Transcript
[intro music]
Christine: [singing] ♪ Christmas time is here / Hah-sa-fwah sa-fwah / Hah-sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah / sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah ♪
Em: Second verse, now up an octave! [laughs]
Christine: ♪ Sleigh bills in the air [laughs] / Music everywhere / Hah-sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah / sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah ♪♪ [speaking] Here’s the thing. We got bullied at our book signing into singing the Thanksgiving song. And it was our fault bec– it was deserved because we had forgotten to do it before Thanksgiving as, you all know now, we did it last week, which was December. Oops. We got bullied– I will not be bullied into singing high notes anywhere.
Em: I do think if I told you I was just gonna run out to the dry cleaner’s and left you alone, you could do that the entire time, and you wouldn’t even feel like–
Christine: Oh, this? Yeah, I wouldn’t even notice.
Em: Time went away. No.
Christine: Yeah, that’s right. I go into like an alternate space. Um, hello, everyone. We’re in mid-December. That means it is, uh– The holidays are moving and grooving. And, uh, we here over at 98.ATWWD are, uh, thrilled to share with you all the holiday classics and oldies to–
Em: [singing in a jingle style] ♪ 98.ATWWD ♪♪
Christine: That was really good! That was really good!
Em: [singing] Da-da-da ♪♪ [speaking] Oh, thanks. Uh, well.
Christine: I love that. Let’s change our show to– name. Is it too late? [laughs]
Em: Okay. [laughs]
Christine: Did we already buy the domain for the– for other one?
Em: I– We could buy two. ¿Por qué no los dos?
Christine: Squarespace. Squarespace?
Em: Um, yeah, no, we– I’m glad you– I tried to keep my mouth shut ’cause every time, I know you, you want your spotlight moment with that song. ’Cause I certainly can’t sing it.
Christine: Thank you for letting me, thank you for letting me– No, you have a way better singing voice than I do. But I– Thank you for letting me do it ’cause I wanted that moment where you int– you finally waited, and then you spoke, and then I immediately sang over you. And it just like, to me, was a really, um– It felt fulfilling. So thank you for letting me have that even though it was pretty rude of me.
Em: No [laughs] I, uh, I wish– You know how, um, we have our title card, the– with the And That’s Why We Drink theme song? Maybe for our Christmas episodes, we should just have you singing and like–
Christine: [laughs]
Em: If Megan could ever put your face in where the MGM lion goes. [laughs]
Christine: Okay. [laughs] Just being like [singing] ♪ Hah-sa-fwah ♪♪
Em: [laughs] I mean–
Christine: Um, did you know, uh– I was gonna say like some podcasts, like Astonishing Legends, they put like little jingle bells during the holidays.
Em: Oh, that’s nice.
Christine: Like for their, for their opening music. And I was like, “Oh, Em’s gonna suggest that.” No, ours is much darker and more sinister.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: It’s me singing at a very unpleasant octave.
Em: It’s– You know what? It’s a tradition at this point, so.
Christine: It’s unfortunately is, yes.
Em: M– One day, we’ll do “Pass the Cranberry Sauce” but like we’ll have them drop our voices down several octaves and in slow-mo with a lot of echo and reverb.
Christine: Oh, and it’ll be ver–
Em: And it’ll sound like a horror movie.
Christine: Oh, I love that idea. We’ll just start changing the vibes up, um, depending on the season.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Well, Em, besides, obviously, this show that you got unsolicited and unasked for, what– why do you drink this week?
Em: Mm. Why do I drink? Oh, you know what? When we were in Charleston, I got recognized by quite a few people, which is always lovely, but, um, I had one encounter where someone came up and said, “What’s going on? You look really tired.” [laughs]
Christine: Mm!
Em: I was like, “I’m not. I just fucking look old, I guess. I don’t know. I–“
Christine: I mean, to– if anyone has the right to look tired, it would be us, at least while we’re on tour.
Em: I– But I wasn’t– I like literally wasn’t even tired. They were like, “Oh, you just look really tired.” And I was like, “Is that your opener? I don’t– I don’t know what to- You look tired! Shut up. Leave me alone.”
Christine: Wow. Maybe, maybe I should get– What did you even say? Did you say like, “I’m not”? Or were you like, “Oh, maybe,” to like play it off?
Em: I di– I j– I didn’t know what to say. I–
Christine: Like do they know that they’ve just sent you into a tizzy?
Em: Well, now they do.
Christine: I know they do– Well, obviously. But did they know at the time?
Em: It did catch me off guard, so maybe I looked like flustered after that. I don’t know. I just d– I just was like– I didn’t think that was like s– I just didn’t see it coming. I don’t know.
Christine: I mean, usually I feel like, uh– As a woman myself, I usually get that comment when I’m not wearing makeup, ’cause it’s like people–
Em: Yeah, and I don’t wear makeup.
Christine: –people like catch like, “Oh, you just look– you know, you haven’t covered up the circles under your eyes and stuff.” Maybe, maybe– I mean, I know you never wear makeup, so I don’t know, but– Um.
Em: That’s not– I mean, that– That– And I didn’t mean to like come on here and like, oh, weirdly come after somebody. That’s not what I was trying to do. But if– But–
Christine: I was gonna say, “Wow, they’re definitely peeing their pants and crying right now.”
Em: [laughs] But in the, but in the moment of like, “Why do I drink?” I was like, “What’s happened recently that kind of jarred me?” I was just like, “Oh, I, I– Maybe I am– Maybe I need to go to a spa or something.”
Christine: You should– [laughs]
Em: I don’t know. [laughs] I need to like get my wrinkles un-wrinkled or something.
Christine: You should go to, uh– You should go to that Korean spa– those Korea spas in, uh, Koreatown where I used to live where they will just, uh, exfoliate all the layers of your skin off. They’ll just– [laughs]
Em: I think I need to peel a whole layer off my face now.
Christine: Oh, they’ll get it off. Don’t worry. [laughs]
Em: No, I was– I didn’t know what to say. I was just like, “Oh, I– You know.” I, I think I said something like, “Oh, you know, traveling.” But then that probably– Then that like justified that they were right, and like I– They weren’t, but anyway, anyway. It like– It– I don’t know.
Christine: I mean, okay, to be fair, they said, “You look tired.” So maybe they were right. Maybe even though you didn’t feel it–
Em: Maybe I do look tired. I didn’t f– I didn’t feel tired. I felt fine.
Christine: Maybe you just l– Maybe you had a, a droopy eye like I do.
Em: I do have a droopy eye. It’s called the Schulz eye. Uh, one of–
Christine: Oh, ours is called the Kaiser eye. [laughs]
Em: Oh, hey. Alright. No, one of my eyes is like, um, uh, like kind– like s– in some ways hooded. Like I– Some– When I wake up, I have a hooded eye–
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just–
Em: –and then it slowly lifts itself.
Christine: It’s just a dr– It’s just droopier. That’s what, um– Well, that’s why you always make fun of my one eye. ’Cause when I’m sleepy, the one eye droops more. And so when I wake up, it’s like I always wake up like that [closes her left eye fully]
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And then when I fall asleep while drinking with you, I do the opposite, and it closes. So it’s sort of like– opens and shuts the blinds early.
Em: It’s– Yeah, I don’t know what’s going on with that one eyelid. Because sometimes when I get up and I look in the mirror, it literally– I don’t have an eyelid. Like it’s like completely covered, but only on one side of my face. And then the other one of my eyes is like wide open. It’s very odd.
Christine: That sounds like you’re like the Babadook or something. I would be careful looking in the mirror.
Em: [laughs] Oh. Well, uh, anyway–
Christine: “I look in the mirror, and I don’t have any eyelids.” Okay, Re– uh, Em. You’re– I almost called you “Renée”. That’s how bad this has gotten. Okay.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: [laughs]
Em: No, I don’t know. I just I– I’ve– Regardless of how I look, if you, if you bump into me, uh, I’m feeling quite refreshed and, and good these days, so I don’t, I don’t know. Maybe you saw something. Maybe you–
Christine: Maybe you had hat hair, you know. And it was like, “Oh, it looks like you–“
Em: Maybe, and I just looked disheveled.
Christine: And to be fair, we always talk about how tired and in need of naps we are on the show. So maybe they just kind of like read–
Em: Put two and two together?
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: Maybe they were opening the door for me to say something about naps and like that’d be like the bit that I gave off. I don’t know.
Christine: I’ve just never actually taken offense to that I think, personally, so I, I d– I don’t want anyone to freak out out there like, “Oh my god. I said that one time or I we–“ Listen, it doesn’t bo– it doesn’t phase me any, but, um, I can understand why it would be– why it would rub you the wrong way, but, um–
Em: I think I was just more surprised than rubbed the wrong way.
Christine: Okay.
Em: I was just like, “Oh, what, what’s, what’s that about?” So then–
Christine: So don’t feel–
Em: Now it made me second, uh, second guess whether or not I should go to bed. [laughs]
Christine: Well, don’t– [laughs]
Em: I was like, “Maybe I should go to bed.”
Christine: Don’t feel anxious, uh, out there, folks, because people have said a lot weirder things to us, and we’ve said a lot weirder things to other people. I was– Somebody at the book signing said to us, “I still think about the time we posed for a picture and then realized we never gave them our camera. We were all just sitting there, standing there, posed for a picture. And we think about it every night, and it’s so humiliating.” And Em and I were like, “We don’t remember that, but we promise we remember things we’ve done that were just mortally embarrassing.” So don’t worry. Like everyone has their own little, uh, you know, stories in their head. But don’t, don’t stress. I-it’s, it’s okay to, um, say the wrong thing sometimes, even if Em roasts you on their podcast. [laughs]
Em: I’ve said much worse things. I’m not– Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, we say much dumber things everyday.
Em: I mean, I do r– One time– I’ve– I said this at the book signing to somebody else because I was trying to like ease their–
Christine: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: I said to somebody at a book signing–
Christine: No, th–
Em: If you’re this person–
Christine: Oh, sorry.
Em: –please keep it to yourself because I’m so embarrassed about it. [laughs] Um, don’t let anyone know that you’re the person I said this to. I, uh, I was trying to compliment someone, and I think, uh, the cute aggression came out. And I said something about like, “I just wanna like punch you in the face.” [laughs] I said something really unnecessarily violent, and I meant it as a compliment.
Christine: I– Yeah.
Em: And I think about it all the time.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: So, um.
Christine: Yeah, well, I mean, it is– It’s a good one to think about, you know. It’s a good one to ruminate on [laughs] and really do some introspection.
Em: [laughs] I know. [sighs] And then half of, half of the interaction after that was just me apologizing and making it weirder ’cause I was like, “I promise I didn’t mean I actually wanna punch you in the face.” It–
Christine: Was that the place– I’m not gonna say it. I’m not gonna locate it. But was that the place where afterward we like all wandered around in, in the store for a long time? Was that that signing?
Em: I don’t know. I don’t know when. It’s all a haze to me.
Christine: With the inflatable tiara?
Em: Maybe I am tired. Shit, I don’t know.
Christine: Was it the day of the inflatable tiara?
Em: Yeah, I don’t know. Uh, I d–
Christine: Oh.
Em: All I remember is saying something just so fucking wild that I can’t remember anything else, so.
Christine: Well, I don’t remember it apparently, so. Don’t worry.
Em: [laughs] Anyway, I– if I look tired, I think I can, uh, I can take that compared to “I wanna punch you in the face.” [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, that would have been a much more, uh, different meeting between you and a listener.
Em: I think if someone said that though, I would have been like, “Oh, I get it. I don’t know why that one would bother me less.” I don’t know. [laughs]
Christine: What if they– [laughs] What if they said– Well, now people are just gonna jokingly come up to us and say they’re gonna punch us in the face, and we’re gonna be so startled every time. And it’s gonna be like, “No, like that inside joke.”
Em: I won’t. I– ’Cause I already think about that phrase all the time.
Christine: I know, but I don’t. I feel like I’ve just gotten caught in the crossfire. [laughs] People are gonna be like, “I wanna punch you.” And we’re gonna be like, “What?” [laughs] [sighs]
Em: Well, now that’s what happens when we’re a team. Now you have to deal with it.
Christine: You can tell me I look tired. You can tell E– How about I get the tired comments ’cause it– I am tired, yes, and B, I look it.
Em: Perfect.
Christine: And how about– C, I don’t care. And Em, on the other hand, can take the punches.
Em: Yeah. Perfect.
Christine: That’s how we’ll do meet and greets.
Em: So anyway, I guess I drink because I, I need to face my, my aging, I guess. Maybe I just look older when people see me in real life. I don’t know.
Christine: I mean, a lot of our photos are also like seven years old, like our website and stuff.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So I don’t know. We probably all look older and tired. Tireder.
Em: So maybe I just need to, maybe I just need to f– come to terms with something. Maybe that’s what I need to do.
Christine: Maybe you need one of those Taylor Swift back braces that makes you stand up really straight.
Em: Oh, okay.
[glass clinks - start of ad break]
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[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break]
Em: Why do you drink?
Christine: Oh, thank you so much for asking. Well, first of all, I went to Walgreens today, and I bought this, uh, BodyArmor. And it’s my favorite flavor, strawberry grape, which probably sounds gross to a lot of people, but it’s really fucking good. Um, and–
Em: “Grawberry.”
Christine: Oh, “grawberry.” That– Mm. Sure. Uh, yeah. We’ll, uh, we’ll circle back to that, Em.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Um, circle back to “grawberry.” Uh, anyway, so I bought this at Walgreens, and I don’t know. I thought I’d treat myself to a non, non-water drink. Um, but the reason I drink is ’cause of this little fella. [reaches offscreen to grab something] Hold on. Here it comes. Here it comes. [holds up a branch with a small mourning dove perched on it]
Em: Oh, you got yourself a little– Is it– Was it once a live bird?
Christine: [coos like a mourning dove] Oo, ooh. Oo, ooh.
Em: That sounds like a yes to me.
Christine: No, he’s a carving. I wouldn’t do– I wouldn’t– I would not want a real dead bird in my house.
Em: That’s a– It– That’s a carve– like carved and painted? That looks real.
Christine: It’s unbelievable. Like it’s–
Em: It’s looks rea– I literally thought it was a dead bird.
Christine: All, all the texture on it is carved.
Em: You know, I’ve always been so jealous of whittlers.
Christine: Yeah, he like clearly was talented at this. So the guy– Okay, so you know how I’m back on– Well, you don’t know until now. But I’m back on my estate sale bullshit again. Um, as you know, I go through phases. And so today, I went to pick this guy up ’cause I won him. I’d been– I was in a, I was in a fierce bidding war for this fella, um, but, uh, mourning doves are my favorite bird.
Em: Oh.
Christine: I think you and I have discussed mourning doves before. Um, or maybe you’re just like, “What are you even talking about?” But–
Em: That feels right.
Christine: I think it feels right. It’s the one that go– that’s– coos like in the morning. Anyway, I love mourning doves, and they always think– make me think of my stepmom. And this is very full circle– Well, first of all, the guy who made it, uh– Okay, look. He wrote on the bottom. I don’t know if you can see it, and it’s upside down. But it basically says, “Mourning dove,” and it’s this, um, explorer– or not explorer. This like naturalist–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: –and, uh, pres-preservationist guy from Ohio who died. And he made– This is number 1 out of 80 mourning doves that he made, and, um–
Em: The fact that he made that and then thought, “79 more for me.” I’m like what? That would have been my proudest joy.
Christine: To be fair, it says– To be fair, it says 1 out of 80. I don’t know that maybe he filled up all the 80. Maybe he did 2 out of 80 and went, “Never mind. That’s enough.” [laughs] And now they just–
Em: He’s like, “78 more to come.” [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, and now they just say, “1 out of 80.” [laughs] But it says 1 out of 80, and I was in a little bidding war for this guy. But I really, really, really, really, really wanted him. And, um, he’s just perfect. I had to put a little wood glue under his foot there ’cause he’s a little wobbly. Um, but I think what I’m gonna do is gift him to my stepmother–
Em: Mm.
Christine: –because growing up for Christmas– ’Cause growing up, we always had, um, a lot of mourning doves in our yard. And my stepmom used to like teach us about mourning doves, and, um, I don’t know. It’s just something I associate with her. And it’s full circle because [laughs] in high school or middle school after she made me go to tern research island. Remember where we had the pointed sticks and all that?
Em: Oh yeah.
