E482 A Haunted Coffee and a Propaganda Theatre - featuring That's Pretty Dark

TOPICS: TALES FROM ST. HELENS, OREGON INCLUDING THE KLONDIKE TAVERN, HALLOWEENTOWN

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It's episode 482 and we're joined by our new ParaPods Network besties Kalyn and Christian from the podcast, That's Pretty Dark! First Em tells us some spooky tales from St. Helens, Oregon including the Klondike Tavern. Then we hand the reigns over to Kalyn and Christian to tell us all about a formative movie for Em that was filmed in St. Helens... Halloweentown! Don't miss this deep dive into nostalgia with surprisingly prescient allegories. Let's just say, it still holds up. And always remember to BE the haunted coffee you want to see in the world... and that's why we drink!

Check out That's Pretty Dark podcast on all major listening platforms as they deep dive into the media that scared us as children and still haunts us (in all the best ways) today!

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Transcript

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[intro music]

Christine: I am so excited to now officially start the podcast and–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: –welcome our two wonderful guests.

Christian: Let’s do it.

Christine: We have Christian and Kalyn here from That’s Pretty Dark. Um, we’re so happy to have you here. I have actually not met either of you officially, even E-met, um–

Kalyn: Not until right now.

Christine: I’ve–

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: –weirdly talked about you–

Kalyn: Fated–

Christine: –when you’ve come up and I’ve–

Kalyn: –on the Aries stellium.

Christine: That’s right. Thank you.

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christine: I knew, I knew we’d be friends, but I have talked about you in that I’ve mentioned you and said, “Oh, yeah. I haven’t met them.” Um–

Christian: [laughs]

Em: I’ve met Kalyn, so nice to meet you, Christian.

Kalyn: Believe it or not, we’ve done the same.

Christian: That’s my, that’s my favorite way to know a person is like, “Yeah, you know, they– We’ve, mm, never met.”

Kalyn: “I should know them.”

Christine: Yeah. Well, your story precedes you, you know what I mean?

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: Like you have a reputation.

Christian: : “I know of them.” Sure.

Kalyn: Mm.

Christine: Yeah. I think that’s actually kind of a superpower. So, anyway, we’re so happy to have you on the show. Welcome. Um, and–

Christian: Thank you.

Christine: –yeah, Em, Em and Kalyn have been on a, a speed date, right?

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: We have.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Our only capacity knowing each other is when we were dating briefly–

Em: Ahh!

Kalyn: –for 15 minutes or so. [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Em: And it was a great, a great–

Kalyn: It was so fun.

Em: Honestly one of the best dates I’ve ever been on, so.

Christine: Aw.

Kalyn: Yeah, same.

Christine: Whoa!

Christian: And–

Kalyn: Truly, truly.

Christian: But neither of you gave each other a ride home. Wasn’t that where it ended up?

Em: Not a ride home–

Kalyn: Also true.

Christian: Or it’s just like, “No, thanks”?

Em: –but Kalyn did–

Kalyn: It wasn't a ride home kinda vibe.

Em: No, no, no, no. But Kalyn did, um, send me some lovely stickers, and they are officially now the stickers that ended my sticker book.

Christine: Aww.

Christian: Yes!

Kalyn: Closed the chapter.

Christine: The final chapter.

Kalyn: Oh, that makes me so happy.

Christine: Wait, you know what? I remember that question of, “Would you give the other person a ride?” And I was with Taylar of Creeps and Crimes, and it ended up that we were both trying to give each other a ride, and we accidentally like swapped cities or something–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and then it turned out–

Kalyn: You’ll be where she is; she’ll be where you are and then–

Christine: Yeah, exactly. We switched places, and then Eva ended up coming in and saying, “I’ll give both of you a ride.” So we kind of just like–

Em: Ha–

Christine: –like botched our way into a ride from Eva.

Christian: That works out.

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: Beautiful.

Kalyn: I like that. I like that a lot.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So I do remember that. That was fun.

Christian: You guys are way too trusting. I don’t know.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: Agreed.

Christine: That’s one word for it.

Kalyn: Hey–

Christian: Way too trusting.

Kalyn: –we’re among friends if we’re among ParaPods.

Christian: Aren’t you a true crime podcast?

Kalyn: That’s how I feel personally.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Yes, we’re all connected.

Kalyn: The great circle of ParaPods. Yeah, we are–

Christine: That’s right.

Kalyn: –just beyond thrilled. Thank you, first of all, for letting us be here, for letting us be on your network. Um, it’s the thing that you’re not supposed to say to like a prospective–

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: –suitor or like a job or, uh, whatever, but ParaPods was really the only network we ever imagined, [chuckles] uh–

Christine: Oh my god.

Kalyn: –being on.

Christian: That’s true. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

Em: Oh my god.

Kalyn: We weren’t– It’s not like we were shopping if, if I’m being honest.

Em: Oh my god.

Kalyn: Um, it made so much sense to us.

Christine: What?

Kalyn: Just too much sense. And we were very thrilled that all of you agreed on that. [chuckles]

Christine: Oh my goodness.

Em: You’re very sweet. You, you–

Christine: Well, that’s so kind.

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: It was truly the– Like we were shooting for the moon, and the moon was ParaPods, and somehow we made it–

Em: Oh my god.

Kalyn: –us and NASA together.

Christine: Well, from our end, we saw your lovely show, and I remember like clicking the website, and, and I was like, “This is, this is the stuff. This is it.”

Kalyn: Oh my god.

Christine: And it’s just, it’s just a great match, I think.

Kalyn: I think so too.

Em: Our ego is–

Christian: We think so.

Em: –sky-high. Thank you so much.

Christine: Yeah. You just, you just really–

Kalyn: And yeah, so is ours for being here–

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: You butter– You buttered us up. [laughs]

Kalyn: –so this is gonna be a ride today. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Well–

Em: Well– Oh!

Christine: Jinx. [laughs]

Em: I was gonna say, does anyone have– Since this is, uh, And That’s Why We Drink, does anyone have anything that they’re drinking today?

Kalyn: Ooh.

Em: Do you have a dr– a–

Christian: Oh.

Kalyn: So many things.

Christian: Okay, hold on. I put it away, but I’m gonna get it.

Em: W– [chuckles] Okay.

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: ’Cause this is the time.

Christine: Why would y– Oh, so you were like, “Oh, it’s time for And That’s Why We Drink. I guess I’ll put my beverage away.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Kalyn: We get to be asked the question. Yeah. [laughs] And you’re gonna put it away.

Christian: [grunting as he picks up a nearly empty bottle of whiskey, holding it up to the camera]

Em: Oh!

Christine: [gasps]

Kalyn: There it is. Whoa.

Christine: Whoa!

Em: That’s an incredible thing to drink.

Christine: Now, we’re talking.

Christian: You guys ever had Clyde May’s Alabama Style Whiskey?

Kalyn: Celebratory.

Em: That’s a Christine question.

Christine: H– That’s a sentence that I really–

Christian: Am I allowed to show this on the camera? [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: Yeah. Absolutely.

Christine: You’re actually required to show it on air.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um, that is a beauty.

[The cork squeaks as Christian pulls it out of the bottle and pours himself a glass.]

Kalyn: It’s part of the contract.

Christine: I’ve not had that. I’ve not had the pleasure. I’ll be honest. I’ve not had the pleasure. But it looks like a pleasure.

Em: I–

Kalyn: It does.

Christian: Are you a whiskey person?

Christine: Uh, you know, I’m not. But like–

Christian: I know–

Christine: –I try.

Christian: –I know you’ve done like wine historically, so.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Yeah. And I live in Kentucky, so like I really tried with the bourbon thing.

Christian: Okay.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It just is like not– [sighs]

Christian: Sure.

Christine: It’s not for me.

Christian: No, I get it. I get it.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: I get it. Anyway–

Em: I, I am–

Christine: Maybe some day when I’m an old–

Christian: Well, w-we’re from Alabama, so–

Christine: –when I’m an old man, an old rich man.

Christian: –you know, I just feel like I have to.

Christine: Yeah. Alabama–

Em: I will say–

Christine: I feel like if you’re in the– Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Em: –whiskey is my favorite drink to sniff.

Christian: Okay, yes.

Kalyn: You know what, Em? Me too. I can’t have–

Em: So.

Kalyn: –much of any anymore, um, due to like all weird chronic health issues. So my friends do tastings, and I sniff them. It’s great.

Christine: Yeah, that’s actually so smart.

Em: [chuckles] Welcome to my world. Yeah, it’s, uh, [chuckles] it’s– I don’t know how to describe it. It is very fun once you just commit to the bit and you’re like–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –“I’m the sniffer of the party,” so.

Kalyn: Yep.

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: “I’m the sniffer. These are the notes I’m sniffing. We’ll see if your, your palette agrees.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Wow.

Em: What– Do you have a favorite thing you’ve sniffed?

Kalyn: Mm.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: Great question. And I really– I, I don’t–

Christine: Okay–

Kalyn: –’cause it’s just the echo really–

Christine: –like I know you guys are used to dating–

Kalyn: –the memory of what the whiskey was.

Christine: –and I feel like now Christian–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and I are kind of like–

Em: Yeah, this is second date conversation. Go away. [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs] What’s your– For sure.

Christine: Really intimate stuff.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: “What’s the–“

Christine: “What have you sniffed?”

Kalyn: “What’s the best thing you’ve ever sniffed?” Yeah. [laughs]

Christian: “So have you sniffed anything recently?”

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: “What, what was it like?” [laughs]

Christian: “What’s your favorite smell?”, you know.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “What was it like?” [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs] God.

Christine: Um, anyway, w– Kalyn, are you drinking any–

Kalyn: I’m drinking–

Christine: Are you drinking anything?

Kalyn: Yes, it’s a, a bubble water as I call them – Forever Blackberry.

Christine: Cute.

[Kalyn holds up a silver and teal can with “Maison Perrier” in teal letters at the top of the can and “Forever Blackberry” below it.]

Kalyn: Um, and this just has the right–

Christine: Ooh.

Kalyn: –amount of bubble. It’s the Maison Perrier. Like I don’t know. Some bubbles are just too mu– I like the Aldi brand–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: –and I like Maison Perrier. And I, I–

Christine: Yeah, some get a little violent.

Kalyn: –love a blackberry, a peach occasionally.

Christine: That’s charming. I like that.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um–

Em: Beautiful.

Christine: Em, what did–

Em: Christine?

Christine: Oh, I have a, um– I have a little THC seltzer for funsies.

[Christine holds up a light green can with drawings of red and green fruit on it.]

Em: Fun.

Kalyn: Christine, I thought that’s what that was. I recognized the can. That’s all I’ll say. [chuckles]

Christine: It’s pretty darn good.

Christian: I’ve never had one.

Christine: Oh, it’s pretty darn good, I gotta say.

Christian: I really gotta try it out.

Kalyn: Is that the raspberry lime?

Christine: Girl, you know it is.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: Thought so. Just thought so.

Christine: You know it is. You sure do. Grown in Kentucky, by the way. So we’re all doing our–

Kalyn: Had no idea. Wow.

Christine: –local–

Em: Um, I–

Christine: –local brand.

Christian: Hey.

Em: Uh, just to finish it out, I am drinking another Moon Punch, uh, Capri Sun.

Christian: Oh, hell yeah.

Kalyn: [gasps]

Christine: [laughs] Oh, yeah, the Moon–

Em: It is–

[Em holds the pouch up to the camera. In the middle of the pouch, there is a photo of waning crescent moon with a small graphic art flag at the top that says “waning crescent.”]

Em: This one is the w– the waning crescent. So, um–

Kalyn: That’s incredible.

Christine: Oh, that’s–

Christian: Fuck, yeah.

Christine: –beautiful.

Kalyn: I have to find some of that. I really– I need to.

Christian: I haven’t had that one.

Em: They–

Christian: Look, there are so many things that I talk about on our show or–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Anytime I talk about nostalgic things, it’s like Super Soakers and Capri Sun–

Kalyn: Capri Sun.

Em: [groans]

Christian: –and like Gushers. Capri Sun.

Christine: [groans]

Em: I would love to talk to you about Super Soakers one day. We don’t have to do it, um, right now–

Christian: We should do that.

Em: –because it’ll get too lengthy, but I–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Oh?

Em: –do– I have a lot of opinions about the Super Soakers.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Em: And I did think– Um, Capri Suns, I thought it was fitting, uh, since you are also a nostalgia-based podcast.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Uh-huh, Uh-huh, yeah.

Kalyn: That’s us. Nostalgia. Nostalgia.

Em: So I thought that was very, very lovely.

Christian: Really anything that had like juicy commercials.

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: [groans]

Kalyn: Gushers.

Christian: There was lots of fluid.

Christine: They were doing something that–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –psychically to us or, or–

Kalyn: Yep.

Christine: –psychiatrically, I don’t know. But like something was happening.

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: We were all going through puberty, you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christian: It was just happening–

Christine: Neurons were–

Christian: –at the same time. Just–

Kalyn: Yep.

Christine: Synapses were firing, etc.

Christian: –lots of fluids, liquids.

Kalyn: Some things were– Dots were connecting. Yeah.

Christine: Just like squishing, yeah.

Kalyn: For sure.

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Well, since you are a, um, also a spooky and nostalgia-based podcast–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –we have a very, uh, fun topic for people today, but I’m going to, uh, start it off. I’m gonna pre-game–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –with my own topic to lead–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –into your topic.

Kalyn: So excited.

Christian: Yes.

Em: And, uh, the, the connection between the two, maybe people will know where we’re heading when I say this–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –but m– I have a story for everybody today, and it is in St. Helens, Oregon.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And if people know th– what that means, then they know what that means. And if not, you’re in for a nice surprise.

[glass clinks - start of ad break]

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[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]

Em’s Story – Tales from St. Helens, Oregon including the Klondike Tavern

Em: We’re gonna cover, uh, the Klondike Hotel.

Christian: Okay.

Em: And I say Klondike Hotel hesitantly because I learned through my research that it is sometimes called the Klondike Hotel. Sometimes it was called the Klondike Tavern, and sometimes it’s called the Klondike Restaurant and Bar.

Kalyn: Ah.

Em: And recently it has just been called The Klondike. So.

Christian: [under his breath] The Klondike.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Sure.

Kalyn: All three, all four–

Em: All four.

Christian: Concise.

Kalyn: –at once.

Em: Thank you. So um, buckle in. And as I mentioned, this is in downtown St. Helens, Oregon. The building itself was built in 1910, and it was originally called a completely different name, which is the St. Helens Hotel.

Kalyn: More on the nose.

Em: Five years.

Christine: “More on the nose.” [laughs]

Christian: Alright. [chuckles]

Em: [laughs] And, uh, the St. Helens Hotel opened, although it was mainly more of a boarding house for the workers in town. And fun fact, there was a brothel behind it, so I like to imagine that there was probably some colorful history going on there.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Was not, not your, not your average Joe hotel. Um, except, just kidding, every hotel in the early 1900s–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –seems to have been connected to a brothel.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It’s just part of the– It was just a different time.

Kalyn: What else were they gonna do, you know?

Christine: Yeah, exactly.

Em: Yeah. They didn’t have screens.

Kalyn: This is pre-internet.

Em: I know.

Kalyn: Pre-screens in general.

Em: They didn’t have phones. They didn’t have TikTok.

Christian: And they couldn’t read, so they couldn’t like–

Em: Not most.

Christian: –have a library.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Right.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: It’s too bad.

Em: Many of them could not read.

Christine: It’s actually like so tragic.

Christian: “And down here, we have our, our se-selection of fine books and literature, classic literature.” [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] They–

Christine: “And there’s the brothel, the door to the right.” Yeah.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: Sorry. “Pay– Take your pick.”

Em: So my understanding of– I mean, I’m going real quick through this– just that it was a hotel, also a boarding house, and then at some point, the bar closed. It– I th– I know the bar closed in 1961. There was a bar inside this hotel. It closed, but then–

Christine: Oh. Um, was it, uh, by chance called a Klondike Bar?

Kalyn: Ooh.

Christian: [laughs]

Em: Literally, yes.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: What would you do at the Klondike Bar?

Em: What w–

Christine: Anything. Literally anything. [laughs]

Em: Well, thank you– First of all, thank you for mentioning that. If you did not, I literally had highlighted in my notes–

Christine: I kn– Shoot.

Em: –that like a Klondike bar is like also nostalgic, and I was like–

Christine: Sorry, I–

Em: –“H– What are the odds?”

Christine: –I cockblocked your own joke. I’m sorry.

Kalyn: It just fits.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: It just works.

Em: You’re tot– I was hoping somebody would say it, so I’m glad.

Christine: Stole the thunder.

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: It had to be you.

Christian: The dots.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: The dots keep connecting.

Christine: [laughs] They keep connecting.

Em: So, uh–

Christine: It’s that stellium I think is what it is. Yeah.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: For sure.

Em: The bar closed in 1961. Uh, and I think it was, it was on the second floor of this building that was a hotel. So–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –I say that because it’s odd that now the tavern is– it’s– has reopened since on the second floor of what is now everywhere else an abandoned building. So you have to go like to the second floor of a building that’s not really used–

Kalyn: Oh?

Em: –to go to the restaurant.

Christian: Hm.

Kalyn: Well, that’s a recipe for paranormal happening.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: For, for bad.

Em: I–

Kalyn: They asked for it.

Em: I agree.

Christine: They did.

Em: And at some point– I don’t know if the St. Helen’s Hotel became officially named the Klondike Hotel or if it got the name The Klondike because the bar inside was called The Klondike Restaurant and Bar.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Hm.

Em: Or The Kl– So I, I don’t, I don’t know how Klondike–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: People have suggested in the past, “Do the Klondike Hotel,” and then Eva, who actually is the one who suggested this topic– I think Eva also called it the Klondike Hotel. So it, it’s known as the Klondike Hotel when you search for it, but–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –nowhere is it actually called that.

Christian: Interesting.

