E406 A Nap Seance and The Christine Claw™

TOPICS: THE GRIGGS MANSION, JAYCEE LEE DUGARD PT. 1

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Episode 406 is here and so is Juniper to take a bite from Christine after her nap. This week Em brings us the history and spooky hauntings of the Griggs Mansion, built by Chauncey Griggs - not to be confused with our SIM Chauncey Bliss. Then Christine kicks off her multi-part story on the kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard, a heartbreaking tale with a twist straight out of a Disney movie. And don't forget to take some self care time to color, or draw, or rot on the couch this week like us, you deserve it! ...and that's why we drink!

Photos:
The Griggs Mansion
Jaycee Lee Dugard

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Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: Hello, and welcome to our podcast, And That’s Why We Drink. It is a paranormal– 

Em: Uh– 

Christine: Shut up. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s a paranormal podcast [laughs] where sometimes we interrupt each other. Em, do you have something to say? 

Em: Mm-mmm. Nope. 

Christine: [laughs] It sounded import– 

Em: Carry on for the next two hours. 

Christine: It sounded important. [laughs] 

Em: Christine, why, um, why on earth do you drink this week? 

Christine: Oh my god, I can’t, I can’t believe it. I slept. 

[silence] 

Em: Oh, okay. [laughs] I thought there was gonna be a number after that. Um, that’s good. How long did you sleep? 

Christine: I don’t know, but my little ri– my little app said, “Wow! You did it!” 

Em: [laughs] Did it really? That feels condescending. 

Christine: Yes, it sure did. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I said, “I’ve been trying for weeks.” You know what’s condescending? 

Em: It might as well have said, “You’re so brave.” 

Christine: You know what’s condescending? When it says, “Hey, why don’t you try harder to sleep?” And I’m like, “You know, go fuck yourself, first of all.” Uh– Anyway. 

Em: Does it do it based on, um, length or based on depth of sleep? 

Christine: No, so it’s my little Oura Ring. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So does like, um, your biometrics. [laughs] You know, my biometrics– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –is what it, is what it does. 

Em: Oh, okay. Obviously. Well, very exciting. 

Christine: Uh, yeah. Yeah. No more questions, right? That’s obviously clear enough. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, anyway, I like woke up with Leona as I have been doing and got– helped get her ready. Then I was like, “I’m gonna take a nap.” I never take naps, as you know. I was like, “I’m just gonna sleep.” And so I slept– 

Em: Very proud of you. 

Christine: I slept through my two alarms. [laughs] 

Em: Good for you. 

Christine: And I slept like hours. And my– 

Em: Good for you. 

Christine: Finally caught up a little bit, so I’m feeling like very weird ’cause I just woke up. And I– By the way– 

Em: Oh, just took a nap. You just took it. 

Christine: Oh, sorry. Yes, to clarify I woke up probably 25 minutes ago. 

Em: [laughs] Oh my gosh, okay. 

Christine: And I had that panic of, “Uh-oh, did I miss our recording?” 

Em: Ugh! Story of my life. 

Christine: Um– Yeah, I know. I felt like you. And then my app was like, “Holy smokes! What happened?” I was like, [laughs] “Hell if I know.” Um, and all the little boys, uh, Gio, Junie, and Moony, were all like around me like a little seance. 

Em: They thought it was over. They were ready to eat you. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] They were hosting my funeral, yeah. They were actually probably ready to eat me once I was like– 

Em: They were discussing the recipe that they– how they were gonna brine you. 

Christine: [laughs] Who gets the first bite, yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, so anyway, I was probably dead to the world. But yeah, so I, I woke up feeling like, “Whoa, what is this feeling of like having slept more than, you know, five hours or whatever?” Um– 

Em: Ugh, god. 

Christine: Well, when we were at the Driskill recently for our tour– We always stay at this, of course, this haunted place in the– the one Em covered ages ago. And we stayed there this time, and they– It’s like this beautiful old hotel, but it– The mattress was too damn soft. I felt like Goldilocks. 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: I, I was in the bathroom in the middle of the night getting towels to like put under me. 

Em: Really? 

Christine: Like I was like, “How, how old am I that like my back hurts after like ten minutes of laying on a soft mattress?” But, in any case, I couldn’t sleep there, and I thought, “Oh, that’s my place to catch up.” Nope, turns out it was on a Wednesday morning before we recorded, so. 

Em: You know, I, uh– I’m proud of you for napping at all. I– That’s– It’s literally my favorite hobby, so, um– 

Christine: Thank you. And you know what I did? My favorite thing that occasionally happens which is where I drink coffee, took my medication, and then took a nap. 

Em: Oh, that’s– 

Christine: So then I woke up, it all was like, “We’re here!” And– 

Em: It’s like going to the beyond and– [laughs] 

Christine: It, it was like– Oh, man. I feel so good now. I woke up, and I was like, “Wow, all my meds have kicked in. My coffee is kicked– I feel good.” Anyway, I’m, I’m just like– It’s rare that I hop on here and say, “Hey, I’m feeling awesome,” ’cause, uh– I don’t know. I don’t know ’cause I– my body is rested. That’s very rare. So anyway– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Em, why, why do you drink this week? 

Em: I don’t know. I’m in a bit of a funk. I came home, and I’m just like so depressed. And I don’t know like– 

Christine: [sarcastically] Oh, good. 

Em: –what my deal is. So maybe I need a nap combined with uppers and downers. 

Christine: I mean, it helped. 

Em: Um, [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. That’s exactly right. You get it. 

Em: No, I’ve– I d– I, I think because I’ve been– I think my body’s just tired of traveling, which this happens af– during every tour where like there’s only like a leg left or a couple legs left, and I’m– I just– I think this one’s extra hard because I’m realizing how little I’m actually gonna be in my house for the rest of the year because– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Like we’re going on a leg and that– Both legs are gonna have me going back to the East Coast at different points, so I’m going to– We have Atlanta and Charleston, but that’s where Allison’s family usually comes to see the show, so then we’re gonna be there. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: From there, I think I’m just gonna go straight to Seattle like I usually do for Thanksgiving. So one of the things that I told Christine recently is that I bought a travel microphone, so while I’m traveling I can still record. And I’m very excited to try that ’cause I– 

Christine: I can’t wait to see how that works. 

Em: I think it’s gonna be, um– ’Cause I feel like it’s, it’s been in my mind. I’m like, “Oh no. Like I still have to get all the way home just to record.” But if I’m– if I have a microphone with me, then I think that stress will go away which is super nice. So, um, excited about that. But then I come back from Thanksgiving– 

Christine: Think of Em globetrotting. We’re, we’re recording, and Em’s suddenly like, “I’m in Seattle”; “I’m in Atlanta”; “I’m in Timbuktu.” I can’t wait. 

Em: [laughs] “Coming at you live from–“ Yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, and then I– And then we have our, our last show, but immediately from there, um, Allison’s sister has a baby shower, and then from there, I’m gonna go home for Christmas. Like it just becomes a thing where I’m not really home a lot and I’m already a little burnt out, and so I’m just like [groans]. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So I think I– my brain is kind of saying, “Bye-bye,” and m– [stammers] manually shutting down on its own. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Hey, maybe that’s what happened to me ’cause my brain also said that. It didn’t even respond to l– alarms on my Apple Watch. It was just like, “No, thanks. We’re not participating in the world anymore.” 

Em: It was, uh– Yeah, it, it– I feel like I– the– 

Christine: Try being unconscious. 

Em: You know, I– It’s usually tr– a tried and true practice for me. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say – you’re the one who taught me that, so who am I kidding? [laughs] 

Em: No, but today’s the first day I feel a little on the up and up. But the last few days, I was just like a little– Like I just couldn’t get myself off the couch– 

Christine: Yeah, there’s– There’s like a– 

Em: But I think that’s because I was go, go, going, and then I finally– 

Christine: Yeah, there’s like a come down from tra– all travel, and I feel like ours is so like heightened also because we did– I mean, especially Texas, we did three live shows and two book signings and like back-to-back. So it was just a lot of like– 

Em: Which doesn’t sound like a lot, but it is weirdly draining. 

Christine: [laughs] I think it sounds like a lot. 

Em: I feel like if I heard somebody else saying that I wouldn’t understand, but it really does take a lot out of you. And I don’t know if it’s ’cause like I feel the need to be on or if it’s just because you add that to all the flying and traveling we do and– I don’t know. 

Christine: I mean, it’s work, you know. We’re traveling for work. It’s a lot– It’s a lot. Um. 

Em: So anyway, I– Today, I, I drink because I feel better than I have the last two days, but the last two days were just– I was just– 

Christine: Well, I’m sorry. 

Em: It’s okay. I just felt like that– 

Christine: Look, Junie just arrived to take his first bite. He’s mad that I woke up. 

Em: Oh! [laughs] He, he said, “I know I doused you in something when you were asleep. I gotta go find that one spot.” 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, he’s like, “You’re salted already.” 

Em: I also drink because, um, our manager knows I love a good hunk of meat, and, uh– 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: –apparently, my Christmas present got here early– 

Christine: Whoa! Really? 

Em: –because I’ll be traveling so much. And– 

Christine: Oh, that’s ni– She’s so thoughtful. 

Em: –a box of steak just arrived my way. So now I know what I’m having for dinner. 

Christine: Are you serious? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I sorta feel like Maggie knew like you were having a, a downer day and was like, “Here you go. Here’s a box of steak.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] The only thing I don’t like about a box of delicious steak is that I have to make it. I just wish it would– I wish a waiter would show up, you know. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. That– They should also include like that Jetson– some sort of Jetsons like tool that can just like– 

Em: Like the Spy Kids microwave? Where– [laughs] 

Christine: Yes! Right. Exact– You get it. Like some Inspector Gadget situation. I don’t know. 

Em: Anyway, so that will be my, um, my surpri– my, my treat today. 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: Oh, and my treat last night – because I was not feeling good so Allison tried to like cheer me up. We went to Erewhon, and I had a basic bitch moment. 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: And I had, I had one of my unnecessarily expensive smoothies, and it was actually my favorite smoothie I’ve had from there. 

Christine: Which one? I’ve never had one, so I don’t know why I’m asking. But I’m curious. 

Em: Uh, okay. So I tried– F-for those wondering, the– there was like a big thing for a while about Hailey Bieber’s strawberry smoothie that came out– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –not actually a fan of that the way that I thought I was gonna be. Um, and I also really want to try Kendall Jenner’s Malibu Mango, Mango Malibu situation. 

Christine: [laughs] This is crazy. LA is crazy. I always forget after leaving. 

Em: [laughs] Where celebrities get to make their own smoothies and then it becomes a thing. 

Christine: Just insanity. 

Em: Um, and another LA thing is that– For those who don’t know, Erewhon is like this unbelievably bougie grocery store. 

Christine: Do you know what somebody said to me the other day and I felt really stupid? My tattoo artist was like, “Oh, we went to that really fancy store. It’s, it’s–“ And I was like, “Oh, um–“ I was about to say it. She goes, “It’s the one that’s “nowhere” spelled backwards.” And I went– 

Em: Erewhon? [laughs] 

Christine: –“Holy shit! I didn’t know that was ‘nowhere’ spelled backwards.” I’m so slow. Like did you know that? 

Em: That’s why– Uh, yeah. That’s why, um, in the show You when like the girl he’s– 

Christine: Yes, she said that. She said that. She’s like, “You know that show–“ 

Em: –the girl he’s after runs like a– basically an Erewhon, and when it’s, when it’s spelled backwards, it spells “nirvana”, but it’s– 

Christine: Yes, yes. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yes. 

Em: I forget what it’s actually called. 

Christine: It’s exactly what she told me, and I went, “Oh my god. I’m so– Okay, I’m so behind–“ 

Em: It’s like absolutely making fun of Erewhon. Um. 

Christine: Right, right, right, right, right. 

Em: But anyway, I went there, and I had the berries and cream smoothie, which I didn’t love I– that I couldn’t make modifications because it’s the membership smoothie, which– There is a membership to this grocery store– 

Christine: What? 

Em: –and they always have a membersh– 

Christine: Wait, are you a member? 

Em: No, I, I think if I was a member, I could have made a modification, but I wasn’t allowed to. 

Christine: Ohh. This is insane. 

Em: Um, but yeah, they usually have like a, a members-only smoothie, and if you’re a member, it’s free for a certain amount of time before they switch it to another smoothie. Um, but the reason why it’s such a perk that it would be free is because some of the smoothies like are like [laughs] $30. Like it’s insane. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And, um, the one that, the one that I got yesterday was surprisingly $11. I didn’t– it felt like a normal smoothie for once, but, um. 

Christine: That’s like an airport price, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. But I had the– 

Christine: Like that’s like what– 

Em: –the berries and cream one, and I think if I could have added dates to it, it would have been perfect. 

Christine: Oh, interesting. Okay, so that’s your new favorite. What kind of c– Is it like hemp milk? Like what kind of milk do they put in it? 

Em: Let me tell you. [searching online] Erewhon berries and cream smoothies. 

Christine: I’m, of course, already on Erewhon smoothies. 

Em: Yeah, they’re, uh– Oh, it’s called the Alo [pronounced “ay-lo”], Alo [pronounced “a-loe”], Alo [pronounced “ale-oh”]. It’s that company that’s– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. 

Em: –a lot of bougie people wear. Um, okay. So the ingredients are– 

Christine: Okay, these look great. [laughs] Like the pictures of them look beautiful. Wow. 

Em: It– Oh, they look beautiful. Yeah. My goal is to try every single one of them. I will tell you the cloud one – that’s that beautiful blue– it is not that good. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, so it’s gotta look pretty to, I guess, get– for you to get over the– 

Christine: Oh my god, it’s got organic mushrooms? 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah, this one had that too. 

Christine: What? 

Em: They– It’s because it’s so nutritional– 

Christine: Oh, it’s coconut milk. 

Em: –and “almond mommy.” Um, so this one has coconut milk, strawberry– sorry, organic coconut milk, organic strawberries, organic blueberries, grass-fed vanilla collagen, reishi (which I don’t know what this)– 

Christine: [laughs] It’s mushroom. 

Em: –organic goji berry, organic dates, turkey tail, and camu camu. 

