And it’s not even– I would imagine a truce is just like, “Well, we’re just not talking about it.”

Christine: Yeah. We’re almost just like trying to move past it.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Exactly. Well, that truce, whatever it was, lasted all of one week before completely shattering and ending up worse than imaginable.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So in the days leading up to the tragedy, Harry Lacey did that classic thing where he walked around– and I just find this so gross. Um, he walked around settling bills. Okay? And like it’s one thing when you know you hear about somebody who is– has suicidal ideation and they go around and they’re trying to like tie up loose ends, and like, of course, that’s–

Em: Sure.

Christine: – its own situation, but when you hear of these stories of people who are planning to murder their partner, their wife, and they’re– walk– and themselves, and they’re walking around like, “Oh, well, I better pay the grocer his dues,” and it’s like you’re planning to kill the mother of your children. You're planning to kill somebody, a woman, like–

Em: Yeah. It’s also– It’s the eerie– the hindsight 20/20, but the eerie overtones–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –of like he clearly had the plan early on.

Christine: Yes.

Em: He can’t, he can’t feign that it was spontaneous. It’s like–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –you clearly– this was step one of a plan.

Christine: 100%. And it was. Um, so he settled bills. He returned items he had borrowed. Um, he made some unusual offers, like he had a tab at a restaurant and he couldn’t pay it, so he tried to give the restaurant owner his coat, and the restaurant owner was like, “[chuckles] I don’t want this.”

Em: Like what world did he come from where bartering is like the norm– or like just a general trade is enough? Like why does he–

Christine: He’s like, “Take my coat.” And the man’s like, “I literally don’t want this. Can you just pay me later? Like stop being weird.”

Em: But again, like is that not so narcissistic to be like– or arrogant of like, “Oh, well, obviously he’ll take this.” like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –to keep it doing it–

Christine: “This is worth something.”

Em: It’d be one thing to like think you could get away with it with like your mother-in-law and like she has to deal with you. Like just–

Christine: Ugh.

Em: –strangers? It’s like, “Oh, you want my coat. Don’t worry, you want this.”

Christine: “Yeah, don’t worry. This will pay my bills.” like, “I– It was on my shoulders.” like fuck you.

Em: Yeah, he’s clearly not–

Christine: So he tried to–

Em: –of this world.

Christine: No, and when he tried to give his coat, the restaurant owner was like, “Well, you’re gonna need this,” and he goes, [chuckles] No, I won’t.”

Em: [gasps] Hello?

Christine: Hello?

Em: Like–

Christine: And when the guy said–

Em: –talk about knowing.

Christine: I know. Try– be– Ugh. Like [groans] gross. And when the guy kind of like looked at him, he was like, “Oh, I mean, um, this is my hiking coat, so I just won’t be needing it.”

Em: Also, again, narcissistic to think you can say something like that and like someone’s not gonna remember how fucking weird you were being, but I guess it didn’t matter. ’Cause if he planned on–

Christine: He doesn’t care.

Em: –ending his own life at the end of it, it’s not like it’s ever gonna affect him.

Christine: Doesn’t care. So on that Sunday evening – [sighs] It’s just so creepy – he read the newspaper for a while–

Em: Ew.

Christine: –and he walked over to his mother-in-law’s house and kicked in the back door. Lydia passed through the room, and before she could even realize what was happening, he shot her–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and she died instantly. Clara, his wife, witnessed the attack, tried to grab the weapon, but he wrenched it free and shot her in the head. The entire ordeal was witnessed by their seven-year-old, Sumner, and his three-and-a-half-year-old sister, Lydia, which also is so–

Em: Who also ended up dying, right?

Christine: –heartbreaking. No, Lydia was the mother-in-law’s name and then Lydia was the little girl’s name too, so they had even named the daughter after the mother-in-law. So like just the layers of like Freudian bullshit going on here is crazy town.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And then like to be that toddler and that little boy and have to watch your namesake and like your mother and your mothe– your grandmother like die in such– I mean, it’s just horrific–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –um, of course. But so it just adds another layer to it that she was like named after the grandma. So according to the children’s retelling– because, of course, now they’re like the only witnesses and have to fucking tell everybody what happened – apparently, Harry stared at his wife’s body for a moment, then walked calmly outside, sat down on a wheelbarrow, and shot himself in the head.