Christine: Uh– Yeah. So after that, as a– as some sort of like– she s– as some sort of sick gift– I d– I forget what I had like asked for for Christmas. I don’t know. Some new boots or something. And she is like, “Here’s your big present.” And it’s in this big box, and I’m thinking like, “Oh, finally. They actually got me something I wanted. That’s exciting.” I open up this box, and it’s a frickin’– I mean, talk about PTSD trigger. It’s this giant statu– carved wooden statue of a tern. And I was like, “Wahh!” And I was like, “I don’t want that in my room. I can’t look at that.” And she was like, “What? Why?” And I was like, “We had the most nightmarish like attack of the birds incident a few months ago.” And to her, I guess, it was just charming and delightful. I was traumatized. So anyway, we had this bird statue, and it became like this running joke in the family like, “I don’t want the tern statue–“
Em: [laughs]
Christine: “–even though like she spent so much money on it. It was such a big deal. And she had it personally carved. Blah-blah-blah.” I was like, “I don’t want a statue of a bird for Christmas. Thank you. I’m also 14.” Um, and then, today, I s– Or I bou– I bought this.
Em: It’s beautiful.
Christine: And I was like, “Oh, this’ll be a nice like a kind of an apology gift ‘cause I was probably being kind of an asshole.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: But, B: like it’s the bird that always made me think of her. And she’s like a huge, um, bird nerd, and, uh, and, uh, nature nerd. So I think she’ll really like it. So anyway, he’s– I picked him up today, and he’s my new pride and joy.
Em: I– Have you named him yet? I feel like that’s coming.
Christine: You know, I haven’t. I haven’t.
Em: I feel like that’s coming.
Christine: I could call him Chauncey Bliss, but we already have one of those, I guess.
Em: Also I think you’ll get too emotionally attached and then not want to give Chauncy Bliss to another person.
Christine: I, I– I was, I was about to say. I’m so worried. I’m so worried about giving him away because I’m like– I mean, I assume someday I would get home back in the will, not to be dramatic or dark, but like, you know, it’s not like I’m gifting him like to someone I’ll never see again. But, um–
Em: I think about that too where I’m like, “Do I want this back later when it’s my turn?” [laughs]
Christine: Right? Yeah. Yes, and so I was like, “Well, I mean. But it– You know…” I don’t know. I haven’t decided yet–
Em: I–
Christine: Is how I feel.
Em: It is very– I really thought it was taxidermied. It looked so real.
Christine: Isn’t it gorgeous? And if you pet it’s–
Em: Like I mean, for that to just be wood is amazing.
Christine: It’s all wood, and he hand-whittled it, yeah, like you said. It’s beautiful.
Em: I’ve always been jealous of whittlers. I– The same, the same amount of jealousy I have for tinkerers.
Christine: You, you, you wou– I feel like you though fit that mold. Like you could, you could become that stepdad stereotype; like I think you have it in you.
Em: I’ve thought about it. I, I have, um– There–
Christine: Too many sharp tools for me, but I think you could really pull it off.
Em: There– Thank you. There are a few times where I’ve thought like, “I could go for a new hobby,” and whittling always comes up. But then I always think–
Christine: Okay.
Em: It’s, it’s a skill that I’d get too frustrated about that I didn’t nail the first time, and then I would give up.
Christine: You get it?
Em: What?
Christine: You didn’t “nail” it the first time
Em: Oh. [laughs]
Christine: Uh, yes. Well, I think woodworking would be a great hobby for you, especially now that you have a little more space like outdoor– like a little outdoor space, um, at your new place.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I feel like you’d be really good at it, especially because like I’m not careful enough.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Like when I sew things, for example, they go like kinda like this “bllll” [makes wavy motion forward with hand], and it drives my mother up the wall. But I feel like you’re very preci– I mean, you’ve seen me hang curtains, but your crafting or when you’re like doing even just like stuff around visually, you’re, you’re good at that.
Em: Thank you.
Christine: So I, I could imagine you’d be a carving person. Carver.
Em: Thank you. Well, I think, uh, I probably learned that from being at the prop house because they, they tell you on day one there, it’s like, “One bad injury, and you’ll be really good at your job after that.”
Christine: Mm, that’s nice.
Em: And I was like, “Oh, okay.”
Christine: “Welcome to the team.”
Em: And, and they said, “At some point, it’s inevitable you will have a bad injury, and so just–“
Christine: Oh, they’re like, “Don’t fear it.”
Em: “The second you get cocky, you’ll have a bad injury.”
Christine: “Don’t fear it. It’ll happen whether you fear it or not. Don’t even worry.”
Em: Yeah, they said just, just be ready for it. And then it did. I had a really bad X-ACTO knife, uh–
Christine: Did you? Did you have to go to the ER?
Em: Yeah. I mean, I– Um, I probably should’ve.
Christine: Or did, or did you go to the ER is a better question.
Em: I didn’t. No, I probably should’ve. Uh, it’s fine now, obviously.
Christine: I mean that probably goes for most things, yeah.
Em: But, ever-everyone’s got a bad, a bad injury–
Christine: A bad prop house scar.
Em: [laughs] –from my old apartment. Yeah. I remember watching–
Christine: [sighs] Yeah.
Em: I remember watching someone have an X-ACTO knife injury, uh, and it was– Oh my god. It w– They had to go to the ER.
Christine: Oh!
Em: They, they had to go to the ER. For sure.
Christine: [sucks in breath] X-ACTO knife is the thing, and especially at a prop house when you know they’re like– I know they say like, oh, a, a dull blade is worse, but with an X-ACTO knife, I feel like it’s so close to your fingers that like that sharpness?
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Oh no, no, no.
Em: Yeah, yeah. It’s– I’m still, uh– I, I mean, I– Obviously, I have more confidence using it, but I’m still aware. Af– And they were right. After that one injury, you become much fucking better at, uh, being aware of your surroundings because you know you never want that to happen again.
Christine: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Em: Um, but anyway, I’ll– Maybe I’ll whip out the X-ACTO knife and, and risk it all again to whittle you a duck or something.
Christine: I– Honestly, if you whittled me a mallard, I would be over the fucking moon.
Em: Thank you.
Christine: Um, or a raven or something. Look, I, I, I want to show you the other thing i bought–
Em: Okay.
Christine: –in my, in my big bidding war. I had bought two things, and they were a little too pricey for what I was hoping to spend, but oh, well. Too late. I really wanted them. Um, here’s one: it’s a, it’s an advertising crate from the 1800s.
Em: Let me see. [looks at photo of an old wooden crate with writing painted on the side] Oh, that’s lovely.
Christine: I know, right? And I picked it up, and it is a lot bigger than I thought. Like it’s like a full crate. Like you can store like blankets in it and stuff.
Em: Ooh, okay. But how do you clean something like, like that? ’Cause in my mind, I’m like– I just feel like it would always smell old and not in a good way.
Christine: Yeah, I think it’ll probably just be decorative for the most part. Um, oh, and here’s the back. You’re gonna hate this part. Hold on.
Em: This feels like a box you could put like all the Christmas presents in or something.
Christine: Something like that. Like something kind of more o– display, display, not like, maybe not blankets. But, um– [shows photo of the crate with a drawing of a young child next to more writing]
Em: I do hate the child’s– You’re right.
Christine: Yeah, the child on the side is very alarming. Um, s– Okay, so what it is. It’s like this big crate. It’s an– and it has an advertising on the side called “Snow Boy Washing Powder.” And of course, it has a creepy little like– He looks like a Renaissance cherub dressed as the pope? I don’t know, but he looks very interesting.
Em: That’s pretty right.
Christine: And I guess he’s their mascot? Right? It’s a– [laughs] Uh, and it, it’s a crate that opens up on like these hinges. And they have all the little, um, wooden like pegs that they show that– how they interlocked back then instead of just– Never mind. It’s a dovetail, um–
Em: Mm-hmm. Okay, whittler.
Christine: –in a dr-dresser drawer. Yeah.
Em: You sound like a whittler all of a sudden.
Christine: Okay, well, maybe, maybe I’ll just be your apprentice. Uh, anyway, it says it’s from the, uh, late 19th century. So that’s pretty cool.
Em: Ooh!
Christine: And I like it a lot. And it’s, it’s big and cool. And, um, I just liked “Snow Boy Washing Powder” and thought it– And it looks, it looks pretty– It’s like pretty sturdy, so I don’t know what I’ll use it for. Maybe just like a trunk in like the entryway, um.
Em: Part of me feels like if it’s already that haunted, you might as well throw all your other haunted shit in there. And now you’ve got a place to store your haunted stuff.
Christine: Oh yeah. That’s true. I could just store my haunted shit in there. Yeah.
Em: I–
Christine: Yeah, trap them in a trunk. They’ll love that.
Em: Well, that would’ve been a perfect spot for all that fucking hay and haunted arsonist’s doll.
Christine: The straw. Oh my god.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, no, no. The arsonist’s doll [laughs]. Yeah, so–
Em: [laughs] Oh, man.
Christine: Anyway, fun fact. That is what, uh, that is what I got at the, uh, estate sale this week. Thank you for checking in, everyone.
Em: I– Well, I was wo– I was wondering about your– ’Cause you– There was something backstage you were trying to do on eBay. I guess you didn’t get that?
Christine: Oh, I did. That too. Sorry, I did get that too. The thing for a certain friend of ours?
Em: Am I losing my mind?
Christine: Oh, that one. The gnomes?
Em: The gnomes.
Christine: I did not get the gnomes. I’m so sorry. There was something at the last green room. I do this a lot.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: It was at the last green room when Eva’s sister, Julia, was backstage, and I’m try– I was trying to win something for Eva. And I did win that, which I was not expecting. But I think I–
Em: Mm. Well, congratulations.
Christine: Thank you so much. The guy said that to me too, and I was like, “Well, it’s just ’cause I spent the most money, but thank you.”
Em: [laughs] I–
Christine: Thank you.
Em: You– Next time I’m on an eBay kick, I’ll, um, fear for my life, uh, because apparently I’ll only get haunted things or, uh– I don’t know.
Christine: Yeah. No, I would–
Em: I, I imagine I’ll follow suit is what I’m saying.
Christine: Hey, I know, I know better. If I were to get you something, it would be like either some like– some memorabilia that would matter to you that’s not haunted or just like a little something haunted where I’m like– just on top of the real gifts for fun.
Em: [laughs] And I know you wouldn’t tell me it was haunted until I told you something happened, and then you’re like, “Okay, I have a confession.”
Christine: Yeah, well, of course. It would be a secret haunting.
Em: [sighs] You’re sick. I’ll tell you that.
Christine: It’s like a Trojan horse. I’ll put the haunted item inside a different item and be like, “How’s that teddy bear treating you?”
Em: [laughs] Yeah, the way you would ask too often would tell me immediately that I should put it in the dumpster.
Christine: [laughs] “Hey, has it, hey, has it started smiling or frowning or talking? Just wondering.”
Em: Next time, if you just went, “Has it begun?” I’ll be like, “What do you mean?”
Christine: Yeah. [laughs] “Has it begun?” Oh! That is my indication that no, it has not yet begun, that’s okay. Moving on.
Em: [laughs] And you’re drinking your “raw berry” or whatever it’s called.
Christine: Yeah, “grawberry.” I think that’s what you tried to coin.
Em: “Grawberry.” That’s what it is.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Well, you know, we’ve said three times now, so I think we– Coined! That’s what I think.
Christine: Coined. Coined! TM, TM!
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Em: I’m having an LD, obviously.
Christine: Obviously.
Em: And– Oy-yoy-yoy. Also it’s gonna be– When this comes out, it’s already December, so how– I assume you haven’t begun your Christmas present debacle. You’ve only been eBay-ing things for yourself now. Yes?
Christine: Uh, well, I’ve been mostly doing that, but no. I’ve bought actually so many holiday gifts.
Em: Oh!
Christine: I start about the week before Thanksgiving, and then on Black Friday, I go a little bit hog wild.
Em: Berserko?
Christine: Yeah. I basically sit– It’s my new tradition where, for the last couple years, we go to Thanksgiving in Connecticut. I hand off my child like she’s being, you know, escorted away for the summer.
Em: Nice. I would too.
Christine: Yeah, it’s great. And I give them– give her to the grandparents. And Blaise and his siblings are all just like playing Nintendo, watching sports. And like there’s just huge amounts of snacks. Like it’s like a sleepover dream when you were a kid, you know. And then I just sit in this one recliner with my laptop, and I, um, will, will like eat half a weed sometimes at night. And then I will just like Black Friday buy my, buy my family’s Christmas gifts all night while they watch football.
Em: Mm.
Christine: It’s really a– It’s like a– It’s a very cathartic and delightful cozy experience. I know it’s not very anti-capitalist of me, but, um, there are just a lot of things I’ve been needing to replace and, uh, gift. And, you know, that’s the time to do it.
Em: Well, I’m happy for you. I think I already bought– I bought some s– I already finished for some people but not most people, you know what I mean.
Christine: I bought you something. And it arrived, and it was so big that I went , “Oh no, oh no. Em’s never going to allow this. Oh no, Em’s never going to allow this.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: I thought it was a much smaller, more compact present, and because of your new house, I thought, “Oh, it’ll be small enough to just be–“ No– It’s pretty darn big. So I’m gonna gift that to you, uh, maybe–
Em: [laughs] You could send it to the storage unit, and then I will u–
Christine: Right? Exactly. I was gonna say – I’ll gift it to you in the car at the storage unit. We can just roll it out the window, you know. Um, but–
Em: [laughs] I’m sure it’ll be lovely once I’ve got the studio finished building.
Christine: I’m hoping– I, I will say I’m hoping, speakeasy-wise, spookeasy-wise, that this is something you will want in there, even though it’s kinda bigger than I thought.
Em: Mm!
Christine: So there’s not much room in there, in the spookeasy, I know, but I’m hoping– Maybe. And I don’t want you to feel like you have to, but I’m curious if this will end up being something you’d like to add to your spookeasy.
Em: I think you know me well enough. I think it’ll– It’s a perfect find.
Christine: I do too, but I, I wonder if the pro– if the cons– if, you know, of the size outweigh the pros of it, you know. But I–
Em: I think the spookeasy–
Christine: My feelings won’t be hurt ’cause I really didn’t think it was so big.
Em: I do think the spookeasy’s gonna become a seasonal, um, like a, like a rotating decor thing. So sometimes yes, sometimes no, maybe.
Christine: Ohh. Like a museum where they have them like o– underground, like preserved in the perfect temperature and stuff under UV glass.
Em: You get it.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: You get it. Yeah.
Christine: Okay, good.
Em: Because we have so many spooky things for the spookeasy. And the spookeasy’s the smallest room in the house.
Christine: Literally.
Em: And it’s already a small house. So, um, it’s–
Christine: Oh yeah. True. So– [laughs]
Em: Like it’s way too small to be an actual like bedroom. So I think it’s gonna become like a rotating big walk-in closet.
Christine: Okay, so maybe it’ll be, maybe it’ll be in the rotation. But I don’t, I don’t expect anything. I just wanted to warn you, but I am very excited for you to see it. ’Cause it’s really silly.
Em: Oh good.
Christine: And oh! Folks! Maybe this, this month we can do our, our holiday–
Em: Secret Krampus?
Christine: Do you want to do like a holiday stream? Oh, like our livestream of gifts?
Em: Oh.
Christine: Remember we talked about doing that potentially?
Em: Yeah, we can do that.
Christine: And then maybe by January, we can do the poll and see what people preferred between– I know people seem to prefer Yappy Hour, but maybe we can see if there’s a way to like continue the livestreams. But yeah, I think doing a holiday one would be fun if you’re down, Em.
Em: Yeah, we can just figure out what day it is, and uh–
Christine: Cool.
Em: –and then we’ll do it.
Christine: We’ll let Patreon know. Anyway, okay. Um, so sorry for all the talking, Em.
Em: It’s–
Christine: Uh, I think you have a story to tell me.
Em: You think? Hm.
Christine: I think– I thought.
Em: Um, no it is funny that we just spent literally like the last two weeks together, and we still can’t stop yapping. Um–
Christine: Wow. It’s, it’s unbelievable. Sometimes, I go into therapy, and I was there like four days ago, and I’m like, “Oh, this happened and this happened. Did I tell you about this and this? And I bought a property, and I got a full, half a sleeve size tattoo. And I decided to start sewing on a sewing machine, and I bought one last night.” And she’s like – [holds up her hands in a stopping gesture] She makes me take that, uh, the manic, um, quiz all the time.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: And I’m like, “You can’t fool me.”
Em: I also wonder if I have that, but, um, I also just attribute it to ADHD, just impulsiveness and hyperfixation, yeah.
Christine: I think that’s what it is. I think I’m just impulsive. Exactly.
Em: I think they blend very well. One of my best friends growing up is, uh, bipolar, and I think the two of us really just vibed so well together–
Christine: Ah, interesting.
Em: –because our– her, uh, manic episodes and my, uh, like obsessive hyperfixations at 3 in the morning–
Christine: Right.
Em: They really go hand in hand. It was–
Christine: Yes.
Em: It was a lovely, uh, a lovely friendship from the start, so. Um, anyway–
Christine: So you get, you get what I mea– what I’m saying, yeah. So.
