E408 A Charles of All Trades and ADHD Funeral Plans

TOPICS: THE HAMPTON HOUSE, SARAH STERN

PASS! The Cranberry Sauce, it’s Episode 408 and we are definitely more certain about what a pilgrim is than a mulberry bush. Today Em takes us to Maryland for the haunted Hampton House where the ghosts seem to move themselves in. Then Christine brings us the upsetting and plot twist filled case of Sarah Stern. And to all the Cygnets and Scorpios out there, Christine is here for you… and that’s why we drink!

Photos:
The Haunted Hampton House
Sarah Stern

Transcript

[intro music]

Em: [speak-singing] ♪ Pass–

Christine: [speak-singing] –the–

Em: –cranberry–

Christine: –sauce /

Em: We’re–

Christine: –having–

Em: –mashed–

Christine: potatoes /

Em: Ooh–

Christine: –the–

Em: –turkey–

Christine: –looks–

Em: –great /

Christine: Thank–

Em: –you–

Christine: –for–

Em: –being–

Christine: –there /

Em: Thank– ♪♪

Christine: [speaking] Wait. “Thank you for loving me.” [laughs]

Em: ♪ Thank– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] –you ♪♪ Wait. [laughs] I thought I say [unintelligible]– [laughs]

Em: Okay, try again. Try again. ♪ Pass–

Christine: –the–

Em: –cranberry–

Christine: –sauce /

Em: We’re–

Christine: –having–

Em: –mashed–

Christine: potatoes /

Em: Ooh–

Christine: –the–

Em: –turkey–

Christine: –looks–

Em: –great /

Christine: Thank–

Em: –you–

Christine: –for–

Em: –lovin’–

Christine: –me /

Em: Thank–

Christine: –you– [laughs]

Em: –for–

Christine: –being–

Em: –there /

Christine: Everyone’s–

Em: –thankin’ /

Christine: The–

Em: –whole–

Christine: –world’s–

Em: –thankin’–

Christine: –you–

Em: –for–

Christine: –thankin’–

Em: –us–

Christine: –for–

Em: –thankin’–

Christine: –you /

[unison]: Kill the turkey! ♪♪ [laughs]

Christine: Wow, it’s just like it was when we did it in person. Just–

[laughs]

Christine: Just as seamless.

Em: Uh–

Christine: Man, that is what T’s me O this week because honestly, I forgot. And you said, “Don’t forget,” but then you got in my head, and then I forgot.

Em: Oh, I– But then I totally forgot, and then I had a bunch of reasons to list off of why I am not thankful today. So, um–

Christine: Oh, oops! [laughs]

Em: Thank you, thank you, um, Thanksgiving Santa Claus, for reminding me of the spirit of today. Um–

Christine: Next week, you know what’s gonna happen. But we’re not doing it yet ’cause we have to give “Pass” its own– “Pass the Cranberry Sauce” its own little breathing room.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Since we accidentally missed his birthday this year.

Em: [laughs] Uh, what– Are you, are you thankful for anything right now?

Christine: No.

Em: Me either.

[laughs]

Christine: That’s a joke. I’m very thankful, but, um, I’m also very sleepy. And that’s the hard life we live.

Em: I– I’m very sleepy. I, I have a f– a few reasons. Um, I would like to, uh, read to you why I drink tod– uh, in this exact moment.

Christine: Read to me?

Em: I did– Well, I– I have wrote a list ’cause I know I’d forget. Um.

Christine: Wow. [laughs] Oh gosh. I think this is the first time we’ve ever written it down.

Em: It’s the first time in 408 episodes we’ve had notes. I– Maybe. Um.

Christine: That– [laughs] Yeah, yeah. That’s true too.

Em: Uh, no, the first one is that, uh, I planned on making my day extra special becau– with, um–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –getting a drink delivered to me instead of having my usual LD.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: I ha– I fire up the UberEats. And what do you know it? My item is sold out.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And it never has been sold out. Today’s the first day. And it’s the one where the person who owns the coffee shop, so I’ll give them a shoutout: Three Sisters Coffee & Tea. Um, they don’t know where I live hopefully, but I do order from them often. And I think when they see “Em in Burbank,” and I was ordering a shit load of London fogs all at once, um–

Christine: Right, it kind of clicked for somebody?

Em: It did. And so whenever they send me drinks, they write like a fun little note on it, and it always makes me happy. And so I was like, “Oh, I’m gonna cheer myself up and have, have a little London fog today.” Sold out. So, for once, I don’t like them.

Christine: Yeah, um– [pretending to talk to someone offscreen] Oh, sorry. You have that delivery of London fogs? Yeah, all 468.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [pretending to talk to someone offscreen] Can you put those in the hallway please? Um, I”ll, I’ll be drinking them later. [talking to Em] Sorry, I, I muted myself for a minute. What was that you were saying last–? Um.

Em: [laughs] I do usually get like three at a time. [laughs]

Christine: [pretending to talk to someone offscreen] Oh, and make sure you keep all the, the nice notes for me. Like set them aside so that I can read them later. ’Cause I know they’re gonna know who I am and, um, write me some nice message. Okay, thanks.

Em: It, it always makes me feel so good. I’ve never asked them ba– but like because I don’t want to let them know where I live, and I’m obviously ordering.

Christine: [laughs] I do, at this point. I feel like– I feel like they could have checked by now. I mean, I’m not saying they did, but they could’ve ’cause–

Em: I wonder. I don’t know if on their end they can see the address ’cause they’re the restaurant. But, um–

Christine: Oh, maybe– Maybe they can– Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know.

Em: But, so– And s-since I want to like still have correspondence with them, I leave notes in the–

Christine: [laughs] Correspondence.

Em: I leave, uh, nice notes back to them in the additional comments on my UberEats order.

Christine: Oh, that’s very thoughtful.

Em: So it’s kind of like, um– I don’t–

Christine: So today, you just sent a middle finger. You were like, “Thanks for nothing.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] If I could have, yeah. But so I’m mad about that because I thought I was going to have a, a better, a better day today because my taste buds would be a little more ecstatic. Um, so that’s number one.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Number two–

Christine: Heartbreaking.

Em: Thank you. I thought so.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I felt, I felt it. Um, number two is that I have been looking everywhere for– You know the company NeeDoh that does like the sensory squishy balls?

Christine: Yes, I’ve been seeing those everywhere.

Em: Okay, so they had a release drop for a while ago called the Gumdrop, which I was very excited about it.

Christine: Cute.

Em: It comes after the NeeDoh Nice Cube, which I was much more desperate to have. But everywhere I went, they were sold out. I finally got my hands on one yesterday–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –the NeeDoh Nice Cube. It is a dream come true. If you have a– an oral moral fixation like I do where you want to chew on it so fucking bad like a do–

Christine: Moral? Or molar?

Em: Oh, I said mo– I– Oh, sorry.

Christine: Oral molar.

Em: You’re right. Molar. I said oral, and then my brain got tricked. Oral mo–molar– Jeez. That’s a tongue twister.

Christine: That is a really tricky combination of words to be fair. [laughs]

Em: If you have the fixation I do of like wanting to chew on Dr. Scholl’s, the NeeDoh Nice Cube will absolutely floor you.

Christine: [laughs] Seriously? That’s great.

Em: Absolutely floor– If you throw it in the freezer for ten minutes, ooh. Forget it.

Christine: You’re– It’s like you’re teething like a little baby.

Em: I literally was gnawing on it like a caveman last night.

Christine: [laughs] Holy shit.

Em: And it was disgusting, but it was– It felt so fucking good. But here’s the thing; I broke it. [laughs]

Christine: You? [laughs] Wait. Hold on. Now, I’m immediately, immediate–

Em: [laughs] With– Within, within like an hour.

Christine: –I’m immediately imagining that you like bit it and like whatever gooey contents or something came out.

Em: No, I’m lucky.

Christine: Oh, thank god.

Em: No. I might have– It might have begun–

Christine: ’Cause a Dr. Scholl’s– I’ve thought so many times about the d– one day that you bite into a Dr. Scholl’s or whatever–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and it’ll just like– The goo will get everywhere, and it’ll probably just kill you on the spot. Um, I, I do worry about that.

Em: For– No, I– I am lucky that the biting– I was actually impressed ’cause I was trying to bite it really hard. And I was like, “It’s not been breaking. Maybe this thing is like a solid gel that I don’t– I’ve never heard of in my life.”

Christine: [laughs] Oh gosh.

Em: I was blown away. But then I was doing the thing where you twist it like a balloon animal, and I– That was what gave it, um–

Christine: [gasps] No!

Em: –critical mass. Uh, and so can confirm inside is a very, very thick and very can’t-get-it-off-your-finger sticky glue.

Christine: Like a viscous situation?

Em: Yeah, and like once one little hole broke– Like once it had a pour, it started like coming out really quick. [laughs]

Christine: Oh no. It’s just like spouting.

Em: So, so usually I would be– “Usually” – I got it yesterday. What I would have liked to do is play with it while we were recording today, but I will have to settle for the Gumdrop, which is fine, but I really love that Nice Cube.

Christine: Can I see you squish it? I’ve never seen somebody use it before.

Em: Yeah, let me, let me– So my favorite thing about the Nice Cube and the Gumdrop is that they always go back to their form. Like– So like it always stays like Gumdrop-shaped.

Christine: That’s nice. That’s cute.

Em: And then it has the s–

Christine: Let me see how–

Em: It has the same consistency as the NiceDoh, but it has little textures on it.

Christine: I’ve never touched– I’ve never seen– I’ve never held a NiceDoh or NeeDoh or whatever.

Em: It’s a– basically a stress ball, but it’s like really tough. Like it’s almost like a resistance kinda band.

Christine: Oh, that’s nice. So you don't feel– Well, I was gonna say so you don’t feel like you’re gonna ruin it, but I guess you do now. [laughs]

Em: Um, this one feels a little tougher than the NiceDoh, but–

Christine: Yeah, you tell yourself that.

Em: Uh, yeah. I’m definitely– I’ve learned to not do the balloon animal thing.

Christine: [laughs] You’re gonna b-bite it.

Em: But no, if you bite it. [bites it] Oh, it’s delicious. It’s amazing.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um, okay. So that’s–

Christine: Somebody somewhere just found their kink watching you do that. Like “whoa!”

Em: That’s fine. If I’m your awakening with the NeeDoh Gumdrop, um, sensory toy for ch– baby children.

Christine: I’ve never touched one of these, and now it’s– Literally all I want is now to touch one of these. I can’t believe I’ve ever touched one of these.

Em: Okay, so the– You want the NiceDoh. You don’t want this, and then, uh, not to say that this isn’t–

Christine: The NiceDoh?

Em: Sorry, the Nice Cube.

Christine: Isn’t it NeeDoh? Oh, Nice Cube.

Em: The brand is, the brand is NeeDoh because playing with them is neato. Um.

Christine: Right, but it’s a Nice Cube, not a NeeCube or whatever.

Em: The, the Nice Cube is the one you want.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Yeah, um, not that this isn’t great, but the Nice Cube does something that I’ve been waiting for my whole life. Um.

Christine: Wow.

Em: So that’s the second reason I drink. The third reason is because I just bought ten flights for the rest of the year, um, because I have–

Christine: I wish I were surprised, but yeah, me too. [laughs]

Em: Just the way that we, uh, travel, it’s just– I wrote it all down, and I went, “Oh my god.” So I’m going from like here to there to here to there. ’Cause I have– I just have so much, uh, between tour, which luckily half of them are covered by like the podcast, but the other half are still–

Christine: Mm-hmm. Oh, the holiday ones are not, are not covered by any– Mm-hmm.

Em: Like I’m going to a baby shower; I’m going to my aunt’s; I’m going to– home for Christmas. Yeah. So, um, I just added it all up, and wow, I can barely afford one more Nice Cube or a London fog from this fucking coffee place. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Then stop chewing on it.

Em: So for that reason, I drink a Li– LD. [cracks can open]

Christine: Wow, that was, uh, quite a presentation.

Em: Thank you. Your turn.

Christine: It fucking–

Em: Why do you drink? [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I mean, it’s hard to beat all your drama over there, to be honest. Um– I–

Em: [sighs] I’m telling you with this list of flights, my– the London fog a-and the Nice Cube would have both been a real help today. So.

Christine: Well, I guess I’ll keep it out of frame ’cause I did bring up my Aaron’s Putty to play with–

Em: Ooh!

Christine: –but now I feel, I felt that maybe I should just not rub it in, you know.

Em: [laughs] It– It’s, tt’s fine. What Aaron’s Putty do you have?

Christine: I got Leona one that has like little faces, like the little smiley faces where you have to find the different emotions, and then I got myself the bu– uh, bumblebee honey one.

Em: Lovely.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I like– I was a fan for a while of the liquid glass, but she gets dirty so fast.

Christine: I was gonna say. I saw that and went, “Em would like that, but I know that it’ll end up on my carpet.”

Em: I also like the one that comes with the little blacklight and you can draw on it. But, you know, a-after a while, I was like, “I’m gonna lose this little keychain. I already know.”

Christine: Yeah, I wanted it to be as simple as possible ’cause I knew I would just get overwhelmed. Um, anyway, but why do I drink this week? My oh my. Um, I mean, there are many reasons. So many. So many.

Em: You want– You wanna borrow one of mine or you–? [laughs]

Christine: Trying– I’m trying to think of if any of them are– Mm.

Em: Interesting enough?

Christine: Oh, no. They’re interesting. They’re just, um, maybe off-air conversations.

Em: Oh, shit.

Christine: So I’m trying to think of how to approach this. I mean, you know s– a lot of it, but– I’m just having some interesting turns of events and stuff, um, when it comes to like people in my life. [laughs] I’m trying to be so vague.

Em: Oh, are we talking about a family situation?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And it just– Em, I have so many updates for you when I see you next or talk to you next. Ah! It’s bad. Okay, it’s not bad.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: It’s just, uh, it’s just like a lot. And I had to do a breathing test, this breathing test– Not a breathing test. I had to do a breathing exercise this morning ’cause I didn’t know how to stop breathing– or start breathing. Oh my god.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: This morning, I woke up and had a panic attack and then– just like out of the blue. And then my ring was like, “You didn’t sleep last night.” I was like, “Yeah, no shit.” And so then I tried to nap, and I was like, “Man, why can’t I fall asleep?” And then I looked at my watch, and my heart rate was like 96 beats per minute, and I was like–

Em: Oh, lucky. [laughs]

Christine: –“I’m– I’ve been lying in bed for like four hours. Why is my heart racing?” So I was like– Uh, I went on Instagram to just like distract myself, and the first meme I saw was like, [laughs] “How do I tell my nervous system I’m not being hunted for sport?” and I was like, “Great question.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, and so I tried to breathe, but then I couldn’t breathe anymore. Anyway, it’s just been one of those days where I’m like, “Can everybody just give me a fucking break for a millisecond? ’Cause I need to sleep more than five hours a night, and I can’t because no one’s really letting me do that.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: So it’s fine. Everything’s fine. We’re gonna record also the Listener Episode after this, and I’ve already put, uh, some wine aside because that’ll be prime drinking hour.

Em: Excellent.

Christine: Yeah. So I’m looking forward to that. Um, but mostly, let’s just say there’s just some, just some drama. But there’s always drama, you know, and I just– I’m so sick of it. I’m just, I’m just so sick of it. So– Yeah.

Em: I, I know exactly how you feel. One time, I had this thing called the NeeDoh Nice Cube.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: And it broke. And it’s just been a really bad life since, so.

Christine: I thought you were gonna be like, “Well, one time I was in an ambulance ’cause of my heart, “ and I was like, “I know, I know.”

Em: [laughs] [sighs] No.

Christine: But usually I only have one health thing to wor– Well, not one, but three health things to worry about. Today, it feels like– Oh my gosh. Em, it’s so bad. And then my intrusive thoughts have been getting so much worse.

Em: [sarcastically] Good.

Christine: And then I’m like, “Oh my god. Is that why I’m not sleeping?”

Em: Like what?

Christine: Did you just say “good”? [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Like what?

Christine: Oh, it’s mostly just about like– Well, I did a whole thing on Instagram. Mostly it’s about hurting people–

Em: Everyone’s gonna die?

Christine: No, it’s just me hurting people, and then, um, you know, that kind of thing.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like a lot of people, it’s hurting themselves. Mine’s hurting other people. [laughs] I don’t know which one’s worse. Um–

Em: Like you fantasize about it and–? Not like in a way that you want it, but it’s like stuck in your head.

Christine: It’s like– So– It’s– Hm. How do I exp– Do you have any intrusive thoughts really? Or not?

Em: Uh, I, I–

Christine: Like r-really like stuck sticky ones? Or not really?

Em: Sometimes I feel like I do, but then I gaslight myself into thinking maybe they’re not intrusive thoughts because I don’t– I think I don’t know the definition or I feel like other people have more intense ones, so then I feel like I like don’t have the right to be claiming them as intrusive thoughts. I don’t know.

Christine: I’ll just, I’ll just tell you. I mean, I think it’s just something you can only determine for yourself, but– They’re unwanted, repetitive, and persistent thoughts, urges, or images that cause distress or anxiety. And a lot of mine are, um, very inapp– Like they’re marked by being like so outrageous, it’s almost like you’re tricking your brain into being like, “Look how fucked up you are that you’re thinking about this.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: And it’s like, “No, it’s not me. It’s just my brain.” Um, and it like– I don’t know. For me, it finds like my biggest fears and then decides like right as I’m falling asleep to be like, “Imagine if this happened.” It’s like, “Oh, fuck you.” Um, but that’s more like an anxiety thing, I think.

Em: See, I–

Christine: That’s more anxiety. But like–

Em: I don’t think– I think I have intrusive thoughts in where I think about like really fucked up things and then I feel bad about even having those thoughts in my head. Uh–

Christine: Well, yeah. That’s part of it.

Em: Okay.

Christine: It’s a very, very vicious cycle because then you’re like–

Em: But I don’t think about the “what ifs.” Like I just think of like– You know how when we– like the internet was a lawless land and we would see fucked up videos as kids?

