E462 Dream Mall Rats and Whistleblowing Dogs

TOPICS: THE JANE ADDAMS HULL-HOUSE, LAUREN CHO

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It’s Episode 462 and are you enjoying our latte ASMR? This week Em takes us to Chicago for the Jane Addams Hull-House and the tale of its baby devil hauntings. Then Christine covers the death of Lauren “El” Cho, a case that deserves more coverage than it received at the time. And will someone let us into Mall World for an Auntie Anne’s pretzel please? …and that’s why we drink!

Photo Links:
Jane Addams Hull-House
Lauren Cho

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Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: [singing, on the same pitch] ♪ Mi, mi, mi, mi ♪♪ 

Em: How’s your instrument? Tune it. Tune it. 

Christine: It is– 

Em: [humming set of notes] ♪ Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm ♪♪ 

Christine: –still deeply affected– afflicted by a sinus infection. [laughs] But you know what? Otherwise– 

Em: Oh m– 

Christine: It’s not like the cute thing where like on Friends where my voice sounds better when I’m sick. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: It just sounds more nasally, and I blow my nose a lot, and it’s really unfortunate. So I do apologize. I was hoping by now, mid-Decemberish, that I’d be, uh, healed, but I guess I’m just in for perpetual illness. 

Em: I, I don’t envy you, but I also– I have, um, evaded getting a cold so many times already that my day is coming. And like– 

Christine: That’s what happened. It took me like two y– I think I m– Someone listening is like, “You were sick three months ago.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Probably true, but it feels like I haven’t been sick in so long, and this one just like came back to kick my ass, you know? 

Em: I– The worst colds are when you haven’t had a cold in a while– 

Christine: I think that’s what’s happening. 

Em: –and it’s like all building up. It’s like vengeance on you. 

Christine: It’s like, “While we’re here, why don’t I add a couple other viruses to the mix?” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. I feel like I accidentally just conjured it by saying, “Oh, I’m due.” 

Christine: Oops. 

Em: Um, but [chuckles] I, I just went to, um, Seattle for Thanksgiving. I have– a s– There was a few people there sick that– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Big group. 

Em: It, it almost, it almost got me there, but I dodged her. 

Christine: It almost got me. [laughs] 

Em: Um, there have been a few times where someone’s like, “Oh, by the way, I, I’m sick, and I found– I just found out. Whoops.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And then I’m like, “Ah…” So I’m, I’m really– 

Christine: Just like– 

Em: I’m just gonna stay inside. 

Christine: Yeah, I think that’s probably the best situation for everybody. Um– 

Em: You’re– 

Christine: –and for like it’s hibernation season, you know. Like why the– 

Em: Couldn’t sound more like an introvert. 

Christine: I know. [chuckles] It’s really nice. It feels so good. I don’t– I haven’t left the hous– I have like a little app where I track like daily– like just to like see like moods and like what I did today and like did I brush my teeth and all these other things that helps with ADHD and stuff. And, um, for the last like four days I’ve had to check “not left the house” [chuckles] and I’m like– 

Em: [chuckles] Is– 

Christine: –this is getting– It’s getting to be a lot. 

Em: Is that like a reward or a bad thing on your list? 

Christine: No, I mean it’s not anything. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: It’s just like, “Oh, I’m just gonna mark it to like, ‘later, see.’” But I’ve noticed it doesn’t really affect my mood as much as I thought it would. Like my mood’s still kind of– It’s not dependent on whether I leave. I think in the winter. I think when it’s nice out I start to feel kind of weird if I don’t leave the house. 

Em: Mm, interesting. 

Christine: But when it’s cold, fuck that, man. 

Em: But that’s– I mean, I, I understand totally because, um, well, when it comes to the winter– During the summer, I don’t– I, I love being inside [chuckles] so like– 

Christine: Yeah, it’s the best. 

Em: It really doesn’t affect me all that much. In the winter, I think I enjoy it more because then nobody judges me for not leaving. ’Cause I’m like– 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. It feels like, “Oh, we’re hibernating.” 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: “That’s part of the whole thing.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. During the– 

Christine: I mean, you know, you read about like hygge or whatever in, uh, in like Sweden, you know– 

Em: Nope. 

Christine: Your face– [laughs] Okay. In like Denmark and Sweden– 

Em: You know, you read about, [gibberish] “bleh-eh-eh,” you know. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Okay, it’s called hygge [pronounced “hoo-guh”] H-Y-G-G-E. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: You may have seen that word around. It’s like this concept of like, um– It’s like this Nordic concept of like cozy– Like they get rough winters, um– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –but like Denmark is, I think, the happiest– It’s either– I think Denmark is the happiest country in the world. And so they’ve done studies like “How on earth do these people– or how are they so happy?” And then they don’t get sunlight, and they don’t leave the house. And it’s because they have this concept of like, “Oh, we all just like bundle up indoors.” The floors are heated. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Like every house has heated floors. Everything is like built for you to be comfortable. Y– 

Em: The system is rigged for them. Like– [laughs] 

Christine: Exactly. And like you have like these built-in communal events and family things, so you’re not like alone, you know? And so it’s all kind of structured in this community way, which I think is lovely. And like I don’t have that here. I’m living in a mess, and it’s chaotic, and I’m usually by myself, but, you know, it’s a really great concept to strive for. 

Em: I love that. I mean, I would love to practice that because, um, I’m already inside– 

Christine: You would love it. 

Em: –and now it’s like– 

Christine: It’s like, it’s like cozy– cabin cozy type, you know? It’s like that vibe, and it’s, it’s really lovely. And it’s like kind of e– It’s universal there. Like it’s not a class thing. It’s not like, “Oh, certain families have it; certain people don’t.” Um, it’s just kind of the norm, and I thought that was really, really charming. 

Em: I love that. I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Thank you. I have seen that word, and I’ve, one, never knew how to pronounce it, and, two, never knew what it was. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s a weird one. It’s a weird one. 

Em: Um, yeah. You just, um, gave me a rabbit hole. Thank you so much. 

Christine: Oh, speaking of rabbit holes, can I tell you why I drink this week? 

Em: That– It would be weird if you didn’t on this show. 

Christine: Okay, [laughs] fair enough. Um, so I’ve been– I’ve like stumbled upon this before. I mentioned this right before we recorded as something I want to talk about more in the, um– interim? What do we call it? The intermission? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But it’s the, uh, idea of the, the GATE program and how– Okay, so Gifted and Talented programs and how– 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: –they are– Like I’m sure you’ve seen this on like TikTok and stuff. Of like how they were related to– potentially, the theory, uh– the, um– What do you call it? Uh, conspiracy theory is that it’s connected som– in some way to, uh, the CIA and their like study of, um, psychic abilities and remote viewing and all that and– 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: –different altered states of consciousness. And so I went down this rabbit hole on TikTok of people saying like, “Remember you’d get called in for a hearing test? And they would put these big like headphones on you–“ 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: “–and they’d be like different levels of frequency and sounds, and this guy would be giving you instructions? And then they would only pull certain kids, and then you’d like–“ There were so many creepy things like, “Oh, there was a little pink drink they had you drink beforehand,” and I’m like, “What the fuck?” 

Em: You know– 

Christine: And I went through this rabbit hole of like, “Oh, shit. I remember half this stuff.” And I remember my mom pulling me out of it ’cause she was like, “I’m not comfortable with this,” and she asked too many questions, and they were like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –“You’re no longer part of the program.” 

Em: “You’re not eligible for–“ 

Christine: “You’re no longer eligible, no.” 

Em: Uh, you know, I’m not on that side of TikTok, but I fully could get invested today. Like it– 

Christine: It's fascinating. 

Em: Um, I thought you were gonna go a different route. Well, first of all, I didn’t know what the GATE program was until you just said Gifted and Talented. Um– 

Christine: I think GATE is the CIA one. I think I’m getting them conflated. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Like I think GATE is CIA and then G– Like Gifted and Talented is the like actual, but it– They’re like weirdly close by a letter. You know what I mean? 

Em: Sure, sure. 

Christine: So that’s part of the conspiracy. 

Em: I, um, I thought you were gonna go– The route I’m on where ev– anytime I hear Gifted and Talented on my TikTok, it’s because someone’s talking about how they were actually just, um, neurodivergent. [chuckles] 

Christine: Oh, yeah. We’re all so mentally ill and neurodivergent and– Yeah, etc. Yeah. 

Em: It’s like they just needed a place to put us until everyone caught up or until we caught up. 

Christine: Yeah. We were just like different. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Um– 

Christine: They’re probably– Those probably also end up going hand-in-hand, those two– 

Em: I was gonna say, there’s an– 

Christine: –rabbit holes, yeah. [chuckles] 

Em: –there’s an overlap there. Well, didn’t you say like a lot of neurodivergent kids are involved in the telepathy tapes or something? 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. 

Em: So like maybe there is like go into the Gifted Program– 

Christine: The autism spectrum. Yeah. 

Em: –then you get recruited. There’s something about the telepathy tapes. I’ve o– I’ve obviously never experienced anything about the– I don’t know what that’s about, but I’ve heard a million people tell me it’s in– so incredible. Um– 

Christine: Oh, it’s so good. It’s so good and so cra– I mean it like blows your whole worldview wide open, so. 

Em: But as, as you’ve– Excellent other rabbit hole to put me down. Thank you so much. 

Christine: Yeah. No, that one’s fun. I’m glad that you haven’t like gone down it yet ’cause I feel like we have a lot to discuss once you do. Um– 

Em: You’re totally right. Why the fuck were they making us go sit in trucks and listen really hard? [laughs] 

Christine: Okay. And it was always like a truck, right? 

Em: It was always like a mobile truck. 

Christine: Like I’m like why was it away from school? Like it was always in a truck, and it was always like– or a trailer or whatever, and it would be like random. Like some kids would get called out randomly, and then like you never got– I mean, as far as I know, never got results or like– 

Em: Yeah, I never got results. 

Christine: It was so weird. 

Em: I guess the res– I, I’ve– And I’m sure there’s some excuse there. 

Christine: I know they do hearing te– 

Em: W– Excuse– The truth maybe, but like– [laughs] 

Christine: This excuse? [laughs] They have some excuse they’re gonna tell us. Yeah. 

Em: But, um, no, I, I remember it happening like randomly one year only and then never hearing– 

Christine: Yeah, it’s weird. 

Em: I guess like to evade embarrassment, maybe they wouldn’t tell you there were good or bad results unless they really need to talk to you or something? But like– 

Christine: I guess. 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: They’re like, “We don’t want to embarrass you, but you can’t hear out of your left ear.” 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. Also like did we need a test for that? I’m pretty sure, um, we would know already. 

Christine: Don’t they do that– I, I do know they do hearing tests– or at least a lot of places, states do hearing tests, and so I’m like, “I get it.” And I have gone to– When I, you know, famously punctured my own eardr, um– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –um, I did go to the ear doctor, and they did a hearing test. And it was in a weird closet, and they did put these giant ‘80s headphones on me. So part of me is like, “Okay, to be fair, like the real hearing test I got was pretty similar,” but it’s all the other stuff. Like how they were kind of random and sporadic and then also always in a trailer. And then always, um– Like not always, but a lot of people had to drink this weird pink fluoride– 

Em: The pink stuff, yeah. 

Christine: –drink, which is like what the fuck is that about? Like if my daughter came home and was like, “They made me drink this gross thing and like–“ 

Em: I’d be like, “There’s robots in your body now.” Like I– [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, like “I’m calling the police. What the fuck?” you know. “They can’t make you drink a gross pink mystery cocktail”. I don’t know. It’s just like, “What’s going on?” And then they would like have us lay down. And some people talk about like– Oh, and they would never let you bring home your paperwork. And, um– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –a couple people on TikTok have found like their old folders that they like somehow had kept and like they would go through, and there are some weird ass worksheets in there, like “decode Russian letters.” And it was like practicing like decoding all these random symbols and letters. 

Em: You buried, buried the lead, Christine. That’s incredible. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. And then a lot of the paperwork too is– And they have like the originals from the ‘90s or early 2000s, and it’ll be like, um, all about– Like they were apparently obsessed with whales, and everyone’s like, “Oh, yeah. I remember learning so much about whales.” And then somebody said, “Well, think about it. They communicate with like–“ 

Em: Echolocation. 

Christine: “–frequency– like sound.” Yeah. And it’s like, you know, maybe there’s something to it. I don’t know. Listen, it’s a great rabbit hole. Oh! Oh my god. And then Mall World. Have you heard of Mall World? I’m really losing it. This is why I should probably leave the house. Everyone’s like, “Okay, we’re starting to worry.” But really, it’s fascinating. This woman on TikTok made a post called Mall World, and she’s like, “I decided to map out where I dream every night. Like, I go to this place that I call Mall World. I’m going to map it out. It’s so ridiculous.” And everyone in the comment– not everyone, but a lot of people in the comments are like, “That’s where I go when I dream.” And– 

Em: Oh, shit. 

Christine: –I shit you not, I’m looking at this going, “Holy fuck. The parking garage is right there. I know exactly where that parking garage is.” 

Em: What the fuck? 

