E481 Pizza Payments and Original Coffee Thoughts

TOPICS: THE TRANQUILLE SANATORIUM, VIRGINIA RUSSELL

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It’s Episode 481 and we’re learning all sorts of new words today! To kick us off Em takes us to Canada for one of their most haunted locations, the Tranquille Sanatorium. Then Christine covers the case of Virginia Russell sent to us by friend and listener Charlie. And join us in wishing Hank a very happy gotcha day! …and that’s why we drink!

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Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: Hello everyone. Welcome to And That’s Why We Drink. We are here today to cover some spooky tales, and I can’t wait to do it. My name is Christine, and I’m here with my co-host, the Em Schulz.

Em: Oh my. How could– You get a– not get a “the” in front of your name?

Christine: The Xtine. ’Cause, you know, there’s– I don’t know. I’m just– It feels a little bit like presumptuous.

Em: You gotta own it though. You gotta be like, “It’s me, The Xtine.”

Christine: That sound– Even when you said it, it didn’t sound very like confident, you know. It just maybe doesn’t roll the same way “the Em” does.

Em: You know, but every time someone sees “the Em” written out, it looks like “theem,” and it looks–

Christine: I do think, I do think that, but your pronouns are they/them, so it does kind of work.

Em: [laughs] It is kind of a half, half–

Christine: Like it sort of feels like you’re doing the thing where you put like extra letters at the end ’cause someone else took your name.

Em: Oh, I love that. No–

Christine: I love that.

Em: –unfortunately, I’m just– It just looks poorly spelled.

Christine: Mm.

Em: But, uh–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Well, try being– One time I tried to make, um– Oh my god, what was it? It was something very embarrassing. I– It was back in the day. I think I made Gio’s account, and it said something like G– [sighs] Gio– It was like “Gio loves socks.” It just– Something about it ended up looking like not so–

Em: It looked a little iffy.

Christine: It looked a little iffy. And I just remember everyone going, “Christine, with love, like what is this?” And I–

Em: Oh, really? I don’t remember that. Well.

Christine: Um, I think it was literally before I even knew you.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Like that’s how quickly it came and went. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –but I will live with that shame for the rest of my life of going, “Okay, I gotta look at every username I make from the eyes of someone who’s never read it before,” ’cause it really– like that can throw you off big time.

Em: I, I– Thank you for telling me. Now, um, maybe I should change “theemschulz” after all this time. I–

Christine: No, no, no, no. No, yours doesn’t look bad. That’s why–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: I’m just saying like I’m gonna stick with whatever the hell I’ve got going ’cause I’m afraid to even venture too far, you know.

Em: You’re very lucky to have an X though ’cause that really makes it visually aesthetically fun no matter what is– what else is going on in there.

Christine: You know, it’s funny ’cause then my brother became “Xandy,” and it was like, oh, weird. Like our parents–

Em: Hm.

Christine: Like we just kind of both came up with– we suddenly have Z-name– and my si–

Em: You both just need to be so bad.

Christine: Oh, X’s. But then my sister’s name is Ziska, so she is the Z. And it’s like, what’s happening with our family? I don’t know.

Em: You guys really rocked it with the X-X-Z.

Christine: Thanks so much.

Em: Yeah, I, um– Why do you drink this week?

Christine: Well, first of all, I have this new tradition where, um– It’s my McDonald’s coffee. And what I do is that, um, on certain– Like once a month, um, Leona gets her Happy Meal–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and I’m usually– Like sometimes I’ll get a snack wrap situation or something, but, um, my new, my new tradition– I almost said my new habit, and it’s more of a bad habit than a– than an actual tradition.

Em: [chuckles] Like is today the first of this tradition or–

Christine: It’s the first– it’s the fir– It’s the second, it’s the second.

Em: Okay, got it.

Christine: Two times does a pattern make? Perhaps. Uh, I buy it the night before with like lit– very little ice, take a few sippies, put it in the fridge. Next morning, got a nice big vanilla ice latte, add some ice. Um, mm-mmm, mm, mm, mm.

Em: You got a, you got a sweet treat from past you.

Christine: I’m loving it. And also–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I did. That’s right. And also–

[silence as Christine looks offscreen in thought]

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: I just realized.

Em: That you said, “I’m loving it,” and did you mean it for McDonald’s?

Christine: I did. I did. That part was intentional. I know it didn’t seem it, but actually, I just realized last night and last Monday night, I could not sleep. I was up till like 2:30, 3:00 in the morning, and it’s sort of now kind of all screeching to a big train crash–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –in my head of, “Hey, maybe don’t like drink a–“

Em: Maybe this shouldn’t be a tradition.

Christine: “–third of that thing before bed, pretending like you bought it for tomorrow but it’s 9 o’clock at night.”

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Interesting.

Em: I did– We did watch in real time you have an original thought. Like–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I– [laughs] I was–

Christine: You were speaking to me, and I was like, “I’m actually not present. Hold on.”

Em: Every–

Christine: “She’s not here right now.”

Em: It w– I– It was clear. Everyone go–

Christine: “She’s not here.” [laughs]

Em: –watch that if you can, if you have YouTube accessible because–

Christine: [laughs] Oh my god.

Em: –it was– I was just like–

Christine: No, you know Megan’s gonna–

Em: –“Should we stop? Should we stop recording?”

Christine: Megan’s gonna make the one where it’s like the spinny wheel over my head where my–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: It's like, “Oh, she froze. Oops.”

Em: I really kept– I was like–

Christine: Control-alt-delete.

Em: –“Are you okay?”

Christine: Control-alt-delete. Sometimes– Do you ever do that? Sometimes I do control-Z, and then I’m like, “Wait, I’m in life.”

Em: Oh, yeah. Like– Yes.

Christine: Like I like type it. [laughs]

Em: No. I, I–

Christine: I thought you were agreeing with me, so I kept going.

Em: I think more like I, I sit here and think, “Oh, I wish I could take that back and then–“

Christine: Oh.

Em: That's kind of just as far as I go in real time. But–

Christine: You know, it always hits me too late that, that I’m not on a computer. I mean, I’m sort of on a computer, but control-Z, I haven’t found like the motherlode cheat code, the rosebud cheat code–

Em: [groans]

Christine: –the control-Z. None of it works in real life.

Em: I’m, I’m waiting for the rosebud cheat code. That’s a–

Christine: Please.

Em: She got me far in life, in, in fake life, so I’m really shooting for real life now.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Well, I’m glad you have a tradition that will be dying today, I guess. Um–

Christine: Uh, yeah, that was a really long-standing and fun tradition that happened twice um, and I am better for it, I think. Thank you so much for watching that kind of happen in real time.

Em: Do you have a reason why you drink?

Christine: I guess that might be it, huh?

Em: Oh, sure. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Maybe you already answered that and I wasn’t listening?

Christine: No, no.

Em: Or it didn’t stick. I don’t know.

Christine: I was extremely excited about my new pattern. Now I’m extremely un-excited about my new tradition.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So that’s that. Um, I don’t really have any other reasons. I mean, I’ve got the window open. It’s like a beautiful breezy day. Last night, it rained, and I had the windows– the screen open, and I did that thing where I pretended–

Em: I’m so jealous.

Christine: –like I was in a safe place with my blankie. I mean, I was in a safe place, to be clear–

Em: Now–

Christine: –but I, I did–

Em: –that I can relate to.

Christine: You know the mental place where you’re like, “Oh, I go back to like a place that feels cozy in my mind and then–“ [groans]

Em: Absolutely. I go there every five minutes.

Christine: And then I heard this sound, and I went, “What could that be?” And I thought, “Surely it’s not my problem.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And then I heard the sound again. [laughs] And you’ll recall I had had a third of my McDonald’s vanilla iced coffee about two hours– nope, five hours earlier– [laughs]

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: –at this point. And I heard this commotion. And it was only about five feet from my bed, so I really just had to turn on my flashlight and look. And, um, wouldn’t you know it, there was a thunderstorm coming in the, the window. And there was just, just, just water everywhere and just two angry cats.

Em: You know– [sighs] I am sorry. I also– I have to tell you though, part of me is like, “God, I really wish I could have that experience.”

Christine: I gotta say it was an extremely wonderful experience. And I got a giant towel, beach towel, like put it on the ground, made sure the dog bed they were all sleeping in was dry. You know, like this gust of wind came in sideways is what had happened.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And the–

Em: It just splashed in.

Christine: –the cats got startled, and everybody just went crazy. And then I just threw a giant towel down and said, “That’s enough for everyone. Good night.” And then Blaise said, “What happened?” I said, “Nothing. Don’t even worry.”

Em: There’s like– There’s those YouTube videos like you can watch and like listen to rain in a certain ar– environment and–

Christine: [sighs] On a train.

Em: –unf– On a train. Last night I was listening in an RV. Like I was out in the woods by myself.

Christine: Oh, that’s nice.

Em: And, uh, other times, I’m on a boat, and it’s raining.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Other times, I’m in a forest, you know. I mean, it’s never– I always pick a new thing.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Sometimes I’m in space, and it’s raining and then that really makes no sense, but I don’t question it.

Christine: Wow.

Em: And, uh, I feel like a lot of people do that just for the vibes momentarily, but as someone who lives in LA and it never rains, it really is the only way I get my rain experience. And so–

Christine: I get it.

Em: –I really– I am– I hold them like near and dear, and I’ve got a very curated playlist. And I’m so jealous and happy for you at the same time. What’s the, what’s the happy jealousy? Compersion. I feel compersion for you.

Christine: Is that a word? I didn’t know that.

Em: Yeah, I– That’s–

Christine: That’s nice.

Em: It has been explained to me that way where it’s like, oh, you’re jealous in a happy way–

Christine: Like– Right.

Em: –and you don’t wanna take, but it’s– but you are still a little jealous.

Christine: You’re not necessarily like coveting it like–

Em: Right.

Christine: –you wanna take it away from me. It’s just like, “Aw.”

Em: Like, “No hard feelings, but I do envy that.”

Christine: And I get it because it really is a special thing. And having lived in LA, I know how it’s like bizarre when you’re like deprived of [chuckles] weather for a while and then all of a sudden things are green and like wet, and you’re like, “Ahh, what’s happening?” Um, and I will say too, like I’ve learned about myself, sensory-wise, that I’m very, very sensitive to smell. And like–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –smell is one of those things that like really helps me ground and calm and whatever. And um, growing up I was never allowed to have anything like scented in the house because of reasons. I– It changed every year: migraines, uh, chemicals–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –fires. I don’t know. There was always a reason I wasn’t allowed to have anything like scented. And so now I’m like finally diving into that, like tiptoeing. And I realized like with the rain, I love to have it open ’cause you can smell the rain, and I’m like, “Oh my god, it’s a sensory experience like on every level.”

Em: It is.

Christine: It’s really, um, soothing, and I’ve started just like taking advantage of that. Open the windows, you know. Just enjoy it.

Em: The– Another fancy word: petrichor.

Christine: Oh, I love that. It's the best.

Em: The smell of rain.

Christine: That’s right.

Em: Although, let me backtrack real quick. I think, um– ’Cause I just– [chuckles] I looked it up ’cause I was like–

Christine: It’s the smell of rain on concrete, isn’t it? Or no–

Em: Oh, I think petrichor is just the– I thought it was the smell of oncoming rain. Maybe I’m just bad at fucking words. I don’t know.

Christine: Oh, oh! Oh, yeah. It’s like the ozone s– Wait, no.

Em: Like when you– Yeah.

Christine: That’s like the ozone smell.

Em: That’s what I thought.

Christine: Oh, okay.

Em: Also I just looked up the word compersion, and apparently it’s the opposite of jealousy where it’s no jealousy, only pure happiness for you.

Christine: Oh, LOL.

Em: So I don’t actually feel that at all for you when it’s raining.

Christine: I was gonna say I don’t– Oh, okay. Oh, you don’t– [laughs]

Em: Um– [laughs] I’m just–

Christine: Thanks.

Em: There’s definitely jealousy there. Um–

Christine: Uh, petrichor is the earthy sweet scent– Oh, yeah. So when rain hits soil is what it is. Sorry.

Em: Mm. That’s a good smell.

Christine: So it’s like when it like kind of hits– Oh, and it comes from the word “stone.” That’s why I thought that. ’Cause petrichor, like petra– like stone. So it sort of like makes this smell in the air. Oh, it’s so nice. Anyway.