Christine: [laughs]

Em: They– Sometimes they’ll replay in my head. And I can’t get them out of my head, and then I’m like, “Why?”

Christine: Interesting.

Em: That just sounds like trauma. Like that just sounds like–

Christine: I was gonna say. It sounds like you’re just having memories– flashbacks. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Yeah. But then I think like, “Oh, why can’t I stop thinking about it?” And then I freak myself out where I’m like, “It– Do I– Like why do I– Do I like it or–? Like why, why can’t I just make myself stop thinking about it?” That’s kind of the furthest it goes though. I don’t– So that–

Christine: I mean, that’s pr– Yeah. I don’t know. I– Listen, I’m no diag– I’m no diagnostic expert, so I can’t, I can’t say. But yeah, it’s, um– Anyway, it’s fine. I just need to like chill out. I don’t know how to chill out.

Em: Yeah, I gotcha.

Christine: That’s all.

Em: No, the only thing that really happens to me is I panic. I’m like, “Do I actually like–“ Like I know I don’t, but I’m like, “Then why else would I be thinking about it nonstop?” But then maybe it’s just something that I– It’s like a earworm but a brainworm where I just can’t stop– It just keeps replaying, and I can’t escape it.

Christine: Like pl– Is it like a visual too? Like you’re watching it play?

Em: Yeah, just like those really like fucked up ones that everyone saw when we were kids. Like I just–

Christine: I’m like trying to imagine what you mean. Like “Two Girls, One Cup” or something?

Em: Uh, kind of. It was more like really violent videos. Like they were just– Like they would just pop up on your feed back in the day. It was like on like eBaum’s World and stuff.

Christine: Oh god.

Em: Um, and sometimes I end up thinking about those, and I just can’t get it out of my head. But maybe I can’t get out of my head because it’s like so fucking traumatic that like it won’t escape easily. Um.

Christine: I mean– [laughs] It sounds like it’s in there. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. [laughs] Uh, no, but I don’t– I, I guess I luckily don’t suffer from too many tendencies. I’m sure I’ve got like a quirk, uh, like, like one OCD quirk.

Christine: No.

Em: But I don’t, I don’t suffer, suffer from it. So, um–

Christine: You’re not a quirk. You’re not full of quirks. You’re so–

Em: I know–

Christine: –boring and normal. [laughs]

Em: I would– Look, if I had my Nice Cube and it was in my mouth, you wouldn’t be able to hear me agreeing with you. But, um–

[laughs]

Em: –you’re right. I have not a single quirk to me.

Christine: Oh, wait. I’m drinking water out of the mug you gave me when I got engaged.

Em: Aw. I’m surprised you still have that. I feel like we– you could’ve–

Christine: What? Of course I still have it. You know that– You know that I hold onto things. It’s a dangerous, it’s a dangerous game to play giving me presents. They’ll never escape.

Em: Oh, thank you. Okay, well, no. So I feel like every now and then when it comes to mugs, you’re allowed to be like, “Okay, we got a whole new shipment coming in of like 30 new mugs that I bought recently. Time to clear out the old ones.”

Christine: I just love a big, a big– This one’s too special.

Em: That’s nice. Wow. Um, I’m so moved. Well, do you want to–

Christine: I wish you had put your Nice Cube in your mouth when you said that. “I’m so moved.”

Em: It, it sounded like this. [puts Nice Cube in mouth, muffling voice and losing enunciation] Wow, that’s so nice. Do you– I’m so moved.

Christine: [laughs] I can’t, I can’t believe you’re doing this. This is actually now– No, everybody’s finding their anti-kink, and it’s including me right now.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh my god. And then you pulled a hair out of your mouth. I’m going to throw up. Alright, go on. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] I thought I– I thought, I thought I felt a hair in my mouth. But it wasn’t there.

Christine: I’m the one who eats stuff off the ground. If I’m grossed out, there’s a problem.

Em: It– We’re fine. It’s a big Gumdrop. We’re okay. I could have put so many worse things in my mouth. Um, okay. Let’s do a story.

[glass clinks - start of ad break]

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]

Em’s Story – The Hampton House

Em: This is from– I always say this is from as if it’s a person, but I mean a location.

Christine: Yeah, [laughs] “this is from.”

Em: [laughs] This is from my friend who sent in a request.

Christine: This is from my Google Docs.

Em: Uh, yeah. This is from Google. This is called the Hampton House, and it is ten miles from Baltimore.

Christine: Ooh. It’s not in The Hamptons?

Em: You know, here’s the thing. It’s so weird that this story–

Christine: Aren’t you going to The Hamptons? Sorry, that’s probably–

Em: No, but the reason you’re thinking that is because, um, I mentioned The Hamptons on our last leg together.

Christine: Yes.

Em: And I don’t remember why, but it w– It must have been–

Christine: Because you said you were invited to go to The Hamptons.

Em: Oh! Oh, oh. Oh, well, it came– It ended up turning into another conversation–

Christine: And I said you better go.

Em: It turned into another conversation where my mom and I are thinking of going. ‘Cause I was like, “We– I’ve, I’ve never been to this place. It sounds way out of my league, but I think for observation sake, I need to go. Like a, like a sociology study of sorts.“

Christine: That’s what I said. Yeah, I was like, “You better do it.”

Em: So, uh, I have asked her. I’m like–

Christine: Someone invites you to The Hamptons, you say yes, you know. Especially if it’s not on your bill.

Em: Well, so we’re gonna, uh, probably– We’re– I, I told her we should go, uh, probably at the end of this year or something.

Christine: Fun.

Em: By the way, fun fact, my, my mom is retiring soon, and so–

Christine: Ah! Congrats, Linda.

Em: And so I have a feeling I’m about to be here travel buddy to a few new places, so.

Christine: How exciting.

Em: Okay, here we go. This is not in The Hamptons, but let’s pretend. We start in 1790.

[silence]

Christine: Ah, good year.

[laughs]

Em: I know Christine thought that she was like gonna get away with not having to talk for a second, so she shoved her mouth full of M&M’s or something.

Christine: It’s pretzels. It’s pret– [unintelligible] pretzels– [laughs]

Em: Wait, do you have– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] –and then I muted myself. And then I was like, “Oh, I have a great joke for this. Hold on.” So– [laughs]

Em: Every time I–

Christine: Em had to wait. [laughs]

Em: Every time I say the year, I know Christine’s got to say like, “Oh, I remember her fondly.”

Christine: “I remember it well.” Yeah. [laughs] So stupid. It’s– Talk about like intrusive thoughts. [laughs]

Em: So– Okay. 1790. That is when the Hampton House is built. It took like 18 years for this thing to be built. They started in 1772, so before America existed– before the United States was here. Uh, and then–

Christine: What year was that? 177–?

Em: Six.

Christine: Six. I thought it was two. 1772, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

Em: That’s, that’s, 1492.

Christine: Oh, yeah. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That’s a different thing.

Em: And then on the 500th anniversary of that, I was born.

Christine: I wish I had muted my– I– Oh–

[laughs]

Christine: I wish I had muted myself again. That was really stupid.

Em: That part the microphone should have been off, and you should have had a bunch of pretzels in your mouth.

Christine: Damn, embarrassing.

Em: Do you remember the rest of that song by the way?

Christine: What song?

Em: The Columbus song.

Christine: Oh no, I don’t know any of– Apparently, I don’t even know the first line of the Columbus song, Em.

Em: [laughs] It’s–

Christine: Like we just determined that. [laughs]

Em: [singing] ♪ In 1492 [said as fourteen hundred ninety-two] / Columbus sailed the ocean blue / He brought three ships / Their names were these / The Santa, the– ♪♪

Christine: What?

Em: [speaking] –the, the, the something, the something, the Santa Maria. It was like so you knew all three of the ships.

Christine: The Pinto. The Mayflower. Are those right?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh, wait. No, one of those is pilgrims. Wait, hold on.

Em: [singing] ♪ He brought three ships /

Christine: What’s a pilgrim?

Em: Their na– ♪♪ [speaking] “What’s a pilgrim”?

[laughs]

Christine: I’m having a mental breakdown.

Em: Okay, we have to– Obviously–

Christine: [laughs] Having a mental breakdown. [sighs]

Em: At all, at all stages of the education system–

Christine: [laughs] What’s a pilgrim?

Em: –we’ve been failed. [laughs] Okay. Um–

Christine: Listen, I’ve been trying to erase that Columbus motherfucker out of my mind for, for decades. He’s one of my, he’s one of my eBaum’s World videos that I can’t get out of my head.

Em: I was gonna say, thinking of intrusive thoughts, I hate that man, and that song will always be in there.

Christine: I– That– The song is definitely gonna be, um, haunting us for the rest of our lives. Yeah.

Em: I gotta remember that– those three damn ships or it’s gonna kill me. Hang on.

Christine: Santa Maria, Pinto, and… Mayflower? Am I crazy?

Em: It’s not the Mayflower. [reading from search results] The Santa Maria, the– not pinto, that’s a bean. Let me see. The Pinta. You were kinda right.

Christine: Okay, I was close. Don’t fucking– [laughs] “You freak.”

Em: [laughs] The Nina– The Nina, the Pinta, the Santa Maria.

Christine: “You fucking freak. That’s a bean, you fucking freak.” I was one letter off. Give me a break.

Em: Okay, but if you and I had a boat today though, we would name it probably Beans, like the SS Beans.

Christine: SS Pinto. I would call it the SS Pinto and be like, “Get it, guys?” And nobody would get it. And I’d be like, “Like the boat,” and they’d be like, “That’s a bean.” And I’d be like, “I’m just gonna–“

Em: They’d be like, “The boat with the pilgrims on it or–?” [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, wait. What’s a pilgrim again? Anyway, it’s fine. I feel like it’s okay that we don’t remember about pilgrims, you know. Let’s just forget about ‘em.

Em: Yeah, I’m, I’m trying to– Es– And what a Thanksgiving episode this is. Okay, so–

Christine: This e–

[laughs]

Christine: You’re right! But the fact that we did this after Thanksgiving is even stupider ’cause it’s like it’s not even gonna come out–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Whatever. It comes out in December. Oh gosh.

Em: Just know that as Thanksgiving season entered for us, uh, as it was upon us, the first thing Christine asked me was, “What’s a pilgrim?” [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I mean, and I still stand by it is what I say. And I’m glad you didn’t tell me.

Em: I don’t wanna know.

Christine: I don’t wanna know.

Em: [whispers] I also don’t know. Uh–

Christine: I don’t know either. [laughs]

[glass clinks - start of ad break]

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]

Em: So here’s the thing. 1772. Columbus had already sailed the ocean blue about 300 years before.

Christine: [laughs] I’m like, I’m like 300 years off. That’s so stupid. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That’s really embarrassing.

Em: And – I wore a shirt yesterday that said “Harvard” on it which is so funny.

Christine: Oh, that’s bad. That’s bad. I didn’t, so at least I’m in the clear.

Em: So for those 18 years, 1772 to 1790, this house was being built.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: And it was built by a guy named Colonel– I’m pretty sure Colonel. One source said captain, but every other source said colonel. By Colonel Charles Ridgely.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And, uh, the like most bittersweet part of this is the house was finally built 18 years later, and then Charles died. So–

Christine: But they– It always goes like that, right? ’Cause it’s like the second they have the money– Or like the year they finally have the money to like build a nice house– All of a sudden, they’re starting construction, and then it takes 20 years, and then they’re dead. ’Cause they’re like 50 in the 1700s.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It’s just like, “Aw, man.” Always a bummer.

Em: I think he did die by like 56. Yeah, you’re right.

Christine: See? Man.

Em: Um, so he did not get to enjoy the 18 years of money he spent towards construction.

Christine: That’s too bad.

Em: And speaking of which, by– I just thought this was a funny little thing. The carpenter that built the house–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I want you to ask me how much they paid him for the build.

Christine: Mm-hmm. Oh, how much did they pay the carpenter who built it?

Em: Mm-hmm. Uh, good question. So, uh, they paid–

Christine: Thanks.

Em: They paid him $6,000 in the 1700s, which is around 200 grand today and also 17 gallons of rum.

Christine: [laughs] That was like– I would love to see the negotiating on that. Like–

Em: I, I feel like they were–

Christine: –“Make it 15 gallons.” “No, I won’t settle for anything less than 17.”

Em: I feel like they were like, “Oh, you do owe me more money.” And he was like, “Yeah, I can’t find any more cash in my wallet. Will you take like 17 gallons of rum I’ve got in the back?”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “Is that good?”

Christine: Uh, “Costco like over– over-shipped– Instacart–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “They mis-misunderstood what I ordered. Do you want to take 17 gallons of rum?” Oh my god.

Em: “I just need like 17 shots of it, and I have gallons.” Um–

Christine: Yeah. That’s perfect.

Em: Fun fact– Not so fun fact. Apparently, he drank too many of those gallons in one sitting, and this carpenter ended up dying by drunk driving his own horse into the river.

Christine: No!

Em: So–

Christine: That means his horse died – probably, maybe.

Em: Probably maybe, but I didn’t look it up ’cause I didn’t need to know.

Christine: ’Cause if it’s attached to a carriage– Oh, that’s sad. Yeah, I’m glad you didn’t look it up.

Em: No, I like to think he was like, like cowboy riding it, just for fun, and the horse got away.

Christine: Oh, and then he fell in the river, and the horse was like, “What the fuck did you think you were doing?”

Em: That’s the hope. That’s the hope.

Christine: I like, I like that version better.

Em: Um, I feel like the horse was like, “I’m dropping you off in the water. You can figure it out from here.” And then–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and then he didn’t. Um, okay. So, uh, Charles Ridgely is the one who built this house. Then he ends up dying. He was able to afford this house– I mean, this is a massive house. It was the largest, uh, Georgian– like Georgian architecture–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: It was the largest Georgian house around after the Revolutionary War, which– Georgian to me just looks like older Colonial houses. I don’t know.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: I don’t know the difference. Um–

Christine: There’s some of those in my neighborhood, and I’m like, “Oh, it’s a nice, uh, it’s a nice example of Georgian architecture.” Like I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

Em: [laughs] I’m like, “Okay, it’s a nice house. Great.”

Christine: Okay.

Em: Um, the way that he was able to afford this house is he got into iron working.

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: And he ends– It was– And it was right before the Revolutionary War, and then all of a sudden, they needed all of his iron works operations for like helmets and artillery and weapon–

Christine: Smart guy.

Em: –or, or bullets and so– uh, cannonballs, I think. All the cannonballs were made by him in the area. And I think it– Him being there and running this iron works operation, the economy blew up in Baltimore, and that’s how Baltimore became like a major city at the time.

Christine: Oh.

Em: So he, uh, quite thrived from the Revolutionary War, and, uh, the mansion– Oh, right. The man– Sorry. The mansion, because it was so big, it took 18 years to build. It was the largest private residence in the country at the time, although remember–

Christine: Jesu– Okay, so that’s on him for dying because like he could have built it half the size and then lived there for ten years.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: But no, he decided it had to be bigger and bigger and bigger. Then he died. Well, you know, that was gonna happen.

Em: I will say the country was like ten years old, so like he didn’t really have a lot of competition in the largest private residence contest.

Christine: That is such a good point. And also what’s the country at this point even?

Em: Ri– Just Baltimore, I think. [laughs]

Christine: The country? Yeah. The country? I thought that didn’t happen ‘till 14– What was it?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: 1776. [laughs]

Em: Yeah, and it– He started actually– It was perfect timing for building a house and wanting to make sure you beat everyone else size-wise because if the building started before the United States existed and only finished after the country existed–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –you had– While the country is being built, you had a contractor next to you going, “We could do it a little bigger, right? ’Cause I heard someone over there has a big house too.”

Christine: “Yeah, and like I can just use this Elmer’s glue, right? There’s no like laws that I have to actually make this thing stand up straight, right? Like it’s– I can just cut corners. Yeah.”

Em: “Exactly. You can just use the NeeDoh. You just pop it with your teeth, and the– It’s really sticky.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “Um, so that’ll do.” Um, okay. So yeah, the mansion took forever, and it was modeled after, after a castle in England.

Christine: Sure.

Em: It had thousands of acres. One of my favorite rooms in the house is a snack and tea room.

Christine: No, I love that.

Em: And apparently, it had six state champion trees. Do you know what a champion tree is?

Christine: I mean, I’m assuming it has like– It got like a ribbon in some state fair, but I have no idea.

Em: Kind of. It– So a champion tree is the largest tree of its kind.

Christine: Remember that giant thing when we– that thing when we talked about mulberry bushes and got like really– sorry to say, in the weeds, but, uh, pun not intended. But remember when we got really in the weeds about like what a mulberry bush was and whether this was like a– There was–

Em: To this day, I’m more certain about a pilgrim than a mulberry bush, which–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –I’ll just let you know, I–

Christine: We were like, “I thought that was a tree. I thought that was a–“ Um, and they would literally be in the– like the prison yard– I don’t know.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I have very vague memories of that episode, but I remember being very concerned that like this tree got beat out by some other tree f– with a blue ribbon.

Em: Yes.

Christine: And I was very hurt on its behalf. So okay, it’s the biggest one.

Em: Now, for people listening, that was the episode where I was covering the origins– the spooky origins of nursery rhymes.

Christine: Yep. Right.

Em: And, uh, the mulberry bush in that mulberry bush song apparently is a mulberry bush that’s just sitting in a prison.

Christine: Just a prison– [laughs] It’s a prison song.

Em: And all the prisoners would just go around it to kill time.

Christine: ’Cause they had nothing better to do. [laughs] It’s like the sa– That’s probably one of the most haunting backstories. Like, okay.

Em: [laughs] Just walking around a tree until I get to leave.

Christine: How charming.

Em: Um, but no. So a champion tree is the largest of its kind. So out of six different species of tree on his property, the largest of its kind happen to be on his property. Um–

Christine: Like to the– this day? ’Cause like how did they even know that? Did anybody go wander west and find out? Like I think you–

Em: That’s the– That’s exactly what I was thinking of like–

Christine: Thank you ’cause like you could say that, and who’s gonna fucking test you on it?

Em: Yeah, back then like you could just say like, “Oh, it’s the biggest tree I’ve ever seen. So I guess that makes it the biggest.”

