E453 Corporate Birthday Winks and Designated Pony Drivers

TOPICS: THE HELL FIRE CLUB, THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MARY BOYLE

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It’s Episode 453 and it’s time for us to kick off our spooky season! This week we’re headed to Ireland aka the birthplace of Halloween where Em first tells us about one of their most haunted buildings, The Hell Fire Club. Then Christine covers Ireland’s longest missing person case, the disappearance of Mary Boyle and the theories behind what happened. And we’re calling dibs on being the first time travel bloggers when it finally exists! …and that’s why we drink!

Photo Links:
The Hell Fire Club
Old Mickey Mouse Masks
Mary Boyle

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Transcript

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[intro music] 

Christine: Okay, really. I mean, really though. I think it looks good. [Christine adjusts her large red hooded sweatshirt, fixing her hair under the large hood. The sweatshirt is open in the front like a robe.] 

Em: It does. It– I mean, the– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: It was a compliment though. Like, you look like the cool kid in middle school. 

Christine: I do appreciate that. That’s the first time I’ve been called a cool anything. So, um– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –that’s– I’ve– I went to get like a sweatshirt, and then I thought, “Well, what if I get a hot flash in the middle of the podcast, and I can’t just be willy-nilly–“ You know that– when you take your sweatshirt off– There used to be this girl in high school, speaking of high school, where she took her sweatshirt off, and it like took her shirt off with it by accident, and then everyone saw her– 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: –boobs, and it was like, “Ha-ha.” And we talked about it for years. Like who gives a shit? Um, I feel like I was scared of that happening here on this platform. 

Em: I see. You needed a– 

Christine: So I’ve got a layer. 

Em: You needed a, you needed a layer but not a pullover ’cause you don’t want to accidentally flash. 

Christine: Thank you. You understand. It’s an easy access pullover. Sorry. Again, I’m saying all these really inappropriate things when I wear this. 

Em: I finally feel like we’re on the same page. I– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Finally, we have– We can share the same, same jargon. 

Em: You know, I r– I, um, I assume we’re already recording the episode. 

Christine: We are. Yeah, I guess– 

Em: ‘Kay, perfect. 

Christine: –’cause I decided so. [chuckles] Uncer– 

Em: I was gonna say– 

Christine: –unceremoniously. 

Em: I, uh, I won’t say who in case they’re listening, but I was hanging out with someone yesterday, and I thought we were on the same playing field. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And I thought we were like having like– 

Christine: And then you said, “Come in my pocket,” and they went, “Um…” [laughs] 

Em: Well, they opened up the conversation for like kind of like a not totally X-rated but certainly like an adult conversation. I thought I was like– I was like, “Oh, I’ll–“ 

Christine: You’re like, “There’s the o-opening– oppor–“ Oh god. Shut up, Christine. 

Em: No– [laughs] I wish you were there ’cause I would– Then they would have been outnumbered– 

Christine: What’s wrong with me? 

Em: –and I would have not felt like such a freak that– But– 

Christine: Apparently, I was there just like spiritually, fly on the wall. 

Em: Well, I was– I guess they were uh– I don’t know. I can’t– I don’t know how much I can say without like giving away the situation, but basically I thought we were both like kind of talking about personal experiences. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: We weren’t. And then I just kind of started throwing them out– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –and I was like, “Oh no.” [laughs] 

Christine: You’re like, “You know, that thing that happens,” and they’re like, “Uh…” 

Em: [laughs] Or like I thought they were gonna match my energy. I don’t know. I don’t know really what happened. The whole thing felt like a big headache by the end. I was like, “And now I’m just so embarrassed.” 

Christine: But I love when that– I mean, I hate when that happens. I love when it happens to other people, but I– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –I hate when that happens to me. But it also feels like a good story someday, you know? 

Em: Well, they were telling me about like, “Oh, I went on a date with this girl, and she was texting me all this stuff, and like I didn’t like– I didn’t know how to respond.” So I was like, “Oh, let me not give you advice–” 

Christine: “Here’s what you do.” [laughs] 

Em: No, no, no. [laughs] But I was like, “Oh, I can relate. Let me give you a story, blah, blah, blah.” 

Christine: Oh, sure. 

Em: And then they were– It just– It turned into them like– I thought I was h-hyping them up ’cause I was like, “Oh, cool. Like a cute girl is saying these things to you. Good for you.” 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And they were saying like, “Oh, it made me uncomfortable.” And I’m like, “Oh…” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And I was like– I was like gassing them up like, “This is awesome.” And they’re like, “I’m not into that.” And I went, “Oh, oh, oh, never mind. Me neither.” Okay. 

Christine: So in their mind, you were like, “Ah, you love being harassed. Hooray.” No– [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, it was like I– The energy was not understood. 

Christine: I mean, I guess if someone said I went on a date and they sent me these ni– these– I mean, it depends on, I guess, the content of the messages, but– 

Em: I mean, I felt, I felt like I was reading the room the right way. It sounded like, “Oh, she was really cute. We like going on all these dates, and then she started sending me this stuff.” and I was like, “Oh, cool. Okay, great.” 

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems like a natural progression, and then it’s like, “Nope.” 

Em: Yeah. And then he was like, “So anyway, I broke up with her ’cause it made me uncomfortable,” and I was like, “Oh!” 

Christine: Oops. [laughs] 

Em: “Whoops. Well, forget everything I just said for the last ten minutes.” 

Christine: Oh, well hopefully that person who sent the messages is listening, and now they’re like, “Oh, I see. I see what happened.” 

Em: [laughs] Well– 

Christine: And now maybe they’ll reach out to you, and it’ll be just like this circle of– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Well, actually, no. Don’t send– 

Em: Allison would love that, you know. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say, “Wait, don’t send anything– I’m– I might reach out kindly, not reach out sexily.” 

Em: I understand. 

Christine: And I want to be super clear on that. Okay, everyone? 

Em: I– Honestly, if I got sent something like that, I think it would just be a– You know, I’m so lucky for Allison sometimes because if I ever got caught in a silly little situation like that, I– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I’ve been with people who are, one, jealous; two, you know, get, you know, get weird about that stuff before– I don’t know. I’m just, I’m just very grateful for Allison ’cause I was even saying yesterday about them– 

Christine: Let’s talk more about them. Who is it? What are their names? 

Em: Um, oh, it’s never actually happened yet. [laughs] But, uh– 

Christine: What’s never happened yet? 

Em: Wait, what are we talking about? 

Christine: Oh, sorry. I wanted you to talk more about your exes who were super jealous. 

Em: Oh, I can talk about that forever. Uh– 

Christine: Give me all their names and information. We are all listening. 

Em: I am a little scared of them still, so I’m not going to say their names, but you know the names. 

Christine: I get that. 

Em: I’ve told you the names. Um– 

Christine: Oh, I know the names. Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um– 

Em: Uh, but any– No, I was, I was– Actually in the same conversation yesterday, it was with a straight person, and I was trying to explain the difference between straight and queer relationships. And then it led into like you know when you’re comfortable with someone and you trust each other like you– weirdly– This is like the weird way– wrong way to put it, but like get away with a lot because you are able to understand each other and like it’s not– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So I was saying like, “I feel like with Allison I can talk about my exes and I could– Like and it’s not a thing.” It’s like– Or I can– 

Christine: Right. Right, right, right. 

Em: I can go hang out with friends that are girls– 

Christine: It’s less of a loaded thing, right. 

Em: –and it’s not like a threat, you know, so. It just turned into, um, like a little Allison praise party. So Allison, if you’re listening, I said nice things about you. Your turn. 

Christine: You’re, you’re welcome. [laughs] Your turn. 

Em: [laughs] Anyway, how are you and Blaise? And how’s that sweet little birthday girl? 

Christine: Oh my gosh, thank you for asking. Um, she is delighted. She’s so kind and special, and I love her. And she turned four! 

Em: I can’t believe you have a whole four-year-old. 

Christine: A child. And she picked a song, um, for class to sing, and they sang um– They were gonna do “Shake It Off” by Taylor Swift, but then her other friend had a birthday, and he picked, um, “Let It Go” in– from Frozen. So she’s like, “Well, now I want to do ‘Let It Go.’” 

Em: I get it. 

Christine: The problem is– It wasn’t a problem, but she did take over the entire– [chuckles] Her teacher sent the video and said, “Look, how sweet. Uh, Leona was so excited on like her friend’s birthday.” And then it’s literally this kid going, “Leona, you’re being too loud. It’s my birthday song.” 

Em: Aww… 

Christine: [laughs] And she sang like every word and like belted it out. And– 

Em: And you know what? I see both sides clearly on that. 

Christine: I know. That’s where I was like, “Oh god.” So I was like, “I’m not gon–” My, my brother was like, “Christine, don’t do– don’t– Like just leave it alone.” 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: And I was like, “You’re right. You’re right. You’re right.” Um– 

Em: He won’t, he won’t remember. The friend won’t remember. It’s fine. 

Christine: Yeah. And by the way, the next day, he made her a drawing of a bunch of– Actually, it was just a swirl. And Leona said, “I drew him a bunch of pizzas, but he drew me a swirl. I guess that’s okay.” Um, so I think they’re fine. 

Em: I think that was like their “amicle” [amicable] handshake on the matter. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. 

Em: So– Anyway, good for them. 

Christine: And yeah, she’s just having the best time. And like– 

Em: What, what did you do for her birthday? Was there a party? Was there a cake? Was there– What presents did you get her? Was there a theme? 

Christine: So her theme is Gabby’s Dollhouse. We took her to– We took her and her best friend, Haley, to the Gabby’s Dollhouse movie. 

Em: Cute. 

Christine: We took her out of school early to take her. We got– 

Em: [gasps] Was that her first time getting to leave school early? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: That’s so cool. 

Christine: And she was like, “I don’t wanna leave school.” And I was like, [chuckles] “Oh, someday.” 

Em: Oh. Why am I getting all the messages mixed up these days? C– 

Christine: No, you’re right. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, you’re right in my opinion. I just think at age three, they’re just singing Frozen all day. So, apparently, it’s a fun time. 

Em: Sure. That sounds– I wouldn’t want to leave either. 

Christine: I know. Sorry, I’m also PMSing, and I have a ton of candy here. Um, I will stop eating it, everyone, okay? Sorry. 

Em: Get your last handful in. You gotta care–. 

Christine: Got my last handful in. Um– 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: Yeah, just– 

Em: So what was the cake? What was the presents? 

Christine: So this weekend we’re doing a– like a party for her classmates and her friends. And so that’ll be more of like the big to-do, but she’s getting like a Gabby’s Dollhouse cake. It’s gonna be super cute. Um, got little like crafts for all the kids. And then yesterday, my mom and Tim came over, and we opened presents, and it was super sweet. She just was like– First of all, well, we went to the movies, and, uh, we were the only people there. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And so I was like, “Oh my god, somebody take a picture.” ’Cause we also took Haley and her mom. So like, “Someone take a picture, so that one day we could say like, ‘We rented out the entire theater for you,’” you know. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: But it was just an empty-ass theater. But they ran around the theater and sang all the songs, and it was really cute. 

Em: That actually worked out so well if they’re allowed to run around and everything too. 

[Christine’s video fades to black] 

Christine: It– Jack, cut out where– 

Em: Was that your fucking foot? 

[Christine’s video fades back in] 

Christine: Jack– [laughs] Jack, cut out my foot. 

Em: [laughs] Was that– 

Christine: [laughs] Jack, cut out my foot. 

Em: Did you just do a burlesque move over my head? Did I just go, “Whoa.” [Em ducks down as if something passed over their head] 

Christine: The thing is it wasn’t even over your head. It was directly through your face. Just like– [makes impact sound as she mimes slapping Em’s face] 

Em: Oh, sorry. Hang on. [groans as they whip their face to the side as if slapped] 

Christine: Yeah, it was mostly like– Giovani. Sorry, he’s driving me nuts, and so I’m trying to shoo him, but, um, instead I just gave you a nice show, and I’m sorry, Jack, for you especially because you have to cut that out. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh– 

Em: Please don’t. Please don’t. 

Christine: You can cut out the conversation, but nobody needs to pause and freeze frame on the bottom of my foot. Um– [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’ve been– I’ve not had a– 

Em: You– You’re gonna be rated again on that stupid foot celebrity w-website. 

Christine: [laughs] Well, no, I’m not ready for it. That’s– I need a pedicure first before we take like the official photo, you know. 

Em: Uh-huh. What’s it–? WikiFoot? Is that what it’s called? 

Christine: Oh, yeah. WikiFeet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um– 

Em: I’m not on WikiFeet, but you have like a great rating, I think. 

Christine: Well, it’s because I wear a lot of like sandals, and so then people like zoom in. You know what I mean? 

Em: Mm, yeah. 

Christine: So, that’s the only reason. And by the way, I have a terrible rating on there ’cause the pictures they picked are just not good ones. And I’m like, “Just hold on, let me get a pedicure first.” 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: But then now I’m like, “Oh, I can’t just post a picture of my feet,” right? ’Cause then it’s like, “Well, now I’m skewing it on purpose,” which like– Anyway. 

Em: I’m sure someone has taken a picture of their own foot and put it on WikiFoot to up their ratings. 

Christine: Yeah, I’m sure there’ll be like, “User number–“ and it’ll be like four– “I’m-always-crazy-444 has uploaded content to–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like I mean, that would be so unhinged. But someday I’ll swing my foot delicately through the screen, and someone can take a picture. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And that means I’ve taken a– I’ve gotten a pedicure. 

Em: Would you, would you do it slowly like this? “We all know you want the freeze-frame.” [Em passes their hand slowly across the screen] 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then it’s like, “Oh, look at–“ There goes Em with their fucking perfectly manicured fingernails, speaking of. 

Em: Think so? No? [holds their hand up to the camera] 

Christine: Maybe you’ll be on “WikiHands.” 

Em: “WikiFings”. [laughs] 

Christine: WikiFings. Oh, that’s horrible. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, I– I bet you’d get an A though. 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: And that is a backhanded compliment. Um, a “back-fingered” compliment. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Okay. Uh, what the point? What’s the point? 

Em: What’s the– your daughter’s cake flavor? 

Christine: Oh, chocolate. 

Em: Okay. 

[laughs] 

Christine: Oh, and then she was really sweet ’cause we were opening gifts, and she kept saying– She’d say, “Who is this from?” And we’d all be like– like before she opened it, and she’d wink at them ’cause that’s her new thing. She winks at everyone. So she’d like wink at Tim, and then she’d open it, and she’d go, “Thank you, Tim.” And it was like, “Who are you?” It was just so cute ’cause– 

Em: What a corporate little lady. 

Christine: She was like, “Thank you, Tim.” And then she opened it, and then when she actually did get– She said that to everybody, but then when she opened Tim’s gift, she just looked at it and said, [gasps] “I think this may be the best one yet.” And we were like, “Okay.” [laughs] 

Em: So– [laughs] 

Christine: And it was her favorite. 

Em: Someone learned being diplomatic. [laughs] 

Christine: No, it was her favorite. It was her favorite game. 

Em: Oh, oh! 

Christine: She got a Stomp Rocket. 

Em: Oh, shit. Those are cool. 

Christine: And for some reason, she just looked at it and went, “I think this one wins the day.” And we were like, “Oh?” 

Em: For a second, I, I thought you meant you– she was saying that to every single person. And I was like– 

Christine: Oh no. Oh my god, that– 

Em: –“What a, what a little people pleaser.” 

Christine: No, no. Thankfully, she’s not a people pleaser, uh, very ar– She’s actually very ardently not a people pleaser, which is why when she says something nice, it like really means something, you know. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like we don’t make her say, “please” and “thank you” and stuff really. She just kind of knows when it’s appropriate. Um, but yeah, she would be like– And then she was genuinely just really a sweetheart about it and was like, “I can’t believe I got presents, and people sang to me.” 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: Like she just feels very special, so. Um, it’s been a, it’s been a good time. And we got her, uh, her own little bike to learn how to ride a bike, so. 

Em: Cute. 

Christine: She’s very excited about that. But yeah, so it was a good day. But we’re doing a party this weekend. Uh, talk to me in five days when I’ve had like 12 children in my house. Um– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And I may not say the same story, but so far it’s been good. 

Em: Good. Is that why you drink this weekend or this week? Or what’s, uh, gonna–? 

Christine: It is. And I– Also Blaise has started buying me a constant rotation of mini D. Peppies. [opens a can] 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: So, um, that’s what I drink today. 

Em: That’s a good man. 

Christine: What do you drink and why? 

Em: I drink– I, you know, I had it sent out. Every time I do. Um, it’s my own special little thing. Um– 

Christine: So did I do–– So did I, but Blaise is just the like send out guy, you know. 

Em: The, the, the shopkeep. Yeah. 

Christine: That’s right. 

Em: Um, I had– I have my usual little iced tea. 

Christine: Nice. 

Em: And– Oh, there– I feel like there’s no reason to drink and so many reasons to drink. 

Christine: I know, right? Oh my god. It’s like I have so many things I feel like I want to talk about, but then I’m like, “Oh, I should talk about that, but I should mention this.” I don’t know. 

Em: Hm. What to–? What’s just– Here, give me– Throw a topic at me, and I’ll find– 

Christine: I’m trying to think, I’m trying to think of a good little icebreaker. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: Um, well, how’s my godson? “Dogson”? 

Em: He– He’s good. He, um, uh– You missed this ’cause because this was when we had a, a little Paraween special, and Morgan– 

Christine: Mm! 

Em: –from Creeps and Crimes was on. But one of the reasons that I drank recently was because it was his first time being boarded, and I did not do the like– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. [gasps] 

Em: –the smart what you should do, warm them up by letting them stay for one night only. I like just– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: He had never left the house since he’s been here, and then he spent ten days there, and I was terrified the whole time he thought he was re-homed. 

Christine: Oh jeez. 