Christine: Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. 

Em: And an immunity rescue shot, of course. 

Christine: Of course. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Maybe that’s why you feel better today, Em. [laughs] 

Em: Maybe. Maybe [laughs] it saved me. Actually, Erewhon– Thank you, Erewhon. 

Christine: Also what is turkey tail ’cause I’m starting to get concerned. ’Cause I googled turkey tail and– 

Em: I asked. It’s a mushroom. 

Christine: Oh. Phew. ’Cause I definitely googled it, and I gotta tell ya: a bunch of pictures of roasted and raw turkey came up on my page. So I’m glad that that’s not the situation. 

Em: No, that was the thing I wanted to remove ’cause I’m not a mushroom person. 

Christine: Ah, well, there’s a lot of different mushrooms in here. Looks like reishi– 

Em: I know, but the– they said there was no modifications ’cause I’m not a member. 

Christine: Oh, I see. 

Em: And I went, “I guess I’ll just suck it up, so.” 

Christine: They probably l– Literally. Through your straw. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: They probably looked at you and thought, “You need the mushroom. We’re not letting you change it.” 

Em: I know. Uh, anyway, I– My goal is to try every single one of them, and I think we’re like halfway through the list, so. 

Christine: Fantastic. I can’t wait to hear your rankings at the end. 

Em: Thank you. And bec– I’m also now having– 

Christine: I’ll never eat these probably, but– 

Em: I’m also having a fruit cup today from Erewhon, um. 

Christine: That looks like a good one though. 

Em: Ask me how much this was in Erewhon prices. 

Christine: Can I guess? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So it’s a– For those just listening, it’s, um, it’s like about a quart. And it’s straw– sliced strawberries on the bottom and pineapple on top. Is that it? 

Em: Mango. Mango, mango. 

Christine: Oh, mango, mango, mango. That changes the game for sure. I would guess $11. 

Em: It was $15. 

Christine: Okay, okay. On s– maybe member’s pricing it would be $11. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] I, uh– No, I’m– Their mango is always like the freshest mango, so– That’s the thing too is like it’s so expensive, but everything there is perfect. 

Christine: For a reason. Like there’s a reason celebrities like only get their food there ’cause they know it’s gonna be like perfect, you know. 

Em: And everything’s like– It’s also because everything’s already prepped and in like beautiful little jars and labeled. Like it’s very– It feels very Black Mirror in a way, but it’s also like– Like a lot of people who go there are like celebrities’ personal assistants who are grocery shopping for them. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And when they get to the house, the food’s already basically done for them. Um– 

Christine: Right, I got you. 

Em: Blech. Anyway, I, uh– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Capitalism really popped off today because this mango is delicious. 

Christine: And look! It worked. You’re feeling so much better. 

Em: Sometimes you need a basic bitch day. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Anyway, that’s why I drink. I’m sorry for the, the tirade there. 

Christine: Fantastic. 

Em: Hm. Anyway, is that it? Any updates on your life? 

Christine: I, I mean I think, I think that’s it. I’m just like vibing, you know. Um, I’m, uh– 

Em: Leona’s good? 

Christine: Leona’s fantastic. She’s finally fine with a– 

Em: Can you give us a potty update? 

Christine: Yeah, she’s– Well, her teacher just texted me, “She peed!” And I was like, “Yay!” 

Em: Yay! 

Christine: So she’s, she’s good. She’s figured it out as we knew she would, but it was a long [laughs] arduous couple weeks there. Um– 

Em: I feel like it’s the equivalent of like when you get, um, updates from like doggy daycare of like– 

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah. [laughs] 

Em: –“Oh, she’s sharing well, and she pooped.” [laughs] 

Christine: So apparently, daycares do that, and she hasn’t been in like a traditional daycare, but like my friends who have kids in daycare are like, “Yeah, they send like all these photo–“ Like, like they send like a little chart with like [laughs] “full diaper”– 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: –like “had a bottle,” you know. Like they put like a little sticker chart basically. Or like in the app, they like fill– they check in like “changed diaper” and– 

Em: That’s very funny. 

Christine: I’m like, “Wow, this is really like puppy daycare.” 

Em: I, I mean they’re in a phase where both of them– 

Christine: They’re similar, yeah. 

Em: –are equally cute and entertaining and also capable of doing what they can do. 

Christine: You could pro– Yeah, and probably a limited amount of, you know, report card information to include. Yeah. 

Em: This is the era where you find out if they’re naughty or nice when you’re not looking. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Much like a puppy dog, so. 

Christine: Oh, exactly. See? 

Em: Um, okay. Well, good. I’m glad that sh-she’s– her– 

Christine: She’s vibing. We’re all just having a good time. It’s cold now finally. 

Em: She’s listening to her body. That’s nice. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s finally 58 degrees. It was like 80 the other day. It’s November. 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: Feels like winter. We’re gonna get moving on some Halloween– I mean, Christmas decorations, you know. 

Em: Nice. Is she– 

Christine: Oh my god! 

Em: –is she old enough to go sledding this time? 

Christine: Skeleton was stolen again. 

Em: Christine. 

Christine: My new one. 

Em: Just stop buying it at this point. 

Christine: Oh, wait. I already talked about this ’cause I had to write, ’cause I had to write a, a “Lost My Legs.” Well, then guess what? Somebody posted, “Hey, I don’t have his legs. I think I found his torso.” And I went, “Well, that can’t be right.” And I went back and looked, and someone had come back for his torso. 

Em: Oh, yeah. You have to stop buying it at this point. 

Christine: [laughs] “You have to stop, Christine.” 

Em: [laughs] “I, I beg. I beg, please!” 

Christine: No, you know next year I’m gonna turn into my like, um, my like, um, Dennis the Menace. Like I’m gonna set up like a, a Home Alone kind of trap in front of it. 

Em: Oh, yeah. Or at least a camera that like– a, a high definition camera inside the skeleton, so you can get the face. 

Christine: Yeah, I don’t– I really– Oh! A GoPro in the skeleton. Okay, I never thought– 

Em: With a tracker. 

Christine: With a tracker. Wait, I’ll put an AirTag on him. 

Em: Yeah. Right behind the old skull noggin. 

Christine: I love this idea. 

Em: I love tracking things and then watching them go away, and then I can yell at people and not feel bad about it. [laughs] 

Christine: It– I– Okay, I love this too. I’ll join you. 

Em: It’s fun. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Okay, um. Oh, okay. Right. I do have a story for you. I forgot that that’s what we do sometimes. I– After I hang out with you when like face-to-face when we’re on tour and we don’t talk about, um– 

Christine: Work stuff? 

Em: –wo– Yeah, like I– It’s not– 

Christine: Or at least like tell each other stories. [laughs] 

Em: Our conversation, [laughs] our conversation isn’t followed with like, “Oh, I have a story for you,” I forget that that’s why we’re here. Um– 

Christine: I know. It’s hard to remember sometimes. 

Em: It’s hard to do my job. It’s hard, Christine. 

Christine: [in a small, whiny voice] It’s so hard. 

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Em’s Story – The Griggs Mansion

Em: Okay, so. Uh, yes, I have a tale for you, and this is, uh– Oh my gosh. Where is this? This is in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Christine: Oh, c– very cold up there. 

Em: And this is from– The era is the 1800s. [sings dramatic sting] ♪♪ Dun-dun-dun! ♪♪ 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And also the 1900s. [sings dramatic sting] ♪♪ Dun-dun-dun dun-dun-dun! ♪♪ 

Christine: That’s a lot of eras. That’s 200 years. 

Em: And also it gets mentioned briefly at the end of the 2000s. [sings dramatic sting] ♪♪ Dun-dun-dun dun-dun-dun dun-dun-dun dun! ♪♪ 

Christine: At the end of the 2000s? 

Em: Sorry, wait a minute. Hang on. The– At the end of my story, the 2000s get mentioned. [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, I was like, “Wow, so we– we’re skipping to the future.” 

Em: Yeah, a lot of time traveling in this one. This is the Griggs Mansion. And we start in– on New Year’s Eve, 1832. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Everyone’s celebrating. They’re like, “What, what lies ahead in 1833?” Well, they don’t have time to think about that because someone’s giving birth. And, uh– [laughs] 

Christine: Oh no! [laughs] 

Em: They’re giving– 

Christine: Always ruining the party. 

Em: They’re giving birth to our main character whose name, my friend, is Chauncey. 

Christine: No way. 

Em: Chauncey Griggs. 

Christine: Literally a giant siren just started outside. 

Em: He wants you to know he’s still here. 

Christine: Oh, you know why? I think it’s like the tor– I think it’s the tornado siren, like the practice one. But it really was good timing. Uh– 

Em: Oh my god. [laughs] 

Christine: Chauncey– You don’t have a practice siren? [laughs] 

Em: No? [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, on one Wednesday every month in Cincinnati, they do the practice like air– like emergency sirens. 

Em: Okay, but if I were a kid right now at recess and I– this was like the time and I got to be outside while I heard the siren, I would have lost my mind and told my parents about it. 

Christine: Oh, do you have any idea? We used to have the best time pretending it was like Apocalypse Now. 

Em: I totally would have played along. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I would have always hidden under the monkey bars if I was outside. 

Christine: That’s– There’s so many holes on those though. 

Em: I would have buried myself in mulch? 

Christine: I would have gone in a tunnel slide. 

Em: Ohh, good idea. 

Christine: Or tire swing. Bouncy. 

Em: See, you’ve clearly been here before. Okay. Uh– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Right, right. Fair point. I have 30 years ahead of you on this game. 

Em: You’re saying it with a dragged cigarette. You’re like, [raspy voice] “I’ve been here a long time, kid.” [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, like– [laughs] Nice. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. “Classic beginner amateur hour over here.” 

Em: And I’m just, I’m just pouring mulch on my hair. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] “This’ll save me!” Yeah, from the fake tornado that’s not happening. 

Em: Okay, um. Okay, 1832. New York’s Eve. Chauncey Griggs is born. 

Christine: Chauncey! Which sounds a lot like Chauncey Bliss, which, by the way, if you– 

Em: Trust me, I know. 

Christine: –don’t recall, folks, I had forgotten his name. Every single time I ask Em, I forget his name. Um, his name is Chauncey Bliss. He’s our Sim character that we invented on the podcast. 

Em: [in a high voice, mimicking Simlish] Hassa-fwa! Hassa-fwa! 

Christine: I don’t remem– Hassa-fwa! He says, “Hassa-fwa,” um. He does very Simlish things. Uh, I don’t remember why, but it was the funniest thing that’s ever happened to me. And to this day– 

Em: I feel like there was a story where there actually was someone named Chauncey Bliss. 

Christine: Oh, maybe. [laughs] 

Em: And I think we made– we were like, “He sounds like a Sim.” 

Christine: Oh no, we’ve just like– Oh! [laughs] 

Em: And now we think he’s only a Sim. 

Christine: Oh, I was probably– 

Em: That’s what I think. 

Christine: We were probably in a Sims era at that point, and it just sparked some discussion. Okay, okay. 

Em: You know what by the way? 

Christine: So Chauncey Griggs– 

Em: Chauncey Griggs. I will say while I’ve been sitting in my little depressive era– 

Christine: Uh-huh? 

Em: –three different times I thought, “You know what would heal me? Fuckin’ staying up all night and playing Sims.” 

Christine: I see. Oh, god. There is a Chauncey Bliss, and he was suspected in a murder! 

Em: Oh, that sounds like a Sim. He pulled the ladder out of a pool. 

Christine: He must have. A– [reading from online search] “Another proposed suspect is the caretaker, Chauncey Bliss, an eccentric–“ 

Em: Chauncey Bliss sounds like a caretaker. 

Christine: It sounds like a caretaker and a Sim. It’s the most incredible name. 

Em: I– And I also I wonder like what his first language was ’cause it might have been Simlish. 

Christine: It– Honestly, I’d be shocked if it wasn’t. 

Em: So Chauncey Griggs is born in Connecticut, and he– By 14– I don’t know if this was like because he was a, a “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” kind of man or if this was just of the 1830s era, or 1840s era– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But by 14, he’s already working full-time. And uh, then he decides, “Aw, man. I gotta turn my life around. I’m getting old. At 14.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And he moves to Michigan to go to business school, which– 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: This is how the founding fathers were 18 years old. ’Cause like– 

Christine: Yeah, this is cra– This is crazy. 

Em: How do you go to business school at 14 because you need a, a pick-me-up in your career? What the fuck is that? 

Christine: Well, it’s so sad. You like look at some of the pictures, and it’s like an eight-year-old like working hard labor at the docks in, you know, back then– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and it’s like, “Oh my god.” Like you grow up in– by the time you’re a toddler basically. It’s so sad. 

Em: I can see why old curmudgeony men are like, “What do you mean you’re eight and you don’t have a job?” Like I– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] “Y-you can’t drive? Are you kidding me?” Like, “I drove a steam ship when I was eight,” you know. 

Em: It’s wild– A steam ship? 

Christine: “I used to shovel the coal by, by hand.” 

Em: I– [laughs] I– Sorry, Allison’s creepily stealing candy from the living room and then going into the other room. That was like a little goblin experience. Um– 

Christine: Like a little gremlin. 

Em: Uh, no, I feel like– I don’t know. I see– Like not my grandparents, but my great grandparents, and they’re like, “I walked uphill both ways. Blah-blah-blah.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And in my mind, I’m like, “Can a five-year-old actu–“ Like when I’m– Like if I had to babysit a seven-year-old who like once did hard labor, I’d look at a seven-year-old, and I’m like, “I– You’re not– You can’t do that. There’s just no way.” I can’t believe they would h– I mean, I guess they had to bring money in back then. That’s all they had to do. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But I just– 

Christine: Well, and I think– 

Em: I look at a seven-year-old who plays like Minecraft or whatever they do nowadays– I don’t know. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: And I’m just like, “How on earth were you responsible for the family?” [laughs] 

Christine: No, you know what’s worse? Kids like Leona who just discovered that you can watch people playing Minecraft. Does she have any clue what Minecraft is? No. Does she like to watch people play Minecraft? I guess? 

Em: Oh, she’s about to get invested. 

