E407 A Seance Arsonist and Ghosts with Gall

TOPICS: THE CAHILL MANSION/THE GREGORY HOUSE, JAYCEE LEE DUGARD PT. 2

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It’s Episode 407 and we’re just skeletons trying our best. This week Em takes us to Mississippi for the wild hauntings of the Cahill Mansion/the Gregory House, which is said to be “a house that has more issues than Vogue”. Then Christine covers the upsetting Part 2 of the Jaycee Lee Dugard kidnapping that just makes us need to say that women are SO strong. And look out for our humorous humerus jokes this week …and that’s why we drink!

Photos:
The Cahill Mansion
Young Jaycee Dugard
Jaycee Dugard for People Magazine in 2016. Photo: Jeff Lipsky

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Transcript

[intro music]

Em: [scatting] W-w-w– Ooh-ooh-uh– Uh, uh-uh-uh– 

Christine: [starts beatboxing] 

Em: [rapping] ♪ Welcome to what really grinds my gears. ♪ 

Christine: [rapping] ♪ I’m T-ed off. I’m so T-ed off. I’m T-ed off. I’m so T-ed off. ♪♪ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [speaking] Welcome to And That’s Why We Drink. This is why we are T-ed off this week and why we drink. And guess what, Em? We’re recording at 3 p.m. eastern, so I’m having a glass of wine. 

Em: Oh, thank god. I– If I could, I– 

Christine: And look at this. Look at this merch we’ve got. Look at this little shiny guy. [holds up black mug with a golden skeleton sitting cross-legged and meditating with the And That’s Why We Drink logo arching over its head] 

Em: She’s a beaut. That’s what you look like most of the time. 

Christine: [laughs] Like what? Like I’m doing yoga and can actually sit cross-legged like that? Thank you. 

Em: Just, just a bag of bones trying to relax. 

Christine: Just a skeleton trying her best, um. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Anyway, yeah, so I’m drinking some white wine today, ’cause it was in my little mini fridge up here for emergencies. 

Em: Weird. You don’t have any red in your house? 

Christine: Oh, I– [laughs] Don’t be ridiculous. 

Em: You just don’t like stairs. I see. 

Christine: I certai– Who does, first of all? Second of all, it’s an emergency wine. I had to use it today. 

Em: I don’t think I’ve ever seen you with white wine except in your bra, your wine bra. 

Christine: That was cold. 

Em: [laughs] I know. 

Christine: That– I will say that was a one-time mistake, and I, I don’t recommend it. 

Em: Well, what– Is it a pinot grig? 

Christine: I don’t know. It’s whatever the venue gave us that I stowed away in my backpa– er, my suitcase and brought home with me. 

Em: Mm. There’s nothing I love more than the smell of a pinot grig. 

Christine: That’s why I– Really? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: [smells the wine] It is definitely pinot grig. Um– 

Em: Mm! 

Christine: I will– I don’t know anything about wine, as everybody already knows, even after seven years of this. But, uh, I, I like to take– Sometimes the venues will give us like t– different things to try, and then I will just– If we don’t– Actually, this time I put the cork in and put it in my suitcase, which was probably the dumbest thing I’ve ever done in my whole life. 

Em: You’ve done it before, and the whole thing shattered one time, and then red wine was all over everything in your bag. Do you remember that? 

Christine: No. Oh, that was in my Louis Vuitton though. 

[laughs] 

Christine: No, that was back when I had that giant turtle thing. 

Em: The turtle. 

Christine: And I like would throw bottles of half corked wine like the trashiest person in the world, and th-they would just like slosh everywhere. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And my mom was like, “Well, you– That nice bag lasted you like a week.” Um– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Anyway, yeah, that wine-stained bag is somewhere in this house. But no, now I have, uh, the proper accoutrement. I bought like little bags that you can put the wine in that if they leak, it’ll like absorb all the liquid. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Um, but anyway, so they, they gave us this nice wine, and like I don’t ever buy wine more than like $4.99, so, um, I thought I’d give it a, give it a whirl today. 

Em: Mm! 

Christine: Yeah, but– So– Oh, can I tell you why I drink real quick? As I’m telling you what I’m drinking? 

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Okay, so I just went on to my Gmail to check my 86,000 unread messages, and I saw like our neighborhood forum had like a post. And I was like, “I wonder if anyone’s updated on the skeleton?” This b– Talk about a bag of bones. This guy’s being spread all over the neighborhood. It’s becoming like a scavenger hunt. People have found different bones, like different pieces of him. 

Em: Have you written in and said like, “Just so everyone knows, this was my skeleton.” Like, “the origin begins here.” 

Christine: No, I started the thread. I started the thread saying, “Have you seen my legs?” 

Em: Oh, oh, oh. Right, right, right. 

Christine: And then all of a sudden, it’s like, “I found a tibia.” Like, “I found, I found the skull.” And I’m like, “Oh my god. So now somebody lo– took the torso.” It’s just– It’s– Somebody said, “I found this bone in my yard.” I’m like, “Okay, first of all, maybe call the police before you call me, but it’s fine. I’m sure it’s just plastic.” 

Em: Just strewn about. 

Christine: Just strewn about. So I don’t know what is going on. I don’t know how to stop this train that I’ve started. It’s just everybody’s now like chiming in what they found on the side of the road, um, and this poor skeleton is really going places. 

Em: If this were Toy Story, he’d be screaming. He’d be– 

Christine: It’s horrible. Oh, don’t traumatize the children. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: He’s fine. He’s already dead. 

Em: Um, what, uh– Is there any other reason why you drink today? 

Christine: Oh, is that not enough? Um, hm. Let me think. Let me think. Just that, you know, I talked about my witchiness on our Yappy Hour, by the way, everybody, and, uh, I feel like I'm very excited ’cause I’m gonna pick up some mugwort today and finally finish my little mugwort pillow. Um, not to give you a, a little spoiler-teaser, but, um, on our Yappy Hour, we talked about my new foray into witchcraft, and, um, Em’s– 

Em: Specifically mugwort. 

Christine: Specifically mugwort was the entryway dr– the gateway drug, if you will. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, and so you know, I’m just kind of like vibing today. Uh, I got my white wine. I feel funny. I feel weird. 

Em: Oh! Why? 

Christine: Just detached. Just dissociated. Just up there, floating around, and I really gotta be be– get better about that. But it’s just hard. So, Emothy, that is why I drink. Why do you drink this week, my friend? 

Em: Ugh. Well, I– 

Christine: What? [laughs] Em: [laughs] Uh, I was drinking because we– 

Christine: Is your tibia also spread all around the neighborhood? 

Em: And I ain’t “fibia” in. Okay, that was stupid. So– 

Christine: Just cut that too please, Jack. 

Em: Sorry, that wasn’t very “humerus.” [“humorous”] Um– 

Christine: Okay, we’re back. [snapping] We’re back. We’re, we’re back. 

Em: Sometimes it just takes a second. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Uh, let’s see. Well, yesterday, I burnt the absolute shit out of my hands. 

Christine: [gasps] No! 

Em: Um, ’cause I just straight up grabbed a hot pan from the oven. I forgot– 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: –forgot the glove. 

Christine: We’ve all done that. 

Em: Um, but it was– Every one of my fingers got attacked in some way. [laughs] 

Christine: Can I see? Can I see? 

Em: Um, the worst, the worst one was this one. [holds red ring finger with large blister on the side up to camera] 

Christine: Woof-a-doo. Yeah, that hurts. Ooh, blister. Ew. 

Em: Yeah, that’s the worst one. Everything else is like kinda small or not as like ready to pop. 

Christine: That sucks. I hate that feeling. 

Em: But also– But this is also like right next to my fingernail. You know I hate fingernail things. 

Christine: Eugh! Yeah. 

Em: And it feels like my whole finger is so swollen that like my fingernail is gonna come off. I like– It really– I can’t even think about it. Um, so that happens– that happened. And then, uh– 

Christine: What were you baking? Mac and cheese? 

Em: No, I was making steak. I just threw it in the– 

Christine: Oh, that’s right. 

Em: I did like– ’Cause we don’t have like a grill or anything. That’s not in– That’s not me saying I want a grill. Mom, don’t give us a grill. 

Christine: “Mom”! [laughs] 

Em: My mom and Allison’s dad are like so desperately trying to get us a grill– 

Christine: What? 

Em: and I have no interest, and Allison has no interest. But– 

Christine: That’s so weird. 

Em: –every time I talk to either of them, they’re like, “You know, what would look good in this yard? A nice grill.” And I’m like– 

Christine: I guess once you get a yard, people just assume, you know. 

Em: What? I don’t wanna fucking grill. I literally can barely text people back. 

Christine: You– 

Em: I’m not gonna keep a grill cleaned. 

Christine: You don’t know how to use an oven. I wouldn’t recommend that you use a grill. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Well, I don’t know how to use my hands near an oven. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s also true. Big danger. 

Em: Um, but no, I’m used to just doing it on, you know, like on the stovetop and then baking it afterwards to like let it collect its juices. Yum! 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Um, but I don’t want a grill. Anyway, my mom’s gonna use this as a reason why I need one. Um, so that happened. What else? Something else happened. Uh, oh, my internet’s acting wonky. And then I had to– I’m trying desperately to update Chrome, and it won’t let me. And I’ve done every single thing I can do at this point. I’ve reset my computer. I’ve updated my computer. I’ve, um, like uninstalled Google Chrome and like brought it back. I’ve– 

Christine: You know now I’m just like itching to make you share your screen, but I’m not gonna do it until after the show. 

Em: Well, when I see you in a couple days, I’ll let you figure it out because– 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: –I c– I’m, I’m so at a loss. But now like certain websites aren’t working because my Chrome isn’t updated. And so I’m like– 

Christine: You gotta go in your set– system preferences. 

Em: I did everything. I’ve like been googling how to fix it– 

Christine: Oh, really? 

Em: –and it like– It’s not, it’s not fixing. So, um, I’m just stressed because weirdly a lot of– 

Christine: What’s the website that won’t work? 

Em: Like, like merchandise websites ’cause I’m trying to do like a Christmas list for– to send me to my parents– 

Christine: Huh. 

Em: –and like weirdly like random, I guess, places that– I don’t know. I don’t know. But there’s been a lot that say– 

Christine: Just go to, go to Ace Hardware. They’re selling grills for like 30% off this time of year. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I feel like that’s a good gift for everyone on your list. 

Em: Anyway, yeah, please help me later. I’m– I– I’m inviting you to help me. 

Christine: I mean, it sounds like I might not be able to, but I– You know me. I will try my b– my darndest. 

Em: I know. I– It– I’m just getting frustrated about it. So that’s why I drink because my own computer seems to not be working. I was nervous actually that it wasn’t going to let us record today. 

Christine: Well, we did have some issues at the beginning. Maybe that’s why. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, and I, I didn’t know if that was the reason. I also– Part of me is like, “Is it a virus?” And like my computer’s fine, but– Like I don’t know. I’m just tripping. 

Christine: Okay, now you sound like your mot– now you sound like all our mothers. 

Em: I’m tripping. ’Cause I don’t know what’s going on, so now I’m in like fear mode. 

Christine: I’m pretty sure it’s not a virus preventing you from buying Christmas presents, but maybe. I’ll look into it. 

Em: That feels like the worst virus I could get. [laughs] 

Christine: That feels like The Grinch 3. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like that feels like the modern day Grinch they’re trying to make that’s gonna suck. 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] Anyway, so I drink– I just– I do– I drink because I feel inconvenienced in a lot of ways this week. Um– 

Christine: Wow, remember when I said that my skeleton had been stolen and spread throughout the neighborhood, and you said, “Okay, what else?” 

Em: I know. I– Well– [looks out window as leaf blowing starts] 

Christine: I’m sorry mine doesn’t live up to all your trauma that you’re experiencing over there. 

Em: I also drink because there’s a man in our yard who is our gardener, but, um, he– 

Christine: There’s a– [laughs] Don’t– Okay, first of all– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –don’t start it like that. Sheesh. 

Em: I did pay him to be here, but I also– Every time I turn a corner like– turn a corner. Every time I look out my window, I– he’s like really up close and personal ’cause he’s l-leaf blowing. So also if you hear leaf blowing, that’s what’s going on. Anyway, I don’t– I don’t know. Everything’s– I think I’m just overstimulated about nothing, if that makes sense. That’s how I feel. 

Christine: I mean, about a lot of things, not nothing. But yeah, I– It does make sense. Totally. 

Em: I feel like things that would usually not stress me out I’m like wildly irritated by today. 

Christine: I find that sometimes I’m– my threshold is lower for like sensory stuff. 

Em: [gasps quietly] Can I tell you why it’s called a threshold? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, oh, I don’t know about like the– in, in– 

Christine: Is it like threshing in like farming and then how much it holds? [laughs] 

Em: N– Well, I– So I don’t know about like the phrase like our– “reaching our threshold,” but I– like the threshold of a door. Do you know why it’s ca-called that? 

Christine: Oh, no. 

Em: You know how like at the– like underneath a door frame is like the threshold? On, on the– 

Christine: Right. Is that like the baseboard or different? 

Em: Yeah. Kind of. 

Christine: It’s– Oh! It’s like the thing that goes between the two baseboards in the doorway. Okay. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So, um, thr– 

Christine: So you take a bride, for example, over the threshold, right? Is that it? 

Em: Yes, yes. 

Christine: Yeah? Okay, okay. 

Em: Um, apparently, thresh is another word for straw, which, by the way, uh, is– Do you know what straw is? ’Cause it’s not hay. Apparently, hay and straw are different things. [laughs] I didn’t know that. 

Christine: Is it grass? 

Em: Apparently, it’s the bottom half of wheat. 

Christine: Ohh. The chaff? 

Em: It’s when you ya– I don’t– I gue– [laughs] 

Christine: Now I’m just saying words. [laughs] Now I’m just saying words like I know anything. 

Em: Okay, like Farmers for America or whatever. 

Christine: Listen, farmers only. 

Em: They have, um– 

Christine: Yeah, so– Oh, Eva said Sunday school. That’s where we learned this shit. That’s true. That is where I learned this shit. 

Em: Oh, okay. Uh, no. So, uh, when you pull out wheat, the bottom half that you break off of it is straw. 

Christine: Yeah, the chaff. Yeah. 

Em: I did not know that. Uh, and– 

Christine: Like separate the, the wheat from the chaff. 

Em: Mm-mmm. Never in my life. 

Christine: You don’t know that? Really? 

Em: Nev– Nope. 

Christine: Wow, okay. Yeah. So I guess the chaff is the straw? 

Em: Sure, which is also the thresh. 

Christine: Stop it. Why do they need to use all these words? 

Em: How can we have three words for that but not like the feeling when it rains, you know? 

Christine: Oh, wha– [laughs] Um, you know what? 

Em: [laughs] The– So apparently– 

Christine: I’m sure like Michael Bublé has said a thing or two that will cover your bases. I wouldn’t worry about it so much. 

Em: [laughs] Well, so I guess they used to use thresh on floors to absorb water in, in areas– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: –like when it would. If you had like kind of like dirt floors, I guess, if your tre– 

Christine: Right, like a straw floor. 

Em: If you trekked water in, it was really good at absorbing that. And so they had straw all over the floor, but you didn’t want it to get knocked out of the house. And so you would put up a little piece of wood underneath the door to hold the thresh in, so it was a threshold. 

Christine: Oh, from the outside? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh, that’s cool! 

Em: So that’s why they call it thresholds ’cause it holds it in. 

Christine: That’s cool! I didn’t know that. 

Em: Isn’t that fun? 

Christine: That’s a fun fact! And now we both learned something about wheat. 

Em: Look at that. 

Christine: Something we will definitely need as we go forward in this life. 

Em: I think so. I have been told by my grandpa many times that I’m supposed to care about wheat pennies. I don’t know what that is. 

Christine: Oh god, the wheat penny. Yeah, don’t get me started. 

Em: Alright. Um, anyway, that’s why I drink. [laughs] And I drink an LD. Obviously. 

Christine: I– That’s all of it. An LD. Excellent. Uh, “excellentante”. It seems like we both have very, uh, very worthy problems this week. Uh, as per usual. 

Em: Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree. 

Christine: Yeah, so– 

Em: ‘Cause I– We’re always– It’s always a worthy cause– 

Christine: Always. 

Em: –us being stressed. 

Christine: It’s a worthy cause. [laughs] It is indeed. It is your turn, my friend, to tell me a story. 