Em: I get it. I, I– To this day, we–
Christine: I mean, everybody probably already knows this ’cause we–
Em: To this day, we go harder than anyone, and I love it. Every time we see each other, we–
Christine: We do, we do. It’s–
Em: It gives us permission to like just be a little, little–
Christine: Out of control.
Em: –out of control.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Anyway. Uh–
Christine: A– Just be a l– just be a little naughty, you know, every now and then.
Em: J– A little– You know, Christine, and that’s exactly what I’ve always said, so.
Christine: That is.
Em: Um, very excited when I, when I go home, maybe we’ll be a little naughty. Maybe we’ll paint a room. Last time, I was, uh, I was feeling a little naughty, my mom said, “I really wish the basement was this color,” and then in two days, it was that color. I just couldn’t stop myself.
Christine: Yes, it– I remember. And I was like, “You’re gonna die in those fumes. And I’m gonna go, ‘Well, Em, died the way they loved. Just doing a project that was not even a twinkle in their eye 24 hours ago.’”
Em: [laughs] It’s my favorite, especially when I go– It– We still haven’t done Thanksgiving yet, but when I go to my aunt’s every year, I always force them to let me do a home project for them.
Christine: Oh, the dream.
Em: And so, um–
Christine: As me, as me, as the, as the host. The dream. Come to my house.
Em: Oh, it’s a dream for me too. I fucking love staying up until 3 a.m. with a purpose.
Christine: I know.
Em: I love it. Um.
Christine: You and Lisa love to come in here and just do stuff. And e-everyone’s like, “Doesn’t that bother you?” No, come in and fix me and my house. Please.
Em: I always feel like I’m being offensive.
Christine: No, no.
Em: Like I’m like coming and saying, “Let me fix your problems,” implying that there's a problem.
Christine: I gotta be honest after, after Lisa found some of the most awkward shit cleaning out Blaise’s and my stuff, and I was like– [wincing] and she pretended she didn’t see it. It was super awkward. Super awkward.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: So awkward. So cringey. Honestly, after that, nothing phases me. Come on in. Fucking help me. Help me.
Em: No, I– Last– My favorite was one was I made my aunt let– I made my aunt make me, um, clean her garage which hadn’t been– They’re a navy family. They had moved to like six or seven locations since they, they had like gone through all their shit.
Christine: Oof.
Em: And it was– Their garage was just their storage unit, and I went through every single item. It was beautiful. We found such great relics. Anyway, I love a project. So I’m excited to have a reason to do it over the holidays.
Christine: Come over.
Em: Um, okay. Let me tell you a story. This is a quick one, so I don’t feel bad that we talked so much today. Um, this is– was– We were just in Charleston, and, uh–
Christine: Yes! Beautiful.
Em: –where I’m– Where I was p– I apparently looked a little tired, and, um– I’ll get over it eventually. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, well, I– Meanwhile, ironically, ironically, I slept ’til 5:45 or 5:35 p.m., uh, one day. So–
Em: You did!
Christine: –I guess–
Em: I was so proud of you.
Christine: I guess maybe you look tired in comparison to me. [laughs] Maybe it was like–
Em: Yeah, you look–
Christine: –“Oh, wow. Christine’s so a-asleep.” I don’t know.
Em: You de-aged, yeah.
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Em: But while I was there, I spent a couple extra days there, um, after everyone else. I saw Wicked twice. We’re not even gonna get into it, but I like– I had–
Christine: Today’s not the day. [laughs]
Em: It was a big– It was, it was a big, uh– I h– I did a lot of things while I was there. And one of the things I did was I went on a few ghost tours. There was one guy who was very into, uh, this location called the Sword Gates House, and I was like, “Alright, fine. I’ll do it.”
Christine: [laughs]
Em: So this is the Sword Gates House in Charleston.
Christine: Twist my arm, why don’t ya?
Em: Um, he talked about it as if he wish he, he had more time to talk about it.
Christine: [gasps] Oh, that’s a good sign.
Em: And so– That was a good sign.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But also I said it’s a short story. I couldn’t really find much, so now I’m regretting not forcing him to talk about it longer ’cause then maybe I would have gotten more intel.
Christine: Well, maybe he just– Maybe he’s like you, and he wished he had more, he had more to talk about. There just isn’t more to talk about. [laughs]
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Maybe he’s like, “I wish I had so many more stories.”
Em: “I have a lot of energy to talk and nothing to say.” Yeah.
Christine: And nothing to say.
Em: Well, um, so for those of you who are– who live in Charleston, uh, you will know Rainbow Row, which is like the row of like very colorful houses that–This is about a ten minute walk from that.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Um, and so [sighs] where do we start? 1803 – the first home was built here, uh, for a separate family. And from the beginning, this house has been U-shaped, which is very fun.
Christine: Huh.
Em: I love when it’s got a curvature.
Christine: Yeah. Parabola.
Em: Um, it was a three-story– Oh! Christine, don’t t–
Christine: [laughs]
Em: You know I like when you speak in other languages. Okay, uh.
Christine: So, so sorry. I should have warned you.
Em: U-shaped, a three-story house. Uh, later, wings were added onto the, the home for all sorts of rooms, ballrooms, etc. And eventually, the Talvande family moved in, and the guy’s name was either Andre or Andrew. We don’t really know. It’s lost to time now, but a lot of stories just say Andrew.
Christine: The last letter is lost to time. It just got– It just faded out. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] It just kinda got sneezed away..
Christine: [unintelligible] [laughs]
Em: Well, it’s because they were, uh, Haitian, I think.
Christine: Okay.
Em: Or no, hang on. I don’t want to mess that up. They were F– They were French to some degree. Anyway, so it might have been Andre or Andrew. But a lot of stories say Andrew. I don’t know if it’s just kinda been Americanized.
Christine: Right.
Em: Um, and his wife, which is either– Again, the sources were very confusing. I wish I had this man right in front of me to double check things.
Christine: Hm.
Em: At one point, there was a Rose Talvande, and at one point, there was an Ann Talvande. And it sounds like he was married to one of them. I don’t know. I’m gonna go off of–
Christine: I, I feel like this always happens with these old timey paperwork– Like it– They’re like related, but you’re like, “Are they linked by blood? By marriage? By–“
Em: Is it an aunt? Yeah.
Christine: Right, yeah. I feel like it’s always gets kind of convoluted, especially because everyone had so many similar names back then.
Em: Which again, maybe the stories are– I mean, yeah, I don’t know. And I know that the Talvande family eventually was then inherited, so maybe it was like either Rose or Ann was married to Andrew, and then the other one inherited it over time.
Christine: Ohh.
Em: But eventually, they just start saying “she” and “her” and pronoun-ing all over the place and don’t use an actual name. So I don’t know who they were talking about.
Christine: Ohh, I see.
Em: Um, but so the main storyline seems to be Andrew and Ann were married.
Christine: Okay, okay.
Em: That seems to be the common thread. I’m gonna go off majority rules at this point. Um, for most of the history, this building has been a private residence, but today’s story specifically is the 1820s to the 1840s.
Christine: Okay.
Em: So 1820s, the Talvandes began to run a boarding school here for teenage daughters of the upper class. So imagine Gossip Girl but you live there.
Christine: Teena– Oh. Lord have mercy.
Em: The upper crust’s finest Charleston Southern daughters.
Christine: But think about what a good TV show that would make.
Em: Delicious.
Christine: Like kind of like Call the Midwife, but, but like the preppy boarding school of the 1820– Aw! I would love that.
Em: Like they don’t deserve any more privilege, but also I do want them filmed as a reality show. You know?
Christine: Well, I mean, most reality shows, uh, do end up being privileged people on TV for us to, to gawk at. So yeah, that is kinda the point.
Em: I know, but I’m saying I d– I don’t, I don’t wanna wish any more privilege and entitlement on these folks, but I–
Christine: Oh, I–
Em: But for entertainment? I–
Christine: Oh yeah. I don’t think it would be necessarily, um, a privilege for them for this experience. I think we’d be all privileged to watch the dr– the nonsense unfold. I mean, imagine to get when–
Em: Well–
Christine: Imagine when Gertrude insults Maude’s knitting needles.
Em: When one of them decides to show their ankles, are you fucking kidding me? That’s season finale shit.
Christine: That– I was gonna say. That can’t happen ’til the way, way end. Yeah.
Em: Well, so M. Talvande’s Ladies School– “M” for, I’m assuming, “Madame.”
Christine: Oh my god. What if it was just “Em” – E-M?
Em: That’d be beautiful.
Christine: “Em’s Lady School.” What’s it called?[laughs]
Em: That’s what I would call my reality show: “Em’s Lady School.”
Christine: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, you would.
Em: Um, M. Talvande’s Ladies School. And it was considered one of the best finishing schools in the South. Uh, it stressed discipline and social training because, of course, in the 1820s when you’re a rich white girl, you’re gonna just– All you’re there for is to find an eligible bachelor and get married and have kids. But marry rich – or else we don’t love you.
Christine: Obviously.
Em: Um, and also finishing schools– You did cotillion, yeah?
Christine: I don’t wanna talk about it. [laughs]
Em: Me either. Okay, so the school taught mainly arts, like music and dance, because that’s what was the most becoming of women, I assume. But later, the school also began to incorporate learning science and math in there–
Christine: Whoa.
Em: –which a lot of the girls at the time weren’t learning. But it was to give them– to make them even higher on the upper echelons of like, “Oh, well they’re–“
Christine: Oh, I see.
Em: “They’re well-read compared to the others.”
Christine: “They’re worldly.” Yes, okay.
Em: “Worldly.” Yes, they’re very worldly. They know two plus two.
Christine: I see. That’s more than I know.
Em: And the school, the school also hosted social events for other young adults to come in, so they could all mingle–
Christine: Like a cotillion.
Em: It was basically, basically– Pretty much. And it was like a, uh– basically “bring in the eligible suitors to look at our finest girls–“
Christine: Ooh.
Em: “And are any of them interested? And could something come from this?” So it was a b– it was a big fancy 1820s– it– Gossip Girl fest. That’s all I can really say.
Christine: Did you watch Bridgerton?
Em: No, but I literally almost said the words Bridgerton.
Christine: Okay. It’s sort of like when they all like line up and show the– display like, debut themselves.
Em: The girls.
Christine: Yeah, like a debutante ball. Yeah.
Em: See, that for m– I would have been like, “Oh, like Playboy, where they just line up the girls and–“
Christine: See, see– Yeah, Em’s just giving–
Em: It’s just a grosser version.
Christine: Em’s just giving so much privilege to all these reality stars. [laughs]
Em: Just saying. Uh, I was an eight-year-old with an HBO subscription at one point, and I’ve stumbled onto some weird shit, I’ll tell you that.
Christine: [laughs] I don’t think anybody’s judging you for your taste in reality [audio cuts off]. I promise.
Em: No, no, no. It wasn’t a reality show I stumbled upon. Um, so–
Christine: Ohh.
Em: So Madame Talvande– I, I, I h– I, I– It’s French, so I’m sure it’s like Talv– Talva– Something I can’t pronounce.
Christine: Talvande [pronounced with French accent “tal-vaux”]
Em: Maybe. Talvande [pronounced with French accent “tal-vaughn-duh”]
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Uh, but I’m– I’ve been saying Madame– [in French accent] Madame Talvande. She was known to be a strict headmistress of this place, which I guess you have to be if your whole thing is like teaching discipline.
Christine: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Em: And s– If you’re teaching people to be snooty, you probably have to be snooty yourself.
Christine: For sure.
Em: Some said that she was so strict she was actually tyrannical, which that’s also just like how a teenager would talk. The like, “Oh my god. She’s literally a dictator.”
Christine: Okay, no. No, but like scary ladies like that– Think about Mrs. Trunchbull. Like they’re real. Like the nuns at Catholic school? Like they will– and they would like– I mean, in the 1820s? Like you know she was like beating them and stuff. Like there was not–
Em: Oh, shit. You’re right.
Christine: She was probably scary.
Em: Okay, I did not mean to victim blame there. You’re right.
Christine: No, no. I don’t think you were at all.
Em: [laughs] You’re right.
Christine: No, I don’t think you were at all, but I, I, I do know what you mean. I feel like nowadays we’d be like, “Oh my god. She’s such a witch like al– doing all this.” And it’s like, well, at least she’s not fucking smacking you with a ruler.
Em: I guess that’s true. I just know how dramatic I was as a teenager where I’d be like, “Oh my god. He’s basically a prison warden.”
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, you’re right.
Em: Like I would have said something f– like fucked up.
Christine: I mean, tyrannical is an intense word. But yes, I– Just a thought.
Em: But you could be on to something as well, yeah. So who’s to say? We’re not there. Um–
Christine: Thank god.
Em: –but she was known to be very strict, and rarely, would the girls act out. So she must have been on to something– or maybe you were– you’re on to something. And in 1828 (this is a few years into the school), there was one 15-year-old girl who was not interested in Madame Talvande’s bullshit.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: And her name was Maria Whaley. And before moving into the boarding house, she was homeschooled, but then she fell in love with a boy.
Christine: No.
Em: And not just a boy, but a non-rich boy.
Christine: [sighs] Fuck.
Em: And not only a, a– probably not even a poor boy, just a non-upper class boy, but he was from [in New York accent] New York.
Christine: Uh-oh.
Em: And so he was an outsider.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: He didn’t understand their world, you see.
Christine: No Southern gentleman.
Em: No Southern gentleman, no. He’s a newsie as far as I’m concerned.
Christine: [laughs] Yeah, yeah. He has a leather jacket or something.
Em: [laughs] In my mind, old New Yorkers and English boys are the same to me where it’s like, [in a high-pitched, slight English accent] “Oi, mister!”
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Em: I can’t tell if that’s old New York or English.
Christine: Yeah, yeah. “Cabbie! Cabbie!” Like wait, who are you?
Em: [laughs] So anyway, she found herself an “Oi, mister!”.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: And her father, obviously, was not down with this. Um–
Christine: Oof.
Em: And he tried everything to get him away from her. This is a weird line. Apparently, he also– ’Cause I was looking this up, and I was like, “I can’t tell if he’s talking about himself–“ I’m just gonna read the sentence and then tell me what you think it means.
Christine: Okay. Okay.
Em: Because I had to do some digging on this one. He desperately wanted to get, uh, George– The boy’s name is George, the, the newsie.
Christine: Mm.
Em: He wanted to get George away from his daughter, and by– and was– even went so far as to telling all of his friends to shun him and turn him away if George needed a place to stay.
Christine: ‘Kay.
Em: What did that sound like to you?
Christine: Like he’s saying, uh–
Em: Like whose friends?
Christine: George’s.
Em: George’s friends?
Christine: George’s friends, yeah.
Em: That’s what I fucking thought too. That makes sense. Like go, like go tell his friends to not let him in the house.
Christine: Oh, tell his own friends?
Em: Yeah, that’s like, like that’s like–
Christine: That’s weird.
Em: Like why would they– I don’t understand.
Christine: What are you talking about? Is it like they also have daughters, and he’s like, “Keep your daughters away from this boy. He’s out for one of our daughters”?
Em: Oh, maybe.
Christine: You know?
Em: Or maybe like because it was a small town, maybe everyone knew everyone, and so he was just telling all the adults who had houses like, “Don’t let this guy in.” I don’t know.
Christine: Yeah, it’s kinda weird. What was it? To turn him– what was it? To turn him away or something?
Em: To like– just to– Yeah, just to keep him away from the area, the dad went to the dad’s friends–
Christine: Oh, maybe he just tried to like chase him out of town and was like, “If you see this guy, you tell him to get lost. Tell him to scram.”
Em: That’s what I– Maybe that’s what it was supposed to be, but the line was like, “Don’t let him in your house.” And wouldn’t his friends be like, “I’m not gonna let a strange guy I don’t know in the fucking house. Don’t worry.”
Christine: I mean, maybe they would ’cause maybe it’s like, “Oh–“
Em: Southern gentleman.
Christine: Yeah, right.
Em: [laughs] Well, one thing I was thinking is maybe because he was from New York, maybe it was common then to like just have anybody take on an outsider like just to like give them a place to stay or like–
Christine: Mm. Right.
Em: I don’t know. I have no idea what it was about, but he would go to his own friends and say, “If you see this guy, don’t let him in your house.” So that’s the story there.
Christine: [laughs] “Don’t let him in your house.” You’re right. It’s a very weird way to say like, “Tell him to scram.” Like–
Em: Yeah, it– I don’t–
Christine: “Don’t let him in your house” is weird.
Em: Maybe he was already staying there when they were wondering if they liked him and then when he decided he didn’t like him–
Christine: Yeah, maybe there’s context we’re missing. Like maybe the guy was like local– friendly with the locals and was like stopping by–
Em: Yeah.
Christine: And it– We– He– Maybe he was the milkman. He’s like– “Don’t let him on your property.” [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Yeah, it had to be something like that ’cause otherwise, it makes no sense. But I guess all of the dad’s friends listened, and they’re like, “Oaky, We’re not gonna let him in.” But then it sounds like maybe that was happening because the next line is: after this happened, George started pitching a tent and camping outside of the house to prove his like devotion to Maria and that he desperately wanted to be with her.