Christine: I was like, “What are you doing?” Um, no, but I think a lot of the reasons those kids were sent to do that kind of labor too is that they were so small– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and so they could– like we talked about before like they could climb into like small parts of boats and, um– You know, just becau– 

Em: Well, they always had like a little kid working on a boat. Yeah. So. 

Christine: On a ship, and they– They, they can like run fast, and they’re little and– I don’t know. It’s just very sad. 

Em: It’s like how dachshunds became really powerful hunting dogs because they could get in all the little holes. 

Christine: Oh my god. Is that true? That’s hilarious. 

Em: I think they were like– They would get inside gopher holes and stuff. 

Christine: I cannot imagine a dachs– If I had a dachshund and a seven-year-old in front of me and someone said, “Which one’s better at hunting?”, I’d be like, “The seven-year-old, probably.” 

Em: [laughs] No, if you saw a seven-year-old and a dachshund in front of you and then both of them said, “Turn back around, Grandma. We got this.” 

Christine: “Off to work!” [laughs] 

Em: And then– And you just had to live your life based off of a seven-year-old and a dachshund. You just have to hope– 

Christine: [laughs] What– 

Em: [laughs] –that your life was gonna be okay. 

Christine: Why are you– “Excuse me, ma’am. Why– Excuse me, Grandma. Why are you in the, the steamboat captain’s office? This is my– This is our– The seven-year-old and the dachshund are running this ship. Go back to bed, Grandma.” 

Em: [laughs] I, I can’t imagine it. I just– Like why would Tommy Pickles tell me that he’s in control of the ship? 

Christine: Honestly, there’s something comforting about the confidence though, you know? 

Em: You know what? And maybe that– You know– 

Christine: It’s like, “Alright.” 

Em: Anyway, I could really d– f-fall into a tailspin really quickly about the confidence of children and dogs and maybe it actually is like generational trauma. I don’t know. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: [sighs] Okay. So anyway, he was 14, so he’s an old spinster at this point. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: He’s– 

Christine: Too bad. 

Em: –moved to Michigan, which I can’t imagine a 14-year-old walking across the street without me wondering what they’re doing. 

Christine: Going to the bus. Yeah, exactly. [laughs] 

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Em: He moves to Michigan on his own. He goes to business school, and he later works at a bank. Again, so now he’s in extra in control of other people’s money– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –uh, as a wee child. And in the 1850s, he thought he could do better business if he moved west, which– I don’t know if that’s a smart business move or if he’s just a dumb 14-year-old. I don’t– 

Christine: I was gonna say, his brain has not developed even remotely. Like his frontal lobe is way not there yet, so I don’t know who if– Maybe somebody guided him to do that. 

Em: Yeah, like who– Like did– Do you have more mentors back then? 

Christine: Like a guidance counselor? I have no idea. 

Em: I f– I feel like when you’re that– when you’re– I guess– ’Cause in my mind, I’m like I guess you’re technically capable of that if you’ve already moved to a whole other state by yourself and you work at a bank– 

Christine: And started business school. 

Em: –and you’ve been to business school, so maybe you do know what you’re doing in the world of business, but also you could be a 14-year-old being like, “I gotta get away from here. I just gotta move west.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And like he was just having an emo phase before they existed. 

Christine: It could be both. 

Em: Maybe it’s both. So he moves west. He moves to St. Paul, which I guess is west– 

Christine: That’s not– That’s not– Okay. That feels very 14. 

Em: [laughs] –compared to– 

Christine: “I’m getting out of this town.” To Minnesota. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] He was like, “I gotta be close just in case I need to go get my dachshund for hunting.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exa– [laughs] 

Em: Um, and he opens up a general store. One source – I love this – called him a “grocery tycoon”– 

Christine: Oh! [laughs] 

Em: –which is how I felt at Erewhon, by the way. And– 

Christine: Which is how I felt when I, when I played fucking r– Tycoon– any of the Tycoon CD-ROMs at age 14 and thought, “Is this what it’s like to be a hardscrabble 14-year-old from the 1830s?” 

Em: [laughs] I– I’m telling you when I finish this smoothie list at Erewhon, please call me a grocery tycoon. ’Cause I– 

Christine: You were like, “This is the only thing that’ll heal me.” 

Em: I’ll have it made in the shade. Um, but so apparently, he– I don’t know what he could and couldn’t do well by today’s standards, but he certainly ran the shit out of that grocery store. 

Christine: Hell yeah. 

Em: And f– Which, by the way, as a 14-year-old and you run a grocery store, I know he’s stealing snacks from his own inventory. I know it. 

Christine: Well, he’s allowed to, Em. 

Em: That’s true. He could just write those right off, I guess. I don’t know. He then becomes a merchant for lumber and coal because I guess while he’s doing the grocery store thing, he’s like, “Man–“ Maybe he was a businessman. Because he was like– 

Christine: It sounds like it. 

Em: Because he was like– 

Christine: I mean, a business boy, but, but nonetheless. 

Em: A, a, a little baby, yes. Um, at some point, I think he was like, “Well, to get food in and out of this place because of, you know, my grocery store, I should look into like getting more involved in the railroad industry.” So then he became a merchant for coal and then lumber because he got into like railroad construction, I guess, so that way a train could be built right next to his grocery store – or that was at least his plan originally. So he became a merchant, which I hate that fucking word because I, I don’t know what that means these days. 

Christine: It’s such a vague word. It feels like that word that you would just get on like some card. You know when you go to like a Titanic exhibit– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and they’re like, “Here’s your little passport.” Like– 

Em: “YOu’re a merchant.” Yeah. 

Christine: Merchant feels like what does that even mean? Like a merchant of what, you know? 

Em: I feel like everyone was a merchant. It’s like the equivalent today of someone saying like, “I’m an entrepreneur.” Like okay, shut up with that. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Like just tell me what you do. 

Christine: Except like less interesting. Except like more vague– You know what I mean? Like at least– 

Em: Like is a merchant– Are you just, are you just a salesman? Are you– 

Christine: Or like a coordinator? You know? Something where you’re like– 

Em: Are you– 

Christine: Of what? 

Em: Yeah, are you pr– a production manager? I don’t know what you do. Y– That doesn’t help me. Like “merchant”, I think “merch,” so you’re in charge of merchandise. But then again, what does that mean? 

Christine: Mer– Yeah, I guess that– He’s– I mean, if he’s doing– 

Em: It pisses me right off. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Pisses me right off. 

Christine: I’m gonna stop pretending to g– to guess then ’cause I think I’m just gonna keep poking the bear, and it’s not worth it. 

Em: [laughs] Oh, I’ll think about it halfway through the show. I’ll remember. But on the way to recording today, I was like– 

Christine: When you start shouting at me, I’ll be like, “It’s not about you, Christine. It’s about the merchant thing.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Don’t take it personally.” 

Em: I thought about something earlier where I was like– Oh, oh, oh, okay. I remember already. On the way here, I was thinking, “I gotta remember. I gotta remember this for the show so I can tell Christine that it pisses me right off when this happens.” 

Christine: [laughs] [wheezing] “Pisses me right off.” 

Em: Because it– [laughs] I remembered it right now. You know what I can’t fucking stand? You know what grinds my goddamn gears, Christine? 

Christine: You tell me. 

Em: Is when someone takes too long to say goodbye on the phone. I cannot– 

Christine: Why do you th– I don’t get on the phone for this, among many other reasons. 

Em: I have ha– My mother is a, a criminal in this case where all she does is say goodbye 18– 

Christine: I would argue a felon. 

Em: She’s actually basically, uh, like– 

Christine: Al Capone. 

Em: –first-degree murderer– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –when it comes to this. Um, like she will say goodbye 18 fucking times. Like she’ll, she’ll try it in 18 different ways. I’m like, “Can you just fucking say goodbye? I’m so tired.” 

Christine: Do you know what’s so out of control is my mom? I will go, “Well, okay. I gotta pick up Leona,” and she’ll go, “Okay, bye,” and hang up before I can even like finish my sentence. So like I’ve– 

Em: Honestly, I respect it. 

Christine: No, it’s great, but I totally know what you mean. And this is– that is re– one of the top five reasons probably why I don’t ever get on the phone. 

Em: Honestly, Renate probably has the same pet peeve I do. 

Christine: Maybe! 

Em: But I will listen to my mom go, “Well, I’ve gotta go. Oh my god, by the way, did I tell you this? Okay, well, I’m gonna go.” 

Christine: “Oh, one last thing.” [laughs] 

Em: “What are you doing right now?” I’m like, “Why would you fucking ask that as you’re telling me goodbye. Why would you do that?” 

Christine: [laughs] “I’m gonna hang up. What are you doing?” 

Em: It, it’s her favorite line. She’ll always– I think she’s trying to get me to do the whole like, “Okay, well, I’m gonna go do this now,” but like now you’ve just opened up a whole other conversation and whatever I say next you’re gonna do a follow-up question, then you’re gonna do a– Now we’re just talking again. Like I’m– Aah! It drives me fucking bonkers. 

Christine: I think honestly my mom’s afraid to know what I’m doing and doesn’t care. So she’s like, “Please don’t tell me. I’m just gonna hang up.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m like, “I’m gonna get L–“ “Okay, I’m not interested. Bye!” 

Em: I’ve got– I’ve gotten into a habit with my mom where I just interrupt her now. It’s like I’m so– I– Sometimes I go back to my teenage years with her, and I can hear how rude I am, but also adult me doesn’t really care either. I’m just like, “You deserve this based on how you’re acting.” [laughs] 

Christine: Well, it seems like she doesn’t– she is not fazed, right? 

Em: I don’t think she is ’cause she keeps continuing it. 

Christine: She does it anyway, yeah. 

Em: I think– Maybe she thinks– She must think I’m the problem. But I’ll just interrupt her and go, “I’m going now, bye.” Like I just can’t tolerate this. Like we have wasted an extra 20 minutes of my life. So that’s what really pisses me right off. 

Christine: Grinds my gears. Does gri– And what does Jim Harold say? “T-s me right off.” 

Em: Oh, it f– It, it frickin’ T-s– I– Oh, “I’m so frickin’ T-O-ed.” 

Christine: It– “Frickin’ T-ed off,” he said. He said, “I’m frickin’ T-ed off.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And we said, “You know how like I do–“ I don’t know if you guys know that I– 

Em: No, he said “T-O-ed.” I was like, “You can’t even say the word ‘off’?” 

Christine: It’s really good. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I think he said “T-ed off.” I think he said “T-ed off.” Well, we can go– 

Em: Either way, it was good. 

Christine: We’ll rewind the tape, but basically– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: ’Cause it deserves being like, uh, verbatim. But you know how– I don’t know if you guys know this, but I’m known for like “the claw,” which is like when we’re together– 

Em: Oh! The Christine claw. 

Christine: [laughs] The Christine claw. I will like grab somebody’s u– kinda upper arm, like their elbow area. 

Em: Right here. [gestures to their wrist and forearm] I don’t know what the deal is, but you like it right here. 

Christine: No, it’s here. [grabs the outside of her right elbow with her left hand in a C-shape] 

Em: No, if you can’t reach it, you get me right here all the time. [taps their forearm] 

Christine: Oh, okay. Yeah, it’s wherever my, my claw can [laughs] obtain purchase. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, and if I– [laughs] When we– There was like a, a, a psychic claw between us when that happened– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –’cause we both were like, “Did you just hear that?” But we, we weren’t in person. 

Em: It’s like we’re– We both clocked it. We would talk about it later at dinner, yeah. 

Christine: It was like that like virtual claw of like, “Oh my god, did you just hear him say, ‘I’m freakin’ T-ed off.’” And the thing was he was actually really pissed off, and it was so f– so funny. 

Em: That was truly the most Midwestern way he could have handled it. 

Christine: And it wasn’t on air either. Like he was just talking to us. It’s not like he had to like censor himself for the show. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: He’s just a dad, and that’s how he talks. And we were like, “Ah, ‘freakin’ T-ed off is the funniest thing.” 

Em: I– It was beautiful. Anyway, you know what really T-s me off is having to hear someone say goodbye 13 times. 

Christine: [laughs] I mean, yeah. 

Em: And by the way, I know I’m also, I’m also, uh, guilty of this because every time we can’t end an episode, we do it. So– 

Christine: I mean, yeah. Like we clearly are the problems here. But that’s okay. 

Em: I– It’s okay when I do it. I can’t stand it when other people do it though, so. 

Christine: No, that’s usually how these things go. 

Em: And it pisses me off just as much as not knowing what the word “merchant” is. And this man’s a fucking merchant of lumber and coal– 

Christine: Okay, that’s pretty clear. He’s– 

Em: –and apparently, groceries. 

Christine: –mer– merchant– Oh, yeah, you’re right. It still doesn’t make sense. 

Em: He, he works amongst those industries, I guess. 

Christine: That’s fine. 

Em: And then he ends up having to cancel all of them because– Chauncey Griggs. He decides that he has to– I don’t know if he decided this. He has to go join the Civil War. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: He joins the Union, thank god. 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: And, uh, he climbs the ranks, uh, surprisingly fast to me, but maybe that’s the norm of a fucking 14-year-old grocer/banker/lumber merchant. 

Christine: Well, he showed up and said, “I’m a lumber merchant,” and they were like, “Well, shit. You seem pretty advanced compared to us farm boys, I guess.” 

Em: At one point in like Vicksburg, he worked alongside like General Grant or something. Like he was– 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: He seems to have done well in the army. 

Christine: Uh-huh, Uh-huh. 

Em: Um, and he’s discharged by 1863 because of an illness, which I feel like that wouldn’t get you off these days. Feel like you just get sick and just keep being in the army. 

Christine: Yeah, but when they said illness back there– then, it was probably like several of his limbs fell off, you know. 

Em: Oh, right. [laughs] 

Christine: And they’re like, “He’s had a bad– He’s just feeling under the weather.” 

Em: “The consumption’s taken him.” 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] So he goes back to being a merchant, and then he later joins the state legislature and the Minnesota Senate. So like, um, this guy– I don’t know if he’s– I don’t know if this is normal. I can’t tell ’cause it’s just the 1800s– 

Christine: I don’t think so. I think it’s just one of those where he got on a path, and it was like, “Okay, you’re, uh–“ 

Em: I would– 

Christine: “–advancing very rapidly. This is your, this is your track now.” 