Em: Yeah. So I felt very guilty about that. Um, and so– Not that guilty ’cause I boarded him again. So um, he’s– 

Christine: Oh. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] The reas– 

Christine: Is he there now? 

Em: No. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: The reason I drink is because I’m about to go pick him up after this. Um, ’cause he, he spent the night there, and, uh, hopefully he gets it– 

Christine: You, you did the opposite way. You’re like, “Do like two weeks there, and then you do one night.” 

Em: I– Yeah, we do it the hard way, and then you figure it out. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –but he– I’m picking him up afterwards, and I’m so excited to see my little minkies. 

Christine: Oh, it’s gonna be nice. It’s gonna be happy reunion. 

Em: And, uh, yeah, so I’m gonna see him. And then next week, I’m going to Florida for my grandma’s 90th– 

Christine: Whoo-hoo! 

Em: –which is wild. And it’s turning into like a, a whole thing, which like– 

Christine: Of course it is. 

Em: Of course it is because it’s– 

Christine: I can’t wait to hear all the details. 

Em: It’s three generations of me, and it’s a themed party, so. 

Christine: I know. God, what a nightmare, guys. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Let’s think about this. I– Linda, Em, Grandma. Man, it’s gonna be fun. 

Em: Uh, so– And I’ve seen my mom way too damn much recently. I saw her– 

Christine: Have you? 

Em: Dude, I’ve literally been seeing her on a weekly basis. 

Christine: [laughs] Just as she intended. 

Em: I, [laughs] I know. It’s like she’s plotting. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: ’Cause I, I just went to Philly and Delaware. I knocked Delaware off my 50 states, and my mom, uh, invited herself. 

Christine: Of course. 

Em: I think I– I think I said something like, “Oh, you could come.” And then she really rolled like– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I didn’t know it was going to ha– And then it became a thing where like now we’re planning, and so– I saw her, and then that was last week. And then yesterday, I took my very first back-to-back red-eyes to Pittsburgh for the day. So I saw her there, and then I see her next week for Florida. And it’s just, um, a lot of Linda. So– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –maybe that’s why I drink. But, uh, the wh– October Florida extravaganza is becoming a whole thing. Because since I haven’t seen Allison, she’s coming to Florida to see my– for my grandma’s birthday. 

Christine: Oh, so you’re gonna see each other in Florida? 

Em: I’ll finally see the woman that claims to love me, yes. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: And uh, and because we’re gonna be in Orlando and I haven’t seen her all of spooky season, which, you know, is like a crime for us, and October is her birthday month, we’ve decided that we’re gonna see Grandma, and then we’re gonna extend it and do Halloween stuff in Florida. It’s just become a whole thing. So– 

Christine: Oh my god. So– Okay. Wow. So I wonder if Linda had some hand in sending Allison away– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –so that you would start like spending– 

Em: I’d be freer for her? 

Christine: Right? Like you’d spend more time on the East Coast, and Linda could just “conveniently” show up, you know? 

Em: I know. I know. I– You know, um– I don’t put– 

Christine: Could they be in cahoots? 

Em: And you could say them– 

Christine: That was supposed to be in my, uh, my, my Dateline voice, but I’m just ima– 

Em: [laughs] I thought you were gonna say, “That should have stayed in my head, but it didn’t.” [laughs] 

Christine: That also should have stayed in my head, but, uh, we can put some– We can fix it in post. 

Em: I love it. I love it. Um, you could say probably any ridiculous conspiracy theory about my mom and there is a l– a line of truth. 

Christine: It’s probably true. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] There’s a– 

Christine: Yeah, there is a– [laughs] There’s a grain of truth in what– every conspiracy theory about Linda. 

Em: So anyway, she’s why I drink this week. You are welcome, Mom. Um– 

Christine: Wow, wow. That’ll be fun though. Florida will be fun. Yes? 

Em: It, it will, it will be fun. I’m just stressed ’cause I haven’t planned for it yet. So I just don’t know what it looks like. 

Christine: Uh-huh, Uh-huh. 

Em: But, I mean, I’ll figure it out. I always figure it out. 

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Em’s Story – The Hellfire Club

Em: So that’s why I drink. Um, and is this our first– I don’t remember the calendar, but I think this might be our first episode together in October. Maybe last week?

Christine: Yes. 

Em: I don’t know. But I know um– 

Christine: [laughs] I have no idea. 

Em: Morgan got the first week of October with me. 

Christine: Oh, then this is– 

Em: So this might be our first one together. In which case, happy spooky season. 

Christine: Hey, I can’t believe it. Paraween is so fun. 

Em: And shout-out to Eva for even coming up with that whole thing. 

Christine: My god. 

Em: Like I can’t imagine the headaches that have come out of ha-having to align six different shows with each other. So– 

Christine: I don’t know how she just like whipped it up, but she really, I feel like, is thriving as producer across multiple shows, you know. 

Em: I think– Yeah, I think she’s– I hope she’s loving it. Um, otherwise, big ask. Um– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –but thank you so much. Um, and yeah, I– Because this is, uh, maybe our first s– episode together in October– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I’m taking it upon myself to treat it as that at least. Um, I was like, “Well, I should kick off the Halloween stuff now, right?” 

Christine: You better. 

Em: So my story today, I was like– I’m, I’m really– If you guys could write in the comments, um, suggestions for future Halloween episodes, that would be sick because I’m starting to panic where I’m like, “There’s only so many ways I can talk about Dracula.” You know what I’m saying? Or like– 

Christine: [laughs] Right, like the same like– Yeah, like, uh, where the jack-o’-lantern comes from and stuff that we tr– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Like I, I keep wanting to do like Halloween focused, but I like at some point will run out. And I even typed in on Google– I was like looking for inspiration. I typed in like “haunted candy factory,” and apparently that’s an episode of Scooby-Doo. So I was like, “Well–“ 

Christine: Oh, LOL, we could do a watch of that. But I also feel like it’s hard when– Sorry. I also feel like it’s hard when, um, we do spoo– we do Halloween-themed things every single week. [laughs] 

Em: I know. I know. 

Christine: It’s like there’s a limited amount of like extra Halloweeny, yeah. 

Em: Super duper Halloween. Yeah. I’m like, “Witches?” And I’m like, “Well, I don’t wanna co–“ I mean, I guess I could cover like, uh, you know, Samhain or something, but I was like, “That feels really deep, and I’m, I’m so nervous to do something like that ’cause I don’t want–“ 

Christine: And we already, we already did like so many witch episodes with like a real team of researchers at par– uh, uh, like of like five, six researchers who did like rounds of fact-checking. 

Em: For Rituals, yeah. 

Christine: For Rituals, yeah. So it’s like daunting to do. Um– 

Em: It is. It’s– And I don’t wanna upset any of the witches certainly. I certainly don’t wanna piss off witches, you know what I’m saying? 

Christine: I do. Let’s just see what– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Let’s, let’s fucking find out, you know? 

Em: Well, so anyway, I was like, “Why don’t I– Instead of covering like a full-ass pagan festival, why don’t I just like look up the origins, not just–“ Hang on with me, ‘cause I know I’ve done this before. The origins of Halloween: that was kind of my inspiration, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. And I was like, “Why don’t I just pick a haunted location from the, the very beginnings of Halloween?” Which is, um– 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: I don’t know if you know this. I mean, I’ve said pagan and I think Celtic already, but Ireland is technically the birthplace of Halloween. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And so I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna find somewhere in Ireland, and that’s, that’s gonna be my, my first um–“ 

Christine: I love that. 

Em: “–my first contribution to spooky season.” So I was like, “What’s the most haunted place in, in Ireland?” And I don’t know if it’s the most haunted, but certainly the most notorious is the, the Hellfire Club. So that’s what I’m gonna talk about today. 

Christine: [gasps] That’s a good one. 

Em: You know, I was expecting– I don’t know. I don’t think I did bad research, but I was expecting this to be like triple the amount of research as usual. ‘Cause also anytime something is older than like a hundred years, I expect there to be like so much more history on it. 

Christine: They have pamphlets and stuff from back then, you know. 

Em: And a lot of it– I was expecting like a, a lot more scandal, but every– everything I looked up, it kind of was just focusing on a few stories. So we’re just gonna get a f– I guess, a few stories, and then I have a little special thing for you at the end, so. 

Christine: Ooh! Okay. 

Em: So Hellfire Club, fun fact, is actually called Montpelier Hill. 

Christine: Oh, did not know that. 

Em: Um, that’s like the location where Hellfire Club is, but it’s just become known as the Hellfire Club. But fun fact, Montpelier Hill. Excuse me. So before I tell you about the actual location of this hellfire club, which is in Dublin, um, I wanted to tell you that in 1719, the very, very first hellfire club– ‘Cause it’s not– There’s not just one. It’s one of many hellfire clubs. 

Christine: Oh, it’s a franchise. 

Em: It is. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: It’s like a, it’s like a, like a fraternity essentially. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, the very first hellfire club was founded in England, uh, in 1719, and it was founded by this guy named Philip. He was the Duke of Wharton, but I prefer calling him, “this dude called Philip.” Um– 

Christine: Of Whar-Wharton. I feel like “Whart–“ You could, you could make some jokes there, but I don’t have the energy for it. 

Em: You could. Witchy. It– 

Christine: Yeah, true. 

Em: It’s somewhere. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, but so the Duke of Wharton was the founder of the very first hellfire club in England. And immediately I have things to clarify for people because when I was reading up on these things, I kept getting confused. So I broke it up for everybody else, so you can be that “well, actually” guy later. 

Christine: Oo-ooh! 

Em: Um, a lot of people were saying, “Oh, Duke– the Duke of Wharton isn’t the founder. It’s actually this one guy named, uh, Dashwood,” which great name. 

Christine: Whoa. That was actually his actual name ‘cause we kept making fun of Wharton and stuff, and he’s like “Uh, no, that’s not me anymore.” 

Em: [laughs] No, Dashwood is his last name, but I’m keep– I’m just sticking with that– 

Christine: It’s good. 

Em: –so it’s easier to swallow. But, uh, this– A lot of people have said the founder is actually this guy named Dashwood. He is not the founder, but he founded a similar club to the Hellfire Club, and on top of that, he later opened his own charter of the hellfire club. So a lot of peo– And he– It actually is like one of the more famous hellfire clubs out there because they were like up to some real tomfoolery over there. So because his name is involved in hellfire club history and he founded his own club with similar beliefs, they think that he’s the founder. He is not. 

Christine: Ah. Okay, okay. 

Em: J– Forget the name Dashwood. He– 

Christine: Fake news. Fake news. 

Em: Fake news. Um, the actual guy is this guy Phil, Duke of Warden. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: Another, uh, thing that I wanted to say that feels confusing in my head, but maybe I’m just sleep deprived from my back-to-back red-eyes. Um, the H– the Hellfire Club that everybody knows, the one I’m talking about today as a topic, is haunted, and it is in Dublin. It is not in England, even though the f– the founder is from England and founded a club in England. 

Christine: Okay. Got it. 

Em: And, and I, I only say that because it’s a weird coincidence, [chuckles] but even though h– the Duke of Wharton is from England and he founded the Hellfire Club in England, he also actually at one point owned this property before he ever– before the Hellfire Club. 

Christine: Oh, so– Oh, and then they later built a hellfire club on the property. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: I’m sure the guy who ends up buying it, he was like “Oh, well, you know, the founder of the Hellfire Club actually used to live here. Maybe I should open a hellfire club and make this a chapter.” Something like that. 

Christine: Feel like it would be the opposite, where he would be like, “I wanna open a hellfire club. Oh, there’s a property that he used to own in the area.” 

Em: Interesting. Probably that. 

Christine: Right? Like I don’t know. I feel like it’s a hard reach to be like, “I’ll buy this random property. And then what should I put here?” 

Em: You’re right. That– 

Christine: [laughs] “How ‘bout a hellfire–“ I mean, maybe. 

Em: That feels more like how my brain would go where it’s like– 

Christine: That’s how– Yeah, that’s how like our sick brains would do it. 

Em: Like– 

Christine: We’d get the property first. But, yeah– 

Em: For example, like people in uh– who used to film in vaudeville movies– like vaudeville actors used to, uh, rent out here. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And one of my first thoughts was, “Well, now I’m gonna make this like a vaudeville-themed house.” Like that was like my first like– ’Cause I wanted to like honor it. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: You’re totally right. Your way is much more likely. 

Christine: I mean, I don’t know that I’m right, but it’s, it’s just a guess that normal people usually– Business people have a different brain than I do and you do. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] You are very on to something. Well, I only say that because since the founder’s from England and there– the original club was in England, but he lived here where there was a club, people think that this is the founding one and that’s why it’s so famous. 

Christine: Oh, that’s the confusion. Right. 

Em: So anyway, I don’t mean to like beat a dead horse, but I just wanted to make sure everyone gets it that this is not the OG, but the OG founder did live here. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, okay. So now knowing that, uh, he happened to live here, he was known to have all of his ac–aristocrat friends uh– And basically when they opened the original hellfire club in England, it was called the Hellfire Club, I think, as a dig to the Christians, which immediately of course– 

Christine: Of course. 

Em: –now we can see how this becomes this demonic place, right? 

Christine: Uh-huh. Yeah. 

Em: Um, so he was known for his lewd behavior. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Um, the word “debauchery” was on every fucking website. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Just vague lewd behavior. And him and all of his social elite friends who were also into lewd behavior, they created this group because um, this was during a wave of Christianity in England, and they kind of put this club together to openly mock the church. 

Christine: Oh, good. That’s gonna go well. 

Em: The first one– The first club, I think, was actually– I don’t know what the right word is, but like forced to shut down by the king. 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: So, um, anyway, so they started this club. They– It’s said at least– I don’t know how true any of this is because everything had the word “allegedly” in front of it– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –but we’re gonna, we’re gonna roll with it. Um, that this club was originally open because they wanted to discuss science and philosophy, and it was like kinda during the Enlightenment era, or that’s what they wanted to hold on to, and they questioned society’s rules. It was not a fun place for those who wanted to be super duper religious. So while the Duke of Wharton owned this Dublin site that was not, at the time, a hellfire club, um, he ended up selling the property in 1725 to a very wealthy Speaker of the Irish House of Commons. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: And his name was William Conolly. He bought this area, especiall– like Montpelier Hill. It’s, um, in the Dublin Mountains. It’s kind of isolated, which makes it s– kind of spooky– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and no witnesses. Um. 

Christine: Ah! 

Em: So he built this area up because he wanted a hunting lodge, as all wealthy politicians do. 

Christine: Yeah, and where are you gonna put it? 

Em: Where are you gonna put it? In the woods. That makes sense. 

Christine: [chuckles] Obviously. 

Em: So immediately kind of fucked up. He– And by kinda, I mean totally. He began building on uh– I’m just gonna call it sacred land. 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: It’s where there were already memorial sites made of stones. 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: There was a 5,000-year-old Neolithic passage grave, which are literal tombs. Um– 

Christine: How many years old? 

Em: 5,000. 

Christine: What is wrong with people? There– He’s like, “Well, but I don’t–“ Okay. Whatever. 

Em: And he was like, “This is the spot for me.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Not only did he destroy most of this area for his own construction, but then he even, which I’m sure felt condescending to the ghosts, used those stones from the memorials for parts of his fireplace. 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: Yeah. Um, fun fact, the– this part is for sure true that these things exist– that these, uh, passage graves existed. They have even been uncovered bit by bit over time. As recently as 2016, they’re finding– 

Christine: In his fucking fireplace? 

Em: Probably. I mean, all– 

Christine: [laughs] Like this has like– 

Em: Can’t you just carbon date a rock, you know? 

Christine: Yeah, right? I mean, it’s made of carbon, right? Isn’t that the point? [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, that’s a great point. Maybe they didn’t have to dig up at all. They just kinda grabbed a brick from his fireplace as a to– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Anyway, they have dug up and found pieces of, of the old graves. But, um, soon after the construction, the roof of his new lodge blew off in a storm. So it wasn’t built well, first of all. 

Christine: Oh no. Yeah, really. 

Em: The locals immediately took it as these are the pissed-off spirits getting back at you for desecrating their land. 

Christine: I could understand that. I would– If somebody at the pub like gave me a few talking points, I’d be like, “I believe it.” 

Em: Yeah, sure. I would too. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, so basically with the connection of this hedonistic anti-Christian Duke of Wharton living here– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –plus desecrated land, plus angry spirits, immediately this place has like a cursed kind of feel to it. And after William Connelly died, the lodge was then sold or leased, I’m not sure, to the members of people who wanted to open a hellfire club in Ireland. So in 1735, the Irish Hellfire Club was founded– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –by James Worsdale and Richard Parsons. Richard Parsons was known for dabbling in black magic. Again, we have no evidence of this, but he was apparently already known for that. 

Christine: [laughs] I love that even like– They like claim the black magic thing, but then it’s always like “they’re dabbling” or like “they’re entrenched in it.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And that’s like how do they determine like the word– the level of how dramatic we’re gonna sound about it? But like a quick dabble doesn’t sound as dramatic, you know? 

Em: In, in which case, like I wonder what the fine line between dabble and entrenched is because some people might think that we’re entrenched in– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: –that stuff. And maybe– 

Christine: And we’re just scared of the witches, right? Like I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: You can– Yeah. 

Em: Maybe they– one of them just was like, “I’ve heard of a Ouija board,” and they went, “Oh, shit. You’re entrenched in this black magic,” you know? 

Christine: “He’s, he’s not a dabbler anymore.” 

Em: [laughs] So um, yes. So uh, Richard Parsons and James Worsdale – they’re the two people who ended up getting this place after William Connelly died. Again, he did not have a hellfire club either. He just wanted this for his hunting lodge, and he was desecrating land. Cool. Um, then these two guys end up moving in. They wanna move their Hellfire Club chapter into this building. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Imagine if they f– I– This is where, again, we go back to your point of like one of them must have heard that the founder of the Hellfire Club lived here. Or they got there, and they went, “No fucking way.” Like– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or that, or that, and they were like, “Oh, there– This is a sign from the universe.” That’s how we would be. Yeah. 