Em: The calmness is like–

Christine: It’s cr– fucking eerie, dude.

Em: I don’t know why I would prefer him to act like a madman, but like I mean, I guess ’cause I– then I could justify it better in my mind–

Christine: Because it’s just like less–

Em: –of like, “Oh, well, he’s lost his marbles.”

Christine: Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah.

Em: The eeriness is just like a full conscious decision–

Christine: Mm-hmm. So–

Em: And being calm with it. Like the stillness of like not frea–

Christine: Yeah, and, and then doing it–

Em: Because you would think after you do that then you would– should lose your marbles and be like, “I can’t believe I fucking did that,” but he is just like so at peace with what he’s done.

Christine: And then to, to, to, to kill himself with that like same like just like, “Well, I’ll take a seat right here,” and like having read the newspaper a few hours ago– not even a few hours, an hour ago, it’s just like what the fuck.

Em: Yeah. It’s, it’s the, um, the creepiness of like I could see anyone outside or at the– a coffee shop reading a paper right now, and it’s like for all we know he’s planning in an hour to kill his whole family.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, it’s very unsettling.

Em: Why did he not shoot Sumner? Or the kids, I guess?

Christine: I don’t think he had it, had it out for the kids. I think it was just he was so done with his– with the women in his life, and I think probably–

Em: Mm.

Christine: I mean, a lot of times I think people who are this way act like the kids aren’t part of the situation when obviously they are if, if it’s a domestic violence thing. They’re victims as well. But like I think in this scenario a lot of times people like this will just be like, “Oh, the kids, the kids are their own thing. I love my kids.” And it’s like, well, not really ’cause you wouldn’t be doing something like this.

Em: Right. And also if your mentality was like, “Well, I have to kill my wife and her mother because I don’t want the judgment anymore,” do you not think your now living children aren’t gonna judge you for the rest of your life? Like–

Christine: Right. Like they don’t, they don’t love you– They don’t love their children that way. They just love them enough to be like, “Oh, I won’t kill them, you know. They can keep living.” It’s–

Em: It’s also the gross– This is like such a side conversation, but like it’s the added misogyny of like the kids being only an extension of your legacy.

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Totally.

Em: It’s like, “Well, they had nothing to do with the mom.”

Christine: No, and that’s exactly how I see it. It’s– Yeah, exactly.

Em: Like, “They’re me,” so.

Christine: [makes a retching sound]

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “They’re mine,” you know, “and they can stay–“ Yeah, it’s just–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –gross. “And she’s mine, and she cannot.”

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Christine: So here is the newspaper article because I just– I pulled it up yesterday and thought, “I gotta read this ’cause it’s as good as I remembered.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: “Harry G. La–“ Okay. So remember how back in the day they had like six headlines?

Em: Of course.

Christine: [chuckles] So it’s like headline, then slightly smaller headline, then slightly smaller headline.

Em: Yeah, yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: Okay.

Em: The sub-subtitle.

Christine: Correct. So it says, “Harry G. Lacey Shoots His Mother-In-Law and then His Wife. – He Then Leaves the House and Sends a Bullet Into His Own Brain. – It Was Not an Act Of Temper but Was Deliberately Planned. – The Murderer Settles Up His Bills Before His Awful Crime Is Done. – Tragic Ending of a Domestic Trouble – Full Details.”

Em: F-five–

Christine: So– That’s the title. [chuckles]

Em: –titles. So I like how the titles back then were just the, um–

Christine: Oops.

Em: –the AI version– like the AI SparkNotes or whatever. Like–

Christine: Oh, 100%. Where it like overexplains, um–

Em: You know what?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I, I–

Christine: –that, that whole half is just titles. Yeah.

[Christine holds up her iPad, showing the newspaper page with half of the column being the headline and subtitles.]

Em: That’s fucking crazy.

Christine: Just layers of titles.

Em: I wonder, um, if that’s just like– I wonder if newspapers weren’t meant to be– if the articles weren’t meant to be read unless you cared about the specific details and the headlines were just supposed to tell you just “this is the news. If you want more, go here.”

Christine: Yeah, “here are full details.”

