E479 Tonsil Hockey Olympics and Flying Pig Yoga

TOPICS: THE OLD WASHOE CLUB PT. 2, DOROTHY ARNOLD PT. 2

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Welcome to episode 479 where we're closing the loops and learning the difference between hockey at the summer vs winter Olympics AFTER purchasing tickets! First Em brings us hopefully the finale of the Zak Bagans Cinematic Universe series that has been haunting us with part two of the Old Washoe Club. Then Christine brings us another finale in part two of the story of the disappearance of Dorothy Arnold. And please join us in visiting the Cincinnati YMCA website for Christine's podcast promo at Qigong class... and that's why we drink!

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Transcript

[intro music]

Em: What to talk about today, Christine?

Christine: I’m at a loss.

Em: The sun is shining – here. I don’t know about anywhere else.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Um, just, just another sunny day in California.

Christine: Wow. Wow. No.

Em: H-How’s Kentucky? Treating you right?

Christine: You know, it’s just, just gorgeous over here. I really did feel like a fool for that– Did you hear what happened? You were out of town. I skipped part two of my story.

Em: I– [sighs] Sorry about that. That sounds bad. I–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I have a feeling we’re gonna right that wrong very quickly though.

Christine: I have a feeling I’m gonna do that today–

Em: ‘kay.

Christine: –um, part two of Dorothy Arnold, the socialite from Manhattan who, who disappeared in 1910. And I just was like, “Okay, bye.” [chuckles]

Em: You know, you were just, uh–

Christine: Oh, it was–

Em: –you were just stringing us along. You just wanted us to like really be on the edge of our seats. That’s all.

Christine: And then I just said, “Oh, I left you over here on the edge of your seat–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–oops, for three weeks. [chuckles] Oops.”

Em: We were on the edge of our seat in the movies, and you said you’d go grab some popcorn real quick, but then like you ended up hanging out with somebody. You went to the bathroom.

Christine: I found some Twizzlers.

Em: It became a, a long thing. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: That’s okay.

Christine: It’s tough.

Em: I, I think you’re gonna– I think it’s gonna be fine though.

Christine: Well, thank you. Everyone’s been very understanding and kind about it. Um, I’m gonna finish– I obviously have the notes. Like I did the notes, but I just thought I already did them, so I’m– on the show. So I’m gonna do that today. Um, so that I would say is one of the bigger reasons why I drink. Um, a– Well, actually, if you’d like me to go first, I have a very–

Em: Please.

Christine: –genuine reas-reason why I drink, which is– [laughs] So you know how I’ve been doing my qigong yoga?

Em: I, I sure do.

Christine: Yeah. So I went Friday with my mother as usual. And–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –of course, I wore my And That’s Why We Drink shirt because I have like six, and I just– I wore one of them, and I was standing there, and I was like, “Something’s gonna happen today.” I didn’t know what, but I was like, “Something’s a little funny in the air.”

Em: I see. Okay, okay. I like where we’re heading.

Christine: And my teacher, our instructor, stands up and goes, “Well, I heard that the local news is here at the Y today to film some promo, so– for the, for the upcoming Flying Pig Marathon that Cincinnati has every year.”

Em: Oh my.

Christine: “So, you know, if the camera people are in here, just– they said just pretend they’re not.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And we were like, “Ha-ha, okay.” You know, we’re just doing our thing. Like ten minutes in, I shit you not. This gigantic pig with wings, like this co– person in a mascot costume–

Em: Oh my.

Christine: –this giant pig with wings saunters on into the studio, the yoga studio.

Em: And what did you do?

Christine: Yeah, sli–

Em: What– Did you really–

Christine: –slightly disruptive.

Em: Did you ignore them like you were told [chuckles] or did you stare like I would?

Christine: We all, we all did a little giggle, and then we said, “Okay.” And the camera person said, “Don’t– Pretend like we’re not here. And this pig– this large pig is gonna stand in the middle of the room and do qigong [laughs] and just pretend like it’s normal.” And we said, “Okay.”

Em: Oh boy. I think you froze, friend.

Christine: So we’re standing there, and, you know, it’s so embarrassing. They start filming, and they have this like–

Em: Oh my.

Christine: –yeah, thing. Oh, wait. Can you hear me?

Em: Christine?

Christine: Uh-oh.

Em: Oh my. What a story to–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Hm.

Christine: Am I, am I back?

Em: Y-You are frozen.

Christine: Ah, shit.

Em: Take a little screenshot.

Christine: Shit.

Em: Just so you know what I’m looking at here.

Christine: [sighs]

Em: Can you hear me?

Christine: Yes.

Em: There’s a little picture for you. Oh, there you are.

Christine: I’m back?

Em: Yes, you’re back. But I–

Christine: Argh.

Em: Oh, I just saw you say that you can see and hear everything.

Christine: Yeah, it’s so annoying.

Em: I want–

Christine: I could see and hear e–

Em: For the last minute, that is what you looked like.

Christine: No! [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Terrible. Terrible screenshot.

Em: So, okay. I– You had me at pig, and then all of a sudden, it froze like–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It was almost– You know what? It was kind of like how you have to do a part two later now.

Christine: I– [laughs] I just unplugged from–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: You said, “I really wanna keep you on the edges of your seat again, so.”

Christine: “That’s enough,” I said. Uh, yeah, this pig comes in, and we’re thinking, “Okay, uh, whatever.” And I distinctly remember this woman has this camera, and she’s filming, and I remember thinking– I knew the moment, I knew the moment– They were there for 15 minutes. My mother and I discussed later. We both knew the exact moment that was gonna be used for the footage. We knew it. We felt it.

Em: Okay. [laughs]

Christine: Because it was– We had done all these like cool poses where I felt– I was like, “I’m looking so skinny with my arm up like this. I bet you I’m gonna look so good on the local news.” And like I’m just thinking– And there’s this one part where our teacher says, “Now pull the energy,” and she plays like all like R&B and blues music and like, um, kind of like old school ballads, you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And so one of the ballads that was playing at the time, um, which you can actually hear in the footage, is, um– I think it was, “I Will Always Love You” or, uh–

Em: Love it.

Christine: –or maybe it was a Whitney Houston. I’m not sure, but it was something quite fitting. And she said, “Now pick the energy and fl– move it in a flow.” And, and the way I tell you, my mother and I, these two white German women–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –like standing there moving the flow of energy, and I feel the camera on us, and I go, “This is it. This is the moment.” I mean, it’s just like I feel it.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I shit you not– It was my stepdad’s birthday. We get home that night, and I’m like, “Happy birthday. I’m gonna go look this up.” And it’s on the internet, my friend. It’s on the internet.

Em: Oh.

Christine: And I– The way that I laugh– I laughed– I think I laughed and cried and screamed for like an hour. It was– I’m gonna send you the clip ’cause it really is just so embarrassing. But this, this gives you an idea– Like I feel like the universe– I was trying to explain qigong, and the universe was like, “I know. We’ll show them.”

Em: They said actually, “Shut up. Uh, we’ll just–“

Christine: “Easy. [laughs] Sit down.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um, yeah. So I– It’s, it’s publicly on the YMCA– Cincinnati YMCA’s page. Um, also I’m like, this isn’t the local news. Are we just like bullying m– cyberbullying me?

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Is that what we’re doing?

Em: It’s–

Christine: Like where’s the local news?

Em: I have never known anyone braver for, for you to tell everybody about this.

Christine: It’s almost like I don’t know how not to. Like it’s like I feel like this is what the universe needs me to do next, which is so unfortunate.

Em: Because you could have just said nothing and then hoped nobody ever found out.

Christine: I could have, but I just felt like that wasn’t an option. [laughs]

Em: I can’t– May I click through and watch this?

Christine: Please. It’s very short–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –and it’s– You can barely see it, but the screenshots my brother has taken–

Em: Ohh. Ohh. It actually– You really actually don’t look as bad as I think your brain’s telling you you thought you did.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: That was, that was a very quick moment, and you did look like you knew what you were doing.

Christine: Thank you. I, uh, I’ll show you the screenshot that my brother sent my entire family. Um–

Em: Oh, thank you. That is what I would like to see.

Christine: Yeah, it’s super good. It’s super good.

Em: Um, no, you–

Christine: And really, really rude.

Em: –you– It was very fleeting. So you got out of there quick, and the main focus–

Christine: I’m thankful for that.

Em: –was on this like little tutu pig.

Christine: Yeah. Big time thankful for being only–

Em: Yeah, I think I–

Christine: –for a brief moment, but it is our podcast, you know, and so I think, uh, at least I was representing.

Em: [chuckles] Promo!

Christine: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, oh, here’s the picture that my brother sent. Super great. Thanks, Xandy. You’re such a gem.

Em: Let’s see it.

Christine: Oh, it broke my phone.

Em: Oh, good.

Christine: That feels good.

Em: It’s like when like you look in the mirror and it shatters, you know?

Christine: [laughs] That’s kind of–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um, I couldn’t even hear what song was playing that time. I, I forget. But it’s, it’s absurd. If– Anyway, if, if you wanna share it, Megan, to social media, you can. I don’t know.

Em: That looks–

Christine: We’ll get the Y some press. You know, the Y, it’s a great place.

Em: We’re accidentally doing like a cross-promotion with the Y.

Christine: I mean–

Em: Love that.

Christine: –I feel like we say accidental, and again, the universe is like, “This is all part of the plan.”

Em: I–

Christine: Okay, I’m sending this to you. Whoops.

Em: Perfect. Bated breath I have over here.

Christine: It’s really silly. It’s so silly.

Em: Does, does the pig have a name? The mascot?

Christine: Fuck if I know. I really–

Em: Oh! See?

[A vertical full-body picture of Christine fades into the middle of the screen. It’s shot from the YMCA promo video. Christine is standing on a yoga mat in a green and black tie-dye And That’s Why We Drink shirt, black joggers, and grey socks with pink, blue, and purple around the ankles. She is intently watching someone offscreen with one arm at her side and the other raised in front of her, palm facing her.]

Christine: I have no–

Em: You look like– That’s not, that’s not even–

Christine: Oh, well–

Em: That’s a good form.

Christine: I mean, he sent it with like the, um, with the– basically the implication derogatory, you know.

[The picture of Christine fades away.]

Em: Yeah, I can sense that the intention was supposed to be evil, but it actually–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: You look like you know what the fuck you’re doing.

Christine: Thank you. I was trying so hard to look like what I was doing– like I knew what I was doing that it feels sort of absurd to me like– ’Cause I clearly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing. [laughs]

Em: It’s kinda giving–

Christine: Um, I, I think it’s the fact that I–

Em: It’s kind of giving superhero. I’m so sorry.

Christine: Oh!

Em: It’s kind of giving superhero.

Christine: I love that for me.

Em: It’s kind of like a Black Widow situation.

Christine: Um, I was even wearing my bisexual socks. Do you see them? My bisexual socks that day. Oh, and I’m wearing my Boston University sweatpants. So I’m very bi– I’m very Em-and-Christine-coded in this picture.

Em: [chuckles] I like that I’m clumped into the bi vibe, but I love it.

Christine: Yeah, not the bisexual, but the BU and the A– ATWWD.

Em: [chuckles] Well, I appreciate– No, you do, you do look bi. I’m gonna be honest. You do look like a bisexual.

Christine: Yeah, that part’s not, not a question. Yeah.

Em: It is– I think it’s the way that your arm is– You’re kind of flexing a muscle. You’re looking like a “Hey Mamas” a little bit. Um–

Christine: Again, really trying on purpose that, and I’m glad it came through.

Em: But you look good! You look good.

Christine: Thank you. I mean, thanks. You know, I’ve been feeling good. I’ve been doing the, doing the yoga and the qigong and the smacking myself to get the energy moving, you know.

Em: Good. No, no, no. It shows. It looks– You could have looked a lot worse, a lot worse.

Christine: Thank you. That’s all– You know what? Thank you. That–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I like that. I, I will take that. Um–

Em: Did, did we, did we hear– I know I just asked, but the pig’s name– Is there a mascot pig–

Christine: Oh, I, I don’t fucking know. I didn’t even know there was a like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I didn’t know that was a thing.

Em: Okay.

Christine: You know, it’s not like a thing that I– I think they just say “Flying Pig.”

Em: Okay. Sick.

Christine: Yeah. Pretty sick.

Em: What is the reason for this event in Kentucky?

Christine: Uh, it’s in Cincinnati.

Em: Oh.

Christine: They do the Flying Pig Marathon every year. It’s like just a long-running tradi– [chuckles] long running [clicks her tongue] tradition.

Em: Love it.

Christine: Um, and Leona’s doing like a mini kids’ race or something. I don’t know.

Em: Ooh. A piglet.

Christine: They just have like– Yeah, little piglet race! That’s cute.

Em: The Flying Piglet.

Christine: Flying Piglets.

Em: Aw.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Is she gonna be all pink with her little piggy nose?

Christine: She sure is.

Em: So cute.

Christine: And they’re tie-dying pink shirts, so she’s in heaven right now.

Em: Oh, that sounds so fun.

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Um, I would be drinking something except that I fell asleep into a nap as I was texting Em that I needed ten more minutes, and my alarm– as I was hitting “okay,” I fell asleep and did not hit “okay.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So I raced up here half an hour late, and now I don’t have a beverage, so I’m fine. But–

Em: One, if you ever need to take a nap and it– please don’t make it– please think higher of me to give you–

Christine: No–

Em: –only ten more minutes. Like, please–

Christine: You’re, you’re right. You, you literally said–

Em: Next time say, “I need an hour.”

Christine: –“I’m gonna give her the time.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: And two, if you’d like to go–

Christine: It wasn’t–

Em: –get a drink, you can.

Christine: Thank you. I might do it during the halftime show, you know.

Em: I see. I see.

Christine: How– What about you? What are you drinking/why?

Em: I drink– I don’t know what the hell’s going on with my phone. I’m getting notific– Leave me alone. You know what I mean? Um–

Christine: Oh my gosh, you’re so popular.

Em: I think it’s like– I don’t know what it is.

Christine: A group chat?

Em: I– No, my phone is doing that thing where I’m getting like a shitload of spam texts. It’s very annoying. Um–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: I’m drinking–

Christine: And they’re like, “Hi, I wanna play golf with you next Wednesday.” And I’m like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –“What the fuck kind of spam is this?” It’s so weird.

Em: It’s like you can’t possibly think I would respond to that.

Christine: Like, [laughs] yeah. Do you think– And they’re like, “I’m Albert,” and I’m like, “That’s the name?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Really?”

Em: It’s like do a little recon before you just do this.

Christine: Jesus. Right.

Em: Anyway, I am drinking an L. Foggy. And then I have–

Christine: Nice.

Em: –a Propel as my backup ’cause I have a feeling–

Christine: Ooh!

Em: –I’ll gulp this down pretty quick. Um, I drink– a few reasons, but the one that I’ll go with today is that I live in LA, as you know. You’ve been there.

Christine: Sunny California.

Em: Sunny California. And I– My lottery slot– I don’t know what the right phrasing is, but my slot opened for me to get tickets to the Olympics in two years.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And by the time my slot was open, a lot of like the most popular things were already closed, so great.

Christine: Right.

Em: So I was like, “Oh, what to do? What to do?” And I was like, I should make this a gift opportunity, and I should like– ’Cause I don’t care about any of the sports that are available to me, so I’m just gonna do something that would make like my parents really happy and like–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –and they can come to the Olympics, and it’ll be like a big moment for them. So I was like–

Christine: Nice.