[glass clinks - start of ad break] 

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors] 

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]

Em’s Story – The Cahill Mansion/The Gregory House

Em: Okay, this is, uh– Uh-buh-buh-buh. Oh my gosh. The title went away. What is it called? Oh, oh! It has two names. This is, um, in Gulfport, Mississippi. And this is the story of [holds up one finger] not only the Cahill Mansion, but it is also known as The Gregory House. [holds up two fingers in a V shape – a few seconds after, digital balloons appear around Em, floating upwards]

Christine: The balloons! [laughs] Em did two– uh, the number two on their computer, and all these balloons– [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That’ll never– It’s always the worst timing. 

Em: It– 

Christine: Whoever did this like clearly didn’t do any focus group testing because like it never works the way you want it to. 

Em: How come my laptop, my laptop just updated, and it ha– still does that? Like you couldn’t fix that? 

Christine: These goddamn balloons. It’s like you do the number two and a bunch of balloons fly– Like for what? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t understand. What use does this have? 

Em: I ha– I’ve never once found a use for it yet. Um– 

Christine: Oh my. I mean it’s just a la– it’s like a nice little ease the tension moment, but it really doesn’t add much to the content. So, Apple, get it together. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, anyway, so sorry. Okay, so the Gregory House or the Cahill Mansion. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: I think it’s more famously known as the Cahill Mansion. But– 

Christine: I’ve heard of that. I’ve heard of that. 

Em: Oh, lovely. I– 

Christine: I think. But I feel like maybe that’s just like a name that sounds– 

Em: It sounds haunted. 

Christine: R– It sounds like another na– it sounds like a very cliche– 

Em: Also in the Mississippi, it sounds like a Southern rich house. The Cahill Mansion. 

Christine: Cahill– It just seems very, um– It seems almost like a jeweler, like Kay Diamonds. I don’t know. 

Em: Mm. Yeah, “every kiss begins with Cahill.” 

Christine: Yeah. “Every “kins”– kiss begins with Gregory” doesn’t quite have the same ring to it. 

Em: [laughs] Um, I will say, uh, I think it’s maybe just called the Cahill Mansion, but one source that I used called it the Gregory House. I don’t know if they knew it– that it wasn’t called the Cahill Mansion. I don’t totally know. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: Um, so I just put both. But this is also where I give a massive shout-out to HauntedHouses.com, which– Love them. I use them often for notes, but– 

Christine: And also they work on the old version of Google Chrome, so– 

Em: Yeah– [laughs] 

Christine: –it’s really good news for all of you who can’t update. 

Em: You wanna know how– that I can guarantee that? Because the people who run it are like an old married couple, and– 

Christine: I love this. I love this. 

Em: It’s To– 

Christine: They don’t have like Java going on, all this bullshit. 

Em: No, but it’s– I think their names are Tom and Julie. I think Julie writes them and then Tom takes the pictures. 

Christine: This is won– This is wonderful. That’s my dream. 

Em: It’s like what a b– what a lovely way to bond, you know. 

Christine: What a beautiful couples activity. 

Em: But they have, um, a great website. I use them, uh, not all the time but a lot. I’ll use them if they have a source. I will say, this time around though, they deserve a, a big shout-out because– I don’t know what happened. I don’t know if they went to the house at the right time and they got to like interview someone, but they had information that like no other source had. So, um– 

Christine: This is like a Deep Throat moment, you know. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s like somebody, somebody, some source– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: –out there is gonna whistleblow on these two for getting the scoop. 

Em: I, I don’t know what Julie did to, to get the scoop from Madge but, um– 

Christine: “From Madge.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] But she did it, so I wanna give them a shout-out because if you, um– 

Christine: Sorry I just accused you of like doing illicit things, Tom and Julie. I promise I didn’t mean it. It was a joke. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And this podcast is really dumb, so don’t take it personally. 

Em: I doubt they’re ever heard of us, but, uh– 

Christine: I’m sure they have not, and I hope nobody lets them know. [laughs] 

Em: Anyway, just big shout-out to them because, uh, I would say if not half my information, more than half my information came from them this time, so. 

Christine: Beautiful. 

Em: Uh, not from Julie and Tom, uh, there was one source that called the Cahill Mansion “ a house that has more issues than Vogue,” which– 

Christine: Okay, I love that. My friend actually– They stole that joke ’cause I feel like that a lot of people have that T-shirt. 

Em: I still love it. 

Christine: But it’s still clever, yeah. It’s a good joke, um. 

Em: I still love it. I, I feel like Julie would have gotten a real g– a real laugh out of it. 

Christine: I mean, I feel like Julie was like, “I already know that joke. I’m not gonna like just steal a joke. I can make my own jokes.” Like I’ll say like, “Oh, my tibia– I’m not fibia-ing about it.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And then it’ll like really f– you know, it’ll really work. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. You know what? No one else laughed at that “fibia” joke, but I c– I would’ve gotten a chuckle. And so would Tom. 

Christine: The humer– The “humerus” did fix it. It did fix it. 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: You really did a quick turnaround there. I’m proud of you. 

Em: Sometimes it’s the old switch and bait– bait and switch because, uh, I’ll– Maybe I say the wrong thing, the unfunny part, so that the funny part is even funnier, you know. 

Christine: You do say sometimes– I will say this is the first time I recall this happening, but, uh, if you– 

Em: Just pay attention now. You’ll see. 

Christine: Maybe I gotta like look closer. 

Em: Let’s crack into things. [cracks can open] Nice. 

Christine: That was too soon after my skeleton got dismembered, but okay. Sure. 

Em: It’s– Did it sound like the bones cracking right off and getting strewn across the neighborhood? 

Christine: You know, if it did, I should have been able to hear that on my fucking doorbell camera, but apparently, it’s out of earshot. 

Em: The– You know that it’s the same person throwing bones everywhere because, um, if it were a different person, it became a game where everyone’s throwing things everywhere, then one would have ended up in your yard by now. 

Christine: That’s probably true. 

Em: I f– I feel like they’re actively avoiding your yard. 

Christine: ’Cause none have come back to me. 

Em: So they must know what house they stole it from. 

Christine: You know, and every time I go to the garage, it seems like there are fewer bones. Like a-at first, they left the torso, and I was like, “Okay.” And it was just behind the haystack, and I was just too depressed to even pick him up. And then the next day, somebody posted, “I found a torso of a skeleton. Is this– I remember someone else posting here, like, whose is this?” And I was like, “Oh–“ And then my neighbor texted me, “Hey, somebody found the torso of your skeleton.” I said, “Oh no, that’s not mine.” [laughs] Like– But what the fuck do I think I’m doing? I’m like, “That’s not my torso of a skeleton. Mine’s still here.” What am I thinking? I left it out. So then I go to the garage – torso is missing. Obviously, that was the torso of my skele– I’m like– Who am I to be like, “That’s someone else’s torso.” Anyway. 

Em: Yeah, there’s two people having the same problem in this neighborhood. 

Christine: Right? Like who do I think I am? Accusing this of being someone else’s problem? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Anyway, sorry. So this o– [groans in frustration] It’s fine. 

Em: Well, uh, I’m apo– I am apologizing publicly about the– 

Christine: I thought you were gonna say, “I’m appalled,” and I was like, “I am also appalled. Thank you.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And thank you for apologizing– 

Em: You’re welcome. I don’t t– 

Christine: –for teenagers everywhere. [laughs] 

Em: Honestly, I owe an apology to a lot of people from about 15 years ago. 

Christine: No, and I do too. I think it’s karma. I think it’s karma. I did bullshit like this. 

Em: Same with when my car got egged. I’m like, uh, the– 

Christine: [under breath] Oh, that’s some bullshit. 

Em: My first thought, my first thought, instead of being like the curmudgeony old neighbor being like, “You wily kids!” I thought, “You know what? This is karma.” 

Christine: I deserve this. 

Em: I, I, I should have known in another lifetime this would come back to me. 

Christine: It’s almost like me in the past came to me and did it to me to punish me, you know? 

Em: You know what’s so funny? I think all the time about– Like I think about it in a way that like is unsettling. You should be worried. 

Christine: Uh-oh, I am. 

Em: That, um, that future me will show up. Or alternate reality me will show up, and how– What, what would I say to convince myself immediately that like I need to follow them and like go finish the mission? 

Christine: I love this game. I love this game. 

Em: Um, I think about it – I’m not kidding – at least once a week. Like– And honest, I’ve– At this point– I think if I just saw myself and I just said, “I’m from the future. Come with me,” without question, I think I’d follow because I’ve thought about it so much. 

Christine: I’m super glad that we all know the perfect way to kidnap you now: find a lookalike. 

Em: Well, you have to look exactly, exactly like me. 

Christine: I don’t think we have to look exactly like you. It sounds like you’re ready to believe whoever the hell walks up to you and says, “Hi, I’m future Em.” 

Em: [laughs] I don’t know. I think it would ha– I think the one credential is they have to look exactly like me. 

Christine: Hey guys, let’s do a little– 

Em: If they looked a little off, I would think uncanny valley, and I’d be like, “I don’t know about this.” 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Yeah. But maybe the excuse would be like, “We look different in this, in this world.” Or, “Something happened af–“ 

Christine: “I got plastic– I got so much plastic surgery.” 

Em: “After the accident, I look this way.” Like you know, you could– [laughs] 

Christine: “Now come stop the accident with me.” Yeah, well. Yikes. Of course you’re gonna join. 

Em: Ooh! That’s a good point. Yeah, I’ll have to rethink this now. 

Christine: Shit. 

Em: I’ll have to rethink it. [deep breath] Where were we? This house. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: Uh, okay. This is the Cahill Mansion. And it– 

Christine: Tom and Julie are like, “We, we have not– This is not the shout-out we wanted from anybody.” 

Em: [laughs] “None of this came from our website.” 

Christine: God. 

Em: Okay, this– Uh, there– The location of this place was – not is – was 10 Kimball Drive– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –in the Bayou View neighborhood of Gulfport, Mississippi. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And all locals– Uh, I guess from like the ‘50s to the ‘70s if you grew up around there, you knew about this house. This was like the– It’s like everyone in Fredericksburg knowing about like the Slaughter Pen or something. 

Christine: Oh, I see. It’s j– like a local hotspot. 

Em: Yeah, where all the teens would explore maybe, yeah. 

Christine: Or haunted spot, right. 

Em: Um, so we start in 1915. It was built by this guy, William, and, uh, that’s the last time we hear about William. So– 

Christine: [laughs] He made a name for himself. He really left a legacy, you know. 

Em: [laughs] He said, “I’m gonna build this house. Never mind, I want out.” Um– 

Christine: And then it’s called the Gregory House, and it’s like, “Well, what the fuck was that all for, William?” 

Em: You should have stayed for more than 5 minutes, William, just ‘cause you built it doesn’t mean anything. 

Christine: Sorry. Mm-mm. 

Em: So he built it in 1915, and then several families after the Stewarts moved in. Um, I don’t know if they were leasing it from William, from William Stewart. Sorry, his last name’s Stewart. Oh my god. Let’s try again. Built by William Stewart, but, uh, several families came in after him. I don’t know if they were leasing it from him or if they just– if everyone was moving in and out. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Basically, it was a residential home for the first 20-ish years of its life, and then in 1941, during World War II, the air force took it over. And they took it as a– They turned it into a, um, NCO Club– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –which is a non-commissioned [mumbling] “off-fin-der’s”– 

Christine: Non-commissioned officer. 

Em: I literally didn’t know that. Isn’t that crazy? 

Christine: Yeah, it is a little crazy. Also did you just say offen– offenders? 

Em: No, I just slurred my words. I– It’s– 

Christine: I was like, “That’s fun. Non-co–“ Uh– 

Em: Non-Commissioned– 

Christine: Offenders. [laughs] 

Em: –Officer’s Club. [laughs] Um, okay. Well, since you know everything and you got your degree, what– 

Christine: I dated a guy in the army. Sorry, okay? It’s not– It is my– I was gonna say it’s not my fault. It’s fully my fault, and I take full responsibility for my crimes. But anyway, that’s how I know. 

Em: Do you know what an NCO Club is? Or an Officer’s Club? 

Christine: Is it where they just hang out? 

Em: I think so. Apparently, they don’t make them anymore because something about when there was a dip in alcohol prices, they started going out to like restaurants and didn’t need these clubs anymore. 

Christine: [laughs] They were like, “Red Lobster serves us this at a half price. Don’t even worry about it. We can get all the shrimp we want too.” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, so basically it was like a, um, a– like a social– I’m assuming like a rec space, a– 

Christine: Yeah, like a VW club or some– Not VW. That’s Volkswagen. A VFW. 

Em: A VA? VFW? 

Christine: Is VFW–? Now I’m having a, now I’m having a– 

Em: Virginia Fort Worth? No, I don’t– 

Christine: Oh my god. No, VFW – Veterans of Foreign Wars. The VFW like, uh– The– They have like those legions, you know– 

Em: Mm 

Christine: –where you can like have a hall. You have like a party space, like a rentable hall, and they have like card games and shit. 

Em: I think that’s what this was. Um, it was– Yeah, it seemed, it seemed to be something along those lines. And when the mansion became an off– Officer’s Club, um, one sergeant there really got into some nefarious activities– 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: –and brought it into the club, um, where I don’t know if everyone was for sure involved, but everyone sounds complicit if they knew about it. 

Christine: [laughs] Oh no! So they are the offenders, the non-commissioned offenders. 

Em: [laughs] Well, so they turned the upstairs into a gambling hall, which was the bedrooms. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Guess what else they turned the bedrooms into? 

Christine: A brothel? 

Em: A brothel. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: But I don’t even know if these were proper sex workers. It sounds like these women were being trafficked. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And if the women– 

Christine: Oh no! 

Em: And if the women got pregnant, then while in the building, they were forced to have abortions so nobody would find out that the men were raping them. 

Christine: [horrified] Heh? 

Em: Um, that’s the story that we’ve got here. So eventually, hi– the– his superiors– The guy who was running this thing, uh, his superiors found out. We don’t know if he got fired, but, you know, let– 

Christine: Probably not. Let’s just go with probably not. 

Em: Let the history of America tell you. 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, let’s just, let’s just take a glance at the pattern. Sure, okay. 

Em: ’Cause, ’cause there is– There’s one source that said after the war that sergeant ended up like going back to the house and like, uh, taking valuables he had like stowed away there or something. So that implies he was not in fucking jail, so– 

Christine: Right, he was at least on the loose to go get his valuables. Right. 

Em: Yeah, um. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So anyway, that’s the worst part of the story, I guess, uh, that it was an Officer’s Club that ended up being shut down for that kind of stuff. 

Christine: Yeah, get out of my space. Get out of my, [laughs] “my space”? Sorry. That was a weird way to say that, but get out of my territory here. I’m the dark one. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I tell you the fucked up shit. 

Em: Thank you. I don’t like talking about it, so you can keep it up. 

Christine: Some people only listen to this part, so, you know. 

Em: You know what? For the people who listen for the, um, true crime portion, I’m glad I gave you a little taste. 

Christine: [laughs] There you go. A little, a little crumb. 

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Em: After– So after the air force, uh, moved out of the building, the mansion then got owned by the Cahill family, so that’s how it became the Cahill House. 

Christine: Okay. Oh, I see. 

Em: But they were only there for a few years. Um, I think it was like– It was definitely less than ten. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, it was– I think it was closer to like five years that the Cahills lived here. They had– It was a husband, wife, and two kids. But in 1953, when they were living there, their 14-year-old son had a tractor accident on the property and died. 

Christine: [gasps] Shit. 

Em: I think the tractor rolled over him. 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: Um, and I th– Shortly after, I don’t know if that’s why, but the Cahills then moved away. Maybe it was just like too hard to be there. 

Christine: [sighs] Yeah, yeah. 

Em: And that’s when the building again became known as the Cahill Mansion. But in 1957, so only four years later, a new family moved in: the Gregorys, which is our main characters of the, of the night. 

Christine: Oh, okay. Gotcha. 

Em: Um, so it was– I think his name was Dr. Kendall Gregory– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –and his wife was named Ginny, and then they had apparently a shitload of kids. I think– They– It was a blended family because it sounds like it was from multiple marriages. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So the kids, as soon as they moved in, claimed that spooky things were happening to them. But, of course, the parents brushed it off at first, uh, even though they did have their suspicions. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: I guess Ginny was on top of it, and she was quoted saying, “My feeling on moving here was simply one of not being alone. I felt like I was always being watched.” 

Christine: Ew-ah! 

Em: Yuck. 

Christine: Bad news. 

Em: The second you walk into a house and you feel like you’re being watched, why would you move in there? 