Christine: Oh god.
Em: So maybe he was staying at other people’s houses at some point if he’s now camping out.
Christine: Yeah, maybe he was just like bopping around, like couch surfing.
Em: Yeah, so–
Christine: Maybe he was a chaise longue surfing.
Em: Stop it. A di– Oh, you know I love a day bed lounge.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Li– if I could just surf the day beds, we’d be in business.
Christine: A fainting couch. A fainting couch or two.
Em: [in delight] Ahh!
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Em: George and Maria – they’re in love. The dad’s not into it. The dad told the whole town, “Don’t let him in your house. We’re trying to kick him out.” George ends up camping out in their yard just to be like, “Okay, you kicked– You told everyone I couldn’t stay at their places, but I’m still here–”
Christine: “I found a loophole.”
Em: “–pining over your girl, pining over your daughter.”
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, and so the dad was like, “I can’t get this guy away from you. Like what do we do about this?” Meanwhile, I’m sure Maria is just ooing and ahhing, and she’s just like, “Oh my god, the per– the perseverance and the persistence is just so hot.”
Christine: She’s– Yeah, she’s just past her, uh, her curtains like a little bit slowly, just hoping he sees her silhouette.
Em: Oh yeah, she’s giving him a show.
Christine: Yeah. [laughs]
Em: Giving him a show. And the dad is like, “I cannot keep these two away from each other. I don’t know what to do.” So because she was originally homeschooled and she was always at the house, so now this guy was always in his yard–
Christine: [laughs] Oh no.
Em: –he was like, “I don’t know what to do. I have to get her out of here if I can’t get him out of here.”
Christine: I see.
Em: And so then she sent– She got sent to Madame Talvande’s–
Christine: Yeah, boarding school.
Em: –Ladies School.
Christine: Yes, okay.
Em: And, um, so while she was there, she was taking her classes. She also was at all those bachelor/bachelorette social functions, but she never gave up on her love for George, of course.
Christine: Aww.
Em: So, uh, eventually– I, I’m assuming George was like left in the dark about where she went, and he was like, “Where’d she go?”
Christine: I would think so. He probably also told all his friends, “Remember when I said, ‘Don’t let him on– in the house?’Also don’t tell them– don’t tell him–“
Em: Where she went, yeah.
Christine: “The name of that Fren– dumb French boarding school please.”
Em: Well, apparently, he was easy to read because, uh, very quickly, George figured it out–
Christine: Oh. [laughs]
Em: –and was like, “I bet her sent her away to that really fucking bougie school down the street.”
Christine: Yeah, right.
Em: And– ’Cause the– All the sources say he found her, which like now it’s starting to sound like he absolutely is stalking her, right? Like– [laughs]
Christine: This is actually getting alarming. Like I, I guess I– So how old is he? ’Cause she’s 16. Is–
Em: Yeah, I don’t know his age which is also troubling.
Christine: Oh, okay. That makes it a little muddy. Yeah. [laughs]
Em: Um, because I like to think they’re both like just 15-year-olds in love.
Christine: Just high school like love birds, yeah.
Em: I can tell you when I was 15, I was– [sighs] Who was I in love with at 15? Her name was either Ally or Sydney. It was not of the two.
Christine: Who wasn’t I in love with at 15? [laughs]
Em: No, it– Shout out to Ally. Shout out to Sydney. Um, but I was in love with one of them at the time, and if you told me I couldn’t be near them, I would have camped out. I would have been like, “Are you kidding me?” Like it would have been the gayest thing the world had ever seen.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah.
Em: So, to a point, I understand where George is coming from.
Christine: Oh, of course. Those hormones are– Yeah, bad. Bad news.
Em: But, uh, yeah. Now, I, I don’t know where the line is ’cause I don’t have enough context, but eventually he figures out where she is. He goes and finds her. She apparently seems to be into it, so I’m all for it currently.
Christine: Yeah, I mean she was waiting for him.
Em: And he finds her and sends her a letter and says,” On March 3rd, get ready–“
Christine: [gasps]
Em: “–sneak out, and we’re getting married.”
Christine: [gasps] Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh!
Em: And so– I know. It’s happening! So–
Christine: [quiet scream in excitement]
Em: –she sneaks out, and I guess he’d already arranged transportation, which like love that he thought about the logistics for that.
Christine: He arranged transport– [laughs] What does that mean? Like he got a horse out front?
Em: [laughs] He got a friend to bring a horse, yeah.
Christine: Oh, I see. [laughs]
Em: So kind of bare minimum but at least he– The effort was there.
Christine: I mean, it’s some– No, it’s something.
Em: Um, he had a friend, uh, bring a horse and carriage–
Christine: Aww.
Em: –wait for her to sneak out, and they brought her to the church. They successfully eloped, but apparently, they didn’t think it all the way through and like she should have just brought all of her shit that day and like just brought it all to the church.
Christine: Wait, so now it’s all at the school?
Em: It’s all at the school, so she has to go back to the school.
Christine: Oh, girl. Come on, you gotta think ahead a little bit. I know you’re like 16. There’s no way get to [unintelligible].
Em: I would have never thought that far ahead. There’s no way.
Christine: Your frontal lobe is just screwed right now.
Em: Literally at 15, I was going to house parties, and the furthest ahead I was thinking was, “I’m gonna sleep in the jeans I’m wearing–
Christine: [laughs]
Em: “–and I have a Nokia so I don’t need a phone charger. And–“
Christine: [to rhythm of “Baby Got Back”] ♪ Sleep in the jeans she’s wearing / I’m hooked and I can’t stop– ♪♪ Sorry.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: That’s just my intrusive thought today.
Em: They wrote that about me. Isn’t that weird?
Christine: Yeah, that is weird that they misgendered you. It’s super fucked up.
Em: Well, they didn’t know then, so–
Christine: Oh, right. You didn’t know then.
Em: I didn’t know then either. Yeah.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Uh, so. Anyway, she did– Maybe she was wearing the jeans– she slept in them. She didn't think twice about anything else, left everything else back at the house. And after they got married, I’m sure he was like, “Where’s your shit?” And she was like, “Ah! It’s at school.” And so–
Christine: [laughs] Oopsie.
Em: And so he went, [gritting their teeth] “Now you have to go back there.” So she snuck back into the school. There’s a– One source had this whole like dramatic storyline of like she slipped in mud, and one of the teachers found her slipped in mud.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And then they were like, “Get back inside, you crazy girl,” not knowing that she had just gotten married. So I don’t know how true that is or if that was just like flowery, but, um– So she gets back inside. The next morning, George comes to the school because now that he’s married to her, and thus she’s his property–
Christine: Yeah.
Em: –um, he can just–
Christine: He’s come to collect her. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Yeah. He could just sign her out. And so he knocked on the door. Of course, that strict, tyrannical Madame opens the door–
Christine: Ooh.
Em: –and he goes, uh, “I’m here to collect Mrs. Morris.”
Christine: [gasps]
Em: Ooh!
Christine: Shut the f– I mean, imagine the cliffhanger, like when the door opens– Oh!
Em: Fade to black, bitch. Absolutely.
Christine: Oh! Oh man, this needs to be real.
Em: So when the girls, uh, start giggling behind Madame, she realizes, “Holy shit. Maybe there is a Mrs. Morris here.” Because originally she was like, “There’s no Mrs. Morris. Get the fuck out of here.”
Christine: Yeah. “These are single eligible bachelorettes.”
Em: Yes. “I’m the only married one here. Shoo now! F-fetch, puppy! Go!”
Christine: “Shoo shoo!” Yes. “Scram!”
Em: And, uh– [laughs] And so–
Christine: “Don’t go to anybody of my friends’ houses ’cause they won’t let you in.”
Em: [laughs] It was like the best insult they had at the time.
Christine: [laughs] It’s pretty rude in, in the South, I imagine.
Em: Um, so anyway, she was like, “There’s no Mrs. Morris.” Then all the girls behind her are giggling, and she’s like, “What do these fucking children know that I don’t?”
Christine: Shit.
Em: So she goes, “BRB,” probably slams the door in his face, and then goes, “All the girls outside now. Line up in a row.”
Christine: No!
Em: Like in Playboy. You see. Um–
Christine: I get it. [laughs]
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Nope. [laughs]
Em: And so, uh, she has them all line out on the lawn. She brings George in and introduces him to the entire lineup of girls and says, “He is here for his wife. Is there a Mrs. Morris present among us?”
Christine: [gasps] Oh my god. Imagine being that girl, and you’re like, “All the girls are about to scream.”
Em: [laughs] You know someone w– They were all doing the– They were all doing the Christine claw [grabs their own wrist tightly]. They were like, “Oh my gosh!”
Christine: “Yes! Yes! Any minute now!”
Em: They were like, “We’re gonna talk about this later.” Um–
Christine: “She’s gonna flip a gasket–“
Em: [laughs]
Christine: “–might even pee her panty hose.” Oh my god.
Em: “She might say a slur like, like ‘being T-O-ed.’ Frickn’ T-O-ed.”
Christine: Oh no, she better not. No, she better not. She might say, “la merde.”
[laughs]
Em: She goes– [laughs]
Christine: Is that even right? I think it’s just “merde.”
Em: I was gonna say like “zut alors.” Yeah.
Christine: Oh, “zut alors.” Yeah, that’s good too. Uh–
Em: [sighs] “Ooh-la-la.” Yeah.
Christine: It’s a– “Sacre bleu.” [laughs]
Em: “Sacre bleu.” So she, she says, “Is there a Mrs. Morris here that would like to out herself immediately to the class?” And apparently, Maria steps out. I don’t know if she just said, “I am. I’m Mrs. Morris,” but one of the sources, which I love–
Christine: I want the most flowery one, yeah.
Em: Okay. Like I’m gonna s– In, in the sassiest, bitchiest way ever–
Christine: Yeah.
Em: –apparently, she curtsied.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: Oh! I love that.
Christine: Now, that is a powerful woman. Child. [laughs]
Em: She said, “And what? And what now?”
Christine: “And what?”
Em: “’Tis me, bitch.” That’s what she said.
Christine: Yeah. “And you better call me Mrs.”
Em: [laughs] Yeah. And, uh, so apparently, as you say–
Christine: I wish she had a glass so she could go [mimes tapping on a glass] “clink clink clink,” you know.
Em: “I’m the bride.”
Christine: “I’m the bride.”
Em: Apparently, Madame did flip a gasket.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: And she screamed at the staff for like letting a silly little girl trick them all and sneak out, which like girl, you’re part of that. Like why are you yelling at them?
Christine: Yeah.
Em: You also got tricked.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, sometime during this– Again, I don’t– Based on the source, either George grabbed her hand when Madame wasn’t looking and– like grabbed Maria’s hand, and they just ran off together. They ran off the lawn and ran off the property and were never seen again. Or George legally owns her so probably was just like, “Anyway, you have your moment. I’m gonna leave with my wife.”
Christine: Right, and she’s like, “I’ve had enough excitement here for one day. Girls, back to your dormitories, and you, get out of my sight.”
Em: You know she did it like this. She went, she went [claps twice] “Now, leave!” [claps twice] “At–“
Christine: “Scatter! Scatter!”
Em: “At haste, at once!” [claps twice]
Christine: Yes. “With haste please, children.”
Em: Uh, so apparently, Madame was worried that this would ruin her and the school’s reputation, because literally all she does all day is work with teenage girls. You know they’re writing fucking long letters to Mom and Dad now, going, “Guess what the gossip is?”
Christine: Oh. Ooh! Imagine– And then you know that the dad who specifically sent her here to avoid this specific young man–
Em: This is how he finds out? Oh my god.
Christine: Ooh, he’s gonna be so pissed.
Em: I, I mean truly, the one group of people you don’t want to catch you at your most embarrassing moment is a horde of teenage girls that you had lined up around you. Are you kidding me?
Christine: And their parents. Oh! It’s just extra–
Em: And their parents who give you money. Ooh.
Christine: Yeah, yeah. This is bad news. This is bad news–
Em: Troubling times at Madame Talvande’s Ladies School.
Christine: –for Mrs. Higby. Yeah.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Call her Mrs. Higby.
Em: So, uh, somehow the word gets out. I can’t imagine how.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: And she’s– is panicked that it’s gonna ruin her, so she gets even more strict. She literally has– I guess she uses up all of the mommy and daddy’s monies, and she pays for a high, high, high, super tall wall built around the entire property–
Christine: Oh good. [laughs]
Em: –and allegedly even topped all of the walls with shards of broken glass so nobody could climb over it.
Christine: Excuse me. It– I– Let me guess. Did she make like– Who had to– The poor staff who’s already getting screamed at for like not catching this girl escaping–
Em: I know.
Christine: –and now they’re like having to glue glass to the top of this fucking wall. This is nuts.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: This is nuts.
Em: I, I imagine they were just breaking bottles up there and just letting the shards fall.
Christine: Yeah, they’re like, “I–“ Actually, yeah.
Em: Which means now the perimeter of the wall also isn’t safe if you’re– You gotta always have your shoes on. Don’t, don’t get near the edge of the wall. There could be some glass.
Christine: No. Em, if you’re a Higby School of Ladies student, you know– pupil, sorry, you know better than to wear sh– no shoes outside. Are you kidding me?
Em: To show your toes? Eugh.
Christine: Please, let’s not be real.
Em: So fun fact: uh, the house is known as the Sword Gates House because of these wrought iron gates at the, at the entryway, and they have these, um–
[tech difficulty song - singing: ♪ Please stand by, we have to step away and– ♪♪]
Em: Uh.
Christine: Sorry, we had a minor emergency, uh, that I was– of– uh– had to escape for. We’re back. Poor Jack has to hear all of our– the inner– ins and outs of the, the behind the scenes while we record. Um, Eva is not here today, so, uh, I needed a minute. I went and got my little nice cube, uh, the thing that– I– Oh, btw, I didn’t just buy myself one, and after Em’s trauma, I bought both of us one, to be clear. [laughs]
Em: [laughs]
Christine: I didn’t just order myself one. But, uh–
Em: Not only did– Christine– Okay, so, uh last– If you are listening backwards for some reason, uh, I’m obsessed with the NeeDoh Nice Cube. And 24 hours– After finally finding one because they were sold out all over my area– Uh, 24 hours after owning one, I broke it by accident. And then the next time I saw Christine, she surprised with a new one, and it wasn’t even the Nice Cube. It was the Nice Berg, and it was twice as big so twice the fun. Um.
Christine: [laughs] Yeah, Em looked it like, “What the hell?” [audio cuts off]
Em: I never even knew that one existed.
Christine: I didn’t know this was– I didn’t know this was any different. But yeah, I, I felt it in the store and was like, “I must also own that.” So, well, the reason I bring it up is that halfway through that last bit, I realized I kept like bringing it into the frame a little bit, if you’re watching on YouTube. So, um, I wanted to make it clear that I’m– that’s what I’m– that’s what’s happening. Um–
Em: I, I would like you momentarily– if you wanted to to–
Christine: You know I won’t do that on camera ’cause you already did–
Em: –publicly eat your words.
Christine: You, you already did–. [sighs]
Em: I’d like you to–
Christine: Oh! I– Oh, just eat my words? That’s fine, as long as I’m not eating anything else. I did immediately upon purchasing this and pulling up at a red light, which may have been the most, um, indiscrete–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Non-discrete? I don’t know the right word– place to do this. I, uh, I bit– I bit my– I bit my cube ’cause Em said, you know, those Dr., Dr. Scholl’s gels that Em, Em wants– Em likes to bite. Em said this is exactly it. This is what’ll do it for you. And I said, “Well, immediately I gotta try it.”
Em: And?
Christine: Really delightful experience. Yeah.
Em: I’m telling you: 10 out of 10.
Christine: Really, really top-notch. I will say this one now, um, is covered– Leona likes to throw it ’cause it lands really hard and makes a lot of noise, so it is not clean right now. So I will not be biting it, um, and Blaise is gonna have a heart attack when he hears this, but–
Em: It’s– I ca– I have yet to find a better experience for– What did I call it last time? The oral–
Christine: You called it– [sighs] What–
Em: Molar fixation?
Christine: Oh yeah. The oral moral fixation which made me laugh.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: ’Cause I was like, “Oh, now we’re bringing morality into this. Great. Okay.”
Em: Um–
Christine: ’Cause, uh, it is evil, for sure. There’s no good, uh, being done, but–
Em: But can confirm – best bite of my life.
Christine: It’s a, it’s a very, um– a satisfying feeling.
Em: Yeah.
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Em: Where were we? Uh.
Christine: I don’t know. I don’t know. I think, um– I think somebody was telling a story, but I can’t remember who or why or what, what about.
Em: Well, so she was worried that all the girls were gonna gossip, and then they did.