Em: –looking through it, and I was like, “Oh, I see baseball here. Like Tom would really like baseball. I should do baseball.” So I called my mom, and I– The tickets were a little “holy shit.” So I called my mom, and I was like, “Let’s go splitsies and make this like–“

Christine: Mm.

Em: “–a multi– a gift across the next two years.” [chuckles]

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And, um– and I was reading off the rest of the sports to her, and then we got to hockey, and Tom’s obsessed with hockey, obsessed with hoc–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: Like more than baseball. And so my mom was like, “Don’t get baseball. Get the hockey ones.” And I went, “Okay, great.” So we got the hockey ones. Um, and I– And she was like, “Oh, I can’t, I can’t keep it in. I have to tell him. I wanna tell him. I wanna tell him.” I was like, “You need to figure it out ’cause like–“

Christine: Linda…

Em: “–this is gonna be a great gift in like two years. So like–“

Christine: Like shut up, Linda.

Em: “–just forget we ever did this even though it was like super expensive.” I need to emphasize it was super expensive. Because I got him, um, the men’s hockey, like the final, the final game, like the final one. And it was–

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: Yeah. Yeah. I was like, “This will be a payment plan across two years for sure.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and then, and then we couldn’t keep it in, ended up telling Tom–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –and he then went, “Oh, but isn’t it the Summer Olympics? Why would–“

Christine: Well, that’s what I–

Em: “Why would ice hockey be there?” And I went, “Let me look at the tickets.” And I realized it just generically says “hockey,” and I assumed–

Christine: It’s–

Em: –ice hockey.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And my mom and I really committed to the bit and got four tickets to the final game of men’s field hockey.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs] And now for the next two years, we get to all, as a family, get really into field hockey, so that way we–

Christine: You’re–

Em: –care about this. [laughs]

Christine: –kidding me.

Em: Yeah. I– Didn’t even occur to me. Um, and my mom and I–

Christine: That’s–

Em: –looked at each other like, “We don’t b– We don’t deserve wallets for the next week at least.”

Christine: Wow. I am–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Wow, that was quite a plot twist. Holy shit. ’Cause I was–

Em: You know what? Fuck you, Olympics. Because why on earth would you put “hockey”? Maybe it’s my own problem ’cause I don’t follow sports and I should have known that ice hockey is a winter sport. Didn’t occur to me. Why did you put “hockey”? I know someone knew that I– people like me wouldn’t know and just click, thinking it was a different type of hockey.

Christine: Ho-hockey. Yeah.

Em: ’Cause they– The, the price suggested it was ice hockey, not field hockey. You know what I’m saying?

Christine: I, I guess. I mean, I don’t fucking know a thing about field hockey. I guess– So yeah. So I guess I’m surprised they’re so expensive, but I guess it’s the Olympics. I don’t know.

Em: I don’t know. Maybe I thought the price made more sense because I’m, I’m in a hockey family, and so I know what those prices go for versus like field ho– But like I–

Christine: [chuckles] Are you in a hockey family? You barely even know the difference between different types of hockey as far as I can tell?

Em: You know what? You fucking called me out. Thank you so much.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I– But I would consider– Anytime I go home, oh my gosh, just hockey, hockey, hockey. Every TV has a different hockey game playing. Like he’s, he’s obsessed with hockey. So I– All I saw was the word hockey, and I just tunnel-visioned into “We gotta get these tickets. It’s gonna blow his mind.” And then now–

Christine: At least it’s not air hockey.

Em: No, that would be so much better.

Christine: I know.

Em: That’d be so much better.

Christine: I know. I was trying to make it sound good, but then I was like, “Actually, that’s way better.”

Em: Well–

Christine: Air hockey would be cool.

Em: –Mom bought two tickets. I bought two tickets ’cause I was like, “Oh, Allison, you’re– we’re all gonna go as a family.” And so I just had to break the news to Allison–

Christine: And Allison’s gonna go, “I love field hockey.” [laughs]

Em: No, I told her, and I was like, “So it’s not ice hockey,” and she went, “Is it street hockey?” And I went, “I think it’s kind of worse.” [laughs] I was like–

Christine: I wish it were. I mean, street hockey would be cool. Tonsil–

Em: I think street hockey would be sick.

Christine: Tonsil hockey. Okay. Wait, what– [laughs]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Wait. And it’s men’s field hockey?

Em: It’s–

Christine: I didn’t know that–

Em: It’s– In– It’s not in– In the US, that’s not a common thing, but–

Christine: It’s not a common thing.

Em: So you know, my friend, Claudy, her whole family is from England, and it’s a– very common there for field hockey to be a men’s sport. So–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: So we were thinking– we were like, “Maybe we just get the tickets to them ’cause they’ll love it.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But, um, no, I’m gonna commit to the bit. I need to learn something about my–

Christine: Okay.

Em: I’m gonna, I’m gonna take the lesson. And I–

Christine: Did you play field hockey or anything?

Em: I played during f– one summer camp when I was a little kid, and then I went–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –“This is not for me.” You?

Christine: It was big at my school, but I did not play it.

Em: It was, I would say, probably at– if not the biggest sport at my school, it was one of the top three.

Christine: Same.

Em: But–

Christine: I think it’s like a preppy thing.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like I think it’s like a– at least in our, in our world, it was.

Em: We apparently had a really good field hockey team, but I, I tried one time, and then like the sticks hit my fingers, and I went, “Fuck this.” You know what I mean?

Christine: Ow. Yeah. No.

Em: I’m out. So, um–

Christine: No.

Em: Anyway, I– That’s why I drink because– [sighs] Whatever.

Christine: That’s like genuinely pretty fucking hilarious. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] So if anyone– And I’m not trying to like shit on field hockey in a way where it’s like, “Oh, fuck that sport.” It’s just like, I know nothing about that. No one in the family cares about it. I spent way too much money thinking I was giving someone an excellent gift, and now all of us are stuck in this situation. [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: So, um, if you happen to be a big field hockey fan, I’ll see you at the Olympics in two years, I guess.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: I can’t wait for you to get s– fixated on fucking field hockey.

Em: I fucking better ’cause if I’m gonna be there– and also keep in mind, it’ll be LA in July, and I’m on an open field all day. It’s gonna be the hottest time of my life.

Christine: You were like, “Perfect. I’ll be on the ice.”

Em: I literally thought– I was like, “This is so wonderful. I’m gonna be– just gonna be chilly. Oh my god.”

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Nope. But I thought– I saw like it was a stadium or a field or something, and I was like, “Well, obviously it’s a rink.” It didn’t occur to me–

Christine: “A stadium or a field or something.”

Em: It was– Like it– Like there was a, a name for it, like the location where the, the, the game will be, and I was like–

Christine: An arena.

Em: Something like that. And I was like, “Oh–“ It didn’t occur to me.” I was like, “Well, there’s fucking ice rinks right now.”

Christine: I mean–

Em: Like– [sighs]

Christine: –I just would have thought you meant ice hockey. I don’t know. Even though–

Em: I did too.

Christine: Like obviously it’s a winter sport. I get that. But like I don’t know. I wasn’t gonna question you on it. Like–

Em: Especially–

Christine: –how the fuck do I know?

Em: I, I know that the Olympics is literally supposed to be a uniting across the nations sport. So like–

Christine: [blows raspberry]

Em: –I should have thought that maybe there would be sports that the US does not play there. But, um, stupid American brain, I saw hockey and assumed the hockey that we all see here. So I was like– It didn’t occur to me, so. Anyway, that’s why I drink.

Christine: That’s hilarious. I mean, if you’d gone with the baseball, you know.

Em: I literally told my mom that. I was like, “I should have never talked to you. I should have just–“

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, you– Yeah. She kind of– But I’m glad that she spilled the beans ’cause that– now– what a, what a shock to find that out in two years, you know?

Em: Imagine I’ve been holding on to this really good surprise for two years, and I’m like–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –“We’re driving up to the ice rink,” and I’m like, “Where is it?” [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] It’s just grass. “We’re driving up to– Hey, hey, Tom. Don’t forget to bring your jacket and your scarf.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That’s so funny.

Em: Anyway–

Christine: It's so funny. [chuckles]

Em: –I– That– Anyway, so that’s, that’s my reason. Um, man, what a silly day, what a silly day that was.

Christine: That’s good. That’s good stuff. Listen.

Em: [sighs] So anyway, on to these stories. What’s fun about my story this week, um, is that you’re doing a part two, I’m also doing a part two. So I guess we’re closing, closing the loops on things.

Christine: I see. I’m just– Yeah, just a little behind, but I will do it today alongside you.

Em: I don’t think you probably remember what my part two is.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Mm.

Christine: No, no.

Em: Hopefully–

Christine: Oh, wait. Zak Bagans.

Em: Yeah. I was gonna say hopefully this is the final, the, the finale of the series that has been following us–

Christine: Yeah. That’s what we say every time.

Em: I know. He really weaves a web. So, um–

Christine: And I think that’s part of it. I was so excited to cover that couple we talked about, like to go–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –dig into that story, the Constantinos. I think I just like jumped into those res– those notes and like did not look back, you know.

Em: I– And I understand, but then it just o– And I’m not complaining because it gave me topics without having to like even research the to– Like you– I didn’t have to go look up like something to cover.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: It was like, “Well, this is obviously what I’m doing next.” But I’m like, “Damn it. Can we walk away from this Zak Bagans lineup?”

Christine: Like man, the, the, the lore, the world, the cinematic universe is getting just more and more complex in there.

Em: [laughs] The ZBCU. Yeah.

Christine: Oh, kill me. God.

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Em’s Story – The Old Washoe Club - Part 2

Em: Okay. So hopefully this is the end of it all. It never is–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –but, um, this is part two of the Old Washoe Club.

Christine: Okay. Okay.

Em: This, this section in particular is just the Zak Bagans coverage of this because it was too much for me to cover in the, in the first part.

Christine: Okay. Great.

Em: To give people a catch up on the Old Washoe Club– I will be butchering this catch up, but– I’m giving you very quick bullet points is that this was a very fancy millionaires’ club, um, in Nevada during like the silver mining explosion, the boom, if you will. Um, it started as this really grand place in one location, then a fire burnt it down immediately after. Then it got built, um, above the still standing oldest saloon in the area. Um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –then that went out, and it became like offices and apartments for a while. Uh, and the saloon still exists. The saloon is also still haunted. So the club, for a while, um, it has been– or for a long while now, it’s been known as incredibly haunted. They have ghosts, such as the Lady in Blue named Lena who was maybe killed by, uh, a woman who found out that she was sleeping with her husband.

Christine: Oh, right.

Em: There–

Christine: On the stairs? Right?

Em: On the stairs. Yes. There’s a spiral staircase there. There are, um, little kids who got hit by a horse and wagons and then ended up dying in the building.

Christine: Mm. [sighs]

Em: There is a man who died by a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Uh, downstairs in the saloon, there is a room called The Crypt because it temporarily stayed as a morgue for a while and is now just a storage room in the bar. But in there is that ghost, Randall, who looks like the Monsters Inc. Randall, and he crawls all over the walls.

Christine: [gasps] Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Em: So–

Christine: No. No, thank you.

Em: [chuckles] It’s a big no. It’s a big no. And then, uh–

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: –a, a series of other ghosts shortly. So–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –that’s my very quick, uh, haphazardly [pronounced “half-haz-are-dly”]–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –situation there.

Christine: I remember it well.

Em: Okay. So now this is– I don’t know how much of it I said to you or how much of it I said in my own head, so I’m just gonna kind of word vomit, and sorry if this is repetitive to people. But, um, as we talked about at the beginning of this fucking ZBCU–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –timeline, there– the original, original, original Ghost Adventures was a 2004 documentary of Zak going through, um, different locations in Nevada trying to find ghosts after he just–

Christine: Yes.

Em: [mimicking Zac Bagans] –came face-to-face with one.

Christine: [laughs] And he’s like, “Where are they?”

Em: [chuckles] And so I watched that documentary, and last time, I thought I gave you a full recap on that.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I was wrong.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: I gave you a recap of only the location, the Goldfield Hotel. I, I apparently only watched that section because it was relevant to the topic at the time. I had no idea–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –it would– this would all balloon into me talking about multiple locations. So I’m now here to talk about another portion of the documentary.

Christine: Oh, so this was in the documentary?

Em: This location was in the documentary.

Christine: Gotcha.

Em: It was just not the part that had the mind-blowing brick being thrown at the Goldfield Hotel–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –experience that ev–

Christine: Right.

Em: That was like a huge portion of the documentary. The other parts were much smaller.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So, uh, remember I told you I know this was a while ago, so I’m sorry to make you jog your memory on this, but remember I told you during the original documentary it was just Nick and Zak, and Aaron for some reason wasn’t there.

Christine: Yes.

Em: Even though he was like in random clips I saw of like the promo of it, and he was clearly there, but he wasn’t for some reason in the Goldfield Hotel.

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: Okay. So we have cracked the case on that. I just needed to watch the rest of the fucking movie. Um, and Aaron was there, and he just was not there for the Goldfield Hotel investigation.

Christine: Okay, okay.

Em: Um, but he was there for earlier locations–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –including the Old Washoe Club. So disregard me if you go back to that episode like maybe five episodes ago now. Please disregard me saying he was not in the documentary.

Christine: Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, ’cause he had like left early or something or like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I forget. Okay.

Em: Yeah, we made some sort of joke about like, “Oh, he must have left ’cause they weren’t finding any ghosts, and he was fed up,” or something. But I–

Christine: And then Zak was like, “No, I’m gonna prove it–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–and get all the ghosts I can and blame Aaron for it.” Yeah.

Em: Which I do like that storyline more, but I– it has now been proven that he just wasn’t there for some reason.

Christine: Debunked.

Em: Uh– [mimes a mic drop]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: So for those who care, if you were to watch the original 2004 documentary, Ghost Adventures, um, the Goldfield Hotel starts at minute 38:00 and goes all the way to the end.

Christine: Okay.

Em: The first 38 minutes ar– have a few locations, uh, but the Washoe Club is minute 14:00-38:00–

Christine: Okay, okay, okay.

Em: –in case you care about time codes here. So we’re talking about from 14:00-38:00 here. Um, by the way, now that I’ve gone back, I, I clicked the same link to watch that documentary again from the last time I did, and I– the comments have updated since then because it’s been a few weeks. And apparently, people who listened to our episode about the documentary–

Christine: No.

Em: –then watched it there and left comments–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and then– So then I got to wa– I, I would have never known if I didn’t have to re-click the–

Christine: Shut the fuck up.

Em: –the link. So shout out to Chef and Alexandra for leaving comments–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –that they only found this through ATWWD.

Christine: Hey, that makes me so happy.

Em: I know. I would have not known the– [chuckles]

Christine: Spreading the love out in the world.

Em: –the effects we cause.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So my favorite thing about this– I cannot confirm this. I feel like you have better snooping skills than I do, so maybe you would be able to find it. But in this clipping of the documentary where they’re talking about the Old Washoe Club, they show, uh, like a– you know, sometimes they show like a still image, and it kind of–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –just sits there for a second? It was of a news article from the Associated Press, talking about how, uh– the, the exact phrasing was “‘Spirited’ bar target of visit.” Um–

Christine: [chuckles] “Spirited bar target of visit.” Okay.

Em: Which apparently– I don’t know if this was the first, but it was at least one of the first, news articles that would have talked about “the ghost hunters”–

Christine: Ah.

Em: –three local “ghost hunters”–

Christine: Descending.

Em: –coming to check this place out.

Christine: Descending upon us. Yes.