Christine: Can’t happen, can’t happen. 

Em: But I guess– [sighs] 

Christine: I mean, I guess maybe you just didn’t have a choice or whatever, but– 

Em: Yeah, in 1957 and– 

Christine: It can’t be a good start, you know. 

Em: It’s– I, I feel bad for all the women who had to move into a haunted house when they didn’t have a say and they just had to roll their eyes through it. 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: Just like [rolls eyes] “Ugh, here we go.” 

Christine: Yeah, it can’t feel nice. No. 

Em: Soon enough, Ginny was in agreement with these kids who were saying shit was going on because she began hearing screaming at night that was so frequent and so loud that she literally started wearing earplugs to bed. 

Christine: [gasps] [laughs] That’s like– Already, you’re like, “Um, hey, girl.” 

Em: I love how on day one she’s fed up. Like she’s– 

Christine: I love that she had to go find earplugs ’cause I imagine the ‘50s you’d– you can’t just like fucking go to Walgreens and buy like any assortment of earplugs. 

Em: No. 

Christine: Like you probably have to go to a fucking pharmacy and be like, “I– Just don’t ask why, but I need earplugs.” Maybe, maybe you could say, “my husband snores,” you know. 

Em: Yeah. I– Or, or “there’s screaming in the house, you know how that goes.” 

Christine: Or there’s, there’s gh– “there’s ghouls I need to hide from.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It could go either way. [laughs] 

Em: You know, that’s a– That does add to the theory though that she was just a housewife in the ‘50s who didn’t have a say. Because if she’s now having to already correct her own sleep schedule– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –because of these gho– 

Christine: Big time. 

Em: Like she’s locked in, whether or not she wants to be. Um, other times, the entire family would hear screaming except Ginny. Isn’t that terrifying? 

Christine: [gasps] That– 

Em: Which is worse? 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: Only you or everyone but you? 

Christine: I think, in the moment, everyone but me would be better. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: because I’d be like, “Okay, whatever. You guys are–“ I can like tell myself like, “Well, I don’t hear anything, so–“ 

Em: “Should go borrow my earplugs while I fall–“ [laughs] 

Christine: Right. Exactly. 

Em: “–while I go to bed.” 

Christine: But I think the more I thought about it, I’d be really alarmed. Like in theory, that’s not good. I think in the moment, it would be like, “Oh, yeah. You guys are silly. I don’t hear anything.” But then– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: I just saw a video on TikTok– Have you seen the videos of, um, like mimics showing up in people’s houses? 

Christine: Yes. Oh! Oh, oh, oh, oh. I just got goose cam. It’s so scary. I went down a rabbit hole a few months ago and watched like 40 of them. And I was like, “Why am I doing this?” 

Em: I just– I saw one come on last night where only one of them could hear the voice upstairs, and the other one couldn’t. And they like were recording it, so that way she could play it back him and be like, “See? This is what I was hearing.” 

Christine: [makes retching noise] 

Em: Isn’t that awful? 

Christine: I just have chills. The first one I watched was, um, the o– [laughs] My gateway, my gateway video that I watched was the one where her mom like showed up at her door and was like banging on the door and was like, “ You have to let me in.” But like– 

Em: Ugh, I’ve seen that one. 

Christine: The doorbell didn’t like show her or something. 

Em: [inhales sharply] [sighs] 

Christine: And then she’s like, “My mom never comes o– Like she would never talk like this. Her voice is different.” Ew, I’m [unintelligible]. 

Em: Which like that’s a bad mimic at that point. 

Christine: Yeah. First of all– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That’s what everyone else was saying. Like it’s not even very good. Um, yeah. Ooh, I have chills. Creepy. 

Em: I do too. There’s nothing that freaks me out more than a mimic, um. 

Christine: It’s like that doppelgänger thing. I don’t like it. 

Em: Eugh. 

Christine: I don’t like it at all. 

Em: And also like that you can– Like you shouldn’t, by the way, if you ever hear a mimic, you’re supposed to like not speak to it and engage with it. 

Christine: Not react. Not engage. 

Em: But, um, how– And also like how would you know? The first time they knock on the door. you’d go “Yeah? Like what’s–“ You know? 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: You accidentally fall into it. 

Christine: I remember she was like hiding in her room, and she’s like, “This lady is just banging on the door saying she’s my mom. And she looks like my mom, but I know she’s not.” [screams softly] Ahh! 

Em: Which I don’t understand the physic of a mimic because couldn’t yo– Couldn’t the mimic just walk into the other half of the room and talk into your face? 

Christine: No, maybe you have to invite it. 

Em: Oh, interesting. 

Christine: You know what I mean? 

Em: I always forget that like there might actually be like etiquette and rules on the other side. 

Christine: Like rules? Etiquette? [laughs] Yeah. Etiquette when they’re trying to like steal your soul. It feels like why, why would there be rules? But– 

Em: It’s like you already want to kill me. Like why are we following rules at this point? 

Christine: Why are you being polite to me? That doesn’t make sense. [laughs] 

Em: Like I’ve never understood why a vampire can’t be– like has to be invited in. I’m like you’re a fucking vampire. Just– Like how– Like I’m, I’m sure there’s a reason, and I’ve just never heard it yet. But– 

Christine: Like you’re literally going to drain my blood, why do I need to give you the time of day? 

Em: Consent to that. 

Christine: Yeah, like why do I need to be polite to you right now? 

Em: It’s wild that consent is so important to you as you’re about to kill me without my consent. [laughs] 

Christine: Mm. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. 

Em: Um, okay. So anyway, she was hearing screaming sometimes, and then other times everyone else was hearing the screaming. She described the sound as quote, “an indescribable, bubbly moan–“ 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: “–a horrible, hideous sound, as if someone was in unbearable agony.” 

Christine: Oh, that’s haunting. 

Em: And you must– At some point, you’ve heard it so much that she’s just popping those earplugs, and she’s like, “Whatever,” you know. 

Christine: I thought you were gonna say like popping her valium. I was like, “Yeah. Me too, girl.” 

Em: [laughs] I would be. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But I mean at– The first time must have been so just like distressing– 

Christine: Distressing. Yes. 

Em: And then by the time you’re putting earbuds in, you’re like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, someone’s screaming in pain. Whatever.” 

Christine: You’re like, “Not again, girl. Get over it.” Yeah. 

Em: Another time, Ginny woke up to a man floating by her bed. And the description was, um, was long, but basically what they were saying is that he was– he had his hand under his elbow like this. So his arm is resting in his hand, and then this hand was resting on his chin. So he was just like– 

Christine: So like a Mr. Rogers situation. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Like just kinda holding his head. Um, and he was just staring at her while floating by her bed. 

Christine: Ew! 

Em: This is what she woke up to: a guy just doing this. 

Christine: That would piss me off. 

Em: [laughs] Me too. 

Christine: I’m like, “Why are you looking so casual?” 

Em: Like, “Why are you so fucking comfy in this room?” Yeah. 

Christine: Right? Like fucking get outta here. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: God, that pisses me off. 

Em: That would T me right O. 

Christine: That pisses me– That T-es me right off! Is what it does. I’m frickin’ T-ed– T-O-ed at this point. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And I bet Ginny was too. 

Em: I’m sure she was. She was like, “I literally already have earplugs in, and now you have to bother my eyes. Are you kidding me?” 

Christine: “Now I gotta get a fucking blindfold? Ugh!” 

Em: Another, another time, uh, her– Ginny and her husband– I think his name was Kendall. I, I, I– Some of the sources were confusing. Kendall is either the husband or one of the kids. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: But I’m sure Ginny would say they’re all her kids. Ha-ha-ha! 

Christine: [laughs nasally] 

Em: [laughs] Yuck. So, um, I’m just gonna call him Kendall, but that’s– I mean the husband. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So Kendall and Ginny – they were, another time, woken up to something, like literally as hard as it could, punching on their headboard. 

Christine: Oh, not their head. Phew! 

Em: Oh. [laughs] 

Christine: I was like, “That’s gotta be shitty.” Okay, on your headboard is also not good. 

Em: But also their headboard was like an 1800s antique, and now you’re hitting it? Are you kidding me? Like– 

Christine: Okay, but it wasn’t an antique then. 

Em: In the 1950s? It was still like– 

Christine: Oh, never mind. 

Em: –60 years old. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s very much an antique. I thought you were saying, “Oh, because it was so old back then that–“ And I was like, “No, they made stuff to last.” 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: So this was a literally antique thing. 

Em: A literal antique that’s– someone was just punching. 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: And they just woke up to like the punching sounds. 

Christine: I wonder if the bed is haunted then. That’s weird. 

Em: Oh, that’s interesting. Well, remember that their bedroom though used to be where the gambling hall and the sex work was happening. 

Christine: Oh, duh. Okay. 

Em: The trafficking was happening. 

Christine: Sure, sure. 

Em: So they woke up to something banging on their headboard and then also the sound of like fingernails tapping themselves on the headboard. 

Christine: This is– Yeah. 

Em: Like almost like trying to like wake them up. Like it– 

Christine: That’s scary. Like get your attention sort of. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Ugh. 

Em: Another time, um, they– Well, let’s just put it this way. They weren’t the only time– the only people who saw apparitions in the house because their children were seeing them non-stop. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, so the kids would wake up to– Here’s a list for you of things they would wake up to. 

Christine: I was gonna say, you put your hand on the computer like, [in announcer voice] “The kids would wake up to… and here we go.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Glowing figures getting up in their face and then walking out of the room. 

Christine: This– These, these ghosts all have like serious attitude problems. Like getting up in your face with your hand– your chin resting on your hand like, “I’m so bored watching you sleep,” you know. 

Em: Yeah, so cocky. Yeah. Uh, a woman floating on the ceiling. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: An apparition that stood by their beds every night. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: A bright light emanating from the closet. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Spirits that looked like heat waves walking through the room. 

Christine: Weird. 

Em: Their dresser drawers opening by themselves, books falling off the desk by themselves, their names being called by children’s voices, and the cl– 

Christine: Mm! 

Em: And the closet door opening and a little boy walking out towards their bed, through their body, bending down, and staring at them while they’re in bed. 

[silence] 

[laughs] 

Christine: Hang on. I’m trying to– So he walks out of the closet. What do you mean throu– 

Em: He walks out of the closet towards, toward– So imagine like your closet door opens– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –a, a little kid– Although a d– another source said it was a grownass man, which is even more terrifying. 

Christine: Way worse. 

Em: But a, an apparition– A male apparition walks out of the closet after opening the door– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –walking towards you while you’re lying in bed, then walks through you– 

Christine: Ohh, while you’re– 

Em: –and then once he got to the other side of your bed, he s– leans over into your face and just stared at you. 

Christine: Absolutely not. First of all, it’s like why did you have to go through me to look? Like just stay there. Like you can see me from there. 

Em: Like I was– You could already see– You could already see me. 

Christine: Yeah, don’t– Stop. You’re just making a scene now is what you’re doing. 

Em: Yeah, it’s the bravado. It’s the br– [laughs] 

Christine: I’m getting angry. Yes, it is the bravado. It’s like, “What is your deal, dude?” 

Em: Yeah, they’re just all really up in my space. 

Christine: But like for some reason this also feels like the mo– one of the more, most, to me at least, convincing haunting stories because I feel like these all feel very believable. Like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like heatwave apparition– Like that feels very specific and believable. Like drawers opening. Like hearing your name– Like it all feels very believable, like stuff people submit to us for Listener Stories. It’s not like so over the top like some haunting stories are, you know. 

Em: I like that we’re so, um, jaded– 

Christine: Jaded. [laughs] 

Em: –at this point that like a person walking through you, leaning over, and staring into your face is like just, you know, meat and potatoes. 

Christine: “Ugh, jeez. Not again.” 

Em: [laughs] So the family also encountered, obviously, footsteps running through the entire house, especially– 

Christine: Obviously. [laughs] 

Em: –especially in your bedroom while you’re sleeping. Um– 

Christine: Classic. 

Em: Uh, oh, they also had an upstairs porch, which – okay, money – um, but– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –they would hear people walking around on the porch at night, which sounds like someone’s gonna break into your fucking house. 

Christine: That– I was gonna say, that’s actually really scary ’cause you’re like, “Oh, someone climbed the patio.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Uh, you would also feel a lot of cold spots. Apparently, the light fixtures in their house would just fall off the ceiling– 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: –which I, I have to beg is bad construction. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, and more bad construction, although it’s definitely a ghost, is that their rooms would refuse to be painted. 

Christine: What? 

Em: The paint would never last on the– The original wall color would always come through. 

Christine: Ew! Why? That’s so creepy. 

Em: It– Yeah, I hate that one. It’s like, “Oh, you can’t change us.” 

Christine: That’s, that’s bad. 

Em: Or, “You have to live in our history or something.” 

Christine: Yuck. 

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Em: Uh, candles were found lit on their own. And one time, one of the kids’ jackets literally spontaneously combusted. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: It just burst into flames. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s terrifying. 

Em: They– The family has also seen a little girl, a man in dark clothing walking through the rooms, a man in a suit reading the paper, and a man in the– in 1930s clothing come out of the bathroom, stare at them, quote, “square in the face,” and then walk up the stairs and fade away. 

Christine: The gall of these fucking ghosts. 

Em: Like why are you– Like he’s just staring me square in the face after coming out of the bathroom ’cause he’s busted that he like stank up the room. 

Christine: To make a statement. Yeah, exactly. And he’s, he’s pretending like he’s not ashamed. 

Em: Yeah, he just stared, “What are you doing here?” What are you doing here? Get out of my bathroom. 

Christine: Yeah, what the fuck? Who do you think you are? 

Em: Uh, in empty rooms, the whole family and friends who would stay over would hear a loud cocktail party going on, um, like singing, music, laughing, glasses clinking. 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: Sometimes you would already be in the room, and all of a sudden, everything else would go silent. And then you would hear– like you, like you were in the party. 

Christine: That’s, that’s really cool. I feel like I would– If I had to pick a haunting, that would be the least threatening to me. Like– 

Em: [laughs] ’Cause they invited you to be their friend. 

Christine: No. ’Cause like if they’re having a party in the other room, it’s like, “Oh, they’re busy. They don’t care about me.” You know what I mean? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s almost like they didn’t invite me, so I’m so happy. They can have their little party, and I can like have a ghostly experience without being involved. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: You know? 

Em: Yeah, this one I, I think freaks me out even more ’cause it’s almost like they’re laying their reality over mine. 

Christine: If it c– If it comes into my room, I don’t appreciate that. If it’s in a different room, it’s like, “Okay, good. Like you guys have your party. I’ll just listen in while I read my book.” But if you’re inside– Like I didn’t ask to be invited. I don’t want to be part of this. Yeah. 

Em: I would always get paranoid that like if I heard a party that I’d be like, “Is, is this like you guys are having fun?” One. Two, “Are you– Am I invited?” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And then three, [laughs] I would be like, “Is this actually more, um, scary than I’m thinking it is?” Like is this like the eerie first few minutes before a tragedy or something? And that’s why you’re in this like blueprint haunting of this moment. 

Christine: Oh god, I hadn’t even thought of that. So it’s like, oh, maybe this is a marker of something terrible that happened. It’s replaying. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh, Em. That’s so dark. Well, I was thinking, “Oh, maybe it was just–“ 

Em: [laughs] Welcome to my brain. 

Christine: [laughs] I was just thinking maybe there’s some like– Maybe th– it was like a memory of some really positive energy like– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Just like the most raucous night they ever had, and it got replayed. I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. No, I get that. But like– 

Christine: Then again, if there are literally trafficked women there, there’s nothing positive about that if it was coming from that time period, so. 

Em: So maybe, maybe it’s the ghost of a woman like trying to like tell you like what happened to her or something. 

Christine: Like replay that night. Yeah, good point. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So it could be dark. 

Em: Because– In, um, I, I don’t remember the story anymore, but when I was a, a Segway ghost hunter tour guide, uh, in, uh, Yorktown– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: There’s one story– It might be– It’s in Yorktown or it’s in Williamsburg– 

Christine: I know some people just paused the show and texted their friend like, “Did you know Em used to be a Segway guy?” 

Em: I know. [laughs] 

Christine: ’Cause I don’t think we’ve talked about since like episode five. 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: Like I feel like people don’t know that. 

Em: That, uh, that was my college job? 

Christine: I just– I’m– 

Em: Yeah, I was a, a kite salesman, a, a boat builder, a– 

Christine: Yeah, I’m just like giggling at all the people going, “Wait, what?” [laughs] 

Em: –a ghost hunter, a to– a ghost tour guide, a Segway tour guide. Um– 

Christine: Chipotle just for the corn recipe. 

