Listener Stories: Vol. 110 featuring. Sarah Marshall

Stories:

1: Satanic Panic and Pokemon - Paola (She/Her)
2: Hypnosis gone wrong - Leyli (She/her)
3: Dungeons, Dragons, and the Satanic Panic of the 1980s - Haylee
4: Satanic Panic in Ohio - Faith (she/her)
5: Martensville Satanic Nightmare - Sandi (she/her)
6. SATANIC PANIC AT THE TRUCK STOP - Mel (they/them)
7: Satanic Panic in Alabama

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December is here and we sent a Satan symbol to the clouds to summon the awesome Sarah Marshall to join us for a batch of satanic panic themed listener tales. Today we hear about satanic Pokémon Tazos, panic at the truck stop, hypnosis gone wrong, possible devil worshippers in the woods, and more. And please... keep your frogs away from us… and that’s why we drink!

Catch Sarah Marshall on her new show The Devil You Know: https://link.mgln.ai/HHprbw OR on You’re Wrong About: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/youre-wrong-about/id1380008439

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Transcript

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[intro music] 

Em: Happy December, everybody. Uh, it is another listeners’ episode for you where we read your submitted stories. Uh, sometimes they are spooky. Sometimes they are true crimey. But today we have a theme. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: It is all about satanic panic, uh, this month– 

Christine: Because we have an expert. 

Em: –because we have an expert. 

Christine: We have an expert on our panel. Um, it’s the first time we’ve ever had a panel, and we have an expert today, so I feel like that word is appropriate. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Um, hello. Sarah, would you like to, uh, introduce yourself? 

Sarah: Hi. Yeah, my name is Sarah Marshall, and I am not a satanic panic expert– 

Em: Dang! 

Sarah: –but I am proof that if you remain enthusiastic and interested– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Sarah: –in the same thing for ten years or more– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Sarah: –people will just decide to grade inflate you to an expert. 

Christine: Exactly. 

Sarah: And if you want to, you can ride that all the way to Congress. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I was gonna say, people take that– 

Sarah: And I think it’s very big of me to choose not to. 

Christine: Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I’ll give you the label. You don’t have to accept it. [chuckles] 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. No. So, uh– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: –that– 

Sarah: Well, I guess put it on the table and cut off small slices to eat. 

Christine: That’s beautiful. Wow. How poignant. 

Em: [chuckles] Perfect. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: Yeah. This is, uh, Sarah Marshall. Can I– Uh, let me know if I get anything else wrong, but I’m gonna call you a journalist, a writer, and a podcaster. All those fit? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Okay, perfect. 

Sarah: That is– Th-th-those are definitely “objectably”– wait. 

Christine: Factual [chuckles]– 

Em: Perfect. 

Christine: –titles. 

Sarah: Those are objectively true. 

Em: And satanic panic armchair expert? 

Sarah: Well, it’s been a long year. I don’t know words anymore. 

[Em and Christine laugh] 

Em: Well, we, uh, we have a few stories we’re gonna read, and, uh, of course, if you have any feedback or input, we would love to hear that or, um, you know, it’s, it’s pretty lax over here. So we would love to hear your thoughts on people’s experiences. Um, Christine, do you want to start? Or–? 

Christine: Sure. 

Em: Okay. Perfect. 

Christine: If I may. Alright. 

Story 1 – Satanic Panic and Pokémon 

Christine: Actually, maybe you should have started, but it’s too late, Em, because this one is called “Satanic Panic and Pokémon.” 

Em: Oh, great, great, great. 

Sarah: Oh boy. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: That’s one of my big fixations. 

Christine: Sarah’s like, “I’m already in– on the wrong podcast. This is already–“ [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “This is already derailing.” Okay, this is from Paola (she/her), and it says, “Hi everyone! I saw your story on Instagram asking for satanic panic stories and immediately thought of my mom.” Oh, that’s nice. 

Em: Great. 

Christine: “My family’s all originally from a small farming town in Mexico. Everyone knows everyone and their business type beat. On top of that, everyone is very Catholic (yippee!).” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: “Since it was such a small town, all the moms knew each other and gossip together and whatnot. So, you best believe word gets around quickly.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: “This particular story revolves around my brother. It takes place in the ‘90s when he was eight or nine before we moved to the States. Back then, when you would buy a bag of chips, lots of time there would be some form of collectible in the bag, usually a small toy, like something that would come in a Kinder egg. My brother collected a specific kind called tazos, small metallic or wooden discs with designs on it. He collected the Pokémon ones, and he had A LOT. I mean, more than any other kid in town. And back then, games and collecting was taken very seriously. While my brother was amassing his collection, my mom was growing concerned. You see, all the moms would watch this news program called Primer Impacto, or First Impact in English. It shared news but was way too dramatic for its own good. Apparently, it ran a segment linking Pokémon to the devil–“ 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: “–detailing all the subliminal satanic messages in the show and the games. So, as moms in the ‘90s, they all panicked, and they believed it. One day, my brother came home from school and found my mom in the backyard next to a bonfire.” 

Em: Oh gosh. 

Christine: First of all– 

Em: Burning all of his Pokémons? 

Christine: Yeah. And I just want to say– 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: –like even if it were satanic, especially if it were satanic, don’t burn it. You’re just gonna– 

Sarah: Right. 

Christine: –release all the demons. 

Sarah: –release the devil energy. 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: Right? 

Sarah: Exactly. 

Christine: I’m like, “What kind of Catholic–“ 

Sarah: How come we’re the ones who have to tell people that? They should know. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: It’s like that’s the most ritualistic thing that’s happened to these Pokémon right then. 

Christine: You’re probably creating the problem. Exactly. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oy vey. Okay. Uh, [scanning for where she left off] ba-dub-ba-duh-ba-dah. “What was in the fire, you ask? Good question. All of his tazos.” 

Em: [sympathetically] Mm. 

Christine: “His collection was wasting away in a fiery blaze before his very eyes.” This’s very traumatic. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: “You can imagine how distraught he was. Em, it would–“ This is calling you out. 

Em: Mm? 

Christine: “–it would basically be if someone burned your whole Pokémon card collection.” 

Em: It, it couldn’t be done without me committing a crime afterwards. [laughs] 

Sarah: Think of the value of those demons on eBay today. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [gasps] Haunted, burned, demonic Pokémon card. Yeah, that’s actually– Probably you could get quite a profit. 

Em: They’re super rare, I guess. They’re perfectly singed, you know. [chuckles] 

Christine: That’s right. ’90s– Yeah, for sure. Original. 

Em: Previously satanic. 

Christine: “She said she did it because he didn’t w– she didn’t want him being exposed to the devil’s messages. To this day, we always bring it up whenever we want to give my mom grief. It’s funny now but probably not back then.” 

Sarah: Mm. 

Christine: “In any case, that news show always ran crazy shit and spread a lot of panic back in the day. I’m not sure if it’s airing still, but everyone is less prone to believing it now. I’m sure our parents have moved on to believing AI images of Jesus surfing on lava on Facebook or something like that.” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: “Justice for my brother and love you all lots. Bye-bye! Paola.” The end. [laughs] 

Em: Paola? 

Sarah: Wow. 

Em: Yeah, I– You know, I remember going through a phase where I learned about music like backmasking– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –which is like when you play a song backwards and it might have a message. The Pokémon– 

Christine: “Paul is a dead man. Kill him. Kill him.” 

Em: Well, the Pokémon theme song s– apparently, when you play it backwards, does say, “I love Satan. I love Satan.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: So, not to, not to validate the belief here– 

Christine: You know, you were in a past life a producer on this fucking television show. 

Em: I, I– [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, it was while you were alive, so that’s probably not how that works, but I feel like you’d fit right in, like some sort of yellow journalism. 

Em: Well, I feel like with like, um, with Pokémon, it’s very– well, not very similar, but I feel like it fell into the same, uh, you know, blacklisted categories like Harry Potter and things like that. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: I don’t, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because it’s animals that are unnatural or something? I mean, what’s your take on this, Sarah? 

Sarah: Well, I mean, I think based on the story of The Velveteen Rabbit, we can actually assume that all the Pokémon became real– 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: Fair point. 

Sarah: They wandered off into the countryside. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Sarah: Right? 

Em: That’s a great point. 

Sarah: And– at the moment the fire started and saved themselves, and they’re still out there somewhere. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Sarah: So I think that’s really nice. 

Christine: Ohh. Now they have a little community. 

Sarah: But also I, I– I feel like I– Again, I mean, I have like a blind spot in this area because I’ve researched the satanic panic for years, but I personally have never believed in the devil. And I just– I don’t care about the devil, you know? 

Christine: Mm. Exactly. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Sarah: It’s just not an exciting or scary area for me because I feel like– Like if you want to scare me, just like put on, you know, a-anything on the Investigation Discovery channel about a guy named Dale– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: –and I’ll be sad for that. 

Em: You are in the– You’re in the right place. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is where Em and I kind of have like the differing where I’m like, “Ah, fuck it.” And Em’s always a little more– being the Jewish one is always like, “I’ll say the Our Father just in case.” [laughs] And I’m like– 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: Just in case. You never, you never know which one’s gonna work. So if something feels weird– 

Christine: Yeah, Em’s like, “Whatever saves me saves me.” 

Sarah: Yeah. ’Cause you gotta be pragmatic. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: But yeah, I feel like– And this is the kind of thing where it’s like– And, you know, the, the satanic panic, historically, there’s been a lot of panic over children’s toys. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: And Chelsey Weber-Smith over at American Hysteria has done some great research on like, you know, specifically the panic around kind of like ‘80s Saturday morning cartoons. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Sarah: And I think like, for example, Rainbow Brite was supposed to be like– 

Christine: That’s right. 

