E461 Houdini Hat Men and Intertwined Ghost Toes

TOPICS: COPPER QUEEN HOTEL, DANIEL ROBINSON

---

We’re back for another episode of our favorite podcast - ours! Episode 461 is here and today we’ve got a double feature of Arizona stories. First Em covers the spooky hauntings of the Copper Queen Hotel in Bisbee before Christine takes us 4 hours away for the mysterious unsolved disappearance of Daniel Robinson. And is Christine the paranormal genius of our dreams? …and that’s why we drink!

If you have any information on Daniel’s Disappearance you can contact the Buckeye Police Department at: 623-349-6411

Photo Links:
Zak's Rebel Spirit Outfit
Ghost Adventures S7 E3 (The Copper Queen Hotel & The Oliver House) - 31:35 min for the clip
HULU or Discovery+
Daniel Robinson Case Page

---

Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: Hello everyone. Welcome to And That’s Why We Drink, Uh, our favorite po– our favorite podcast and your favorite podcast too. 

Em: Certainly our, our favorite one to– Well, my favorite one. You’ve got two to pick from, but my favorite one to be on. 

Christine: I, I love all my children equally. 

Em: Y– Okay. Yeah, right. Okay. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: Um, hm, well, happy post turkey day. So sorry, everyone. We, we had– ran into some difficulties last week. Could not do it. 

Christine: That was my bad. 

Em: But– 

Christine: I can still hear my sinus infection. It’s not cute. 

Em: No, it w– it was, it was a little– It was both of us. I also was flying away to Seattle, and things just got hairy. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But, um, it actually probably saved everyone because we could not get the turkey song the first time. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: I know they didn’t want to hear it a second time. 

Christine: Don’t say “we,” first of all. 

Em: Me. I could not get it the first time. 

Christine: [laughs] Don’t lump me into your failure, your moral failures. 

Em: Yeah, that was a bad one. I, I really felt confident. So confident I didn’t– 

Christine: Cran. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: And I was like, “–berr–” 

Em: How did I fucking forget syllable versus word too? 

Christine: I mean, honestly, every other year I’ve forgotten at least a word or two. So it always shocks me when– I mean, it shocked me ’cause you’ve never forgotten a word. 

Em: Yeah, but I started on the first syllable. All of a sudden, I was wrong [chuckles] how we do things. 

Christine: Yeah, immediately incorrect. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Oy-yi-yi. Well, how was your turkey day, Christine? I have not seen you in– 

Christine: Oh, it was– 

Em: –since we did that song. 

Christine: Yeah [laughs], since we did that fated terrible song. Um– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It was okay. It was good. It was good. We just were so s– like sick, and it was just cold, and– Here’s the thing. 

Em: Are– Is everyone sick? 

Christine: What? No, it’s just Leona and I were sick, [chuckles] and nobody else. Um– 

Em: Oh, lucky Blaise. 

Christine: I know. Isn’t it fun for him? But it’s nice because when I’m visiting my in-laws, I’m like, “Here, take your child.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: “Take both your– Take your child and your grandchild. Off with you.” And they, they, um, they let me just like sit there in a blanket and online– 

Em: Like, like a Victorian painting, just kind of slowly dying in bed. 

Christine: Yeah, I just lounge in my, uh, daybed. Um– 

Em: Nice. 

Christine: Yeah. So it’s kind of nice. I felt– And then I would just like, you know, go downst– Everyone goes to bed early in that family, so I just go downstairs and eat food out of the fridge all night. 

Em: I can’t stand it. 

Christine: It’s really nice. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: I, I, I love finally getting a second to breathe when I’m in another person’s house. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So like in that way I love that they go to bed early, but that means– 

Christine: I do become like a gremlin. Like I just like traipse through the dark by myself with my little flashlight. 

Em: Yeah. And I’m– And– But my fear then is that, “Well, that means they also wake up early.” So like I’m really screwed because– 

Christine: Oh, they do wake up early. That is true. But I don’t, and I go to bed before they wake up. So it really is a nice little, you know– They’re like, “Where did all the food go?” And I’m like, “I have no idea.” Um– 

Em: [chuckles] There’s like literal teeth marks on the cheese. 

Christine: You can’t like– I mean, really. Like you can’t buy an ice cream cake for Thanksgiving and then expect it to still be there tomorrow. [laughs] 

Em: When it comes to ice cream cake, you have never said truer words. Um– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But I– Even with Allison’s parents– Her dad wakes up at 4 a.m. for fun, and that’s usually when I go to bed. 

Christine: Yeah, for fun. That’s sick. 

Em: And they, uh– I’m very lucky that I’m in a family where they– After they saw Wicked (they just saw the new one)– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –they immediately wanted to arrange a debrief phone call with me, um, to, to– 

Christine: Oh, wow. They really appreciate your opinion, I guess. 

Em: Well, I forced them into the first one, so I think they wanted to see this out. I wanted– [chuckles] I think they just wanted to see it through. 

Christine: Oh, they were like, “If you’re gonna commit, we’re gonna commit.” Yeah. 

Em: Um, but they wanted to have the– The phone call ended up being at 8 a.m. in– on the West Coast, which was 11 o’clock for them, which meant they’d already been up for seven hours, and– 

Christine: It’s dinner time. [chuckles] 

Em: –and, and I woke up early just to have this debrief. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 8 a.m. is early in my opinion. 

Em: Um, so we’re just living completely different lives. So I– 

Christine: I know. It’s amazing. 

Em: –I understand the plight of the in-laws that wake up early, uh– 

Christine: Yeah. It’s actually great ’cause then I’m like, “Oh, there’s just coffee and food for me at any point, you know.” 

Em: Well, did you– 

Christine: Mm-hmm? 

Em: –have, um, a nice dinner? I don’t even know what your– like you like to get– What’s your Thanksgiving plate? 

Christine: Oh, man. Stuffing. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: Bread and butter. Uh, I did a little turkey this year. Sometimes I don’t. Um, just kind of all the classics. Some cranberry on there– 

Em: Stra– 

Christine: –mashed potatoes. 

Em: Okay. You don’t have any like standouts? Like when we were like, “They better make this plate.” 

Christine: Oh, they make a really good stuffing. And you’re not into this, but like a mushroom– They make like this like mushroom s– Oh my god, it’s so good. I just– I– 

Em: One– Speaking of one syllable, as soon as you said “mush,” I went, “Nope.” [chuckles] 

Christine: [laughs] Immediate no. Um, but I don’t know. I just love, I just love, um, all foods. [laughs] 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: I’m really not picky. I’m really not picky. I just love when there’s like a ton of food and they’re like– Actually, I love leftovers. That’s always my thing. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So like I love to take the turkey and make a mayonnaise and turkey and tomato sandwich afterwards, you know. 

Em: Ugh, I get it. That one we can– We’re there. 

Christine: Yeah, that one I can– We can agree on that. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Um, what about you though? ’Cause I feel like we’ve discussed this, but now I don’t remember. 

Em: We haven’t discussed it. We’re still learning about each other. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: Um, I– 

Christine: Everyone’s like, “We’ve heard this conversation every year for the past nine years.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] They’re like reciting our orders like, uh– 

Christine: Like, “We know exactly what you like.” 

Em: I can’t stand a green bean casserole. Get that the fuck away from me. 

Christine: Mm-mmm! Mm-mmm. Mm-mmm. 

Em: I don’t understand why you would want that. Um– 

Christine: Horrid. 

Em: Yeah, thank you. 

Christine: I dated a guy who– that was his favorite Thanksgiving meal. Like he was like, “I could eat just that.” And I was like, “You’re sick.” 

Em: Something’s off for sure. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, someone’s really red flag. 

Em: My aunt makes, uh, an incredible mashed potato. I think most of it’s butter. And it’s like mashed potatoes like– 

Christine: That’s how you do it. 

Em: I think potato is like the second ingredient. 

Christine: Correct ratio. [chuckles] 

Em: Um, uh– [chuckles] I– 

Christine: Six pounds of butter, two pounds potatoes. 

Em: They, they get these rolls that I haven’t had anywhere else. 

Christine: Oh, rolls. Oh… 

Em: And so a lot of times I’ll just– In the middle of the night like a gremlin– This is what I did. They went to bed, and then I pulled out the leftover mashed potatoes from the fridge, and I took the leftover rolls. And literally like it was like injera or something, I was using the rolls and just picking up mashed potatoes fresh out of the dish– 

Christine: To eat, yeah. 

Em: –and just [Em mimes scooping the mashed potatoes up and popping them in their mouth] whole roll. 

Christine: And they’re like soft. Oh my god. I mean, I’m telling you that is the dream. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um– Wow. 

Em: And I, you know, I love mac and cheese, but I’m really picky about mac and cheese. And so I’m hesitant to try other people’s mac and cheese. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But I would say if it was getting nailed every single time, that would be my favorite Thanksgiving dish. 

Christine: That’s a top one too for me. 

Em: But it’s risky. Some people like breadcrumbs. Some people put in different fancy cheese. I, I don’t want all that. So– 

Christine: Oh, man. You know, I want everything with all the fancy ch– all the like moldy cheeses. And– 

Em: You’re sick. 

Christine: –breadcrumbs. [chuckles] I know. 

Em: Sick. 

Christine: I have such audacity to say like, “You’re disgusting if you eat green beans–“ 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –and I’m like, “Put mold all over my mac and cheese.” 

Em: [laughs] No, uh, I– But I– Honestly, as much as I like the Thanksgiving food, my, my aunt and uncle, they really– My aunt is an incredible cook. Um, and so it was kind of actually every meal other than Thanksgiving that, uh, I was most excited for because I never knew what was gonna happen, and it was always gonna be great. 

Christine: Oh! That’s kind of fun, that you just know it’s good. 

Em: Yeah. I– 

Christine: Oh, that’s a dream. 

Em: They never fail. Every meal there is pretty incredible. So, uh– 

Christine: Damn. 

Em: –that’s why I go back every year, so– 

Christine: I mean, it is quite a trek, and you do commit. So that’s– Yeah, that makes sense. 

Em: I do. But I’m– Anyway, I had fun. I’m glad you had fun. 

Christine: Yeah, I did. I’m, I’m glad to be home though, ’cause I’ve like not been home much this year, so I’m like– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: –home now, which is great. But Blaise is going to a jiu-jitsu co– uh, tournament in Las Vegas. 

Em: You going? 

Christine: No, I’m staying home ’cause I’m– I don’t– I mean, I would go if like it were a longer trip or something– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –but, um, with Leona and stuff, I’m staying home. But I’m like, “You go. Go to Vegas. Have a time of your life. I’m never leaving my house again.” 

Em: I mean, you’ve only been off tour for like a month. Isn’t that crazy? 

Christine: [chuckles] I know. I know. And then I was in Egypt for half a month. I mean, this is all my fault. I’m not blaming anyone, but I am saying just I’ve decided. I’ve, I’ve done– I’ve – 

Em: You’re burnt out. 

Christine: It’s too far. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Too far. 

Em: I got, I got you. I got you. I, I don’t blame you. If I were– I mean, I’ve been very nicely sitting over here, not on tour, and I’ve kind of loved it. So, uh, we– 

Christine: I missed my puppy a lot– 

Em: Ooh… 

Christine: – and my kitties. I was like, “Man.” 

Em: Well, as much as I like– 

Christine: Not that I should be surprised. 

Em: As much as I like tour, I have loved not having that experience for a second just to breathe. So I’m very excited that you now get to have that experience and breathe. 

Christine: Yeah. It is really nice, and like especially at winter time, like why would I ever leave the house ever? 

Em: Yeah. I mean, you– 

Christine: Insanity. 

Em: You also have like the aesthetic though of like, “Oh, it’s so snowy and cozy. Of course I have to stay in.” 

Christine: It is. I do have that. There’s ice on the sidewalk. Do I look like I’m gonna go walk on it? No. 

Em: No. But here it looks like June, so, you know. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. That’s pros and cons of that, I suppose. 

Em: Well, I’m happy for you and your puppy would– I’m sure everyone would like an update on your puppy and kitties. 

Christine: Um, well, we just heard him thumping down the stairs. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Um, he’s ten years old. He still, um, steals all our socks and collects them in a pile around the house, usually on Blaise’s pillow. 

Em: Precious. 

Christine: And yeah, he’s just livin’ the dream, you know, snacking all day, snacking all night. 

Em: Do you drink for any particular reason this week? 

Christine: Yeah, well, I drink my mini D. Pep. Um– 

Em: [groans jealously] 

Christine: I know. I cracked into it before we started. I couldn’t help myself. Um, I drink because Leona has taken up ice skating. 

Em: Oh? Hm. 

Christine: And I– 

Em: I don’t think she got herself to a rink alone. How– Who encouraged this? 

Christine: Who do you think? Me? No. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Who else do you think has the parental, um, rights to do such a thing? Yeah, it’s Blaise. 

Em: Oh boy. 

Christine: And he was like, “Oh, I signed Leona up for ice skating.” I’m like, “I will not be participating in that.” And then, of course, because I was gone the first week, she wanted me to come. So I came to the second week, and they had like an open skate at the end, and I was like, “Sure, I’ll come on the ice with you.” I literally don’t know what planet I was living on where I thought I could do this, but I got on the ice and was like, “Oh my god.” And I held on to the wall, and I was like, “I don’t even know how to stand up.” 

Em: You don’t know how to ice skate? 

Christine: No, Em. Like, why? How do I not know that? Like I’ve gone ice skating before, but I stood there like a, like a deer that just was birthed out of its– 

Em: [chuckles] Have you not– 

Christine: Let’s not get further into that metaphor– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –but I was like standing on the wall like, like doing the like cartoon arms. I mean, it was ridiculous. 

Em: Have you, have you not done it in a while? ’Cause I feel like we’ve hit that age where like our balance is starting to get fucked up. 

Christine: I think it’s my balance must be so bad. I like couldn’t even stand up. And then of course, we went to Connecticut, and my in-laws were like, “Let’s go roller skating.” And I was like, “What’s happening in this world?” 

Em: A lot of lack of stability under my feet, which I don’t love. Um– 

Christine: Totally. Why am I putting wheels on my feet? 

Em: You know, you can do what I did– Well, except my– I was telling the truth. Um, is that [chuckles] I went, uh, skiing with Allison’s family. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And by the way, when I was a kid, I was an incredible skier. I loved skiing. I thought that was so much fun. Hadn’t done it in a while. And then I was like ready to like not really show off, but I was afrai– 

Christine: Just like kind of be like, “Dust off the old– [chuckles] Yeah, poles.” 

Em: Yeah. Get back, get back out there. And I was excited to at least be like– Her family is like athletic and all this, and so I was, I was excited to finally show off that like I can do something other than sit on a couch. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Second I put the boots on, my feet started screaming. And it’s because– 

Christine: Yeah, it hurts like hell. 

Em: –as I got older I’m like– I’m totally flat-footed now. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: And so there was no support, and I, I felt like my bones were breaking under me. So, uh, I actually ended up just being like– sitting at the– What was it? The lodge or the hotel or wherever. 

Christine: Oh, you know I love a little chalet, a ski chalet. 

Em: Ugh, but I was so upset. But anyway, if you ever need to s– to pull the old, “Oh, I have flat feet. I can’t put my feet in there anymore,” you know. 

Christine: It’s just that I have really beautiful arches. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So I feel like it would be kind of like remiss of me to not mention that whenever asked or prompted, you know. 

Em: Sure. I mean, at the ice rink in the, in the little locker room area, you are expected to show off the goods. 

Christine: That’s right, and I did. 

Em: And we know on WikiFeet, you are at least a four, so. 

Christine: I’m like at very av– low average at best. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, that’s ’cause I never get pedicures. But anyway– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –uh, [laughs] I, I tell you what, that was not for me. I went roller skating about a few days later, and that was also not for me. Meanwhile, everybody in Blaise’s family is just like, “Whee!” zipping around, and I’m like, “I don’t understand this.” 

Em: Well, it’s Blaise’s family. 

Christine: And they’re like, “I haven’t–“ 

Em: They’re all freakishly good at everything. 

Christine: “–roller skated in, in– since I was in fourth grade.” And I’m like, “Really? Well, doesn’t look like it.” 