Em: Chipotle– That was not in Yorktown, but that was 20 minutes down the road. But I did work at the one next to the Patrick Henry Mall, if you have been there. Um, anyway, there was one ghost there where like he got– Uh, he was reading the paper and then got shot– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and he died. And now people see the ghost of him reading the paper. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So it’s almost like the beginning– 

Christine: Oh, so it’s like a, a replay of that traumatic incident. Right. Okay. 

Em: So when I hear a party going on, I always feel like it’s the beginning of whatever happened next. 

Christine: Ohh. That’s a great point. That’s a great point. I hadn’t thought of it that way, so thank you for adding a new, um– just a new, a new dark angle to my life. 

Em: [laughs] A terrifying angle. 

Christine: I appreciate that. Thank you. 

Em: Well, so so– Even– Imagine like, um, being a guest in their house, then all of a sudden waking up, and you’re, you’re in an empty room, but it sounds like there’s a party going on around you. That’s so jarring. 

Christine: [laughs] That’s horrible. That’s horrible. 

Em: It’s almost like they were like they all stood around you with like musical instruments, and they went [whispering] “Three, two, one.” 

Christine: Yes! [laughs] 

Em: And then like started pranking you. 

Christine: You know, when I was little and I couldn’t sleep at night– ’Cause I could never sleep ’cause I think there were a lot of weird things happening. But when I was like– I remember when my mom moved my little brother into my room– And he was like a tiny baby, and I– so I must have been like two and a half, three years old. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And I remember them moving him in there, and I was like so scared because I was like, “I want to protect him.” I mean already at three, I had so many mental issues. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Anyway, I was like so paranoid about protecting him that I would try to stay awake as long as I could. And then when I just really needed to sleep and I couldn’t, I would pretend that Raffi and all his like children singers would be standing around my bed, singing songs to me, so that like the bad ghosts couldn’t come through. 

Em: That’s actually very beautiful that you, um– Like they were your, your force field. Like Raffi was your shield. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, I li– No, that’s– I don’t think I ever thought about it like until this moment really, but like I used to pretend they were just standing around my bed, like singing, like the Christmas like [singing] ♪ Must be Santa / Must be ♪♪ [speaking] And I would be like, “It’s fine. It’s all happy.” ’Cause that was my favorite little CD, and so I would pretend like, um– ’Cause I would see this guy, this dark thing walk into my room. I– It’s probably just my imagination, but anyway– 

Em: I also s– I had a thing all the time that I’m still scared to sleep in my mom’s room. 

Christine: And I thought it was Batman. I called it Batman ’cause it looked like this dark like shadow figure. And it would come in the room, and I’d always be like, “Oh, I have to protect Alexander,” so I would pretend like Raffi and all his little children’s choir were like surrounding our beds. [laughs] 

Em: Oh– 

Christine: And that was, that was my little protective shield. Anyway, so now with Leona, I just have like such a, um, a fondness for Raffi. I’m like, I just love him. 

Em: That’s– I– So were they looking at you, singing like to distract you? Or were they looking away to like– as a, as a force field? 

Christine: Oh, it was like to me. It was almost like I was just like watching a little concert, you know. 

Em: Oh, wow. Okay. 

Christine: A-and I got to be like part of– I think I also liked the idea that like I got to be part of all the kids who were singing– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and like singing in my head, you know. 

Em: No, when I, um, when I was little and I would get scared and like go sleep in my mom’s room– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I, I don’t even– It’s so weird because I would actually be too scared– I would have to pick a struggle because I was either too scared in my room that I would go sleep in my mom’s room– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –or I would be like, “I’m scared, but I might as well just stay here anyway because I’m more scared of my mom’s room.” Because– 

Christine: What happened in your mom’s room? 

Em: Do you remember the Looney Tunes characters, Rocky and Mugsy? They were like gangsters. Like one was a little short one, and one was like a big, tall, like kind of buffoon. 

Christine: Oh my god, yes. 

Em: Okay, so the tiny one– 

Christine: They’re scary. 

Em: The tiny one– He was the one who was like in charge. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, he was– I swear to God, I always saw him standing in, in the doorway when I was sleeping at my mom’s house. 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: But I would always be scared because the guy that’s still in my bedroom who I hear walking nonstop– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Every time I hear him, I would be like, “Do I just want to deal with this tonight, or do I want to go like see that little tiny gangster in my mom’s room?” 

Christine: [gasps] Wait, and you thought the one in your mom’s room was worse? Or just like a different problem? 

Em: Yeah, ’cause I could see it. 

Christine: Ohh, that’s bad. 

Em: Like the one in my, in my room, I could never see it, but I could hear him. And I could feel him get up in my face, and I hated it. But if I went to my mom’s room, I wouldn’t hear or feel anything near me, but I would see that thing just standing in the doorway. 

Christine: Oh my god, Em. I feel like I never think or talk about this stuff, and I hear people talk about their like childhoods, and I’m like, “Wow, you had so much crazy shit.” But like I remember when my mom moved out and I would stay in my dad’s bed– ’Cause I would get scared and I’d go to my dad’s bed, and there was like a d– After my mom moved out– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –it like changed. 

Em: Really? 

Christine: Like the characters changed, which is like maybe just a weird psychological, uh, thing– projection but still very weird. Like I remember when my mom and dad were both there, it was like scary in its own way like I would see whatever; I’d imagine whatever. But then when my mom moved out and I’d go to my dad’s bed, I was like, “Oh my god. There’s way more like weird stuff happening.” 

Em: Yeah. Ugh. 

Christine: Anyway– I don’t know. I need to go get another glass of wine. Hold on. I’m having a, having a slight mental breakdown. Please hold. 

Em: [sighs] Okay. 

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Christine: Okay, I feel better now. 

Em: I– 

Christine: Doesn’t, doesn’t this– Look, I told you – Pinot grigio. I’m glad that you called it. 

Em: Oh, stunning. 

Christine: [quietly while wine into mug] Stunning. 

Em: I– While you do that, I’m gonna eat a little cheesy cheese, which, um– 

Christine: Oh my god, wine and cheese. We’re so fucking classy. What happened? 

Em: And last night, you know what I was snacking on? Which I don’t really totally recommend, but I was eating it. Um, was, uh, dried cr– Not dried cranberries, dried cherries. 

Christine: Dried cherries. I was gonna say Leona just got dried cherries, and she feels very conflicted about them. 

Em: I– They’re just a fancier raisin. I don’t know. 

Christine: She was like, “These are good, but I don’t want anymore.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And we were like “Interesting.” It’s her first foray into like “I think I like it–“ Like it’s like me with fig jam. I’m like, “I guess I get it with like cheese and crackers, but I don’t know. Maybe leave it on the tray.” 

Em: I feel like, um– Yeah, I got it because I was craving cherries. Craving. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. That’s happened with Leona, and we couldn’t f– They didn’t sell them ’cause it’s not in season. 

Em: It’s– It– They’re not in season. Yeah. 

Christine: Yes! Holy shit. That’s so funny. 

Em: Me and Leona need to talk about this. 

Christine: You guys are actually starting to freak me out. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I have a bag of dried cherries on the counter that we bought last week or a few days ago, and she was like, “I don’t know about thi–“ She’s like very– She’s like, “I just want regular cherries.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And we’re like, “Well, sorry. Even in America, we can’t get our hands on those bad boys right now.” 

Em: I was cr– like craving it like no other. Like I was becoming a problem. 

Christine: Maybe you guys were having like a joint delusion, you know? 

Em: Yeah, that’ll happen a lot. 

Christine: ’Cause she was also having a– the epic meltdown of “I want cherries more than anything in the world.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So I don’t know what was going on. 

Em: I ended up getting kiwis instead. 

Christine: Oh, love a kiwi. 

Em: It was fine. I love a kiwi, but I was– I really wanted a cherry. 

Christine: If you want a cherry, nothing’ll do. Nothing else will do. 

Em: Especially those like super dark ones. [groans] 

Christine: [groans] The best. 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: I have one of those pitters now for Leona where you just like pop ‘em out, the, the seeds out. 

Em: Okay, I thought I needed one of those. I actually realized I kinda like chewing them out– 

Christine: The spitting the seeds out? Yeah. 

Em: –because I like to feel like an old redneck, and I just like to spit into my little spittoon can. [makes sound of spitting pit into metal container] Pa– Pa-ting! 

Christine: Like– Oh, yeah. I mean, my brother and mo– My brother, mother, and I, you know, during our divorce days, would just sit on the back porch and try to see [laughs] who could spit the cherry pit the farthest, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Christine: It’s a, it’s a nostalgia thing too. 

Em: Oh, well– 

Christine: Leona’s like, “Fuck that. I just want like my perfectly pit-removed cherries please. Thank you.” 

Em: Well, if I were, if I were Leona’s mother, I’d be terrified to like– of a pit and sh– her choking. 

Christine: Yes, yes, yes. Also it started because she’s a baby and she can’t eat them– 

[laughs] 

Christine: –but I think maybe she’s not into the nostalgia like we are. 

Em: One day, her and I are gonna go nuts on some cherries together. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. I don’t doubt it for one second. 

Em: Um, where were we? 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: This sounds like a cocktail party. 

Christine: Are we still recording? Okay. 

Em: [laughs] Uh, apparently, we would hear– They would hear cocktail party music. And then they would also hear heavy dragging and crashing. 

Christine: Oh. Oh! Oh, maybe that’s a thing you meant. That like something bad happened one night. 

Em: Maybe, but I think, I think they would hear them at different times. 

Christine: Oh, oh, oh. 

Em: They would like a cocktail party. They would hear heavy dragging and crashing. And at different times, they would hear a woman screaming “get out”– 

Christine: [gasps] Shit. 

Em: –which I hate that because she’s probably trying to fight someone off. 

Christine: And to think like it’s all in the bedrooms where the kids are all sleeping. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like that’s just terrifying. 

Em: The worst, uh, arguably, in terms of like ghost hauntings– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: The kids woke up to circles drawn in blood on their windows. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Fun fact, this was, uh, days before JFK was assassinated. And so th– 

Christine: That– You know what? That is a fun fact. Thank you. [laughs] 

Em: Well, I say that because it also was like such a weird jarring statement to see in the sources when they were like, “And of course, you can’t forget JFK.” And I was like, “What?” 

Christine: [laughs] You can’t? 

Em: I was like, I was like, “What in the QAnon is going on?” 

Christine: Please let, let me forget about JFK for a minute. God dammit. 

Em: Well, so. Okay, so they had this experience, and it was days before. Days later, which happened to be the day that JFK was assassinated, the kids again woke up to blood on their windows, but now it was literal handprints smeared into the windows. And it was dripping off of their curtains. 

Christine: That had to be a prank, right? Like one of the kids got ketchup. 

Em: Well, so, uh, Kendall took a sample to the doctor– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –and it was, in fact, human blood that– 

Christine: No! 

Em: –which they, they cannot explain because nobody was injured. 

Christine: Okay, that’s upsetting. 

Em: And the blood was weirdly RH positive, which I guess so was JFK. 

Christine: Yes– Well, I know RH positive ’cause when you’re pregnant that’s like a big risk factor. 

Em: Oh. Well, apparently, it was just they, they really like to tie in the JFK thing in all of the fucking sources I read. So I’m also just reporting the news here. Everyone leave me alone. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: I don’t totally see the com– the, the connection, but maybe because JFK was such a big thing historically, that day, it became part of their story. But– 

Christine: Right, I guess it’s like, “Wow. What a momentous occasion in history, and also this really freaky weird thing happened.” Yeah. 

Em: “That there’s blood dripping everywhere that happened to match JFK’s blood the day he was shot.” 

Christine: I mean– This is s– [laughs] so not the– I love that the doctor’s like, “Sure, I’ll test this blood and see if it’s RH positive.” Like okay. 

Em: Yeah, it just– It makes– 

Christine: I guess like pregnant women in this country can’t even get a normal healthcare appointment, but it’s fine. Whatever the fuck. 

Em: [laughs] But if a man brings the sample, then all of a sudden– Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, then it’s different. Um, also, fun fact about JFK, I guess. But, um– Mm. Yeah, I don’t know how I feel about this. I feel– 

Em: What? 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: What? 

Christine: I don’t know. I just feel like somebody pranked– That– This is the first line where I feel like, “Okay, this feels like a stretch.” But I mean, they all kinda do like e-eventually. 

Em: I don’t– I– All I know is that every source, this was like their favorite part to talk about, so. 

Christine: Yeah, I guess so. 

Em: But I, I also don’t know where the blood would have come from. No one seemed injured, certainly not enough to have blood like seeping out of curtains. 

Christine: Yeah, I mean that’s freaky. 

Em: Like that’s a lot of blood. That’s– 

Christine: The fact that they tested it is very alarming to me, yeah. 

Em: Yeah, they– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And I mean, that was also quoted from– That wasn’t just like a, a reporter saying that. It was quoted from them saying it in a newspaper in like the ‘80s– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –which like, I don’t know if that makes it more or less legitimate that it came from them. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: But, um, yeah, that’s a lot– That’s not like, “Oh, I got a paper cut and–“ Or, oh, even “I really got myself bad, and I grabbed the window, and now the smear is there.” Like I mean, like dripping from the curtains is crazy. 

Christine: Right. And like your parents– If it was like a kid, your parents would notice if you cut your hand open to bleed everywhere, you know. I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s very freaky. 

Em: I don’t, I don’t know. Uh, one night, one of their kids decided– This is obviously us. They’re– They were very aware of the ghosts, obviously, and the kid was like, “I’m gonna have a sleepover with my friends downstairs.” Maybe they were trying to find the ghosts. I don’t know. But they were just all downstairs together. 

Christine: I mean, that feels very perfect. Like your friends come over, like, “You have a ghost, right?” And it’s like, “Oh, yeah, but can we do something else? I got Scrabble.” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Like, no. Let’s find the ghost. Ugh. 

Em: In, in hindsight, I totally get why the kid who lived there wouldn’t want to do that. 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: Um, but, I would have all– I would have totally been the kid who forced them to let me go ghost hunting. 

Christine: We would have been– Absolutely. We would have been like, “We brought the Ouija board. Now what? We’re ready.” 

Em: Yeah. “We didn’t actually need you here. We just needed access to your house.” Um– 

Christine: “Yes, thank you for inviting us. You can go back to bed. We have things to do.” 

Em: Well, the kid sounded like he was down, so, um, him and his friends were all down there. And again, they’re sitting in, in the living room, and they hear a loud cocktail party going on. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And by the way, that would have been enough for me to go, “Okay, thank you for letting me into your home. Now I’m ready to go.” 

Christine: “Okay, bye.” 

Em: “I just need one, one piece of evidence.” Um, but they all stayed– 

Christine: But again I think it’s the least scary thing for some reason. Like if you’re gonna like, I don’t know, lure someone into a ghostly experience, I feel like hearing people having an enjoyable time and clinking glasses in the other room is like the least– 

Em: That’s true. 

Christine: –threatening one. 

Em: Especially when you’re like a kid, you know. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: You’re just like, “Oh, it just sounds like a party, like–” 

Christine: Yeah, “it sounds like Mom and Dad invited friends over.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. Um, so they, they were hearing a cocktail party go on, and later that night, they ended up seeing a shitload of apparitions. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: They saw a man in a white robe. 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: They saw another man– 

Christine: It was their dad being like, “Go to bed! How many times do have I to tell? You’re keeping your mother up!” 

Em: [laughs] They also saw a man in a striped shirt. And then the rest of the apparitions they saw apparently were all outlines– 

Christine: Ew. 

Em: –but in– but inside were– was smoke. 

Christine: [gasps] Weird. 

Em: And apparently– 

Christine: Hey, that reminds me of the heatwave ones– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like the kind of squiggly– 

Em: And also in my mind, if it’s like a gambling haul and a brothel– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –then it’s like– that’s a lot of cigarette smoke and– 

Christine: Great point! So much smoke. Yeah. 

Em: Um, so these smoky entities – one of them sat in a chair near them and f– just stared at the fireplace. Which I would love to know if a fire was actually cooking in that fireplace ’cause it’d be even eerier if it just stared at an empty fireplace. 

Christine: Just a bla– I mean, I’m sorry I imagine the kids were not alone with a big fireplace full of a fire. Maybe they were. I don’t know. Um, but yeah, imagine that darkened fireplace where there once was a fire, and someone’s like standing there with their– Eugh! Ew! 

Em: Another one, uh, leaned on the wall and just stared at the kids. 