Em: The first line of the article, which I was able to see on the, the screenshot, was, “Three ‘ghost-busters’ from Reno–“

Christine: [snorts]

Em: “–plan to show up today at the Old Washoe Club Saloon, whose owner is complaining about spirits who are getting pushy and scaring people.” Um–

Christine: Wow.

Em: They did s– This is– I’m only bringing this up because if you are better at snooping than I am, maybe you can help me. But I could not find that article anywhere.

Christine: Really?

Em: And I have a Newspapers.com account. But so it was– it literally s– The title is “‘Spirited’ bar target of visit,” and then I, I say that whole line because I looked all that up, and I couldn’t find it anywhere. So I’m like, was that– That was– They wouldn’t fake a news article. That’s crazy.

Christine: Ah. Sh– [chuckles] Okay. I mean–

Em: I don’t–

Christine: –if anyone would fake a news article– But I don’t– allegedly.

Em: Yeah. I don’t know.

Christine: Does it say what newspaper that is?

Em: The Associated Press.

Christine: Oh, it says Associated Press. Oh, Jesus.

Em: I know. So I was like, “Where is this?” I don’t know.

Christine: “Three ghost-busters.” I love that.

Em: I love that they were still so new though that they had to go by that. They didn’t have a name yet. That's–

Christine: I know. It’s not like “television superstar,” you know.

Em: Humble beginnings.

Christine: Wow.

Em: So, um– Okay. So Zak says that the second and third floors are super haunted and just happen to be off-limits. So I don’t know if– Was he not allowed up there? Was– He seemed–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –like he wasn’t allowed up there. It– Then at some point, it did become accessible for people who went on tours. I don’t know if it’s still accessible. You and I spoke about how we would not touch that staircase ’cause it was very old and didn’t have a supporting pole through.

Christine: Oh, yeah. I don’t think so. No, no.

Em: So one of the other things that I thought was really funny is just– it shows you truly the humble beginnings of Zak Bagans where things would freak him out so quickly.

Christine: [chuckles] Aw.

Em: Because, um–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –they are talking about the stairs, and they’re just barely on the stairs, and one of them has chills, and that was enough for Zak to say, “Let’s get the fuck out of here.” Literally– He was–

Christine: Because he had chills? Oh my god.

Em: He literally says, “Let’s get Nick and get out of here.” Those are– That’s his quote.

Christine: Wow. He, he’s grown.

Em: I know. But like also I don’t know what stage I’m in in my ghost hunting, but that alone would also make me wanna leave, but I’m just a scaredy-cat. But I was like, “Oh, it’s nice that somewhere in the timeline, Zak and I could have gone ghost hunting together and both just been freaked out enough to just–“

Christine: And–

Em: “–get the hell out of Dodge.”

Christine: –totally been on the same wavelength. Yeah. That’s–

Em: Without judgment. Yeah.

Christine: Wow. That’s a beautiful thought, Em.

Em: Uh, they then heard a little girl’s voice, and then at 19:27, in case you care about the timecode since people do actually go watch these things after we talk about them–

Christine: [chuckles] Mm-hmm.

Em: –this is where they had like their best, uh, their best footage of the night in this location. So at Goldfield Hotel was the brick getting thrown, and that got much more play. But–

Christine: Right.

Em: –in, in, in here, they got an apparition of something walking across the room–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –like follow– So Nick was in the room, and then he leaves, and then this apparition follows Nick–

Christine: Spooky.

Em: –out of the frame. And I will say–

Christine: Ew!

Em: –it is actually– as long as it wasn’t tampered with, and I don’t know anything about that, but it does look like– You can see the legs walking like this. 

[Em holds their hand up, using two fingers to mimic walking across in front of them.]

Christine: I for– I don’t like that. I mean, listen, I’m always like benefit of the doubt– not always, obviously, especially with, uh, ZB, but like I, I don’t know. I feel like that would be a wild thing to just– If I find out the newspaper article was faked, then I might believe that this part was fake.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: If– But otherwise, I’m like, I f– I believe that they caught something creepy like–

Em: I think so. And I, I think originally a lot of people thought, oh, it might be Nick’s shadow because if he just walked out of frame and now you’re seeing walking behind him.

Christine: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Em: But I, I guess they were able to debunk that in some way. I don’t totally understand. But it did– it looked odd. It certainly was freaky.

Christine: Spooky.

Em: Um, so they did have video analysts check it out who said it wasn’t tampered with, but I never know if I believe that shit.

Christine: Yeah. Right.

Em: But between that clip and the–

Christine: The AP News reported it, is what I heard.

Em: [laughs] Right.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Between that clip of something walking by and the clip of the brick getting thrown later in the documentary, I can see why he got a fucking TV deal.

Christine: I mean, yeah. And especially because that was such a new thing. Like people–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: People were like, “Ooh, that’s kind of creepy. What is this all about? Like–“

Em: I agree.

Christine: “–I don’t believe in ghosts, but–“ You know, and now it’s just so much more acceptable.

Em: I fully agree. I–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: If, if it were like today, I think he might have gotten like one news outlet asking about it, and then no one would have ever heard about it again. Or it would like go viral on TikTok, and we’d never hear about it again.

Christine: Yeah. No, totally. He would– I mean, not to like, don’t ever tell him I said this, but he’s kind of a visionary, you know.

Em: The way that I have said– There is evidence somewhere out there on this podcast of me saying he is a business mogul. He–

Christine: Oh, big time.

Em: I don’t care for some of his behaviors, but I gotta pat him on the back for really coming in at the right time.

Christine: He is a successful motherfucker.

Em: [laughs] He is. I can’t– You can’t deny that.

Christine: [chuckles] Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, so anyway this clip l–

Christine: Can’t be debunked.

Em: [laughs] This clip, like the brick clip, did get a lot of news coverage. Um, I think– The brick one was the one that was the big famous one–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –but this one did get on news outlets. And I tried finding those clips. I could not, but they did show like, like little pieces of the clips in the documentary.

Christine: Okay, okay.

Em: So I know that they exist, and I thought it would be so funny because it, it literally is just that– at the time they didn’t have any muscles or anything. It was just three lanky men just kind of sitting in a–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –in a news– like they were sitting on–

Christine: “Three ghost-busters from Reno, Nevada.”

Em: They were sitting on these little bar stools like getting interviewed, and they all looked like they weren’t like familiar with cameras. It was very cute.

Christine: Oh my god, they’re so like, like nervous. Oh!

Em: Um, one of them was actually– I just– I titled it in case people wanted to try to google it for themselves, but it was Las Vegas 1 was the channel.

Christine: Okay.

Em: They interviewed Zak, and I will say–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –his final form did show itself a little bit there because he– it–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I think this was a clip in the documentary. He was very intense with the interviewer for no fucking reason.

Christine: Oh god. So he’s like you can see him evolving.

Em: Literally–

Christine: Oh god.

Em: –like the second he got one ounce of evidence and then someone put a camera in front of him to ask about it, it began.

Christine: Like the formula began to, yeah, take hold. That’s fascinating.

Em: There were signs early on. There were signs. [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs] There were signs. We should have seen it.

Em: [laughs] So that’s all that we got from the documentary, but since then, as you’ve mentioned, um, he did go back and–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –uh, do two more episodes on his, later to be very popular, Ghost Adventures TV show.

Christine: Right, right.

Em: So I’m gonna talk about both those episodes. Um–

Christine: Okay, great.

Em: And I would like to also formally apologize to people who don’t like the fact that some of these episodes have just become recap episodes, but I can’t control what happens when Zak Bagans is slam dunking everywhere. All of a sudden–

Christine: It’s his world.

Em: –I have to cover it.

Christine: We're just living in it.

Em: We’re just living in it.

Christine: We’re trying to survive. Okay?

Em: I’m actively trying to get out of the ZBCU as I’ve discussed. So like just hang in there for like this episode, and then we’ll get back to our regular programming.

Christine: If I’m being like fully honest, I feel like I’m the one holding on a little too tight. You know?

Em: I mean, I’m having a good time, but I’m also trying to keep the masses happy. You know what I’m saying?

Christine: I get it. I get it. It’s a hard balance.

Em: It’s tough. It’s a really– [sighs] It’s so tough. Um–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Thank you everyone for your patience. So–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –two episodes of Ghost Adventures. One of them is in 2009, which was five years after the documentary came out.

Christine: Wow.

Em: So it was season– somehow season three. I guess there was a couple years before the show actually took off from the documentary. Um–

Christine: He had to get his wardrobe figured out first.

Em: He needed to grow a couple muscles–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –get his attitude like out of check, and then–

Christine: Like really fuck up his own attitude. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] And, uh, so in 2009, it is season three and episode six. I hate to report that I only found it on Prime Video. So sorry.

Christine: Oh, yuck. But I mean, you know, got to do what you got to do.

Em: The other one was nine years later in 2018, not too long ago in my brain, even though–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –it was actually like eight years ago.

Christine: Oh, yikes. Yeah, that’s when I got married.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That feels ancient now.

Em: A lifetime ago, but really the number doesn’t add up to me. Um, that was season 20, which he moves very fast if he went f– that’s 17–

Christine: 20?

Em: –17 seasons in nine years. That man–

Christine: Jesus fucking–

Em: I’m telling you, business mogul.

Christine: I mean, and that was like the second year of our podcast. So it’s like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –Jesus Christ, we’re getting s– we’re smoked.

Em: It was, uh, season 20, episode 3–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –and it’s called “The Final Chapter.” Of course.

Christine: Of course. It’s always the final chapter. Yes.

Em: And you know what? When he went back to the Goldfield Hotel, if you remember, that episode was called “The Final Chapter.” Every–

Christine: It’s never the final chapter. Let’s be so for real.

Em: I feel like any location he went to in that documentary has since gotten a “Final Chapter” episode–

Christine: 100%.

Em: –because he’s just so fucking sick of going there, you know?

Christine: And then on the final– on his deathbed, he’s gonna say, “This is the final chapter.” He’s gonna come back as a fucking ghost, and we’re gonna see another final–

Em: It’ll be called something like [in a low, dramatic voice] “Resurrection,” like–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: With like all the– like the goth font, you know?

Em: Yes. Yes. Okay. So the first episode we’re gonna talk about is the 2009 one, season three.

Christine: Precious.

Em: They come back because the– They just called them at the time “the investigators.”, uh, other investigators–

Christine: So they’re not “ghost-busters” anymore. They’re investigators now.

Em: No, no, hang on. I’m– I’ve said it wrong so far. You, you, you are on the right track based on how I said it. Hang on. Zak and his crew are giving a little like intro about why they’re going back after all this time, all five years ago, because–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –newer investigators since then have been getting EVPs, and those investigators were the Constantinos.

Christine: [gasps] I see.

Em: So I think this is where he met them.

Christine: Ah-oh, these new invest– Oh, wow. So– Okay. Wow. Wow.

Em: And as you mentioned in your episode about the Constantinos–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –they were very good at getting EVPs.

Christine: Wow. That’s kind of mind-boggling. Okay.

Em: I know. It’s really the watching, watching the story all click finally.

Christine: Ooh, yeah. It’s a little freaky–

Em: So–

Christine: –like looking back.

Em: –they did get some pretty good EVPs, and the EVPs they were getting, which attracted the Ghost Adventures crew and intrigued them enough to come back–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –was that these EVPs were saying the Ghost Adventures crew’s names.

Christine: [gasps] They were summoning them back?

Em: Five years later. They’re s– And you know Zak ate that shit up. He’s like, “They’re still talking about me.”

Christine: Ohh.

Em: “Oh my god.”

Christine: He– A couple muscles sprouted just when he heard that.

Em: Yeah. [laughs] He like–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: His ears perked like a dog.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: He’s like, “Who? What?”

Christine: Yeah. Yes. His head tilted, and he was coming for him. Oh my god.

Em: And you know what? I can’t– I mean, I would be horrified. However, I got to be honest, my ego would be up a little bit if I found out that like my very first ghost I ever hunted still think of me. I’d be like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –“Oh my god, me too.” You know what I mean?

Christine: I’m like, “Really? O– I mean, okay. I guess I’m pretty memorable. Yeah.”

Em: Like if you had an Instagram, like we would be following each other even if we don’t talk. You know what I’m saying?

Christine: Right. We’d be checking up. Yeah. We’d be following. Yeah.

Em: It’s like an ex. It’s like, “Well, I think of you. You think of me, you know.”

Christine: It’s like, “I know what you’re up to. You know what I’m up to. Let’s just leave it at that.” Yeah.

Em: I will say it was very odd to see the Constantinos after you had just told me the whole story of what happened to them.

Christine: It’s weird. It’s weird. Especially ’cause that doesn’t really get, uh, super divulged on any of the episodes.

Em: I, I feel like I had–

Christine: Like the details.

Em: –um, my, my reality or my perception of reality was very warped because I was like hypervigilant trying to find signs of what would later be, you know.

Christine: Yeah. Hyper– Yeah, ’cause you’re reading into everything.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Right. I mean, and a lot of, a lot of fans have talked on Reddit like, “Oh, in this episode, if you see the way he talks to here,” you know, like I mean, they’ve been analyzed through and through, um, by a ton of people. Yeah.

Em: It, it was very, um, just chilling to just see them interacting and not only knowing that– I mean, maybe– I don’t know if they would consider themselves in love at the time or if, or if like– I don’t know.

Christine: Right.

Em: Abuse is tricky. Um, but it was weird to see them getting along, being a married couple, knowing that like–

Christine: Being just a couple.

Em: –she’s sitting next to her murderer. Like that was–

Christine: Oh god. Em, you’re right. Like it–

Em: It was so eerie.

Christine: Every time, it hits me every time.

Em: Like j– it’s like– it’s– it was a weird way of like going back in time and knowing a murder is gonna happen, and they’re just hanging out.

Christine: It must be so fucking– like watching the episode where he went back, you know, “The Final Chapter”–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –um, where he went back and ta– and like the way that they just all burst into tear– I mean, they were just sobbing in that one basement.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And I was like, I think that they’re like really traumatiz– I mean, obviously, like–

Em: I agree.

Christine: To have like a couple that like has a shared passion and a shared business and a sh– and, you know, seemingly obviously on the surface seem, you know, put together enough–

Em: And the guilt too–

Christine: –shocking.

Em: –of like– If I’m a stranger like looking for the hindsight, I can’t imagine knowing them and being like–

Christine: Being in it.

Em: –“What did I miss?” or “What could I–“

Christine: Totally.

Em: “How could I have helped?” Or even to be like, “We’re in this building right now when they would obviously be here with us, and they’re not.”

Christine: 100%. That must just be like the most chilling feeling. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. So that was very interesting to watch. If– It definitely put an extra layer of creepy to the episode–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –um, which under any other circumstances I’d be like, “Well, that’s great TV for a ghost show,” but like it was just so dark.

Christine: Right.

Em: You know what I mean?

Christine: Yes, yes.

Em: Super morbid. Um, so the EVPs that they played for the crew– ’Cause they all met up together to do the investigation, I guess, I guess together.

Christine: Right.

Em: Um, or they– I’m sorry. I, I did watch this a while ago ’cause we didn’t record last week. So I’m trying to play catch-up with myself here, but either the, um, the Constantinos investigated with them or were just involved in the walkthrough and played their EVPs for them.

Christine: Right. Okay, okay. But they were like in the episode?

Em: Mm-hmm. They were in the episode.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And the EVPs that they played for them said very clearly, “Hate Nick”–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –which Nick was the one that they walked behind in the apparition that everyone saw.