Em: Skates are when it’s all four like as a square– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and blades are the line. 

Christine: Yeah. And I used to rollerblade as a kid like outside and stuff, and now, “I’m like what? How?” 

Em: I’ve never once successfully roller skated. I can only rollerblade. 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: And that was, that was when my feet worked so. 

Christine: Interesting… [chuckles] That was back when your feet had beautiful arches like mine. 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] No, I– 

Christine: Um– 

Em: Rollerblading’s fun. You couldn’t do it? It still hurt? 

Christine: I don’t know. I haven’t done rollerblading– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –since I was like ten. I’m sure that would also be a big fat miss for me, but we’ll see. We’ll see, but, um– 

Em: I’m sorry for your balance. Uh, may she rest in peace. 

Christine: Thank you. It’s really bad. I was like, “Do I need to like do something about this? I’m actually worried about my health.” [chuckles] 

Em: Actually, yeah. I, um, I– If you want to go on this journey with me, I just got a balance board, like a boogie board. 

Christine: I was just googling them because of this exact situation. 

Em: Yeah. I would– 

Christine: Do you like it? 

Em: I ju– I literally haven’t opened it yet. I just got it. 

Christine: Oh my god, I’m so curious ’cause I was like, “Well, they make them for kids now ’cause it’s like a really important part of like developing your body.” 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: And I’m like, “I never learned that. I don’t think I ever balanced on anything my whole life.” 

Em: I, I think I just never– I– It was, you know, young privilege where it’s like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –“Well, I was unaware that anyone has to practice this. I’m just good at it.” 

Christine: You don’t think about that. 

Em: Um, but now I’ve– I used to like stand up and put my– like pick up one leg and lean it on the other leg while I put a sock on. Like I wouldn’t have to lean on anything. I just– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Just like one foot– 

Em: –stick my foot up and put the sock on. And I’ve noticed myself wiggling when that happens now. And I was like, “What the hell?” So– 

Christine: Oh, see? Yeah. 

Em: It goes quickly. Y– 

Christine: It’s getting old, getting old. 

Em: You blink, kids. You blink, and then it happens. 

Christine: You blink. Um, as I take a drag of my ci– long cigarette. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [in hoarse, raspy voice] One blink, and it’ll miss it. 

Em: Well, if you would like to try balance boarding with me, um, I’m, I’m in on that, on that round now. 

Christine: Speaking of cool merchandise, before I ask you why you drink, we’re supposed to mention our awesome holiday merchandise, which does not feature a balance board, but you could maybe fashion one out of some of these items. Um– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t think so though, ’cause I’m looking at them– 

Em: [chuckles] It’s all fabrics. 

Christine: –and they’re mostly shirts and stuff. [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You could make a hammock, I guess. Um, anyway, we have some really fun merch. Uh, we have a holiday sale. The entire store, excluding new items– Sneaky, sneaky. That’s 30% off now through December 12, 12/12. And, um, we got our Christmas sweater, which I love, uh, our Krampus ornament, um, and the Krampus stockings on sale, and a pin. I just– It’s fun stuff. So go to atwwdmerch.com to check that out. 

Em: Thank you for remembering. We both know it was gonna be you. 

Christine: I, I had it in full screen in front of me so that I wouldn’t forget. Um, and I almost did. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Uh, but why do you drink, Em? 

Em: Uh, I, I don’t think I drink for anything really particular. I’m, I’m glad to be back, uh, in my house for a little bit. Uh, I got to see Hank yesterday, which was the first time in– 

Christine: Yay! 

Em: –oh, over a week. Um, that was nice. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: Uh, I’m not loving today. I ordered two of my, my FLTs and– 

Christine: Okay, “whach” one? Which ones? 

Em: Um, I just did a little, a little iced black tea with some lavender in it, but, um– 

Christine: It sounds good. 

Em: –I ordered two, and one arrived. So– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: I know. I like to have one to chug and one to sip, you know, ’cause by the time– 

Christine: Yeah, I know that about you. Yeah. 

Em: And now I’ve only– I’ve got to be nice. 

Christine: There was that TikTok that I think you reshared that I saw, um, on my For You page. I’m pretty sure you reshared it ’cause it really had very Em energy, but it was like, um, “when I have a– one drink for caffeine, one to calm d– or– and then one for hydration, and I’ve reached like the perfect flow or whatever, the flow state.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And I was like, “That’s it. The number of beverages– You have to have the like perfect ratio of like hydrating to dehydrating to caffeinating.” Really a beautiful balance there. 

Em: Thank you. Thank you for thinking of me and knowing I’m involved in that somehow. But, um– 

Christine: You're welcome. Your face appeared on it, and I went, “Oh, yep. That feels right.” 

Em: [chuckles] No, apparently that’s an ADHD thing. That’s one of those like little hidden symptoms is that you constantly just have like three drinks all at once, and they’re all– 

Christine: Really? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Well, it makes me pee all the time, but I guess, um, I guess beyond that it is helpful. 

Em: One’s a– You’re right. Hydration, caffeine, and then a fun little treat basically, like a– something yummy. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: Anyway, I’m down t– I only have one drink, so I’m gonna have to be sparingly, uh– 

Christine: Gasp. 

Em: –I’m not excited about that. So– 

Christine: Ugh. 

Em: –I’ll make that why I drink. Um, yeah. 

Christine: ’Cause you don’t have enough to drink. [laughs] Sure. 

Em: We don’t have enough to drink on And That’s Why We Drink. It feels like a crime. 

Christine: It does feel like a– 

Em: Hey– Well, hey. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Report on that. So– Oh, I have a, a reason why I drink, and I, I got it a while ago. Um, time has passed, so I, I forgot that I got this. I recently purchased, uh, a Back to the Future– This was very difficult to purchase, but there was, uh, a limited edition sale going on basically. 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: I purchased one of Marty McFly’s skateboards– 

Christine: [whispered] What? 

Em: –from Back to the Future. 

Christine: Now, this sounds suspiciously like what you called a balance board just a moment ago. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Are these two different items? [laughs] 

Em: They’re two different. I– This is a fully functioning skateboard from a skateboarding company. It’s the same skateboarding company that made the Marty McFly one. 

Christine: Is this why you’re trying to get a balance board going? Like to balance on a skateboard? 

Em: No. I will never– I’ll never ride this. 

Christine: Oh, okay, okay, okay. 

Em: It’s fully for collectible use. Um– 

Christine: Understood. Okay. 

Em: I don’t want to wreck the tires, but– or the wheels. I’m so stupid. I’m not a skateboarder. [laughs] 

Christine: The tires. [laughs] 

[Em holds up a black skateboard, showing the top of the board to the camera. In the middle, a wide yellow strip goes across the width of the board. The strip is designed to look like it’s splattered with black and purple paint. “madrid” is written in purple in a white box at the top of the yellow strip. Below, “Valterra” is written in a stylized purple font on a black background.] 

Em: Isn’t she beautiful? 

Christine: Whoa! 

[Em flips the board over, showing the colorful underside. It has an inverse design of the top with a black background splattered with purple paint and “Valterra” written in black font on a yellow strip. “madrid” is written on a white sticker with neon green and pink paint splatters and on a second smaller circle white sticker with a black border. The large tan wheels are connected across with white bars.] 

Christine: Whoa. Whoa. 

Em: Isn’t she beautiful? 

Christine: Whoa. So wait. So this is– I’m so stupid. This is– 

Em: That’s o– No, you’re not. 

Christine: –from– This is a– 

Em: It’s– 

Christine: Explain this? 

Em: –from Back to the Future. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And this is the skateboard that Marty McFly uses in it. But it’s– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: After he used it in the movie, it became so popular amongst like Back to the Future nerds. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: But it’s incredibly expensive to find online. They’re like $700 or some shit like that. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: And so the, the 40th anniversary just happened for Back to the Future, and so the company made like– What was it? Since it’s 2025, they made like 2025 of the originals. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: –and sold them as part of the like anniversary. 

Christine: Cool. Are you gonna hang it up? 

Em: I am absolutely gonna hang it up. Um– 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: It’s been lying on a bunch of pillows because I’m scared of anything touching it. Um, but it’s– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: They– Apparently this is– They are calling it a 99% one-to-one replica. 

Christine: Oh! Whoa. 

Em: Like it’s like nearly as exact as possible. 

Christine: Even the tires? [laughs] 

Em: Even the tires. Actually, the tires are like a big talking point on this one– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –because they’ve done limited edition sales before, um, where they didn’t have the original wheels to work off of and so they had to like paint this little pattern in here. 

[Em points to faint lettering on the inside of a wheel.] 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: But they actually found the original wheels– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and re-embossed these wheels. 

Christine: That’s way cooler, yeah. 

Em: It’s a whole thing. So, um, this is– They said they, they don’t think they could make it any more exact. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: So I’m very excited. That’s why I drink. 

Christine: That’s awesome. That’s a good reason. 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: You got lots of boards going on over there. 

Em: I do. I do. And not even using all of them. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Um, one’s just to look at, which I’m sure if you’re anything like Allison, she’s like, “Why did you–“ 

Christine: You’re gonna love that. 

Em: “Why’d you buy a skateboard that neither of us can use? And now it’s just in my house.” 

Christine: That goes on the wall, not the floor. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: Anyway, it’ll be an excellent addition to our storage unit. So, um– 

Christine: I can’t wait to hear all about it. 

Em: Yeah. I’m very excited just to have it. That’s why I drink. 

[Christine looks offscreen, reaching one arm out and holding it up.] 

Christine: I– I’m trying to, if you’re wondering what I’m doing, I’m trying to light a candle offscreen, and it looks like I’m like doing like a spell, but I’m, I’m really just trying to light a candle. So– 

Em: No, uh, which– 

Christine: It’s not lighting. 

Em: –that is how one would start a spell. 

Christine: It is sort of lighting– doing a spell. Yeah. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Um, anyway– 

Em: Okay. Well– 

Christine: One of these days, it will work. 

Em: What, what is– Are you manifesting anything while you light it since– We, we might as well make it a spell. 

Christine: You don’t want to know. 

Em: Oh, shit. 

Christine: [chuckles] Just kidding. 

Em: Okay. [chuckles] 

Christine: [laughs] Um– 

Em: “I hope the balance board doesn’t let me balance.” 

Christine: Oh my god. I hope Em tips off the balance board ’cause that would be funny. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um, no. I’m just kind of mad it’s not lighting. So that’s mostly my issue. But that’s all right. I have another little balsam candle right here– 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: –and it smells Christmassy. 

Em: The balsam ones get me every time, Christine. 

Christine: Really good stuff. Really good stuff. 

Em: Really good stuff. 

Christine: I bought it as a gift for someone, and then I smelled it and went, “Never mind. [laughs] I want it in my house.” 

Em: Yeah. I know ex– That’s what I do a lot of times with like a citrus candle, like a grapefruit kind of candle. 

Christine: [sighs] So hard not to just light them up. 

Em: [laughs] That’s exactly right. 

Christine: [singing “My Songs Know What You Did in the Dark (Light Em Up)” by Fall Out Boy softly] ♪ Light ‘em up, up, up ♪♪ 

Em: Oh, here we go. 

Christine: Fall Out Boy. 

Em: Oh, and we’re done. Okay, great. Um– 

Christine: That’s it. That’s all you get. 

Em: Sick. 

[glass clinks - start of ad break] 

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors] 

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break] 

Em’s Story – Copper Queen Hotel 

Em: Christine, I have a story for you from Arizona. 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: Uh, everyone please, uh, pardon my seeming confusion because I have had the– had these notes for a while. So I have not– I– We’re gonna learn together. It’s one of those episodes. So– 

Christine: But guess what? My story is also from Arizona. 

Em: Bisbee? 

Christine: I have– 

Em: That’d be– 

Christine: –no idea what you just said. So no. 

Em: Oh, Bisbee, Arizona? 

Christine: Nope. [laughs] 

Em: ‘kay. [laughs] 

Christine: Nope. 

Em: [chuckles] That’d been crazy. Um– 

Christine: That would have been a little weird. 

Em: So this is the Copper Queen Hotel. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: And, uh, very excited. I have plans to visit this hotel one day. It sounds very spooky-ooky. Um, and yeah, we’ll get into it. So Bisbee, Arizona. You know it well. Um, and this is– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, very familiar. Just heard about it a minute ago. 

Em: Yeah, we can’t stop talking about it. 

Christine: Can’t stop. 

Em: So in the 1800s, the town of Bisbee had a mine called the Copper Queen Mine. Great. And it made Bisbee a, a super successful mining area. And that mine alone produced– I was gonna make you guess, but there’s no way you would know mining quantities. 

Christine: I literally know– 63 million– 

Em: Okay. Apparently, this– 

Christine: –pounds of copper. 

Em: We’re not even [over-enunciated] miners. And this is– 

Christine: You don’t even know how to say it. So yeah, no, we’re not. 

Em: No, ’cause I was– 

Christine: [over-enunciated] Miners? 

Em: –thinking like minors like children. I was like, “How do I differentiate?” 

Christine: Oh, okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. 

Em: We’re not even miners. However, I– This– These numbers still look successful, I would argue. Um, I– Speaking– 

Christine: [chuckles] Okay. You’re impressed. 

Em: Speaking for you. Um, so the– that mine alone, the Copper Queen mine, in its time in the 1800s was able to produce around 8 billion pounds of copper– 

Christine: I was close– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –by not even a little bit. By not even like an iota. Yeah. 

Em: 3 million ounces of gold– 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: –and 77 million ounces of silver. 

Christine: That’s crazy. 

Em: Yeah, that’s a– I– That’s a lot of metal. Um, and it, it being that successful meant that many mining executives would want to stop in and check on the production while higher-ups were in– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: They come to the area. 

Christine: That’s like, “How’s my favorite branch doing?” 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Like, “How’s my favorite mine doing?” Okay. 

Em: Words out of my notes. Yes, Christine. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, so since these higher-ups would show up and want to see the place, they needed a fancy hotel. It seems, again– I’m so sorry that after– 

Christine: They always do that. 

Em: They always do. It’s like, “Oh, well, where there are executives, there are hotels.” 

Christine: There’s gotta be a business center– 

Em: 100%. 

Christine: –with a printer. 

Em: And then if it’s in the 1800s, it’s also gonna be the brothel or something. I don’t know. 

Christine: That’s right. We might as well mash them together. 

Em: Yeah. Just put– Make it, make it the town everything: the school, the chapel, the bar. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, the bar. 

Em: So a fancy hotel was built for the higher-ups and future higher-ups, or like potential investors, coming into the area, and the hotel was funded by a company– You do not need to know this name, so don’t feel like you have to remember this, but fun fact, the hotel was funded by the Phelps Dodge Mining Company. They– The only reason I mention them is because they were also in charge of the mine. So it was, it was almost like they saw the profit coming out of the mine, and they were like, “We’ll use that money to build a hotel to make this a continuous thing.” 

Christine: Okay, okay, okay. I see. 

Em: I also once covered a hotel called the Jerome Grand Hotel– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –which is also in Arizona, and they also operated that building for a while too. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Fun fact. So they’re, they’re all over the place, this company. Um, it made the most sense for that mining company who was in charge of both things– It made the most sense for them to be in charge of both things if they wanted the businessmen to come back to their hotel while looking at their mines, and it was, was just gonna be a big money bag for them. So– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –that’s how we got where we are and why this hotel stands. Now, in 1902, the hotel was completed. And this was actually, fun fact, ten years before Arizona was even a state. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: So it’s older– 

Christine: That’s so weird to think. 

Em: It’s older than Arizona, and it’s over 100 years old. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, it’s also the longest operating hotel in Arizona, and nowadays, it’s on the National Register of Historic Places. And when they first built it, they had to finagle how to keep the hotel temperature controlled because it was Arizona. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, so another fun fact, the walls are two feet thick for insulation– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: –which feels scary. 

Christine: That just sounds creepy. 

Em: Thank you for saying that because I thought so too. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And I was like, “Am I making something up with this?” But– 

Christine: My brain immediately thinks of fucking H. H. Holmes. I’m like, “Soundproof walls? I don’t like this already.” 

