E457 Segway Fun Facts and Inflatable Birthday Tiaras

TOPICS: CINCINNATI MUSIC HALL, LITTLE MISS LAKE PANASOFFKEE AKA MAUREEN “COOKIE” ROWAN

---

It’s Episode 457 and we’re wishing Gio a very happy 10th birthday! Today Em brings us to Christine’s hometown for the very haunted Cincinnati Music Hall. Then Christine covers the case of Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee now known as Maureen “Cookie” Rowan as she’s just been identified after 55 years! And please don’t leave your buckets of formaldehyde gel laying around where we can see them… and that’s why we drink!

If you have any information relevant to Maureen “Cookie” Rowan’s life or death in 1971, contact the Sumter County Sheriff’s Office tip-line at 352-569-1915 or via email to sumtertips@sumtercountysheriff.org

---

Transcript

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors]

[intro music] 

Christine: Is it right h–? Sorry. Welcome to our podcast. It’s a medical show– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –where we diagnose each other with no real medical expertise necessary. Is it like here? 

[Christine crouches on her chair, leaning back and poking at a spot on her hip] 

Em: Yeah! 

Christine: Like in– That’s your hip flexor, dude. I think you gotta stretch that out ’cause if you’re laying down, you don’t have the room to like contract it, so it’s probably really tight. 

Em: [chuckles] Okay, Dr. Christine over here. Um– 

Christine: I mean, listen, I told you this is my new medical show, Dr. Christine– I’m just kidding. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Please don’t– I think someone can probably sue me for that. And it’s, and it’s probably warranted. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So uh, allegedly, uh, it’s your hip flexor. 

Em: But it’s also, it’s also a little up in my tummy. It’s like right– It, it’s like under the belly– It’s like in my pelvic area. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s probably your hip flexor or your psoas muscle. 

Em: Fuck– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: What do you do in the middle of the night? Why do you know that? 

Christine: Honestly, thank you so much for asking. I was up till 3:00 a.m. last night, and I was looking up all these different acupressure points for, um, falling asleep, and it wasn’t working, uh, obviously. 

Em: Well, well done, psycho. That, that worked. 

Christine: I’ve done a lot– [laughs] I’ve done a lot of, um, somatic work, uh, trauma release exercises, that kinda thing. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And the, the hips carry a lot of trauma and carry a lot of tension and stress. And so, um, when they start acting up, uh, you know, you can kinda pinpoint what’s, what’s happening. 

Em: I do carry all my, my stress in my butt, fun fact. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay. That’s interesting. So yeah. 

Em: She’s, she’s always a little tense. She’s always tight, you know. 

Christine: I would say stretch your hip flexor ’cause I feel like– Or at least stretch it, and see if that’s where it hurts. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And then you’ll know like if that’s the thing or, um– Now I just– [Christine leans to her left, twisting to the back a little] Sorry, my back is so effed, dude. This is why I’m doing these things all the time ’cause I’m like– Everything hurts. I need to like figure out how to fix myself. 

Em: What are you doing? What’s, what’s, what’s– Why does your back hurt? 

Christine: I was just stretching. 

Em: Oh. Okay. 

Christine: I don’t know. I just– Old, I think? [laughs] 

Em: Mm, okay. 

Christine: And I carry a four-year-old all the time. And it’s like– I don’t know. 

Em: Does she actually wanna be carried these days? I feel like she’s just on the go. 

Christine: Yeah. [sighs] No, the second they start to walk, they’re like, “No, I wanna walk.” And then they’re like, “Walking is a lot of work. Can you carry me?” Like they literally become adult– 

Em: [laughs] After six months, they’re like, “The allure’s– The magic’s over.” 

Christine: Right? It’s not exciting anymore. And they’re like, “Can you carry me?” And it’s like, “So I can like look at my toy while you carry me, and I don’t have to do any physical activity or look where I’m going.” 

Em: It’s– 

Christine: And it’s like, I mean, I get it. I would ask to be carried too. 

Em: It’s interesting that that feeling starts so young because it never ends. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Like I still would love to be carried instead of have to walk. 

Christine: She does move a lot. I think it’s just very, um– When she– When it’s like time for bed, she’s like, “Carry me upstairs,” and I’m like, [grudging tone] “Okay.” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: But then, you know, anywhere else, she’s like, “Let me just zoom around at lightning speed and knock over everything and everyone I can.” Um– 

Em: [chuckles] She– Okay. 

Christine: So really it goes between two sides of the spectrum. Yeah. 

Em: Weirdly, her and Hank are, uh, in the same place. [chuckles] 

Christine: Oh, yeah. What is his take on, um, being carried? I assume he does not like it. 

Em: He doesn’t mind it. I mean, he doesn’t want it, but like if I have to carry him, he never fights me on it. Um– 

Christine: Yeah. Gio goes like this [low grumbling noise]. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like he doesn’t squirm, but he goes like [grumbling, annoyed noise] like he’s freaked out. 

Em: [chuckles] He kind of just like, like does like the, like the– like goes catatonic. Like or– 

Christine: Yeah. They like freeze, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like they like, “Ah!” Yeah. 

Em: I think he knows if I’m picking him up like there’s a real reason for it. 

Christine: Something’s occurring. He’s gonna be placed somewhere. Um. 

Em: Yeah. But I, I, I didn’t– I meant more like he’s, uh– What’d you– You said something about how she’s just like– kind of just runs into everyone or runs into everything? 

Christine: Oh, yes. Very like, uh, hyper speed like, um– 

Em: Yeah. I like to say at the dog park that he’s exactly– 

Christine: Tanz– Tasmanian Devil. 

Em: He’s exactly knee b– knee– uh, exactly knee height. Um– 

Christine: Ah, that’s a dangerous, dangerous height. Leona’s just getting to exact counter height, and I’m like [sighs]– 

Em: Fun. 

Christine: –“God here we go.” Yeah. Yeah. They’re always– 

Em: Is she bonking her head on everything? 

Christine: Um, she’s been bonking her head, her 99th percentile circumference head, on everything since the moment she entered my womb. Um– 

Em: [chuckles] Perfect. 

Christine: Yeah. Uh, where, where is Hankers? Oh, you’re at– You’re not in your home, are you? 

Em: No. 

Christine: ’Cause I was gonna say, what a beautiful beige piece of art you have. [chuckles] 

Em: Thank you. [laughs] I– Yeah, we– I think we made fun of the art last time I was in here. 

Christine: I love to talk about hotel art. 

Em: I know– 

Christine: It makes me laugh every time. 

Em: Well, how does this one make you feel? [Em leans their head to the side, making the painting on the beige wall behind them easier to see. It’s an abstract painting with large blocks of red and orange.] 

Christine: Um– 

Em: Not good? Me either. 

Christine: It looks like the backrooms a little bit. 

Em: It does– Every– I don’t know why people think beige– 

Christine: Not the hotel, the picture. Yeah. 

Em: I get they’re like, “Oh, it’s warm. It’s a warm temperature color.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And I’m like, “But it’s also–“ 

Christine: What is warm? What do you mean “warm”? Like warm like to my soul? ’Cause that doesn’t feel right. 

Em: It’s like, “I think it sh–“ 

Christine: It doesn’t feel warm to my soul. It just feels like brown. 

Em: Like it just feels obviously– Like it just feels dirty. Like it’s so yellow it becomes brown, and then it’s just– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –dull. 

Christine: And then that gets kind of grungy and dingy, and it’s like– [sighs] Yeah. 

Em: Anyway, uh, the painting is boring. [sighs] Yes, I’m in a hotel, and, uh, I will be home later. [laughs] 

Christine: Yay. Hooray. 

Em: Uh, and Hank is, uh– He’s good. He’s just chilling. He got a scratch on his nose at boarding– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and I wanna beat up whatever puppy hurt my puppy. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And I was like, “Who did this to you? You give me his name,” and Hank wouldn’t snitch, which I, I guess I can respect. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Yeah. [sighs] Anyway– 

Christine: That means he’s got some real like partnerships in there though. Some r– 

Em: Yeah. Or someone’s threatening him. I don’t like that. Um, so anyway– 

Christine: Fair enough. 

Em: –if your puppy came home and said that he scratched a puppy in Burbank, you give me his name, and we’re gonna tussle. 

Christine: Maybe it was an accident. 

Em: I don’t know. And I don’t care. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, anyway, so yeah, there’s, uh– I was just in Texas, which that’s the reason I drink this week is that I got to have a q– It was quite an honor. There– 

Christine: It’s like a whirlwind romance you had for a day or two. 

Em: I did. It was– In total, I think it was like half a day of traveling, and then I spent a day there, which was nice. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, but I was just there super quick. Um, two listeners named Trace and Cynthia– They are in the theater world, and they’re ver-very big in Austin, Texas. They’re very, very successful. Like I just watched them on Instagram last night win like a bunch of awards for a different play that they put together. Um, and I guess they– 

Christine: What’s their, uh, stu– Do they have like a, a– like a– 

Em: I, I wanna double check, but I think it’s called, uh, Bottle Alley. Let me double check. I don’t think– I think they work through this theater company. I don’t know if it’s their theater company. Um, but they work with the Bottle Alley Theatre Company in Austin. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And, uh, their names were Trace and Cynthia, and they listened to forever ago my– I think it was a three-parter or a two-parter for Harry Houdini. 

Christine: That was a like a classic episode. 

Em: It was– It’s still to this day one of my favorite, uh, stories I’ve covered, and it’s one of like my favorite fascinations to tell people about still. But I guess they listened to that, and in it– I guess it was around when Hamilton came out, and I was like, “This needs to be a Hamilton kind of play. This needs to be a play.” Um, and they literally turned it into a play. And so, um– 

Christine: That’s just amazing. It’s amazing. 

Em: It’s so cool. So they, um, reached out, and I was able to, uh, fly into Austin for their last showing of it which was great. And– 

Christine: That’s so fun. 

Em: I wanted to tell you– It was so cool ’cause my– All I knew is that there was a play about Houdini. I didn’t know anything else. I assumed it was– When I heard “inspired by my episode,” I assumed it was the episode from beginning to end for some re– I just thought it was like they were gonna cover what I covered, but they actually, um– Theirs was about ten years after Houdini died and everyone getting together to do the final seance of him. 

Christine: Yes! My favorite part of the story. 

Em: And, uh, what was so interesting about it is I, I thought this was going to be “I’m going into a local theater and sitting in an audience and watching people on stage,” but it was like one of those live interactive theaters. And so they rented out like this historic landmark in Austin. It was this old spooky Victorian manor– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and every room there were different people playing different parts, and you got to see– You could walk through the house, but you could see all– everything that was happening the night of. And– 

Christine: Oh, cool. 

Em: So you could go into like this one room where they were doing a seance and one room where, um, his– uh, Harry Houdini’s protege was doing magic tricks, and you could go into this other area, and– At the– In some way each of their story lines all end up kind of merging into you going to– everyone walking into the carriage house and watching them do the full seance together, and it was very, very cool. 

Christine: That is– That’s way– That is not what I expected. 

Em: No, it’s so much cooler than I thought. 

Christine: That sounds kickass. Yeah. 

Em: Um, and so it was very nice. I met everybody the– It was like an insanely talented cast. Um, it– Everybody was so nice, and a we– I think every single person in that theater company listens to us because– 

Christine: They were– Those photos you posted were so sweet, and I was like “This is like just such a charming group of people. I don’t know them, but they seem lovely.” 

Em: It– Every single person was so like, like obscenely kind. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: Like it was like just so– They were so wonderful. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] “Obscenely kind.” 

Em: I don’t– 

Christine: You should put that on your brochures for next time, Trace and Cynthia. 

Em: “We are obscenely kind. Please come to our plays.” 

Christine: No, not even “we are obscen–“ Just like quote, “Obscenely kind,” podcaster, you know, Em Schulz. 

Em: No– [laughs] They were just so wonderful. And then we all went out to a bar afterwards, and I ended up be-becoming like Instagram friends with all of them and all that. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: But they– And they, they put out like such great stuff. As soon as they wrapped this one (I was there for the closing night), they had awards for like the next two days to go to, and they won awards at both of them. And then now they’re, I think, writing something else or– All the casts that I now follow on Instagram, they’re already rehearsing for other shows. So– 

Christine: Uh, so yeah, let’s fucking follow the train, man. How exciting. 

Em: Yeah. So if you see anything from, um, Bottle Alley Theater Company, please go. 

Christine: Let me– What I’ll d– 

Em: If you live in Austin, go, go see their shows. 

Christine: Cool. I just love to find– 

Em: Um, and especially if it’s written by Trace or Cynthia, they, th– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It was just a very great experience. I’m so glad I went ’cause it was, it was very impulsive. It like– We found out like I think a week or two before. 

Christine: Yeah. They were like, “This is a long shot.” And Em was like, “I’ll be there.” [laughs] 

Em: They, they did tell me, uh– ’Cause we all went out afterwards, and they’re like, “Yeah, we were just like at a bar, and I think– and I was just like, ‘Fuck it. Wouldn’t it be crazy if they came?’” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Honestly, this is your sign if you’re out there, and you’re like, “I don’t know. They would never sa–“ Just fucking try it. Who knows? 

Em: Just try it. 

Christine: People like us exist, and we’re fucking nuts. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like I, I was like– If I didn’t have like a kid and would plan and travel, I probably would have showed up too. I don’t know. Like– 

Em: Free will is a crazy thing when you use it right. 

Christine: It is. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And then when you’re a Gemini and you’re like, “What can I do today?”, and it’s like– Someone hands you on a silver platter– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –like, “Why don’t you fly to Austin for a day?” It’s like, “Well, I can’t not,” you know? 

Em: And it, it turned– Yeah, it turned into like a great day. It was like– Ho-honestly one of the best days I’ve had in a really long time was like– I just– Everything planned out very well. Like I did my classic waking up way too fucking early, which is so out of character, but I got a lot done in 24 hours. And, um, it was, it was, it was very nice. And I was telling them– I don’t know. 

Christine: Where did you stay? Haunted hotel? 

Em: No, I stayed at a hotel that was closest to the airport so that way I could get the most done. Um. 

Christine: Mm. Mm-hmm, makes sense. Makes sense. 

Em: But– 

Christine: Wh-what was the art like there? Was it warm and brown? 

Em: Honestly, the art was about this level. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: It– 

Christine: Yeah, that feels airport hotel to me. Yeah. 

Em: I didn’t stick around to look at the art. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I, I left very quickly, and maybe the art was responsible for that. Um– 

Christine: I guess you had other things to do in the city of Austin, Texas, than sit in the hot– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –the hotel at the airport. Yeah. 

Em: Well, so I did– I don’t know if they will do this, but I was very, um, demanding by the end of the night that they make this– they try to shoot for this being a, a regular like– You know how every Halloween, it’s like “Best Things to do for the Halloween Season in This City”? 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: I was like, “You have to bring this back next year.” 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: “ And you have to keep doing it.” So if for some reason next year, th– the– As we’re speaking it’s 2025. If you see this during a Halloween season in the future and you see The Last Seance of Harry Houdini as an event, you have to go. It was very cool. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: They had– There was a whole bar area where they like were making little– like themed drinks and– 

Christine: [groans] 

Em: –it was very wonderful. It was– It– 

Christine: How fun is that. 

Em: And everyone was so nice. So everyone– 

Christine: Austin’s cool too. 