Em: Like I wonder if our– Like articles were less cared for. It was like, “I wanna know the headline. If I give a shit, here’s some extra info.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think everyone–

Em: I, I feel like maybe that’s what newspapers just fucking are in general even today. But like in my mind, it’s like–

Christine: [chuckles] You’re just describing–

Em: –the– “Here’s a hook.”

Christine: –a newspaper. [laughs]

Em: I know. I’m just describing– But it’s like here– These days, I would imagine like, “Here’s a hook to get you to wanna read more–“

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: –but I feel like back then, it was like, “Here’s what you need to know.”

Christine: I’ll– Right. It’s like–

Em: “Do you care for more?”

Christine: –“Here, I’ll give you the whole story in the headline, but–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “–if you wanna hear the beat by beat, like you got to keep reading.” Yeah, that’s so true. Because now you’re right. It is like clickbait now. It’s like–

Em: Yes, yes.

Christine: –“You’ll never believe what happened.”

Em: I’m–

Christine: “First murder of South Dakota history,” you know.

Em: Isn’t that crazy that in 2026 where things should only advance, I’m like describing– I’m like judging the fact that a newspaper was doing its fucking job? Like giving you as much information as possible everywhere.

Christine: You know what’s so weird? I feel like that’s the theme of today. Like we’re just like sensing these weird patterns. I mean–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –I even started the episode with like “every 84 years like something happens,” and then–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –you’re like, “Oh, it’s weird how like– the watermelon ice cream socials,” and then now I’m like, “Oh, this reminds me of the Constantinos.” Everything is just kind of like a weird little shadow.

Em: It’s very o– And then I’m like, “What’s a newspaper?” Like– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] You’re like, “I can’t believe they do the same thing now that they did all the way back then.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um–

Em: Yeah, but they felt– it felt more accurate and loved on and like they were really reporting the news versus like just telling you what you might care–

Christine: No, no, I totally agree.

Em: Anyway.

Christine: I totally agree. It wasn’t necessarily like the AI slop, um, that it–

Em: Five Headlines is a dedicated journalist.

Christine: Totally. And I’m gonna actually read you the article now, so here we go. “Harry G. Lacey, who has lived in Sioux Falls for years and who was known as a bright, competent, cool, desperate man–“ And I’m like–

Em: Whoa.

Christine: –what a combo. Okay.

Em: Yeah. What– Maybe desperate meant something else back then. [chuckles]

Christine: I feel like they interviewed, uh, four neighbors, and “bright,” “competent,” “cool,” and the one’s were like, “just plain desperate.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Oh, I’m sorry. Are we not talking truth here?”

Em: Everyone gets a word. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah. Like, “Sorry, I’m not gonna like r-respect the dead or whatever.” Okay. He “was known as a bright, competent, cool, desperate man. At 5:30 Sunday evening, shot and instantly killed his mother-in-law, Mrs. Lydia Bunker, and his wife, and then putting the muzzle of a 38-calibre revolver to his head, blew out his own brains.” I mean, Jesus Christ with the way they wrote things.

Em: Mm.

Christine: “It was not the act of insanity; it was the deed of a desperate man who fancied that he had been wronged by others, and it was evidently planned quietly and coolly – probably for some days.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: “Friday and Saturday Mr. Lacey was on the streets, settling up his bills. He owed a bill to Art DeGood, the restaurant keeper, and turned over a clock in payment.” Like he’s literally gave him a clock.

Em: First a coat, now a clock.

Christine: Like really?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “Saturday he came to the Argus-Leader office–“ That’s, uh, this newspaper, by the way, which love that–

Em: Interesting.

Christine: –self-referential. “Saturday he came to the Argus-Leader office and said: ‘I owe you a small bill which I am anxious to settle. I have no money but will turn over to you some books.’ The books were not taken–“ [laughs]

Em: Okay.

Christine: “–but an arrangement was made under which Mr. Lacey, who was an irrigation expert–“

Em: Hm.

Christine: “–was to write several articles on the subject for the paper.” So basically, in exchange for– So that asshole said, “in exchange for my bill that I owe you, I’ll write several articles for you about irrigation.”

Em: S–

Christine: F– By the way, fucking boring. Okay?

Em: Boring.