Christine: So it deserves– Yep, it deserves accolades, I guess.

Em: I will say it is apparently taken very seriously these days. The state (fun fact) with the big– with the most champion trees, uh, is Florida. And then Virginia is second.

Christine: Really?

Em: And, uh, they measure them based on their height, obviously, and then their crown spread, which is the, the–

Christine: Ooh! The bushy part.

Em: –the bushy part and how far it reaches over.

Christine: Right.

Em: And trunk circumference.

Christine: I love– I was gonna say, you gotta get the girth in there.

Em: I love the girth obviously.

Christine: Yeah, you gotta.

Em: Obviously. Obviously I do before everyone else. So, um–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Yeah. Six, allegedly, at the time. I don’t know how true it was though. The property also, to this day, has multiple buildings on it. I mean, this was thousands of acres–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –so there was– It was– It basically looked like a little neighborhood. Um, but there was–

Christine: [laughs] He was being a little bit selfish with his, I guess, acquisition of property, but whatever.

Em: There’s also like one other person in the whole country. I think he like– you know.

Christine: Exactly.

Em: Uh, I will say that, uh, very few sources talked about this, and I don’t want to be one of those people that like sugarcoats over history.

Christine: Okay.

Em: So, uh, I am gonna say that of the multiple buildings that are still on the site, many are, uh, living spaces for enslaved people.

Christine: Or were.

Em: Were.

Christine: Yeah. I hope.

Em: Um, again, very few sources talked about it, but one source was able to give a number that, in the property’s history, over 700 enslaved people worked there.

Christine: [sighs] Oh my god.

Em: And we do know that, um, some of the, uh, original owner’s children were of color, so think about how that came to be.

Christine: Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Um, anyway I just didn’t want to be, uh, one of the other sources that just like floats away from that.

Christine: Skipped it. Yeah, totally.

Em: Um, it’s shocking how few historical places cover it, uh–

Christine: That’s like really upsetting fact, yeah. I don’t like that.

Em: So a lot of times, I don’t even know, and– but if I, if I see it, I’ll say it. I just very rarely even shockingly see it. But–

Christine: It doesn’t even come across, yeah.

Em: But at the same time, if you think about it, I mean, this guy– Maybe a fucking pilgrim at this point, I don’t know, but–

Christine: I know, right? It’s basically–

Em: But he was building this massive plantation–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –at the, at the turn of the literal cen– at the turn of the country’s, uh, of the– the turn of the country, so–

Christine: [laughs] You know– We– I get it.

Em: You can put it together.

[glass clinks - start of ad break]

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]

Em: So this– Like I said, the family’s name was Ridgely. There are seven generations of Ridgelys who lived her back to back. Um, they lived here from 1790 to 1948, which is such a wild time.

Christine: Whoa.

Em: Like such a, such a big range.

Christine: That feels like a big range, yeah.

Em: And how it got the name “Hampton House” is that before the Ridgelys lived here, the land belonged to another guy. He was related to like Lord Baltimore. Um, I’m not even gonna ask you if you know who that is. Uh–

Christine: No. [laughs]

Em: Okay. [laughs] And–

Christine: Oh, wait, didn’t they name a city after him in Maryland?

Em: [laughs] For a second–

Christine: That’s all I know.

Em: For a second, I was like–

Christine: I know. I felt it. It felt bad. It felt really bad.

Em: “Christine, that’s Baltimore.” [laughs]

Christine: It felt ready bad. [laughs] I’m glad we’re moving on.

[laughs]

Em: I will say when I hear Lord Baltimore all I think is, um, “Miss Baltimore Crabs” from Hairspray. So–

Christine: Oh, I think of Lord Byron, but I still don’t know jack shit about him either, so I don’t know w-what good that is. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] How we made it is amazing.

Christine: I think Lord Byron was like a very questionable dude is what I know, I think. Maybe.

Em: I think anyone with the name Lord–

Christine: [laughs] That’s really true.

Em: –uh, including Lorde, the musician.

Christine: Oh, I thought you meant including the Lord.

Em: [laughs] Especially that fucking guy, yeah.

Christine: [laughs] Especially the Lord.

Em: Especially that guy. I got a few words for him. Um–

Christine: This is so stupid.

[laughs]

Em: So, uh, the guy who’s related to Lord Baltimore–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: He originally owned this land before the Ridgelys ever got there. And this piece of land is a part of so mu–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Like if you think the Ridgelys had a lot of acreage by owning this property, the Lord Baltimore guy had basically the entire state of Maryland it seems.

Christine: Cool.

Em: And this was just a sliver of his land.

Christine: Great. So, okay.

Em: But, but each part of his land that he owned, he somehow like found a way to insert the name Hampton into it. So he had Northampton, Oakhampton, and Hampton Court, and those were, those were his properties.

Christine: Okay. Interesting.

Em: Um, so this, this land we’re talking about today where the Hampton House sits is on Northampton.

Christine: Okay.

Em: He ends up, uh– It ends up being sold in the 1740s, about 300 years b– after Columbus, just so you know.

Christine: [laughs] Thank you.

Em: And, uh, it’s gets sold for 600 pounds sterling, which, I did the math for you. That at the time was $750, but in today’s world, that’s about $50,000.

Christine: Okay. 600 pound sterling? What does that even–?

Em: I don’t know what that means to this day. Please don’t ask me. Um–

Christine: But it sounds like they meant literal pounds of silver.

Em: Oh, wow.

Christine: Not like pounds as in the British currency. But I don’t know.

Em: I don’t know either. Lot of them were pretty British.

Christine: Maybe it did mean pounds because we were British back then. I don’t know, man.

Em: Yeah, and also that means like a pound of sterling is like essentially like around a dollar. A dollar for– I think– I don’t know. I don’t know which pound they mean.

Christine: I don’t know either.

Em: All I know is it equates to 50 grand. A

Christine: Okay.

Em: The Ridgelys bought it– Maybe for that 50 grand –

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and they built the mansion on it – again, on the part of the land called Northampton, so I’m assuming that they named it Hampton House as an homage to the original name.

Christine: Right, that would make sense. Yeah.

Em: I have to assume. Because I saw one website where it was like, “how did it get its name?” and then it only told me like what feels like half the story. So, there you go.

Christine: [laughs] Okay. We’ll just fill in the blanks.

Em: Uh, the first Ridgely, Colonel Ridgely, who I mentioned, he– Their family fucking loves the name “Charles” by the way. I’m so fucking over it.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um, and they also love the name “John.” because remember I told you there were seven generations of Ridgelys?

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: It goes Charles, Charles, John, Charles, John, John, and I think another Charles. And then one of those Johns had–

Christine: ♪ Jekyll, Jekyll, Hyde, Jekyll, Hyde, Hyde, Jekyll ♪♪

Em: [laughs] And one of those Johns, by the way, had two sons, both named Charles. So–

Christine: You gotta get it– give it a rest, people.

Em: Like try Edward or some other old name. Just like– Come on.

Christine: George?

Em: Fucking George. So, uh, the Ridgelys bought it. This is– Uh, the first guy who owned it was a Charles, and on top of that, not only is he the first Charles of the many Charleses to own this house, he’s– His father was also Charles, so he’s technically Charles II. But he’s the first at the house.

Christine: He’s Chuck, Chuck Junior.

Em: Chuck Junior. H-he actually did have a nickname apparently in town called Charles the Merchant. He was also–

Christine: That’s so clever [laughs] and original and catchy also.

Em: [laughs] And not at all vague since we had a conversation about the word merchant last time.

Christine: Right. [laughs]

Em: He was also a-apparently called Charles the Builder, Charles the Mariner– He– Just insert a– an occupation, and he was known as that.

Christine: He should have been Charles of All Trade or something. Jack of all t–

Em: Ooh.

Christine: Like they could have come up with so many better names than fucking Charles the Merchant.

Em: Charles the Businessman. Charles the Handyman. Yeah.

Christine: Charles the Entrepreneur.

Em: And his father, by the way, Charles number one, who has nothing to do with this property, his name was Charles the Planter. Can you imagine like you’re a planter and your son’s a fucking b-builder?

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It sounds like we really upgraded. Um, so he was one who ran the iron operations during the Revolutionary War, so he is very successful. That’s how he can afford to build this thing. He dies right as it, uh, as it’s opened for the first time. And by the time he died, he owned like 25,000 acres of land, so that’s why I’m saying place is fucking massive.

Christine: Oof. Right.

Em: When he dies, his nephew tried to throw him the largest funeral any country had ever seen.

Christine: I’m so tired of these pe– I mean, come on. Really? Is it– You’re just trying to one up each other now.

Em: Like, like we get it. You have money. Like you just wanna–

Christine: We get it.

Em: And also, again, you don’t have to try that hard. This is a new country. Like it’s fine.

Christine: And also he’s dead. He can’t– There– You don’t– He won’t even know.

Em: It’s not like– And also I don’t know if he was trying to impress him to like get in the will, but spoiler alert, he ends up in the will, so maybe it worked. I don’t fucking know.

Christine: Maybe.

Em: But he tried to throw the largest funeral. And then again, here’s a source that gave me the first half of a very interesting story and then didn’t tell me the rest.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I don’t fucking know if– how successful this funeral was. Um–

Christine: Oh, I see. So we just don’t know what happened. We just know that there was a pa–

Em: Which– We just know that he wanted to.

Christine: There was a plan for a party.

Em: [laughs] There were concepts of fucking plans, yes.

Christine: Right, depending on like the level of, uh, ADHD and/or other mental illnesses he had, who knows if it ever happened. Like we just don’t know. There’s no way to know.

Em: I saw, um– This is like so chronically online of me to say, but there was a TikTok I saw of another podcast.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: And I don’t know the name of this podcast, but I saw like the little clip float by. And I thought it was funny–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –that they were saying every– the reason why our country has the most people with ADHD is because we are descendants of the people with the most ADHD from England. And they were all just like down to like just get on a fucking boat.

Christine: [laughs] “Let’s go! Let’s go! Bring the kids!”

Em: Like, “I’ll get on a boat. We’ll figure it out later. That’s fine. Let’s just go. Let’s just see what happens.”

Christine: “Yeah, who knows what, what’ll be on the other side? We’re pilgrims.” Oh, it all makes sense.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’m getting it now, okay.

Em: It’s all connecting.

Christine: A-ha.

Em: Um, anyway, so he wants to– This guy maybe had ADHD ’cause he’s like, “The party I’m gonna throw for you when you die is insane,” but then like–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: And then we hea– never hear about it, so–

Christine: Which actually is even smarter to just like talk big game about the party and then when he’s dead be like, “Cancelled. Sorry, [fake coughs] I’m not feeling well. Anyway.”

Em: [laughs] Uh, that same nephew did help fulfill part of the will, which is to build a family cemetery on the property. And then that original Charles who owned the house is the first person to be buried there.

Christine: Oh?

Em: Um, he– The guy who died, he also gave his wife eight acres – of like 25,000, by the way– eight acres quote, “for a garden with as many outhouses as she thinks necessary.”

Christine: [laughs] Wow, that’s thoughtful.

Em: So she gets a bunch of outhouses, and his nephew gets everything else, I guess.

Christine: Yeah, but she gets as many outhouses as she thinks is necessary. So.

Em: That’s true. You know what? She will be convenienced in that garden, I’ll tell you.

Christine: Would that be– That– Wouldn’t that be nice.

Em: Uh, his– the wife, I guess she also was like the first in line to inherit the rest of everything, but I think she just didn’t want to take care of a c– modeled-after-a-castle building.

Christine: No.

Em: And she was like, “That’s a lot of work. You have ADHD. You might be better at this than I am. So here, nephew. You take the keys. I’m gonna go somewhere else.”

Christine: Yeah. Into my outhouses.

Em: For people who care and are in– near Maryland, um, apparently, she moved to a property called Auburn, which is now on the Towson State University campus. It’s still there. But that’s–

Christine: Oh! I wonder if that’s haunted.

Em: It sounds like it.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: But that’s where she moved instead of the Hampton House. So the nephew now is own– the second owner of this house. His name is also Charles, of course.

Christine: Of course.

Em: He was, uh, the 15th governor of Maryland, and he– whi-which comes into play later, but he’s the governor of Maryland. He has 11 kids, and after him, descendants kept the house in the family for as long as possible, but that sometimes meant having to sell off pieces of the land or adding side hustles on the property just to make ends meet because it was so fucking big it was so hard to maintain.

Christine: Mm.

Em: So like one time, they opened a dairy, and they like sold, sold milk in the area.

Christine: Oh.

Em: They had their iron operations–

Christine: Charles the Milkman.

Em: [laughs] Charles the Milker.

Christine: [laughs] Oh god.

Em: Uh, what else. They– Oh, they had an, an apple cider press where they would just press cider. That was– That sounds lovely.

Christine: Oh, cool! That’s nice.

Em: Um, so i-in 1948– I’m surprised they were able to survive through the Depression with how much that thing cost. But I guess– It sounds like they were struggling for money at this point. Like the money didn’t make it all seven generations.

Christine: Right.

Em: Um, but they were still able to make it through the Depression. That’s pretty impressive.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So by 1948, it just finally became too expensive. And so one of the Johns of the family line–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –he sold it to the Avalon Foundation, and they gave the house over to the government who made the property a National Historic Site. So–

Christine: Okay.

Em: Um, they had a preservation society come in in the ‘70s who took care of it. They also did ghost tours in the ’70s, so–

Christine: Hey– Oh! I bet those were cra– I bet those were wild. I bet there was no fucking like rules, you know.

Em: No, just–

Christine: Who knows what they were doing.

Em: Sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and a couple ghosts.

Christine: The ghost hunt, yeah. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] And I will say the turn of the decade though, in 1979, the Park Service took it over from the preservation society originally taking– uh, handling it. And the Park Service really, uh, whipped that thing into g– They were like, “No sex, drugs, rock and rolls, and ghost.”

Christine: Oh, I see. Okay.

Em: They took over the mansion and the surviving 60 acres. Used to be 25,000 acres, but now th– we have 60.

Christine: Jeez.

Em: So they were really slowly selling off each piece of land just to keep this thing moving. And they do not like the idea that this is haunted. The Park Service denies that the ghosts exist altogether.

Christine: Oh, man. Lame.

Em: Um, I know. However, here are the listed ghosts.

Christine: Okay, good.

[glass clinks - start of ad break]

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]

Em: So I’m sure there are several other spirits here that we’re not gonna cover. I mean, there’s literally s– Again, 700 enslaved people lived here.

Christine: Right.

Em: Um, then there’s the several relatives of the Ridgelys who grew up here or would visit often. The carpenter who drunk drove his horse.

Christine: Oh god.

Em: Um, there’s, there’s a lot of people here.

Christine: [petting Junie, a white cat, who is mostly off-camera] Junie’s here!

Em: Ooh!

Christine: Sorry, if you see me, I’m trying to be–

Em: A phantom. A lady in white who is walking through.

Christine: A lady in white.

Em: Remember when we thought Junie was a lady?

Christine: I wish you would stop misgendering my cat, you asshole.

Em: You know what? In the first six months of that cat’s life, I was properly gendering the cat, so, uh, back when Junie was a she/her.

Christine: I don’t know about that. Remember when I told you on the podcast that Juniper was changing his pronouns and you were like, “What the fuck?” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] “Before me? Hang on.”

Christine: Yeah, no. It was definitely after you. It was like, “Oh, you’re changing your pronouns? Same with my cat.” [laughs]

Em: A sweet little kitty cat.

Christine: This is–

Em: Um, oh my god. I have to tell you, Christine.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: You’ve heard of Spark Paws, right?

Christine: No.

Em: If– Uh, it’s a– This– This is not an ad, by the way. I just, I just love them. Um, it’s–

Christine: That would be such a good segue though–

Em: [laughs] Such a good segue.

Christine: –if that was an ad.

Em: If onl– Junie is a paid actor.

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] I wish she was.

Em: Um, no, Spark, Spark Paws is a, a website where you can get matching like sweatshirts with your dog.

Christine: Stop it.

Em: I have– It’s been on my radar for a very long time. I’m just–

Christine: I can’t believe you’ve never told me about this. This is– I can’t believe the world hasn’t told me about this quite frankly.

Em: I will tell you I have bought sweatshirts from that place for myself and just didn’t get the dog one ’cause I don’t have one.

Christine: [laughs] [typing on computer] Spark Paws.

Em: Um, but I’ll tell you if you get one – sensory-wise: the softest, butteriest–

Christine: Really?

Em: –e-easily one of the softest sweatshirts I’ve ever owned.

Christine: Really?

Em: Yeah. Um.

Christine: Okay, Spark Paws, are you listening? We’d love to work with you, I guess.

Em: I only mention it because yesterday, Allison and I were out, and we saw a dog and a– and their owner in Spark Paws hoodies. They were in tie-dye green hoodies together.

Christine: [laughs] Come on.

Em: And this little puppy dog was the sweetest, sweetest little puppy I’ve ever seen in my entire life. He did the nose boops. He gave tiny little licks.

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god.

Em: Oh, he like immediately flopped over and showed his tummy. Oh my god.

Christine: Oh my gosh.

Em: And I remember thinking, [singing “Life Is Worth Living” by Justin Bieber] ♪ Life is worth living. ♪♪ [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I just was like– He was just the sweetest little puppy. Oh, his name was Moose. Oh!

Christine: Oh god, that’s a good name.

Em: Anyway, um, I saw your cat–

Christine: Well, I’m looking at their Christmas lineup right now, so don’t worry.

Em: I’m not kidding. I promise you. I promise you. You’ve never felt a softer sweatshirt. I– This is not an ad. I swear to god it’s not an ad.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: But like th– It’s really– If anyone wants a sweatshirt, whether or not you have a pet, as someone who has done this, please go get one ’cause it’s a dream.

Christine: I’m so intrigued. Okay, uh– Yeah, there’s a human hoodie and a dog hoodie. I love this. And, uh, they’re having a sale, so let’s get on it.

Em: If we do ever do, um, an ad for them, just know that it was because of this conversation, and–

Christine: Absolutely. Yeah, th– that would be way too outrageous if it was some other reason.