Em: You know what I like about myself is that I do know that there are words out there that exist, but I just don’t always know what they mean. That was two in a row. I kind of half-knew–

Christine: Which ones? No, you knew what that one– You brought it up. You brought both up.

Em: Yeah, but I know compersion exists. And then I f–

Christine: Well, what’s–

Em: –fucked up the definition.

Christine: So what is comper–

Em: And then I–

Christine: I don’t understand. What does it mean? Now you can teach me.

Em: It’s like just– It’s just like, oh, like so happy and overjoyed for somebody without any jealousy.

Christine: So it’s not– Okay. Oh, okay.

Em: So as someone who’s envious of the rain–

Christine: So, so there’s probably not a n– So there’s not a nice word maybe for what you’re saying. Maybe.

Em: Mm, yeah, I’m in the middle.

Christine: ’Cause–

Em: I, I–

Christine: There must be a German word ’cause, you know, they have schadenfreude and all that.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like there must be one.

Em: I, I– If there is a word for the– for compersion and jealousy mixed together where I am so happy for you and don’t wanna take from you, however I wish it was my experience–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –that’s how I feel.

Christine: I think that’s kind of what jealousy is though.

Em: I guess so, but I feel like–

Christine: I, I mean not necessarily happy for the other person.

Em: That’s what– It’s what jealousy should look like.

Christine: Agreed.

Em: Maybe.

Christine: Because jealousy is a sign that, that there’s something that you feel like you’re not fulfilling in yourself, right? So it’s like–

Em: Mm.

Christine: I mean, not with rain, right?

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Okay, maybe. But like, you know, if you’re like jealous of somebody’s success, you’re like, “Oh, that’s something in me I, I, I feel like I wanna be able to express.”

Em: You want to attain.

Christine: Yeah. Or you feel like you can do that, but you’re not doing– you know, something like that. So I feel like that does sort of fit. But you’ve got your rain sounds, and I think that’s a very, um–

Em: It’s enough for now.

Christine: –nice approach to it. Oh, yeah. Do you like my shirt?

Em: What’s it say? Murder! Oh, that’s fun.

[Christine straightens her gray shirt. Three crows sit on top of the word “murder.” Underneath, a fourth crow is laying on its back with its feet in the air.]

Christine: It says, it says, it says “murder.” It has three crows on top, and then it presumably– I think– I like to think he’s playing dead ’cause that feels like something a crow would do.

Em: Sure. I have–

Christine: But this says murder.

Em: I have, um– I was gonna say, I think I have a very similar shirt–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –and–

Christine: My, my mother–

Em: But I–

Christine: –got this off, I think, the TikTok shop, so if that’s where you encountered it. I got it for Christmas, and she said, “Why is it so short? It’s for babies,” and I said, “It’s a crop top.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And she said, “Well, I didn’t know that when I bought it, and now it’s gonna show your belly,” and I said, “Okay, we gotta have– stop having this conversation.”

Em: [chuckles] Whoa.

Christine: So anyway, where did you find it? Or where did you get it?

Em: I don’t know. That’s why I paused. I was like, “I think I know–“ But I couldn’t tell you where I got it from. Um–

Christine: I bet you it’s on TikTok shop making the rounds. I bet you.

Em: She’s a, she’s a thirsty little hoe, that TikTok shop, and she gets me every time.

Christine: She likes to lure me in. And I said, “No, no, no.”

Em: Not here. Not today. Not now, not like this.

Christine: “Don’t do, don’t do this, right? Not like this. Not about my boobs. Leave my boobs out of this.” Once I start looking for a bra, it’s like game over. Every three fucking swipes it’s somebody’s boobs in my face–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and I’m like, “Okay.” Like I get it, but it’s not in the same sort of like fun way.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: It’s more like, “Look at these! And–“

Em: “Buy something!”

Christine: “–let’s put a wire.” Yeah. “Buy something!”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Oh, startling. Okay. Sorry. Why do you drink?

Em: I– [chuckles] I drink because–

Christine: ’Cause it’s not raining– [chuckles]

Em: ’Cause it’s not raining.

Christine: –where you are.

Em: I’m always drinking for that. The day it does rain, I’ll be drinking for that. Um, two days from now is, uh, Hanky’s Gotcha Day.

Christine: Ah! Are you serious? A year?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: That can’t be right.

Em: It’s the truth. Hankies, you wanna come here? Come here.

Christine: Wow. My heart. Oh my god. I can’t even stand it. Are you kidding me right now?

Em: [to Hank offscreen] The last time you were here, we didn’t like you. [laughs] Come here. And, uh, it’s– Can you come up?

Christine: Uh-oh.

Em: Yeah. Come on up, puppy. So everyone gets a nice look at a, a happily adopted baby boy. Oh, where did everybody go?

Christine: You just froze all of a sudden. It was like– Your computer bumped, and then it just like froze.

Em: Oh. Well, I don’t know what happened.

Christine: I thought– I assumed like the Ethernet came out or something, but I guess not.

Em: No, we’re all good. I was like, “The second I bring my dog up here? Really?”

Christine: No, no. It was crazy. It was like– I thought he like hit a button, and I thought you were gonna come on and say, “You’ll never believe what Hank did.” I didn’t realize I was also like frozen.

Em: No. Everyone went away. And here he is. Hang on. Hankies, hey.

Christine: Okay. Well, I know why. It’s karma.

Em: Can you sit?

Christine: ’Cause you said, “The last time you were here we didn’t like you,” and I would say, uh, not we, you.

[Em turns their camera to the side, lowering the angle as Hank appears onscreen. Hank is sitting on a bench in a window. He is black and tan with a white chest, a partly white muzzle, and a white stripe down his nose from above his eyebrows.]

Em: Can you say hello? Hi, chicken.

Christine: It’s a baby.

Em: Are you a baby boy, chicken?

Christine: Wow. Are you shy? [gasps]

Em: Are you a little scared? It’s okay.

[Hank looks down, and Em turns the camera back around to face them.]

Em: Anyway, that’s him.

Christine: He’s–

Em: Uh, he’s still alive, everybody.

Christine: –perfect.

Em: He’s a sweet, gentle man. He did not used to be–

Christine: He’s–

Em: –and now you are. Um–

Christine: –literally perfect.

Em: He– So it’s been a full year and–

Christine: Can do no wrong.

Em: –it’s been a real journey. And so–

Christine: Yeah. How’s the journey? Tell me everything. One year.

Em: How– We went from enemies to lovers. It’s been really wonderful. Um–

Christine: One year after getting Gio, I realized– I’d realized it a lot sooner that I had made a huge mistake. But by a year, I fucking figured my shit out.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: But like, woof, I made a huge mistake.

Em: Yep.

Christine: And then I went, “Never again.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: But I was also extremely poor, and I was also working 13-hour days. And I was also spending any money I did make on doggy daycare, and then I had to take a loan out–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –because I had to pay for my dog’s daycare. And then I thought, “I’ve really, really gotten it.” So you did it in a much healthier way where you had a home. You had at least some lawn. I didn’t even have a fucking balcony. You had like a– You, you, you had a, a more– a safer home for a pup to come to.

Em: Well, thank you. I–

Christine: And I– I’m just– I’m thankful that he’s thriving. He’s such a perfect gentleman. I would die for him.

Em: He’s a very good boy. I, um– Yeah, when we first got him– I– And thank you for mentioning the lawn because I, I actively told Allison we were never allowed to adopt any animal until we had a yard. So–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –um, so thank you because that was an intentional decision. But no, he was, um– I’ve been telling everyone at the dog park that his gotcha day is coming up, and everyone there has now known me for a year, and they’re like, “Oh, remember when you used to come here–“

Christine: It’s kinda crazy.

Em: “–and beg people at the park to take him away?” [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs] ’Cause it’s like your gotcha day.

Em: It’s– Yeah. I, uh–

Christine: There’s a sticker at my local bookstore called– that says, “Who save– Who rescued who?” And then underneath, it says, “I rescued them. They would die without me.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: And I was like, “Thank you. Someone had to say it.”

Em: Well, uh, he used to have this like neon orange bandana that would say like, “Please adopt me. I’m a foster.” And I would just go to people at the dog park and be like, “Oh, do you need another dog? Please take this dog.” [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Parade him around.

Em: And, uh, as everybody knows, uh–

Christine: So what? Okay. So as everyone knows–

Em: –everyone in the comments, everyone in the comments very quickly said like, “I don’t know why you’re even doing that. We all know he’s gonna end up with you,” so.

Christine: Right. Right. And I knew it already ’cause I just– I knew you would have a dog named Hank. I didn’t know that I knew it, but when you said his name’s Hank, I went, “Oh, shit. That's your dog.” And then I was like, “But I can’t say that ’cause that’s gonna just get– muddy the waters. I don’t wanna get involved.” And then– And I didn’t wanna pressure you to get a dog. You know, I was like, “That’s not my–“ As someone who experienced a really stupid way of getting a dog, I didn’t wanna like pressure anyone else. But then, but then I mean, it just was fate. I think it was meant to be.

Em: Well, thank you. I don’t think you did it in a stupid way, but I, I do know what you mean. It was– We were definitely younger and didn’t know what we were doing. And also, you were– I know you were struggling at your job, so. [chuckles]

Christine: It was sort of like I put every ounce of everything I had into this dog to, to my own expense and my own like detr– like serious detriment. And then I realized like, “Oh, the dog is very like loved and taken care of, but like I’ve lost my job and like all these other things because I was like too invested in the dog.” It was very unhealthy. Hey, maybe I’ll do that for like, um, another insane podcast that I’ll be on someday.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um, but for now, I’m just like– It is so crazy to me that it’s been a year, Em. What is it like now to be a dog owner? Wait, what would you tell yourself? I’m a terrible interviewer.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: What would you tell yourself a year ago? Like what would you tell your past self?

Em: Um–

Christine: Like, “Hang on. Buckle up”?

Em: Yeah, I don’t know. It– “You’ll, you’ll figure it out.” [laughs] I don’t know. I would–

Christine: [laughs] “You’re on your own”?

Em: ’Cause– I really– I mean, I was, I was in not in a good, a good place when I first got him. I was really overwhelmed, and I was resentful, uh, for the exact reasons why I– how– why I feel about having kids and all stuff like that. I was like, “I love being selfish with my time and going and doing stuff,” and all of a sudden I had this hyperactive puppy that like couldn’t be left alone for a certain amount of time. So I was very much, uh, in a ups– I was not happy with him. Um, I thought he was very cute and like I didn’t mind him like living here until he found another place. But once I got attached to him– I, I forget what the exact moment was, but there was a moment where like we locked eyes the right way–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –for the first time, and I went, “Alright, I can tell you’re gonna be here forever.”

Christine: You know what’s so funny? Like I’m thinking I had such an opposite– Whoa. I’m having a moment. Because I just realized like when I got Gio, there was like no– like the unhinged emotional response, which now I’ve worked on a– through a lot of CPTSD therapy–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –but I didn’t realize at the time, but like my reaction was so like unhinged and like I had– There was no way I was not– like not getting the dog.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And it’s so interesting that like– and then– so then I turned my whole life around to like make the– to make a life for the dog. But it’s so funny that like your version was pro– much healthier arguably of like–

Em: Oh?

Christine: –“Hey, I don’t know if I’m ready for a dog yet,” and then it took time for you to bond. Meanwhile, I saw a little– like a literal tiny-ass thumbnail of Gio–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and we were looking at other dogs on some website, and I saw this thumbnail, and I went, “That’s him. There he is.”

Em: That's crazy.

Christine: And Blaise was like– and he clicked on the wrong dog. And I went, “Ah! Go back. That’s not the right–” And he’s like, “This one?” and I was like, “No!”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And I said, “Click on that one.” And he was this derpy little thing. Oh my god. But I was like, “That’s it. I– There’s no–“ And I– Blaise was like, “This is a– probably not a great idea.” Everybody in my life said, “Plea–” Actually, I didn’t tell anyone in my life ’cause I knew they would say this is a terrible idea.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um, there was no part of my choice that was like good, like, like, like ready to be– except that I was like, “I’m in love with this dog.” So it’s kind of–

Em: I feel like it’s, it’s almost a candid experience for someone in their early 20s to be like, “I’m getting a dog.”