Christine: Nobody wants that.

Em: And also it sounds– So literally all the way ’til the day of his death, he was conning people.

Christine: He’s conning people. Exactly. He’s lying. I mean, he knows he’s going to die.

Em: Yeah. So he was like, “Oh, yeah, I’ll help you out. Just take this.” Yeah.

Christine: Ugh, god. “Mr. Lacey talked freely of the articles and discussed the general theme of irrigation with much apparent interest.” Yeah, I fucking bet he did, loser. “Later–“

Em: [chuckles] You know, he talked about irrigation in a way where like you’re trapped–

Christine: [groans]

Em: –and he thinks he’s blowing your fucking mind.

Christine: Self-important– Yeah, self-important prick.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: 100%. “Later in the day he went to the Knickerbocker restaurant, and to settle a bill of $13 offered his heavy overcoat in payment. Roger Marson, the proprietor, refused to take the coat, saying: ‘You’ll need it.’ ‘No,’ said Mr. Lacey, ‘I won’t want it any longer’ – and as if suddenly remembering himself said: ‘It is a heavy coat and I only use it while riding.’”

Em: Okay, no one asked.

Christine: Good one. Yeah, no one asked. Exactly. “It was finally arranged that Lacey should turn over a few books.” What is this? Fucking Amelia Bedelia?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like this is not how the– And it’s like why are you even settling up your bills?

Em: Yeah, I know. Like at this, like at this point, you’re not helping anyone. Like–

Christine: You're not.

Em: It’s, it’s truly– Again, the narcissism, and it’s–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –it’s, it’s relieving him of something–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –’cause he believes that he’s–

Christine: Yes.

Em: But like if you’re–

Christine: He's doing something he thinks is like an act of martyrdom, and it’s like you’re not even paying the bill, dude.

Em: Yeah. You’re not even– You’re, you’re helping no one. You’re actually bothering everybody.

Christine: You’re bothering everyone.

Em: You’re inconveniencing everyone. You’re reminding them and rubbing it in their face that you’re not gonna pay them. And– But for you, “Ah, like something is off my shoulders.“

Christine: Totally. You’re 100% right. It’s like this weird–

Em: “I have nothing left to owe anybody.”

Christine: –martyrdom. Yeah. Oh my god. I never thought about it like that. That’s so gross.

Em: Gross.

Christine: Yeah. “I’ll write– I’ll give you my expertise in exchange for–“

Em: “And now I can sleep at night because I’ve done what I think is, is solved the problem, even though–“

Christine: And by sleep at night, he’s basically saying, “I get to go to heaven now because I’ve–“

Em: Yeah. The big sleep. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Right. Like ugh, get over it. But the murdering of two innocent people has nothing to do with it either, you know. Just–

Em: I can’t believe– Yeah. I–

Christine: Goes to show what people think of women.

Em: It’s wild that that’s the last thing he ever did and thought, “Okay, time for a good afterlife where I’m owed goodness.”

Christine: Yeah, he went to a bunch of–

Em: What do you mean?

Christine: –men proprietors and said, “Oh, I owe you some expertise on irrigation. Don’t let me forget.” Like–

Em: The, the misogyny of needing–

Christine: –go to hell.

Em: –male approval before he dies–

Christine: Yeah!

Em: –while still actually not getting approval from anyone.

Christine: Like sq–

Em: Like he’s still just making men also hate him.

Christine: You’re right. He’s like trying to like square up with all these dudes, and it’s like they’re not even like interested, but like–

Em: Like you k–

Christine: –he thinks it’s some sort of big gesture.

Em: You killed the women in your life because you’re afraid of them judging you. But then– But, of course, you wouldn’t try to kill the men who are judging you because they’re men and you have to respect them. But then you’re also like not–

Christine: But they’re not the ones who are causing the problem. Like–

Em: You’re, you’re not clearing the air with any of the men that you’re scared of judgment from. You’re just gonna go kill women because you’re scared of them?

Christine: I don’t think he’s scared of their judgment. I think he is– I think he’s so self important and grandiose that he thinks like, “Oh, I better make one final like stop or goodbye or gift o– parting gift to all these people–”

Em: I guess so.

Christine: –without even– Yeah.