Christine: Oh, yeah, that followed him. Oh, ew.

Em: So that’s creepy.

Christine: Yes.

Em: They then got “Nick Groff,” so full name.

Christine: [gasps] Why they hate him so much?

Em: [chuckles] That becomes a running joke in this episode. Like–

Christine: It is pretty funny, unfortunately.

Em: I love that it’s not Zak for once. Um–

Christine: I mean, yeah, it’s kind of funny that it’s not Zak. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Uh, then they did– they got, “Zak, look out”–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and then, very creepy and feels a little too good to be true as someone who’s– it feels, it feels a little too scary to me–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –“Nick, Zak, coming, they’re scaring me.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: I don’t know what it means, but it’s a string of words that freaks me out.

Christine: Okay. You know– And we don’t talk about our ghost hunts that often, but like you know when we’re on a ghost investigation and we hear something like really scary that’s like, “you’re in danger, run,” or something–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –where like– and it like bypasses almost your prefrontal cortex, and like your body’s like, “Fuck!” before you even like r–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So like that’s one of those sentences where I’d be like, “I am the fucking out of here. I don’t know what it means. I don’t like really understand the syntax or grammar of this–“

Em: Yeah. “I know enough to know that I–“

Christine: “–threat, but I am threatened.”

Em: “–shouldn’t be here.”

Christine: Totally. My, my nervous system is fucking on alert now. Thank you. Yeah.

Em: Yeah, agreed.

Christine: Forget it.

Em: Um, ’cause “coming, they’re scaring me,” it’s like, wouldn’t you wanna be scaring them?

Christine: Yeah, right.

Em: Are you saying you’re coming for them?

Christine: What do you mean?

Em: Or they’re coming back to the house? Like what?

Christine: Like I wanna yell, “Speak on that,” but like not really.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Don’t speak on that. I don’t wanna know.

Em: Well, then they– during their walkthrough, they interview one of the bartenders down in the saloon, ’cause they know that downstairs is also still haunted–

Christine: Sure.

Em: –and the bartender literally tells them, so creepy, that quote, “The matchbooks roll down the bar.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Like, like a square– Like this is my phone, but like a square, like they flop like this down the bar.

[Em holds their phone up and turns it over from the screen facing down, to facing up, to down, flipping over and over again.]

Christine: They flip over?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Hello. No thanks.

Christine: Okay. I don’t like that very much at all.

Em: The bartender then says, uh, “It’s always the fourth barstool, but it always falls by itself,” which–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –can confirm from somebody else, uh, I mentioned in–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –in last week’s episode. Um–

Christine: And it’s always weird to me when it’s the same one.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: ’Cause I’m like, “Whose, whose stool was that?”, you know.

Em: Like, “Was that your favorite stool? Or are you– Is it just a memory replaying so you’re always on that same stool?”

Christine: Oh, like– Right, is it like a one time thing? Maybe someone was so embarrassed they fell off the chair, and it’s just like haunted the bar ever since, you know.

Em: [laughs] It’s literally haunting them.

Christine: It’s– I mean– I– It would haunt me probably. Yeah.

Em: 100%. Um, in the ballroom, I guess the– after the club closed and some of the spaces upstairs got reconverted, it became a ballroom.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, a psychic saw a man in a dark jacket who likes to kill.

Christine: [laughs] Okay. [laughs]

Em: Again, a little too good to be true–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –for me.

Christine: This seems like a little, uh– Wow, that’s– Thank you. That’s a nice introduction.

Em: If he’s telling the truth, horrifying.

Christine: Like, is there not anything else that you like–

Em: Like–

Christine: –maybe to introduce yourself before killing?

Em: Like, no– You didn’t see any other ghost, just the killer? That’s a little too good to be true for me.

Christine: Oh, I’m thinking that the ghost is just like, “Hi, I’m so-and-so, and I like to kill,” and the medium’s like, “Um–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–that’s quite an introduction.”

Em: That’s a great point.

Christine: Um, wow. Yeah. Either way, it’s rough.

Em: I guess it would be the person like that’s– has the most energy that would– that you would see, so.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, “I like to kill.” Oh my god. And then they disappear, and you’re like, “Um, what?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Ghost hunting can be really scary, you guys. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’m remembering this now.

Em: Like that’s your only thing, and then you’re like, “Any corner I turn, they could be there.”

Christine: I mean, it’s like The Crawler in that one place or like fucking Randall. It’s like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –“Where are you? I don’t like when you disappear.”

Em: Um, there’s– Oh, my dog is outside. How’d that happen? I don’t even know.

Christine: That’s fascinating.

Em: I– Something’s happened. Whatever. Not my job. Um– [laughs]

Christine: “Something’s happened.” [laughs]

Em: Allison’s on it, I’m sure.

Christine: I’m sure.

Em: Um, so The Crypt, can’t forget The Crypt, the temporary morgue.

Christine: Can’t forget it.

Em: People have walked in and seconds later had to run out, vomit, and then–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –refused to come back in or s-say what they saw.

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: That’s pretty telling. The vomit always gets me. I’m like–

Christine: The–

Em: –that one you can’t totally hide.

Christine: Yeah. I– Yeah. And that feels like an intense thing to invent or like to fabricate.

Em: 100%. I’m like, that one–

Christine: If people can see it.

Em: –that one’s too dramat– Like, if you, if you make that up, you’re fucking– You need a therapist.

Christine: You need to see a psychia– Yeah. You need like more help than I can give you. Yeah.

Em: Um, during the walkthrough, they also go back into the room where the infamous apparition happened. And during this comes, um– during this scene where they go back into the room, ’cause of course it’s the walkthrough, so Zak is a little cocky about how the night’s gonna go.

Christine: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Em: This scene, fun fact for everybody, is where we get the famous line in the now-intro–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –[mimicking Zac Bagans] “You wanted us, you got us.”

Christine: No!

Em: Yes.

Christine: That’s dope. I’m so happy about that.

Em: I remember hearing that, and I went, “I know that one.”

Christine: That’s delightful. I’m so happy we found the origin story.

Em: I would like to eventually find all of the clips that make up–

Christine: [gasps] Yeah.

Em: –the full episode.

Christine: Well, remember when I watched every single episode just looking for certain words to make you a pregnancy announcement video? Um–

Em: I, I still think it was probably one of the greatest gifts I’ve ever been given.

Christine: The sick part is that like I watched so much of it, but I didn’t internalize it ’cause I was listening to every single word.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So I was watching it like from this weird sick perspective of someone who didn’t like comprehend the sentences–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –but just like– So like a lot was happening, and I– I’m certain I watched a lot of stuff that I have no memory of ’cause I was just like parsing every word looking for like “pregnant,” you know.

Em: I will say in, in the world of gifts that require effort, I don’t think it’ll ever be matched. That was–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –in–

Christine: Well, it’s–

Em: Like you had to–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –you had to put yourself into psychosis, I think, for–

Christine: Well, it’s because I– it’s called pregnancy–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and I was in pregnancy, and I was not allowed to drink, right? So I was like, “I need to fixate on something to get by.“

Em: You were like, “Any, any crutch will do.”

Christine: My god. Yeah.

Em: I still– To this day, I, I think about it every now and then, and I go, “That was a really thoughtful gift.”

Christine: It has a lot of YouTube videos, which is so weird. ’Cause like I kind of tried to forget about it instantly after I did it, and, um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –it does still have quite a view-viewership, so.

Em: You have to be proud of yourself. That was, um–

Christine: “The Maltese Bagans.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Forgot what it was called.

Em: That was, um– I mean, I, I’m just gonna keep repeating myself, but thank you a thousand times for that one.

Christine: Oh, well, also I’m sorry a thousand times for that–

Em: No.

Christine: –but you’re also welcome.

Em: It really set the bar. Like now I feel like I– And I– It’s in a link. I could literally send it to people and be like, “This is what I expect,” so.

Christine: [laughs] That’s so sick of me. Here, it’s a gift that keeps on giving.

Em: [laughs] So, uh, what else happened? They hear a male voice. They smell cigar smoke, which is implied to be the bad guy who likes to kill.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, they– Oh, then– Oh, this was– this part is pretty good. They ask for the ghost to show themselves, and then something gets thrown at them. That’s pretty fun.

Christine: Agh! A brick? No, probably not.

Em: I think a rock. I think it was like a pebble.

Christine: Still not good.

Em: During a spirit box session, they– Oh, th– I, I’m so glad I put this note for myself. It– This was a spirit box session, but because this was– Even only five years after their documentary, it’s still 2009 before like ghosthunting’s a big thing. They called the spirit box “new tech.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs] It was like their first time ever using a spirit box.

Christine: Wow. They don’t know Bill Chappell yet, huh?

Em: I literally– Yes, that’s exactly right.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Um, and they got the words, “help,” “listen,” and “trouble.”

Christine: Wow.

Em: Creepy but vague.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And then at 3 a.m.– Oh, okay. I’m glad I put this in for myself too. Thanks, Past Em.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Uh, at 3 a.m. The Constantinos join them–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –to do an EVP session.

Christine: Okay. Okay.

Em: Um, so Zak feels something step forward. They do a little EVP session. And when they play it back, they got an EVP that says, “It was me.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Yuck.

Christine: Gasp.

Em: Then they ask, “How does it feel now that Ghost Adventures is back?” [laughs] And–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –the EVP says, “We’re not scared of them.”

Christine: Ooh.

Em: They then say, “Tell us how many of you are here.” They get an EVP that says, “Better not.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Yuck.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Then they said, “Do you follow– Did you follow Nick home yesterday?” They don’t really give context, but I’m assuming Nick felt creeped out after their first walkthrough. So–

Christine: Yeah, it fucking hates him.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] So, uh, “Did you follow Nick home yesterday?” The EVP says, “Yeah.” And then they say, “Was it to scare him?” And then the EVP jokingly says, “Never.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Never. I would never do such a thing.”

Em: “Oh, who? Little old me?”

Christine: “Oh, who? Little old me?”

Em: They then hear footsteps upstairs and immediately get an EVP that says, “Nick, go home.”

Christine: I– They really don’t like this fucking guy, man, this poor guy.

Em: Literally, the next question is–

Christine: He’s trying his best.

Em: –“Who is this message for?” And they get an EVP that says, “I hate Nick.” [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] This kid, he can’t get away.

Em: Nick is like, “I don’t even want to be here. Okay?”

Christine: I’m just like shocked that Nick’s the one who’s getting all the hate.

Em: I know. And like the irony, by the way, is that the only reason they’re back is because the ghosts keep saying their names. It’s like, “If you just kept my name out of your mouth, I wouldn’t be here.”

Christine: Totally. “Keep Nick’s name out of your fucking mouth, and then we’ll leave you alone.”

Em: “I’m only here ’cause you’re– you wanna fight. Let’s fight.” You know what I’m saying?

Christine: 100%.

Em: Um, so Aaron starts, uh, doing the whole like, “Oh, energy is draining out of me thing,” and he’s fading in and out, and he’s acting really weird. They get an EVP–

Christine: This is Zak or Nick saying– doing that?

Em: Aaron.

Christine: Oh, Aaron. Sorry.

Em: Uh–

Christine: He feels left out. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] He starts getting woozy, and then they get an EVP that says, “It’s only me.”

Christine: Ew!

Em: I hate that.

Christine: Ew! That– And it makes me think it’s like on, A– on Aaron, like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: – [in a sweet voice] “It’s only me,” like giving you a hug. Ugh, god.

Em: Yeah. Like, “Nothing to worry about. It’s just me–“

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: “–walking through your body.” Um, when they ask to– when they ask the ghost to yell their names if they want the crew to leave– Like it’s like, “If you don’t want us here, then say our names one more time.” Something yanks on Zak’s shirt–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and at the same moment, they get an EVP that says, “Groff,” which is Nick’s last name.

Christine: Holy shit. They’re like, “We only know one name.”

Em: And you know what’s so–

Christine: “And we’re never gonna stop saying it.”

Em: [laughs] You know what’s so weird about this? And then I’ll– The episode ends with them seeing a weird mist, and they hear a voice apparently, but then the episode ends. What I think is so weird about this, and I, I can’t tell if it’s a pat on the back to them or if it’s like– I don’t know what it’s telling of, but they got a whole TV show because they got one apparition walking by. Meanwhile, all of this is so much scarier to me–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and it was just like a random episode. Like, like it got– they got so much more out of this episode than– I don’t know what it means, but–

Christine: I think it means that like when they did the documentary, they were kind of like still amateurs and like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Then when they did the show, they were like, “We got to step this up and really like get content.” I don’t know.

Em: Yeah. I don’t know. I– Maybe the, the pressure was on even more or like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But it also begs the question like, “Oh, well, if they’re getting this kind of quality now after they have a TV show, like are they faking any of it?”

Christine: Right. Exactly.

Em: And who knows.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Or like maybe it’s– On the flip side, maybe it’s a testament to like the power of digital recording devices on investigations and–

Christine: And having like multiple– having the Constantinos there too–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and who knows? Yeah.

Em: Yeah. I don’t know. I– It’s, uh, something to think about, I guess. But–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –I thought it was interesting. Um, okay. So that was the first episode of Ghost Adventures or the, the second time they’ve been there. The–

Christine: Their return. The first return.

Em: The fi– the first chapter.

Christine: Okay.

Em: And now we’re at the final chapter. This is their–

Christine: [chuckles] The final chapter.

Em: –second episode of Ghost Adventures or their third time being there.

Christine: Okay, great.

Em: It’s in 2018, uh, a year into our podcast, and it really is, um, a wonderful journey through the evolution of Ghost Adventures from 2004–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –to 2018. You can definitely see that the, um, production budget has grown because in 2018, they’re now doing the intense unnecessary re-dramatizations in–

Christine: Oh my god, the like–

Em: –the beginning. [laughs]

Christine: –crazy like twitching girl with her neck s– cracked sideways, and I’m like, “What’s happening here?” Yeah.

Em: I feel like it’s always the same girl dressed in a different Lady in White outfit–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –and she’s just twitching in a different way.

Christine: I mean, 100%. I totally agree with you.

Em: I feel like she– they probably had her do just like a hundred different positions that one day, and then they just use that B-roll f– a, a different clip for every episode, and she got paid for one day of work.

Christine: And a different filter of like a different– yeah, lighting. Yeah, totally.

Em: Mm-hmm. Um, so their reason for coming back, you wonder, ’cause last time it was that they– the EVPs were calling for them.

Christine: Right.

Em: This time–

Christine: [chuckles] Calling for them.

Em: This time, a quote from Zak Bagans himself: [mimicking Zak Bagans] “I’ve been getting messages and visions and dreams of coming back here.” That’s the reason. That’s the whole–

Christine: [sighs] Wow.

Em: Then he says–

Christine: Wow. [sighs]

Em: –“This is the last time that we’re ever gonna come back here.” Okay.

Christine: Ah, famous last words.

Em: Now, this is where I have to– I’ve ne– we’ve never had to do this before in the podcast where I have to call back to your episode about the Constantinos about my episode about the documentary or–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It’s a, it’s a real mindfuck right now. But you actually watched some of this episode. Yes?

Christine: Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

Em: Okay. So in this part–

Christine: Mm-hmm?

Em: –um, I’m gonna be actually calling back to things you mentioned about the episode.

Christine: Oh, okay. Okay. I’m ready.

Em: Does that make sense?

Christine: Yes.

Em: Okay. So as you mentioned the last time–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –when you were watching this episode, um, it really seemed to bother you– And I’d actually forgotten that you said anything, ’cause it bothered me separately, and then I went, “Oh, yeah, Christine said the same thing.”