Kalyn: And what came first? The bar or the hotel? It’s just kind of murky.

Em: Yeah, i-it’s all murky.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: I really– I tried, and yet, I came up with kind of nothing. So whoops.

Kalyn: We understand that.

Em: Um– [chuckles]

Kalyn: Really do.

Christian: It happens, yeah.

Em: Thank you. So although the bar is open inside the hotel, the rest of the building is closed off, which as you said is the perfect recipe for, uh, ghosts. And in 2018, the Klondike Restaurant and Bar or the Klondike Tavern, however you call it, it, uh– At the time, they thought it was permanently closing down, uh–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –because I guess it was just hard to maintain and things like that. And up until that time, 2018, this was known to be one of the most haunted places in Oregon [pronounced “ore-again”]. So, um, it– Or Oregon [pronounced “ore-ih-gone”]. I’ll never know.

Christine: No, you’re right. The first time.

Kalyn: Oregon [pronounced “ore-again”]?

Em: [laughs] I, I hear it every time–

Kalyn: Don’t ask me. [chuckles]

Christian: Oregon [pronounced “ore-ray-gone”].

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Oregon [pronounced “ore-ray-gone”].

Em: Oregano, yes.

Kalyn: Don’t add another option.

Christian: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: The Klondike State.

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: Mm-hmm. [laughs]

Em: So, um, in 2018, right before it closed, up until that point, it was noted everywhere as incredibly haunted. People had investigations going on in there. Uh, TV shows filmed in there. Um, Lorraine Warren actually went in. I don’t know if you are familiar with the, the Warrens, but–

Christian: Oh, yes.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Of course.

Em: Okay. So Lorraine Warren went in there with one of the TV shows, and they did a three-day investigation there, and she was like, “Oh, it’s so haunted.” She–

Kalyn: Wow.

Christian: Of course.

Em: Of course. I’ve never seen her–

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: –go into a place and not think it’s haunted.

Christine: She was like, “Not at all.” [laughs]

Christian: I’m not surprised. [chuckles]

Kalyn: Did Mr. Bagans enter the chat?

Em: Bagans has not been there yet, but–

Christine: [chuckles] “enter–“

Kalyn: Okay. Well– [laughs]

Em: There’s– It’s all–

Christine: Any day now.

Em: There’s always time for that, I think.

Kalyn: Always.

Christine: He'll find his way.

Christian: [laughs]

Em: Um–

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: Of the things people have witnessed here, people have heard voices in empty rooms. They’ve also heard voices whispering their names, which cannot imagine something worse.

Christine: “Lorraine.”

Christian: Mm.

Kalyn: That's rough.

Christine: [in a ghostly voice] “Lorraine.”

Em: [in a ghostly voice] “Lorraine.”

Christian: [in a creepy, soft voice] “Lorraine.”

Em: Oh! [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Now, that’s actually very scary.

Em: That was horrific. Thank you.

Kalyn: Haunting.

Christian: [in a creepy, soft voice] “Your husband sucks.”

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] “Your husband’s a pervert.”

Kalyn: “Dump him.”

Em: [in a ghostly voice] “And so do you.”

Kalyn: “Dump him.”

Christine: [laughs] [in a ghostly voice] “And so do you.”

Christian: [whispering] “You’re the worst.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs] You know what?

Christine: It’s j-just a burn book.

Em: That is worse is just being judged and criticized the whole time you’re there.

Christian: [laughs] Just, just heckling.

Christine: It’s just being like negged by ghosts.

Kalyn: Just a chorus of ghosts who hate you.

Christine: Yeah, and they’re just–

Em: [laughs]

Christian: “You suck!”

Kalyn: You specifically.

Christine: We just covered that in an ep– Em just– We recorded an episode that will come out before, before this one but hasn’t come out yet where, uh, these ghosts just hated Nick Groff–

Em: Yes!

Christine: –of Ghost Adventures–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –and literally anytime they talked to him, they were like, “Fuck Nick Groff!”

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Like, “Nick–“ And they’d ask a different question, they’re like–

Em: They were like, “Let us know you’re here,” and it’s like, “We hate you, Nick.” It’s like– [laughs]

Christine: “Get out of here, Nick.”

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christine: And it’s like, wow, it’s got to be personal at that point. I don’t know.

Em: [sighs] Well, so people hear all sorts of voices. They hear a little girl crying out.

Christian: Mm.

Em: Apparently, the, the radio will turn on and off, and the volume will change itself.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: Awful. A coffee maker turns itself on and off–

Kalyn: Mm.

Em: –which–

Christian: No.

Em: –I’m kind of okay with that.

Kalyn: Thirsty ghosts. Yeah.

Em: Yeah, like–

Christian: Well, I mean, if it’s making a good cup of coffee, sure. But if it makes a–

Em: Like, “Make me a pot.”

Christian: But if it makes a bad cup of coffee, like–

Christine: Yeah. I was gonna say if it’s making it from the same grounds over and over again–

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: –that’s pretty gnarly.

Em: I wonder if it’s–

Christian: I think that’s kind of like it’s not like your fault, but it’s your responsibility to like replace–

Christine: That– Mm.

Kalyn: Clean the coffee maker.

Christian: –the coffee daily.

Em: 100%.

Christine: “Sorry, now you have a new task.” Yeah.

Christian: Yeah, it’s up to you.

Em: “If you’re gonna be involved in this, do something about it.”

Kalyn: It’s a very corporate way to go about it.

Christine: [laughs] “Do something–“

Christian: Be the haunted coffee you wanna see in the world, you know.

Em: Espe– Imagine if the ghosts are now also leaving notes on the coffee maker, being like, “Whoever didn’t clean up last time, I’m on to you.”

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: 100%. “This microwave is only–“

Kalyn: “And while you’re at it, clean the microwave.”

Christian: [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

Em: So objects move on their own throughout the building. Pictures have thrown themselves off of walls. Light bulbs explode. Drinking glasses have shattered themselves.

Kalyn: Mm-mmm.

Em: Um, and people have seen figures in the windows on floors that are blocked off, so nobody should be there, but they see people walking around up there. They’ve seen a little boy, uh, asking for his dad, and then he vanishes.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Christian: That’s just sad.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I, I wanna know the lore, but also I think maybe, for my own mental health, it’s probably for the best I don’t know.

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah, it’s just probably just a real bummer.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: [chuckles] For the best.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: Like I’m nosy, but like I don’t know if I’m that nosy.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Mm.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, people have also seen an older man sitting at a booth, and as soon as the waiter goes up to take his order, he vanishes, which I love.

Christine: Fun.

Em: Um, and then–

Kalyn: Trolling.

Em: –people see a floating half of a body–

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: –at the top of the stairs.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: They see like just the head and torso, but no feet.

Kalyn: Hm.

Em: How’d you get up the stairs?

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: Anyway–

Christine: Good question.

Christian: Wait. To go, to go back to the waiter, isn’t that just a waiter?

Christine: Oh! Diss.

Christian: Hey!

Em: Now, that’s something.

Christine: Actually–

Christian: Sorry.

Christine: –we officially side with the service industry.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Thank you so– [laughs] I’m just kidding.

Kalyn: Yeah, for real. All of us.

Em: You know–

Christian: Look, you guys are on your second date. It’s all about how you treat–

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: –the waitstaff, alright?

Christine: You know what?

Christian: Pay attention.

Christine: We’re eyeing it. We’re eyeing it.

Em: That’s true.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: We’re paying attention.

Em: That’s a great point.

Christine: That’s so true.

Em: The, um, the building, like I said, has had a bunch of paranormal investigations come through. They’ve also had like– They’ve hosted spiritual classes there. S–

Christine: Ooh.

Em: I just know Christine would eat this shit up.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: There–

Christine: What? [laughs]

Em: They– They’ve had like classes hosted there where like– to open up your third eye and like–

Christine: Yes.

Christian: Oh?

Em: –psychic classes–

Kalyn: Oh?

Em: –and you go in there with, uh, an experienced psychic, and, and they help you tap into stuff and–

Christine: Cool.

Christian: Yeah.

Em: I just, I just know Christine would sign up.

Kalyn: Would you do ayahuasca at the Klondike Bar? [laughs]

Christine: Oh–

Em: Well– [chuckles]

Christian: Hey. [chuckles]

Christine: –that feels like a fake sentence.

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Em: It’s gone from “What would you do for a Klondike bar?”–

Kalyn: Uh-huh.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –to “What would you do at the Klondike Bar?”

Kalyn: Right.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: It’s truth or dare at the Klondike Bar.

Christian: Yeah. I mean, you have to because you don’t want your third eye to be blind.

Christine: Oh, you–

Kalyn: Mm.

Em: Now–

Christine: Come on.

Em: –hang on a second. [chuckles]

Christine: Hang on.

Kalyn: Your life will become semi-charmed.

Em: Gonna take a breath.

Christine: Hang on. I’ve actually–

Kalyn: Real quick.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: My, my footing has been–

Christian: Instead– [laughs]

Em: Need to breathe.

Christine: –destabilized. [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: Um, apparently, pe– This is a quote from, uh, a newspaper article I saw: “Nearly every team,” or investigat– group that’s gone investigating there. “Nearly every team has reported sensing an altercation that took place somewhere on the second floor”–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –which is where the bar was.

Kalyn: Where the alcohol is.

Em: So I could see like a saloon–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Uh-huh.

Em: Where the alcohol is, yes. Um, the show that Lorraine Warren guested on was, uh, Paranormal State, fun fact, in case you wanna go watch it.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Okay.

Em: And I did say in 2018 that the building closed, and they thought for good. But after the pandemic, uh, there was a guy from Portland named Holcombe Waller, and–

Christian: Oh?

Em: –he to–

Christine: What? [laughs]

Em: –he took a tour of it, and he was like, “I’ve always wanted to open my own bed and breakfast– or boutique hotel,” or some phrasing like that. He was like, “Maybe I just do that right now.” And he ended up buying the place. And his plan, at least at the time of this news article, was to reopen the restaurant and reopen the hotel and completely have it as it once was.

Kalyn: Wow.

Em: Um, I think since then, the hotel plans are out and it’s just the restaurant that’s open, which it’s now been, according to its website, renamed The Klondike.

Christine: Mm.

Christian: Hm. Hm.

Em: And I have not seen any mention of him talking about ghosts, but maybe that’s part of his like rebrand. But I would argue that the rebrand needs the ghosts.

Christine: It does.

Kalyn: Definitely.

Christian: Yeah. Why wouldn’t you lean in?

Christine: He’s wrong.

Kalyn: You have to lean in at this point.

Em: I don’t know. If he's listening, bring ‘em back.

Kalyn: Holcombe.

Christian: Get your shit together, man.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Holcombe?

Kalyn: Mr. Holcombe Wa-Waller. That’s a hotel– That’s– That guy owns a hotel. Like you just would assume that if you heard his name.

Christian: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: He’s born for it.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: He’s born for it.

Em: “My name’s Holcombe Waller.”

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: Holcombe.

Em: Like, you are, you are the owner of a hotel, for sure.

Christine: Your parents were like–

Kalyn: [laughs] Of the Hotel Wallers, yeah.

Christine: –“Uh, your name’s interesting, but we have to make your first name way weirder than your last name.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: [laughs]

Em: It’s very, um, like Hallmark movie.

Christian: Yeah, Holcombe’s a last name.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Yeah. It’s–

Christine: Very weird.

Christian: Yeah.

Em: I, I feel like there’s a lot of people in the world who have two first names–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: –as their first and last name.

Christian: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: I was just gonna say that.

Em: You don’t get a lot of two last names as the first and last name.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Mm-mmm.

Christian: That’s true.

Kalyn: That’s much more unique, yeah.

Christine: It’s a power move.

Christian: That’s true.

Em: Anyway, that is, uh, the Klondike building, I’m just gonna call it, uh, in St. Helens, Oregon.

Kalyn: Wow.

Em: So that’s, that’s a quick little one, and I only made it super quick, um, so that way the two of you could really, uh– I know that you prepared some very extensive notes–

Kalyn: Oh, man.

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: –and I did not wanna step on your toes here, so.

Kalyn: Too many, honestly. Far too many.

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Kalyn’s Story – Halloweentown

Em: Tell us, uh, all the fun of the nostalgia that is St. Helens, Oregon.

Kalyn: Well, I think it’s only fair and only fitting that Em reveal the topic as this is your childhood haunt. This is the thing that was haunting you in childhood–

Christine: That’s right.

Kalyn: –one of several that you gave us options to talk about, and we were very excited to talk about this one.

Em: Thank you. I was, I was very excited. You said, “Hm, give me some nostalgic movies that you really liked,” and I went, “Oh my god [chuckles]–“

Christine: “Oh, please. Sit down.”

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Em: “The options are endless.” But one of the first ones I, I requested was, was Halloweentown, so.

Christine: [clapping]

Christian: [chuckles] I was gonna say–

Kalyn: [in a sing-song voice] Halloweentown.

Christian: –St. Helens or–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: –Halloweentown.

Kalyn: That’s where we’re going today. That’s where we’re headed. Yeah, Halloweentown. Um, you also mentioned Double, Double Toil and Trouble, uh, and any listeners of That’s Pretty Dark will know–

Christian: [chuckles] Oh my god.

Kalyn: –that I am chomping, champing really, at the bit to do–

Christian: It’s cha-champing, yeah.

Kalyn: –a Mary-Kate and Ashley episode.

Christine: [chuckles]

Kalyn: So I was so stoked to see that. And then there– they– Dualstar is so tight-lipped.

Em: I know.

Kalyn: They don’t tell you anything.

Christine: Ohh.

Kalyn: So I was like, “If I can’t do a Dualstar production with Em and Christine, Halloweentown’s the next best thing.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Christian: Kalyn has–

Em: I really appreciate it.

Christian: Kalyn has shoehorned a Mary-Kate and Ashley reference–

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: –into every single episode–

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: Yeah, true.

Christian: –that we’ve ever done.

Em: I– And you know what? As you should.

Kalyn: I– It– It’s a compulsion. It’s a sickness, uh, and I’m–

Christian: –and I’m not mad about it.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: –I’m happy to have this fever.

Christian: ’Cause I grew up with older sisters. I’m the youngest of, uh, of– I have two older sisters, and, um, I used to hang out with them and all their friends–

Christine: [chuckles]

Christian: –and we used to watch Mary-Kate and Ashley movies at every sleepover we had. So–

Em: Of course.

Christine: Yeah, it’s a perfect sleepover film.

Christian: –I’m very familiar. I’m very familiar.

Kalyn: You had the education. You had the foundation.

Em: You putting a reference into every episode is actually why we put you on the network, so–

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: –it w– it was worth it, I think, for you.

Christine: That was the ultimate test.

Christian: Oh, at least it was– [laughs]

Kalyn: That was the test. That was where– All along it was riding on that. I’m really glad that–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Well–

Christian: It paid off.

Kalyn: –that we connected that way.

Em: Before you start, I would like to have, um, our audience also know that Christine, this was your first time watching Halloweentown–

Kalyn: Mm.

Em: –which is so exciting.

Christine: It wa–

Em: Welcome to the folds.

Christine: It was a fucking delight. I was beside myself. I’m so happy. I’m just so happy. I just fucking loved it. That’s all I have to say.

Kalyn: It’s–

Em: It’s a 10 out of 10.

Kalyn: –it’s like if a Spirit Halloween became a cozy little town, that’s–

Christine: And gave you like a hug.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Yeah, and gave you a hug. [groans]

Christine: It was so cheer– cheery. I just loved it.

Em: Absolutely.

Christian: Well, the way I described it was it’s like Hocus Pocus set in Stars Hollow.

Christine: Mm!

Em: [chuckles] That’s a–

Christine: Oh, man. Wow.

Em: –I think the best quote I’ve ever heard in my entire life. That’s–

Christine: That’s a powerhouse.

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Em: 100% correct.

Christian: Alright, I’m signing off. You guys have fun.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: Yep, thank you.

Christine: We’re gonna mute you again.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: That was a great contribution, Christian. We appreciate it. Before we do dive into Halloweentown, though, I’ll give kind of a brief idea of what our show is.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Um, again, we’re That’s Pretty Dark podcast. It is more than just a rewatch podcast. The thing that Christian and I kind of found as we were just talking– Now, we’ve been at this for like five years now. We’ve been friends for a decade. And as we’re talking about like what we grew up on and what we cared about, we kept realizing that we all felt like we watched these things on our VHS player like by ourselves or with our siblings, you know, but this was before any of us could connect and talk about what we were seeing.

Christine: Ohh.

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: And–

Em: That’s such a good point.

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: –so much of the media that we were consuming at the time– we are millennials, but obviously even Gen X and Gen Z, like we were consuming this media, but it was very emotionally, um, deep, we’ll say. There was–

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: –a lot of emotional depth–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: –to the things that we were seeing. And it’s not– Like we talk about like the subliminal darkness or like what was darker or deeper, and we kept having these conversations, and we realized we just needed a place to talk about that from our childhood.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: [groans] Love it.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: And so–

Christian: 'Cause we’re the last generation to fully experience like true disconnect from–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: –you know–

Em: Yeah.

Christian: –the social media era.

Kalyn: Pre-internet childhood. Right.

Christian: Pre– pre-internet, pre– pre-digit– digital age and everything.

Christine: [sighs]

Christian: Um, so yeah, I mean, um, to have–

Em: Such a good point.

Christine: Hard to believe.

Christian: –to have a place to, to talk about it has been, um, you know, bountiful, to say the least.

Christine: That’s amazing.

Kalyn: Yeah. Because it’s more than just like what was made. It’s the why and the how.

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Em: Uh, like the Don Bluth movies that made you cry constantly, like All Dogs Go to Heaven–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: –and, um, like The Rescuers.

Christine: Traumatizing.

Kalyn: Traumatizing.

Christian: Traumatizing, yeah.

Kalyn:, uh, things like Courageous Cowardly Dog, you know, that are just–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Traumatizing.