Em: Everyone wanted me to, to tell you hello. So, “Hello.” [chuckles] 

Christine: Oh, hello. Oh, I’m so honored. I just loved like, like, uh, living vicariously, and it was, um, so nice to not go somewhere and be social– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –but to like feel like on – like I was like there in spirit. It felt like, “Oh, Em’s just– Em will handle the, you know, the social an–“ 

Em: I handled it. 

Christine: “–socializing on my behalf,” which happens a lot. 

Em: You know I, I love to hold court. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Oh, and also, uh– this is last thing I’ll say about it, but– 

Christine: Yes, you do. 

Em: –um some people who have been like listeners forever, forever ever, I, I don’t know how they knew people through this theater company, but they also bought tickets to this, somehow knowing I was gonna be there. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, and so I got to meet like, like people who– like I recognized their, their usernames because– 

Christine: No! 

Em: –because they’ve been around that long. And so– 

Christine: That– That’s a– Yeah, that’s a, that’s a commitment. 

Em: Like people who used to send us like some of like the OG like, um, like fan mail and like and– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: –follow our like early Patreon livestreams and stuff, I think. So– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Anyway, thank you to everybody. I’m s– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: I– It was a wonderful ego boost. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –and, uh, it was a great, great show. I’m– Like it’s– It was super cool to see. So– 

Christine: Aw, I’m so happy. 

Em: Other than that, the reason I drink is I found a new empanada lady and, um– 

Christine: [gasps] Where? 

Em: –and I– 

Christine: Burbank? 

Em: She goes, she goes to my dog park. Um– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: And then the not so good reason why I drink is because my hip hurts, which I– we’ve discussed already. So– 

Christine: Well, I’ve, I’ve handled that for you. So– 

Em: Thank you. Why do you drink? 

Christine: Go stretch your hip flexor. Um, so I’m actually being boring today. I’m just drinking a sparkling [in British accent] water. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Uh, this looks like the most generic like Aldi brand something ever. 

Em: [laughs] It does, yeah. 

Christine: Oh, it’s German. That makes sense. Um, so– 

Em: They’re like, “We’re not here for the flair. You’re gonna like what’s going on in the inside.” Yeah. 

Christine: Please, yeah. “Sit down and drink.” Um, and so I’m drinking that. But the reason I drink, which is kind of similar to yours in a way but not, uh, I was at the bookstore in my neighborhood where I feel like I’ve made so many cool connections with people who are familiar with the podcast or who, um, have seen the book– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and then– like our book. And then the guy who is the manager there, I chatted with him the other day, and he’s like, “Oh, we always make sure to keep like a copy of your book up.” And– 

Em: Aw! 

Christine: I know. It was really really sweet. And I– So Leona and I went a few days ago, and we’re sitting in the back, and she’s eating her chocolate babka. And, uh– Or as he always says, “It’s pronounced babka [pronounced “bab-kuh”].” And I’m like, “Okay, chocolate babka.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And we’re in the back eating it, and, uh, Leona looks– goes, “Look, Mommy.” And they have both of our books on the local authors, uh, wall. And I was like– 

Em: That’s so cool. 

Christine: –“Oh my god, my dream come true. Local authors.” So I’m in like the Kentucky section. I was like so geeking out. We’re sitting there. I swear to God, a few minutes later, these two women come in. They’re like kind of like classic like yoga pants, young moms, like clearly just like out doing stuff and getting shit done. And they’re sitting there, and they’re talking about plans and stuff. And then all of a sudden, one of them stands up and goes, “Oh, this’ll help,” and they pull down our book. And I’m like, “I’ve never seen this happen in my life.” 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Like somebody in the wild. Like– 

Em: I’ve never seen that. 

Christine: It was– I was so– I was like, “I have to leave. I have to leave.” But I sat down, and I was like, “Just see what happens.” And she starts flipping through the books, and she goes– or through our book, and she goes, “Okay, okay, here, write this one down.” And she starts– They literally, Em, started planning a road trip. 

Em: Shut up. 

Christine: And I’m sitting there going, “This can’t be happening.” And she says to her– 

Em: Did you say something? 

Christine: I was so– Like no. I just was sat there, like stunned. 

Em: I, I don’t think I would have said anything either. I would have just been like, uh, like locked the fuck in, like just mesmerized. 

Christine: I was locked in, and I said, [whispering] “Leona, look. Look, Leona.” And she like turns around– 

Em: She doesn’t give a shit, does she? 

Christine: No. She was like, “That’s your book.” And I was like, “I know.” And I was like, “I don’t think they know I–“ 

Em: “Say it louder. Say it louder, Leona.” 

Christine: I know, right? I was like, “I don’t think they know I wrote it.” And she’s like, “Well, that’s too bad.” And I was like, okay, if– maybe it wasn’t meant to be, but, um– 

Em: [chuckles] Humbled so fast. 

Christine: I know. I was like– But it was just crazy. And I, I– And then– Oh, then they go to the back flap and start reading. 

Em: Oh, and they see your face. 

Christine: So uh, fortunately for me, my presentation in the local coffee shop at 8:30 in the morning is a little bit different– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –than the photo we took six years ago in which I– my pre-child, uh, spray tanned, uh, short-short romper and heels. Like definitely a different vibe. And so I was like, “There’s no way in hell they’re gonna recognize–” They did not. But they start reading. They go, “And That’s Why W– Oh, this is a podcast.” The other one goes, “It’s a podcast?” And they’re like, “Okay, write that down. We can listen to it on the way.” And I was like, “This is a crazy–” And I was gonna say something then. But then they– And also they were a little intimidating ’cause like I said, they were those kind of like yoga mom types– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –where I was like, “Oh, I feel like already kind of on the outs.” So then I was like, “Oh god, what if I walk up and I’m like, ‘That’s my book,’ and they were like, ‘Okay?’” [laughs] I don’t know. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: I just felt really weird about it. But I was like, “You know what? I’m just gonna enjoy this moment.” And the fact that they– Oh, and then they went to one of your sections– or, um, one of your stories, and they said something like, “Oh my god, did you know he was a doctor before he killed those people– or before the hospital?” 

Em: Get out! 

Christine: And, and she goes, “He was? Like I thought I knew, I thought I knew everything about the story.” And I was like, [in a high-pitched, excited tone] “This is crazy!” Um– 

Em: Wow. Oh my god. I– To be a fly on the wall. 

Christine: Also part of me was worried they were gonna be like, “Oh, this is terrible, and it sucks, and these people are idiots.” [laughs] 

Em: Y– 

Christine: So I was like, “I’m just gonna let them have their opinion and leave it alone.” 

Em: That’s– And you know what though? I mean, that’s just– That’s so stinking cool. That’s so stinking cool. 

Christine: Em, it was like– I like literally took a picture. I was taking a picture of Leona, but I just zoomed in to like– 

Em: Right, right, right. 

Christine: I was like, “I need to prove to myself later that they were actually holding our book and like reading the About Us section,” and I was like, “This is mortifying.” 

Em: I’ve never even– I– It’s wild to me that people read the About section because I, I don’t do that. So, um, it’s weird that someone was curious about like who we actually are. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I– If, if only it said local author, uh– 

Christine: I know. I mean, it does say– 

Em: Well, I guess it was in the local author section, right? 

Christine: Oh, it was in the local author section. And at one point, Leona like ran to the other room, and I went, “Leona!” And then it occurred to me like, “Oh, shit. In that like– In the acknowledgements, I write like ‘To Leona,’ or whatever.” So I’m like, “If they really were, um–“ 

Em: If they were listening, if they gave a shit– [laughs] 

Christine: “–more aware– If they were actually listening to me, then maybe they would have figured it out.” 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Anyway– 

Em: That’s so neat. 

Christine: So I thought you’d appreciate that too, ’cause it was just like one of those wild like “I can’t believe this is actually happening and I’m witnessing it.” ’Cause I only go to that coffee shop like every other week one time. So I’m like– It’s not like I’m always there. 

Em: That’s– 

Christine: It was just a very bizarre moment. 

Em: –still so cool. Well, I, I just– 

Christine: And then she didn’t buy the book, by the way. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: She put it back, and I went, “I–“ 

Em: Well– 

Christine: “–I’ve clocked you, lady.” 

Em: [sighs] If they took a picture of anything as inspiration, I’ll take that. I was like– 

Christine: They were taking notes. Th-the one woman was writing everything down. They’re like, “We could stop here.” I mean, it was so cool. 

Em: I mean, in this economy, just screensh– just take pictures of the book. [laughs] It’s fine. 

Christine: Seriously, I don’t expect you to literally buy the book. I’m totally kidding. 

Em: Um– But, uh, piggybacking– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –when I was in Austin, I was hanging out with one of my friends, Selena, and she, um, she was like, “Oh, let’s go to this bookstore. I think you’ll really like it.” And it was a bookstore we had a book signing at. And I was like– And it was, it was the one– You’ll remember this one. It was the one that was like three floors. 

Christine: Yeah, what was the name of it? Oh, oh– 

Em: And– 

Christine: I still have a ton of shit– Didn’t we buy those tiara– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –those inflatable tiaras? Okay. 

Em: Literally, we stopped at the tiara section again. 

Christine: That– We each bought them one– I bought one for my stepmom. You bought one for your mom. I think, if I– if I’m guessing, it was a hit with your mom ’cause my stepmother– 

Em: It was a hit. 

Christine: –lost her damn mind, wore it the entire night, wore it to her next Christmas event and told everyone like, “This is my tiara.” So– 

Em: The only reason my mom doesn’t wear the inflatable tiara is because she has two actual jeweled tiaras. [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Oh, so does Ellen. Um, so does Ellen. And the reason it was a f– 

Em: But th-this is her travel one. Yeah. 

Christine: And this was why it was a fun joke is ’cause she gave me one of her tiaras before my wedding– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and then I was like, “I’m not wearing this at my wedding.” It was the day before my wedding, and I’m like, “I already have my hair. I’m not wearing a tiara.” And so she’s like, “Just take it in case you change your mind.” Then like two weeks later, she was like, “Why have you not given me my tiara?” 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: And I was like, “I thought you gave that to me.” And she’s like, “No, it’s mine.” And so I had– 

Em: Was it the something borrowed? [laughs] 

Christine: I guess so. And I was like, “Well, I guess if I didn’t wear it, I don’t get to own it anymore,” so I gave it back to her. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: And so then when I gave her the inflatable one, it was kind of like a “haha, here’s another tiara for you.” 

Em: Nailed it. 

Christine: Who the fuck has– The fact that your mother and my stepmother both have real jeweled tiaras is crazy. 

Em: And then we gifted one to my grandma for her 90th. I don’t know why everyone in this fucking family– 

Christine: Oh, she now– 

Em: Everyone but me has a tiara. 

Christine: A real tiara? 

Em: A real one, I think, yeah. 

Christine: Oh, I thought you meant like, uh, you had gifted her a inflatable one. 

Em: No, I don’t– 

Christine: I was like, “That’s fun.” No, she– 90th birthday? She deserves a real tiara. 

Em: She does. She deserves whatever she fucking wants at 90, yeah. If it happens– 

Christine: [chuckles] That’s right. 

Em: Um, anyway, sorry for the glare on my glasses. They’re kind of– It’s kind of stressing me out. But whatever. 

Christine: No, it actually kind of matches the painting behind you. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Those like weird bars of light. It just kind of looks like– 

Em: I know. It’s like a– Anyway. Um, no, I don’t have a tiara. I don’t want one, Mom. I feel like she’s gonna hear this episode, and she’s like, “Oh, now I know what to get you.” 

Christine: Actually, I was gonna say, “Em, Em doesn’t want one, listeners,” ’cause now I feel like we’re going to get all sorts of weird– 

Em: Yeah, I’m good. I like my baseball hats. I got one right here. It’s my f– I don’t– I– I’m good. I got things for my head. Um, now, a DeLorean? If you would like– 

Christine: Now, that is where we can begin the conversation. 

Em: Well, I only say that because it is November 5, which is the anniversary of when Doc Brown discovered time travel. 

Christine: Ah– 

Em: And by the way, it’s the 40th anniversary, and tonight, the other reason I drink is because I’m– They’re playing it for one night only in the theaters again tonight, so– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –be excited. 

Christine: Oh– Well, I have something to say, which I forgot until you mentioned the date. Today is Gio’s tenth birthday. 

Em: Shut the fuck up. No, it’s not. 

Christine: And I really, I really cannot believe that. It keeps slipping my mind because my brain can’t accept it. 

Em: That can’t be true. No, no, no, no, no. Because– That’s not true. 

Christine: Oh, okay. Is it his ninth? 

Em: Well, I went to his first birthday on– in 2018. 

Christine: No, that was 20– 

Em: 17? 

Christine: –17. 

Em: So he’s eight. What? He’s not ten. He– I certainly will fight to the death that he’s not ten. 

Christine: Okay. Alright, alright. Maybe you’re right. Maybe you’re right. 

Em: But maybe I’m wrong. I’m just in denial. 

Christine: I think I just am a bad pet parent, and I forget the year that he was born ’cause it feels like so long ago. 

Em: We, we only started being friends– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –2017, right? 

Christine: Yeah, so– But– 

Em: No, the podcast started– 

Christine: No, we started the podc– 

Em: So we started 2016. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: We became friends October 30, 2016. 

Christine: Yeah. His, his birthday is November, so you probably went to his– 

Em: So it was a month into our friendship. That feels– 

Christine: –first birthday. So that means that this is his tenth birthday. 

Em: Wow. Oh my god. So what do– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: So he deserves a tiara. He’s fucking 70 in human years. 

Christine: He has a tia– He has like four tiaras. [laughs] 

Em: What are you going to do for little Gigi for his b-day? 

Christine: He’s my special boy. Oh my god. Well, it’s a beautiful day. It’s like 65 degrees out. Gorgeous. We’re probably gonna take him out on the town. Um– 

Em: What are his– Give everyone an update on Gigi. What are his favorite things to do these days? 

Christine: Oh my gosh, he loves to eat cat shit– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and he loves to steal Leona’s socks and place them in really inconvenient places throughout the house. Um, he loves socks like still, and it’s mostly Leona’s socks ’cause they’re everywhere, and he will like hide them in our bed. Um, and he’s just a very good boy, and I love him. 

Em: He’s a sweetie man. 

Christine: And he and Leona are always like– She’s always like, “Gio!” ’Cause he’ll like try to eat a French fry out of her hand and like, “Mom, Gio’s trying to eat my french fries!” 

Em: I– 

Christine: And I’m like, “Kids, get along, please.” Yeah. 

Em: I love that, I love that they love each other. They’re so sweet. 

Christine: They do. And they annoy the hell out of each other. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So they are kind of like siblings. Um, but it’s really sweet, and he loves all his little brothers and his little, little baby. And um, he’s just a, a very good he– happy, healthy boy. So– 

Em: Good. Yeah, does he have any doctors appointments coming up to guarantee he, he is perfectly a wonderful, healthy, happy boy? 

Christine: Yeah, you know, uh, he got his allergy shot, so he should be set on that front. [laughs] 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: Um, he got all his vaccines, and he’s getting a lot of exercise, and, uh, he’s eating that good, uh, healthy food that I– um, we did an ad for and then I convinced myself into buying it, and I love it. Um, and he’s happy. Yeah, he's a good boy. 