Sarah: You couldn’t let your kids watch Rainbow Brite because she was, I don’t know, pagan or something. It’s– I– Who can say. 

Em: What? I didn’t know that. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: But it, it always– 

Christine: It’s like none of these things were a thing until they pointed at it and said, “That’s– She’s pagan.” 

Sarah: Right. Like it’s, it’s– 

Christine: And suddenly, it’s like, “Oh, I guess she is now.” I don’t know. 

Sarah: Yeah. It’s interesting that it feels like the people who are scared of the devil are seeing him and everything historically– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Isn’t that interesting? 

Em: Yes. 

Sarah: –and, you know, and that, that’s still been consistent. And I will say that like– 

Christine: Well, I got these, I got these little guys [Christine holds up a small gray Labubu with closed eyes and a toothy grin], and everyone– and, you know, I read a review that was like, “This Labubu–“ And they were like, “Oh my god, the church needs to step in,” and I’m like, “What is going on?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: I remember hearing about that. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: And it’s like, “While I would like it if like we did more, you know, sort of to encourage over-consumption less–“ 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: “–as a function of organized religion–“ 

Christine: We could focus on that. 

Sarah: “–but that’s not what people are saying.” 

Christine: Yeah, that’s not the point. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Right, exactly. I’m like, “I could understand your point if that were it.” 

Sarah: So I guess the idea that the devil is like– I don’t know. I find it– I mostly find it confusing, and I just want to hear more about it honestly where there– It feels like there’s this idea that the devil is like very powerful, very scary, can literally take your soul– 

Em: Mm. 

Sarah: –but also is like forced to do something as undignified as like– 

Christine: Yes! 

Sarah: –sneaking in on like– I know these aren’t Pogs, but I’m just picturing Pogs. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: It looks like a Pog, I imagine. 

Sarah: You know? 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. He sneaks in on a Pog. Exactly. Like he must not be very impressive o– and/or convincing or influential– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: –if he needs to like get little kids on board via Rainbow Brite morning cartoons. 

Sarah: If I were the Prince of Darkness, I would not be sneaking into people’s houses on Pogs, you know? 

Em: Right? Right. 

Sarah: I, I just wouldn’t. [unintelligible] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I mean, maybe we just don’t get it, you know? Maybe there’s just this whole– 

Sarah: We just don’t get it. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, and that’s okay. But I– You know, but the thing is like, speaking of AI images of Jesus, like I do find it interesting that there is such a market– and this is kind of getting back to, you know, what Elsagate was like ten years ago, but now we have the capacity to create like endless AI videos. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: And have you seen the ones like the AI slop videos? And this is like a defined genre of like cats accidentally cooking their kittens into like– Like there’s a mom cat– 

Christine: [shocked sound] Uh? 

Sarah: –and she accidentally puts her kitten in like some food that she’s making because she’s thinking about having an affair off– They’re always cats. 

Christine: Hello? [laughs in shock] 

Em: What? [laughs in shock] 

Sarah: And then her husband comes home, and they eat the kitten lasagna. And then they realize what ha– what’s happened, and he calls the cat police, and they arrest her. And that’s like the story, and that’s a genre of narrative that’s being shown to like really little kids, you know? 

Christine: Now, I’m assuming, I’m assuming this is on the dark web, right? Like I wouldn’t have access to this kind of– [laughs] 

Sarah: No, it’s just on Kids YouTube, you know. 

Em: That’s wild. 

Christine: Oh, good. [chuckles] 

Sarah: That’s where we put all the worst stuff in the world. 

Christine: It’s on my daughter’s iPad. Okay, excellent. 

Sarah: Right? 

Christine: Good, good, good. 

Sarah: And it’s like– 

Em: But that’s– 

Sarah: So we’re– So we have like human beings who are intentionally terrifying children ’cause it’s like a little bit more profitable than doing, you know, back in the good old days of 2019– 

Christine: Mm. 

Sarah: –when we just had like Eastern European kinetic sand slicing videos– 

Christine: Correct, yes. 

Sarah: –which I’m very nostalgic for at this point. 

Christine: Yes, beautiful. Beautiful. 

Em: I– 

Sarah: But I would like to panic more about that, you know. 

Christine: Seriously. 

Sarah: But I guess since the devil isn’t involved, it’s not as exciting. 

Christine: It’s not as thrilling. Mm-mmm. 

Em: Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, yeah. I, uh– 

Sarah: And it’s promoting family values ’cause that mom cat was thinking about having sex. 

Christine: She got what she deserved. 

Sarah: So that’s why she killed her– 

Em: Right. 

Sarah: –her kitten accidentally. 

Christine: That’s what happens. 

Sarah: So it’s really– it’s very Christian, I guess. 

Christine: That’s right. That’s kind of what they would teach you in Sunday school anyway. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: It, it is interesting that that’s not at least equally demonic as Pogs essentially, you know? 

Christine: Yeah, that part’s not a concern to the church. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: No. 

Christine: It’s just, it’s just the actual, um– 

Sarah: If– Look, I was a very sensitive kid, and if I had seen like one video– 

Christine: Oh god, yeah. 

Sarah: –of like a mom cat accidentally making her baby into meatballs, I would have never recovered. 

Christine: Oh, I’m barely recovering right now. 

Em: No, never. 

Sarah: I would be in baskets to this day. Yeah. 

Christine: I’m barely recovering just hearing about it. 

Em: I’m gonna think about it for the rest of the day. Thank you so much. 

Sarah: Exactly. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, I’m sorry. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: So sensitive, so sensitive. 

Sarah: I’m sorry to tell you that. 

Em: [laughs] No, no– 

Christine: This whole genre– That’s– The fact that it’s a genre makes me just want to cry. 

Em: Yeah. That it’s a series. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: [chuckles] It’s like what else is going to happen to these kittens? Um– 

Sarah: Yeah, a lot of like inter-kitten family murder. Eh. 

Christine: Disturbing. 

Em: [chuckles] It– Yeah. And not a problem at all. Um– 

Christine: [chuckles] Mm-mmm. 

Story 2 – Hypnosis Gone Wrong 

Em: Would you like to read a story? Or would you like us to, to read them to you? 

Christine: To regale you with them? 

Sarah: I would love to read one, yeah. 

Christine: Oh, great. 

Em: Okay. Would you like to read the next one? 

Sarah: Yeah. Is that just like “2 Form Submission – Hypnosis Gone Wrong”? 

Christine: Number two, that’s right. 

Em: That’s right. 

Sarah: Okay. 

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[Sarah’s camera is frozen as she begins to read the listener's story.] 

Sarah: “Dear Christine (who should always be named first), Em (you’re so pretty)–“ 

Em: [chuckles] 

Sarah: “–and Eva (thank you for keeping it all together for them.)” This is nice. 

Christine: Wh– [laughs] I think they got us mixed up, Em. 

Em: [laughs] You know what? I’ll– 

Sarah: Well– 

Christine: Obviously, I’m the beauty of the group. [laughs] 

Em: Right, right, right. 

Sarah: You know what? We’ll, we’ll figure– we’ll litigate it all out after. 

Christine: Thank you. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Sarah: Um, okay. So, so Leyli writes, “I’m a Capricorn, so I never thought I would have a story I could share on the paranormal side.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: God, this is an incredible start. Thank you, Leyli. 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: “And I don’t, quote, ‘light up a room–‘“ 

Christine: [laughs] Welcome to our podcast. This is how people discuss– [laughs] 

Sarah: “–so my chance of being murdered is greatly reduced. But then Em covered Mesmer. I have a great and terrible story about hypnosis, specifically hypnotherapy.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Sarah: Oh boy. 

Christine: Oh boy. 

Sarah: “When I was young, we had family friends who would occasionally get to–“ Wait. “When I was young, we had family friends we would occasionally get together with. I loved going over to their house, but always thought the mom (let’s call her Elizabeth) was very nice, but weird.” 

Christine: Hm. 

Sarah: “For example, the kids had the best toys, but Elizabeth wouldn’t let me, the youngest by a year, play with the Barbies. She was convinced I would swallow the shoes, even though I was already quite past that stage in life.” 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: “It wasn’t until I was an adult that I understood that she struggled with severe anxiety.“ 

Christine: Aw. 

Sarah: “I believe it was anxiety that led her to seek professional help from a therapist. Before I go farther, I want to say I’m a big supporter of therapy. I think working with a good therapist is so important, and I’m glad she was seeking help.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: “Unfortunately, I think this therapist did more harm than good. Her therapist encouraged the use of hypnotherapy to uncover repressed memories.” 

Christine: Oh! 

Sarah: “It is important to know that this was the late ‘80s/early ‘90s–" 

Christine: Mm. 

Sarah: “–in the midst of the satanic panic. The local newspaper was printing headlines like ‘Satanism Growing Worry For Police’ and ‘Satanic Cults Growing in Preserves,’” which I feel like that’s supposed to be like national forests or something, but it just makes me think about jam. 

Em: [laughs] Right. 

Sarah: Just my side note. 

Em: Like– 

Christine: I thought so too. I was like, “Are we pickling them? What’s happening?” 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Sarah: Yeah. You gotta sterilize your jars or you’re gonna get a satanic cult in there. 

Christine: [laughs] You don’t– Oh my god. Imagine. E. coli. 

Em: The de-devilish marmalade, yeah. Look out. 

Christine: Devilish. 

Sarah: So she goes on, “The combination of the media flooding households with fear-mongering headlines and Elizabeth’s extreme anxiety made hypnotherapy a disaster for her and her family. Elizabeth’s therapist ‘guided’ her to ‘memories’ of her uncle being the leader of a satanic cell.” 