Christine: I know. And now I’m like in this extra rabbit hole of like, “What is this weird communal consciousness of like where we go to dream?” And like I have these– 

Em: Does Mall World have anything to do with a mall? Is it a mall? Is that what y– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Well, there’s a mall, and then it has all these other things attached to it. So there’s like a water park, where I’ve been to. Although in my dream, it was Jason Derulo’s water park. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] And there’s a water park attached to it– 

Em: And you know what? In Jason Derulo’s dream too, it’s his water park. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] In it– No, in that dream, it’s h– my water park. 

Em: Oh, oh, right. [laughs] 

Christine: In his dream, it’s my water park. [laughs] But it’s like, oh, there’s all these parking garages. And then there are the bathrooms where there a– like thousands of stalls, and they’re all broken. And it’s like, “Yeah, we’ve all been there.” Um, just weird stuff where it’s like, it’s probably some universal consciousness like human dream– 

Em: Fascinating. 

Christine: It’s probably just how our brains work or whatever, like the same as we see the Hat Ma– you know, so many people see things like the Hat Man or whatever. Maybe it’s something to do with that. But, um– 

Em: I wonder if you have t– 

Christine: It’s fascinating. 

Em: I wonder if like you have to have like s-some– I’m, I’m about to sound like a wild person ’cause I’m trying to rationalize dreams, but, um– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –maybe you have to have like some sort of clearance to access Mall World because I don’t have that clearance. I have– Nothing you said I’ve ever dreamt, but I have worlds that I go to and maybe that’s like on the other side of town. 

Christine: Maybe there are other people who do like– who go to that one, you know? 

Em: Maybe like it’s like a very like segregated space where it’s like– 

Christine: Maybe. 

Em: –“Oh, all the mall rats go here, and then all the people that go to– I don’t know, some other location go to–“ 

Christine: There’s also an airport though attached to it. So it’s like, oh– 

Em: S– Oh, so, so the, the– That means canonically people do fly to other locations. 

Christine: Well, the thing is every time I’m in the airport– which I’ve had the same dream for like three nights in a row, and it’s like a stress dream, I think. I’m always like running late or missing my flight or can’t find my suitcase. So it’s never like I leave the airport. [laughs] It’s like I’m just trapped there. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: And so, a lot of the dreams that people talk about are like, “Oh, I’m here, but I’m always stuck.” Or, “I can’t find the exit,” or, “It’s so big that I never make it to the car,” or whatever. And then one of the theories, speaking of sounding absolutely nutty, here I go. Um, one of the theories is like, “Well, maybe this is just like a holding place so that we don’t– like to keep us like little lab rats–“ 

Em: Well– 

Christine: “–like keep us safe, so we’re not like wandering off into consciousness, like into dangerous territory.” 

Em: I, I– That doesn’t sound crazy to me. My guess was gonna be, “Oh, well, then that just proves that things are a simulation, and you just hit like the corner of a game,” yeah. 

Christine: “That’s where we all go.” Yeah, exactly. It’s fascinating. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And when she, she was like, “I just posted Mall World as kind of a joke to be like, “Oh, look at this crazy place I’ve– I dream about.” And everyone was like, “I’ve been there.” And I had this freakout moment where I was like, “Oh, no, but sometimes I dream like I’m in a parking garage,” and then I look and I’m like, “Oh my god, it’s right there. I see exactly– And that’s where the entrance is.” It’s so weird. Anyway, it’s a rabbit hole again. Uh, but I will s– 

Em: It’s also blowing my mind ’cause now– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –I’m like, well, “Maybe, maybe if there are corners of the game where like you can’t get farther than–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: “–which would then mean I, I thought I was on another side of town, but there is no other side of town.” Maybe it’s like an elevator, and I’m downstairs. 

Christine: Oh, creepy. Yep, yep. 

Em: Interesting, interesting, interesting. 

Christine: Yeah, at, uh– during the intermission today/Yappy Hour, we should– um, I, I’ll pull up the map, [chuckles] the handdrawn map– 

Em: Yeah, I would love that. 

Christine: –and we’ll see if there are any crossover, you know? 

Em: I would love that. Wow. Remember when you said we should do this for intermission and now we’ve talked for l– [laughs] 

Christine: I know, and then I just couldn’t help myself immediately. Zero chill. 

Em: No, that’s a f– That’s fascinating. That’s fascinating. Hm. 

Christine: Um, anyway, why do you drink? 

Em: Uh, I drink because, um, my tea doesn’t have any lavender syrup in it, and I– 

Christine: Mm! 

Em: –ordered it that way. So I’m kind of– 

Christine: Travesty. 

Em: Now it just tastes like– I don’t know. 

Christine: Tea? 

Em: Just plain raw tea. 

Christine: Leaf water? 

Em: Yeah. Just dirt, kinda. 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: Um, I do have lavender in the fridge, but I’m like, [sighs] “Do I really wanna get up?” Um, so– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –[chuckles] that’s the, that’s the one thing. Oh, the real reason I drink this week is because, uh, this weekend I went to go see the, the, the play. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. Um, it– I don’t– I, I think it’s, I think it’s new. Um, it’s called– It’s Paranormal Activity, based on the movie, um, but it’s a play version. 

Christine: No? 

Em: And I didn’t even know about it until I saw like– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –people posting that they went there on Instagram, and I was like, “I’ve got time this weekend.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: So I popped on over. I have never– That was such a good fucking play. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: If it comes to your town for some reason, e– you have to go. 

Christine: It’s just called Paranormal Activity? 

Em: It’s like P– Yeah. And I– And– 

Christine: Oh, hell yeah. 

Em: –I haven’t seen the movie in a long time, but I think it’s inspired by. 

Christine: That’s one of the only ones I’ve ever seen, like one of the only horror films I’ve actually watched in my adult years. 

Em: It’s, it’s inspired by. It’s not like a, like a true from the movie. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: It’s like just like, oh, you get to watch paranormal activity happen live basically. 

Christine: Ooh, how fun is that? 

Em: It was, and actually I’m not kidding, so fucking scary. Like I’ve never been– 

Christine: That’s what I was gonna ask. 

Em: I’ve never been in a theater– It was like, it was like watching a movie becau– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and everyone had been given permission to react wildly because everyone in the audience was like, [pretending to yell] “Don’t go in there!” Like– 

Christine: Oh my god. Wait, I’m so excited. I want to see it. 

Em: It was super scary. There’s one scene in s– in particular. I’m not gonna spoil anything for anyone, but it– that was– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: I was watching it, and I was like, “Oh, this is–“ Like I was jumping every now and then ’cause like– 

Christine: Did you go alone? 

Em: Yeah, I did. ’Cause I, I– 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: I just went randomly. And also I’m kind of like a, a theater sp-specific– I like to sit in one spot specifically. So I was like if I– 

Christine: Okay, you have your own seat. 

Em: Well, there was only one seat left in that area, and I was like, [scoffs] “It’s meant to be.” So– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –I popped on over. And, um, anyway, I was sitting there, and I was like, “I can’t imagine this is really gonna be scary like– but people are saying it’s really good, so I’m just gonna enjoy the show.” And within like five minutes, I literally– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: My body did like the jump thing where I was like, “Holy shit!” 

Christine: [gasps] Oh my god. 

Em: And then because it’s theater and they have like literal sound and lights, everything– they were like making the sounds like just like scream at you and like the lights would freak– Like you, you– Everyone just walked out like with their adrenaline spiked for sure. 

Christine: Oh my god, how fun. 

Em: And there was– I’ll tell you o-off-camera, but, um– or unless you’re gonna go see it. I don’t wanna spoil it for you either. But there wa– there was one scene that if you ever do see it, we have to talk about it because it was– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –for sure so– Like in that moment, I literally grabbed the person next to me. I was like, “Holy fuck.” Like– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I was like, “That’s so scary.” It– Like they– 

Christine: [pretends to scream] Ahh! 

Em: –did such a good job with it. Um– 

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah, I’m looking at our theater. We’re probably gonna get it late. Like I feel like LA– 

Em: I think it just opened. 

Christine: –if LA has it now, we’ll probably get it like in a year. But, um– 

Em: I think it just opened. 

Christine: –when it comes out, I’m for sure gonna see it. ’Cause we have a pretty big theater scene here, but we usually get things a little later. 

Em: And it was like a four person show. I– So like it was very– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: ’Cause the, the cool thing about it, too, set-wise is that it– I’ve never seen a, a play where it– the stage was two floors, and so you could see– 

Christine: Mm! 

Em: It was as if someone cut like a, a Barbie DreamHouse in half– 

Christine: Like a house. Yeah, that’s cool. 

Em: –and so you could see the top floor and the bottom floor at the same time. So while you– they’re downstairs, things are happening upstairs and– 

Christine: Agh! 

Em: Oh my god, it was so good. So, um– 

Christine: Ooh, I love it. 

Em: –I drink because I, I treated myself to that last minute, and it was like super worth it, so. 

Christine: Ahh! I want to go see that. Yeah, that’s– Honestly, every time I go see a good play– which is like most plays I go see; they usually end up being good. But whenever I go see a play, I’m like, “Damn, I got to see more plays.” And then I never commit to that, but I want to actually make that a thing, you know. 

Em: I, I usually, uh, am strictly musicals. I really– I was just explaining this yesterday where if I am invited to a play, I will ask first what it’s about before I say yes. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But if it’s a musical, I usually never ask a single question. So– 

Christine: Yeah, you’re like, “I’m in,” yeah. 

Em: –I’m hesitant about plays. But this one was– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –for sure worth it. 

Christine: For those interested, Paranormal Activity is currently in Chicago, LA, DC, and San Francisco. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: So um, we– 

Em: Short, short run. [chuckles] But– 

Christine: Yeah, seriously. I mean, hopefully that means it’ll get more, uh, more play. 

Em: Yeah, I– it– 

Christine: –elsewhere. 

Em: –it will. There’s no– With the– And my reaction was like a matinee, like a random– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Like I can’t imagine like on a Friday night when people are like– 

Christine: Oh, yeah, have a couple cocktails, go on a date. 

Em: It was– 

Christine: Oh my gosh! 

Em: Like I was grabbing strangers. Th– 

Christine: [pretending to scream] Ahh! 

Em: And, and I don’t– I would not usually do that. I’m not– So– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: [chuckles] But– 

Christine: Yeah, I would, I would hope not. Yeah. 

Em: You could hear the couple beh– next to me going like, “Oh, fuck!” Like, “What are you gonna do?” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: It was very good. It was very good, so. 

Christine: I want to see that ’cause that movie scared the shit out of me like 15 years ago or whenever it came out. 

Em: It was, um, a very good reason to drink, so. 

Christine: Wow. I love it. 

Em: Yeah. Um– 

Christine: Good one. Good one. 

Em: That’s why I drink. What, what’s going o–? What’s going on? What’s, what’s– What happens next? I tell a story? [laughs] 

Christine: I think it’s– You know, I must go back to the drawing board and see, and see what the blueprints say. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: But I think next you tell me a tale. 

Em: Okay. [laughs] 

[glass clinks - start of ad break] 

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[straw sucking bottom of glass - end of ad break] 

Em’s Story – Jane Addams Hull-House 

Em: Hang on, let me do a little stir of my lavender. 

[Em stirs their drink, making the slushy ice crunch.] 

Em: In case this does anything for anyone. [holds up their tea in a plastic to-go cup, swishing it around.] 

Christine: Makes me thirsty. 

Em: Which is a nice reminder to drink some water– 

Christine: We haven’t done that in a while. 

Em: –little ratties. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, y– I’m very jealous of you that you– Well, I know you’re gonna say I shouldn’t be, but I’m very jealous of you that you have a dog that has to get groomed because then you get like a before and after moment o– Like you get to do fashion show at lunch with him. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Well, the only reason– Like I don’t– It’s a pain in the ass, and I’m usually really bad at keeping up with it. Um, but if I don’t, he gets really itchy skin– Like he just gets itchy and matted– 

Em: Puppy. 

Christine: –and it’s like ends up having to be– But yeah, don’t be jealou– It’s a lot. It’s, it’s kind of a pain in the ass. [laughs] 

Em: I would imagine it’s like it– Moneywise, it’s not fun. Like I do like that I– 

Christine: It's not cheap either, you know. 

Em: I like that I save money because he doesn’t– 

Christine: Yeah, it’s pretty expensive. I’ll be honest. I mean, and like we– You know, I’m happy to support local groomers, all that, of course. And it really does save a lot of trouble with like his a– his skin and stuff, but, um– 

Em: Well, I’m also jealous of you because your dog doesn’t shed and everywhere I go– 

Christine: That’s good. 

Em: –I’m just riddled with fucking hair now. 

Christine: That’s the best part. 

Em: And he’s tricolor, so no clothes are safe. No clothes are safe. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s where you should be jealous ’cause that part is a game-changer that I didn’t even realize ’til I was a little older, and I went, “Oh, fuck.” Um– 

Em: Yeah. I’ve just had to learn to live in like– 

Christine: Hair, yeah. 

Em: –in disgust. Yeah. Um– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: You know, genius marketing. Um, I don’t even know about marketing. Just genius business idea. Uh, at our dog park, a portable groomer always parks out front. 

Christine: Oh, smart. Smart. 

Em: And, and you can always tell when someone has used the groomer because all of a sudden their dog comes in a little too clean. And I’m like, [chuckles] “Oh!” 