Em: He’s a good man. 

Christine: Yay. 

Em: And he still naps, right? And he still naps? 

Christine: He’s right here napping. [Christine starts turning the camera] 

Em: Oh! [singing] ♪ Happy birthday to you / Happy– ♪ 

Christine: How do I even turn this thing? 

Em: ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪ 

Christine: Ah– 

Em: ♪ Happy birthday, little Gigi / Handsome baby boy, Gio ♪ 

Christine: Hello? Clearly, I don’t know how to use my camera. [Christine continues turning the camera, trying to get the angle right. Gio, a fluffy brown and black dog, is curled up on the floor next to Christine’s chair.] 

Em: ♪ Happy b-day to you ♪♪ Oh! Just a happy man! 

Christine: Hi, bud. Gio. [Gio looks up at Christine] 

Em: Gigi! 

Christine: Hi, bud. Happy birthday. 

Em: Hi. He doesn’t look a day over five. 

Christine: Did you know it’s your birthday? He’s my puppy dog. 

Em: He doesn’t even look 10. 

Christine: I’m sorry that was not my reason I drink. I– It just like– 

Em: What the hell is g– We got a real great tour of your laptop though. 

[Christine moves the camera back but it gets stuck for a moment, showing a close-up of Christine’s laptop lid with a sticker of a creepy doll face with “Haunted Doll Watch” written around it. Christine then fixes it, angling the camera back up and into place, facing her again.] 

Christine: Yeah. My bad, my bad. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Wasn’t the plan, I swear. Okay. Yeah. Uh, he just needed a little shout-out. But yeah, he’s, he’s a very good boy. 10? You really got my hopes up for a minute. I went, “Phew.” ’Cause Chewy– 

Em: I was convinced there’s no way. 

Christine: Chewy sent a card saying, “It’s your tenth birthday.” And I went, “How dare you?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And then I was like, “Oh my god, they would know, I guess, ’cause I must have signed him up years ago.” So I was like, “Ah–“ 

Em: Well, no. I, for some reason, thought that the podcast was 2018, which make us 2017, so he would be two years younger or whatever. 

Christine: Yeah, unfortunately. [sighs] I’ve been trying to find a way, way to, to say anything but 10. But yeah, that’s it. But I can’t believe he’s 10. 

Em: Oh… 

Christine: That means in February, it’ll be his gotcha day, and I’ll have had him ten years. Wow. 

Em: So you gotta have a big day with him. You gotta let him have– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –some PB and– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –you know. 

Christine: And it’s like right around Valentine’s Day, so it’ll be very romantic. 

Em: Oh! I’m so excited to hear about it. 

Christine: You and Hank probably have very similar activities when it comes to ac– 

Em: We– 

Christine: –uh snuggling and sharing snacks. 

Em: I did teach him the word “snuggle.” That’s very nice. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: Um, and he recently got all of his shots. But he got them all at once, and I guess he has the same thing that I have, so it’s genetic, which is that after too many vaccines, you get like swollen lymph nodes. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: And it freaked me out because I w– I gave him a little tushy scratch, and all of a sudden, he had a big ass cyst on his leg. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: And I was like, I was like, “How does it start this early? Oh my god, he’s fucking one.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: I was like, “How is there–?” 

Christine: That’s scary. 

Em: So I had a full crash out, thinking it was like something worse. And then I had to call the vet and they were like, “Mm, he just had vaccines. He’s fine.” [laughs] 

Christine: He’s just feeling a little owie after his shots, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Anyway. 

Christine: Um, this dog is now like, “What the hell do you want, lady?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: He like– He’s like, “Why did you wake me up?” Now he feels like there’s something, um– 

Em: Oh, let me see the sweetie man’s– 

Christine: Ah! I’m not trying to– 

[Christine moves the camera again to face Gio, accidentally zooming in to close and showing a close-up of his chest.] 

Em: Oh my goodness. A, a nice chest shot of his furries. 

Christine: I think I need to– [unintelligible off camera] 

[Christine zooms out, showing Gio now sitting up, looking up towards Christine as she gives him head scratches.] 

Em: Hi, handsome man. Oh, hi, Mimis. Oh, just a happy boy. That’s my first love right there. It’s my sweetie boy. I loved him before I loved Alison. 

Christine: That– 

Em: Oh, look at his little tushy. You really did zoom in just kind of to brag about how great his hair is. Oh my god. 

[As Gio stands up, moving away, Christine moves the camera back to its original position.] 

Christine: I mean, his hair– [laughs] 

[The camera is still zoomed in, showing a close-up of Christine’s face as she fixes it.] 

Em: And now the monster herself. [laughs] 

Christine: How do I get out of here? 

Em: We get it. You have a, you have a tight jawline. We get it, Christine. 

Christine: I have giant pores. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] No, you don’t. 

Christine: And bad makeup abilities. 

[Christine fixes the camera, setting it back in place and sits down again in her chair.] 

Em: No, you look great. 

Christine: [sighs] Anyway, okay. Uh, so that’s that. Uh, wow, what an intro, but we had a lot to catch up on. 

Em: I know. Well, I haven’t talked to you in a long time. People think that we see each other every week, but sometimes it, it stacks up. 

Christine: Em’s always in like T-Texas. Uh– 

Em: Well, I do, uh– 

Christine: Florida. 

Em: And, I, I will state again, um, publicly just because I think I think, I think I– I think in my head I say it out loud, but then I don’t. Uh, but I can bring a microphone anywhere. So anytime– 

Christine: Right, right, right. 

Em: But I, um– ’Cause I did think about it. I was like, “Maybe I just stay longer.” But honestly, the only reason I came back is because this fucking dog– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and it’s expensive to put them somewhere else. So if only– 

Christine: And you miss him. 

Em: And that too. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And– If only I had a partner who could be home and take care of him while I’m gone, but– 

Christine: Yeah. Is Alison, um, still on the run? 

Em: Girl, ask a question that you want an answer to– 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: –uh that is not gonna sound super depressing. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, she is still not home, but that is okay. Um, we– Hm. How much do I want to say? I– I’m– I– Not– I’m making it sound a lot worse than I am. I’m trying to think of behind the scenes stuff that’s going on. We are totally fine, but given the state of the world, we are, you know, a little scared about how, you know, how everything’s playing out. And so we have looked at contingency plans to maybe live elsewhere. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And that’s not super duper on the radar or anything, but we have thought of it as a potentially serious hypothetical. And so the way that we have framed her being gone this whole time, it’s like, “Let’s just take advantage of getting to– you seeing your family a lot and, um–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Just, just in the event that we decide we gotta pull a plug and get out of here. Um, which– 

Christine: Like get out of LA? 

Em: No, l-like– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –get out. Um, like may– 

Christine: The Earth? Or just the country? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m like how far are we talking, baby? I don’t, I don’t know how much to intervene here or whether– [laughs] 

Em: No, honestly, we haven’t um, we haven’t figured out, uh, a super duper plan yet. And not that there’s even actually a plan that’s in effect at all, but we are just trying to come up with plan B’s and C’s and D’s if things are getting worse and worse for marginalized people, and I know queer people are on that list. And so we’ve just been having talks about what-ifs. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: And in the event that one of those what-ifs becomes an actual reality, I, I think Alison’s gonna be really grateful that she spent so much time with her family. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Just, um– So the, the goal obviously would be my, my true homeland, Canada. That’s obviously the goal. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Your true homeland. 

Em: Which would actually work out a lot better because if we went to Canada, I would like to think we would just move to like essentially the East Coast, you know– 

Christine: Right, right, right. 

Em: –and then we would be back on the same coast together. Um, but anyway– 

Christine: Halifax is cool. 

Em: Anyway, that’s another secret-not-so-secret update is that, you know, we’re just planning to have to plan in case there’s something we have to plan for. So, um– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and so as much as I have not liked Alison being away, I have really fucking loved this like m-moment of being independent and like getting to do whatever I want at whatever time I want. Not that Alison’s super controlling, but we live in a small space, and we live– we have completely different sleep cycles. So there are times where I have to be quieter, or, you know, she likes things cleaner, and so I’ve really loved this like kind of like almost bachelor year, which is great. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, and she’s enjoyed a lot of time with her family, and I have learned a lot about living by myself and taking care of a-another living creature. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, so anyway, the– I– I’m not trying to like throw this like, you know, big bomb at anyone, but you know, there’s, um, just stuff behind the scenes, and so, I’m– I– 

Christine: Yeah, I mean, it’s like things are happening rapidly in the world, in our lives. Like things move– I feel like things are starting to move at such a rapid pace in everyone’s orbit right now. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like I don’t even know in a month where everybody will be standing, what we’ll be planning or doing. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like it just feels like things are so up in the air. 

Em: Well, Alison and I– The day that that guy became president again, um– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: –we came up with a list of non-negotiables, and if any of those things happened, then we would leave. Um, and it just– Every day feels like we get closer and closer to that list– 

Christine: Have you looked? ’Cause I’ve like looked into it, and it’s like very, very difficult to get any sort of– 

Em: Yes, we actually have very low qualifications to get in. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, and we have– We? Alison has done obviously a lot of the type A, um, research on all this. Uh, and I’m very grateful for her on that. But we have, we have a list of places we’re looking at, but C-Canada’s the dream place because it, it doesn’t feel like we’re moving too far– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –that too much would change, but Canada doesn’t want us, it seems like. So– 

Christine: Right, right, right. Well, they’ve, they’ve definitely had to put up some big like signs– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –like, “Hey, slow your roll.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “We get it. We get it.” But– 

Em: So anyway, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s not– Nothing’s set in stone or set in anything. It’s just like– Amongst the talks, we’re just like, “Well, let’s think of you being gone this whole time as like a potential perk in the event that something happens.” So, um– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Anyway, didn’t mean to like throw that on everyone too, but– 

Christine: No, listen, I was curious. Uh, I was curious. 

Em: –the world is scary. 

Christine: It is. That’s why we drink. [chuckles] 

Em: And that’s why we drink. Uh, and of course, if something were to happen, there will be updates along the way, but because it’s so not a reality yet– 

Christine: Nebulous? 

Em: –it hasn’t even been, you know– Everyone will know ’cause I– obviously, I won’t be able to shut up about it if something actually happens. So. 

Christine: Right, right, right, right. 

Em: Anyway, uh, story time? I think you’re really going to like this one, Christine. 

Christine: Ah! Okay. 

[glass clinks - start of ad break] 

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors] 

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break] 

Em’s Story – Cincinnati Music Hall 

Em: Okay. This is, um– [sighs] Remind me of the place you got married, if you– 

Christine: In Cincinnati? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, The Transept. 

Em: Fuck! I thought, I thought this was– Never mind. Wrong building. Shit! 

Christine: Monastery Event Center? Which one is it? Music Hall? 

Em: This is the Cincinnati Music Hall. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s next door. And, uh, no, it is basically the same ’cause it’s l– next door and it’s, um– We took pictures in front of it, and it’s, um, like a, a huge deal in this– in Cincinnati. [laughs] So I, I am, I am fucking amped. Okay? 

Em: I’m glad. But I was really– I really thought this was the place you got married ’cause I remember you saying all the way– 

Christine: Well, that place is more of an ev-event hall, like sort of next to the music hall, you know. 

Em: Well, anyway, I thought you were super duper gonna like this one, but you’ll just super like it. Um– 

Christine: I do super duper like it ’cause I have seen things there. I saw, um– 

Em: What have you seen? 

Christine: I saw Lore. I saw Lore, the podcast. 

Em: Oh! [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, I mean like I’ve seen shows there. [laughs] I’ve seen shows. 

Em: And then you said– I thought you meant you’d seen something paranormal. 

[Christine’s video goes black] 

Em: Oh! And you went away. 

Christine: Sorry. 

[Christine’s video reappears] 

Em: I thought, I thought you said you’d seen something and I thought you meant spooky, and then you said, “I saw Lore,” and I went, “What kind of fucking lore?” [laughs] 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: Okay. Well, understood. 

Christine: The, the suspense. No, I saw, uh, Aaron Mahnke perform there on Halloween a couple years ago. 

Em: Ooh! 

Christine: Um, yeah, it’s a really cool spot. 

Em: Well, it is incredibly super haunted, which I don’t think I need to tell you. 

Christine: [gasps] Yeah. 

Em: Um, okay. 

Christine: I only know a couple stories, and I– They’re kind of passed down, so I don’t really know what’s true and what’s not. 

Em: Well, let’s see together because again, these were notes I did a few days ago. It was when we were supposed to record originally. So– 

Christine: Right, right, right. 

Em: –this is gonna be one of those moments where we [sighs] learn along the way together. So this is in Cincinnati, if you can believe it: the Cincinnati Music Hall. 

Christine: Ay! 

Em: And it is a music hall. Those were the two first notes that I had the audacity to write down. 

Christine: Do you remember we were– We went to– We did a ghost hunting tour when I was pregnant, and when we were at that potter’s field – 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and we were like walking around with those– That was like on– in the park in front of Wash– or in front of Music Hall. So that– Yeah. 

Em: Funny you say that. 

Christine: So you’ve been in front of it. [laughs] 

Em: Funny you say that. 

Christine: Oh! Okay. 

Em: Um, well, ’cause I was gonna say that they host a lot of ghost tours there, or they– they’re– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It’s a part of a lot of ghost tours in the area. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, and– Oh, yeah, s– ’Cause– So here we go. The Cincinnati Music Hall: it is a music hall event space, does both performances and exhibitions. It is a National Landmark since 1975. It hosts the Cincinna– Cincinnati Ballet, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, the Cincinnati Opera, the May Festival Chorus, and the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, but before all that, it was a potter’s field – 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –as you just mentioned– 

Christine: Right, okay. 

Em: –or a mass set of graves for unclaimed bodies. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I love that you brought that up. Um– 

Christine: I d– I am too. It just– I was like– It just popped in my head. 

Em: I was like, “Well, okay. Can confirm that that research was true. Sick.” Um– 

Christine: Yay. 

Em: And here we go. In 1818, those are the earliest– That’s the earliest year we can find that makes mention of these potter’s fields, although it could be older, but we know at least since 1818 there’s been a potter’s field there. Fun fact: Cincinnati – do you know when it was established, Christine? 

Christine: [sucks in a breath] 

Em: You don’t have to know this. I don’t know when Fredericksburg was established. 

Christine: 1810? I don’t know. 

Em: 1788. 

Christine: I was gonna say 1788, but then I was like, “Maybe that’s Ohio.” A-anyway. 

Em: Um, well, established in 1788, and this potter’s field is from 1818. So only like 30 years into Cincinnati existing, this– 

Christine: And they’re like, “Oops, everyone’s dead. What do we do? I guess we put them in right here.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, oy. 

Em: Well, just think of like– I mean, imagine 30 years. That’s how long we’ve– So if our birth was Cincinnati being established and today is when this potter’s field was created, that’s not a long time. It’s like some of the earliest people who died in this town are buried there. 

Christine: Right. It’s like the first residents. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So some of the earliest bodies are buried, uh, in this potter’s fields, and, uh, some of these earliest bodies would have been victims of– which– I don’t, I don’t mean to be like quizzing you here, but do you know some of the earliest– 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: –disasters of your town? 

Christine: Uh, I’m guessing yellow fever? 

Em: Close. 

Christine: Or, uh, tur– 

Em: Or I don’t know. Maybe they’re the same one. Cholera. 