Christine: Good. 

Em: And then another one walked right past them while they were sitting on the couch and sat on the coffee table that was next to them. And I don’t know– 

Christine: Wow, this is a busy fucking joint. 

Em: And also they’re like so all up in your fucking business. 

Christine: They are– have zero shame. 

Em: One of the kids was then followed around by an apparition for the rest of the night– 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: –wearing formal attire, including a glowing white shirt. 

Christine: Eugh, I don’t like that ’cause that– The stuff that went on here, I don’t like that they’re following kids around. 

Em: And, by the way, this one was female, so they were following around– I don’t– 

Christine: Oh! Wait, the girl– Or the kid or the ghost? 

Em: The– No, no, no. The one that was being followed now was a girl. 

Christine: Shit. I knew it. Of course. 

Em: And she was, I’m assuming, young. I, I didn’t mean like female like, “she was a female,” but you– She was a– I don’t know if she was a girl or a woman or a kid. I don’t know what age she was. 

Christine: Right, right, right. 

Em: Um, but I’m assuming she was a young-looking girl, young enough to be trafficked, you know. 

Christine: And she got in– Somebody was attaching to her or getting– She was getting noticed by something. 

Em: Yes, yes. 

Christine: Yuck. Yuck, yuck. 

Em: Um, one of the creepier ones to me is that this same kid who had the sleepover – uh, at different times, he also would see a ghost throughout the house, uh, throughout the years of a 14-year-old boy – just like the son who died on the property before they moved in. 

Christine: Mm. Shit. 

Em: In fact, one time a family friend was visiting and saw a 14-year-old boy in the kitchen listening in on the phone conversation of Mrs. Gregory, of Ginny Gregory. So like you– 

Christine: [gasps] A little, little sneaky boy. 

Em: So like back in the day when there were landlines, if you– This is for people who maybe don’t know how landline phones work. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, but when the whole house shared one phone, uh, or one line at least, there would be phones throughout the house that was all connected to the same line. So if someone was on– 

Christine: And Em and I had a SpongeBob phone, obviously. 

Em: A-and so if someone had– If someone was on a phone call, if you picked up another phone in another room you could hear them. You could hear the conversation going on. 

Christine: Right. Right, right. 

Em: Um, and so that was how a lot of us would snoop on each other. 

Christine: And they could hear you if you brea– if you breathed really loud. You have to be super, super fucking quiet. 

Em: Yeah, but that’s how a lot of people would snoop on each other where if you– You would just listen in on people’s phone calls if you just grabbed a phone from another room and listen in. 

Christine: Man, those were the good old days, huh? 

Em: That’s– My mom used to grab a phone from another room and listen in on me talking to like my first boyfriend when I was in fifth grade. Like– 

Christine: LOL. I would’ve also done that. In fact, if I go back– if I figure out time travel, I will go back and just sit with your mom and listen to you talk to your first boyfriend ’cause I think that would be really an enjoyable experience. 

Em: It was basically me telling him to– 

Christine: –to keep his hands off. 

Em: –give me food. Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “Go over there, but I want your mom to bring me McDonald’s.” 

Christine: “Get tacos for me.” The end. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. Um, anyway. So apparently this friend visiting saw a 14-year-old boy holding a phone up and like was obviously eavesdropping on somebody having a phone conversation. 

Christine: That’s hilarious. 

Em: And so the friend scolded him and was like, “I don’t know who you are but like you– Like get off the phone. You’re not allowed to eavesdrop in this house.” And apparently this 14-year-old, whoever he was, he seemed completely unfazed by being yelled at by this adult, put the phone down, and just walked right out of the house. And when– 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: And when Ginny hung up the phone and came back in to talk to her friend, the friend was like, “Ginny, some 14-year-old boy was like listening in on your phone call.” 

Christine: Yeah, he– Yeah. 

Em: And Ginny, I guess, had a picture, like a newspaper clipping or something, from the 14-year-old boy who died, and the friend was like, “That was him.” 

Christine: She’s like, “Not this motherfucker again. This teenager keeps harassing our family.” 

Em: But also if you’re a 14-year-old and you’re like stuck on a property, of course you’re going to start listening in on people’s phones. But– 

Christine: What else are you gonna do? 

Em: I love that he probably doesn’t need an actual landline phone like to haunt something– 

Christine: To listen? 

Em: –but he– 

Christine: You could probably just stand there and listen. Yeah. 

Em: Or maybe that says something about him being connected to the literal property, ’cause if he didn’t have the phone with him, he could only hear Ginny’s side. Maybe he actually wanted to hear the outside world talking back to Ginny. 

Christine: Ohh. Oh! Oooh. That’s dark. 

Em: Anyway. 

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Em: Over the years, the Gregorys, uh, thought about demolishing the property. I think they thought they were gonna like put a new property on there instead or they were gonna, uh, lease it out or something. But– I don’t know if the ghosts were involved in them wanting to demolish the property. But it never followed through, and eventually the house was damaged from a hurricane which is why the family ultimately left, but it was still under their name. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So even though they moved out, it was their property. But curious locals at this point had heard all the rumors, and so they started trespassing and vandalizing the property. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: And after being vacant for a year, this one guy who– They had some people come in who like, if they asked permission, would do like ghost hunts in there or seances or whatever, ’cause it was just an empty property at this point. 

Christine: They were just like, “I guess so. Go ahead, yeah.” 

Em: Well, one guy show shows up, and he’s a parapsychologist and also a Baptist minister– 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: –named Dr. Bubar. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And he asked the Gregorys if he could host a seance. When he did, apparently he spoke to a girl named Flossie– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: And Flossie, uh, I guess, told them during the seance that she was trafficked and killed here. 

Christine: Oh gosh. 

Em: Bubar, apparently, can also like be possessed by the spirits, and he was speaking on behalf of Flossie. 

Christine: Channeling? Channeling her? 

Em: Channeling. He was channeling her, yes. And apparently Flossie was saying, because he said, “He shot me. I’m sick. I’m corroded. My body is full of holes.” 

Christine: [gasps] Oy vey. That is unsettling. 

Em: Sick. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, Bubar then said other spirits coming, uh, forward were taken from New Orleans. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: That’s how the, the people that ran this place were able to find them is that they were brought over from New Orleans. 

Christine: Oh shit. 

Em: Apparently, some of the spirits coming forward were also saying that they had died in the upstairs bathroom, probably from botched abortions. 

Christine: Oh, for god’s sake. 

Em: And one person who attended the seance said that while he was channeling these spirits, this second witness, um, saw the tables moving by themselves in the house. 

Christine: Oh boy. 

Em: So during, uh, the seance, Bubar mentions a few times that the spirits will never be free until a fire destroys the house and then like predicted a house fire. He was like, “Eventually, this place is gonna be on fire, and then the spirits will be free.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Not long after the house catches on fire. 

Christine: No way. 

Em: And this is like a few months later, I think. And– There’s a house fire. The building is essentially destroyed, which is why it’s no longer there. And interestingly, this fire happened after another group had just performed a seance in the house, so people think maybe it was that seance, maybe this guy’s prediction was right. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But firefighters on the scene said that the fire looked suspicious. And they couldn’t prove anything, but it was suspicious. And– 

Christine: They found a, uh, a, Baptist minister’s robe nearby. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yes, he ran nude through the burning building. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: So, uh, as you predicted, they told, uh– Bubar eventually found out about this, and he was like, “Oh, the place caught on fire? Interesting.” 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And he seemed weirdly happy about it. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: He said he was weirdly happy because the spirits were finally free, but it feels fishy. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Fast forward a few years, and Bubar is convicted on four federal arson charges. 

Christine: No! 

Em: After– 

Christine: You’re shitting me. You’re shitting me! 

Em: After predicting another location, which he previously worked at, would be destroyed. 

Christine: No! Oh my god. What a cover though for an arsonist. 

Em: Yeah, to be like, “I predict–“ 

Christine: To be a seance ho– I mean, how– What the fuck? That’s crazy. 

Em: Also I wonder if he just finds haunted dilapidated places that are going under anyway– 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: –so that way he can like get his fix. 

Christine: But to be a– Already a minister? Like he’s gone through a lot to get to a point where he can just go in, hold a seance, and be like, “It’ll catch fire. Let me get my matches.” 

Em: Yeah. Yeah. 

Christine: Holy shit. That’s crazy. 

Em: I wonder how much of it was a ruse and how much of it just like– 

Christine: [gasps] Right? 

Em: –they held hands and you know. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: But yeah, apparently he like also– There was, uh, one article about how he threatened like– Or he, he claimed that there would be a bombing at some point at like a, a plant– 

Christine: Okay. Alright. 

Em: –and then he ended up somehow being involved in that before the bombing happened. 

Christine: Are you serious? Okay, so this is like a serial killer or something. He’s just like getting his rocks off on this, I guess. Sounds like. 

Em: He– It’s a– Yeah, so because of this, it’s never been confirmed about the Cahill Mansion, but it’s speculated that he’s involved in that fire. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And because of that though, a lot of people now don’t believe any of the stories o– of the Cahill Mansion because they think, “Well, obviously, he faked his parts, maybe the Gregorys are faking their part, and–“ So they i– 

Christine: Right, it kinda like lends incredibility to the whole thing. Like it’s– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So, uh– 

Christine: That’s a bummer. 

Em: –if all that stuff really did happen though and the Gregorys now like by proxy are now not believed is wild. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, but others believe that it’s very haunted. And in 1989, a new house was built on the property, but there’s no information on if it’s haunted, but i– 

Christine: 1989. So it, so it burned– It did burn like all the way down? 

Em: In like 1970, yeah. 

Christine: [gasps] Wow. 

Em: And then it was, I think, a vacant lot for a while, um, and then in 1989, a new house was built. So, uh, 10 Kimball Drive or whatever does still exist, but it is a private residence and maybe not haunted, so do not go there. 

Christine: I cannot believe this motherfucker did that. 

Em: I know. 

Christine: I mean, I guess we don’t technically know, but like– Jesus. 

Em: And it’s also– That’s wild that it’s the most shocking part when it’s like we’ve always wanted an explanation for any part of my stories, and now that we’ve– 

Christine: For sure. 

Em: –and now that we’ve got one, we’re like, “I can’t believe it.” It’s like– 

Christine: For sure. It’s like– Well, well, but to be honest, I feel like every time people like kind of brush that shit under the rug, like any real kind of evidence, concrete evidence, is like, “Well, but it’s probably still a ghost.” This time it’s like, “Oh no, this motherfucker was like an arson– like a known arsonist.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Well, uh, you know if we ever wanted to Marvel Cinematic Universe this and you wanted to cover him as a true crime, his name is David Bubar. 

Christine: I was gonna say– I can’t believe it. I can’t believe it. I’m gonna google that. Hold on. [typing on computer] David Bubar. 

Em: And if you type in “arson”, I think his articles about him come up. 

Christine: [scoffs] Here we go – You Are Psychic: The Incredible Story of David Bubar. Is that his name? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: [reading from book summary] “A former Baptist minister who is now a full-time professional psychic.” 

Em: [laughs] And felon. Or– 

Christine: Hey– 

Em: And criminal. 

Christine: Hey. Yeah, this is weird. Did he actually go to jail? 

Em: Uh, I think so. I mean, he was convicted. 

Christine: Wow. I’m very intrigued about this. I’m very intrigued. Uh, okay. Well, I’ll look into it later ’cause we don’t have the time today. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. 

Christine: That’s because, Em, I’m doing part two of my story. 

Em: Very excited. 

Christine: Do you need an intermission before we start part two? 

Em: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: Okay, great.

Christine’s Story – Jaycee Lee Dugard Part 2

Christine: This is part two of the kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard.

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: The last thing I told you– Which– Em and I recorded yesterday; everybody else heard this, you know, a week ago. Uh, but basically, Terry and her mom [sighs] had both been looking up at the moon separately. They– Terry had no idea that her own daughter Jaycee was alive, looking at the moon just like she was, 150 miles away after being kidnapped. And it would be 18 years before they saw each other again, and Jaycee would have to survive the unthinkable to make it back home to her family. That was the last thing I said. If you have not listened to part one, please do because this will not make sense to you otherwise. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Uh, and let’s get into part two. Okay. Or do you have any questions, Em, before I get going? 

Em: No, I’m good. 

Christine: Okay. Cool. So in the coming years– Again, Terry obviously has no idea that her own daughter’s still alive. She can hope, but she doesn’t know, and most people presume she has died by now. In the passing years, Terry, who is the mom, continued to speak to the press and plead with Jaycee’s abductor to bring her home. She would say to the cameras things like, “Please don’t hurt her, she’s a good girl. She’ll do anything you ask her, just don’t hurt her.” Authorities searched on horseback through all of the nearby woods with no idea how far away Jaycee really was. People considered like maybe some ransom scheme, like somebody was trying to get money out of this, but no demands ever came in. Um, some people were suggesting the “child replacement” theory that like a family wanted a child– 

Em: Oh, right. 

Christine: –and like, you know, abducted her to– 

Em: I didn’t know that’s what it was called. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s called the– What did I say? 

Em: Child replacement theory? 

Christine: Yes, child replacement theory. Thank you. [unintelligible] 

Em: I didn’t know there was a name to it. 

Christine: Yeah, child replacement theory– And it’s like that idea that we’ve seen on like SVU and stuff where a parent who’s desperate for a child will take somebody else’s and kind of replace them as their own. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, investigators also compared Jaycee’s case to other abductions in the region, such as the 1988 kidnapping of 9-year-old Michaela Garecht. Now, this is a very dark story as well. This is like a crime story within a crime story. Um, Michaela and her best friend, Katrina– This is also, by the way, three years before Jaycee was abducted. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So we’re in 1988, and nearby, uh, three years before Jaycee was ever abducted, Michaela and her best friend, Katrina, rode their scooters to the corner store on a Saturday [emphasized] morning– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –morning, daytime, in late 1988. And it’s horrible because I’ve seen interviews with her mother– with Michaela’s mother– And apparently, it was the first time she, she allowed her daughter to leave the house alone. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: The guilt – I can’t imagine. 

Christine: Like with a friend, and she said, “Fine, It’s just a few buildings away.” Like literally the end of the block. Like I’m not trying to scare everybody, but it is such an alarming thing. Like the end of the block, the corner store, and she said, “Fine, you can go with your friend with your scooters.” 

Em: I think this is another reason why I refuse to be a parent where I’m just like– 

Christine: It’s so scary. 

Em: I just know that I– I mean, I was raised by a helicopter parent. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I know I’m capable of it. I– 

Christine: You just, you just have to be so good at compartmentalizing like I am. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] Ahh. 

Em: Ugh, terrifying. 

Christine: So what happened to Michaela is that she and Katrina left their scooters by the door of the corner store while they went inside to buy candy. And when they came out, one of the scooters was missing. So Michaela looks around, and she sees her own scooter next to a parked car on the ground. 

Em: Okay… 

Christine: And she tells Katrina, “Let me go grab it.” So Katrina goes to her scooter, and she was also interviewed, and she’s like, “I just walked over to my scooter, and as I was like about to, you know, turn around, I heard Michaela screaming.” 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: “And when I turned–“ This man had like apparently put the scooter next to his car– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –so that she would approach the vehicle. He grabbed her, shoved her into his car. She was kicking and screaming but, of course, too small to get away. The man tossed her in, got back, and sped off. First of all, so traumatic for everybody involved. Katrina ran back into the store who– to tell them what happened. They called 911, and Katrina described the man– Again, this is the middle of the day on a Saturday. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Katrina described the man and his vehicle to police who mobilized immediately to try and find her. Her mother was sure like this would be figured out quickly. It just happened. Like, “I let her out of the door–“ Apparently, she turned and said, “I love you, Mommy,” and she said, “I love you, Michaela.” And that was the last conversation they ever had. 

Em: [sighs] Oh. 

Christine: And her mother was like, “Surely she’ll be found.” But three years passed, and she was still missing when Jaycee was kidnapped. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: So now when Jaycee’s kidnapped, police are like, “Well, shit. These might be related,” right? Like this is– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: By the way, if you see photos of the two girls, they look so similar. Like this kind of– Same age, blonde little girls. Uh, kind of same just running around on their scooter, you know. And although Michaela disappeared in Hayward, which was three hours from South Lake Tahoe, uh, there was a lot, a lot of similarities. So the, the– Like I said, they were both same age, both blonde, both kidnapped in the middle of broad daylight, uh, in front of multiple witnesses. And there were no ransom notes, no leads. And so this seemed like a very similar case basically. And like Jaycee, Michaela had completely vanished off the face of the earth, so they’re thinking these must be related somehow. Investigators searched for any connection between the girls, like maybe they knew the same like family friend who was a known offender or there was some other connection, um, but they found nothing. 