Em: [laughs] Okay, um, where were we? Sorry, I saw your cat, and then I thought about that little puppy. Oh, man. Really got me going.

Christine: Now I can’t stop looking at other people’s puppies. Oh my lordy.

Em: Let’s see. Where were we? Oh, about the ghosts. I was about to really get into the ghosts. Um, okay. The first ghost I’m going to tell you about – her name is Priscilla, and she was one of the wives who lived in the house. She was married to a Charles, and, uh, one time there was a family member at the house. And she heard a faint knocking at the door of the mansion–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –which I imagine the faint knocking of a mansion door is [makes deep booming knocking sound] “Goong, goong, goong.”

Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say probably ’cause she’s 30 rooms away, but okay. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Uh, when she got to the door, I d– I guess they didn’t have fucking peepholes because she just opened the door for anyone.

Christine: Just swung it on open.

Em: Uh, and it was this like old frail woman in 1900– or 1800s garb, like a gray dress.

Christine: And what year is this?

Em: I don’t know. It said in 1800s garb as if that’s supposed to be shocking, so let’s say this was in the 1900s.

Christine: Oh, that wa– That’s what I was wondering. I was like, “Is that– Was that, was that bad? Was that–“

Em: “Was that, was that scary?”

Christine: “Was that alarming?”

Em: Yeah, maybe that was actually like–

Christine: Or was that like, “Oh, hey, Doris,” you know?

[laughs]

Em: It was like, “Girl, you are ahead of your time with this dress.” [laughs]

Christine: “Girl, wh– We told you to stop dressing like that, you little harlot.”

Em: Um, so they found this frail old woman in, I’m assuming, old clothes–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –just staring at her and not saying a single thing.

Christine: Cool. That’s nice.

Em: The woman was like, “Do you want to come in? Are you okay? What’s going on?” And then the woman vanished.

Christine: Oh, ‘kay. That’s weird.

Em: And I guess after enough descriptions, uh, it’s been discovered that this woman was Priscilla Ridgely, wife of Charles Ridgely. And people still see her in the mansion. I guess once she–

Christine: Oh my god. I thought Priscilla was the one opening the door. I’m so stupid. Okay.

Em: No, sorry. No, I made that confusi– No, Priscilla’s the ghost, but, um, I guess, like a vampire, once she was invited in that one time, people now see her in the mansion all the time.

Christine: Well, what did you think was gonna happen, people? You know, I told you not to open the door. And you don’t listen to me, and look what happens.

Em: Uh, so sh– people now see her in her either really old and ugly or really slammin’ 1800s dress.

Christine: Oh, man.

Em: And she’s heard like– Because she– it’s a long dress, you can hear it like sweeping across the floor.

Christine: Oh, swooshing, Eugh.

Em: Yuck.

Christine: That’s freaky.

Em: Um, another ghost–

Christine: Especially at night. Imagine like [makes swooshing sounds] like coming down the hallway. Forget it.

Em: It’s like clothes– Here. Hold on. Like this, this– Like this, everybody. [rubs T-shirt against itself, making soft fabric rustling sounds]

Christine: The Spark Paws hoodie is coming toward you. Glow in the dark, glow in the dark edition. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] We all know if I were a ghost, there would ne– I would never just be a, a black shadow. I would be glowing–

Christine: God, it would just– Your fucking wardrobe would be so annoying. You’d be like in a different outfit every day, and then everyone would be like, “Is it the same ghost?” And I’d be like, “It is. I’m telling you.”

Em: I would be bioluminescent, for sure. [laughs]

Christine: Remem– [laughs] Remember ADHD?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Ghosts can have it too.

Em: I’m still waiting for there– for someone to have a ghost of a shadow figure who, um, forgets that he’s naked in front of you and like has to like cover himself and then runs away.

Christine: Oh, wasn’t that a thing in the White House?

Em: Does– Oh!

Christine: Didn’t–?

Em: No. No, what you’re thinking is the guy who– He saw–

Christine: Winston Churchill was like taking a bath or something.

Em: Yeah, he saw a ghost while he was in the bath. But I would like to see a ghost who forgot his ghost clothes.

Christine: Oh, and is like, “Not again.”

Em: And then, and then we’re both scared. You know, he like–

Christine: Oh, right. Then I’m, then I’m really scared. Yeah, that’s true.

Em: That ghost also has to go to bed not being able to stop thinking about me because I’m already go– I’m already not gonna stop thinking about him.

Christine: Oh, very good point.

Em: But now we’re both traumatized. So.

Christine: You just flipped the script. Yeah, yeah.

Em: Yeah. Um, okay. And here’s, I think maybe one of my f–

Christine: And he will not be invited in, by the way. If he’s standing there naked, I’m not gonna say, “Well, you wanna come on in?” Like no.

Em: Yeah, “Let me get you a towel.” No.

Christine: Now, you people better listen to me. Don’t open the door. If there’s a nude man there, certainly don’t invite him inside.

Em: Oh my– Yes, yes, ye– I– [sighs]

Christine: That’s good advice, I think.

Em: [applauds] Famous, famous words.

Christine: Thank you.

Em: Another time in the 1920s or 1930s (we’re unsure), uh, one of the– Oh, there was a woman who I guess was a friend of the family, and she’d been told to stop by whenever she wants or– I think they knew that she liked historical homes. She had the–

Christine: That seems like something a lady would make up like, “Oh, no. They– I know the family. They told me I can come anytime I want.” Like, “Okay, lady. W– Get off our property.”

Em: Well, it worked. It worked.

Christine: [laughs] Uh-huh. I’m sure.

Em: Because– And also, this was the era where people just popped by, I guess.

Christine: That’s true. That’s true.

Em: So I don’t know.

Christine: The boundaries weren’t quite there yet.

Em: Part of me wishes we still popped by each other’s houses, but then, in, in actuality, I’m like, “Oh, never mind.”

Christine: One time, you said that in front of me and Blaise, and that night, Blaise was like, “Is Em gonna come over to our house in the middle of the night?” And I was like, “Honestly, maybe.” So.

Em: At this point, I have earned that. I– At this point–

Christine: Well, well, yeah. This was way at the beginning when Blaise was like, “So what’s the deal?” And I was like, “It seems like Em is very serious about just occasionally popping by.” [laughs] So Blaise is like, "Okay."

Em: And then you moved across the country.

Christine: [laughs] I know. Well, Em, maybe we should do a little, uh, little puzzle piecing, you know. Figure it out.

Em: Well, I’m saying I think, uh, I scared you away, so.

Christine: That’s r– That’s, that’s maybe it, maybe not.

Em: So a– She popped by, and this butler answered the door and said, “Oh, the family’s not home,” but he would give her a quick tour since I guess she’d gotten the initial okay from them. Um, but he–

Christine: He’s a gullible fucking butler.

Em: [laughs] Well, so I guess he gave like really, um, very insightful information about the property. He was telling her about the family and told her different stories about all the Ridgelys that have lived here. And so when she tried to tip him, he refused to take it.

Christine: Aw.

Em: And then days later when she called to thank the family for like having such like a knowledgeable butler–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –they were like, “We don’t have a butler.”

Christine: [laughs] “I wish we had a butler, but we don’t have a butler.”

Em: Can you imagine if it was just someone else who also broke in and now he has to like play the game?

Christine: I was gonna say. Well, now I’d be worried there’s a man in my house, [laughs] but I guess, I guess maybe on that property a ghost butler just makes sense.

Em: I guess they– Uh, the, the woman who had stopped by described the butler to them, and she said, “Oh my god. That was our last butler, Tom. He died 30 years ago.”

Christine: [gasps] Oh, shit.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: He’s still doing his, doing his job, man.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: That’s creepy. That’s very creepy to be like– uh, get a whole tour from somebody.

Em: Now, that’s an intrusive thought. I would be like, “What if I am just in working mode for the rest of my life? For the rest of eternity?”

Christine: I’d spend the rest of my life– Yeah. 100%. I would just be like, “Wow. Okay. Who’s real? Who’s not?”

Em: Um, yeah. I, I really feel for Tom. [laughs] I feel bad for him.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Uh, in the 1800s– Remember I said that one of the Ridgelys was a governor?

Christine: Yes.

Em: So I guess he was friends with other governors, and one of his friends was this guy named Governor Swan. And Governor Swan had a daughter, which finally we can agree on the world’s worst name.

Christine: Oh?

Em: Um, this is Cygnet, um, C-Y-G-N-E-T.

Christine: [laughs] Oh, yeah. That’s a name.

Em: And I will say– This is a fun fact. I almost am wondering if this isn’t her name and like the internet created it.

Christine: Oh?

Em: Um, because their last name is Swan. Her first name is Cygnet, which apparently means young swan.

Christine: Yeah, that’s a baby swan. Yeah, that’s a baby swan.

Em: In my mind, I’m like that’s either really precious or people have just labeled her Cynet as like Jane Doe.

Christine: Well, I wonder if that was just her nickname. Like she’s just the baby swan; we call her Cygnet. I don’t know.

Em: Well, at any– at some point, uh, Cygnet contracts some sort of mysterious illness, probably TB, and the Ridgelys offer Cygnet to move onto the property because of all their open fields and fresh air.

Christine: [laughs] “Here. Use this field.”

Em: [laughs] “Use this field. My wife is in the garden with her outhouse if you ne-need help.”

Christine: “There’s so many outhouses. Don’t worry.” [laughs]

Em: Uh, one morning apparently, she woke up after having a really bad dream where a man with a scythe was chasing her through a field, screaming that he was gonna kill her.

Christine: Oh. [gasps]

Em: And, by the way, a man with a scythe is the Grim Reaper.

Christine: Yeah, by the way.

Em: Um, to cheer her up, the family threw her a party.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I like how they’re like–

Christine: What? [laughs]

Em: I can’t imagine having a bad dream and then Allison throws me a fucking party. Um, they–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: They’d be like, “Okay, get over it. It’s fine. You’re, uh– You had a dream.”

Christine: Yeah, I feel like that’s, uh, an interesting reaction to have. I feel like I’d be like, “But please don’t throw me a party. I’m– just had a bad dream. That’s it. Like please do– Oh no, balloons? Again?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Like we don’t need a party after every fucking bad dream I have.”

Em: Can you imagine if you then go to somebody else’s house and you’re like, “Oh, I had a bad dream. Sorry, please don’t throw me a party.” They’d be like, “Why would we throw you a party?” [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] “I wasn’t planning on it, you weirdo.”

Em: Well, so anyway, she has a bad dream. They decide that they’re gonna throw a party. Maybe she was just inconsolable, and they were like, “We’ll give you whatever you want. Shut the fuck up.”

Christine: It, it could– “If you stop talking about the man with the scythe, we’ll throw you a party.”

Em: Yeah, um.

Christine: “That’s the deal.”

Em: So when people started arriving, Cygnet never came downstairs.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And remember she had that mysterious illness– [Em coughs] as I cough. So that night, the woman who was throwing the party for them– uh, for Cygnet, uh, went upstairs to be like, “Hey, your friends are coming in. Like get ready. Are, are you coming downstairs soon?”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And they found Cygnet sitting at the vanity, holding her hairbrush, slumped over dead.

Christine: [gasps] Oh no.

Em: And so, awkward ending to that party, having to go tell everyone, “Time to go.”

Christine: Oh no, and now you have to throw a party for all the people are sad that she died. [laughs]

Em: You know what? This might have actually been the largest funeral that the country had ever seen. Took a few generations, but we got there.

Christine: [laughs] I’m not meaning, [laughs] I’m not meaning to laugh, but like– Oh my god. This is just that– Talk about– This feels like a Modern Family episode but like escalated.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: It like escalated out of control. Like let’s throw a party–

Em: You know it would be Cam too. Cam would be–

Christine: Right? Oh my god. [laughs]

Em: –dead at the vanity upstairs.

Christine: So many f-foibles, you know, and it’s like, “Oh, gosh.” I mean, this is just ridiculous. And then they had to th– Oh, man. All of this is just making me cringe a little bit. It just feels like a lot.

Em: Well, to this day, people now see Cygnet in her room in her dress, brushing her hair, like getting ready for her party.

Christine: Stop, that’s– Wait, that’s– Okay. Well, that’s really fucking sad. Cool.

Em: People also hear music playing in her bedroom. And they don’t know if it’s like music she was listening to to get ready or maybe it was music that was playing downstairs when she passed.

Christine: Aww.

Em: But people now hear harpsichord, specifically, music.

Christine: Aw, you’re probably right that it’s like–

Em: Connected to the story.

Christine: –music from her party. Yeah, that’s sad.

Em: Is a harpsichord the same as a harp?

Christine: No, a harpsichord, I believe, is like a piano.

Em: Why wouldn’t you just call it a fucking piano? Why would you call it–

Christine: [laughs] I don’t–

Em: That’s like, that’s like saying, “I’m going to play the triangle. I call it guitar.” Like what? We already have one of those. What are you talking about?

Christine: [laughs] [unintelligible while laughing] Okay, well it’s like, it’s like a harp that’s shaped like a piano.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Like you hit the key, and it like strums a harp instead of like– Okay, you know what? I don’t know. Stop asking me questions. [laughs]

Em: Okay, yeah. I play the xylophone. I’m gonna call it the drum ’cause it looks like a drum. But, um, we haven’t had one of those yet, so.

Christine: Oh god.

[glass clinks - start of ad break]

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]

Em: Another, uh– Or one person who had a specific encounter– There was a former park ranger– ’Cause remember, the park rangers are now in charge of this property. One like former park ranger, uh, when he used to work there, I guess he was often the one that was requested to go check out the property after like someone had paranormal activity. Which I love that they’re denying–

Christine: Oh! Which he didn’t believe in ’cause he’s the parks, right?

Em: Right.

Christine: Yeah. Silly.

Em: It’s interesting that they deny activity but also they have like a man on the ground in case someone ever has a report.

Christine: I wonder if he’s like the most staunchly anti-ghost one–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –so they’re like, “You got do it then, Bill, if you’re so fucking convinced there’s no ghost every time something happens. Why don’t you get on the ground and go check it out?”

Em: Mm. Or I would think it’s the oppo–

Christine: And you know every now and then, he’s like– [frightened whimpering]

Em: I would think it’s the opposite where like he’s the only park ranger like desperate to talk about the ghost, and they’re like, “Look, we’ll throw you a bone. Just go fucking see if there’s a ghost.”

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, he’s just the intern. He just wants to talk about ghosts, and they’re like, “Just get out of the office.

Em: [laughs] Well, so when he worked there, he had to actually stay– They like hired him as like additional security one time for the house because a needlepoint exhibit was in town. And–

Christine: I mean, listen. I’m in. Fuck yeah.

Em: [laughs] And, and so they needed security for the needlepoint exhibit.

Christine: [laughs] There’s a lot of sharp objects, Em. Come on.

Em: I– You know what? You could get stabbed. Someone could absolutely stab you.

Christine: And honestly, imagine all these l– all these passionate ladies under one roof. I mean, come on.

Em: Yeah, it’s– There– Yarn will be flying for sure.

Christine: Things will go wrong. There’s no yarn in needlepoint. Now, let’s not be ridiculous.

Em: Thread?

Christine: I think it’s called thread. Now, I don’t actually know what it’s called, [laughs] but I think it’s– Actually, I’m not kidding. I’m pretty sure it’s called floss.

Em: I mean, y-yarn and thread, it’s, it’s like guitars and harps, you know?

Christine: No, but I think it’s actually called fl– No, I’m serious, and you’re gonna think I’m making that up.

Em: Floss?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: We also already had floss. Why are we cal– Okay, well anyway.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: So anyway, the ne–

Christine: I think maybe we named floss after the thread kind.

Em: Dental floss.

Christine: Exact– That’s it! You nailed it. You got there. I didn’t get it ’til that. Yes, dental floss.

Em: Huh.

Christine: It’s like when you call it–

Em: So like would a harpsichord be “piano harp”?

Christine: A “harp piano.” Or dental– Oh, yeah. “Piano harp.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like dental dam– Well, okay. Let’s talk about something else now. Yeah.

Em: Hmm. Interesting.

Christine: I’m thinking now. I’m thinking.

Em: Um. [laughs] Uh, okay. So he needed to be extra security, so he stayed at the mansion while it was having this exhibit.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And, uh, so he stayed at the mansion. He was staying on the third floor, and the room next to him had a bunch of hooks on the wall that were holding like old race horse harnesses. The family was into racehorsing because of course they were.

Christine: Of course they were.

Em: Um, and I guess– This is an actual quote from this park ranger. He said, “We had just laid down to a– to attempt to sleep when I heard what sounded like footsteps entering the room next to ours. There was a sound as if someone had taken their hand and run it down the wall of horse harnesses, causing them to swing on the pegs.”

Christine: Eugh.

Em: “This was followed by footsteps exiting the room.” That feels like an older brother. Like they come in just to piss you off and then leave.

Christine: They’re just like touch your stuff. “I touched everything, you know,” and then walk out. Yeah.

Em: Yeah, it’s like you heard footsteps go in–

Christine: Well, it sounds more like a younger brother. Mm.

Em: Yeah. You heard footsteps go in and then leave, and the only difference is that all your shit is being moved around. Um–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Apparently, the sound–

Christine: Or that like they licked it or something.

Em: [laughs] The park ranger heard the sound of these horse ra– these horse harnesses swinging around. So he–

Christine: Jingle jangling.

Em: –jumped out of bed. He ran to the hallway and looked into the room, and the harnesses were still swinging on the hooks.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And right after that, a grandfather clock, which had not worked in a century, began to chime.

Christine: Ew! Sorry, that was so loud. Oh, that’s unpleasant.

Em: So he was like, “Fuck that,” and he left. Um, other than that, doors, of course, open and close, latch and unlatch. Um, the– Apparently, latches lifting is like a big thing there. That happens a lot. Uh, people will hear chains hitting walls, which I don’t–

Christine: Oh, maybe it’s that horse harness thing.

Em: Oh, maybe it is. Maybe it is.

Christine: Race horse thing.

Em: Uh, apparently, the bar that– like the iron bar that opens the Great Hall is heard opening itself. So like the Great Hall just, I guess, opens itself up for the ghosts.