Christine: You’re like, “Uh, straight to the mud.” [chuckles] 

Em: Yeah. I was like,”Th– You should have done this on your way out. But whatever.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, okay. I, I do have a story for you. I’m not just [sighs] trying to hold off on that. Okay. It’s a story from [in Chicago accent] Chicago [pronounced “shi-ca-go”]. 

Christine: Chicago [pronounced “shi-ca-go”]. 

Em: And– Oh my god, I think I heard my very first true Minnesota accent recently. 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: And by recently, I mean yesterday. Um, ’cause I’ve heard people that like have a little twang of it, but I met someone who was like– I think was Minnesota personified. 

Christine: A mid-westerner. 

Em: I didn’t, I didn’t know what the hell was going on. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: He was talking to me, and I was like, “ [chuckles] Where are you from, buddy?” 

Christine: “What are you saying?” [laughs] 

Em: I was like, “What is going–“ I, I– Honestly, I thought– I’m so sorry. I thought he was like sp– Like I thought English like was maybe his second language ’cause he– It was such a different accent than what I’d ever heard. I was like, “Oh–“ 

Christine: You never heard it before? Like a Minnesota accent? 

Em: Not that deep. It was like– 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: And I– I’m wondering if it was maybe like mixed with like a d– like a different accent. I don’t know what it was. But then he was like, “Oh, I’m born and raised from Minnesota.” And I went, “What?” [laughs] I was like– 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, it’s intense. 

Em: “I didn’t see that coming.” I– 

Christine: Where did you meet this person? 

Em: At the dog park. I was like– 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: Our dogs love each other, and him and I f– 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: –were finally making small talk. Um, but I’ve always heard him talking like with another group of people, and I was like, “Where’s he from?” And then I just would never think about it. 

Christine: [laughs] Minnesota. 

Em: And th– But it was like– Usually I could pick those things out and like– I’m, I’m from the States. I can usually guess where people are from. But the way that he spoke, I was like, “This guy is from a whole other world. I can’t wait–“ 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: “–to learn about him when we eventually bump into each other.” And then– 

Christine: “Yeah, I have a lot of questions.” 

Em: –his friends left; my friends left, and it was just the two of us. I was like, “Okay, time to get it going. I can’t wait to hear like, you know, if– what he’s been up to in his life.” Uh, and he was like, “Oh, yeah–“ 

Christine: Drinking beer. 

Em: He was like– 

Christine: Eating cheese 

Em: –“I’m from Minnesota, and this is the first place I’ve ever gone–” [laughs] “–that is–“ 

Christine: Ever gone? 

Em: “–that isn’t Minnesota.” 

Christine: Did he– Does he live here? Or does he– 

Em: He like born and raised in Minnesota and recently moved here. And I was like– 

Christine: Oh, what a big– 

Em: –“What?” 

Christine: –fucking jump, man. 

Em: So anyway, I have to relearn accents. I gotta f– I gotta– I don’t know what was– 

Christine: Seriously, you’ve been in that bubble too long. 

Em: It blew my mind. I was like I– I was– It was refreshing to be like, “Oh, wow. I’ve never really officially heard this, I guess.” 

Christine: Huh. 

Em: Um, anyway, Minnesota, shout-out. Your accent is cool and crazy. And I thought for sure I knew what was going on over there, but I don’t. 

Christine: [chuckles] And Em thought it was a foreign language for a minute. [laughs] 

Em: I was like– And I couldn’t’ve– I couldn’t place the, the– like it could have been– it might as well have been just a different city in the US. I didn’t– I couldn’t have guessed the country either, but I was like, “He’s certainly not from here.” Like I– 

Christine: Fascinating. 

Em: –by “here”, LA. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, but yeah, blew my mind. I was like, “Wow, I’m humbled. I guess I don’t know as much as I thought I did about accents.” Um– 

Christine: Interesting. Interesting. 

Em: So shout-out to Minnesota Man. Already forgot your name. So sorry. Um– 

Christine: Oh, wow. You were that, you were that blown away. 

Em: [laughs] I do know his dog’s name. Um, so, shout-out to her– 

Christine: That’s, that’s more important. 

Em: –little goldendoodle. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Okay. This is from Chicago, not Minnesota. Don’t know why I– Anyway, this is the Hull House. 

Christine: The Hull House? That sounds familiar, but I think maybe not. 

Em: Thank you. I thought it sounded familiar too. 

Christine: [chuckles] It feels like something I would know about, but then like can’t put my finger on what, you know? 

Em: I honestly should have done some recon and seen if I covered it in one of our books. Um– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –because this does sound so familiar, but I’m wondering if I just saw it on so many listicles and kept putting it off. 

Christine: Right. And it also sounds like Hill House. 

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, but I did look it up. By the way, fun fact again, if you did not know, we have an episodes tab on our website where you can search any topic and see if we’ve covered it. 

Christine: And we search it regularly to make sure. [laughs] 

Em: And [chuckles] that’s what happened last night for me. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: Um, have not covered it before on the podcast, so here we go. Um. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: This is, uh, Chicago in 1856, the Hull House was built, although it was called the Hull Mansion at the time– 

Christine: Ah. 

Em: –so be respectful about that. 

Christine: Yeah, seriously. What the fuck? 

Em: Um, Hull Mansion– [laughs] Thank you for playing along. 

Christine: I mean, like, why would you d-downvote– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, not downvote. What am I doing? Like on Reddit? Um, why would you like demote them from– I guess it’s ’cause like the definition of a mansion changes? I don’t know. Now we have like McMansions. I don’t know. 

Em: I guess so. Although– I think I’ve told you this before. Do you know the difference between a mansion and a house? 

Christine: I mean, it’s like the square footage, right? 

Em: It’s– It has to be 5,000 square feet– 

Christine: Yeah, five– Yeah. 

Em: –and have five, five bedrooms. 

Christine: Okay. So that’s a mansion. Yeah, so maybe back then there was just different– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –qualifications. 

Em: Well, there is an answer to why it is changed from mansion to house, but– 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: Um, but I loved that you were so ready to fucking fight for her honor. [chuckles] 

Christine: Wow, I got– I don’t know why. I mean, who cares? But I was like– Although, I feel like Hill House– I can– Or Hull House, I can see why– Like it has that– 

Em: Yeah, I would too. For the alliteration, I’d be like– 

Christine: –alliteration going. 

Em: –“I think we’re back to ‘house’ actually.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Um, what would your name– What would your house’s name be if you’re going with Schiefer or Lamp–? Wait, what– Blaise’s last name? My– 

Christine: We call, we call– Well, I used to say, [chuckles] you know, like Lemp Mansion, I would call it Lamp Mansion. Um– 

Em: I think that’s hysterical. You should bring that back. 

Christine: But like nobody gets it, so then it sounds like I’m calling my hou– Gio! [shifts the camera as she leans down to greet Gio] Come here. Okay. You want to show everybody your haircut? 

Em: Oh, he’s going to look so handsome. Where, where’s my mimis? 

Christine: Oh, you smell good now. 

[Christine turns the camera as Gio gets up on the couch next to Christine. His dark brown and tan fur is shiny and sleek.] 

Em: [gasps] Beautiful. 

Christine: Wow. Look at that. 

Em: Handsome. Oh, wow. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Oh, and you can– 

Christine: There we go. 

Em: You can see like how fluffy he is. Like ev– 

Christine: And he’s so– smells so good, which is– Ooh, wow. You are extra floofy today. 

[Christine pets Gio’s head, back and the fluffy scruff around his ears.] 

Em: Oh, I’m so jealous of your hand. 

Christine: Oh, yes. 

Em: I’m so jealous. 

Christine: Oh, yes. 

[Gio lays down, curling over to give himself a bath.] 

Em: Oh, is he gonna lick his weenie? 

Christine: Yep. [laughs] 

[Christine coaxes Gio to sit up, leaning him against her side.] 

Em: [chuckles] Okay. 

Christine: Anyway, thanks for, thanks for showing up. This has been fun. 

Em: He said, “It’s not clean enough.” 

Christine: [laughs] He– “Back to my ways. I’m not classy gent.” 

Em: Aw, puppy. 

[Gio moves from Christine’s side, jumping off the couch.] 

Christine: Um, okay. Bye. He just wanted to come in and show me. And now he’s– 

Em: I’m so jealous of you. 

Christine: –leaving again. Oh, wow. His tail. Let me see if you can see it before he escapes. 

[Christine turns the camera around to where Gio is standing in the middle of the room. His fluffy tail is trimmed nearly, and with his tail up, the fur hangs straight down.] 

Em: [gasps] Show us the– Oh my gosh. It’s like someone’s wig went missing. [laughs] 

[As Gio walks away, Christine turns the camera back around and resets it to face her.] 

Christine: [laughs] It literally looks like somebody just cut straight bangs like on a wig all– like a bowl cut. 

Em: That’s very funny. Um– 

Christine: Sorry you saw like trash and like my medicine in the background, but oh, well. 

Em: No, no one was looking at that. We were looking– 

Christine: [laughs] Okay, good, good, good. 

Em: –at his Karen bob of a haircut on his tail. 

Christine: Is– Th-that’s what it is. It’s like a Karen cut, yeah– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –on his tail, which is absurd. 

Em: There has been, um, discourse on TikTok about renaming it “the fuckass bob.” Um, and so– 

Christine: [laughs] That’s good too, yeah. 

Em: –I think Gio just has a fuckass bob on his tushy. 

Christine: I mean, honestly, I think he would agree with that. Yeah. 

Em: Um, thank you for showing us. I really needed that. That was wonderful. 

Christine: Oh, I did too. That kind of warmed my heart a little bit because he’s been real gnarly lately, and he’s been late for his haircut, so– 

Em: Precious. 

Christine: –it was needed. 

Em: And he does smell good. That’s great. Congratulations. 

Christine: He smells good, which is a rarity, you know. Yeah. 

Em: I, I literally– [mumbling] I don’t know th– I don’t know how people feel about this. I literally spray a little spritz of cologne on Hank ’cause I’m like, it just– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: It’s just got to be better. [chuckles] 

Christine: What if you– What if we got cancelled because you spritzed cologne on your dog? 

Em: I never know if it’s like– 

Christine: Now, that would be– We’d never have seen that coming. That would have been the most [chuckles] outrageous, uh– 

Em: Well, I just– Everyone’s got an opinion on what you should and shouldn’t do with your dog, but I mean, he seems fine. 

Christine: [chuckles] I think that one is pretty okay unless you’re like– [laughs] 

Em: I don’t know. I’m still new to this. I’m scared all the time. Um, but no, I– He smells like Jake Hollister, which, by the way, is a– 

Christine: [laughs] Oh, nice! 

Em: – retired de-defunct, uh, smell these days. So he actually is– 

Christine: You w– You would find like the most like basic but also hard-to-get, like exclusive situation. 

Em: I, I tried to get more because it was my signature scent in high school and college. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: And I still love it. I don’t fucking care. It smells great. And so I tried to look it up, but now it’s literally as expensive as an expensive type of cologne because it– 

Christine: Yes, right. So is it like on eBay and shit? Or where would you f– 

Em: You can only get it on eBay– 

Christine: Oh my– 

Em: –for like $200. 

Christine: –god. 

Em: So I’m like basically going through the last bottle from like grad school at this point, and I’m just like spraying it on my dog. [laughs] 

Christine: You and Hank. [laughs] 

Em: He smells like old money now, yeah. 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: That old mall money. 

Em: Old, you know– 

Christine: Hollister. 

Em: In your Mall World, can you actually pick me up some Jake Hollister [chuckles] ’cause I bet it’s cheaper there. 

Christine: I mean, honestly, I’ll check. Yeah. I mean, I can usually never make it like to one side of the mall from the other. That’s usually part of the whole situation. But once I do, I will. 

Em: Thank you. I got a feeling the Hollister’s where the backrooms to Mall World are. 

Christine: Oh my god. Honestly– Well, you know how dark it is in there. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like that’s probably part of the whole deal. Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: It’s just like a– like the backrooms, for sure. 

Em: Um, anyway, here we go. So– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Oh, you were saying the Lamp Mansion. I do think you should bring that back. 

Christine: Oh! Oh, so I thought that was funny, but then it’s sort of like if people don’t know what that is and they see our Wi-Fi, they’re like, “What the fuck?” you know. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Because it’s like it’s not a mansio– I don’t live in a mansion by any def– stretch of the word. So it’s like it feels like a little bit like I have to explain it, and then that’s silly. Um– 

Em: Well, you know what we call ours. No? 

Christine: Yeah. What is it again? [chuckles] Remind me. 

Em: The, the Schulzforth Manor, and we don’t– 

Christine: Okay. And s– But some– 

Em: –live in a manor. 

Christine: But manor sounds like you, you– It’s like a fun– like it’s a– 

Em: Yeah, but– 

Christine: –it’s a cute, quirky word, whereas like mansion feels like– 

Em: H-holier than thou or something? 

Christine: –something you would actually write in like a description of a Zillow house or something if it were a– You know what I mean? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like it feels– 

Em: I guess, but the, the definition of a manor is like the, the house– the main house people live in on an estate next to many other houses they also own. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: So– [laughs] 

Christine: But manor feels like, “Oh, we’re like kind of just like being silly.” Like not– we’re being, we’re being like– 

Em: Goofy about it. 

Christine: –goofy about it– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –in like a fun way. I feel like manor has more like playful tone to it– 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: –and mansion just feels like, “Why the fuck a–“ [laughs] “You don’t live in a mansion.” You know? 