Kalyn: There is this– Yeah, th– It’s classic, and we grew up on it, and like what did it do to us and why?

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: And 9 times out of 10, we come into it feeling like, “Whoa, this was so heavy. Why did we watch it as kids?” And we come out going, “We’re really better off for having watched that.”

Christian: Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Like that taught us a lot. We grew from it.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn:, um, so it’s like, you know, the cultural context. There's often folklore.

Christine: And like you’re taking decades later like now connecting over it, which is so cool.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: So unifying, yeah.

Christine: Like you didn’t have the ti– at the time that connection.

Kalyn: Yeah. Yeah, we– it’s commiserating, honestly–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –oftentimes, um–

Christian: Yeah, essentially.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah, yeah.

Kalyn: –commiserating, but it’s kind of like we’re taking the head off of the Scooby-Doo monsters of that stuff that we watched when we were alone–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –and everything that was like hiding in our imagination and in our closet and better understanding–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: –how they actually impacted us. So that’s–

Christian: Yeah, it’s–

Em: Genius.

Christine: Well, I haven’t shared this yet, but the reason– [chuckles] When I watched Halloweentown, I remembered the reason I had never seen it is ’cause I started it and I was too scared as a kid–

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: Aw.

Christine: –and I never finished it. I was too scared. I was so scared of everything that like it just wasn’t gonna happen. And by the ti–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: I was too–

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: –but I would watch everything like with my older sister. We watched everything–

Christine: I think if I had older siblings, I would have–

Kalyn: You had a buffer.

Christine: Yeah. I didn’t have any older sib–

Christian: We would, we would laugh at it during the day–

Em: Mm.

Christian: –and then at night–

Christine: It would like come back to haunt you? [chuckles]

Kalyn: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christian: –I would be too afraid to sleep–

Kalyn: You go to bed and you’re like, “Hmm.”

Christian: –and I’d have to go run to her room–

Christine: Yep.

Christian: –on the other side of the house and sleep in her room–

Christine: Aw.

Christian: –’cause I was too scared, you know?

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: I was the older sister, but I was also so sensitive.

Christian: So you had to be brave, but you weren’t.

Kalyn: Same. Yeah.

Christine: I wasn’t. [laughs]

Christian: Wow.

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: I was an only child, so no one was telling me what was going on. I just–

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: I just heard at school I needed to watch this thing, and I went, “Okay,” and–

Christian: Let’s do it.

Em: –had to commit to it, so.

Christian: Yeah, but–

Kalyn: I mean, whatever hit you hit you.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: Our, our, our show, we tend to focus on children’s media, things that we grew up with.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: But it’s the things that scared us as children that still continue to haunt us as adults–

Christine: [gasps]

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: –that have stuck with us over time.

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: Mhm.

Christine: And so we make the point to–

Kalyn: And we dip back into like Pinocchio, like older stuff too, you know, like things that we, we–

Em: Oh, cool.

Christian: Yeah, we, we do, yeah.

Kalyn: Uh, Willy Wonka, you know–

Christian: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: –that kind of stuff.

Christian: We, we covered Pinocchio, the history of Pinocchio, back to, um–

Christine: Oh man. That’s another one.

Christian: –Collodi back in the 1800s writing these stories and everything.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: I mean, there’s no limit.

Em: I did not know about the Pinocchio episode. I’m– I have to write that one down.

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christian: Go, go check it out.

Christine: Me too actually. That, that one’s gonna–

Kalyn: There, there’s just–

Christian: We did it, we did it for Christmas one year.

Kalyn: There are so many layers of his– It’s not just the like what was made, but like what were the creators thinking that made them–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –make what they made to make us think how we think–

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: –to bring us here today making the stuff that we make as a generation?

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: Quick side question–

Em: Mm?

Christine: –have you covered The Brave Little Toaster Goes to Mars?

Kalyn: We–

Christian: Well– Okay, no, the original–

Kalyn: We’ve covered The Brave Little Toaster.

Christine: The first one?

Kalyn: We’ve not covered Goes to Mars yet.

Christine: 'Cause yesterday after I finished Halloweentown, um, th– I keep having this– I– So this is so fucking insane. I’m so sorry, everybody. I ha– I’m just gonna say it–

Kalyn: No–

Christine: –and then we can move on.

Kalyn: –don’t– Mm-mmm.

Christine: It’s insane.

Christian: [chuckles] Say it.

Kalyn: You’re among friends.

Christine: I got reiki two weeks ago, and while I was receiving reiki for the first time in years, I had this sudden like flashback. And it was of all these balloons in outer space singing, and I was like–

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christine: –“What the fuck?” And–

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: It’s like I was there yesterday. [laughs]

Christine: It almost like kept popping back into my head throughout the week–

Kalyn: Whoa.

Christine: –and then finally I was like, “[gasps] That scene from The Brave Little Toaster Goes to Mars.

Christian: [chuckles] Oh, wow.

Christine: Like I don’t know where from the recesses of my subconscious that got pulled out.

Kalyn: That is incredible.

Christine: But then after I finished Halloweentown that came up as like recommended viewing, and I was like, “I wonder if it really was in this movie.” And I clicked it, and like ten minutes in, it’s these balloons in outer space singing–

Christian: Wow.

Kalyn: Singing.

Christine: –and I’m like having this like weird existential crisis–

Christian: Wow.

Christine: –like, “Why is this just–

Kalyn: That was just really stuffed in there somewhere. Like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: It must have like needed to come out of my head.

Kalyn: –deep.

Christine: It was so strange. Um, anyway, I watched that and had a lot of weird like memories of how much those two movies kind of like disturbed me also as a child.

Christian: Well, we’ve never–

Kalyn: Yeah, a lot of people remember the clown, the clown scenes–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: –’cause it’s a dream in that movie.

Christine: Yes, the clown.

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: Uh, yeah. I hadn’t th– I– 'Cause I didn’t watch the first one–

Kalyn: Sorry. [chuckles] Sorry to bring it back.

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: No, I’m like, “Oh my god, the clown. I forgot about the clown. Oh no.”

Christian: We’ve, we’ve never done a sequel yet–

Christine: Okay. Oh, ev–

Christian: –but if we ever do that–

Christine: Okay, okay.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: –you’re gonna have to come on the show in–

Kalyn: Yeah, you’re gonna have to come–

Christine: Oof. I really will say I watched it, and I was like, “Okay, aside from the fact that they call humans ‘Master’– Uh,

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –all the appliances call human “Master,” which is like super not–

Christian: No. [laughs]

Christine: –really didn’t stand up–

Kalyn: Mm. [groans]

Christine: –didn’t hold up over time.

Christian: Uh-huh.

Christine: But other than that, like I was like, “It’s a pretty good watch.”

Kalyn: Yeah, I agree, man.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: Hey, well, I’ve never seen it, so I’ll have to watch it.

Christine: Sorry! We’re here for Halloweentown. [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Anyway. [laughs]

Kalyn: That’s– No, we needed to tangent to that because that’s very important. Again, formative, and that’s really what we’re here to talk about.

Christine: I love that.

Kalyn: So part of what we do is we talk through like the production story. So I’ve got some brief stuff on that, and then we’ll kind of dive into the plot of the movie and give all of your very gracious listeners a little taste of what it’s like–

Christine: I love it.

Kalyn: –over on That’s Pretty Dark. And if at any point this doesn’t sound fun to you, just let me know, and we’ll truncate it even further and speed it up.

Em: We’ll just pull the plug. [laughs]

Christian: We’ll– Hey, we’ll fast forward the VHS tape. [laughs]

Kalyn: We’ll fast forward.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Fast forward. Love that.

Christine: Brrr. [Christine mimics a VCR fast forwarding a VHS tape as she pretends to turn a dial.]

Kalyn: Just– Yeah. Vaudeville hook. Just get me–

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: –get me out of here and everything will be okay.

Christine: We would never do that to you, I promise.

Em: I, I will say as someone who’s obsessed with fun facts, I don’t think there’s gonna be a moment that I, I regret, uh, at all today, so, so–

Kalyn: That's amazing.

Em: Very excited.

Kalyn: That, that helps. Truly, that does.

Christine: [claps]

Kalyn: Um, but I’ll start off again with a little bit of the production story because the story of Halloweentown started not with like a grand studio vision. Nobody was like imagining this happening to make money necessarily on the studio side. It was a kid who asked a question.

Em: Mm.

Kalyn: So, in 1991, uh, we have Sheri Singer, who was the senior vice president of TV movies for Walt Disney Television, um, was assigned to collaborate with Steve White Entertainment, and this was a new company led by this television executive who had been at NBC before like striking out and creating his own company. Um, they worked together as producers, and they ended up falling in love, and they got married in 1993.

Christine: Aww.

Kalyn: So it started on this like TV executive love story. And around that time, Steve had told Sheri– So he had a daughter from a previous relationship who asked him where all the creatures from Halloween go the rest of the year–

Christine: Aww.

Kalyn: –when it isn’t Halloween. And, um, Nightmare Before Christmas premiered in October of 1993. So that’s probably what everyone is thinking. But she–

Christian: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: –this little girl, did not have the benefit of, uh, knowing Jack Skellington yet.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: But this question that she asked her dad turned into a pitch and then a script, and, uh, then it was rejected [chuckles] several times by many different studios. They shopped it around for years and years. NBC passed on it. Disney Channel passed on it. Um, but then there was sort of a turn in the tides because Disney Channel made Under Wraps.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: I don’t know if y’all are familiar with Under Wraps.

Em: The very first DCOM? Yeah. [chuckles]

Kalyn: It was the first ever DCOM. Thank you.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: Thank you.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: I knew it.

Em: You think I don’t know about Under Wraps?

Kalyn: I knew you would know.

Christian: [laughs] Familiar.

Kalyn: I knew you would have it.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: Um, but once they did that, they were like, “Oh, wait. Uh, I– Turns out kids do love spooky stuff after all. What were we thinking?” And so they circled back to this team who had this idea. And for whatever reason – it was not clear to me in my research – but the original like screenplay had been written with more of like an adult demographic focus. Like it wasn’t even written as a kids’ movie–

Christian: Oh, yeah.

Kalyn: –despite it being a question from a kid–

Christine: Huh.

Kalyn: –which I thought was very strange. Um, but once Disney Channel circled back, they kind of had it re-tooled for a child audience. Um, although the writer of the original screenplay left one little souvenir, which was that he named the Piper kids after his kids.

Em: Aww.

Christine: Aww. That’s cute.

Kalyn: So Marnie and Dylan and Sophie are named after his kids.

Em: Fun.

Christine: Oh, and I even watching that was like, “Those are great names for three siblings.”

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: It just really–

Kalyn: They sound like kids in a ‘90s movie, don’t they?

Christine: Yeah, it does.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: Then Disney Channel brought in, um, director Duwayne Dunham. Uh, he like in his early career was editing for projects like Return of the Jedi, Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks, like in the ‘80s. And that’s something else we love to do on our show is like we see the creative voices that were behind–

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: –like this–

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –like where did they come from and what were they– and then now it’s Halloweentown, you know what I mean? So they’re bringing their vision and that like that ‘80s slant, that like focus–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –into Halloweentown. So those– again, the layers are–

Christine: Oh, that’s cool.

Kalyn: –just all on top of each other. But he had previously directed, um, Homeward Bound. Hate to even bring it up. Painful.

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: Homeward Bound–

Em: [laughs] That’s a rough one.

Christine: [laughs] Trauma.

Kalyn: –The Incredible Journey, [chuckles] and Little Giants.

Christian: We're gonna cover that one day.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: Oh god.

Kalyn: We're definitely gonna get there.

Christine: Good luck.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: I– Yeah, I shudder at the thought, but–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Yeah, I know. [chuckles]

Em: I, I recently, uh, made my, my partner watch it for the very first time. Because–

Christine: Why would you do that?

Em: –she was like, “What are you talking about?” And I was like, “How did you miss this?”

Kalyn: Did she cry the whole time? [chuckles]

Christian: Yeah. How did you not see it? Yeah.

Em: Oh, I– It’s– Now she still, uh, cries anytime I just go, [as Shadow from Homeward Bound] “Peter, I knew you’d come back.”

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christine: You are so focused up.

Em: [as Shadow from Homeward Bound] “I missed you.” [laughs]

Christine: Evil.

Kalyn: Oh god.

Em: [as Peter from Homeward Bound] “He was, he was just too old. He was just too old.”

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Oh jeez.

Christian: Oh my god.

Em: So sad.

Christian: Yeah, we watched that over and over and over.

Kalyn: Painful. Painful.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah, but that’s exactly why we’re here, honestly.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: But after Halloweentown, uh, here’s more DCOM lore. Dwayne Dunham went on to do several more DCOMs: The Thirteenth Year, Double Teamed, Right on Track, Tiger Cruise, Now You See It… So these were all the same director.

Christine: Okay.

Kalyn: He became like a DCOM director.

Em: Yeah. Slam dunk after slam dunk.

Christine: Seriously.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: Nailed it.

Kalyn: Just doesn’t get better.

Christian: But he didn’t direct Luck of the Irish, which is my favorite–

Kalyn: He didn't.

Christian: –DCOM.

Christine: Interesting.

Kalyn: A great DCOM.

Em: I have–

Christian: 'Cause I didn’t grow up with Disney Channel–

Christine: I didn’t either.

Em: Oh?

Christian: –so that’s the only one that I saw. [laughs]

Em: Hm.

Christine: I didn’t either.

Christian: We watched it in school.

Kalyn: It was a school thing.

Christine: I didn’t discover it until I was like 12 or something. It was horrible.

Christian: Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: I have a fun fact about Luck of the Irish that kind of plays into Halloweentown.

Christian: Yeah. Okay.

Christine: Do tell.

Kalyn: Please share.

Em: In Halloweentown High– Halloweentown High, wasn’t that one of the movies?

Kalyn: Uh-huh, yes.

Em: The same high school in that movie is the same as Luck of the Irish.

Christian: Wow, nice.

Kalyn: No way.

Christine: Oh, like the filming location?

Kalyn: Is it– I was gonna say it must be probably in LA? I would imagine.

Em: I don’t know.

Kalyn: Huh.

Em: All I know is I remember watching Luck of the Irish very recently, and I was looking up fun facts, and it said, “Halloweentown–“

Christine: Oh, cute.

Em: –and I was like, “Oh!”

Christian: That’s good.

Kalyn: The fun fact that I saw this St. Patrick’s Day is that there’s the scene where they’re sitting at the Macs, like the big Mac computers, and they’re in a rainbow– like the colors are in the rainbow–

Em: Yeah.

Christian: Oh! [chuckles]

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: –and Ryan is at the like– at the end of the rainbow.

Em: At the end of the rainbow, yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: [gasps]

Christian: I never noticed that.

Kalyn: Amazing.

Christian: That’s awesome.

Christine: Oh my gosh. How fun.

Em: Very fun.

Kalyn: Two for one DCOM fun facts.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: But anyway, they hooked Dwayne in by telling him that he would be working with a $20-$30 million budget. And if you have seen the film, you can probably guess that that’s not what happened.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Um, it was closer to a $4 million budget [chuckles]–

Christine: Okay.

Kalyn: –which is very, very different–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –um, but still obviously incredible for what they were able to do. They shot the entire movie in about 24 days in–

Christine: Wow.

Em: Wow.

Kalyn: –1998 in and around St. Helens, uh, like you mentioned, Em. Uh, they basically took over the whole main square of the town and turned it into Halloweentown. So that’s kind of why it feels like it does because they just–

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: –they just took over the whole– like Stars Hollow, like you said. Like here is this whole town square. Of course, that’s on a lot, but this was just a literal town, functioning, existing, and they’re like, “You know what? We’re just gonna commandeer this space for like three weeks.”

Christine: How did they find that space?

Kalyn: So pretty cool. Great question, and I am–

Christine: Oh.

Kalyn: –not certain. There, there were several locations around St. Helens, and it’s–

[Em raises their hand.]

Kalyn: Let us know, Em.

Em: I don’t, I don’t wanna steal from you, but I thi– I think I have an answer.

Kalyn: Steal.

Em: I just remember like the town recently experiencing like a volcano or something, and it was, uh, th– because of that the town was like pretty abandoned–

Christine: Ohh!

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and so they were so eager for people to–

Kalyn: Hey, yeah.

Em: –they were very excited for people to come in and like hopefully bring in–

Kalyn: Yeah, tourism. And they wanted–

Em: –new tourism.

Kalyn: Wow.

Christine: Whoa.

Christian: Wow.

Kalyn: And that really paid off. 'Cause I was just gonna say– I’m not positive. That’s amazing to hear. I didn’t know. But like they, they have filmed– Like that’s a popular filming location now, or at least somewhat, because in addition to it being the filming location for Halloweentown, uh, it was also the filming location for a lot of Twilight.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Ohh.

Kalyn: Uh, several different Twilight filming locations are right around the corner–

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: –from all of these Halloweentown filming locations in St. Helens. And they still have–

Em: So cool.

Kalyn: –like a Spirit of Halloweentown festival there like in October. I’ve never been. Um, but they– Kimberly J. Brown attends, and last year Jackson Rathbone was there, like Jasper Cullen. Um, so–

Em: I have yet to go, but I’m very– I follow Kimberly J. Brown on TikTok–

Christine: I know. I do too.

Em: –and she always films herself there.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: And, um, she– Apparently every year, they do a pumpkin lighting ceremony in the main square where like–

Christine: Aww.

Em: –they have a replica of the big pumpkin that they bring out, and like the whole town lights it together.

Kalyn: Amazing.

Em: It’s very–

Kalyn: That’s incredible.

Em: –cute.

Kalyn: And the talisman is th–

Christian: You have to. You have to do that.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: You have to.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: That’s–

Kalyn: Why wouldn’t you? And again–

Christian: Well, that’s how you keep, that’s how you keep Kalabar from coming back, you know.

Christine: I was gonna say–

Em: I know.

Christine: –do they– do you think they have a Kalabar every year that comes out like, [spooky voice] “No...”