Em: Uh, my first thought was, “Oh, not easy to escape.” 

Christine: Yeah, like a prison sort of thing. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, Shawshank Redemption kind of stuff. 

Christine: Yeah, exactly like that. [chuckles] 

Em: 100%. So originally, this hotel had 78 rooms with a bathroom on each hallway, which meant it was a– one shared bathroom per however many– 

Christine: Fantastic. 

Em: –were on– 

Christine: However many executives were on the floor. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, but then eventually after renovations– L-let’s say there were three rooms– Let’s say on a hallway, there’s, there’s three rooms and then another three rooms and another three rooms. In those three rooms, they would take the middle one and turn it into two bathrooms. 

Christine: Oh, like a– Oh. Oh, so it wasn’t even a shared bathroom yet still. It was– 

Em: They would just split basically that room in half– 

Christine: Oh, that’s nice. 

Em: –and give ev-everyone a bathroom. So that– 

Christine: Okay, that’s pretty nice. 

Em: That’s how we turn– came out with all the bathrooms. 

Christine: Good deal. 

Em: So if you are in that hotel and you are sitting in the bathroom listening to this, know it used to be a hotel room. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s– Oh, that’s pretty cool, Em. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So the hotel, uh, brought in very powerful people right away. A lot of celebrities stayed here. Some of the people include Marlon Brando, John Wayne, Julia Roberts– who I just can’t get enough of– 

Christine: Love, love, love. 

Em: –Kiefer Sutherland– Don’t you have a thing about him? 

Christine: Mm, no, but it feels like I would, doesn’t it? 

Em: It does. He’s giving kind of like, “Oh my god, it’s Jude Law energy.” 

Christine: I probably would get them confused and have. So yeah. 

Em: [laughs] Uh, maybe that’s why I think you have a thing for him ’cause you wouldn’t stop saying Kiefer Sutherland, but it was Jude Law’s face or something. 

Christine: I think that you– Yeah, that might be your Jude Law or something, you know. 

Em: Maybe. Also Michelle Pfeiffer, who I also love. 

Christine: Yep. 

Em: There was Nancy Reagan, uh, Teddy Roosevelt, and Harry Houdini, my number one. 

Christine: Oh! Wow. 

Em: He has stayed here. So although there have been many renovations since then, the aesthetic has not changed. So it’s still– It’s like o-our perfect marriage because it is a Victorian building, western-themed hotel. 

Christine: Oh, how cool is that? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: My dream. 

Em: Very, um, HoCo, Hotel Congress, when we stayed in Tucson– 

Christine: [gasps] Yes! 

Em: –which is also in Arizona. 

Christine: Which is– Yeah, that feels very old town– old cowboy town. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Old wild west. 

Em: Arizona, they love a theme. 

Christine: They love a cowboy. 

Em: They– [groans] Just move there. 

Christine: Just move there. I might. 

Em: Uh, speaking of cowboys, hold on to that thought and how much you love them because I got something to say later. 

Christine: Whee. 

Em: Um, all the way down to the metal keys and– just like Hotel Congress actually, which we’ve also covered. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Uh, they have– This hotel still has original metal keys, uh, for each room. They have the original safe behind the counter. The restaurant in the hotel still has, uh, a menu of the 1902 items that they used to serve here. 

Christine: Oh, cool. 

Em: So you can eat what they ate in 1902. Now, that gets me going. 

Christine: Wait, do they still have the– What do you mean “they still have the menu”? Like they have like the, the actual menu? 

Em: The, the actual food. 

Christine: Or they literally serve the menu? 

Em: They serve the menu. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: I know. I know. 

Christine: That’s cool. 

Em: I know. I’m looking for reasons for you to not go here. I can’t– 

Christine: Yeah, you’re not finding any. 

Em: –can’t find them. The menu, um, is not online because– Obviously, I wanted to list things for you– 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: –that were from 1902, but I did decide– And I don’t remember doing this, but I’m so proud of myself. Um, they didn’t have 1902 food– or the menu, but I decided to look up what might have probably been on that menu. 

Christine: I love that. Yeah. 

Em: Popular foods in 1902. Do you want to take a whack at it or do you want me to just tell you? 

Christine: You know, my brother and I were just reading old reviews– or old menus on Beach Too Sandy. Um, let me guess. Is there some sort of, um, like a, a partridge or a quail or some sort of bird? 

Em: Adjacent? Uh– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –I’m going to lump that in with hunting meats, the game. 

Christine: Okay. Okay. 

Em: Um, because a big popular thing back then was like elk and caribou– 

Christine: Oh my lord. 

Em: –like things you could hunt for, for– 

Christine: Yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah. Um, what about like some soups? Some weird soups. 

Em: I– 

Christine: Maybe that’s not cowboy enough. I’m thinking– We read a menu of the Waldorf Astoria. I think it’s probably a different vibe. [chuckles] 

Em: Well, let’s put this way. It is like, yes, cowboy vibe, but this is for higher-ups. This is for like executives. 

Christine: The executives, okay. 

Em: So fancy food. 

Christine: Okay, okay, okay. Um, I’m thinking quail. I know I already kind of said that. Um, I’m thinking– 

Em: Probably right. 

Christine: –um, like cream of celery soup. I’m thinking, um, some sort of gelatinous substance with gross things inside it. 

Em: You’re kind of close with gelatinous, um, so I’m, I’m gonna lump that. I’m really trying to hand you your flowers here. 

Christine: Thank you. I am not doing a good job at reciprocating. 

Em: Jelly is involved. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, PB&J was invented this year. And– 

Christine: No way. 

Em: And apparently it was like a thing on restaurant menus– 

Christine: That’s cool. 

Em: –because it was like the new thing. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: And then the other one I listed, on the East Coast at least, um, was Oysters Rockefeller had just been invented. 

Christine: I see. Okay, okay. 

Em: So– 

Christine: You think it made it all the way there yet? 

Em: I don’t know. I don’t think they could ship oysters by horse. 

Christine: [chuckles] I mean– 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: –god bless them if they tried. That would have ended real bad for, for a lot of people, I think. 

Em: Um, I will also say, uh, at the time only rich people could afford sugar. So, uh, a place like this would have probably boasted that they had desserts. You know what I’m saying? 

Christine: Oh, wow. Brag. 

Em: So I also looked up, uh, popular desserts at the turn of the century. 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: And by the way, just because sugar was hard to find, sweetened like tea and coffee was i– in itself a dessert. Um, and then, uh, other popular ones at this time were apple pie, pudding, uh, brownies– Devil’s food cake had just been invented. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: And Baked Alaska. 

Christine: Oh, is that– That’s ice cream with cake or– 

Em: Yeah, always blows my mind that ice cream existed before like the ‘40s. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s hard to imagine. Um, wow. Cool. 

Em: Anyway, some of the things that might have been on the menu. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Throughout the years, the hotel has seen a lot and become known as one of the most haunted hotels in the area. Um, and some of the rooms are even named after the celebrities and ghosts who reside here. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Fun fact. So if you are at this hotel or planning to be at this hotel and you would like to request a room, uh, room 211 is the John Wayne room. I guess that’s where John Wayne stayed when he lived here– stayed here. 

Christine: [gasps] That’s cool. 

Em: The room 312 is the Houdini room, and that’s where he stayed. So– 

Christine: [gasps] No, that’s cool. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I can’t decide which one I want to be in. 

Em: I’ll, I’ll do Houdini. You do John Wayne. 

Christine: I’d do John Wayne. That makes more sense. 

Em: Um, room 406 is where Teddy Roosevelt stayed. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And then the next two rooms aren’t gonna mean anything to you yet, but 315 is Julia’s room, and 412 is Billy’s room. 

Christine: We’re not talking Julia Roberts, I’m guessing. 

Em: I wish, but no. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um– 

Christine: ’Cause then I’ll take Houdini, you take Julia Roberts. [laughs] 

Em: I would love a chance at a Julia Roberts room. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, so yeah, the two you don’t know yet are 315 and 412. Those are Julia and Billy, and you’re gonna hear about them in a second. But– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –now we’re just gonna get into the ghosts. Um, so an employee here, um, named Jenna– She’s also the daughter of the owner, so she’s there a lot and has held pretty much every job there. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, Jenna is like very pro “this place is haunted, holy shit.” Um– 

Christine: Go Jenna. 

Em: So Jenna has been interviewed a few times, and this is one of the first quotes I saw from Jenna: “There’s absolutely stories that are like, ‘Oh, we heard a bump in the, in the night,’ or ‘We got a spooky feeling.’ And then there’s stories that are like, ‘We walked in the room and furniture was flying across the room,’ or–“ 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: “‘–I woke up in the middle of the night, and there was a woman on fire standing in front of me.’” So– 

Christine: Oh, sure. 

Em: So those are two things that she’s heard guests saying. 

Christine: So we run the gamut, yeah. Yeah. Hard to pin it down really. 

Em: And you know what? That one story about a woman on fire standing in front of them while they sleep? Did not find that anywhere else, which means there are a lot of stories to uncover. 

Christine: I imagine. I imagine. 

Em: But if I got Jenna on the horn, maybe I– 

Christine: Oh, let’s get Jenna on the horn. 

Em: Maybe we’ll do that for, um, a– uh, a bonus content or something. We’ll, we’ll– I’ll just call facilities– uh, fa– 

Christine: Please just dial zero. Yeah, see if they can give us some information. 

Em: [chuckles] “Get me Bisbee on the horn.” Um– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –so yeah. So that, that was one of the first quotes I saw from her where she’s like, “We just get all sorts of stories from people.” 

Christine: That’s wild. 

Em: Guests hear voices in their rooms. They hear old radios playing that don’t exist anymore. People smell weird things, and I’ll leave it at that, but it, it runs the gamut. Um, doors shake and slam by themselves. If you lock yourself out, you’ll come back with a new key, and your door is wide open, so you don’t even need the keys at all. 

Christine: Oh, that’s– That would make me a little bit paranoid, I think. 

Em: And pissed. I’d be like, “Why then did you do this?” 

Christine: Like who– “Why is there even a key if you’re not gonna–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–adhere to the rules of a key?” 

Em: Now, that’s a good point. And by the way, if these are like the old skeleton keys, you can’t– It’s not like it’s a digital thing, and you can blame it on that. 

Christine: True. 

Em: It’s just like someone keeps locking it as you unlock it, you know. 

Christine: The thing is the pins are actually moving. Yeah, that sucks. 

Em: [sighs] Well, so, uh, people will get phone calls with nobody on the other end. Classic. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, frames will move themselves or get thrown off of the walls on their own. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Electronics will instantly drain. There is a ghost of a former employee named Rose who apparently sits in a chair in the lobby, watching the front door. And the current employers, or at least the one employer I saw talking about it, was like, “Oh, yeah, there she is.” And I– And apparently, it’s so quick that they don’t even– they’re not able to totally piece together her description. They just know that she’s in a dress; she’s sitting in the chair; and she’s looking at the door. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: That makes me wonder if she almost just leaves more of an impression than like you actually see her. 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: I know that’s like kind of a stretch of a thought, but it’s like– You know, sometimes like I’ll be walking through my house, and I’m like, “Oh, the, the Victorian ghost woman’s there.” And I’m like, “But I didn’t see her. I just kind of know she’s there.” I don’t know. 

Em: I don’t wish for your life sometimes. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Listen, I, uh, l– accepted that long ago. Don’t worry. Um– 

Em: That’s horrific. But yes, exactly like that, I would imagine where– 

Christine: She’s pleasant. She’s lovely. 

Em: Okay, y– There could be worse. 

Christine: There could be worse. Yeah. 

Em: Um, Jenna also– I never saw this anywhere else, but I think it was Jenna or it was– I’m, I’m pretty sure it was Jenna. If not, it was another employee that they were interviewing. Um, I didn’t see this anywhere else, but apparently there’s a whole ghost in the kitchen alley area named Sal who’s like known to be like this grumpy guy who– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Like people just see him standing in the alley, like an axe murderer. Um– 

Christine: Yeah. I’m immediately threatened by Sal. 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. If your name is Sal, I– 

Christine: The “Sal” alone, yeah, is a problem for me. 

Em: We start at a deficit when your name is Sal. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: I’m like, “What are you gonna– You gonna shake it out?” 

Christine: “You got a lot to prove, my bud.” 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Um, kids will appear in your photos. There was one– 

Christine: Ew! 

Em: I know. 

Christine: Sorry, that was loud. 

Em: There was, uh, one photo of I guess a birthday party– 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: –and there were two little kids in the crowd that nobody knew. They were just– 

Christine: I don’t like– I mean, that’s sad, you know. 

Em: It is sad ’cause it’s like now they just, they just want to go to a party. 

Christine: They just wanna come to the party. I’m glad they got to go, I guess. 

Em: That also makes me wonder who has come to my parties that was not invited. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: I don’t know. I– 

Christine: I hope a lot of little ghost children came to your parties. [chuckles] 

Em: Yeah. Uh, I, I– 

Christine: You had Barney. You had the real Barney at your party. 

Em: Yeah, that was a– I don’t know if any other ghost showed up because they all secretly knew it wasn’t really Barney. 

Christine: [chuckles] They were like, “This is so embarrassing. We w– We have to watch.” [laughs] 

Em: I think they looked at each other and made like a face to be like, “We have to leave before it gets really embarrassing.” 

Christine: “Cringe!” [laughs] 

Em: [chuckles] Um, so kids will appear in your photos. Heavy, heavy furniture will move itself within seconds of you not looking. Which– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –I’m gonna need you to remember that ’cause I have something to say on that later. 

Christine: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 

Em: Do you know what I mean by that? 

Christine: No. I assume you mean like the thing about– I thought you were going to say the thing about like, “Oh, it– Does it move or does it just like apparate?” But we’ve talked about that a million times. 

Em: That’s a great guess. No, it’s not that though. Um, you’ll, you’ll understand. Um– 

Christine: Okay. Okay. I hope so. 

Em: Oh, you’ll understand. So– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –one guest, uh, lost her room key and later found it literally floating in front of her face. 

Christine: Yeesh. 

Em: And apparently– 

Christine: Do you think– 

Em: Like on– 

Christine: So you think she like lost it, right? You don’t think someone took it, a ghost took it and then hid it and then said, “Haha, I have it”? 

Em: That is the thought. That is the thought. Es– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: Um, with, uh– I haven’t gotten there yet, but with the ghost, Billy, um, famous for taking things and bringing them back to you. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: Uh, what’s even weirder, one version of that story I saw was that it happened when she was in the elevator. And so now I’m like, “Well, that really fucks with my head on what gravity is.” If you’re going down, but the– 

Christine: Oh, good point. 

Em: –but it’s floating here. 

Christine: Well, maybe he’s standing there. [Christine mimes holding a key up in front of someone’s face.] 

Em: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Christine: You know, holding it and like– 

Em: It does feel a little like the room key decided to free-fall. 

Christine: But that– Does that mean– Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And also like does that mean ghosts can like adhere to the rules of an elevator, but they can walk through walls also? I don’t know. It’s confusing. 

Em: I– Truly, you’re saying every single thing I thought because– 

Christine: [laughs] We’re sick. 

Em: –I was like, “How does gravity work when you don’t have any gravity to–?” 

Christine: I know, and you don’t have to adhere to it. It’s weird. 

Em: You, you would think if a ghost walks into an elevator and then the elevator goes down, they’re now just floating in the elevator shaft. 

Christine: They just– Like their head would be– Right. 

Em: Well, why are they– Why–? I mean, I guess you can do whatever the fuck you want. 

Christine: It doesn’t make sense. Yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] I don’t know. 

Christine: Fine. Whatever. Do what you want. 

Em: I, I guess I’ll never figure it out. Okay. 

Christine: Huh. 

Em: The hotel was– uh, is also famous for having (and very few hotels have this, and it is always my favorite) a ghost log. 

Christine: Oh, I love when they do that. 