Em: Sure. I would have just done Schulzforth Cottage, but we already agreed to manor like three years ago. So now it feels– 

Christine: I do like manor a lot. 

Em: –really stupid because we don't– 

Christine: See, that– that’s– Well, it’s you guys got– did that, and I thought that was really the way to go. I was like, “That’s clever and fun,” but our name doesn’t quite– like Lampschiefer– Lampag– It just doesn’t work. I don’t know. So if anyone has any ideas, let me know. Right now, we call it Gio’s Haus with a– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: But we, we spell it H-A-U-S ’cause it’s like the German spelling– 

Em: That’s beautiful. 

Christine: –so it’s Gio’s Haus. 

Em: I love that. 

Christine: And that, that pretty much fits the bill, you know. Especially with that bob– that fuckass bob he’s got going now. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: He like really runs the manor, if you know what I mean. 

Em: He really does. Yeah. No, I understand. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Well, so when it first came out, it was the Hull Mansion, um, in 1856 in Chicago, and it was built for Charles Hull because– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –every single building has to have your name involved in it, as I say with– inside the Schulzforth Manor. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, right. Like how ridiculous. [chuckles] 

Em: Uh, well, while he was here– He was only here for, I guess, like a few years, and then they ended up– and moving away or he died or something like that. But they were here for a very short amount of time. While they did live here, his wife died in the house. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: So that’s ghost number one. And when Charles eventually died, the house was then, um, handed over to his niece who used it as tenement housing for the wave of immigrants coming through at the time. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And they were immigrants of all sorts, um, Minnesota, everything, so– [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] I was about to say it. You stole the words out of my mouth. 

Em: But it was. It was a lot of immigrants, and in this neighborhood, it was– it happened to be, um, particularly poverty-stricken immigrants. Um– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and so they needed a lot of resources that they just didn’t have at the time, and it was– I think I saw one source say that, um, it was like seven families per unit were living together. 

Christine: Oh my lord. Okay. 

Em: It was just super overcrowded. And also there was a lot of, um, dangerous working conditions for them, and, um, anyway– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –it was not a good time. They were, they were coming here for a better life, but the better life hadn’t maybe happened yet. So– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: –uh, and then another source said that in between it becoming the Hull Mansion and then being tenement housing, there was talk that maybe it was also a nursing home for a period of time– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –which if that’s the case, then that’s also a lot more deaths that– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: –for some reason aren’t– 

Christine: Close to the veil. 

Em: –aren’t recorded. Um, so eventually– Okay, so his niece turns it into tenement housing and later on ends up donating it or selling it to, um, a woman named Jane Addams. So this building is also often called the Jane Addams Hull-House. 

Christine: Ooh, okay. 

Em: Um, so it was the Hulls’, then it became tenement housing, and the niece who was in charge of that handed it off to James– Jane Addams. Let me tell you about Jane Addams. We fucking love her. Um– 

Christine: I knew it. I felt it when you said her name. 

Em: And you know why? It’s because Jane is like one of the best names in the world. 

Christine: It is a great name. 

Em: Every time I see Jane, I think I gotta add that to my like baby list. 

Christine: It’s a good name, yeah. 

Em: It’s a great name. Um, and also I was in love with Jane in Tarzan. It’s a, it’s a– Jane’s a big name over here. 

Christine: You have a history, yeah. 

Em: Yeah, we go back. 

Christine: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. 

Em: We go back, and she knows that. Um– 

Christine: Or does she? That’s part of the charm. 

Em: [chuckles] That’s the mystery. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: So Jane Addams, she’s a huge social, social reformer for her time. Um, and I wouldn’t even just say for her time. She should be remembered as a massive social reformer. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: She helped establish, um, the country’s juvenile court system. That was one thing she did. 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: She fought for factory labor rights, especially during this time when there was a lot of– I mean, like I was reading stories about how, um, the work conditi-conditions were so bad people were just getting maimed and dismembered and like– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –were expected to just go back to work the next day. 

Christine: Right, there’s nothing to do about it. Right. 

Em: And forget child labor laws. I mean, so– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –um, kids were working as young as five, I think, at the time. Anyway, so she established the country’s juvenile court system. She fought for factory labor rights. She fought for better sanitation laws in the city. She fought for access to more schools in the city for children. Um, and then I’m just gonna rattle off a couple of her titles. She was a founding member of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom. She was a founding member of the National Child Labor Committee. She was the f– uh, one of the founding members for the NAACP. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: She was a– the president of the National Conference of Charities and Corrections. She was an officer in the National American Women’s Suffrage Association. She was a leader of the Women’s Peace Party, and she was the president of the International Congress of Women, and the first woman ever to receive a Nobel Peace Prize. 

Christine: Jesus Christ. I mean, you think like we– we’re living in such a backwards state right now, but like– state of the world, I mean, but like how far we’ve come, dude. Like suffra– She’s like, “Okay, let’s get started by trying to get five-year-olds off the workforce and fucking get the vote.” 

Em: [chuckles] I know. 

Christine: I mean, for half the population– It’s just wild. That’s wild just to think like how much was on this woman’s plate. [chuckles] I mean, Jesus Christ. 

Em: She was a busy girl. And also, thank god, um, that she’s not here right now because she’d be like, “What is happening?” 

Christine: She’d be like, [pretending to yell] “What’d I do this for?” Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] She’d be like, “I gotta get back to work, actually.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, hang on. [Em looks off-camera as Hank comes into the room.] Okay. I was wondering if he was gonna tell me he has to go to the bathroom. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: He– 

Christine: I don’t know why you said th– when you said, “Tell me,” I was like, “Tell you what? Tell you a joke?” 

Em: [laughs] Did I say, “Tell me?” 

Christine: [laughs] “Tell you about–“ Yeah, you said, “if he’s going to tell me he has to use the bathroom.” 

Em: Oh. No, ’cause he– I– The bells on the door. 

Christine: Yeah, I know. But in my head, I was like, “Tell you a– like about his dream?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t know. I was like, “Tell you what?” okay. 

Em: I, I have been saying a lot of “use your words.” Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: That’s what it kind of sounded like. 

Em: Uh, his– By the way, when he uses his words, it sounds like this [makes whining/groaning dog noise]. 

Christine: [makes whining/groaning dog noise] 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: I love dog words. That’s so cute. 

Em: So Jane, uh, moves into the building. Um, I’m going to just say they were friends. There’s no information otherwise. My– 

Christine: Love this lore. 

Em: My heart tells me maybe not just friends, but– 

Christine: Interesting. 

Em: But who’s to say? Her name was Ellen Gates Starr, who has her own list of insane accolades. Um– 

Christine: Right? But like who would also marry Jane? Like which kind of self-respecting man– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –at that time would marry her? So it’s sort of like– You could see both ways. Like I could see this being like she’s also queer, but maybe it’s just like [chuckles] she’s like, “There’s no hope for me to actually get married.” 

Em: Right, right. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: Um, and it– I did see on a few sources it called Ellen her “partner,” but I think it probably just meant business partner. 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: And I can just only hope. So– 

Christine: Yeah. I mean, we can hope, for sure. 

Em: Two bad bitches at the same damn time. It’s, uh, Jane and Ellen. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: That’s the only names you gotta remember. 

Christine: Cute. 

Em: So– 

Christine: Friend with– friends with Ellen. [laughs] 

Em: Friends with Ellen. [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: Friends with– friends with Dorothy. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Friends with Ellen. 

Em: Uh, that, that’s how I’m going to look at things, but– 

Christine: Love it. 

Em: –whatever. So they move into this house, and as you can tell by their list of accomplishments, they were clearly here to do some good. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So they open what they called the Hull House because, although it was the Hull Mansion, it was now a settlement house. So I think they just renamed it the Hull House. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And so a settlement house was essentially a, a community center for all of the poverty-stricken immigrants that were desperate for resources in the area and couldn’t get to them. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, and I think, if it was not the first, it was one of the first of its kind in the United States to have like basically a resource center for immigrants or people, people in general who needed it. Didn’t have to be immigrants. 

Christine: Right, 

Em: She offered as many resources here as she possibly could. Like I’m just going to list for you some of the things that she was able to offer at the Hull House for anyone in need. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, and this was, this was– had not been done before also. So how she was able to– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –whatever, whatever her connections are, it’s insane. 

Christine: She’s an old soul, man. Okay. 

Em: She was able to make the Hull House a woman’s shelter for, uh, battered women. Uh, and I think she also a– was able to, uh, offer them midwives if they were pregnant. 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: Sh– It was a homeless shelter. It was a daycare. It was a public bath house for people who needed showers. 

Christine: Jeez. 

Em: It was an English secondary language school. She held citizenship classes here and job training. She hosted, uh, legal, employment, and social service aids for people. She offered public health programs. She offered meeting spaces for unions. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: And it also offered a, um, (this is from multiple quotes; I kind of just slammed them all together) a gym, a theater, an art gallery, a music school, a drama group, a boys’ club, an auditorium, a public kitchen and cafeteria, a coffee house, a swimming pool, a book bindery, residence for working women (so they had to make a deal where if they were working, they could stay here and be housed), um, kindergart– had– They had a kindergarten; they had a nursery; they had libraries, a post office, meeting and club rooms, art studios, and apartments for the residential staff. 

Christine: Not– Like again, this is why I was so defensive. That’s a fucking mansion if it ever deserved a name, you know? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like fuck off with “House”. That’s insan– that’s insane. And like it’s hard enough to fund the arts in 2025. Like they’re getting chopped first, right? Like she’s like, “Oh, we have a gallery here just to like stimulate, you know, the art.” 

Em: And– 

Christine: “Like we’re in survival mode–“ 

Em: I love that y– 

Christine: “–and all of you are in survival mode, but that’s we’re gonna also focus on like enriching your spirit,” you know. What the fuck? 

Em: Speaking of spirits, you know whose you just really, uh, gave pat on the back to? Because Ellen was in charge of the art gallery. 

Christine: I knew i– Like there’s– Yeah, that’s beautiful. It– God bless these people, man. 

Em: And also like this is a reminder that, in 2025, we can’t offer public health care or daycare or food– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –or books or anything to people– 

Christine: Or we don’t, I guess. 

Em: We don’t. We could. We just don’t. There’s Hank. Hang on. 

Christine: He’s going to tell you something else. 

Em: No, it’s slurp-slurp-slurp. 

Christine: Oh, I see. 

Em: But I just– I, I– My brain stops working– 

Christine: I get it, yeah. 

Em: –when I hear a dog slobbering everywhere. [chuckles] 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I love him very much, but it’s– I can’t– 

Christine: No. 

Em: I was trying to do my notes last night and that was when he decided to like clean his armpit out– 

Christine: Oh! I can’t with it. 

Em: –and it was the craziest sound. 

Christine: Gio does this like chewing sound, and I’m like, “I’m gonna scream.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “I’m gonna start screaming.” 

Em: So this is more for me than anyone else. I just need to like hang out for a second. 

Christine: I get it. 

Em: Also, when he drinks water, he drinks the whole fucking bowl. So annoying. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: I know. I had to teach him “water,” so he’ll actually drink. He like doesn’t remember to. 

Christine: Oh no! 

Em: It’s very scary. I don’t think he realizes how important it is. 

Christine: I love how our dogs have like no survival instincts. [laughs] 

Em: Not one. Not one. He would run to the coyotes if he could. 

Christine: He’s like, “Friends!” [laughs] 

Em: But yeah, we could. We could offer all those things, and we just don’t. It’s crazy. But and– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And also that a woman who barely had any rights was capable– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –of putting it all together. 

Christine: But like think about the fact that there are people like that today. Like she’s probably reincarnated into someone doing the exact same thing today– 

Em: Gotta be. 

Christine: –that doesn’t get any recognition getting– You know, like we don’t even know that they’re doing this. 

Em: Mhm. 

Christine: That’s just– It’s d– People like this do exist, and that, that’s why I feel like Mr. Rogers is always like, “Find those people.” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: No, really. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: He would say like, “Find the helpers,” and I feel like that’s the person. Like in every age, there are some, and they’re–They don’t often don’t get recognition, so that’s fascinating. 

Em: I’m so glad that she at least got like– I mean, the first woman to get a Nobel Peace Prize. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s– 

Em: It’s like I can’t imagine a person more deserving. 

Christine: –incredible. Yeah, that’s incredible. 

Em: So through all of these resources, she was able to conjure up. Um, the Hull House helped around 2,000 people every week– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –and by 1920– It’s not like this was a chain, and they opened up in other locations, but the Hull House and their mission inspired other settlement houses. Um, and by 1920, there were 500 across the country. 

Christine: Wow. See, that’s incredible. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: That’s incredible. 

Em: So a lot of the original Hull House has since been demolished, but what’s left are historical landmarks. Um– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –the rest of it has joined, um, a college campus. So– Anyway, so Jane Addams worked here until 1935 when she passed. And that’s kind of just the history of Jane Addams in the house, but we’re going to time travel to 1913, right in the middle of her time here. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: One day, Jane is working at the Hull House, and she answers the door to three Italian women– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and they are demanding incessantly to see “The Devil Baby.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And apparently, they had heard that there is a demon baby that was born here– or that was born and then brought to the Hull House because their father had cursed them after mocking the devil. And after mocking the devil, the baby was born a monster. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Jane was like, “Mm, nothing like that here. Um, so I don’t know where you heard that, but, uh, that’s–“ 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: “We’re good. If you could leave.” Um, but no matter what she said to them, they were insistent that she was hiding a Devil Baby from them. 