Em: I, I mean if you’re already talking about like occult, it’s like, “Oh!” 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: “It’s the cosmic–“ So there were other members, who I’m going to discuss later, that joined, and they definitely– If the reputation was already kind of yucky, they really soured it. So I’m just– 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: I’m just gonna say their names now. 

Christine: I didn’t mean to sound so excited about that– 

Em: [laughs] You’re good. 

Christine: –but I’m curious. [laughs] 

Em: Sure. Um, so there’s one guy named Lord Santry, and another named Simon Lutrell. I’ll say their names again later, but they become some of the early members of this club once it’s opened in this area. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: I’ll bring it up again later, but they, they are no-gooders, I’ll tell you that. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, so it’s debated how often the lodge was – and I’m calling it a lodge from what it previously was – but it’s debated how often this building was actually used for Hellfire Club meetings. Um, some believe that most of the meetings were actually done closer into town so people could get to them faster. You know what I’m saying? Like it– e-easier access? 

Christine: I mean, I get that, right? You don’t want like a huge– Then you have to carpool, and it’s– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah, by horse. It’s like, “My, my horse can only carry two.” [laughs] 

Christine: By horse. I mean, “horsepool.” Is that “horsepulling”? I don’t know. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Uh, there was– 

Christine: Like pulling? No, pooling. Pooling? Pulling? 

Em: A cart– a “cartpool”? Was that what it would be? 

Christine: Cartpool. Holy shit. 

Em: A “wagonpool.” Wagonpool. 

Christine: A wagonpool. 

Em: Wow. Can you imagine when the hor– You know how like if my dog hears T-R-E-A-T, goes nuts, right? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Imagine the, the fucking sigh that comes out of a horse after he hears the word cartpool enough, and he’s like “Fuck me. This is gonna be such a bad day.” 

Christine: He’s like, “Not a– This drive is gonna be s– This drive to the Hellfire Club and back is gonna be so fucking boring and long.” 

Em: “And they’re all gonna be drunk by the end. It’s just gonna– “ 

Christine: Oh, imagine. 

Em: Just the horse is the DD. It’s miserable. It– [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Up a hill. 

Christine: It’s the, it’s the DH, the DH – deer horse drivin’, driving us home. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] The, the DP: the designated pony. 

Christine: The designated pony. Uh-oh. DP. Yeah, okay. “Well–“ 

Em: Mm-hmm? 

Christine: “–we got drunk at the party. Don’t worry about it.” 

Em: [laughs] “We’ve got the DP out back. Don’t worry.” Um– 

Christine: Whoa. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: What? 

Em: I don’t know. I don’t know anymore, Christine. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: I’m so sleepy. Okay. So they don’t know– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: They don’t know where the fucking meetings happen sometimes. Either it was on the hill or– 

Christine: Not out back. Don’t look out back. Something’s happening back there. You don’t want, you don’t want to know. 

Em: [laughs] Uh, there was a tow– There was a pub in town called Eagle Tavern. Um, and I guess this tavern– I would love to do a– They can’t anymore, I’m sure, but if time travel ever exists, I hope one of the first documentaries they cover is, is on Eagle Tavern because it sounds like this was the pub that welcomed all meetings for secret societies. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Like they had to know the craziest shit going on over there. 

Christine: [groans] To be a fly in the wall. 

Em: Eagle Tavern. Um, I’m just gonna say the Freemasons, because the other ones I’ve never heard of. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of them either, but they were– 

Christine: That’s how secret they are. 

Em: [laughs] Don’t even with me right now. 

Christine: Super secret. [laughs] 

Em: But, uh, there were many clubs that– or secret societies, and they all, for some reason, would meet at Eagle Tavern. So that then brings in the how true is even– like is it because this place was spooky and secretive and hosted secret meetings that people think– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –maybe some of the meetings were hosted here? I mean, it would make sense that they would, you know, reserve time there if it’s easier for people to get to. But also you bought a whole ass house in the middle of the woods where you can do all the secret shit you want. You– I don’t know. I don’t know which is true. 

Christine: Yeah, and how are they like– And this is maybe too in the weeds, but like how are they even organizing this so that there’s not a double crossover of– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –like a double booking because uh– Imagine you walk in on the wrong secret society, like now what? Now– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Now must they kill you? Like I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. It’s like are there– like is there like a– 

Christine: They can’t be that secret if they’re just like coming and going from the same place? 

Em: That’s a good point. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: Imagine if they’re all actually just the same secret society but just different people coming at different times, and you would never know. 

Christine: [gasps] Oh, that could be too. 

Em: They’re just all different levels. It’s like “Oh, I saw a ritual. I don’t know if it’s mine or the others or what.” 

Christine: Ohh… The DP out back. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Only the horse knows. Um– 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: So, uh, where are we? Okay. So the Eagle Tavern may or may not have been where most of the meetings were held, if they were not actually meeting on Montpelier Hill. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: But the perk of hosting activities in Montpelie– Montpelier Hill, like I said, is that because it was isolated, they could get away with a lot more. There was no witnesses. There’s very few accounts, especially after hundreds of years. So we really don’t know what happened. It could have been them playing fucking checkers, and that’s it. 

Christine: Right, right, right. And just drinking and being idiots, yeah. 

Em: And just talking about how atheism rocks or something. I don’t know. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: But like other hellfire clubs, they were, um, uh– like the hellfire clubs that came before them, the one that was founded in England, this one in Dublin was very outspoken against Christianity. They were full of high society members who spent their days indulging themselves. Um, so they were drinking, gambling, especially playing cards on Sunday. They would hold um– 

Christine: [singing dramatic musical sting] ♪ Dun dun dun ♪♪ 

Em: –black masses. They would uh– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I’m– There was a lot of hinting at sexual debauchery uh– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –with like sex workers, etc. They were also known to eat “Ghost Pie,” which is– 

Christine: What? 

Em: –apparently pigeon pie. 

Christine: Oh. [laughs] 

Em: I know. 

Christine: Why do they call it that? 

Em: Because it’s interesting all of a sudden. You didn’t give a shit about pigeon pie. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, but now I don’t either again, you know. Like– 

Em: I did– 

Christine: –put something else in it. 

Em: Remember I had– I was so hyperfixated on that one like English heritage YouTube website where that woman would do cooking recipes from like the 1800s? 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: She did an, an excellent pigeon pie. 

Christine: She did? 

Em: I remember that. 

Christine: How do you know it’s excellent? Did you try it? 

Em: Um, it’s excellent because the actor was brave as shit to pick up a pigeon and make a pie out of it. And– 

Christine: Yeah. I mean, yeah, that’s pretty impressive. A b– Uh, s– 

Em: I’ll tell you what wasn’t excellent– 

Christine: Some people ate pigeon in Egypt. 

Em: Oh, like today? Like these days? 

Christine: I mean, somebody on my trip did. 

Em: Oh, how was that as a viewer? 

Christine: They said it was delicious. I didn’t eat a– I didn’t watch it. Don’t worry, I wasn’t there. 

Em: Okay. I couldn’t do that. I don’t think. I, I know I couldn’t. Um– 

Christine: It’s, it’s like a– I mean, I think it’s just pretty much like a normal bird, but I also don’t eat normal birds, so I feel like I’m already out of the count. 

Em: I, as someone who regularly eats cow and chicken, the second I am reminded at all that it’s an animal, I’m violently disgusted with myself for like three minutes– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –and then I keep going. But, um– 

Christine: Oh, oh, okay. I’ve never witnessed you be violently disgusted with yourself while eating. But– 

Em: It’s usually those moments of– those three minutes at a time where I’m really quiet in between my chicken wings. [laughs] Um– 

Christine: Oh, and you just like say a little prayer for the little chicky. 

Em: Well, so, so I do know, um, from that video that I saw that pigeon pie is actually, uh, very easy to make, fun fact. But it was– It looked gross because they, um, decorated it with the pigeon feet. 

Christine: Heh? 

Em: I hope that that was just a creative choice that an actor in today’s world did– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: Because I couldn’t imagine that being served to me on a table, and I’m like, “Bring it over.” 

Christine: I’m sure. I’m sure people have done it because otherwise like how do you know it’s pigeon? You know that proves that that’s what’s in there, not just like something random. 

Em: Making, making a lot of good points today. 

Christine: Thank you so much. 

Em: Um, here's another one, which I could see even 20 years ago unfortunately this being funny, but it’s not today. Apparently, since they were so like anti-Christian, they would like to play pranks on Christians and clergymen. And one time like they– Their idea of pranking clergymen was inviting them over and then flashing them. 

Christine: [scoffs] 

Em: That’s assault. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, but I do see how like two generations ago that would have been the funniest thing that someone could have come up with. 

Christine: I mean, like but if you’re inviting people to Hellfire Club, what do the, what do the clergy expect? Like a fucking prayer circle, you know? I mean, I’m– 

Em: That’s fair. And also like they– [chuckles] I mean, all it did was just perpetuate that they are like hedonists, right? Like “Oh, they do everything in the nude! And they weren’t afraid to show us their weenies!” 

Christine: Oh, yeah. They just show their butts or whatever. Yeah. 

Em: Well, anyway, they did not like that. Let’s just– They were just digging, digging their own line through the sand. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, it seems like they wanted to prove a point. [laughs] 

Em: They would also– They nicknamed themselves “the Holy Fathers,” I’m sure, as a dig to the Christians. 

Christine: That’s very funny. 

Em: They also tried out other nicknames, including “the Blasters” or “the Young Bucks of Dublin.” Which do you prefer of the three? 

Christine: [laughs] The Blasters ‘cause it’s like insane. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like why would you call yourself that? It’s like “the Young Bucks”? Okay, fucking fine. But like a “Blaster”? You know one person just came up with that and was like, “Well, what about the Blasters?” And everyone was like, [groans] “Not with the Blasters again.” 

Em: You know what’s so funny though is if that’s true, they had the last laugh. Because in 2025, we’re still talking about the Blasters and no other suggested names. 

Christine: I mean, it’s excellent. Like they knew some– I don’t know if they knew what they were doing, but they knew they were doing something. Um– 

Em: They were like “I’m just ahead of my time. They’ll get it one day.” 

Christine: [laughs] “I, I know something is here. I know it.” And it is. 

Em: So another dig is that the– at the Christians or at the church in general is that the president of the Hellfire Club would be called the King of Hell, and he would dress like Satan during their meetings. 

Christine: [laughs] Oh my god. 

Em: He would like– in a cape and everything. 

Christine: You’re gonna give these people a freaking heart attack at the church. Seriously. 

Em: [laughs] And you know, it’s– I mean, they’re doing like full open mockery. It’s one thing I, I guess in, in my world– Like I don’t even know if I would join them. Like I understand like the, “Oh, let’s be critical thinkers here,” but all of a sudden, it’s like, “Oh, we’re like–“ I, I don’t know if I want to go somewhere where we’re just flashing everyone. 

Christine: I don’t think we’d be invited to be part of the Young Bucks eccentric drunk debauchery group, but– 

Em: [chuckles] Fair enough. 

Christine: –if I did get an invite, I would probably attend. But I imagine I wasn’t really welcome, you know. 

Em: If, if religion wasn’t involved in this, this does just feel like your average Seen on TV fraternity. 

Christine: Fraternity. Yeah, exactly. 

Em: It’s like, “We dress up. We’re naked. We drink.” 

Christine: And they’re called the Young Bucks, and they’re just doing a lot of like, like flashing their wieners for no reason. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It– Like it really does feel like they were just some young drunk rich kids. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. 100%. That’s– And that’s so far how I totally see this. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: At least that’s where, where I– That’s what I think the founder was expecting. 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: Um, it’s also said that their mascot was a black cat. We have no reason why. Maybe it was just a str– 

Christine: I love that. 

Em: –a stray that passed by. Maybe it’s because they’re occult practitioners. I don’t know. 

Christine: I was gonna say, it’s probably just to say like, “What should our mascot be?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “Oh, everyone’s scared of black cats. Let’s do that,” you know. 

Em: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s like an omen. Sure. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Um, they would also drink this concoction called “scaltheen.” 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: Have you heard of this? 

Christine: No. [laughs] 

Em: Apparently, it’s– 

Christine: It sounds like a cleaning agent. 

Em: It actually– I mean, you tell me if this– I’ve heard worse. Um– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –whiskey and butter. 

Christine: I mean– 

Em: It’s like coffee and butter. Some people say that that’s good. 

Christine: –it’s gross, but I mean– It’s ar– it’s inarguably gross, but like I also don’t like coffee and butter, and I don’t like bourbon with anything. So, um, I’m not the one to judge, but– or whiskey, I guess. 

Em: In my mind, in my mind of all the things I’ve said– 

Christine: It’s like a Butterbeer? 

Em: Right? I feel like it’s kind of supposed to be like that, like a butterscotch kind of situation. 

Christine: Yeah, I, um, I’m sure it’s like fine. I’d rather drink that than the pigeon, I’ll tell you what. Seriously. 

Em: [chuckles] You and me both. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, it’s also said that their meetings– a-at their meetings, they would always keep an open seat for the Devil. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Very, very– 

Christine: It’s just like absurd at this point. 

Em: –clear– 

Christine: It’s like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like funny to me ’cause it’s just like they’re clearly just trying to get a rise out of people. 

Em: Yeah. And it’s so– It is unclear how– at least in the beginning, how truly into the occult the group was. And not even in the beginning, like all– and all in all, we really don’t know much about what happened here. But because of its rumored relationship to the occult, people just guess a lot, but there really is no evidence of this. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, it’s just that because they were so anti-Jesus, they must be pro-Satan. 

Christine: [laughs] Right, right, right. I mean, one of them s– one of them had the costume, right? So– 

Em: Yeah, yeah. Um, I would be curious to see what a devil costume looked like in the 1730s. 

Christine: Oh, I would be fucking terrified. I bet you it’s– You know, like when cute masks back then, like cute early Halloween masks that like just look so fucking terri– Have you seen those? Like my stepmom showed me her old like 1950s Halloween masks. 

Em: Oh, yes, they, they are absolutely fucking frightening. 

Christine: Like fucking terrifying. Imagine like a hu– couple hundred years before that. Like what in the world? 

Em: [laughs] I feel like it was made out of like cast iron. Like it was like something horrible. 

Christine: Yeah, like something– And the– 

Em: Like medieval. 

Christine: They’re like, “We’ll put real cat fur on the top.” Like stop it. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: They’re just all so unpleasant to look at. Oh my god. Like– 

Em: Like a literal pitchfork, probably. 

Christine: They look like– The mouse, the, the mouse ones. Uh, like I think it’s supposed to look like Mickey Mouse. And they just look like these– Ahh! 

Em: Yeah. There’s just something so dead in the eyes. I don’t know what it is. 

Christine: It is. And like the smiles are all so big, and they don’t really move at all. So it’s like– Blegh. Anyway, um– 

Em: [groans] Anyway, [sighs] horrid. 

Christine: I’m just gonna send you a jump scare real quick. 

Em: I could see why the Christians would pray harder. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Yeah, I do too. I get it. 

Em: Oh, forget it, Christine, with that. 

Christine: Right? Like these are terrible. And then imagine like your parents dress up like this for the Halloween party. Like there’s an actual picture of a couple in these masks. 

Em: [chuckles] I– Forget it. 

Christine: I mean, it is like– it’s like fucking haunting. And those are the– those are the Disney branded masks. Imagine like the off brand, you know? 

Em: [laughs] Oy-yi-yi. Well, so– 

Christine: Trauma. 

Em: –we don’t know how truly into the occult they started. And I don’t know if it’s like the chicken or the egg, but eventually others did join with more nefarious interests. And I’m sure them hearing that they were, I don’t know, open to darkness in some way that– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –you know, they thought probably they could come on in. So– 

Christine: I mean, probably Satan heard about this and was like, “Well, that’s an easy entry point,” you know? 

Em: Right? [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: Like if I want to collect a few Young Bucks. 

Em: Yeah. Couple Blasters here and there. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: So the worst of them that we have on record of the members that came through here was Lord Santry. Um– 

Christine: Oh god, I knew it. I knew it. The moment you said that guy’s name, I was like, “I don’t like him.” 

Em: Doesn’t he sound evil? 

Christine: Something’s evil about this guy. 

Em: Uh, “Lord” is– It’s really– 

Christine: That– Maybe that’s what it is. [laughs] 

Em: Well, so he straight up murdered his servant. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And by murdered, it was like, I– I’m, you know, you know what I mean by this, but like in an evil way. Like it wasn’t like a– 

Christine: Uh, uh, uh, uh– Yeah. 

Em: It was a painful torturous murder. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, and then he paid people off to get away with it, and he– 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: And then he just killed another servant like– ‘cause he knew he could get away with it again. So um– 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: –the way that he killed the first one is that he force-fed the servant an entire bottle of brandy. An entire bottle of brandy. 

Christine: Fuck off. Oh my god. 

Em: And then set him on fire– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –presumably to see if his stomach would just immediately combust since it was all alcohol. 

Christine: Oh, so he’s like a sick sicko. Like he’s sick, this guy. 

Em: Like, you know, when you hear of like the, the serial killers who are just like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –“I, I just wanted to see what I would look like.” Like it’s just totally– 

Christine: So this is basically like a– Right, he’s like a psychopathic dude. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Like no emotion to it. 

Christine: Cool. Fucking hell. 

Em: Um, paid o– paid people off who witnessed it and then, uh, ended up like stabbing another servant and killing him. So– 

Christine: This is like how these people get away because the people in the group who aren’t necessarily at their core empty and evil just get swayed into saying– turning a blind eye, right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 100%. 