Christine: [gasps] I don’t remember.

Em: When Zak says, [chuckles] “This is a place that left its mark on me both physically, mentally–“

Christine: Ah!

Em: “–spiritually, and emotionally.”

Christine: Fucking dumb as shit, dude.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Come on.

Em: I know that’s so silly, but you said it, and I, and I– on my own, I went, “That didn’t sound right to me.”

Christine: It still triggers me. Okay? I’m, I’m like, “Come on. Both?”

Em: You– [laughs]

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Both and–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and yet both again.

Christine: Yeah. Both and both and both. Yeah.

Em: So, um, you also mentioned that in this episode as they’re walking through the location, which how many times can you walk through the same fucking location? I say as we’ve–

Christine: Another walkthrough.

Em: –as I’ve covered the Winchester Mystery House like six fucking times. But–

Christine: As we’ve walked through that a million times. Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] But, uh, yeah, they found a way to do it again. And this time it was– they were able to film something different which, you remember, was the display of items from their first investigation is now just sitting out for people to see when they visit this place.

Christine: Yes. Okay. Yes. Which is so funny. It’s like a fucking museum exhibit.

Em: Uh, yeah, they had like, um, like Aaron’s visor, like you said. They had like a–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –a camera–

Christine: The visor that says like–

Em: –that they got the apparition on.

Christine: –that says like the town’s name or whatever.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’m like, “What are you guys doing?”

Em: Well, and it’s– I’m glad that I saw the original documentary now because when you talked about it, you were saying like, “Oh, and one of the original cameras from when they went ghost hunting.”

Christine: Oh?

Em: I can now update you and say that was the camera they got the apparition on.

Christine: Ah, that’s the apparition one. Okay. Okay.

Em: Yes. Um–

Christine: Cool.

Em: –so basically I guess the information had come out in between 2009-2018 when they last filmed there. But in this episode, they bring in new history that says in the 1870s, there was an explosion that killed 12 people, and body parts were in the street. It was very morbid and gross.

Christine: Whoa.

Em: They got really– Yeah. I mentioned that in the previous episode, and I had seen that information from different areas. I didn’t know that it got covered in Ghost Adventures right away when I said that.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But I guess now they’re up to date, and they’re not talking about that in this– so maybe that’s their new angle in this episode of like–

Christine: Oh, they’re– Yeah.

Em: –were these– did these people die in an explosion?

Christine: Yes. Okay.

Em: Uh, now Room 12 is called the Demonic Spirits Room. Things have really changed since–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –they got a little–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: This house is very similar to Zak where they– the ego boosted itself. You know what I mean?

Christine: It really– The attitude needed no– needs a lot of adjusting, but it’s too late. It’s far too late for that.

Em: Yeah. It used to just be a random place that nobody ghost hunted at, and now, all of a sudden, we’ve got the Demonic Spirits Room, you know.

Christine: Yeah. Now it’s on display behind glass. Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: [laughs] Yeah. So the reason they call it the Demonic Spirits Room is because at least 26 people at the time had been scratched here, including a young girl.

Christine: Jeez.

Em: As we just mentioned, by this time that they’re filming “The Final Chapter–“

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –um, the Constantinos have passed.

Christine: Yes.

Em: So that becomes a big story arc here where they are– while investigating– I understand like it was technically like for TV that they were probably expected to talk about the Constantinos a lot–

Christine: Right.

Em: –but it, it is also like really– It’s not their fault, but it was really awkward to see them like clearly–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –mid-grieving, or if they had already grieved, they’re now like opening up old wounds for TV.

Christine: Oh, completely agreed. Completely agreed.

Em: It was very weird because I was like, you, you clearly actually did care about these people, and like–

Christine: Right.

Em: –you can’t feel good talking about this–

Christine: Yes, they were like–

Em: –but maybe they were obligated to?

Christine: –actively grieving on air, and it was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.”

Em: Like they were holding each other and crying, and it was like–

Christine: Yes.

Em: Like usually if Zak is crying in a haunted house, like I wanna laugh about that, and this really–

Christine: Right.

Em: –had– this plucked me out of–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –the situation.

Christine: I completely agree. And I also feel like it was a little bit of, um– it– like I feel like they tried to spin it like, “Oh my gosh, the ghost. It must be the ghost.” And I’m like, “No, you’re all just traumatized, babe.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like you’re fucking in a place where people you lo– really liked and, and cared for–

Em: And met here. Th–

Christine: And met here.

Em: Like I’m pretty sure they met there.

Christine: Like of course, you’re fucking crying. Yeah. So it’s kind of odd. It’s like, it’s like– I feel like I’m like not supposed to be seeing it, you know? It’s like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –just like a little personal.

Em: It felt a little intimate. Um–

Christine: Mm-hmm, intimate.

Em: Yeah. I was shocked that they were so open about just crying–

Christine: Me too.

Em: –instead of like the classic Zak thing would be to be angry, you know. Um–

Christine: Me, too. Yes. Or blame something else. Yeah, yeah.

Em: Yeah. It was just a weird episode, but I don’t think they– I don’t think it’s their fault. It was just a–

Christine: No, I think there was probably no way to make it not weird, you know.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: ’Cause like obviously this is a deeply traumatic thing. Like there’s no way around it. Yeah.

Em: 100%. So since Ghost Adventures is now so famous at this location – you mentioned this – that during their, uh, walkthrough–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I’m just gonna read exactly what my notes say because I wanna make sure I get this right. Since Ghost Adventures is so famous at this location and tours constantly mention the show, maybe Zak is getting the dreams he mentioned of why he’s coming back: “I have these visions and dreams and–“

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: Maybe these dreams are because the spirits are annoyed with him. That’s one theory. That like maybe–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –the spirits were like, “Can you shut the fuck up? Everyone that comes through here is talking about you, and we already hate you.”

Christine: Oh, and they’re like, “God, we have to hear about you forever and ever.” Well, why don’t they hate, hate Nick anymore?

Em: That’s a great point. I don’t know. Maybe they just hate everyone now.

Christine: I thought Nick was the bad g– Maybe.

Em: After you hear– you just hear it over and over. It’s like, “Oh my god, with these people.”

Christine: I feel like Nick didn’t get much of a display in the display case, you know?

Em: Isn’t that funny that he was the most hated? Maybe they couldn’t. Maybe if whatever they put in there would just get like messed with.

Christine: Ohh. Wait, also doesn’t Nick not have a good relationship with Zak anymore? Didn’t he write a book about it?

Em: Yes, but it’s–

Christine: So maybe– Oh, that was a long time ago though.

Em: No, no, no. You’re right. Nick is no longer on the episode. He’s not here anymore.

Christine: [gasps] Oh, so maybe they– Oh my god, imagine this. Behind the scenes in the– all the footage they didn’t use, it’s just like, “Nick Groff, Nick Groff”–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and Zak’s like, “Fucking talk about me!”

Em: What if Zak called them in advance and said, “Get rid of anything that Nick was a part of.” Like–

Christine: “Yeah, we don’t wanna talk about anything Nick. That’s off–”

Em: “Like, in the display cabinet, whatever he had in there, get rid of it.”

Christine: “–off the table.”

Em: That, that sounds so on brand. Um–

Christine: Feels like they’re probably still blabbing on about him and Zak’s like, “No.”

Em: Well, so during just the walkthrough, Aaron starts feeling really hostile. Now we’ve got like Billy and Jay and like–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –remember Dakota, may his relationship with Zak rest in peace as well.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Um, I think it was Dakota’s first investigation or–

Christine: Oh my–

Em: –it was their first investigation like there at least.

Christine: –gosh.

Em: And Zak says they won’t go into the upper floors until they investigate purely because– like during the walkthrough, they’re not even gonna go upstairs because Aaron is already feeling so tense and that something’s already affecting him–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –that he’s like, “Let’s just hang out down here so we get the first real reactions upstairs when we’re investigating.”

Christine: Okay. Okay.

Em: And his quote about this is, “In spite,” which I think he meant despite. “In spite of my decision to not go near the upper floors, we moved to The Crypt, which opens up to the second floor.” So he was like, “I know I just said that we’re not going up there–“

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “–but I’m gonna like fuck around with the area anyway.”

Christine: “Despite my own rules about it, I’m gonna break my rules.”

Em: In spite, actually. In spite.

Christine: “In spite of my rules, I’m gonna–“ Yeah. What the fuck?

Em: They reach up with, um, a boom mic, which I think you would probably remember this scene, but they decide–

Christine: Oh, I do actually.

Em: They– So they refuse to go upstairs, but they were still going to like–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –put equipment upstairs. So the way–

Christine: We've done that. We’re like scared of the basement? Let’s just toss a camera down–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and someone else will get it later – Eva. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] So, uh, basically, they took like a really tall pole that had a microphone at the end of it–

Christine: Right.

Em: –and they stuck it– They reached their hands all the way up there, and they stuck their microphone over to the second floor.

Christine: Right.

Em: So they’re on the first floor, but they’re holding the microphone that’s hitting the second floor, and they start asking questions and hope that something will get caught on the microphone.

Christine: Okay, clever, I guess.

Em: And, uh, they immediately hear a thud on the microphone, which is like–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –it’s a pretty big thud, but I’m kind of wondering if they just bonked the microphone on something.

Christine: I remember that thud. It was pretty damn loud. I was–

Em: It was loud.

Christine: I was like, “Oh?”

Em: Um, Zak Bagans asks if they’ve been sending him messages, and then a pebble gets thrown onto them from the second floor.

Christine: That– Yeah, that was weird. It did kind of just fall from up there.

Em: Horrific.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Zak then asks if they want to show themselves, and another rock gets thrown.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: So I love that this guy just has like a bucket of rocks. He’s like, “I’m ready to just do this all night long.”

Christine: [laughs] He’s just choosing one a– little one at a time though.

Em: They later learn that the boom mic actually caught EVPs of voices so close to the microphone that you can’t make out the words. Like, it’s popping.

Christine: Bye.

Em: The audio is popping.

Christine: Bye, bye, bye.

Em: During this, Aaron says that he keeps getting flashes of the Constantinos, which like is the beginning–

Christine: Eugh.

Em: –of the whole like grieving scene.

Christine: Yep. Yep.

Em: And then he feels something touch his head really hard, and you see him react like something hit him.

Christine: [sucks in a breath sharply]

Em: Um, they believe that the Constantinos have entered the chat–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –uh, from the, the beyond, and, uh, basically it– They feel like that is confirmed for them when they play back the EVP later and the voice that they had been hearing was Debby’s.

Christine: [gasps] Oh, that was freaky. I– That was freaky because–

Em: It does sound like Debby’s voice.

Christine: –they really were like thrown by that. Yeah, that was scary.

Em: And I could see why that would trigger grieving again.

Christine: Totally.

Em: Like, “Oh my god, I just heard–“

Christine: Totally.

Em: “–my friend’s fucking voice who’s dead.”

Christine: Oh my god. I mean, oof.

Em: Um, and then that turned into like a– I mean, that–

Christine: Wow.

Em: Again, it was like one of those things where like I was just genuinely creeped out because it was like ghost evidence–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –but also I was like, “Eugh, but I don’t– I feel weird being spooked when like I feel like I should–“

Christine: Totally.

Em: “–I’m watching a tender moment,” you know?

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, it is weird. It's like, how do you even approach this? Yeah.

Em: Um, here’s where we get into– I think this was the last scene you watched and then you turned it off, so that way I could tell you more about it.

Christine: Yes. Yeah.

Em: Do you know what scene I’m about to talk about?

Christine: Um, remind me. I will when you say it.

Em: It was before the investigation, and they need to kill some time. So they go–

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god. This is the best part. Oh my god. They go to fucking make candy?

Em: Chocolate turtles at a candy store.

Christine: Chocolate turtles. And he’s like just being such a fucking weird middle school boy.

Em: It wa– And then they had– there was a little boy there who was like calling him out being like, “Did you really make this or did you like watch someone else do it?” Like– [laughs]

Christine: He literally was like, “Did you make this or did you just put it in the oven?” or something.

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I was like, “Whoa. Jesus.”

Em: My favorite part, which you left out, uh, is that–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –Zak mentions that, um, yes, they're at a candy store, and yes, he's making turtles, but he is on a sugar-free diet.

Christine: [laughs] Oh, yeah.

Em: And he says– This is a quote. He says he’s on a sugar-free diet, [mimicking Zak Bagans] “which has a really bad side effect.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “Let’s just say the effect– let’s just say the effect of sugar-free candy is gastrointestinal, and leave it at that.”

Christine: Okay.

Em: Like–

Christine: So you like gave us everything. Thank you. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] But also like why was that mentioned at all? I didn’t have to know what–

Christine: Why?

Em: –kind of– Like you’re alr– It already makes no sense that you’re at a candy store making turtles–

Christine: It like–

Em: –like now you’re just going deeper. You’re–

Christine: And now you’re just ta– changing the subject to something completely different. And also like– Yeah, okay. So maybe if in ten minutes, you’re like, “Ooh, I gotta run to the bathroom,” then it’s like, “Okay, tieback. I see why they mention it.” But like it’s just like said, and then there’s no mention.

Em: Like, like you could–

Christine: It’s so weird.

Em: –have just said, “We’re making turtles,” and then like posed with the turtles and then gone back to–

Christine: And been like silly–

Em: –the building.

Christine: –and it’s like, oh no, no, no.

Em: Nobody asked–

Christine: It had to go–

Em: It was not a story line. It was just a weird–

Christine: 100%. Yeah.

Em: So anyway, as you mentioned it, o– Zak offers one to a kid.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Uh, the kid says, “Did you make it or just put the chocolate on?” Anyway, so I wanted to make sure that I gave that the love that you, you mentioned. Um–

Christine: Thank you. I’m glad you remember, I’m glad you remember or– glad you mentioned the sugar-free thing ’cause I clearly blocked that out.

Em: Once I saw the turtles, I went, “Well, I gotta write this down.” So–

Christine: Yeah, the turtles is, is out of control. I had to stop watching ’cause I was like, “This is actually like– I can’t do this alone. Em needs to watch it first–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–before I discuss it any further.”

Em: So back to the investigation, which thank you for letting me still give you an element of surprise here.

Christine: Oh, please.

Em: Now they’re at the investigation. Billy cares about being here a lot because apparently this location, separately from the Ghost Adventures crew, um, this place made him a believer–

Christine: Oh, interesting.

Em: –like in ghosts.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Um, so I guess it was the first place he got touched, and there were some like weird anomalies on camera, but also–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –this is where I put the note that Billy and Jay are now in the gro– Ghost Adventures crew, which means Nick and Zak have had their big falling out, and Nick is no longer–

Christine: Right.

Em: –there. So–

Christine: Welcome.

Em: –no more Nick-hating evidence. Um, but–

Christine: [chuckles] Bummer.

Em: –I did put timecodes for people if you would like to go back and watch the episode, uh, [dramatically] “The Final Chapter.”

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: At 18:50, there is a EVP of a voice clearly saying, “All the time,” and it sounds like a real-ass person in the room. Like it–

Christine: Ew.

Em: But they were– You can hear them talking, and it was never there, and then they play this– the sound back–

Christine: Ew!

Em: –and someone’s saying, “All the time.” Um, at 19:20, the same voice – it sounds like a real person in the room – they get an EVP saying, “How do you know it’s my name?”

Christine: Eww!

Em: And it had like a really thick accent, like a miner’s accent. It was very weird. It was not anyone in the room.