In fact, Jaycee was being taken, uh, from Hayward toward Antioch, California, which they had no idea at the time, which was 170 miles away from home. And after like– So now we’re gonna do like a little, um, perspective shift. So we’re going back to Jaycee now because I’ve already revealed the, um, plot twist that she’s actually alive. So from her perspective, what had happened is after she was pulled into the car at her bus stop– Remember she had two abductors, a man and a woman. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: The abductors shoved her to the floor and covered her with a blanket and heavy objects to keep her down. 

Em: [sighs] Oh. 

Christine: And, of course, still res– recovering from the initial result, which, if you recall, included a fucking taser. Like they literally tased her. 

Em: Yeah, they stun-gunned her. 

Christine: Stun-gunned her. And still shaken obviously from that, she was already disoriented and in pain, and then underneath the blanket, she started to overheat, especially because they’re like loading her with heavy objects and driving several hours. And, um, she thought– fought the urge to throw up because she was afraid– As this little girl, she was like– she already knew if she threw up, she wouldn’t– she would choke on it. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: Like she wouldn’t be able to turn her head to– It’s just so fucking horrific. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Um, and eventually she ended up losing consciousness, so when she w– 

Em: Yeah, I mean– 

Christine: Yeah, like– 

Em: I– Clock out. Yeah. 

Christine: At that point, more is going to– I know. It’s horrible. When she woke up, one of her abductors uncovered her face and offered her a drink, and he told her he got an extra straw so she wouldn’t have to use his straw. Wow, that’s so– 

Em: Oh, the consideration is out of control. 

Christine: That’s so fucking kind of you. He laughed and told the other abductor, the woman, he couldn’t believe he’d gotten away with it. 

Em: [gasps] Oh my god. Sick. 

Christine: Imagine witnessing that. 

Em: Sick. 

Christine: Soon they got back on the road, and Jaycee drifted off again until they reached their final destination, which she heard the abductors call “home.” So she knew now like this was their home. 

Em: And now your fucking home. 

Christine: And now your fucking home. Exactly. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: When they arrived, the man who had attacked Jaycee with the stun gun told her he had very big, very aggressive dogs and she had to stay very close to him and be quiet or else they would attack her. 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: He covered her head with a blanket, led her into a house where he took off all her clothes and made her shower with him. 

Em: [gasps] You know that shower wasn’t a shower. 

Christine: This is horrible. Horrible. 

Em: There’s no way that he just stood next to her. 

Christine: No, no. No. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: No, he didn’t. Then he moved Jaycee to a small soundproof shed in the yard with a pile of blankets on the floor for a bed and a single window that had been covered by a towel. The room was barely ventilated at all. It was unbearably hot. And he handcuffed Jaycee there and left her alone for hours every single day, only occasionally returning to bring her fast food and a bucket to use as a toilet. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: In the weeks following the abduction, Jaycee depended on her abductor completely, down to just the most basic needs. She couldn’t eat, drink, or even pee without him stepping in to help. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: So there’s like this emotional dependency that she developed, especially as a child, on this person– 

Em: Yeah, how old is she again? 

Christine: –who’s the only one who feeds her. 

Em: How old was she again? 

Christine: She was 11. 

Em: 11. 

Christine: Yeah, so she’s very little, and, and now like her only means of survival is this treacherous man who grabbed her. So she’s in this shed, and of course, it’s not just lonely, it’s also mind-numbingly boring. She only has her thoughts. She doesn’t even know where she is or what’s going on. Um, and again, being 11, she tried to track time by the days and nights, but she could only see like through a towel-covered window like when the sun went down, so she was like almost guessing at how many days were passing. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And Jaycee’s abductor ended up becoming her only connection to the world, and his visits were the only like interesting thing that ever happened. 

Em: Yeah, which like the, the– I can’t imagine the mental– 

Christine: It’s like a mindfuck. 

Em: –the mental gymnastics of like weirdly getting excited to see someone– 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: –just because– I’m assuming, but I’d be like, “Oh, if it’s the most interesting thing that’s happening today, you almost–“ 

Christine: It’s at least a break in the monotony. Yes. 

Em: But then as soon as he’s there, you’re like, “Oh, fuck. Get away from me.” 

Christine: No, so apparently, despite herself, she started looking forward to his visits because otherwise she’s just sitting in there. And she learned over time that her abductor’s name was Phillip Garrido, and he lear– she learned he was holding her in his own recording studio. 

Em: No. 

Christine: Great, I know. A– There was also a second room attached where he would keep instruments and sound equipment. And he would sometimes [scoffs] have his friends come over to play music, and they would move Jaycee to the house until the friends left and then move her back in. 

Em: Because they knew she’d probably bang on the wall and scream for help. 

Christine: Well, she was in the studio. 

Em: Right, I thought– Oh, oh. I see. I see. I see. I thought the– 

Christine: So they would t-take her out– 

Em: The se– I thought they’d be in the second room, but no, I see what you were saying. 

Christine: Oh, I think that was just where they stored the instruments, but they would like take her out of the studio, have all the friends come over, play music, put the instruments back, and then bring her back. 

Em: Im-imagine being one of his friends and knowing like, “I was in the room that a hostage was in when I wasn’t there.” 

Christine: Finding out? Yeah. And by the way, that is a big pattern in this case, so they’re not the only ones. As time passed, Phillip made what he considered noble improvements, I guess, to her living situation. He got an air conditioner for her, so the room wasn’t so hot. He removed her ha-handcuffs, which, by the way, she said in an interview that he told her they were fuzzy handcuffs so they wouldn’t hurt so much. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: [sucks in breath] And he left a bucket in the shed, so that she could use the bathroom whenever she wanted instead of having to hold it until he got there, which like, this is an 11-year-old child. This is so dark– 

Em: The, the generosity. 

Christine: –darkly upsetting. Phillip told Jaycee that he hadn’t t– that he had taken her because he had a, quote, “problem” and together, she could help him to make sure he didn’t need to hurt anyone else. 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: So now he’s– 

Em: So now it’s up to her to be okay with all this. 

Christine: Exactly. He’s putting this fucking pressure and guilt on her to save other little girls. It’s so sick and twisted. O-of course, as we already probably all suspected, he repeatedly raped Jaycee, all the time. And over time, Jaycee eventually met her second abductor, the woman, Nancy Garrido, who is Phillip’s wife. 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: So to Jaycee, Nancy seemed hesitant to spend any time in the shed, but, of course, Jaycee was like, “Can somebody come talk to me? And can somebody give me any clarity?” And for so long it had only been Phillip, so Phillip told Jaycee to do what she could to befriend his own wife, Nancy. He was like, “Can you just make her more comfortable in here please?” 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: This is so sick. 

Em: Like, “it’s, it’s your fault that she doesn’t feel comfortable in here, so if you could–“ 

Christine: “Yeah, it is your– Y-you’re 11. You should probably make sure that your guest–“ 

Em: “So you should make it more hospitable for her–“ 

Christine: Seriously. 

Em: “–so she wants to hang out with you, ’cause otherwise I’m getting yelled at that she doesn’t like that I have you here.” 

Christine: I mean, really. It’s like– It’s beyond. Months passed, and Nancy did spend more time with Jaycee as Jaycee’s life simultaneously remained like very weirdly routine. Like it was like so unstable but also routine. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Like of course, you don’t know– You’re– Like you kind of know your day-to-day, but you don’t know what the fucking outcome is gonna be. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Phillip also promised Jaycee a cat and ended up getting her several pet cats, but then, over and over again, he would take them away whenever they peed on the floor or he felt they were just like annoying him. He would just get rid of them, which I imagine is like an extra cruel thing– 

Em: [sighs] Uh, for a child. 

Christine: –to a girl who doesn’t have any companions, you know? 

Em: Yeah, like not only is it like in general if you gave a little girl a cat and then ripped him away from her– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –but on top, that it’s like the only thing she has. 

Christine: Th– Exactly. In this very traumatic situation. And he would be like, “Never mind. They’re annoying me,” and get rid of them. Jaycee would continually bond with every new cat he brought. She would teach them tricks. She loved them desperately. This is so sad. They were her friends. They were her only companions. She actually kept a journal about one of the cats, and she would chronicle their months together before Phillip inevitably got rid of the cat. And she had months of just journal e– daily journal entries about how close she was with this cat. 

Jaycee’s only consistent connections were Phillip and Nancy, her two abductors. One time, Phillip was gone for weeks and Nancy had to “care” for Jaycee, and it was a really weird and uncomfortable time. But Phillip finally returned, and life went back to routine. And Jaycee just kind of lived like this. And years ended up passing, and when Jaycee turned 14, she got pregnant because of course that was bound to happen eventually. 

Em: [shaking head sadly] Mm. 

Christine: And she ended up giving birth to a baby girl and went through labor at home with only Phillip and Nancy, who had watched birthing VH– VHS tapes– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: –to prepare. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: And this girl is 14. She doesn’t even– She was abducted when she was 11. She doesn’t even know about sex presumably, let alone being raped, and she doesn’t know– 

Em: Or that’s how babies are made or– 

Christine: Right, like there’s no context for this. And so she’s suddenly giving birth at home with no medication and only her abductors to deliver the babies. Luckily, the baby was healthy, and they both were okay. And Jaycee basically became a full-time mother at age 14. Uh– 

Em: Jesu– Well, there’s nothing else to do. Jesus Christ. 

Christine: Living in this shed. 

Em: Also like, this is a sidebar, but like imagine like the awkward– like it was up to her to make Nancy feel comfortable, and now, all of a sudden, she’s pregnant with Nancy’s husband’s baby. 

Christine: Oh my god. You’re so right. Yuck. 

Em: And also now you’re relying on this person, who now is even more uncomfortable around you, to give birth, to help you give birth to your baby. Like it– It’s just like the dynamics are so fucking crazy. 

Christine: It is. It is. It’s so– such a mindfuck in every way. So when she became a full-time mother, Nancy and Phillip often slept in the other room where they kept the recording equipment– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –to like assist with the baby ’cause I guess they were like concerned enough to, to like care for the baby. I don’t know. 

Em: Well, I think if there was a– I mean, I– Yeah, I guess they have to be. 

Christine: Especially a 14-year-old. Like what are you gonna–? She doesn’t know. Nancy would take the baby outside because Jaycee wasn’t allowed to go outside, right? So the– Nancy would take the baby outside, and, um, you know– 

Em: But who knows what she was doing to the baby? She could have been maybe hurting the baby. 

Christine: Well, she was literally just giving the baby air, and Jaycee was like, “Thank god. Like ’cause now I have at least a little bit of just time to myself, not just watching this baby all by myself.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: They were basically caring for the baby more than they were caring for Jaycee. They were like, “Oh, this baby needs fresh air. This baby needs to be properly slept and fed.” 

Em: So was she used for the couple to have a baby? 

Christine: I don’t think technically. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I think this was just kind of a byproduct of it, and then they– 

Em: ’Cause Nancy seems to be helping quite a lot for– 

Christine: They fell– I think they fell into the role a little bit, you know? Like they were like, “Okay, this is the next natural step. The consequence of what we’ve done.” 

Em: It feels, it feels almost like that movie, The Room. 

Christine: Yes, it f– I’ve been thinking about that the whole time. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, big, big yikes. So Jaycee was relieved occasionally when Nancy would take the baby and like give her some outside fresh air, but when Jaycee was 17 years old (this is three years later), she gave birth to another child. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: So– 

Em: Can you imagine raising two toddlers in a fucking studio? 

Christine: Two babies in a shed. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh, by the way, this place didn’t have electricity for a while, and then, uh, they ended up putting wiring, like wiring from the house to the shed for like kind of half ass electricity. So it’s basically like Room– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –that movie you were talking about. Brie Larson, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, I think The Room is the one the, uh– 

Em: Oh, with Tommy Wiseau. Sorry. 

Christine: Tommy Wiseau, yeah. 

Em: Room. You’re right. 

Christine: Room. No, I get them mixed up. Um, very different vibes– 

Em: Very different vibes. 

Christine: –like probably the most extreme different vibes you could find. Um, but again, she had the second baby, and she and the baby made it through labor safely and delivery all over again. And Phillip ended up building a tall fence around the backyard because he wanted Jaycee to be able to go outside, um, without like being spotted. So he built this fence, and it had been years, I mean, [sighs] six years. So finally, she was able to go outside. She had not been outside in six years. 

Em: I mean, I imagine your muscles are just atrophied. They can’t even get outside. 

Christine: Yeah, what are you gonna do? Like walk around a circle, you know? And she had been out enough to like be transferred to the house and back but not like be able to spend time outside. So she was finally able to spend time outside of her living quarters, and she actually moved into a large tent. And she made this tent like her own as best she could. She homeschooled her daughters. She’s 11– She was 11 when she was abducted. Like her schooling ended at 11, and now– 

Em: Yeah, she has a sixth grade reading level at, at best. 

Christine: Right? Now she’s trying to teach these children how to be children. I mean, it’s just out of control. She was given access to the computer. She researched homeschooling methods, designed lesson plans. She created worksheets for her daughters. Like she was so caring and compassionate and mothering toward her own daughters, even though she was 14 and forced into the role. 

Em: Also like I don’t know if she’s old enough to be thinking about this yet, but is she wondering like do these kids just get to up and leave one day? Or like is she homeschooling them just to also live in a shed with me? 

Christine: I mean, I don’t know. She’s 17. I think she’s just like, “I guess this is my life, and the kids get a better life than I do, like getting to be out and about with the parents, so–“ 

Em: ’Cause I’d be suspicious the second that they were even saying homeschool them when it’s like, well, does that imply that they’re gonna go somewhere and need these skills? Like what– Like I’m surprised that the guy even encouraged that, was just like, “Oh, you have two children that we can’t tell anyone about.” 

Christine: I think, I think kind of like what you said – they sort of tell into the– They sort of– Maybe they weren’t planning it. Maybe they were planning it, but like the– Phillip and his wife, Nancy, got really invested as parents of these little children. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So it’s almost like she fulfilled the role of surrogate as a child– 

Em: Gotcha. 

Christine: –and they kind of took over and acted as though these small children were their own flesh and blood, you know. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So using the computer one day, uh, Jaycee quickly proved that she had a skill for graphic design because she was kind of like helping make these lesson plans. And the thing is Phillip had a printing business where he would design and print business cards and other like freelance items for small businesses. And when he realized that Jaycee could use the computer and do this kind of graphic design, he let her start designing the stuff he would sell. 

Em: Crazy. 

Christine: So often Jaycee thought of her mother. Um, she could not even remember her own mother’s face– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –but she knew looking at her own daughters that they resembled her mom. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Isn’t that so dark? It’s like she would look at them and go, “They remind me of my mom even though I can’t really put my finger on why or what it is about my kids that look like my mom.” 

Em: Yeah, something in your memory gets triggered when they do something. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, she said like, “I didn’t know if it’s her– their nose, their laugh– Like I couldn’t figure out what it was, but something reminded me of my mother.” And she knew actually that she could look for her mother online at any time. 

Em: I was gonna say like i-is this guy unaware of the internet? Like how is he– That was such a risky thing to just trust her. 

Christine: She– I know. I think she j– she just– 

Em: Maybe, maybe it was the, the narcissist thing? Like, “Oh, I’ve gotten away with everything else so far”? 

Christine: Yeah, and it sort of worked. She was just so like under his thumb and now had these two children to care for. And this– She was like, “It’s been almost half my life. Like this is just how I live now.” And you know, there’s that like mindfuck of, “Oh, well would anyone even care? Does anybody even want me anymore?” You know? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And so she just couldn’t get herself to go there. And like if she left, where would she go? Is her mom even around? Like who would take care of the little girls? And there was just a lot of, I think, emotional turmoil there. And Phillip and Nancy, of course, had done their best to raise her to believe the outside world was dangerous and terrifying and nobody wanted her and everybody was glad she was gone, you know. All just the mental mindfuckery that like you tell a child to make them convinced you’re their only connection to the world. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And she was like, “Oh my god. I have these two little girls now. I’m so scared to even leave with them and i-impose the worl– At least here I know what they’re gonna get.” 

Em: Right. 

Christine: “And I don’t know–“ It’s kind of like Room. Like “I don’t know what’s waiting for us outside of this– these four walls.” 