Em: He’s just one of the l– the lucky ones. 

Christine: ’Cause I’m sure like a normal farm kid like isn’t, you know, a merchant of whatever. You know, I’m sure there were plenty of people who are just your average blue-collar– 

Em: I would like to go back to the 1800s and see how quickly I could climb the ranks of any industry. I think I– I mean, I would need like my phone charger, but I could [laughs] you know, do the rest. 

Christine: You’d need your phone charger. You’d probably need like an entire change of– 

Em: A Brita. 

Christine: [laughs] A Brita? 

Em: My Propranolol. [laughs] 

Christine: Alright, yeah. We would– Let’s be real. Let’s just be real. 

Em: I wonder what they would give me instead of Propranolol at the apothecary in the 1800s. It would be– 

Christine: Cocaine. 

Em: –cocaine. Yeah, for sure. 

Christine: Except that would probably do the opposite– 

Em: It would kill me. 

Christine: –and make your heart spin out, yeah. 

Em: Uh, eventually he gets married. Let’s see, he was born in ’80– No, he was born in ’32, and now we’re in ’59. So he’s 27? Okay, so he waited long to get married. Um, he married Martha Ann Gallup, and over the years, they had five kids. And in the 1880s, they wanted a house in the area, and they built a house on Summit Avenue, which is a big deal. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: It came to be known as this like massive row of Victorian mansions that still stands today. 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: And many, uh, notable figures lived on this row. Sinclair Lewis lived on this row. Um, today, the– Uh, it’s still known as like one of the best-preserved strips of Victorian era homes in the country. 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: And it’s– has been named one of the ten “Great Streets” in the country. 

Christine: Oh my gosh. 

Em: Which– Can you imagine walking down the street for Christmas lights? 

Christine: Oh, my– And Halloween. Oh! 

Em: Are you kidding me right now? 

Christine: Are you kidding me? 

Em: Meanwhile, Frank Lloyd Wright called it “the worst collection of architecture in the world.” 

Christine: [laughs] He’s such a little dick. 

Em: [laughs] He was like, “Well, I didn’t make it, so it’s gotta be bad.” 

Christine: First of all, relax. Just ’cause it’s not a bunch of rectangles topped on top of each other with a waterfall coming through it– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –okay? Like not everybody’s gonna be so extra. 

Em: Not everyone could have a waterfall, especially in the 1880s, please. 

Christine: Sheesh. 

Em: Um, so anyway, Summit Avenue to this day is a, a big thing. You can still go there and walk around and all that. So– 

Christine: Although I have heard– I, I will give him a little credit that I have watched one of those– You know those like four hour YouTube videos where you’re like, “Oh, I know nothing about this, but I’m just gonna sit here in awe as I watch four hours of somebody discuss like how the lines work as a Disney FastPass.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Like that kind of thing, and you’re like, “Whoa.” So I watched one once about the history of Victorian houses and how they were actually considered the McMansions of their time– 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: –because they were so gaudy and like over the top. And so they’d have, you know, turrets that didn’t really lead to anything. They’d have like chimneys in really like nonsensical places. And they were just meant to look really grand and imposing and beautiful, and so people back then thought they were like these atr– monstrosities because they were– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: They were like very gauche, very like new money, and so they were basically the McMansions of their era. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And now we look back and think, “Oh, what a beautiful piece of architecture,” [laughs] you know, but– 

Em: Which is wild– I mean, that’s one of my favorite fun facts is that people during the Victorian era thought Victorian homes were ugly. I’m like– 

Christine: Just like so tacky, you know. 

Em: And I don’t know what it is about them now. I think, I think it helps that a lot of us are really into year-round spooky season– 

Christine: I think so too. 

Em: –because it does look like a witch should live there. 

Christine: I think so too. 

Em: But, um, yeah, that’s so wild to me that it just– 

Christine: Isn’t that interesting? 

Em: I mean, I get it too because it sure looked like, “Ugh, just rich people just adding things onto buildings when you could use that money somewhere else.” I totally get that. 

Christine: Or just like, “What do you think you’re trying to prove? Like why are you putting a chimney there when there’s no fireplace?” Or whatever. [laughs] 

Em: It’s– I, I feel like it felt like then how it feels now when someone gets like a really annoying sports car and flies it down your neighborhood at 2 in the morning. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: It’s just like, “Ugh, shut up!” 

Christine: It’s like, “Really? That’s so– Like you know you’re not going more than 30 miles per hour. It’s Los Angeles, you know.” 

Em: Like and no one is ex– impressed. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: We’re all slow clapping for how embarrassing you look. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So maybe that’s how they felt about people getting Victorian homes. 

Christine: I think it’s the same idea, yeah. 

Em: Um, so Chauncey Griggs– He get– goes to Summit Avenue. He’s like, “This is gonna be the place,” and he builds his mansion on Summit Avenue at number 476. It is a private residence today, so look from afar. Um, but it is famously known in town as the Griggs Mansion– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –so I’m not like spilling information. But when he had it built, it ended up being 4 stories, 24 rooms – 10 of which were bedrooms. 

Christine: Holy shit. 

Em: Which– How many guests are you having at a time that you need ten bedrooms? 

Christine: Ten– Well, how many kids did they have? 

Em: They had five. 

Christine: Oy vey. Yeah, and you can put three or four of them in one room at that time for sure, so. 

Em: Yeah, back then you weren’t– not everyone got their own room. 

Christine: They’re all in one big room. What the fuck? 

Em: Uh, nine fireplaces, fun fact. And it cost– I know you love this part. 

Christine: I do. 

Em: It cost $35,000 at the time, which is $1.2 million today. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And I’ll tell you: $1.2 million today could not get you a 24 room house. [laughs] 

Christine: To build a house? I mean, you know, maybe it’s like the area was so kind of not desirable yet? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like maybe that was just not– But it sounds like there were already mansions on there and it was already a desirable spot. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: I don’t know. And it was in like what would be a major railroad city and all that. 

Christine: Well, you know what? Hang on. He’s a merchant of lumber or something. Maybe he got some discounts. 

Em: Ohh. You’re totally right. 

Christine: Right? 

Em: He did that little five finger discount. 

Christine: I think so. 

Em: Just swiped some lumber. Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. Uh, they also built a carriage house in the back which still stands today. Fun fact: the carriage house cost $12,000, which is $400K today. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: A half a million dollar fucking carriage house. 

Christine: [unintelligible from laughter] On top of the house. It’s like half the price of the whole house. 

Em: Yes! I’m like how on earth? Like at that point– So that, technically, if it’s half the size of the house, it could have like 12 bedrooms in it or something. 

Christine: Maybe he’d used up all his good will with the lumber folks– 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: –and they were like, “We’re done giving you free stuff. You gotta pay for this one.” 

Em: Maybe, maybe it was supposed to be added onto the real house and he just didn’t get enough wood to like connect them. And now they’re just two spaces. 

Christine: Yeah, he was– Sorry, the horses don’t get, don’t get special treatment. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

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Em: [laughs] So despite the, um, luxurious mansion that they built, the Griggs family only lived there for four years. I cannot imagine only living somewhere for four years– 

Christine: Four years? 

Em: –after spending basically $2 million. 

Christine: I have just lived four years in this house, and I was just saying to somebody I finally feel like it’s our house. Like I finally feel like we’re starting to make it like our own. I mean, jeez. That’s fast. 

Em: You know what’s so weird is apparently like around five years is the number to get adjusted to a big change. And I remember when I first moved to LA, an Uber driver was like, “Oh, give it five years. You’ll feel like a local.” And I was like, “Five years? I’m not gonna be here in five years.” 

Christine: Five years? 

Em: I was like, “That’s a long fucking time to expect me to just wait around.” But he was right. After five years, I was like, “Oh, I feel like I know what I’m doing in LA.” 

Christine: I agree. It took me about four. And then in this house, it’s about four, four and a half. Yeah, that’s a good point, Em. I hadn’t really thought of that. 

Em: So maybe it just takes half a decade. Yuck. Um– 

Christine: Easy-peasy. 

Em: Give a twentieth of your life, you know, and just see what happens. 

Christine: It’s no big deal. 

Em: So anyway, they only lived there for four years, and they ended up moving to Tacoma, Washington, which I guess is west also com– Maybe he thought, “The west thing worked last time; I’m gonna move west again.” 

Christine: Maybe he finally got a map and was like, “Oh, shit. I thought I went West.” 

Em: [laughs] Like, “I only made it halfway.” 

Christine: “I’m, I’m in the Midwest. Oops.” 

Em: [laughs] So he moves to Tacoma with his family. And in 1910, he dies, uh, but he, you know– All the way West. 

Christine: [laughs] The end. 

Em: [laughs] The end. 

Christine: “And then he dies.” [laughs] It’s like such an anticlimactic way to e– You’re like telling me everything about his different industries and his– how many rooms his house had. And then he moved, and he died. Okay. Anyway. 

Em: Well, so th– Okay, I’ll give, I’ll give you a fun fact then. When he died, it was 1910. The same year he died in Washington, the Griggs Mansion caught on fire. And it– 

Christine: In Washington? Oh, oh! 

Em: He, he died in Tacoma, Washington. 

Christine: Oh, so he built a new one in Washington. 

Em: No, no, no. He dies in Tacoma, Washington. Period. 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: The y– The same year that he died while he was in Tacoma, Washington, going back to the Griggs Mansion in– 

Christine: Oh, oh! In– 

Em: –in St. Paul. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: The same year he dies, the house he built years ago catches on fire. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And it nearly totally destroyed the building. It had to be completely restored, and during this time, it also got turned into apartments – or parts of it got turned into apartments. 

Christine: Oh my gosh. 

Em: I think the, the bottom half became apartments and the top part didn’t. I don’t totally understand. Um, but in 1939, the mansion was donated to the St. Paul School and Gallery of Art, and it became an art school. And it became an art school that, um, because it had apartments at the, at the bottom, now students and staff could basically live on campus. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, I don’t know how big the apartments are because I’d like to know how many staff and students– Like was there a lottery of whether or not you could live on campus, or– 

Christine: Right, ’cause if there are ten rooms– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –ten bedrooms, like– Do– Is it like two per bedroom? 

Em: And were they mass– ’Cause I don't know the square footage either. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Maybe those ten bedrooms could be split up into multiple spaces. 

Christine: Right. Interesting. 

Em: ’Cause it could have been all studios, you know. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Anyway, so staff and students could live there. I don’t know the process on that. 

Christine: That’s pretty cool. 

Em: And, uh, they claimed to see and feel weird things throughout the mansion. When it was a school, they could feel something lurking over their shoulders when they worked on their art projects. Some of them would literally see a man standing behind their easels while they worked– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –and then dart away. Are you kidding me? Imagine like focusing so hard on, on like your computer screen that you don’t even see what’s going around your computer screen. And when you lift your eyes up for a second, a man is fucking standing there and like darts off. 

Christine: And then he’s like, “Ah!” and runs away? Yeah, forget it. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] Um, others claim– 

Christine: It’s like, “No, I’m scared, not you.” Jesus. 

Em: Others claim that at night they would be shaken awake while in their beds, and they would see apparitions in their room. 

Christine: What? 

Em: One student saw a child floating above their bed. 

Christine: Oh, good. 

Em: And one professor saw, uh, an apparition that he originally thought was an intruder. 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: Um, this guy– His name was Dr. Kolb. And when he was staying there, he said, “I awoke and saw a figure at the foot of my bed. It was a thin figure dressed in black.” 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: “I remember clearly it wore a top hat.” 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: And then he watched the figure dissolve into the brick wall of his room. 

Christine: Oh, it makes me wonder if it’s like just the Hat Man or if it was actually– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m serious. 

Em: Was he just taking the 1930s version of like Benadryl before he went to bed? 

Christine: Right? Oh my god, yes, he– which is cocaine. Um– 

Em: [laughs] It’s all cocaine. 

Christine: Creepy. 

Em: Uh, yeah, so I, I can’t imagine like having to– You’re getting shaken awake by ghosts, seeing them floating above you– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and then you have to go to class the next day where they’re now staring over you– 

Christine: And, and– 

Em: –and looking past your easel and probably judging your art. 

Christine: And like especially– Oh, for sure judging. And, and being like the, the art instructor too. Like imagine having to be in charge, and then you’re like, “Wait, shit. Now I’m scared.” [laughs] 

Em: Yes! 

Christine: “And now I don’t know what to say.” Like– [laughs] “They’re onto something.” 

Em: I would be like, “Class dismissed. I’m so fucking tired of this.” 

Christine: Yeah, “Bye.” 

Em: Yeah, [laughs] I, I can’t imagine– Maybe that’s how so few people were able to live there at a time because people just kept fleeing. 

Christine: Oh, right. 

Em: They’re like, “Oh, there’s always a vacancy.” 

Christine: “Oh, this child has kicked me out of my bed again.” 

Em: Or like, “I’m so, I’m so scared of the ghost. I’m gonna leave.” And then ano-another unassuming person takes their rent over. 

Christine: I mean, it kinda tracks. 

Em: And they just keep switching. So this was, um, two nights– Oh, sorry. He saw the, the Hat Man maybe, uh– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –two nights after he’d already woken up to seeing flashing lights in his room and feeling ice cold fingers pressing into his forehead. 

Christine: Oh, actually, you know what? That feels kinda nice. Like I feel like I would like that for my sinuses. 

Em: Maybe if you had a migraine. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] Like I feel like that would really help me– my sinuses [pronounced “zinuses”], but I know that’s not the idea. 

Em: I’m so sorry. Did you just say “zinuses”, my sweet little German? 

Christine: I said “sinuses.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] I don’t believe you. 

Christine: I swear I said “sinuses.” 

Em: Say “September” right now. [laughs] 

Christine: No. Don’t– You can’t put me on the spot like that. It’s November. You have like ten more months before that has to happen again. [laughs] 

Em: You know what’s so sad? Well, maybe it’s not sad that we– 

Christine: You tell me. 

Em: We have to, we have to remember before the Thanksgiving episode to do “Pass the Cranberry Sauce.” That’s what I’m gonna say. 