Christian: [laughs]

Em: I wonder.

Kalyn: They should definitely have a guy in a top hat.

Christine: 'Cause that would be fun.

Em: I wonder ’cause– Well, because they every year invite Kimberly J. Brown there, and she usually–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –hosts the ceremony. So I wonder–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –if she like has to fight someone off. I don’t know. That’d be fun.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christine: So Em, to your point, I just–

Kalyn: We all need to go. Let's just join there this Halloween.

Christine: Honestly, there’s one way to find out. Huh? We all go. Hello?

Em: [laughs] That’s true.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm. Gotta be there.

Christine: We can expense it for work, right? Is that how that works?

Em: 100%.

Christian: Uh-huh. Oh, yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I’m in.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: Write that off on my taxes.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: Yeah, I’m in. I’m down. Need no further convincing.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: There were several other like filming locations. One of which, um, I know Eva had mentioned in the research, the Columbia Theatre was kind of prominent in Halloweentown. That’s also got some haunted history to it. Um, but this was all kind of done in the same few blocks.

Christian: The spookiest setting in the whole movie.

Em: Absolutely.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: It becomes that, for sure.

Christian: It’s very scary in there.

Christine: It is scary.

Em: That was probably where Christine stopped watching.

Kalyn: Real scary.

Christian: I wanna go.

Christine: [laughs] I think it might–

Kalyn: Kalabar’s theatre of propaganda.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: It was probably much earlier than that, but I’d like to think it was at that scene. Yeah. [laughs]

Christian: I wanna go watch Halloweentown in that theater.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: [gasps] You know, they probably do that.

Kalyn: I was about to say it would be in–

Christine: Meta.

Christian: They have to.

Kalyn: It would be such a wasted opportunity if they didn’t.

Christine: Agreed. And they have to have bodies–

Em: They’d probably make so much money if they did.

Christine: –in like every other seat.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: Let’s go– Yeah. Storm the doors.

Christian: [laughs] They have to stage like mum-mummified some–

Kalyn: Let’s make it happen.

Christine: Yeah. [laughs]

Em: Instead of a trailer, they should have the pre-show of like the swirly portal–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: –and a guy comes out and–

Christian: You have to. Yes! [laughs]

Christine: I love.

Em: –re-reenact the whole thing.

Christine: I love it.

Kalyn: Wind machines just in the whole–

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: –the whole atrium.

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: Amazing.

Christian: Such a good idea.

Kalyn: And speaking of Kimberly J. Brown, I, I need to get your opinion on this, Em. Um, how upset were you–

Em: Oh. [sighs]

Kalyn: –about her recasting–

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: –in the later Halloweentown? I–

Em: You didn’t even have to finish the sentence. I was pissed.

Christine: Okay. I didn’t know that. And I find that extremely absurd because she was a fucking star. Like to–

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: A star.

Christine: Like you look at her in that movie and y– I’m like, “Fucking star power.”

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: And I, I went and followed her afterward and was like scrolling all the way through to like old Halloweentowns that she hosted– I was like digging way into her–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: I’m like, “What a delight.” So the fact that they recast her–

Em: I had the biggest crush on her too.

Kalyn: [groans] Oh.

Christine: I also did back in the day, I remember.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: Yeah, same. [laughs]

Em: I was obsessed with her.

Christine: I didn’t understand what it was, but I was like, “I’m weirdly attached to that person,” so.

Em: It’s like, “Why can’t I stop looking at her?”

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: “Why can’t I stop thinking of her?”

Em: “Butterflies everywhere.” Um–

Christine: “Even though I’m so scared of that.”

Kalyn: “Do I wanna be a Cromwell witch or do I wanna be with Marnie?”

Christine: Oh man.

Em: “Do I wanna marry a Cromwell witch?” Yeah.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, exactly.

Em: But no, I, I remember when they recast, and honestly, that’s the reason I didn’t watch “Halloween 3.” I was like, “I–“ or whatever it was.

Christine: Wow, I can’t believe they recast.

Christian: Yeah, of course.

Kalyn: Might as well boycott honestly.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: She didn’t, she didn’t wanna be recast either.

Kalyn: No.

Em: I think she just got too old or something, and they like couldn’t come up with a deal?

Kalyn: So it is literally on record that it– she was recast because they wanted somebody younger in, in the role. Which do you think you’re gonna pull the wool over– Like it had been many years–

Em: Like what am I, an idiot?

Kalyn: –and some of us may have–

Christine: Yeah, seriously.

Kalyn: Yeah, right.

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: Some of us may have aged out, but like we’re not dumb.

Christine: We all have a crush on her.

Christian: To which I say–

Christine: We recognize her. [laughs]

Kalyn: Yeah. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christian: To which I say, make the character older–

Em: Yeah.

Christian: –if it’s a problem.

Kalyn: Yeah. Jump ahead if you want. My–

Christine: How fucking hard is it?

Kalyn: My argument, my whole thing with this, is that sh-she was considered too old to play Marnie. She is literally Marnie’s age. She was 13–

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: –when she played the character of Marnie.

Christian: [laughs] Yeah.

Kalyn: She, she is Marnie. How i–

Em: That’s an incredible point.

Kalyn: How is that– Yeah. How can you–

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: How do you– I don’t understand.

Christine: Hollywood’s fucking batshit crazy.

Kalyn: I don’t know how you can Rubik’s Cube your way out of saying that she’s too old to play the character that she originated, but–

Christine: They know nothing. These people know nothing.

Kalyn: Nothing.

Em: So stupid.

Christian: They don’t know anything.

Christine: They don’t know a thing about art.

Em: And then they keep like all of her siblings, like the, the– everyone else was normally cast.

Christine: Oh!

Kalyn: Yeah, everybody else came back. Everybody else came back.

Christine: That’s nuts.

Em: So her grown-ass brother who had like a deep voice and a beard by the end, he was like the perfect age.

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: He was fine. You’re fine. That’s good. That’s okay.

Em: Crazy.

Christian: Yeah, no, he, he’s a man, so he can do no wrong. Like he’s just– You know what I mean.

Christine: Wow.

Em: Of course.

Kalyn: Mm.

Christian: [laughs] Wait, am I performing too much? Is that–

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christian: –too performative?

Em: No, just right. Just exactly the right amount.

Christine: Don’t worry. We’ll mute you when you’re, when you’re overdoing it. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christian: Well, that’s what I was thinking is like her mom was the same actor–

Em: Yes.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: –same actress, right? So–

Christine: Oh, so everybody’s–

Christian: –she had to pretend to have a new–- a different daughter. Like she’s the same daughter–

Em: At the, at the very least, they should have written in a storyline that like, “Oh, you know, she’s become so powerful they had to disguise her.” like make up something.

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: Yeah, something. [laughs]

Kalyn: Something. That irks me like on sitcoms when they don’t address it.

Christine: They don’t even address it.

Kalyn: Like I think, uh, Fresh Prince may have addressed it when um, Vivian was recast, I think–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –like early on. And I think they’d made a joke. Like they said–

Christine: I feel like sometimes they do–

Kalyn: Oh, Boy Meets World did it.

Christine: –an “in joke”. Yeah.

Em: Oh, Boy Meets World–

Kalyn: Boy Meets World–

Em: That was, that was a masterclass in how you cal–

Christine: Boy Meets World–

Kalyn: Fantastic. 'Cause it was like Morgan–

Em: They–

Kalyn: –has been in timeout for a really long time or something.

Christine: Yes.

Em: And then they redid it–

Christian: Yeah.

Em: I don’t know. I, I also watched The Girl Meets World, The Boy Meets World spin-off.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Me too.

Em: And they, they extra called out the fact that they not only re-cast her as one person, but two people. And they literally had–

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: –both women acting–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –in the scene as one sister, and they would go, “Hey, Morgan,” and both of them would just wave. [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: And it was–

Christian: So funny!

Em: I was like, “Good for them. Like at least calling it out.”

Kalyn: That’s the only way to do it.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: I think–

Christine: Just be a little self-aware.

Christian: –somebody has to do an episode–

Kalyn: You have to. Break, break the fourth wall.

Christian: –on recast women, like in the roles.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Oh, yeah, that’s interesting.

Christian: 'Cause, ’cause that’s where, uh, f– uh, “Fuck Kevin” or whatever the show is called.

Christine: Oh, so good.

Kalyn: Oh, I love that show.

Christian: What’s it called?

Christine: Uh–

Kalyn: Kevin, Kevin Can–

Christine: Kevin Can F**k Himself.

Kalyn: –Can F**k Himself.

Christian: Kevin Can F**k Himself. That’s the whole premise, right?

Christine: It’s–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: That is one of the best shows I think I’ve seen in recent years.

Kalyn: Me too.

Em: Never seen it.

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: Oh?

Christine: Oh, Em, it’s so good.

Kalyn: Gotta go on the list.

Christian: It's good. It’s good. But it comes–

Kalyn: Very much–

Christian: –from the idea that like–

Kalyn: And you jot it down.

Christine: It’s like dark but like absurd.

Christian: –women in these sitcoms are recast.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: And it’s like a sitcom but not. Oh my god, it’s so good.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: Okay, perfect.

Kalyn: We could go in so many directions, but one more direction we have to go in–

Christian: There’s just so much to say. [laughs]

Kalyn: –before we get into the plot of Halloweentown is that, um, the– it’s– you know millennials must know this information. Mark Mothersbaugh, who is from Devo and also the brain behind Rugrats–

Em: Yeah.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –did the score for Halloweentown.

Em: Wait, what?

Christine: The score. Ohh.

Kalyn: Did the score. Mark Mothersbaugh.

Em: Get out. That’s fun.

Christine: Oh, cool.

Kalyn: Yeah. So, if you hear like the Rugrats theme now, every time you hear it, you can think of Halloweentown. [chuckles]

Christine: I love that.

Em: Fun. Fun.

Christine: And I bet you Em hears that s– th-theme song quite a lot.

Em: [begins to sing] Dun–

Kalyn: [softly singing the Rugrats theme song]

Em: Oh, I, I hear, I hear both of them in my head right now.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Right now?

Em: [singing the Rugrats theme song]

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: Yeah, no.

Christine: Wow, superpower.

Kalyn: I was talking to somebody the other day, and I mean, it’s not just because, you know, we talk about it on the podcast all the time, but I truly think so much of my worldview came from Rugrats. Like the way that the adults interact with each other–

Christine: Yep.

Kalyn: –and the weird like tongue in cheek and they’re–

Christine: Yep.

Kalyn: Dr. Lipschitz, and they’re just–

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: Dr. Lipschitz.

Kalyn: You know what I mean? Just–

Christine: Dr. Lipschitz, man.

Kalyn: I learned how grown-ups behave from watching that show, [chuckles] for better or worse.

Christine: And it’s like pretty accurate.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: I often feel like Stu Pickles with the p–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –with the pudding at 4 a.m.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm. “I’ve lost control of my life.”

Christine: With the– Oh my–

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: It’s so relatable.

Christian: Oh, yeah. And they’re like younger than us, but they seem so much older. [laughs]

Christine: Oh, they seem elderly.

Em: They look like they’re 50.

Kalyn: Yeah, I think they’re like 32 or something. Yeah. Stupid.

Christine: So cringe.

Em: I just refuse to– that they would be like invited to a party at my house and we would all be the same age.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Em: I refuse to believe it.

Kalyn: Painful.

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: And really, uh, Halloweentown is about that coming of age, about feeling like you’re ready for something, all that good stuff. Because, um, basically the whole premise of this film is that a 13-year-old girl is having a very relatable, very aggressive, early teen crisis because she knows that there’s something different about her. Uh, she feels stifled by her parent, and she is absolutely convinced that the normal life that she is being like shoehorned into is a scam.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: And she’s correct. She’s fully correct about everything that she thinks and feels.

Christian: Yes.

Kalyn: She goes about it in an interesting way though.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: There is so much, um, nostalgia in these opening scenes.

Christine: I know.

Kalyn: There’s that orange hue that everything had in the ‘90s–

Christine: [sighs]

Kalyn: –and the wind is like whipping up the street–

Christian: Mm.

Em: Oh my god, the glow.

Christian: Love it.

Kalyn: The glow.

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: And there’s a bunch of pop psychology happening in this one suburban house because this really precocious kid is trying to like outsmart her mom.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: And that’s also a trope that we run into on our show all the time is just like– I don’t think they knew how to write another type of kid, you know, in the ‘90s. Like–

Em: Yeah, they’re like wiley. Yeah.

Christine: Like the smart aleck. Yeah.

Kalyn: They're all way too smart.

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: It’s– We, we talked about it in Jumanji with Kir–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Kalyn: –Kirsten Dunst’s character. Like the– they’re just way too smart for their own good, and I’d like to think that that was who we were, you know.

Christian: The dialogue is so punchy.

Christine: The witty, the witty like callbacks and stuff, I’m all about that. Yeah.

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: Marnie’s mom will not let her dress up for Halloween or any of her siblings – not because of razor blades in apples or any kind of Satanic Panic, which is why most of my friends [chuckles] couldn’t participate in Halloween as a kid.

Em: [chuckles]

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Uh, it, it has none of that overtone at all.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: She’s just basically saying that you can’t dress up, and she just refuses to tell Marnie why. She refuses to explain anything at all. And we eventually learn this is due to her own generational trauma being, being forced into like a witchy world that she didn’t tr– being forced into like a witchy world that she didn’t choose. It’s very much like a Troy Bolton like, “No, it’s, it’s your dream, Dad.”

Christine: Troy, yes! [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: It's such a Troy Bolton. Oh my god.

Kalyn: And she just can’t bring herself to explain any of this to Marnie, like, maybe not realizing or knowing if she’s ready–

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: –like just not knowing where that line is, and Marnie is really pushing it.

Em: Mm-hmm

Kalyn: Um, and I, I feel like that happens in most parent-child relationships where there’s this like individuating.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Um, and the parent– like I think the problems in that come from when a parent takes that individuation as like a personal attack.

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: Um, and/or if the children lose sight of the like love that’s underneath the decisions and like why the parent’s doing what they’re doing. Like they both just kind of lose sight of each other’s perspective–

Christine: Mm-hmm

Kalyn: –and it gets really hairy. Uh, it does in this case, for sure. Um, and I love that it’s just a DCOM that’s just like platforming that–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –because we were all this age going through it–

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: –and watching somebody going through it on the screen in a pretty loud way–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –was weirdly empowering, you know?

Christine: And just like getting her– like s– venting and like letting steam o– and like–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: I mean, not to get too into it, but like yeah, that– I didn’t have space to necessarily be that way–

Kalyn: Me neither.

Christine: –and I feel like it was such like a– it’s such a emboldening or like, um–

Kalyn: Yeah, and–

Christine: –validating thing–

Kalyn: Empowering. Validating.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –to see on stage. Yeah. Or on, on screen.

Kalyn: All the above. And I was gonna say that. I was gonna ask ’cause yeah–

Christian: I was shut down immediately if I had any, any opinions on what was happening. I was just like, “Stop.”

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Just–

Christine: That’s–

Kalyn: “Don’t talk back.”

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: “Just do what you’re told.” Like– Yeah, “Don’t talk back.”

Christine: Not for you.

Em: Yeah–

Christian: “You’re being a smartass,” you know? Like all that kind of stuff. It’s like, “I’m just, I’m just being a person. Like I just have–“

Christine: “I just have questions.”

Christian: “–I have thoughts and feelings.”

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: “I’m confused.”

Kalyn: Yeah. Person–

Em: And I wonder as, as I’m getting older and now I’m like I can see like the parental side of things also, I’m like–

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Em: –I, I feel like it’s a second chance to also experience the nostalgia but from a different perspective and be like–

Christine: Oh, from the parent side.

Em: –oh, you just wanted, you just wanted to protect your kid–

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Em: –but then on the flip side the kid like doesn’t feel heard and–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: Like they know that they’re smart enough to be able to probably have these conversations or they think they are, but the parent still sees them as a little kid, and– Like it’s a very–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: And the parent hasn’t reconciled it in themselves–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm

Em: Mm-hmm

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: –so like they don’t know how to handle it. Yeah, wow.

Kalyn: Can’t adjust. Yeah.

Christine: That is pretty dark, you guys.

Kalyn: Nobody’s like able to like compensate or adjust for the other perspective–

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: –and so everybody’s just like mad at each other.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: When in reality, like all parents– Like all adults have been children. Children don’t have the luxury of having been adults.

Christine: Right.

Kalyn: So the parent has to be the one in that case to be like, “You know what? I remember what that’s like"–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –and to try and step outside of themselves. But they’re also doing the really hard job of like parenting and keeping–

Christine: Keeping you alive. Right. [chuckles]

Kalyn: –their kids alive and like making this happen, you know? So it’s–

Em: It’s a thankless job.

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: Being a parent is hard.

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: I don’t like it.

Kalyn: I say that– all of this as a non-parent, completely fully recognizing–

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: –that it is a huge crazy undertaking. Um, and like we say on our show all the time, I think that everybody could benefit from just like, like you said, like looking at it from a different perspective–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –looking back, remembering how it felt for you.

Christian: You have to see both sides.

Kalyn: And another–

Christian: That is something we talk about a lot is like–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: –we’re adults now, so we have to look at it from both perspectives.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Like just like you were saying, Em.

Em: Right.

Christian: It’s like now we’re analyzing things in a very different way than we did 30 years ago. Um–

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: It’s, it’s, it’s tough.

Christine: Whoo...

Christian: There’s a lot of, lot of psychology there.

Kalyn: With the added layer, and we’re gonna get to it in Halloweentown as well, that our parents maybe didn’t go that extra mile.

Em: Right.

Kalyn: They maybe didn’t do that step.

Christian: I don’t think they did, yeah.

Kalyn: So–

Christine: [laughs] I’m certain they did not.

Kalyn: Mm-mmm.

Christian: No.

Christine: Can actively, actively guarantee.

Christian: 'Cause their, their nostalgia stuff is like Andy Griffith, you know?