Christine: [sucks in breath] 

Em: Mm. 

Sarah: “The therapist helped create so-called memories of witnessing rapes and sacrifices–“ 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Sarah: “–both human and animal. She ended up believing that her uncle was possessed by a demon–“ 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Sarah: “–and friends and neighbors from her childhood were his followers. The poor woman, who already lived day-to-day with mundane fears, such as kids choking on Barbie shoes, also had to live in a world where she believed that people she once loved and trusted had performed satanic rituals on her and anyone she knew could be a Satanist in disguise.” 

Em: Oh my gosh. 

Sarah: “The hypnosis led her to cut contact with her extended family and most of her friends. She ended up being so rattled she stopped going to work and was fired. She eventually cut contact with our family as well. I still think about her to this day and hope she got real help. Good luck to you and all your listeners. Be careful when it comes to hypnosis, and stay away from Ouija boards (those things are messed up). Leyli.” 

Christine: [laughs] Oh my god. Wow, dude. Okay, so I mean you hear about these things, right? And I guess– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: –obviously they happen, but it’s, it’s wild to hear like, “Oh, I knew a woman who went through that exact scenario.” 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, and I think that’s like one of the funny things about so much of the satanic panic is that a lot of us– is that a lot of it didn’t even rise to the level of news, you know. 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: Like you could have someone go through like very destructive and dangerous therapy as part of this bigger movement. And unless it ended up in some kind of a massive lawsuit or– 

Christine: Fair point. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –you know, it would just– There’s I think so many people out there with, with these stories. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Wow. That’s dark because it’s like you’re already vulnerable. You’re already mentally trying to find help and, and not in the best place, and then it’s like, “Oh, I know what’ll fix it.” I mean– 

Em: It’s like, “Everyone around me I can’t trust, and it, it–“ 

Christine: Oof. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: “–maybe hurt me, and–“ Oh man. 

Sarah: I mean, there are ways in which I think that the culture of the satanic panic itself came actually to resemble the kind of cult that they were looking for. And I realize I say the word “cult” like “colt,” like a baby horse, but just– I mean, I don’t know you could picture a baby horse, and it would be soothing. 

Christine: Oh, I didn’t even notice. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: I love that. I love it. 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: To the extent that there’s an Oregon accent, that’s like the only way that I can hear it manifesting um, but– 

Em: Is in “cult”? [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Really? 

Sarah: Yep. These satanic “colts,” you know, just running wild and free. 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: But I feel like, you know, especially in the, the therapy arm of it, there are, you know– there’s kind of a distinct pattern of women, you know, seeking therapy– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: –starting therapy, having a therapist who’s kind of bought in on this idea of, um, recovering memories, just like the therapist in this story, and who basically will not stop until you confirm their thesis, which is that any kind of depression or, or issues with mental health like probably just come from satanic abuse, and you should probably just produce a story about it or else you’re not gonna get better. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: And that there’s also this trend where, you know, for a lot of women who went through this, and it was overwhelmingly women who this therapy was targeted at. You would, you know, be in these long therapeutic sessions. Potentially, you would be under hypnosis, you know, not just for an hour but for perhaps several hours at a time– 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Sarah: –especially if your insurance was covering that, which it used to. 

Em: Mm. 

Sarah: Um, and you would go to groups, um, with other people who were allegedly, you know, recovering memories of satanic abuse. You would kind of compare notes and often kind of feel like, “Well, if this is happening to this other person in my area–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: “–then it must have happened to me.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: ’Cause the theory is that, you know, by definition, you don’t– you’re not in therapy for the things you remember. You’re in therapy for the things that you don’t. 

Em: Mm. Wow. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: And then often if you know– And kind of– Again, like as this letter talks about, the therapy would have this like very damaging effect on your life where you would like lose the ability to work, lose the ability to parent potentially. You were kind of being forced to spend so much time thinking about these traumatic experiences like in a hypnotic state that even if they had never actually happened, you were kind of creating the impact– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –of, of them being a part of your life. And so the women who dropped out of this therapy or who– whose insurance stopped covering it or who got, you know, dropped by their their therapists for whatever reason or stopped going to these groups, often it was the case that you would just kind of– without putting that effort into telling yourself that this is what you had been through, it just stopped feeling real, um, because it wasn’t. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Yeah. Okay. I was gonna ask that. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: I was gonna ask if those memories persisted as real-seeming or if they kind of faded. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: Well, and I think that there were also some people, um, for whom they did persist. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: I think it’s probably very personal. And there’s a, a New Yorker article that I, I, I wish I could remember the, the author of it that came out maybe ten years ago that talks about one of the effects of false confession being that if you are kind of in a situation where you are interrogated by the police long enough that you– or are told sort of– kind of in a, in a situation not too different from this type of therapy that like, “No, you– We know that you committed this crime, so you might as well confess to make it easier–” 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: –that if you were asked to tell that story over and over again and told, you know, by authority figures that contrary to what you claim, this is actually what happened, it’s possible to, to create those memories for yourself and not be able to, to get rid of them. And there are some people, um, for whom that stays very real, and some people who are able to slip out of it. But it’s also possible to believe that you committed a crime that you were physically incapable of actually committing. 

Em: That’s wild. 

Sarah: And I think that that’s just a very– maybe something that we don’t want to believe about how memory works, you know, because that’s pretty scary. 

Christine: Well, I mean– Yeah, and they talk about witness, um, you know, witness reports being very, very faulty, more faulty than people realized until they started studying it. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: And it’s like you don’t– Like your brain [chuckles] can easily switch like a perceived thought into your own reality so quickly that, yeah, that’s just like a, a slippery slope for, for– I’m glad, I’m glad that that, that sat-satanic panic has, for the most part, not become like a very, very– Well, I guess, I don’t know. Would you agree, Sarah, that it has not become like a very lasting–? Like it kind of had its moment? 

Sarah: I think that it– [sighs] I mean, it’s interesting ’cause I feel like we’re living through some form of satanic panic now. 

Christine: Fair enough. 

Sarah: But it feels very different– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: –because I think it’s like– it’s very much a politicized phenomenon, and it’s very much being used by the Right. 

Christine: Like fear-mongering. 

Sarah: And what’s nice is that we don’t have like well-meaning, you know– ’Cause in the ’80s you would have like not at all conservative but just kind of well-meaning feminists– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –who got caught up in this out of the feeling that this was the only way that we were gonna have any kind of care offered for, you know, for people who had been through sexual abuse or, or trying to prevent child abuse in the future. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: And, um, and so now it feels like it’s very much a product of the Right– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –and it’s really what we’re seeing now is kind of anytime someone criticizes you, anytime your policies seem crazy because they are– anytime you’re like needing to explain away the, um, criminal history of the current president, you can just accuse your enemies of being Satanists– 

Em: Right. Right. 

Sarah: –and that’s e-enough, I guess. It feels like it’s being used more as a Band-Aid. 

Christine: Or a Communist. Easy. 

Sarah: Yeah. Or both. 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: Why not? 

Christine: Both. Well, they’re probably synonymous. 

Sarah: Why not both? 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: What is– What do you think, um– I’m trying to figure out the best way to, to pose the question, but when do you feel like the quintessential satanic panic kind of died off and–? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Or do you, do you feel like it’s kind of just, um, maybe redefi–? No, I don’t kn– 

Christine: Like morphed? 

Em: Morphed, I guess. Because– 

Sarah: I feel like everybody who studies this has a slightly different answer. 

Em: Okay. 

Sarah: I’m sorry. What were you saying? 

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I was gonna ask if you thought it had morphed into something else– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: –but I, I guess you– 

Sarah: I, I mean– [sighs] 

Em: Politically, it has. 

Sarah: I’m sorry. I [chuckles] keep cutting you off. 

Em: No, no, no. You’re okay. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: I, I guess, uh, with everyone’s– At least in my world and in Christine’s world, we’re often surrounded by a lot of people who are like now proudly outspokenly into like, you know, witchcraft or, you know– 

Sarah: Right. 

Em: –more spiritualism and things like that. How, how did we go from satanic panic– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Interesting. 

Em: –to this like space where everyone can, you know– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Where like witchy is just an aesthetic like– Yeah, exactly. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Or like they can proclaim this stuff, and there’s no satanic panic that’s, you know, kind of pressing them away from it. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: Yeah. Well, it’s funny ’cause I just– I was in, um, kind of East Kentucky, which is where the, the show, the satanic panic show that I have out, The Devil You Know where that story kind of starts, um, because we begin with a story about this woman being chased out of town for daring to try and teach photography to teenagers– 

Christine: Oh my. 

Sarah: –because a rumor started that she was looking for blonde, blue-eyed kids to sacrifice. 

Em: [scoffs] 

Christine: Sure. 

Sarah: And it seems that that took off partly because a Patrick Swayze movie was being filmed in the area. Um– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: Oh. Hm. 

Sarah: Why not, why not draw that conclusion? 

Christine: Of course. 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: Um, and so I was like– I, you know, was in that part of the country having this feeling of like, “Wow, this is where, you know–“ I like being a stranger in town. I like being a, a woman who shows up and, you know, is doing something for the arts. And so it, it– I don’t know. To me, starting with that story feels like this kind of “it could happen to me” kind of a thing. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: And I remember going to a, a coffee shop and getting– I think actually it was like a homemade kind of version of the, uh, Halloween Alani Nu, but it was called the Witch’s Broom. So it was like a caramel and apple kind of like– 

Christine: Oh, cute. 