Christine: Oh god. Okay. 

Em: Um, she– And to this day, really nobody knows where this rumor came from, but someone had just said it. And I will even say so many people were coming in here that needed help in certain ways. There might have been someone with just like physical differences– 

Christine: Right, yeah. 

Em: –and all of a sudden, like “there’s a monster that lives here,” you know. 

Christine: Or you just hear people who are, um, underserved who are, who are giving birth there and like single– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –you know, sex workers, whatever. It’s like I’m sure there would be some sort of– 

Em: Or– Yeah. 

Christine: –c– Yeah. 

Em: Or with so many immigrants coming in,I’m sure there was some sort of stereotype, and someone said something, and then through the grapevine, it became like a– you know, “something I don’t agree with lives there” or whatever. Anyway, we don’t know where it really started, and Jane tried to get to the bottom of it. She was like, “Where the fuck did you hear this?” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: “’Cause like I’m busy. I’m juggling a lot right now. Um, I don’t know about your demon baby.” 

Christine: “I’m due at the Supreme Court in ten minutes.” [chuckles] 

Em: It’s like, “I’m trying to give you human rights. Can you leave me alone?” [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah, literally. [chuckles] 

Em: Um, so she’s not sure, but they– basically, wherever this group of girls heard it from, everyone in their neighborhood had heard about it too. And– 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: –Jane seemingly overnight was inundated with people from all over wanting to see the Devil Baby. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: This was just the first round of people knocking on the door. 

Christine: I wonder if her saying like, “Nope, nothing to see here,” got everybody like all– You know, maybe those women went and said like, “She won’t let us see the baby,” and then everyone got into a fervor. 

Em: Yeah. It eventually turned into Jane– Because in her– in the goodness of her heart would take anyone in, including a Devil Baby– 

Christine: Hm. 

Em: –that she must be hiding this baby from everybody. And so– 

Christine: Okay, 

Em: –every time she would double down and say, “Nothing is here,” they’d be like, “Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,” 

Christine: “Yeah, we’ve heard that before.” 

Em: Um, so at first when I say people from all over wanted to see this Devil Baby, it was people from different blocks. Then it was people from different neighborhoods, then people from different boroughs or, you know, whatever the Chicago version is. 

Christine: [sighs] Oh boy. 

Em: Then all over the country. I mean, the rumors spread so fucking fast that within six weeks– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –people were coming in from other states by the busload. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Thousands of people were calling in. The police had to like work around traffic issues. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: People were lining up out front. They were camping out like just for a chance to see it through the window, offering to pay her all sorts of money just for a peek at this deev– Devil Baby. 

Christine: What? 

Em: Um, it was nuts. And so the story of the Devil Baby had multiple versions by the time thousands and thousands of people are coming to see it. The main two were– One was from Italian communities, and one was from Jewish communities. And so the Italian version– And of course there were many offshoots of this, but the main Italian version is that there was this pregnant Catholic woman, and she married an atheist, of course. 

Christine: Mm– Oh no! [laughs] 

Em: So that’s problem number one. Um, apparently while she was pregnant and they were setting up the house, she put up a portrait of the Virgin Mary in their house, and he ripped it off the wall, and he said he’d rather see the Devil in the house than a picture of the Virgin Mary. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And so by doing that, when the baby was born, he came as the Devil. Um– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: –and some stories even went on to say that they tried to baptize the baby and it didn’t work. One story I particularly enjoyed for the fear factor of it all was, uh, [chuckles] that they tried to baptize the baby, and when they looked in– like the bab– When they looked under the cloth to see the baby after it was baptized, the baby was missing, and then they found him running around on the pews at the back of the church. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, that got me, that got me going in the middle of the night. 

Christine: I just picture the– like the little Hot Stuff Devil, you know. 

Em: Yes, that’s what I’m thinking. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: That’s totally what I’m thinking. Um, the Jewish version (again, many offshoots) is that there was this pregnant mom. She already had thr– six girls. She already had six girls. She was pregnant again with her seventh, and the husband was like, “I would rather have the Devil come in here than have another daughter.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Either he’s horrible or those daughters were horrible. I don’t know which version it is, but– [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, could be. Yeah. 

Em: He’s a– He was like, “Please, I cannot stand it. Please don’t give me another daughter.” Yikes. 

Christine: The Devil’s like, “Don’t mind if I do.” 

Em: Yeah. So then the Devil– Well, I guess the– a son was born but as the Devil was the story. 

Christine: Right, okay. 

Em: Um, in either version, the baby is born with some or all of these features– It’s not like a metaphorical devil. It was the devil. So the baby was born with horns, hooves, a pointed tail, pointed ears, oily red skin, leather wings, and apparently could curse in multiple languages. 

Christine: Oh, that’s sick. 

Em: And in some cases, another favorite of these variations is that– [chuckles] I guess when the baby was born, the father was smoking a cigar, which wow. Um– 

Christine: Classy. 

Em: And the newborn reaches up, grabs the cigar out of the dad’s mouth, and starts smoking it himself. 

Christine: [laughs] I love this baby. 

Em: It literally does sound like Hot Stuff. 

Christine: Hot Stuff Devil. He does. He lights people’s cigars for them. 

Em: Yeah. And he has red oily skin, I assume. I don’t know about oily. 

Christine: The red oily skin is a wild descriptor. Really that– Talk about sensory discomfort, like eugh. 

Em: Oily is all you had for me. I– I’m– 

Christine: Red oily skin. No, no. 

Em: Well, so in both of these main versions, um, basically, he was horrific to look at, and they didn’t know what to do. When they would show him off by the street, people would scream. I don’t know why they’re showing him off if they’re that terrified of him. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And he’s cussing everyone out– 

Christine: Party trick. 

Em: –and smoking. 

Christine: I mean, that’s awesome. 

Em: Uh, but so they didn’t know what to do, and they were so ashamed of him that they brought him to the Hull House where Jane took him in and knows where he is and theoretically hid him in the attic from everybody. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and so it looked very suspicious again that Jane spent weeks denying he existed when every other day there was a new story about this Devil Baby existing. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: And, and like this woman is literally– I know I already said it, but she’s trying to save the nation. She’s trying– 

Christine: The planet, yeah. 

Em: She’s trying to– She’s trying to save the planet. And you’re just like, “Mm, obviously she’s in cahoots with the Devil.” Like, what the fuck? 

Christine: And it’s like, “Well, what’s suspicious? The fact that she hasn’t shown us the baby.” It’s like, “Ohh… 'kay, that is a losing argument.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like, she’s gonna show you the baby or she’s not. There’s no– 

Em: Let– 

Christine: I don’t know. There’s– 

Em: Let this be a, a moral that like you could literally try to save the planet and people will still find a way to literally demonize you. 

Christine: Oh, especially if you do. I think especially if you do try. 

Em: Yeah. There could have– Like I said earlier, there could have been a baby that just had something physical going on that was noticeable to others, and people literally demonized him and warped the story, and they– Back in the day, it was, I guess, commonplace that– 

Christine: That’s sad. 

Em: –you could be ashamed of a baby and want to just stuff it away in an attic– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: –and never see it again. So I, I guess maybe for the time it was more realistic of a theory. Um, but then you would just say, “Oh, well–“ And no one would even know because people would be so “ashamed,” quote, of the baby that this story wouldn’t have even come out that you gave birth to this baby, right? I don’t know. 

Christine: I mean, someone might have, like a midwife or a– You know what I mean? 

Em: Mm. On her lunch break gossiping. 

Christine: Or somebody who knows like that a family gave a baby away, and– I don’t know. I feel like these things would spread. 

Em: 100%. Anyway, Jane and the staff were adamant there was no Devil Baby. She actually even wrote a lengthy (but I did read it), a lengthy piece for, uh, one of the 1916 issues of The Atlantic. 

Christine: Mm, wow. 

Em: Um, and it even still says on the website– it says “by Jane Addams.” I’m like, “Oh! Girl.” 

Christine: That's cool. 

Em: Um, but so she, she wrote in on like her entire experience with it. And actually, this is like such a woman who is focused on like other people because she could have spent the entire piece saying like, “It wasn’t me. It wasn’t me. There is no Devil Baby, blah-blah-blah.” She spent most of the article talking about some of the horrific experiences of the people living in this tenement housing– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and all the immigrants and like what they came to the country to find and– 

Christine: So like humanizing them. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. And even going so far as, um– A lot of the article was her theorizing why these people so desperately needed to believe in the Devil Baby. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: So it’s like a think-piece– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –more than any sort of like defense or whatever. Yeah. 

Em: And she had every right to make it a defense if she wanted to, and instead she went, “Actually, I think it was really important culturally for these people to–“ 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: “–believe in this,” and– Like I mean, humanitarian at, at, uh– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –the end. Um, this is one quote, uh, from her. It’s a long one, but it’s worth it to me, um, hopefully to you. That– This was her experience when she first started getting corralled– or corralled…, uh, bombarded with people asking to, to see this thing. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Jane Addams: “No amount of denial convinced them that he was not there. Throughout six weeks as I was at the Hull House, I would hear a voice at the telephone, repeating for the hundredth time that day, ‘No, there is no such baby.’” And then another one. “‘Again, no, we never had that here.’ ‘No, he couldn’t have seen– No, you couldn’t have seen it for 50 cents. We’re not taking any money.’” 

Christine: Oh… 

Em: “‘We didn’t send it anywhere because we never had it.’ ‘I don’t mean to say that your sister-in-law lied, but–‘“ 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: “‘–that must be some mistake.’ ‘There is no point getting an excursion from Milwaukee for there isn’t any Devil Baby–‘“ 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “’–at the Hull House.’” 

Christine: Oh, so she’s funny too. 

Em: Yeah, she [chuckles], she’s like, “I’m not– Just stay away.” 

Christine: She’s, she’s edgy. I like her. 

Em: She then says, uh, “Although the visitors to the Devil Baby included people of every degree of prosperity and education, even physicians and trained nurses who assured us of their scientific interest only, the ch– story constantly demonstrated the power of an old wives’ tale and the reputed presence–“ 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: “–of the Devil Baby at Hull House did not reach the newspapers until the fifth of six weeks – after thousands of people had already in– been informed of his whereabouts by the old method of passing news from mouth to mouth.” So– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: She was like, “We didn’t even need the paper. The whole country knew about this.” 

Christine: It was too late, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: The journalists were behind. Wow. 

Em: And like I said, she mentions quite a lot in her piece that, um, of the people coming in droves, a lot of them were, um, older women, especially older immigrant women or older, uh, poorer women. And so she, she thinks a lot of it was they needed to believe in it because it gave them comfort in the powers that be and– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –to remind them that during all of these real struggles they’re dealing with as– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –an immigrant, where they thought that they were coming here to have a better life and a lot of ways their lives were not that great just yet, um, or maybe never– I don’t know. I don’t know their situations. But given their daily struggles that they were enduring at the time it was a reminder– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –for them to not feel like they had failed their families or failed their faith by coming here. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: So– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Interesting. 

Em: And it was also a pl– a way for them to like focus their anxieties on something external instead of worrying about– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –what was going on. 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: So I thought it was a really good article. Um, also fun fact, the Devil Baby was the inspiration for Rosemary’s Baby. 

Christine: Oh, I was gonna ask if there was any connection. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. So, um, anyway, after six weeks of this, the story slowly died down, but the lore still makes the Hull House one of the most notoriously spooky places in Chicago. So, um, there’s the Devil Baby, which is like the main reason people would go on like a tour here now– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –um, if they wanted something spooky. But as for ghosts, it’s actually said that Jane and Ellen were warned about ghosts before they even got the house, that it was already haunted. 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: And when they moved in, there were already tenement boarders living there. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And they said that, uh, they would regularly see things to a point where they would leave water out, uh, on the steps at night because they believed that spirits couldn’t cross water, and they just wanted to sleep. 

Christine: Oh my lord. So it’s active already. 

Em: Yeah. And Jane– [chuckles] 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Jane didn’t know she really believed in ghosts, and she was like, “Okay, well, that’s, that’s a silly story.” Ended up calling her own room “the haunted room”– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –at the, at the house. 

Christine: And she’s a smart lady we know, you know. She doesn’t take any bullshit so wow. 

Em: Yeah. She, um– It was also the room where the wife– the f– the original wife actually died, and so that would make sense why there was a ghost there. But, um, Jane would sleep in there, and she would wake up seeing Mrs. Hull watch her while she slept. And sometimes Mrs. Hull would be hovering over her bed. Other times Jane would hear conversations in there– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –when it was empty. Um, so she moved into another room and made that a guest room. Fuck you, guests. And, uh– 

Christine: Love it. Love it. Love it. Listen, she needs sleep. Okay? 

Em: [chuckles] She does. She’s busy. 

Christine: She’s got a lot to do tomorrow. 