Christine: We’ll remember. Eva? [laughs] 

Em: Eva, write that down. 

Christine: And by “we,” I mean somebody will remember. [laughs] It’s not me. 

Em: Um, okay. So, yeah. He wakes up. He sees flashes of light. He feels fingers on his head, and then he wakes up and sees the Hat Man two days later. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, that’s not good. 

Em: Uh, Griggs Mansion, now an art school– It was an art school from ’39 into the ‘60s. 

Christine: Oh, okay. Couple decades. 

Em: So a lot of time for people to see ghosts there. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And when the school relocated to– I think it became– There was another building called like the St. Paul Arts and Science Center. I think they relocated over there. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: Apparently, a lot of students and teachers were like not upset about it ’cause they were like, “This place is so fucking haunted. Please get us out of here.” 

Christine: “We’re done with this fucking– with this fucking nouveau riche bullshit McMansion–” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “–full of ghosts.” [laughs] 

Em: Although, I will say, it had to be lovely aesthetically to be a– an art school in a Victorian mansion. 

Christine: Imagine an art school? [groans] Beautiful. 

Em: Beautiful. Stunning. 

Christine: Yeah. [in vague European accent] Stunning. 

Em: So when the school moved out, the Griggs Mansion became a private residence again and this time to a guy named Carl Weschcke [pronounced “wesk”]. I think that’s how you say it. Uh, one source literally had the pronunciation, and it said “wesk,” so. 

Christine: Oh, fantastic. 

Em: Uh, Carl was a well-known occult book publisher. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: He was in charge of Llewelyn Publishing– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –which apparently is, quote, “the oldest and largest publisher of New Age, Metaphysical, Self-Help, and Spirituality books in the world.” 

Christine: Yes, I know about them actually. 

Em: Oh, great. Okay. So he, um, was in charge of that publishing company. 

Christine: They do a lot of like wi– Wiccan– witchcraft and Wiccan, uh, stuff. 

Em: Fun fact: one of the things that Llewelyn, um, Publishing is responsible for is FATE Magazine, which I have talked about in previous episodes. 

Christine: Yeah! [gasps] Fun. 

Em: Um, I forgot all about FATE Magazine. Uh, and then I looked in my emails, and apparently, I have been subscribed for a while, and I get all their mass emails. 

Christine: [laughs] You’re like, “This is ringing some weird bell.” Like Gmail is always doing that thing up top like, “You haven’t opened this for a while. Should you unsubscribe?” and it never works. 

Em: Yes, yes– I– [laughs] I looked in my– one of the folders where it doesn’t just pop up in your inbox, and all of a sudden it all just said FATE Magazine updates. Um– 

Christine: Actually, that feels very fateful though. Doesn’t it? Like very fated. 

Em: Doesn’t it? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I was like f– Well, I read about it, and I was like, “I feel like I’ve heard of that before.” 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: And then I looked it up on my own phone, and I went, “Oh, it’s–“ 

Christine: [laughs] “I’m a fucking subscriber.” 

Em: Um, and fun fact about FATE Magazine: Stephen King’s mom used to read him articles from FATE Magazine which is what inspired him to write his own stories. 

Christine: I just got a little goose cam– Maybe I should buy thi– or buy this– Maybe I should subscribe. Or you just forward me the emails, and I can read them to Leona. 

Em: Maybe I– Maybe we just share a subscription, yeah. 

Christine: Whoa, this is cool! 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Sorry, I just went on there. And it looks like LIFE Magazine, but they replace the word “LIFE” with– 

Em: With “FATE”. 

Christine: –“FATE”. 

Em: Isn’t that so funny? 

Christine: I love this. 

Em: Um, so here’s another thing about Carl. Because not only he was a pu– like in charge of the biggest occult book publishing company, but he was also at different times the Minnesota vice president for the ACLU– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –and the Minnesota president for the NAACP. 

Christine: Kick-ass. 

Em: And this is from a blog called WildHunt, and it was like a goodbye obituary kinda letter to him after he passed. But I thought this was like one of the coolest things I had ever seen in an obituary. So– 

Christine: And this is for this, this guy, this guy who– 

Em: The Carl guy who moved in after the building was a school. 

Christine: Carl. Okay, gotcha. 

Em: So he ran the publishing company, um, and then apparently, he also did this stuff. 

Christine: Okay. 

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Em: [from WildHunt.org] “When he took over Llewelyn, Carl was one of the first to ever produce Pagan music recordings on the brand new ‘cassette tape technology.’” 

Christine: [in excitement] Ah! 

Em: “He helped organize a local festival, called the ‘First American Aquarian Festival of Astrology and the Occult Sciences,’” … [which he] later renamed [to] ‘Gnosticon.’ He was–” 

Christine: Ooh! What is that backwards? That feels like Erewhon. 

Em: [laughs] “He was initiated into the American Celtic Tradition Witchcraft, helped organize the American Council of Witches, and referred Pentagon staff in crafting the updated version of the Witchcraft and Wicca section of the US Army Chaplain’s Handbook.” 

Christine: That’s a thing? 

Em: Apparently so. 

Christine: Love this. 

Em: If someone is in the army and has a Chaplain’s Handbook, can you please show us the Witchcraft and Wicca section? Thank you so much. 

Christine: Holy shit. 

Em: Um, so he was obviously big in occult. So I can’t imagine he just randomly moved into the Griggs Mansion just– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –when it had a haunted history. Um. 

Christine: [sighs] So cool. 

Em: He actually ran the occult publishing company, Llewelyn Publishing, from this property for many years. 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: And I feel like that’s very apropos– 

Christine: It is. 

Em: –of like, “I’m going to run an occult book company out of a haunted house.” 

Christine: This like haunted Victorian manor, for sure. 

Em: Uh, even in, in 1969, when he was living there, he also had reporters come stay overnight for an article about the mansion’s ghostly rumors– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: –um, which I’ll get to in a second. But when he was moving into the house and he started doing renovating, one of the windows kept opening. And he was like, “Oh, man. Like I’m so fucking annoyed with this.” So he literally nailed it shut, and the next morning, the nails were out, and the window was wide open. Yuck. 

Christine: Oh, boy. 

Em: On other occasions, he would hear footsteps throughout the house. He would hear doors opening and closing on their own. And another time, Carl was on the stairs and felt himself literally get thrown into the air. 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: Um, one source said that, um, one night while Carl was out, a neighbor called the police because he heard wailing from inside the mansion. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And he’s like, “You gotta get over there. Something’s going on.” The cops get in there and literally find a man crouching in the corner– 

Christine: Like a different man. 

Em: –who is not Carl– who is not Carl. 

Christine: Oh no! 

Em: So I guess he broke in? I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t to– 

Christine: Eugh! What the fuck? 

Em: I’m confused because this one source did not give like more explanatory information. Um, but– 

Christine: Yeah, it feels like you should explain that a little more because like what was the wailing from? 

Em: Yeah, well, was it him? Because– See, here’s the thing. They found this guy crouching in the corner. He was shivering. And at the same time that they find him, somewhere else in the house they hear howling, which they never found a source for. 

Christine: What? 

Em: They didn’t know what to do. They looked around the house. They found nothing else suspicious, but they brought the man, who, I’m assuming, broke into the house– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: Uh, they brought the man to the cop car, and he just kept saying, “I’ve seen death. I’ve seen death.” 

Christine: Whoa! Maybe– 

Em: And he was– 

Christine: Maybe Carl had boobytrapped the house for intruders. 

Em: [laughs] Maybe. 

Christine: Like I did, you know. And it’s like just– It’s just like something swoops down like a haunted house attraction. 

Em: You know what? Let’s go with that. Because I honestly have no other explanation for it. 

Christine: Yeah, that otherwise does not make any sense. 

Em: I mean, maybe the guy was like kind of a stalker, and he was like really into occult books and like wanted to go to the publishing company and like broke in? 

Christine: And was like– 

Em: Or he heard– Maybe he was a guy who just heard the Griggs Mansion is haunted and tried to get in there– 

Christine: And like got spooked or something, or–? 

Em: –and got spooked. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I don’t know, but– So that’s just another weird thing that they found– 

Christine: Was Carl like home? 

Em: No, he like was out for the night, and his neighbor called ’cause he heard– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: The neighbor heard crying. 

Christine: Oh, his neighbor– I see, I see. Okay, so, so he wasn’t the one wailing. Like Carl wasn’t even there. 

Em: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: Okay. That’s weird. 

Em: Or howling. I mean, imagine coming home and hearing that someone broke in, they heard howling, he was freaking out and said he saw death in your house. 

Christine: Well, and then, they couldn’t find the source of the howling. And you’re like, “Well, shit.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Is it still here? Like is it under my bed?” I mean, Jesus. 

Em: Well, another time, Carl saw an apparition of a man standing in the library doorway. 

Christine: [sarcastically] Good. 

Em: And apparently, they just stared at each other. 

Christine: Good. 

Em: He said, “Neither of us moved. There was no sound. We just kept standing there face-to-face. He wore a dark suit. His face was long and thin. His hair was bushy and white. He seemed to have an expression of surprise when he saw me” and then faded away. 

Christine: Wow, that is so cool. 

Em: Which I love when the ghosts seem surprised. 

Christine: I do too. I do too. 

Em: Because it’s like, “Oh my god, we’re both freaking out right now.” 

Christine: Like, “Wait a minute. You can see me? And I can see you? Holy shit.” 

Em: Um, but that– So that could have also been the Hat Man but not wearing his hat because it sounded like the same thin man in a suit with white hair. 

Christine: Oh, so then maybe it is– Yeah, maybe it is, um, Chauncey Bliss. 

Em: It could be Chauncey. They also think it might be, um, like one of the old caretakers. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: Um, because apparently he really liked the library and that’s where he saw him at least once. 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: Um, it’s also– So yeah, it’s thought that when Dr. Kolb, who felt the cold fingers on his forehead and he saw the Hat Man– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: We– We’re thinking maybe it’s the same guy. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And they both saw, they both saw the same ghost. Um, so anyway. 1969, this when the journalists from the St. Paul Pioneer Press stay overnight for an article about the hauntings. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And they brought along with them a psychic/medium named Roma Harris. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And as soon as Roma got there, Roma said, “the house had a heaviness about it.” And he felt a “shadowy presence” of a teenager named Amy– 

Christine: Mm! 

Em: New character on the scene. And we don’t know what Amy has to do with the property, but apparently, she liked to play piano in the house when she was there, so maybe she was a student at some point. 

Christine: Ooh, or what about– Did he have any kids named Amy? 

Em: I don’t know if he had any kids named Amy, but it could have been one of his kids. 

Christine: ’Cause like to play the piano like maybe she, she lived there for a few years. I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah, but also if you’re an art student, maybe there was like a random piano somewhere. 

Christine: That’s true. Yeah, that’s true. 

Em: Um, Roma also sensed a Civil War soldier wearing blue, which would make sense because Chauncey– 

Christine: Oh, yes! 

Em: –would have done that. So maybe he’s still checking on the mansion. And Roma also sensed that someone at some point was shoved and fell on the property, but it was an accident. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: But sounds like– 

Christine: It was an accident. [laughs] Oops! 

Em: [laughs] I was like, “Way to, way to cover for whoever did that back then.” 

Christine: Yeah, “they didn’t mean to shove you down the fucking stairs.” Okay. 

Em: So the reporters– They had the medium come with them for the first half of the investigation, and Roma ended up leaving after being like, “This is what I sensed. Good luck for the night.” And the reporters were left there by themselves. And they were some punkass bitches. 

Christine: Oh, great. 

Em: Because they heard heavy footsteps and creaking. And that’s it. And they fucking fled the house. 

Christine: Wait, what? Oh, I thought you were gonna say they were like– 

Em: Oh, like jerks or something? 

Christine: –fighting back with it. Yeah. 

Em: No. 

Christine: Oh, so they were just little babies. 

Em: Yeah, they just– I was like, “Are, are you and I better ghost hunters?” 

Christine: Seriously? I mean, that can’t be right. [laughs] 

Em: But they literally just heard footsteps and creaking. And at one point, one of them like felt a presence nearby, and they were like, “I’m out”– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –and never back. The– It was quoted in their article saying, “We all agreed on one thing. There is no prize on earth that could get us to spend a single night alone in that great stone house.” 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: I love that they’re so quick to scared– to being scared. 

Christine: They were real– I mean, people lived there and dealt with this, but okay. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Um, imagine if they saw that window with the nails fly open, you know. 

Christine: Aah! Imagine if they saw the child floating above them in bed. 

Em: Um, imagine if they had fingers pressed into their head. 

Christine: Actually, that might be nice. Again, I, I, I beg of these ghosts. Please give me some sinus relief. 

Em: [laughs] After Carl eventually moved out, the mansion switched between many hands, and we don’t know how many. We don’t know why they left. But we do know that weirdly anyone who’s ever moved in has very quickly moved out. 

Christine: Okay, okay. 

Em: So maybe they’re all just scared of footsteps. Maybe something scarier is happening. 

Christine: Maybe there’s just like that energy, you know? It sounds like the psychic/medium was like, “Ooh, the vibes are not good.” Maybe like after moving in, you’re like, “I don’t feel good here,” you know? 

Em: Yeah, yeah. Um, in the early 2000s, it was on the market for a very long time, and it dropped quite a significant amount price-wise because they were just desperate to sell it. And, uh, it eventually sold I think in 2012, and it’s now a private residence. Um– 

Christine: That was also the, uh, recession too. 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: Like ’08. 

Em: So yeah, that might have had something to do with it then. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Uh, as last reported, the mansion still has original stained glass, wood paneling, and that carriage house out in the back. So– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, the other– There’s not too many, but other popular ghosts here: The first one that every source mentioned was that in 1915 there was a maid who worked here. And she was a– because she always fucking is – was jilted by her lover. 

Christine: Of course. 

Em: And she apparently hanged herself on the fourth floor landing. 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: And because of that, now the fourth floor is said to be the most active spot where people hear a lot of footsteps. 

Christine: Oh my lord. 