Sarah: –energy drink. It was very cute, and it was– It made me think about like, yeah, we’ve like commodified a witch aesthetic. We have the– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: We’re living in the era of the Stevie Nicks Barbie. So like we have sort of– 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: Witchiness certainly is doing well, you know, as, as sort of a, a vibe that, um, you know, we, we understand as part of the aesthetics of the world that we live in. But I think the metaphor that I, that I use is, um, just going back to like Stephen King’s It as a comparison, which I’m not gonna offer any spoilers– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: –but basically the idea is that, you know, sometimes, sometimes the great evil comes to town, and it doesn’t stop or die. It just takes a nice big nap. 

Em: Oh? 

Sarah: And then it comes back, and then you have to come back, and– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Sarah: –you know, reunite with, with your friends, so that’s really nice, that end part. 

Em: Oh? That’s wonderful. 

Christine: And sometimes the devil flies in on a Pog. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: You really never know what you’re gonna get. 

Sarah: [laughs] Sometimes, sometimes the Pogs will set him free. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: Yeah. It– 

Christine: Oh my god. Wow, that’s so beautiful. 

Sarah: But well– But what I think really is that a moral panic is always gonna be useful for people who are in power to stay in power, regardless of what they’ve done. 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: Right? And I think– 

Christine: Like that’ll ta– That’ll be a, a push and pull forever. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, and that’s always gonna be needed by people because I think in the ‘80s there was this– you know, especially in the early ‘80s, we were beginning to reckon in a mainstream way with the reality of child abuse and child sexual abuse– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: –and there was this implicit question of like, “Who’s doing this? And why?” And it’s like, “Well, mostly men who just are known to the child–“ 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: “–who they’re abusing, and they’re often protected–“ 

Christine: But that couldn’t be right. [scoffs] 

Sarah: “–by organized religion and not Satanism.” Because like there’s a lot of sexual abuse and like– 

Christine: Yes. 

Sarah: –that is fostered by extremely hierarchical organizations, like a church. 

Christine: It’s like projecting. It’s like, “No, look at the Satanists.” 

Sarah: Right. 

Christine: It’s like, “No, the, the call’s coming from inside the house,” you know. 

Sarah: Exactly. Yeah, so whenever the call’s coming from inside the house– And again today, right, where we have like, you know, we have a lot of rapists in the White House, like more even than in the past. 

Christine: What? Just kidding. [chuckles] 

Em: Hang on a second. [chuckles] 

Sarah: I know. I’m, I’m sorry to, to say something that no one has noticed yet. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I know. [chuckles] Awkward. 

Sarah: But it’s like– 

Em: Breaking news on And That’s Why We Drink! 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: You know, but like if, if you have like a really, really scary man as president, you have to invent the idea of even scarier people to make him seem less scary in comparison. 

Christine: Right, exactly. What are you gonna point to as the bad guy? 

Em: Yes. Excellent point. 

Sarah: Yeah, you gotta make somebody up. 

Christine: Yeah. That’s a really good point. 

Sarah: ’Cause like he’s a, he’s a very scary guy. You have to really like stretch your imagination muscles to think of something worse. 

Christine: Yeah, you gotta get creative. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, it’s a real game of like sleight of hand or redirection, so you’re not paying attention– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: –to the actual devil. 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: Um, yeah. 

Sarah: It’s, uh, it’s just to quote Wallace Shawn in The Princess Bride, “What in the world is that thing?” 

Christine: Uh! That’s so good. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And honestly, we don’t quote that movie enough. 

Em: No, and I guess this is also where we should plug your other podcast, uh, You Are Good, which is a, a movie, a movie podcast. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Well, that’s where you’re getting all your quotes from, I think, probably. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: Um, but, uh, both interests are shining in the same conversation. 

Sarah: That’s true. 

Christine: I know. It’s amazing. 

Em: Uh– 

Sarah: I think that The Princess Bride became so over-quoted by millennials that we just put it on ice. 

Christine: I think we did it too– 

Sarah: But now it’s time to take it back out.Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say I think it’s been t– it’s– Like you said with the It thing, like I think it’s time. 

Sarah: Right. 

Christine: It’s, it’s– Take a nap. It took a nap. Let’s bring it back. 

Sarah: That is like a very friendly return. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, The Princess Bride is back in Derry. That’s a good thing. 

Christine: Oh my god, Mandy Patinkin. Let’s just like [sighs] live in that space for a– Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –for a little while. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: That’d be great. 

Story 3 – Dungeons, Dragons, and the Satanic Panic of the 1980s 

Em: Well, I’ve got a– 

Sarah: Oh, lady. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –I’ve got a, uh, third story for everyone. This is from Haylee. And Haylee, uh– Let’s see what she has to say. “Hello, Em, Christine,” et al, uh, and Sarah. Um, and– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: Look at me. I’m et al. 

Christine: Et al! [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Uh, “first off, love your podcast,” and then, um, Haylee says some very nice things about us uh, and our live show in Kansas City. Um, “now on to your call for stories about satanic panic. As soon as I saw this prompt, I knew I needed to write in. I have the unique experience, uh, of– or I had the unique experience in college of having to learn about the satanic panic of the 1980s in reference to the rise of the popularity of Dungeons & Dragons.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: “I will say now brief trigger warning as the story will include references to depictions of suicide. My first year at college, we were assigned a first year seminar course where, uh, we learned about a specific topic for a sem– for a semester with the added bonus that faculty would supp– were supposed to use this class to teach students how not to fail at college, i.e. explaining deadlines, personal accountability, and planning for assignments. My class was taught by an eccentric but sweet professor who walked in on the first day of class with no shoes and a ponytail that went all the way down to his back.” You know, you know it’s gonna be a good time when that’s the teacher. 

Sarah: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: I– That’s when I’m like, I’m like locked in. I’m like, “I’ll put my phone down for this.” 

Em: It’s like, “He’s not like the rest.” Um– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: Um, “he proceeded–“ 

Sarah: He’s gonna tell you where the chanterelles are. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I’m going to his, uh– What do you call it? What’s the, uh–? Office hours, yeah. Yeah. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: 100%. He plays ping pong in there or something or– 

Christine: For sure. 

Em: –brews his own mead or something. 

Christine: It’s just bean bags in there. There’s no like real chairs. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You call him by his first name obviously. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, “he proceeded to sit cross-legged,” of course, “on the table,” of course– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –um, “at the front of the classroom and said, ‘Call me John.’” 

Christine: Oh! 

Em: Literally, did I not just–? 

Christine: You knew it. 

Em: I knew it. 

Christine: I almost said Jeff. I was close, but John. Yeah, that works. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Promise I didn’t read ahead. 

Sarah: Simple. 

Em: That was just a full– I could feel it in my bones. 

Christine: Now, wait till we get to a bean bag, then we’ll really have nailed it. Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] Uh, “‘Call me John. You can call me Professor or Doctor, but I likely won’t know you’re talking to me,” if you don’t call me John. 

Sarah: Hm. 

Em: Um, “this sets the tone for the whole class, then proceeded to show us the bridge scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: “John’s seminar focused on the theme of Analog Game Studies, where we studied any game that was not digital and pondered the ever important philosophical question of, ‘what is a game?’ and ‘what counts as a game?’” 

Christine: [chuckles] Whoa. 

Em: This guy just got a degree and said, “I’m gonna start riffing in this class.” 

Sarah: [unintelligible] 

Christine: He’s like, “I’m gonna get so high and then write a syllabus.” [laughs] 

Em: A– But you know what? You actually do take something away I’m sure from– Like he’s– It’s one of those classes where you’re like– 

Christine: Yeah, I feel like it’s, it’s a real thinker. 

Em: You’re never gonna forget him. 

Christine: Lateral thinking. 

Em: “I kid you not answering this question every class was a part of our participation grade, and the answer usually boiled down to, yes, this counts as a game.” 

Christine: [laughs] Okay. 

Sarah: Hm. 

Em: [laughs] Okay. “Which leads us into the extensively covered– or oh, which leads us into extensively covering Dungeons & Dragons for a quarter of the semester. One of the first things John had us look at was reading articles and comics on how Dungeons & Dragons caused a rise in satanic panic in the ‘80s.” 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: “Parents and religious organizations were growing more and more concerned that the act of playing Dungeons & Dragons would jeopardize someone’s soul or that they were making a contract with the devil by playing this game. This led to John assigning us a reading on a comic. And this comic depicts what a very conservative sect of Christianity believed Dungeons & Dragons was really doing: uh, D&D was poisoning and destroying young lives. And I will– I’ll now walk you through this comic. It starts with two teenage girls excitedly playing D&D, but they have to sign this mysterious and scary looking contract with a Dungeon Master that seems untrustworthy. The Dungeon Master mercilessly kills one of the girl’s characters in the campaign and does not make any attempt to soothe her when she is devastated about it.” 

Sarah: Oh no. 

Em: “The two girls go their separate ways. And cut to one of the girls finding out that the friend is now dead and reading her suicide note where the friend says she blames herself for her own character dying.” 

Christine: What? 

Em: “It was–“ 

Sarah: There’s a very good chance this is a chick tract– 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: –she’s going to say. Yeah. 

Em: It– 

Christine: This is wild. 

Em: “It was her fault that the character died, and she implied that her suicide will somehow make this right.” [gasps] Like she deserve– Okay, well, gross. “The other girl, reasonably horrified, is not doing well. Uh, but here steps in the church as a savior.” 

Christine: [laughs] Oh, good. 

Em: “She turns back– She turns her back on D&D. And the last image of this comic shows her gratefully staring at a light falling from the sky, spotlighting her, her hands clasped and gaze reverent.” 

Christine: Jesus Christ. Oh, literally. 

Em: [laughs] Literally. 

Christine: But anyway. 