Em: And the guests had similar situations. So to this day, people in certain rooms feel like– 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: –they’re being watched in there. People hear, um, a woman’s voice talking to them, or they’ll hear voices downstairs when they’re upstairs or vice versa– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and they can never find the voice. Um, people hear doors slamming, and, uh, they hear footsteps upstairs. People will say that they feel something bumped into them when no one was there or would brush past them. They’ll smell Jane’s lavender perfume. Uh, the staff have seen a woman walking around the house, so it’s thought to be either Jane or Mrs. Hull. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But Mrs. Hull is definitely a ghost here because, one, Jane also saw her; other people saw her when they lived there; and she was known as the, say it with me, Lady in White. 

Christine: Ah. 

Em: Because she wore white, and she was seen all the time walking around in the kitchen. Um, and people claim that there’s also another woman upstairs watching them below in Victorian garb. People say that that same woman will vanish if you end up running into her in the halls and you try talking to her. She’ll just go away, which I love. That’s a great ghost. 

Christine: I wish I had that superpower. Yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] Just vanish. 

Christine: Just like while someone talks to me, just whoop! 

Em: [chuckles] Never mind. Um– 

Christine: Yep. 

Em: There’s a– the ghost of a monk that is seen roaming around here. Um, there is, uh, a phantom– Hm. Chil– A phantom children laughter, if you will. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: And not only the, the giggling, which I, I usually don’t stand for, but I would take that over the rest of this. Apparently, they all– there’s also ghosts of kids running around, um, where you can hear little footsteps and laughter, but also people have seen children running around and often at unusual speed. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And they jump and climb on everything and dart around in weird ways. 

Christine: Yeesh. Oh no. Thank you. 

Em: There is also a courtyard, um, that is said to be the portal to all of these spirits, uh, by the way. But in the courtyard, there used to be this fountain where people would see kids playing by all the time, and there were never any kids. So they became known– 

Christine: Mm! 

Em: –as the “fountain kids,” these ghosts. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Um, and I don’t know if they’re the same ghosts that are moving with crazy speed, but– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: On top of the fact that there are ghost children around here, on a lot of like display cases– Because this is now a museum, um, a lot of display cases or windows will always have little handprints on them but with one extra digit, which– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –again is like, is that the devil or just someone with like extra stuff going on? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But of course, for the story, it makes it spooky, you know. 

Christine: Sure. Okay. I was just thinking those six-toed cats at Hemingway’s house. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I was like, “Oh, that’s cool.” 

Em: Well, the attic is where, of course, the Devil Baby was allegedly hidden, so that’s where people claim there’s the most activity. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: Um, here people have, uh, extreme temperature changes. The locked doors up there will unlock and open themselves. If you go into a room where the door is open, it will lock you in sometimes. People have heard scratching and rustling and scurrying on– 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: –on the other side of the attic door. One tour that was going through heard loud dragging and a crash in the room, and when they looked around, a chair had dragged itself out from under a desk and fell over by itself. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Imagine being on that tour. Imagine being the tour guide, and you’re like, “ [chuckles] I don’t know, man.” 

Christine: Like, “And now I have to open this fucking door? Uh-uh.” 

Em: “Anyway…” Yeah. Uh, the basement, apparently, is super menacing. People will see very tall, scary-looking shadows approaching them in a scary way. 

Christine: Mm… No. 

Em: People will see glowing eyes. They’ll hear dragging, and people have gotten shoved and scratched down there. Um, people have also seen books fly off the bookshelf by themselves. They’ve heard their name get called out. The security alarms will go off. People will hear rustling in the kitchen, which I like to think would just be me as a ghost. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Um, and the staff will get locked in and out of rooms all the time by doors that should not be locking. And finally, of course, people claim that they smell sulfur, hear a baby crying, and see an evil tiny face in the windows as if the Devil Baby is really there and has been all along. 

Christine: An evil ti– He’s just smoking a cigar. [laughs] 

Em: Just smoking a cigar. [laughs] Oh, yeah. It’s not even smoke like hell. It’s just his cigar. Yeah. 

Christine: Cigar smoke, yeah. 

Em: Okay. Sorry that was so long. But that is the Hull House. 

Christine: That was good. I was creeped out by some of that, man. Um– 

Em: I– And really– I’m sorry. I’m like– I hope that the Devil Baby– there was no even like real version of like a baby who’s now just being like– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: But, but I say that to say I really do just envision Hot Stuff in my head the whole time. 

Christine: Yes, I know with the little diaper. Like I mean, talk– It’s literally the Devil Baby. That’s– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: You, you– As soon as you said it, I went, “Well, that image is stuck there.” 

Christine: Yeah, that– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I was actually wearing that t-shirt earlier. I meant to wear it, and then I ended up changing. But, um– 

Em: Have you gotten your tattoo yet? I’m so tired of this. When is it happening? 

Christine: I’ll– Okay. Now, that’s a story for– Here’s the, the– I’ll tell you the TLDR. Um– 

Em: Well, we are– 

Christine: I got– 

Em: We’re about to go into intermission. Do you want to make that the intermission thing? Or no? 

Christine: I did really want to send you Mall World too though. Um– 

Em: Okay, okay. Right, right, right. 

Christine: But I’ll say it here, and then maybe I’ll remember to say it next– say, say more, or maybe it’s not worth saying more. I got scammed. Um– 

Em: [gasps] No! 

Christine: I got fully– Yeah. I’ve been meaning to tell this story for so long, and I just keep forgetting. 

Em: I did not see that coming. 

Christine: I got fully scammed. Um, it was quite an elaborate hoax. I went back through all the emails and went, “Wow, they really got me good.” [laughs] Um– 

Em: Did you already give them money? 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Uh– 

Em: Oh, Christine. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. It was, uh, it was a lesson. I was really humbled, and I– I’ve been wanting to share for a while because I’m like– As the true crime half of the show, like you’d think I’d be– And I usually have really good spidey senses about like phishing emails or, you know, anything like that. I feel like I’m pretty literate in that way. But, man, this– 

Em: No, anyone, anyone can get got. 

Christine: God! And they really– Like they knew ex– They were able to look through my Instagram and make it like really personal, you know. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And it was just like real, real– [sighs] real fucked up. Um– 

Em: What was you– What was your last message with them? Did you ever say like, “I’m being scammed”? Like what– 

Christine: I d– I at one point did. I ended up writing an email, like, um, “I’m submitting this information to the local police,” or whatever, and I submitted a police report, but obviously they just– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –didn’t respond. [chuckles] I mean, I don’t know what I wanted. I didn’t want to– 

Em: Oh, I’m sorry. Did that put a bad taste in your mouth– 

Christine: Oh, well. 

Em: –to like not get it now? 

Christine: No, I just have been like, “Okay, that was a big chunk of money I’d saved up for a tattoo, so I’m gonna not just like jump into another–“ you know. And I was like, “I’m just gonna–“ 

Em: And to defend you– 

Christine: “–let that one sit.” 

Em: –before people reach out at all for– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and, and are curious, you– d– you did give her money– or them money or whoever because there was already a date in mind to– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. We were all scheduled. 

Em: You were supposed to meet up that day, and then– 

Christine: It was like a whole thing. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I, I finally caught on because– And they were very like– They would like not ask for money for like weeks and send actual art. Like they were really fucking with me like to a very elaborate de-degree. 

Em: That’s so unnecessary. Why? 

Christine: And– Yeah, yeah. Um– 

Em: So when– Sorry, go ahead. Sorry. 

Christine: No, no, you’re good. I just, uh, ended up sending them– Like it was like a dow– like a half of the payment. It was like a half the tattoo deposit type thing. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And, um, it’s so weird ’cause like we had a Zoom meeting scheduled, and then I canceled the Zoom because I was like, “Oh, we’re traveling. Like I’m–“ And so it’s like what would have ha– Would they have canceled the Zoom at the last minute? Would they have ghosted me then? Like I don’t know what the– Like it felt so interpersonal that I was like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –totally blindsided. But I started to get a bad feeling, and then I ignored that bad feeling. And now I’ve gotten a lot more– Like anytime I feel even an inkling of like, “Huh.” I’m, I’m like, “Check this first.” Like, “Check this first.” 

Em: What was the thing that made you suspicious? Or when did it– when did it happen? 

Christine: Oh my god, it was embarrassing. Way too late. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: [chuckles] Because they– I mean, if you go back, it’s so embarrassing. If you go back and listen to that episode– Please don’t. But if you do, I understand, but it’s embarrassing ’cause I’m like, “Wow, it’s the craziest thing. The universe aligned,” you know. I mean, it’s really silly. 

Em: No, I– They, they knew exactly what you would– 

Christine: They knew what they were doing, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. No judgment. 

Christine: It was pretty, uh, pretty, uh, cringe looking back, but I– They basically ended up sending an email that was like, “Oh, my dog is hurt. Can you send me money?” And I went, “What?” Like it was just like, “Okay, this is clearly they’re on their last– trying to just get whatever penny they can out of me.” And I was like, “This is–“ Immediately, I was like, “Oh, shit.” It was like a– It was like all the kind of spidey senses were suddenly like, “Damn it.” [laughs] 

Em: It, it all fell in on itself all at once? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, I– 

Christine: I mean, it was– Yeah, it was like a, a s– It was a, it was a couple hundred dollars. And so I was like, “This doesn’t feel good.” And I, I left it– I still want to get the tattoo ’cause I just love it, and I don’t have bad feelings about the tattoo or anything, but man, I was like, “Oof, I gotta be more careful.” So uh, I– Anyway, I say all this because I want people to not feel like– that, um, that– I don’t know. It h– can happen to anybody, so be careful. 

Em: Yeah. No, I– That sucks. But also it, it for some reason it would hurt my feelings twice as much that like, they’re basically breaking up with me where I’m like, “Wow, even they don’t want to do this shtick anymore.” [laughs] 

Christine: I know. I’m like, honestly. And then they never respo– 

Em: They’re like, “Let’s just obviously be shady immediately.” 

Christine: Then they ghosted me, and I was like, “Wow, I suck.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Aw. 

Christine: They really– Wow, they really rubbed the salt in it. But– 

Em: I’m sorry. 

Christine: –no, it was, it was all fine. And like honestly, I was more like mortified than anything. And then I was like, “Whoa, okay,” and I went through the emails, and I was like, “Damn.” 

Em: I– 

Christine: I’ve shown a couple people, and they were like, “I mean, honestly, it’s very convincing.” Like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And I talked to my father-in-law, who also recently had something happen on Etsy where somebody like scammed him, and like he was showing me the text, and I was like, “Yeah.” Like you start to realize the patterns, but like in the moment, they really take you off guard. Like they really can disarm you. 

Em: I mean, I’ve been scammed before. It– I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: You know, it happens. It happens. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. Okay. That ma– Thank you. I was like– 

Em: And– 

Christine: –“Of all people, the true crime half shouldn’t be getting bamboozled.” 

Em: If it makes you feel any better, I got scammed by literally one of those people who was like, “Oh, your, your card was re– We have to go i–“ 

Christine: [groans] Oh my god, I remember that. 

Em: “We have to– Your password into your bank account.” And the only reason I knew something shady was going on was because then I heard a dog bark. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And I was like, “Why the fuck–“ 

Christine: Thank– 

Em: “–would there be a dog at your com–?” Like that dog was literally trying to like tell me like, “Girl, get out of here.” Um– 

Christine: That dog saved you. Wow. 

Em: Yeah, so– 

Christine: Sheesh. 

Em: It’s the whistleblower. Um– 

Christine: [laughs] The whistleblower. 

Em: [chuckles] No, but it, it happens. At some point. I think everyone is gonna– You just hope that you get out of the scam fast enough, you know? 

Christine: Yeah. Just be careful, you know. If people are asking you for something, always w– always want– say why and also is there a more– even safer way to, to do this exchange? ’Cause– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Yeah, really silly stuff. Um, but yeah, so that’s what happened. Sorry, I never gave that update. I like have been meaning to since I think it was– I found out in August or something. It’s been a– Or– 

Em: Oh, wow. 

Christine: –maybe, maybe later, but it was like a couple months ago. Um, but honestly, I feel like the timing wasn’t right anyway. Like looking back, I’m like, “I have had new thoughts about it. I’ve been kind of brainstorming.” So I will eventually get my ho– [laughs] hopefully, if– [laughs] if I don’t– 

Em: Hopefully. 

Christine: –get fucking bamboozled all over again. 

Em: I mean, the– 

Christine: I’ll hopefully get him tattooed again, but it’s just– And also honestly, like of all tattoos, the fact that it was that little devil guy, and then I got totally hoodwinked. I don’t know. 

Em: I was gonna say the irony of it being a devil– 

Christine: It feels ironic, yeah. 

Em: –and something– Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: Well, okay. I’m glad I asked, but I’m so sorry, but, um– 

Christine: No, no, thank you for reminding me. I’ve been wanting to tell that story for ages. Um, but yeah, so just, just good stuff. Uh, but yeah. Anyway, [laughs] sorry. I know we probably all have to pee, etc. Um– 

Em: No, we can– Uh, do you want to pee first and then intermission? 

Christine: Yeah, then Mall World. Let’s meet in– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I’ll meet you at the Hollister. 

Em: I’ll, I’ll catch y– Send me– 

Christine: Bring a, bring a flashlight. 

Em: Send me your, your pin, and I’ll– Drop a pin. [chuckles] 

Christine: [laughs] I’ll fi– No way. Because I’m not getting sca– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I’m not getting bamboozled in Mall World, okay? [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

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Christine’s Story – Lauren “El” Cho 

Em: Okay. Well, um, unfortunately back to our, uh, regularly scheduled programming where we just get bummed the fuck out– 

Christine: Oof. 