Christine: If– It– Yeah. And it didn’t hit me until recently that it was that. Because like it hit me recently like, “Wow, that was an extremely like pivotal, turbulent, and like emotional time,” and I feel like I– that just occurred to me. So you talking about Gotcha Day and like how it– And think about it. Gio’s ten now, and like you knew him–

Em: Crazy.

Christine: –at his first birthday. So like now you having a– your dog for one year–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It just all feels very, um, full circle, and I’m just– uh, I’m in, I’m in my feels as–

Em: Aww.

Christine: –the millennials used to say.

Em: Well, good. I– It’s– It took a long time, but I, I very much– He’s now my best friend, and, uh, I, I can’t imagine hanging out with anybody else all the time, but–

Christine: Aw, buddy.

Em: –there was that, uh, adjustment period. We, we all know I hate adjustment periods.

Christine: What was it like–

Em: –so.

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah, we all know– Famously you hate being inconvenienced–

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: –and being fucking adjusted in any way aside from a chiropractor.

Em: Not only, not only being inconvenienced, but the inconvenience is now you will forever be inconvenienced. That was a tough one for me. Um–

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, not forever, see? And that’s the thing with dogs and, and human dogs, which I call ba– is what I call babies. ’Cause it’s like, oh, you either get a dog, and it’s like, of course, there’s the emotional aspect of like, “I, I will presumably lose you, you know, someday.” But then with a baby, it’s like, “Oh, you know, this is a fucking lifetime commitment.”

Em: Sure.

Christine: “You are inconvenienced forever.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Oy. He’s, uh– I hope he’s around for, for quite some time, but I– it– it’s been quite a journey–

Christine: He will be around for–

Em: –and everyone at the dog park has been reminding me of that. So, um– [chuckles]

Christine: I heard that he’s like kind of like part parrot, and I think they live to 90, so I think you’re okay.

Em: Yeah. No, very happy to not have a parrot. Um, but it’s been nice. It’s–

Christine: No, I mean your dog is part parrot, so he’s like– he’s gonna live to like at least 90, I’ve heard.

Em: Oh, I like how we had different takes where I was like, “I love him, but I– [sighs] 90 years sounds like a lot.”

Christine: Oh, thank god, no. I’m not gonna wish a bir– a bird upon you.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: That– Talk about being inconvenienced. That’s not what I’m trying to say.

Em: [laughs] Anyway, I’m drinking for little Hankies. And then next month is his b-day–

Christine: Mm. [claps]

Em: –so that’s exciting.

Christine: Wow. This is a big month.

Em: Big month. So that’s why I drink. And then I have something for us for Yappy Hour, which I’ll tell you about later.

Christine: [gasps] Exciting. Okay, great.

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Em’s Story – The Tranquille Sanatorium

Em: Okay. So, uh, thirsty little rats, this is your reminder to drink some water and also take your meds ’cause I did not do that. So we’re all gonna take our meds together. One, two, three. [Em pauses to take their meds.] Excellent.

Christine: Have I said this before? Do you know who s– taught me to swallow pills?

Em: Who?

Christine: Allison.

Em: Really?

Christine: In college.

Em: Oh, that’s fun. What– How did she teach you?

Christine: She was like, “What I do is I take a sip of water first, and then I–“ I don’t know. We just had– We tried different methods, and she helped me get comfortable with swallowing pills ’cause I was like really– like needles and anything medical which now–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –ta– actually next week I’ll talk – maybe – talk about Leona’s current dentist situation.

Em: Oh boy.

Christine: It’s, it’s like not fun. Um, but all that to say, like she– I was so embarrassed in college ’cause I had to take Tylenol or something, and I was like, “I can’t like swallow it.” And she–

Em: What was the reason? You just like couldn’t–

Christine: I was so freaked out about like swallowing something that like whole, I think.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like I still had this idea since I was like a kid that like– and then I would have this like gag reflex and like [makes a retching sound], you know. And then they would like make you practice with M&M’s, and I was like, “I don’t wanna swallow an M&M whole. Like everything in my body is like, ‘Don’t do that.’” So I just really struggled with swallowing pills, and Allison taught me how and she like walked me through it, and it was just so corny, but.

Em: That’s precious.

Christine: Anyway.

Em: No, my, my mom taught me wi–

Christine: Oh, and then she found me on the on the floor of the bathroom that time I took too much Percocet by m– by– not–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: It was by mistake. [chuckles] So, you know, for her it was– [laughs] She really probably didn’t realize–

Em: She locked the fuck in.

Christine: Yeah. Well, she kind of accidentally created a monster if you see what I’m saying.

Em: Oh. [laughs]

Christine: No, no, no, not really.

Em: You locked in. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, I locked in. No, no, no. Um, sorry. Go ahead.

Em: I was just gonna say my, my mom taught me when I was really little ’cause I think she took one look at me and was like, “You’ll be taking pills one day.” And–

Christine: [laughs] “You’ll, you’ll need you’ll need a pill case someday.”

Em: And so we used to play a game when I was like Leona’s age of like–

Christine: A game? [laughs]

Em: –like, “Can you swallow this pea? Can you swallow a piece of corn? Can you–“

Christine: Oh jeez. Oh my god.

Em: I know. In hindsight, it was certainly a choking hazard.

Christine: Like, “Are you gonna choke?” Yeah.

Em: But, uh, she was like, “If I teach you early, maybe, maybe it’ll stick.” And it did stick for me. I, I can’t speak for anyone else, but–

Christine: I mean, I gotta be honest, like I– Leona won’t even ta-take a vitamin, a gummy vitamin. Like, I mean, we, we– she does now, which is literally one of our sponsors, so I’m not gonna get into that right now, but it’s, it’s a real gods–

Em: Oh, that’s ’cause it tastes like candy, I’m sure.

Christine: –it’s a real godsend. But like she has tried other ones that she will not eat– like she– if she has any glimpse of like medicinal–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –adjacent-ness.

Em: That’s why I drink water for– I, I can’t stand and I’ll never understand and I don’t want to the people who can put just a dry fucking pill in their mouth and then drink it down. I have to–

Christine: So that’s how I was taught. And Allison Goforth–

Em: Oof.

Christine: –was the one who said, “You don’t have to do it that way”–

Em: No.

Christine: –and it changed my life.

Em: No, I always take a sip, and then I just drop the kids at the pool. Plop.

Christine: That’s right. That’s right. And Allison taught me that.

Em: And before they–

Christine: Well, she didn’t say “drop the kids–“ Well, maybe she did.

Em: I’m, I’m mid-swallow before they even hit the back– I can’t even tell. I just go “gulp!” as–

Christine: They’re– Yeah. They’re at the– They’re in the whirlpool at that point.

Em: Yes, that’s exactly right. Well, I didn’t know that. I’ll tell Allison you and the pills say hi.

Christine: Aw.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: She'll say, “Not again.”

Em: I, uh, I did not know that. That’s a fun fact, Christine.

Christine: Yeah. Okay, good. I didn’t know if that was one thing that I brought up all the time or never.

Em: I–

Christine: You know how sometimes like I feel like I say something over and over and then–

Em: I don’t know. ’Cause sometimes you say, “Oh, you know how I’m obsessed with the Grinch?” and I go, “What?”

Christine: That’s what I mean. That’s exactly the example. Like sometimes I’m like, “I talk about it all the time”–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and everyone is like, “You literally don’t.” And I’m like, “What?”

Em: I’ve literally never heard it. No.

Christine: [laughs] Okay, go on.

Em: No, you’re good. I, um– Oh, for a second I was like, “What should we talk about?” I’m so stupid. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I was about to say, “Were we at Yappy Hour? Where are we?” I’m, I’m so lost. I couldn’t even find like my own ass right now. I think that’s a–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I don’t think that’s a saying. [laughs] I don’t think that’s a saying.

Em: [laughs] Okay. So I obviously have a story for you today, and it is, uh, a sanatorium.

Christine: Obviously. Yeah.

Em: And this is a Canadian sanatorium. This is the Tranquille Sanatorium.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: Which is–

Christine: Oh, oh?

Em: –spelled like, um, French tranquil.

Christine: Whoa. Spooky.

Em: Tranquille. So in 1907, it was built originally for tuberculosis patients, of course. Uh, I feel like that’s what all sanatoriums started out as.

Christine: Yeah. Now, there’s a difference between sanitarium, right, and sanatorium?

Em: It’s called the sanatorium.

Christine: No, no. But what I mean is I think a sanitarium is–

Em: Oh, oh.

Christine: –like mentally rela– like mental illness, and I think a sanator–

Em: I’m looking it up, don’t worry.

Christine: ‘Cause sanit– Wait. [laughs]

Em: I’m–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: I got you. There– Oh, they’re used interchangeably to mean–

Christine: Oh. [laughs]

Em: –a facility for treating illness.

Christine: Oh, okay, then maybe I don’t know why I think of– why some people think of– like some– Yeah.

Em: While sometimes distinguished, uh, sanatorium is focused on active medical treatment and sanitarium on health spa-like cuper– recuperation. They’re often used synonymously.

Christine: Oh, okay.

Em: Not what I was expecting.

Christine: Yeah. Weird.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Alright.

Em: Sure. Alright. Well, I guess you were right and wrong. [laughs]

Christine: That honestly fits. Thanks.

Em: You’re welcome.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I feel like we’ve had that conversation before and didn’t really get a–

Christine: 100%.

Em: –a, flushed out answer either, so.

Christine: Yep, yep.

Em: So the Tranquille Sanatorium. Uh, it was built in 1907 for tuberculosis patients, and it was built by the British Columbia Anti-Tuberculosis Society.

Christine: [laughs] We are so anti-tuberculosis. Like not to like make, you know, a huge commotion and not to kind of like give a–

Em: Not to make you look like you’re pro-tuberculosis?

Christine: –right? But like to give a really hot take, I’m super anti.

Em: [laughs] Well, they were obviously active in awareness and prevention of tuberculosis. And they ended up leasing out 2,000 acres and bought 600 acres, two separate occasions. Uh, they, they ended up with several thousand acres to build this hospital, and the original 600 that they bought, uh, would be about $2 million today–

Christine: Oh, okay.

Em: –the amount of acreage that they bought for this hospital.

Christine: A good, good amount of land.

Em: Good amount. The land that they bought already had buildings on it. Basically, in the area that they picked, there was two ranchers that lived in the area, and they kind of controlled all the land. And over time, they ended up buying up all their land. It just– person by person, I guess. But when they bought up the land, it already had buildings because those people lived there with their families. And so–

Christine: Oh, I see.

Em: –they agreed that they would use those buildings as makeshift hospitals while the actual one was, was being built, so.

Christine: Okay. Okay.

Em: Fun fact, the original hospital was in just random buildings. Um, the facility ended up being in an area called Kamloops, British Columbia, and that’s because the climate there was top-tier for tuberculosis patients and, uh, it was very isolated so patients wouldn’t infect anybody else. I say it was built near Kamloops because I think originally they were looking at Kamloops specifically, but the locals who lived there were freaked out that they might catch tuberculosis–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and so they made an agreement with this anti-tuberculosis society that you could come to our area and build out your hospital, um, but you have to be a certain distance away from us so we don’t feel like we’re gonna catch it. And so it ended up–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –being just over ten kilometers away from the town. That’s–

Christine: Wow. Okay. Inter–

Em: –the number they agreed on.

Christine: Interesting.

Em: In the first few years, the, uh, sanatorium had about 50 patients and 15 staff, but by the 1950s, or 50 years later, they had over 600 patients and staff there full-time. And this was possible because the hospital did the classic thing that all the tuberculosis wards did at the time: they developed their own self-sustaining community.

Christine: Oy vey, I mean it’s like– you just can’t escape it. It’s all over these utopian– the utopias, you know.

Em: I know. And the, the hospital itself ended up kind of getting– I don’t wanna say an expansion ’cause the hospital itself didn’t grow, but a town grew around the hospital because, since all these nurses and doctors lived in a quarantine area, they couldn’t go home once they got employed here–

Christine: Oh my lord.

Em: –so they ended up building their own town around the hospital.

Christine: Sure. Oh my god. Imagine being those original people, like, “Uhh, I’m glad we put you guys ten kilometers away ’cause now you have an entire like village happening over there,” you know.

Em: You know what? They must have felt so validated being like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –“So you would have been seeping into our community, okay–“

Christine: Like all over.

Em: “–and we would have been a little nervous.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, the area around the hospital ended up growing into 40 additional buildings, four of them were more hospitals. Um, the rest of the 40 buildings were cottages for the hospital staff. They were barns. They were kitchens.