Em: “My first thought after reading this was, ‘Oh my god, how did they make those jumps in logic? Did anyone actually believe this?’” 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Sarah: [chuckles] 

Em: “I stared at the page for a full minute after just, uh, having a ‘what the heck did I read?’ moment.” 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: “My classmates shared the same sentiment when we discussed it in class, and many of us had played D&D by that point–“ 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: “–as playing at least one session was a requirement of this class and–“ 

Christine: [laughs] Of course. 

Em: “–and obvious–“ This guy just wanted– just– He just needed a new campaign. 

Christine: He just needed– Exactly. 

Em: Um, “obviously, our experiences were nothing like that, and at least, I still think I have a soul.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Okay. Um, “John then shared some stories about when D&D was up and coming when he was growing up and that this type of messaging was common. It led to us having a critical conversation on how facts can be misconstrued depending on who tells the narrative. Something that is super important to remember, especially with everything that is going on in the world today. Uh, that is all my story for now. I hope to write again soon. This– Uh, and best wishes, Haylee.” So, uh, I mean, it, it blows my mind every time I, I see some– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: –sort of overly religious material finding ways to make anything evil. Um– 

Christine: It’s, it’s always about the children, which makes it so much more sinister. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Christine: Like let the children play with Pokémon cards and Pogs and Dungeons a– Like it’s the nerdiest game ever. It’s– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s silly. Like I just don’t– I don’t know. I don’t know. Sarah, you probably have a wiser take, but I’m just like– 

Em: Especially about Dungeons & Dragons. 

Sarah: Well– 

Em: I feel like that’s a huge topic in gaming and– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –it being dark. 

Sarah: Yeah. Well, and I– 

Christine: Dark. Stranger Things. 

Sarah: [sighs] Yeah, and I, I feel again like– You know, I have not– I played like very little D&D in my life. It’s just like not my kind of thing. Um– 

Em: [whispering] Me neither. 

Sarah: –not because of Satan to be clear, but just you know– 

Em: [laughs] Good. Good. 

Sarah: –we all, we all have our different ways of finding a hobby. I really, um, I really– if, if people want to know, I think it’s nice to just do a, a nice little craft and watch, um– 

Christine: I was gonna ask. 

Sarah: –The Brady Bunch Movie. Yeah. 

Christine: I was gonna ask what your actual– Yeah, yeah. I didn’t wanna– Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: So glad you said The Brady Bunch Movie, one of my top 10. 

Christine: Yeah. Excellent. 

Sarah: It’s so– I just– I, uh, I’ve been having a real moment ’cause I’m, I’m very into the movies that get– Whoever picks the free movies on YouTube is just doing a really good job, you know. 

Christine: Oh, I like that. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. Good job, Bethany. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Bethany. 

Sarah: [unintelligible] 

Christine: Meanwhile, I’m watching Investigation Discovery about Dale and just like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: Well, you know. 

Christine: You know. 

Sarah: I mean, there’s a lot of good free stuff about Dale as well. 

Christine: There’s a lot. 

Em: There’s a lot. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: There’s a lot of supply. 

Christine: There is. 

Sarah: But I– So I had, um, Adrian Daub from the In Bed With The Right podcast on, on my show a while ago talking about D&D panic specifically. And something he pointed out that I always remember is that, um, the thing about sort of panic over D&D as part of the satanic panic was that it kind of left you no way to be a good kid. 

Em: Mm! 

Sarah: ’Cause if you were like into metal or like kind of like– 

Christine: Oh, yeah! 

Sarah: –you know a kid who liked to go to concerts and party, then like the devil was gonna get you that way through rock and roll lyrics. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Sarah: And if you were like a dorky kid who just wanted to like keep to themselves– 

Christine: Find community, yeah. 

Sarah: –and like do some fantasy role-playing– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: –or like read, god forbid, some Lord of the Rings– 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: –then like that was also satanic. And, um, I think it’s very interesting that part of this was the idea that like teenagers were so stupid that they couldn’t tell the difference between fantasy and reality when in, in fact you look at these cases and you’re like, “I think the adults are the ones who can’t tell the difference–“ 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: The adults are so fucking confused. 

Sarah: “–and the kids were doing just fine.” Yeah. 

Christine: Seriously. Then they’re like, “Oh, a Dungeon Master?” And you’re like, “Please just read like one more sentence about this game.” 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: “It’s, it’s not what you think it is.” 

Sarah: Yeah. It involves having a lot of graph paper and just like– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. It’s really boring and long. 

Sarah: Just– And I, I think– Right? 

Christine: I mean, you know, I’ve had my time playing, but I’m always like [snores]. I just start being like, “Okay, I want to like do something more– I don’t know.” 

Em: It’s just playing pretend is all it is. It– 

Christine: Yeah, it’s fun, but like– 

Sarah: Right. And it’s just– 

Em: But it, but it’s like how is that, how is that evil? Like, like isn’t– 

Sarah: Doing it past the age when you’re– it’s socially appropriate, I guess. 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: But we should all be doing it for our whole lives, you know. And also, I mean, the– again, kind of getting back to our theme of projection, it’s like if I think that the devil is constantly trying to do battle with me through a Pog– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –then like I’m much more enmeshed in a fantasy world than my child who has like– 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: –you know, maybe three hours a week designated for, you know, being an elf or whatever. 

Christine: And then it’s like– Then I think about Pogs probably a lot more than any child does, which is already like, “Whoa.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: Right. 

Christine: “Find a hobby. Seriously.” 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: “Go do a craft and watch The Brady Bunch Movie.” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Sarah: ’Cause it does– It feels like Satan that like– I don’t know, and I thought about this a lot kind of in, you know, in putting the show together as like, “who is Satan?” and like for Americans specifically, or, you know, for Canadians as well ’cause we looked at really the satanic panic across North America. And I think that if you’re in a, a settler colonialist society, then Satan was very useful kind of– 

Christine: Mm. 

Sarah: –in the early days of, of North Amer– of North America. The United States and Canada being settled by, by white Europeans because you could accuse anyone who you wanted to massacre and whose land you wanted to take of being satanic– 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: –um, specifically for, you know, not having been converted, uh, to Christianity. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: And so it feels like from the beginning the United States has sort of been very reliant on Satan as a character who allows you to take whatever you want from somebody who has your stuff. You know? 

Em: Right, right. 

Christine: Yeah, and I, I like your point– 

Sarah: Or somebody who has their stuff that you would like to take from them and not worry about. 

Christine: That you want. Right, exactly. I just feel like it’s just a level of discomfort and– of like something other, right? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like, oh, if you like rock music, you’re probably like a little bit on the outskirts. 

Sarah: Right. 

Christine: If you’re playing like nerdy games, you’re not the all-American football star. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s like the– It’s just this fear. 

Sarah: Or I guess the fear of your kids liking something that you don’t understand. And it’s like– I– 

Christine: Yeah. And that’s not like gonna, you know, be the, the all-American, you know, well-rounded whatever stereotype. 

Sarah: Right. 

Em: Yeah, no. 

Sarah: Right. Yeah. 

Em: That– Fair point. 

Sarah: And then you think– Like I wonder if there was like any kind of a satanic panic for like if you were a kid who just was fulfilling all expectations and just like, you know, playing football by day and– 

Christine: Straights A’s. [chuckles] 

Em: Well, my thought, my thought would be– 

Sarah: –I don’t know, singing about Jesus by night. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] That’s satanic to Satan, um, actually. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Those are– That– The Satanists are probably up in arms about those kind of kids. Yeah. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: No, I li– I– It feels like if, if the parents didn’t understand it or, you know, it– maybe it just started with all, you know, sex, drugs, and rock and roll or something, that if it wasn’t going to church, if it wasn’t being of Christ in some way– 

Sarah: Right. 

Em: –it must– If it’s just– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: It’s either black and white. It’s either Christian or it’s just the devil. 

Christine: Or it’s anti. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Right. It’s the, you know, the old saying that idle hands are the devil’s playground. It’s like– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. There you go. 

Sarah: –people need time to let their, their thoughts wander a little bit. It’s gonna be fine, you know. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: My idle hands are just drawing on graph paper. 

Sarah: And really– And then I– It, it kind of feels like it’s, [sighs] like it’s almost assigning– It’s like saying like, “You know how you feel uncomfortable when your children are like growing up and actualizing as people and getting into things that you didn’t choose for them?” 

Christine: Meeting new people, yeah. 

Sarah: “Well, that discomfort is coming from Satan, and they shouldn’t do that.” 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. 

Sarah: “And we should control them for their entire lives, and you are in the right.” 

Christine: “Do you feel uncomfortable? Satan’s after you.” Yeah. Wow. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Yeah. No, that’s a, that’s a great point. And I guess that does– it does still seep in today in, in our everyday lives. I mean, you know, we– it seems nearly everybody who works for us seems to, [chuckles] I think, is queer. We’re queer, and we’re very big queer podcast over here. And I– 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –I, I think a lot of us are, you know, when we were coming out, it’s– if it’s not– I know I was worried about this (I grew up in Virginia) that when I came out, if someone didn’t understand it, it was just immediately unnatural and thus not of God. Like it was– It’s a very, um– 

Sarah: [sighs] Mm-hmm. 

Em: –“It just must be satanic if I can’t understand it immediately.” 

Christine: “It’s unnatural,” quote unquote. 

Sarah: Right. 

Em: Yeah. So it really is just projection. You’re totally right. Wow. 

Christine: Yeah. That discomfort. 

Em: Of–? We have another story? Uh– 

Christine: Uh, yeah. I just wanted us to sit in the discomfort of, uh, the morality panic. 

Em: I was too uncomfortable. [laughs] 

Christine: I know you were. Uh, okay, I’m gonna– [laughs] 

Sarah: Yeah, I love that. 