Kalyn: Mm-hmm

Em: Yeah.

Christian: I mean, their stuff is like–

Kalyn: Completely different values. Completely different.

Christian: –“We know best, and we just tell everybody what to do.” And it’s like– [sighs]

Em: Well, they were also– they were, they were raised to think that when they became parents that it was the, you know, “I’m the boss. Listen to me.”

Christian: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: Right.

Em: But nowadays, I feel like it’s, it’s a little more you’re expected to be open-minded and actively communicative with, with your kid, and–

Christian: Yep.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: So I don’t even know if the movie would be– if the script would be written the same way today.

Kalyn: Right.

Christine: Interesting point.

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: Probably not. And honestly, that’s– This was like the edge of that, you know what I mean? This is the early ‘90s.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: There is that like flip in parenting psychology where, where they’re– like people are at least questioning it. And then look at, you know, how far we’ve come–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –30 years later.

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Kalyn: So, honestly, I wasn’t even sure if I was gonna mention this, but I feel like it’s a valuable allegory because of the way that like Gwen is so like tight-lipped about how she feels and what she’s thinking. She’s not sharing with her kid. Um, I feel like it illustrates the inefficacy of ignorance or like abstinence-based education, if you will.

Em: Mm!

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Like behavioral conditioning.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Yeah, yeah.

Christine: Yeah, like it’s not gonna–

Kalyn: Like you aim to tell– Like–

Christine: She’s not gonna forget it. She’s not gonna drop it.

Kalyn: Yeah. You wanna protect your kids, so you don’t tell them about magic.

Em: But then it makes them curious for it more. Yeah.

Kalyn: Or like sex or drugs or whatever thing. Um–

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: Totally.

Kalyn: Um, and that ignores the reality–

Christian: But all the commercials are so juicy, and there’s so much liquid.

Christine: [laughs] “They’re so juicy, and they–”

Em: [laughs] Yeah.

Kalyn: There’s so much to understand in this life. There’s so much to figure out.

Christian: “What do you mean?” [chuckles]

Kalyn: Um, and yeah, if your kid is gonna step into that reality eventually, which by the way, they all will, um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –i-is it not better to like give them something foundational–

Christine: You should arm them with knowledge.

Kalyn: –rather than ignoring it? 'Cause I know–

Em: 100%.

Kalyn: –in some circles or families or like regions of the country – we’re from Alabama – um–

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: –it’s presented as if like sex education, for example, will lead to an increase in sexual behavior–

Christine: Right.

Kalyn: –and that kind of fear-based thinking has been used over decades to like shape policy and curriculum. And actual science and like research shows the exact opposite.

Christine: And laws.

Christian: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: It’s if you, if you educate kids, if you give them tools, if you give them information, they’re gonna use those tools and that information to make better decisions.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: And to me, it feels like common sense.

Christine: I was gonna say–

Kalyn: But again–

Christine: –what a shocking s– what a shocking thing to learn.

Kalyn: For–

Em: But such a good point that it absolutely mirrors that of just like–

Christine: It does.

Em: –“Well, I’m not gonna tell you, and then I’m gonna be surprised when you’re curious about it ’cause I didn’t inform you.”

Kalyn: Mm-hmm. Right.

Christian: Uh-huh.

Christine: Uh-huh. When you act out or whatever, yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: And in Marnie’s case, it’s something inherent within her, you know? She’s like, “I feel pretty magical, Mom.”

Christine: Totally.

Kalyn: “I don’t know. Like this just feels like it’s me.”

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: And she’s like, “No.”

Christine: “I wish you can equate to hormones or any other thing–“

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: “–that’s happening that’s out of control and you’re like, ‘help.’” Yeah, exactly.

Em: “I’m turning 13 soon, and all of a sudden, these, these feelings in my body are telling me I’m a witch. I don’t know.”

Kalyn: Thank you.

Christine: “I have a crush on Marnie–“

Kalyn: Thank you.

Christine: “–and I’m scared of the movie she’s in–“

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Christine: “–but I keep staring at her.” That was my own problem.

Em: [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Anyway. But yeah, we’ve all been there.

Kalyn: We’ve all been there. And ignorance is also always far more easily manipulated than knowledge.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Mm, interesting.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: So if you know what you’re doing, it’s gonna be less– You know, imagine if Marnie had fallen in with the wrong crowd in Halloweentown.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Oh.

Em: She could have become a–

Kalyn: Imagine if she was just a minion of Kalabar.

Christine: [groans]

Em: I know it.

Christian: That’s true. Oh, all too– [sighs]

Christine: You’d hate to see it.

Christian: Far too easily.

Christine: Far too easy.

Kalyn: Just ’cause she didn’t know. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Christian: I think this was a sticking point in our own episode ’cause we’ve actually covered this before. We did a full–

Christine: You have?

Kalyn: We did it for Halloween.

Christian: –a full episode on it.

Kalyn: We did like a big– Yeah.

Christian: But we, we, we tend to cover Halloween movies in October for like spooky season, and we do like a big, a big–

Kalyn: 'Cause we’re doing spooky stuff all the time.

Christian: –you know, whole thing.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: [laughs] Yeah.

Christian: Hey, but we’re halfway to Halloween.

Christine: I know.

Christian: We’re halfway right now.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christian: So this is like the perfect time to do this. But–

Christine: My daughter’s birthday is October 1st.

Christian: Nice.

Christine: So every April Fool’s Day, I’m like, “We’re, we’re halfway–“

Kalyn: Halfway.

Christian: We’re halfway there. [laughs]

Christine: “–to spooky season.” [chuckles]

Christian: Yeah. But like growing up, I went to, um– So I grew up Baptist at church–

Christine: Cool.

Christian: –but I went to a Church of Christ school.

Kalyn: You were Baptist at church and you were something else ot– [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: Right.

Christian: And when I wasn’t at either one, I wasn’t either one.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: Um, but yeah, I kept– You know, because of all the media, every show, everything–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: –had like a sex education moment in school–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christian: –and I kept waiting for that time to come.

Kalyn: For that time. [chuckles] You were like, “When’s my time?”

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: “When are they gonna tell– What–“

Christine: “Surely it’ll happen.”

Christian: We never got to watch any videos.

Kalyn: Nothing.

Christian: We never learned anything about anything.

Kalyn: Mm-mmm. No.

Christian: And, uh, it was very, it was very, um, disappointing and confusing.

Christine: We learned, um, really interesting stuff about how Jesus was involved when you got pregnant. So I was like–

Christian: Oh, yeah? He’s like there?

Christine: –“Oh, that’s even worse.” Yeah. [chuckles]

Kalyn: Yeah, that–

Christian: Yeah?

Christine: It’s sort of like I didn’t get–

Em: It’s always a threesome when Jesus is involved.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: Uh-huh, that’s right.

Christine: It’s true. It’s true. I didn’t get a lack of information. I got like completely like all bu– bad, wrong information–

Christian: Very conflicting.

Kalyn: Misinformation.

Christine: –harmful information.

Em: You were very informed just in a very wrong way. [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: Very informed. [laughs] Very mis– Very misinformed. Yeah. There– That’s good.

Kalyn: Wow.

Em: [laughs] Yeah.

Christian: That kind of works though because we were alway– We couldn’t have school dances because they were sinful.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Of course.

Christian: S– Dancing with the opposite sex was sinful for some reason.

Christine: Deeply.

Christian: Um, they never talked about dancing–

Em: [sighs]

Christian: –with the same sex–

Christine: Ah.

Christian: –because that was just unspeakable.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: But, um–

Christine: God forbid.

Em: Of course.

Christian: –they always said you have to leave room for the Holy Spirit.

Christine: Of course.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: You know? So you’re kinda, you know, dancing, the Holy Spirit’s there. When you’re having sex, Jesus is there, so.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It's an orgy.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: I–

Christian: It’s–

Kalyn: Really it escalates.

Christian: All the way around.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I’m just throwing a fun fact in because I only learned it, uh, not too long ago. But so I recently started taking queer line dancing on the weekends.

Christian: Oh, nice!

Em: And one of the– I didn’t realize that there was like such a queer history to line dancing, but it was because dancing with the same sex was so sinful–

Kalyn: [gasps]

Christine: Aww.

Em: –that a bunch of queer people started agreeing to go line dancing together.

Kalyn: Oh my–

Em: So they were technically–

Christine: Aw.

Em: You wouldn’t know if they were dancing together or by themselves.

Kalyn: That is– Favorite fact of the episode.

Em: Yeah. And so–

Christian: That’s amazing.

Kalyn: And they don’t even line dance in Ho– in, uh, Halloween. [chuckles]

Em: Line dancing is actually very gay, so.

Kalyn: Wow, very gay.

Christine: I love that.

Kalyn: I saw–

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: I saw they’re having a line dancing– like a free line dancing class like in, in our town tomorrow, and I was literally considering it. And now it makes me wanna go even more.

Em: There you go.

Christine: You know what? My local bookstore, which is like super like, uh, very progressive, and, and they do a lot of queer events, they’re having a queer line dancing event.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: So I, I guess maybe that’s catching on–

Christian: That’s so fun.

Christine: –that fact, Em.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: I love that.

Christine: That's so cool.

Em: I–

Christine: I just put that together.

Kalyn: The more you know.

Em: I, I had no idea. And then someone said it–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –and they were– They, they said it in class, and they were like, “Well, as you all know, it’s very gay.” And I went–

Christine: As everyone knows.

Em: –“It’s very gay in this room. What are you talking about?” [chuckles]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Em: I had no idea. But yeah. So that’s my only, uh–

Christian: I know a lot of people who don’t know that.

Kalyn: That’s so cool. Yeah.

Em: Yeah, yeah.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kalyn: I can’t wait to tell everyone.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: I know. I can’t wait to share this. [chuckles]

Christine: In Alabama, the news is spreading.

Em: It’s like, “Oh my god, are you two dancing together? I, I can’t tell.” Yeah.

Christian: Blow some minds.

Christine: “Are you together?” [chuckles]

Kalyn: 'Cause yeah, we did– Like they’re– The only kind of dancing– It was like, you know, the “Cupid Shuffle,” the “Cha-Cha Slide.” Like there were certain line dances–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: –and for the opposite– Like because you’re not close together, those were the only ones we were allowed to do. So I can’t wait to tell everyone I know.

Christine: That’s a fun fact.

Em: Yeah. I’m very happy to–

Kalyn: We have gays to thank for that.

Christian: Wow.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: [chuckles] Just, just contributing where I can, so.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: And speaking of the gays – I mean, we don’t know for sure – but enter Grandma Aggie, who is a beautiful–

Christine: Oh! [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: –wonderful, incredible icon of a Cromwell witch. Um, she shows up unannounced. She’s got a bag of candy. She’s got some cursed artifacts, and she has no respect at all for Gwen’s like, “no Halloween, no magic, no nothing.”

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Em: She has no time for that bullshit.

Kalyn: No–

Christine: A bag of candy that moves–

Kalyn: –and I respect it, frankly. I do.

Christine: –and also no respect.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: She gets to the house and within minutes she has them in Halloween costumes, which wasn’t allowed previously. And she has them reading this bedtime story, and she’s like, “By the way, witches are real. Just, just so you know.”

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] “And what are the odds this one in the book looks exactly like you?”

Christine: Oh, weird.

Kalyn: “What are– Here, look at– Look here.” Uh, fun fact, Kimberly J. Brown got to keep that prop, I’m pretty sure–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Fun.

Kalyn: –which is cool.

Christine: That’s sweet.

Kalyn: 'Cause it was modeled after her, which is awesome.

Em: Fun.

Kalyn: Um, but, but Aggie says–

Christian: What did the new actress get when she was re-cast?

Christine: Yeah. What– That–

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: Sara Paxton, stick to your–

Christian: [blows a raspberry and makes a thumbs-down]

Kalyn: –stick to your mermaid–

Christine: [blows a raspberry]

Kalyn: –and stick to your Aquamarine-ing. You know what I mean?

Em: They should, they should have shown that book in the, in the one where Sara Paxton is it and just her face like paper– like just glued onto–

Kalyn: Yeah, cut out and– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –this little stick figure.

Christian: Just to show how ridiculous it is. Yeah.

Kalyn: God.

Christine: Yeah. How insane this is.

Kalyn: If there is ever a Halloween r– Halloweentown reboot, I really hope they have heard our commentary–

Christine: Yes, I hope so.

Em: I hope so.

Kalyn: –because that’s a great idea.

Christian: There needs to be like a DCOM spoof. Like, you know, there’s like Scary Movie and–

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: Oh!

Christian: –all these like spoo– you know, satire films.

Kalyn: Oh my god. Can we make one?

Christine: That would be very fun.

Christian: They should do a DCOM satire–

Kalyn: Oh my god.

Christian: –movie and just like–

Kalyn: A satire DCOM?

Em: That’d be hysterical.

Christine: I think that would go over really well.

Kalyn: I can’t wait.

Christian: It’d be so good.

Em: It’d be like how Scary Movie is about all the scary movies out there but it’s like just–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: You gotta trademark it, Christine.

Em: They should do a DCOM Scary Movie.

Christine: Yeah. Well, I, I would except Disney’s–

Christian: Absolutely.

Christine: –really a little bit scary, I think, in a– in a real way. I feel like they’ll probably fucking destroy us.

Em: [chuckles]

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: That's true. That’s true. You’re right, huh?

Christine: I mean–

Kalyn: Yeah, I guess we can’t TM, TM that.

Christine: We'll see if I have the bandwidth for it.

Christian: There are ways around this.

Kalyn: They can hire us.

Christian: We’ll hire a good lawyer.

Kalyn: They can hire us is really what we’re asking, Disney.

Christine: Ohh. Okay.

Kalyn: We don’t mean we’re gonna do it without you.

Christine: We would never do it without you.

Kalyn: We would never do it without you.

Em: Mm-mmm.

Kalyn: We want you to do it with us.

Christine: We’re on your side.

Kalyn: We– Yeah.

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: Because Halloweentown is a magical place where lots of different sorts of people live together in peace–

Christine: In harmony.

Kalyn: –and can’t we do the same?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: That’s beautiful.

Kalyn: Can’t we do the same?

Em: Utopia.

Kalyn: Um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –[chuckles] Aggie says that all of these spooky creatures that call Halloweentown home are just like everyone else. Some are kind, some are mean, and it’s just all in the way that they use their magic. And she says, “Sometimes the slimiest, raunchiest, ugliest little monsters turn out to be the nicest”–

Em: Aw.

Kalyn: –and that’s just true.

Christine: I just love that.

Kalyn: It’s a universal truth.

Em: Love it.

Kalyn: But–

Christian: And that was my, my, my glow up arc as well.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: You’re like, “That’s how they described me back in the day.”

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Mm.

Kalyn: That’s how I feel. But through this conversation and another with Gwen, Aggie basically reveals that Marnie is reaching this magical expiration date because on her 13th Halloween, um, if she doesn’t start her, her training–

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: –to be a Cromwell witch, then she loses her powers forever. So Gwen was almost there.

Em: No pressure.

Christine: No pressure. [chuckles]

Kalyn: No pressure at all on a middle school kid.

Em: It’s a little like reverse puberty. It’s kind of like you have–

Christian: I was gonna say–

Em: –until 13 and–

Kalyn: And then it stops.

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: Can you imagine if you just lost– [chuckles]

Christine: That’s so sad.

Christian: –all your sexual ability if you just didn’t use it?

Kalyn: And Marnie was within hours of losing it. Gwen was within hours of having victoriously shepherded her child.

Em: Well, no wonder she showed up. She super flew there. She went, “I gotta figure–“

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “We have to do something now.”

Kalyn: “A couple hours? We gotta fix this.” And, uh–

Em: Crazy.

Kalyn: –she sure tried. And of course, Marnie overhears all this. And so she is like, “I’m going to another dimension tonight. That’s what’s gonna happen 'cause it’s now or never.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: So she and Dylan and Sophie, they all sneak out, and they follow Aggie onto this flying bus. There is no Miss Frizzle to be found. I checked.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: Um, but we’re in Halloweentown now, and this is where we’re getting to see all of these creatures of Halloween. There’s witches, goblins, skeletons, vampires–

Christian: Mm.

Kalyn: –um, the whole roster of Spirit Halloween costumes essentially.

Christine: [chuckles]

Kalyn: But they’ve got jobs, they’ve got an economy. Like things are popping in Halloweentown.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christian: If only.

Kalyn: But they’re, they’re–

Christian: If only I could just go.

Em: That easy.

Christine: [sighs]

Kalyn: Aggie is like explaining to the kids like how Halloweentown came to be and basically said that the people that started human Halloween imitated the traditions of these creatures – “like mortal see, mortal do.”

Em: Mm.

Kalyn: Um, and she says this was actually how the kid’s parents met because Gwen crashed a mortal Halloween party.

Christine: That’s right.

Kalyn: So this witch is like dying to live her mortal life, and she crashes a mortal Halloween party.

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: So, can you imagine if you’re the dad, if you’re her, her husband, you’re meeting a witch at a Halloween party. Cute, good costume, whatever. And then you, you like– The next day you find out, “Oh, wait, that’s not a costume.”

Christine: It wasn’t a costume.

Kalyn: [chuckles] This is–

Em: That’s like waking up the next day going, “What did I do?”

Kalyn: Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: But it’s like, no, but like really cool. Like in a really cool way.

Kalyn: Really cool way.

Christian: It’s like, “Well, I really did it, didn’t I?”

Kalyn: In a magical way.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh boy.

Christian: Wow.

Kalyn: And basically–

Christian: Wowie, wowie.

Kalyn: –they decided to, uh– Humans and monsters didn’t mix because humans were the real monsters, if you can imagine.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Uh, they marginalized these monsters. They made it hard for them to exist. And so they kind of made it miserable in return. They’re retaliating. Um, and this retaliation on the monsters’ part was turning them evil, which Aggie is very clear and makes sure to say, which they were not evil.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: That was not who they were. So they decided to just distance themselves. Very healthy. Take some space.