Christine: Mm.
Em: And so she was like, “Well, now my reputation’s ruined.” So she built a wall, covered it with glass.
Christine: [laughs] Right.
Em: Oh– And then– And we actually were at a good stopping point, so that, that worked out. So, fun fact: the house is called the Sword Gates House because there’s this wrought iron gate upfront that has like a sword decoration on it or like looks like a sword in wrought iron. Um, and some think that this was also installed by Madame Talvande during this time while she was trying to like build this huge wall.
Christine: She’s, she’s got like glass and swords at her disposal? I mean, I know she’s probably–
Em: [laughs] Wrought iron, pre-Civil War swords.
Christine: Right? Like I’m assuming that this is probably like some weird ass construction company that is able to do things like this, but I’m just picturing this woman being like, “Now, let’s add glass shards.” I mean, she sounds like Mrs. Trunchbull. Like where is she getting all this shit?
Em: She actually does really sound tyrannical.
Christine: Yeah!
Em: So I eat my words.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um–
Christine: Wow, wow, wow.
Em: Well, so some think that she’s responsible for this wrought iron gate put up because she was already putting up the wall, um, but others say that this was installed a few years after the school closed, which is around 1850, so–
Christine: Oh. Would it have still been– had that name? In–
Em: Yes.
Christine: Oh, I see. Okay.
Em: It’s the– The gate– The story behind the gate having like the swords on it and now it’s called Sword Gates House is definitely true, but how the, the gate was installed or why it was installed and by who is, er–
Christine: Got it. Okay, okay.
Em: Um, so some say it was her because I think it’s just easy to shove that into the same story, but other people say that it was put in later by a new owner. And fun fact: these gates were originally intended for a police station–
Christine: Ohh.
Em: –but they either decided not to use them at the police station, or they had like a second set, then they decided to use them on this house. Um–
Christine: [laughs] They had an extra set of police gates with swords on them. I love this.
Em: I think they– Well, I think like it was like the blacksmith messed one up or something. Like I, I think there was something where they were like, “Alright. What do we do?”
Christine: Oh my god. That’s– But that’s the best story like we have– The school– When– Remember when you said like, “Oh, he’s a prison guard.” It’s like, no, you literally are in the gate. Like glass-topped walls–
Em: You’re actually now walled in, gated.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Yeah. It actually– Maybe she was a prison warden.
Christine: And the, the gates actually match the police station, uh, except he fucked up one of the swords, and it’s a little bit wonky so the police didn’t want it.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Um, what a tale. This is really exciting.
Em: Well, the other fun fact is that this was around 1850, and so they were made with pre-Civil War iron, which is so rare to find because most of the iron around the area was melted into weapons for the war.
Christine: [gasps] Really? I didn’t know that.
Em: It’s, um, quite a relic that, uh–
Christine: Ohh.
Em: –that there’s pre-Civil War iron just sitting somewhere and nobody thought to melt it down.
Christine: I mean, that, that fucking, uh, metal – what do you call it? Blacksmith–
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: –is lucky that, that Mrs. Higbybottom wanted to buy it because–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: –like the police station said no. Now he fucked it up and has to make a whole new one out of this fancy pre-Civil War iron. Like man, he’s lucky she wanted that kind of knockoff wonky gate.
Em: I know. The, the wonky gate, yeah. That’s why they should call it the Wonky Gates House.
Christine: I think it’s a– It’s Wonky Gate is the scandal also.
Em: [laughs] Well, today, uh, as for– ’Cause this was on a ghost tour, so the main ghost here obviously is Madame Talvande. They say that she still roams the building, making sure that nobody else is acting out under her watch because she’s still fucking paranoid after like almost 200 years.
Christine: Well, do you know what it reminds me of? That one place that we may or may not cover in a live show, uh–
Em: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Christine: –who still is around, and it’s like, “Fucking go away. Like what do you want?”
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Like, “You’re not the boss anymore,” you know? It’s just so weird how some of them need to like keep that.
Em: It’s like are you just– Are you that married to the property?
Christine: Yeah. Or do you just–
Em: Or like, like could you leave if you wanted to? Or do you care too fucking much?
Christine: Yeah, is it like you’re just too invested in like making other people miserable? [laughs] Like I don’t know.
Em: Yeah. It’s like, “This is all you had.” Um–
Christine: Yeah, you just want that yardstick to smack people’s knuckles with, you know.
Em: ’Cause like hate to break it to you, but that unfinished business is finished actually. Um–
Christine: Yeah, right. It’s been finished a long time ago.
Em: So people see her apparition doing bed checks, like walking down the halls and going into each room.
Christine: Ugh, god. She’s annoying.
Em: Apparently, she, uh, walks through the halls, vanishes moments later. People have seen doorknobs turning on their own, and then when the door opens, no one’s there, which means people are also seeing the doors opening and closing.
Christine: I, I just had a thought. I’m so sorry. I just had a thought about, um, the bed check thing. You know sometimes when you’re asleep or like people tell stories of being asleep, and then like–
Em: [gasps]
Christine: –they wake up, and there’s like a woman or someone in the doorway?
Em: Eugh!
Christine: What if it’s like a parent checking on their kid like residually?
Em: I hope so, yeah. I would–
Christine: Do you know what I mean?
Em: I prefer that.
Christine: Like I feel like we’re always like, “Oh, there’s this ominous like just figure standing there, a woman standing over me while I slept.” And it’s like what if they’re just doing the bed check on their kid back then like to just check if they’re asleep, you know what I mean?
Em: That’s when you move the bed and see if they go to the same location.
Christine: Ohh, good point.
Em: Like is it a blueprint theory situation?
Christine: Good point.
Em: Or are they following you wherever they want?
Christine: Excellent point. Excellent point. Yeah.
Em: Yuck. Um.
Christine: Anyway, just a thought. ’Cause I’m like sometimes people talk about Victorian ladies appearing at their bedside, and I– or at the foot of the bed, I’m like, “Why?” Maybe that’s why.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Maybe they’re like just checking.
Em: That makes sense.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, but then– And then that feels lovely until you realize it’s someone like her who’s doing the bed check, and it’s like, “Oh, it’s still ominous.”
Christine: That– Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just don’t move into an old boarding school ’cause probably it’s not gonna be as nice of a bed check ghost as like–
Em: No, instead move into an old boarding house. Right, Christine? [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wait. Good point. [laughs] Hm. Let me rethink that. I’ll get back to you.
Em: S– So people, again, see her apparition. They see swirling mists on the property. People hear things moving on their own. They hear, uh, heavy sighs, heavy footsteps, and they have seen her standing on the balcony gazing out at the garden where she’s probably watching to make sure no one’s sneaking out at night.
Christine: [laughs] Yeah, she’s watching her glass shimmer behind the rose bushes.
Em: [laughs] Yeah.
Christine: Just the pointed glass above the fucking wall perimeter.
Em: Which imagine like being a kid just living there and hanging out in the yard at night. Like and all of a sudden, you just see someone staring at you? And I feel like–
Christine: Yeah, she was probably always watching and wanted you to feel like she was always watching, you know. She’s probably one of those.
Em: I imagine as you get older the feeling kinda goes away, but when you’re younger, like it’s such an– a dark presence–
Christine: Oof. [sighs]
Em: – because they feel like they just have to keep tabs on you. You know?
Christine: Yeah. And you know that is what they’re doing. Like they’re only looking at you with critical eye like [unintelligible].
Em: Imagine, imagine like being a ghost who is that prim and proper from that time period, and now there’s like a teenager girl living there who like wears like shorts.
Christine: Literally shorts.
Em: Or like sneaks her boyfriend in, and they’re like hooking up.
Christine: Oh!
Em: And like you just are watching the, the exact opposite of what you trained teenage girls to be like.
Christine: That’s, that’s what I’m saying is like you know she would get her little yardstick out and try to smack them, you know, with her–
Em: Oh yeah.
Christine: But, but then I’m like, “Girl, give it a rest. Like go h– be at peace. You’re stressed out just l– You’re, you’re just stressed out.”
Em: “You’re causing the problems.”
Christine: “You’re causing the problem.
Em: “You’re your own problem.” Yeah.
Christine: “You’re your own problem.”
Em: Well some people have seen a second ghost here who’s a man walking through the dining room, and they don’t know if that’s maybe her father or George. It–
Christine: [whispers] George!
Em: So still pissing her off.
Christine: Especially ’cause he got [unintelligible].
Em: Still T-ing her right O.
Christine: T– [laughs] He’s, he’s really T-ing her O.
[laughs]
Christine: Um, yeah, especially ’cause he got like led in, you know.
Em: Yeah, yeah. Um, that’s a good point. So in 17– Nope. In 1970, it was added to the National Register of Historic Places. From the ‘50s to the ‘90s, it was a bread and beck– brea– No. Oh my god, I can never do it.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: Bed and breakfast called The Sword Gate Inn, and it was on one of the wings of the house.
Christine: We come up with the best business ideas on this show, by the way. I mean–
Em: I, I love bread and “beckfast.”
Christine: Yeah.
Em: I don’t know what “beckfast” is, but I love the bread part.
Christine: Yeah, we don’t care about the second part, but the bread–
Em: Bread and bread. Let’s call it that.
Christine: Bread is a good start.
Em: Um, bed and bread.
Christine: Bread and breakfast.
Em: When I’m getting breakfast, I really do also just want types of bread, so bed and bread is totally fine.
Christine: Oh, I can’t eat breakfast without any bread. That’s not gonna happen.
Em: Um–
Christine: Did you hear that? It’s not gonna happen. Okay?
Em: [laughs] And it’s not because I wake up at 11, okay?
Christine: No. [laughs]
Em: It’s not bec–
Christine: It has nothing to do with it.
Em: So the building today is 17,000 square feet– over 17,000 square feet. 9 bedrooms, 14 bathrooms, 8 fireplaces, and quote: “a drawing room, a study, a ballroom, a library, 2 dining rooms, a ki– a commercial kitchen, a fitness room, a gift wrapping room,” which is how you know you’re rich–
Christine: Ooh!
Em: “–a wine cellar, quarters for house staff, and much more,” which– You– I have to mention the gift wrapping room.
Christine: Wow. I– Wow.
Em: I have– On, on TikTok, I follow a lot of like h-home interior design.
Christine: Oh, me too.
Em: There’s nothing I want more in my life than a gift wrapping room.
Christine: Em, I would– I would literally break every historical rule and a-attach like an addendum to the top of my house that’s like wobbly and not up to code just to have a fucking gift wrap room. Like that– It’s so extra but like so satisfying when people have one. I, I follow those same people on TikTok, and I watch the whole thing.
Em: I’m obsessed. I’m also obviously obsessed– I don’t know what like– if there’s a name for it yet, but that door from the garage inside, so you can just leave your groceries by the little door and pull it right into your walk-in pantry. Are you fucking kidding me?
Christine: It, it is game changer. Game changer.
Em: Quick, quick que– quick little Q: Are you fucking kidding me?
Christine: Are– Hey, quick little A: No, I’m not.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: It’s hard to believe. But I’m absolutely not. Um, wow.
Em: There’s nothing that gets me riled like a gift wrapping room.
Christine: Okay, I watch all the videos because I know that like they’re, I guess, somewhat controversial and people always comment really nasty things, but I always watch them through when it’s like “my new house” like, “my new build, things I meant– things I was sure to include.”
Em: Mm.
Christine: And it’s like all the weird extras where you’re like, “Okay, that’s actually kinda genius. Like–“
Em: Yeah, give it to me now. What are you talking about?
Christine: Yeah, like things that aren’t an extra like huge monetary value, but it’s like just smart.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Like you know when they have, um, like certain drawers that pull out vertically instead of–
Em: Oh, Mamma mia.
Christine: For lids. You know, just dumb shit like that where you’re like, “Wait a minute, that’s fucking genius.”I love– Listen, a gift wrap room. Oh my lord.
Em: Oh, do you know what is about to rock your absolute fucking dome? Okay.
Christine: You tell me. You tell me.
Em: There is this man. He is obviously someone’s father. He is a– like a– like just a man in his 40s.
Christine: Yep.
Em: But he is absolutely, uh, a little too knowledgeable about historical antique furniture.
Christine: Oh.
Em: His name is Joe Himali.
Christine: Oh, this is all I want in my life. Hold on. I’m–
Em: He’s–
Christine: You’re– You know what you’re doing.
Em: He would be best friends with your stepfather. I am obsessed with Joe Himali. I have written on his TikToks. I have said, “The world is not ready for my obsession with Joe Himali.” And then Joe Himali replied, “Thank you.” Um–
Christine: Oh!
Em: It’s– Here’s the thing. He– Apparently, there is a Hoosier antique cabinet museum in something, Indiana.
Christine: ’Cause it’s Hoosier.
Em: And he runs it or is like the cu– He is somehow the historian there in some way, or he just has a fucking membership and just films everything. I don’t know what his deal is, but he loves to talk about Hoosier antique cabinetry. And the things that he finds or the things that Hoosier once did on these pieces of furniture is so smart, and I’m like, “Why don’t any of these things exist anymore?” Like so the– On the legs–
Christine: Really?
Em: On the legs of the– like the kitchen counters ’cause back then, one– they all had like legs. They weren’t installed into the floor. It was like they all had like wooden legs.
Christine: Right, right, right.
Em: And each of the legs would have like little cups. You would put keros– like gasoline or some sort of like, uh, chemical in, so that way it would be ant traps like so they couldn’t climb up the legs and get to all your food. And like–
Christine: Oh my god.
Em: And he w– He pulls out all these drawers, and he talks– He loves the bread boxes that have perforated air holes in– He loves those.
Christine: [gasps]
Em: But listening to this man talk about Hoosier antique cabinetry– All you want to do is go to this museum.
Christine: Okay, I need you to know. Okay, I’m so excited about this because also I’m gonna trade you my– one of my favorites, which is a Facebook group, um, where people post stuff in their house that they don’t understand what it’s for, like in their old house.
Em: I’m already part of it, girl. Don’t–
Christine: Of course you are. I should have known. It’s ridiculous of me to assume otherwise.
Em: I– The way that nobody knows what the old ice milk chest in their little– like the little shelf, their little ice box shelf–
Christine: Hilarious.
Em: Mm!
Christine: Hilarious. I mean, amateur hour.
Em: Oh my– Which one do you follow? Which one do you follow?
Christine: Let me check. Uh, I was on there today, and somebody posted a picture of these holes in the ground, like almost like peep holes to the basement. And apparently, it’s to let light in back in the Victorian times.
Em: Hm.
Christine: Because there was no light for the servant class who had to work in the basement, and, uh–
Em: Yuck.
Christine: –we might as well give them some air holes so they get some sun– sunlight.
Em: [sighs]
Christine: I was like, “Man, I– it’s just fascinating.”
Em: Um, I’m on a– I don’t have the n– the page in front of me, but I don’t follow a Facebook group. I follow the Reddit version of that. And, um–
Christine: Oh. I feel like I’ve turned my Facebook into Reddit, which I know is not ideal. I should have done it the other way around, but, um, too late.
Em: It’s a delight. But it– I need you to go find Joe Himali. You will love him.
Christine: Oh, I already got him. Don’t worry. I already follow him on Instagram.
Em: [laughs] Okay, okay.
Christine: I mean, obviously the moment you said it, I was like, “Well, I guess we’re friends with him now.” Um, I will say my stepdad probably will not– will want to talk more about–
Em: Trains.
Christine: I– Yeah. Well, I think I would be more, uh, intrigued by what he had to say. My stepdad would probably just try to tell him like what kind of stain to buy for the wood.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Like I think they have in– similar interests, but they’re kind of p– ships in the night. Like they’re just a little–
Em: I think they could bump into each other at a convention and make small talk.
Christine: Oh, no doubt. Oh, no doubt. And it would be well past bedtime that we finally got home. Yes, for sure.
Em: I don’t, I don’t know how we got here, but that was the end of the Sword Gates House, by the way. Uh, the last fun fact I had is that it was once owned by President Lincoln’s granddaughter. The end.
Christine: [laughs] Whoa.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: That’s– It is random.
Em: And if you wanted to see pictures of this place– if you want to see pictures of this place, um, Business Insider once took pictures because it was on the market. It was at one point like on the market for like $23 million, and it was most recently sold I think for $10 million. And it’s a museum now?
Christine: Ho– Wow.
Em: Um, but there’s pictures on Business Insider if you want to see what it looks like on the inside.
Christine: I’m gonna look that up. Um, hold on–[laughs] Scroll past my other groups. “Crow Lovers.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Um–
Em: You just scrolling past eight of those?
Christine: I’m just– Wait, so many of them. [laughs] Somebody’s [audio cuts off] tell me about their baby. Um.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Let’s see. Scroll past that fo sho. “Historic Victorian Photographs.” “Death Stairs” – that’s a whole group I’m in–
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: –where people post like stairs that look like they’ll kill you ’cause they’re like so narrow or steep or whatever.