Christine: Oh, wow.

Em: They were laundry facilities. They had their own gym, an auditorium, a firehouse, a school. Um, it was essentially–

Christine: Oh, this is just bound–

Em: –a neighborhood built out of necessity for the people who no longer could leave.

Christine: Y–

Em: I imagine during the tuberculosis pandemic that the doctors and nursing staff were like– like it was like getting shipped off to war. It’s like, “Well, I can’t come back,” and–

Christine: Right, right. I mean, it reminds me of COVID, right? You know, like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –having to like sleep in separate parts of, you know, buildings and houses and– Yeah.

Em: Or being like quarantined and decontaminated and all this–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –before you can even see other people.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: Yeah. It just it feels like–

Christine: Eugh.

Em: –“Well, I’m gonna be over here. I don’t know when I’ll come back.”

Christine: That’s so scary.

Em: “I don’t know if I’ll get sick. I don’t know.” I mean, yeah, it’s very similar to the most recent pandemic, huh?

Christine: Mm. [chuckles] Wouldn’t you know it?

Em: Wouldn’t you know it? All pandemics feel like there’s a through line. Um–

Christine: [sighs] Oh god, remember that episode like people kept referencing where we would like joke about quarantine? There was like this one episode where we joked like for the entire episode about like how silly quarantines were, and then like it got brought up years later during the pandemic. And I literally until now have not said it out loud ’cause I was like, “I can’t even begin to think about that.” But it does make me laugh a little bit that we were like, “Imagine a quarantine.” [laughs]

Em: The odds–

Christine: Like we sounded like such morons when you play it back. [laughs]

Em: You know, it– in our defense, what were the odds that we would have to– [laughs]

Christine: No, like you would never have known. Like nobody said anything when it first released obviously, and then like in 2020, it was like, “Wait a minute, that’s like really didn’t age well.” [laughs]

Em: It horrifies me what else we’ve said that’s not gonna age well.

Christine: I know. I know. Good point. Good point.

Em: So anyway, this, this hospital ended up growing into its own little town with a hospital at its center for the– for all the people who worked there. Uh, amongst all these towns, they also had tunnels underneath each of these–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –or amongst all these buildings, they had tunnels underneath all the buildings–

Christine: Whoa.

Em: –so that way they could transport goods to and from the hospital or to and from the stores. And, um, they ended up also using it to s– bring the bodies back and forth–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –once someone died.

Christine: That was inevitable, I think.

Em: And the classic sanatorium thing with– that has tunnels underground to move bodies around, it was–

Christine: So that it’s like not upsetting the other patients and stuff. Yeah.

Em: To boost morale, so that they didn’t think they were next. Yes.

Christine: Ooh, just creepy.

Em: So the new town ended up being named Tranquille–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –which is how we ended up– or because the sanatorium was Tranquille Sanatorium. So everything just kind of ended up becoming–

Christine: I see.

Em: –named Tranquille. There’s also Tranquille River. Um, anyway. So fun fact, by the way, for a short while, the hospital was actually named the King Edward Memorial Sanatorium because King Edward had just died, I guess.

Christine: [chuckles] And they were like, “We know the perfect thing to honor him.”

Em: And apparently, everyone out there was doing the exact same thing. And so–

Christine: I– Whatever. I guess people do that, like name things after– Yeah, sure.

Em: Yeah. I don’t know what– how–

Christine: Important dead people get to be hospitals, I guess. That does make– that does track, I guess.

Em: I guess so. I mean, I know he was the king, but I’m like, “What did he do for the sanatorium?”, you know?

Christine: Uh, who knows? Maybe he boosted morale.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: [chuckles] They were just like big fans.

Em: I, uh– Well, I guess everybody decided that they were gonna name their facilities King Edward blah-blah, and then it got confusing, so they had to change it back. So there was like this weird little like stumbling moment where it was called the King Edward Hospital, but it was–

Christine: I just can’t. I mean–

Em: –changed it back.

Christine: That’s why you come up with something original, you know?

Em: That’s what I’m saying.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I’m like, just stick with it. God, there wasn’t another Tranquille.

Christine: God, there’s no reason– like don’t– Just wait a minute. Wait a beat.

Em: Just wait. God.

Christine: God.

Em: If you had to name a hospital today, what would you name it?

Christine: Is this a trick? Am I supposed to say “wait a beat”?

Em: No. Theem Schulz? No. Um– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] That’s what I’d name it, for sure. And I’d be like, “Oh, after an important dead person. Oh, wait. I mean–”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um, hm.

Em: I don’t know. I don’t know. I, I, I do–

Christine: Maybe I would call it the Zak Bagans Memorial Hospital, and then it would like draw him–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –like it would like lure him to me finally ’cause I can’t– He like– I can never get a hold of that guy.

Em: You know what? That’s a great tactic to get him on the horn ’cause he’d call and be like, “What is going on?”

Christine: I gotta get him on the horn. I gotta.

Em: Yeah, if you wanted a conversation with him, that would certainly start it.

Christine: I would say– He–

Em: Or with his lawyers, at least.

Christine: His lawyers would say, “Oh, you have to change this. That’s his name,” and I would say, “I need him to prove it to me.”

Em: You know what? For all their hard work, maybe you should name the hospital the Zak Bagans Lawyers Memorial Hospital.

Christine: [laughs] They’ve done more for this hospital than anybody. Okay?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So yeah, I think at least the ward– the turbo– at least the tuberculosis ward.

Em: At least. At least.

Christine: If someone’s gonna get consumption, speaking of old episodes, uh–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –I think that we’ve got his lawyers to thank for that– for their healing.

Em: 100%.

Christine: Yeah. Beautifully said, Em.

Em: Do you know ho– Um, ’cause I know you love this part where, where money gets involved and I have to tell you the– what the cu-current amount would be.

Christine: A little conversion rate? Yeah.

Em: So the patients at this hospital, they were charged $15 a week. Do you know how much that is?

Christine: They were charged $15. Oh, for– to stay there.

Em: Like their medical bills were $15 a week to stay there.

Christine: Oh, okay. And how much that would be today? Like $300.

Em: $530.

Christine: Oh, wow. Okay. Wow. That’s a lot.

Em: Yeah. So then if you just stay– like $60, $60 a month, it–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –it– all of a sudden it’s like, “Oh, it’s like fucking rent.” It’s like tr–

Christine: It’s pretty expensive.

Em: Like LA rent. [chuckles]

Christine: And so are they require– You’re gonna tell me that. I was gonna say, are they required to work?

Em: I am gonna tell you about that.

Christine: Gotcha.

Em: So, uh, they were required to work.

Christine: Mhm, Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, or actually, you know what? I’m not sure yet. We’ll– Let’s figure it out together in a second.

Christine: Okay.

Em: So they were charged $15 a week for treatment, but many of them, um, were able to get help for their medical bills. There was a lot of like places that were trying to f– raise funds for them. But by the 1950s, there was a cure for tuberculosis, um, and so the need for these hospitals tanked, and Tranquille closed for a second, but a year later, it was reopened as a mental hospital.

Christine: [chuckles] It closed for a second. [laughs]

Em: Literally like they closed the doors, and then they went, “Oh, I forgot something in there,” and reopened the doors.

Christine: Okay. And then a year later, sorry, say again, they opened the doors–

Em: They, they opened them– they opened it up as a just mental hospital.

Christine: Okay. So see– but that’s what I’m saying. There’s like a connect– there– I feel like there tends to be a connection with that term, right, and like a me– quote unquote, mental hospital? Like I feel like that–

Em: I feel like you’re–

Christine: –does happen?

Em: I feel like you’re right.

Christine: But maybe I’m just kind of making shit up.

Em: I wonder if it was, I wonder if it was originally like Tranquille Hospital and then it became Tranquille Sanitarium or something. But it, it is called Tranquille Sanatorium throughout.

Christine: You know what I mean though? Like–

Em: I do know what you mean.

Christine: Yeah. Okay.

Em: I’m with you. But–

Christine: Hm.

Em: –nobody else is, I don’t think.

Christine: Don’t be with me. I’m lost. I’m so lost. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Um, so they reopened as a mental hospital because there was– I guess, at other mental facilities, there were–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –a lot of overcrowding. So they–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –were like, “Well, we’ve got an open building all of a sudden. Let’s just bring them on in here.”

Christine: Maybe– Well, maybe that’s why. Maybe they would build these sanatoriums for things like tuberculosis, and then it’s like, “Well, we have a cure, and now we have this large medical facility. So like why not–“

Em: I feel like– Yeah.

Christine: I mean, that does make sense.

Em: I feel like they all turned into either just a different hospital or like a jail. Like something where you just hold people.

Christine: I was gonna say I guess jails also have overcrowding. Yeah, true point. Okay.

Em: Yeah, and they’re all overcrowd– Yeah, there is a–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –quite a similarity here.

Christine: Mm.

Em: On top of it being a mental hospital, apparently it became some sort of pseudo orphanage ’cause a lot of abandoned kids also ended up here.

Christine: Oy. Okay.

Em: Um, the mental hospital operated– I feel like I’ve said this a million times. This is kind of giving like all the, the mining towns, hotels history.

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah, yeah.

Em: I’m so sorry, everybody. But the mental hospital here was under the Kirkbride, uh, belief where Thomas Kirkbride was the guy who created a lot of the– He designed a lot of the mental institutions o-of this time–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –and I’ve talked about him before, but he was the person who believed that what was very therapeutic for mental hospital patients was work.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Or he felt like that was part of their rehabilitation is that they could, uh– Well, I’ll give you more specific. Thomas Kirkbride– If you’ve ever been on one of these tours to a place that used to be an old, um, institution at all, If they call it a Kirkbride building, it’s because it was meant to be like kind of over the top but a lot of windows so all the air could come in, but also it was a self-sustaining community because it was rehabilitative for the patients to work and feel like they were contributing to society.

Christine: So it was supposed to be like very progressive in its–

Em: Very progressive and supposed to like teach them–

Christine: –of its time.

Em: –how to like– It was a lot of occupational therapy–

Christine: Okay, okay.

Em: –before occupational therapy was a thing.

Christine: Right.

Em: Um, so this was that situation. Thomas Kirkbride, uh, his designs or his plans were used in this mental facility, and it was already a self-sustaining community when it was the other type of sanatorium or–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –so they just brought it back. And so this whole town had livestock– or this whole hospital had livestock and gardens and greenhouses and orchards and–

Christine: Jeez.

Em: –all these different farming tasks that patients could perform as part of their therapy. Um, and I– H– At, at, at that point, I think the patients were paying $50 a week instead of $15.

Christine: Okay.

Em: So I’m wondering if they got paid to work or if they were working as part of their therapy and that did not provide any actual money. I would think no.

Christine: Yeah, I feel like that’s a hard line to f– to find, you know, the– to balance between, uh, charging people for occupational therapy–

Em: Char–

Christine: –but also like requiring their work to run the place. Yeah, it feels a little iffy to me.

Em: Yeah, I feel like they probably weren’t getting paid. It’s like if you went to like a physical therapist, they wouldn’t like pay you $10 for doing it afterwards. And then you use that $10 to pay them, and it becomes a circular thing.

Christine: Right. But like also like rolling it– around on a tennis ball isn’t really like helping the community. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] I, I, I assume that they’re not getting paid for the labor. I think that–

Christine: I would agree. I would– It feels like probably not. Why would they be? Yeah.

Em: I agree. So um, this opened in like the late 1950s, and it was open until the 1980s, so for like 30ish years. Because I guess conditions were going down, and they were like, “All right, this building, we just don’t need it anymore.” So it became abandoned for a second again, just a quick moment.

Christine: A second. [laughs]

Em: And then it for a second was a detention center for juvenile delinquents.

Christine: Oy, yeah.

Em: And, uh, then it got bought by this guy who wanted to turn it into a resort.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: I know. And he was born in this area called Padova City, and so he wanted to name it Padova City after his own town. Like just go back to the actual Padova City and leave us alone, you know.

Christine: Or at least call it like New Padova City.

Em: Yeah. New Padova. No?

Christine: Like New York City, but New Padova City.

Em: I see. NPC.

Christine: NPC.

Em: And a few projects, fun fact, have been filmed here. Probably the most famous is scenes from The A-Team, but I think The A-Team the movie, not the TV show, so really not that famous. Um–

Christine: I don’t know either one.