Em: Boundaries.

Kalyn: And they created a whole new world which is Halloweentown. And she said this distance allowed the monsters to like settle down and have homes and childrens and jobs and an expert bowling league.

[all chuckle]

Kalyn: And I don’t know if it’s–

Em: Every, every community has one, so.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: All of them. And I don’t know if it’s sad or sweet that when they are like safe and like not oppressed and not being hunted for sport, all any of these magical metaphysical creatures actually wanted in the first place or aspired to have was a human life. [chuckles]

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Oh!

Kalyn: That’s all they wanted.

Christian: Right?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Jeez.

Christine: Like a, a house and a family and a bowling league.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Oh my god.

Kalyn: That’s all they wanted–

Em: Oh my god. Yeah.

Kalyn: –all these goblins and ghouls.

Christine: Whoa.

Kalyn: But that normal life did not last because now people are acting strange. There’s this undercurrent of fear. Aggie says that the residents are changing. They’re becoming hostile or disappearing–

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: –um, not unlike America right now, though it’s not usually the same neighbors that are becoming hostile as the ones who are disappearing.

Christine: Right. [chuckles]

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Keep that straight.

Christine: Slightly different allegory. Yes.

Kalyn: Different, different thing.

Em: Wow. Very, very profound what you just said. Yeah.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: [sighs] Um, but she suspects that there is some kind of dark force behind this change, and Aggie needs help to combat it, especially from Gwen, who has now fully rejected all of her magical identity. So there’s this generational guilt trip.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: She tries to put it on Gwen that she needs help, and Gwen says that there are plenty of other witches that could do this, and Aggie basically says like, “You know how it is today. Nobody wants to get involved.” And that made me take pause ’cause I’m like–

Christine: Ooh.

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: –“Hey, hey, everybody, get involved, by the way, get involved.”

Christine: Whoa, that just had like a ripple effect in my–

Em: Yikes. Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Whoa.

Kalyn: Nobody, nobody wants to fight a fight that’s not theirs–

Christine: Nobody wants to get involved.

Kalyn: –but you have to recognize that–

Christine: [gasps]

Kalyn: –like first they came for the–

Christine: Exactly.

Kalyn: Like, next they’re–

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: First they came for the goblins.

Christine: It’s all our fight.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: Then they came for the witches.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: At the end of the line– Like you’re in there somewhere.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Everybody that you care about is in there somewhere now.

Christian: It’s not your fight now, but it will be your fight–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: –later.

Kalyn: Which makes it your fight now is how I feel.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: I agree.

Christian: Right. It has become your fight.

Em: I mean, you’re o– exactly talking to the very right audience, so– [chuckles]

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Em: –we’re with you.

Christian: Hey.

Kalyn: That’s the hope. That’s the hope. And us, us too.

Christian: Um–

Kalyn: Yeah!

Christian: –I wore my “ban the fascists” shirt for this reason today.

[Christian holds his brown t-shirt up so the full print is visible. An orange cartoon book is standing with outstretched arms, smiling, with sparkles around it. Arched over the book it says “ban the fascists” in capital letters.]

Christine: Oh, I love that.

Em: Excellent.

Christine: It’s so whimsical.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: That was a birthday gift, wasn’t it?

Christian: Yeah, you got me–

Kalyn: Did I get you for that? Like a birthday or Christmas–

Christian: You got it for me.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: Oh, I love that.

Em: Love it.

Christine: I love that little whimsical book on it.

Kalyn: It’s a good one.

Christian: I know. He’s so happy. [holds the shirt up again]

Christine: [chuckles]

Kalyn: Cartoon guy.

Christine: Just going about a day.

Kalyn: Yeah, he lives in a world without fascists. Imagine.

Em: [sighs] Yeah.

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: [chuckles]

Kalyn: But Gwen, Gwen wanted to have a normal life, right? We talked about that earlier. That was really where she was going. She wanted to be free of whatever like danger or chaos that she associates with this magical world. And she felt like she could protect her kids from that if she could just keep them guessing until after their 13th birthdays. But she didn’t tell them the truth, and now the truth is showing up anyway, like it does for all of us.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: So–

Em: I mean, imagine finding out on your 14th birthday you could have been a witch and live in Halloween world.

Kalyn: That you could have been a witch.

Em: Like, are you kidding me?

Kalyn: [groans]

Christine: Oh, it’s so sad.

Em: Oh my god

Christian: “I’m stuck here? With this shit? What do you mean?”

Kalyn: Just missed it. [chuckles]

Christine: Lame.

Em: And as a c– In college, they’re like, “I don’t talk to my mom. I really can’t get into it. But it’s like it’s really complicated. It happened in high school. She basically–"

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: “–told me I can’t– I was once a witch.”

Kalyn: Yeah. “Yeah, I can’t go there.”

Christine: Oh, I would be really rough. Can’t go there.

Em: “You wouldn’t understand. It’s like a really like insi– insular family thing.”

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: “Deep family thing.” [chuckles]

Christine: Super niche.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: [chuckles] So Marnie takes it upon herself because her mom is, you know, not gonna engage. She wants to help her grandmother and, you know, her, her people, her kind, um, and that involves activating this ancient talisman. They say it’s Merlin’s talisman, which is a nice touch, I think.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Um, it’s this ancient thing, but it needs a very specific witches brew, which is made from scratch, not the boxed witches brew that Aggie–

Em: Right.

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: –tried out in the microwave that had like the “bubble, bubble, toil, and trouble” settings–

Christine: That was so funny.

Kalyn: –on the microwave–

Christian: Yeah.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: –my favorite joke in the whole movie.

Em: Of course.

Christine: It’s so good.

Kalyn: And then they run around Halloweentown, collecting all these ingredients. They go to get werewolf– like locks of hair from a werewolf from a salon.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: They get ghost sweat from a sauna, which don’t– you can’t think too hard about that. Like on our show–

Christine: That one–

Kalyn: –we think too hard about a lot of things–

Christian: We do.

Christine: Yeah, that one was–

Kalyn: –and sometimes we just have to let it be.

Christine: And hon– I, I–

Em: I think since childhood I’ve thought too hard about that when I was like–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: That one was–

Em: –“How are we g–“

Christine: –rough.

Kalyn: The ghost– Why does a ghost need to be at a sauna in the first place?

Christian: 'Cause, ’cause, we said ghost tears.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Yeah, ghost tears would have been better.

Christine: Great point.

Christian: Why not ghost tears?

Kalyn: Ghosts are upset, sad, as a trope.

Christine: Make a ghost cry and catch a tear.

Christian: Yeah, they’re dead.

Em: Unfinished business, yeah.

Christine: That’s like good. Yeah, the sweat thing was weird. Especially ’cause he like lost all that weight and then like–

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: –did you see that at the end, he’s like, “Oh, my pants are so–“

Kalyn: That had–

Christine: I’m like, I like that they gave everybody kind of a bit. Like I wrote in my notes like, “Oh, I love that every–“ Like the f– The kind of– Oh, sorry. The off-the-wall characters kind of all got like their moment, and I love that.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like the barber–

Kalyn: It’s cute.

Christine: Like the hair salon werewolf–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: –had his like lines. I was like, “I love all these speaking roles.” But then with that damn ghost in the s–

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: I was like, “Okay, it’s getting weirder by the second”–

Kalyn: Why?

Christine: –and it’s like a bunch of children with this like presumably naked ghost man?

Kalyn: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I was like, “Why are we just standing around with this guy in the sauna?”

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: And they’re trying to like–

Em: Yeah. Yeah.

Christine: –like touch him.

Christian: It got dark fast.

Em: The– Shockingly, of–

Christine: It’s super weird.

Em: –of everything, uh, based in Halloweentown, that’s the one thing I just can’t logically justify.

Kalyn: Mm-mmm.

Em: Everything else made sense to me.

Kalyn: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah, that one was a kind of weird offbeat one, but anyway.

Kalyn: I, I agree. And it had like a similar tone like to, um– I thought of Casper, but I thought of like the uncles. Like Casper Meets Wendy Casper where they’re just–

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: –all the ghosts are kind of bum– And that’s the kind of world where a ghost would go to a sauna, I guess.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Right. Yes.

Christian: Uh-huh.

Kalyn: You know?

Christine: The vibe was–

Kalyn: And it wouldn’t feel so like off. But this was also–

Christine: And they called it like a “sweat box.”

Kalyn: There’s so much that was earnest about it that the punch of that was just not– it didn’t–

Christine: It was odd. It felt like kind of like slapstick. Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah, didn’t hit.

Em: It felt like it was a clip from back when the show was supposed to be darker and–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm. More–

Christine: And it was supposed to have some like–

Kalyn: –more grown up, more– Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –adult jokes. Yeah.

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: That’s a good point.

Kalyn: And instead what that results in is a bunch of kids standing there, waiting for a ghost to sweat.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: [chuckles] I don’t like it.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah.

Kalyn: I just don’t like it.

Christine: Just doesn’t quite track.

Kalyn: And throughout all of these moments, this movie just keeps threading in these little warnings. There are these characters that like know too much.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Like they know stuff they shouldn’t know, and people are like acting off, and there’s this sense that they’re being watched. And there’s this guy, Luke. He’s a local bad boy.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: Um, he’s especially suspicious ’cause he’s going between like flirting with Marnie and these weird vague threats.

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah.

Kalyn: Um, at one point he calls himself a “big cheese”–

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: –which–

Christine: I love that.

Kalyn: –is not a move I would recommend upon approach. Like–

Em: Nope.

Christine: It didn't work.

Kalyn: –wouldn’t go there.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Um, this is our second date, Em–

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: –so I can– I, I feel like I can now say that I’m a big cheese and that should be impressive to you.

Em: It’s now a safe place to say that. Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: But we made it here. You know, we earned it, you know.

Em: We did, we did.

Christine: You did.

Kalyn: Luke had not earned it yet. Um–

Christine: It’s the payoff, you know.

Kalyn: But when–

Christian: Kind of a big cheese.

Kalyn: When Marnie–

Christine: Kind of a big cheese around here. [chuckles]

Kalyn: [chuckles] When Marnie rejects him, like any like burgeoning, maladaptive misogynist should be rejected–

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: –he immediately–

Em: Wow. Amen.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: –channels this attraction into anger.

Christine: It was like, wow, okay. Really written out plainly for us there.

Kalyn: Uh-huh.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah. It was like, “This is gonna be important by the way”–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –um, because he knows some very powerful creatures, which I’m sure, um, a lot of, a lot of folks are hearing stuff like that on the dating apps.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: “You, you haven’t heard the last of me,” you know?

Em: Right.

Kalyn: That kind of energy, it just like– Mm.

Christine: Ugh.

Em: Mafioso energy.

Kalyn: Not a good look, not a good look.

Christine: Like, “You’ve crossed me now,” and it’s like–

Kalyn: Right.

Christine: –“Whoa. Nobody–“

Em: “Like what are you, the Sopranos?”

Kalyn: “All I did was say no.”

Christine: Yeah. No, yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah, right?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Uh-uh.

Kalyn: But meanwhile, Gwen shows up in Halloweentown. Maybe a product of like a “do you know where your kids are?” PSA–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –and she’s like, “Oh, you know what? I don’t.” Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And she is watching–

Em: And she– I like as she went, “I know just where those little twerps went, for sure.”

Christine: Immediately. And sh–

Kalyn: Yeah, immediately she recognizes–

Christine: She’s watching like infomer– like, like the world’s worst infomercials and just like eating candy.

Kalyn: She was– Yeah, she’s eating a candy that, that Aggie brought.

Christine: Like, I, I do feel really– like I relate to that ’cause that is what I do when Leona goes to bed, and I’m like, “Oh my god, moms d– never change, I guess.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Kalyn: Never.

Christine: We just eat candy and zone out. [chuckles]

Kalyn: On the little, the little tiny kitchen TV, and she’s just–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I love that for her.

Kalyn: God, it’s so good. The glow. That– That’s a ‘90s glow too.

Christine: That’s a glow.

Kalyn: You know what I mean?

Christian: Yeah. Right.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Like the kitchen TV.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: I didn’t even have one, but like I know what that, I know what that feels like.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: I know. It’s magical.

Kalyn: And speaking of a glow, uh, we next find ourselves at, uh, Kalabar’s propaganda theater.

Christine: [gasps]

Kalyn: Um–

Em: Uh-huh.

Christian: Mm.

Christine: Propaganda.

Kalyn: –Aggie is here. Gwen is here. Um, and they end up having to confront this dark force, which we learn is Kalabar later.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Um, and they lose, which was also surprising, I guess, watching it as a kid because there’s this moment of “oh no.” Um, Kalabar freezes–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –Aggie and Gwen, and they’re stuck there, staring at the screen, eyes forever fixed– which that’s another like allegorical thing that we, we might get to. I don’t know.

Christine: It’s really Clockwork Orange.

Kalyn: But like they’re in a theater–

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kalyn: –locked into this propaganda that they’re watching to brainwash them–

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: –into something that they aren’t, these creatures from Halloweentown–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –and now Aggie and Gwen.

Em: It’s very on the nose, very on the nose.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Very on the nose. And it is another like foundational ‘90s kids’ film convention which is basically dismiss the adults, like remove the safety net.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: They’re no longer– They’re not here to help you anymore. Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah. They’re gonna exit stage left–

Christine: They can’t save you.

Kalyn: –and now you have to handle it. Like you have to, you have to grow.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: We talked to D. J. MacHale, who was the creator of Are You Afraid of the Dark?, on our show–

Christine: [gasps]

Kalyn: –and he made a point to mention that where he was like, “Really the beginning– the question in every episode was, ‘How do we get rid of the parents?’”

Em: Yeah, sure.

Kalyn: “‘Like where do we put them–‘”

Em: Sure.

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: “‘–so that the kids can grow?’”

Christine: That’s such a good point.

Christian: Yeah. 'Cause, ’cause the kids have to realize that they are resourceful, that they have within them–

Christine: They’re the main character, yeah. Yeah.

Christian: –what they need to, you know, beat–

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: –whatever monster of the week this is.

Em: Part of–

Christine: And I guess that’s like an ancient trope. Harry Potter even– not an– that that’s ancient, but I mean, you know, going back and back–

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christian: Sure.

Christine: –like Harry Potter, all the young adult–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: Well, also they’re always in this I–

Christian: Yeah, they’re always on their own. Yeah.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I feel like, at least in this movie, it also plays into, by the end, not only do they feel more that they have autonomy and that they, you know, can be taken seriously, but at the end of Halloweentown, the parents finally respect the children’s opinions–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and, “Oh, you– I should not look at you as a little kid anymore.”

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: “I can rely on you, and you’re, you’re owed information.” Yeah.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Right. Yeah.

Christian: Mm.

Kalyn: Like, “I should respect you more.” Like I–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: There’s this– Yeah. There’s respect that gets earned like through these journeys. Like the hero’s journey. It’s the hero’s journey but like in a tiny little like familial way, you know?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: Um, and it’s also funny because they also kind of dilute this moment. Like Aggie– Whenever they’re struck with this magic, Aggie says the words, “We’ll be all right. It’s just an evil spell that freezes us.”

[Christine, Em, and Christian laugh.]

Kalyn: “We’re not dead, by the way.” Um–

Christine: “We’re not dead, by the way.” [chuckles]

Christian: “We’re gonna be fine.”

Kalyn: She– Like she could have looked at the camera, like the– look at the–

Christine: That was for me. That was for kids like me–

Kalyn: That was for the viewers. Right.

Em: [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: –yeah, who was so scared and was like, “Did she die?”

Em: “It’s just pretend. We're not really dead. We just look it.” Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah. “We’re just playing dead on TV. It’s not real.”

Christine: “I’m closing my eyes.” Oh my god. That’s what I needed.

Kalyn: God, it was really–

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: It was heavy-handed in a way–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –that most DCOMs– I don’t feel like they were so much in that way. But it was also– It became funny to me looking back at it.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Well, I think early on– ’Cause I think it was like one of the like first like five DCOMs out there, so I think they didn’t have a real rule system yet–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: –on like how–

Christine: Oh, the formula.

Em: –how dark we can go.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kalyn: How, how dark– And I mean, that stayed a question mark, I feel like, for a long time.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: So.

Christian: That's true of much of the media that we cover.

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: It’s like this was the first time they were doing a lot of this stuff.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Yeah, testing the waters.

Christian: So they were kind of figuring it out.

Kalyn: There wasn’t– Yeah, there was not a yard stick. There was not a ruler. They had to kind of make it up as they went along–

Christian: There wasn’t even–

Christine: Kind of winging it.

Kalyn: –and then like hope they didn’t go too far.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: And then that’s what we find often is that you kinda did–

Christine: Oops.

Kalyn: –but it might have turned out okay.

Christian: Yeah.

Em: [chuckles]

Christian: For like a lot of TV in that era, there, um, there wasn’t really like the TV rating system yet.

Em: Mm-mmm.

Christian: They actually invented that–

Christine: Ohh.

Christian: I think they invented it for Power Rangers. Does that– Didn’t we say something like that?

Em: Really?

Christine: Oh, that feel–

Kalyn: I f– We talked about it, and I’m blanking, but yeah.

Christine: It was so– It was something like that.

Christian: We talked about that in our Power Rangers episode. It was around that time.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Fascinating.

Christian: Um, so there was nothing like really–

Christine: Stopping them. [chuckles]

Kalyn: Nothing– Right.

Christian: They were just sort of tr– They were just trusting these like “kids networks,” you know, “kid-friendly programming.” They were just like, “Well, that’s for kids, so it’s safe.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Well, that’s why I feel like I got so traumatized ’cause my parents were like, “It says it’s for kids. Here you go.”

Kalyn: Mm-hmm. Same. That–

Christian: Yeah, right. Yeah.

Kalyn: That is– Pretty much could be the tagline of our whole show. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And I would be like, “What?” [chuckles]

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah, no, my, my ultra-religious aunt, thank god, gave me a DVD of The Goonies when I was a little–

Christine: Oh, wow.