Em: Yeah, they’re, uh– That was a big selling point on a lot of articles about this place. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: They’re like, “We have a ghost log.” It’s like, “Okay, calm down. I know.” Um– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And it’s at the front desk for people to sign. Apparently– I think I was reading this wrong, uh, ’cause I feel like this– like some of these pages should have been ripped out and framed if what I’m thinking is true. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: It– They– I saw something about how even like Houdini and Teddy Roosevelt wrote in the ghost log– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –about what they saw. But what I think it meant– ’Cause it was kind of written in a weird way. What I think they meant is things have happened in the Houdini and the Roosevelt rooms. 

Christine: Ohh, okay, okay. 

Em: And people have wrote about it, ’cause I was like, “Why are we not like framing Teddy Roosevelt’s fucking ghost story? Why haven’t I heard of it?” 

Christine: His signat– his handwritten signature and ghost story? Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, anyway, if you happen to be there, check the ghost log, and let me know if– 

Christine: Check for a Houdini flourish in there. See if it’s in there. 

Em: Uh, which by the way, that– it makes even less sense because Houdini was such a skeptic, right? 

Christine: True point. True point. True point. 

Em: Yeah. Um, so yeah, there’s a lot of entries in this ghost log, and basically, when it comes to the ghosts of the Copper Queen Hotel, uh, there are– They’ve counted up to 16 ghosts. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: However, there are three main ones that are like the famous ghosts. One of them is a guy that only one source called him Howard. Everyone else has just kind of called him the Old Man. So– 

Christine: Aww. 

Em: –I don’t know why Howard got that name. 

Christine: Howard. 

Em: Um, but he’s a shadowy figure of an old man with a long white beard and long white hair. 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: He wears a top hat and a black cape. He sounds like the Hat Man to me. 

Christine: Is he okay? It sounds like he is confused. [chuckles] 

Em: I, I was like, “Why are you just lingering in the hall?” Like– 

Christine: He just has like a beard and a top hat and a cape. Like, “Hello? Are you–“ Maybe he’s like a Houdini impersonator. 

Em: Yeah. Or, um, maybe like a higher-up from the 1800s, I guess. Would they wear a cape? 

Christine: [gasps] Oh, and like a monocle or something. 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah, all of it. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I do– 

Christine: Sounds like a railroad work– a oil baron or some shit, you know? 

Em: You know why I think, um, that ghosts lingering in a hall is creepy? Because I feel like everyone thinks it’s creepy that there isn’t a real reason for it. I think it’s because it always feels intentional. Because as living people, none of us are lingering in a hall, so it’s not like it’s a residual ghost. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s a really good point. 

Em: It feels like it’s staring you down. 

Christine: Or if it is residual, why is he just lingering in the hall during his lifetime? I’m also concerned about that. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like if it’s like he used to linger here, it’s like that’s a bad– that’s a problem. 

Em: If anyone has like a grandpa who just lingers in his own hall, that’s horrible. Um– 

Christine: Mm, I’m sorry about that. Maybe bring him somewhere else. 

Em: Maybe bring him somewhere else. Um, anyway– 

Christine: Maybe lead him by the cape away to a different room just in case. 

Em: [laughs] “By the cape.” That means you’re dragging him from behind. Just– [laughs] 

Christine: Okay. I know, but like he probably has a cane he can lean on. It’s okay. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Um, this guy, he also smells like cigar smell– smoke, smoke. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Apparently um, you can smell cigars right before he appears. Um, and he’s often seen on the hallway i– on the fourth floor specifically. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Jenna, the original owner’s daughter, who has also worked here– she said that an old owner actually died in room 401, which would have been on the fourth floor. Um, he died in room 401 when he had a heart attack after getting caught cheating on his wife. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So in the moment of being caught had a heart attack from like the stress– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and shock of it all. 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: So the thought is that– 

Christine: Was he doing it in his cape? ’Cause that’s pretty gnarly. 

Em: Honestly, if he was, that’s a cool story. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: If someone ever– 

Christine: Pretty sweet. 

Em: If someone ever told me they hooked up with someone and the guy was wearing a cape, I’d be like, “That makes it–“ 

Christine: And a top hat. [laughs] Oh my god. 

Em: Like that’s somehow ten times better to me. Maybe someone else thinks that’s weird, but I would love that story. 

Christine: Oh– I’d be like, “Go on. Please tell me more.” 

Em: I would love to collect that story. Um– 

Christine: Oh my god. [laughs] 

Em: There’s weirder things you could dress as, certainly. 

Christine: That’s true. 

Em: Um, but yeah. I mean, also I can’t imagine like– I don’t even know how you would feel as either of the women watching him– 

Christine: No. 

Em: –watching him have a heart attack and– 

Christine: All of this sounds bad, bad, bad. 

Em: –because of the situation. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Anyway, they apparently heard that story and have associated it now with him. Um, however, that was also an interview I heard from her. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Any other source has not given that story. They’ve just said, “There’s an old man, and it–“ 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: “Some say that maybe he died here, but we don’t know.” So I’m going to go with the original owner’s daughter or the owner’s daughter. 

Christine: That feels like a better source. 

Em: Yeah, she seems to be really into this stuff, so I’m just going to go with what she’s saying. Um, some have said that he’s a negative presence, which I would agree since, um– 

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles] 

Em: –he seems scary. 

Christine: That cheeky bastard. 

Em: [chuckles] Um, and people also find him in reflections and also um, not just next to you at the hall, but at the end of the hall, so like looming. 

Christine: Reflections is bad. 

Em: Reflections is terrible. 

Christine: ’Cause then I feel like he’s trying to hide– 

Em: I hate that you said that. 

Christine: –but like he forgot about his reflection, you know? 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: That’s bad, isn’t it? 

Em: I hate that. It, it w– 

Christine: [laughs] Good. You’re welcome. 

Em: That would be confirmed, I think, if anyone ever saw him in the mirror like trying to hide like, “Oh, shit. I forgot you can see me.” 

Christine: Oh, like ducking out of sight. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Ooh, Christine, that was a– 

Christine: Forget it. 

Em: That gave me a little, little bumpies. 

Christine: Listen, I– Now you’re freaking me out. [laughs] 

Em: Oh, I hate that, hate that, hate that. 

Christine: [chuckles] I don’t like when you get scared when I get scared. 

Em: [chuckles] I also don’t like the idea of like reflections includes inside of your own room. Like– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Whoa, bad, bad. 

Em: If it’s the hall, at least I can leave the hall. I can’t leave my mirrors. 

Christine: At least privacy. Yeah. No, that’s bad. 

Em: There was one– I can’t stop. They’re really just– [looks down at the goosebumps on their arms] They won’t go away. 

Christine: Oh no. Is he there? Look in the reflection. [laughs] 

Em: Ah! Um, there is one story someone had where she was in a hallway and looking at a display case and saw a man standing behind her also looking at the display case, and so she stepped out of the way to let him see better, and when she turned around, no one was there. 

Christine: Ew! 

Em: So hate that all the way. 

Christine: That is spooky. 

Em: Dude, it’s like also on my legs. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: I don’t know what you did to me. 

Christine: Now I’m getting freaked out, man. You’re spoo– freaking me out. 

Em: [sighs] Um, there is– I think this was an employee (her name’s Marissa) who said– Oh, this is literally the story, the display case. So it was, it was a guest named Marissa. Um, yep. It was– 

Christine: And she’s like, “I’m just gonna be polite. Oh god.” 

Em: Yeah, this is the quote. “While reading the articles in the display case, I could see the reflections of people walking behind me, and I noticed that a gentleman had stopped, and he was looking over my shoulder reading the same thing I was. He looked like a very nice person. So I turned to say hello, and there– and no one was there.” 

Christine: Mm-mmm. Mm-mmm. 

Em: Horrid. Um– 

Christine: No thanks. 

Em: A guy, uh, in a different room– He woke up for no reason in the middle of the night and noticed, quote, “a thin veil of smoke entering the room through the door.” My first thought would be there’s a fucking fire. 

Christine: Fire, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Not him. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. 

Em: “My eyes were irritated, but I continued watching the haze fill the room with unnatural slowness.” 

Christine: Okay… 

Em: “The– Then appeared the outline of a man dressed in a waistcoat, pacing back and forth in the smoke, and just as fast he was gone.” 

Christine: Ew. So like it makes me wonder like is the smoke just there so you can see him? Is that like what he’s able to be like reflected in? Or is it like he’s made of the smoke? Or does that just follow him around everywhere he goes like, like from the Peanuts? Like I don’t understand what the smoke is. 

Em: Yeah. I don’t– You know, it feel– it sounds like you’re right that it’s almost like without the smoke you wouldn’t be able to see his cutout. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Right? Like it feels like oh, until there was enough of the fog machine going, like the lights– you know how like strobe lights kind of get amplified by fog. 

Em: I was literally gonna say like lasers, like when the smoke moves through lasers, you can see lasers. 

Christine: Yeah, the lasers, yeah. Ooh. 

Em: So it’s– Which that– If that’s true, Christine, that freaks me out even more ’cause it means he’s already in your room doing other stuff. 

Christine: He’s– Exactly. 

Em: You just can’t see without the smoke. 

Christine: He’s like, “Oh, he can’t see me yet. Let me just get a little fire going.” 

Em: And was the smoke– Was that just like a secondary thing happening that let you see him? Or was– 

Christine: Oh! Was that intentional? 

Em: Or was it intentional? In which case why does he– 

Christine: Was the hotel actually on fire? [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Or like hello? Go check. 

Em: And also if it was him, why did he pick you? And why was it intentional for you to see him? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And why did he need the smoke for you? Couldn’t he have done something else without smoke to– I don’t know. 

Christine: I guess not. I don’t– And then why in the middle of the night? 

Em: But I guess he, he’s known to smoke cigars. So maybe the smoke– 

Christine: Oh, maybe he was smoking a cigar. 

Em: Maybe that’s it. Maybe– I think y– I think you figured it out. I think he was smoking a cigar, and that was part of the residual energy. 

Christine: Okay. Okay. That makes sense. 

Em: You’re so smart. 

Christine: I’m, I’m like, “Yeah, that totally makes sense what I said.” Uh-huh. 

Em: [laughs] Look, Zak Bagans has theorized worse, alright? 

Christine: Okay, fair enough. With less to go on. Yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] [in low voice] “Could this be?” [laughs] 

Christine: No, it couldn’t. But thanks for trying. [laughs] 

Em: Well, the second ghost is Julia 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: –who is one of the rooms I talked about earlier. I think she’s 315. And she was– They’ve always got one. It wasn’t a bride this time, but similar. It was still a jilted woman. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Um, she was a sex worker who fell in love with one of her clients at the hotel. And I don’t know if it’s because he was married or something, but when she told him her feelings, he– 

Christine: Did he wear a top hat and a cape? ’Cause– 

Em: Honestly, now that would make some sense. 

Christine: Just saying. Just saying. 

Em: If they’re both from the same fucking story. 

Christine: See? 

Em: You’re– I’m gonna say it again. 

Christine: See what I mean? 

Em: I’m gonna say it again. You’re literally so smart. 

Christine: Oh my god. Thank you so much. OMG. 

Em: Okay, so all we know, without Christine’s theories that are totally blowing us out of the water here, um– 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, I’m sure. 

Em: –her name was Julia Lowell [pronounced “Low-ul”]. Lowell [pronounced “Loal”]? 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, sex worker who fell in love with one of her clients. She told him. He rejected her. I don’t know why. I don’t know the reason. Um, and she hanged herself in the hotel apparently because of that. 

Christine: Shit. Oh no. 

Em: So now men staying here, specifically on the second and third floors, which would go against your theory because he died on the fourth floor with the other woman. 

Christine: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 

Em: I don’t know. Maybe it’s just too hard for her to go to that space. 

Christine: Yeah. Maybe it just is– brings to back– back too many memories. 

Em: Mm-hmm. Well, now men will feel someone climbing into bed with them. She also this I fucking hate, Christine. 

Christine: Uh-oh. Uh-oh. 

Em: She pulls the covers off of you and tickles your feet. 

Christine: I mean, that’s not okay in any universe, any generation, any decade. It’s not cool. 

Em: I’ve never heard lack of consent louder than– 

Christine: Yeah. Wow, that’s bad. That’s really bad. Cut it out. 

Em: But I like though that maybe that’s her way as a ghost where she is like, “All right, I’m gonna climb to bed, pull down the covers–“ 

Christine: “Tee-hee.” 

Em: “–gonna get crazy.” [makes tickling sound] “Tee-hee. I got you.” 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Too crazy. You’ve crossed a line immediately. 

Em: Yeah. It’s weirdly worse now. I wish you– 

Christine: It’s way worse. 

Em: –did something else that– This is worse. Um, she is also seen just standing at the foot of your bed and sometimes dancing seductively for you. 

Christine: Uh-huh. Well, she also thought tickling your feet was seductive. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: So I don’t know what seductive means in this scenario, but– 

Em: I think they’re in reverse order. I think she seductively dances to trick you into feeling like something sexy is about to happen, and then she gets you. 

Christine: [laughs] [makes tickling sound] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Well, that’s a nightmare also. Thank you. 

Em: She– It’s, it’s like a– like part of a routine of like, “Oh, what’s gonna happen?” You know? 

Christine: Oh, it’s worse than you think. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] 

Christine: “Go ahead, get your hopes up. It’s gonna be bad.” 

Em: “It’s gonna be bad. Give me your money. You’ll see afterwards what I’m talking about.” 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: Um, she is also seen dancing by the stairs to lure you up, I suppose. Um, and she’s also seen walking through doors into the hall. There– Um, literally someone said that they have watched her in their room just leave through the solid door. 

Christine: Oh dear. 

Em: Um, one time a woman ran into her, and this is– this was in a bunch of sources, but nobody gave any explanation for it. So this is up to– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –up to the reader’s imagination, I guess. But one time a woman ran into her, and the ghost, Julia, was sentient enough to know that she bumped into her and looked really panicked, and she said, “Oh, oh, have you seen anything?” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: But I don’t know what that means. 

Christine: Oh, maybe it means like, “Oh, did you see anything–” Like, like maybe she was doing something illicit? Like– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –having– Like– 

Em: Oh, “Did you see what I was up to?” 

Christine: Like, “Did you see anything?” Or, or like you know when people say like, “You didn’t see anything,” you know? 

Em: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like, “And if you–“ 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: “And if you did see anything, I’m going to get your toes later.” 

Christine: Yeah. “You better watch out.” 

Em: Maybe that’s what she meant. “Have you seen anything? Have you seen what I’ve done with, with the men’s toes?” [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. Right? Like that’s what it– [laughs] Their toes? Oh no. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “No, I saw nothing. I swear.” 

Em: [laughs] All of a sudden, I’m triple-socked. I’m like– 

Christine: All of a sudden, I’m crying and wearing like eight– Yeah, eight pairs of socks. Oh my god. 

Em: Yeah. Nobody has given an explanation on to what that means– 

Christine: Interesting. 

Em: –but that is the only instance that someone has had an intelligent experience with her– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –where she’s speaking to them. So um, people in bed also hear her whispering in their ears. And– 

Christine: Oh, good. 

Em: What like, [in a soft, quiet voice] “This little piggy went to market.” 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, I was gonna say, what could she possibly– Oh no. 

Em: One woman actually heard her voice in the elevator– Oh, sorry. One guy heard a woman’s voice in the elevator when he was alone, and they’ve equated that to Julia. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But he remembers hearing someone laugh as if he like made a joke while he was in the elevator, and he was by himself. 

Christine: Aw, that’s embarrassing. And he’s like, “I didn’t make a joke. And it–“ Yeah. 

Em: It’s like, “What are you laughing at?” 

Christine: Awkward. 

Em: Um, so her room is 315. And the third ghost that I’m gonna talk about, Billy– Reminder, his room is 412. So Billy is allegedly a kid of one of the former staff members. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: They say that he drowned in a nearby river and was brought back here to his parent. 

Christine: Oh, jeez. 

Em: Um, Billy was around nine years old. And just like any other kid, he likes to play pranks, and you– he’s now heard giggling and running all over the hotel. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: I feel like there’s always some mischievous little kid in a hotel– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –a mischievous kid ghost. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And um, kids even see him. 

Christine: Remember at the Crescent? What was that kid’s name? 

Em: If I say it, it will bring him back, I’m sure. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: It will bring him here. 

Christine: I’m always like, “Let’s say it again three times in a row.” 