Em: Okay.

Christine: I’m sorry.

Em: Sick.

Christine: Okay, cool.

Em: Uh, [chuckles] and most recently, it is now owned by Tranquille Farm Fresh Produce, and–

Christine: Oh my.

Em: –they at least have leaned into the history of it a little bit and have done tours for people–

Christine: That sounds fake.

Em: Doesn’t it?

Christine: Like total props to them, and I’m gonna like be– like I’m gonna– I– all about it, but like it sounds fake.

Em: Tranquille Farm Fresh. Yeah.

Christine: Like what?

Em: Produce.

Christine: Farm Fresh?

Em: They, uh, they’ve offered tours of the place, uh, historical tours. I think they’ve also done like– They’ve allowed overnight investigations here. They’ve hosted performances here. They’ve hosted an escape room here.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: They had a– like themed Halloween productions here.

Christine: You’ve gotta.

Em: I think they’ve made it into like a jump scare at one point.

Christine: You’ve gotta.

Em: There was one that they actually called– like the theme of the Halloween event was “Dr. Padova’s Haunted Carnival,” so they’re like–

Christine: See, that’s good.

Em: –nodding at the Padova situation.

Christine: Now, that’s really– Docto– And that’s a creepy little name.

Em: Dr. Padova’s Haunted Carnival.

Christine: Has a really good like ring to it.

Em: And they had some other event that al– that Padova’s name was also in. But, um, anyway, so they’re currently there, and I guess it’s constantly– my understanding of this is that it’s constantly up in the air if this will ever get turned into a resort. And for now, it’s just this Farm Fresh Produce place. But it sounds like they’re having a lot of back-and-forth on whether or not the resort will ever be built.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And a lot of locals don’t care for it. They don’t want it. They think it’ll be harmful in a lot of ways, especially because it will be doing even more damage to the history of the indigenous people there.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, but the, the eco–

Christine: What, what do you– Can somebody explain to me – not you, Em – but like what do you mean a resort? Like what are you talking about? Where is this?

Em: I’ll tell you.

Christine: Okay.

Em: So, uh, it’s–

Christine: Remember when I said, “I’m not talking to you,” and then I’m like, “Wait. Oh, oh, now I’m talking–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, you tell me actually, please.

Em: No, you’re good. I was like, literally, it’s my next bullet, so I actually can–

Christine: Oh, fantastic. Okay.

Em: So it would be an “eco-resort,” or it’s called an “agrahood” where it’s like a neighborhood all based on agriculture.

Christine: Don’t do that.

Em: I know.

Christine: Don't do that.

Em: It feels like a rich white person did this.

Christine: Not everything needs to be a portmanteau. You know what I’m saying? And that’s like a– that’s a platform I’m running on.

Em: [chuckles] It’s called apparently “Tranquille on the Lake." Okay. And they’ve got–

Christine: That’s nice, I think.

Em: It’s gonna have– I mean, it sounds like a retirement community or something.

Christine: It does. A little step up from that maybe, like a little like– I don’t know. Yeah, Okay.

Em: Like, like my, my hometown growing up– Sorry, I heard my voice through your microphone just now, and that was such a horrible sound, my own voice.

Christine: What? How did that happen?

Em: I don’t know, but I hope to never do it again. Speak.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Um, so my neighborhood growing up– or my– in my town growing up, there was a neighborhood where like all the country clubbers lived–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and I feel like that’s what Tranquille on the Lake is.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like the subdi– It sounds kind of like a subdivision like for–

Em: Yes.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally.

Em: So um, they apparently would have a winery in the area. They would have–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –uh, like farming tours or something going on. It– I think it would be for country clubby people–

Christine: Right.

Em: –but they could say they live in an eco-friendly resort, but I don’t really believe how eco-friendly it would be. I’m not too sure.

Christine: I mean, but it is in Canada, right? So maybe they do have actual laws about things like this, unlike the US.

Em: Oh, maybe.

Christine: I don’t know.

Em: I ho–

Christine: I’m not sure though. I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna claim that, but, you know, I think here you could definitely get away with saying like, “We’re eco, whatever.” But I don’t know. I don’t know if other countries have, um, different rules on that.

Em: I forgot it was Canadian, and my hope is spiked, so thank you.

Christine: You’re welcome.

Em: Um, but yeah, it’s– that’s– That is as far as we know about the eco-resort, but it– Apparently, millions of dollars were paid a few years ago for this to take off, but then there’s been a lot of yes and no, hot and cold on if it’s ever gonna take.

Christine: Mm.

Em: So right now, it’s just the produce place.

Christine: I imagine there’s, [chuckles] I imagine there’s a lot of like, um, town hall meeting–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –animosity happening.

Em: Agreed. Uh, [chuckles] the– Today, the building is considered one of the most haunted places in Canada.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: Um, and beyond the thousands of patients who came here over 80 years, there was also two cemeteries that were here. One of them was one of the original family cemeteries, and I think that one’s been relocated, but there was also a potter’s field here for all the tuberculosis patients that were unclaimed.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So I’m assuming that’s still on the property, but people have said–

Christine: Yeah, that’s gotta be weird energy, I would think.

Em: It’s gotta be.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, people have said that they’ve seen spirits roaming in the area that is or was the cemetery.

Christine: W-Well, that’s pretty eco-friendly.

Em: That is eco-friendly. Oh my god.

Christine: Reduce, reuse, recycle.

Em: Re-reduce, reuse– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “Reduce, reuse, recycle.”

Christine: Well, you gotta. I love it.

Em: The, uh, the ghosts outside apparently, um– I, I think it has just been like apparitions walking through where they might have been buried, which is fine. Stay exactly where you are. Love that you’re over there. I won’t be there. Um, and then there’s ghosts also, of course, in the tunnel system.

Christine: Ohh-kay.

Em: Becau–

Christine: Wait, is that used for anything–

Em: So–

Christine: –nowadays?

Em: Nowadays, no. The whole place is– or I don’t know. Maybe it’s storage, but I, I don’t think anyone goes in there. I saw a few video clips of it–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and it looks pretty abandoned. Um, but at the time when it was this like thriving self-sustaining community and the staff was going in and out of these tunnels all the time– One of my favorite fun facts about these tunnels is that they also ended up opening up their own shops in the tunnels, and so–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –just to like– It was a space saver, I guess. But there was like a barber shop down there. There was also– yikes, the morgue was down there. Um–

Christine: Was that someone’s small business? [laughs]

Em: [chuckles] Maybe someone’s funeral home. Um, but it, it was– it sounds like it used to be really busy–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –so that would make sense why there’s a lot of activity today. But–

Christine: That’s kind of cool though that it would be like not just people brought bodies down. Like ’cause that reminds me of Waverly Hills, right? Where like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –the body chute or whatever and the tunnels, but here it’s like, “Oh, there’s that, but there’s also like a more jubilant vibe”–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –you know. I don’t know.

Em: Um, so that being said though, the tunnels are said to be some of the most haunted area of the whole thing, but– which would make sense because that’s where you’re carting all the dead bodies as–

Christine: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Em: –you know, one by one. And I, I didn’t even have the number for this, but I’m sure–

Christine: I got–

Em: –a bunch of people died here.

Christine: And I gotta imagine a tunnel is some sort of a portal, gatew–

Em: Sure.

Christine: Like I feel like tunneling a dead body through something is like probably the most symbolic thing you can get, you know?

Em: 100%. Um, people down here hear voices and moaning and screaming and crying–

Christine: Oof.

Em: –and voices talking to each other. They feel intense sadness. Apparently, a lot of people will feel someone rush past them, like bump into them really hard.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, in the buildings, uh, people will see floating lights by the entrances. The lights will turn on and off by themselves. They hear a lot of gurneys squeaking. They hear a lot of crying. Often, people will hear a wo– or will see a woman in ‘50s clothes walking up and down the halls–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and she looks like she’s mourning her child.

Christine: [gasps] Oh no.

Em: And I think they’ve put two and two together because they often see her on what were the pediatric wings.

Christine: Oh no.

Em: So also on these pediatric wings, people hear children giggling. They see f– or hear footsteps running by. People have just heard kids’ voices in general. But there’s also a black– solid black apparition that will peer out of doorways and give you the sense of dread.

Christine: Whoa.

Em: Some–

Christine: What if it gave you this sense of, of–

Em: Glee?

Christine: –exuberance? Yeah. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: It’s like yeah, no shit. [laughs]

Em: That would be– I have yet to experience an original ghost that just makes you wanna laugh, you know?

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like, oh, you make me smile.

Em: Yeah, that’s a great point. I wanna find a ghost who just wants to show you what– just show you love and, and happiness and all the good things in the world. Instead it’s always dread.

Christine: Just like raise, raise the vibes. Yeah, yeah.

Em: Always dread.

Christine: Always dread.

Em: People see figures in the windows. They see people wandering the halls. They see twisting mists–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –that will chase them away.

Christine: Ew.

Em: There’s also twisting mists that appear in photos that you couldn’t see in front of you. There are the spirits of an electrician who died in the basement. There’s a patient named Margaret who was found dead in one of the unused wards that they say–

Christine: Mm. [sighs]

Em: –she now wanders around. One source said that Margaret is now trying to escape, and I’m like, “Relax.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Like she was a, a patient who just died here.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: There’s also the ghost of a nurse who was apparently murdered by a patient here–

Christine: Oh no.

Em: –which I have to assume that was more mental hospital than tuberculosis ward, but I don’t know.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And the most interesting of them all is a nurse who allegedly died here because she contracted tuberculosis when she fell in love with one of the patients.

Christine: Whoa. Okay, now.

Em: Juicy.

Christine: Talk about a haunting. Jeez.

Em: Yeah, that’s like– that’s all the feelings in one: there’s love–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –there’s resentment, there’s illness, there’s grief.

Christine: Oh my goodness.

Em: Oof.

Christine: That’s like a heavy hitter story.

Em: And I like– I mean, it’s alleged enough that there’s no evidence. She could have just gotten tuberculosis ’cause she was a fucking nurse at a tuberculosis ward.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Like without any love. But we had to throw the love thing in there, I guess.

Christine: But where’s the, but where’s the beauty? Where’s the romance in that, Em?

Em: You know, where’s the whimsy?

Christine: Where is it?

Em: The stories of this place being haunted have been passed down, especially through local tow– or through local teenagers who obviously hung out here when it was abandoned and they did the whole like, “Oh, we broke in, and we saw this blah-blah-blah.” That was like– That’s the main reason that this place has any of these haunting stories–

Christine: Right.

Em: –or people who witnessed anything. But because of these stories, the sanatorium got picked up by MTV’s show Fear. I don’t know if you remember that from forever ago.

Christine: I do, but like barely. I was too scared to watch it.

Em: There was also, I think, only like 12 episodes, and then it–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –it didn’t work out. But MTV had a show called Fear, which was basically like a, a ghost hunting show ahead of its time, ahead of time.

Christine: Seriously, ahead of its time for sure.

Em: The episode, for some reason, they changed the name to “Serenity Lake Sanatorium.” I wonder if they didn’t like have the fucking rights to give it its actual name. I don’t know.

Christine: Uh, no. I bet you they were like, “Oh, French? We don’t speak that at MTV.”

Em: Yeah. They were like, “Oh, well, it’s by the Tranquille River, so I guess we call it the Serenity Lake.”

Christine: “Someone look up in the dict– in the translation dictionary.” Yeah.

Em: Yeah. So on MTV’s Fear, this show got traction because of all the rumors swirling around it. It is known as one of the most haunted places in Canada. So MTV went, “Hell yeah, we’re going there.” And I guess, uh, some of the contestants on the show, when they were ghost hunting in this building, they actually heard children in the halls running around upstairs–

Christine: Bye.

Em: –and they started freaking out. However, uh, it’s come across my desk that it’s–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –been heavily–

Christine: Breaking, breaking.

Em: –heavily confirmed that a lot of literal local teenagers were paid in pizza to go make noise upstairs during the– this filming to–

Christine: Paid in pizza, you say?

Em: One of the people who actually wrote an article about this even said that one– her brother was one of the people who was paid to do this.

Christine: I see. I mean, that feels like exactly what would happen on a show like this. Yes.

Em: It was back when MTV and VH1 had those crazy reality shows where like there were no fucking limits.