Christine: Man, for this poor security guard, he’s like, “I just– The needlepointers– It’s not even about them anymore.”

Em: You know what? Maybe that’s why they needed more security ’cause now there’s like new energy in the house or something.

Christine: Yeah, and things keep opening, and– I– Yeah.

Em: But the park rangers would never admit that, of course.

Christine: No, of course not. That would be ridiculous.

Em: So the– Oh, and then one time– This was like a, a major thing is that, uh, a display rack got knocked over, but apparently ev– not just knocked over, but everything like flew off of this display rack. The entire room was a mess after this display rack had finally been perfectly pieced together, and then every item just went flying across the room.

Christine: [sighs] What could that be?

Em: I don’t know. Another little brother move, for sure. Um–

Christine: Yeah, like this [unintelligible] starting tick– T me right off, you know.

Em: [laughs] Frickin’ T O-ed, I’ll tell ya.

Christine: I’m frickin’ T O-ed is what I’ll tell ya. Yes.

Em: Uh, one especially weird thing is that people have heard the sound of a chandelier crashing when there’s no chandelier– or there’s no chandelier crashing at the very least. But people will hear it smashing to the ground. And when that’s–

Christine: What?

Em: When that’s heard, apparently, it’s a bit of a harbinger for death.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Uh, it’s a bit of an omen because anytime someone has heard a chandelier crashing, it predicts the upcoming death of the wife of the owner of the house.

Christine: Ah! Of like the current owner?

Em: Of the current owner. Can you imagine like–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –every time the chandelier rattled at all, you’d go, “Oh my god.” Like you–

Christine: Oh my god. Imagine an earthquake comes through, and you’re like, “This is the end.”

Em: This is it.”

Christine: Oh lord. Oh lord.

Em: Um, apparently, one of the wives heard the crash and within 24 hours was dead. So–

Christine: So you hear it too. Like as the wife, you would hear it.

Em: I guess she heard it, yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know if– It seems like there were like– The source I read, if I’m reading it correctly, it sounds like this happened to five of the wives of seven generations.

Christine: Oof. That’s gotta be unsettling every single time. Yeah.

Em: Um, so yeah. I can’t– I’m– I would just be like, “Get rid of all the chandeliers.”

Christine: I’d be like, “I know a loophole. It’s called, ‘let’s not get married but pretend we’re married. Then they can’t kill me.’ Hee-hee-hee-hee-hee.”

Em: [laughs] “How about you buy me a different mansion, and I’ll live there alone, away from you?”

Christine: Yeah, that’s– I’ll live in the outhouse for a few years until we’re past this.

Em: And part of me is like was that supposed to be scary or is that like some ghost being like a homegirl being like, “Just wanted to give you a heads up. It’s coming. But like we’re watching.”

Christine: Oh, right. Oh, oh my god. Is it the guy with the scythe? And he like cut the chandelier down with his scythe?

Em: Oh, shit. Oh, maybe.

Christine: Wait, and remember she saw the scythe guy and then she died. What’s her name?

Em: That’s true, yeah. And she was just a little girl too.

Christine: Oh my gosh.

Em: Her name was Cygnet. I could never forget it. Don’t worry.

Christine: [laughs] That’s right. I knew that.

Em: [laughs] “What was her name?” It’s the– It’s a– It means bird.

Christine: Okay, but I’m gonna feel so sad if there’s a Cygnet out there listening and feels like we’ve– are bullying their name. ’Cause I think it’s a cute name.

Em: That’s great for you.

Christine: I’ll be on the side of Cygnet. It’s great for me. If, if there is someone out there named Cygnet, I want you to know out there that I actually do like the name. And if you’re a Scorpio, I’m also fine with that. I feel like I need to make you–

Em: Wow, that’s a lot of–

Christine: [laughs] I need to make you understand that–

Em: You have something brown on your nose, Christine. That’s weird.

Christine: [laughs] No, I know! But it’s like I, I have to balance out all the ang– all the hatred that you bring to the table. [laughs]

Em: The one, the one thing I like about the name Cygnet is when written out, it looks like the word “cyber.” And I do like that.

Christine: No, it doesn’t. [laughs]

Em: The C-Y? My first thought is, “I th– I want to pronounce it like cyber.”

Christine: I guess, yeah.

Em: You know what/ I’m sorry. You’re right.

Christine: It has two of the same letters. It has two of the same letters. [laughs]

Em: I’m wrong. Therefore, there’s actually zero reason why I like the name. How about that? iI fe– Appar–

Christine: Well, now, now who’s brown-nosing? Oh, well it looks like cyber. Okay, sure.

Em: That was my first thought when I first saw it. I was like, “Oh, that’s kinda cool.” And then I heard it was ca– pronounced “sig-net,” and I went, “Oh, never mind.” Um, so–

Christine: [laughs] “Never mind. I don’t like it anymore.” [sighs]

Em: When one of the owners of the house, one of the Charles– When he was out of town, a, uh– so the, the chandelier sound didn’t happen for him, but when he died (and he was not actually in the home (he died somewhere else)–

Christine: Right.

Em: –the caretaker of the house found out about his death because they heard the sound of a phantom carriage coming home.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And they heard bells on the carriage. They heard horses running up to the house as if the coach was approaching, and, uh, when they looked out the window–

Christine: What?

Em: –they saw nothing. Nobody was nearby. But the next day, they heard of Charles’s death.

Christine: Oh.

Em: So it sounds like the women get like preemptively warned, but then–

Christine: Right.

Em: –a-at least one of the owners of the house still found a way to let them know that he had died.

Christine: Jeez. I mean, it really feels like there’s a lot of like Grim Reaper energy at this place. Like they’re always kind of like letting you know that death is lurking, you know?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like they’re– Eugh. It’s just creepy.

Em: You’re never alone.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and of course, the Park Service, uh, claims that it’s not haunted. One of them literally, when asked by a reporter, said, “We don’t discuss it.” So, um, sounds like they actually do think it’s haunted, and they just don’t want to admit it.

Christine: [sighs] It seems like they can’t– Yeah, they probably can’t avoid it at a certain point. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. Anyway, that is the Hampton House.

Christine: That is something else. The, the, the omens of death are– I don’t know. Gave me a little bit of the creeps, but, um. Would you want to know that you were about to die? [laughs] I guess it’s a stupid question, but I don’t know.

Em: I think about that all the time. I think about that all the time. Uh, yeah. I don’t know. I think, I think it would certainly ruin my quality of life while I had l–

Christine: Yes, for the last–

Em: –because I would be such a fucking mess all the time think–

Christine: Yes.

Em: Even if I had only one piece of information like, “Oh, this is how you die,” then I’d be terrified of every moment I was near that thing, you know?

Christine: [sighs] Gosh. I totally agree. I don’t think that it– Talk about intrusive thoughts. That’s a lot of people’s intrusive thoughts like, “What’s gonna kill me?” So I think maybe it’s– You’re probably right. It’s probably safer to not even go there.

Em: I will say I have intrusive thoughts about, um, uh, or– What my, my version of it, I guess. Uh, I’ve told you about this before, I think, but my therapist has told me about– that I am constantly in a state of pre-grief because I am–

Christine: Oh good. [laughs] That’s– That sounds really bad.

Em: But I, I think that’s one of the reasons why like when, when people pass away, I like have like a really weird reaction to it. Like I don’t seem to respond the same way people do.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And I, I think it’s because I’m always constantly like prepared for it to happen.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And then when it does, it’s like, “Okay, that’s exactly what I saw coming.” Um, but I’m– So like I– And I guess in that way, that’s an intrusive thought because I do–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I am constantly assuming when I see people, I’m like, “Oh, this is the last time for sure.” Like I just a– I’m always thinking that.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s how–

Em: Anyway, people, look up pre-grief because it’s, uh, rocking my shit right now.

Christine: Well, I gotta look that up later ’cause I’m having some tummy aches now. Okay.

Em: [laughs]

Christine’s Story – Sarah Lee Stern

Christine: [laughs] Okay, uh. I have a story for you today. This is the story of Sarah Lee Stern. And it takes place in Neptune City, New Jersey. And it is on the Jersey Shore, your favorite place in the world.

Em: I love her.

Christine: [laughs] And– Besides The Hamptons. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Look, I– I’m a Gemini. Okay? We have a lot of things going on.

Christine: [laughs] I know. It’s just– Sarah and her parents, Carla and Michael Stern, were well-known and well-liked in town. Um, Sarah was just like every other kid in town – very happy, very social, kind of like, um– Th-they described the town– I listened to the Dateline episode, so when I say “they,” I mean Keith Morrison– described the town as like, [in a deeper, lower voice] “a picturesque little village.” I don’t know– I don’t know how he did it, but he– He basically said like all the kids, uh, you know, would go to each other’s houses for pool parties and– Talk about like just dropping by.

Em: Mm.

Christine: This seems like this kind of neighborhood. Okay?

Em: Love it.

Christine: So all the kids know each other, you know, etc. And one of her best friends was her neighbor, Carly Draper. Uh, so Sarah was passionate and creative. Um, she was an artist. So by seventh grade, there was this boy named Liam McAtasney who had transferred to Sarah’s school, and they immediately bonded, and Liam became one of Sarah’s best friends. And, um, fun fact: Liam had a twin brother named Seamus. So very Irish, I’m, I’m assuming, um, with a name like that.

Em: [laughs] How do you say that– Seamus with the last name?

Christine: Oh, Seamus McAtasney. Yeah. [laughs] It’s like an M-C, you know, a “Mc.”

Em: It’s– That’s a, that’s a, a one search only on Facebook, I’ll tell ya. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] That’s right, exactly. Yeah. That’s an easy, easy stalk on cyberstalking situation.

Em: It’s what everyone hopes for when you’re dating a toxic boy. It’s like, “Oh, let me see.”

Christine: Yes.

Em: “Let me just do one quick goog.”

Christine: “What– It’s not a Smith, is it? Can’t be a Smith. I don’t have time for that today.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “I have things to do.” [laughs] So in high school, Liam became close with another one of Sarah’s best friends named Preston Taylor. So Sarah was an athlete. Um, she played softball and some other sports, but she was more drawn to the arts. She always loved visual arts, but in high school, she became really into drawing and photography, and she had just like sketchbooks upon sketchbooks of colorful illustrations. And she would go out into nature with her camera, and you know like that thing we would do back in like the 2000s– which is so cringey, and I feel bad that I’m even talking about it ’cause I imagine that she’s probably cringey about it. But like where you’d like set a timer on your digital camera and then like take a photo of yourself?

Em: Oh, yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Oh, yeah.

Christine: So she did a lot– She did that kind of thing like self-portraits, probably a lot artsier than mire were. And unfortunately– Well, I will also add that, um, I got a– this little tidbit from the Dateline as well – that her dead described her as a miracle child because her– his wife, um, believed she could not get pregnant. And so when, um, Sarah came along, they were like totally shocked and excited and thrilled. And so Carla gave birth to Sarah, and this was their miracle baby. But when Sarah was 16 in 2013, her mother died of cancer.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And so this was really hard, um, but despite her grief, instead of like turning inward like a lot of people do, she kind of went outward and started like reaching out to people and getting close with her grandma and, you know, trying to forge bonds where the– her mother had, you know, once been when she was alive. She often told her friends that she practiced something called “reckless optimism,” [laughs] which I really– I just like the sound of that. Um, she called it the unapologetic hope that things will work out even when it may seem naive to others.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And she had that kind of theme throughout her artwork as well. And when she graduated from Neptune High School, she began studying at Brookdale Community College and lived at home with her dad and her beloved dog, Buddy. In her free time, she kept making art. She would still hang out with all her childhood friends from town. Um, Liam and Preston also stayed nearby after high school, and the two of them actually moved into an apartment together. And so everyone was still kind of in this like tight-knit circle, even though they had graduated from high school. But as the years went on, um, Sarah and her fr– Sarah’s friends and her dad kind of started to notice that, um, she was getting restless like in the small town. And she went up to Toronto for VidCon and got to meet Jenna Marbles–

Em: Mm!

Christine: –and after– I know. The dream. Uh, and then after that she fell in love (this sounds familiar, Em) with Canada and really wanted to move to Toronto.

Em: I thought you were gonna say” fell in love with Jenna Marbles.” And I was like, “I get it.” [laughs]

Christine: I mean, I th– it sounds like she was already in love with Jenna Marbles. Um, she’s a step ahead of us. They got to give each other a hug.

Em: Ah! So jealous.

Christine: [laughs] If only. Um, but yeah, she, she became really into the idea of possibly moving to Canada, you know, someday.

Em: Sure.

Christine: And she didn’t necessarily have the plans yet. Her dad was like, “you’re still figuring things out,” and she was like, “I know, Dad, but like this is my plan, you know.”

Em: “You don’t understand me.”

Christine: “You don’t get it. Uh–

Em: “I didn’t take a timed selfie enough in Canada for you to understand. I–“

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. “You wouldn’t get it. Okay? Jenna and I are great friends and maybe lovers now–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–and I’m moving up to Canada–“ [laughs] [sighs] Oh gosh. Okay. So, anyway she wanted to make sure that when she went to Canada (which she really planned to do) uh, that she had the money for it and like she just didn’t have that yet being 19 years old. So Sarah’s family owned a second property. And one day, Sarah was over at the other house, and she was just going through like her mom’s old stuff and kind of like some nostalgic stuff. And she found a shoebox full of cash.

Em: Okay.

Christine: This box had tens of thousands of dollars in it.

Em: Oh my God.

Christine: Yes.

Em: How big c-can a box– How small can a box be and still have thousands of dollars in it?

Christine: Well, it sounds like a shoebox, so–

Em: I wonder how many bucks. Like if you took the biggest buck like a $100 bill, how many fit in a shoebox? And then that’s how much money you can fit in a shoebox.

Christine: Well, it depends on what size shoe you are.

Em: Mm, okay. You’re right.

Christine: That’s another com–

Em: Well, no there’s– I feel like there’s a standard shoebox size, right? Or no?

Christine: I don’t– I mean, maybe? But I’m sure some like a size 11 probably different than– I mean maybe not.

Em: You know, I just always forget that ten–

Christine: Or if you’re buying boots versus– Like combat boots versus heels or flats.

Em: Oh, you’re right. You’re right. You’re right.

Christine: Some of them are skinny. I don’t know.

Em: In my mind, it’s like a Converse shoebox. But, um–

Christine: [typing on computer] How many bills fit in a–

Em: Shoebox.

Christine: Oh my god, let’s see what people asked: a money gun [laughs]–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –uh, a wallet, a briefcase– That’s an interesting one.

Em: Oh, that is interesting.

Christine: How many bills fit in a shoebox? Oh, people have asked this. Okay. Oh, 7,400 bills.

Em: 7,400– 7,400, so then add two zeros to that, so that’s 740,000?

Christine: 74– Wait. Yeah, you’re right. What? Really?

Em: Wow, you could have literally almost a million dollars in a shoebox in bills. That’s crazy.

Christine: This is literally a New York Times article: “7,400 bills fit in a shoebox, a detective proves in court.”

Em: Hell yeah. Alright.

Christine: Can you imagine though? Just sitting there, and he’s like, “One, two–“ [laughs] “–7,400–“

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: 74– Hang on. 7,400. Boom, boom. Yeah, yeah. 7– Yeah, 740,000. Three zeroes.

Christine: Jesus. God.

Em: Holy shit.

Christine: Okay, so a lot. A lot!

Em: So if someone ever tells you they found a million dollars in a shoebox, they are lying.

Christine: A million? Yeah, then they’re lying.

Em: Just so you know.

Christine: Then they’re– Or, or they’re exaggerating. Or they bought some nice winter boots and have a bigger shoebox than most people.

Em: [laughs] Right, yeah. They have to have a very specific shoebox. Okay.

Christine: Right, okay. Cool, cool, cool. Um, anyway. Oh my god. Here’s a YouTube video it’s suggesting now: “Will $1 million fit in a Nike shoebox? Find out!” [laughs] Okay, so in–

Em: [laughs] Can you imagine having a million dollars and then also running a YouTube account where you just pull all that money out of your bank–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and then go fit it in a fucking shoebox?

Christine: [laughs] Okay, Em, I think it’s probably not a real million dollars. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Oh!

Christine: [laughs] I’m assuming that they’re just like the size and weight of–

Em: I see. I was like that feels like a Mr. Beast or something where it’s like “here’s a–“

Christine: [laughs] You’re so– I lo– It does. I know, I know, but like– Oh my god.

Em: Sorry, I think like a 12-year-old boy apparently where I’m like, “Whoa!”

Christine: You would be that teenager. I know! You would be that teenager who’s like, “Holy crap! He has a million dollars? I should sign up for his online course on how to be an influencer.” No, I’m kidding.

Em: Yeah, he needs my money. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] For only 16 payments of my mom’s credit card, uh, I can, I can learn–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh gosh. Okay. I’m so sorry. [makes VHS rewind sound effect] Rewind. Okay. So anyway, she wants to move to Canada. One day, she’s just at her parents’ other house– Remember, her mom has di– passed of cancer when she was– when Sarah was 16. She’s at her parents’ other property, and she finds this shoebox amongst her mother’s old stuff. And it looks like her mom had been hiding some cash a– not hiding, but like kind of just–

Em: Putting it aside.

Christine: –saving– Yes. Putting it aside for her, for her, for her daughter. And s–

Em: Would you take it? Like if you didn’t know it was for you, and it was just your dead mom’s in a house that no one lives in?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I would take it too.

Christine: I mean, if it were– if I– if it were in a box that my mom– of my mom’s stuff and she was dead, I’d be like, “Okay, this is mine now.” [laughs] I don’t know.

Em: Yeah, I would do it too.

Christine: I mean, unless there was like some reason not to, but, uh– I mean, I wouldn’t like go buy a fucking– I wouldn’t like go put it in another shoebox or like put it on YouTube, but I would probably put it in a bank or something. I don’t know.

Em: Okay, cool.

Christine: Or I’d like make a TikTok like, “I just found the craziest thing inside my walls,” you know.