Christine: –I’m gonna go next. 

Story 4 – Satanic Panic in Ohio 

Christine: Um, let’s see. This one is called– Oh, good. Perfect. “Satanic Panic in Ohio.” 

Em: Ooh! 

Christine: That is where at– That’s where I’m from. Okay. This is from Faith (she/her). “Hi all. My name is Faith, and I’ve been listening for a few years now. Took me over a year to get caught up to listen to new episodes as they air. You asked for satanic panic stories, and I have a perfect example. I’m from southern Ohio near the Hawking Hills.” That is where I went on a trip with my friend in high school, and, um, I don’t know. Nothing interesting happened. 

Em: That’s beautiful. 

Christine: I’m like, “What happened there that I could say?” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Nothing. It’s just beautiful area. 

Em: A, a memory was formed. 

Sarah: I like it. 

Christine: However, it is very Trump– Trumpy up there. Um. 

Sarah: Hm. 

Christine: Okay. “I’m from southern Ohio near the Hawking Hills. Logan, which is a town at the center of the Hawking Hills region, is full of small town charm and wonderful people. Back in the 1980s, in early October, an engaged couple went missing. A few weeks later, their dismembered remains were found in a cornfield. The murder remained unsolved for years, and there was speculation of cult or satanic involvement. It was scary enough for the town to change trick-or-treat to daylight hours.” 

Sarah: Hm. 

Christine: “And they still have them in the daylight, usually the Sunday before Halloween.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: “The woman’s stepdad was tried and sentenced to death for the killings. He was then re-tried and found innocent and released. Eventually, two men confessed to the crimes, and the real culprits were brought to justice. There was no occult or satanic involvement of any kind. Just boiled down to terrible people being terrible.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: “There’s an episode of Buried in the Backyard about this case–” I– That sounds like an Investigation Discovery show. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t know if it is, but it sounds like it. 

Em: Yeah, totally. 

Christine: Uh, “–about this case, as well as an episode of Your Worst Nightmare–“ Now, I can confirm that is an Investigation Discovery show. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: “–and it’s a doozy. My mom grew up in Logan and remembers when this happened. There’s lots of interesting lore and true crime in southern Ohio. I’ll have to suggest some haunted places for Em to check out. Also I was supposed to see you in Columbus, but got COVID.” Womp. “Love you guys so much.” Okay, so this is more like a crime– a real crime occurred, which is obviously horrible. Then it got funneled– 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –into a satanic panic occult scare, and then they were like, “So Halloween’s over.” [chuckles] 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Christine: Huh. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: I wonder how many– Like was just any crime in the ‘80s just connected to satanic panic? Or like what–? 

Sarah: Hm. 

Em: What did you have to do to commit a crime and not have a satanic panic attached to it? 

Christine: It feels like if it was like an unsolved crime they would start looking that way. Is that true, Sarah? 

Sarah: Mm. 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Sarah: Yeah. I– What’s funny is that I was actually just reading about this case a couple weeks ago, and I hadn’t heard of it before, but I was kind of reading– I was preparing for, um, an American Hysteria episode and, and kind of like ended up on this tangent, um, about kind of specifically accusations of Satanism in Ohio because there was just kind of– partly because of– It’s– I mean, I don’t, I don’t know exactly why, and that was kind of part of what we talked about: that it was stickier in some places than in others. But yeah, kind of– 

Em: Mm. 

Sarah: Um, there was like– There were rumors at the time– 

Christine: Ohio tends to– Stuff sticks. 

Sarah: –that there were like a lot of witches in Toledo specifically for some reason. Um. 

Em: Oh? Okay. 

Christine: [laughs] Please. 

Em: Interesting. 

Sarah: And I hope that that’s still true, you know. But– 

Em: Yeah. I hope– Toledo represent. [chuckles] 

Christine: I hope so. I don’t know much about Toledo. [chuckles] 

Sarah: Yeah. Right. Well, and what I remember about this case is that the, the stepfather of one of the victims was, I think, initially, um, accused and convicted, not really on any basis except that he was– you know, they were, I think, a relatively new family in town. They didn’t– I think they didn’t go to church. They were kind of like an unknown quantity– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Sarah: –for the, the people in the area. And I think that kind of in a– It sort of follows the same logic that if there’s a crime that is just kind of too horrifying to sort of make sense of– And I mean, we do make sense of a lot of horrifying crimes, right? Like when, um– We, we often aren’t that shocked by, um, you know, by a husband killing a wife because we kind of have internalized that as part of the inevitable price of, of living in a patriarchy, I think. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: But if there’s, you know, something that just sort of like that we can’t fit into a narrative, even a scary narrative, then we will look to the outsider in town. And it feels like the satanic panic was just kind of a, a bigger, badder version of that same story. Um, and I think that– I believe in this case that one of the, the defense theories on appeal was “No, actually it could have– Maybe it was a cult. Did you ever think of that? So you gotta–“ 

Em: Mm. 

Sarah: “Maybe this guy was convicted of a cult’s crimes.” And so that was a case of– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –I think the satanic panic actually being somewhat useful as an alternate theory, um, in a– 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: –in a case with a very dodgy– 

Em: Sure. 

Sarah: –um, conviction that was later overturned. And so I think it’s just that we– I mean, in Portland now like I used to– I don’t do it anymore because it was, you know, raising my blood pressure too much, but I used to look at, you know, Nextdoor for, um, kind of my neighborhood broadly. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Sarah: And it was just like a lot of people freaking out over something that raccoons had clearly done, you know– 

Em: Right, right. 

Sarah: –but being like, “Some tweaker–“ 

Christine: [laughs] Oh no. 

Sarah: “–got into my backyard and threw my trash around like a raccoon would.” And it’s like maybe it’s– 

Christine: Like just like a rac– 

Sarah: –critters, you know. 

Christine: You know what’s so weird is there’s a photo of, of the guy, and he looks just like a raccoon. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: He’s even the shape of a raccoon. 

Sarah: And he’s got those glowing eyes, you know, and cute little hands. 

Em: He actually has– 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: And a tail. Yeah. 

Christine: And a tail. [chuckles] Holy shit. 

Sarah: Yeah. We’re looking for a, a– 

Em: And he sleeps in a trash can. Yeah. 

Sarah: He’s 18 inches high, and he’s fearless, but– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Be careful out there. 

Sarah: But yeah, this like– But I, you know, have kind of seen, you know, this time of, of people having a lot of anxiety, um, partly because I think there’s a lot of– you know, we’ve had a period in the past few years of a lot of propaganda about like, you know, “Don’t protect our unhoused neighbors. Just fear them and dehumanize them.” 

Em: Mm. 

Sarah: And, and then if you, you see something that, you know, probably was the work of critters um, you have this sort of boogeyman figure to blame on it. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. It’s a boogeyman. Exactly. 

Sarah: So I think that also kind of in– I think the satanic panic kind of persisted maybe in some rural parts of America for longer, partly because there’s a sense of being forgotten and unprotected, um, by government– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Oh, wow. 

Sarah: –and this feeling of “if something bad happens that we can’t explain, then if we’re not gonna be protected then we’re gonna maybe be more likely to entertain the worst possible fears.” And I think that– And also if you’re being told by authority that, you know, satanic cults are out there and that they are very active, then it’s not your fault that you’re believing someone who tells you to believe them, you know. 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: Yeah. Well, do you– And may– This might be more of a paranormal question, but, um, do you think that there was ever a layer of just like being in denial that someone you know might have committed something and just wanting to blame it on the devil making them do it or anything like that? Like, uh, I know there’s been a few– 

Christine: Oh, that definitely happened. 

Sarah: I think so. 

Christine: In true crime cases too– 

Em: Yeah? 

Christine: –where people will say like, “Oh, he– I swear he was possessed. He would never do this.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Christine: And I mean, this is just my own– 

Em: There’s also– 

Christine: –anecdotally. 

Em: There’s also the case that, uh, that we covered the– it’s literally called “The Devil Made Me Do It”. But I didn’t know if that was– 

Sarah: Hm. 

Em: –if that played into– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –a– like a broader– like anytime there was crime just to try to, you know, justify someone’s actions, like if there was c– 

Christine: Like sort of dehumanize someone to be like, “Oh, that’s the only way this could have happened” sort of? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Well, there was– Yeah. There was a, a case, I think, kind of also in, in southern Ohio, um, I believe in the ‘80s, where basically a, a, a woman was dismembered, and her legs were found separate from the rest of her body basically. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: And, and so that’s the kind of detail that just like really freaks you out and that people, you know, immediately started theorizing, “Well, I mean, of course it was a san– satanic cult that would do that–“ 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: “–because they would dismember people, and so it just makes sense.” 

Christine: The dismembering, yeah. 

Sarah: And what turns out to have been the case is that, um, the man who apparently killed her did that because he couldn’t fit her body in the trunk, and so he had to cut off part of her body in order to make it fit. 

Christine: Ugh. 

Sarah: And– 

Em: So it’s just practicality, not the devil. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Ugh. 

Sarah: And I think that’s scarier, right? 

Christine: That is scarier. 

Em: Totally. 

Sarah: Like it’s– I think it’s– ’Cause like if I’m– if my body is gonna be dismembered, then it’s like in a way less scary for me personally to think, “Okay, well it’s this cult, and they’re doing it for Satan, and it’s–“ 

Christine: It’s like a ritual. Right. 

Sarah: “–part of this ritual that they do.” And it’s like the, the height of premeditated evil– 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: –as opposed to somebody just killing you for no good reason and then for sheerly practical reasons– 

Christine: Ugh. 