Em: What was his name? 

Christine: “Just to see what happens.” 

Em: He was like the owner’s when, when the s– when the Crescent was a school. 

Christine: When it was– Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: It was the president of the school’s son. Um, and like all the– 

Christine: William? No. 

Em: Maybe. 

Christine: Billy? No. Maybe I’m just thinking about– 

Em: I remember like all the girls in the dorms– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –like all would play with him. Um– 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: [while googling] Crescent Hotel Ghost Boy. 

Christine: I keep thinking Michael, but that was New Orleans. 

Em: Stop trying to bring him back. 

Christine: [laughs] I can’t help it. 

Em: Breckie. 

Christine: Breckie. Oh, bud. 

Em: Christine, it literally says, “The Crescent Hotel ghost boy likely refers to a ghost of a young boy named Breckie or sometimes Michael.” 

Christine: Uh! What? 

Em: How did you summon that? How did– 

Christine: Are you serious right now? I didn’t know that. 

Em: How did you do that to me? 

Christine: No clue. Sorry about that. 

Em: That was– 

Christine: That was really not my intent. 

Em: –evil of you. Take it back. 

Christine: Breckie, I love that name. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: I won’t. 

Em: –I think it’s be– Wasn’t like his mom’s maiden name like Breckenridge or some shit like that? 

Christine: Something like that. I feel like it was like his middle name or something. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: Look at us, piecing it together. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, well, not Breckie or Michael– I don’t know how you came up– That’s so weird that you just did that. Um– 

Christine: I mean, yeah, sure. Yeah. 

Em: It is to me. 

Christine: I’m a genius or whatever you said earlier. 

Em: [laughs] So Billy is the just like classic quintessential like mischievous kid– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –uh, ghost boy, whatever at every hotel. I think I said that already, but, um, he is around nine, and he likes to play pranks. He’s most known for being heard, uh, running through the halls– Sorry, I don’t know if you can hear Hank drinking. Um, running through the halls, knocking on doors, giggling. The giggling I cannot tolerate. That’s just not gonna happen for me. 

Christine: Mm, and then the knocking on doors because that feels way too personal. Like don’t knock on my door. 

Em: It also feels sentient again. Like I just– 

Christine: Yes, yes. It feels like invasive. Yeah. 

Em: And I get that it’s– if it is really just a little kid, like obviously he wouldn’t know. But as a ghost, I’m like, “All of a sudden, I expect you to totally understand boundaries. Get the fuck away from me.” [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah, I know, right? Like a normal nine-year-old would do this exact same thing. Uh, an alive 9-year-old. Yeah. 

Em: So there’s a toy car in the hotel that I guess hotel staff originally brought because of the little kids that would be staying here as guests– 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: –but they noticed that the car started moving by itself all the time. Like it’s like– 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: Like it’s like a car, like one of those like Little Tikes cars. 

Christine: Oh, okay. Oh, but it’s not like, it’s not like a Barbie car. It’s like a– 

Em: No, it’s like, it’s like a car to ride. 

Christine: Okay. Okay. Oh, man. 

Em: Like, um, like a, a push up– like a push– [mimes pushing forward as if pushing a shopping cart]– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: You know what I mean? 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Apparently, it rides itself around. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: It moves by itself, and it’s said that– 

Christine: Or does it? Or is there a ghost child on it– 

Em: And it’s said Billy’s riding in it. 

Christine: –actually? 

Em: Um, one kid lost her stuffed animal, um, and apparently it was found in a random place. One of his favorite things to do is take your items and make them reappear, à la a key in the elevator– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –floating in front of somebody’s face, so he’s not even trying to hide it. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: Um, so a kid’s stuffed animal has been misplaced and found in a weird spot. Coins that are in the dresser are now– have been found elsewhere. Many people lose their shoes. Apparently that’s a big one for him. He likes to take your shoes. 

Christine: Lose your shoes? That sounds like a Gio situation. 

Em: I– [chuckles] That sucks. They’re a team. 

Christine: That sucks. You’re right. 

Em: Sometimes people’s wallets– Which can you imagine losing your wallet and a ghost took it? That’d be terrible. 

Christine: I mean, yeah. I think about it all the time because every time I lose my wallet, I’m like, “Maybe a ghost took it.” And Blaise is like, “Is this your wallet? I found it in the driveway,” and I’m like, “Oh–“ [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “–there it is. A ghost took it.” And he’s like, “Uh-huh.” 

Em: Sometimes people’s wallets and clothes will turn up in other areas of the hotel. Jewelry on the nightstand is a favorite of his to play with, and it’ll always look rearranged when you go back to it. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Horrifying. Um– 

Christine: That’s kinda fun. 

Em: –and he’s especially playful in rooms where children are. He will change TV channels. He will yank on your shirts. He will open and close doors. He’ll knock things off the tables. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: Actually, when it comes to yanking their shirts, one of the bartenders literally said that the shirt– her shirt got yanked so hard that it like pissed her off. Like– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –she just went from like in a good mood to a bad mood ’cause her shirt just got yanked. 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: And she was like, “What?” and looked down ’cause she assumed it had to be a kid. [laughs] But she like– I’ve never imagined– I, I don’t know if I could just switch into that mood– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –but getting yanked that hard. It’s like it’s at least incredibly noticeable. 

Christine: Well, when I get scared, I get really aggressive. Like I like punch– Like I want to like punch, you know? 

Em: That’s pr– 

Christine: So I feel like if somebody like scared the absolute shit out of me, I probably would get really aggro. 

Em: That’s, um, probably what happened here ’cause I’ve, I’ve had things happen where all of a sudden, like I just like switch into like a state where I’m like so upset. It’s like– 

Christine: It’s like a frenzied state. Yeah. 

Em: Like when your belt loop gets stuck on a doorknob. 

Christine: Oh! It’s so– I mean, really. Yeah. 

Em: Sets me ablaze. Um– 

Christine: Wow. Wow, wow. Look out. 

Em: Well, so Jenna, the, the one that I’ve been getting a lot of these quotes from, she was asked about Billy, and she said, “When I stayed in Billy’s room, I woke up in the middle of the night, three nights in a row, I heard a kid running back and forth, back and forth at the foot of the bed.” 

Christine: Ooh– At the– In the room! No. 

Em: “And I left candy on one of the sides of the bed, and then in the morning, the candy looked like it had been dragged under the bed.” Un– 

Christine: Oh no. [chuckles] No. Nah. 

Em: Fucking under. That’s– 

Christine: Nope. 

Em: So for all the people who are like monsters under your bed or hide your feet, this is not the hotel for you. 

Christine: Nope. 

Em: ’Cause, you know, people are like, “I can’t have my feet sticking out over the bed ’cause someone will grab me”– 

Christine: Well, and think about this: someone’s– And think about what’s-her-name and her toes? Julia and her toes? Think about the shoes going missing. These people are obsessed with feet, these ghosts. 

Em: Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder what– Maybe in my mind ’cause they’re all like coal miners and cowboys, maybe they’re like, “Why are all these feet so clean? What’s, [chuckles] what’s going on here?” 

Christine: They’re like, “Let me take a look. Not even a speck of lint between these toes.” 

Em: [laughs] Um, it’s also said that Billy is scared of water. And if you turn the shower or bath faucet on, you’ll hear him cry. 

Christine: Aw. That’s sad. 

Em: I would take a shower and just be apologizing the whole time. I’d be like, “I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry.” 

Christine: “I’m sorry. I’ll be quick.” Yeah. 

Em: So apparently, if you want the room to get more active, you turn a faucet on. That’s cruel. 

Christine: Yeah, it is cruel. 

Em: Yeah. It’s like, “How about I scare this little kid?” 

Christine: No. Yeah. 

Em: I– 

Christine: I mean, Zak Bagans. [chuckles] 

Em: [raises eyebrows meaningfully and looks at Christine silently for a few seconds] 

Christine: What? 

Em: ‘kay. 

Christine: [laughs] Am I a genius again? 

Em: [laughs] Ooh. [sighs] So anyway, the, um– There’s– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –there’s one guest named Dennis who saw several balloons in the hotel one day sitting on a table for like an event, and when he passed by them, he– He remembered the balloons. He walks out of the hotel. And then this is a long quote, but it is very interesting. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So he, he leaves the hotel after seeing these balloons. “About halfway up the street, I looked back at the hotel, and I watched as one of the balloons comes bouncing out of the hotel doors, down the, uh, exterior steps, out to the middle of the street. And then the balloon made an abrupt 90-degree turn and began bouncing uphill in the–“ 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “–in the middle of the street behind me. I did not notice any wind blowing whatsoever, but I watched the balloon pass by me and continue up the hill and–“ 

Christine: What? 

Em: “–around the right hand curve and out of my sight.” So it made two 90-degree turns by itself. 

Christine: What the fuck? 

Em: Uh, “About a minute later, here comes the balloon back around the curve, still in the middle of the road. I shouted–“ 

Christine: What? 

Em: “‘–Hey, little ghost, is that your balloon?’ And the balloon stopped moving down the street, made another–“ 

Christine: And then they’re like, “Did you see anything?” Or what did that lady say? 

Em: [laughs] “Have you seen anything?” 

Christine: “Have you seen anything?” U-ugh. 

Em: It’s like just a bouncing balloon making 90-degree turns. 

Christine: Just you stealing balloons from the conference room. 

Em: “I jokingly shouted, ‘Hey little ghost, is that your balloon?’ The balloon stopped moving down the street, made an abrupt 90-degree left turn, and came about ten feet, and stopped right between my front tire and the car parked in front of me.” 

Christine: Agh! 

Em: “I said out loud, ‘Hey, little ghost, you may want to move out of the way because I’m going to spray some sunscreen on my arms.’ Af–” 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. 

Em: How considerate. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: “After saying that, the balloon rolled sideways, stopping a few inches from the wall, never touching my front tire or the car bumper in front of me, then made another 90-degree turn and actually moved sideways an inch so that it would not bump into me, my bike, or the thorn bush nearby.” 

Christine: What in the world? 

Em: Well, thorn bush is a balloon’s worst nightmare. 

Christine: You know what? That’s just smart senses right there. 

Em: “I finished my sunscreen spraying and turned around and said, ‘Well, little ghost, it was nice to meet you, and I’ll take your balloon back to the hotel and put it back on the table.’” 

Christine: How could you? 

Em: “I’m sure I must have met Billy, the little boy ghost, that day.” 

Christine: And stole his balloons. 

Em: Yeah, like he literally was having a good day. He was walking around. He was showing off his balloon around town, and then he was polite to you, and you– 

Christine: And you sprayed him in the face with sunscreen. 

Em: He was an obedient child. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: You said, “You might want to step away,” and then he did. And he was patient and kind and not harmful. And then you just said– 

Christine: “Give me those.” 

Em: –“Give me that fucking balloon.” That– Those were your exact words I saw. [laughs] 

Christine: That’s what I heard. That’s what they say. 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] Anyway, very creepy. So as for shows that have been here, Ghost Hunters has been here, not Ghost Adventures. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and the only thing that they caught was luggage slightly moved by itself, um, and a blanket might have moved by itself. And they think that that might have been the woman– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –yanking. 

Christine: Looking for your toes. 

Em: Looking for your little piggies, yeah. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: Um, so nothing happened there. By the way, one of my favorite things about Ghost Hunters is that when I need to find out evidence of what happened in an episode, they play it all at the end. It’s like, “Oh, I can just watch this essentially as like a quick little clip instead of having to watch the whole episode.” 

Christine: Oh, okay. I didn’t know that. 

Em: Meanwhile– 

Christine: I don’t– I haven’t watched that in years. 

Em: So they always go when somebody like calls and asks for their help. And so at the end, they’ll sit the person down and show them all the– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –all the evidence they got. 

Christine: I do remember that. 

Em: I love that part. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, but with Ghost Adventures, yet another way that it irritates me is that I have to watch the entire thing to– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –catch all the good stuff. So– 

Christine: He needs those minutes, those download minutes. 

Em: And I understand. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And so Ghost Adventures, of course, went here. Um, I do have a picture for you– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –my sweet Christine, because your favorite ZB dressed up as a cowboy for the affair. Um– 

Christine: Come on. This is what I’m saying. Like don’t mess with me. 

Em: I, I want you to know that this, this is your man. This is your man right here. Hang on. 

Christine: Here comes my man. 

Em: Get ready. [chuckles] Sending it to you right now. 

Christine: God, he loves a dress-up day. 

Em: Well, he saw Arizona was on the docket, and he went, “Well, cowboy time.” 

Christine: [sighs] “Sign me up.” 

Em: I will say his cowboy shirt could not be more Ed Hardy. 

Christine: Oh god. [sees the photo Em sent] [chuckles] Oh god. Oh god. 

Em: That’s your man. 

Christine: Okay, first of all, please. Rebel Spirit? Let’s be for real right now. Um– 

Em: Literally, it’s a flowery skull, and it says “Rebel Spirit.” 

Christine: Yeesh. What does it say on the front underneath it? 

Em: The front? 

Christine: Are those gun– Oh, those are guns. Cool, cool, cool. 

Em: [chuckles] And then that’s him with the saloon. He loves the saloon. 

Christine: He’s such a dorkus.” Oh, and a thumb ring. 

Em: Yep. 

Christine: Never seen anything like– The studded bell? Oh, I just– 

Em: Do– 

Christine: The skulls surrounded in golden pistols. 

Em: Do you like what you see? You want to give that a little kissy? 

Christine: Oh god, it gives me a headache honestly. I mean– 

Em: You didn’t say no, I noticed. Um– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] The saloon one is killing me ’cause he looks like such a– Look at his thumb ring. 

Em: You want to hold hands with that thumb ring? 

Christine: Shut up. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You’re the one who wants to intertwine your toes with the Julia ghost. 

Em: I– [chuckles] Honestly, I– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: For the story, I might. 

Christine: I’m saying. I know it about you. I know it like a fact. I do. 

Em: You know, you know almost everything. Um– 

Christine: Alright, I gotta stop looking at this. This is upsetting me. It’s upsetting my sensibilities, you know. 

Em: Look, you hold Zak’s hand downstairs. I’ll take care of the toes upstairs with Julia. 

Christine: [laughs] Oh no. “Have you seen anything? You better not have.” 

Em: I’ll, I’ll do a little strip tease for her. Just pull the slot– the sock off ever so slightly. 

Christine: Yikes. 

Em: And go– 

Christine: I don’t want to be, I don’t want to be– 

Em: –“That’s for you, girl.” 

Christine: Keep that private. Thank you. 

Em: “That’s– [chuckles] That’s all for you.” Um– 

Christine: Please keep that private. 

Em: Okay, so he dressed up like a cowboy during the walkthrough, of course. 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Um, by the way, because Julia was a sex worker [grimaces] really opened the door, uh, for his comedy routine per usual. 

Christine: You don’t– [laughs] His stand up, his tight five that he does. Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] He loves– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: And he loves to not say “sex workers.” He likes to use the “P-word.” Um– 

Christine: Of course. 

Em: –loves it and just talked about, you know, what– Insert, insert your best guess here. 

Christine: [sighs] So embarassing. Uh-huh. 

Em: So before the investigation they– This is literally a whole new level of out of control for Zak Bagans. Because they were so close to Mexico, they decided to go to the Mexico-US border. 

Christine: No, of course he did. He would. 

Em: He literally illegally walked up to the border to touch the wall. And then– 

Christine: He’s literally such a fool. I can’t. 

Em: They heard– And he’s in, he’s in his stupid fucking cowboy shirt too, by the way. 

Christine: Rebel Spirit. Okay. 

Em: Um, he heard gunshots. Uh, and then– Oh, he also asked Border Patrol if he could do a ride-along. 

Christine: [laughs] “Hey, can I see that big wall everyone’s talking about? Can you show me that cool wall?” 

Em: [laughs] Um, he was denied his request, of course. Um, but– 

Christine: Mm, you don’t say. 

Em: –but he was not afraid to ask. Luckily, they did not show that part. They like turned the cameras off for that. And he was like, “Just so you know, they denied us.” [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Jesus. 

Em: I didn’t think it could get to that level. But, um, literally– 

Christine: It’s really bad. That’s pretty bad. 