Christine: And then it’s like, “Oh, then the– people like this get to just fucking run around.” 

Em: Yeah. And I mean, imagine if there was someone on like the– I’m gonna use a fraternity phrase here, but on the e-board like on– like the, uh, the people– the higher-ups here. 

Christine: [chuckles] The e-board. 

Em: Imagine being someone who’s like trying to like PR-wise keep it to a minimum. Like, “Yeah, we mock the church, but we’re not evil.” And then this fucking guy. 

Christine: Like, “It’s just a joke, guys, right?” You know? And then like, “Uh-oh.” Yeah, yeah. 

Em: And then a literal multi– multi-time murderer is one of your members. It’s like– 

Christine: An evil person, right? 

Em: “Oh, this is gonna look so bad.” Um– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then they’re like, “Well, we better cover our reputation, so don’t let it get out,” you know? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And then it just like devolves. 

Em: Another guy was named Simon Lutrell who– He did not kill anybody, but he– I guess either the lore around him is really intense, or he swore by this himself that he had made a deal with the Devil in exchange for his soul. And at some– 

Christine: Mm. [chuckles] Cool. 

Em: At some point, I guess when the, the clock struck midnight, all of a sudden, he knew that the devil was coming, and so he ran off. But it became this whole story though, like someone in here has literally made a deal with the devil. And so– 

Christine: Uh-huh, okay. We’ve crossed some sort of threshold. [laughs] 

Em: So yeah. So now we’re making deals with the devil. We– There have been murderers who have been in this club. And so it just– 

Christine: Oy vey. 

Em: –on top of everything else, really immediately started– 

Christine: And they’re, and they’re also like paying people off, so there’s a lot of like conspiracy there. 

Em: Yes, corruption. 

Christine: Corruption, yeah. It just seems like it’s ready for that. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So darker stories just kinda started coming out, and it just– Even if it started with good intentions or silly intentions, like if the worst thing you did was like flash a clergyman– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –it’s, it’s no longer that to the public anymore, so– 

Christine: Right, right, right, right. They can’t look away anymore. Yeah. 

Em: And who’s to say people– Again, it was hundreds of years ago. Who’s to say that these are stories that we were getting direct witness accounts from? Or maybe this was just like scra– scared Christians who were just making up stories? I don’t know. But over time, people started saying that the Hellfire Club was involved in, uh, very intense orgies, that there was animal sacrifice, alleged children sacrifice. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: There is a rumor that has lasted up until 2025 at least that they one time kidnapped, killed, and ate a woman. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Who knows if it’s true, but it is a story on like every website I saw. 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: So it is renowned at this point. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, amongst the animal sacrifice, they’ve also suggested animal torture, including, similar with that servant, um, dowsing animals with alcohol– 

Christine: [sucking in air] 

Em: –and hopefully it’s not true, but setting them on fire. 

Christine: Oh god. Oh god. It’s all bad. I hope all of it’s– I hope the other thing wasn’t true either. That’s– 

Em: I hope they were just into philosophy at school, and they just sat around and talked to each other. 

Christine: I hope they just like beer and were just like– got a bad reputation, you know? 

Em: Yeah, yeah. Um, there are rumors that skeletons of “sacrificial victims” are all around the area– 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: –or buried around the area. And actually in the 1970s, there was a grave of a, a child and their remains that was found on the property, but again, we have no idea of the context. Someone could have put it there to make them look bad. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Maybe some– a completely separate situation happened on the property. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, but again, it just means that even in the 1970s, right before satanic panic, we’re still– It is still happening and perpetuating. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: From all this, the reputation was cemented as wicked, monstrous, and they were all Satanic worshippers, and stories started coming out, uh, about them cavorting with the devil throughout the years. And one of the most famous stories about the Hellfire Club, or this one at least, is that one day a cloaked stranger visited the club– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and the guys invited him in for a game of cards. And they’re all having a good time. They’re drinking. They’re shooting the shit. And a couple hours in, they’re still playing cards. One guy drops his cards while he’s sitting at the table, so he bends down to grab them. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And when he bends down, he looks and sees that the guy’s feet are actually cloven hooves. 

Christine: Ahh! 

Em: Ahh! Um, that’s the most famous one. Another one is that a curious visitor came to the Hellfire Club to see what they were all about, so they invited him in. And the next day, he was found so shaken that he never spoke again. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Uh, The third and final most popular story, um, at– from this Hellfire Club is that another curious visitor, who, I guess, was um– 

Christine: Why are all these people so fucking curious? 

Em: I know. And also I love that they are just welcoming anyone in. Like they’re just like– 

Christine: Yeah, seriously. “I’m just curious.” “Okay, that’s all we need.” 

Em: “We’re slicing a, a throat of a goat open. Come on in.” Like some– 

Christine: Yeah, “Come on in. DP’s out back. Let’s go.” 

Em: [laughs] “DP’s out back. The devil’s out front. Come on in.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Anyway, another curious visitor. He’s apparently visiting all of Ireland because he’s like a guest at a boarding house or something, or he’s– He has a host or a landlord or something that he’s staying with. 

Christine: Okay, okay. 

Em: So this guy’s curious. He goes over to the Hellfire Club, which honestly, I could see myself doing this today. 

Christine: Yes, you could. I literally knew this was exactly where eve– we were gonna end up– 

Em: I could– 

Christine: –is that I was gonna say if anyone would do this, it’s you. Because you’d be like “Well, I just saw it on Atlas Obscura,” and then you– [laughs] 

Em: Literally yes. Atlas Obscura is going to kill me. I’m telling you, they’re going to be the reason– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] It might. 

Em: Like the amount of abandoned ruins I’ve gone to because of Atlas Obscura. 

Christine: Yes, and then you’re like, “This is not exactly what I thought it was gonna be.” [laughs] Like holy shit. 

Em: Anyway, they will never be sponsoring us after that real, uh, opinion. 

Christine: No, listen, we– I fucking love it, but man, they do send you to some weird places. I think that’s a, that’s a vibe. 

Em: It’s like them and Randonautica should have done a collaboration with each other. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: It’s like, “What’s the craziest fucking place we could put you?” 

Christine: Yeah, let’s just, uh, team up with these coordinates. 

Em: So curious guy, he’s in town, and he goes ‘cause he wants to see what’s going on. The guys let him in, and all of a sudden he goes missing. 

Christine: Oh, good. 

Em: And his host, the guy he’s staying with, whatever, is like, “Where the hell is this guy? He said he was going to the Hellfire Club. I’m gonna go check there and see if he’s there.” 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: So the host, because he knows what the rumors are of that place, he brings a priest with him. He’s like, “You’re coming with me to the Hellfire Club.” 

Christine: No! 

Em: “’Cause I’m looking for this guy, and I don’t know where he is.” 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: So they both go, and the Hellfire Club invites them in for dinner, aka a feast. They– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: The priest comes in for a feast. And during this, apparently the priest sees a Dalmatian-sized black cat with horns for ears. 

Christine: A Dalmatian-sized? [laughs] 

Em: Literally, I’m not kidding. I know it sounds stupid. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Four different websites said “Dalmatian-sized.” 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: Why? There’s so many other things you could have– You could have just said “dog-sized.” 

Christine: Yeah. What could you possibly mean? 

Em: You could have just said big fucking cat. Like why–? 

Christine: You could’ve said like, like any other animal that’s about the size of a dog. 

Em: And if it has horns for ears, why don’t you say a, a goat? A black, a black cat that’s a goat. Like the h– 

Christine: ’Cause he’s for sure just like– it probably was a goat, and he was probably like– 

Em: I feel like this priest just saw 101 Dalmatians and was like, “I know all about this.” 

Christine: He’s like, “Hang on. Are you gonna turn him into a coat?” And they’re like, “What the fuck are you talking about? You drank too much wine.” 

Em: So uh, the priest sees this big ass cat and is so scared that he grabs his holy water and– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –that he just keeps on him, strapped on him at all times. And he immediately, mid-feast, in front of all these anti-Christians, starts exorcising their Dalmatian, I think. 

Christine: [gasps] And then they’re like, “This is why we don’t bring priests in here.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “We’re just trying to have a nice meal. And the guy starts chanting in Latin again.” 

Em: It’s like, “Forgive us for rescuing a big fucking cat.” Wow, wow. 

Christine: Seriou– “I mean, come on. This goat needed a fucking home.” 

Em: [laughs] Uh, anyway, he starts exercising the cat. Apparently, the cat dies on site like immediately from this exorcism. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Again, this is a rumored like popular story. 

Christine: Okay, okay, okay. This is like how the story goes. 

Em: The second I said “Dalmatian-sized cat”, you should have known this is like Reddit. [laughs] 

Christine: I, I really was still in it. I was like, “You know what? I’m gonna choose to believe.” 

Em: I appreciate that. No. Uh– 

Christine: In the magic of the holidays. 

Em: So– [laughs] So cat dies, and the priest is like, “Phew, I exercised a demon. You are all so welcome, you anti-Christians.” 

Christine: “You’re welcome.” [laughs] 

Em: “You demons. I killed your cat. You’re welcome.” 

Christine: “We killed your cat.” Literally, “I killed your cat. You feel better now?” Like hello? 

Em: Well, then the story goes that as they’re leaving– I don’t know why they’re leaving on their own accord and they weren’t fucking dragged out for killing this– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –their animal. But they– And the men end up leaving, and on their way out, they find the missing man on the ground, covered in scratch marks– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –as if he had been released from the possession of this cat. 

Christine: [laughs] Oh, shit. Oh, shit. He was the goat the whole ti– cat the whole time. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: So again, I feel like the Christians created that ’cause it’s like, “Look how we saved them from themselves.” 

Christine: It’s such a good story. Like, yeah, the priest ends up being the good guy. He’s like, “I’m just friendly. I want to see what this is all about.” And then, of course, yeah, he saves the day. Classic. 

Em: And a doubting Thomas went on over there– 

Christine: Uh-huh. Fair enough. 

Em: –and look what happened. The demon, the devil took him. 

Christine: Look at that. 

Em: Um, also a lot of people will combine stories two and three and say after the priest saved this guy from being possessed by the cat, um, he was so shaken he never spoke again. 

Christine: Oh, okay. I kind of– That’s cleaner to me. 

Em: I agree. 

Christine: ’Cause the other one was like, “Okay, so what? Like what if he just got punched in the head and didn’t want to talk about it?” Like I don’t know. 

Em: Uh-huh. 

Christine: Not that that’s good, but like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t know. Like it’s– I don’t know the guy. If he’s not talking– 

Em: I, I said the same thing. I was like, “Why did we even separate these two stories?” 

Christine: I– Yeah, I agree. Let’s smash them together. 

Em: Okay. Um, a few years later, this– We’re back to reality now. A few years later– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –a horrible fire broke out in the building of the Hellfire Club. And many people– This is so weird. This is another thing where every single website had a different thing to say– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –but there are a– there’s a lot of speculation on this fire even to this day. Some people think it was accidental, like someone just slipped and a fire happened. Some people thought it was on purpose because like the r– some sort of negotiation problem with the rent. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Some people thought it was intentional. Truly, I’m not kidding. This was a major reason. People think it was intentional for the aesthetic so the place looked creepier. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And– 

Christine: It’s that one guy who called themselves the Pushers– What were they? The Bulldozers? 

Em: Young Bucks. The Blasters. 

Christine: The Blasters. And there– He’s like “No, no, this will work, guys. Look, it’s just gonna be a little tinge.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “I’m just gonna take a, a candle and like light– singe a few of the curtains. See, it’ll look really cool.” [makes whooshing sound of fire catching] 

Em: Imagine if it was like for like a– for a, a promo pick or something. It’s like, “No, let’s all take a picture in front of the place on fire. They’ll love it.” 

Christine: “Oh my god, our album cover will be sick.” 

Em: [laughs] Whatever the reas– 

Christine: And I bet it was, by the way. 

Em: Right? And also I’m– 

Christine: Just saying. 

Em: I’m surprised that nobody suggested that this was a, a ritual gone wrong. 

Christine: Oh, see that’s good, Em. See, we gotta rewrite this shit. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Okay. [laughs] 

Em: Down the hill though, on the same property– This was back before the Hellfire Club was even there, when that really wealthy politician was here, he also built another house on the property called the Steward’s House. And after this fire broke out at the Hellfire Club, they just moved their clubs over to this little house. And that’s where the Hellfire Club stayed on the property until their founder– um, the founder of this chapter died. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And after that, the Hellfire Club kind of just disbanded. Um, we will never know truly how much of the stories are true or other– Like I mean, I just told you three out of like– 

Christine: Until time travel invent– is invented, and Em and I go to all the meetings. [laughs] 

Em: I– I’m calling dibs before anybody else does that the second time travel is real and it’s accessible to us, I want to be the first time travel blogger. 

Christine: Let Em do it. 

Em: Don’t get in my way unless you can go into the future and do it first– 

Christine: Em, you better call Atlas Obscura now– 

Em: –fast. 

Christine: –and make amends ‘cause you’re gonna have to partner with them pretty soon when time travel exists– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and you’ve already– we’ve already hurt their feelings today, you know. 

Em: When time travel exists, it is fucking over for you people. 

Christine: It’s over for all of you, okay? 

Em: You are all in trouble. I’m coming. 

Christine: Including me. I’m just excited about it, you know. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Don’t worry. 

Em: Uh, but yeah, so we really don’t– Those are just kind of the most popular stories, but we don’t really know all that happened. For all we know, um, they were just well-educated social elites into science, and they just like to like play cards. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: You know? Um, and I– but I will– 

Christine: One, one can hope. One can dream. 

Em: I, I will say a lot of the members of this chapter of the Hellfire Club were literally like from Trinity or Cambridge, and they were graduates from those schools. And so maybe they were just demonized for critically questioning religion. You know what I mean? 

Christine: Maybe. 

Em: Or– 

Christine: Again, one can hope. 

Em: Or since we do know that there were some who did believe in making deals with the devil and there were people who committed horrible crimes– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –maybe they were practicing demonic ritualistic ceremonies. 

Christine: Listen, there were also, uh, plenty of frat boys who convict– who did horrible, terrible things and didn’t need Satan involved, you know. So. 

Em: Yeah, like maybe– 

Christine: Could be both. 

Em: –maybe they were just bad, and the demon has nothing to do with it. The devil has no– 

Christine: Maybe some of them were bad, you know, and– 

Em: I’ll tell you, as a, a member of multiple Greek organizations, there are all sorts of people in there. And– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –so maybe there was just like someone who just wanted to go like make friends and color like I did. You know? There’s gotta be one. 

Christine: [laughs] By the way, Em will be bringing a coloring book back in time to, to the meetings in case they get bored. 

Em: Before my, my Greek organization’s first club on campus, I joined coloring club. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: It– I’m not kidding. It was the best. And that was– 

Christine: I know you’re not kidding. I know. 

Em: And I joined it on the, the Friday that Rebecca Black’s “Friday”– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –‘cause that, that song, by the way– 

Christine: And we all remember that Friday, right guys? I remember it. 

Em: Yeah, ‘cause it came out on like a Tuesday or something, and the first Friday where we could all play “Friday” by Rebecca Black was a sensation. You had to be there. 

Christine: Oh, it was– I remember the front– You had to be there. It was– I remember the front of like the AU, uh, newspaper that day, and it was like, “It’s Friday!” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And it had like Rebe– I will never forget that day. It was– 

Em: It was– 

Christine: I think I still have a copy of that somewhere ‘cause I saved it in a box. I just thought it was so funny. 

Em: We used to be a proper country. That was– 

Christine: [laughs] I know. Those were the good ol’ days. 

Em: But that was– I– That was my first day of coloring club. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: And I was sitting there, and everyone was just screaming the words. Anyway– 

Christine: Th-that’s fun. 

Em: –you know someone just wanted this to be coloring club on a hill. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: With a good view. 

Christine: Maybe that’s what it was all meant to be, and it just got out of hand, you know. 

Em: Maybe the coloring is the friends we made along the way, you know. 

Christine: That’s– Wow. Now, that’s a beautiful poignant ending. 

Em: As for the ghosts, uh, there are a lot of footsteps on the property. A black cat is seen literally fucking everywhere. Although, again, could be a fucking stray. Or it could be like– People still go out there and try to do rituals and shit, someone could just leave a cat out there. You know what I mean? Like as a prank or something. I don’t know. 

Christine: [groans] Or it just ran away from– Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, Um, there’s actually a painting of this cat, which I don’t know all the details ‘cause every source had something different, but what I’m gathering is somebody who actually saw the ghost of a black cat painted that, thinking it was the original cat. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: Like it was like the ghost of the original black cat that used to be their mascot. And to this day, it’s hanging there. And if you hang it upside down while you’re ghost hunting, like a lot of shit happens. 

Christine: Ooh! That’s fun. 

Em: So– 

Christine: That’s a fun little twist. 

Em: Yeah, I guess it’s like just a– Ima– Especially in a space where like theoretically there’s a lot of occult stuff going on there– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –I imagine turning a portrait– a haunted portrait upside down is like really showing your intention, right? 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, you’re like, “I’m not here to fuck around. Or I am here to fuck around, I guess.” 

Em: [laughs] So people have seen apparitions of the priest from that one story. They’ve seen apparitions of nuns. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: They’ve seen people performing masses, and they weren’t actually there. People see this cat everywhere, but sometimes with glowing red eyes– 

Christine: Eeek! 

Em: –to a point where like people doing renovations have left because a cat with red eyes kept staring at them. 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: Um, people hear a screaming woman in the woods. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Uh, which I– Take one fucking guess. He likes to call her a banshee. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, people smell something burning here. A lot of people have said burning skin, which would– 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: I don’t know if that’s true or they’re just trying to make it similar to the stories of torture. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, people feel hands grabbing at them, especially their jewelry, like their– People’s jewelry has gotten yanked off of them. 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: Um, bracelets, necklaces, anything. If– Just they could feel it get yanked off them. Um, people hear bells. People feel the ground shake for no reason. Um, people have gotten shoved, scratched, pinched, you name it. And they’ve heard voices of someone telling them to get out. And I guess people have brought crucifixes here, and they get like white hot to the touch. 