Em: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Christine: I don’t know. What would you do? You’d take it. We’d ha– What–

Em: I would obviously– I would make a YouTube channel, and I would try to put it in a shoebox and–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –film it for a bunch of 12-year-old boys. [laughs]

Christine: Honestly, it sounds like that might be a really good plan. Um–

Em: I mean, it would work. It would certainly work for me.

Christine: It seems like it’s effective. Okay. So anyway, she’s itching to move to Canada, and then, all of a sudden, she finds like 20 grand, okay? So like holy crap. So the money itself actually ended up being like very brittle and so– which is like a thing I never really thought about, but I guess over the years, it had really worn down.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And so some of the money like disintegrates when you touch it, apparently. This money she found.

Em: Holy shit. Wow.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: I wouldn’t have thought that, especially when like– Isn’t it like kind of made with like cotton or something in the paper?

Christine: You, you’d think, right? Like fabric-y– Yeah, I thought it– Well, yeah. I don’t– So I don’t know.

Em: Hm.

Christine: Maybe it was like stored in like an attic or something or got flooded.

Em: Weird.

Christine: Like who knows. I don’t know, but yeah. So she found this money, and she decided to put it in a safety deposit box at a local bank. Um, she actually called her Aunt Linda, interestingly enough, right away when she found it and said like, “Hey, I found, uh, like Mom’s money– all this money,” and, uh, her aunt told Sarah to keep it a complete secret and to never tell another person about it.

Em: That’s a good aunt. That’s what I’m talking about.

Christine: Well, yeah. So, so Sarah spent a few thousand dollars, and then she put the rest in a safety deposit box at a local bank. And she kept one key, and then the bank had the second key. And you needed like a s– I think most banks you need both keys in order to access–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –’cause you need somebody to come with you with the second key or you need to use the second key to open the box. And then when she was ready to leave home, the money would be there for her when she went up to Canada. And in the meantime, life just went on as usual. And I will add right now she did not tell her dad that she had found this money.

Em: Okay.

Christine: In late 2016, Sarah’s dad was actually vacationing in Florida with, uh, his new wife, and apparently– which I think is pretty sweet, uh– Oh, well her name’s Christine, which is also pretty sweet–

Em: [laughs] Mm-hmm.

Christine: –um, but apparently Sarah and Christine really got along. And Christine said she lost her mom when she was young, like around the same age, and so they really bonded. And I thought that was very sweet. Um, but so Sarah’s dad and his wife were in Florida, and, uh, they– he was feeling a little bit on edge because Sarah’s grandma had texted or called him and told him she hadn’t heard from Sarah all day. So Michael started texting Sarah being like, “Hey, please call me the second you see this. Why is your phone off?” And she just wasn’t responding. In the middle of the night – 3:00 a.m. – his phone rings.

Em: Oh god.

Christine: Again, he’s on vacation in Florida, but like he lives in New Jersey.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: And so he answers the phone, and all he hears on the other line is this man. And he says, “Did Sarah drive the Oldsmobile–“ or whatever. It was this Oldsmobile that belonged to her grandmother. “Did she– Was she known to drive it?” And Michael said, “Yeah, she, she occasionally drove it.” They fucking hung up on him. This was the police calling. They were– They basically were calling to see if– They ask him, does– “Was your daughter known to drive her grandmother’s car?” And remember, her grandmother’s the one who’s been texting him all day saying, “I haven’t heard from her.”

Em: Right.

Christine: Well, they find this car. Police find this car on the side of the road.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: By the way, the dad has to call the police station back to figure out: A, who called him; and B, what was going on because they just were like, “We have a question for you,” and then hung up.

Em: [sighs] Eugh.

Christine: And so he calls back, and, of course, as the line picks up, it says, “This is the whatever county police department.” And he went, “Oh, shit,” you know. They were the ones calling, asking about if my daughter drove her grandma’s car.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Turns out the reason they asked is because they had actually found an abandoned car on the side of the bridge on Route 35, which went across Shark River, and basically feet from the car is just this steep drop into the river. They found it there in the middle of the night. An Uber driver actually called police and just said, “Hey, uh, there’s this abandoned car here.” So they sent out a car to check, and the key was in the ignition, and the car was working just fine. So it wasn’t an issue of the car breaking down, um, but the owner was nowhere in sight.

Em: [sighs] Wow.

Christine: And when they ran this Oldsmobile, they found out that it was this grandmother– this 90-something-year-old lady in town. And when they called her–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –she said, “Oh, my granddaughter, Sarah, borrowed the car from me today.”

Em: [sighs]

Christine: “And I haven’t heard from her all day.”

Em: Wow.

Christine: So now they’re calling everyone they can think of to try and contact friends and family. Um, nobody seemed to know where Sarah was. Michael, at that moment– 3:00 a.m. when he got this phone call, he and Christine got in the car and started driving home. It was like a 17 hour drive. They just started booking it home.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: And Christine drove, while basically he was just frantically on his phone the whole time trying to get ahold of Sarah. So the police searched Sarah’s house, but nobody was home. And they already started to feel pretty concerned that something was wrong. In the footage from police body cameras, when they entered Sarah’s house through an unlocked door, one of them said, “I want to make sure–“ Eugh… “I want to make sure we don’t have a jumper.”

Em: [gasps] Oh god.

Christine: So they were very worried that this was some sort of suicidal, uh, you know, situation, and they didn’t know if they were able to find clues in her house and see maybe like if they could find a journal or something that would tell them if she was having these kind of ideations.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But pretty soon they were able to talk to Robin Draper. And I know I mentioned her very briefly, but Carly is, uh, her best friend, and she lives next door. And Carly’s mom is Robin Draper, and they’re also neighbors.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: They’re like childhood friends. So Robin comes outside, is like, “What’s going on?” They tell her all they found inside the house was Buddy, Sarah’s dog, who was still locked in his crate.

Em: Aw.

Christine: And she was like, “Well, that’s weird. Buddy has free roam of the house, even when Sarah’s not home. So I don’t know why he would be in his crate.”

Em: Oh, shit. Home invasion.

Christine: So the police are like, “What is going on? When is the last time you talked to Sarah?” And she said, “Actually, yesterday afternoon.” And they said, “Okay. What was the– What, what was the context of that?” Apparently, Sarah had come over to the Drapers’ house – her friend, Carly's house – with Liam, her friend, Liam. And she was carrying like a box of stuff, just like her mother’s items, packed into these bins, and she asked if she could store some of her mother’s stuff at the Drapers’ house. And they were like, “I guess, sure. I don’t know why you would want to store your mom’s stuff at our house like–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “–instead of just where it already was at your house.” It was just strange, um. And at first, because it was just kind of like trinkets and like sentimental stuff, the police were worried because they’re thinking, “Oh gosh, like was she giving away her nostalgic stuff–“

Em: Right, because she was– Yeah.

Christine: “–in preparation for a–“ Yeah, “a suicide attempt?” And so there was this big red flag immediately, and they asked Robin– You can like hear this interview on Dateline. They asked Robin if Sarah had seemed depressed. And Sarah had known Robin– or Robin had known Sarah rather for her–basically her entire life, so she has a pretty good like grip on, on Sarah’s, um, behavior and mood. And she said, “Yeah, actually. It’s possible. Sarah was pretty down lately and has been kind of struggling.” But she also said, “There’s something wrong about the dog though. I don’t think she would have just left him in his crate–“

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: “–if she was planning this ahead of time. Like something just seems wrong.”

Em: Yeah. She would have absolutely made sure the dog was okay.

Christine: That somebody was with the dog or that it– Yeah, exactly, there was some sort of plan for the dog. So if the police never came, Buddy could have died, bef– right? In this crate before, before she got back.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It just did not track, um, and so it just seemed impossible, especially with Michael out of the state– like her dad in Florida, it just seemed impossible. But if she had been in some sort of mental health crisis, right? Like we don’t know. I mean, you don’t– you can’t necessarily imagine that you’ll be as logical as you want to be when you’re in a state of crisis. And so it’s very possible. Perhaps she made a wrong judgment call; perhaps she forgot about the dog and went forward with her plan anyway. You know, there’s– it– there’s no way to say for sure, black or white, that, that it’s not a possibility, so they kept it on the table. Now, about 4:00 a.m., the police arrived at the apartment where Liam lived with Preston because she had been with Liam earlier in the day when she went to the neighbors and brought all of her mother’s stuff over.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So they went to Liam’s house. Liam let them in, and he said, “Yep, I saw Sarah Friday afternoon. We went and got lunch at Taco Bell and hung out, and then I went to work.” So the police asked Liam about Sarah’s like mindset when they hung out, and Liam was like, “Well, she seemed extremely stressed.” And he told police that Sarah had been talking about getting away and like something about Canada, but he wasn’t really sure. And he also said that Sarah had a volatile relationship with her dad.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And he described her dad as unstable and emotionally abusive, using the term actually “crazy.” So now investigators were like, “Oh, well, maybe there’s some optimism here. Maybe she didn’t jump off the bridge. Maybe she left her car there as kind of a distraction and then took off to Canada. Maybe that, maybe that was her plan all along.”

Em: Right.

Christine: And if she were fleeing an abusive situation, for example, she might have felt like she wasn’t safe to tell anyone where she was going and perhaps that is why–

Em: No, that totally makes sense.

Christine: Yeah, why she’d left town with no word to anyone. It would also make sense that she asked the Drapers to store things in their house if she couldn’t trust her dad to watch the stuff she cared about, right?

Em: Right. Totally.

Christine: So now they’re thinking, “Okay, okay. Well, maybe somebody else she knows– she’s friends with knows about these plans and can help us locate her.” So Liam was like, “I don’t know. I’m one of her closest friends, and I– She didn’t confide in me, so I don’t know who else to turn to.”

Em: Right.

Christine: So police were like, “Alright. Well, we’ll just basically ask everyone in this small town.” So they start questioning Sarah’s other friends, and they all agreed that, uh, Sarah never spoke of like a long-distance relationship up there, like never spoke of like a friend, a pen pal she had that she was going to like move in with temporarily. There was just nobody they could think of that would like be there in Canada with her, um, but they had heard her talk about trying to get to Canada eventually. So they were like, “I guess that’s possible.” She had always seemed pretty uninterested in dating. And even though she went to prom with her friend, Preston, who lives with Liam, um, Preston and Sarah’s other friends were like, “It was not romantic. Like they just went as friends.” Um, but Liam mentioned that Sarah tended to date women and that he noticed she sometimes became obsessed with her ex-girlfriends.

Em: Uh-oh.

Christine: And so now they’re thinking, “Oh, jeez. Is there like a love s– like a love-romance-gone-wrong situation happening?” And he further explained that once she had had an argument with a woman named Maggie and became really manipulative. And Liam said that Sarah told Maggie, “If you don’t come over right now, I’m going to kill myself.”

Em: [sucks in breath] [sighs]

Christine: So he’s telling all these things to the officers, and they’re going, “Oh, jeez. Like this could go any of a number of ways. Like this could go really bad or like more hopeful. I– We don’t know.” He said there could sometimes be self-destructive tendencies that she had. Um, she had recently been fired from her job which is, you know, a big stressor when mental health crises come into play.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And he worried that maybe she had hurt herself, but he was– he didn’t want to believe that. So now they’re thinking, “Oh, jeez. Like maybe there was a bad breakup. Maybe her father didn’t treat her well because she was– wasn’t straight. Like maybe she had a secret relationship she couldn’t share with people. Um, maybe she went with that person to Canada, who knows.” So police then asked Preston, the roommate and Sarah’s other friend, what he thought happened to Sarah. And he said, “I think she jumped.”

Em: [sucks in breath]

Christine: And when they asked why, he said he was really worried that she had died by suicide because of the stories he had heard about her dad.

Em: Wow.

Christine: So police are questioning Sarah’s social ne-network. Meanwhile, her dad is like booking it up from Florida. And they set up this massive air and sea search, and rescue boats, recovery divers – they’re scouring the Shark River for any sign of Sarah. Helicopters are looking from above. Apparently, this was one of the biggest, uh, searches in Jersey Shore history, and this was in 2016, so, you know, r-relatively recent. There were two cameras on the Route 35 bridge, but police, of course, discovered they were nonfunctional, so there was no way to see what had happened on the bridge–

Em: Of course.

Christine: –which is just so infuriating ’cause how easy would that be to just rewind and take a look.

Em: I know.

Christine: Ugh! It’s so infuriating.

Em: It’s, it’s almost as if that’s what it was made for. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] It’s almost as if that’s the point of it. Yeah. Uh, they searched along every route from Sarah’s house to the bridge to see if anyone else had like seen or captured footage of her on their doorbell or, or some other way, um, but they just could not quite figure out– They did find one camera at a neighbor’s house that faced Sarah’s driveway. And they watched Liam leave for work, and then hours later, Sarah left in her car. So it was like that’s all that they could tell.

Em: Okay.

Christine: They put together a timeline and determined that Sarah drove to the bridge just before midnight, and several hours– and that was several hours before authorities responded to the Uber driver who called and said, um, “I found this abandoned car.” So there would be– There were basically, uh, several hours where they don’t know what took place between like midnight and like 2:00.

Em: But her driving to the bridge kind of confirms or validates their, their suspicion that maybe it was, uh, suicide?

Christine: Mm-hmm. Because the car was not broken down. It was fully functional. The keys were in the ignition.

Em: Right.

Christine: Like– And there was just no sign of her.

Em: They just see her driving to a bridge, and they’re like, “Okay. Well, that’s–“

Christine: And, and that’s, that’s the last trace of her.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Yeah. So the Shark River went right into the ocean, and the scary thing is, you know, if the tide pulls you out, uh, within hours you could be in the ocean and never found again. So, you know, they’re searching and hoping they can find anything, any clue, or, I guess, also hoping they don’t find anything. Um, but the bad news is like even if they don’t find anything, because it feeds out into the ocean, there’s no way to know, you know, whether that’s what happened or not. And now they’re thinking, “Well, okay. Hopefully, what happened is she ran away and somebody picked her up on the bridge. And maybe you know they met, and then she hopped in their car and then kept driving.” You know, that’s a possibility. If only we had a camera to look at. Hm.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Anyway, on December 6, Sarah’s family organized– I like how I say that when like we’re filming stuff and we always like forget to turn our cameras on or our audio on. I’m like, “Who am I kidding?” Like the number of times I’ve forgotten to record when I’m intentionally trying to record, I have no room.

Em: That’s true, but none of our episodes like solve a murder. [laughs]

Christine: Okay. Fair point. I’m waiting for the day one does, but so far, no. You’re right.

Em: And it’ll be the one where we forgot to film, so.

Christine: [laughs] You’re not even kidding. That’s actually so true. Oh gosh. Okay. So on December 6, um, her– By the way, her dad comes home, basically finds the house full of people trying to figure out where his daughter went. Um, he’s basically in shock. He’s trying to figure out what happened. And on December 6, Sarah’s family gets together, and they organize, uh, their own search effort. And hundreds of people from Neptune and nearby communities gather – people who knew her, people who didn’t, people from her high school. And Liam and his twin, Seamus, uh, joined Sarah’s other friends on the streets of Neptune City, just looking anywhere and everywhere, putting up flyers, trying to figure out if they can find any clue of where she had been and what she had done. And while they were searching, police got a tip from her cousin who had been contacted by the assistant manager of the bank where Sarah kept her money in a safety deposit box.

Em: Mm!

Christine: He told Sarah’s cousin that Sarah stopped at the bank just hours before she disappeared.

Em: Oh, so that girl did not die. She took off.

Christine: The police opened her safety deposit box and found just over $25,000 inside.

Em: Hm. Okay.

Christine: Strange.

Em: Yeah, I thought that was gonna be empty.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, that put another wrench in their whole theory. The old– They were like really old bills like I was saying, but they weren’t like totally unusable. So it’s not like she just left the ones that were like decrepit.

Em: Right.

Christine: A lot of them would have still been fine to use, so they were confused why she wouldn’t have taken 25 grand with her.

Em: Right.

Christine: The police had also found Sarah’s passport, her social security card, and US and Canadian currency in her bedroom.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So she wouldn’t– She didn’t take the Canadian currency she had collected.

Em: Right.

Christine: It was also difficult to imagine that Sarah ran away to start a new life without all of this stuff and then without a car and not knowing who would have taken her there. So it’s starting to add up like, “Uh-oh, maybe that’s not as feasible as we had thought.”

Em: Right.

Christine: But detectives also reviewed footage from the bank’s cameras. And so they looked, and they did see indeed that she went to the bank. And she was smiling, looked like she was in a good mood. She– The assistant manager said she seemed normal, happy. And, you know, this is a small town so he knew Sarah pretty well, and he knew like enough– He had met her enough times to be able to say, “Oh, she seemed perfectly fine.”

Em: So it wasn’t like she was like being held hostage and like forced to go into the bank and take money out.

Christine: No, apparently– Like to the point where they were such close family friends that as she left they like blew each other a kiss and said, “Love you.”

Em: Oh, wow. Yeah, she’s totally fine.

Christine: Like they were that, that close of friends. And he said, “Nothing seemed out of the ordinary; she seemed just perfectly happy.” But investigators did notice something very out of place when they were going through the footage, and they noticed a shot of Sarah’s car that came into frame very briefly outside.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And they were like, “Who is in the car with her? There’s somebody in there.” And I can only imagine they went, “Enhance. Enhance.” [laughs]

Em: Right, right. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Like they do on CSI, and it just happens. Uh, but no they were able to look at it and realize the person in the car with her was Liam.

Em: Mm. They were together earlier that day, right?

Christine: They w– They had been together, but then they saw Liam leaving her house, and then they saw her leaving the house.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And he had a, he had a shift, so this would have been like after his work shift I assume, um–

Em: So they got back together?

Christine: It seems like it–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –is what they’re figuring out. Because if she went to the bridge around midnight and they had Taco Bell at 2:00 and then he went to work, it seems like after his shift, they got back together is what it’s, what it’s seeming like. And the reason this is odd is not ’cause they’re friends or anything or hanging out but because Liam did not mention that when they had interviewed him.

Em: I wondered–

Christine: He said “I saw her at lunch.”