Em: So that– Maybe they freaked out because they knew that story and it confirmed the rumor and that was enough for them. Um, and people also claim to see a white mist near the landing. They sense overwhelming doom. 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: People get sick. People hear crying in empty rooms on the fourth floor. Um, and people will also hear like dragging footsteps that like– more ominous. 

Christine: Ew. 

Em: When I told you that there was a caretaker in– near the library? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: That maybe this is the Hat Man that everyone’s seeing? People think it could have been the caretaker or the gardener. His name was Charles Wade, and he allegedly would spend hours and hours in the library, which like sounds like you’re not doing your job, Charles. And he– 

Christine: [laughs] Maybe he’s dusting the books. 

Em: [laughs] Well, uh, he’s now seen here, and he’s heard flipping through the book pages. You can hear pages always turning in there. 

Christine: Oh, that’s cool! 

Em: And, of course, there’s the white-haired man in the suit and the top hat. So I– Again, I, I can’t tell if the Hat Man and Charles the caretaker are the same person– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –but maybe not ’cause if you’re a caretaker/gardener, I don’t know why you would be in a suit and top hat. Um– 

Christine: I mean, maybe back then that was like your– 

Em: The standard? 

Christine: No, not a gardener, I guess. Maybe– Well, you know what? Maybe it’s like one of those situations where he’s like the, the manager of the gardening staff or something or the cleaning staff. 

Em: The garden merchant. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Garden merchant. Like maybe he’s like the, the home caretaker, you know, like the top guy, and he like directs and delegates. I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah, maybe. I don’t know. 

Christine: I feel like that was a thing. 

Em: Uh, like the one in charge of all the other servants. The head servant. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, something like that. 

Em: People also see, like I said, shadows darting around. They feel something brushing by them. They hear doors opening and closing. They’ll hear a lot of coughing in empty rooms. Items will fly off the shelves by themselves. Light bulbs have shattered on their own. Yikes. 

Christine: Ew. 

Em: And one source said that a paper bag jumped off of a shelf and then jumped all around the floor by itself. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Like just kept like scooting itself, I guess. 

Christine: A paper bag? That’s weird. 

Em: I don’t know. That feels weird. 

Christine: That feels like a cat got into it. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: You know how cats run around with paper bags on their heads? 

Em: Yeah. Just like charge at it out of nowhere. 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. 

Em: Um, anyway, there’s up to like seven or eight spirits in total at this house that we know of. And whether it has anything to do with the spirits (I already said this), but nobody has ever stayed at the Griggs Mansion for more than a few years. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So that adds to the spooky factor. And the Griggs Mansion is known to be one of the most haunted houses in Minnesota and the most haunted house in St. Paul. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: So– 

Christine: I wonder the people who live there like– or i-in town, I mean, um, if you guys have any insight. 

Em: Yeah, weigh in? [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, weigh in. I would love to hear if people have like visited or– Do they do tours or is it– Oh, it’s private residence you said. 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Christine: Okay. I’d be curious. 

Em: But maybe if you– If you, uh, maybe do a little sightseeing during the Christmas light stuff– 

Christine: Uh-huh, yeah. 

Em: –you bump some bows maybe– 

Christine: [laughs] Bump some bows. 

Em: I’m sure if you– I– We already missed our shot now, but there’s no way that they don’t expect people on Halloween to approach them and at least ask like, “What have you seen?” 

Christine: To be curious. For sure, for sure. 

Em: Yeah. Anyway, there you have it. 

Christine: Wow. Good story, Em. I like that one a lot. 

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Christine: [sighs] Okay. Um, very, very nice. Uh, I wonder if some day we’re gonna have stories of like McMansions that are super haunted and like– 

Em: I’m– Probably. 

Christine: –you know, grandiose for the, for the future times. 

Em: Well, you know what’s so weird is I feel like you don’t ever hear these days– you don’t hear yet at least about McMansions that are haunted even though back then it seems like only the mansions were haunted. And now it’s only the old tiny little creaky cottages that are haunted. 

Christine: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Em: And I don’t know why architecturally it has– the, the expectation has changed. 

Christine: I bet you someone’s written a dissertation about that. 

Em: I’m sure there’s someone. 

Christine: Right? 

Em: Yeah. Because yeah, you’re right that there are very few McMansions that have a story like this. But back then I– you never hear about like the small house. But then I wonder if it’s because like you weren’t a popular enough merchant– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –that no one cared about your haunted house. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I don’t know. Or maybe because a lot of the houses don’t s-stand anymore unless they’re an old Victorian landmark. 

Christine: That’s a good point. Or unless they had some like historic story that can kind of be pinned to the ghost like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –some famous backstory. Wow. Okay, that was good, Em. Um, I am going to tell you a story today that I have been, uh, planning on doing for, once again, like years. Um– 

Em: Mm! Okay. Christine, what are you gonna eat later today? 

Christine: Thank you for asking. Um, I don’t know yet, Em. 

Em: Do you have a craving? What are your cravings these days? 

Christine: [sighs] You know that Jimmy John’s we had was really good. 

Em: [groans in agreement] 

Christine: With the cucumber. 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: That was really damn good. Um– 

Em: Love me a JJ’s. 

Christine: I’m kind of feeling like some Indian. 

Em: Oh! Lovely. 

Christine: What are, what are you feeling like? 

Em: Oh, man, Christine. I don’t even know. I saw a r– It’s another one of those things where I don’t want to cook it. I just want it to appear. But I saw someone make a white sauce lasagna– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –which really got me going– 

Christine: That sounds– 

Em: –because I do not like a red sauce. The– My old– 

Christine: Was that like an Alfredo situation? Or like a cream sauce? 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was like a chicken Alfredo lasagna, and I was like, “Mamma mia!” Like we gotta get that cooking! 

Christine: My tummy hurts just thinking about it. [laughs] 

Em: Mm. I got– That next to– That and a slab of the steak that Maggie just sent us – are you kidding me? 

Christine: Oh, I was gonna say you’ve got that steak ready to go, yeah. Good job. Wow. You really– 

Em: I– But sometimes if, if I’m in a cooking mood in the future– Usually when I’m in a cooking mood it’s some sort of pasta thing, and I think that lasagna’s coming up next. 

Christine: I was gonna say. And I love like a baked pasta situation, you know. 

Em: [groans in agreement] 

Christine: So fucking good. 

Em: I will tell you I make the best mac and cheese, and it’s a baked mac and cheese. 

Christine: [groans] Oh, I lo– 

Em: The best. 

Christine: I don’t, I don’t– I only like baked mac and cheese these days. I’ve started upping my standards. I’m like– I just like baked mac and cheese. That’s my new thing. 

Em: The next time, um, I’m at your house, uh– 

Christine: Please. 

Em: –Leona and I will make you a baked mac and cheese. 

Christine: Please. 

Em: It’s very easy. It’s kid-friendly. So. 

Christine: Oh my god, she would love that. She loves mac and cheese. 

Em: Uh!

Christine’s Story – Jaycee Lee Dugard Part 1

Christine: Okay. So I have a story for you today that I’ve been hoping to do for years, many years. It’s a very famous one. I don’t know if you’ll have heard of it, but you may have heard of the name. This is the kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard.

Em: Nope. 

Christine: And, uh, Jaycee is spelled J-A-Y-C-E-E. 

Em: Okay. No, I haven’t heard it. 

Christine: Okay, so it’s a doozy. Jaycee Lee Dugard was born in California in 1980. And the reason I thought maybe, by the way, that you’d heard about it is because it was sort of our– 

Em: Age range? 

Christine: –era. Yeah, she’s like ten years older than us, um, and so it’s kind of similar a-age range. Her mother, Terry, was estranged from Jaycee’s biological father, so Jaycee spent her early childhood living alone with her mother, um, or occasionally with, uh, her, her mother’s family, Terry’s family. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And whenever Jaycee asked about her father, Terry would tell her that sadly he was not interested in being in her life. 

Em: Yikes. 

Christine: Which is just like how do you even have that conversation? That’s rough. Um, and he had actively chosen to not know his daughter, so she just had to learn that from a young age. 

Em: Dang. 

Christine: Yeah. But Jaycee did her best to understand her father’s absence, um, but, you know, of course it hurt to be out and about, especially like in the ‘80s, it’s like a less– Like I feel like just– It’s an earlier time. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Whatever that may mean. It’s an earlier time. So she’s seeing all these families with dads, and she’s feeling hurt and a little bit sad. When she’s seven, her mother marries a man named Carl – another Carl – Probyn. And unfortunately, Jaycee did not really get along well with her stepdad, which is a bummer ’cause it looked like she was really looking for that kind of father figure. 

Em: Yeah, that’s– That sucks. You finally get a dad, and it’s still not 10 out of 10. 

Christine: And he– And you know why? ’Cause he wasn’t really interested in getting to know her or like– 

Em: Damn, she can’t catch a break with these men. 

Christine: I– It’s just like not fair. Why would you not wanna get to know an interesting 11-year-old child? Like I bet that they’re full of stuff to know. Like I would love to just know an 11-year-old child and be like, “Tell me about yours–“ I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I just don’t understand people. People are so mean. Anyway, apparently he only ever got involved with her if he was criticizing her. That’s nice. Um, and she often felt like she could do nothing right in his eyes. For example, he said she ate like a slob. He would send her to the bathroom with her dinner so that she could eat in the front of the mirror and see how disgusting she was. 

Em: Holy shit. 

Christine: So this is– 

Em: Wow, you were, um, really burying the lead there on how terrible he is. [laughs in disbelief] Oh my god. 

Christine: It is– He’s– It very quickly becomes like a neglectful abusive situation. 

Em: Monster? Jesus fuck. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. He also imposed a household rule to brush teeth after every meal. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And if Jaycee forgot, she’d be grounded. Um, so she’s just in this like not happy situation. Once, Jaycee’s friend called to invite her to see a movie, and Carl answered the phone and accepted the invitation on Jaycee’s behalf without telling her. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And so when her f– 

Em: Like he was trying to kick her out of the house or something? 

Christine: Well, so her friend arrived with her dad to pick Jaycee up, and Jaycee was like, “What are you doing here?” And she asked Carl if she could go ’cause he was the one who said like, “Yeah, sure. Come over.” And he said, “Well, you didn’t brush your teeth a few hours ago, so actually no.” 

Em: Oh, so it was just to embarrass her. 

Christine: To like mortify her and make her feel ashamed– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –in front of her friend and her friend’s parents. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Wow, what a winner. So she of course started to cry. She offered to brush her teeth right away, but her stepfather was like, “No, this is your punishment.” God, it’s pissing me off. This is T-ing me right off. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] I’m so T-O-ed right now. You have no idea. 

Christine: I’m so freakin’ T-O-ed. So Jaycee’s friend left without her, and Jaycee just had to sit there at home alone and feel, feel just unloved. And so in 1990, Terry, uh, Jaycee’s mom, had another daughter named Shayna, and this became Jaycee’s baby sister. After a break-in at their apartment, the family moved to a small town called Meyers, just south of South Lake Tahoe, California. And Terry and Carl felt this would be a safer place to raise their daughters. Um, but of course, Carl was only interested in raising Shayna, his biological daughter. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: He was very indulgent and affectionate with the baby, which also I’m like even though he was like affectionate with her– I’m sorry, if you’re not like a good person, there’s not– no way you’re gonna be a good parent to this child either. You know what I mean? Like it seems like at the core, you’re a bad person. 

Em: I mean, I could see you being like 1% better because you’re 1% less cruel to your own blood if that’s how you– 

Christine: Well, it’s like you’re treating her better. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. Like you’re treating her better, but it still doesn’t– 

Em: But you’re still bad. [laughs] 

Christine: –make you a good parent ’cause you’re clearly at the core a bad parent. 

Em: Right, yeah. 

Christine: Um, and so– Anyway, of course this made Jaycee feel even more lonely ’cause now she’s watching this father figure who doesn’t care about her or who’s cruel to her be like affectionate with this baby. And she doesn’t even have her own father figure, you know. It’s just really hard. So if Carl didn’t see Jaycee as his daughter, she felt like completely out of place. Like who– Now that her mom had another baby, it’s like, “ Who– Where do I fit in?” You know? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And it was Carl one day who insisted, “You know what? You’re old enough to walk to school, uh, walk to the bus stop.” And so from then on, she was responsible for her own mornings, getting ready for school. By the way, she’s 11. Okay? She’s like 10, 11. And he’s like, “You’re, you’re old enough.” Like basically, you’re a merchant now. 

Em: Well, you know, 14-year-olds were– Yeah. 

[laughs] 

Em: We had the same joke. 

Christine: “Basically, we’re sending you off to Minneapolis for St. Paul for business school. Bye.” 

Em: It’s like– [laughs] “You can be in charge of the lumber and the coal and the grocer–“ 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “–and you can go to business school in Detroit, yeah.” 

Christine: But you cannot go to the movies with your friend. 

Em: No, heav– 

Christine: ’Cause you didn’t brush your teeth. 

Em: And also you didn’t brush your teeth. 

Christine: [laughs] That’s so sad. Uh, oh boy. Oh boy. It’s a little bit, um, little bit, little bit triggering for me. I’ll just leave it at that. Okay, so. Terry, uh, would leave for work early because, um, that– her jo– her hours were just early in the morning. And that was before Jaycee would even wake up, and Carl would do his own thing and kinda just let Jaycee be responsible for herself. So it was business as usual. It’s June 10, 1991, which by the way– How are you not out of school yet on June 10? That feels a little bit late, but whatever. June 10, 1991 – when 11-year-old Jaycee got herself out of bed, got dressed, and she felt a little nauseated, a little sick to her stomach that morning. But she knew better than to ask Carl for permission to stay home from school. Um, sounds like he was not gonna be the most empathetic person to talk to. 

Em: No. He’s probably just gonna embarrass her again. 