Em: I– Like I don’t– Like I’ll, I’ll never get the m– Like what, what was the goal? What was the goal besides just doing it for himself?

Christine: Ego. Ego. Ego.

Em: It’s sick.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah.

Em: Hey, Christine.

Christine: Ego like twisted his sickness.

Em: It’s sick.

Christine: Yeah, it’s fucking sick. Uh, yeah, 100%. So the fact that he wandered around town thinking he was doing some sort of like charity work or whatever–

Em: Favor to them.

Christine: Yeah. So, uh, he said, “No, it’s only what I use while riding.” “It was finally arranged that Lacey should turn over a few books, and these he delivered about noon yesterday. At 3 o’clock Sunday afternoon he took the elevator and went up to the Commercial club rooms. Lacey was apparently much confused and disturbed. He remained in the rooms but a few minutes and when he came out had a small box under his arm. He must have gone from here direct to his house. It is located just east of the motor track, which runs north and south from the power house to the town. Just west of the track is the old Bunker homestead. Lacey and his wife were living together, after several separations which Lacey thought had been brought about by the mother-in-law.” Of course.

Em: Of course.

Christine: “Mrs. Bunker lived alone in the house west of the track. When Lacey came home a neighbor was with Mrs. Lacey. Lacey went into the house, sat down, and without saying a word took up a newspaper. Mrs. Lacey arose abruptly and left the house. Her friend also left to go home. Lacey sat quietly for a moment and then left the house. He walked leisurely across the track and toward the Bunker house. He was seen coming, and the doors were locked.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: This is so scary.

Em: Like–

Christine: Like they locked the doors.

Em: Like unfortunately, great job writing it. Um–

Christine: It’s a very well st– well told, but– and to imagine that this was– by the way, the reason they even knew any of this was because the little kids told them. A seven-year-old was like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –“And then they locked the door.”

Em: That’s a great point that all the information was like told by– which means like–

Christine: The POV of the child.

Em: And I wonder if the journalist is actually writing to induce fear in the reader or if he’s just describing exactly what the kid said. And like–

Christine: I think it really is. I mean, it’s clearly a little–

Em: It just– describing how scared he was.

Christine: –fruity, but that’s how they wrote back then, right? Like that’s why I love it.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, but it says: [sighs] “He walked leisurely– He was seen coming–“ I mean, this scares the shit out of me. “He was seen coming, and the doors were locked. The back door was a light one. Harry tried the door. It was locked. He kicked it in–“

Em: Hm.

Christine: “–breaking the lock. Mrs. Bunker started to pass from the dining room into the kitchen. Just as she reached the threshold, Harry fired at her.”

Em: Oh.

Christine: “The ball struck her back of the right ear, and she fell forward, dying instantly. Mrs. Lacey, who saw the raised weapon and feared the worst, grabbed the revolver, but Harry wrenched it from her and shot, the bullet striking in almost the same spot where Mrs. Bunker was hit.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: That was another weird, um, thing that they noted in the autopsy reports is that even though they were shot in different circumstances, it was almost identical the bu– where, where he had– where he shot both of them. Just a weird–

Em: It’s like he had a plan of exactly where to get them.

Christine: No, no, it was just accidental. Like he–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –he just sho-shot both of them, and it was just strangely like the exact same–

Em: Eerie.

Christine: –entry wound. I don’t know.

Em: Eerie. And s– I’m not trying to be so nitpicky on this, but it is interesting that if he didn’t wanna harm his kids, he still like didn’t tuck them away in a different room before this happened.

Christine: Because he’s not like– He’s try–

Em: You’re right. He’s not– You’re right.

Christine: He's not harming them. He’s just not not harming them.

Em: [sighs] Yeah.

Christine: Like they’re just not the targets. They’re just collateral damage. Right? You know what I mean?

Em: Horrible. Yeah, I know.

Christine: “Harry went up to his wife, looked at her for a moment coolly, and walked out of the house. This awful act was witnessed by Lacey’s two children, one seven years, and one three-and-a-half. Lacey then walked out of the house by the door he had entered. About twenty feet from the back door was a wheelbarrow. He sat down upon this, put the muzzle to his right ear, pulled the trigger, and Harry Lacey, weighed down by his real and imaginary troubles, his soul blackened with the murder of the wife he had sworn to protect, of her mother and of himself, passed into another world to answer before another tribunal.”