Christine: Cholera. That– Yeah, I was thinking cholera, yeah. The water. 

Em: So of, of all these bodies in the potter’s field, a lot of them are victims of these cholera outbreaks. There was two of them. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, and then the Cincinnati floods. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: I guess there were some really gnarly floods over there. And the Moselle explosion? Do you know about this? 

Christine: I have no idea what that is. 

Em: Cool. So cholera alone– Let’s talk about that for a second. Um, in the first round of cholera, which, uh, was early on in Cincinnati’s history, 2% of the population died in the first outbreak. 

Christine: [sighs] Jeez. 

Em: Which doesn’t sound like, I guess, a lot to some, but it is a lot. 

Christine: It’s like a small percentage, but then if you think like, “Oh, it’s a percentage of a town, yeah.” 

Em: Yeah. Still, if you know 100 people, 2 are dead now from cholera. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, in the second outbreak, 5,000 people died– 

Christine: Ooh, okay. 

Em: –so it o– more than doubled. Um, and poor people were the most affected, um, I guess because they lived by the water, and water was– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –spread the cholera? 

Christine: The water was not clean. W– Dirty wa– drinking water caused cholera. We also had a lot of pork production– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: – and it wasn’t sanitiz– sanitary the way it was handled, and things were just kind of dumped into the water. Um, remember that, that– the Bobby Mackey’s where the well f– uh, went into the– It was a slaughterhouse and went into the Licking River, and they would just dump it in the Licking River. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And so yeah, it was like, uh, not clean, and– which is funny ’cause now, of course, you think like, “Oh, waterfront property is like the most expensive,” but back then it was like the poorest people lived out by the water. 

Em: When– It’s funny you mentioned that too because when I– It was my favorite fun fact when I was a Segway tour guide– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –um because it was o– in a, in a area that now– It’s in Yorktown, Virginia, which if you have a waterfront view, it’s like a very chichi situation. 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: Um, but lobster used to be, um– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –like a disgusting food, and it was like for– Only poor people would eat lobster because they live by the water, and it’s all they can find. 

Christine: It was prison food. 

Em: But now it’s like, “Oh, I have lobster.” Like it’s like– It’s funny how it switched where if you live by the water– 

Christine: Society is so nutty. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Like you were poor, and now it means you’re super rich. 

Christine: It’s all relative. 

Em: And if you live in a city, you’re poor, but back then, it meant you were rich. 

Christine: They would call lobsters like “cockroaches of the sea”– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –’cause they had all these like little things, and they’d be like, “Yeah, these are only for like prisoners to eat,” which is just crazy. 

Em: And as a lobster hater, they should have never changed their stance. It’s– 

Christine: Yeah, you’re like, “They were right the first time.” [laughs] 

Em: Same with shrimp. Everything– They all got those creepy little big mustache feelers. 

Christine: Yeah, I’ve stopped, I’ve stopped, um, liking it as much. I used to really love seafood, and I think like as I get older, I just have– Ever since I got pregnant with Leona, I’m kind of like turned off of it. And I’m like, “Why don’t I just trust my body on that one? I don’t, I don’t–“ 

Em: That’s a good reason. 

Christine: I still, I still like it, but I’m like– I try to– I don’t know. Makes me kind of feel weird. 

Em: Of all the things I could judge you on, that one’s not gonna be one of them. 

Christine: Thank you. I figured you’d might– you’d finally support one of my food, uh, aversions you know. 

Em: If it ain’t tuna fish, I really don’t want it. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, I’m kind of getting there too, honestly. 

Em: So, uh, well, the day you stop liking canned sardines is the day I’ll respect you. 

Christine: [laughs] Okay, that’s never gonna happen. Anchovies? Are you kidding? 

Em: [laughs] So, uh– 

Christine: Anchovies are different. Okay? 

Em: [unconvinced tone] Mm… 

Christine: They’re beautiful creations. 

Em: Yeah. Well, I hope you enjoy them. 

Christine: Thank you. I will. 

Em: I, I know I stand alone. A lot of people like canned fish, but– or– And I, I can’t speak because I do like canned tuna fish, but canned sardines really is for some reason– 

Christine: I don’t eat sardines though. 

Em: I think ’cause you can see the s– You can see the color– 

Christine: No, I, I don’t eat sardines. I just eat anchovies ’cause they’re– And I only eat them if they’re like smaller and not like the fish. I don’t want to eat a fish like that. Freaks me out. 

Em: I can’t look at its face. I– That’s so fucking– 

Christine: Its eyeballs. 

Em: –creep– Oh my fucking god. 

Christine: Seriously. 

Em: Okay, we’re done. Um, I can’t even– 

Christine: Okay, we’re done. The camera falls. [laughs] 

Em: That– I have to like hold– [laughs] And we’re done. [Em pretends to start closing their laptop shut.] Um– 

Christine: And the microphone’s off. 

Em: So um, okay. The first round of cholera plus the second round of cholera, 7% of the population is dead. 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: Um, and poor people were most affected ’cause they live by the water. Uh, so with so many people dying so quickly– I mean, imagine all of a sudden 7% of the population in your area just dies. It leads to mass graves ’cause you just need to bury people fast enough. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Before they start like stinking up the place like– 

Christine: Yeah. And then it’s like people were un– I mean– Never mind. I was gonna say like it’s also like not hygienic obviously to have bodies around, so like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –you want to put them– give– lay them down to rest. 

Em: Also in like the 18-whatevers, like I don’t think they were thinking about the biological hazards the way we do. 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: Like think they’re just like, “Get rid of it,” you know? 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: So this led to the– this potter’s field overcrowding. It was already kind of overcrowded. 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: Now 7% of the population is there. And on top of, um, the field having too many bodies already, then a nearby steamboat called the Moselle exploded, killing half the people on board, which was about 150 people dead. 

Christine: What? Moselle? I don’t even know this story. 

Em: Oh, you should. 

Christine: How do you spell that? 

Em: Um, it, it– M-O-S-E-L-L-E. 

Christine: I have to ask my brother if he ever learned about this ’cause I feel like that’s something I should have learned. 

Em: Your brother feels like he’ll for sure know this. 

Christine: He would know, right? He’s gonna be like, “Duh.” 

Em: He’s gonna be, “What do you mean? That’s actually my favorite boat,” or some shit like that. 

Christine: But do you know– He’s gonna be like, “I know the [unintelligible].” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, wow. Okay. No, I had no idea. Uh, the other thing I was gonna say is– I feel like though when you’re raised like– I feel like Cincinnati is one of those weird places though where like we have our things that we’re really proud of and that we’re like, “These are our Cincinnati things,” but then there are things that you grow up and you’re like, “I didn’t know that,” like this. And then the other– ’Cause I think it’s a little bigger than like some, you know, like smaller towns– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –where you have like “your” things, and everyone knows it. I feel like Cincinnati you get like bits and pieces because I recently found out, a few years ago, that Play-Doh was founded in Cincinnati. And I’m like– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: My brother and I didn’t know that, and we’re like, “Why don’t they have like a Play-Doh thing at the museum or like–?” 

Em: Can you imagine a Play-Doh factory or something or–? 

Christine: Right? I’m like they could, they could at least like sponsor like a room at the kids’ museum or something. But I’m like it’s so weird that we’ve never known that. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: It’s just like, why? So then anyway, I just– 

Em: It feels very German though, like “Why would we talk about the fun?” You know– 

Christine: Very good point. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So uh, which– 

Em: And isn’t Cincinnati full of German people? 

Christine: It sure is. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, and apparently they didn’t want to talk about this boat explosion either. 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. They were like, “Why talk about bad parts of our history? That’s–“ 

Christine: I can’t believe it. Yeah, we were, uh, we were– We’re a big river and a big steamboat town. So um, I can’t believe I don’t know about this. I’m gonna look it up later. 

Em: Well, let me tell you about it. So, um– 

Christine: Ah, even better. 

Em: Well, I’m not gonna tell you– You will have to look it up later if you’re interested, but I will give you a quote that I think will send you into a full-blown tizzy until you research it more. Um– 

Christine: ‘kay. I’m texting my brother, “Do you know about the Moselle steamboat?” So I’ll see what he says. 

Em: So it was a– the steamboat in town. There were 300 people on board. A hu– It– 

Christine: Oh… 

Em: All– Apparently, all four boilers at once exploded or something– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –something insane, and half the people died instantly. 

Christine: Oof. [sighs] 

Em: Um, and here is the quote for you that will absolutely make you want to learn everything about it: “About a hundred skeletons had been– had to be buried here,” at the potter’s field ; “when the steamer Moselle exploded and blew the skulls and limbs and–“ 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “–blackened trunks of their passengers all over the city so that falling bodies fell through the roofs of houses, and the remains of the victims were gathered together and buried” in the potter’s field. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Literally, I– Okay. Three different sources I found– 

Christine: Is this the Mandela effect? I feel crazy right now that I don’t know about this. 

Em: Three different sources I looked up on this start their article with the fact that during this explosion the city rained bodies onto people’s houses. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Like, like bodies were just falling from the sky. Like ’cause they got– You explode out of a fucking boat into the city, and people– It was going– Imagine a body just falls through your goddamn roof. 

Christine: [sighs] [whispers] What the fuck? 

Em: Yep. 

Christine: I cannot believe I’ve never heard about this. I mean, maybe I missed something ’cause I’m like this feels important. 

Em: It, it certainly– I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Feels like your town’s Titanic or something. Um– 

Christine: Yes. Well, I mean, in Halifax, they had that big boat explosion, and– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –um it like– Half the population like had hearing loss and– Just crazy ’cause of the, the impact of that. Anyway, wild. I had no idea. 

Em: Yeah. Um, so on top of the cholera, both outbreaks, and this explosion, and– What was the other thing that people died from? Something else happened. Anyway, in total, the estimated bodies buried in this field today are like up to 10,000 people. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Like it was– And you can imagine with all that land, I don’t even think I could conceptualize what it would look like for that land to fit 10,000 bodies underneath it. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It’s gotta just be like stacks and stacks and stacks of people. 

Christine: And that’s downtown now. It’s like the– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –most downtown part of the city. So it’s just wild to think like they were like, “How about here?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: [chuckles] It’s like, “What?” I guess it’s– 

Em: It’s gotta– Like I mean, you’re probably just walking on top of people all the fucking time. 

Christine: It’s probably s– Oh, yeah. Apparently, you are. Just like bodies– 

Em: A– 

Christine: That’s why they have you give– have an EMF and just wander around. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. And not only that, but in the 1840s, part of the land, uh, that was the potter’s field– So already has all of these bodies, and thus maybe all of this energy or all these spirits and all this activity– Part of that land then built on top of it the Cincinnati Orphan Asylum. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Many of those orphans were either– They end– They either had– were became orphans because their parents died from these floods and cholera outbreaks– 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: –or they eventually in the asylum also died from the cholera outbreak. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: So the kids were also all dying. 

Christine: Of course. 

Em: Um, one source, uh, said that there was also a hospital here during this time, but other sources say the hospital was after the fact. So I don’t know which one is true. Um, but either way, many of these kids were also buried in the field, and it was very convenient. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: They were just– It was– Their backyard was a potter’s field, so they just kind of dumped the kids. Um– 

Christine: It’s crazy ’cause that orph– that asylum, um, was this like huge gothic structure, and it was like so creepy, and– but like really beautiful. And then they just fucking demolished the whole thing and put up this– in like I think the ‘70s or something, put up this like ugly like broadcasting radio– local radio station. 

Em: Ew. 

Christine: And it– it’s just a real bummer ’cause they like point to where the asylum was, like right there behind city hall, and now there’s just this junky old little building, but there used to be this like huge gothic like you know– 

Em: Eugh. 

Christine: –asylum structure thing. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And I’m like, “Imagine how haunted that thing is. Or that fucking broadcast studio sitting right there where that asylum was.” 

Em: That’s the better question. 

Christine: Creepy. 

Em: They should have had a whole Halloween segment on themselves. 

Christine: Yeah, I agree. 

Em: Well, so the asylum later sold and then became a temporary version– I think this is what they mean by like maybe it was the same at the same time or maybe they were separate entities, but most sources said that the asylum sold and then became a temporary placeholder for the Commercial Hospital and Lunatic Asylum. Yikes. 

Christine: Ah, yes. Yeah. 

Em: Um, which they just called the Pest House. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: Which I love that like if anyone was like mentally ill, they were just a “pest.” Um– 

Christine: “You just– Get to the Pest– Get, get out of here, you pest.” 

Em: “Get this pe– this pesty fucking lunatic out of my house.” 

Christine: Yeah, that’s, that’s a wild, that’s a wild– 

Em: “Put, put them where the orphans are, where no one cares about people.” 

Christine: “Yeah, put them on top of all the dead bodies.” Yikes. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Jeezle-Pete. 

Em: So, uh, and this was the temporary one because I guess they were building the actual hospital across the river, I think? Um, and so this was like the, the temporary one– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –to put people until they could put them in the permanent spot. The Pest House was used to keep people quarantined until they passed away, by the way. So this wasn’t even really a true hospital. It was more like just a holding space until you died– 

Christine: Oh, to just like hide them from the general populace. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: And then they could just be buried in the potter’s field which they were sitting on top of. So– 

Christine: Yeah, cool, cool. 

Em: I feel like a lot of people are building institutions on here with like the plan to bury the people staying in that building right outside. 

Christine: Right, yeah. 

Em: Um, one note I have is that a different source said this was also a Civil War military hospital. Could have– I don’t know more about that. I only saw that on one source. Very likely. Um, and after the, after the permanent hospital was built, the– this property was then bought– maybe you have context on this. The property was then bought by the North American Sängerbund Society. No? 

Christine: Is that s– like S-Ä (with an umlaut)-N-G-E-R? 

Em: Mm-hmm. Bund. 

Christine: Like singers? 

Em: Yeah. Okay, so you don’t know. Great. 

Christine: Like the singer group? Singing group? 

Em: Can’t wait to t– 

Christine: I mean, I know what those words mean, but I’ve never heard of it. [laughs] Like– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I know it means like a group of singers, but I’m like, “Is this like a–“ This is so annoying. Germans are so like up in everyone’s Cincinnati business. 

Em: I mean sängerbund I would imagine means “singer band,” right? 

Christine: Bund is like– Well, bund is like to bind, so like a connection. 

Em: Oh. Fun. 

Christine: So bund is like, um– So like a group or like a cohesion or like a– Yeah. 

Em: A bond. 

Christine: A bond. Exactly. Or– yeah. 

Em: Singer bond. Um, I’m trying to just white– whitewash it, American wash it, English wash it as much as I can. Um– 

Christine: It’s, it’s plenty whitewashed, don’t worry. 

Em: So fun fact, uh, this is where I take– I get away from this building for a second and just tell you about the Sängerbund Society. Cincinnati has lots of music and singing societies apparently. Did you know this? 

Christine: Um, yeah, -ish. But also I never know how much is just my mother trying to like tell me fanciful tales and how much is, is real factual evidence. So– 

Em: I feel like you’re gonna get a lecture from your mom after this. And maybe me because I’m saying the history wrong. I don’t know. But– 

Christine: I think we’re gonna hear from her one way or another. 