Em: I wondered like when it was, um– when he was the first person that was answering all their questions, and he was like, “Oh, but, but Preston. Like she went to homecoming with Preston.” And like I feel like– I don’t know. I was like why is he getting kind of overlooked? Maybe it’s ’cause he’s being really helpful and giving information, so–

Christine: Which one? Sorry. Which one?

Em: Uh, Liam. He was like one of the first people that the police talked to.

Christine: Oh. Yes.

Em: And I think maybe because he was just being helpful they like overlooked him. But I remember thinking like, “She was literally with a guy? Isn’t the whole thing that you ask the most recent man near a woman?”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Anyway, it’s okay.

Christine: Yes.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Yes. So they asked, “When did you see her last?” He said, “Oh, lunch, and then I went to work.” And right now that they’re kind of looking at the footage and seeing him again, they’re like, “Well, that’s strange.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: “Why wouldn’t you say that?” you know. Um, again and again Liam had repeated the same timeline of events from Taco Bell, blah-blah-blah, playing video games at Sarah’s house, then leaving for work, and he never mentioned going to the bank with her. So now they go and ask, and he says, “Oh, I have no idea what Sarah did inside the bank. I didn’t think it was important to bring up.” [laughs] Okay.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, strange. So this is a huge red flag, uh, in his story and it raised concerns among the detectives obviously. But they might not have proved anything at all if it weren’t for another tip from Sarah’s high school classmate, Anthony Curry.

Em: That Liam’s in s– in love with her.

Christine: That Liam’s in love with her? Oh. Oh! No.

Em: Oh.

Christine: But interesting plot twist. Uh, like Sarah, Anthony was an artist, and he was voted most likely to become famous in their high school class.

Em: Oh, wow.

Christine: And he had actually moved to New York and was directing films with friends and a lot of horror movies, and he spent a lot of time writing. Just a very, you know, filmmaker type. And Liam, his friend, was sometimes involved in Anthony’s creative projects, so they would spend time together. Anthony ca– contacted the police once he’d heard about Sarah’s disappearance because he had a very, very, very, very bad feeling about a conversation he and Liam had had several months ago.

Em: What?

Christine: Liam had proposed a fun plot for a film to Anthony.

Em: I was gonna say, you said horror film. I was like, “What did he do?”

Christine: You know Keith Morrison ate that shit up. He was like, [in a deeper, lower voice] “Like his own sort of horror f– Was this a horror film that he had created? Or was just this–“

Em: [in a slower, lower voice] “Was this the pitch for a horror movie?”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “Was he creating a crime so that he could then film a film about the crime he committed for the film?”

Christine: “Should I take my shirt off?”

Em: “Yeah, hold–“

Christine: Wait, I didn’t mean to say that out loud.” Sorry, that’s Zachary.

Em: [laughs] And then Zak Bagans is like behind the teleprompter.

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Oops. Uh, so anyway. So Liam had proposed, um, a fun film drama plot, okay? To Anthony. And the plot included a murder. And when he’s like, ”Okay, uh, go on,” Liam says, “Okay, well, it’s about killing this woman and then dropping her body off the Shark River bridge to stage a suicide.” And once Sarah disappeared, guess what? Liam reached out to Anthony again and said, “Have the police talked to you?”

Em: Oh– Uh, immediately.

Christine: And it was that moment that Anthony went “Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Because when he first talked to his friend that he’d known since first grade, he was like, “Oh, well, he’s just trying to be– like–“

Em: Come up with an idea.

Christine: “He’s just pi–“ I’m, I’m sure if you’re like a filmmaker, all your high school friends are always pitching ideas, right? Like it seems like something–

Em: Especially if you’re a horror filmmaker like–

Christine: Exactly. Exactly.

Em: –you’re supposed to come up with some twisted things and pitch them, yeah.

Christine: Yes. So he kind of just like brushed it off. But then when the disappearance happened and he remembered his friend telling him this like murder plot. And then he realized, “Wait. Liam’s friends with her,” and also then Liam called him and said, “Have the police talked to you yet?” he was like, “Ah, fuck.” So actually he called his dad and was like, “I need help. I need advice.” And his dad was like, “We are calling the police right now.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So they call the police, and they bring, they bring Anthony in from New York, and they basically ask him – like his own personal horror film – to put on a wire and go undercover and try and get Liam to talk.

Em: Mm, beautiful.

Christine: Yes. And they set up the sting operation, and they wire up the car. They put cameras in there. They wire him up. January 31, 2017, Anthony drove to meet with Liam under the pretense of asking Liam to borrow money for a new camera. So they played– [laughs] They played the clip of– which is so crazy. They play the clip of him talking to Liam and like– You know, obviously we know he’s like wired and like the police were listening–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –but he sounds so chill. And I’m, I’m listening to this like, “Are you serious right now?” Like he is wired up, talking to a potential murderer and also one of his closest friends, and he’s just like, “Yeah, man. Like whatever.” [laughs]

Em: He wa– He’s in the movie world. Maybe he’s an actor.

Christine: He’s an actor! I know. I was like, “This is amazing.”

Em: An actor [pronounced “act-ore”]. Yeah.

Christine: An actor [pronounced “act-ore”] no less. And apparently, [laughs] which I thought was very creative. I don’t know if th– They said the police helped him write a script or wrote up a script for him. I like to think he went a little off-script because apparently he explained that one of his cameras broke because he dropped it in a bucket of fake blood.

Em: I love it.

Christine: [laughs] Wait, Em. You know the police were like, “That was not part of the– That was not one of the lines. Come on.”

Em: No. [laughs]

Christine: Um, but he asked– But– And he said, “You can spot me, right? From that girl’s money.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: And kind of hinted like “’Cause I know.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “I know. I know there’s something there, and I know you have money because you were talking about killing someone and taking the money and staging it like a suicide, and I’ve–“ Kinda, just kinda hinting at it.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So Anthony and Liam are in the car. And first of all, which is like really distressing and apparently made the police basically poop their pants, is that Anthony goes, “Well, let me check you for a wire first.”

Em: [gasps] Oh my god.

Christine: [laughs] And he’s like, “Okay, man. Whatever.” And I’m like, “How are you so chill? Like I’d be freaking the fuck out.”

Em: [laughs] So when–

Christine: And so you can hear him getting patted down, but he doesn’t catch the wire. Like he just doesn’t s– like find it.

Em: He just didn’t– Oh, wow. Okay. Wow.

Christine: He just missed it.

Em: You know that as chill as he’s being in his head, he was like, “Oh my god. I can’t believe it. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god.”

Christine: This is it. And police were like, “Oh, that– that was not part of the plan.” Um, but yeah. They– He checked him, and, and you can hear him say– He says, “Dude, you can’t blame me for doing this, right? I gotta feel you up, bro. Real quick. No disrespect.” No homo. [laughs]

Em: No homo.

Christine: You know, just like so embarrassing.

Em: Which like I would– I am surprised in 2024 there is not a wireless wire. Like–

Christine: Well, it was 2016. I don’t know if that makes a difference to you or not, but, um–

Em: I’m still surprised with all of our technology that like there’s a literal wire that needs to– It’s–

Christine: I mean, but look at us right now. How many fucking wires do we have? And we’re just inside. Imagine if you have to go into a car.

Em: Oh, you’re right.

Christine: You know, I mean I–

Em: I’m surprised there’s not some like alpha male podcast bro who’s come up with someth– You know, they’ve got like the little TikTok microphones? I’m surprised there’s not–

Christine: Yeah, you got like a wire– Yeah, but like I feel like a lav mic isn’t gonna do the trick when someone– Also wired.

Em: I know.

Christine: I guess you can have a Bluetooth one, but–

Em: Anyway, I’m just surprised that technology hasn’t come up with something yet.

Christine: Well, apparently it did because he didn’t find it.

Em: That’s a good point.

Christine: You know what, Em? Maybe it was an invisible one, and it was just state-of-the-art, you know.

Em: Ooh.

Christine: So in that moment, of course, Anthony was probably also peeing his pants but had to play it cool ’cause he’s thinking, “If Liam did kill Sarah, now I’m alone with a murderer. And if he finds out that I have a wire on me, I’m fucked.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, and of course the detectives like were listening and– but they couldn’t really intervene unless–

Em: Right.

Christine: –something happened and then it would maybe be too late. So it’s all just very scary, um, but you can– In the footage from the vehicle, Liam seemed, uh, calm and a little frustrated like as if he were kind of co– inconvenienced. I know you know what that’s like. Very bad, right? [laughs]

Em: Worst thing that could happen to you.

Christine: Um, and he goes, “What’s wrong, man? Like what’s, what’s up?” He goes, “Yeah, I got the FBI on my ass, dude.” [laughs] It’s just so– A minor inconvenience. You know how that happens sometimes. Uh, and he’s like, “About what?” And Liam said, “Killing Sarah.”

Em: Oh! He didn’t even say like, “They think I did it. That’s crazy that they would think that, right?”

Christine: Nope.

Em: He just straight up said “killing her.”

Christine: He just straight up said, “killing Sarah.” He then– And he goes, “Oh, wow. What, what happened, man?” He then described in vivid detail ambushing Sarah in her house, choking her from behind with his arm until she went limp and dropped on the floor. Then she beg– began to have what he described as some sort of seizure.

Em: Oh, fuck.

Christine: And so he gagged her mouth with a T-shirt and pinched her nose shut with his hand–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –until she asphyxiated.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: And Anthony [sighs] was sitting there just like probably getting–

Em: “Cool, man. Cool, man.” Yeah.

Christine: Right, right. And like getting probably deeply traumatized, and he then went on– Liam went on to tell Anthony he was surprised by how long it took to kill Sarah. He thought choking her would take a couple of minutes, but he said it took nearly half an hour–

Em: Wow.

Christine: –to asphyxiate her.

Em: Wow.

Christine: And he said– [sighs] This guy’s fu– motherfucking sicko. He said he knew how long it took because he turned on his iPhone stopwatch just to see.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Just to time it.

Em: Hm.

Christine: He said the only complication he had worried about was the dog, Buddy, but he said, “Buddy just watched in his crate, and I just left him there.” What is wrong with you? But Buddy–

Em: I can’t even– I can’t even imagine being a dog watching that, knowing that there’s nothing you can do.

Christine: This– It’s horrific. It’s horrific. Um, I– Yeah. The thought– I don’t even like to think about it. Um, but if you also think about it, which is so dark, Buddy had known Liam since they were like– since he was a puppy– like forever because Liam was always over.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: They’re like be– close friends, and so he wouldn’t have even considered him an intruder. Like he would have just been like, “Oh, he’s here,” you know.

Em: Right.

Christine: Um, even while Sarah was in distress. So as Liam described killing this woman who considered him, by the way, her lifelong best friend, he just like spoke so unaffected by it. It was kind of like, “Yeah, it was weird. I timed it on my stopwatch.” Unfazed.

Em: Is like– Is Anthony like laughing along with this like they’re bros? Like, “Ha-ha, no way. You–“

Christine: Basically Anthony was like, “Whoa, man. Yeah, whoa.” Like I think just letting him talk basically, just kind of like, “Mm, mm.”

Em: “Mm.”

Christine: You know, just letting him keep going. And, um, I think they also prepped him for what to say, you know?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: I mean, they clearly didn’t prep him for what to do if he was getting patted down for a wire [laughs]–

Em: [sucks in a breath]

Christine: –but I think they did script out like possible conversation topics, you know, to try and get to the right answer.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But it sounds like right away he just started spilling his guts. And so much so that he also mentioned, “Hey, you know my roommate and buddy, Preston, who’s also one of Sarah’s closest friends? He was, he was involved too.”

Em: Oh, shit. Oh, so he was really gonna let like Preston hang, hang dry.

Christine: What, what do you mean?

Em: Well, like, uh, they were like le-letting him hang out to dry. Like he was gonna blame it all on Preston.

Christine: No, he just said Preston was like help– like was part of it.

Em: Oh, really? ’Cause I– In like the–

Christine: Or what do y–

Em: When the police were first talking to him and he said like, “Oh, yeah. Well, she went to the dance with this guy, Preston, but I think they were just friends.”

Christine: Oh, no, no. Sorry. That was me saying like years ago they had gone to a dance together.

Em: Ohh. Oh, oh.

Christine: Sorry. I was–

Em: I thought you were saying that he like, like tried to redirect them to Preston.

Christine: No, no, no. I was just saying, um, Preston, his roommate who also was one of Sarah’s friends– They even went to like homecoming together like in high school but only as friends, and, um–

Em: Gotcha. Okay. It was just context for me.

Christine: Basically– Yeah, just context because she was very close with both of them, and they live together, so– Um, he–

Em: But then he also said– Didn’t he also say she would– he would get really– That– Sorry. Didn’t, uh, the killer– I forget his name all of a sudden.

Christine: Liam.

Em: Didn’t– Yes. Didn’t he say like, “Oh, well Preston used to get weirdly jealous of her love interests and stuff like that?”

Christine: No, no, no. Sorry. She– None of that was about Preston. She dated girls, and she had these like fixations on her exes–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –and would get kind of manipulative sometimes– is what he claimed. That she would sometimes like tell an ex, um, you know, “If you don’t come over here, I’ll kill myself,” that kind of thing.

Em: I see.

Christine: And he said, you know, she was a little troubled. She would make comments like that, but we don’t even know if that’s fucking true because now we know he had an ulterior motive to say shit like that. But he basically painted her as looking very unstable and like having a very abusive father in her life.

Em: Gotcha.

Christine: And so– Th– He was trying to lead them to believe she had gone to Canada–

Em: Right.

Christine: –is what like his– He was like, “Well, you know, she dates girls, and like her dad is very abusive and like–“ And then Preston’s like, “Yeah, he is.” [laughs] It’s just fucking–

Em: Right, but meanwhile the dad is like racing home because he is very maybe not so toxic as–

Christine: I don’t think it was– I think they argued, but her friends were like, “Everyone argues with their parents. It wasn’t anything out of the ordinary.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So it seems like they were maybe putting some emphasis on, um, leading the police in the wrong direction. So yeah, he’s basically like, “Oh, by the way, my buddy Preston also helped me out.” Like this was his plan, but he’s basically now saying, “Oh, yeah. My buddy, Preston, also helped.” So Anthony’s just sitting there, like letting all this kind of happen, uh, [laughs] and probably thinking like, “How soon can I get out of this fucking car?” Um, but apparently, when he asked like, “Well, what happened, man?” he said that Sarah had told them about the money she had found. And remember when her aunt told her, “don’t ever say a fucking word ’cause people are gonna come after you.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And lo and behold, she told her lifelong best friend, and look what happened.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It’s just so sad. So apparently, the two of them, Preston and Liam, spent months planning how they would rob Sarah of this money. Like the second she found the money and told them, they were like, “Okay. Well, let’s steal it from her.”

Em: How do you even begin a conversation like that with somebody else to see if they’re game?

Christine: I don’t know.

Em: Like how do you go like, “Wouldn’t it be funny if we like robbed her? Ha-ha-ha.” Immediately–

Christine: I always wonder that. Like how do these people even find each other, you know?

Em: I know. Yeah.

Christine: Like to be willing to do that for like– which is like what? Couple thousand– 10 grand, 20 grand, whatever it was. Like really?

Em: Of your dead mom’s money? Like–

Christine: Right, like really? There’s no better way? So they basically spent months– And then he fucking contacts his friend who’s a filmmaker and is like, “I have a great plot for you.” Like okay, guy. Like fucking seriously?

Em: And also you think about like $25,000 split two ways is like 12 grand. Like 12 grand is all it takes to kill your friend? That’s fucking crazy.

Christine: Exactly. Your best friend, right? And like not even–

Em: I try to think of how much money it would take to kill you – not 12 grand.

Christine: [laughs] That’s good.

Em: You’re at least worth 12 grand to me, Christine.

Christine: Hey, listen when that– What is it called? SuperPaw? SparklePaw? What’s that hoodie website?

Em: Oh, sparkle– Spark Paws.

Christine: When Spark Paws money comes in and nobody hears from me again–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –you’ll know what happened. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: You’ll know what happened. Um, no, but I moved to Canada is what happened because, you know–

Em: Of course.

Christine: –better, better healthcare, you know. Um, no, but seriously like the fact that you would have this horrible thought with your friend. You’ve already got somebody who’s on the same page as you somehow, and you’re both close friends with this person. And then on top of that, you’re like, “Oh, now let me call my other friend and tell him about this great idea, so that he can make a movie about it”?

Em: Mm.

Christine: God, what– So embarrassing. God, so fucking douchey and so embarrassing. It just– Eugh. Okay. So apparently Sarah told them about the money. They were trying to figure out, um, you know, how to get the money from her, and he said, “But the bummer is on the day–“ I don’t know if he said “the bummer.” But he basically told– In the same, you know, vibrato as he mentioned the FBI being on his ass, he told Anthony that the day he killed Sarah, she only withdrew ten grand from her deposit box, not the full amount.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So basically, Em, they killed her for ten grand total.

Em: So five each.

Christine: Yeah. Liam had–

Em: Also like– So–

Christine: Also to be fair they believed she had more money than that, but s– It doesn’t ma– I mean, not that that ma– matters, but–

Em: But also the, uh, like how– What’s the story behind her taking ten grand out of the bank that day? Like did he say she should do that or like–? Like ’cause why would they have thought she would take all that money out all at once? Like what’s their stor– Why was he at the bank with her? Did he suggest like, “You should totally go just like take all the money out of your bank. Ha-ha-ha.”

Christine: That’s a, that’s a very good question. I don’t know.

Em: Yeah, I wonder what the story is where he’s like, “Oh, she only took out 10 grand when I was expecting the 25.” Why were you expecting 25? Why were you expecting her to go to the bank and take any money out? Like what’s the story there?

Christine: Agreed. Agreed.

Em: And also like you’re obviously talking about it with her for her to go, “Oh, yeah. I just took out ten grand.” Like how– Like why’d she even take ten grand out? Where were you going?

Christine: I know. I don’t– I don’t–

Em: Maybe he was convincing her to actually move to Canada and was like–

Christine: I mean, maybe. Maybe he thought he could like get her to start taking money out and prep for her– Yeah, maybe.