Christine: Where they would just like make stuff up and be like, “She eats her own toenails on like next–“

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: –and you’re like “What? There’s no way she said that and agreed to it.”

Em: It was during that, that time, and this was, I mean, only like– this was, I think, like two or three episodes in or something. So I think they were trying to really up the ante and make it seem interesting enough so they would get another season.

Christine: Right.

Em: So I think they were just like forcing any story that they could and paying the children anything that they could. But I saw at, at, at least two or three sources, people knew someone or had a sibling where they all remember–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –them going to this building overnight and getting paid.

Christine: So it’s just like well known in town that like–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –that’s how it went. Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Also the show, while they were there, they created storylines that I’ve just never seen anywhere else. Um, like they–

Christine: Like what?

Em: –came up with the story that one of the ghosts here is a doctor’s wife who just couldn’t get over the fact that she died from tuberculosis here. They came up with the storyline–

Christine: Oh my god. So the writers were just like really getting creative.

Em: Oh, they had a storyline about a guy called the “Pig Man.”

Christine: Please.

Em: Like they were just saying anything.

Christine: They were just making stuff up.

Em: They were saying anything. So I say all that to say that the place was only really ever abandoned long enough for teenagers to break in and start saying they saw something there for the shock value. And then MTV came out and did this, and that’s probably what got them an even bigger platform and known as super haunted.

Christine: Right.

Em: But between those two things, that’s kind of where all the rumors would swirl around. Other investigators have actually gone there to try and find something, and the scariest thing that they found, which is fucking scary, um, is that they went into the tunnels and they found a dummy hanging from the rafters.

Christine: Ew.

Em: But they thought it was a real person for a second–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and then they heard screaming, but it was coyotes. But it was clearly like people had left either– either a meaner, distasteful people did that as like a prank for the next people who would come along or maybe it was a Halloween thing that got left up.

Christine: Right, right, right.

Em: Um, but so even people who have gone there to like seriously try to investigate have been like, “Most of it I– I’m not getting that vibe.” I mean, maybe it’s creepy.

Christine: It’s just scary.

Em: Maybe there’s a ghost, but it certainly isn’t that haunted.

Christine: And it’s scary for like a lot of other reasons too.

Em: Right. It’s scary for very legitimate reasons. And–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Be– Actually, perfect segue, because the owner of Tranquille Farm Fresh, who– that doesn’t feel real on its own–

Christine: Mhm.

Em: –the owner actually lives on the property while working there.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And he has said that, um, he thinks a lot of it is false marketing and that he wishes people wouldn’t do that. Um, so this is a quote from him where he says, “Over time the internet has turned an unfounded rumor into an internet ‘truth’ which is effectively disrespecting the thousands of local residents who lived and worked here until” the 1980s. And he said, “Instead of focusing on the fantastic true stories of the site and honoring those who poured lives– their lives into it–“

Christine: Mm.

Em: “–a small group of people are insisting on putting their spin on a story they do not understand nor own.” And–

Christine: Ooh.

Em: –I can see where he’s coming from. However, I did not see him actually deny that it’s haunted.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Um, so maybe two things can be true at once. Maybe he’s like– Maybe the first half of that quote that he like control-alt-deleted was–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –“Yes, there are ghosts, but I really wish we focused on something else.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah. And like also the point of like it’s not their story to like twist and change and, you know.

Em: Sure.

Christine: It's a fair point.

Em: So he clearly wants people to know that he wishes they focused on something else, so I am putting that quote in here for him. Um, but if you take one look at this place, you would assume it’s haunted. And it is on incredibly on a lot of listicles as like one of the most haunted places in Canada. Um, I don’t know how much MTV was the reason for that–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –but, uh, there you have it. That is the Tranquille Sanatorium. And I guess you’re just gonna have to go and find out yourself.

Christine: I guess I’m gonna have to watch MTV later.

Em: Yeah, [chuckles] Aw, you poor thing.

Christine: ’Cause I wanna watch that episode.

Em: It was, uh– I, I would love to visit it myself. I feel like it would be very interesting. I– It is like a, a company ’cause it’s the Tranquille Farm Fresh place–

Christine: Sure.

Em: –so you– I think you have to call in advance to do a tour or they host them at certain times during the year. But there’s no way if we went there, even though I’m saying this whole caveat of like, “I don’t know. It’s– It could be a lot of rumors, and this guy isn’t confirming that they’re a ghost,” I’m saying that, but if we went there, we’d be like, “There’s no doubt in my mind this place is haunted.” Like it looks–

Christine: Oh, yeah. Okay, I see.

Em: It’s a hundred-year-old sanatorium, and it was two different types–

Christine: Oh my–

Em: You know what I mean?

Christine: –word. Oh my word. I’m looking at it. I mean, there are– Like complete with just like stone circles in the like fields, and like there’s this, um– Oh my god. I mean, that– the, the main building, I mean, it really– Like the paint is peeling off in that way that looks–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –like a gho– like a silhouette will appear–

Em: Like a piece of–

Christine: –any moment.

Em: –cheese wasn’t fully sliced all the way through.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Just kind of cur–

Christine: Like that kind of peeling. Oh my gosh, it looks s-spooky as hell, dude.

Em: And to know there were two cemeteries there. It was a tuberculosis ward. It was a mental institution.

Christine: And how many people died, yes.

Em: So many people died there. Um, I mean, so there’s a lot of dark energy there. And I wouldn’t be surprised–

Christine: I love that this is–

Em: As a teenager who broke into a lot of abandoned buildings, I’m telling you that like there’s– I fully believe that they think they saw something or felt something ’cause that would have been creepy as shit in the middle of the night. There's–

Christine: Of course.

Em: So I’m–

Christine: Absolutely.

Em: I don’t know if anyone’s lying or it’s just– I don’t know.

Christine: Who knows? Maybe it’s– Yeah. And like–

Em: It’s up to you.

Christine: –people probably have different experiences, perceptions. I’m just like looking at this. It’s so funny to see the shadow of the Google Street View camera guy like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –that tiny little electric car and then there’s all these gates like fenced off with signs like “no parking,” “no parking.” And you can see that he reached the dead end, and he’s about to go, “beep-beep-beep”–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and like turn back at this–

Em: Like, you know, it’s, it’s a dead end. Yeah.

Christine: And he’s like, “This– I gotta get the fuck out of here. It is spoo-oo-okie.”

Em: Mm. Anyway, that is the Tranquille Sanatorium.

Christine: Good story. Good job. [applause]

Em: Thank you.

Christine: Well, you said you have something for Yappy Hour. I’m gonna go pee real quick.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And then I’m ready to rock and roll if you are.

Em: I am.

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Christine’s Story – Virginia Russell

Christine: Okay, so today, I have a story for you. This, um, came to me via a friend of mine, um– well, a friend of ours sort of – uh, Charli, who is the owner of the lovely dog, Nauti–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –whom we met in Charleston and, uh, I fell in love with and became best friends with. Um, so there was a– The dog, not the person. No offense, Charli.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Uh, it’s, it’s mutual, I’m sure. No, that–

Em: We met the dog a few times at a few book signings, right?

Christine: Yes. Yes. And so she–

Em: It’s a good dog.

Christine: So she– It is– [chuckles] She’s a really good dog. So um, not to brag, but she was in my neighborhood the other day because there was this independent bookstore going on, and, um, my brother was like, “This is the gayest–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “Like your neighborhood has suddenly become so gay,” because it was like all the independent like crafters and like bookstores.

Em: [groans] Love it.

Christine: It was just like really, really awesome. But so Charli and her wife came down with the dog, Nauti, and, um, like we chatted for a few hours, and we hung out, whatever. We did the craft fair, and then they left, and I get a text like an hour later that says, and I quote– Please hold while I pull up my notes. “Oh, also I just told Paige,” that’s the wife, “this in the car, but I forgot to tell you I have a story for you to use if you need something. My aunt was murdered a while ago, and there’s even a Forensic Files episode on it.” And I’m like, “I’ve met you several times now.” Like I feel like–

Em: Wow.

Christine: –that’s shocking information to hear via text after we just spent the afternoon hanging out.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So then link to the Forensic Files episode. So of course, I had to go do like a deep dive–

Em: Of course.

Christine: –and I texted her like, “Are you sure, uh, it’s okay that I cover this? Like it’s your family,” and she goes, “Oh, I didn’t know her.” [laughs]

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: I was like, “Alright.”

Em: Well, party on. Let’s go.

Christine: So she said, um, “Apparently, I was alive when she was murdered, but I was around seven, so I don’t remember it at all.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: Um, and she didn’t really know much about it until, you know, kind of getting older and learning about it. So–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –I’m gonna cover the story because I, of course, watched the Forensic Files episode and then went, “Oh my god, this is quite a tale.” Um, and it’s a good reminder too that like these pe– victim– like victims are people–

Em: Yeah. I know. It sounds–

Christine: –you know.

Em: It sounds like so silly and like–

Christine: You know what I mean? Like it’s cliche, right? But–

Em: It sounds douchey to be like, “We should empathize?”

Christine: I know.

Em: But like it is, it is a good reminder that people that listen to our show could very easily be related to these people.

Christine: It– Like this is their aunt, you know, or something.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It’s just– It’s a very sobering reminder sometimes. Um, and so yeah, that’s what I’m gonna cover: the story of Virginia Russell. Okay. And this is a tale full of red herrings. And–

Em: Ooh.

Christine: –I just– I love a red herring. So let’s get into it.

Em: For your story, I’m gonna light a candle actually.

Christine: Oh, lovely.

Em: Just to– I need the, I need the mood to be right.

Christine: Yeah. We–

Em: Would you like to, would you like to smell it?

[Em holds the candle up to the camera.]

Christine: Oh, delightful.

Em: What did it smell like to you, Miss Psychic?

Christine: Hints of some sort of tobacco or, uh, leather amber, some sort of musky smell.

Em: The glass is amber. You’re that close.

Christine: Oh, that’s where that came from.

Em: Mango and salt. That’s okay.

Christine: Well, shit. Okay. Yep.

Em: It’s–

Christine: Not even a little bit.

Em: It’s delightful if anybody needs a, a new candle. This was from World Market, and–

Christine: Oh, wait. I was– Is it pink? Wait, which one is it?

Em: Mango and pink salt.

Christine: Oh my god, that’s so funny. My brother and I were wandering around there the other day, and we smelled every single fucking candle and like could not find one we both liked.

Em: Mango and pink salt. It’s beyond. So enjoy.

Christine: Okay, I’m gonna try that next.

Em: And I am ready for you to, um, to tickle the, tickle the eardrums, as you say.

Christine: As I've never said. So here is the story of Virginia Russell, um, unfortunately the story of Charli’s aunt. So we’ve got a story here full of red herrings today. I know that Forensic Files likes to really like ham up the, the red herrings, but it’s true. There are quite a few. So we’re gonna get into it. This takes place in Columbia, South Carolina. Um, Virginia, one night, was driving her husband. I, I don’t know if he was her husband or partner, but either way, um, she was driving him, and something happened. Uh, the car was in an accident. It flipped eight times. Both she and her husband were ejected from the vehicle.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Um, and unfortunately, Rodney was killed, and Virginia was rushed to the hospital and survived. Um, she had a blood alcohol level of 0.16, which is almost twice the legal limit. So because of that she kind of had this– I wanted to say double whammy, but it’s like a triple whammy of like you not only have been like gravely injured, you also are grieving the loss of your partner–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and you are now going to prison because you’re at fault for it.

Em: I–

Christine: It’s just–

Em: Like it’s the, it’s the end of your, your sanity.

Christine: It’s just everything. Yeah, it’s everything all at once. And, um, you know, this obviously had a very, very, uh, profound impact on her. Uh, when she was released from prison, she told her family that she had found work cleaning houses, and so they were happy with her. They were trying to help her get on– get back on her feet. Um, and one evening while she was with her family, she got a message on her pager at 8:54 p.m., and she told her family, “Hey, I’ve been, um, called to go clean. I have a house cleaning to do. Um, goodbye.” They said, “We love you. See you later,” and that was the last time they ever saw her.

Em: Mm. [sighs]

Christine: So early the next morning, uh, a man walking his dog finds a woman’s body near an athletic field near Rosewood, South Carolina. And police, of course, are called, and they take a look, and it turns out the victim had been shot three times–

Em: [sucks in a breath]

Christine: –execution style in the head.

Em: Oh. Oh my god. Okay.