Em: Oh my gosh. Death stairs.
Christine: Yeah, “Death Stairs.” That’s a good one, but A-I-R-S. Um, let’s see. “Painting of the Day.” [laughs] Okay. I, uh, I thought it would show up right away ’cause I was looking at it yesterday, but I think, um–
Em: Not so much.
Christine: –they’re mixing things up on my, on my feed today. But they– there are some really– I feel like if you just join any of the, um– Just talking to the listeners, ’cause Em and I are clearly on the same page, but, uh, in any of like the old house– They’re like o– “My Old House” or like “Pics of Old Houses” or, um, things like that, you’ll find some of those posts where people say like, “What is this strange thing coming from the ceiling?”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: And they g– have like the most crazy reasons where you’re like, “Wow, they were geniuses back then.”
Em: I mean, it– There’s some, some moments where I just go, “How–“ In my mind, it’s like so archaic. Like how are things so archaic and technologically advanced at the same time?
Christine: Yes, yes.
Em: Yeah, always blows my mind.
Christine: It’s like h– Sometimes I feel that way too about things like flossing where I’m like, “Really? It’s just string still? We’re just doing string.”
Em: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: Like I know there are like those expensive clunky water whatever the fuck that I do also own, but it’s like we’re still just string, baby. I don’t know.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: The floss industry is on to something or they’re– I don’t know.
Em: [laughs] They, they know a good thing when they see it. They don’t–
Christine: They sure do.
Em: They don’t touch, uh– They don’t touch success.
Christine: Oh gosh. Okay, here’s “Reconstructed Mummies.” I’m in a lot of groups. I mean, so are you. Unfortunately– Oh, “Gravestones of New England.” That’s a good Facebook group also. Sorry, now I feel like I just– Oh, maybe in the after hour– in the Yappy Hour, we do like a little like our favorite Facebook grou– or like Reddit, subreddits.
Em: Oh, easy.
Christine: Yeah, you wanna do that?
Em: Yes.
Christine: Okay.
Em: I also, by the way, just found out that Joe Himali works in DC, so now I have to go on Facebook and see if we have mutual friends. [laughs] Hold on, hang on a second.
Christine: If you do, I’m– I– If you do, tell, tell Tim ’cause, um, I’m sure they’re gonna be, uh–
Em: [under breath] J– Himali.
Christine: Spelled H-I-M-A-L-I, by the way, folks, if you’re, if you’re googling. I had to figure that out.
Em: Uh, we do not have mutual friends. I– For a s– But he– I mean, this is the happiest man you’ll ever see in your life. Look at him.
Christine: Oh, oh, Em. I’m on it already. I’m on his page. I–
Em: Look at him. That is a, that is a happy man.
Christine: Yeah, he looks like he likes to, to fish. He likes a day on the water.
Em: He, he loves the Hoosier cabinet, I’ll tell you that.
Christine: Hang on, hang on. You open that up?
Em: That’s a good man.
Christine: Hey, you open that up, Em. Zoom out a little bit. Look at, look at that left hand of his. What’s he doing there?
Em: Is he holding wine? He’s holding a glass of wine.
Christine: He’s holding a little glass, glass of wine. And guess what? It is, uh, half drunk, so he is having a time of his life.
Em: I gotta tell you. Joe Himali is chef’s kiss.
Christine: I– It looks like he’s just what’s up, you know. That’s what’s up.
Em: I hope he– I hope everyone goes and follows him, and then he goes, “What happened? What? How did–?”
Christine: I’ll be, I’ll be hon– I’ll be honest. I don’t even know who the hell this guy is, but I’m just really invested now.
Em: [laughs] I just love him. Anyway–
Christine: He went to Boston University.
Em: [applause]
Christine: Hey! No wonder.
Em: I have, I have a new thing to comment on his TikTok. Icebreaker!
Christine: Hey!
Em: Icebreakers.
Christine: Well, in– Well, include me since I found it, so I don’t have to come up with my own icebreaker.
Em: Okay. [laughs]
Christine: I’ll make it awkward. I wanna be the third wheel. Include me. Say, “Oh yeah, and this one too. She went there too, and she saw your– She saw it on your Facebook.”
Em: “She, she l– She likes what she sees.” Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: [laughs] Okay, so sorry. Back to this. Uh, just loving this guy’s energy. Really, really good.
Christine’s Story – Erik Poltorak
Christine: So this is a story that I have for you today, Em, and it is one I had never heard of and that always intrigues me because I feel like lately I’ve been doing a lot of that “I’ve been wanting to do this since the day we started the podcast.” Blah-blah-blah. That is not one of these stories. So.
Em: Okay.
Christine: This is the murder of Erik Poltorak in Los Angeles.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Now, a lot of these places in this story we can probably imagine pretty well because it takes place in West Hollywood.
Em: Oh, okay.
Christine: Uh, yeah. So that is somewhere we have experience. Erik Poltorak was born in LA in 1970 where he was raised alongside his older brother, Barry. And from a young age, Erik was a very kind and creative child. Um, he was very much a people person, and, uh, his older brother described him as the Poltorak family’s “darling.”
Em: Oh!
Christine: And I hope they– I hope it was said nicely from the sibling, not just like really, uh, you know.
Em: Right. Right, right.
Christine: Uh, what’s the word where you have, um–
Em: Like bullying?
Christine: No like, um. Oh, resentment, sorry.
Em: Oh, oh, oh.
Christine: Not like full of resentment like [in bitter tone] “He’s the darling child,” you know. I, I hope it was said in love. We can only hope. So he made friends with everyone he met. He was a very curious person, and he liked to – kind of like you, Em, actually. It reminds me a lot of you because he liked to go kind of outside his own field of knowledge and like look at other people’s interests–
Em: Mm.
Christine: –which I feel like is a very you thing.
Em: A curious fella.
Christine: Yeah, but also just like open-minded to other people’s intere– not just about what you care about, but just kind of like intrigued about what other people are interested in.
Em: I know– Talk– Ask Joe Himali. I know all about Hoosier cabinets now ’cause I gave him five minutes of my time.
Christine: I– See? See? And you appreciate that, you know, and I feel like that’s the kind of guy this was. It reminds me of you a lot. One of his best friends described him as Em Schulz– Oh, wait. No. [laughs]
Em: Ohh, was that Joe Himali, his best friend, or was–? [laughs]
Christine: No, ouch. [laughs] One of his best friends described him as a person who completely accepted everyone just as they are. Um, it’s just like– He had friend– It’s like– It really is like you, Em. Sorry, I have to keep saying that, but it’s like he had friend–
Em: Keep complimenting me.
Christine: He– No, he had friends that were like from so many different areas and backgrounds that like–
Em: Walks of life.
Christine: Yeah, and they’d get in the same room, and it was like whoa. What a, what a crowd, you know.
Em: Everyone’s from a different era, yeah.
Christine: Yeah, and he like gives everybody a kind of– a pass in to like be his friend, which I think is really cool. So anyway, uh, he was an entrepreneur as well, and he had a creative edge. And in early adulthood, he had had great success in insurance sales and a finance manager, so he was able to basically have the dream where he like made a ton of money young and then was able to pursue like hi–
Em: Whatever he wanted.
Christine: –all his side hobbies, yeah. Yeah.
Em: That’s awesome.
Christine: Right? Um, so he began– As he got into like his late 20s, early 30s, he began to explore fashion and jewelry sales, and then he was like, “Why don’t I just start making it myself?”
Em: Okay.
Christine: S– I know. So he started making accessories, and he created a business called “Roleplay Fashion”–
Em: Oh my.
Christine: –which sold lingerie, shoes, and costume jewelry. And I love their slogan. Roleplay Fashion’s slogan was “Who do you want to be tonight?”
Em: Oh!
Christine: I know, right? Isn’t that saucy? [laughs]
Em: Very saucy, yes.
Christine: According to the business’s mission, quote, “Our goal is to increase self-esteem, romance and love in the world. Life is tough enough with work, traffic, fa–“ First of all, love traffic being second on the list.
Em: I know. [laughs]
Christine: Before family. [laughs]
Em: [laughs]
Christine: That’s the most LA thing I ever heard. “Life is tough enough with work, traffic, family, friends and all the other little things that require our attention. So we believe that time away from all of that stuff should be held dear and enhanced by role play, sexy lingerie, toys and anything else that increases desire. We want you to feel good, look good, feel sexy, and have fun.”
Em: Oh, okay. That’s a nice mission statement.
Christine: I think so. So he seemed to really live out this mission statement. Um, he created a home for himself in West Hollywood among very, you know, eclectic people and people who were also very open-minded. His brand became pretty popular really fast. Like it kind of took off, even though it was just kind of a side hustle. Um, it was actually really popular among the rave, BDSM, and kink communities.
Em: Sure.
Christine: And he often sold clothes and jewelry at what, uh, had– has been described as an S&M club, but like that was mostly in the media, so when they say like, “It’s a sex club,” we don’t know–
Em: “It’s a sinners’ wicked–“
Christine: Yeah, yeah.
Em: “–wicked Satan devil worshippers–“ Yeah.
Christine: So you know like the, the news was gonna use words that were, uh, you know maybe– that can’t necessarily be trusted to mean like the more nuanced version of what it is, so.
Em: Right.
Christine: I, I don’t– I don’t quite know. We don’t know. But it was described in, uh, the newspaper as an S&M club. Uh, so. He also made apparel and accessories for furries.
Em: Oh, nice.
Christine: Because– Yeah, as I was watching this on, uh, I think Oxygen– I was watching, um, some coverage on it, and they kept showing photos of him with like a tail, you know, with like the, the accessories, but they didn’t mention– They mentioned only the like BDSM stuff.
Em: Mm.
Christine: And I was like, “I’m getting mixed messages here.” Like this guy’s dressed as a fox in this photo.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: And then they’re saying like, “He sold to like BDSM sex clubs.” And he’s going like this with like a peace sign, and he’s wearing like a fox– And I’m like, “I don’t understand what connection I’m supposed to be making here.”
Em: So he’s just sex-positive. Oh, okay. Next.
Christine: I think he’s sex-positive. Exactly. And I think people like to just interchangeably be like, “Look at all this freaky shit,” you know. “Let’s all just– You understand.” Um, and so I was a little bit unclear on why on earth they did it that way, but it’s okay. Um–
Em: Can I tell you a fun fact about– Well, not really a fun fact. A, a personal anecdote about furries?
Christine: Yes. Uh, I was just talking to Blaise about the time, um, you and I covered, uh, the– Or y– I guess, you covered in the intro the, um, program at Anthrocon.
Em: Oh yeah. That was a good one.
Christine: ’Cause Blaise was just in Pittsburgh, and he said it was going on while he was there.
Em: Oh, fun.
Christine: And he was like, “Oh my gosh, the city was like bustling.”
Em: It didn’t– I, you know– I don’t, uh, identify, uh, with the furry community at all, but I do identify with their program schedule. It was amazing. Um, looked like a great schedule.
Christine: Oh, man. I still think about some– I wish I could audit some of those classes.
Em: I would have gone to Anthrocon just to see what the hell that was all about. Um.
Christine: Well, and think about it. I could go to this guy, Erik, and be like, “Hey, I’m going to my first Anthrocon. What should I– What can you o– What can you help me with?”
Em: Yeah. I wanted to go to the one called like “I Ate Too Much Pasta.” Something like that. Like that was–
Christine: That was one so– That one was so good. That was one was–
Em: Something delicious. Amazing.
Christine: –top tier. I think that one was the most memorable for sure.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
Em: Um, and then there was like the, the, the one for parents. And it’s like “So Your Kid Dragged You to Anthrocon.”
Christine: [laughs] So clever. So self-aware. I love it.
Em: Um– Uh, no, my– One of my sibling is, uh, in the furry community, and, uh, it was apparently quite a, a dinner table conversation, uh, where my mom was texting me and asking what her fursona is, um, which is your–
Christine: Oh yes, yes, yes.
Em: And the– My sibling made all of the family get together and take a furry quiz together, and–
Christine: I think we did this in a Yappy Hour. I think you had me take the quiz.
Em: I think we did. I think we did.
Christine: Oh my gosh, that– If, if–
Em: Anyway, anytime I hear furries I just think of my mom being like, “I can’t decide what animal I am.” [laughs]
Christine: My f– Oh my gosh. I– When we talked about that, we have– I wanna go back and find that video. It’s somewhere on Patreon, but there’s a video of us and you reading your mom’s like little bio and saying what she got–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: –and then saying like what she wanted to get. Man, it was really funny. And then I took the quiz too. Um, I got something like an iguana. I don’t remember.
Em: Yeah, I got something weird.
Christine: It was strange, but, uh, yeah. So that’s on Patreon.
Em: Anyway, I hear furries; I think of my mom. You know, you know how it is.
Christine: Alright, Eva, write that down for, uh, Em’s next therapy appointment. Okay.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: So, uh, la-la-la. He didn’t seem to make full like fursuits, but he did make apparel and accessories for furries. And he really, really thrived in these subcultures. It was his business, his passion. It’s where he found friendship, and it’s where he found love.
Em: Aw.
Christine: Aw. He did a lot of business out of his home in Beverly Grove. Hey, doesn’t that sound familiar.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: When they were describing it, they were like, “Oh, an up– an upscale, uh, shopping center by– uh, you know, surrounded by the buses of Hollywood and glitz and glamour.” I’m like, okay. The Grove is– I, I mean, it’s, it’s nice.
Em: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: But I don’t know. Like calm down, calm down.
Em: Like, “Tinseltown!” It’s like, alright. Alright.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like I don’t know. I stubbed my toe there one time. It wasn’t that great.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Okay, so let’s see. He had a home in Beverly Grove, and remember, he had made good money, right? Like in his early career. So he had been able to purchase a house there, which you know the housing prices in like Beverly Grove are–
Em: Crazy.
Christine: –high. High. So–
Em: So good for him.
Christine: Yeah, so good for him.
Em: Okay. [laughs]
Christine: So he did a lot of business out of that particular home in Beverly Grove, and this was a home that he also shared with his daughter.
Em: Hm.
Christine: Now, he had an ex-wife named Nikki, and the two of them had had a daughter before they split up. And he and his daughter were really, really close. His friends and his brother, Barry, said that Erik loved being a father. He was dependable. He was doting. Um, he loved to spend time with his daughter, and they had a lot of shared interests which is kinda cute. ‘Cause, you know, he had such eclectic interests, I like the idea that she, as even a small kid, had– Like he was encouraging of that, you know.
Em: Well, I– I’m also– I feel like it’s probably– I don’t, I don’t know what stereotypes of furries are, but I would imagine one of the good ones is that like you’re open to other people having like some wonky interests too.
Christine: Yes.
Em: Like– or like off the beaten path interests, you know.
Christine: Yes. Yes, exactly. Like not mainstream necessarily, or like a subculture.
Em: Yeah, so I, I would argue that having a furry as a parent is probably really good for your mental health because they’re gonna be supportive of a lot. So.
Christine: Oh, absolutely. No, I totally agree, and it sounds like that’s exactly why they were so close, which is really cool. Um, his house there, especially being so central in LA, became a social hub where people would gather to dress up and have fun, and people could basically go into his home and just be whoever they wanted which is pretty great. It was difficult to imagine, um, all of this kind of sanctity, his, his beautiful set up f– his beautiful social circle, his beautiful home being violated, but unfortunately, in the fall of 2011, Erik had a life-changing event when he experienced a violent home invasion–
Em: Oh fuck.
Christine: –which I know is like your biggest fear.
Em: Totally.
Christine: Yeah. So two men knocked on his door and claimed they were there to serve Erik legal paperwork, possibly to do with some unknown lawsuit. Erik’s neighborhood was friendly and social, and he knew most of his neighbors. And he felt pretty safe there, um, so he let them in. Once inside, turns out the paperwork, of course, was phony, and one of them pulled a gun and demanded money. Um, Erik said he didn’t have any, so the man struck Erik over the head, basically pistol whipped him. And then the duo tied him up with an extension cord and ransacked his house.
Em: Mm.
Christine: So they left with electronics and cash, and Erik eventually managed to free himself from the cord to call 911. The assailants left behind the supposed legal documents covered in their fingerprints.
Em: Dummies.
Christine: Ultimately, the police matched the prints to one man who was on probation for a prior felony conviction, and so they like immediately arrested him and charged him for the robbery and assault. But Erik was still reeling, even though this guy’s in prison, you know.
Em: I mean, the trauma is very– I, I can’t imagine.
Christine: No, me neither like–
Em: And also constantly wondering like, “Do they have friends? Are the friends gonna come here now, like, to get revenge or?” Yeah.