Christine: He was probably gonna drive her there and like announce to everybody that she had diarrhea or something. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like it sounds like he just wants to shame the shit out of her in front of all her friends. And she definitely didn’t want to spend the day at home with him, right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So it’s like– Argh, she didn’t really have much of a choice. So she ignored her feeling, her like sick to the stomach feeling, um. And it was almost summer break, so she was like, “You know what? We’re nearing the end. I’ll get through this.” And that summer, she and her best friend had made plans to work with horses at a ranch, and she was trying to think of a way to get her par-parents on board to like approve of this plan. Um, but she was also a very shy child. She struggled to kinda make connections with other kids, make connections with new friends. And when her family moved, Terry had signed her up for Girl Scouts, and Jaycee really struggled with this – as did I. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, she did not feel comfortable selling cookies door-to-door, um, and so she would just kind of pair up with another girl who did all the talking. But in her own way, Jaycee could also be very determined. Um, if she really cared about something, she could absolutely dig her heels in when it mattered, and to the point that her mom, Terry, actually called her “The Bull” because she could be so stubborn. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: If she really wanted to work at a ranch that summer, she just needed to like find a way to pitch this to her parents. So she was thinking about this. She was planning how on earth she was gonna approach this and try to convince them. Um, there was also this upcoming class trip to a water park, which she was very excited about, so– 

Em: Damn, two things to pitch at once. 

Christine: Man, she’s like, “I better play my cards right.” 

Em: “I better brush my teeth backwards and front.” 

Christine: [laughs] “I better brush my goddamn teeth.” Jaycee made breakfast. She packed her own school lunch as usual. She looked into the nursery to check on her little sister who was still asleep, which is so sweet. And Jaycee loved Shayna, um, but she shut the door quietly to avoid waking the baby up, let her be, let her sleep. And she left the house and made her way alone to the nearby school bus stop, um, along the route Carl designated, by the way, because, uh, he– 

Em: Of course. 

Christine: –he, he had to designate a, a path because, of course, “You’re responsible. You can figure your own way, but you have to do it the way that I say.” It’s like– Okay. 

Em: Oh my god. Pick a struggle, dude. Like I– 

Christine: Pick a fucking lane. I know. It’s outrageous. 

Em: T-ing me right off. 

Christine: T-ing me right off. [laughs] And so he had designated this specific– Sorry, my mother just texted me. “Went potty!” Okay. That– This is like my whole texting chain. 

Em: [laughs] [applause] 

Christine: Everybody in the world is telling me these things nowadays, and it’s great news. Um, so she left the house, made her away alone to the nearby bus stop along the route that Carl designated because, to be fair, the route was easier for drivers to see her, so, you know, she’d be more visible to drivers. 

Em: Okay, so maybe there was a real reason there. 

Christine: There was some concern there at least. So Jaycee used to be afraid of walking on her own, which makes it extra harsh that her stepdad was like, “You’re old enough. Do it by yourself.” 

Em: “Figure it out.” 

Christine: And she’s like, “I’m afraid.” Yeah, like, you know, most kids are like, “Please let me go walk down the street to my friend’s house,” and she’s like, “I don’t want to go alone.” And he’s like, “You have to.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So before they had moved, um, apparently, m– she had had the experience of men harassing her from a car while she walked places, which like who hasn’t? [sarcastically] Ha-ha. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, like what child hasn’t? 

Em: Wish, wish I could say that that’s not normal. 

Christine: Not normal, right. I know. So she’d had that experience, and she was– And they had even called her over, and she had to hide in a bush until she left– until they left. 

Em: [sighs] Eugh. 

Christine: And she was so terrified. I mean, at this point, she’s 11, and this was a couple years ago, so like she was really little, and she was really scared. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So after that, her parents sometimes picked her up from school, but Jaycee, in the new town, felt a lot safer. Um, she could ride her bicycle wherever she wanted. She had friends nearby that she could play with, um, without any concern. There was– This is really, really sweet. A neighborhood dog sometimes escorted her up the hill like would just walk with her. 

Em: [soft gasp] Damn, even the dog’s better than your fucking parents. Oh my god. 

Christine: I know, right? I know. 

Em: Well, that’s also because they are working with seven-year-olds all the time hunting and whatever they’re doing. [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, right, right, right. They have a working relationship already. I’m sure. 

Em: But that is precious that even the dog could sense like– 

Christine: I know! She needs a companion, you know? 

Em: –fear and– Yeah. 

Christine: Or loneliness. And so he– the dog would occasionally escort her up the hill to the bus stop, and, of course , that made her more confident. This morning, however, he was not there. So Carl was outside when Jaycee left. It seemed like an unremarkable day, but when he glanced up the street to watch as she like approached at the bus stop– And to be fair again, he can see the bus stop, so it’s like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –at least he knows– he can say like, “Okay, she got on the bus.” 

Em: Right. 

Christine: I mean, part of me thinks maybe that was just to make sure she’s not like skipping school, but whatever. I don’t know. 

Em: I totally agree with you. 

Christine: Right? It’s kinda like double-sided. Um, but when he glanced up the street to watch her make it to the bus stop, he saw a vehicle slow down alongside Jaycee. She didn’t notice the vehicle until it had already stopped next to her, and a man rolled down the window to ask for directions. But before Jaycee could even speak, the man reached out the window and struck Jaycee with a stun gun. 

Em: Holy shit! 

Christine: She just collapsed. Her whole body just shut down. She collapsed. She tried to scoot into the bushes behind her, which is like what she did the last time she was hiding from those people. 

Em: Was the dog with her this time? Like did the dog try to fight them off? 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Dog did not come this time. But she was completely disoriented. Um, she felt like her arms– you know, her arms just went completely numb and disoriented out of her control. She, she like reached around. She could only feel like pinecones. Like there was just nothing that she could do to save herself. She heard two strangers’ voices. She was lifted into the vehicle and covered up with a thick blanket. And Carl, meanwhile, he didn’t see the stun gun, but he heard Jaycee scream, and he watched as she was dragged into the vehicle, kicking and screaming. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: So he jumped on a bicycle and gave chase uphill. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: And the abductors quickly sped out of sight, so Carl like h– just missed them. He rode back down to the house, shouting at his neighbors to call 911. And on the scene, Carl told the police that two people abducted Jaycee: a man and a woman. And he had seen both of these people in the car, so he was able to give an exact description of the vehicle’s year, color, make, and model. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Several witnesses also saw this because there were several classmates waiting for the bus. 

Em: Oh, shit! 

Christine: So this is like– This has like an audience this whole thing. 

Em: Wow. I didn’t think about other children at the bus stop. 

Christine: Right? 

Em: I thought it was just her, so this feels like a t– 

Christine: It f– ’Cause it feels r– 

Em: –like a premeditated– like a targeted thing. 

Christine: I don’t know. It just is– It’s just so shocking. Like broad daylight, you know? I feel like these things don’t usually happen like this. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: But yeah, so basically all these classmates saw it. They saw Jaycee getting dragged away. They saw the people taking her. But of course like because it’s still dar– like relatively dark. It’s early morning, and it’s chaotic. And no one really knows what’s going on, so nobody catches the license plate. And of course, a bunch of kids, you know, you can’t expect them to like know what to do. So– 

Em: Mm-hmm. It’s moments like that where you want an asshole stepdad because he would know the make, model, and color of a car. 

Christine: Literally on the phone– You can hear the 911 call, and he’s like, “It’s a gray Honda, model whatever.” Like you can hear it. Like because he clearly knew right away, which is like okay, thank you for paying attention one time. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, yeah. So it’s just– And this is the ‘90s, you know. So all that 911 existed, all this– So we, we still have recordings of the calls, that kind of thing. Um, in any case, the crime triggered an immediate major search effort to recover Jaycee, whose daytime abduction in front of multiple witnesses was obviously shocking to the whole community. The FBI got involved in boots-on-the-ground investigative efforts. They set up traffic stops because they were looking at vehicles that matched the description to see if like there was anything in the trunk. Volunteers helped Terry, uh, the mom, hang missing posters for Jaycee all over town. They sent tens of thousands to businesses all over the country, um, to make sure, you know, Jaycee’s face was everywhere, even outside of state lines in case they took her out of the state. And they were hoping maybe somebody would notice her somewhere far away and the FBI would, you know, know how to bring her back to them. So meanwhile, Jaycee’s classmates began wearing T-shirts printed with Jaycee’s photo and information. They tied pink ribbons to fences in town, which, uh, matche– w-which matched a pink ribbon that Terry had tied to a tree near her own home. Um, and it was pink because that was Jaycee’s favorite color, and, of course, this– the ribbons were, you know, the classic symbol for wishing for a safe return. This case was, uh, featured on America’s Most Wanted– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –and after that, hundreds of tips came in after the episode aired, but unfortunately, of course, they were all dead ends. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So Carl and Terry made numerous media appearances, imploring the public to come forward with any information that might lead to Jaycee’s location. Jaycee’s biological father – you remember, the one who wanted nothing to do with her– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –uh, Ken Slayton, and her stepdad, Carl, were early suspects. Good, ’cause you gotta check them out. 

Em: Of course. 

Christine: Yeah. Um, it was considered they may have, for some reason, arranged the abduction? Like together. Like they wanted to get rid of her. 

Em: Like they were in cahoots? 

Christine: Yeah, that was like the angle that the investigators took at first, but they quickly determined that these two men had never even met or s– nor spoken. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So it was like a dead e– That was a dead end. They also both passed polygraph tests, and Ken was ruled out as a suspect. Carl, on the other hand, remained under serious scrutiny, especially because he was like the one who called 911 and he had a kind of a rocky relationship with her. So he kind of stayed on the radar for a little bit longer. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Photojournalist Ivor Markman responded to the abduction scene just after the crime took place. And he actually really closely followed the case and documented it in tons of photos, which wasn’t necessarily like normal for that time period. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: And they– You can look at these photos now, which is really cool, and it shows Terry and Carl in– ’Cause now, I mean, cops are wearing like, uh, body cams, so like you get the whole scene as being videotaped. But– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Or– “videotaped,” you know what I mean. The new technology tape cassettes. 

Em: Yes. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] And if you look at this photographer’s– this photojournalist's work, it shows Terry and Carl in black-and-white speaking to reporters, leading community search efforts. There’s like this whole kind of photojournalistic, uh, kind of history to this as well. So in one photo that this journalist took Terry is hugging Jaycee’s best friend. So it’s, um, just really sweet. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: It’s like the mom and Jaycee’s best friend like holding each other, and they’re just very powerful, very moving photos. And, uh, Ivor later recalled an officer suggesting that perhaps Carl had made sexual advances towards his stepdaughter and then murdered her when she threatened to tell Terry. So this journalist– 

Em: Well– 

Christine: –is just there for photos, and he’s like picking up some wild scoops and rumors and– Yeah. 

Em: Well, up until you said that the, the whole event was like– had an audience because other children were there, I was like, “This is so easy for this guy to be saying, ‘I can see it from the window what’s happening.’” 

Christine: 100%. 100%. 

Em: And then– So thank you for adding that ’cause otherwise in my mind right now, I'd be like, “It was obviously him.” 

Christine: Well, and Em, even then they were– Even though there was this group, they were saying like maybe he hired someone. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Like they still thought he could be responsible. So like you definitely have the same gut instinct. 

Em: Right, but, but I feel like if he wanted to hire someone, he would have very– he would have just not looked out the window that day and just like assumed he wasn’t there, you know. 

Christine: Good point. ‘Cause somebody else would have witnessed– Yeah, that’s true, ’cause if there were already witnesses there, he wouldn’t have needed to, to be the one to call 911. That’s true. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Yeah. So– And like why would you hire two people? Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But point is, um, they were thinking like maybe like Carl had made some sexual advances. It– Obviously, that was an extreme allegation, and they had no evidence of this whatsoever. Um, and the– these kind of rumors like are very dangerous to just be saying aloud– 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: –in front of like people who aren’t involved or aren’t law enforcement. Like it just feels like why would you be saying that loud enough for the photojournalist to hear, but whatever. Um, and this, among police and the public like scrutiny, slowly got to Carl and his marriage as well. Um, he and Terry really struggled to support each other, even though so far they’d had like a pretty solid marriage [scoffs] despite like leaving Jaycee out of it. Um, they did eventually separate, and each year following the abduction, Terry– It’s just so sad. Every May, she became just inconsolable because June 10th was the day of the abduction, so she– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It was like the second May started, she felt like the dread and panic every single year. And, um, Carl just was not equipped to process that with her. And you know, once they separated, she was kind of, um, having to do that on her own. And Carl actually later said in an interview, “It wasn’t between us. We’ve never had a fight. We’re best of friends right now. Just losing Jaycee… changed [Terry’s] life.” Like it– There was just no more, I guess, room for their marriage anymore. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And honestly– Listen, I don’t know that this is true, but I imagine being the mom, there must be some guilt of like seeing your husband treating her this way and– 

Em: Oh, I’m sure. 

Christine: –seeing, seeing him treat the baby so much more nicely. And like they’re– I mean, I th–, I would think you’d have noticed that as the mom, right? And so like– 

Em: I would hope so, but also maybe like you just like don’t wanna see it, and so you never did. 

Christine: Yeah, maybe you never did, but– 

Em: But I could see you reflecting on every moment last– 

Christine: Right? 

Em: –you had with your kid. 

Christine: It must be like at least coming back a little bit or subconsciously or something. Like, “Oh, we did not treat her right.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But yeah. In any case, I’m not blaming her at all. I’m just saying– I’m, I’m wondering if that’s where her head was at as well. 

Em: I would spiral for sure. So– 

Christine: Yeah, it would be incredibly, incredibly difficult. Um, so that’s what happened between the two of them. And Carl basically said he allowed himself a really, really, really small, if implausible, comfort, and that was the hope that somehow Jaycee was kidnapped by a loving couple who simply wanted a daughter of their own. And I think that a lot of parents who are going through this have – at least from what I’ve seen – have kind of told themselves that that’s possible because it’s like the last shred of hope. 

Em: Just to justify the, the least scary thing that could happen. 

Christine: Exactly. Exactly. Just to have some hope that like maybe she’s okay. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like, you know, not even just alive, but maybe like happy and healthy, you know. 

Em: Maybe she’s being loved. [makes questioning sound] 

Christine: Taken care of. Yes, exactly. And, um, that, that was obviously a very unlikely possibility, and stranger abductions, um, are very rare and considered more dangerous than abduction by family members or friends. They are more likely to end badly. Still, Carl dared to hope that maybe she was alive somewhere in the world and maybe even doing well. And meanwhile, Terry continued to keep the case alive, um, in the search efforts for her daughter. She organized a group to oversee events in Jaycee’s name, which would keep hope alive for Jaycee’s return. Um, it would like pretty continuously trigger new media interest in the case, so they were very intentional about that. And in the years following the abduction, they held everything from candlelight vigils to music benefits, marches just to fundraise and keep Jaycee’s stories on people’s mind. 