Em: Well, Cincinnati, maybe it’s underground or maybe it’s just not a part of your Cincinnati world, but there are a lot of singing societies. Most of them, which would explain why you’re not involved– Most of them are made up of four-part harmony German adult men. So maybe– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –you’re just not hanging out in the right groups. 

Christine: No, I am. Trust me. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Uh, my mother is part of the, uh, Germania (German) Society, and they have some singing groups. Um– 

Em: Okay, great. Well– 

Christine: It’s definitely a thing. I think probably back then it was a much bigger deal. Like it held more sway than now just kind of retired men just like singing on the weekends with their beer. 

Em: I feel like it was maybe the German or musical equivalent of like, like a Moose Lodge. 

Christine: Yes. Th– 

Em: And like no one does it anymore. I mean, I joined one, but then I realized nobody my age was there, so I left. Um– 

Christine: Yeah. It’s sort of like a, a relic from the past. It’s still fun, but like it’s not as prominent as it was back then. 

Em: Like all of our dads are on bowling leagues, so now no one does that. 

Christine: R-Right, right, right, right, right. Uh, yeah. 

Em: So yeah, this was just another version of that. Um, so these groups, uh, ended up finding others like them across the Midwest. There was a whole bunch– I guess they found out there was a bunch of German people, especially German men with an interest in singing. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: They all got together. All found each other across the Midwest, and they– 

Christine: Classic. 

Em: –called themselves the North American Sängerbund Society. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And they then created the country’s very first Sängerfest, which is– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –a traveling musical festival between different cities with big German populations. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: So if you go to the– Minneapolis– I don’t– I’m just picking a random Midwest place. 

Christine: Yeah, there are also a lot of Germans up there. Yeah, Germans are like St. Louis and, and Wisconsin and everywhere. 

Em: Well, I guess every one of them, they, they– Every year, one of them volunteers to have a Sängerfest, and everyone comes from all the Midwest cities to sing together. 

Christine: Beautiful. 

Em: When they hosted Sängerfest in Cincinnati, the society needed more space, and so they quickly built onto this, you know– It was this asylum on top of a potter’s field that became this hospital for– temporarily. And now that the hospital had moved out, the Sängerbund Society bought this, so they could have their singing fraternity there, I guess. And then they hosted Sängerfest, and they were like, “Well, we could host at our place, but it’s not big enough so we’re gonna build an addition.” Basically, that’s the s– 

Christine: Okay, okay. 

Em: SparkNotes of all this. So the original building plus its additions made up what would eventually be called Sängerhalle, um, which was– 

Christine: Ohh… 

Em: It was also called the Exposition Building. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, I know exactly. Yeah. 

Em: Okay. So that’s why it is so big is because they had to– 

Christine: That’s so crazy. Okay, yeah. 

Em: They had to build it out for all the, um, Midwest German men who sing. Um– 

Christine: W– I– I mean, what better reason could there be? 

Em: I can’t think of one. 

Christine: No. [laughs] 

Em: It also shows that like in the 1800s, we were just doing anything. Like we just had nothing but time. 

Christine: Also but like– No, really. And then it’s like, “Oh, well, uh, should this be an orphanage? Um, maybe a hospital? Um, should we get a bunch of German men to sing ‘Hallelujah’ in here?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like I don’t know. Whatever you want it to be. The world is your fucking oyster, dude. 

Em: Also I’m– This is not a diss to Ger– the German language. Although it is, you know, stereotypically a very intense language. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Imagine it’s– You’re on a potter’s field with 10,000 dead people in the ground. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Then it was a, an orphan asylum where children also died and were buried on the property. And then it was a quote “lunatic asylum” where all of the mentally ill people were also or– were also buried there. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And now it’s just a cathedral of German singing. It’s like just– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Couldn’t sound more Transylvanian to me. Just like s– 

Christine: It is. It’s, it’s haunting in every– 

Em: Truly haunting. 

Christine: –every way. Hey, I mean, imagine. Ready? 

Em: Oh boy. 

Christine: [singing in German] ♪ Schlaf, Kindlein, schlaf / Der Vater hüt die Schaf [moves down to a lower pitch] die Schaf ♪ [laughs] I’m trying to do the harmony. [laughs] 

Em: I– [sings a note before cutting off] 

Christine: [singing] ♪ Die Mu– Die Mutter schüttelt Träumelein / F– ♪ Oh, wait. No, wait. [singing] ♪ Die Mutter schüttelts Bäumelein / Fällt herab ein Träumelein / Schlaf, Kindlein, schlaf ♪♪ That’s a, that’s a lullaby. [laughs] 

Em: I– My– Uh– [laughs] 

Christine: [singing softly] ♪ Schlaf, Kindlein, schlaf / Der Vater hüt die Schaf ♪♪ I used to s– When Leona was a baby, I would sing that for like hours. So once I start– get going, it just like doesn’t stop. 

Em: The way that on day one of this podcast, you said, “I’ll never speak German,” and now you’re fucking singing it, babe. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Now I’m like, “Harmonize with me.” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. And also you s– be– by still having like a soft nice voice, like you still didn’t make it sound like, like imposing. 

Christine: That was my example to be like you can probably try to make it less like grating, you know, if you– if– I think singing also takes away a lot of the harshness because if you think about like– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –when people sing in English, and it’s hard to tell if they have like an accent or if they’re– have a dialect. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: I feel like it takes some of that harshness away. So they’re just probably tricking you. 

Em: That’s a great point because in my head the inside of these walls sounds like “O Fortuna” or something. 

Christine: “Raa!” [laughs] 

Em: ♪ Ah, ah, ah-ah ♪♪ [singing first notes of “O Fortuna”] 

Christine: Like– Yeah. Rammstein, like [whisper singing unintelligible lyrics of metal music]. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Oh, well, thank you for the reference. That actually does help. That– It does help. 

Christine: You’re so welcome. 

Em: So wow. I can’t get over– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I just– I didn’t even ask you to do that. Oh my god. 

Christine: [laughs] I don’t know why– 

Em: That’s incredible. 

Christine: I don’t know why that happened. Um– 

Em: That was a ma– That was a masterful experience. Um– 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: So the Exposition building would also host the– not the first, but the second May Music Festival? 

Christine: Oh, yeah. I know about this. 

Em: Okay. So– 

Christine: This is, I think, a more like, um, tr– like a more like, um, well-known thing around here I think. 

Em: And it, and it is hosted by the Music Hall today, right? So– 

Christine: Oh, I think so. Yeah, that probably is why. Yeah. That makes sense. 

Em: So it’s– That means the very– the second one, not the first one, but the one after that was hosted all– in that building all the way back then too. So it’s been hosted– 

Christine: That’s cool. 

Em: –since its inception, basically. Um, and what is the May Music Festival for people? It’s just a– What type of music is it? 

Christine: It’s, it’s– I’ve never been. I feel like it’s, uh– as far as I like– It was one of those things, tell me if you have something similar, but to me it was like where the only people who went were like people’s parents. Like– [laughs] It’s basically like a choral– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –choral music festival, like, like choirs, and– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And it would be like– You’d have like– My dad I think in one of his bathrooms has like a poster that says like “Mayfest,” like “1994,” and it’s like in the park, and people are sin– I, I don’t know. It just seems kind of like a very old-timey tradition. Um– 

Em: Yeah. I f– Like, like it’s like a, like a choral concert or something. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like not necessarily my jam, you know. 

Em: I– Not me, me either. If, if someone invited me, I think I would say, “No, thank you.” 

Christine: Um, I would be like, “What’s the food situation,” you know? Like are there kiosks? 

Em: What’s, what’s the– 

Christine: “Do I have to sit and watch the whole thing or can I like get up and roam?” 

Em: “What do I have to wear?” 

Christine: What do I have to wear is a good question. Like– 

Em: “How long will it be? What’s the after-party situation?” 

Christine: Like I’m gonna send you, as an example, a picture of like one of the events in Music Hall. And like I think you and I would be so far away from this that we wouldn’t even be on the same orbit as these people– 

Em: Can’t wait. 

Christine: –if this were occurring anywhere nearby. Um– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. I’m not sitting in one of those chairs down there and watching this. 

Em: Um, I’m good. 

Christine: I’m good. 

Em: I– And I– To the people who love that. I’m so glad for you. 

Christine: I respect music of all sorts. 

Em: But I don’t want to do that. That’s– I– 

Christine: It’s just not for me, this kind. 

Em: We all know I like the whimsy, and there just isn’t anything whimsical about that. [sighs] Um– 

Christine: Yeah, we need a lot more, um– 

Em: Dopamine. 

Christine: –razzledazzle. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah, as someone with ADD, I– uh, ADHD, I really need someone to– 

Christine: Like my palms are sweating looking at those rows of seats where you’re in the middle, and you can’t get out, and everyone near you is wearing like wool or twee– uh, tweed. 

Em: Yeah. It– 

Christine: Like, like help. 

Em: Also you know what it is? I think it’s because it looks like a place where I can’t laugh, and a– I– If I’m not allowed to giggle somewhere, then I don’t really want to be there. 

Christine: Fair enough. 

Em: Okay. Um, anyway, they hosted the second May, May Music Festival here, and something very m– historical to the Cincinnati Music Hall happens at– 

Christine: What? 

Em: –the second May Music Festival. 

Christine: A fire? 

Em: No, something l-less intense than that. 

Christine: Oh, oh, oh. 

Em: But– Okay, so– 

Christine: The president came? 

Em: No. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: A thunderstorm came. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: And this music festival was attended by a big businessman in the area named Reuben Springer. If Springer means anything to you in Cincinnati, it is about him. 

Christine: It– Yeah. 

Em: Um, he went to this music festival at the Exposition Building, which would one day be the Music Hall. 

Christine: And what– Sorry, what year was this? Like the 1880s or something? 

Em: Uh– 

Christine: Or was– 

Em: –I don’t– I sh– It was in the 1870s. 

Christine: Okay, okay. I’m just trying to get my brain to picture Reuben Springer correctly. 

Em: Sure. Which, by the way, reminder that 1818 to the 1870s is not a long time for this many dead people to now be in the ground. You know what I mean? And like– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Only a couple decades, true. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So a lot of history’s already happened here. 

Christine: That’s crazy. 

Em: But then Reuben Springer comes to the May Music Festival, and there is a horrendous storm outside. And remember I told you that they were going to host music festivals at this place– The, the Sängerbund Society was going to host music festivals here, but they didn’t have enough space, so they kind of just slapped together as much additional space as possible. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So they did it with really cheap materials just to get it up in time. 

Christine: [gasps] That’s not very German of them. 

Em: And basically, Reuben Springer went to this thing, and he was pissed that this world-class music that was being performed here– 

Christine: Ah. 

Em: –not only, I’m sure, visually didn’t look its best– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –but he couldn’t fucking hear anything because the acoustics were so bad because the storm outside was just pouring in through these like very thin wooden walls. It had a fucking tin roof. So like– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –remember we had a show at a place that had a tin roof– 

Christine: Yes, yes. 

Em: –and it was storming outside, and no one could even hear us? 

Christine: And we kept thinking it was aliens. We– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Everyone was like, “It’s, it’s rain or hail.” I’m like, “It’s at least hail. That’s interesting, guys. No?” 

Em: Like, I mean, we had fucking microphones on a stage, and people could not hear us. It was so loud. 

Christine: It was so fucking loud. 

Em: It’s like, who built a tin roof over a comedy club? What is wrong with you? Anyway, the thunder outside and the rain outside was distracting him from the music so much, and he was this big rich man, that he was like, “Fuck this.” And he– [chuckles] Basically he made the director– or the, the conductor or whatever literally pause the performance halfway until the storm could continue– 

Christine: What? 

Em: –which has to be so embarrassing. 

Christine: Imagine being that fucking bold that you’re just like, “I’m just going to get up and stop him real quick.” 

Em: Did he just shout from the audience? He was like, “Make it stop.” Um, it– 

Christine: Like, “Halt, everybody! Stop! Cut!” 

Em: That has to be so embarrassing. 

Christine: Like, “Cut? You’re not– What the fuck? You’re not the conductor.” Also like we were just saying, it doesn’t even look like you’re allowed to laugh in there– 

Em: [laughs] I know. 

Christine: –let alone like stop the performance in the middle of it as an audience member. Fucking guy. 

Em: Well, this all had Springer so up in arms that he decided he was going to create the Cincinnati Music Hall Association, and he fundraised the demolition of the Exhibition Building. 

Christine: [chuckles] You know, he also had like a, a tiff or something with somebody there. 

Em: Had to. 

Christine: Like there’s no– He had to have a personal investment. 

Em: Like a girl rejected him there or something, and he was like– 

Christine: Or one of these Sängerbunds like stole his girlfriend or something. 

Em: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “He’s just that good of a singer. Could never be me.” 

Christine: Man, sad. 

Em: So he was like, “Fine, I’m actually going to demolish this entire fucking building on the property.” Um– 

Christine: “Fine!” [chuckles] 

Em: “But I’m going to construct on top of it the Cincinnati Music Hall.” 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And so the only reason the Cincinnati Music Hall stands today is because this guy didn’t like that the last one had a tin roof, basically. 

Christine: Fair enough. I, I should thank you, sir, Reuben. 

Em: And in 18– It was getting built from 1876 to 1878. And the construction– Of course, I did the math for you. It was, uh– It was a 20,000 square foot music hall. Still is, I think, or maybe it’s grown. And it cost $300 grand back then in the 1870s. $300,000. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: You want to take a whack at how much that is today? 

Christine: How much– $6 million? 

Em: $9 million. 

Christine: $9 million? Oh my lord in heaven. 

Em: And Springer paid for over half of it himself. 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: I can’t imagine hating something so much that I’m willing to spend $4.5 million at least, probably $5 or $6 million to make a different version of it. I don’t have– 

Christine: To be like, “Fix the roof.” 

Em: Like what kind of money? That’s some Taylor Swift fucking money to be like, “Oh, here’s $6 mil.” 

Christine: I was gonna say, that’s like, that’s like when they say like, “Oh, that would be the equivalent of like $40 to you.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like that is probably what it was like. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Um, but during this construction, this is where they found the first round of human remains from the potter’s fields. 

Christine: [gasps] D-Did they forget they were there? 

Em: [chuckles] I guess they fucking forgot. 

Christine: It’s like, it’s like what, 60 years ago, right? 

Em: Yeah. So I guess if you dig deep enough– And so the papers at the time said that it wasn’t just like a little bit of human remains, boxes of bones were being pulled out of the ground during this excavation. 

Christine: Ooh! God. 

Em: Boxes and boxes and boxes of bones. 

Christine: [sucks in breath] 

Em: Um, and the remains had not been dug up until now, even though something else had been built on the property– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –because it was all so slapped together that they never went deep enough into the foundation to find bodies. 

Christine: [gasps] Oh. So they were like, “We’re good.” Until now. 

Em: Yeah. Which also like there was a hospital; there was a whole orphanage here. Like– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and they just never actually structurally built this thing properly. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. Well, it didn’t matter then, but now that Reuben’s gonna have a seat in this place, we gotta make it tip-top, baby. 

Em: [laughs] Well, so unsure what to do with the remains, some, not all, were brought to Spring Grove Cemetery. Can you imagine if this is the cemetery you live on top of? That’d be crazy. 

Christine: [chuckles] Uh, I live right by it. It’s huge. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s one of the– It’s like the biggest in town, and it’s very famous. And it’s like an arboretum and a– the gardens. 