Christine: Ew. I was gonna say, “Don’t tell me they like get burning hot.” ’Cause I don’t know why that happens, but I don’t like it. 

Em: Apparently, the feeling of doom is like insane here. There was some traveling reporter who said like, “I’ve been to the Tower of London, and I’ve been to, you know, insert a bunch of haunted places here. And I’ve never felt anything like this.” So– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And I’m sure even– I’m not trying to be like such a diplomatic “maybe they were, maybe they won’t.” I’m just like I’m very aware of like this– There’s no evidence, and it feels like this was kind of just a club that wanted to hang out, and they just– I don’t, I don’t know how true it is. And so anyway, I’m being a little maybe too political or diplomatic about it. 

Christine: No, you’re being very diplomatic about it because I also feel like, like you said, it was right before Satanic Panic, which I’m sure is when a lot of this stuff took off story-wise. And we know things were embellished, and we know things were made up back then to like point to– So I’m– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, I would not be surprised. 

Em: It c– it could have been nothing. I, I believe that– I don’t know what I believe. I, I believe that at the very beginning, it was not this. And I think either some people came in and ruined it for everyone or– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –a bunch of scared Christians just fucked up their reputation, um, out of fear. Uh, or like I think maybe nothing was going on there, and because of its reputation in today’s world, so many people have gone there to practice stuff that now there’s energy there. Like– 

Christine: Right, like maybe created a– Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. 

Em: What’s it? A, uh– 

Christine: Tulpa? 

Em: Tulpa. Thank you. 

Christine: I think a tulpa– Is that more of like an actual being? 

Em: I think it’s more of a being, but it’s, uh, the– 

Christine: M-maybe that’s a cat– Or is that a golem? I don’t know anymore. 

Em: I don’t– What’s it? Is it– Maybe it’s a designated pony. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Last thing I will tell you is, of course– I think I’m Zak Bagans. 

Christine: Duh. 

Em: Because– 

Christine: I’ve been trying to tell you all along. 

Em: I looked up Ghost Adventures, um, Hellfire Club, and this fucking man– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –went there because it was Ireland for a Halloween special. 

Christine: See? 

Em: I felt so grossed out that my brain works like his. 

Christine: Oh my god. See? You’re the same. 

Em: Um, it was an hour and a half long. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: So more of him than ever. 

Christine: Shorter than our fucking episodes. 

Em: Which means I’m not gonna talk about the entire thing, but I will give you like a little snippet. And I do– Before I even start this, I would like you to open Discovery+, and I want to show you a clip. 

Christine: Yes! Okay, let me find my– 

Em: It is 12, 5. Damn, this tea is good. I really wish you could try it. Actually, don’t. I don’t wanna share. 

Christine: [laughs] I wasn’t going to even try. Um. 

Em: Here, I’ll let you have a little sip. Here, just take a sip. [holds tea up to camera] 

Christine: [makes slurping sound] 

Em: There you go. 

Christine: Delicious. 

Em: I know. I know. 

Christine: All right. So I’m on– It’s– Sorry. Season what now? 

Em: 12 and then 5. 

Christine: Oh, dear. Okay. I accidentally clicked House Calls. 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: Season– 

Em: For someone who’s terrified of the phone, imagine if he was your h– your call. 

Christine: I would– 

Em: Imagine if you finally got the bravery to pick up a phone. 

Christine: Don’t say that. 

Em: [Zak Bagans impression] “Hello, it’s Zak.” 

Christine: Don’t. Why do you think I’m afraid of the phone? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Intrusive thoughts like this one. Um, what time stamp would you like me to go to? 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Or should I wait until you’re– 

Em: Well, okay. So I don’t know if it’s different for you, but I could only see the– like on a, on a time– I could only see the end part where it says how much time is left. So I don’t know what timecode it– 

Christine: Oh, okay. Okay. 

Em: Can you go to where it’s– looks like there’s 51 minutes and 10 seconds left? 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: And it should look like Aaron’s kind of just sitting there. 

Christine: [laughs] It’s there. Yep. 

Em: ‘Kay. 

Christine: That’s– There he is. 

Em: Okay. So, uh, before you press play, just to set up the scene. 

Christine: I’m just gonna play a few seconds here to get to the right. There we go. Okay. 

Em: So when we get there or when they’re looking around, pretty immediately, Aaron is super duper affected by this place. And I just wanna say even before I say that, uh– ‘cause of course I gotta give you a Zak Bagans line. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I can’t tell– I can’t do this without giving you like a infamous quote from episode. 

Christine: You gotta set the mood. 

Em: I’ll set the mood. Aaron was trying really hard to be kind to all these ghosts and introduce themselves, and he was like “My name’s Aaron.” And Zak, and I quote– 

Christine: “I’m here for coloring club.” 

Em: [laughs] Zak says, “Aaron, you’re talking to demons, not fucking women making us a shit pie.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: [laughs] And then Aaron goes, “Excuse me for his nastiness.” Like it’s like, “No, don’t put that on me.” 

Christine: Uh, hello? What is wrong with this man? 

Em: “Aaron, you’re talking to demons–“ 

Christine: “Not women making us a shit pie.” 

Em: No, no. “Not fucking women,” remember that, “making us a shit pie.” 

Christine: What in the actual hell are you on, mister? 

Em: Did he overhear someone else say that in a different context– 

Christine: Right? 

Em: –and he just like thinks– 

Christine: Does he think that sounds cool? I don’t even like know what that means. 

Em: Does he think there’s a hot girl out there who heard that and went, “You’re so funny”? 

Christine: I guess there must be ’cause people fucking fawn over this fella. 

Em: Insane to me. Okay, so anyway, Aaron’s already trying to be nice, and honestly between the two of them, Zak should be the one getting attacked for good reason. 

Christine: And getting bullied for it, right? 

Em: However, it never goes that way, and Aaron starts feeling something on him right away. He is fucking freaked out. He even tells Zak, “Don’t go in that room. Something bad’s gonna happen.” He’s like having like– 

Christine: And he’s like, “Watch out. Here I come.” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. And then immediately things start moving. You hear like pebbles and glass move across the floor, and they’re like, “Whoa, something moved.” Um, and right around this time, Aaron starts, I– I’m assuming there’s like some little like tinge of possession because all of a sudden, he starts saying that he’s not– 

Christine: Just a dabble. Just a tinge. [laughs] 

Em: Well, he’s like, “I just stood up and like felt like I like stood up like at attention when you turned the corner, and I didn’t do that. Like I was sitting, and all of a sudden like I just caught myself.” 

Christine: Oh, you jumped up– Oh, ew. 

Em: So he said he felt like he was a little out of control, and then he feels something with nails grab his ear. 

Christine: Ew. 

Em: And I’ve never seen Aaron actually that freaked out. Like he’s bolting out of there. He like– He can’t stop talking about it, and he just immediately starts crying. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Crying. Crying crying. 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: And he is quoted saying, “It felt like I was touched by Satan.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And like he’s so freaked out that as– They just started this investigation, and Zak and him get in a golf cart and literally just start driving away. Like they were going to leave, like not even investigate. 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: ‘Cause Aaron was so freaked out, and then they– Obviously, he’s not thinking straight. But they’re in the middle of the woods, and they’re on their way to escaping, but then Aaron has another panic attack, and he’s like “Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop.” 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: And he just needed to sit like in the grass for a second because he was so freaked out. 

Christine: [chuckles] Literally touch grass. Yeah. 

Em: Literally touched grass. And while still crying– Like crying, like sniffling, crying, like scared crying. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: He says– And of course, Zak is who he is. Um, Aaron says, “I swear to God, it felt like the Devil. I swear. Don’t put this on camera, but it does.” 

Christine: [gasps] Hey. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And then remember a few short years later, when his wife literally tries to kill him– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –and Zak is like “Oh, so sorry, bro. Let’s immediately film it for the TV show.” I mean, for god’s sake, this guy just won’t give it a fucking rest, you know? 

Em: So I will say, um, later on in the episode, Zak goes back by himself and uses the spirit box. And he asks, “What touched um– What touched Aaron tonight?” And the only word he got was Satan. Super creepy. 

Christine: Bye. That’s no good. 

Em: What I’m gonna show you right now though is him still out in the grass freaking out. And this is a– He’s trying to calm himself down. He’s like, “There’s nothing we can do about it now. We just need to like keep it moving.” And this is in the area where people say that they hear this woman screaming. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So okay. Now, press the timestamp if you can. Uh– 

Christine: Okay. Okay. 

Em: The time stamp for everyone, by the way, is 33:50. 

Christine: You got it. Here we go. 

[silence as they watch the clip] 

Christine: Bye. 

Em: You heard it? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Okay, good. 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: Okay. I, I, I’m so glad that you heard it ’cause I was like I, I feel like that’s creepy as shit. Especially after he’s like crying and freaking out. 

Christine: I think, I think it’s a cat. Like I think it’s like a– 

Em: [gasps] A cat. 

Christine: Yeah. Which like also feels apropos, right? But yeah, I think it’s like one of those wild cats ‘cause it goes like, [imitates a cat meow]. 

Em: Hold on– 

Christine: Like it sounds like that horrible– 

Em: Let me, let me play for myself ‘cause now I want to hear it as a cat. 

[silence as they watch the clip] 

Em: I don’t know. I mean, I can see cat though. I can see it. 

Christine: I think– But you know, not even like a normal cat, like the kind of sound you hear in the woods when people are like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: – “I heard a woman screaming,” and then it’s like it turns out to be like a mountain lion or something. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And you’re like, “Oh, it sounded like a woman screaming.” And people are like, “No, it literally does like a lot of times.” 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: So I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t want to just immediately discount it, but it does sort of sound like how– when my cats are hunting at night and they go like [imitates cat meowing] like that. 

Em: Interesting. ’Cause I– Before that com– the conversation I’m having with you right now, I went, “That’s fucking terrifying.” 

Christine: I mean, it’s– It is– To be clear, it’s fucking terrifying. And if that happened in front of me, I would absolutely shit my pants. 

Em: But now it’s terrifying for a different reason ‘cause it’s like what happens at– Spoiler alert. They then decide to go looking for the banshee in the woods– 

Christine: See? Okay. 

Em: And I’m like, “You’re being hunted by a mountain lion.” 

Christine: The mountain lion, right, is going to eat you ’cause also that’s the sound that my– that Moonshine makes when he’s drowning something. He goes like [imitates cat meowing]. It’s horrible. 

Em: Well, that was definitely the creepiest part of the episode. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s– 

Em: So um– 

Christine: I mean it’s terrifying. 

Em: I will say the last two points is that remains of the Hellfire Club and the Steward’s House, where they went after the fire– Um, they’re both still there. They are open to the public, and tours are offered here. I think there’s multiple tours, but the one that sounds the fucking worst to me is a three-hour Horror Hike, which is what I call every hike, by the way. 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: But like– 

Christine: But not three hours. We don’t do those. 

Em: But you do have to go like into the woods, right? So, um, they will– they’ll take you all the way up there. And the last thing I wanted to say is, fun fact, on June 6 in, um, 2006, people came out here to see if the Antichrist would appear ‘cause it was 6/6/6. 

Christine: People are so stupid. [laughs] 

Em: So, uh, if you would like to go, go for it. I do– There are warnings. 

Christine: Well, did he appear? Don’t leave us hanging. 

Em: Uh, no, I don’t think– 

Christine: Aw, man. 

Em: I think he showed up in 2016 and then again a few years later as president both times. 

Christine: Oh, weird. 

Em: But whatever. 

Christine: Wrong country. Go– Wrong country. 

Em: [laughs] Uh, if you do go, there are warnings that people, even though they’re not really supposed to be doing this, will sometimes be caught trying to do rituals up here. So just be aware of that. And that is the Hellfire Club. 

Christine: Oy vey. Oh my god. I don’t think I knew a single thing about the Hellfire Club. I just knew of it. 

Em: I assumed it would be more haunted, but people really– ‘Cause I– Researching it, I was actively looking up like “paranormal”, “ghost”, “spirits”– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –like every buzzword I could. Um, and everything just kinda talked about the– the “are they, aren’t they” of how scary they truly might be– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and like what the rumors are. But there was really very– I had to go digging for scary spooky stuff that actually has happened there since. 

Christine: Damn. Um– 

Em: YouTube has a lot of good stuff. 

Christine: Oh, tha– Yeah. 

Em: But if you’re looking for like reading, there’s very little material. 

Christine: Man. Um, I think I just got Hell’s Fire– Hellfire Club conflated– I think I conflate them with, uh, Hell’s Angels in my head– 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: –of just like biker bar type thing, and then I forget. 

Em: They all do a good job of the second I hear “hell,” I just clash them together as like a big– 

Christine: You’re like, “Scawy!” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: “Scawy junk men.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, anyway, well, thank you. That was a great story. I, uh, I feel like I actually did learn something useful today. 

Em: Thank you. Well– 

Christine: No offense to say that. I didn’t mean to say that so rudely. I just meant, you know. 

Em: No, that was only a compliment. I don’t, I don’t know where you heard an insult in that, but. 

Christine: Sometimes things don’t stick, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

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Em: Christine and I just had a, a bout of fun– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –and we actually recorded our Patreon Yappy Hour before she disturbs all of us with a crime. So um– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –if, uh, later when you’re– 

Christine: Why didn’t we ever think of doing that? 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: Like ‘cause it’s after the f– more fun topic– 

Em: And we’re in higher spirits. 

Christine: Yes. And we’re, we’re getting a snack, and we’re not like so exhausted ‘cause we’re– we’ve only done half the show. Like I feel like that’s a way better vibe. Um. 

Em: Ten years or however long. [laughs] It feels like t– 

Christine: Don’t say ten. Don’t say it yet. 

Em: It is Oc– January is nine, right? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: We gotta figure out something to do for a ten year celebration. 

Christine: Jesus Christ. You know, it’s gonna take us two years to plan it. 

Em: I know, but if you go and listen to Patreon, you’ll see that we can plan things very well when our brains are operating. 

Christine: You know what? In a matter of seconds, and then, uh, just– we just need to rely on someone else to– We outsource it. We send out for the logistics, right? 

Em: Yeah. Yeah, we send it out. Yeah. “I’ll, I’ll tell the coffee shop. They’ll do it.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. “They’ll do it.” Um– 

Em: Um– Anyway, uh, if you go listen to Patreon today and listen to our Yappy Hour and we seem like we’re actually super happy, it’s because we haven’t heard the sad things yet, and now we’re about to hear the sad things. 

Christine: Yeah. So, uh, I joked about this, and it’s probably an insane thing to do, but I was saying we should have the intermission like the Yappy Hour we just did, and then have you pause the show after Em’s story, listen to the Yappy Hour as intermission and then come back. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, uh, but that felt a little, that felt a little ridiculous. 

Em: Someone will. 

Christine: Someone will. And honestly try it, and let me know how it goes. If you do wanna try it, let me know. 

Em: It’s, it’s kind of like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It’s like do you wanna listen to it chronologically? 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Do you wanna listen to it based on– you know. 

Christine: Such a good point. Um– 

Em: There’s– I know. I’m full of them. 

Christine: You’re full of them as we learned in the Yappy Hour where we came up with the best idea. Uh– 

Em: [chuckles] Sure did. 

Christine: Yeah, sure did. So this is the s– And Eva’s like, “What?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “I better go r–“ 

Em: [laughs] “What happened?” 

Christine: ‘Cause we, we literally said, “I think Eva won’t find out about this ‘cause she doesn’t watch this part,” but, um, now she will. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine’s Story – Mary Boyle

Christine: Okay, so here, this is– [laughs] So interestingly you did a story from Ireland, and I thought when you said um, “Oh, this is an October episode. I’m gonna do something Halloweeny.” I was like, “Ah, shit.” ‘Cause I was like, “I didn’t even think that in my brain.”

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And so just by sheer happenstance, my story also takes place in Ireland– 

Em: Shut up! 

Christine: –so I guess I did plan it somehow. Um, and these were actually notes I meant to use two weeks ago. So all very strange. 

Em: I love us. 

Christine: Yeah. A little synchronicities, but um– I, full disclosure, did not do this on purpose, like pick an Irish story, but, uh, here we are with another Irish story, so– 

Em: We both felt uh– We felt some, some pagan air. We were like– 

Christine: Some luck of the Irish. Oh, yeah. 

Em: Yeah, we’re like, “Let’s just go for it. Let’s do something spooky.” 

Christine: “Let’s go for it.” And this one is definitely disturbing. Um, it is about a child, so do with that what you will. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, maybe just go listen to the intermission again. Uh, but it’s the story of Mary Boyle. 

Em: ‘Kay. 

Christine: So she was born in 1970 to Charlie and Ann Boyle. And she had an identical twin sister named Ann, which is also her mother’s name. And I just thought, “That’s fun. Like–“ 

Em: So like Ann Jr.? 

Christine: Yeah. But, but– 

Em: Love that. 

Christine: But then the twin sister gets like a totally different name. 

Em: Yeah, I– 

Christine: You know what I mean? 

Em: I have seen that. And I’m like, “What’s that about?” I never understood when families have like juniors or thirds, but like it comes after kids you could have already named. That– 

Christine: Yeah, I always wonder that too. I’m like, “What’s the kind of protocol?” Or is it like you already had kids’ names in mind, and then you thought about it later like, “Oh, I could– We could do a junior.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: I do love– 

Christine: But yeah, it does seem like a twist up. 

Em: Yeah. I– Like I– In my brain, it feels like you’re expected to get that one out of the way first if you’re trying to do a legacy. 