Em: Oh, wow.

Christine: Whoa. “‘They’re all dead, sir,’ said the frightened and harmless voice of the little seven-year-old after he had speeded from the house of slaughter and had been admitted to the house of a neighbor. Mr. Jones took the hand of the trembling little orphan and led him back to the house. ‘There’s papa,’ he said, as they reached the back door.” [chuckles] First of all, what? “There lay Harry–“ So they get to the back door, and he’s like, “Oh, there’s Papa,” and it’s a dead body.

Em: I feel like he was so young he didn’t even know what he was really looking at or– I mean, he knew they were dead, but I wonder if it hadn’t–

Christine: Oh, I thought the neighbor said it.

Em: No.

Christine: Oh, it’s the kid.

Em: I think he’s, I think he’s pointing being like, “There’s Papa.” Like, “There he is.”

Christine: Oh my god. I hadn’t even read it that way.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Shit. Oh my god. Okay. I thought it was like– Because it says, “Mr. Jones took the hand–“

Em: Yeah. What a weird thing for him to say. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Okay. Wow. Oh, okay. So the little– Oh, Jesus. Okay. So the little boy says, “‘There’s Papa,’ he–“ Oh… So much worse. “–he said as they reached the back door. They– There lay Harry, his face quiet and peaceful after the terrible tragedy. Under his right arm was a 38 calibre revolver – three chambers empty – a life for each. The blood had matted in his thick hair. Into the house Mr. Jones went. Mrs. Bunker lay on the floor with her arm raised on a chair where she had fallen. The right eye was badly swollen and was black and blue.”

Em: [sighs]

Christine: “By the stove lay the body of Mrs. Lacey, daughter, wife and mother. Her hand was blacked with powder and a black spot was below her eye. The three people were shot in almost exactly the same place. Harry was the prince of marksmen and he would have considered himself disgraced had he made any misses.”

Em: So disgraced he might kill himself?

Christine: First of all– Right? Like first of all, let’s not be cutesy about this.

Em: Yeah. Man.

Christine: Um, so the $13 bill that he owed, by the way, at the restaurant, in today’s money, I looked it up, was– is $477. So I’m like, he’s running up a tab at that restaurant.

Em: Totally. I mean– Imagine–

Christine: $477– And then he’s like, “Here’s my overcoat.” Like, please.

Em: Yeah. [sighs] And also, I mean– I just– I– That poor kid. And the fact that like– I don’t know where this kid was. Was he hiding or something? ’Cause how did he witness every single death? I mean, like that’s just so sad.

Christine: Well, I think what happened is like the in-laws– the mom, the in-laws freak out. They see– they– ’Cause remember the– his wife left the house kind of abruptly–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –when he was home. Like she probably sensed somethin– I don’t know. I don’t know. Went to her mom’s house with the kids. They’re all there. They see him coming.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: They see him with a gun. They lock the doors. He barges down the door.

Em: Oh, yeah.

Christine: So the kids are already like, “Something terrible’s happening.”

Em: So he had– Yeah. They– He probably just froze and just witnessed the whole thing.

Christine: Witnessed it from like start of to finish. And then like once he does these horrible things, he, he just calmly walks outside, and then you’re like, “Dad?” and you look out and– I mean, Jesus Christ.

Em: I– The, the–

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: It was such a, um– Out of all the sentences, this was like such a vague nondescript one, but like it was just like obviously the kid is now– is reporting to the journalist that–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –he just saw like the mom like move from one end of the room to the other when he saw the husband kick down the door or they saw the revolver, and she– You could tell that he witnessed her like immediately–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –trying to recoil out of the room–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –or back away from him–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –and just to know that, that– like she knew immediately what was gonna happen. And the fact that he was kicking down the door– I mean, it was just bad from–

Christine: And the fact–

Em: –start to finish.

Christine: You're right. Because the only source– the only primary source was–

Em: The kid.

Christine: –were these two kids. One’s three, and one’s seven. So the seven-year-old is telling the story, and it’s like, yeah, he was the one who knew she crossed the room. He was the one– only one who knew– like he’s the only one who could be reporting any of these details. So yeah, you realize–

Em: Or even like she got the revolver, but then he fought it off from her and–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: And to know that she was so close.