Christian: –I guess it was a VHS technically way back when–

Kalyn: Yeah, it would’ve had to have been.

Christian: –but she had no idea what it was about, uh, thankfully.

Christine: Oh, I love that.

Kalyn: “This has– Like this has kids on the cover. Here you go.”

Christian: She was like, “This is a bunch of little boys going on an adventure.”

Christine: It’s like when they misread the situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christian: You know, she probably saw on TV. Um–

Kalyn: That’s how Labyrinth was for me at my grandparents’ house.

Christine: [gasps]

Kalyn: It was like, “This looks like fantasy.”

Christian: Yeah. [laughs]

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Kalyn: “Kids with–“

Christine: Yeah. Bye.

Kalyn: “There’s puppets in here. That's for kids.”

Christian: “Here’s, here’s David Bowie’s crotch.” [laughs]

Kalyn: Yep. And–

Christine: Trauma again. No.

Kalyn: –little did they know. [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: God. God.

Kalyn: Little did they know. Yeah. That was a, that was a fun episode.

Christine: Do you know where your kids are? Do you know what they’re watching on the Disney Channel? 'Cause it’s scary.

Em: Right. [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: And speaking of some of that, like I like also the implication– We get Dylan, Marnie, and Sophie. They’re all now off to, to brew the witches brew on their own, right?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Yes.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: This is now like the turning point where it’s up to them. But there’s this implication because Sophie keeps showing up as like the most witchy– Like she’s just able.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: She has the instinct, and she, she knows what she’s doing, even more so than Marnie–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –’cause like Marnie doesn’t remember the spell to like turn on the talisman, but Sophie does.

Christine: Marnie’s like so in her head, you know, trying to do it.

Kalyn: Right.

Christine: And I feel like Sophie’s just like, “Oh, this old thing?”

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: Yeah. I wonder if it’s because Sophie would one day be like the most powerful or– if they were like hinting at that at the time–

Kalyn: I–

Em: –or if it was just because she was younger and more connected to that and–

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: There it is.

Em: Yeah, okay.

Kalyn: That’s, that’s the implication that I like is that she’s more in touch with her powers–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –’cause she’s younger, and I think that that’s a trope–

Christine: She hasn’t shut that down.

Kalyn: –that we see across a lot of things. Like she, she hasn’t– She’s– She spent less time internalizing the world which is telling her no–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –or telling her she can’t or whatever, like unwittingly having the unusual traits socialized out you know.

Em: I–

Christine: Well, there’s a line where Marnie even tells her grandma like, “Oh, I’m no one special,” and it’s like–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: –“Well, of course, if you’re thinking that way–“

Kalyn: Right.

Christine: “–it’s gonna take some shifting of your thinking.

Christian: Mm.

Kalyn: Right. To unlearn.

Christine: But yeah, Sophie’s kind of like–

Christian: Right.

Em: I also know like that’s the one of the main reasons why they think children are able to, uh, have more experiences with the paranormal because–

Christian: Yeah.

Em: –they haven’t been told that that’s an imaginary friend yet–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Right.

Em: –or they, they haven’t started believing that yet.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah, I agree.

Christian: Yeah. They’re still open to the possibility. Yeah.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Right. Yeah, because– Yeah. They just don’t have the– all of the other experience and all of the other things that are telling them something else.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: They can just know what they feel like what, what they feel, what’s true to them.

Christian: Their third eye hasn’t been gouged out yet.

Em: Right.

Christine: Their third eye isn’t blind. [chuckles]

Kalyn: Blinded.

Em: That’s exactly right. Oh god.

Christian: Blinded.

Kalyn: That could be a whole topic in of itself ’cause we– I– you all talk about just different paranormal stuff on your show. I always get lost in the comment sections of like “My kid was two years old and was telling me that they used to be an airline pilot”–

Christine: Oh!

Kalyn: –or like–

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: I get so like–

Christine: For–

Kalyn: –sucked into that stuff.

Christine: –for days, yeah.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Like what do they know? What do they remember?

Christine: What do they know?

Kalyn: They know so much more than we do. So they activate the talisman, and they head for the final confrontation. Um, this is time for the big baddy, and, of course, Kalabar is back–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –this mayor that’s kind of been skulking around the whole time. He’s too charming, too smooth. Um, he used to know Gwen. We get some glimpses into that. He has this like middle distant gaze about her–

Christine: Ugh.

Kalyn: –uh, which clearly has become a problem.

Christine: Middle distant gaze. [chuckles]

Kalyn: He’s been waiting years to give this monologue. You could tell by the top hat.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: He was ready to perform.

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: Um, he went so hard–

Em: You had– Also you had, you had your whole life to like decide whether or not to bring the top hat that day–

Christine: Literally. Yes.

Em: –and you went, “No, no, that’s gonna really seal the deal.”

Kalyn: “It’s, it’s a top hat day.” Yep.

Christine: And you went, “I’m not even gonna question that decision.”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: “I’m just gonna do it.”

Em: It’s like, “Why would I even think twice?”

Kalyn: [chuckles] “This is who I am.” Yep. “Where, where else would I be but here in a top hat?”

Christine: Such a good point.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christian: It’s a top hat day.

Kalyn: [chuckles] He actually went so hard–

Christine: It’s just a top hat.

Kalyn: –the actor did, during these scenes that he lost his voice and like completely fucked up the production schedule. Like they had to change–

Em: Oh, shit.

Kalyn: –the schedule because he yelled so much and screamed ’cause–

Christine: He was like too good of a villain. [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: Too good of a villain. And he’s like– There’s the wind machine. He’s like, you know, being suspended, and there’s all this stuff–

Christine: Holy shit.

Kalyn: –just screaming for days on end. Um, but yeah, Kalabar was, um, out for blood because he believes that Halloweentown’s creatures were unfairly marginalized by humans and they deserve to reclaim their world by force and eliminate the offending humans.

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: I agree that they shouldn’t have been marginalized. And I guess Aggie’s whole thing was like they kind of started going at each other–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –rather than it being like a one, you know, kind of overpowering the other and the creatures that had the power to create a new world just said, “Hey, we’ll just go do that.”, um, seems, you know, relatively simple, but that’s not how Kalabar remembers it. And I’m afraid that [chuckles] something that’s coloring his memory or understanding of the situation is that he is still hung up on Gwen–

Christine: It’s so cringe.

Kalyn: –choosing a human over him.

Em: Mhm.

Christian: Yep. Yep [chuckles]

Kalyn: So this big power trip is basically–

Christine: It’s fucking crazy.

Kalyn: –just the work of jealousy and ego and fragile masculinity.

Christine: It’s like nothing changes–

Em: Uh, yeah.

Christine: –you know?

Kalyn: Mm-mmm, nothing.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: Nothing new under the sun.

Christine: These–

Em: We didn’t even have to come up with a whimsical answer to that. It was just, “Oh, he’s just who he is. Okay.”

Christine: It’s literally he got his–

Christian: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: –he got rejected by his crush or whatever.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Holy sh– Like decades ago.

Christian: Yeah, very incel energy.

Christine: Like oh my god.

Kalyn: Decades.

Christine: Very incel-y, yeah.

Em: I was literally gonna say that’s some incel shit right there. Yeah.

Kalyn: Ugh.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Kalabar the incel.

Christine: Oh, and I just– Like quick side note because I’m the only one who’s gonna bring this up. So sorry, but there is a weird, um, comparison here or similarity to, um, The Brave Little Toaster Goes to Mars because–

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Christine: –the plot of that film–

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: –is that all the appliances on Mars feel rejected by humanity and want to destroy humanity and take over for themselves. And then the Brave Little Toaster is like, “No, humans are good,” and I’m like, “Well, I wouldn’t go that far.”

Kalyn: Mm.

Em: It’s like, “You’re a toaster. Shut the fuck up.” Like– [laughs]

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: Right. “You’re a fucking toaster.”

Kalyn: Yeah, “You’re a toaster. What do you know?” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Actually, the toaster becomes the supreme leader. It’s a whole thing.

Kalyn: Wow.

Em: I– Understood.

Christian: Wow.

Kalyn: Yeah. Man.

Christine: Anyway, they go after– They’re like, “We’re gonna blow up the earth.” And I’m like, “No wonder I was scared as a kid.” I’m like, “What do you mean the refrigerator is gonna blow me up, like wants to kill me?” I mean, it’s like– [laughs]

Em: Yeah, to, to walk around thinking your whole kitchen like resents you is crazy.

Christian: Wants to kill you. [laughs]

Christine: I know.

Kalyn: It’s, it’s pretty wild ’cause the f–

Christine: And they all have feelings?

Kalyn: –the first Brave Little Toaster gave you empathy for appliances. You’re like, “Oh no, the poor vacuum.”

Christine: That’s right.

Kalyn: “Oh no, the air conditioner–“

Christine: That’s right.

Kalyn: “–got so upset that he had a–“

Christian: Oh, the blanket.

Kalyn: “–panic attack and, and crashed out and died.”

Christine: See, that’s why I– Yeah.

Kalyn: Like, yeah, you get all this empathy and then–

Christine: Damaging.

Em: –that movie is just like, “No, they actually wanna hurt you,” so.

Christine: But see, it’s like a double-sided thing.

Em: And it’s like, “Oh!”

Christine: It’s like, “Oh–“

Christian: They’re out for blood. [chuckles]

Christine: “–wow. You really feel for them? Well, guess what? They’re gonna fuck you up.” And it’s like, “Oh my god.” Wow. That’s so deep.

Kalyn: So really, it was a one-two punch with those films–

Christine: Sure was.

Em: That’s a great way to put it.

Kalyn: –because they pulled us into a false sense of security–

Christine: That’s right.

Kalyn: –and then they said, “Never mind.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Talk about a life lesson, man.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: They just wanted to test our– how quickly they can manipulate us to feel–

Christine: Well, I hope they’re fucking happy ’cause I really haven’t recovered, so.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: Now I’m still scared of the toaster–

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: –to this day.

Christine: Me too. Me too.

Em: I’m still scared of the vacuum cleaner. That– He was so mean for no reason.

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christine: Oh!

Kalyn: He was. And the air conditioner. Yeah, that one just–

Christine: Oh, you, you remember that radio that was like, [in a transatlantic accent] “Hi! I’m all so– super cool transatlantic radio.”

Christian: Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: I’m so sorry–

Kalyn: “I’m a transatlantic guy.”

Em: –but I was convinced the radio was the, the first gay man I ever experienced.

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: That was the sassiest–

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: –un-unnecessarily sassy man I’d ever met in my life.

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christine: He was sassy.

Em: Anyway.

Kalyn: I love it. Okay. Sorry, let me figure out where we are.

Christine: Oh, sorry. Did I derail us–

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: No.

Christine: –by talking about The Brave Little Toaster Going to Mars?

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: I love that we were talking together about Brave Little Toaster and Halloweentown.

Christine: My god.

Kalyn: That makes my soul happy and full.

Em: Perfect.

Kalyn: But Marnie tries to use the talisman, and she fails the first time. She gets knocked down. There’s this, “Oh no, all is lost”–

Christine: [sighs]

Kalyn: –which we get a fake-out like we often do in films like this.

Christine: Love it.

Kalyn: And then she has this realization that feels very inevitable because magic is about more than spells and training. It’s about belief, believing in it. Aggie says earlier in the film–

Christine: [sighs] The quote. I wrote it down.

Kalyn: –which I really liked, the way she described magic.

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: She said, “Magic is knowing what you want and then letting yourself have it.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: She said, “It’s really very simple.”

Christian: Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: Really–

Christine: “You just wanna have to want something,” yeah, “and let yourself have it.” And I just thought that was so profound.

Kalyn: I love it.

Christine: And then when they brought it back, I was like, “Oh, beautiful.”

Kalyn: Mm-hmm. Amazing.

Em: Which I feel like a lot of it now, um– I feel like in today’s world, a lot of magic is manifestation work.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Em: And I feel like that–

Christine: Intention-base.

Em: –whether or not that’s because of Halloweentown, I, I feel like it’s interesting that a lot of the kids who watched Halloweentown grew up and those who are now involved in magic are like, “Oh, it’s– it– manifestation is the– like the first thing.”

Kalyn: Yeah. Nailed it.

Christine: Whether you had a crush on Marnie, you wanted to be Marnie, now we’re all doing witchcraft, and that’s the result.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: That’s where we landed.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: I mean, that’s where it brought us.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: Thanks, Disney.

Kalyn: And I, I personally don’t wanna be anywhere else.

Christine: Thanks, Disney. [chuckles]

Em: You did it.

Kalyn: [chuckles] Marnie’s like, “Hey, chocolate bar, you better give the talisman back or you’re in big trouble.”

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: She’s like mouthing– like using her powers as a 13-year-old for good.

Christine: Sass.

Kalyn: You know what I mean?

Christine: Yeah, love it.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: This is the sass that we need. Um, she rallies her family together. Even Dylan–

Christine: [gasps]

Kalyn: –who stops citing science textbooks. 'Cause he’s had this whole “actually” kind of vibe–

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: –for the whole time. Um, he realizes that he too is a warlock.

Christian: Oh, that kid pissed me off.

Em: He has some internalized hatred towards his own kind. I–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: I don’t know what’s going on there.

Kalyn: Yeah. Yes. He’s definitely been, um, been socialized in a way that makes him–

Christine: I think he also has little brother syndrome ’cause I feel like–

Christian: Yeah.

Christine: –my little brother and I always bickered like that, and whether he believed me or not, he’d be like, “That’s stupid,” to whatever I did and said–

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: –and I think it was just kind of our, our thing with siblings.

Kalyn: To be contrarian.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: He says at one point– Like Marnie’s running off and he– like it’s like a classic middle child thing ’cause he’s like, “It’s always the troublemakers that get the attention”–

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, yeah.

Kalyn: –or something like that. There’s so much of that in this movie.

Christine: And I actually had to admit– I had to admit to myself I saw myself in him a lot more than I thought because I am always the one who’s like, “Well, it’s probably just because the thing is– the window was open. Oh, well, it’s probably–“ And so like–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –I’m like, “Oh, I’m more like him than I think I am.” Like I wanna be more like Marnie, but yeah, I did see myself in– And then when he got some magic powers at the end–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: –I was like, “Oh, that’s so fun that he got to be part of it too.”

Kalyn: Yeah, it is. It’s fitting. It’s great because–

Christine: Aw.

Kalyn: I mean, in all of us there’s a little bit of Marnie.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: There's a little bit of Dylan. Like there’s– We’ve got that energy. And I liked that they were calling it out. Like that was the, the–

Christine: Yes.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: They kept saying it out loud.

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: And when you first watch it– Like when I watched it back as a grown-up, I was like, “This is all really loud.” you know they’re saying it really plainly, but then I’m like this was for kids–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –at a time when people weren’t really talking like that out loud.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: You know?

Christian: Right.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: We kinda take it for granted now, you know.

Christine: Yeah.

Kalyn: But that’s– It was– It was a new–

Christian: That’s true.

Kalyn: –a new voice that pop psychology ni– We talked about it in, uh, Jumanji–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –where they’re marginalizing this character because she has a therapist and she’s doing all this work and she’s like–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: –neurotic and panicked and whatever. That was really the ‘90s picture of psychology.

Christine: Yeah.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: And this is like the kids are psychoanalyzing the grown-ups which softens it and–

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: I don’t know. It makes it–

Christine: Yes.

Em: And, and you’re more likely to listen to it if it’s another kid.

Christine: True.

Kalyn: Right.

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: Helping you make sense of the world.

Christine: And it’s like accurate.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Yeah, for sure. Um, so in this moment, they combine their power. They’re humming. It’s, it’s– They’ve really got the like meditation going on, and altogether, uh, they, they– their power and the talisman combine such that Kalabar is defeated, the spell breaks, and everything’s good. Everybody’s restored. Marnie apologizes for being like an emotional 13-year-old with a point. Um, so, you know–

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: –I mean, apologize for maybe the way you said it, not necessarily what you said–

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Kalyn: –in that case. [chuckles]

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Gwen apologizes for hiding the truth and like underestimating Marnie. And Aggie’s like, “Great, we’re a coven now. Everything is awesome. Like can do no wrong.” And there’s also this moment with Luke–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –um, who admits that he made bad choices for shallow reasons. 'Cause he had agreed to like be Kalabar’s minion in exchange for improving his goblin looks.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: So he’s a goblin that turned into, um–

Christine: So he’s an insecure male wi– [chuckles] whatever you said earlier, Kalyn. [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: [laughs]

Em: So far I’ve yet to find a, a man who is assured of himself. Um–

Kalyn: He um, he also was the voice–

Christian: I don’t think they exist.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: –of– I should probably check that in my notes before I say it. I don’t know. I’d have to look at my bigger group of notes, but he was the voice of Arnold in Hey Arnold! for a while–

Em: Yes, he was.

Christine: Oh!

Christian: Yeah.

Em: He was.

Kalyn: –this kid, same kid. And so when I found that out, I was like, “So much millennial crossover.”

Christine: Oh my gosh.

Em: I think he was the first Arnold.

Christine: No way.

Kalyn: That may be true.

Christian: He was the second or third.

Em: The second? Okay.

Kalyn: I know Lane Toran–

Christian: 'Cause Lane Toran was the first.

Em: Okay.

Kalyn: And then he was the second Arnold after that. Um–

Christine: Wow.

Kalyn: But yeah, so Marnie has this moment with him where she’s like, “You know, we get it.” like, like he’s done this– It’s, it’s relatable, honestly. Like he just wanted– He’s 13, and it–

Christine: He wanted to be liked.

Kalyn: –insecure man but like wants to look better, wants to impress and, um, you know, made–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: –made the wrong friends along the way. [chuckles] M– Ha–

Em: He just wants to be the big cheese.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: Just wants to be the big cheese.

Em: I get it.