Christine: ‘Cause it– That– I mean, not to be all about The Office again, but, uh, like when Andy Bernard, like his younger brother is– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –Juni– is like the thir– or like the 14th or something crazy. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And like they passed him and gave it to the brother because it was like that many generations. 

Em: It, it didn’t fit, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s really rough. 

Em: Yeah. Well, ’cause I– And I could see your theory of like, “Oh, well, we already used up the names we wanted, and we had another kid–“ 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “–so we just kind of tacked it on.” I could see that for a junior and maybe a third, but once you get to third– 

Christine: Once it’s beyond that, yeah. 

Em: It’s like you ha– if you want ki– 

Christine: You knew this was coming. [laughs] 

Em: You have a responsibility, in my mind. Like I’m friends with a fourth, and I’m like, “There’s no way a fifth–“ It like– If you’ve already gotten there, and so few people do, it has to have come across your mind that fifth is something you could, and in my mind, should do. 

Christine: Okay. Fun fact: my uncle and my cousin, but my uncle specifically was– He’s the 12th or 13th of like the na– family name. 

Em: Shut up. 

Christine: Like so annoying. And, um, my grandfather had six daughters, and like he was trying for a boy ’cause he wanted– he needed to name– whatever. He wanted the family name to go on. So he had six girls and then one boy and then one more, uh, girl. But he had seven girls and one boy just trying to get that damn name. And I’m like, “Was it worth eight children–“ 

Em: Right. [laughs] 

Christine: “–to try to get that fucking one kid to carry–?” 

Em: How’s your bank account? [laughs] 

Christine: Like– Yeah, like right. I don’t know what you were thinking, but um– 

Em: What a, what a commitment in every way. And also this is another one that really– This– I’ll try to keep it tight. The Duggars, as you know– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –they– The 13th kid is James, and James is like James Duggar the fifth or sixth. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: And I’m like why would you wait for 13 fucking kids later? 

Christine: Maybe they just didn’t want to do that? And then they were like “Oh, we have s– We, we stuck to the J name theme, and we can’t think of another name.” [laughs] Maybe they’re like– 

Em: I’m, I’m shocked. I’m like, “If you’re already at like–“ 

Christine: Yeah, that’s really weird. 

Em: “–keep it up,” you know? So. 

Christine: It’s really strange to me. Maybe they knew they were gonna have so many kids that they were like, “Well, one of them will eventually,” you know. 

Em: It, it would have been really cool if like he’s the 13th, and they were– Like he was like James Duggar the 13th, and they waited for the 13th kid. That’d have been cool, you know? 

Christine: Oh, see– Yeah. That’s at least more– Then it’s like a golden number, you know? Like– 

Em: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It’s like– 

Christine: Or golden age or whatever the fuck. Yeah. 

Em: –the seventh son of the seventh son or whatever. 

Christine: That’s Jesus. Be careful. 

Em: Oh. [laughs] 

Christine: No, I’m kidding. Um– [laughs] It feels like something I learned in second grade, like king of kings, seventh son of the seventh son. Anyway, uh, so I just thought that was funny because identical twin sisters. A-and what I get– what I’m guessing is that the mom– They were gonna name the baby Ann, didn’t know they were having twins back then, right? 

Em: ‘Kay. 

Christine: You wouldn’t know that necessarily. And, uh, had twins and was like “Well, we already have Ann. Now we need another name.” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: So maybe that’s what happened. I’m not sure. But one of the– 

Em: That’s a great point. 

Christine: –twin sisters was named Ann after her mother, and then the other one was Mary. 

Em: [chuckles] Okay. 

Christine: Um, and then there was Mary. They also had an older brother named Patrick, and they lived in Donegal, which is the furthest northwest county of Ireland. And, um, Saoirse made a nice note here that counties in Ireland are similar to states in the US, so we can kind of picture it like that. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Ann was an adventurous and independent girl. She was very, um, bold and liked to be outside and play games, but she did not like to go places without trusted adults. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And I– Maybe it’s hindsight, but that already gives me red flags. Like if a girl is scared to g– like a little girl is scared to be off without a, a trusted adult– 

Em: Yeah, what happened? 

Christine: –I’m like, “What’s going on?” But maybe I’m reading too much into it, so. She was very attached, especially to her mother, not that unusual. Um, her mother described her as “an awful careful child,” and said she was very kind and considerate. She often would stay in with her mom when all the kids would go out to play and would just like help her clean up after dinner or like just want to talk while she, you know, cleaned dishes, which I thought was very cute. And Ann, her sister, her twin sister, knew, you know, the, the different side of of Mary– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –that she was fun and fierce and feisty. And she, uh– Ann always said, “Mary was the one that I let talk for me. Like she was the one who could, you know, speak on behalf of both of us.” Like when twins, you know, have that kind of– like one is the outspoken one. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: That kind of vibe. So that was Mary. She kind of spoke for the both of them, and she was very bold. Like she stood her ground. So they also liked to play little pranks, uh, as– if you’re not– if you are a twin and you never pulled any fun shenanigans, then like– 

Em: What were you doing? 

Christine: –you’ve really, really lost the plot, man. ’Cause you could’ve– 

Em: You don’t understand the jealousy. 

Christine: Aw, I envy you, man. 

Em: You don’t understa– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Like you had such an opportunity to be hysterical. What are you doing? 

Christine: You could have been a sitcom, you know, just built-in sitcom. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. My friend has twins, and I’m like “Oh boy, the shenanigans.” I’m like “Leona, be friends with those twins ‘cause it’s gonna be a fun ride.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Especially if they’re identical twins. The hijinks ensue, are you kidding me? 

Christine: Oh, the hijinks, indeed. So they were identical twins, the Boyles. 

Em: Good. 

Christine: And they would, for example, change their clothes in the middle of the day– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and then like you know, pretend to be each other – classic. Um, they were very, very happy kids. They seemed carefree with a loving family and a secure home. At least that’s what everybody thought. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So March 17, 1977: it’s St. Patrick’s Day. The Boyles drive up the east coast to Ann’s parents house in Cashelard. Ann’s brother Gerry Gallagher was there as well. So that would have been, um, Mary and Ann’s uncle Gallagher and his wife Eve, and they had two sons, Gregory and Gerard. So they were all gathered to mark the death anniversary of another family mem-member, and that’s why they were all getting together for this kind of family reunion. Ann and Mary were now six years old, and they were always happy to play with their cousins. And they only visited their grandparents a couple times a year, so this was kind of like a special occasion for them as kids to get together and play. The house was on a farm in a very rural area where people’s homes were very spread apart, just a very outdoorsy rural area, and there were very few people living in the area. And for that reason, barely anybody even had a landline telephone in their house. So this is like out in the boonies. So the next day, March 18, the children spent the morning doing farm chores. By the way, nightmare. Imagine like– 

Em: [chuckles] I can’t imagine. 

Christine: –you’re on a fun family trip with your cousins, and then you wake up at 6 a.m. to like shovel horse dung. And I’m like, “That’s not what I thought was gonna happen here.” 

Em: I– And I mean this respectfully ’cause I know they’re listening, but I feel like Allison’s family would do that– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –where it’s like, “We’re all gonna get together and wake up at 6 and do–“ 

Christine: “Chip in. It’ll be fun!” Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. “We’re gonna big– do a big family project, and it happens to be labor.” [laughs] 

Christine: “It happens at 6 a.m., and it happens to be hard labor for everybody.” Yeah. 

Em: And you know what? I will say, they do find ways to make that stuff fun. I– That– 

Christine: I mean, people like that need to exist though, you know, to like get the world moving. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like I need people like that to keep doing it. 

Em: But I– 

Christine: And I, I love you for it. I just can’t understand it. 

Em: I could absolutely see them having like a paint party, and we’re all gonna paint the house. 

Christine: I wish– 

Em: It’s like, “Wait a minute.” [laughs] 

Christine: Like I wish I could be that kind of person, but I never will be. I never will be. 

Em: My– You know, I got to brag on my Gammy again because, uh– 

Christine: Aw. Oh, happy birthday. 

Em: Is it her birthday? 

Christine: Isn’t it her birthday? 

Em: Oh, no. This is– 

Christine: I thought you were going– The other grandma– 

Em: This is the dead one actually, the irony. [laughs] 

Christine: Don’t say that, she’s gonna listen. She’s– I’m already on her hit list. Oh god. Happy birthday. 

Em: No, no, no. 

Christine: I meant happy– You know what’s– So here’s the thing. Em. I forget you ever had two grandmas– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –so I only care about the one in Florida. 

Em: That’s okay. 

Christine: And I’m saying happy birthday to that important one. 

Em: My mom and I call her JG ’cause it’s her initials, so. 

Christine: Oh, JG. Happy birthday. 

Em: Hey, JG. 

Christine: Oh my god. I’m so embarrassed. 

Em: No, you’re good. Well, I don’t know until she’s mad at you again. 

Christine: I’m not good. I’m not good. 

Em: You’ve never met, and she’s only ever been mad at you. Never me. 

Christine: She has like her eyes on me, really. 

Em: [laughs] Um, no, my Gammy, the one who passed, who has the “chew” story. [holds up their hand as if swearing an oath] Christine: Yes, yes. 

Em: Um, she was one of those– 

Christine: Your grandmother just went, “Oh, yeah, that one. Yeah.” 

Em: [laughs] The other one. 

Christine: “The other one.” 

Em: Yeah, the other 25% of my blood. Um, she was one of those people where she, she came from a whole line of people that was very involved in the community and would like make fun events out of like necessary tasks in the whole neighborhood. 

Christine: Oh, cool. 

Em: Like when you think about like, “Oh, you want to be like a part of a village?” She was the– 

Christine: Oh, that’s the dream. 

Em: –the head villager. And so um, one thing they would do every year for as long as my, my parents can remember is that they would always host a “steak and rake” where the entire neighborhood– 

Christine: What? 

Em: –would get together at one neighbor’s house. Everyone would rake the leaves when all the leaves came down. And so if there’s like 20 people there, it took five seconds. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: You go to the next house, next house, next house, and then whichever the last house was, uh, where you everybody raked their yards together, that guy would host, um, like grilling steaks for everybody. 

Christine: What the heck? 

Em: And they would have like a big steak– They called it a steak and rake, and they did it for years and years and years and years. 

Christine: That’s delightful. And they could have called it a “steak and shake” and done milkshakes and then honestly– 

Em: And no raking. 

Christine: Oh, wait. No, hold on. 

Em: And no raking. 

Christine: [laughs] See, that’s my idea. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: My idea is “Why don’t we just do steaks and milkshakes?” And then everyone’s like, “’Cause that’s not useful.” 

Em: You know, other people do “awake and bake” before the rake and steak, you know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Right. Oh, now, I’ll do it before the steak and shake. I’m not doing any raking. I’ll be very clear about that up front. Um– 

Em: [laughs] But it, it was things like that where I feel– 

Christine: That’s amazing. 

Em: –like it’d be like, “Let’s all do a big family chore together–“ 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: “–but light hands make– many hands make light work. Whatever it’s called. And then we’ll just have a bunch of filet mignon.” Hell yeah, brother. 

Christine: [laughs] I think– At whose house? And then you and I will plan it so that it ends at like a specific house, you know. 

Em: Like I’ll make the steaks, but I’m sick beforehand, and I can’t actually do any of the raking. 

Christine: Oops. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Um, we’ll just order some DoorDash. But anyway– 

Em: Anyway, all to say they were all gathered together to do family chores. 

Christine: To do farm chores together as the cousins– And I– Man, that would make me mad as a kid. Uh, I really hated when we’d go somewhere, and my parents were like, “Anyway, go off and do, do whatever chores they need to do.” And I’m like– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: –“Why? It’s not my house.” 

Em: Yeah. And also as an adult, if I were hosting people and they were like, “Ask them if they need any help with anything,” I’d be like “With love, get away from my space ‘cause you don’t know how things run here.” Like I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Like, “Don’t touch my stuff.” [laughs] 

Christine: I feel like that’s very kind. And no, you don’t have to go shovel like manure. But I guess these people had a different idea, and they were like– 

Em: Yeah. I would also feel like a bad host if some– if I was like, “Actually, can you grab a shovel and start fucking digging?” [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, you’d feel like a bad host? I’d feel like I’d probably committed a very felonious crime. Um, but yeah. Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So okay. So they’re doing just ch– farm chores, and I guess they’re not that upset about it. Uh– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] But apparently I am. I’m getting spun out about it. 

Em: Well, there wasn’t internet or– yet. So maybe they just like had free time. I don’t know. 

Christine: They didn’t even have a landline. So like yeah– well, they can’t even prank call the neighbors. So they’re doing farm chores. It’s early morning March 18, and then the family decides to have dinner together in the early afternoon. I think this is back when you’d call it dinner and supper was later. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, so Ann asked Mary, her twin sister, if she was coming along, and uh, Mary said, “Where?” And they said, “Oh, we’re going outside to play.” And Mary said no, she didn’t want to. She wanted to stay inside with her mom, which I thought was very cute. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, so she helped with the dishes while Ann and Patrick went outside with their cousins, and eventually, Mary did wander outside to play with her cousins. A little while later, the mom, Ann, looked outside at the children playing in the garden thicket. It was Patrick, Ann, Gregory, and Gerard, but Mary was not there. So Ann asked the kids, “Hey, have you seen Mary? She went out to play a little while ago.” And they said, “No, we haven’t seen her.” So her brother, Gerry, uh, Ann’s brother, was fixing a stone wall nearby, and she shouted to him about Mary, but he couldn’t really hear what she said. So immediately Ann goes into full panic because Mary, like I said, was not the type to go off on her own. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, she liked to be around her mom especially, um, and her family members. So she looks around the property for a few minutes but can’t find Mary anywhere. She then gets up to– closer to Gerry and says, “Hey, have you seen Mary?” and he says, “No.” A– But he jumps in his car, um, and speeds down the road, and Ann keeps looking. And then Mary’s sister, who’s probably of course startled by this, seeing her mom like in such a frenzy– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –joins in to search for her sister, Mary. And Mary was so little, right? I mean, she’s six years old. The picture of her that they– the twins that they have is just sweet, and she has like little pigtails. I mean, she’s tiny. And so now they’re, they’re worried like what if she, um, got stuck somewhere? Like she couldn’t have wandered too far off– 

Em: Or like fell in or– 

Christine: But like she’s so little. Right, what if she got– fell into something and got stuck or broke her leg? Like we don’t know. So they’re kind of, uh, in full panic mode. And, uh, Ann, the little one, six-year-old Ann, grew desperate. And she– [sighs] This makes me sad. She asked her mom to light a candle, and then she started shaking holy water everywhere and blessing the ground and just shouting her sister’s name over and over, saying like “Maybe now she’ll, she’ll shout back.” 

Em: Oh my gosh. 

Christine: Just terribly sad. Um, her father said to stop doing that or the neighbors would hear because he really didn’t think it was like anything that urgent. Like he couldn’t imagine in his mind anything terrible had happened. But Ann didn’t care. She just got louder. She just kept trying to find her sister. And meanwhile, Gerry, Ann’s brother, the uncle, came back amidst this chaos, and he told everyone he’d seen Mary about half an hour ago. He said he’d borrowed a ladder from the next farm over. After dinner, he walked there to return it, and he saw Mary come outside and start following him. So the other house he was going to was only about 400 yards across a field between their farms. But along the way, there was this flooded portion of field, and Mary was like “Oh, the water’s too deep. I don’t want to go through this puddle.” So at 3:30 p.m., she turned around to walk home, and he said that was the last he had seen her. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: This was a straight route back. It should have only taken a couple minutes. And Gerry said he went on to the neighbors and stayed with them for about 30 minutes and then didn’t see Mary again, um, on his way home. So Ann, the mom, ran into the direction of the neigh– ran toward the direction of the neighbor’s house, and she ran to the nearby loch, or lake, where she saw a fisherman on a boat. And I mean, imagine this like thinking, “Oh my god, she’s in the water,” you know. I mean, just can’t– 

Em: “She’s absolutely fallen in.” Like it would be– 

Christine: –even fathom. 

Em: I’d be so scared that I would convince myself it was a gut feeling that absolutely happened. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, ’cause like what else could have happened? You, you looked everywhere else. She sees fishermen on a boat. They had heard them screaming Mary’s name, but, uh, they didn’t know what was going on. So they see Ann now. She, she waves to them, asked if they’ve seen a little girl. They say they have not, and it was getting dark out. Like this is the worst possible timing. It– It’s getting dark. It’s getting cold. And the farms there were covered in bogs, and this is like mountainous terrain. This is just like the last place you want to be out in the woods by yourself as a kid. So no one could call the police because there were no landlines, um, around at this point. I mean, they were around but not in their home. So one of the fishermen, PJ Coughlan, rushed to the sta– the police station. There were no phones, so Ann asked them to alert the police and, uh, tell them just to come straight, straight there. So the police reached the farm at 6, and that was about two hours after Mary was last seen. They immediately launched an urgent search for her. But the town where– Like this is just a kind of fun fact anecdote here. Um, the town, the Ballyshannon, theatre, which is the town where the, the police had come from, they were putting on a festival that day. And so somebody stood on stage and read a police report– or read a police appeal, I’m sorry, to ask for volunteers from– to, to go join the search. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So they were able to get like a big search party going– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –because one of the actors like read a– 

Em: An announcement or– 

Christine: Or somebody went on the stage and, and read like a, an announcement about it. 