Em: –literally crossing a line, and that line is called the Mexico-US border. Um– 

Christine: A literal line. Yeah. Yep. 

Em: Uh, so one worker says that, uh– Hang on, let me read this. Oh. Oh, right. Okay. Remember earlier when I told you about the heavy furniture moving? And I said we’ll get back to this later? 

Christine: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 

Em: Okay. So one guy that they interviewed who worked there said that, um, he literally like– He left the room for less than a minute, and, uh, all of the heavy, heavy furniture that like would usually take two people to move had switched itself around. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Super freaky. Of course, Zak Bagans wants to put his strength to the test, and now has that guy time 45 seconds or– 

Christine: No. 

Em: –a minute or however long it was and tries to move all the furniture himself. 

Christine: God-uh. 

Em: The end. Um– 

Christine: That’s way worse than I could have imagined. Did he move it all? 

Em: He moved it, but he was out of breath. Um, so I don’t know. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: You make– He– Ugh, it was not what I wanted to totally see. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: But if you wanted to hear Zak Bagans grunting in a cowboy outfit, Christine, um– 

Christine: [laughs] I mean– 

Em: It’s somebody’s dream come true. So then they ended up getting a bunch of EVPs. One of them was “put the rope down”– 

Christine: [gasps] Oh, shit. 

Em: –which is horrifying ’cause– 

Christine: That is horrifying. 

Em: –Julia allegedly hanged herself. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I also heard just “get the fuck out.” That’s what I heard. “Get the fuck out.” 

Christine: Oh, that also tracks. 

Em: And it’s also funnier because if I’m right, then they never censored the word “fuck” on a TV show. 

Christine: Uh, also very good, good point. 

Em: Um, then they got another EVP when they turned the bathwater on– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –my prophet little Christine, the oracle. 

Christine: I knew that would happen. I knew it. 

Em: Um, of course they turn the shower on. They’re trying to get Billy, and then they get an EVP that says “Billy’s hurt.” 

Christine: Oh no. 

Em: Which, let’s not forget that he’s probably scared of water ’cause he fucking died in water. 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Buddy. 

Em: Then– Okay. So I didn’t know if you wanted to watch a clip of– 

Christine: Always. 

Em: Okay. So if you wanted– I di– 

Christine: Let me say that a little less excitedly. Um, sure. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I guess I have time. [laughs] 

Em: Um, if, if you wanted to go to Dis– It was on Discovery+, as you know. 

Christine: Oh, hell yeah. Hold on just a moment. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Okay, I got it. What’s the timestamp? 

Em: It’s 31:35. And all you need to know is that they asked Billy to move the shower curtain. 

Christine: [chuckles] Okay. 31:35? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Okay. Let’s see. 

[Christine watches the clip from Ghost Adventures. Suddenly, Christine leans back in her seat, her hand clenched into a fist and held in front of her mouth as she gasps.] 

Christine: Ah! 

[Christine continues to watch, frozen and staring at the screen.] 

Christine: Ah! [chuckles nervously] Ah! That was creepy, Em. [As the clip ends, Christine sits back up, her eyes wide and shoulders still tense.] 

Em: That actually is pretty fucking scary. Like– 

Christine: I mean, unless Zak is behind the curtain, which I feel– 

Em: He is not. 

Christine: Okay. He’s not. Okay. 

Em: He was holding the camera, and he even– You could see him like recoil. [chuckles] He was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.” 

Christine: I– Yeah, that was upsetting. And then Nick’s like, “What? What? What? What?” [chuckles] 

Em: Yeah, ’cause he’s standing next to it, and it’s pitch black. He’s like, “I don’t know.” 

Christine: He can't see it. 

Em: Um, yeah. No, that personally– 

Christine: This reminds me of the bathroom at the Queen Mary when, um, I was like, “Don’t make me go in there.” You’re like, “Go in there, Christine. We’re filming,” and I’m like, “No!” And you’re like, “Sit on the toilet,” “No!” “Get in the shower.” “No!” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Um, for the record, I was literally about to say, “Personally, this makes me think of the Queen Mary.” 

Christine: Oh, okay. [laughs] 

Em: Because I– That was my first thought. Anytime something ha– creepy happens in an old hotel shower now? 

Christine: Yeah, with a shower. Yeah, forget it. 

Em: But that was creepy. I thought– I was like, “All right, Zak, you, you win this one. You win this one." 

Christine: Yeah, you win that round. Unless that is you back there, but Em says it’s not, so– 

Em: It was not. 

Christine: –I guess I’ll have to believe it. 

Em: And they, they seem to also like try to test to see if like water or a draft or something was actually hitting the curtain, and nothing was. 

Christine: Oh, like w– Yeah, it looks like somebody bumps it like from– Ew! Oh, I don’t like it. 

Em: Or like a kid hits it or something. 

Christine: Yeah. Eugh. 

Em: Um, so also in this episode, they hear truly awful, horrifying footsteps where maybe it’s faked. I don’t know. But it sounds like terrifying footsteps. 

Christine: I just feel like footsteps are always scarier than you reali– Like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: ’Cause when you really hear them in a place that you think is empty or a place where you shouldn’t be hear– it really is a scary– Like ’cause you know what footsteps sound like. Like everyone knows what that is. 

Em: Yeah. And it’s also– It’s a sound that our brains I think naturally just like turn off usually in the background– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –but when you’re supposed to hear it, it’s like a very scary sound. 

Christine: Right. Right. Right. Not good. 

Em: Um, with the horrifying footsteps, they got an EVP of someone saying, “No one’s here.” 

Christine: [laughs] “Nobody’s here. You didn’t see anything.” 

Em: “You didn’t see a damn thing.” “Have you seen anything?” “Nope.” 

Christine: “Have you seen anything?” “No.” 

Em: “‘Cause no one’s here.” Um, Nick also goes over, uh, to ask if someone’s on the stairs– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: –and they get a pretty clear EVP of someone saying, “He’s coming over here.” 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: Um, and then the last thing I’m gonna say– That’s the end for Ghost Adventures. But the last note I have is in 2017, the hotel started a restoration process, and as of last year, it is now on sale for $12.5 million. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: So if you would like some ghosts– 

Christine: Is that in our budget? Is that in our budget, Em? [laughs] 

Em: [chuckles] Hm. Let me think about it. 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: I’ll, I’ll get back to you. I’m not sure. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Anyway– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –that is the Copper Queen Hotel. 

Christine: Copper Queen Hotel. I want to talk to Jenna. 

Em: I do too. I do too. Um– 

Christine: This is so cool. 

Em: –we should make that content where we like just interview the owners of ea– 

Christine: Right? 

Em: –or like staff from each of these places that I cover. That’d be cool. 

Christine: That feels like, um– And we can dress up like cowboys– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and say inappropriate things. 

Em: We should just find the exact Rebel Spirit shirts he was wearing and just match him. 

Christine: Oh my god, you know how much those cost, right? Probably, probably– 

Em: You know what? 

Christine: –far too much. 

Em: That would actually be a, a great little spin-off if, if we just interviewed all the people from each of the hotels that I covered and just be like, “What did– What have you found?” 

Christine: The– Just be like, “Tell us– Spill the, spill the dirt.” No, that’s not what you say. 

Em: Spill the dirt. 

Christine: “Spill the beans.” 

Em: “I’ve covered– This is what the articles are saying, but what are you saying?” 

Christine: Yeah. “Now is your chance.” 

Em: Yeah. Anyway, that is the Copper Queen Hotel. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Hope you had fun. 

Christine: Wow. Wow. Here I am looking for Rebel Spirit– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –custom denim jacket with gold pistols. 

Em: You know what the worst part is? 

Christine: Uh, the internet says, “We don’t know what you’re talking about.” 

Em: You know he custom made it. 

Christine: So gross. What’s– What were you– 

Em: I feel like either he custom made it that morning or he has it in his closet always. 

Christine: No, he’s been waiting. I think you’re right. I think he’s been waiting, waiting for an excuse to put that thing on. 

Em: [in low voice] “I know just the place. Could this be the day that I wear my Rebel Spirit shirt?” 

Christine: Yeah. “Could this be? Could my Rebel Spirit finally be making its way onto the big screen?” 

Em: Oh– [chuckles] “Could my Rebel Spirit finally be healing?” 

Christine: Oh my god. Oh, they have a pride party. Okay… 

Em: A, a cowboy hat? Cowboy shirt? 

Christine: Sorry. No, the mus– the hotel. 

Em: Oh, lovely. 

Christine: They do weddings. 

Em: They do. 

Christine: Yeah. Okay, Bisbee. I love this for you. 

Em: When they– 

Christine: They have flash tattoos at the party? What the heck? This is a fun hotel. Jen, Jenna! 

Em: Arizona really seems to have it together because th– 

Christine: They do. They know how to do a theme. You’re right. 

Em: They love a theme. Ev– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Every time we’ve been to Arizona, there’s been something theme-y. I mean, remember Hotel Congress? That was beyond a theme. 

Christine: And they lean into that, and they’re like, “If you don’t like it, sucks for you.” [laughs] 

Em: It literally felt like I had time-travelled in that last hotel. 

Christine: That was so creepy with those stairs and– Oh my god. 

Em: Wild. 

Christine: Oh my god. [sighs] Wow. 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: Good story. 

[glass clinks - start of ad break] 

[Rotating ads vary, for a full list of current podcast sponsors visit andthatswhywedrink.com/sponsors] 

[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break] 

Christine’s Story – Daniel Robinson 

Christine: So I’ve got an Arizona story for you today as well, Em. This one is not in Bisbee um, but, but it’s in Arizona. [laughs] 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But– 

Em: Great. 

Christine: Too bad. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: But too bad. It’s still in Arizona. Okay. So I’m going to tell you– 

Em: Where is it? 

Christine: Where is it? Oh. Um, in Arizona. 

Em: Mm-hmm 

Christine: Um. 

Em: Uh-huh. Oh, right. Okay. You don’t have to know the actual town. It’s fine. 

Christine: In the desert. Uh, I do know that. I knew it’s in the desert. It’s– 

Em: I was gonna look up how far away our stories were, and now I’m typing in– 

Christine: Oh, actually, that’s a good idea. Um, so– 

Em: –“Bisbee to Desert, Arizona.” [laughs] 

Christine: So it’s technically Buckeye, Arizona is– And that’s the police department that’s in charge of the case. So Buckeye, Arizona. 

Em: Okay, so four hours away. 

Christine: Ah, shit. That’s far. Okay. 

Em: That’s not what I wanted to hear. Yeah. 

Christine: No. No. All right. So I’m going to tell you about the disappearance of Daniel Robinson. This occurred in 2021. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So a little background: Daniel Cornelius Robinson was born January 14, 1997, and grew up in South Carolina in a close, involved family led by his father, who becomes a major player in this story, David Robinson Sr., and his mother, Melissa Edmonds. And I’m gonna say upfront that this is an unsolved case. Um, and the reason I tell you that is because I’m gonna give you a quick description of Daniel because, uh, we still don’t know what happened to him. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Daniel is Black. He’s about 5’8”, approximately 165 pounds, with black hair, brown eyes, born with a congenital abnormality resulting in the absence of part of his right forearm and hand, and that visible characteristic has been emphasized in missing person’s alerts, which is why I mention it. Family and friends consistently describe him as intelligent, soft-spoken, curious, loved the outdoors. Um, he worked as a geologist– 

Em: Ooh. 

Christine: –so that’s how he ended up in Arizona. Um, and according to his father, who was very in tune with nature, Arizona was one of his favorite places because it had his scientific, uh, interests, you know, in mind, and then all the hiking and rattlesnakes you could ever want. Uh– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Couldn’t be me, but, you know, go for it. 

Em: No. I’m glad others are out there. [chuckles] 

Christine: I’m glad that you’re enjoying your– Yeah, exactly. Daniel was very close to his family despite living across the country. Um, his dad said when they got on the phone, they would often talk for two hours or more, uh, and they talked regularly. So Daniel attended the College of Charleston in South Carolina, studied geology, graduated in 2019. And after he graduated, he moved to Arizona to work as a field geologist for a company called– which– this sounds like a fake company– Matrix New World Engineering. Like it feels like a fake company. [chuckles] 

Em: That f– Literally like produced by Universal Studios. Like– [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, like New World– Yeah, it’s just a little creepy sounding. Um, but it’s an environmental engineering firm that manages projects, such as groundwater assessment, environmental planning, surveying, and he worked as a hydrogeologist. Uh, what that means is he would go oversee remote desert well sites. He would travel to these really isolated locations to monitor groundwater, perform sampling, and gather data for engineering and environmental clients. And that required him– His job required him to drive long distances alone into desert areas, often before sunrise– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –and then work in this hot, rugged terrain, uh, that could be difficult to navigate. So– 

Em: Terrible to me. 

Christine: –already, we can probably see where this is going. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Daniel also worked a side job delivering groceries through Instacart. And through that job, he sometimes met customers, um, including one woman that he seemingly became infatuated with. And we’ll get to that in a little bit as part of one of the theories. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So the weeks before his disappearance, um, according to family members, Daniel had been generally pretty happy in Arizona. He liked his job. He liked the area. Um, but in the weeks before he went missing, some people close to him noted that there were slight changes to his behavior. Um, according to friends, he had been acting not like himself. I don’t quite know what that means, and we don’t get much detail of that. Um, but despite these kind of mild concerns, his father and siblings have repeatedly said there was no sign that Daniel wanted to harm himself, had any sort of suicidal ideation, um, and they still feel that his disappearance was completely out of character. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Cut to June 23, 2021: this is the day Daniel disappeared. So in the weeks leading up to this date, Daniel had been in occasional contact with a woman he met through Instacart delivery. Uh, according to police summaries and later media coverage, they had spent a brief amount of time together. Um, she invited him in when she and some housemates were drinking, and Daniel developed strong feelings for her that she became uncomfortable with. This is according to, uh, the reporting. At some point, she asked him to no longer come to her home uninvited. 

Em: Fair enough. 

Christine: Yeah. So roughly 18 hours before Daniel disappeared– And this is one of those things that like could be a nothing or could be an everything. Um, 18 hours before he disappeared, he sent this woman a text message that was later quoted in reporting on the case, and in this text message, he wrote about believing, quote, “the world can get better,” end quote, and added that he would either see her again or never see her again. 

Em: Oh, shit. 

Christine: And like obviously in the context of somebody disappearing, you think like, “Oh my god, that means so much,” but also it’s like if she told you like, “Get away,” and you’re like, “Fine. Maybe I’ll never see you again,” you know, like– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –I, I don’t know. I don’t know that it necessarily means– 

Em: Yeah, it could– It, it’s certainly creepy, um– But– 

Christine: Yeah, considering the context. Yeah. 

Em: But it could also just be a guy being jilted and– 

Christine: Yeah. Yes. 

Em: Yeah. Sure. 

Christine: Just like, “See you never,” you know. Um, so it’s unclear. And also like people debate whether– Like his family says, “Oh, that, that had nothing– None of the women in this story has anything to do with like his disappearance,” but of course, then some people speculate it does, and there’s no way to know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, so that message, along with earlier texts in which he told her he loved her– 

Em: [sucks in air through teeth] 

Christine: –(and remember, she said like, “Please don’t come to my house unannounced, and I don’t have the same feelings for you”), uh, became part of this kind of timeline, especially because that last one was only 18 hours before he disappeared. 

Em: Mm. And he– And they didn’t not know each other. Correct? 

Christine: I mean, he went over there to drink one time when delivering Instacart and then like hung out for a bit and apparently– 

Em: But– 

Christine: –developed feelings that were unrequited and also much more intense than probably the timeline should allow for. 

Em: But, uh, but not enough to like be saying, “I love you” is what– 

Christine: Probably not, no. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: It seems like it was an uncomfortable situation on her part. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: So on Wednesday, June 23, 2021, the day he disappeared, Daniel reported to a remote well site near the intersection of Sun Valley Parkway and Cactus Road – the most Arizona thing I’ve ever heard. 

Em: Literally yes. [chuckles] 

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah. Cactus Road. 