Em: Oh, wow. 

Christine: Like you can do like all these big garden tours. It’s– I’ve done them a lot ’cause my stepmom’s really into plants. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, and they do a lot of tours and stuff. My mom just did one there, and we used to go bike riding in there. It’s beautiful. 

Em: Perfect. Well– 

Christine: But yeah, very haunted and very big. 

Em: Well, a lot of– 

Christine: And it is literally four– It’s like two or three minutes maybe by, by car. 

Em: LOL. At least it’s not the one that you live on ’cause then that’d be triangulating 

Christine: No, thankfully. That would be wild. 

Em: Uh, so these remains were brought to Spring Grove Cemetery, at least some of them were. And that becomes a constant thing as more and more remains are found. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: Only– That only some of them are brought to the cemetery and some of them are just reburied somewhere else on the current potter’s field property. Um, I don’t know why they picked– how they picked that. 

Christine: I wonder how they determined that. That’s kind of creepy. 

Em: Well, in the 1920s– So that was in the 1870s, they were digging all this up, and they found all these boxes and boxes of boxes. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: In the 1920s, that’s 50 years later, during another wave of construction, workers unearthed three coffins. And one was actually, interesting– interestingly enough, was from a– One of the coffins had a fully legible headstone from the 1830s which was almost 100 years old at the time. 

Christine: Wow. A headstone. 

Em: And it was perfectly legible. It’s– 

Christine: And it was underground? 

Em: It was underground. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Which like what is that story? 

Christine: They just like dumped it– on top of it. Yeah, eugh. It’s so creepy, dude. 

Em: Um, before they could do anything about these bodies, some grave robbers heard about it and stole some of the pieces. But as for the rest of the remains, they were reburied not just on the property, but in the new elevator shaft they were constructing in that moment. 

Christine: Yes, I re– I know that sto– I, I know of that story vaguely that the elevator shaft has bod– Yeah, yeah. 

Em: I can’t understand why on earth you would go, “Oh my god, we found bodies under this building we’re trying to build. Let’s put them back in the building at a different spot.” How does that fucking make sense? 

Christine: It’s a very Christine move: “We’ll just put it over here.” 

Em: “Well, there’s a hole we just dug.” 

Christine: “That fixes the problem.” [laughs] 

Em: Maybe they were on a time crunch. I don’t know. Well, soon after this, construction workers found even more remains. 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: Including– In one of the locations, they found 65 graves. 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: And they nicknamed that area “the Valley of Death.” 

Christine: Woof. Okay. God, that’s a lot. 

Em: So that’s 65. Then– And that’s just in one section they found. There was other bodies they found, then the three bodies they put in the elevator shaft, then the boxes of bodies from 50 years ago. 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: And now in 1969, even more remains were found under the auditorium. And in 1988, the same remains buried under the elevator shaft were found again. 

Christine: That’s– Okay, that’s what I knew, but that they found bodies. So I thought I had it mixed up, but it was just– 

Em: They found them– 

Christine: –they also put them there, then later they were dug up. Oh god. 

Em: They found them there. They put them back in there, then they were found again. Uh, and I’m assuming they found additional remain– remains nearby, but– 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: What’s extra creepy? So let’s go back to– What year was that that found the– the elevator shaft story? That was– 

Christine: ’80– Oh, oh, the first one. 

Em: The 19– Which one– Where the fuck was the elevator shaft? Oh, okay. So in the 1920s, they found those three coffins, one with a fully legible headstone. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And then grave robbers came and took some of it, but whatever was left, they put in the elevator shaft. So– 

Christine: Okay, okay. 

Em: –it was found in the 1920s, put in the elevator shaft at that point, and then 60 years later in the ‘80s, they were re-found. But what you didn’t know before this moment was that there were several other remains nearby, and only three of them had been found previously. And what– 

Christine: Uh– This is crazy. It’s like every 20 years they’re like– They must know what’s gonna happen. It happens every time. It’s like– Shouldn’t– 

Em: Imagine one of those cameras we can see a body under the ground– 

Christine: Yeah, like the lidar. 

Em: –just scanning the whole floor. 

Christine: I mean, it would just be like– And I guess I get it like, what are you gonna do? Tear the whole building down so you can–? I mean, I, I don’t know what you would do, but it’s just like– 

Em: Well– 

Christine: –bananas to me. 

Em: –the extra eerie thing of, like I said, not just finding those three bodies, but to know, in future hindsight, that there was actually several more bodies they had– they were just– they were digging next to but didn’t know about. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: In the ‘80s, when they re-found these remains that everyone knew about, what they ended up finding in addition to that was over 200 pounds of bones. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: And then they were all reburied in another area on the property, not Spring Grove Cemetery, just another area on the property. So they just keep finding and reburying, finding and reburying on the same fucking property these bones. 

Christine: And it’s like bones, so it’s like it’s not like every person gets their own plot. It just feels like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –they’re kinda just getting tossed in. 

Em: Some of them, some of these remains specifically, were transferred to the University of Cincinnati for research. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, but most of them were just reburied on the property again, which like this is in the 1980s. Like that feels recent enough that we should have known to put them in a fucking cemetery. 

Christine: Yeah. I wonder if, uh, it was like there’s like a, a precedent? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like, “Oh, well if you find bodies in, in a spot that used to be a graveyard, you can’t like move them,” you know? 

Em: I guess so. 

Christine: Maybe there’s something like that. But it seems weird ’cause it’s like– it was a– 

Em: You’re still up– uprooting it and putting it somewhere else. 

Christine: –kinda– I was gonna say, kind of a half-ass graveyard. It wasn’t really official. It was just kind of “slapshot”– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –like thrown together. Anyway. 

Em: Um, well most recently, um, in 2016/2017, which is not that long ago. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: That’s within the last ten years. Um, construction under the, um– either under the orchestra pit or near the orchestra pit had people finding even more remains. This time they found– 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: –four more bodies and six grave shafts. 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: And they were anticipated to be reburied in Spring Grove Cemetery. It’s assumed that they were, but I did not see any update. 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: It– Like the, the article I found was like the– “Breaking news. We found more fucking bodies here. Can you believe it?” And then it was like, “We’re–“ 

Christine: Everyone’s like, “Yeah, we can.” 

Em: [laughs] And they were like, “The plan is Spring Grove Cemetery.” But I don’t know if that actually happened. 

Christine: Oh, okay. It never like– Yeah. 

Em: Um, so anyway, these are just two of my favorite quotes that I found in all these articles: “Each time construction is done at the Cincinnati Music Hall, more bones are unearthed.” “Not a foot of ground lies under the Exposition Building unoccupied by moldering bones.” Eugh. 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: On top of this, um, Cincinnati Music Hall is near other formal barrier– burial grounds. Um, uh, Washington Park used to be– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –a spot with multiple burial grounds all sharing the same property. So it was like two or three different burial grounds all combined into one big plot– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and then they just built Washington Park on top of it. 

Christine: Yeah. And it’s beautiful, and it has a dog park, and it’s free, and they have a bar– 

Em: So– 

Christine: –and they have like outdoor bar, and they do shows and flea markets and like craft fairs, and it’s right in front of city hall. It’s so beautiful. And then someone– I-inevitably, if I’m your friend and I’m there with you, I go, “Hey, guess what?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And Blaise is like, “Don’t start.” And then I’m like, “There are ghosts underneath us. Hundreds, thousands.” 

Em: All I’m saying is that first thing you said was “dog park.” First thought I had was: “So the dogs can literally dig up bones.” 

Christine: I mean, yeah, probably. 

Em: And Hank would, by the way. He’s in a real digging phase these days. 

Christine: Oh, it– That’s rough ’cause Gio does that too, and it really fucks with my yard. 

Em: Oh, I– 

Christine: My yard? I have like three feet of green, but he fucks that up. 

Em: One of the things, one of the things I’ve had to learn is how to like replant like all this stupid fucking grass because– 

Christine: He literally ripped my whole rose bush out. I’m like, “That’s the only plant I have. Leave it alone.” 

Em: He is truly a living, breathing dowsing rod because the way that he– He always digs and finds like a really intense water source. Isn’t that so creepy? 

Christine: [gasps] He is a dowsing rod. 

Em: Like at the dog park, he– I’m so sorry to everyone at that dog park. He dug a real crater, uh, recently, and he found literally the pipes that led to like the water fountain. 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: And it was like– I was like, “How did you know that was there?” Anyway– 

Christine: Hank, he’s a super dog. 

Em: He’s a pain in my ass. So– 

Christine: Yes. [laughs] 

Em: Anyway, fun fact, over 80 bodies, uh, were, uh– oh, were found. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So we were talking about Washington Park. Um, when they were building Washington Park’s parking garage, if you know where that is. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, yes. 

Em: That alone, during excavation, they found 80 bodies. 

Christine: Oh, ’cause it’s under– It’s actually under the park. So that would make sense ’cause you have to climb up– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –into the park. Oh, ew. So it really is just like– 

Em: It’s just everywhere. 

Christine: –right in there. You’re just surrounded. 

Em: So it– It’s not even the Cincinnati Music Hall, although that is my topic today. Um, it’s just the areas everywhere are just– Everything is just a potter’s field in Cincinnati. 

Christine: Wow. Yeah, I guess so. Oops. 

Em: So for obvious reasons, many people believe Cincinnati Music Hall is haunted. I mean– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –the bodies alone, but the fact that there’s also so much dark history. There was the explosion, the cholera outbreaks, the floods. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: There’s the orphanage; there was a quote “lunatic asylum,” and a lot of people with like– who probably just had some rough luck– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –all getting buried there. Um– 

Christine: And, um– 

Em: And then bodies were being found and reburied and found reburied. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: So they’ve had no closure. 

Christine: And dis– like discarded or dis– reburied. And also like I’m assuming a lot of these people are nameless, identity-less, and, uh– 

Em: Yeah, they’re, uh– potter’s field . They were unclaimed bodies, so we don’t know who they were. 

Christine: Right, unclaimed. And on top of that, like you have a place where people are performing, and people are getting emotional. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I mean, as emotional as you can get at like a choir show, but, you know, like other s– like an opera or like where per– People are– Like theaters you know– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: They’re already really active– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –uh energetically, so that would probably just mix it all up, you know. 

Em: Yeah. Or like what if you’re singing a song from their favorite time period or something, you know? And– 

Christine: Ahh. 

Em: I– I’m sure there’s– 

Christine: [singing] ♪ Schlaf, Kindlein, schlaf ♪♪ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Is that it? Is that the one? 

Em: I was thinking o– I mean, I don’t know what song I was thinking, but I’m sure there’s something where like you’re accidentally like– not conjuring something, but you’re inviting stuff in or, you know, something like that if you’re– 

Christine: Connecting with something. 

Em: –connecting or anything– welcoming people in, welcoming spirits in. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, anyway, it’s just super fucking haunted. The Travel Channel actually named this “One of the Most Terrifying Places in America.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Congratulations, Christine. Um– 

Christine: Thanks. 

Em: People– This is just some of the things people report. They report an eerie stillness when they’re alone, a sense of dread when they’re alone– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –something staring at you, cold chills despite the heat outside or even inside. There’ll just be like pockets of really weird air. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: People feel a presence near the ballroom. They’ll see shadows in photos. They hear something, uh, being dragged through the halls. I actually– There was one guy who said that he– It sounded like someone was dragging their boots and a gun through the hall, and I was like, “That’s fucking intense.” 

Christine: Wait! I feel like they told us that on the ghost tour or on one of the ghost tours where they said like– It sounded like the dragging– Yeah. Ew! I feel like I’ve heard that. 

Em: Which is– would have– Although I didn’t see this in a lot of sources, that would validate the history that this was a Civil War hospital at one point. 

Christine: True, true, true. 

Em: But it sounded like, uh, like a guy who was just dragging like his gear through the hall. 

Christine: His like rifle or something. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Ew. 

Em: People also hear angry whispering. They hear maniacal laughter. They hear giggling. They hear doors opening and closing by themselves. They hear heavy footsteps that don’t seem to be hiding that they’re heavy footsteps. They’re just very loud. Phantom violin music. There’s a woman singing in the halls in the morning. Um, there are a lot of security guards who are like, “I know that I’m alone here, and yet it sounds like there’s five people upstairs.” Um– 

Christine: Mm-mmm. That’s– Yeah, when the security guard gets freaked out, that’s when I’m like, “Okay, I trust you ’cause you are supposed to know these things.” 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Um, somehow– I don’t know how she did it, but she’s done it again. The fucking Lady in White was there. 

Christine: Oh, she’s everywhere. Of course, she’s going to go to a Sängerbund, uh, festival. 

Em: [laughs] She’s like– 

Christine: She heard my lullaby. 

Em: She’s like, “I’m here for eternity. And you’re telling me that there’s singing? I’m absolutely going.” 

Christine: There’s– The, the Ger– German singing? 

Em: I am so convinced at this point that it is only one fucking Woman in White, and she just knows the way through every portal into every haunted location. 

Christine: Oh, you’re right. And she’s just like kind of summoned. She just like follows the wind, you know, wherever it takes you– takes her. 

Em: I’m so over her. She is all over the place. Um– 

Christine: Um, I can’t get enough of her, Em. [laughs] 

Em: I– [laughs] If– You know, if I am to be a ghost that haunts, I hope I have the superpowers she does. 

Christine: I mean, you literally dressed as her. You must– Even though you– You have like a frenemy thing going on, I think. 

Em: I think there’s a– It’s– You know, I haven’t admitted to myself yet that it’s, uh, a jealousy. 

Christine: Right, means a little something. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I just don’t know how she does it. And like, stay out of my stories. I’m so tired of you. Like give someone else a chance. 

Christine: [laughs] This isn’t about you. 

Em: So uh, yeah. A woman in a white dress has been seen, uh, apparently dancing as if she is having a good time at this singing musical stuff. 

Christine: [sighs] Just having a good time. 

Em: Sh– Also there are formally, formally dressed, uh, very fancy people dancing together in one of the rooms. Another woman is seen dancing by herself, or she’ll walk down the hall and turn and see you, and then she’ll fade away in front of you. 

Christine: Mm! 

Em: People have also seen apparitions in old-fashioned fancy clothes watching the performances, um, and thought they were actors. So they were sitting next to someone in the audience and was like, “Oh my god, this is like so immersive. Fun!” 

Christine: What? That is creepy. 

Em: And it was just like someone that does not exist anymore. 

Christine: Hey, the Houdini show should do a show here ’cause I feel like that would be right on li– right in line with their whole thing, you know? 

Em: [laughs] Can you imagine if they accidentally summoned Harry Houdini? That’d be crazy. 

Christine: How fucking cool. Finally. 

Em: I know. [sighs] I’ve been waiting for that one. 

Christine: Took him long enough. 

Em: So um, no, a lot of people have said like after the fact, “Oh my god, I love that you guys used actors in the audience, so it felt like we were all really there.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And they’re like, “No, that, that wasn’t us.” Um, others have watched shadow people walk through the theater and the halls from one end of the room to the other. Actually, a lot of staff said that in interviews where they were like– 

Christine: I’ve heard that. Yeah. 

Em: –“I’d be looking up, and I would look at one of the halls, um, from downstairs, and I’d look up, and I would just see a full person just walk across.” And– As if like– 

Christine: That’s not cool. And that feels like very theater. Like I feel like a lot of theaters have like people walking on like a catwalk or like in the audience– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –like shadow figures. I don’t like that. I don’t think I like that. 