Em: –but I’m excited. 

Christine: I gotta say, yeah, this– That was a– quite a tangent we went on there. We talked about– 

Em: I loved it. 

Christine: I– was really fun. I was– really interesting. Um, we looked at some Mall World maps, and we talked about our, our general dream worlds we go to and just kind of some creepy stuff. Um, anyway, so now let’s get back to, unfortunately, the real world. Um, I’m going to tell you a story. This came across my– came across my desk? What am I? A broadcaster? 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t know why I said it like that. [chuckles] This like came across my– What? What? Windshield? What am I saying? 

Em: [laughs] I mean, you could just say it came across your desk. It, it sounds actually really cool, so. 

Christine: It sounds ridiculous, but sure. Yeah. So it came– 

Em: Say it. 

Christine: –up. [laughs] No. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: No. Um, it came up as I was researching last week’s story about Daniel Robinson. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: He went missing in the desert, and we still don’t know what happened to him, and we talked about that. And this one came across my desk also while I was researching that because it occurred around the same time and also got kind of, um, similar criticism for not being handled, uh, with enough media exposure as, uh, Gabby Petito’s case. So similar time period, um, similar type of story, uh, also takes place in the desert. So I’m just gonna tell this now while I have it fresh in my mind. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: This is the story of Lauren, or as she was known by her friends, “El” Cho. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So El Cho, Lauren, was born on December 20, 1990 in South Korea but grew up in New Jersey as a Korean-American woman. She was described as creative, funny, intensely loyal, just like a really goofy type of– uh, goofy and different type of, type of girl. She graduated from Hunterdon Central Regional High School in 2009 and later studied music education at Westminster Choir College. Uh, she worked as a music teacher upon graduating, but when the pandemic hit, you know, teaching in general obviously got a huge hit, but then imagine having to teach music virtually like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –not an easy situation. 

Em: Tough gig. 

Christine: Yeah. And so she really kind of got hit with that, um– 

Em: What– 

Christine: –felt really disillusioned. 

Em: What instrument was she teaching? 

Christine: Um, I think different instruments. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: She was in a choir group. Um, I believe she played cello. There were a couple– I thi– She was just one of those like very musically gifted, um, people. And so she was teaching high school music, so I’m assuming that’s just all sorts of– I mean, ima– Remember in the pandemic and like people just stopped even caring ’cause like there was so much going on that like caring about classes– I mean, I wasn’t in college, but my sister was, and I knew people who were in college, and it was like they had to scramble to even get students to like– 

Em: Pay attention or–? 

Christine: Zoom was barely– or show up or like Zoom was barely a thing. Like people were just trying to find any way– And like, of course, music, you know, the arts as we say, like is probably one of the first to be axed, and so like how are you gonna teach a high school music class in 2020 on the internet? 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Like that’s crazy to even think about. 

Em: Um, can I try to top you real quick? Because– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –um, I don’t know if you recall, but we lived in the roach apartment, um, during COVID with RJ, and he was a swim coach during COVID. And he had to– 

Christine: Oh my god, that’s right. 

Em: He had– 

Christine: I knew it reminded me of something. That’s– 

Em: He had to teach swim classes online o– 

Christine: On the internet. Like you’re right. That’s even wor– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That’s even– Yeah, that’s the one thing besides like PE or whatever that, that– 

Em: He would just– I’d just hear him in there go, “Good job.” [laughs] 

Christine: Wow. Now, that– You’re right, Em. 

Em: And he’d go, “Now do this.” [laughs] [puts their hands side-by-side in front of them, making an up-and-down waving motion to mimic swimming] 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. “Use your– Good form.” Oh my god. Em, you’re right. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: That– That’s up there. That is up there. 

Em: He– Yeah, he– A, a lot of people– I, I– He was my only experience, and that was obviously one of the most bizarre. 

Christine: I’m just thinking like the only other thing would be like downhill skiing or something– 

Em: Right. [laughs] 

Christine: –where you would require like a mountain or a– 

Em: Like, like your– Like– 

Christine: –a Olympic pool. 

Em: Like your driver’s license, like– 

Christine: Right, like I mean, even that you could sort of simulate, but yeah. I mean– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: I feel so bad– Any– 

Christine: Very good point. Very good point. 

Em: Anyone who had to teach anything online– 

Christine: Anything. 

Em: Anything. Even if it was a book class. Like just getting kids to sit still and actually pay attention to you– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –when they had all of the luxuries of their bedroom like– 

Christine: And figure out how like mute works, and I mean– Jeez. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: E-exactly. 

Em: Uh– He– 

Christine: Uh, no supervision, whatever. 

Em: Here’s a little cheers clinky to all the teachers out there [chuckles] ’cause holy shit. [holds their drink up to the camera as if clinking glasses for a toast] 

Christine: Yeah, seriou– I mean, honestly. And like, you know, she had just graduated college. She was in her early 20s. Like she was just not satisfied with this career path for, for the time being. 

Em: She had to be– And her early 20s, she probably– She just started teaching, and this was her first real– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –try at it or she– in her early years at least. I would be so discouraged. 

Christine: It’s like disheartening. Discouraging, exactly. Very discouraging. And so in December of 2020, after, um, feeling like really fed up with the whole situation, she quit her job and decided to travel cross-country with her friend, and this guy was also her ex-partner, ex-boyfriend, Cody. Uh, Cody Orrell [pronounced “or-el”] or Orrell [pronounced “or-ull”]. I’m not sure how to pronounce it. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: To pursue, they decided they were going to move west to pursue a new life together, not really together as a couple, just like he said, “I’ll come along with you.” They were good friends, and they decided to go west and pursue her dream of becoming a chef and running a food truck. And so Lauren– 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: Yeah, she was a very good chef, um, very good baker. And so she and Cody traveled in a converted school bus, and they eventually settled in Bombay Beach, California, which is this like artsy desert community. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, by June 2021, Lauren– Oh, do you know something about it? 

Em: Um, do you remember the van story? 

Christine: Is that what– Is that–? I had a feeling. 

Em: That, that’s a long story. It’s– That’s way too long for this episode right now, but, um, Christine knows an experience of mine. [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t ever want to talk about it again. [laughs] 

Em: I mean, Bombay Beach was very cool, but the story I have was not. [laughs] 

Christine: Okay. So the reason that I thought maybe there was a connection is because, um, the way– 

Em: I’m sorry for interrupting you so much. I, I’m interrupting you to apologize. 

Christine: Nope, because this is exactly where I was thinking. Because Kendall Rae covered this one on her YouTube channel, and, um, she talked about how like in the ‘70s, this was like a very good touristy spot, but then like issues with the lake and issues with stuff happened, and it just became like more of like an artsy– kind of people settled there when they didn’t have anywhere else to go or didn’t want to go anywhere else. And I was like, “This is starting to sound familiar–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “–uh, to the story.” [laughs] 

Em: It was essentially like a Palm Springs back then. Um– 

Christine: Yes, yes, yes. 

Em: –and it was a very beautiful area. Now– So this– It– Near Bombay Beach is the Salton Sea. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Um, which was so salty, it’s literally dried up. Um– 

Christine: Oh, that’s what it is. Okay. Yeah. 

Em: [chuckles] It’s lit– So a lot of people will do like music videos and stuff out there ’cause it looks like a desert, but it was once an ocean. 

Christine: Okay. Okay. 

Em: Um, and now there are a lot of artsy things. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, and a lot of the community out there, they are just living out there. Um, and they spend most of their time, um, making art with whatever they can find in town. This isn’t everybody, but it is a, a major pull for people ’cause if you want to go see– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –something interesting or, you know, different than living in the city, um, there are really cool stuff. Like there’s one area that looks like a, a, a drive-in theater, and it– someone clearly just pushed a bunch of the old abandoned cars all facing one direction with a big white screen. Like it’s like– 

Christine: That’s so cool. Yeah. 

Em: It’s very creepy art, es– And the creepy element is because it is pretty isolated during the day, so you’re pretty much– 

Christine: Yeah, the aesthetic of it too feels very creepy. Yeah. 

Em: It’s very ghost towny, and so– 

Christine: Dried up lake. 

Em: –it feels like you’re alone, surrounded by like very big art installments– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –and you’re like, “What the fuck is going on?” Um– 

Christine: Like almost abandoned, like an abandoned movie– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –movie theater. Like that’s very creepy. 

Em: Yeah. I mean, even one of the cooler things is the, the lake that’s now dried up, you’ll literally just find like fish skeletons, like evidence that there was an ocean there. It’s super weird. 

Christine: [sucks in breath] Ooh, that just gave me chills. Yeah, that’s, that’s unsettling. And it actually is incredibly good context because essentially she moved out there– and when I was saying earlier like she was known as just being very like creative and different, I say that because, for example, like she worked for a while as a tattoo and piercing, um, apprentice, um, after college and had like– I mean, she was beautiful but like had really, um, specific like piercings and things that like– You know, you can tell looking at somebody in their 20s like, “Oh, wow. They have like a different style,” right? Like she has tattoos and piercings, and not everybody conforms to that kind of– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –look, right? And so she moved out there with this guy, and when they got to this area, she really felt like she fit, and she did. Um, she had some really good friends there. She actually worked, um, as the chef, the private chef, at an Airbnb that was owned by this Italian actor– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and it wasn’t an Airbnb. It was called an Airbnb co– or a– some sort of Airbnb complex. It was like– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: –all these multiple houses. Um, apparently, it was known for having very liberal policies about clothing and drugs, right? So it’s a sort of like– not drugs like hard drugs really, but like just very like– 

Em: No, it was very hippie, commune-y. 

Christine: Hippie. Yes– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –exactly. And so like people– clothing optional, you know, just very laid-back, very artsy. And so that is the context that this story is around because she moved there from New Jersey, right, as a teacher, and moved here to pursue her dream of opening her school bus up as a restaurant. Like– 

Em: So sick. 

Christine: –wow, you know. 

Em: So cool. 

Christine: That’s like very– a very unique path, but she ended up there. And so that’s– I’m glad you brought that up because that is very, very good, uh, con-context. 

Em: I really was trying to keep it together. I think you noticed me like wince or something. [laughs] 

Christine: I was like, “You have something to say, and you– Can you tell the class? You want to share with the class?” 

Em: No. Not, not– 

Christine: [sighs] [laughs] No. 

Em: I mean– 

Christine: Well, maybe– 

Em: I do– 

Christine: –maybe in your memoir. 

Em: I do, but it, it would obviously– You know the story. It would take way too long. So– 

Christine: Yeah, we– That needs its own like chapter of your memoir to go– to del– 

Em: That could be an intermission if we ever need it or something. 

Christine: Very good point. Yeah– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –very good point. So they settled for a time in Bombay Beach, um, this artsy desert community on the Salton Sea. And by June 2021, she was working as a private chef at this, um, Airbnb type property called “The Whole,”, uh, W-H-O-L-E– 

Em: Fun. 

Christine: –not “The Hole.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: That sounds a lot scarier. Um, [chuckles] “The Whole” [pronounced “h-wole”], and it was located between Morongo Valley and Yucca Valley, California, near Joshua Tree. So a little bit of context, um, before her disappearance, friends and her ex-boyfriend, um, Cody, later told reporters that Lauren had moved west seeking “freedom” and a fresh start and that she was working on recipes and private dinners as part of her ambitions to become a chef. According to friends, Lauren had recently been experiencing some emotional stress and “mental distress”, although they said like “not to the point that we think she would have been in crisis and wandered off,” but, you know, you never know. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Um, I can imagine that many people in general, let alone in their like early 20s trying to like start fresh, were not somehow mentally distressed during 2020, right? Like that’s a fair– It’s fair to assume a lot of us were struggling, right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And so, um, there’s never been like a formal diagnosis, but that’s just something to note, that her friends did say she was feeling like stressed and distressed, um, occasionally before her disappearance. So in the days leading up to the disappearance, uh, which was June 28, 2021, she had been staying at the Benmar Trail property, um, with Cody and other friends, and they had their school bus there. She and Cody were living on this school bus. It was pretty big. Um, and basically, they said like “even though we were exes, that was in high school, and like we were just close friends, and–“ 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: It was nothing weird about it, you know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So [sighs] fast forward to June 28, 2021, the day of the disappearance. Lauren was at the property, um, in the 8600 block of Benmar Trail near Yucca Valley, where she lived and worked. Friends later told authorities and media that Lauren, um, had become upset that afternoon. Um, she and her friends and Cody were having a few drinks. It was a hot day. They had a couple beers, and when, um, she and Cody had kind of an offside chat, offline chat, um, they started to argue about something. And it seems very minor, but she got annoyed. And she apparently wanted to get in the car and drive somewhere, and he told her, “You can’t drive. You’ve had a few drinks,” and she got really frustrated and walked away. 

Em: And this is out in Bombay Beach? 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: At– Yeah, in that area. Yeah. At approximately 3 p.m., Lauren reportedly walked away from the residence on foot, heading toward the surrounding hills and desert area near Hoopa Road and Benmar Trail. She left behind her personal belongings, including her cell phone, her bag, and other items she typically carried with her. And her friends were like, “Oh, she just needs to blow off some steam. You know, she’s mad that like Cody wouldn’t let her drive after she had a few drinks. She just walked away to like huff and puff, whatever.” 