Christine: Right, right. Yeah, it just feels like an acute fear that like you didn’t have before, and now it’s just like all you think about. Like I would– [audio cuts off] like over– overcome it– overcoming everything else.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Um, so he could not get himself to settle back into that sense of security. He installed a security system (I mean, that would also be my first move) with large visible cameras mounted around the house to discourage people from attacking again. Um, Barry, his older brother, said in an interview that he believed the men targeted Erik because of his business, which they believed sold real jewelry, not costume jewelry.
Em: Mm.
Christine: So they think like, “Oh, he–“ They saw that he sells jewelry, and they thought that he had like gemstones in his house–
Em: Right.
Christine: –and, and lots of cash or diamonds.
Em: Which is like– What a stretch to think that like, “Oh, this–“ Even if he– Even if they did sell the finest diamonds, why would there just be rubies sitting around in your house? Like–
Christine: I know. I know. I’m sure they at least thought like, “Oh, there’s a safe with like–“
Em: Something.
Christine: Money– or– Yeah, yeah. I– Jewelry. I don’t know. I don’t know. But yeah, I agree. It’s kind of a–
Em: It’s– Sorry, I was gonna say it’s like the last episode we did where we were like– When, when he found out that he killed that girl for like only like $12,000–
Christine: [gasps] Yes.
Em: –or something.
Christine: Yes, yes.
Em: It’s like how many diamonds are worth a home invasion. Like why–
Christine: No, like for real. It’s–
Em: Like maybe something in the safe? That’s why you would break into someone’s whole house and put them at gunpoint?
Christine: Without even doing enough research to realize like it’s not even jewelry. It’s just like costume accessories for furries.
Em: Yeah, like–
Christine: It’s a harmless like not high-yield, you know, situation.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Not, not– At least not diamond jewelry level. So months passed, and Erik sort of slowly started to get more comfortable, uh, being back in the world, in his business, his social spheres. And a year passed, and he went out with his friends to celebrate the biggest holiday of the year in the roleplay and costume scene–
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Arbor Day. No, I’m kidding. Halloween.
Em: I was gonna say. [laughs]
Christine: And [laughs] of course, Em, as you probably know, Halloween in West Hollywood is like–
Em: Oh, you don’t even go. It’s– [laughs]
Christine: –Halloween on steroids. It’s, it’s out of control.
Em: You wanna go, but you don’t ev– The traffic is– One year, I decided to try to go to WeHo for Halloween and to get in– I mean, forget parking like– But we took an Uber, and we were sitting in traffic for like 90 minutes in one neighborhood.
Christine: Well, when Alexander and I did our LA show, I read reviews of, um– I read reviews of that event, and all people complained about was the, was the parking and the, the Uber. But, uh, I did go once. I did– Um, Alexis and I went. We were dressed as Buzz Lightyear and Woody.
Em: Nice.
Christine: And, uh, we had a great time, but we basically did it and said, “Cool. Check that off the list. Never again.” [laughs]
Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, it’s just really wild like, like meeting strangers and–
Em: Really wild.
Christine: –people are handing out drugs. I mean, it’s just– It is–
Em: I don’t know if we like stated this too, but in, in case you don’t live in LA, WeHo is like known as the, the Gayborhood.
Christine: Oh yes, yes.
Em: Like it’s– So it– That’s another reason why Halloween is so big there. It’s just, it’s just the land of queers, and so–
Christine: Yes, so people like go all out, all out.
Em: Yeah, yeah.
Christine: Mm-hmm. And all the bars have like, you know– are open, and everybody’s kind of just milling about. They close the streets. It’s, it’s, uh, chaos is what it is.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So, anyway. Um, this is where he lived. And so he was, he was– Or he was living in Beverly Grove, but he decided to go out for Halloween – this was about a year later – with his friends in West Hollywood, and, of course, it was gonna be a wild time. Um, and they, they had apparently a really great time. He dressed as a ‘20s mobster, if you were curious about that.
Em: Ooh! [in exaggerated, high-pitched English accent] “Oi, mister!”
Christine: Yeah. [laughs] Same thing. Sounds just like Al Capone. I think.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Um [laughs] So you know when they say like, “Oh, we found this, this mummified person, and we’re going to, um, like use their– 3D print their vocal cords to see what they sounded like.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: I feel like that’s what they’re gonna do for Al Capone.
Em: “Oi, mister!” [laughs]
Christine: He sounds like a little like, “Why I oughta,” Scrappy-Doo situation. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Just sounds like he should be in Sweeney Todd.
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like when they talk about like celebrities that like hid how short they were for, for decades, you know.
Em: Right, right. [laughs]
Christine: It’s like, “It’s a secret.” Even though he’s this tough guy, he sounds like a little pipsqueak. Anyway, okay. I’m so sorry. So they’re out on the town. He’s dressed as, uh, [in exaggerated, high-pitched ‘20s accent] “Al Capone, I tell you.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: And they’re out [laughs], I’m assuming, taking shots and, uh, getting sweaty and making out with people. I don’t know. It’s probably a wild time.
Em: Having a good time.
Christine: Ap– Yeah. Apparently, he had a really, really good time. Um, and then it was such a good time that he actually invited people back to his house afterward to like continue the party. So around 2 a.m., they’re, they’re finally like starting to wind down, and he walks everybody out to their cars and decides to head back in for the night. Um, there was nothing really remarkable about that evening. Um, it was just a very fun and enjoyable night. But the next day, something seemed off to his friend and business partner who had called him several times that morning with no response. So she finally drove to his house, walked up to the front door, and found Erik, in her words, “cold and dead and covered in blood.”
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: So she made a frantic 911 call. Um, responding officers found Erik exactly as she had said, and at this point, he was only 42-years-old.
Em: That’s wild. And I also– My– What I was gonna say earlier when you said, “Oh, he invited a bunch of people back,” my first thought was, “Oh, he’ll really feel safe that night because–“
Christine: Exac– I think that’s why. Yes.
Em: At least like in the power of numbers, you know.
Christine: Yes, I had that exact same thought where like you have people around and you feel so much more secure, yeah. So i-it, it was, uh, very traumatic. It was immediately obvious to investigators that he had been shot in the back of the head at close range–
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: –by a high-powered weapon, and the attack would not have ever been survivable. So it was just–
Em: Quick and fast, at least.
Christine: –one and done. Yeah.
Em: Okay.
Christine: Yeah, yeah. Further analysis of Erik and the scene revealed a second slight graze wound on his face, and at least two shots had been fired but only one was actually fatal. So the killer collected the bullet casings, but they didn’t take anything from Erik or his home, so this seemed personal and pre-meditated in other words.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Erik was dead for at least ten hours before he was discovered, which makes you so sad to think about like walking your dog past that night–
Em: I know.
Christine: –and like not having any clue that moments ago somebody was killed there, you know.
Em: Someone in our neighborhood– Um, there was– We, we passed by this building all the time. It’s just like a nail salon or something, and a body was just found up there that was there for like three days apparently.
Christine: [gasps] [sighs]
Em: And it’s so weird that like we were maybe driving past.
Christine: You just hate to hear that, yeah.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: That’s sad. That’s sad. And I’m sure it happens all the time, all the time. So yeah, he had been shot about ten hours before, um, before his business partner had been able to find him and call police. But because the neighbors couldn’t see front porch from the sidewalk, they weren’t able to see his body even though it was basically right there in front of them–
Em: Wow.
Christine: –which is also very chilling.
Em: Mm.
Christine: So Erik’s brother happened to be a deput– a deputy sheriff who had just wrapped up training with the homicide bureau and had to fucking immediately respond to the scene.
Em: Oh my god. They– So they weren’t even like, “Oh, this is too personal. You have to stay off this case.”
Christine: I, I think he probably wanted to go. It said that he responded to the scene right away, so I don’t know if that was he had just passed training and he heard what happened. I assume–
Em: And he just ran over, yeah.
Christine: I assume he would like wanted to be part of it. So he did respond to the scene, um, and at first, he like really couldn’t even grasp it. Um, but when he f– walked inside the house– and he just said that it felt empty, quiet–
Em: Ooh.
Christine: Like you know how this was such a vibrant, social, and space for–
Em: Yeah.
Christine: –and like open. He just said there this was like silence and emptiness to the house, and it just suddenly hit him all at once that his brother was dead. And at this point, he couldn’t imagine who would want to kill his brother, and neither could anyone else who knew Eric. Um, everyone who told the police– Or– Sorry. Everyone who interviewed with police had only good things to say about him. Um, so the case detectives dug deep into Erik’s life for any possible motive among anyone he knew. Um, there were headlines, of course, like I mentioned earlier, about his death that sensationalized his [audio cuts off], and they refer to h-him as a “sex-clothes exec.”
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: Which like isn’t even very catchy or [unintelligible]–
Em: It’s not even a, it’s not even a good bad name.
Christine: No, exactly. It’s not even like, “Oh, I had to do it ’cause it was so clever.” It’s like not even that.
Em: And I– You know like the friends that were with them– that were with him that night, they’re all talking to each other, being like, “Well, let’s think about every single person in the group.” I’d almost be scared to reach out to the people in the group ’cause I’m like what if it’s– what if that’s the one that did it, you know?
Christine: I feel like– [sighs] That’s like a whole ‘nother social anxiety on top of everything else. Like– Oh god. Like, “Was it one of us?”
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Ooh. Ooh, that’s chilling.
Em: And it doesn’t feel totally premeditated to me if like they just left the body there. Like wouldn’t you think like about disposing of the body or maybe it not being so damn close to the yard, you know, like–
Christine: I mean, I think oftentimes if somebody just wants someone dead, they just get rid of the evidence of what they did and like– I don’t know.
Em: I mean, it does feel premeditated that they got rid of the casings, I guess.
Christine: Yeah.
Em: But I– It’s wild that they– I feel like that the– It went– It got out of hand in some way ’cause you would think they’d want to try to hurt him in a quieter spot or in a less obvious spot. I don’t know.
Christine: I don’t know. It seemed like very intentional for a– You basically shoot and jump in the car, you know, like getaway car.
Em: Mm. Okay.
Christine: Um, but, but yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. Um, I’ve definitely seen that before though where people who are kill– who are shot and killed intentionally are like shot and killed right outside their home. I don’t know why.
Em: Gotcha. Like a drive-by?
Christine: More like a drive-by, I guess. Yeah. I don’t know.
Em: ‘Kay.
Christine: I don’t know. Um, so he has no clue who, who this could be. And of course, all– When the me-media gets hold of it, it becomes s– “This sex-clothes exec–“ Again, it’s still not, still not good. Um, there was speculation that Erik’s business and nightlife played a role in his death because it was like different and weird quote unquote, you know.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But, um, that just seemed to be rooted in the, the misconception of sex clubs as inherently unsafe, uh, or even as the misconception of being a furry as like some depraved thing, you know. I think there were just a lot of, uh, stereotypes being bandied about.
Em: Sure.
Christine: Um, but in reality, Erik seemed to have nothing but friends and loyal customers and like happy relationships in that scene. What was almost completely overlooked in the media coverage of his death though was Erik’s very public involvement with this guy named Z– Oh my gosh. Zecharia Sitchin.
Em: [sighs] That’s, that’s a, that’s another easy Facebook search.
Christine: [laughs]
Em: That’s a– You don’t have to wonder if you found the right guy.
Christine: Well, maybe don’t go looking for this one quite yet. I don’t know. Basically this guy–
Em: I’m just saying if you heard about him at a bar, your friend would find him very easily. This isn’t–
Christine: Immediately.
Em: You wouldn’t have to hire Christine for the–
Christine: And my mutual friend would be Em Schulz probably. Um, we have one mutual.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: So this guy was an alien theorist, uh, so to speak. He wrote that the human species was once a genetic science project created– It has very Scientology vibes. Was a, a gen-genetic science project created by an ancient race of extraterrestrials from a planet called Nibiru. So this feels like the Travel Channel [laughs] or whatever the fuck– What show– What– Ancient Aliens. It’s like– It’s basically Ancient Aliens is what it is–
Em: Okay.
Christine: –that this guy subscribes to. And, um, yeah, basically he says that these extraterrestrials are said to have genetically engineered humans to serve them as slaves, but we were eventually abandoned and consequently freed. And basically this Sitchin guy and his books are often referenced in fringe Doomsday conspiracies. And actually, Em, you mentioned him in episode– [laughs] apparently, episode 339 when we covered the 2012 prophecy. Um.
Em: I did?
Christine: Yeah, apparently you mentioned him, probably just like a side note maybe. I don’t know. I don’t know.
Em: Wild.
Christine: But he, he’s basically one of those guys who claimed like he knew the world was ending, yada yada.
Em: That’s so weird like it– isn’t that– What? You tell me now. What?
Christine: No, no, no. No, no. Go ahead.
Em: I was gonna say isn’t it–
Christine: I was just gonna move on.
Em: –wild that like– I wonder how many of our stories do have an overlap of like, “Oh, there’s a mutual friend,” but that like somehow connects to both our stories.
Christine: [gasps] I mean, it’s, it’s usually Houdini or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Those two are– seem to have their fucking hands in everything.
Em: I know, but like what are the odds of like, “Oh yeah, and here’s this Doomsday stuff where I talk about this random guy. Oh, by the way, he was a prime suspect in a murder. Like that–“
Christine: No. No, no, no. He is not a prime suspect in a murder–
Em: Oh okay.
Christine: –to be clear, very clear here. Uh, no, no, no.
Em: I heard he had a connection to the murder victim, and I was like, “Okay, here we go.”
Christine: No, no, no. So sorry. He had, uh, this, this involvement with this guy, Zecharia Sitchin, um, and he knew him personally. They were actually friends because he worked as his website manager. Um, he was like the webmaster basically for Sitchin’s whole website. And according to friends, Erik and his ex-wife actually divorced because of these irreconcilable spiritual beliefs. Like she just couldn’t get on board with the kind of fringe thinking, and it broke them apart.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: So during their marriage, uh, Nikki mean– [laughs] I forgot about this part. I just am eating– talk about eating my words four, four mo– seconds after I said them.
Em: What?
Christine: I completely forgot that she became a Scientologist during the marriage, so–
Em: Oh. [laughs]
Christine: –when I said, “Oh, she just [audio cuts off] deal with the fringe beliefs,” and then I was like, “Anyway, she joined Scientology.” Sorry, that sounded very silly. Um, basically, they had irreconcilable spiritual beliefs in which Niki was a Scientologist and Eric was like, “That’s ridiculous. I can’t support that. Also we’re descended from a science project [unintelligible] alien astronauts.”
Em: I see. They do feel like they could be cousins spiritually, uh.
Christine: It feels like– right, like that thing where they’re too close.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: That like it’s just gonna butt heads, you know.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Kinda like John Helan– What was his name? Joe Himal– Joe–
Em: Joe Himali.
Christine: And my stepdad. You know, it’s like, “Oh, you could really get along, and you did for a while, but it’s just irreconcilable differences, you know.” Um, anyway, so instead of Scientology, Erik was a devout student of Zecharia Sitchin’s teachings, going so far as to travel the world to sites with extreme cultural significance apparently to research their supposed links to ancient extraterrestrial powers. Now, I laugh at this a little bit, and I kind of, uh, find it problematic. And I think we’ve probably talked about this or at least you may have heard about it, folks. But like the idea that– On some of these shows that, um, you know, ancient peoples who aren’t white people most of the time– Uh, the theory is that they couldn’t create a pyramid, so aliens must have done it. You know what I mean?
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: There’s like this kind of, uh, icky undercurrent of that argument, so I don’t ascribe to it. But that was a huge part of this quote unquote like teaching is that, um, you know aliens, extraterrestrials built–
Em: The pyramids.
Christine: –the Great Pyramids, the, uh, etc., etc., etc. Basically, all the episodes of Ancient Aliens, I assume.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: I haven’t seen it in a while, but that’s kind of the vibe. So paleontologist Julien Benoit addressed people following Zecharia’s writing, like Erik, some of whom have actually damaged culturally significant sites, such as pyramids in Egypt–
Em: Of course.
Christine: –trying to prove that aliens did it. Like y-yikes. And so this guy–
Em: And how would you prove that, by the way?
Christine: Yeah, right. Right. Great point, Em.
Em: What, what sample are– of a pyramid are you going to bring to what doctor who’s gonna–
Christine: To what lab?
Em: –who’s gonna do what science to it to figure out that it actually is–? Like are you hoping that the result would be inconclusive because we don’t have the technology?
Christine: No, I’m not kidding. They were looking– I– One episode said that they were looking for some element, some space e-element that you wouldn’t find, and they believed that it would be present in the stones or something, meaning they would be from outer space.
Em: And that proves aliens?
Christine: Right, exactly. I mean.
Em: There could be a million reasons for that. Okay. Well, whatever.
Christine: [sighs] Yeah. Um, so the, the paleontologist who called them out wrote, “Well, you may ask, so what? Who cares if relatively few people don’t believe the ancient Egyptians built the pyramids? What’s the harm? Actually, there is great harm: firstly, these people try to prove their theories by traveling the world and desecrating ancient artifacts. Secondly, they perpetuate and give air to the racist notion that only Europeans – white people – ever were and ever will be capable of such architectural feats.” End quote.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: [snapping fingers] Snaps for, for Julian.