Sarah: –cutting your body up to fit in the trunk of a car. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, that’s true. 

Christine: You’re right. 

Sarah: You know, like if something awful is going to happen to me, it should at least be, you know, for– 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: –because of the Prince of Darkness. 

Christine: For like some absurd reason. Right? For the Prince of Darkness. 

Sarah: And again, not because of some guy who was, you know, literally or metaphorically named Dale. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Exact– I was about to say. You just took the words right out of my mouth, yeah. 

Sarah: [laughs] The Prince of Dale. 

Em: Yeah, I mean, that, that makes sense. I, I guess if if I knew that happened to somebody, I would almost hope that evil did it because if a human does it– 

Sarah: Right. 

Christine: Right. Just like then you hear it’s like your neighbor, and you’re like– 

Em: –then you have to reconcile with like that people can do it. 

Christine: Right, exactly. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s so much scarier. 

Sarah: I guess that, you know, that so often, you know, so many horrifying crimes are committed by some guy, and you’re like, “Why?” And he’s like, “I don’t know. I lost my temper,” and you’re like– 

Em: “That can’t be!” 

Sarah: –“Jesus Christ!” [laughs] 

Em: That cannot be. 

Christine: Like that’s the– That’s Satan. He’s Satan. He’s– Yeah, it’s just scary. It’s just really freaky. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Um. 

Sarah: I think Satan is doing a lot of heavy lifting to distract us all from how scary guys are. 

Christine: Yeah! 

Sarah: And they think that, you know– 

Em: Whew. You came to the right podcast. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Sarah: –of the devil to give us something more fun to think about, but he can take a break now. We gotta deal with this. 

Christine: Yeah. Oh, I’m so happy for him. 

Em: Great points all around. Yeah. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. Well– 

Story 5 – Martensville Satanic Nightmare 

Em: Um, would you like to read the next one, number five? Sarah? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Cool. 

Sarah: Here, let me just pull this up here. These are great, by the way. 

Christine: Aren’t these wild? 

Sarah: I love– 

Em: That– That’s all Eva. 

Sarah: I love your listeners. 

Christine: Yeah, and like we put the call out a few days ago, and we got– I mean, we have so many. Eva even put some extras in here in case any– you know, we needed any extras. But like m-maybe Em, maybe we can read those someday for like a– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –Patreon or like a, um– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: –listener episode ’cause– 

Sarah: Have me back please. 

Em: Of course. 

Christine: Or yeah, you come back on and read them– 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: –because I need your input. After this, we’re gonna have to be calling you every time we get a satanic panic story. 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: I would love. Look, just, just put a, a little Satan symbol into the clouds. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: I’ll see it. 

Christine: [laughs] I just– 

Sarah: I’ll come fly over. 

Em: Oh! Like a Bat-Signal. 

Christine: Like the, the creepy little monster emoji. [Christine knocks something over next to her.] Whoops. 

Sarah: Great. All right, I’ll get– I’ll start. Um, “Hi, Em, Christine, and Eva. My name is Sandi (she/her), and I have been a listener since the beginning. I saw your Instagram post asking for stories relating to the satanic panic. I don’t know why, but I was surprised that I had a story to share. During high school (2010 to 2014), I lived in a small town in Saskatchewan, Canada called Martensville. It was a quiet and small community. It has grown a lot since, but it holds a dark history. In 1992, a Martensville mom began accusing a local woman who ran a daycare–“ 

Christine: Sorry. 

Sarah: “–of sexually abusing her child. The police began investigating, and as they did, the accusations grew and grew until suddenly more than a dozen people, five of which were police, were accused of abusing 30 Martensville children.” 

Em: Oof. 

Sarah: “These folks were charged with over 100 charges connected with running a satanic cult called The Brotherhood of the Ram, where they allegedly practiced ritualized sexual assault of children.” 

Em: Oh… 

Sarah: “It should come as no surprise that these allegations were false. The interviews with the children are found to have been mismanaged, and the hysteria was found to be connected to the hysteria happening in the US because of the satanic panic. Not all was great in the end, however, as the son of the daycare owner was found guilty of molestation.” 

Em: Hm. 

Sarah: “However, there was no evidence of sexual abuse to the scale that the locals were claiming. Um, one of the police officers charged, one of the police officers charged was John Popowich. He was a police officer from Saskatoon (a city about 30 minutes away from Martensville) who had taken an interest in the case. Because he was so interested, he ended up being accused and charged. However, when the children couldn’t pick him up in a lineup, the charges were dropped. In 2002, the government apologized and paid him a 1.3 million settlement. I’ll attach some links, including a CBC article about one of the police officers who was accused and charged. There have also been some TikTokers and podcasts who have covered the story.” 

Christine: Mm. 

Sarah: “This story is one that most, if not all, people in Martensville know. I remember as a teenager this was a common story told among friends (my friends, anyway). And having lived there, it’s hard to believe that something that crazy happened in such a quiet town. Anyway, thank you for reading. I love the show.” 

Em: [chuckles in disbelief] 

Christine: Whoa. Okay. 

Em: That's intense. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine and Em: [in unison] Wow. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: Hm. 

Sarah: What do you, what do you two think? 

Christine: [laughs] Hm. 

Em: [chuckles] Well, my first question– Well, I don’t– And not really a question to anybody, but just my first thought is I wonder how many times there were– there was a, a cry for satanic panic because there was some major crime like this? 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: And how many times satanic panic was actually– How, how– Like were there rituals actually involved? Was there quote “Satanism” involved or something dark? 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like is that ever, is that ever– 

Em: Like is it actually 0% of the time? Or how– 

Christine: Or did anybody ever hear about it and go, “Actually, I would like to participate in that?” 

Sarah: Yeah. No, it’s, it’s– 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: It– It’s 0%, right? And– 

Em: [gasps] 

Sarah: –you could make the argument that you know– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Wow. 

Sarah: –maybe somebody just hid it really well and we don’t know, and, and sure. 

Christine: Wow. 

Sarah: But it’s 0%. ’Cause the– And you know– 

Em: That’s crazy. 

Sarah: And the, the case I was just talking about with the, uh, severed legs– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –um, that was a case of a guy who, according to the prosecution– and, again, you have to take prosecutor theories with a grain of salt a lot of the time because, you know, they, they want to maintain a winning streak– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –uh, quite frequently. It would be embarrassing to lose something. 

Em: Sure. 

Sarah: Um, and sometimes you’re trying a case with kind of shoddy evidence, and you just keep going. But, um, you know, that was– the perpetrator in that case, at least according to the state, had, you know, some amount of interest in Satanism. You know, he had some black candles, which were something that was, you know, could be owned perfectly innocently, but– But like let’s, let’s just say, um, “Yeah, okay, so what if he was a Satanist? What if he killed someone for his own idea of a satanic ritual?” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: “What if that was true?” He was still acting alone. He was still committing murder for the same reason that people commit murder, which is not because he was in the grips of a larger supernatural power, not as part of some kind of a large scale ritual, but for his own– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Great point. 

Sarah: –individual emotional needs. 

Christine: ’Cause he wanted to for whatever fucking reason. 

Sarah: Because he wanted to. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Yeah– 

Sarah: Because for whatever– Exactly. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: ’Cause for whatever reason, he felt like it. 

Em: Yeah. Even if he felt compelled to– He still did. Yeah. 

Sarah: Um, and s– and in terms of sexual abuse, you know, like none of these daycare cases yielded evidence of satanic abuse. And what was tricky is that sometimes there would be a daycare where, you know, as in this case, there was evidence of some– 

Christine: Exactly. 

Sarah: –kind of, you know, kind of general like normal, um, everyday, non-satanic sexual abuse happening or, or children being abused because, you know, kids are very vulnerable– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –and these things do happen. But the idea that Satan needed to be involved, I think was weirdly, um, kind of a comfort to people, right? 

Christine: Yes. 

Sarah: Because it implies that if people aren’t worshiping Satan on a large scale, then they’re not gonna think to abuse your child. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Yeah, it’s sort of like, “This wouldn’t happen to me.” 

Sarah: And yet it’s a much more quotidian kind of thing. 

Christine: Or this wouldn’t happen in my– 

Sarah: Right. 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. 

Em: Mm. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Oof. 

Sarah: I also think that like there’s– Like our, our thinking on abuse has really grown a lot in the fa– past few decades. And I think that something we’re at least trying to recognize or that there’s a lot more opportunity for people to see is that your parents may have generally meant well and yet still behaved abusively at times. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Your parents may have been pillars of the community who weren’t secretly Satanists– 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: –and they still might have been very abusive. They still might have been very cruel to you and been able to put on, put on a good front for other people, and Satan didn’t have to be involved in any of that, you know. And, uh– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: It’s just human nature. 

Sarah: And that abuse is just– Yeah. 

Christine: No Satan needed. [laughs] 

Sarah: And then also that people who aren’t pure evil commit abuse, you know. 

Christine: True, yeah. 

Sarah: That abuse is really about, um– th– We don’t need any supernatural elements. It’s, it’s an aspect of human relationships that you can’t blame on an exterior force. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: It’s just something that we all have to work on kind of continually, and it’s not something we’re going to eradicate that easily. 

Em: I feel like that kind of goes to the, the denial of you know, you not wanting to believe that your parents or someone you know or just human beings in general could possess the ability to do dark things. 

Sarah: Right. It’s also– 

Em: Um, just being able to blame it on something else. 

Sarah: I– And I, and I think that this is something that’s really kind of pissing off conservatives – as is everything, I guess, lately. But it feels very new, this idea that like you shouldn’t actually be mean to your children, right? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Sarah: That like that’s bad for them. 

Christine: Right. It builds character. 