Em: A PSA, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, Mm-hmm. Yeah. Unfortunately though, despite all the help, Mary was not recovered that night. The next day, the search was expanded, and soldiers from a nearby military station called Finner Camp joined on the ground and in helicopters. Now, they had hundreds of volunteers searching every barn, cabin, and empty hut in the area. There were farmers who were clearing their own, um, land to look. Uh, the days passed, and nobody found any sign of Mary at all. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And of course at this point, people are thinking, “Well, she probably hasn’t made it, especially if she, you know, is still out there somewhere.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So the case quickly gained national attention. Um, the mom said she just fell into such a, a grief, a depression, she could barely get out of bed. Um, at a press conference, she said the family had begun to suspect that Mary might have been abducted– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –because of all this searching they were doing and no luck. But they continued to hope that she would be recovered somehow, right? Like they have to believe that somehow there’s still hope for that. Initially, a kidnapping did seem unlikely. Um, like I said, this was an extremely rural area. Um, and the road itself was so remote that people thought, you know, “Why would– This– It feels like just a fluke.” Like that’s a freak thing, and it wouldn’t happen out there. And people would have– And if it did happen out there, people would have noticed a stranger’s car, you know? 

Em: Right. 

Christine: And by the way, what do we know nowadays about abductions in the car? It’s not– 

Em: Don’t get in the car? Or– What? 

Christine: It’s not, it’s not all about stranger danger. 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: It’s actually most likely someone you know pretty well. But then back then it’s like the ‘70s, and they’re like “Oh, you know, abduction? Like why would somebody drive all the way out here to abduct a child without being seen?” And it’s like, “That’s not actually statistically how it goes.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. There’s probably somebody on the inside. 

Christine: Usually. 

Em: Especially if you never heard her screaming for help or anything. Not that like– But it– It’s mo– It’s likely that she knew the person, so she didn’t feel scared. 

Christine: I– Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Right? 

Christine: I mean, either way. Yeah, yeah. Either way– Yeah. I don’t wanna spoil anything, but– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –you’re on the right track. Yes. So divers searched lakes near the farm. Entire bogs were drained. Teams searched with scent dogs. Um, Ann, the sister, was led to the very spot where, uh, her uncle said Mary had separated from her– from him. A family member, um– Uh, this is so bizarre. A family member pretended they forgot something and sent Ann to, to go fetch it from her grandparents’ house, and the goal was like to see how long it took a six-year-old to get back– 

Em: I see. 

Christine: –and like how, how well she needed to know the terrain or the route to make it back just these couple hundred yards. 

Em: I feel so bad for her that she was used in this way– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –’cause I’m sure that’s like its own mental load. But how lucky are they that they– Scientifically speaking in the world of research– 

Christine: You have like the perfect candidate. 

Em: She looks exactly like her, so people know what to look for. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And she– You can test out how long it would take her to go do something. And yeah, it’s h-helpful. 

Christine: Yeah, it was– Yeah, it was at least interesting to see like, you know, if she got lost, then maybe they would have had the same mindset– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –and turned the wrong way down a path or something like that. Um, but Ann made it quickly back to the house without any issue– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and they were like, “Okay, so that’s not quite the lead.” Um, Mary, who was missing, was also the more confident practical one. So they were like, “It just doesn’t strike us that she would go off for some other reason or not know the way back.” So the day Mary vanished, she had been wearing a wool cardigan her mother had knit for her and rain boots that were a little too big for her. She also had this ribbon in her hair that her mom had added to her hairstyle that morning. And her sister, Ann, and her uncle Gerry both said she had been carrying a bag of potato chips when she was last seen. And her family believed that if she– if– they believed she may have been abducted, but they believe that if she hadn’t been abducted, if she did fall into a bog hole, that something of hers would have been recovered. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: A ribbon from her hair, a, a, like a thread of the cardigan– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –being caught in a branch. You know, it just seems so strange that like– Or a shoe falling off if you fell or got hurt. 

Em: Sure, sure. 

Christine: It just feels unlikely that, um– 

Em: Or like footprints in a bog, right? 

Christine: –anything– [laughs] That sounds like a Raffi, Raffi song. 

Em: “Footprints in a Bog.” [laughs] 

Christine: [singing] ♪ It’s a pollywog walk in a bog. ♪♪ Okay. Uh, sorry. Yeah. So she has this cardigan knit by her mother. It just seemed strange that like nothing– like the boot, the, the potato chips hadn’t been found. The– A boot hadn’t been found. Nothing, nothing had been found. Not even with search dogs, right? Like they didn’t even find the fucking potato chips. 

Em: Right? 

Christine: Like that tells you something. 

Em: I actually was gonna say that earlier, and I didn’t– I didn’t know. I didn’t want to make too much light of that. But I, if I told Hank to go find a bag of potato chips, I feel like he could find it on Saturn. Like I think– 

Christine: I mean, like if you’re gonna find a scent of a little girl, you’d think the scent on the potato bag chip would be pretty distinct, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Or like it just– Yeah, it just doesn’t make sense. They did searches for about a month with soldiers, police, volunteers, dogs, and nothing, not a single shred of evidence they found. Their, uh, mom, Ann, said that going home without Mary was a shocking experience. Um, because remember they were at their grandparents’ house. They were at Ann’s parents’ house, so they weren’t even at home. So now they had to travel back home with just one daughter, with just one of the twins. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And I mean that’s just a nightmare. Um, throughout the entire search, uh, an– the, the kid’s father, Charlie, believed they would still find Mary. He really held hope for a long time. Um, he couldn’t speak about her. He was just like very deeply traumatized, you know, and one of the things his wife said was, “We just– There was no resource. Like you didn’t have a therapist. You didn’t– Like what are you gonna do? You don’t know how to talk about these things. So like why would you? It’s just painful.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, and I thought that was a fair point ‘cause we look back going like “Somebody get these people help.” But, it’s like what help? You know, I mean– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –even to this day, like it’s hard to find help. So it’s just really sad. And, and the sister of course is also going through her own version of a nightmare because she’s like missing her sister and a part of herself essentially. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And she, she said it was torture. She became fearful. She became really attached to her parents. Um, she became afraid she would disappear. I mean, it’s just terrible. 

Em: Yeah, I can’t imagine being a six-year-old and thinking, “She got taken. I can get taken, too.” Like– 

Christine: Yeah. And like, “Where– Is she hurting? Like where–?” It just all sounds– 

Em: Oh my god! Just got a fucking delivery person. Oh my god. 

Christine: Jeezle-Pete. 

Em: Every time. Every time. 

Christine: Whoo-hoo-hoo-hoo. 

Em: Every time. I’m so sorry. Um, as I’m saying like someone’s gonna take me, and then a grown man was like right here. Um– 

Christine: You’re like, [chuckles] you’re like manifesting. 

Em: [laughs] “He’s gonna take me!” Um, no. But I would be worried. I mean, she was already– You’ve mentioned this already, but she, she was so scared of even leaving her mom’s side. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Like imagine now. Like there’s, there’s no leaving your mom’s side. I would tape myself to my mom. 

Christine: Well, the– Well, the other sister was the one afraid of leaving her mom’s side. 

Em: Oh, really? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Well, then this sister’s probably like, “I fucking get it now. I’m gonna be like that too.” 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. She almost got like fearful because of it. Like she hadn’t really– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –been in that headspace. And then her sister disappeared, and she was like, “Shit, I–“ Like she became as kind of attached as her sister had been. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Understandably, yeah. Um, and this picture’s sad too. There’s a picture of her, um, at her First Holy Communion, and that was shortly after her sister’s disappearance. So she had to go do that alone. The priest actually postponed the ceremony for as long as he could, hoping that her twin would, would be home in time, but eventually they just had to do the First Communion. Charlie, the dad, broke down in the chapel. This is like where he really had his first kind of overwhelm breakdown, um, just seeing like his daughter go through this, what was to them, very important ritual and like stage of growing up that the other sister just had been like plucked out of, you know, the scene. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But as years passed, um, Ann sort of started to feel like her sister was never coming home. And she said that was really an adjustment because she told herself from little on that her sister would come back someday. And perhaps on their 18th birthday, for example, perhaps on her 21st, she’ll finally show up. 

Em: So sad. 

Christine: You know, just like all these potentials. And after their 21st birthday passed, Ann said, “Okay, I think like if she’s not around for this birthday and like–“ 

Em: It’s not happening. 

Christine: “–she couldn’t find her way back, then she’s– there’s no way she’s coming back.” 

Em: I can’t imagine holding out hope for that many years and just at some point having to just throw your hands up. 

Christine: It– And it’s so sad too. Exactly. Because she said, um, she remembered that day so vividly, uh, the day that her sister disappeared, and she said she couldn’t believe she was not the one to walk her to the neighbor’s farm. ’Cause she said, “We were always together. Like these few minutes, we weren’t together like–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “And it just– Something terrible happened.” So decades passed, police occasionally opened new inquiries, but again and again, you know, the family was crushed when nothing came from anything. Um, there were tips from all over the UK. There were tips from parts of Ireland. There were tips that like maybe she’d ended up in Scotland or, you know, just– And the family followed through on all these leads. They would go to these places. They would, they would try every angle, but every lead ended up nowhere. So when Ann got older, the twin, Ann, um, she started to realize like when she was a kid and her sister had vanished and then she had to travel home from her grandparents, it seemed like her sister could be anywhere in the world, like out there in this vast place. But as she got older and kind of understood more of the world, she realized actually the place where she could have ended up is a lot smaller, you know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: The, the odds of her ending up somewhere like in Panama or like some random place in the world are much slimmer than where she probably– like the actual radius of where she probably ended up, especially if she had been killed that day. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: And so she started to realize like maybe she was never lost at all. Maybe she was abducted. And a detective sergeant on Mary’s case called Aidan Murray interviewed a man, uh, that he actually wanted to arrest, and he said– he claims that if he had gotten another hour with him, he would have gotten the guy to confess. 

Em: Oh, shit. 

Christine: But I don’t, I don’t know what that means. I don’t know like the context of that. I don’t know how true that is. Um, but either way, he believed this man was on the verge of confessing to taking Mary, but he didn’t have enough evidence to hold him, so they were forced to release him. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And then this caused an extreme controversy later on, on down the line when rumors started spreading among detectives that a politician had called the police station and demanded to let this individual free and to not bother this individual. And Detective Murray heard these rumors, but he could never corroborate it or prove it. So basically with the l– with the kind of getting this guy off the hook, rumors started that this is a cover-up essentially– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –that somebody was brought in, and then a politician called the police said, “You have to let this person go. Don’t question him anymore.” And the police said, “All righty, we’ll cover it up.” And that is the, that is the controversy– 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: –that’s spaw– that was spawned by this. 

Em: Yeah, someone’s, someone’s getting it– “We don’t, we don’t want to find out the secrets,” or “We don’t want the secret out,” or whatever it is. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “We don’t want this person to be, uh, involved, even though they were,” you know. 

Em: Ugh. 

Christine: So a man named Robert Black was also considered a person of interest for a long time. Um, he was a Scottish serial killer who kidnapped, raped, and murdered multiple young girls in the UK in the early 1980s. He spent time in Donegal. So many people believed he had kidnapped and killed Mary. And besides that, in a 1999 article, writer Brighid McLaughlin reported that in 1978, um, Robert Black was at a pub in Donegal and overheard a woman talking about Mary’s disappearance, and he asked them to show him the family’s house. This is the story in the article. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: The serial killer was apparently in a pub and, um, said, “Can you guys show me Mary’s house?” And he specifically asked to see Mary’s twin sister and where she lived. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And so this woman was like “What the fuck, dude?” And assuming he just had like some macabre fascination with– 

Em: I would assume that, yeah. 

Christine: –this dark story, um, she just refused and was like “What the hell?” And apparently, he got like enraged. Like he was pissed off– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –and this is like something he really wanted to do. 

Em: Back the fuck up, dude. 

Christine: Yep. And so that was alarming. Um, despite Robert Black’s crimes against children and his presence in Donegal around the same years that, um, the Boyles lived there– 

Em: And his, and his ins– 

Christine: –and his fucking weird ass– 

Em: –weird interest in this– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –where he’s like, “I wanna to see the site again where I did this,” or whatever– 

Christine: Yeah, correct. Or so– 

Em: Maybe. 

Christine: –where someone did this even, you know. It’s just bizarre. Although that’s not even the site, ‘cause, ‘cause they lived in Donegal, but the, the crime happened in a different part of the country because they were traveling to see the grandparents. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So this would have just been like where she lived like as a kid, which is just fucking– 

Em: So weird. 

Christine: –creepy. So in any case, um, he was just a creeper either way. Uh, and becau– despite his crimes against children and his presence in– like he could– Because he was a– such a sicko like he could have really had a fascination and wanted to see the twin sister, you know, and like who knows what the fuck. 

Em: And, and is he– he’s talking to her? Like to the sis– 

Christine: No, no. He’s talking to– Apparently, it was, uh, he overheard somebody in the pub talking about Mary’s death and said, “Can you show me where her house is?” 

Em: Okay. Okay, yeah. 

Christine: “I want to see her twin sister.” 

Em: ‘Cause I could– I mean I’m not trying to make total defenses for this guy, but as two people who have a morbid show– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and people who listen I’m sure have a morbid fascination like s– And we literally wrote books about all the morbid places you can go. Like I’m– I could see him just taking it way too fucking far, and– 

Christine: But like also he had murdered several children. So it’s like– 

Em: Oh, yes, I forgot about that. Okay, yeah. 

Christine: He’s a serial killer, so it’s also like– 

Em: That’ll do it. Never mind. So everything I was– 

Christine: –that on top of it– [chuckles] 

Em: You’re right. 

Christine: –that on top– 

Em: I stand corrected. 

Christine: –of it– Like– 

Em: I’m corrected. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: That was– Never mind. I totally forgot about that for a second. 

Christine: I was like, “When do I cut in?” Um– 

Em: You did a great job cutting in. 

Christine: Sorry, I didn’t cut it soon enough probably. 

Em: But, okay, that aside– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –if we weren’t thinking about that, I could see someone being like, “Can I see it? Like I know it’s fucked up, but can I see it?” 

Christine: Yeah. And the– 

Em: But you’re totally right that– 

Christine: And it’s also the fact that like they were like, “No,” and he got pissed off. It’s like, “Okay, you’re being a fucking weirdo creep.” And also it had happened like a year earlier. It wasn’t like this is like decades old or something– 

Em: It wasn’t forever ago, yeah. 

Christine: –and it was like a historic site. Like the little girl still lived there, you know. 

Em: [inhales sharply] Ah-ha, yeah. 

Christine: Like I don’t think any of our listeners are like us, which I feel like– 

Em: You’re right. 

Christine: Decades later maybe or like years later, but not like, “Where does the sister live now? I wanna see her,” you know. 

Em: “Yeah, I want to look in the window.” Yeah, something fucking creepy. 

Christine: That’s just– That’s– 

Em: But also you know what? 

Christine: –too far. 

Em: Even if he didn’t take the first one, he might think, “I’ll get the second,” you know? 

Christine: Well, yeah, that’s, that’s kind of what I was trying to hint at it like even if he wasn’t involved, he probably had some nefarious fucking idea in his head or sick– 

Em: Oh, I see. Yeah, I know. At first, I was just thinking he just wants to see it to like weirdly feel like the energy of the space or something but– 

Christine: Or that, right. Or he wants to get involved. I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, but either way, thank god she was like, “Hell no.” And, uh, despite all this, investigators did eventually determine he was not in the area the day Mary disappeared, and he was dismissed as a person of interest. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Then in 2014, a 64-year-old man was arrested as a suspect in Mary’s disappearance. Um, Ann actually knew the man as a child. She was a few years older than him. He was a soldier at Finner Camp when Mary disappeared. And at the time of his arrest, he had been previously convicted of child sexual abuse charges. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Detectives were hopeful that the arrest would lead to discovering what happened to Mary, maybe even leading to her remains, but the suspect was released soon afterward with no new answers and just more pain for the family who had their hopes up again. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: For several years, Ann and Ann [chuckles], Ann Sr., Ann Jr. And– 

Em: And– Sorry, I wanna– I know this has nothing to do with anything, but it’s in my brain now, and I just kind of want to word vomit. That– So you were saying, “Why would they just pick Mary when they got an Ann and an Ann?” Isn’t the dad Gerry? 

Christine: No, the uncle. 

Em: Oh, fuck. I was gonna say, “Well, one got a rhyme.” Anyway– 

Christine: No, Charlie. 

Em: Okay, I’m back to not understanding. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: Okay, go ahead. 

Christine: Well, Charlie, Patrick, and Mary are all very Irish names, I feel. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: So it feels like maybe they were just family names. 

Em: Sorry, I did not mean to take us out of the, the sad part. 

Christine: No, no, no. I mean, it’s a, it’s a fair– I was hoping somebody would solve the mystery, but– 

Em: Not me. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: By the way, I meant, “I’m not solving it,” not “I don’t hope it’s solved.” 

Christine: No, yeah. [laughs] 

Em: God, we are really– How many feet can we put in our mouths today? I don’t know. 

Christine: Jesus Christ. I already swung one across the screen earlier. 

Em: [laughs] I totally forgot about that. 

Christine: This is a mess. Um, don’t worry. I’m here to remind you. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Okay, so for several years, the mom, Ann, and Mary’s sister, Ann, were not on speaking terms, which is pretty devastating, but you can imagine this would have had like quite a dramatic effect on the dynamics of the family. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: The sister, Ann, with the support of her cousin, Margo, had remained a staunch advocate for her sister. She would lead protests and marches demanding more reviews of Mary’s case. And in 2013, she filed a complaint against the police for potentially ruining a dig for Mary’s remains. An investigative report on Mary’s disappearance claimed that just days after Mary vanished, a witness reported a site where hair and clothes appeared to be protruding from a fresh mound of dirt. 

Em: Oh god. [sighs] 

Christine: According to the report, the police never investigated the site. And so Ann fucking freaked out and was pissed off. 

Em: Yeah, you had a fucking lead and didn’t do anything? 

Christine: The reporter worked with Scantech Geoscience to survey the location, and they reportedly detected a possible burial at the site. And when this was published in 2013, the police agreed to excavate the site to search for possible remains. Um, they did this– They needed to do a very painstaking and meticulous excavation because forensic dig protocols are such that like after decades and decades of someone being dead that this could be a very fragile– They needed to do a very like painstaking meticulous dig to make sure they didn’t damage any evidence, that kind of thing. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Instead, the police used heavy machinery and just like fucking blasted through the ground and destroyed any possible evidence of Mary. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So– 

Em: Fucking sick. That’s great. 