Em: [chuckles] I’ve been saying that a lot to myself recently when I’m just like, “I don’t like that.” And– [laughs] 

Christine: “I don’t like that.” [laughs] I just simply don’t. 

Em: Like, “I, I don’t know what we’re gonna do about that, but I don’t–“ 

Christine: What more do you want? 

Em: “–I don’t like that actually.” Um, employees– Oh, th– Oh, no. One employee– This is a good one. One employee was actually on stage with his kid, who was about Leona’s age, when the theater was empty, I guess doing some last minute work or rehearsing or something. And the kid asked, “Who is that, daddy, who’s sitting in the box and waving at us?” 

Christine: No, thanks. 

Em: And the theater was totally empty. So that was in box number nine. I guess box nine has it– is it known to be the haunted box. 

Christine: Interesting. 

Em: Investigators have also sat on the stage and seen someone, uh, from the seats waving at them, which confirms what this little kid said. 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: Um, but they have just been standing on stage, and all of a sudden, you just see someone stand up from the seat and just wave at you. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: It’s like so intentional. Um– 

Christine: And it’s– 

Em: I like– 

Christine: It– That’s what creeps me out is like it’s intentional– 

Em: I can get– 

Christine: –and like they clearly see you. 

Em: I can get behind it being residual and like we’re– you know, you’re walking across the hall ’cause that’s what you were doing right before you died. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: But like the second you’re intelligent and– 

Christine: You’re being acknowledged. 

Em: –you know that I’m looking for you– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and then you stand up and literally put yourself in front of us? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Which like again, we’ve said this a million times, but how funny is it that like they’re doing exactly what we want, and they’re thinking they’re probably making us so happy, and then we’re just like, “Ah! Get away!” 

Christine: “Ah!” Yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re like, “Oh, we’re just trying to–“ Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] Well, uh– Oh, this also most happens in, uh, box nine, in the box nine seats. And the seats in the theater are also spring-loaded, by the way, so as soon as someone gets out of them, they should pop back up. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And there are some seats that will just stay down no matter what. And it f– it’s only when you feel like someone’s staring at you. 

Christine: Yuck. ’Cause they do. They’re like those old-timey seats that just like “boing!”– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –right back up. Yeah. 

Em: And it just– Someone’s sitting there. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: Another person saw a balloon with a weight on it (I guess to like be a centerpiece at a table), uh, watched it float down the hallway, and the words they actually used was it “hopped” down the hall by itself. 

Christine: Ew! [laughs] 

Em: No, thank you. 

Christine: Like a little kid took it. Oh my god. 

Em: Oh! Yeah. Um, one employee actually heard– kept hearing the– Over at the box office, he kept hearing like the concierge bell or the customer service bell dinging. And when he would check, nobody was there. Then he would leave, and he’d hear the dinging again. He’d come back out; nothing was there. He’d leave, and the dinging would happen. And eventually, the, the last time he checked it, he felt something tug on his shirt, and when he looked down, he saw a whole-ass child in old-fashioned clothing– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –staring at him. Which like I– It didn’t even occur to me that could be one of the kids from the orphanage. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: There, there are als– 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: There are other little kid apparitions all seen through the building, especially– 

Christine: I’ve heard the kids ones, which always surprised me, but I guess it does make sense with that orphanage. ’Cause I was like, “This place isn’t like very kid-friendly,” but that does– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: They must be from the orphanage. Um, but they’re, they’re seen a lot. That’s would also explain some of the giggling that people hear. 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: Uh, if anyone has ever felt their own clothes being tugged, maybe it was a kid. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And in one area of the theater that’s now like the backstage area, um, right behind the curtains, apparently, one group saw a little girl over there. Um, she just appeared in front of them and told them not to go in the basement because bad things happened there. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And when they looked back, she had totally– she was gone. And– 

Christine: What do you think happened in the basement? 

Em: I have no idea. But in my mind, the basement is where they all got buried. 

Christine: Right? I don’t like that. 

Em: Like did something worse happen first? 

Christine: Did anything else happen? Yeah. Did something happen to her? 

Em: I– 

Christine: Was she buried there? 

Em: I have no idea. But she just went away, and– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: –and nobody knew who this little girl was. They– She– 

Christine: Goodness. 

Em: Yeah. Now, the freight elevator– which the elevator shaft stories– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: The freight elevator used to move all by itself between floors, even when nobody was pressing a button to even call the elevator. Employees would say– This one guy in particular, he had a very creepy interview where he was like, “You would be 50 feet away from the elevator, and you would watch the button turn on like–“ 

Christine: Ah! 

Em: “–as if someone called the elevator in front of you. And then the elevator would start moving to your floor.” 

Christine: And then you’re like, “Do I walk backwards now?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like, uh, “You take– I’ll take the next one,” you know. [laughs] 

Em: “Do you want me to go in there? Like what do you want?” 

Christine: “Or are you calling it for me?” Yeah. Like, oh god. 

Em: The creepiest a-accounts are definitely the security guards there. There was, uh, one watchman who, uh, heard knocking on the main door when it was snowing out, and when he went to look out there was nobody there, and there were no footprints in the snow leading up to the theater. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: Another time, he heard music playing from nowhere, and so he went looking for it. And when he got on the elevator, his whole body started to tingle, and for like days after that, he could not go to the elevator without his body getting the same tingling feeling. 

Christine: What is that about? 

Em: I have no fucking clue, but I certainly hate it. 

Christine: I also hate it. Thanks. 

Em: Another watchman, this is a quote, who said, “You hear music playing somewhere late at night when you know no one is there, and when you get there, you find it coming from some other place. You go to that place, and then you hear it coming from another place.” So the music would ch– You would play chase with this music. 

Christine: Yush! Okay. 

Em: And then another quote. This is a long one, but it’s super worth it. “The weirdest and strangest noises would occur at intervals all night long. Rappings on the ceiling, under the floor, on the doors and windows, the sound of stealthy footfalls behind me, or of loud trampling before me.” 

Christine: [sucks in a breath] 

Em: “The crash of heavy timbers thrown from the ceiling, glass dashed upon the floor, of heavy bodies being dragged over the planks. They never touched me, but I always knew when they were around by an icy chill, a thrill as of electricity, a feeling that–“ 

Christine: [whispers] Jeez. 

Em: “–what the French call a peau de poulet, or goose goose flesh, goosebumps.” 

Christine: Ooh-hoo-hoo! 

Em: Uh, “They never annoy me now by mere knocking and rapping because I’ve gotten used to it. So used to it that sometimes when people have really knocked at the door I didn’t open because I thought it was only the dead that kept knocking, knocking, knocking.” 

Christine: Oh, wow. Whoa. So they’re like, “Oh, it’s a ghost,” and like, “No, this time it’s actually a real person.” 

Em: It’s like, “I’m actually out here.” So– 

Christine: Surprise. 

Em: Despite the activity, none of the spirits seem dangerous, which is good. 

Christine: [sighs] Well, that’s good. 

Em: But for those who are skeptical, one of the music directors literally said, “Okay, then come here at 3:00 a.m.”– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and like challenge them. [laughs] “Okay, do it.” 

Christine: Yeah, you fucking be security. 

Em: Um, the only TV show I saw that has been here was not Ghost Adventures, but Ghost Hunters. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And for those who can access it, um, it is season 9, episode 26, but it is nearly impossible to find unless you’re willing to like get one of those like weird random side channels. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. And like download something shady? Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Um, so I did not watch it, but it does exist. And, uh, if you’re interested, the Music Hall does have, uh– It is a location on many ghost tours, and I think they do their own ghost tours too. 

Christine: They do. That’s newer. That was when I moved away, and I remember it being like, “Damn it!” 

Em: Well– 

Christine: Like, “Of course, now they do it.” 

Em: Go get– 

Christine: But yeah, I haven’t been yet. I would love to go. 

Em: Go get you a ticket, but– 

Christine: It– Next year. 

Em: Anyway, that is the Cincinnati Music Hall. I’m sorry it was so long, but I wanted to get everything. So. 

Christine: [applause] 

Em: I wanted to do your town justice. 

Christine: That was so lovely. I feel like I learned so much. I had no idea. I feel like those people at the bookstore– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –learning from our wonderful book. 

Em: Well, now you can go over to Leona and be like, “Did you know?” And then she can tell all of her little kid friends and be like, “There are bodies in there and below.” 

Christine: “There are bodies everywhere.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “My mommy told me all about it.” Yeah, it’s normal. It’s normal behavior. 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] Oh my gosh. 

Christine: Um, cool story. 

[glass clinks - start of ad break] 

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors] 

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break] 

Christine’s Story – “Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee” aka Maureen “Cookie” Rowan 

Christine: Okay, so we are back from the intermission. Speaking of Music Hall, uh– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –we just had a lovely classy intermission. Um– 

Em: [laughs] We played soft classical piano in the back, and– 

Christine: That’s right. Uh, we said things like– 

Em: “Ciao ciao. 

Christine: “Ciao ciao.” And, “Reuben, do pass the potted quail.” 

Em: “Do you fetch me a, a pail of… crystal?” I don’t fucking know. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Yep, that’s what we said. And it was a good– 

Em: “Bisou bisou, Reuben. Bisou bisou.” 

Christine: “Bisou bisou!” Uh, okay. Here we go. 457 is today’s episode, and I’m going to tell you the story of a young woman who, uh, was the source of quite a lot of mystery, uh, in Sumter County, Florida for many decades. This is the case of “Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee.” And I’ll explain all that. Um, but first note here is that February 19th, 1971: a woman’s remains were found beneath the northbound span of I-75 in Sumter County, Florida, near the Lake Panasoffkee overpass. For almost 55 years, her identity was unknown– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and she was referred to only as “Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee.” But just five days ago, as we record this– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –like this past week– 

Em: Holy shit. 

Christine: –they have revealed the identity of– 

Em: Oh, get out. Wow. 

Christine: I know. I was like looking at different stories. I’m like, “This one’s interesting,” and then I saw like the, the, the timestamp, and I was like, “That was like a week ago.” Um, so this is a very timely story, and she’s no longer a Jane Doe. So you know, there’s a little bit of closure here. So let’s get into it. February 19th, 1971: two teenage hitchhikers find the partially submerged body of a young woman under the I-75 bridge at Lake Panasoffkee, Sumter County, Florida. The remains were badly decomposed, and at the scene, investigators found that a men’s size 36 leather belt had been fastened around her neck– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and this indicated ligature strangulation. Investigators estimated she was between 17 and 24 years old, 5’2” to 5’5”, and about 115 pounds. They could tell that after being strangled with the belt, she had then been wrapped in a blanket and thrown off the bridge– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: –off the overpass. It’s just like horrific. She was clothed in a green shirt, green plaid pants, and a green floral poncho-style shawl. And she wore a gold watch, a gold necklace, and a ring with a transparent stone on her left hand ring finger. There were no missing persons report that matched her profile. Um, so they buried her locally, and she became known in the community as “Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee.” 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: 15 years later, 1986, the body was exhumed for further forensic work because, obviously, technology had advanced by then. Not quite enough, but it had advanced. Investigators determined she had given birth to at least two children before her death, so she was presumably a mother in some sense. She had extensive dental work, including a porcelain crown on an upper right tooth, and she had had an operation on her right angle– uh, ankle, excuse me. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Over the decades, investigators would release like information about her, trying to get anybody to submit a tip or say like, “That sounds like my aunt or my long-lost mother,” or something. Um, and so they would release these details, and they would also release, uh, multiple facial reconstructions, uh, to try and figure out– There are a bunch of them that they’ve made over the years of different ways– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –she might have looked. Um– 

Em: D– And how many people did you say like reached out? Did you say? ’Cause that’s a lot of– I mean, everyone I feel like knows someone who’s had an operation on their ankle or like– Like it– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It’s not a lot to go off of. Or a, a crown– 

Christine: But I mean if– But if you’re, but if you’re, if you’re like 17 to 21/22– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –and you’ve had an operation on your ankle– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –I feel like that narrows it down. But like nobody– Nothing. Nobody, nobody reported this person missing. No clue. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: So over the decades, investigators released multiple facial, facial reconstructions. That show– Or the story was even featured on a 1992 episode of Unsolved Mysteries. Um, and some tips did come in, but there was no positive identification. Now we really fast forward to 2012. Further forensic examinations, including isotope testing, suggested the victim may have grown up in southern Europe near Athens, Greece. 

Em: Okay. Interesting. What i–? 

Christine: And the way that– 

Em: I’m, I’m really throwing a wrench at you here. W– Do y– What is isotope testing specifically? 

Christine: I’m, I’m so glad you asked because I did go through like a minor rabbithole on, um, Reddit– 

Em: ’Cause I’ve heard you say it before, but I don’t know what it is. 

Christine: And I believe it’s called like a– kind of a pseudoscience-y, hokey kind of thing. Um– 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: I don’t know if that’s true, but I feel like people argue about the validity. Um, it is– I don’t– I’m not like super– [sighs] I know you’re gonna be shocked to hear this. I’m not super smart. Um– 

Em: [laughs] It’s okay. 

Christine: But it’s– [laughs] 

Em: I knew I was like really– Like you– That was a– 

Christine: But do you know that– Like have you heard of when people say, “Oh, um, like we looked at their dietary– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: “–and like where they might have grown up. Or the, the, the calcium in their teeth or something.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And that’s what they do to then determine where they may have grown up. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: So like I don’t know if they tested her hair or her teeth or what, but something that they tested led them to believe she had grown up near Greece– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –um, and had arrived in the US. And I think they can also tell through your hair, like what you’ve been– 

Em: Hm, interesting. 

Christine: –eating and drinking. And I th– I think there are some, some ways that you can test. So I don’t know. I don’t want to say it’s a bunk science. I have no idea. But, um– 

Em: I mean, I’ve heard you say it truly– It– I’ve heard it on Law and Order. Like I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –I just don’t know. I just– 

Christine: I think it’s just basically taking elements of like– and trying to geographically trace them back. 

Em: Triangulate, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. So they determined she had been only– in the US only one to three months before being killed, so this obviously narrowed it down quite a bit. And as a result, the case was then featured on a Greek TV show. And this led one woman in Greece to call in a tip that she believed this woman was a friend named Konstantina that she had lost touch with. This was a classmate she’d known from prep school in Greece where they were being trained to be domestic help. And p– as part of a work contract, Konstantina had arrived in the United States within that one to three month period where they had claimed that she had entered the States. Although this seemed promising, uh, it ended up being another dead end, and the woman was not, in fact, the Greek Konstantina. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So despite all these investigative efforts over the years, five decades passed with no identity for this young woman. Now we zoom to last week. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: October 2025. Uh, Sumter County Sheriff’s Office announced last week that “Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee” has been positively identified. On October 1 of 2025, latent prints from the 1971 case were submitted through a quote “STORM automated biometric identification system.” Apparent– 

Em: So what’s that one? [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, thanks. This is not a bunk science. It is a, um, an automated system that has only been recently, uh, put into place in Florida, and it is a way to, um– You know biometrics where they take your fingerprint and your fa– facial recognition, all that shit? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, they have like a, a very state-of-the-art system to trace fingerprints and other biometrics. And they had latent prints, um, from 1971 from that case, but they hadn’t run it through this new STORM system. 