Christine: And he looked at her– And like he walked over, looked at her dead body for a few seconds. I mean, like what the fuck?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So well, there’s that for you. Happy birthday, everybody.

Em: Dare I ask what the hell were my quips about this?

Christine: Yeah, there was only one. [laughs]

Em: Okay.

Christine: And–

Em: I feel like there were definitely some stories where I was like, “How the fuck am I supposed to be funny about this?”

Christine: This was, I think, maybe one of the last ones where we really didn’t know how to kind of get into it. And I have a s– picture here of the book. Um, it was right near the beginning. Uh, and it was when Sumner walks into the house and says, “They’re all dead, sir.” And Em says– Oh my god, and my response is so cringe. I’m sorry. Okay. So you say, “I’ll take ‘The Creepiest Thing a Child Could Walk into a Room and Say to Me– Say to My Face’ for $800, Alex,” which I love.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And then I wrote, “Answer… Daily Double!” [laughs] And I said, “I’d wager it all if I were you.” It’s so embarrassing. Okay, so that’s what we wrote.

Em: You know what? I, I do appreciate ’cause I– of– another insider tip. I was definitely making, um, statements as I read it for the very first time ’cause I didn’t want– I knew I was then gonna– It was just gonna get worse from wherever I was reading, and I didn’t want–

Christine: If there was something early, it was like, “Get that spot– Get the quip in now–“

Em: “Say it now.”

Christine: “–before we find out what’s about to happen ’cause it’s not gonna be pretty.”

Em: Because then when I– Yeah, if I read anymore and then it was worse, I was like, “Uh, I don’t know. I, I don’t even wanna be funny earlier up in the paragraph.” So I, I definitely said that as–

Christine: Then you suddenly lose– Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, bef–

Em: I definitely wrote that as a quip the first time I saw that and went, “Where the fuck is this going?” So, um–

Christine: That's exactly right. Yes, yes. Uh–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –so that’s what happened. That was our only kind of quip for the, for the situation, and then I took a picture–

Em: Understandable.

Christine: –of the next page, which was your Mount Marty. So shout-out to Mount Marty. Uh–

Em: [chuckles] Hey, girl!

Christine: –and the– any alums or students out there. Uh, so that’s my South Dakota special. Okay?

Em: I’m glad you told me as, as I’m trying to plan my Dakotas trip at some point.

Christine: I know. And I thought, “Hey, maybe, maybe it’ll be of interest to you, uh, if you, if you make your way over there.”

Em: Yeah, I, uh, that’s, that’s the only thing I have to say about South Dakota is that I will be there at some point this year. Looking forward to it.

Christine: I love that. Maybe someone will ask– Some– Maybe someone will suggest you become a New York Times bestseller and you can say, “[chuckles] Well, actually.”

Em: [chuckles] I, I will literally probably start it with “I feel really uncomfortable saying this, but I’m supposed to say–“ [laughs]

Christine: “But my friend made me promise.” [laughs]

Em: “I’m trying to be really brave and proud of myself.” Um, no, I, uh– Thank you for the permission ’cause I always feel– I wanna talk about it, but I also wanna, you know–

Christine: It's like impossible. I get it. It’s so hard.

Em: It’s a weird space to be.

Christine: I mean, and it’s like– And like I’m not saying if some weirdo is like hitting you up to talk about it. I’m not like pressuring you to make conversation–

Em: Right. No, I know, I know.

Christine: –with somebody uncomfortable. But like, you know, if you ever feel like, “Oh, shit. I should say something.” I don’t know.

Em: I know. I– Usually, uh– There– If I’m again with my mother, she will make sure that it’s said–

Christine: Right. That’s always nice.

Em: –because I certainly am not going– But on my own, I’m like, “Oh, I feel like being humble is the right way to go.”

Christine: No–

Em: But I’m like, “No, I think I–“ I don’t know.

Christine: But it is–

Em: I never know.

Christine: Yeah. You’re not not humble, you know? It’s like– And it’s also like a fun synchronicity for them too, and– I don’t know.

Em: [chuckles] It is. It is.