Christine: But they only found two shell casings nearby. They fingerprinted the victim and identified her tragically as Virginia Russell. And she had only been out of prison for two months at this point–

Em: Mm. [sighs]

Christine: –so barely back, back in her life.

Em: How long was she in prison for?

Christine: Um, it was not a very long time. I do not have the exact stats.

Em: Okay.

Christine: I would say maybe like 18 months, maybe. Something like that.

Em: And it was for like involuntary manslaughter or something like that?

Christine: [sighs] It was something in that vein, yes. Yeah.

Em: Okay.

Christine: For vehicular, you know, manslaughter, something like that, I believe.

Em: Sure.

Christine: I believe. This is all, uh–

Em: Yeah. We don’t know.

Christine: –my, my attempt at remembering. Um, okay. So they found the shell casings. They identified her as Virginia Russell. She’d only been out for two months. She was missing her right shoe. Um, there was– O-On the foot that was missing the shoe, there was no dirt or debris, um, on the, on the foot. So they thought like, “Well, that’s weird. She probably didn’t walk out here, you know. She– Her, her foot would be dirty.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, but her stockings further up had been ripped, and she had scrapes on her knees.

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: So what they kind of determined was that she may have been shot once elsewhere and then dragged, and that’s why her feet would have been clean, but the knees of her–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Yeah. It’s horrible. It’s horrible.

Em: Oh my god

Christine: It’s horrible. It’s horrible. It’s horrible. So dragged and then shot two more times, resulting in the body being there and the two shell casings nearby. They did find one single hair, but unfortunately, it didn’t have, um, the root on it, and back then hair analysis was very early on, and they were not able to use that–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –to, um, you know, pinpoint any suspect. They did also find at the crime scene two empty beer bottles, and these beer bottles were about 20 feet from her body. So they were not sure if this was just trash from somebody who’d been in the field before or if this–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –was related, which has gotta be confusing, like adding an extra layer of confusion to the whole thing. There was no sign of sexual assault. Um, two purses were found near her body, um, both belonging to her, but they were empty of virtually everything but maybe a few coins.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And so the– like one of the early on motives seemed to be robbery. So now, of course, they start looking into Virginia’s life. And when they talk to her family, who’s obviously just horrified at this news, um, they tell– the family tells police, “Oh, she cleans houses for a living.” And after some digging, police find out she’s not cleaning houses. She is working as a sex worker and, you know, didn’t feel comfortable telling her family that for whatever reason–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –and was using the pager. Um, at the time, the terminology to be more specific was a call girl. Um, you know, you– It was– It’s considered a m– like as if there’s a– if there’s like a hierarchy within–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –it’s sort of like, oh, you’re, you’re being summoned, like you’re, you’re being called personally, you know, somewhere.

Em: Yeah. Like you’re, um– It’s more like how they would say like there was the– like a prostitute and then an escort. Like it was like–

Christine: Right, right, right. If– It’s, it’s meant to be a little more high class in some like–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –bizarre regard. Yeah. And so she, you know, was considered a call girl, and she had a literal pager. Uh, and so she would get paged and, [chuckles] you know, whatever company or higher-up she worked for would basically summon her, give her the address, and she would be off to the location and get paid.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And so, you know, they tell her family that, and, of course, that is a blow to them as well. Um, you know, it’s not easy to find work, especially after a felony conviction, okay.

Em: Sure, yeah.

Christine: Like I can’t– I, I can’t blame her for that. And also this means, unfortunately, there’s a long list of suspects now, right? Like if she’s been meeting with strangers, there could be a dozen people.

Em: How– Yeah.

Christine: We–

Em: How many, how many clients has she had?

Christine: Yeah. Right, exactly. So they do find her car in an abandoned parking lot two miles from her body. Uh, there is a single shell casing inside the car. So now they’re thinking, “Okay, she was shot in the car and then dragged to the second location.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: They really– I gotta give a warning if anybody does watch the Forensic Files, and there are other shows about this story, but, um, The Forensic Files I can speak to, uh, shows some very, very graphic footage, um, of the, of the car and– a-as a crime scene, so just a warning there, um, very gruesome. There was a lot of blood. On the floorboard, they found, uh, another clue. There was a six-pack carton of Michelob Light with only one full beer bottle left in the carton.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So now they’re thinking, “Well, okay. We’ve got one here, two at the crime– in the field–“

Em: Oh, was it the same type of beer? Okay.

Christine: I forgot to mention that the, the fie– the beer, uh, in the– on the field next to her body was also Michelob Light. And so they’re thinking, “Well, this is, you know, an interesting connection. Of course, it’s a very mainstream beer, so it doesn’t necessarily mean anything yet, but it’s definitely worth noting.”

Em: But so the thought now is that they were in her car first? Is that what we’re thinking?

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: That– Okay.

Christine: Mm-hmm. Uh, or at least at some point that perhaps the same person was with her, you know, in the vehicle, at the field–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –uh, and would have had been drinking– would have been drinking these beers. So in addition to the beer carton, uh, on the floor, they also found her shoe on the floorboard, the one that had been missing from her body when they found her. And–

Em: Well, that kind of confirms it, I think, for me. Right?

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was very clear that she had been shot in-inside the car. I think the beer was just sort of a clue as to like who could have s– done this moreso. Like–

Em: I see.

Christine: –who– like–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –the beer being in the car was a clue that the beer at the crime s– the other crime scene was relevant–

Em: I see. Okay.

Christine: –that it wasn’t just there by, by random– by happenstance, you know, that like it could very well be that this beer left behind was also the perpetrator’s. Um, and so that’s kind of why they’re taking note of that. So they decide, “Well, obviously, we have to figure out who she was meeting that night if she’s a, quote unquote, ‘call girl.’” So they figured out who paged her. And, um, she had gotten a page from a man named Justin Bullard. And this guy– It feels like this is the most like Forensic Files slash like SVU criminal trope ever, but he owns an aquarium cleaning business.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And I don’t know. I think it’s only because there was an episode of SVU that Patrick Stump, uh, played the villain in, and he was– he owned like an aquarium shop, and I was like, “What a strange like job title to give a villain, but I guess–“

Em: Sure. I–

Christine: “–here we go.”

Em: I guess they do it all, don’t they?

Christine: [chuckles] I guess they’re jack of all trades. So she had gotten a page from this guy, Justin Bullard. Now, he owned an aquarium cleaning business. Um, he denied any involvement in the murder. He, for, for what it’s worth, had no criminal history–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –um, but his alibi was being home alone. And I love that they like interviewed this retired detective who’s like this old school guy, and he’s like, “His alibi was being home alone. And the problem with that was him being home alone.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I was like, “Thank you so much.” [laughs]

Em: Thank you so much. Okay.

Christine: Uh, and so they’re looking around his apartment. They also find that in his phone book, there are several pages ripped out, and those pages were all escort services.

Em: I see.

Christine: They also found a pair of his boots that showed slight discoloration and had been stained with high impact, which is also called high velocity, blood spatter.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Um, now blood spatter analysis doesn’t necessarily hold as much weight as it used to, but like this is blood found all over his shoes, and the DNA analysis of that proved that it was, uh, Virginia’s blood on his shoes, so pretty damning.

Em: Sure.

Christine: They test his handgun, which he also owns and happens to see– be the same caliber as the murder weapon, and wouldn’t you know it, they’re the same gun.

Em: Hm.

Christine: So they’ve got what they think is a slam dunk. Um, his boots have her blood on them. The weapon is the same. He was the last person to page her. Uh, but Bullard said, “Oh, nope, not me. It was not me.” He had a theory, though. He said, “Someone could have stolen all of my belongings, committed–“

Em: Uh, okay.

Christine: “–committed the crime, and then returned all my belongings.” And they said, “Well, isn’t that just patently ridiculous?”

Em: I just don’t [sighs] buy that one.

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Christine: So he– they said, “Okay, well, le-let’s humor him for a minute. If that were the case, who do you think would have done this very mischievous, horrific thing?” And he goes, “Oh, well, maybe it was my friend. He’s living with me right now. Um, because he didn’t pay the electric bills, so the power was shut off at his own place, and so I gave him a place to stay.” Now, here’s where things get weird. Meanwhile, as this is all going on, this guy’s trying to defend himself, the prosecutor is researching similar cases in recent times, and they encounter a story of a woman in the area who had a very similar experience who was also identified as a “call girl.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: This woman had gone to her client’s apartment and had noted that it was very dark. There were only candles lit. She felt a little uneasy. And then the man, presumably the tenant of this apartment, pulled a knife and demanded she hand him cash. Apparently, she handed over a couple hundred bucks that she had on her, um, and he told her, “Run, and don’t look back.”

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Yes. And so she had reported this, um, and when police looked into it, they find that the tenant of the apartment was a man named Roy Beck. And when they showed her photos– And again, this is another woman that– this occurred before Virginia’s murder. This was a woman who had–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –survived her attack. So when they had given her a photo lineup, um, she pointed out this man, Roy Beck, who lived in the apartment, said, “That’s the man.” So Roy Beck. He also looked nothing like this Bullard guy. But when they took one little slightly closer look at Roy Beck, they found the darndest thing.

Em: Hm?

Christine: Roy Beck was the friend Justin Bullard said was living with him at the time of the murder.

Em: Ohh. Well, that’ll do it.

Christine: Remember his electricity went out?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: ’Cause he didn’t pay the bills?

Em: Yes. Okay.

Christine: A dark apartment full of candles? So now two people of interest here who could have done this live in the same fucking apartment, which also means that like even though they’re this other guy’s boots, presumably he could be literally right that like his roommate/friend like took them and put them back in the closet.

Em: Yeah. And I–

Christine: Like it sounds insane when you first say it, and then it’s like, “Oh, well, if you have someone living with you who does shit like this–“

Em: Right.

Christine: “–murders people.”

Em: It does sound like– If, if Justin is telling the truth, it sounds like he didn’t even know his friend would have that in him because he didn’t even–

Christine: No.

Em: –accuse his friend. He was like, “Someone must have stolen all of my stuff and put it exactly back.” [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, and they’re like, “Well, who?” And it’s like, “Hm, only one person I can think of, the guy with a key to my house–“

Em: Right, right, right.

Christine: “–to my apartment.” So yeah, the boots are his, the gun is his, but this other guy also has access to all these items and has attacked a sex worker in the past. So it’s like, uh, Jesus, the lights are out, the power’s out, it’s all connecting. Um, now police go into the apartment of Roy Beck, the one with no electricity. Um, and what do they find? They find three empty Michelob Light beer bottles.

Em: Ding, ding, ding. That’ll do it.

Christine: Ding fucking ding. So th– DNA testing did exist, but they– it wasn’t good enough at the time to get a saliva sample off of any of the beer bottles. And so that was kind of a blow. But instead, they did this thing called superglue fuming, which is–

Em: Huh?

Christine: –crazy.

Em: Oh. Is that just like lighting it on fire and huffing the fumes? Is that it?

Christine: [laughs] No.

Em: [chuckles] What’s superglue–

Christine: So sorry. Um, like at the lab, like–

Em: Are we talking about the police? Oh, goddamnit. The police.

Christine: Yeah, yeah. At the lab, yeah.

Em: Okay. I thought you– Sorry.

Christine: They just getting– they’re doing whippets in the fucking DNA lab, um–

Em: You know, I thought I missed something. I was like, “Are– Is she talking about the– what they must have been up to and th–“ [laughs]

Christine: Yeah. I did realize you switched contexts really quickly ’cause I mean it does sound really crazy, but–

Em: I was just imagining like, “Oh, their electricity is out. What are they gonna do? Huff some glue.”

Christine: Right.

Em: Yeah, okay.

Christine: What else would you do? Superglue vapori– vapors. Uh, so–

Em: Sorry. Okay, the lab– the, the, the people against them are doing some superglue fuming.

Christine: There’s people testing for evidence. Essentially, they do this thing where they like heat glue up to the point that it vaporizes, and then it sticks to a surface, even a non-porous surface like plastic or what have you, to– and it, and it, and it, uh, turns into a white color and un– when it touches a fingerprint. So any–

Em: Ohh.

Christine: –latent finger or palm prints that are on a non-porous surface, or in this case it was a glass bottle, it’ll turn into a white solid upon contact, and then you can like find the– I mean, it’s really cool.

Em: I had–

Christine: Pretty neat. Pretty neat stuff.