So Jaycee’s family, meanwhile, canvassed through multiple states. Volunteers continued to pass out hundreds of thousands of flyers. And the public was very much aware of Jaycee’s disappearance, but nobody had answers. So time after time, new tips and leads would come, would come in, um, but investigators just got nowhere with them. Although Carl gave a perfect description of the vehicle – finally, the stepdad is good for something. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: He, like you said, recognized the make and model of the Honda or whatever it was. [laughs] 

Em: I’m telling you the only way better is if he had to like identity a train, you know. It would’ve– 

Christine: I– Imagine. Imagine. Or like a type of– a boat or something. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, so he, you know, gave a perfect description. Good for you. Clapping for you, Carl. Um, and actually a tip came in describing that same exact vehicle with a young girl sleeping in the backseat. They were just not able to find the car. So they’re like– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: They think that there are some leads out there. They’re just not able to kind of solidify anything. There was, of course, some doubt cast on Carl’s account as usual. Um, even if he wasn’t involved in Jaycee’s disappearance, like maybe he was just not as good of a car stepdad as he thought. Maybe he’d misidentified the vehicle, and then that would’ve meant they were wasting their time, you know, chasing down this one exact make and model. Maybe he even misidentified the abductors. Maybe it was two men, not a man and a woman. Like they were just thinking, “Oh god, how are we even supposed to begin figuring out, like, unraveling this?” Some people said it was bizarre that Carl had jumped on a bike to try and chase the vehicle. But I also feel like that would be your gut, right? Like– 

Em: I mean, I don’t know like if, if you didn’t have a car and you needed to get there, I mean, I would c– 

Christine: Like– 

Em: I would panic and pick the thing closest to me. 

Christine: Well, people were saying he should have stayed and called 911, but like you’re, you’re– 

Em: No, I would have, I would have panicked and ran. 

Christine: Your gut is to– I think your gut would– My gut would be to chase after even if it’s not logical. 

Em: I mean, if you saw someone like stun gun Leona, wouldn’t you run towards her? 

Christine: And– Towards it, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like– And I know, I know rationally somewhere maybe in my mind, I’d be like– But he was screaming to the neighbors, “Call 911!”, you know. So like I just don’t think it’s that outrageous. 

Em: I– NO, I would’ve done the same thing. 

Christine: And also he could’ve been able to spot the license plate if he got close enough or something, you know. I mean, I don’t think it’s fair to say like that was an unreasonable or sketchy thing to do. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Um, but people claim that that was suspicious. And I just feel like this was all like muddying the case, you know, because, uh, spoiler alert, Carl had nothing to do with it at the end of the day. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So it’s like– Yeah, it’s like this is just muddying the waters. Even though Carl was a shitty guy, right? And a shitty stepdad, um– 

Em: You can be a shitty guy and not a killer. 

Christine: Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So Carl remained very adamant about what he had seen. He’s like, “One thing I can do for my stepdaughter is fucking identify the make and model of this car. Please do not doubt me. Like I know what I saw.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. [laughs] 

Christine: And his account never wavered. So he really held onto this. 

Em: He should have just gi– like shown his stepdad license and been like, “I know the–“ 

Christine: I know, right? It’s like– 

Em: “I can identify the car.” 

Christine: Exactly. Of all people, don’t question a stepdad. So when cases involving the abductions and murders of other girls Jaycee’s age were solved, people would start questioning like, “oh, maybe, maybe the killers had also killed Jaycee. And maybe now we’ll get some answers, and they’ll, uh, confess to what they did, and the family will get closure.” But that just didn’t happen. So Terry was haunted by her last interaction with Jaycee as well, um, which I think added, of course, to her turmoil. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Jaycee had asked her mom to wake her up the next morning, uh, before she left for work. So I mean, “morning” – more like middle of the night. Jaycee had asked her mom to, to wake her up and give her a hug and kiss goodbye before leaving for work. And Jaycee made her mom promise not to forget. I’m gonna cry. [sad chuckle] This is so bad. 

Em: What? 

Christine: She made her mom promise not to forget, but the next morning, Terry was running late and decided she didn’t have time, so she didn’t go and wake her up and give her a kiss and say goodbye. 

Em: So that’s what you meant earlier about like thinking back on all the– like the “what ifs” or whatever? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Em: Like– ’Cause I would have also i– When you’re mid-spiral, of course you’re gonna think about the last interaction you had and all the things you did wrong and– 

Christine: Exactly. And to think like she said, “Wake me up. Give me a hug and kiss goodbye.” And you’re like, “I don’t have time,” and then you never see her again. You know, think about that. Like that would be just absolutely heartrending. But then also my OCD gets involved and is like well, now every time I don’t have time to kiss my daughter goodbye, I’m gonna be like, “Is something terrible gonna happen?” You know? 

Em: Oh, every time I hug my mom goodbye I think, “Did I hug her hard enough just in case?” 

Christine: “Could this be the last time?” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. You just– It, it– That– If, if that’s an OCD feature, lock me up, you know. [laughs] 

Christine: I will. Come to my prison. I have– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s well– 

Em: It’s called my mind. [laughs] 

Christine: It’s called my mind and my house, and it’s well-stocked, so don’t worry. Uh, there’s room for plenty of us. Okay. Maybe we could just move into that fucking 24 room McMansion. Um– 

Em: It– Honestly, if prison is a 24 room Victorian mansion up on a hill of a row of perfectly, uh, kept– preserved Victorian mansions, lock me up. 

Christine: I’m in. [laughs] Lock me up – again. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, okay. Let’s see. So Jaycee had asked her mom to wake her. She said, “I don’t have time,” and didn’t do it. And then the next morning is when she was abducted. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So she had pro– broken her promise and left without saying goodbye to Jaycee, and now she may never have the chance. When she needed to talk to her daughter, Terry would sit outside and speak to the moon. And just– 

Em: God, that’s so sad. 

Christine: I know. And– 

Em: Little orphan Annie. Oh my god. 

Christine: I know. And hearing her talk about it– She and Jaycee used to sit out at– and look at the moon together. That was just something they did regularly, and they would– 

Em: Oh god. 

Christine: I know. So the way they described it was like they would argue or compare or debate, I guess, the qualities of the different moons. And so they would debate like if the crescent moon was better or the full moon was better. And, uh, Jaycee always said the full moon, and her mom always said the crescent moon. And so they just had this kind of like playful banter about it. And so, anyway, her mom would sit outside, uh, when she was feeling like connecting with her daughter and would just talk to the moon and wish that she was there. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: It’s just so sad. 

Em: That’s like a– like right out of like a Disney movie or something or– I mean– 

Christine: I know. F– 

Em: I know that’s like i-in the worst way possible, but it’s just like so h-heartbreaking. 

Christine: It feels so heartbreaking, like out of a movie or something. Yeah. 

Em: An, an old Disney movie where everything was always miserable, and you just always cried, yeah. 

Christine: Right, where everybody– everything was just racist, misogynous, and also like so inappropriate for children ’cause it was traumatizing. 

Em: You get it, yeah. [sad chuckle] 

Christine: Like Dumbo. [sad chuckle] Anyway, um, yeah, so that, that’s kind of what, um, what she would do to cope. But what she couldn’t know, uh, and didn’t know is that over 150 miles away in Antioch, California, Jaycee was alive– 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: –and was also looking up at the moon, talking to her mom. 

Em: So it was a Disney movie all along. Are you kidding me? 

Christine: It sure, sure fucking was. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: It would be 18 years before they would see each other again. And Jaycee would have to survive the unthinkable to make it home to her family. 

Em: Oh, fuck. 

Christine: And that is the end of part one. 

Em: Fuck you with these parts ones and twos. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I hate this. 

Christine: I’m sorry. This one’s just such a big case. Like there was– It was going to be four more hours to get to the rest. 

Em: Oh my god, Christine. 

Christine: But like Saoirse, very, very good on the, uh, pl– on the, on the cliffhanger. Thank you. 

Em: [applause] 

Christine: I love a cliffhanger. 

Em: Okay, well, she’s alive. Okay. 

Christine: Well, I love a cliffhanger when I get to say the cliffhanger, not when anyone else does. [laughs] 

Em: Right. [laughs] Okay. Well, dang. Good job. Uh, okay. Well, now I gotta wait all week. 

Christine: I know. Except we’re recording tomorrow, so. 

Em: Well, you have to wait all week, everyone. 

Christine: Everyone else has to “wake” all week– [laughs] wait all week. You get to know tomorrow. 

Em: Um, what are you doing until tomorrow when I get to hear the rest of it? 

Christine: [sighs] Great question. I think that nap really zapped me of like my sense of reality. 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: So everything– You know when you sleep and like time feels warped ’cause you’re like, “Wait, it’s afternoon now, not morning”? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: I feel like I’m kind of lost as to like what I’m supposed to be doing today. But I think I might– Em, this is, this is kind of shocking, so sit down, everyone. I think I might– 

Em: I’m buckled. Hang on. 

Christine: –just like read or hang out or like– No, I probably won’t. My therapist told me I have to do that. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: My therapist told me I have to spend more just not doing stuff. Just like sitting or watching a show or being on TikTok. 

Em: Couch rot? Like I told you last time? 

Christine: You did tell me that. 

Em: And can you confirm for the a-audience that last time I told you you should bed rot/couch rot, it worked? 

Christine: Oh my god, you’re right. I did. I texted you after that. You’re 100% right. 

Em: You texted me a thank you. 

Christine: It was– I did text you a thank you. I forgot about that. That was so– It was like a balm to my soul. Really. 

Em: A balm? [laughs] Okay. 

Christine: [laughs] Just like this nap was. I think I’m trying to fix myself slowly but surely. So what I might do today, Em, is I might draw some new stickers for my little shop, you know? 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: ’Cause I’ve been drawing more on my iPad and just like watch, watch a show or something. Watch Grace and Frankie. 

Em: You know what people would get a kick out of? If you let Leona draw something. 

Christine: [gasps] Okay, that would be funny. Ah, that would be very funny. 

Em: Now, that’s funny. 

Christine: And you got her some great gifts when we were in, um, Austin. 

Em: Oh, yeah. Did she open them? 

Christine: She– Uh, I, I have multiple videos to send you. Um, she lost her mind. And the Pete the Cat one we spent about 45 minutes last night delaying bedtime ’cause she wanted to keep doing it. 

Em: Yes! 

Christine: Um, yeah, you’ve really, uh, you’ve really changed the game. 

Em: Yeah, I got– We went to– When we had a book signing, we went to the bookstore afterwards to go shopping for ourselves, and I got Leona a Pete the Cat activity book. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: I got her a Spidey activity book. I got her a– 

Christine: Okay, the Spidey one is like a proj– movie projector onto your wall. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And so she was like, “It’s Gobby!” Like “It’s, it’s Ghost-Spider!” You know? Green Goblin is named Gobby in the show. 

Em: That’s so sweet. 

Christine: And so they’re like– It’s ve– 

Em: I got her two others. I don’t remember what the books were. Was it Frozen? 

Christine: You got her a Frozen gel pen, and she doesn’t understand the pens ’cause they’re not like– She holds them like this [holds up her fist as if holding a pen with it] and she’s like, “These don’t work.” And I’m like– 

Em: They were all activity books that came with a thing to use in the activity book– 

Christine: Right, stickers or– 

Em: And then what was the, what was the fourth one? 

Christine: [sighs, thinking] 

Em: [thinking out loud] Pete the Cat. It really doesn’t matter. I was just curious. Am I okay? What the hell did I get her? 

Christine: I mean, I just opened it. 

Em: What else does she like? 

Christine: I thought it was those three and then– 

Em: What was the characters? 

Christine: A s– Oh, Eva’s right. Eva fucking knows, of course. It was the Paw Patrol sticker book– puzzle book. 

Em: Oh, thank you, Eva. 

Christine: And by the way, Em – thank you, Eva – I need you to understand, Em, she’s done almost every puzzle. There’s like 40 of them in there. She’s done like almost all of them already. 

Em: Are you serious? 

Christine: I had to go on Amazon and google– 

Em: I literally just got it for her like yesterday. [laughs] 

Christine: I know. And– No, literally. As we’re recording this, it’s like 48 hours ago. I– She almost did the whole book. I have to– I went on Amazon ’cause we’re going to Thanksgiving in Connecticut, and I’m like, “I need activity stuff for her.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, so I went and bought a bunch of just like sticker puzzle– It’s like color by sticker sort of– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –is what they’re called, I think. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And it has like an A and– 

Em: I saw– They have them at Target too, homie. 

Christine: Okay, great ’cause I– 

Em: In case you need one. 

Christine: This is apparently her new passion in life. 

Em: No, I literally after the election, which– Heh. Okay, hello. Now we all know what happens at the end of the election. 

Christine: I know. Remember when we were being so coy? 

Em: Um, I– Ins– I got to Dallas early to like go like enjoy Dallas, and then I was so bummed that I just went to Target and bought like a bunch of coloring and sensory activities. 

Christine: Oh, ’cause you were– Yeah, ’cause you were at the– sorry, in Dallas for the election. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Yeah, and, um, I– That’s where I found out about color by sticker, which I also did– 

Christine: I do love those. 

Em: –and it is a– quite a blast. 

Christine: And I have, I have those like grownup ones that I’ve done for years, and it never occurred to me they had kids’ ones. And I was like, “Oh, wow.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: She loves it. Um, anyway, sorry. I forget why I was ranting about that, but basically I think I’m just gonna chill and color and draw and– Um, well because today– Wednesdays are Oma’s days, so she’s not even gonna be home ’til like 8 p.m. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: It’s– That’s unheard of. 

Em: Well, if you ever need someone to babysit, I’m right here. I’m right on the phone. I don’t know what to tell you. 

Christine: Please. I’ll just put her in the room with you on FaceTime. 

Em: Yeah. Great. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink.

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