Em: Might as well driven, might as well driven into a cactus for work. 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] I mean, yeah. Cactus Road in the desert area of Buckeye, Arizona, which is west of Phoenix and near the Hassayampa River. He arrived at the site at about 9 a.m., and he spoke with an employee from another company, later identified as a waterworks– a Webber Waterworks employee named Ken Elliott. So Ken Elliott, this co-worker, this W-Waterworks employee, uh, met Daniel for the first time that morning. And according to the Dateline summary of a statement, Elliott told police that rain delayed their work briefly. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And while waiting for the storm to pass– And remember they’re in the desert, so rain is not necessarily like a common occurrence. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: He noticed Daniel staring off toward the desert and making a comment that struck him as unusual, though we don’t know– 

Em: Oh, shit. 

Christine: –which is frustrating, ’cause we don’t know the specifics of what that comment was. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And then, uh, Ken estimated that Daniel remained at the site roughly 15 minutes before abruptly leaving and driving, instead of back to the main road toward Phoenix, driving instead deeper into the desert. 

Em: Ooh? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Okay. So it feels that like there’s maybe a little like mental health stuff going on here. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: I mean, yes, that is one potential angle. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And it’s hotly debated because his family does not believe that that’s the case. Um– 

Em: Oh, okay. 

Christine: You know, they w– They– [sighs] Yeah. Um, we’ll get into that. It’s tough because they, they refuse to even kind of acknowledge that possibility, but also– So you want to give them the, the credit of like, “Okay, well, they know their son, and they know whether–“ But, you know, you think– h-he lived thousands of miles away. He’s a young man. He’s going through it. You know, who knows? 

Em: I mean, he’s, he’s already– He’s saying, “I love you,” after one hangout with somebody– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and his friends are saying he’s acting off. And in the middle of a shift, he’s just driving into a place that is the opposite direction of home. Like some– while saying like disturbing comments. 

Christine: [sighs] It just feels wrong. Yeah, it just feels bad. And, um, Ken later told investigators that Daniel was, quote, “not making sense.” Um, apparently, Daniel asked him if he wanted to go to Phoenix together, and he’s like, “We just met. Like I don’t know you, you know.” Um, and the coworker reported that after these 15 minutes, he climbed into his Jeep, which was a blue-gray 2017 Jeep Renegade, and drove away without explanation. But like I said, instead of turning left toward the main highway back to Phoenix, the co-worker said Daniel turned right at the T-junction, driving deeper into the desert. Shortly before that, about t– 8:10 a.m., Daniel’s last known text message had been sent to the coworker, Ken Elliott, that he was scheduled to meet– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –but we do not have the content of that message in the public record. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Later that day, when Daniel did not check in with his employer or family and could not be reached by the phone, uh, his absence became a concern. And at some point during the day, his workplace, Matrix New World Engineering, notified Daniel’s father back in South Carolina that Daniel had not returned from the work site and could not be reached. 

Em: [sucks in breath through teeth] Oy. 

Christine: I know, just like nightmare, nightmare. According to the advocacy site, Uncovered, Daniel’s father, David Robinson, has said that when he first called Buckeye Police to report his son missing, he was told that he’d probably come back, you know, missing people usually return, and there’s a waiting period before a report could be filed. The department has not confirmed this. Um, all we have is an official timeline that lists 7 p.m. that day as the time he was officially reported missing and was entered into the national missing person’s database. So there’s a lot of “he-said, he-said”– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –situation going on with the police force and then, um, Daniel’s father, saying like, “They botched the investigation. They didn’t handle things. They’re, they’re overlooking discrepancies.” And then the police saying, you know, “We did everything by the book, and we think this was not foul play.” So there’s this kind of play of accusations. Um, Daniel’s family thinks Ken Elliott knows more than he’s letting on or perhaps maybe even had something to do with it or is lying about the situation. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: Um, so it’s really– It’s a hard thing to kind of navigate. David Robinson immediately began arranging travel from South Carolina to Arizona. He drove cross-country to join the search, um, and then stayed to do independent searches for his son. So now we’re talking June into July of 2021. No sign of Daniel. Um, June 24, Buckeye Police continue ground searches near the job site. They activate, um, the account– uh, the UConnect account, which I guess is how they were able to locate Daniel’s Jeep. And– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –they also requested a cell phone ping to see where his phone had been last picked up. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And Tempe Police performed a welfare check also at Daniel’s apartment. On June 25, a Phoenix Firebird helicopter conducted an aerial search of the desert area, and Buckeye police continued ground searches, but still no sign of anything. 

Em: Jesus. And also like when I’m thinking of ther– uh, deserts– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: [stumbling] –ther, thes– okay, whatever. When um, whenever I’m thinking of deserts, I think of just like nothing but flat ground sand and nothing else. So in my mind, from an aerial view, this should be the easiest search ever. It’s like– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –“Is there a dot on the sand?” 

Christine: I mean, if you think about it, there– he was out there to look at wells like, um– 

Em: That’s true. Yeah. 

Christine: –in-ground wells, um, I imagine like you were saying with mining and all that kind of stuff, you know, um– or ravines, that kind of thing. But yeah, typically it’s not like a forest where you’re totally obscured by trees and that kind of thing. 

Em: Yeah, I would imagine that this– they’re thinking, “At least this isn’t a forest that we have to look through–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm, yeah. 

Em: “–’cause it’s covered by trees.” 

Christine: But then again think about how vast it is, you know. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: You have to really, really, um, do a very careful kind of tracking of how you search. So in early July, Buckeye Police searched Daniel’s Tempe apartment, coordinated further searches with Civil Air Patrol, did more aerial sweeps of the region – nothing. By mid-September, Buckeye Police stated they had searched more than 70 square miles of desert using ground teams, UTVs, cadaver dogs, drones, and helicopters. And yet, they still have no, no clues as to where he is. 

Em: Mm. [sighs] 

Christine: July 19, 2021: this is when they discovered Daniel’s Jeep. July 19, nearly a month after Daniel was last seen, a local rancher discovered his 2017 Jeep Renegade lying on its side– 

Em: [sucks in a breath through teeth] 

Christine: –in a desert ravine– 

Em: Oh… 

Christine: –on private land. And that’s the other thing, you know, if people own the land and, um, they’re the only ones with access to it, like maybe it just doesn’t get looked at for a while, you know? 

Em: Right. 

Christine: So this rancher finds this Jeep, and it’s lying on its side in a desert ravine on private land approximately three to four miles southwest of Daniel’s job site from that June day. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Buckeye Police said that rough terrain and the Jeep’s position in the ravine made it difficult to spot from the air, um, and from prior ground searches. The Jeep had significant damage consistent with a rollover. The airbags had been deployed, and initial evidence indicated that the driver had been wearing a seat belt at the time of the crash, which is all just fascinating. 

Em: It does sound like could it, could it have just been a car accident? And then he crawled away, and something happened? 

Christine: Sure could have been. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Sure could have been. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. And that’s why it’s so frustrating. It’s like there are so many possible explanations, um, but then just some weird details that don’t quite add up, you know? 

Em: Right. Yeah. Especially the– his behavior leading up to this seems, seems off. 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Felt a little erratic. Investigators at the scene found multiple personal effects associated with Daniel. They did not find Daniel, but they found a pair of inside-out jeans, a T-shirt, two inside-out socks, brown work-type boots, and a faded orange safety vest with a company logo. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: They also located a wallet with his college ID. They located his cell phone, his car and house keys, and a backpack with work equipment. 

Em: Shit. 

Christine: And not only that, but there was a whole case of bottled water still in the Jeep. 

Em: And he wouldn’t have– I mean– 

Christine: He would have known, right? 

Em: Yeah. I, I– Unless he like was acting erratic, so he was driving erratic– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and then he got in a car accident. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I would have to assume you’re hitting your head or something– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: –for you to be disoriented enough for you to leave your phone and keys and maybe a bottle of water– 

Christine: And water, like a whole case of water. 

Em: Um, yeah, I feel like he hit his head and just crawled away and got, mm, got lost. I don’t know. 

Christine: You know, again, possible. One of the theories I read online was that, um– And again, please take this with a grain of salt, everyone. I’m saying, “read the theory online,” and I mean that. Um, that, that’s as much, you know, credibility as I have toward these theories. But, um, as far as like– Somebody mentioned, you know, think about it if you were in that scenario and maybe you were knocked out for a while, and you started to suffer from heat stroke or something in the desert, right? It’s like 115 degrees. And then you wake up, and, you know, um, you’re disoriented; you’re suffering from heat stroke; and you know how people begin taking their clothes off when they’re either feeling– have experienced a traumatic situation that happens or when you’re suffering from like, uh, extreme temperature dysregulation, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, so that would make some sense with the clothes. We don’t know if he had an extra pair of clothes with him that he would have changed into. Um, the clothes didn’t have blood on them, which was a little bit surprising. Like there was no blood in the car. Um, but like yeah, he could have hit his head. Um, he could have been knocked out. He could have been having some sort of break from reality– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –and wasn’t thinking clearly, you know? Um, or it could have been foul play, right? Like there’s no real way to know for sure. 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: Investigators told Dateline there were no calls for help from Daniel’s phone after the crash. Um, and since that day, there had been no cash withdrawn and no signs that he left the scene with money or with any way to communicate. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: The fact that he apparently left on foot without his phone, wallet, or all the water has been described, of course, as one of the most puzzling elements of the scene. 

Em: 100%. 

Christine: Um, and the clothes that were left there do match what Daniel was believed to have been wearing that day, so it’s a little strange. Um, you know, why– Like one shoe was like outside the Jeep; one was inside the Jeep. Um, the clothes were tossed off. 

Em: And inside-out, which means he was just ripping them off. 

Christine: Right. Right. That too, the socks and everything. Um, there was a hard hat filled with rainwater that was also recovered inside the Jeep. And that was consistent with the vehicle having been exposed to some rain over– you know, some weather over a period of time. No blood or clear signs of injury were documented, and Daniel, like I said, was not found anywhere near the crash site. Based on the scene and the presence of Daniel’s belongings in the Jeep, Buckeye Police stated that no foul play was suspected, describing the situation as a missing person with a vehicle crash. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And again, not like– not to make that any less tragic, right? Of course, if this was a young man who was suffering from some sort of mental episode or, um, suicidal ideation that j– just as tragic, you know, and it– just still wanna find him as much as you would before, but, um, there’s just debate as to like how he ended up missing. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: After the Jeep was recovered, Buckeye Police downloaded crash data from the vehicle’s internal systems on July 21 and processed the Jeep for evidence July 22. In September and October of that year, the department hired a company called San Tan Recon, which is a collision investigation firm. So they do like, um, independent crash analysis and go to crash sites and like– I think it’s fascinating and like study– 

Em: I didn’t even– It didn’t even occur to me that that would be a job. 

Christine: Yeah, there’s like forensic everything nowadays, you know, especially ’cause cars have like computers basically. 

Em: Oh, yeah. Okay. Right. 

Christine: And you can, you can basically test, uh, for all sorts of stuff. But even this is debated because people have kind of come away with different conclusions. So San Tan Recon, their report concluded that Daniel’s Jeep had been involved in a rollover crash and that this crash was the only collision recorded in the vehicle’s internal systems. The report stated that the Jeep’s speed increased just before impact, which could indicate that the driver attempted to drive up the far side of the ravine but misjudged the terrain and toppled over. 

Em: Mm, okay. 

Christine: Crash data logs indicated there were more than 40 ignition cycles after the crash, which is so scary. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Um, which San Tan Recon suggested could reflect attempts to either restart the vehicle or to use the electric system, like the AC or the radio. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: The report noted that some of the ignition cycles might have occurred during towing or during evidence download while they were trying to access the data from the car. Maybe that contributed– 

Em: Still. 

Christine: –to some of the 40 starts, but yeah, 40 feels a lot. 

Em: That’s still like 25 that were him. 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: The report also identified– And this is where people get, um– This is one of those things that gets debated. The report also identified an approximately 11-mile discrepancy between the crash data mileage and the odometer reading. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: And San Tan Recon concluded that such discrepancies were not unusual and had been observed by Jeep service departments before. So they’re basically saying, “Oh, 11 miles, that could just be like a fluke, like some sort of discrepancy.” 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Yeah. And so I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know enough about vehicle forensics or what have you. But Daniel’s family says, “Hey, you need a better explanation for those 11 miles.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, and some people claim, “Well, maybe the 11 miles were added when the car was towed to, to the odometer. Maybe those 11 miles were added when it was towed somewhere.” Turns out the car was actually towed on the flatbed of a truck, so that wouldn’t have added to it. So there’s just a little bit of like confusion surrounding that fact, especially. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: And it’s not like half a mile, right? It’s like 11 miles feels– 

Em: That’s– 

Christine: But I don’t know. Maybe that’s just a Jeep thing. Jeep has weird things, you know. 

Em: Jeep has weird things. They got that death rattle. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: Yeah. I don’t know. It– Like what, what is the limit for when it starts looking weird. 

Christine: Right? Right. 

Em: I feel like over ten is weird. 

Christine: It feels weird. But again, like [sighs] maybe I just don’t know enough about cars. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I just think about Ferris Bueller when they were like spinning the tires to make the odometer go backwards. 

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think of, um, Matilda and Danny Devito when he’s like scamming at a car lot– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –to like make the mileage go down. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. Definitely, um– 

Em: Look at us. 

Christine: –different generational [laughs]– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –generational callouts. Um, okay. So the family was not really feeling it with these results that the police came back with. And so they hired a private investigator named Jeff McGrath. He, uh, was an accident reconstructionist and a former police officer and detective. And so when he was hired to look into this Jeep crash, he was able to analyze it as well and kind of give his own independent, um, analysis of what happened. McGrath has publicly stated that he believes the crash scene was staged. And– 

Em: Oh! Interesting. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: Okay, shit. 

Christine: This is where it gets like, “Oh, shit,” right? So he believes that the crash scene was staged and that the vehicle may have been moved after the initial crash. 

Em: Moved to where though? We don’t know? 

Christine: I guess 11 miles from wherever it had initially crashed. 

Em: Sure, yeah. 

Christine: I don’t know. He has said that after the airbags deployed, the in– ignition appears to have been turned over dozens of times and that crash data logs show an additional distance of these roughly 11 miles after the airbag deployed– 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: –suggesting that the Jeep might have been driven after the recorded crash and then left kind of toppled over to look like it had crashed there. Now, of course– 

Em: Weird. 

Christine: –this totally differs from the official conclusion, um, which was that this discrepancy was not unheard of or unusual. 

Em: I mean, I really was feeling kind of confident in my like mental health one and like just– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –like hit his head, and now with the– 

Christine: It’s sort of one of those where you, you really b– you really are drawn to one theory, and you’re like, “Yeah, that’s surely what happened.” And then you hear a few more details, and you’re like, “Well…” It just like wriggles in a little doubt. You know what I mean? 

Em: Yeah. For an expert to be saying it’s not– I mean, that– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: I’m sure that also like didn’t help the family come to terms with maybe him having a mental health thing. He was– 

Christine: No. 

Em: They’re like, “Well, the experts literally think he didn’t–“ 

Christine: Well, exactly. And, and– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Right. And so they’re gonna trust their own, you know, side of the story, and they’ve really stuck to it. McGrath also reported finding apparent red paint transfer on Daniel’s Jeep, which he believes indicates a prior collision with another vehicle, uh– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –before coming to rest in the ravine. So Daniel’s father and supporters cite these findings as evidence that someone else may have been involved and that foul play cannot be ruled out. And that’s where they differ from the official ruling. On July 29, 2021, volunteer search crews located a human skull south of where the Jeep was recovered– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –but testing determined that the remains did not belong to Daniel Robinson. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: In November, more human remains were found. This is how in-depth– I feel like this goes to show how in-depth their searches were. They did so many searches. They found two sets of human remains that were not his. 

Em: That’s wild, especially because in a lot of your stories, I end up losing faith in like the search process– 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: –and I’m like, “Oh, it feels like they could have done more.” And this town is like, “We’re doing everything we fucking can.” 