Em: Also might ju– She might have been like, “I don’t know what’s gonna happen, but at least we’re killing time.” Like there’s– 

Christine: Yes. “At least we’re like surviving and eating, you know? And we love each other–“ I mean, the– her and the kids. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So eventually Jaycee was allowed to go on short trips with Nancy like to go thrift shopping for clothes or buy some groceries. They didn’t have a lot of money. Um, but she went by the name– Now, I’ve heard Larrissa or Allissa. I’ve heard like both, so I don’t know which one it really was. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But they basically changed her name. And once Jaycee accidentally left her purse in another aisle while they shopped. And, uh, she went back, and it had been stolen. And this kind of like confirmed to her, “Oh, well, the outside world is scary because–“ 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: “–I left my purse in one spot. It got stolen.” And they were like, “See? This is what happens when you leave the house. Like people are criminals.” 

Em: So they were able to trap her like to a point where she almost wanted to be trapped or– 

Christine: Yes, exactly. 

Em: –that’s what she thought. Yeah. 

Christine: And she thought like nobody else was going to give her the time of day. Like if they’re out just stealing her purse, who’s gonna care that she was kidnapped? She also feared like “what would happen to my daughters if I left them?” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Like, “would they be harmed in replacement of me?” You know, it just– There was so much turmoil there. And in the years since Jaycee’s abduction, Phillip – [scoffs] oy vey – had become fiercely religious. 

Em: Of course. 

Christine: He– Of course. 

Em: Well, he was only one step aw-away from being a full cult leader, so. 

Christine: Well, get ready. You’re on to something. Because he read the Bible often. He would lecture them on its contents and what he believed were the messages. He said he had prayed to God to never hurt his daughters and that he had been “cured” of his “problem,” if you recall. 

Em: Oh! Well, then release me. [scoffs] Like, okay. 

Christine: Yeah, precisely. When he and Jaycee ever chafed or he failed to keep a commitment to Jaycee, he often blamed his behavior on outside forces, like “the Angels.” He said, “Oh, it’s not my fault. It’s like the Angels’ fault,” which like now you know he’s losing it. 

Em: Fully. 

Christine: Uh– Yeah. She was often resentful of Phillip because she would school the girls all day, basically start running the printing business he operated, and if she ever tried to address him about the issues, he would just blame the Angels. He’d be like, “Sorry, they’re just not letting me have enough time.” 

Em: I can’t wait to start using that on you now. I’m just, “Oh, well.” 

Christine: “I’m sorry. It’s the Angels.” [laughs] 

Em: “You know how it is.” 

Christine: Oh, I sure do. Um, he– Hey, get this, Em. He attempted to start his own church, so you definitely called it. Uh– 

Em: All, all you need is a controlling person who already has taken slaves, uh– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –to get involved in religion and– 

Christine: And fi– and decide that– 

Em: –realize that he’s the prophecy. 

Christine: –and– A narcissist– Yes, exactly. And so he told people he knew that he could speak to angels, who are apparently always preventing him from taking a lunch break. You know those angels. And– 

Em: Those pesky fucking angels, I’ll tell ya. 

Christine: [laughs] Those pesky angels. And he said he was about to change the world. 

Em: Yuck. 

Christine: Now, I can’t wait to tell you how he got caught. 

Em: [laughs] I can’t wait either. I know it’s gonna be something really stupid. I know it– 

Christine: Oh, it’s so fucking dumb, Em. 

Em: I, I think it’s, uh, an absolute cause and effect of his narcissism. What. 

Christine: Amen. 

Em: What. 

Christine: Hallelujah. You’re right. 

Em: What, he had a billboard that said, “I can do anything, even take someone hostage, and you wouldn’t even notice”? 

Christine: I mean, you might as well. Right? ’Cause in 2009, Phillip walked into the UC Berkeley Police Department– 

Em: [sighs, shaking their head] 

Christine: –bringing with him Jaycee’s daughters, and spoke to a police officer who was head of security at UC Berkeley and also in charge of s– Well, she– I don’t know if she was special– uh, head of security, but she was in charge of special events on campus. So she was in charge of security of like any events they were holding. And Phillip said, “I would like to host an event here at UC Berkeley promoting my church.’ 

Em: Oh god. Okay. 

Christine: And Lisa Campbell, who was interviewed, was like, “Listen, I don’t– I’m like really busy–“ 

Em: Wait, Kimball? 

Christine: Campbell. 

Em: Campbell. I was like, “Oh, synchronicity for us.” 

Christine: Close though. 

Em: So she said, “No, I’m busy”? [laughs] I love that. 

Christine: She was like, “I’m like really busy, but okay. What’s your like pitch?” And she started to become concerned as he talked about the two girls he was with ’cause she’s like, “This is just a– Something is off.” Right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: She asked him to come back the next day, which I think is so smart. She was like, “Hey, why don’t you come back, and you can give me more detail?” So in the meantime, Lisa told police officer Ally Jacobs– 

Em: Good job. 

Christine: –“Hey–“ Yes. “These– This guy and these girls came in. Something seemed off, and they’re coming back tomorrow.” And so Lisa’s like, “I’m in. I’ll be there.” So Phillip returns, and he brings with him a book that he said he wrote and needed to be shared with the world. [unintelligible mumbling] 

Em: I guarantee it was like on like a notepad or something or like a– 

Christine: So embarrassing. 

Em: –like on a, a Microsoft document. 

Christine: He like figured out MS Paint. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. Like so embarrassing. And so, of course, Lisa and Ally are like, “Alright. We have this guy’s name now. Let’s look into him: Phillip Garrido.” They look into him. He has this fucking rap sheet of the century. He’s on parole for kidnapping and rape. They contact his parole officer to be like, “Hey, this motherfucker came by and says he has this manifesto or whatever.” 

Em: Did he forget like how the police system works? Like did he for– 

Christine: I mean, I think it’s just like you said. Like some people are so narcissistic that they think they’re just one step ahead of everyone else. 

Em: H– Did he just think like, “there’s no way they would look me up in the system?” 

Christine: I guess he just thought like he’s such a savior of the world that like it doesn’t matter? I don’t know. 

Em: I mean– I don’t know. I don’t know. ’Cause ev– 

Christine: There’s like no– 

Em: Eventually wasn’t he gonna have to like– if he really wanted to open a church, wouldn’t he have to like file and like wouldn’t people like look into him? I mean– 

Christine: I mean, I think he would probably just assume– If he’s this far gone, he’d probably just assume like, “Oh, this is part of my church now.” 

Em: Well, the Angels would protect him, so. 

Christine: Right, exactly. Like, “the Angels told me to do it.” I don’t know. There’s probably so many reasons he could come up with. But either way, they like contacted his parole officer and were telling him the whole story, and the parole officer was like, “Wait, wait, wait. Who was he with?” And they said, “Oh, well, Phillip came with two girls he introduced as his daughters.” And the parole officer was like, “Phillip does not have any children. Like we visit him every month, and I know he doesn’t have children. So this is fishy.” 

Em: So either he’s kidnapped them or he’s got a big secret. 

Christine: He’s either lying or something’s going on. So he called Phillip in for a meeting, and Phillip showed up this time with Jaycee. To meet his parole officer. 

Em: This is beautiful. I mean, I mean like– 

Christine: It’s insane. 

Em: –obviously this is a real person’s story, so in that way, I’m like, “Holy shit. I feel so bad for her.” 

Christine: But like– 

Em: But also while I’m just paying attention to him being a narcissistic piece of shit– 

Christine: A fucking dumbass. 

Em: –this is, this is art. This is– 

Christine: Exactly. Exactly. He’s walking right into it. Thank god. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So this time when he was asked about the children, he said they were his nieces and that he didn’t know how to get in touch with his brother, who was actually their father. And in another room, of course, they separated Jaycee, and they asked her like, “What’s your involvement with Phillip and the girls?” And, uh, she kind of like kept changing the story. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like I don’t think she knew what she was supposed to say. And, of course, they were like, “Uh, hold on to that thought. We’re gonna go back to Phillip real quick.” So they go back to Phillip, and they’re like, “We have a few more questions.” And they kept him for a few hours, and then finally, he just full-on confessed and said, “That– That’s actually Jaycee. I kidnapped her 18 years ago.” 

Em: It’s wild how quick they crumble. 

Christine: It barely took any pressure. It barely took any pressure. Just crumbled. 

Em: Which like– Yeah, I don’t know which one I want: for him to crumble or him to try. But like– 

Christine: But the craziest part is like it’s been 18 years. So it’s like I wonder if it’s just been so long that he kinda g– doesn’t have the energy for it anymore. 

Em: Or maybe like she had served his– her purpose to him? 

Christine: Right, and he’s over it? Like I don’t know what the deal is, but he basically crumbled right away and said– 

Em: Maybe he’s like, “I don’t want to deal with these kids. My wife has hated me for 18 years ’cause I brought a girl home.” 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: “And maybe– I– It’s better to just go to jail so I don’t have to deal with anybody.” 

Christine: “I might as well just give it all–“ 

Em: “’Cause everyone else is a problem.” 

Christine: “–give it all up now.” Uh, and I mean, the fact that it was 18 fucking years. So he finally admits it, and the officers tell Jaycee she needs– So they go back to Jaycee, right? And they’re like, “Okay. Phillip just told us that your name is not Allison. It’s Jaycee. And you were kidnapped 18 years ago.” And they said, “Hey, you need to r– You need to tell us your name. You need to confirm your identity.” And she had not spoken her own name out loud in so many years that she had to write it down. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: And think about this. She hadn’t probably written her name since she was 11. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Or like at least not owned her own name, you know, since she was 11. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Outside of maybe a diary. So Phillip and Nancy were arrested. Jaycee and her daughters were taken into protective custody, and suddenly, on what was like just an average day in her fucking turmoil of a life of just being trapped, suddenly she was free. Which also like when– what you were saying, why after all this time? It’s like why did he bring her to the police station? Like he must have had some inclination to give himself up, right? Like why else would he bring Jaycee? 

Em: Maybe or– No, I, I would think that he’s just like such a narcissist that he got away with the kids yesterday, so now let’s even push the stakes even further this time and take her. I don’t know. I feel like– 

Christine: But like do you know for what? Like for like just the kicks or like–? 

Em: I think just the k– I would think it was just the kicks. Just like– 

Christine: ’Cause like a parole officer? It feels like the last person that you wanna– I mean, I guess. Yeah. Maybe he just was like– 

Em: I think after 18 years of having that kind of like disgusting confidence like you are really pushing– 

Christine: I guess so. Yeah. 

Em: You’re pushing it every time. Like I think you just like the risk at that point. 

Christine: I mean, you’re right. And it probably is so warped at this point. Like 18 years of just getting away with like this. And, by the way, I forget if this is in the notes or not, but important point: many parole officers came by because this was part of checking in on their parolee. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And they came by often, and there were reports of children in the yard. There were reports from neighbors saying, “We’re worried. There’s this girl there. There’s a little kid.” And parole officers asked, “Who are those kids?” And he said, “Oh, they’re just like my nieces.” And they just let it be. So there were so many times over the 18 years where it could have been caught. You know what I mean? 

Em: I can’t imagine the amount of people who could look back now and go, “I could have done something,” without even knowing that they could have done something. 

Christine: [sighs] The pain of that must be so unreal. Like 18 years is– 

Em: Out of control. 

Christine: –unfathomable. Yeah. 

Em: Out– It’s, it’s literally a whole, a whole person. 

Christine: You can’t fathom– No, and she was 11 when she was kidnapped. So, I mean, un– unreal. 

Em: So she was how old when this happened then? 18 plus 11, so 30– 29? 

Christine: Yeah, so she was just about 30, I believe. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Yeah. Uh– 

Em: Imagine starting your life now. 

Christine: With two children. 

Em: With two kids. 

Christine: Well, imagine being a child and then skipping all the way, you know what I mean, to being like your mother’s age basically. Like it, it’s– 

Em: With, with also 18 years of like insane trauma. 

Christine: Well, also– Right. I wish it was skipping, right? But it’s not skipping. It’s just that, that dark, dark period of trauma. So the police contacted Terry and told her (this is her mom) told her, “Hey, your daughter’s alive,” which the shock– 

Em: I ca– Again, imagine that. Yeah. 

Christine: “And guess what? You also have two granddaughters.” Like the shock of that because– 

Em: I would– I wouldn’t believe them at first. 

Christine: No. 

Em: I’d be like, “You have the wrong person.” 

Christine: The way that they described having to come to terms with the idea that she was probably dead. Like how on earth could she still be alive after 18 years? You know, statistically and otherwise. And the fact that she called and said, “Not only is your daughter here with us right now, and you can see her. She also has two children.” Your 11-year-old, you know? It’s just so trippy. And so of course, Jaycee was afraid. Like she hadn’t seen her family since she was 11. What if they couldn’t accept her daughters? What would they think of her after all these years? And the night before the reunion, she had to somehow figure out– And this is so sad ’cause it’s still on her, even when she’s technically safe. She has to figure out what to tell her daughters. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like how to explain how they ended up here and how she’s gonna have to introduce them to their grandma, why there’s gonna be so many tears and news cameras. I mean, it’s just such a burden. And so she decided she was gonna tell them the truth. She told them she had been taken as a child. But weirdly, both girls seemed to like completely understand and be empathetic, and they were so excited for Jaycee to be able to see her own mommy. Like they were like– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –“You get to see your mommy tomorrow.” Like it’s just– 

Em: How old were they? 

Christine: Um, I would say– I think– You know, if I’m guessing like 13 and 11–? 

Em: Yeah, something like that because if– 

Christine: Because– 

Em: –if she was pregnant by 14 and she’s almost 30– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Mm. 

Em: –so they would be almost 15 or 16 then. 

Christine: Yeah, so they were like teenagers. Yeah. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: And so they were just very empathetic and were just excited for Jaycee to be able to see her mother. Um, and when Jaycee– Jaycee was so terrified. But when she saw her mother and was reunited with her, she described it as feeling whole again. 

Em: It– 

Christine: Terry, of course, had never given up hope that Jaycee would come home, which I don’t think any mother really does or any parent of a missing child really does, but, you know, usually you don’t get that happy ending. Um, Jaycee’s younger sister, Shayna, had grown up– Remember that baby that the stepdad had been like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –more kind to than her? So Shayna, of course, lived her whole life under this shadow of like my older sister– 

Em: This ghost. 

Christine: –the ghost of my sister who went missing. And so now she gets to reunite with baby Shayna who’s now like probably 20, you know. It’s just crazy. 

Em: Mm. I mean, imagine– I– On top of everything else that like, I can’t– I, I don’t know h-how she must have felt, the, um, the mom, Terry, to see granddaughters that are older than the last time you ever saw your daughter. 

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah. The te– The granddaughters are teenagers. 

Em: Like you never even got to– You never got to see your kid as 15, but you’re seeing your grandkids at 15. 

Christine: Oof. Oh. 

Em: [sighs] That had to be so weird ’cause you’re like, “I wonder if this is what my own kid looked like at 15,” you know. 

Christine: I know. Remember– And then she kept saying like, “Oh, I recognize my mom in my own kids, but I don’t know what she looks like.” 

Em: Yeah, so you know Terry recognized her or her daughter in her grandkids, and she’s like, “I have to assume this is what she looked like, and I just missed it.” 

Christine: That must be such a mindfuck to see a kid 18 years later who looks almost like the kid that you lost 18 years ago. Oh my gosh. It’s just so much. It’s so much. And– [sighs] Ohh gosh. Terry said that just days before Jaycee came home, she had gone outside, looked up at the moon, and asked the moon if it knew where Jaycee was. 

Em: [sighs] Wow, she was still looking at the moon after all those years. 

Christine: And Jaycee told her, “I also went outside, looking at the moon, and was also watching it and thinking of you.” 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: They did this a lot, I think. Once she got to be outside, she got to go do what they always did, which was sit on the porch and look at the moon. And now they’re doing it separately. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: In 2011, Phillip Garrido, age 60, was sentenced to 431 years in prison. 

Em: Excellent. Excellent. 

Christine: “Excellentante.” Nancy, who’s 55, received 36 years to life. 

Em: [mimics licking crumbs off each of their fingers in satisfaction] Mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah. Yum, yum, yum. 