Em: [snapping fingers] Truly. I mean, I also used to fall victim to the “Oh, it must be aliens,” before I ever like–
Christine: Absolutely. I mean, you and I were so, so impressed by– What was it? A, a door to bring your luggage inside or something? [laughing] What were we just talking about?
Em: We’re impressed by– We’re easily bamboozled, let’s put it that way.
Christine: Yeah, so like we’re impressed that people even thought to put holes in the floor to bring light into the basement, okay? So like I can see why we’d fall victim to something like this, but, yeah, it is important to realize that it has pretty racist, uh– I said undercurrents earlier. It’s probably more like overcurrent.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: Anyway. Um, so it’s not known exactly how Erik– like what his extent of interactions were with all these cultural sites, but he did play a very public role in encouraging these beliefs on others, even appearing on Ancient Aliens.
Em: Oh, holy shit. Is that how you found this guy, or you–?
Christine: Um, no. This was something I’d never heard of before. I just–
Em: Oh, wow.
Christine: Yeah, and, and– I mean, as I was like listening to them go on about– I was like, “This sounds like he should be on Ancient Aliens,” and then they’re like “until his guest appearance on Ancient Aliens, which, by the way–
Em: Well, there we go.
Christine: There we go. And they also made his fucking, uh, byline or– what’s it called? Your like, your lower third. It said “Sumerian Researcher.” And it’s like, “Okay...”
Em: Oh my god.
Christine: He’s– First of all, take several seats because he is a sex-clothes exec, and that’s what you should put on the lower third. [laughs]
Em: [laughs] Right, okay. It’s like it should be the picture of him in his furry suit that says– [holds up a peace sign]
Christine: [laughs] Yes, yes. Like–
Em: [virtual balloons rise from the bottom of Em’s video] Oh.
Christine: Oh. The balloons are coming up. [laughs] The balloons. Picture of him in his furry suit and like–
Em: [holds up peace sign again] Sex clothes expert [balloons reappear, rising up in front of Em] and then also a Sumerian researcher.
Christine: [laughs] I just can’t– And financial– r-retired financial advisor. Anyway.
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Um. [laughs]
Em: Didn’t I cover the Sumerians? Maybe that’s when, uh– what the episode was. I think we–
Christine: Oh.
Em: Like Mount Shasta or something.
Christine: You did cover the Sumerians at one point, yeah. Um.
Em: Maybe, maybe I took quotes from him. I don’t know.
Christine: Honestly, he could have been in multiple of your episodes. I wouldn’t be surprised. Uh, okay. So yeah. Maybe as they’re going through this, they were like– I mean, this is a pretty wild lead that I assume police don’t see all the time, so they were like, “Did he meet someone during his travels who wanted to hurt him? Did someone who had even more extreme beliefs like beca– become like violent toward him for his research? Or they– you know they thought he was doing something wrong?” So detectives investigated several avenues, um, in that regard as well. I mean, he had very varied interests, very varied interests. Um, which again reminds me of you. Seriously, every time. So–
Em: Maybe he just had ADHD.
Christine: I mean, obviously he did. But that w– [laughs] That goes unsaid. You know, that d– Still. Still. I have ADHD. I’m not nearly as like, um. I don’t know.
[silence]
Em: Okay. [laughs] I know what you mean.
Christine: Culture– Culturally, uh, interested in niche subjects as you are. I don’t know.
Em: I think my special interest is special interests.
Christine: That– Yeah. Thank you! That’s the best way to put it. That’s the best way to put it. So detectives investigated several avenues searching for Erik’s killer, um, whose identity remained a mystery despite the entire atta– attack happening on camera. Remember when he got that security system?
Em: Oh yeah.
Christine: So one of his security cameras was pointed directly where Erik was murdered, and it shows– Oh, this is so chilling. It shows him walking his friends to his c– to their cars, and then he walks back to his front door. And as he’s about to enter, the killer steps out from behind the bushes, aiming a large gun at Erik and firing twice.
Em: Shit.
Christine: But the issue is they were wearing a Halloween costume.
Em: Of course.
Christine: Some sort–
Em: Didn’t this just happen? Didn’t you just do a Halloween shooting?
Christine: I know. I did. I did. I did.
Em: At someone’s doorstep?
Christine: I did. I think maybe that’s where the, uh, the algorithm took me. They were like, “Ah. I see."
Em: The Trick-or-Treat– The Trick-or-Treat Killer or something.
Christine: Yeah, it was, uh, it was a murder on Halloween as well. Yeah.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Yeah. So this–
Em: What was the costume that this guy was wearing?
Christine: Uh, it was basically just a robe and like a mask. It was like the very basic, um [audio cuts off] – which I think– So one of the people on the show said something like, “which is basically what you get if you haven’t planned any sort of Halloween co–“ Like she said it in a very catty way of like, “which is the lamest thing you could be on Halloween.” You know, like, “You can just pick that up at the dollar store.”
Em: [laughs] Yeah, it’s like y-you weren’t even creative with your stupid Halloween outfit.
Christine: Yeah. No creativity whatsoever. But, yeah–
Em: But I also get that that’s like you would pick the vaguest one. That’s like–
Christine: The vaguest one. And it’s, it’s, it’s a black hood with like just a covered face mask, so it’s basically like you c– like a cloak situation, so you can’t tell who it is. And so you know, they got up close– They’re even holding a weapon which could be concealed or be– pretend to be fake, you know. And so they basically are easy to blend in, and nobody even thought twice. So neighbors later reported hearing what may have been gunshots, but there’s so much partying going on that they were like, “Well, maybe it was firecrackers or a car misfire– backfiring.”
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And so police only knew that the murderer was tall – they could see the outline – with a broad frame, and the attack was swift and pointed like an execution.
Em: Mm.
Christine: So they were basically like “Somebody has probably ordered this hit.”
Em: I was gonna say it definitely wasn’t one of his friends that he– Like everyone left at the same time.
Christine: Yeah, they all left at the same time. This person had– So they showed the group arriving and then all of them leaving, and it was as he walked back alone that somebody jumped out.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Um, so with no other leads, detectives looked at the guy they had in prison, Michael Thomas, one of the two men who had attacked and robbed Erik in 2011, a year earlier, and the only one who was caught. But of course, he was in police custody when Erik was killed. Um, he had been charged in August 2012, which was roughly a year after the home inv-invasion. So in October of 2012, he was still in prison. Uh, Erik was set to testify against Michael in a pre-trial hearing on December 2nd, and he had recently spoken to his brother, Barry, about testifying and how nervous he was to go to court and, and, uh, you know, testify against this man who had attacked him. So he wondered to his brother if he was maybe eligible for witness protection.
Em: Mm.
Christine: Michael’s partner in the crime was still free, and, of course, he knew where Erik lived because he had gone there to rob him. Um, so Erik was like, “Shit–“ like you said, Em, earlier, that you’d be constantly like, “Is the friend gonna come back?”
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Like “They know where I live.” And so turns out those fears were completely warranted. He asked aloud to his brother, you know, “I wonder if I’m eligible for witness protection.” But, um, you know, that never really happened. Uh, in the end, Erik was killed before he even had the chance to, you know, decide whether or not to testify. Although Michael was in custody awaiting trial, investigators basically assumed he may have had something to do with this man’s death because hmm, I wonder why. Erik was about to testify against him in court.
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: So they listened to hundreds of phone calls that Michael made from inside prison, mostly to his girlfriend, who was 49-year-old Yvonne Keith, and his 20-year-old niece who lived with him named Jessicha Thomas, and Je-Jessicha’s boyfriend, 20-year-old Allen Williams. So there were a lot of phone calls. They listened to and transcribed all of them. In one phone call, Michael said to Allen, “You ready to put in some work? Well, since I’m not out there, then someone else has got to fight this case for me on the streets.”
Em: Ooh.
Christine: Basically, he was asking them to get him out of jail by getting rid of the eyewitness.
Em: Right.
Christine: He told Allen that somebody needed to make it all disappear and that the case could be dismissed if an unnamed specific person didn’t appear in court to testify.
Em: Mm.
Christine: He said, quote, “If the person doesn’t come, then it goes away. That’s the only way I’m going to be cleared.” And I guess he thought that was subtle enough to not tip off investigators.
Em: What an idiot. I mean, this guy also didn’t like look up if the jewelry was real before he robbed somebody–
Christine: Very good point. Very good point.
Em: –so he clearly doesn’t, um– He’s not learning from his mistakes.
Christine: The fourth– Yes. The f– the frontal lobe is not frontal lobe-ing today, I think. Um.
Em: It– Yes, that’s exactly right.
Christine: So in other phone calls, they heard Michael coaching Yvonne for something vague. [sighs] He told her to refuse to speak to authorities without a lawyer, and she repea– repeated his instruction as if writing them down on a piece of paper. The morning after Erik’s death, Yvonne called Michael and told him everything was, quote, “wonderful,” which I guess was their keyword like, “it’s been handled.” She began to elaborate, and he cut her off and said, “That’s enough.” Then he asked if everything was “gravy,” and she confirmed that it was and ended the call. [laughs]
Em: Gravy? What the hell– What year is this?
Christine: Pass th– No.
Em: Yeah. [laughs] Everything is– Everything–
Christine: [in exaggerated, nasal voice] “Everything’s gravy. Hi, I’m Al Capone, and I’m here on behalf of Hillshire Farms gravy.”
Em: [laughs]
Christine: Okay. [laughs] Three days after Erik was murdered, Jessicha and Allen, so his, his girlfriend and niece–
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: –visited him in prison, and their conversation, of course, was recorded. So Michael asked Jessicha if she personally got close enough to “confirm it,” and she said she did. But there were strange pauses throughout the conversation, and the investigators realized, “Wait a minute. They’re passing notes to each other.”
Em: Mm.
Christine: And because they’re not visual, they’re just like auditory recorded–
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: –audio recorded, um, they went in, and they said, “There’s no way that they like left the notes in here. Right?” They had thrown them in the trash can of the visitor’s room.
Em: Like the on– The one thing these people are not is thinkers.
Christine: Is, is thinking ahead at all in one single way. Ever.
Em: Mm-mmm.
Christine: Because basically, they tore up the notes and then dumped them in the trash of the visiting room. And of course, they immediately pulled them out.
Em: Oh god.
Christine: Um, yeah. And it wasn’t good news for Michael. They found these notes, and, uh, the papers basically informed– The first one informed Michael that Erik’s death was on the news. So his niece wrote down, “Hey, Erik’s death is on the news.”
Em: God.
Christine: Michael then wrote back instructions to tell the police that everyone was playing video games together all night when Erik was killed.
Em: Okay.
Christine: So Jessicha, Allen, an-and Yvonne were all arrested, and a search of their things found more notes that Yvonne had written with instructions from Michael, down to the type of weapon and ammunition used in the attack.
Em: Jeez.
Christine: In a holding cell together, Jessicha and Yvonne spoke openly about the crime, while Jessicha wept. Now, Jessicha’s his niece. She’s only 20. And she, she’s been kind of roped into all this. Yvonne told Jessicha they all did what they had to do to please Michael, who seemed to be, I guess, a skilled manipulator. Like he seemed to hold serious control over his girlfriend and his niece. Um, basically, he told them to do this, and they did it.
Em: Wow. Okay.
Christine: Allen and Jessicha had no prior criminal history at all. Um, and when Jessicha’s mother died, she had moved to LA to live with Michael, and she told him that he was a father to her. And she really loved and trusted him, and he treated her like his own daughter. And so when he said, “You gotta do this [audio cuts off] me,” she was like, “Okay.” So in custody for the crime though, Jessicha’s loyalty crumbled, and she basically immediately confessed to her part in the crime.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Um, she even said to Yvonne in the holding cell, “I can’t believe we did this. I’m not sad for me. I’m sad for Erik. He ain’t never did nothing.”
Em: Wow.
Christine: So they’re basically like, “How did we get roped into this?” And Jessicha–
Em: At least someone feels regret. Like–
Christine: It– No, truly. And it is very refreshing because– Well, we’ll get there. Jessicha quickly revealed the entire plot to detectives, describing her role as the lookout in the vehicle while Allen, the, the, the guy, the man, her boyfriend–
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: –pulled the trigger and killed Erik. Her aunt said in an interview that Jessicha was manipulated by Michael to do something completely out of her character that she’ll forever regret. And she did accept a leniency deal for a second degree murder conviction and a life sentence with possibility of parole, um, in exchange for testifying against him. Yvonne was considered more responsible for Erik’s death because not only was she in the getaway car, but she actually was the one who took all the instructions down over the phone. She was the phone who told Jessicha and Allen what to do. She oversaw Michael’s plan on his behalf, so she was sort of like the manager of this whole plot. She and Allen, who, uh, Jessicha’s boyfriend, who actually shot the gun, uh, were both convicted for murder in the first degree and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. And Michael–
Em: Both of them?
Christine: Both of them were. Yep. Michael, who orchestrated the entire plot to avoid home invasion charges was ultimately sentenced to death for his role in the murder. Basically, he tried to get out of prison and ended up in prison for longer and for worse and on death row.
Em: LOL.
Christine: Yeah. Uh, and a– his, his defense tried to argue on his behalf against the death penalty, and he said, “Nah, I give up. I just want to– I just want to sleep.”
Em: [sputters] Jeez.
Christine: And because, uh, the defense couldn’t overrule that, the judge was like, “Listen, he said it. Sorry. Goodbye, defense team. He’s going on death row.”
Em: Wow.
Christine: And he did. So after headlines focused on what some, some call– Like fuck off. This pisses me off so much. The headlines were focusing on like Erik’s “double life.”
Em: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Like because he had this–
Em: “Sex clothes expert.”
Christine: Sex clothes– exac– Thank you very much. As if selling lingerie was some sort of scandal, um, but it turns out like none of his subculture groups or friend groups had anything to do with his death. Um, he was just a victim of a random burglary and then someone who wanted to keep him quiet.
Em: Yeah.
Christine: So according to the video of Erik’s death, he was murdered at exactly 2:09 a.m. On the day of his funeral, Barry was helping remove Erik’s coffin from the hearse at Erik’s graveside, when an alarm on his phone went off in his pocket. And he discovered that this random alarm had somehow been set, not by him, to the exact time of 2:09 p.m.
Em: [gasps] Ooh.
Christine: And he said he took it as a message from Erik, quote, “I told you so.” Barry said he believed Erik was sending a sign that the universe is there.
Em: Wow.
Christine: Anyway, that’s the story of Erik Poltorak.
Em: That’s a heavy story.
Christine: It’s a doozy, huh?
Em: Yeah, of, of course leave it to people to, um, demonize someone who’s just like sex-positive and like–
Christine: And who’s been murdered.
Em: Like why are we shaming the person who doesn’t shame people when like what you should be caring about is the fact that he got fucking murdered? And like attacked twice. Like it’s not just murdered, but he was attacked, traumatized, killed.
Christine: Yes, yes, yes. And like completely innocent. And n-none of his friend groups had anything to do with it or any of his interests or culture– Yeah. It just, uh– It’s a good lesson, you know.
Em: Dang. Well, th– that’s not, um– Are there any other Halloween trick-or-treat shootings that you’re going to be telling us about?
Christine: [sighs] Honestly, there are a lot.
Em: Because it’s weird that there was two so recently.
Christine: I know. There were, there were other ones, and it’s so funny. Like when going through this, it– I– never occurred– Like the Halloween thing didn’t click right away–
Em: Mm.
Christine: –because it was like so much about aliens and about like– Um, it like– The, the actual day of the murder had to do with Halloween–
Em: Yeah.
Christine: –but like everything around it just felt like so unrelated that I don’t think it even occurred to me. [laughs] I really don’t think it even occurred to me. Um–
Em: It’s like that TikTok sound of like, uh, “If I had a nickel, I’d have two nickels”– “If I had a nickel for every time this happened, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that there’s two of them.” You know.
Christine: [laughs] Yeah, just like that. Just like that. Yep.
Em: Um, anyway, I guess we’re on to our– What is it called? Yappy Hour. Something like that.
Christine: Yes, we’re gonna talk about our Face– favorite Facebook groups.
Em: And when, when this comes out, we’ll– I think we’ll have been done with our winter tour.
Christine: [gasps] You’re right.
Em: Or our fall tour. Whatever it’s called.
Christine: I can’t believe it.
Em: And now we get a, a little break.
Christine: Sort of.
Em: A little break.
Christine: A little break, yes. But we’ll be back at it soon enough.
Em: Um, alright. I’ll see you at Yappy Hour I guess.
Christine: Okay. See you at Yappy Hour.
Em: And–
Christine: That’s–
Em: Why–
Christine: We–
Em: Drink.