Em: Yeah, take a lap. 

Christine: Yep. But ten minutes in, Cody started to feel a little off and said, “We should go after and look for her.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: She had left behind her personal belongings, including her cell phone, so they couldn’t even call her to find her– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –her bag, other items she typically carried with her, especially if she were leaving the property. Friends noted she also left behind her pet parrotlet– 

Em: Stop it. 

Christine: –baby parrot. This was a small bird she was reportedly very attached to, did not like to leave behind even for a few hours. She would start to get anxious if she left him behind. And when she left, she was last seen wearing a yellow t-shirt, jean shorts, and Doc Martens-style boots. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Her ex-boyfriend, Cody, um– He is described as being the last person to have seen her when she disappeared. He and friends began to search the immediate area and hills around the property about ten minutes after she walked away. Um, they started looking, but the more they looked, the more concerned they got because they could not find any trace of her. After roughly three hours when she did not come back– Right? Like they’re like looking and looking, hoping she’ll just turn up and say, “What are you guys doing?” you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: She just doesn’t seem to be coming back three hours later. Cody contacts the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department Morongo Basin Station to report her missing, and that is 5:13 p.m. So the initial law enforcement response, um, occurred quickly. The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department opened a missing person investigation. Um, and again, like we’re in that dangerous part of the world where you don’t necessarily realize how quickly your body falls apart if you don’t have water, if you don’t have– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –communication to the outside world, you know. You don’t have your phone; you don’t have– 

Em: And it– 

Christine: –shelter. 

Em: I don’t know the geography very well. I don’t know how big Bombay Beach is. I only know the area by the Salton Sea because we went to go see all the artsy stuff. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, but it, it was definitely a place where like you don’t– you’re not out by yourself at night. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Like for safety reasons, you mean? Or for like– 

Em: For safety reasons, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Like it– And not that it was particularly dangerous, but it was so isolated, and it was so– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Y– I mean, it– You just don’t know who’s out there. It, it– I mean, it’s– it feels creepy during the day. So like going out at night– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –would just kind of feel silly. 

Christine: Well, and like liberal, open, progressive places like this draw also people who don’t have good intentions, right? 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: Like not everybody who’s there is gonna be, um, like a peace and love– you know? I mean, there’s– And, and if they can find vulnerable people– Yeah, so you’re right. There’s like that fear base of like– And the fact that they’re not finding any trace of her is alarming because also the Doc Marten, uh, shoes– Like you’d think– The police came out and said, “We can’t even find her shoe prints out here.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So like either she hopped in a car, you know, got picked up, something like that. But yeah, it’s, it’s like alarming because you’d expect in ten minutes that she’s just kind of in the area, right? Like– 

Em: Right, right. 

Christine: It adds to the creep factor, for sure. So they– they’re pretty– 

Em: It sounds like she like right away was maybe taken off by– you know– 

Christine: Something. Like a very– Something very quickly happened. I mean, it’s one of those cases where you hear like ten minutes and– 

Em: Yeah, anything can happen. 

Christine: [snaps finger] –like that. Anything can happen. So they open this missing person investigation. Um, early searches involved deputies, search-and-rescue volunteers. Um, I believe they had like nine dogs, uh, searching for her. They combed the desert with volunteers and rugged terrain near the Benmar Trail property. They had these ground teams with canines that were deployed. Um, at least one aircraft was used to search from the air. And authorities described the search area as “rugged terrain of the open desert of Yucca Valley” with challenging conditions, high heat, and limited shade. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Missing person flyers with Lauren’s description and a photo were posted throughout Yucca Valley and Morongo Valley. Um, the word got out pretty quickly locally. Um, but for several months, it couldn’t really get beyond that. It remained largely regional, covered by local news outlets, um, such as the Hi-Desert Star, ABC affiliates, regional online news. Uh, it just wasn’t blowing up to be a nationwide story. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So in September 2021, law enforcement publicly announced that the Specialized Investigations Division, which includes the Homicide Detail, had joined the search due to the length of her disappearance and the fact that they just had no leads. One of the alarming elements, like I said earlier, was the lack of the footprints. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: And that led them to believe like, “Maybe she didn’t wander for hours and hours, because we probably would have seen some tracks somewhere,” which obviously indicates that it could be foul play or maybe she was injured far earlier than they thought or far closer. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: But then why aren’t they finding any trace of her? Just very confusing. Friends and family created online pages and a website to share information about Lauren, using her nickname “El”, describing her as a talented musician, baker, “hilarious and loyal friend.” Some coverage compared the lower national attention to Lauren’s disappearance with the intense national focus on Gabby Petito, which is something I brought up with the Daniel Robinson case because they did occur around the same time. And both of the two cases I’ve just mentioned were people of color, whereas, you know, Gabby Petito– I will say, of course, that ou–that case had its own kind of sick fascination because there were so much video footage– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –and she was a vlogger. I mean, it really l-lends itself to like [sighs] a nationwide story. But I think the argument is always like it’s not that people want less coverage for a story like Gabby Petito, it’s that I– you know, I wish we had that same amount of coverage– 

Em: For everyone. 

Christine: –for everyone– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –for all the people missing, yeah. Um, and so that– I just say that to say that’s how they both came across my desk recently is, um– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –kind of looking in that, in that shadow of the Gabby Petito case. So– Which I have not covered yet, and I will at some point ’cause it is really dark and just– 

Em: Gabby Petito? You haven’t covered that? 

Christine: Yeah. Mm-mmm. 

Em: I always, I always mix it up with Brian Laspisa’s. 

Christine: Oh, no. Gabby Petito, um, she’s like the van life influencer. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um– 

Em: No, I just mixed up their– I don’t know why, but– 

Christine: Oh, the– 

Em: –they both were– they seemed the same level of heightened to me. 

Christine: Mm, interesting. Yeah, I feel like, um, Gabby Petito is something I need to cover at some point ’cause I don’t know enough about it yet. Um, anyway, so essentially that raised a lot of broader questions about disparities in media attention, um, especially regarding people of color and women of color. And as for the ongoing search, which went into fall of 2021, throughout July, August, and September, search teams conducted additional operations in the desert around Yucca Valley and Morongo Valley but did not locate any sign of Lauren or any of her belongings, like any clothes, any shoelace, nothing. 

Em: It’s like she was just airlifted. 

Christine: Yes, like the– vanished, which is– It’s like it sounds so crazy, but then it’s like, “Well, it’s also this huge expanse of wilderness,” you know? So it’s like– [sighs] You want to be like, “Oh, it must be foul play,” but also it could very well just be like the elements, you know? 

Em: Yeah, it could be. I mean, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. No way to know. Friends reported traveling extensively around the region. They would post flyers at gas stations, any businesses they came across, both in the “low desert” and “high desert”. Um, they went all the way to San Diego to search for her because the previous week, I guess, she had mentioned wanting to go to the beach, and they thought maybe that’s where she was headed. Nothing. Sheriff’s officials stated publicly that they were following all leads and co– uh, continuing to work– coordinate with family and friends, um, but nothing they did seemed to break this case open – until October 9, 2021. And that is when they discovered human remains during a search. Um, during a search in the open desert of Yucca Valley, investigators located unidentified human remains in the rugged terrain. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: They were found in an area of Yucca Valley desert, not far from where the earlier searches had been concentrated, although we don’t know– They have not publicly listed the coordinates, so we don’t know the exact location. But the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department announced that the remains had been found during operations, uh, related to the search for Lauren, but that identification would take some time. So at first, it’s that kind of horrible waiting period that I imagine people go through of like– 

Em: Couldn’t imagine. 

Christine: –“I want an answer, but–“ Yeah, exactly. So October 28, 2021, uh, the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department announced that the remains recovered on October 9 had indeed been positively identified as those of Lauren Cho. The Coroner Division confirmed the identification and stated that the cause and manner of death were pending toxicology results and that no additional details would be released at this time. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Law enforcement also stated that they had no rel– reason to believe foul play was involved, um, although they did not definitively rule it out, depending on what further analysis would show. So that’s kind of where it stops, and that was in 2021. And I started researching like reasons why toxicology results wouldn’t be publicly– would, wouldn’t be made public. And I guess there are a variety of reasons including like if they don’t think it was foul play, they don’t really have a reason to post it publicly– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –or if the family doesn’t feel like they want to share that, then– 

Em: Yeah, maybe they don’t. 

Christine: Right. And if it’s not– And that would only I guess make sense if it were not foul play because otherwise they would need to use that for some sort of a trial. But, um, yeah, there’s– it’s just unclear. We just don’t really know, except we can assume that they’ve said they don’t believe foul play was involved. And the family has essentially made a statement saying, um, you know, how deep their grief was, thanking the people who helped search for her, shared information, supported them. Um, her sister wrote that they were “the luckiest” to have had 30 years with Lauren– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and described the “depths of collective sorrow” that the family felt once they found out that she had indeed passed. Um, she’s remembered as just a really cool sister and friend, [sighs] um, just a really beautiful soul. And as of October 2021, there really hasn’t been much of an update. Um, cause and manner of death were pending toxicology at the time, and, uh, no further details would be released un-unless like they needed to for some reason. So yeah, we don’t really know. There have been no arrests or suspects in connection with Lauren’s death. Um, as for Cody, he was never considered, um– 

Em: I was about to ask. 

Christine: –a person of interest because he was with that big group, and she walked away after an argument, and he went with them to go look, and there was– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –just no way, you know. So yeah, it’s just, it’s just really sad [sighs] and too bad. Um, and it’s been cited, the story, in conversations about media inequality and coverage of missing person’s cases um, especially involving women of color. Um, advocacy has, uh, focused on the element of like “she’s more than just like a conspiracy,” or people– you know, I mean you s– It’s hard to read even like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –even as someone who doesn’t know these people, to see people saying like, “Oh, she just like went off and killed hersel–“ or whatever people just like spout nonsense on the internet– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –as if, you know, they’re contributing anything, and it’s just really hurtful. The family has said like it’s really hurtful, um– 

Em: I bet, yeah. 

Christine: –to hear stuff like that. And so, you know, there’s not really much more to go on at this point, but the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department does encourage anyone with additional info, um, about Lauren’s activities or state of mind, um, on that day to contact their tip lines, uh– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –although the lar– case is largely treated as resolved regarding her remains. So yeah, that’s the story. And it’s just like you don’t hear about these things. I haven’t heard about this story before, and it’s like four years later, you know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It's just sad. 

Em: And it’s, it’s one of those cases where you just hope that they held on to the right what-whatever evidence future technology will be able to– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –to come up with– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah if– 

Em: –or that they– You just gotta hope that there’s better answers in the future. 

Christine: Well, maybe they have answers, and the family’s just like, that’s the– you know– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –maybe they know she died of natural causes, and they’ve just chosen to leave it at that, you know. 

Em: Yeah, great point. 

Christine: Unclear, but, um, yeah, just really sad either way. 

Em: Wow. Um, hm. 

Christine: I got a hankerin’ for an Auntie Anne’s pretzel. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: It’s all this talk of Mall World. I’m like, “Let me get back into Mall World real quick.” 

Em: I was– 

Christine: “Avoid the real world and its problems.” 

Em: I was gonna say, do you need the van story to like l– bring in some levity? But– Well, I still want to hold off on that ’cause that’s it’s own– 

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s its own– 

Em: –true crime in some ways. Um– 

Christine: And I don’t find that levity whatsoever. I was– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I was ready to like hella, hella rescue both of you. 

Em: It was, uh– Yeah, let’s just– 

Christine: It was harrowing from a third-party perspective, let alone a first-person. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god. 

Em: It was a, it was a doozy of a day. Um, okay, Auntie Anne’s. I don’t– You don’t strike me as an Auntie Anne’s mall person. Um– 

Christine: I love the smell. I’m more of like– Give me a big cookie. 

Em: Hm. My hometown mall used to have a Wendy’s in it, and that was my go-to Wendy’s. 

Christine: A Wendy’s, interesting. We had a– 

Em: And they had, they had a pizza place that really rocked my shit, and to this day, I can’t remember the name or I’d look ‘em up. 

Christine: Oh, a Sbarro? [laughs] 

Em: It was not [chuckles], not a Sbarro. No. 

Christine: Oh, man. 

Em: Well, anyway. 

Christine: Anyway. [laughs] 

Em: Speaking of which, I guess I’m gonna go eat a pizza now. 

Christine: I am very hungry, so I’m gonna go eat. 

Em: Well, thank you e– 

Christine: Well, thanks for listening– Ah. 

Em: Thank you everybody. I know. I’m sorry. I feel like this was just like interruption central today. I’m so sorry. 

Christine: No, we needed to get a lot out of our systems. It’s fine. 

Em: Hadn’t seen you in a, in a little bit. Um– 

Christine: I know there’s a lot to discuss. 

Em: Oy-ai-ai. Yes. Thank you, everybody. Uh, go check out Patreon if you would like more of this. Go check out our YouTube. Go check out our social medias. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Read our books. The end. 

Christine: We’re everywhere, and you can’t escape us. So you’re welcome for that. 

Em: And– 

Christine: That’s– 

Em: Why– 

Christine: We– 

Em: Drink. 

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