Christine: Huh.

Em: Um, Zak then later feels something affecting him to a point where he just can’t talk, of course. And so–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –at, at the same time that they are using the SLS, and it catches a full body, which–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –this is always– it’s always creepy to me when the– The SLS, you cannot control that at all.

Christine: Yeah, that part’s weird.

Em: The, the spirit box you cannot control at all.

Christine: That’s the stick figure one for people who aren’t familiar.

Em: Yes. So he’s using the stick figure camera. They catch something at the exact same time they got a spirit box female voice talking to them.

Christine: No.

Em: And while upstairs, Zak says, “Do you want us to go upstairs?” And the spirit box says, “Keep going.”

Christine: No.

Em: Za-Zak asks, “Who’s with us?” And the spirit box says, “I am.” Eugh.

Christine: T– Okay, don’t be ridiculous. Who is this?

Em: Um, Zak is in one room, and he thinks he sees someone in the camera and then gets a gross snarl on–

Christine: Eww.

Em: –in EVP. They then– This one freaked me out. The door closes by itself, and you can hear it slam behind them, and it’s just the two of them up there.

Christine: Blegh!

Em: Yuck.

Christine: I don’t like that.

Em: Um, earlier– This is– Okay. This was also like another grieving moment. Like it– There were two of those–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –in this episode, oof. Um, I guess this is the main one, but. Basically, earlier Billy got– did an EVP session, and he got really emotional talking about his time here with the Constantinos. This one was the part that was really awkward to watch–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –because he’s just like breaking down. And he’s by himself ’cause he’s doing an EVP session in a, in a– He’s just standing there, and they’re just filming him just like crying, talking about his friendship with them, and I was like, “[sucks in breath] Ooh, this is rough.”

Christine: Jesus. Yeah.

Em: Um, during this, he actually caught Debby’s voice clearly saying– I feel like this is, this is– If you’re gonna watch anything, this part is–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –for sure worth it. It’s at 32:50. Um, he got really emotional talking about the Constantinos as– and as he’s breaking down, you can hear on the playback Debby’s voice specifically saying, “Billy’s upset, okay?”–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –as if she’s like telling the other spirits to back off.

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: You could straight up hear it, and it is for sure her voice.

Christine: “Billy’s upset, okay?” [gasps]

Em: “Billy’s upset, okay?”

Christine: [gasps] That is chilling.

Em: [groans]

Christine: That is chilling.

Em: Like he’s, he’s like losing it and like– which like–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –away from all of this, it’s nice to know that there are some ghosts that are on your side, like that are–

Christine: Oh, yeah, true. That are like, “Hey, give them some space.”

Em: That if you’re having a bad day, there might be a spirit in the room like telling the other ones to back up.

Christine: Rallying for you, yeah.

Em: So, um, this part is also super fucking creepy. Like you should go back–

Christine: Mm.

Em: I, I’ll send you the link, to you, at least. Um–

Christine: Okay.

Em: But you should go back and watch this clip on your own when you can. But at 33:50, all four of them are in nerve center, and like they’re watching the empty rooms, the X cameras, and there’s– It’s just them. But upstairs, it is the longest, loudest footsteps for like–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –a full minute. And like it’s so funny to watch these like four men immediately turn into like freaked out boys going like, “[gasping] What’s going on?” Like they’re– But they’re trying to stay quiet, but their faces–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It was– And it is scary as shit. The sound upstairs is– It’s–

Christine: Okay. I maintain to this day that hearing footsteps never sounds as scary as it actually is. Because when you are in a house and you know there’s no one there– and like growing up, I’m sure you had footsteps in your– Did you have footsteps growing up, like at your house?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: At my dad’s, it was always the stairs right outside my bedroom, and it got– I got so used to it that like people would stay over and be like, “Who’s coming upstairs?” and I’m like, “Oh, that happens every night.” But like you hear footstep– and it’s like there is a person there. Like you hear the person. It’s not like, “Oh, I heard a little shuffle. Maybe it’s a footstep.” Like you can literally hear someone walking, and it’s like–

Em: It, it’s horrifying.

Christine: –indescribable.

Em: Like it’s not– You don’t have to wonder–

Christine: There’s like no other way to explain it.

Em: You don’t have to think like, “Oh, it’s the floorboards creaking.”

Christine: “What could that be?”

Em: It’s a grown man–

Christine: Yeah, there’s no doubt.

Em: –climbing the stairs.

Christine: No doubt.

Em: Um, that’s what’s happening in this sce– in this episode in this scene.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And they’re all freaking out and trying to stay quiet for the audio, but they’re freaking out.

Christine: Right.

Em: Um, which I like to think if the Constantines are gonna show up at all, like you would, you would hope as they’re friends and you have a ghost TV show and all you– the five of you have ever wanted to do when all of you were together–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –is get evidence. This is the moment for ghosts to fucking appear because like they–

Christine: I would say.

Em: –they know what your intention is. They are your friends. They want you to succeed. They also wanted evidence. So from beyond the grave, they can now show you that evidence. You– Like this is the moment for them to step the fuck up. Like–

Christine: Yes. Yes, it’s a big– The spotlight’s on.

Em: Like Debby, this is your moment. You know what I’m saying?

Christine: Step forward.

Em: Um, so we kind of get a whiff of that coming up. So a-after they hear like these horrifying footsteps–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –of course, Zak sends Aaron up there alone. Um–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –and they– He uses the Ovilus, which says the words, “Shoot. Hi,” and–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –then it says, “Door.” Now, the room that he’s in is the room where someone died by a self-inflicted gunshot.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: So we got “Shoot.”

Christine: Oh, dear. Oh, dear. Oh, dear.

Em: And then, “Hi,” and then–

Christine: Ooh.

Em: –“Door,” as if maybe he’s the one who closed the door earlier.

Christine: Oh. Oh! “Hi. I’m–“ Oh no. Oh no.

Em: Um, Billy then later– h– One of the cameras starts freaking out in a way that I have not seen on the show before. And when they go to check it out, something throws a quarter at them.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Coincidentally, which at the time I was like kind of like, “Alright, we’re really playing into the story line here,” the date on the quarter was 2015, which was the year that the Constantinos died.

Christine: [gasps] Oh my. Ooh.

Em: They really read into that, and they’re like, “Holy shit. Maybe it’s a sign from them.” So they turn the Ovilus on, and they get the word, “Communicate.” Zak then says, “Oh, like–“

Christine: Oh no.

Em: “–how they threw that quarter to communicate with us.”

Christine: Right.

Em: And then he talks about the quarter again. He’s like, “Oh, that was a shiny new quarter,” and the Ovilus says, “Fresh.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And Zak says, “Who was this a message to?”

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: The Ovilus said, “You.”

Christine: “Nick Groff.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “You.” Ah!

Em: Zak then says, “Who was this a message from?”

Christine: [sighs]

Em: And then the Ovilus said, “Us.”

Christine: Okay.

Em: And when he says, “What did you do with this quarter?” The Ovilus says these three words all at one time, back to back–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –“Drop. Coins. Portal.”

Christine: [gasps] There’s a portal.

Em: Like–

[Em holds their forearm up to the camera, trying to show the goosebumps on their arm.]

Em: I don’t know if you can see it. Anyway, uh, goosecam.

Christine: It’s, it’s–

Em: So–

Christine: –slightly delayed. So I didn’t– I thought maybe you had a bug on you–

Em: Oh, no.

Christine: –but you’re doing, you’re doing a goosecam. Yeah.

Em: A goosecam moment.

Christine: I mean, same. Big time.

Em: Um, but so that was just super eerie–

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: –that like it’s confirming–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –that like we–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –“We’re on the other side, and we’re trying to communicate with you by throwing coins at you. Yes, they’re fresh and shiny.” Um–

Christine: Holy shit though, dude.

Em: So anyway, I hope that nobody is an enemy towards spoilers because this was just one big spoiler episode. But that is all– Th– It was an incredibly long episode. Thank you for holding out. That was the Washoe Club from–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –the ZBCU. And–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –please, please don’t ever make me talk about ZB ever again in my life. [laughs]

Christine: ZBCU. [applause]

Em: Uh, thank you.

Christine: Listen, it was worth it for my own enjoyment, so.

Em: Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Christine: I don’t know if that– if anyone cares, but I care a lot about that, so.

Em: I care a lot. I, I mean, I was happy to do it, but I’m aware that some people are probably like, “Can you not just do some– like retell someone else’s work?”

Christine: Well, you d– Well, come on. Come on, guys. That’s what storytelling is.

Em: Anyway, if you’re a fan of, um, what– who Zak Bagans is and what he’s done to us over the years, please–

Christine: “What he’s done to us.” [chuckles]

Em: –just psychologically as, as a group, what he’s done to all of us.

Christine: Spiritually and mentally. Yeah.

Em: I hope that you really like that episode, so.

Christine: I enjoyed it deeply, immensely.

Em: Thank you.

Christine: Um, very good job, Em. Uh, so do you plan to go elsewhere next week then?

Em: Go next– go anywhere next week?

Christine: Sorry. Go elsewhere with your notes like find– you’re–

Em: Oh, oh, oh.

Christine: So you are officially finding a new topic? Like as non–

Em: I’m officially finding a new topic. Unless–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –I swear to god, in your part two–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –you’re like, “And then Zack Bagans said about–“

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t think the Dorothy Arnold part two–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –has any– But you never know. This man just finds a way, okay?

Em: He finds a way. And I’m sure he’ll appear in my other stories one day, but let’s take a break.

Christine: He'll make himself known. Don’t you worry.

Em: Yeah.

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Christine’s Story – Dorothy Arnold - Part 2

Christine: All right, we’re back. Um, we discussed a lot of important topics, and now I have a beautiful part two to give you. This is part two of the disappearance of Dorothy Arnold, um, which I very stupidly missed last time. Um, and I remember now why it got cut short. It’s because the episode was really long and–

Em: Oh, yeah.

Christine: –I had a meeting I forgot about like in 20 minutes– [chuckles]

Em: Totally forgot about it.

Christine: –and I just fucking bolted. Um, so I apologize. Um, here we go. So I have a little recap for everybody bec– including, especially, myself. Okay.

Em: [unintelligible], yeah.

Christine: Here is the recap of the disappearance of Dorothy Arnold, part one. 1910, Dorothy Arnold was New York royalty. She was born into massive wealth with a family tree tracing back to the Mayflower, lived in a literal mansion on the Upper East Side. Um, her parents, Francis and Mary, expected her to follow like the Gilded Age path– playbook at the time, which was just to like marry a wealthy guy and then be a socialite. Um–

Em: Cool.

Christine: –but Dorothy had other plans. She went to Bryn Mawr. She really wanted to become a published author. She had submitted a few pieces to literary journals and received rejections. And instead of supporting her, comforting her, her entire family mocked her. And when she asked to get a studio space in Greenwich Village for some privacy to write, her dad said, “Anyone who can write can write anywhere, so figure it out. And also, you can’t leave this house until you find a man that I approve of.”

Em: Good. Great.

Christine: Then they’re doing this debutante ball for her sister. They’re prep-prepping for the debutante ball. It’s a– It’s all, all a frenzy. And Dorothy heads out for a shopping trip in Manhattan and seemingly was in high spirits. Um, she rejected her mom’s offer to join her on the trip and went solo. She, midday, bought a box of chocolates–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and a humor book called An Engaged Girl’s Sketches at Brentano’s bookstore. Um, she’s reported as ha– being smiley, having high spirits. 2 p.m., she runs into her friend, Gladys King, on Fifth Avenue. Um–

Em: Yes, I remember Gladys.

Christine: Remember Gladys had a muff?

Em: Yes.

Christine: A furry muff. [laughs]

Em: Who could forget Gladys’s muff?

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Not me.

Christine: Who could forget Gladys’s furry muff?

Em: Timeless, timeless muff.

Christine: And she pulls the RSVP [laughs] out of the fucking muff–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and is like, “This is for your sister’s party.” And, um, she’s like, “Thanks,” and like took it. Uh, and then Gladys says, “Okay, I’m off to meet my mom at the Waldorf Astoria for lunch.” And they wave goodbye, and Dorothy was never seen again.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Now, her family notices she’s not there, and instead of reporting her missing, they wait six weeks to tell police that their daughter is missing. And that’s where we left off. So when parents–

Em: Well done.

Christine: –when the parent– Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Em: Well done. Well, well done with the recap.

Christine: Oh, thank you. So when Dorothy failed to return for dinner, um, her parents were a little worried because she was usually very timely. But they decided not to call the police and instead began privately calling friends and initiating their own discrete searches. And as part of this, they hired their own lawyer to do a separate private investigation. Realizing the severity of the situation, um, the lawyer came straight away. He was a close family friend named John S. Keith, and he immediately searched Dorothy’s bedroom.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Um, almost everything was precisely where it belonged, indicating she hadn’t packed a bag. Um, she had left her passport and suitcases behind as well. However, Keith discovered that some papers had been recently burned in the fireplace. It was heavily speculated that, um, these were the rejection letters from the publishing– from the, from the journals that she had submitted to that she was burning in the fireplace–

Em: Hm.

Christine: –out of embarrassment. So Keith spent several days looking everywhere. He even went to like hospitals, morgues, sanatoriums, like to see if he could find her admitted somewhere, um, but had no success. So he realized he couldn’t get much farther without hiring help, and that’s when he convinced the Arnold parents to hire the Pinkerton National Detective Agency.

Em: [groans] I love that.

Christine: I know. And the Pinkertons, I feel like they’re just always out and about in these stories, and I– they always feel like a fictional entity, but they’re not.

Em: I feel like it’s, it’s almost like, um, a “should have been” Sherlock Holmes series because the Pinkertons–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –just has the sound of like you wanna follow their escapades.

Christine: Yeah, like a private eye. The Pinkerton Detective Agency? I mean, it make– it writes itself.

Em: I love that the original guy who was looking around and like looked through sanatoriums and stuff– It reminds me of like how men can’t grocery shop, but like–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –like this man could go to sanatoriums and look up admissions and– and then asked for help when he couldn’t get any further. And the he went–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –“I need even more men on my side,” and the Pinkerton said, “Aye, aye, Captain. I’m here.”

Christine: You called the right guy.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: You called the right Pinkerton, you know?

Em: [chuckles] How many Pinkerton brothers are there?

Christine: Don’t ask me that.

Em: Okay.

Christine: I have no idea.

Em: Didn’t know if this was like a–

Christine: For all I know, one. For all I know, six.

Em: I was gonna say, I, I feel like– in my mind, they’re triplets.

Christine: I like to think they’re triplets also. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. Something eerie is going on.

Christine: Which is very weird, but like in my mind, there’s just three of them, and they’re all the same age. [laughs]

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: What is that? [laughs]

Em: They look identical, for sure.

Christine: Um, and they’re all in a trench coat, and they’re walking through–

Em: On, on each other’s shoulders. Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: –town. Yeah, on each other’s shoulders.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Okay. So the Pinkertons pretty quickly stumble upon a big secret, and that is that Dorothy had a secret post office box.

Em: [gasps] Wow, they’re good at their job. Immediately they figure this out?

Christine: They’re the Pinkertons.

Em: Of course. [chuckles]

Christine: Of course.

Em: What was I thinking?