Em: Maybe he was being super encouraging about moving to Canada, and she was like, “Okay, I took out ten grand to get started or something.” And then he was like, “Fuck! Not the whole thing?”

Christine: Well, he actually said quote, and I fucking quote, “The worst part of it is I thought I was walking out with 50 grand, 100 grand in my pocket.” Like he didn’t even know how much money there was. So he’s just telling himself, “Oh, I’m gonna make like 100 grand off this,” and he basically felt cheated because he only got like 5 grand. This is insane.

Em: Well, that bitch. Like that’s–

Christine: Like I know, right? “That’s the worst part” is what he says. Jesus Chri– I mean, I can’t. Liam told Anthony he’s the only person who knew about Sarah’s murder and made it clear that he and Preston would kill Anthony too if he became like a liability.

Em: Right.

Christine: And Anthony’s like, “ No, man. I would never say anything.” [laughs] Oh my god.

Em: Oh my god. Sorry–

Christine: Imagine the wire. And then you’re like, “Thank god he didn’t find a wire.”

Em: Last thing I’m going to say– Sorry, I know, I know we just stepped away from this conversation about like how much money there was. But like so he knew that she had only ten grand and he still fucking killed her? Like for being that disappointed that it’s not 100 grand and you realize you’re about to get 5?

Christine: You know, I don’t– Well, I don’t know if he knew how much she took out until he killed her and then went through her stuff. You know what I mean?

Em: I see. Okay, you’re right. You’re right. You’re right.

Christine: He basically said like, “She went and got money out, then I killed her and realized it was only five grand.”

Em: Right.

Christine: So I think like he thought she took out some massive quantity of cash–

Em: Gotcha.

Christine: –and didn’t find out until after he had killed her.

Em: Gotcha. Okay, sorry. Going back.

Christine: No, no. That’s–

Em: So he has now threatened Anthony, his best friend. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, now he’s like, now he’s like, “You’re on the hook too. Preston and I will kill you if you become a liability.” And he’s like, “I would never do that. Please don’t look at my lapel mic that I am wearing right now.” [laughs]

Em: Yeah. [laughs] “If, if you hear any radio interference, no, you didn’t.”

Christine: “It’s, it’s, it’s a bucket of fake blood. I dropped my camera in it. Don’t worry about it. It’s just how it–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “This is what it sounds like.” Uh, the detectives basically are listening to this like, “Holy shit.” He then thanked Anthony for meeting. Like it sounds like he wanted to like tell him–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –’cause he had asked him to meet up a few times, and it, it sounded like he wanted to either tell him or like make sure– maybe make sure he didn’t have any loose ends like–

Em: I think that’s what it was, yeah.

Christine: That must be what it is, yeah. So the detectives arrested Preston, um, immediately, uh, and they basically took him in because they didn’t want to like swoop in and say, “Oh, you’re under arrest. He was wearing a wire.” Like–

Em: Right.

Christine: You know, “Anthony was w-working with us.” So they let that be for now and let Liam think that Anthony was not–

Em: He was in the clear.

Christine: Yeah, that he was in the clear. And they went and arrested Preston who confessed immediately.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And one detective actually said it was the fastest anyone had ever confessed in his entire detective career, so. Fucking loser.

Em: Damn, like before the handcuffs were even on. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah. Just like, “Okay, I did it.” So Preston told them that Liam had come home that night after work and said he quote “did it,” that he had done it.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Liam had killed Sarah and had gone to work, and now he said, “I need your help to move her body.” And Preston went with Liam to move Sarah into her car, then drove a separate car, while Liam drove Sarah in her own car to the bridge. There–

Em: Mm, which is why it looked like she went to the bridge.

Christine: Yes, went there and left it alone, exactly. There, they were going to push her body into the river while Preston drove by, and then Liam would just jump into Preston’s car. But Liam wasn’t strong enough to lift Sarah himself. Loser again – just I can’t stand this guy. I, I just– Fucking– He thinks he’s–

Em: He wasn’t even strong enough to lift her? But he’s like the–

Christine: No. He thinks he’s like such a badass. It makes me crazy.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Fucking jackass.

Em: Also well, like who are his friends where he just like went to two different people unprompted and said, “Oh, yeah. I killed her.”

Christine: Right?

Em: Like–

Christine: And why is everyone so shocked? It seems like this guy is a bad dude. Like has he never shown this side of himself before? You know what I mean? Like has nobody been like, “That guy kind of sucks.” Like it seems like everyone liked him–

Em: That’s so weird. That’s so weird.

Christine: –and found him pretty normal, you know? He never–

Em: I–

Christine: He also didn’t have any, any record, any criminal record like nothing. Just so weird.

Em: I do feel like Preston probably watched him from like his own car, watching this guy trying to lift the body, not even be able to do it, and he’s just like, “Oh my fucking god. Like this guy–“

Christine: Like, “How did I ra– How did I get roped into this shit, you know?”

Em: Yeah, like he–

Christine: Like–

Em: Watching him struggle through something that like if you’re going to try to get away with this, you have to be weirdly seamless with it.

Christine: Eugh. Yeah, this is not– Right, it’s not well planned. It’s not– No, it’s, it’s, it’s, just so fucking tragic.

Em: Yeah, I don’t–

Christine: So, right. So Preston basically has to park his car and get out, and then they’re both putting Sarah into the river. [sighs] So that is–

Em: Oh god, that’s so sad.

Christine: It’s so sad. It’s like when you think about what– how– I mean it’s, it’s honestly sickening, um.

Em: And also poor Preston. Like he was just probably like eating mac and cheese at home, and then all of a sudden, he now has to go help lift a body into the river.

Christine: Well, he had been– To be fair, he had spent months plotting how to, to steal all this money.

Em: Oh, right. Right.

Christine: So he knew this was coming, or he at least knew for the most part it was coming. He’s very much involved. Do not worry.

Em: Okay.

Christine: No poor Preston here.

Em: Okay, gotcha.

Christine: Um, also he picked up a body and dumped it in the river, so.

Em: Right.

Christine: Either– Even if you were surprised and eating mac and cheese, that was not the right move, you know. Um, so police take Pr-Preston, who had, uh, confessed immediately, to the bridge, and they actually put him in a life jacket. Like they forced him into a life jacket ’cause they were worried he would try to jump. Um, but he was just really calm, like eerily so.

Em: Eugh.

Christine: And just like Liam in Anthony’s interview, he just seemed like completely emotionless. So either these two psychopaths like happened to m-move in together and were like, “Great, we’re both the same. Let’s fuck some shit up,” you know. I, I don’t know because they just seemed com-completely unfazed by the who– by killing one of their closest and longest friends.

Em: That’s crazy.

Christine: It’s just bizarre to me. Um, then Preston took investigators to the Sandy Hook lighthouse where they had buried a safe filled with some of Sarah’s money. And Preston agreed to testify against Liam, and he pled guilty as part of a deal to multiple charges, including disturbing or desecrating human remains, conspiracy to desecrate human remains, robbery, conspiracy to com-commit robbery, and tampering with physical evidence, but in exchange, the murder was basically off the table.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And the, you know– Any sort of, uh, additional charges were off the table, and he would testify against Liam as part of this deal. So the trial began January 23, 2019, and, uh, before the trial Liam’s defense team, uh, tried but failed, thankfully, to suppress the video confession that he had made to Anthony. Because that’s not a good look for your client to have a video saying–

Em: Nope.

Christine: –“Oh, the wo–, the suckiest part is I didn’t get as much money as I wanted,” you know, and so they were not able to cape– keep that out of the trial, so that’s good.

Em: Good.

Christine: And once it was played at the trial, the defense argued that the confession was actually an audition for a film. Isn’t that creative?

Em: Are you fucking kidding me?

Christine: Th– No, I’m not kidding. They claimed Liam was only acting and was just trying to impress Anthony and get into another– you know, into one of his movies. Are you insane? I mean, what are you even talking about?

Em: Did the whole jury just roll their eyes? Like sometimes I wonder what the defense thinks the other people are gonna think.

Christine: I know. I know. I know. Who comes up with this shit?

Em: I would– It’s one– another one of those things where I’m like I know a defense lawyer– like I know this is your job, but like, at some point, don’t you just look in the mirror and go like, “Eugh, I don’t like that this is my job.”

Christine: Sometimes it’s gotta feel really bad.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Sometimes you probably do really believe like, “I’m doing the right thing,” whatever, but sometimes you gotta be like, “Uh-oh.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But yeah, I mean, listen. Everyone’s has a right to a fair trial, so someone’s got to stand up for you, you know. Someone’s gotta do it.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So Liam’s mother even testified that Liam wouldn’t have been so stoic and like unemotional if he were actually confessing to a murder.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And I’m like, “Mm, or, or he’s just a sociopath, and he doesn’t care. But whatever.” And Anthony testified that there had never been any discussion about an audition or a movie and was like, “No, that is not what was happening.” Liam had gotten into Anthony’s car, searched for a wire, acknowledged he was being investigated by the FBI for Sarah’s murder, and then described the crime in detail. It’s not a movie audition. This is literally what happened.

Em: [laughs] Oh my god.

Christine: And then Preston said, “Yeah, that is what happened.” You know, it’s like, “Okay, nice try with the au– movie audition.” But anyway, there was simply no reason to believe that this was like a fake confession, and so pretty much the jury did roll their eyes and say, “Okay, we see what’s happening here.”

Em: Yeah, “this feels stupid.” [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, “this feels like a big lie.” So detectives also discovered the key to the buried safe containing Sarah’s money on Liam’s key ring when he was arrested.

Em: Dude.

Christine: He literally had the key to her fucking sa– the safe with her money in it on his key ring. Fucking dumbass.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: His early interviews– Oh, by the way, so now they go back– Remember how they had done all those interviews with him? Well, of course, they had filmed them all, and so now that they’re– they have much more context, they go back and rewatch all those interviews they did with him. And they’re starting to like realize things aren’t adding up.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So they go back, and they listen to these interviews. And he talks about like how abusive her dad was and like how that must be why she left, but then they’re thinking, “He’s the only one that said this.”

Em: Right.

Christine: Like nobody else mentioned an abusive father relationship, and like her best friend, Carly, who lives next door, and Carly’s mom, Robin, did not seem to have any idea what they were talking about–

Em: Right.

Christine: –um, aside from just like an occasional argument or something, um, from a 19-year-old and her dad. But text messages also corroborated that because when they looked at their phones, Sarah and Michael had sent very like loving and like “I miss you” type messages when he was going to Florida with Christine.

Em: Ugh.

Christine: And there was just only proof that they had a perfectly normal relationship, so.

Em: I-Imagine the rage in this dad who wants to like absolutely–

Christine: Can you– I know.

Em: –like beat the dog shit out of this guy.

Christine: I know. I know. It’s just like one thing on top of another.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Sarah’s aunt testified that Sarah did plan to move to Canada, but she had agreed to wait until the summer of 2017 so she could like make more solid plans. Because her aunt knew she had found that money.

Em: Right.

Christine: And her aunt was like, “Why don’t we just like sit on it for a minute? Like make real plans before you just up and leave, you know?” And so she testified. And Sarah also had decided to stay in Jersey a little longer because her 96-year-old grandmother, um, had been planning to move to Florida, and she’s like, “I want to be here with her while she’s local, you know, before she moves to, uh, a retirement community or whatever.” Um.

Em: Makes sense. So she had like a good head on her shoulders and was responsible with this money. Like–

Christine: Yes. Yes, yes. And it just all seems– It was just all so thrown out of context, you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Sarah actually made plans to go to bartending school because she wanted to work at night and make art during the day. Um, she had also already planned a trip to Broadway in New York just after Christmas.

Em: Ooh.

Christine: She had gotten Christmas gifts for her grandma. Um, she was planning a short vacation with one of her friends to go to Canada and scope it out and see like potential neighborhoods. It’s just heartbreaking ’cause like–

Em: She was doing the l– the long game of this though.

Christine: She was.

Em: Like she wasn’t gonna just spontaneously go.

Christine: And she was like enjoying it. Yeah, and she was like, “I just wanna, you know, make art and like explore a new country.” It’s just so heartbreaking. And so, you know, it was just obvious to everybody that knew Sarah that she was like making plans and, um, you know, ha– like having ideas of Christmas gifts, even though it was weeks away. Like there’s no– It– There was not a plan or an immediate obvious plan for her to run away or die by suicide.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: All of these testimonies, of course, painted a completely different picture than what Liam had described, which was that this young woman was depressed, manipulative, obsessive, afraid of her father. Like kind of that psycho girl– ex-girlfriend vibe he tried to paint her with. And he’d even lied about Sarah being fired from her job. Remember when he said, “Oh, she’s been, um, fired,” and police were like, “Oh, you know, that’s often a trigger.” Well, nope, um–

Em: She’s unstable, yeah.

Christine: Yeah, exactly. So her former boss actually testified that she was a great employee, and she had quit her job to focus on art. But like there were no hard feelings–

Em: Of course.

Christine: –and like there was nothing there that was sketchy at all. Although they were not able to find a body in the case, which is always, you know, a questionable like outcome– like can we convince a jury without a body? Um, it was Liam’s taped confession to Anthony and Preston’s testimony against Liam that were compelling enough proof that Sarah was indeed dead.

Em: Well, yeah. There’s no, there’s no, uh, evidence quite like being wired and having your own best friend go against you.

Christine: A full– a f– Right. A full first-person confession on camera à la a movie audition. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Right, right. Sorry, it’s just an audition.

Christine: And your best fr– Your– And your r– “It’s just an audition!” And your roommate being like, “Yeah, no. We did it.” Yeah, it’s just not a good look. However, the [laughs]– the fucking– It’s nothing. I, I– It’s not a plot twist. It tries to be. [sighs] In an attempt to cast doubt on Sarah’s death altogether, the defense– You remember how creative they are, right?

Em: Uh-huh.

Christine: They call a witness to the stand who claims he saw Sarah Stern alive the day after she was killed.

Em: What?

Christine: And he claims so vividly. He drove past her with his son. She was walking down the street, and he apparently told his son, “That is an awfully good-looking girl to be walking on the street at 5 o’clock in the morning.” And days later–

Em: Why would you say that to your son?

Christine: First of all, why would you say that to your son? And why is nobody saying that’s weird? But okay. And then days later, apparently, he saw a picture of her, flyer of her, or saw her on the news and recognized that he had seen her. And he said there was no doubt. He was 100% sure. He absolutely had seen her and was completely confident. But despite that recollection, he did mix up the day he claimed to have seen Sarah and had to be corrected on the stand, which is not a good look. And–

Em: Awkward.

Christine: Awkward. And he also testified that he had not spoken to any detectives about seeing Sarah that day. And in response, detectives played a recording of the interview they did indeed have with him for the courtroom.

Em: Oh for god’s sake.

Christine: And his credibility fell completely apart, and the defense was like, “Oh, darn it.” So Liam did not testify. That’s probably for the best, and the jury found–

Em: Yeah, “just keep your mouth shut at this point.”

Christine: Honestly, at this point–

Em: “Everyone you talk to is an enemy for you.” [laughs]

Christine: “This is not a movie audition. How many times do we have to tell you?"

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: “You’re in a court of law. Okay? On trial for murder.” So Liam was ultimately sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, and that’s actually the most severe sentence in New Jersey now that the death penalty has been abolished.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Preston, meanwhile, was sentenced to 18 years in prison for his involvement, and he is required to serve at least 15 years of the sentence. Liam’s team appealed for a retrial, arguing once again that the video confession to Anthony Curry was not admissible in court. They, they didn’t say the audition thing again I don’t think, but they were hinting at it.

Em: They were like, “That– Even that was too stupid.” [laughs]

Christine: “Even that was silly– Even we know that’s silly.” Yeah. Likewise Preston appealed for a shorter sentence, and both were denied and are both still in prison today. And of course, Sarah is the, you know, the heart of the story. Um, she has been remembered as a wonderful artist. Apparently, they, they held a memorial service, um, in her honor where a thousand people attended, and they founded this scholarship in her memory. And the whole building– I have chills. The whole building was decked out in all her art.

Em: Aw.

Christine: They had just displayed it throughout the whole memorial service, and a thousand people came. Um, and one friend– They, they played– Oh my gosh. They played clips of different friends and what they said at the memorial service, and like people were laughing and crying. And it was just really beautiful ’cause like her dad said he just sat there and watched all these people talk about his daughter and like how much she had meant to them, and it was just very moving. Um, and yeah, one of them just said, you know, “I’ve never seen anyone love an animal as much as Sarah loved her dog, Buddy,” and that one kind of stuck with me, so.

Em: Poor Buddy.

Christine: That’s the story of Sarah Stern.

Em: Wow. Certainly plot twists and, um.

Christine: Yes, yes, yes.

Em: Certainly–

Christine: I wished, I wished for a better plot twist.

Em: Well, yeah.

Christine: I wished that there was a Canadian plot twist. I wished, but there was not.

Em: I wish the plot twist was that she was alive, um, but.

Christine: I know, me too. Me too. That would have been really nice.

Em: But that, that, um, audition one. I mean, it just– Once again, the narcissism of men is just insane.

Christine: It’s, it’s, it’s–

Em: The cockiness of like, “I can tell anyone I want anything I’m thinking, and I’ll get away with it.”

Christine: “And I’ll just say it’s a movie idea.” Okay, sure.

Em: Yeah. And all– “And it was also her fault because she should have had more money.”

Christine: “Yeah, it wasn’t even worth it.

Em: “To make me killing her worth it. Like she d–“

Christine: “‘Cause she–“

Em: “She deflated my fun in killing her. What a bitch.”

Christine: [sighs] Oh god. It’s just so dark. It’s so dark.

Em: Yuck.

Christine: Anyway, so what do you want to talk about in the Yappy Hour today? [laughs]

Em: I don’t know. I was going to say at least we’re recording our, um, uh, Listeners’ Episode after this so you can drink after.

Christine: Thank god. Oh, you’re right. Wow, it’s 4:30 p.m. I’m ready.

Em: Alright, uh, we’ll figure it out when we get there, I guess. We’ll talk about our– Whatever, whatever, uh, finds us I suppose we’ll chat about.