Christine: Yeah. So Ann launched an official complaint, and an, and an investigation was open to review the excavation. She also requested a coroner’s inquest to declare Mary officially deceased, which normally would be unusual without a body, but not unheard of. But– 

Em: It was like so– But this sounds so obvious. It’s like, “Hello, she’s–“ 

Christine: Right. 

Em: “It’s over. Like let’s do something about it.” 

Christine: It’s over. And Ann, the mom, though had to approve the coroner inquest, and she refused. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: And so that’s where this, this rift kind of– 

Em: Gotcha. 

Christine: –turned into– 

Em: I mean, I, I get it. It’s like she’s like, “I just wanna–“ 

Christine: –separation. 

Em: “There’s still hope. Maybe, maybe she’s out there.” I don’t know. 

Christine: So yeah, her husband, Mary’s father, had actually died in 2005 in a fishing accident. And Ann said Charlie never wanted this inquest done because he just had maintained hope that she was alive for so long– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –that when he died like accidentally and, and like unexpectedly, she felt this urge to like carry this on, and she felt like she couldn’t sign it because she knew her husband wouldn’t have wanted it. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So Ann, the sister, says in interviews now that she is confident actually that she knows the identity of Mary’s killer, and she believes that Mary was dead by the end of the day on March 18, 1977. 

Em: Mm! Okay. 

Christine: She believes– And this is her tw– identical twin sister, so you guys fucking tell me what you think. She– 

Em: Twins weigh in. This is your moment. 

Christine: I mean, twins weigh in. There you go. She believes that Mary was the victim of sexual abuse and that she was murdered because the abuser believed she was going to report him. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Other families have directly accused Mary’s uncle Gerry of murdering Mary that day in 1977. 

Em: Does, does Ann think this too? 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Oh. [sighs] 

Christine: In 2023, Gerry died, and Ann spoke to a reporter at the Sunday Independent, saying she hoped that this death might lead to some answers. She said, “I just hope that maybe there are others who might have been told something, who might now speak out after the death of my uncle.” 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Ann had said in multiple interviews she’s not looking for justice or an arrest. She said, “All we want is to find where my sister was left, to give her some dignity and lay her to rest with a decent burial – somewhere we can go visit. Everyone deserves that, to have a grave.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Ann says she’s just been tortured by this mystery and not having answers, and she hopes someone will make an anonymous report, that they can just finally end her misery and, and find her sister’s body. The controversies have continued to cause rifts among Mary’s family and people who investigate the case. Um, there were even lawsuits raised against documentary filmmakers. Politicians have been accused of interfering, um, and they have vehemently denied any involvement. And the mom has received letters with accusations who– of people who think she had something to do with her daughter’s murder. And it’s just really a painful thing for everybody in the family to keep reliving. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: She often thinks back to the day she lost her daughter. Before dinner, Mary ran to her and said, “Mom, I forgot to kiss you this morning,” and she wrapped her arms around her and gave her a kiss on the face. 

Em: Aw, that’s very cute. 

Christine: And she says that’s what she thinks of. I know. I know. Yeah, so it’s been 48 years as of this recording, I believe. So uh, and we’re in 2025. They all just hope to find answers someday. I mean, the sister, uh, Ann, said, “In my head, I’m always talking to Mary, and if I’m in trouble, I’m asking her for help. I always believe that she’s looking out for me.” So yeah, anything anybody has a, an inkling or any idea, um, even if it seems insignificant, they ask you to contact the authorities. Mary Boyle’s disappearance remains the longest open missing child case in Ireland. Um, and if you want more information, you go– can go to facebook.com/JusticeForMaryBoyle. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: And yeah, so happy Halloween. Life is scary. 

Em: And that’s why we drink. 

Christine: Ay! 

Em: Um, good story. Although mad there’s no results, but I guess– 

Christine: I know. I know. I hope– I can only hope. So he died in 2023, so maybe– 

Em: It still sounds like it’s kind of actively ongoing, so– 

Christine: Yeah, like things are still getting movement, I guess, so. The fact that like multiple people think Gerry was sexually abusing her to begin with is already just– 

Em: Yeah, that– 

Christine: And the fact that he said– Rem– Okay, remember at the beginning, which I meant to harp on later– I’ll harp on it now, when, uh, Ann told her brother like, “Oh, have you seen him?” And he’s like, “I can’t hear you.” 

Em: Oh. [sighs] 

Christine: And then she went up to him again and said, “Have you seen her?” And then he said, “No,” and jumped in his car and drove away. 

Em: Yeah, like he like didn’t wanna even be on the property. 

Christine: Well, they thought like maybe he’s looking for her or something. But then he came back, and he said, “Oh, the last time I saw her was half an hour ago when I was walking to the neighbor’s house, and–“ Like why wouldn’t you say that when she said, “Have you seen her?” “I saw her half hour ago. She was following me to the other house.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “Maybe she’s over there,” you know like–? 

Em: And also if you s– Maybe that was true, and he saw her half an hour ago, and that’s when he snatched her up, you know. Like– 

Christine: That’s wha– Exactly. It’s just a weird way to like drive away and then not tell them until you come back later and say, “Oh, I did see her earlier.” It’s just weird anyway. 

Em: I, I would be– There’s no way to know this now ’cause sounds like there wasn’t any documentation of it, but I’d be curious to see if he– if e-everyone was so freaked out about her missing that they maybe overlooked any details of like how he looked? Like did he look disheveled– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –or dirty or bloody? Or did he just kind of house her somewhere until later? 

Christine: Did he– Right. And he– Right. And back then like there was no understanding of DNA evidence. So it’s sort of like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –there wasn’t much– 

Em: Nothing infuriates me more than what we don’t know will be great evidence in the future. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: ’Cause I’m like, “What are we just totally discarding that we–?” 

Christine: I know. I know. 

Em: It’s like that John Mulaney bit of like, “Oh, a bunch of blood? Yuck. Wipe it up.” Like it’s like– [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. “Yuck. Get that out of here.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. It’s like what the hell are we just like– 

Christine: “A bunch of blood? Yuck.” 

Em: [laughs] It’s like, “Now back to my hunch.” Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Such a good line. 

Em: But, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s exactly that. It’s like how are you supposed to know what you don’t know? And then, um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –to have just all these– Like to have a clue like, “Oh, there was a hint of fabric coming out of some fresh dirt,” and then the police are like, “Oops, we smashed it.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like what the fuck. 

Em: I mean, were people like fired for that? Like was there– There had to be– 

Christine: They said that they were doing an inquest into it or doing a– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –doing a, an investigation into the excavation, which whatever that means. 

Em: Annoying. 

Christine: But like again imagine if there, if there was some cover-up, if there was involvement, then like why would– in what– it does not behoove them to get involved. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: But, um, also that’s just a rumor, so, you know, who knows. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: [sighs] Anyway. 

Em: Well, good job, Christine. 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: And would you like to end on a highlight and describe ev– to everybody what’s going on with your shirt here? 

Christine: Oh, yes. Uh, Leona made me this– Well, we made tie-dye recently. 

Em: So cute. 

Christine: And it was really messy. I mean, like obviously it was really messy, but it was so much messier than I thought. ’Cause I really did prepare. I put like trash bags over the outside tables. I did it on the porch. I put on aprons. 

Em: Is it ’cause she’s a kid? Is that what makes it messy? Like– 

Christine: I think it’s ‘cause of me– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and because she’s like me. And so it’s like we don’t– 

Em: Uh-huh, it’s two Christines together. 

Christine: Yes, yes. It, it’s like we can both be as careful as we can, and then one of us will elbow an open bottle of tie-dye, and it’ll just stain the porch purple. 

Em: Well, I, I hope that didn’t sound like I was accusat– accusing her. But like– 

Christine: No, you’re 100% right to ask. 

Em: Because I was just in Philly a week ago now, I guess, and, um, my– one of our friends that I was hanging out with, she was like “Oh, we should all carve pumpkins together.” And I was prepared for– Like I wore like a shirt that I was down to get messy and like– ’Cause I remember just being disgusting, like just like a fucking slimy nasty party. 

Christine: Oh, it’s gnarly. 

Em: And I remember just always being so gross. But I also haven’t done it since I was a kid. And then all of a sudden, it was just four 30-year-olds in a room, and I was like, “Is this like weirdly clean and like not a problem for anybody?” Like we– I just would scoop it out and put it in the bowl and scoop it out and put it in the bowl. And then– 

Christine: Shut up.You know, I’m still like doing this, right? [mimes pulling pumpkin out with her hand] With the strings? 

Em: Like we did the thing where we put like trash bags out, and like we were like, “We didn’t even need these trash b–“ 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: It was just totally clean and fine. 

Christine: So, yeah. 

Em: And within like 15 minutes, we had done all the gross scooping, and then we were just like carving. And it wasn’t even like little bits of pumpkin everywhere. Like we carved like big pieces and then just put them in the trash. And I was like, “Has it always been this easy? We were just children, and that’s why it was so messy?” I just couldn’t– 

Christine: No, I’ve done it recently, and it was still as messy, so I think it’s just, um, the, the mess is in the eye of the pumpkin holder, you know. It’s like– 

Em: Oh, that was beautiful. 

Christine: Thank you. That– 

Em: It’s kind of like that one time we had a conversation where you were like, “How do you wash your face without water like running down your elbows?” And I was like– 

Christine: And then like literally we started some sort of culture war within our own group like community. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: People to this day are like, “Do you still not know how to wash your face?” And I’m like, “God–” 

Em: And you’re like, “Yes.” [laughs] 

Christine: “Um, I don’t know. I have no fucking clue.” No, I bought those wrist things everyone told you about. Um, yeah. 

Em: I think– I honestly– I think it’s the placement of the hands. Like I think it’s just like– Or how y– where– which– do you bring your hands to your face or your face to your hands? ’Cause if you bring your face to your flat hands, then it doesn’t happen. 

Christine: Yes, it does, Em. 

Em: But if you bring your wet hands to your face, it drips down. 

Christine: I’ve tried everything. 

Em: I don’t believe you. I want to see in real time. 

Christine: You can watch. I told you. I’m gonna show you because I feel like– 

Em: ’Cause it does happen to me. If I like– if I’m washing my hands, and I’m gonna wash my face, and then I do this– [brings hands up to their face] 

Christine: But maybe like– 

Em: –yeah, water rolls down. But if I keep my hands here [keeps hands flat horizontally] and I bring my face to it– 

Christine: You can’t just keep going down. That’s exhau– Like my– That sounds painful. 

Em: Like I– No, like you bend your face into the sink where your hands are. 

Christine: Like but like the whole time I’m washing my face and stuff? 

Em: Yeah. Oh, you like do this whole situation? [mimes scrubbing face with hands] 

Christine: Yeah, ’cause I have to get makeup off and like– 

Em: Ahh. 

Christine: –you know all that shit. And then it’s like you– And then there’s just like black mascara, then you have to like wash more of it, and it’s like it’s just– 

Em: It’s just male/masc privilege that we don’t have to deal with that. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. I feel like if it were just a one and done, I could just like go but– 

Em: ’Cause all I ever do is I slap some soap on, and I just go “ch-ch-ch” [mimics washing face with soap] and then like five seconds later my face is clean. 

Christine: Mm. Yeah, I wouldn’t know about that. 

Em: It’s just– Yeah, I think it’s just being a woman– Society sucks. I think that’s what it is. 

Christine: Mm. I think it’s actually– 

Em: Beauty is pain. Beauty is pain. 

Christine: Yeah– Thank you. I said that recently, and I kept saying, “pain is beauty.” And my brother’s like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –my brother was like, “I don’t think that’s how that goes.” And I was like– 

Em: Are you a tortured arti–? Are you Edgar Allen Poe? [laughs] 

Christine: I– That’s what he said. He’s like, “You sound like a fucking sadomasochist.” I was like, “I don’t know anymore.” Um, but yeah, so that’s all I’ve got for you. But yes. Oh, yeah, this is my tie– But like for how messy it was, it’s– it looks very minimal. 

Em: It looks great. No, it looks great. 

Christine: But she did like– She has Blaise in her where she’s like, “I’ll pick three colors for each person’s shirt.” And I’m like, “Let’s do all the colors on all the shirts.” And she’s like, “No, that– ’Cause then it turns brown.” Um– 

Em: Is there a reason she picked, um, green, orange, and I guess red? 

Christine: Purple, I think. But– 

Em: Purple. Oh, she– Oh, did Blaise get the complimentary– or the primary colors? You got the secondary colors? 

Christine: He got– They– The two of them got the best colors. 

Em: What’d they get? 

Christine: I don’t know, but she decided they were the best ones. [laughs] And s– 

Em: And she said, “And mom, you can have the ugly ones.” 

Christine: Yeah, “You can have the remaining.” And I went, “Okay.” 

Em: Talk about being a mom. The thankless job. “Here’s your ugly fucking shirt.” [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, honestly– 

Em: But at least you’re a part of it. 

Christine: Here it is. And I was like, “Well, now I have to clean, um, ink off of my hands for the next week of my life.” But like those gloves are so uncomfortable. 

Em: They suck, and your hands get like weird and hot. 

Christine: Uh, and It’s hot. By the way, it was like July, so like mosquito– I mean, it was just so rough. I was like, “I think Leona–“ It wa– I felt thankful that I got it out of my– out of her system. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: And my system immediately. 

Em: It’s never left my system. To this day, if I get bored, I want to tie-dye something. 

Christine: I know. And you are much more equipped for something like this. If you can do a, a pumpkin– 

Em: That’s nice. 

Christine: –without like creating a serious problem– 

Em: I’m telling you, I– 

Christine: I had to throw my pants away. Like it was bad. 

Em: [laughs] I don’t– I– 

Christine: And she had a brand new shirt on, and she was wearing an apron, but I had to thr– like throw out our clothes. They were just completely destroyed. 

Em: I really think it was just that I was the only– I don’t know. I– Maybe I was just on my best behavior ’cause I was with a bunch of type A people. But like we literally all just scooped it out, and then one of us– 

Christine: What design did you make? 

Em: I made a Poké Ball. 

Christine: Cute. 

Em: It– 

Christine: Did you buy one, like a print-out? Or did you print something out? 

Em: No, I just saw a picture and just kinda– 

Christine: Nice. 

Em: Um, but the– One of us like volunteered like, “Oh, once we put all of the scoops, all the “gush” into a, into a bowl. I’m gonna– I’d already finished my pumpkin, so I’m just gonna pick out all the seeds.” And then while we were carving, she like roasted the seeds. And by the time we were done, all the seeds were done, and everything was clean. And I was like– 

Christine: [groans] The dream. 

Em: I was like, “Are we in a like Better Home and Gardens magazine? This is like–“ 

Christine: Seriously, you are. 

Em: “–going way too well.” 

Christine: You’re the cover of it, I think. 

Em: It was going way too well. Um– 

Christine: Like holy shit, those Halloween parties they put on magazines, they’re like, “Easy, easy crafts.” And it’s like, “Fuck my life.” 

Em: And I– It never occurred to me to roast the pumpkin seeds. First of all, I don’t like pumpkin. But second of all, I was like– 

Christine: I love that. 

Em: –that feels like its own whole ass task– 

Christine: E– 

Em: –but she did it in like five seconds. And I’m like, “How, how do you move through life so fast?” 

Christine: Right, because they’re already like kinda wet, so you just like put like salt on them and stick ‘em right in the oven. [groans] 

Em: I was like, “How did, how did everything happen so efficiently?” It was like within like– 

Christine: You got a simmer pot going? 

Em: Yeah. Within an– and like cider. 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: And I was like– Within an hour, everything had been prepped, done, and cleaned– 

Christine: What a dream, man. 

Em: –and I’m like, “This feels impossi– I could never do this on my own. It’s–“ Type A people are incredible. I– 

Christine: They are. Props to all of you ’cause we’re just over here making up ideas like what we talked about in the intermission. Um– 

Em: Allison is very type A, and she’s currently doing a, a project for us that’s very type A and requires– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –me to just pat her on the back and say, “Thank you for helping– for doing all this ’cause I certainly can’t.” And– 

Christine: [laughs] I live in a house with zero type A people except Leona, so I’m counting down the days– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –’til she turns like 14 or something and can answer the phone or do something useful for me. 

Em: Well, I was telling Allison, I was like, “I feel like sometimes I’m just like the heart Planeteer on Captain Planet’s team–“ 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “–‘cause it’s like–“ 

Christine: The heart Planeteer. [laughs] 

Em: “–‘cause you’re doing like really hard important things that require hours of like brain power, and sometimes I’m like, ‘I’ll help too.’” 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: And everyone’s like, “Aw, you could tell a joke and keep me entertained while this goes on." 

Christine: Yeah, “You keep, keep the, keep the tea coming, okay?” 

Em: I’m like I, I know I joke about being a personality hire, but sometimes when I realize what she’s capable of and my brain could never do, I’m like, “I really am just here to make you laugh while you work.” It’s like– 

Christine: Yeah, but like you work because, you know– I mean, it’s en-entertainment. 

Em: We balance each other out very well. But I– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: It was one of those things where I was like, “I feel really guilty I’m not contributing, but I also– the– it would be better for everybody if I leave it in your hands and just– and tell you how great you are.” 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: “That’s as, that’s as good as we’re gonna get.” Um, anyway. 

Christine: That’s very n– 

Em: Wow. Look, Allison, I complimented you twice in this episode. You’re so lucky. Um. 

Christine: Wow. Good, good for you. Now, your turn. [laughs] 

Em: Your turn twice. Thank you. Love you. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And– [laughs] 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink. 

Christine: I love you too, Al Pal. 

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