Christine: What were you thinking? Okay. Dorothy had a hidden post office box at the 34th Street post office. She kept it totally under wraps from her family. They had no clue. And this was where she would send her submissions and stash away rejection letters. Um, because she was just taunted by her family, so she didn’t wanna be taunted anymore, so she had a private post office box.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um, the Arnold family’s re– Like honestly, at first, they thought, “Maybe she has like a lover that we wouldn’t approve of, and that’s why she has a secret mailbox,” but it was like just to write, which is like so sad, you know? I mean, it’s not like she was trying to have an affair or– you know, not that there’s anything wrong with seeing someone at that age anyway, but like–

Em: No, I totally get it.

Christine: –the fact that it was just to write, and she felt so like mocked. I don’t know. Just makes me sad.

Em: Or she was so– Yeah, so ashamed, she had to hide away her only interest.

Christine: Yes. Yeah, it’s like dark. Um, so the Arnold family’s reaction to Dorothy’s disappearance like fucked the investigation, right? I mean, they didn’t tell police for six weeks, so like yeah, they’re gonna be behind. Um, back in 1910, the immediate thought was, “Oh, a young woman disappears without an escort. She must be running away, having a mental breakdown, or like o-otherwise up to no good and smearing the family name,” you know.

Em: Some sort of harlot.

Christine: Some sort of harlot, like nothing good. And so her parents were like, “Well, we don’t want that out there.” So they did not tell anybody. Um, but when the Pinkertons could not find her, uh, six weeks later, they finally convinced the parents to call the police. And Francis, the dad, was documented as being profoundly unhappy to do so–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –really, really upset about this. Um, he was resistant to the publicity, and he didn’t want any part in it. But, of course, the moment it got out, he had to hold a press conference and give the public the update of what was going on. So on January 25, 1911, reporters gathered at Francis Arnold’s business office– I like how he’s like, “They can come to me.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: “I’m not gonna be meeting the press anywhere.” They came to his office where he finally informed the public of his daughter’s disappearance, and he also offered a $1,000 reward for information leading to his daughter’s safe return – and the $1,000 reward in today’s money is about $35,000.

Em: Ooh! Okay.

Christine: And that’s just for information leading to her return. It’s not like to bring her back.

Em: That’s not even for her.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Wow.

Christine: So during the conference, reporters directly asked Francis if he thought his daughter had run away with a man, knowing that he was strictly opposed to this storyline or s– like of course, they’re like, “That’s– We’re gonna go straight for the thing, you know–“

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: “–that, that’s gonna trigger him or piss him off.” And here’s what he said: “I would have been glad to see her associate more with young men than she did, especially some young men of brains and position: one whose profession or business would keep him occupied. I don’t approve of young men who have nothing to do.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: And everyone was like, “What?” [chuckles]

Em: Yeah, that’s how I felt just now.

Christine: Everyone was like, “What is that supposed to mean?” And of course, they read into it, and rightfully so, ’cause it turns out she was indeed having an affair with somebody her dad didn’t really like.

Em: Love.

Christine: She was having an affair with a guy named George Griscom Jr. And when the press– The press didn’t even know about this until her dad acted so fucking weird when they asked, and they were like, “Ah, there’s a story here.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So they go digging.

Em: All of a sudden, the Pinkertons are, uh– they’re itching.

Christine: Good p– [laughs]

Em: They’re like, [chuckles] “Wow, we’ve really cracked this thing wide open just by accident.”

Christine: They’re like, “Now we’re TMZ, I think?”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: “We’re like– Yeah, the secret affairs.” So the affair’s revealed. The press uncovers that Dorothy has been having this affair with this guy named George S. Griscom Jr., a man she had met while attending Bryn Mawr, and she had become deeply romantically involved with this guy. Now, as you’ll recall, she is a pretty young woman at this point, um– pretty young woman, but I mean, she’s a pretty young woman, like she’s relatively young.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, at this point, [soft mumbling under her breath] she is 25, and her lover, the man that she was having an affair with, was in his early 40s. And so right off the bat, her dad was like, “Um, I don’t think so.” He–

Em: Yeah, he’s– “This doesn’t fly.”

Christine: Yeah. And he did, he did come from like a profoundly wealthy Pennsylvania family. So it’s not like really the money part, but it’s the fact that he was like 40, 42, and he was unemployed, had no business, and was entirely dependent on his parents and still lived at a hotel that his parents paid for, and her dad was like, “This guy’s a loser.”

Em: He– And also like– I mean, I know you just said it doesn’t have anything to, to do with the money, but that’s certainly a question in the air of like, “Are you doing this– Like why are you hanging out with a really rich girl and you happen to maybe be hurting for money?” Like it, it could be– Right? Am I crazy for thinking that that guy–

Christine: Well, he’s– No, he’s super rich.

Em: Oh. What? The guy who’s living in a hotel and–

Christine: Yes, he’s extremely wealthy.

Em: Oh, wow. Okay, I got that wrong. Sorry.

Christine: Sorry. He comes from a super wealthy family. Um, and it’s not like the money like, um– It wasn’t like, “Oh, he’s too poor for our family,” that her parents thought. It was more like, “Well, he’s 42, and he’s living off his parents. Like, that’s not cool. Just ’cause he’s rich–“

Em: Gotcha. I–

Christine: “He’s a– Like he’s l– He’s a loser. He doesn’t do anything.” That was her dad’s take.

Em: Gotcha. I, I originally heard that as when he– It’s not that he didn’t have money. I thought you meant their, their family, the–

Christine: Oh. Oh, oh, no. So it was definitely like financially like a match, right?

Em: Sure.

Christine: Like he was a wealthy dude, but he was also like an older dude who see– his– Her dad– Her parents just thought of him as like this kind of loser mooch–

Em: No ambition.

Christine: –guy. Yeah, yeah. No ambition, exactly. So he– Griscom, this guy, was frequently referred to by his acquaintances as “Junior,” and his contemporaries described [chuckles] him as follows:–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –a plumpy, balding man with sideburns whose doting mother still buys all his shirts and ties for him.

Em: Well, that’s not kind.

Christine: No.

Em: [chuckles] That’s not a kind thing to say.

Christine: No.

Em: Hm.

Christine: And those are like his like cont– I have– Whatever. So the age gap thing, first of all. It was like a to– 15 to 17, 20ish year age gap, somewhere in that, in that, uh, range. And so, of course, this is starting to become salacious. She shouldn’t be having an affair to begin with in the eyes of like her parents and the public. But–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –um, it’s even more scandalous now that this is like this older man, and she’s missing, and her dad doesn’t approve.

Em: Yeah, it certainly doesn’t look good. I– As some–

Christine: No.

Em: If I were on the ground in this era, I would be eating this up. I’d be like, “Where the hell is she with her mysterious boyfriend–”

Christine: “Where is she? And do we support her–”

Em: “–none of us knew about?”

Christine: “–in this? Or are we like, ‘Girl, get away from the guy’? Like, what’s the deal?”

Em: And also, I’d be kind of worried– I agree with you, 100%. I would also be worried because he has money. I’m like, “What could he have paid to do–“

Christine: Thank you.

Em: “–to get her out of the picture or to take her away?”

Christine: Thank you.

Em: Or if he could afford a ship or a boat or a plane or whatever to get her out of here–

Christine: Yep.

Em: –and they could just be on a “vacation,” but then like they’re never coming back, you know?

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so– Exactly. It became like this big sensation. And this is like one of the earliest like well-known missing person’s cases in New York City, so this is like a huge deal. Um, so reporters dig into this, of course, and they discover that in September 1910, which was three months before she vanished, Dorothy had explicitly lied to her parents, telling them she was visiting a girlfriend in Cambridge, Massachusetts. But in reality, she ran off to Boston to spend a week-long rendezvous with her lover, Griscom.

Em: I mean, so there’s a pattern here, for sure.

Christine: Yes. So I think when her parents like didn’t tell the police, they were like, “We know what she’s up to.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Unfortunately, they didn’t ’cause she didn’t come back. But at the time, they really thought like, “[groans] She’s like defied us again,” you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So Dorothy, apparently, on this trip, she had actually financed this week-long getaway by pawning $500 of her own jewelry, which is like tens of thousands of dollar– like it’s a lot of money.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Like $500 is, I think, like 15–

Em: $15,000.

Christine: –grand.

Em: If $1,000 is $30,000.

Christine: Yeah, you’re right. Exactly, exactly. And so she had pawned her jewelry to pay for this trip so her parents wouldn’t find out. Um, now, the ultimatum that her parents gave her when they found out was intense. They were not happy. Okay? Uh, they strictly forbade her from continuing this relationship. Um, they found him completely unsuitable as a match. And of course, uh, in addition to using her secret mailbox for her rejection letters and sending out her art– or her, um, her writing, her creative writing, she also started to use it for some communication with Junior, with this Griscom guy.

Em: Still writing.

Christine: Still writing.

Em: Just saying.

Christine: Exactly, Em. So their final meeting: the two saw each other for a final confirmed time that we know about in early November, shortly before Griscom left on an extended European vacation with his parents. Mommy, dearest.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: In the weeks following Dorothy’s disappearance, investigators were able to verify that Griscom was actively vacationing with his parents in Florence, Italy. To which I say, how convenient, but whatever.

Em: Hm.

Christine: So on December 16, 1910, the Arnold family sent a telegram to Griscom in Florence, desperately asking for information about Dorothy’s disappearance, because, of course, the first person they thought of was this guy. And they’re like, “He must know where she is.” In a return telegram, Griscom explicitly denies any knowledge of her whereabouts and claims to know absolutely nothing regarding her disappearance. Period. End of story.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Unsatisfied with this, Dorothy’s mother, Mary, and her older brother, John, took a ship to Italy in January, a ship, to interrogate Griscom in person.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I– L-like they literally got on a boat and were like, “We’re gonna just harass him, but give us three weeks to get there first.”

Em: That, that feels like something that like– Everyone hopes for that like group of girlfriends that like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –it’s gonna be like–

Christine: Who will fucking ride or die.

Em: –“Oh, he’s cheating? Oh, well, let’s get in the car right now, and we’re all gonna go like knock on his door and call him out to his face.” Or like–

Christine: “Oh, we’re gonna cross the Atlantic Ocean real quick.”

Em: That’s like– That’s absolutely– And you know what? If you don’t have friends like that, then you don’t have friends. Period.

Christine: But also they like bullied her for writing to– for wanting to write creative, right? So I’m like–

Em: I think they–

Christine: –too little too late.

Em: I think, uh, they smelled the drama, and they were like, “Now I’m invested.”

Christine: I guess. Her mom? [laughs]

Em: I don’t know. Her mom. [laughs] Her mom.

Christine: Her mom.

Em: Honestly, yeah. It sounds like none– no one was being supportive, and now, all of a sudden, they’re gonna give a shit. But–

Christine: Now they’re suddenly– Yeah, I know. So they go on a boat, and I imagine like you have to keep up the momentum. You know when you’re like pissed off and you’re like, “I’m gonna say something”–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and then like you go to bed and you wake up and you’re like, “I’m not really that bothered anymore,” but it’s like–

Em: Yeah, you got to lock in–

Christine: –you’re on a boat.

Em: –for the length of a ship ride.

Christine: Through like seasickness. No.

Em: You– Oh my god. I hadn’t thought about the s–

Christine: I couldn’t last.

Em: I was thinking like how long– I wonder how many nautical miles that is. Like how many days? ’Cause you would think by day nine, they’ve probably thought, “I’ve sat on it long enough, and this really– I–“

Christine: “Do we care that much?”

Em: “I overreacted. We should turn the ship around.”

Christine: “Like maybe we just go to Italy, get some pasta, go home, you know.”

Em: [chuckles] “Let’s just make a trip out of this. Like it’s okay, “ you know?

Christine: Yeah. You know, that’s how I would have felt. But no, that’s not exactly what happened. They show up. They’re still as motivated as ever to confront this guy.

Em: Ride or dies, wow.

Christine: So they– I mean, really, they’re committed. So they go to the Anglo-American Hotel where they know he’s staying. They confront him in his room.

Em: I–

Christine: And–

Em: Okay, I’m sorry. I have to say like for– Across all timelines, throughout history, it just sounds like women can get it done. Like–

Christine: [laughs] I mean–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: They’re like, “Pinkerton, step aside. I’m gonna get– take a boat over to Italy real quick.”

Em: [chuckles] There was no internet.

Christine: “I’ll find him.”

Em: Like they– Yeah, they– all the way down to the location and room number.

Christine: Yes.

Em: They got it handled.

Christine: And then they got in the room and confronted him.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Like, hell yeah. I mean, I don’t know if it’s a product of the fact that it’s 1910 and everyone’s like, “I guess you can walk in”–

Em: Sure, maybe. Yeah.

Christine: –or if it’s like, or if it’s like she’s just like, “Get me over there.” But either way, I love that the older brother was like, “I’ll come too, Mom.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: And she’s like, “Whatever. You can come or not. I’m going.”

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Christine: So they confront him. And during this confrontation, Mary and John demand that Griscom hand over all the letters that he has– that Dorothy has sent to him because they wanna see what they say. They wanna see if there’s any clues where she is. He complies, and John later claimed to authorities that he and his mother read through the letters and they contained nothing of importance. And then the brother said, “Yeah, and then we destroyed them. We burned them all.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: And I’m like–

Em: I feel like that’s not what you should have done.

Christine: –“What?”

Em: I feel like you should have at least–

Christine: That’s biz–

Em: –put them on the ship.

Christine: They didn’t give them to police. They just burned them. Which– I bet you they were shameful. I bet you to them they were shameful. Like I bet you they thought–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –“Oh my god, we can’t have this leaked.”

Em: Yeah, “We can’t, we can’t, um, disgrace her, her name or something– sully her name.”

Christine: Or, “our name.”

Em: Or– Oh, god dammit. I was really rooting for these people for five minutes, and now I’m like, “I don’t actually–“

Christine: It took six weeks for them to care enough to tell the police that their sister and daughter were m– was missing.

Em: Yeah. And part of me is like maybe on– let’s say– not to– I’m not trying to bring back a joke after it’s happened already, but this fucking ship ride. If it were a, a day in, and like you said, like maybe they were still heated, I could see them burning it out of fury and not having thought it through. But like you’ve had enough time to concoct a plan that actually is logical, and the only logical one is bring evidence home so people–

Christine: Ah, w– Exactly. It’s like, “Okay, look at the evidence. Burn it. N– Don’t let anyone else see it.” And then when they ask, they’re like, “It was nothing important.”

Em: You’re totally right that the only reason they would have done that at that point–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –is if they read it and it was salacious, as you said.

Christine: Because like if it was not actually helping where she is, then they’re like, “Well, this is useless and also shameful and also–“ I mean, I don’t know. Yeah, that, that’s my gut. But what the fuck do I know? But upon his–

Em: I think you’re spot on.

Christine: It, it gets really, really awkward and weird now again because [chuckles] they burn all the letters. Then they get back to the United States, and then eventually, in February, Griscom gets back to the United States, and he holds his own press conference. [chuckles]

Em: Okay.

Christine: He–

Em: And you know what? He probably can now that they burned all the evidence.

Christine: True. I mean, true. He stated that he fully intended to marry Dorothy once she was found.

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: He got up on the, on the big podium and said, “I hereby declare w– on– that if she is found, I will marry her on this very day,” and then he says, “As long as her mother approves of our union.” And his mother said, “Under no circumstances.”

Em: [chuckles] Right. Sh–

Christine: “Absolutely not.”

Em: "I never did, and I never would.” Yeah.

Christine: Like read the room, bud.

Em: [laughs] It’s like, “We literally shipped–“

Christine: So she’s like, “Not even a little bit.”

Em: “–all the way to you, burned everything that you have left of her.”

Christine: Yes.

Em: “What do you mean, ‘if we approve’?”