Christine: Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s, it’s the town. It’s, um, his family who came from Arizona. His dad basically uprooted his– I’m sorry, came from South Carolina. His dad basically uprooted his whole life to move to Arizona– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –or at least for the most of the year and spend time searching. Um– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: I was on Reddit, and people were saying, “Yeah, like–“ um, again, grain of salt, but people were saying, you know, “I was in the area. I remember when searches were happening, and it was all hands on deck. People were out there doing grid searches, searching um, over and over again.” And the fact that they found two sets of human remains that were not Daniel’s is pretty wild to me. 

Em: Yeah, insane. 

Christine: Yeah. Buckeye Police have also said y– uh, other bones discovered during searches were analyzed but were confirmed to be animal remains. As of mid 2024, extensive volunteer searches led by Daniel’s father and organizations such as Please Help Find Daniel have covered large areas of desert around Sun Valley Parkway and beyond, but there’s still no confirmed trace of Daniel’s body. Which is so alarming too– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –that the car was found, and you’re able to do like almost a search around the car and expand and still find nothing. It’s just shocking to me. 

Em: Do they, do they also believe that like since it was kind of– if it was a setup that even the clothes being there was a setup? Like, like basically they– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: They think that whoever did it made the story look so obviously like mental health that I’m just totally falling for it? 

Christine: Yeah, or just like not even necessarily mental health, but just like, “Oh, I’ve killed this person. Now I’m gonna leave his car in a ditch and hide the body or whatever.” 

Em: Just make it look self-inflicted or something or whatever it is. 

Christine: Yeah. Just act like he crashed– 

Em: [sighs] Wow. 

Christine: –and, and walked away for help and never came back. Something like that, I think, is– I believe is the, is the theory. 

Em: This has dropped me down a few pegs on thinking I could be a detective because I’m really convinced the other way. 

Christine: It’s confusing. It’s so confusing. 

Em: Where do you stand? Or do you not want to say? 

Christine: Um, I’ll say I think at the end ’cause I– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –[sighs] I do– I feel like there is more to kind of add to the, to the, to the description, to the evidence. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Um, so police have said they investigated at least one reported sighting of Daniel. ’Cause again we have no proof that he’s even dead, right? Like– I mean, Occam’s razor says pr-probably, but like there’s no proof of that. Um, they concluded that digital evidence from his phone and vehicle did not match any witness accounts, um, that have come through. David Robinson, the father, has stated that Tempe Police forensic review of Daniel’s electronics indicated that someone accessed his apartment and used his computer after June 23, after he disappeared. 

Em: [sucks in a breath] Ooh. Okay. 

Christine: But that’s also not anything we have publicly proven. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Because the Buckeye Police say, “Nope, our digital forensics did not find any, any note of that.” 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But then the family says Tempe Police said that there was somebody searching his Google history, “fooling around” on his computer. Um, but then the police are like, “Nope.” So it’s– again, like “he-said, he-said.” So [sighs] it’s just really a messy situation and just really tragic. Um, like I said, Daniel’s father has been publicly very critical of the initial law enforcement response, uh, arguing that police were slow to treat his son’s case as urgent and did not maximize early resources. He said he has to push for additional rese– uh, additional searches and ultimately just began doing his own large-scale volunteer search oper-operations. And I think that’s not abnormal for a missing person’s case. I feel that that– 

Em: No. 

Christine: –is a common situation that it ends up being volunteer-le– led and family-led. Um– 

Em: Yeah, his family seems to like really give a shit. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Like super duper– 

Christine: Really care to, to their core. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Other family members have echoed this concern, um, telling reporters they worry that early delays could have cost valuable time and evidence. Buckeye Police, in public statements and on the official case page, say they’ve worked continuously on the case, searched more than 70 square miles, coordinated with multiple outside agencies, and remain committed to locating Daniel, reiterating though that foul play is not suspected based on the evidence they have reviewed. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Daniel’s father, David, like I said, relocated much of his life to Arizona. Um, he searches and advocates for his son on an almost daily basis. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: He has organized dozens of volunteer searches in the desert. And by April 2025, he described a major search as their 50th organized effort to search for Daniel, saying– 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: It’s just so heartbreaking. Um– 

Em: And I can’t even tell– I mean, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know, but to hear that when they found two other sets of human remains, I don’t even know if that gives me hope or if that gives me less hope– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –because it’s like, “Oh, well, they were able to find these. We weren’t even looking for them.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “So maybe– But then that would– I guess that would mean– But if they couldn’t find him, but they could find these other things, then what does that tell you?” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “That he’s not around? Or–?” Oh my god. 

Christine: It’s almost like what does that even mean? What does that mean for this case? 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: The case has drawn national attention from missing persons advocates and other families, um, in large part because in 2025, Gabby Petito’s father, Joseph Petito– because I don’t know if you remember when Gabby Petito– um, that whole, whole thing unfolded um, that was during this time that Daniel disappeared. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: And so in 2025, Gabby Petito’s father, Joseph, joined one of the searches for Daniel Robinson and expressed public solidarity with David Robinson and called attention to Daniel’s still unresolved disappearance. Daniel’s family maintains social media accounts dedicated to the search. Um, they don’t like to have people come on and say it’s mental health or what have you. They’re pretty much closed off to that angle um, for what it’s worth. Um, you can go on other subreddits like /Unresolved Mysteries and, and see more kind of, um, Occam’s razor style takes of mental health or– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –car crash, that kind of thing. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: As far as we know, there’s about a $10,000 reward for information leading to Daniel’s whereabouts that’s still active. As of mid-2024 into 2025, Daniel Robinson remains missing. Um, this year, nothing new has emerged. Um, no confirmed physical remains have been identified as his. The Buckeye Police Department lists his case as an open missing person’s investigation and states on its official site that foul play is not suspected. Investigators say they continue to analyze evidence. Um, and they say the FBI was briefed on the case, but uh, Daniel’s father says that the police are lying about that. So that’s another kind of conflicting story. 

Em: Mhm. 

Christine: Daniel’s father, PIs, and many supporters argue that the available evidence, including the condition of the Jeep, the clothing in and around it, the crash data anomalies, and the alleged post-disappearance computer activity point toward the possibility of foul play and that they need to look into that angle, which I mean is a fair request, I would say. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So as for what we don’t know– We don’t know much, but it remains unknown why Daniel left his work site after only 15 minutes, drove deeper into the desert instead of back toward Phoenix, and never contacted his family or employer again. There’s still no total definitive explanation for the condition of the cras– crash site, including why his clothes and boots were found, um, in or near the jeep while he was not and why there was no blood or evidence of injury in the vehicle. 

Em: That’s what freaks me out too. Like I feel– 

Christine: It’s weird, right? 

Em: I feel like if there was foul play, there would be at least some evidence of blood. But I guess if the car was moved and, you know, maybe something happened later. 

Christine: Well, they’re saying they’re surprised there’s no sign of blood after a crash. 

Em: Oh! I wasn’t even thinking about that. 

Christine: Like that there was no sign of blood like anywhere in the car after what seemed to be a pretty big car crash. 

Em: I, I guess so. I’m less surprised by that– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –’cause I feel like it– You could have just flipped and hit your head, and that was kind of it. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree. That’s kind of, kind of easily debunked in my mind. Um, the discrepancy between the official San Tan Recon crash report, which concluded that the odometer difference was not unusual, and the PI’s view that this appears– the car appears to have been driven after airbag deployment remains unresolved. There’s no, um– 

Em: Mm-hmm. That is odd. 

Christine: There’s no– what do you call it? Uh, solution there between those two conflicting accounts. Allegations that someone accessed Daniel’s apartment and computer, uh, after he disappeared, combined with the absence of a named suspect, continue to fuel speculation that another person may have been involved, um, even though the police state that digital forensics show no sign of foul play. And then more than three years after Daniel was last seen, we basically– all we have as the central facts of the case are that he left his remote work site; cra– his crashed vehicle was found nearly a month later with his belongings inside, but no sign of him. Extensive searches and investigations have yet to determine what happened to him or where he is. Um, but if anybody has any information, you are urged to call 623-349-6411. That is the Buckeye Police Department in Arizona. They said, “We’ll take anything, any sightings, any leads that are out there.” And that is the story of Daniel Robinson. 

Em: I also– I don’t know if this is important. I don’t know if I’m like saying something that doesn’t matter here, but you did say it was in 2021. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: It was within the year of George Floyd. Um– 

Christine: Oh, i– Oh, interesting. 

Em: And this, you know, the person that’s missing being Black– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –I don’t know if– Just because there was a rise in racial injustice and racial violence, um, I don’t know if that– it contributes at all, but it, it does– it just– I just am putting that out there too as just an added note of like– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: –maybe there was something going on there. I don’t know if Buckeye, Arizona is particularly redder or blue or whatever, but– 

Christine: I don’t know to be honest with you. And when you look at, um, the– When I– [sighs] It’s hard to say, right? ’Cause I look at it and think like, “You want to be–“ [sighs] I don’t know the right way to say it. You, you want to side with the family and say like, “Yeah, this is not fair. Like they need to look into more of this.” And then part of me looks at this young man. He’s about 24 years old, which is the age that a lot of mental illnesses present in young men. And you think like, “Okay, that’s when bipolar, schizophrenia, these things often emerge.” He’s moved away. He was rejected. He clearly was having intense feelings one way or another, um, was turned down, was, um, clearly going through it to some extent. I don’t know. I– Like part of me just thinks, “Well, it seems–“ And his friends and family said he was acting a little down or different– 

Em: Yeah. I– 

Christine: –and saying weird things. It just– I struggle to convince myself it’s anything but kind of– 

Em: Mental health? 

Christine: –the tragedy of mental health or, or some sort of head injury. But like I don’t want to dismiss the family by saying, “Oh, I know better,” ’cause I don’t, you know. 

Em: Right. I am right there with you. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And also like we don’t know. Maybe he– And this is also not to diss the family at all, but maybe this was a family who like didn’t believe in mental health issues like– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and so maybe they’re just like really digging their heels in against that. 

Christine: They don’t want to consider that. Right. 

Em: Yeah. But I mean, it, it does sound like he was having a bit of like a, a manic or psychotic episode in some way of– I don’t, I don’t know what the right word is. I, I don’t know which– I don’t want to try to diagnose him. But it sounds, it sounds like he was out of his mind a little bit and just kind of acting erratically. And I think the– If our theory is accurate and it’s a mental health thing, I think the most impressive thing is how he was able to get so far away and so hidden by the time people were looking for him. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: But I would imagine– Yeah, the car just kind of toppled over. It was glitching in some way. Or even if he tried turning it on, maybe he was kind of in and out of consciousness trying to get the car started and couldn’t or– 

Christine: And then you think like if you’re out in the heat, your car won’t start. You get heat stroke. 

Em: Yeah. You’re delusional. 

Christine: You hit your head. Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. And again, like this is a lot of ifs, right? Like if you were in this scenario and if this happened. But then if you think about it, like the foul play is a lot of ifs too. Like if somebody had it out for you and if they planted your car. It just feels like all these scenarios don’t totally add up. Um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s just hard to say. 

Em: And if it was a– If it was foul play, I mean, they did a great job covering it up because it does seem– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –more like it would be a mental health situation. Especially– It’d be one thing if this was like he drove into the city, but it’s like he drove into a very isolated area. 

Christine: Desolate, yeah. Yeah. 

Em: Like unless there was a random desert person who happened to want to hurt somebody in that exact moment and knew just how to do it and get away with it. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Or– 

Christine: That’s the other thing. Yeah. 

Em: Or maybe he drove to a completely different distance and then the guy drove the car back, but that would require somebody then either having a second car to drive away from the scene after they’ve planted the car there or walking by foot out of there, which both would have evidence too. 

Christine: Yeah, it alway– Every– All these theories add so many more like strings that would have to be attached to make it plausible. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, I really think– 

Em: Yeah, I don’t know. 

Christine: –like unless they find his remains that it’s gonna be pretty unclear, you know. Um– 

Em: I agree. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s really sad. But that is the, [sighs] that is the case. So young too. Um, really, really sad. So I just hope they get some answers, right? One way or another. Um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –eventually. So– But we’ve seen, we’ve seen much less likely cases get solved, so let’s hope. 

Em: Okay. Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And I think we’re– I think our theories are just about the same. 

Christine: Yeah. I– 

Em: If not the same. 

Christine: That’s where I end up, you know? It’s like I want to say, “Oh, yeah. There’s some big cover-up,” but it’s like it’s just hard to kind of get there, um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –mentally for me with the steps. [sighs] I don’t know, man. It’s pretty rough. But Arizona got a shout-out today, huh? 

Em: I know. Big time. 

Christine: Big time. 

Em: Um, well, thanks for your story, Christine. 

Christine: You’re welcome. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Uh, sorry for bumming you out, everyone. Um, I– While I was researching this, I’ve stumbled across several other terrible desert stories of people ending up in the desert without water and– Have you ever heard of the Death Valley Germans? It’s like this German tourist family that– 

Em: No. 

Christine: It’s so sad. It’s just horrible. Um, they wanted to go see Yosemite and like got– They think the car got trapped. And, um, these two little kids were with their parents, and they tried to walk, and it took like ten years to find their remains. It’s just horrible. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: I mean, it’s like– And people make really good point on– really good points on Reddit too of like– People who live in the area are like people underestimate how scary– 

Em: The desert is. 

Christine: –and how– how scary it is and like how quickly you can be incapacitated just by heat, by dehydration. Um– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Snakes, I mean, at night especially. Like it’s just a, a dangerous place. Um– 

Em: I mean, honestly a snake is not a bad theory with that guy too. I mean, like if the snake would just eat him whole and, and go away and digest him, and that’s how nobody would have found him. 

Christine: [chuckles] I don’t think it meant that they eat them. I think it just meant that they like bite them. 

Em: Bite them. I know, but I’m– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: I was like, “Oh, well, if we–“ 

Christine: A boa constrictor? [laughs] 

Em: “If we were to, if we were to wildly exacerbate a theory here–“ 

Christine: I think a boa constrictor, aren’t they like in the jungle? Or am I– 

Em: I don’t know how big snakes get in the theory– in the desert. 

Christine: [chuckles] Like Jungle Book? 

Em: But, uh, but to add to your point, nobody knows how scary the desert is. There could be an animal just carrying him away. 

Christine: I mean, yeah, there could be a man-eating snake in there, I guess. Yeah. 

Em: I don’t know about animals– 

Christine: I think they mostly mean rattlers, but, um– 

Em: I see. Sorry. 

Christine: In which case, you’d probably find his remains, like– 

Em: So I just looked really stupid, but– 

Christine: Probably didn’t eat him, but maybe. [laughs] 

Em: But something could have eaten him and carried him away. That is a theory we haven’t discussed. 

Christine: Uh, yeah, that’s true. But I feel like usually with animal, um, animal attacks, you’d find at least bone, like some bones, you know. 

Em: Yeah. You’re right. You’re right. You’re right. 

Christine: Um, but like maybe– I mean, again, this is such a– I feel like people underestimate just how broad a swath of land, just p– a portion of desert can be, and– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –rocks and ravines, and if he went somewhere to find shade, right? And then like stayed there and passed away. You know, there’s so many possibilities. Um, yeah. 

Em: I absolutely underestimate how scary a desert is. I’ve– It– 

Christine: I don’t know. You think that there are like man-eating snakes out there, so I think you’re just right on target. [chuckles] 

Em: I’m, I’m trying, but I’m, I’m aiming the wrong way, I think. Like I– 

Christine: That’s probably– Yeah, let’s stay, stay put where you are in LA. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: Yeah. Oh… 

Christine: We should maybe not be going to– out to the desert anytime soon, either of us. 

Em: No. Well– Yeah. Alright. Well, it, it sounds like you have other desert stories you’re looking at, so I’ll, I’ll get ready for– 

Christine: Unfortunately, I do, and they’re really scar– They really scare me. They’re like really freaky to me. 

Em: I’ll get ready for, uh, more of those then. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Good. Yeah, brace yourself, you know. 

Em: [chuckles] Alright. Well, thank you, everybody. Uh, we will see you next week for more. [Em ends the sentence in a tone of voice that sounds questioning.] And– 

Christine: For more, question mark? [laughs] That’s– 

Em: [laughs] May– Why 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink. 

---