Kalyn: On his quest to be the big cheese. And Marnie gives him a kiss on the cheek–

Christine: Aw.

Kalyn: –uh, that does not turn him back into a prince ’cause that’s the only trope that we aren’t doing today.

Christine: Right. Right. I love that f–

Em: I guess so. [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: I do love that for us.

Kalyn: [chuckles] The only one.

Christine: That would have been kind of “womp-womp.” Yeah.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: And then this crowd of like grateful cheering Halloweentown citizens sees them off in the bus. And Gwen asks Aggie to babysit on Thursday nights, which is her way of like asking Aggie to live with them, and so they’re gonna combine the worlds. And Aggie like accepts this offer very quickly for somebody who is like uprooting her life–

Christine: Mm-hmm. I was wondering about that.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –of over 200 years. She’s been like a fixture in this town for 200 years, and she’s just like, “Nah, I’m gonna go with the grandkids. Peace out. I’ll see you.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: To a different dimension. Yeah.

Kalyn: I get it, I guess. I understand.

Em: Although, I–

Christian: Yeah, that bothered me.

Kalyn: Mm.

Em: –I, I guess that was, um, it– its own trope of like, “Oh, well, one of the parents,” aka the grandparent in this case, “was away and not paying any attention to the family, and then the other one had to stay and like become the full-time parent.”

Kalyn: Oh, right.

Em: Whereas now we’re now at the end like, “Oh, we’ve been reminded that family is the most important thing and–“

Christine: Aw.

Kalyn: Family is important. We got to stick together. Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: There’s like generational reconciliation like across three generations all at the same time. Um, and they–

Christian: Yeah, but you can have that in Halloweentown.

Em: That’s what I’m saying.

Christine: True. Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah, that’s–

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: Yeah, that’s my argument. Why would– Like Marnie wouldn’t wanna live in Halloweentown? Are you kidding me?

Christine: Yeah, don’t be ridiculous.

Em: Imagine finally discovering Halloweentown and that your grandma is like one of the most powerful people there and you just saved their asses–

Christine: And you’re their hero.

Em: –and now you have to go to middle school?

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: You’re gonna be royalty.

Christian: “Let’s go home.” [chuckles]

Em: Yeah. “Time for eighth grade tomorrow.” Yeah. [chuckles]

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christine: You’re gonna be homecoming queen every year for the rest of your days.

Kalyn: You– Yeah. She would be the most popular kid in the town if she stayed in Halloweentown, but.

Em: No. Yeah.

Kalyn: She’s gonna have to go back to the mortal world where nobody knows–

Christian: Well, and then we have the Carrie origin story.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: True.

Kalyn: [chuckles] – yeah – nobody knows who she is at all.

Em: Wow.

Kalyn: But their bus soars off into the clouds just like the car in Grease, and that’s–

Christine: [chuckles] Yes.

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: –the end of Halloweentown.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Just like Grease, yeah.

Christine: [applause]

Kalyn: But that’s the thing that the movie lands on. It’s a very Disney Channel, very like, um, pointed way of doing it, but not everything has to be either or.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: Like that’s the takeaway. You don’t have to reject where you come from–

Christine: Mm.

Kalyn: –to build a new life. You don’t have to stay small to stay safe. You don’t have to be normal to belong.

Christine: Aw.

Em: You can sing and play basketball.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: You can sing and play basketball, Em.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: You can do both.

Christine: “That’s your dream, Dad.”

Kalyn: Nobody’s gonna– [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Kalyn: Nobody’s gonna punish you for doing both – except, you know, all the kids at school, but that’s another story. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Well, someone will, but you just gotta get over it.

Em: Yeah. Uh, very cool.

Kalyn: It– This movie is just such like a cozy way of saying that identity isn’t something that you can bury without consequence.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Yes, yes.

Kalyn: And if you know that there’s something true about you that’s bigger or stranger or more you than what you’ve been allowed to explore in the past, you have to choose that at some point, and it’s gonna pay off.

Em: That’s a great–

Christine: Aw.

Em: –great way to put it.

Christine: I love that takeaway.

Kalyn: Mm.

Christine: I wanna watch it again tonight.

Kalyn: [chuckles]

Christian: [chuckles]

Em: I, uh, I– One of my favorite things about it– I think, I think Kimberly J. Brown has talked about it on her TikTok or somewhere, but she did ev– uh, at some point I’ve, I’ve heard it where, out of all the props that she kept, she said that she got to keep her like witch– witchy dress and–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: –that, um, Debbie Reynolds also kept her witchy dress, and Debbie Reynolds used to answer the door for trick-or-treaters in her dress.

Kalyn: [gasps]

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And so then when she died, Kimberly J. Brown started doing it in her dress and–

Christian: Nice.

Christine: Aww.

Kalyn: Oh my god.

Christian: Nice.

Christine: I’m gonna cry.

Kalyn: Oh my god, that’s amazing.

Christine: [sighs]

Em: And also, I think Kimberly J. Brown has an, an Etsy now. Like she–

Christine: Really?

Christian: Wow.

Kalyn: –like sells Halloweentown Etsy stuff on–

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: Oh, she also does Cameos, I found out.

Em: You what?

Kalyn: Cameo.

Christine: She does cameos too.

Em: Fun.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: No, I, I–

Kalyn: I was just gonna say I– we need to talk to Kimberly J. Brown. Like I need her opinions on all of this and more.

Christine: I know. I bet she has some very interesting insight.

Em: Yeah. No, for sure.

Christine: [sighs]

Em: Have you, um– H– You should also tonight maybe, Christine, watch Halloweentown 2.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: See, now, now we’re talking.

Kalyn: Kalabar’s Revenge.

Christine: But she’s in that one, yeah?

Kalyn: Is that the third one? I don’t remember.

Em: Kalabar’s Revenge is the– I thought that was the second one.

Kalyn: Maybe it is.

Christian: I thought it was. Yeah.

Kalyn: I wanna say there are four, and I wanna say Halloweentown High is the fourth one, but–

Christine: Is it still Kimberly?

Kalyn: I’m not cer–

Em: It’s still Kimberly in Halloweentown 2.

Kalyn: Yes.

Christine: Okay. I want– I’ll watch that.

Em: It–

Christine: I’ll watch that, and then I’ll watch the original Brave Little Toaster.

Christian: There you go.

Kalyn: Important.

Em: Well, like fun fact for you though, Christine, um, the next one i– uh, is the other main character, and it ends up being her future husband in real life.

Christine: [gasps]

Kalyn: That’s right. They get together.

Christine: Oh, and I was just stalking them.

Kalyn: I forgot.

Em: So they met on– at Halloweentown.

Christine: I didn’t know that.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Oh my gosh, there’s so much beautiful lore here. I’m so happy.

Kalyn: Beautiful Halloweentown lore.

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: Thank you guys for introducing me to such a beautiful–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christine: –world, cinematic universe.

Kalyn: Thank you for having us. Thank you for letting us. Thank you for letting us give a little taste of like what we do all the time. Um–

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Christine: I love it.

Kalyn: –and thank you for your paranormal story that coincides with, with Halloweentown.

Christine: Yeah, what a weird coinkydink.

Em: That was, that was an, that was an Eva original to, uh–

Kalyn: I would love for us to all go ghost hunting.

Em: –to lead you in. But I–

Christine: A little tricky trick.

Em: No, thank you for coming on. But also like, um, it was very fun to talk about something that I loved so much from my childhood but in an adult way. Like you really–

Christine: Yes.

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Em: You brought some very, some very deep wonderful points that like I would not sit here and think about myself, so–

Christine: I love it.

Kalyn: Thanks.

Em: Well done.

Kalyn: That’s very kind. I, I love like the, the point about magic, and I think that’s even taken a step further ’cause it’s like, “Figure out who you are and then let yourself be that person.”

Christine: Oh…

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christian: Right.

Kalyn: And it– I–

Em: Okay.

Kalyn: This, this movie is just such a great like–

Em: 10 out of 10.

Kalyn: I don’t know.

Christine: [laughs]

Kalyn: It just does a great job with it. And to be able to look at it now, like in 2026, through this lens, all of the oppression, everything that’s happening, and recognize that this is the message that we were getting as kids in the ‘90s, and let’s keep that in media, you know.

Christine: And it still holds up. Yeah. [sighs]

Kalyn: It’s– Very holds up.

Em: It’s also horrifying that the warning signs were always there then and–

Christine: [laughs]

Christian: Yeah. [laughs]

Kalyn: Yeah.

Em: –and no one listened it seems.

Christine: At least we– I mean, we’re not–

Em: None of the important people listened.

Christine: At least we’re not surprised.

Kalyn: Just us and hopefully all of your– all the listeners out there.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: J-Just us.

Kalyn: We’re all in this together, you know, just like Troy.

Em: Yeah, just– I mean–

Christine: Just like Troy. [chuckles]

Em: I hope that’s the, the moral that you learn at the end of each of your episodes that every movie is basically Troy Bolton discovering he can do it all.

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: He can do it–

Kalyn: Far more often than not–

Christine: He can do it all.

Kalyn: –that is the takeaway. Yeah.

Christine: Just be yourself. Yeah.

Kalyn: You can, you can always tell your dad that it’s his dream, not yours.

Em: But in song.

Christine: I do, often. But in song, for sure.

Kalyn: In, in song, preferably. [chuckles]

Christine: Um, wow. Thank you so much both for coming on. Can you give people a little, um, a little teaser tag where they can find you and listen to your show?

Kalyn: Yeah, absolutely. You want me to take it, Christian? How do you feel?

Christian: Yeah, go ahead. You got this. You’re doing great.

Kalyn: [chuckles] You can find us, uh, at That’s Pretty Dark podcast. We’re on all the, uh, podcast platforms. You can find us on, uh, Instagram, @thatsprettydarkpodcast. We are part of ParaPods now, which is an incredible place to be. We love that.

Christine: Ah!

Kalyn: Um, all of these ideas, like all of this that we put into our show, all of the research, all the folklore, all the history, all the layers of everything, we knew that ParaPods would be the right home for that–

Em: Oh my gosh.

Kalyn: –because of everything that Em and Christine, uh, and all of the incredible shows on ParaPods are doing with their shows. It’s all about community, finding community. Like I am getting really especially extra cheesy now, but like we are all in this together. Uh, the thing that we say at That’s Pretty Dark is “you’re never really alone.”

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Aw.

Kalyn: And it’s sort of a spooky tone, but at the same time, it’s us finding out that we weren’t alone in all these things that we were thinking and feeling as kids and that there is true like magic and power in that when we can all come together as grown-ups–

Christine: Aw.

Em: [claps quietly]

Kalyn: –and hopefully do things better and differently. So, yeah, find us, come check us out, be with us.

Christine: [snaps fingers]

Kalyn: We would love to have you. And again, we both have just– I mean, for ten years at this point, you guys have now– you’re in ten years. Like, uh, I remember driving to work listening to And That’s Why We Drink, listening to–

Christine: Oh, shut up. [laughs]

Kalyn: –both of you–

Em: [laughs]

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: –like driving to my corporate job ten years ago, telling Christian like, “Oh, you should listen to this episode. They covered this thing.” Like–

Christine: Stop.

Kalyn: –we were literally listening to you guys in 2017-ish–

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Kalyn: –2018.

Christine: Oh my god, that’s crazy.

Christian: Oh, yeah. Long time ago. Yeah.

Kalyn: And to be here now? Like I was panicking all day, just in a sense of like this is almost de-derealization, like, “Where am I and what am I doing?”

Christian: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Don’t dissociate on my account please.

Kalyn: “Because I get to talk to Em and Christine today.” Um, so yeah, we’re thrilled.

Christian: Well–

Kalyn: We can’t wait for more. And yeah.

Em: Very sweet.

Christian: I’ve told other people this, but I get to tell you guys now that I did, uh, listen to you on Kalyn’s recommendation, but I was working on a movie in like Biloxi, and I just needed something new to like get me through the month I was about to have. I believe– I don’t– It wasn’t during COVID. It was– I don’t know when it was.

Kalyn: No, it was pre–

Christian: I don’t know, but–

Kalyn: I feel– And I know I was listening pre-COVID.

Christian: Yeah, but I finally did listen to you guys, and I was like, “I wanna be in the room doing what they’re doing.”

Kalyn: Yep.

Christine: Aw.

Christian: “I wanna hang out with them.”

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christian: And–

Christine: That's all we ever wanted. Like–

Christian: [chuckles]

Kalyn: And then talk about manifesting energy–

Christine: –to make people feel– For real.

Christian: And then somewhere along the way, we were like, “Let’s start a podcast. Let’s do it.”

Christine: You guys like summoned reality. That’s so fucking cool. See, it’s magic. What did she say?

Christian: I was like, “They’re having so much fun. I wanna do that.”

Em: And it was literally, “If you, you first believe it– Believe it and then–“

Christine: “All you have to do is want something and then let yourself have it.”

Christian: Yeah.

Kalyn: Oh! Want something–

Christine: You guys.

Kalyn: Here we are. I’m gonna cry.

Christian: [laughs]

Kalyn: I’m gonna fucking cry. You can’t do this to me.

Christine: You guys, that’s real. It’s real. I’m gonna have a panic attack–

Kalyn: God, just– Yeah.

Christine: –like The Brave Little Toaster.

Kalyn: Thank you both so much.

Christine: Thank you– [laughs]

Kalyn: Thank you for what you’ve built and maintained. Thank you for what you do every day ’cause you, you were bringing like joy to my, you know, corporate job and commute.

Christine: Aw.

Kalyn: I know you’re doing that for so many other people. And yeah, it’s an honor, privilege.

Christine: Well, it was an– all in an effort to do it for ourselves, and then we were so excited that anybody else wanted to be a part of it. So that–

Em: Yeah.

Kalyn: And that’s exactly how we felt.

Christine: –really means so much.

Kalyn: We were just like, “We just have to talk about this. We’ll see if anybody wants to listen.” And I can’t believe that you all wanted to listen. [chuckles]

Christine: Yes!

Christian: [coughs]

Em: It’s amazing.

Christine: Yes. And more so now. I wanna go listen to that– I’m gonna watch My Brave Little Toaster and then listen to the episode to make sure I didn’t miss any huge dark–

Kalyn: It’s, it’s heavy.

Christine: –heavy themes.

Christian: Oh, we go deep on that one.

Kalyn: It’s real heavy.

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Em: Oh my gosh.

Christine: Yeah, I think it’s necessary.

Kalyn: That one’s just existential dread straight, straight up.

Christine: It is.

Christian: Yeah. [chuckles]

Kalyn: Just take a shot.

Christian: Through and through.

Christine: I think it’s gonna like open a lot of conversations with my therapist, you know? So.

Christian: Yep.

Em: [laughs]

Kalyn: That's what we’re here for this whole show. [chuckles]

Christine: I love that.

Em: Thank you–

Christine: Triggering left and right.

Em: Thank you both for coming. That’s– You said very sweet things. But no, you’re– You have a wonderful show. I hope everyone goes and listens to it.

Christine: Yes, please.

Em: This was definitely like a very great taste into what you guys do, so.

Christine: Yes, absolutely.

Em: Um–

Kalyn: And we look forward– We’re gonna have you all on our show as well.

Christine: Yes. [gasps] Oh.

Kalyn: We’re not sure when and how it’s all coming out.

Christian: We are, we are. We are.

Christine: It was gonna be about my–

Christian: Yeah, speaking of talking to your therapist.

Kalyn: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: Right. It was gonna be about my trauma watching The Ring when I was far too young as–

Christian: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –in my own opinion. I was scared of Halloweentown, and then I watched The Ring, so just to give you an idea of like–

Kalyn: [chuckles] Yeah. Do the math.

Christian: Right, right.

Christine: –how badly it went for me psychically, psychologically. Um, yeah. And we’re gonna talk about that, but now I’m like, “Oh my god, I have so many fucking movies that I don’t–“ Whatever anybody wants to talk about, I’m ready to hop on the show and–

Kalyn: Yeah.

Christian: [chuckles]

Christine: –and chat about.

Kalyn: Yeah, we can’t wait.

Em: Yeah, part–

Kalyn: We cannot wait.

Christine: Could be Brave Little Toaster.

Christian: Hey, we’ll do anything.

Em: Part two of the crossover will be very fun to hear the two of you talk about some really horrific things. I mean, Kalyn and I were very lucky that we got to talk about, um, a haunted house and then witches, but it sounds like, um–

Kalyn: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –sorry, Christine and, and Christian, but The Ring is–

Christine: I’m n– Do I have to watch The Ring again?

Kalyn: Yeah, you guys have the heavy hitting.

Em: Yeah.

Christian: No.

Kalyn: We turned it into something more heavy hitting, but– [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Oh, boy.

Christian: It’s–

Kalyn: Nobody was, nobody was traumatized the way that–

Christian: –it’s definitely gonna be heavier and darker than we, we usually go, I think, ’cause it’s like–

Kalyn: Mm-hmm.

Christine: The Ring. Why did I say that?

Christian: –not children’s horror.

Christine: I don’t know.

Em: [laughs]

Christian: It’s adult horror. But hey, it does fit.

Kalyn: It’s perfect. Yeah.

Christian: It’s perfect–

Christine: Does it?

Christian: –because it’s a haunted VHS tape.

Kalyn: Yep.

Em: Yeah, it does work very well.

Kalyn: And nothing’s more nostalgic than that.

Christine: Good point.

Em: It works for both of our shows very well.

Christian: It’s nostalgic.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Christian: It’s nostalgic. I can’t wait.

Em: Well, thank you all for, for coming on, and we’ll see you on the other half of our crossover.

Kalyn: Yeah. We’ll see you on that flip side.

Christian: Sounds good.

Kalyn: We can’t wait.

Christine: Yay.

Christian: Not if we see you first.

Kalyn: Thanks again.

Christine: Bye, guys.

Kalyn: Thank you. Thank you.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: [chuckles]

Kalyn: You’re never really alone.

Christine: Ooh!

Christian: You’re never really alone.

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