Christine: Yeah. ‘’If we approve’? We literally burned your missives to each other ’cause we could care less.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That– “We could not care any less than we do.” Um–

Em: What a weird thing to do. Okay.

Christine: And h– she’s like– he goes, “As long as her parents approve,” and they were like, “Literally, go fuck yourself. No.” And so that was awkward. Um, then we go to this report. Okay, this is, um, the San Francisco Chronicle, and, you know, this is obviously becoming national news. Um, the San Francisco Chronicle, the same month, uh, that this kind of like Griscom press conference thing happened, they report– February 1911, they report– they published this sensational report stating that clerks at the Anglo-American Hotel in Florence, where he’d been staying, had seen a mysterious veiled woman during the time that, uh, Griscom was staying there that they believed believed to be Dorothy Arnold.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So according to hotel staff, Griscom and the veiled woman engaged in an “earnest talk” that the clerks could not overhear, but they noted that the woman appeared “greatly agitated.”

Em: Oh?

Christine: So that’s like the next–

Em: Hm.

Christine: –kind of clue, but it doesn’t really go anywhere.

Em: So okay, just from hearing that as like a– as new ears with no–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –understanding of what happens next. So they’re confirming that she was there and that she looked mad, and now she’s missing. That’s not helpful to him.

Christine: Well, no, it’s not good. But they’re also saying they think that the staff saw her. They saw a woman that could have been her. So it’s not even like, oh, they recognized her. It’s sort of like they saw a mysterious veiled woman.

Em: Could have been anyone. Yeah.

Christine: And they’re like, “Could it be?” You know, so it very well could be not her.

Em: But if–

Christine: –but–

Em: And if what he’s saying– I don’t know if it’s under oath. Well, no, it’s just a press conference. If he’s saying like, “Oh, she was the love of my life and I was gonna marry her,” he would then have to admit that it is that– it is her. Right? That– Like I mean, just by that logic it would be, “Oh, well then it’s probably that woman.”

Christine: Oh, they weren’t doing anything romantic. It was like they were just having like a hushed conversation–

Em: Oh, right.

Christine: –she seemed upset.

Em: So it could been like a business person or–

Christine: It literally could have been like a sister, a business part– Right, exactly. Some random lady.

Em: You’re totally right.

Christine: Like it, it sort of feels like a dead-end even though it’s like [gasps]. But– I mean, maybe it is, but also like very well could be some other random lady with a headscarf on that you can’t see, you know?

Em: Sure.

Christine: Um, so, [chuckles] so I, I, I, though– I’m kind of with you in that like I feel that he’s– Something’s just rubbing me a little wrong. And I’ll, I’ll add to, to it with this: Griscom had this sort of like advertising campaign he went on after this where he– in the months following this public announcement, um, he spent thousands of dollars purchasing advertisements in major newspapers across the country, begging Dorothy to come home. And I was like–

Em: He killed her.

Christine: I know! I was like, “This is fucking nuts. Who does– Like what a weirdo? He’s being so fucking weird.”

Em: Well, I feel like he would only do that if he knew that she wouldn’t see it. And then–

Christine: Yes.

Em: So like I feel like he put it out there, knowing that he could get away with that. Because if she saw that and– The person that she’s secretly in love with and her family and everyone’s looking for her, she would have– someone would have– I don’t know.

Christine: I find it so weird. I’m like– I don’t know. He’s just being fucking weird as shit. Um, so I have some like context here and a little bit of like potential theories. Um, by the end of January of 1911, um, she’d been missing like t– a month or two. Uh, the NYPD publicly stated they still believed Dorothy was alive and would eventually return, but a lot of times that’s said, right? Like, “They just ran away. They’re just being young and stupid–“

Em: Mm.

Christine: “–and they’ll come home.” Um, spoiler alert, she did not come home, so I don’t necessarily think that’s true. Um, conversely, the Arnold family actually said, uh, publicly they believed she was dead, that their daughter was dead–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –which I was like, “Whoa. Okay. Um, all right. I guess, I guess you– I guess you’d know better than anyone.” But Francis Arnold, the dad, he had a theory. He held another fucking press conference where he stated he believed from the very start that his daughter had been attacked, robbed, and killed while walking home through Central Park.

Em: Mm. Okay.

Christine: Hm. He theorized that her attacker had thrown her body into the Central Park reservoir to hide the crime, but the temperature in New York had dropped to 21 degrees, and the reservoir had frozen. But then they r– searched the entire–

Em: Reservoir?

Christine: They searched Central Park, but they also searched the entire reservoir and– when it thawed, and there was not a trace of her or anyone.

Em: Hm.

Christine: So it’s just weird. Like you clearly just invented that to be like, “Oh, she died so tragically, getting thrown into a fucking frozen lake. Too bad.” Like to make your family less ashamed. I don’t know. It just feels really weird to me.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Here are the kind of rumors and theories that have circulated ever since. Um, amnesia – this is what her mother believed, that Dorothy slipped on the ice, struck her head, and was wandering around the country with no memory of her identity. Um, there were a lot of false sightings all the way from California to New England. So she kind of held on to that hope like maybe she’s out there and just doesn’t remember.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, and it, it does happen. I mean–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –it’s very rare, but it does happen. Um, a secret elopement, that she, you know, utilized like a fake passport maybe or an assumed name to travel to Europe and meet someone else, like some other unknown lover that we don’t know about. It feels like a little weird ’cause she’d had such an ongoing affair with this other guy.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But whatever. Um, suicide is one of the theories, that she took her own life because of the rejection and the toxic home environment. But then on the other hand, you think like she went out, bought chocolates, bought a book, was like in good spirits, planning for her sister’s– I mean, again– And I like– It’s so hard because you say suicide and you don’t wanna be like, “This is not how someone would act,” right? Like–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –I can’t make that claim.

Em: And also there’s the, the– I don’t know what the right phrasing of it is, but a lot of people, the week leading up to it–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –if they’ve already planned something, they usually are shockingly in good spirits.

Christine: Like higher spirits. Yeah, that’s true.

Em: ’Cause they’re– They’re d–

Christine: I have heard that.

Em: They’ve made a plan, you know.

Christine: That’s true. I have heard that. There’s another, um, theory called the botched abortion theory–

Em: Ooh.

Christine: –um, which is the most persistent theory and most complex, um, and like most salacious I would say. Uh, Dr. C. C. Meredith is the guy’s name. In April 1914, police in a Pittsburgh suburb raided a clandestine maternity clinic operated by Dr. C. C. Meredith, an establishment notorious among locals as the “House of Mystery”–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –due to women occasionally vanishing after seeking services there.

Em: Oh.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And she was a powerful or important figure in town, so maybe– I don’t know.

Christine: Like if, if something had happened, maybe it had to b–

Em: In my mind, if someone is in there, uh, making women vanish, why not– I, I could see someone thinking, “Oh–“ if it’s for like trafficking, like, “Oh, she’s a significant person or she’s–“

Christine: Well, I think it’s more that it’s a– an abortion clinic, and so if something goes wrong–

Em: Oh, they die.

Christine: –that they just kind of dispose of the body. Yeah.

Em: I see. I, I turned it into trafficking.

Christine: I mean, that could have been a part of it, but I think it was more that he did like, um– It was called a clandestine maternity clinic, so I think he was performing abortions and–

Em: No, you’re right.

Christine: The reason this is even brought up is that during the investigation, um, an associate named Dr. H. E. Lutz testified that Dr. Meredith had claimed a young well-known woman from New York had died in his clinic during an abortion, and her body was subsequently burned in the basement furnace.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: And Lutz believed the– his co-worker, his associate believed that it was Dorothy Arnold.

Em: Oh, shit. Okay, that’s a pretty–

Christine: I think that’s a very solid lead.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I mean, if she’s having an affair, she’s like trapped in this corner type thing, you know? I mean, it’s just tale as old as time, unfortunately. Um, and now here’s another one. Uh, the Edward Glennoris confession. In April 1916, a convicted felon named Edward Glennoris, um, who was imprisoned in Rhode Island for extortion, confessed to one of the wardens that he had been paid to bury her body in 1910–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –like after the abortion. So there are multiple people now saying that this has happened.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, Glennoris claimed that an acquaintance named Little Louie hired him. They drove to a house in New Rochelle, New York, where they met two men, a physician referred to only as “Doc” and a wealthy, well-dressed man matching the physical description of George Griscom Jr.

Em: Get out. Wow.

Christine: I know. I know.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So maybe he knows a thing or two about what happened.

Em: I bet he does.

Christine: Mm-hmm. The transport to Weehawken – then Glennoris claimed that, uh, he and Little Louie were instructed to load an unconscious woman into a car and drive her to a specific house in Weehawken, New Jersey. And during the drive, uh, he says that– Glennoris says that Little Louie explained that the woman was named Dorothy Arnold–

Em: Shut up.

Christine: –that– Yeah, that Glennoris claimed he recognized her face, confirmed her identity by the signet ring on her index finger, and the next day, Little Louie contacted him to finish the job. And returning to the Weehawken home, “Doc” told them she had died during an operation, and Glennoris said he was paid $250 to wrap her body in a sheet and bury her deep in the cellar of the home.

Em: Holy shit.

Christine: But when formally questioned by authorities, suddenly, Glennoris feigned total confusion, recanted his entire testimony, and claimed he knew nothing about her disappearance. Um, police did excavate several cellars in Weehawken, but they didn’t find anything.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Um, and so the abortion theory does represent like a logical contiguous timeline–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –if we’re talking like– So the Comstock laws had been enacted. Um, they restricted access to contraception, abortion. It was also seen as like obscene and immoral and every word in the book, right, and especially for parents like she had. Um, by early December, uh– So she had spent that secret week with him, remember, in Boston–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –in September. So by December, she would have been like two and a half months pregnant, which would be like the turning point of like not being able to hide this any longer or–

Em: Right.

Christine: –facing like, oh, these symptoms are gonna be more obvious.

Em: Oh. [sighs]

Christine: Um, also this– Details from this Glennoris guy are so fucking specific. Like the ring. He recognized a signet ring that like she actually owned, and he mentioned it in the testimony and then later recanted, but like said he rec– he saw this ring on her finger, and she, she did have that. Um, same with the “Doc” characteristics that he described like all match up to the, the doctor who did the, um, secret abortions. And it’s just really a little bit too– I don’t know. It feels like it rings a little too possible to me to discount.

Em: I agree with you. I think at this point it’s–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –it’s either that guy’s story or just general botched abortion.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, which is just tragic. Um, so this is the last thing I’m gonna say here. Um, the last letter she ever wrote I’m gonna mention because it does give kind of an eerie little kind of, um, aside to, to all this. In one of the few pieces of correspondence that did survive the sort of fiery purge that they put all her other letters through, Dorothy wrote a letter to George Griscom Jr., detailing the rejection of her creative writing.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: She explicitly stated, quote, “Failure stares me in the face. All I see ahead is a long road with no turning… Mother will always think an accident has happened.”

Em: Ooh.

Christine: And that feels like intent– more intentional or more–

Em: That certainly feels sinister.

Christine: “Mother will think an accident has happened.” I mean, that’s– And it’s like we don’t know the whole letter context, so maybe it’s less–

Em: Just pulled out of– misquoted.

Christine: Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. It’s just really weird. Junior and his– plump balding guy who lives with his parents and then went on this like weird romantic like quest to get her back, and I’m convinced he knew she wasn’t coming back.

Em: I, I–

Christine: I agree with you that he was just trying to get his name out as like a good guy, you know.

Em: He, he– I feel like he really knew that she wasn’t coming back, which means he knew something, maybe not that he did anything–

Christine: Right.

Em: –but maybe he knew something and knew that he couldn’t tell anyone or else he’s now held a-accountable in some way.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I do wonder if– And also like if he gave the letters over to the family, you can only imagine he would have already sorted through the ones that were like–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –not, not really safe for work or like not–

Em: Sure.

Christine: If they had written about the abortion, I don’t think he would have like handed it over– the pregnancy, I don’t think he would have like handed the letters over, you know?

Em: Right.

Christine: Um, so yeah, I mean we don’t fucking know. It’s just crazy. Like we don’t know if she died during a medical operation, um, tragically. We don’t know if she just like got on a train and started a new life and changed her name and just was never heard again– heard from again. Um, but either way, she pulled off one of the most complete disappearances in American history. There’s just like no trace. Like she just vanished. By the way, I know I’ve said it a bunch, but broad daylight in the middle of Manhattan.

Em: Crazy.

Christine: Ran into a friend and then poof. So not even the wealth of Francis, Francis Arnold, not even the Pinkertons themselves–

Em: Insane.

Christine: –could bring her back.

Em: Because I had so much faith in them.

Christine: I know, of all people.

Em: I was really rooting for them.

Christine: Yeah. So that is the story. I mean, she’s sometimes called the Girl Who Never Came Back or like– It’s just really– It’s just sad. It’s just sad and like kind of creepy that you could just poof.

Em: It’s, it’s a nice, uh, reminder of like how far– in, you know, in a good way only. It’s also in a scary way, but how far we’ve come technology-wise–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –where like if she just had a phone on her, you know, like just an AirTag.

Christine: I know.

Em: Or something. Like it–

Christine: I know.

Em: It’s crazy that we would at least have a little more information.

Christine: I know. It’s always like that with these cases where it’s like just one thing would have really– would push the needle in a certain direction, but like–

Em: Like in Manhattan? Like I can’t imagine a world where you live in Manhattan and there’s not security cameras everywhere, you know?

Christine: Yeah. Except in 1910. [chuckles]

Em: Except in 1910. I, um, I wonder if in the letters that he handed over it did say that she got an abortion and that’s why they burnt it because that was the salacious activity–

Christine: Oh, shit.

Em: –that they didn’t want anyone knowing.

Christine: Maybe they did know that’s where she went, and everyone covered it up. Oh my god, Em. It’s like Pearl all over again.

Em: I feel like the family could have been like, “Oh, well, nobody can know that they were sleeping together.”

Christine: Right.

Em: And then that’s why they left him alone ’cause they were like, “We don’t, we don’t want anybody to know.”

Christine: Yes. It’s very possible, I think. It’s, it’s plausible anyway.

Em: I don’t know. There– I don’t like how many options there are that I agree with. I–

Christine: I know.

Em: –really thought this was a– I don’t know. You know me always thinking I’m gonna solve it. Who am I? The Pinkertons? No.

Christine: [laughs] Listen, maybe.

Em: [chuckles] Well, uh, good storytelling. I can see why you needed to break that up if you were on your way to a meeting, and you needed to, uh– That was a good– You weren’t gonna be able to do that quickly.

Christine: I literally had like four, five, six pages left when I ended the last set of notes, so yeah, it was necessary.

Em: Y– Last time you just–

Christine: But I do apologize it took so long.

Em: You just set up the scene last time.

Christine: I did, and then I said, “Oops, gotta go”–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and then forgot.

Em: No, it was very well done. I’m glad we– The, the, the suspense, uh, of others, I’m assuming, was– It was worth it, so.

Christine: Yeah, my friend, Julio, was like, “Am I crazy or did I–” And I was like, “Don’t even start with me.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: ’Cause he’s the one who suggested this topic. So he’s like, “I went and listened,” and then I forgot part two. Sorry, Julio.

Em: Whoopsies. Well, next week, I don’t know what I’m gonna cover yet, but it is not gonna be about Zak Bagans, I promise, so.

Christine: Allegedly. We’ll see.

Em: Allegedly. Alright, we’ll see you guys next week. And–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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