Em: Oh, okay. Cool. 

Christine: So they did in October, last month, and they got a match. And it was like, “Holy shit!” And it, it was a match for her, like her fingerprints. 

Em: Mm. So cool. 

Christine: So they put the prints in, and they matched a 1970 arrest record of a 21-year-old woman in Hillsborough County named Maureen L. Minor Rowan. She had been born March 21, 1949, and her family– and to her family, she was known as “Cookie.” That was her nickname. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: Cookie Rowan was born in Maine, but lived in Tampa, and was estranged from her husband, Charles Emery Rowan, Sr. She also had ties to Jacksonville, Gainesville, and Enigma, Georgia. And she’d only been 21 when she was murdered. Side note here: the sheriff’s office clarified that the initial assumption of the isotope testing of, uh, her being a Greek immigrant was inaccurate because, um, apparently, the isotope test that they performed on her had been contaminated by the formaldehyde gel that they used back in the ‘70s. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And this formaldehyde gel on the body apparently sent them like to Greece. They were like, “Oh, she’s from Greece.” But it was just that– 

Em: Wild. 

Christine: So I think that’s why it got a little– It gets flack ’cause there are some– 

Em: And it never even occurred to me, by the way, formaldehyde could be a gel. Like, like that’s– You’re just– 

Christine: Formaldehyde gel. I know. 

Em: You’re saying a lot of things to me that– Didn’t even know it existed. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s kind of an icky one. And the fact that they like– It says it was used in embalming in the ‘70s, and I’m like, “I bet you they don’t even use that anymore. I bet you there’s just like–“ 

Em: No, I’m sure they realized– [laughs] 

Christine: “–buckets of formaldehyde gel somewhere in a basement of Music Hall or something.” Oh my god. 

Em: I know. I was literally gonna– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: You said it first. [laughs] 

Christine: Creepy. Um– 

Em: Oh my gosh. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Just– 

Christine: No, no. And so I thought that was interesting ’cause it’s like I, I guess if isotope testing can get contaminated by like embalming fluid– fluids then like yeah, it is a little shadier than– I don’t know. Whatever. But– 

Em: Yeah, it feels, it feels like– I always– 

Christine: Not as foolproof maybe. 

Em: Yeah, I always think that new technology is like, like you’re– like that we’re already considering that it could– like we’re already making it in a way where that it won’t get in the way of like– I, I don’t really know what I’m saying. But I would, I would imagine that if I built something to help identify people, it would first occur to me that like we don’t want things in the system to, to mess all that up. I don’t know. I don’t really know what I’m saying. I just– I think of it as more foolproof every time when I th– when I think of– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: Like when I think of new technology, I think of other, other factors not getting in its way. I just always think of it as like pretty– 

Christine: No, you’re right, espe– 

Em: – primo stuff. 

Christine: –especially because like that was in 2012, and that was like very advanced, you know, for the time, and it was like– clearly like got a lot of leads and went to Greek television. And it’s like, “Oh, shit. Even in 2012, like we’re–“ which makes you think like, “What now are we completely botching that we don’t even realize like–?” 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I just I would, I would think that if it’s being– if it’s been built and is being used, then we’ve already considered that it– that nothing is gonna get in its way and like the test results are gonna be accurate or like that– 

Christine: Right, it’s like a lie detector where it’s like not allowed as evidence in court– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –but it’s still used, even though it’s not foolproof, and like it’s used as like a tool, but it’s not necessarily foolproof. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, yeah. So that’s kind of how I, how I think about it. Um, it’s interesting though, like the, the idea of isotope testing. Um– 

Em: One day, can you cover, instead of doing like a, like a true crime case, would you just do an episode where you just like talk about all the different like ways that they are able– like all the techniques they are able to use to identify people and stuff? 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: I think that be sup– ’Cause like isotope testing or like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Like all the things that they talk– like CODIS. Thi– Like all the things that they use and how they– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –what they actually all do. 

Christine: Genealogy. Oh my god. I could probably end up, uh, doing a whole fucking series. Um– 

Em: I feel like that could be a– that would be a nice one on– 101 of like what the fuck are cops actually– what’s at their disposal? 

Christine: What are like investigators using, like what tools? Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: That’s– Yeah, that’s really interesting. I would love to look into that ’cause I don’t know too much. Um, okay, so we are back to October of this year. Sheriff Patrick Breeden stated, “This case has been a mystery in Sumter County for almost 55 years. Today, ‘Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee’ finally has a name.” At the time of her death, 21-year-old Cookie Rowan lived at 1206 Windermere Way in Tampa with her two young children. But strangely, nobody had reported her missing at the time of her disappearance. 

Em: Yeah. Or like who’s watching her kids? 

Christine: Yeah. So investigators said they interviewed people who knew her and, as a result, began focusing on her estranged husband, of course, Charles Emery Rowan, Sr. ’Cause why didn’t he, uh, report her missing? 

Em: Oh, as soon as you said estranged, I went, “Well, I know who the prime suspect was.” [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah, he’s definitely a person of interest. And, uh, what they said about this was “Emery’s actions leading up to the separation and continuing after the discovery of Cookie’s body are suspicious enough to list him as a person of interest,” Captain Galvin said. But they don’t have enough evidence to label him as a suspect, and he died in 2015, so there’s no questioning him. So you know, if something comes out any other way that that’s possible to get more clarity, but we don’t really know. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: He is a person of interest though. Captain John Galvin of the Sheriff’s Office says part of their investigation now that they’ve identified her body and have a person of interest is trying to figure out why nobody reported her missing in 1971. Um, he said what he had heard through interviewing, um, family members and people who knew her is that there was some suggestion that her husband told family members that she left on her own– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and didn’t want to be bothered, you know, or what have you. So we don’t really know what happened. But, um, her kids are still alive and, uh, have spoken out about this, and that breaks my heart because– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –um apparently, it’s been, it’s been intimated, let’s say it that way, and, um, I’ve kind of inferred that, uh, the kids were told this story that her– their mom just left and abandoned them. 

Em: Which alone is traumatic. 

Christine: Right. And then 55 years later to find out like “Oh, she was murdered right like in our town?” I mean, it’s just a really– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –jarring thing. Um, as for what else, we don’t quite know yet. And again, this is like a very recent development that we even know who it is. Um, October 1 is when they found out– 

Em: That’s crazy. 

Christine: –or at least when they submitted the prints and like by the end of the month, they’re like, “We know who she is. We have her kids here at the press conferen–” Like, it’s just wild how things move so fast. 

Em: I was gonna say it almost makes me angry. Like “How did we get all this in 24 hours when I’ve been waiting this long for anything?” Like it just went from nothing to everything. 

Christine: ’Cause I’m telling you, Em, like there’s something going on where it’s just like things are going faster and faster and faster. Like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –technology, like our, our situations, our, our pol– political atmosphere. It’s just like everything is like imploding at once. It feels like– Like I feel like next month it’s gonna be where we don’t even know what the state of the world, what our lives are gonna be like. 

Em: Fucking right. 

Christine: Like things are moving so fucking fast. Um– 

Em: It’s whiplash, constant whiplash. 

Christine: It is whiplash, yes. And so that’s why I’m just like so startled because I’m like, “Wow, within a month like they have all this information.” So hopefully– Essentially what I’m saying is I don’t have the newest– Obviously, like I don’t have the current investigation, uh, information. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But they are definitely, um, looking into this further, of course. What we don’t know is the exact timeline of Cookie Rowan’s movements before her death. Um, we know investigators estimate about 30 days between her death and when her body was found. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: The exact location of the homicide is unknown. Um, remember they put her in a blanket and disposed of her at the bridge, but we don’t know where she was actually killed. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: We don’t know the motive or the co-conspirators, if there were any. Um, despite her estranged husband being a person of interest, there have been no charges publicly disclosed. 

Em: And h-he’s still alive. 

Christine: No, he died in 2015. 

Em: Oh, oh, okay. 

Christine: So there’s no way to get, you know, obviously any inf– any more information from him directly, but like who knows in his stuff or with– or maybe he talked to someone or maybe he has– Who knows? I mean– 

Em: That’s so frustrating though ’cause it’s like we were just talking about, “Oh, we got so much information–“ 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –but it’s also like, “I guess I kind of got no information.” It’s like, “Well, we know who she is,” and I guess that’s closure, but it’s still like, “Well, what the fuck happened?” 

Christine: But think about what a wealth of information you suddenly have. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like you, you literally had nothing, and now it’s like, “Oh, we have like an entire family dynamic.” The kids are here. They know their dad. Like you know he has relatives. He lived ’til 2015, so he had a computer. He had a phone. Like maybe they can go through shit and find something. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: I don’t know. I don’t really know. Um, maybe they can check CODIS – just kidding. I haven’t done the episode yet, guys. I don’t know what any of it means. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um– 

Em: Maybe. 

Christine: No, so– Maybe. Uh, but so we don’t know that either, whether he– We don’t know whether he did it. We don’t know whether he had a motive or whether he had co-conspirators. Um, and to close out here, uh, I want to read a statement that one of Cookie’s children released last Wednesday: “For nearly 55 years, our family lived without answers about what happened to my mother. We now know that she was ‘Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee.’ But she was more. She was a mother, a daughter, a sister, and a woman who deserved a full life. We are deeply grateful to the Sumter County detectives and the local community who never gave up on her. Now that she has been identified, our family can begin to heal. We ask anyone who has any information on who killed our mother to please come forward.” So if you do, anybody out there, have any information, uh, relevant to Maureen “Cookie” Rowan’s life or death in 1971 in the Sumter County, Florida area, please contact the Sumter County Sheriff’s Office tip line at 352-569-1915 or via email to sumtertips@sumtercountysheriff.org. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And that is the wildly recently updated long-standing cold case of “Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee.” 

Em: I know. That felt like more of an update than a story. Like just ’cause there’s like nothing– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –there’s nothing to go off of yet. 

Christine: So yeah, it was so just like– 55 years in the making, and now it’s like getting a whole new breath of life like investigatively. 

Em: I know. I feel this was your, uh, your moment to be like the first on the ground to say something before it, uh, bef– 

Christine: Yeah, that’s me. I’m Barbara Walters alright, you know. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Here I am. 

Em: Well, we’ll get maybe another update if, uh– 

Christine: I’m Nancy Grace. Look out. [laughs] 

Em: Maybe as more comes out, we’ll get another update on that ’cause I, I would love to know what happens. 

Christine: Yes, I’m definitely keeping tabs on it. Um, and yeah, if you have any, any insight, folks, and like know more about it– ’Cause there really wasn’t too much online, but I just thought like, like you said, it is so suddenly relevant that I was like, “Well, we should talk about it now,” you know? Um– 

Em: Yeah, it’s, it’s very rare that you do a topical story. 

Christine: It is. And it was weird ’cause I was looking up a bunch of different ideas, and then, um, that one intrigued me. So I started like looking more, and then I realized like, “Oh, if I google it, like there’s like news from within the last 24 hours,” you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And I was like, “That’s weird.” Um, so yeah, very shocking. 

Em: Oh my gosh. Well, nice little, uh– I don’t know. I don’t know what to call that. It was– It feels like, it feels like a– the beginning of what will be a continuation. I feel like I’ll– 

Christine: Yeah, that’s a good point. It’s an introduction to, um, the “Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee” story. Um, and uh, hopefully, it will lead to some more answers and more closure and more cold cases getting solved. 

Em: And I really do want to hear more about, um– 

Christine: I would love to do something like that, yeah. 

Em: –other ways that– like all the, all the machines that they have that teach you how to do s– like that help you with stuff and– 

Christine: I watch Bones, and, you know, remember when they had all these random fake machines? They were like, “Step into this. It tells you like what your brain is thinking right now.” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: And I’m like, “Do people really believe this exists?” 

Em: Well, so one of my best friends is a forensic pathologist, and so I– I’m sure she’s got some intel on that too. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: But I– When it comes to just the police stuff, I’m like, “What i– Like what the hell is–“ The isotope one always gets me because it sounds the most like Newtonian. 

Christine: It does. The isotope thing. And then people on Reddit were arguing, and I was like, “I’m not going to get into this today.” But– 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah, no thank you. 

Christine: Uh, but yeah, I, uh, I’m curious about it, and I, I want to admit right here I know next to nothing about it. Um, it’s just to find environmental conditions and try to trace it back somewhere. But yeah, maybe there’s like a deep dive. I love like a deep dive like YouTube video, like something where you’re like three hours and you just learn about like one abandoned theme park or like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –one type of investigating, and then I’m like, “Wow, I’m an expert.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Uh, so maybe I’ll watch that. 

Em: [sighs] Well, thanks, Christine. What are you doing for the rest of the, the day? Week? 

Christine: Uh, the day? What time is it? Um– 

Em: Are you a [unintelligible]– It’s both– It’s the afternoon. 

Christine: I’m celebrating my baby boy– 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: –and his ten years of life. 

Em: A little man. 

Christine: Taking him out in the town. 

Em: Little man. 

Christine: Sniffing some stuff, eating some grass. 

Em: You should take him to a little doggy toy store. See maybe if there’s like a birthday bone. 

Christine: Now, that, now, that sounds interesting. 

Em: Have you ever been to those doggy bakeries? 

Christine: Oh– 

Em: They’ve always got some weird stuff. 

Christine: –yes. There’s one right by the potter’s field downtown Cincinnati. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: There, there is one in that area. It’s funny. Um, but yeah, I love– I’m such a sucker for that. 

Em: Me, too. 

Christine: I’m like, “He deserves a special little [pronounced “wi-dull”] birthday treat with his name on it.” 

Em: I, I just told Hank. I was like, “You gotta stop remind– You gotta remind me to stop buying you treats ’cause he’s a–“ He, he didn’t agree with that, but– 

Christine: No, he’s– You’re wrong. That’s why. 

Em: Hi– 

Christine: And also when is his birthday? Do I know this? Do we know this? 

Em: May 22nd. 

Christine: May 22nd. Aw. 

Em: He’s a boy Gemini, which– 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: I know. 

Christine: And May Gemini too. 

Em: I know. And a May Gemini, yeah. 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: So he’s a– 

Christine: Handful. 

Em: –pretty much the biggest devil you can find. So. 

Christine: Well, Gio’s a Scorpio if you’ll recall. So, uh, I f– 

Em: They are evenly matched. Yeah. 

Christine: I was gonna say I think they’ve finally found their match. 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. Alright. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: Well, happy b-day, Gio. 

Christine: I know. My handsome boy is napping. Um, yeah, he’s gonna get lots of treats. Um, and he says hi to Hank. And, uh, he says, “Just wait for May 22nd. You’re gonna get so many treats.” 

Em: Oh! Well, tell little baby G I say, [exhales through nose on microphone]. He’ll know what it means. 

Christine: “He’ll know what it means.” [chuckles] I will. Uh, thank you, everybody, for listening. If you want to check out our Patreon, um, we do bonus episodes every week alongside– as a supplement to our episodes, and it’s like an intermission Yappy Hour type thing. So you can check that out on your podcast feed or on our Patreon. We also do all sorts of fun like little bits and stuff on Patreon too. So if you want to check that out, go to patreon.com/atwwdpodcast. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And, uh, you can follow our socials, and check us out anywhere and everywhere. 

Em: And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: [whispers] Drink. 

Christine: [low voice] Drink. 

---