Christine: If they say that and then you’re like [clicks tongue]. Um, Leona a– when I asked her like, “Oh, do you wanna go tell them that I wrote that book?” She was like, “Not really,” and I was like, “Cool, thanks.” [laughs]

Em: She’s gonna grow up thinking that just e-everyone does write a book eventually. So you know what maybe you’re actually–

Christine: [laughs] She’s not impressed.

Em: –encouraging her to normalize that for herself of like, “Oh, I’ll be an author. Obviously that’s just what happens.”

Christine: Yeah, the bar is super fucking high. You better become a bestseller, you know.

Em: One day she’ll realize and be like, “Oh, my mom’s cool.” One day.

Christine: I think she’ll be like, “Oh, then anyone can write a bestseller.” No, I’m just kidding. She’s–

Em: That’s what I’m saying. I feel like she–

Christine: Oh, oh, oh.

Em: You’re normalizing it for her that like it’s possible.

Christine: Oh, I see. I see. Well, hopefully. Um, hopefully.

Em: Anyway, how, how, how is she? Is there an update for the general public? How– What she’s into these days? And–

Christine: She's, she’s still scared of bears and wolves. Um, that is continuing. However, now we use a little, a little potion, a little cleansing spray in the room–

Em: Love.

Christine: –every night to kind of clear the energy and clear the air, and I’m not so subtly getting her into the witchiness.

Em: That’s fine.

Christine: I love it. It’s so fun.

Em: You could get her into, into worse, you know?

Christine: That’s r– I mean, that’s what I think, but we’ll see.

Em: I mean, and also like if you’re gonna be into witchy stuff and your mom’s gonna be into witchy stuff, there’s no such thing as being scared of monsters under your bed.

Christine: That’s right. That’s what I said. I was like, “There’s so much power you have.” Like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: You have power to keep, keep yourself safe, you know? And I just– I want– I, I don’t know. That’s where we’re at.

Em: This is why those Puritans were scared of us because they, they knew that we knew that we had power.

Christine: Ooh-la-la.

Em: Um, any plans–

Christine: That’s why they keep the matriarchy down.

Em: Any plans for the rest of the week before we record again?

Christine: I have no clue, Em. When do we record again?

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: Oh, okay. Um, you know, I don’t think I really have any plans. Uh, I just– taking my watercoloring course, you know, so I’m having fun with that.

Em: Are you ever gonna show us any of your watercolors?

Christine: Oh, I would love to. Um, I don’t have any here, but maybe for a Yappy Hour. Um, and then– Oh, maybe we could do a show-and-tell, and you could do like your, uh, ASL or something.

Em: [chuckles] Sure.

Christine: We could do like a little show-and-tell.

Em: Very cool. Okay, I will make sure to learn the word “watercolor” by then.

Christine: Or, or in archery or whatever the fuck you’re up to nowadays, you know?

Em: I, I do know that this is “water.”

[Em holds up three fingers in a W shape and taps the index to their chin.]

Em: And this is “color.”

[Em holds their fingers in front of their chin and wiggles them slightly.]

Em: So maybe that’s “watercolors.”

[Em repeats the signs].

Christine: [gasps]

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: I mean, that’s so cool. I wanna learn that.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Sorry. “Water.”

[Christine holds up three fingers in a W shape and taps the index to their chin.]

Em: “Water.” W.

[Em makes the sign for “water” again.]

Christine: “Water.”

[Christine makes the sign for “water” again.]

Em: “Water” “colors.”

Christine: “Water” “colors.”

[Em and Christine sign “water” and then “colors”.]

Christine: Ahh!

Em: [chuckles] I don’t know if that’s–

Christine: That’s–

Em: –actually appropriately “watercolors,” but, you know.

Christine: It's “water” plus “colors,” so I’ll take it.

Em: Yeah. Yeah, I’ll take it too. So alright. Well, we’ll see everybody next week for a show-and-tell of sorts–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and, uh, drink some water and take your vitamins and your medications.

Christine: But don’t, don’t drink the watercolor water ’cause Moonshine does that. And I’m like, “That’s gonna give you a tummyache.”

Em: Your throwup’s gonna be green, Moonshine. You know what I mean?

Christine: [sighs]

Em: And–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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