Christine: I know, right? No better– Not one year less than 431 years. Jaycee was also awarded a $20 million settlement because of all the parole officers and law enforcement that had missed the fact that she was being held hostage and being used to birth children in the shed. Um, so she was awarded that $20 million settlement. So in 1976, quick backtrack. So this was– Now, we’re in 2011 that he’s been sentenced, right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But in 1976, he had actually kidnapped 25-year-old Katie Callaway Hall, and he had taken her to a storage unit in Nevada where he raped her and held her for hours. And when police showed up at the storage unit by chance and knocked on the door, Katie– So apparently, Phillip had said to her– This was well before he had abducted, um, Jaycee, but he, he told Katie, “Do I have to tie you up? Or are you gonna be quiet?”– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: –when the police showed up at the storage unit. And she said, “I swear I’ll be quiet. I swear I’ll be quiet.” The police show up, and of course, now– And she’s been interviewed in these documentaries as well. And now when the police show up, she goes, “Well, this is my only chance.” 

Em: Yeah, of course. 

Christine: I– There’s no way. It– There’s no other way. So she just fucking runs and starts screaming. And thank god, because they are able to, uh, rescue her, get her out of the situation, which sounds like obviously was not gonna end well. 

Em: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: And Phillip had been sentenced to 50 years in federal prison. And Katie later said in an interview that she had come to believe he was put in her path because she was strong enough to survive and make sure nobody else would ever go through this. 

Em: [sighs] Oh… 

Christine: But he was paroled 11 years later, and then immediately, the Jaycee Dugard thing happened. 

Em: Of course. 

Christine: So– 

Em: Do we ever find out like how he knew Nancy? Like how quick did they end up together after he was paroled? 

Christine: Oh, that’s a really good question actually. 

Em: ’Cause it sounds like she could have also been like a victim or something. Or– I don’t know. I don’t know what her dynamic is. 

Christine: You know– I don’t actually really know the details. She does not get a lot of– 

Em: Play. 

Christine: –description. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t really know. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: That’s a– That’s actually a good question. 

Em: ’Cause it sounds like if she was– if he was paroled and then met her, he– she must have known something of his background or like at least he was in federal prison. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: You know? Like what’s her, what’s her gimmick? And why isn’t she telling on him? And why– So I feel like she was also being threatened behind the scenes and we don’t know that. Or maybe she’s also twisted. I don’t fucking know. 

Christine: Maybe she’s tw– Yeah, who knows? It’s like one of those things where you s– you hear stories of like couples who just unfortunately find each other and– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –end up being like, uh, fuel to each other’s flames, I guess. But yeah, there’s no real, there’s no real clarity. I mean, it says that– 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: –she worked as a nurse’s aid and a physical therapy aid, and she was charged with kidnapping, rape, and false imprisonment and was convicted. So it doesn’t really say much. Um. 

Em: Yeah, I’d love to know her behind the scenes of like why she never fucking called the police on him or something. 

Christine: I’m very curious about that. And, uh, I don’t, I don’t have the answers. I, I wish I had, I wish I had, uh, taken the time to know that. But, um– 

Em: No, you’re good. 

Christine: –I’ll look into it. But so [breathes deeply] in the 18 years that Phillip had– By the way, like imagine this: so he’s already been in prison for 11 years for– Okay, remember when he went into UC Berkeley and said, “I wanna, I wanna showcase my new manifesto/religion.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And they were like, “Let’s just do a quick check,” and find out that this guy had been in prison for abduction and rape. That was for the, the story I just told you about Katie. So he was, uh, paroled after 11 years; and then in the following 18 years, which is when he held Jaycee and her daughters captive, like I was telling you, parole officers and police repeatedly failed at noticing this. And it was not that discreet. Like neighbors would call occasionally and say, “Hey, I’m worried. There are little kids next door in the backyard, and they never seem to like go to school or never seem to have parental supervision. I don’t know who these kids are.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And police would show up and be like, “Who are they?” And he’d go, “My nieces.” And they’d go, “Okay, bye.” You know? And there was just never any– And to think like this guy was in prison for kidnapping and rape of a young girl? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like wouldn’t you think at least this was tipping off– 

Em: No wonder, no wonder she got $20 million. 

Christine: Yes. It’s like with the context. It’s one thing if you just like don’t have any context surrounding why there’s kids there. If you have the context that this guy has been in prison for raping a child– Or no, sorry. She wasn’t a child at the time. 25-year-old, but raping and abducting a girl, a young woman? Like wouldn’t you think, “I will at least do a little more thorough–“? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: All you gotta do is open the shed, and you’ll see her bed and all that nonsense. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: But yeah. 

Em: How was there a parole officer who never looked on his entire property? 

Christine: They did. They said– They, they rarely inspected the home, which was part of their job. They were supposed to inspect the home. They were supposed to. 

Em: Yeah, like why would– [scoffs] If someone’s– If someone got only 11 out of 50 years– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –you would think, “Okay, um. I think I’m–“ 

Christine: And you’re getting complaints from the neighbors about girls in the backyard. 

Em: Yeah. I would think if someone’s done 11 years, you can go check, especially ’cause they’re like– 

Christine: You can, you can do a little perusing. 

Em: A quick scan. Jesus Christ. 

Christine: A quick scan. I mean, it’s just out of control. And like at this time like– I don’t know if I gave it enough airtime, but like basically she was running the business. So there was one client who was interviewed and said like, “There was a mistake on my business card, so I called. And like later I found out it was Jaycee I was talking to.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: But like Jaycee said, “Oh, we’ll fix that right up, Mrs. So-and-So,” and like fixed up the business card. She’s like an employee and manager at this company also and interfacing with clients. Like she’s fully been swept into this. 

Em: I mean, also I love that it’s like because he– he’s such narcissist, he opens a business and then makes like– 

Christine: Makes her do it. 

Em: –his literal victim do it. 

Christine: 100%. 

Em: But then he gets to reap all the reward, of course, so. 

Christine: 100%. It’s just out of control. 

Em: But he’s busy writing a religion with the Angels. 

Christine: He’s so busy talking to angels who won’t leave him alone. Yeah, it’s really, really fucked up. Sometimes the parole officers would like make appointments and then never even show. Like there’s just a lot of ne– like, um, neglecting their duties there, which, like you said, is probably why the $20 million dollars, dollars were awarded. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Um, like I said, the Garridos lived in a residential neighborhood. There were complaints being called in. For example, in 2006, a neighbor called to report that two young girls appeared to be living in a tent in the backyard. 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: And although of course this should have raised– 

Em: The oversight is crazy. 

Christine: –fucking giant alarm bells because he’s on parole for kidnapping, the responding officer only gave him like a citation and said like, “Hey, don’t let your nieces sleep in the yard.” When Phillip left for a while when Jaycee was younger and she had been alone with Nancy, it turned out he had actually been in jail during that time. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: And even when he was in jail, they didn’t come over and do an inspection at the house. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: He just said to his wife or partner, whoever she was, “Hey, watch my kidnapping victim for a few days. I’m going to jail.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So it was– I know. I know. It was determined that authorities repeatedly failed to follow basic procedures, which would have led to a much earlier discovery and rescue of Jaycee than 18 fucking years. And after her discovery, of course, they did an extensive search of the property, and, uh, you know, they looked for evidence that might link him to any other kidnappings, like Michaela’s for example, but they couldn’t find anything, which is extra hard. Because Michaela’s mom who thought– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –like her daughter’s case would be solved in hours is now 21 years later, and Jaycee’s kidnapper is caught, but they find no evidence of Michaela on the property. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: So she doesn’t even get answers. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: The Garridos’ defense tried to argue – imagine being the defense lawyer – tried to argue that Jaycee could have sought help ’cause she had access to the internet. Yikes. And that she and the Garridos and her daughters were just a big happy family. Yikes. But– 

Em: Like I, I do have a– I do wonder about like defense lawyers like that. I’m just like how can you do that? 

Christine: I know. I know. 

Em: [laughs] How can you go to bed, you know? 

Christine: It’s gotta be really conflicting. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Unless you have like kinda sociopathic tendencies and you don’t care. [laughs] 

Em: Unless you really believe it. Yeah. 

Christine: Um, but Jaycee’s private journal revealed years of Jaycee’s thoughts on being a captive. So like basically they had firsthand handwritten evidence of her saying, “I wish somebody could help me or save me.” And so it’s like at least they had actual physical evidence saying like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –no, no, no, no, no. Like you can call her a happy family, whatever, but like here’s literal proof that she was saying, “I wish somebody would find me.” Her mother read the impact statement that Jaycee wrote for the Garridos’ sentencing, and it began, “I chose not to be here today because I refuse to waste another second of my life in your presence.” 

Em: Mm! 

Christine: [applauds] That is– 

Em: Good job, girl. 

Christine: Oh! Perfection. 

Em: Delicious. 

Christine: Her mom’s like, “I’ll step in here.” God, I love it. It closed, quote, “Yes, as I think of all of those years I am angry because you stole my life and that of my family. Thankfully I am doing well now and no longer live in a nightmare. I have wonderful friends and family around me. Something you can never take from me again. You do not matter any more.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Reunited with her family, Jaycee wrote two best-selling books in which she chronicled her life in captivity and her life after she, you know, got her freedom back. And she founded a, a foundation called J– So her name is spelled J-A-Y-C-E-E. Her foundation is called JAYC, but it’s J-A-Y and then the letter C, all capital letters. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And it stands for “Just Ask Yourself To Care.” 

Em: Aw! 

Christine: And it’s, it’s her foundation. Their mission is “to be of service to families and individuals that have experienced a severe crisis, challenge or conflict through a major life disruption; to spread the message of hope, growth and resiliency through educational and animal-assisted programs–“ 

Em: Aw! 

Christine: “–to encourage the collaboration of various entities to provide ‘Protected Spaces’ for families to heal.” And so through her work, countless others will have the opportunity to heal, following Jaycee’s example and strength and her family’s love and unending hope. And that is the story of Jaycee Le– Lee Dugard, who is now in her 40s, has a family with her kids, happy– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –being interviewed and is just like, “Yeah, that was fucked up.” 

Em: Oof. [sighs] 

Christine: And I’m like, “Girl, I watched the documentary, and I barely survived.” I don’t know how people have such strong– People are– Women are so strong. That’s all. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Women are so fucking strong. 

Em: It’s true. 

Christine: The end. 

Em: It’s a, a good moral. 

Christine: [sighs] Sweet girl. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: It’s just so sad. 18 years of your life. 

Em: Yeah. I can’t imagine. That was, um– I hope they still look at the moon together. 

Christine: Isn’t that nice? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I, uh– When I was little and my stepdad left, which I thought was just like temporary and then it ended up being for good– It sounds like some sort of like weird afterschool special. But anyway– 

Em: [laughs] We’ve been there. I’ve been there too. It’s okay. 

Christine: Yeah, we’ve all been there. You guys get it. Um, you get it. 

Em: [laughs] Mine left me at the airport, so I get it. 

Christine: Yikes. Yeah, and I remember him telling me, “Oh, if you ever look at the moon, we’ll be looking at the same moon,” and I still think about it to this day. But I’m– But– 

Em: Oh, that certainly was a traumatic moment, yeah. That– 

Christine: Yeah, but then that person started– I’m not gonna name names, but then that person had two kids of their own and stopped speaking to me, so, um. 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: It’s fine. It’s not like I have nightmares about it every day. 

Em: Mine had two kids before me and now doesn’t talk to any of us, so [laughs]. 

Christine: Ah, that would be better, ’cause then at least I have someone to like commiserate with, you know. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, I just like watch the family photos, and I’m like, “Well, that was me for a minute.” 

Em: Isn’t that weird? I– When I was going through my mom’s, uh– 

Christine: You know what’s the most painful? 

Em: What? 

Christine: Sorry. 

Em: No. Tell us your pain. 

Christine: Whenever that pers– whenever that person posts about like things like this, like the moon or like a book we used to read together, and I’m like, “That was our thing.” 

Em: Yeah, but he has to know that– Right? You would think he knows that like it’s affecting you? 

Christine: I think– I hope. I hope. 

Em: I don’t know. That’s rough. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: My, uh, my ex-dad, uh– Yeah, I still think about him. I– It’s weird. I might see him soon in court. 

[laughs] 

Christine: Do you want me to write you– Here, why don’t we just copy Jaycee’s mom’s statement? “I don’t want to spend another fucking second of my life with you.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] I– Yeah, I’m curious about how that’s gonna go, but, um, I don’t know. I wonder if he’ll think about me behind bars. I don’t know. [laughs] 

Christine: Leave it to, Em. I’m like, “Sometimes I think of my stepdad and how we looked at the moon,” and Em’s like, “Well, I’m gonna see my stepdad in court.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Em is the one-up king. It’s Em. 

Em: I’m not trying to one up. I just, uh– 

Christine: I know you’re not. We both have– 

Em: I’m trying to think of like what’s the one thing that him and I– Like I, I can’t think of a thing that he thinks about me w– I mean, maybe he does. 

Christine: You know– But you know what’s so painful is that like I always wonder if he thinks about me. 

Em: Mm-hmm. I get it. 

Christine: But then I’m like, “But he has two kids so it’s–“ And like they’re so close and happy and– Which I’m, I’m obviously so happy for them, but it’s like I just wonder like he probably doesn’t even– It doesn’t even cross his mind. I don’t know. 

Em: I think he thinks of me if there’s ever like a Back to the Future reference because– 

Christine: Oh, like a very specific you thing. 

Em: Yeah, but I don’t think he– 

Christine: Or like how could you not think of Em in this moment. 

Em: Because I– When he– After he left, he left like a DeLorean toy for me– 

Christine: Fun. 

Em: –’cause like a– as an “I’m sorry” gift. So he must– I– He thought of me then. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: But I don’t– 

Christine: Do you still have it? 

Em: I think I do and I never took it out of the box, which probably says something. 

Christine: I don’t know what it says though. 

Em: Me either. Like I don’t, I don’t want anything to do with it or–? 

Christine: Is it like you’re collect– you’re keeping it like–? 

Em: No, it’s not like ’cause it’s a collector thing. It’s like I think I just want– 

Christine: You just didn’t even wanna touch it. 

Em: Yeah, I was just like, “This is kinda gross. Like thanks for the gift for leaving.” 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: Like you know. 

Christine: Meanwhile, I keep my gifts and I’m– from the person I’m speaking about and like have them like preserved specially in a box. [laughs] 

Em: I, I mean, I– There’s also– It must say something that I haven’t thrown it away, you know. 

Christine: I know, right? It's like, man. 

Em: Yeah, I don’t know. I, I think– I wonder if he thinks about me. I– But also part of me thinks he’s too selfish to ever do that. 

Christine: You know what makes me sad too is like Jaycee’s stepdad was already so cruel to her in the beginning, remember? 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Like when– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Well, and her own dad who said he wanted nothing to do with her, and her mom had to tell her like, “Hey, your dad just–“ I mean, this– Talk about like generational trauma. Like this just keeps happening. Like– 

Em: I mean, men– man after man after man like you just– like it just gets worse. 

Christine: And– Yes, and now Jaycee’s daughters have to live with “Oh, my dad is a rapist,” you know. And then like how do they get– I mean, it’s just like– “And I spent my first 8– 16 years of my life under the thumb of–“ 

Em: “Held hostage, and I didn’t even know it.” 

Christine: Held hostage. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Anyway. 

Em: People think that us talking about our stepdads like is kind of like uncomfy, but i-imagine like what Jaycee has to do every time she makes a friend, you know. So. 

Christine: No, I– Exactly. We could probably talk more about our stepdads if you wanted to do that in the Yappy Hour? 

Em: Sure! 

Christine: Or we could do something else. I don’t know. We have a lot to talk about in the Yappy Hour, guys. 

Em: We– [laughs] We can ta– 

Christine: It’s raining here. I’m feeling moody as shit. 

Em: If you, if you’d like to know, uh, more of our ex-dad trauma, then, um, hop on over to Yappy Hour. 

Christine: If you have ex-dad trauma, let’s all go commiserate together. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, you can find us at patreon.com/atwwdpodcast. Um, we do a weekly Yappy Hour, which we thought people didn’t like, but it turns out they were just listening through the RSS feed and not the video link– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –which that was my bad. So apparently people do listen to it, which is shocking ’cause I feel like I said a lot of things that I just assumed was just you and me FaceTiming. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, but it feels like if anything will ever leak about us, I think it will be through Yappy Hour. ’Cause I really lose my filter there, ’cause I know nobody in my own circle listens. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: ’Cause they don’t pay me money on Patreon. So I’m like, “Who would find out?” You know? 

Em: Well, in– For a one night only, if you’d like to hear more about our stepfather trauma, then you ca– 

[laughs] 

Em: –to talk about things that are gonna leak, um, head on over. Catch you there. And– 

Christine: It’s so fun, guys. [laughs] That’s– 

Em: Why– [laughs] 

Christine: We– 

Em: –Drink.

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