Em: Who was the person who cr– Someone who was huffing glue was the first person who created that–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and they went, “You’re not gonna believe this. I think I discovered fingerprint DNA.”

Christine: Talk about a rags to riches story. Wow, wow.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That’s powerful. Um, so they did find a partial palm print, but weirdly it did not match any three of these people. So they’re feeling like totally at a loss here.

Em: Fuck.

Christine: Uh, yeah, it’s pretty crazy. So the prosecutor was like, “We gotta stick to these beer bottles though. There’s something here. Like what are the odds that all these bottles–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “–showed up? You know, like we have to connect these.”

Em: In all these places.

Christine: So, of course, now Forensic Files spends like, I don’t know how long, like ten full minutes over-explaining the concept of like a serial number on a–

Em: Well, I bet it was that same older guy earlier who was like, “The problem with him being home alone is that he’s home alone.”

Christine: Oh, yeah. [laughs] I think everybody had that exact same attitude. It was like, “So here’s a beer bottle. And this part’s called a label.” And I was like, “Really?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Are we gonna do this? Are we really gonna do this? Okay.”

Em: You know what? Sometimes you need something explained like you’re five. And–

Christine: I mean, fair.

Em: –they, they handled it.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, and I sure– they sure did. Uh, so labels, the beer labels all have a “born on” date. And the born on date of this beer bottle was 22 October 96, then it says WF58. W is the geographic code for Williamsburg, Virginia, fun fact.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Uh, F is the assembly line that the bottling took place on, and then, of course, 58 is the number of the bottle.

Em: Cool.

Christine: And then in the most complex way possible, they can explain to me like I’m five the concept of consecutive numbers and–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –the odds, uh, in a billion of like the same consecutive numbers appearing and– Whatever. Okay.

Em: Sure.

Christine: Yeah, we get it. It’s his beer. Okay, we get it. It’s his beer. It’s his beer. Oh my god. Okay, we knew that.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: We knew that already. But anyway, it is, for sure. So as it turns out, all these beers came from the same six-pack. And as it also turns out, this Roy Beck character, apparently, his motive was cash. He wanted– He was desperate for cash to feed his addiction to crack cocaine. And he had, uh, first called this escort line to request someone come to his home, had attacked that woman with a knife, gotten a few hundred dollars. Um, but then when, you know, he didn’t pay his power bills and had to move out into Justin Bullard’s home, um, he used his belongings to set– he used James, uh, Justin’s belongings, excuse me, to set up the, the meeting with the next sex worker in an attempt to cover his tracks, which almost worked, right? Like he–

Em: Yeah, it really did almost work.

Christine: Yeah, he did really throw his buddy under the bus. Um–

Em: I wonder if they were close or they just roomed together.

Christine: I mean, clearly they couldn’t have been that close. I think Justin was just like, “Oh, I’m a nice guy, and I let this guy stay with me on the couch. I–”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: You know, I don’t, I don’t think it went much further than that ’cause this guy seems like a real scumbag, you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, I mean, not that I know much about Justin. He could be a scumbag too. I have no clue.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: But he at least–

Em: Justin luckily is flying low right now because–

Christine: I know. I was gonna say at least he got out of here unscathed, so–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –I can’t really tell you. So investigators theorized that Roy and Virginia had actually met before.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And I’ll tell you why. So he basically took all the stuff from, uh, Justin’s house, got into Virginia’s car after like calling her from Justin’s pager. Um, they drove around somewhere secluded, had a beer presumably, threw them out the window – was how they ended, ended up in that area. Now, their theory as to why they’d met before is that, you know, he knew he had to kill her. He, he couldn’t just rob her, right? Like he knew this woman would have known who he was. That’s the theory. And so they believe he shot her right there in the car, uh, you know, dragged her body out into the road, shot her two more times, uh, took the cash from the two purses she had with her–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –drove her car two miles away to dump it, and then returned to Bullard’s apartment, and put his boots back, put his, you know, put his stuff back. Um, but the beer, the beer tied them all back to, uh, to the murder site, which is just crazy. Like thank god, you know–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –for that. Um, but it did place him at all three crime scenes. And it’s kind of scary how they could have gotten the wrong guy because it was– I mean, you see blood on a guy’s boots in his closet, it’s like, hello.

Em: I mean, Justin was probably freaking out being like–

Christine: I hope–

Em: –“What the fuck is–“ I mean, as you know–

Christine: Seriously.

Em: –terrified, terrified of the, the concept of being, uh, framed and going to jail.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I– As everyone is, but it’s first– like I– it’s a pervasive fear of mine.

Christine: I don’t know that everyone is.

Em: No?

Christine: No.

Em: I’m always scared of it.

Christine: I don’t know that everyone is to the degree that you seem to be. [laughs]

Em: I don’t know what my deal– I think I just watch so much Law and Order and so much To Catch a Predator–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –that I’m just like constantly seeing people going to jail, and I’m like, “Hope that’s not me. Hope that’s not me.” And I don’t know why. I’m just sitting here–

Christine: I don’t think it’ll– I don’t think it will be.

Em: –like drinking my fucking juice boxes.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Like I’m not doing anything.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But horrifies me. And the idea of like, “Oh, there’s blood on my boot. And that’s certainly something I can’t explain away. I don’t know.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I– Justin must been freaking out.

Christine: “Someone could have borrowed them and put them back” is a crazy thing to say to the police when you have blood on your boots.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like, it really is.

Em: And he meant it.

Christine: I mean, and, and it was tr– Right, it was true. Like but it really– it could have gone so bad if none of this beer and all this had happened, you know. I mean, it’s really frightening.

Em: After this, Justin certainly shares the same fear I do. I’ll tell you that.

Christine: I would hope he at least doesn’t let fucking scumbags sleep on his couch anymore, you know.

Em: Yeah, he had– he learned a lot from this experience.

Christine: Get a like be– some better boundaries maybe.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Um, but yeah, that’s the story of Virginia Russell. And like I said earlier, I mean, it’s sort of just a reminder that like even an episode of Forensic Files, which is the kind of show that’s always on at like a hotel or, you know, when I’m folding laundry or something, it’s like that’s somebody’s aunt. Like that’s your– that’s my friend’s aunt, you know?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It’s just like a very s– like, um, stark reminder sometimes. And especially when it comes to cases about sex workers where, you know, they’re kind of, um, treated with less dignity anyway, like it’s–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –it’s easy to kind of just gloss over.

Em: Of course it’s easy to– Yeah.

Christine: Blur past. Um, so I wanna thank Charli for sending me that and letting me cover it. That was very, um–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –you know, uh, kind of you, and I know you don’t remember, but I’m sorry to your family that that happened. That’s very tragic, obviously. And I’m glad that they got the right guy behind bars, you know.

Em: Yeah. I, uh– It reminds me a lot– the mo– the– our personal moral of the story being, you know, everyone’s related to– all those people that are victims are related to somebody.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. They’re people.

Em: It reminds me of that, um, that TV show that– it was forever ago, but every episode was a different person talking about a family member where something tragic happened to them, but it was like the D.C. sniper– like it was like his daughter was being interviewed–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and then the next ep– Have you not heard about this?

Christine: I don’t know.

Em: It was a long time ago, but every episode someone was getting interviewed because they were a relative–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –of some notorious killer.

Christine: Wow.

Em: And it was like, “How did this change your life? What–“

Christine: Right.

Em: “Did you see the signs?” And it was– it– I thought it was r–

Christine: This feels like a Nancy Grace– not Nancy Grace. Um, feels like a, like a Barbara Walters special or something.

Em: It should have been. It was just a, a TV show, but I think it only ran for one season ’cause people got so uncomfortable watching people talk about that stuff.

Christine: Yeah, I bet you– I bet it’s uncomfortable. I’ve seen, um, like an interview with, um, the sister of– It was one of the, you know, a shoot– I hate to say one of the shooters, but, you know, one of the more recent shootings–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and she was the, um, sister of that, of that shooter. It may have been actually the Charlie Kirk a-assassination.

Em: Oh, wow.

Christine: I’m not sure. I don’t remember the details, but I remember even in the comments of that– about the article, people were like losing their absolute minds about like whether or not– just debating–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and I don’t really where I stand. I haven’t put enough thought into it, but like– or research into it, but just the thought of like, “Does she deserve a platform? And like–“

Em: Mm.

Christine: “–does–“ It– It’s just a lot of ethical quandaries there, I think.

Em: Yeah. I, um, I was– When I would watch that show – I shouldn’t have been watching it. I was way too young – but I remember thinking like, “Oh, I really like this concept–“

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “–but it’s gotta be really hard for everyone involved: the interviewer, the interviewee, us watching it. Like, it’s–“

Christine: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Em: It was before the true crime craze. I think today it would probably do well. But–

Christine: Oh, I’m sure. Like th– I think they do– Yeah. I wonder if there’s any sort of– any version of that nowadays, um–

Em: It– On a lighter note, just to end it, what– I– As someone who has watched Law and Order: SVU front to back a thousand times, where the fuck was Patrick Stump? What episode?

Christine: I swear he was in an episode. Um–

Em: I just don’t know what he looks like.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: So I just don’t know.

Christine: [unintelligible] LOL and Order. LOL and Order.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Okay. He was Marty Dressler.

Em: [gasps]

Christine: You know who that is?

Em: I feel like– I– It’s, it’s sad, Christine, how much Law and Order I watch. It was a–

Christine: “A cunning IT technician and kidnapping mastermind,” so maybe he wasn’t an aquarium owner. I just have this weird memory of him like having an aquarium in the role, and I was like, “What a–“ I was like, “They would give him an aquarium.” I don’t know. Maybe I’m inventing that.

Em: No. Is– Was it Law and Order: SVU? I don’t think it was Law and Order: SVU.

Christine: Oh, yeah, it was.

Em: Was it?

Christine: Oh, wait. Maybe not.

Em: Maybe I’m mixing him up with someone else?

Christine: Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not.

Em: I don’t know. I’ll go watch it now, now that I know who I’m looking for.

Christine: No, don’t look for him. It’s embar– He– Listen, at that point in my–

Em: Why?

Christine: ’Cause, you know, it wasn’t his cutest era. Let’s put it that way.

Em: I see. Okay. So if I look at him, I’ll go–

Christine: It was Law and Order. It was not Law and Order–

Em: It was not SVU.

Christine: Wait. I don’t know. What's the difference? What’s “mothership”? What’s happening?

Em: There’s a lot of Law and Orders. SVU is the only one that’s still around though. SVU is the last surviving, I think. And then there was Law and Order: Criminal Intent that just got cancelled.

Christine: Well, but this one says it’s the original.

Em: Okay. So it’s not SVU.

Christine: Oh, okay. Never mind.

Em: There’s a lot of them. It’s, uh, like its own–

Christine: Cinematic?

Em: –Marvel Cinematic Universe. Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: It really is because they’ll, they’ll sometimes do like crossovers, and it’s like, “Oh, Olivia Benson is working with this person today and–”

Christine: Ohh. Oh, I do like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Em: Especially Law and Order: Criminal Intent because that was Elliot Stabler’s spin-off–

Christine: Oh, that’s right.

Em: –and then he would often come back on SVU, and she–

Christine: Oh, that’s right.

Em: It was a whole thing.

Christine: Okay, okay.

Em: Um, okay. Well, I’ll go watch that – again, probably. And–

Christine: I think he works at a pet shop. Like I feel like there’s something there.

Em: I’ll let you know.

Christine: Correct me if I’m wrong please.

Em: [laughs] Uh, well, thank you, everybody, for listening, and, uh, happy Gotcha Day to Hank, and, uh, congratulations, Patrick Stump, for being on an episode forever ago.

Christine: Please listen to what guitarist Joe Trohman of Fall Out Boy fame said when they asked for a quote about Patrick being in an episode of Law and Order. “‘It’s cool,’ he said. ‘They chose him because, well, look at him–’”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–Joe Trohman laughed, ‘looking all sweet and looking all nice, but he’s a real deal creep underneath those glasses.’” [laughs]

Em: Jesus. [laughs]

Christine: That’s not nice.

Em: Well, I’ll let you know how big of a creep he is. I have a feeling–

Christine: He’s a big creep.

Em: I feel like he’s gotta be a killer. I feel like no one guests on Law and Order to not be the villain.

Christine: He’s a big fucking creep in that show, in that episode.

Em: Thank you, everybody, and we’ll see you next week. And–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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