Em: It’s like shocking to them. 

Sarah: Yeah. Like in the ‘80s, we did kind of advocate like, “Yeah, you should be mean to your kids. Don’t be too nice to them,” you know. 

Christine: Yeah. What the heck? You want them to throw a fit in the grocery store? I don’t think so. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: You know, it’s like, “Um. Hm...” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. That’s a great point. 

Christine: Hm. 

Story 6 – Satanic Panic at the Truck Stop 

Em: Um, okay, we have– Uh, I have another one, which is long, so bear with me, everybody. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Em: But I got a feeling– If Eva put it in, it’s probably gonna be great. So this is called “Satanic Panic at the Truck Stop,” which I– 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: Great, great title. I’m already sucked in. 

Christine: [laughs] Great name. 

Em: Um, “Hello And That’s Why We Drink fans. My name is Mel (they/them).” 

Christine: “Friends,” but I like that it– you said “fans.” That’s way more fun. 

Em: Oh god, did I– 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: Eugh, Freudian slip? I hate that. Uh, hello– 

Christine: “Hello, fans!” [laughs] 

Em: “Hey, fans. Hey!” [chuckles] Uh, “Hello And That’s Why We Drink friends.” So sorry, everybody. “My name is Mel (they/them), and I’m from Chicago and a musician, uh, for a living.” Wow. Good for you. “I’m currently 33 and have been touring in metal bands since I turned 18.” 

Christine: Oh, we get the metal music. Yay! 

Em: Nice. This is gonna be good. 

Sarah: Nice. 

Em: Uh, this is gonna be good. “You can imagine I’ve had my fair share of old biddies assuming I’m Satan incarnate.” Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Wha– Is that a song lyric? That should be a song lyric. 

Em: [laughs] “Being heavily tattooed and pierced and touring around with a van, RV, or bus full of equally tattooed, long-haired, big bearded rejects for the last 15 years–“ 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “–tends to bring on that stereotype.” And by the way, I think I’d– would feel the safest in my life hanging out with those people. 

Christine: Yeah, right. In that van. Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: Um, “We had two very different experiences in the same truck stop in the middle of ‘small town hillbilly rest stop’ meets ‘wrong turn’ meets ‘deliverance-scary’ tu– Kentucky.” All that combined Kentucky. 

Christine: Okay. I got to tell you, sir. I live in Kentucky, so I’m feeling, um– And I– 

[Sarah’s picture disappears.] 

Christine: Oh no. Is she gone? 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: Is she gone on your end is what I mean? 

Em: She’s, she’s gone on my end. Yeah. 

Christine: Oh, okay. [chuckles] I was like, “Is it just me?” 

Em: Her hot spot might have gone out. 

[tech difficulty song - singing: ♪ Please stand by, we have to step away and go get wine, answer the door / We– ♪♪] 

[Sarah’s video is back onscreen as the podcast resumes.] 

Christine: I– This is where, this is where I tried to interject earlier. Um, I– Sarah, I don’t know if you know this about me, but I do live in Kentucky, so this all feels a bit targeted. 

Sarah: No, I didn’t. No. 

Christine: And I’m from Oh– southern Ohio. So I’m like, “Am I the problem?” 

Sarah: So you’re, you’re right in the thick of things. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles] I’m in the epicenter, I guess. Yeah. 

Em: And she, she grew up– 

Sarah: You know, you just got to support your local witches. 

Christine: That’s right. 

Em: She grew up in a graveyard too, so in my mind like she was just meant to be– What is it? Satan incarnate. [laughs] 

Christine: I was gonna say. Thank god I wasn’t born in the ‘80s. I probably would have been– or ‘70s, I would have been in big trouble. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: You would have had a lot of fun though. You would have just been in, in trouble all the time probably. 

Christine: [laughs] It would’ve just been sad and playing Dungeons & Dragons by myself. 

Em: Aw! [laughs] “Apparently, as I was getting out of our bus that was stopped at a fuel pump to go in to use, uh– oh, to go in to use the restroom and purchase whatever gas station filth I could fill my empty stomach with–“ 

Sarah: [chuckles] 

Em: “–a man approached our bus and met our drummer at the door and asked if we were a band and if he could check out our bus.” Eugh. 

Christine: No. 

Em: That’s a firm pass for me. 

Christine: Immediate no. 

Sarah: Mm-mmm. 

Em: “For some stupid reason, our drummer agreed.” 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: “After the small town man–“ 

Sarah: Classic drummer behavior. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Classic drummer. You don’t leave the drummer in charge of who gets in and off the bus, please. [laughs] 

Em: You know, I know like one drummer, and this is exactly their behavior, so. 

Christine: [laughs] Exactly. 

Em: I’m gonna go off all experience. Um, “After that small town man that had never been outside the city limits marveled at the amenities of our bus that might as well have been a high-tech spaceship to him–“ 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “–he pulled out two giant gallon freezer bags full of weed and ‘gifted it to us–‘“ 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “–as he wished us ‘well on our travels.’ And he said, quote, ‘he would be praying for a safe return.’” 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: “For any normal person, they might have been completely freaked out. But for four wannabe rockstar band members, two crew people, and a merch girl, two freezer bags full of free drugs made us ignore the strangeness of the encounter.” 

Christine: Yeah, that is– Now, that is how Satan’s gonna get in there. He’s gonna say, “Free weed!” And like, you know. 

Em: Literally, he’s– 

Sarah: [unintelligible] that it’s a freezer bag especially ’cause those are more durable. 

Christine: Yeah, the f– the freezer bag? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like that– Those are expensive. 

Em: This is– 

Sarah: That’s true. 

Em: You’re totally right. This is how the devil would trickle in, and– 

Christine: And it’s gonna work. 

Em: –not even trickle in. Kick the door down because– 

Sarah: Hiding under all the weed was a Pog. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Ah! It made– The drummer let it on the bus. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Well, “The satanic panic doesn’t begin until I finished, uh, peeing in the bathroom. I got out to wash my hands, and a woman looks at my heavily tattooed body, stretched ears, and pierced up face, and, uh, she looked like she’d seen the devil. I took my time washing my hands, pulled my wallet out to count some money for the snacks I’d already purchased in my mind, and continue to dawdle before I had to be stuffed on the bus, uh, on route to Florida for the foreseeable future. The woman then exits her stall, which she’d been mumbling in (which I later realized–“ 

Christine: Praying. 

Em: “–she was praying).” 

Sarah: Mm. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: “I was wearing a shirt from one of my favorite death metal bands, Vital Remains–” Love that. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “–which had the world’s ‘Old School Death–‘ or had the words ‘Old School Death Metal’ on it in giant letters. This old holier than thou bitch–“ Oh my gosh. 

Sarah: [chuckles] 

Em: “–started the conversation by saying, ‘I noticed your shirt mentions death and would like to let you know that death is not the answer. Death comes when God intends, and it’s important to know where you’re going.’ I responded–“ 

Sarah: Well, based on that, death is the answer, but yeah, sorry. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: That’s literally– What are you talking about? That dea– 

Em: Death is certainly the guarantee of it all. 

Christine: Death is literally the only thing we all have in common. Okay? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Like that’s the only thing. 

Sarah: Also nobody loves death more than Christians who are like just see it as part of their five-year plan. 

Christine: That’s all they talk about. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: 100%. 

Christine: Ugh. [sighs] 

Em: “I responded by telling her that I thought I would come back here to this very truck stop when I die because they had the freshest hot dogs and cleanest bathrooms of any of the truck stops I’ve ever been to.” 

Christine: There. See? 

Sarah: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: That’s how you disengage. That’s how you deescalate. Okay? You go, “Well, you– These hot dogs are the best. I’ll come here. This is my heaven.” [laughs] 

Em: Well, “Then the Jesus Junkie asked if she could pray over me–“ 

Christine: No. 

Em: “–to which I agreed.” 

Christine: What?! 

Sarah: Wow. 

Em: Uhh, I don’t know what I would do either. I’d be like, “Just don’t hurt me.” 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: No! I’d be like, “No.” 

Em: “I know–“ 

Sarah: That is hard to say no to. 

Christine: It is. I mean, I’m– I talk big game, but like in the moment– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: –yeah, the panic. Yeah. 

Em: I mean, it’s so jarring. I’m like, “What other jarring thing could you do next if I say no to you?” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, “I know what a normal prayer is as I grew up very strict Southern Baptist for the first 18 years of my life– 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: “–and have been prayed over many times. This–” 

Sarah: Mm. 

Christine: Oh! So you’re like, “This is old news to me.” Okay, okay. [laughs] 

Em: [chuckles] It’s like, “Whatever. Get in here. The water’s fine.” 

Christine: “Come on. Yeah.” 

Em: “This was not a normal prayer though.” 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: “This woman proceeded to do what I would explain as a ‘don’t do this at home learned– self-learned exorcism.’” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Sarah: No… 

Christine: Uh-oh. 

Em: “I, I let her go on for about three minutes before my stomach really started to rumble for one of those jalapeño tort– tornado roller grill abominations–“ 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: “–so I had to interrupt, uh– I had–“ “Father Bitch Face” is what we’re calling her now. [laughs] 

Christine: Whoa! 

Em: “–and let her know–“ 

Christine: These are all really good lyrics. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: I feel like we got to keep these in the, in the line, lineup. 

Em: Clearly someone in heavy metal who is ex-Southern Baptist is like– 

Christine: Yeah, it does fit. Yeah. 

Em: It feels like the name “Jesus Junkie” should be said as a like a scream-o kind of song. 

Christine: That’s gotta be on the shirt too. 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: Like “Jesus Junkie” and then the death– Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. “She reached in her bag and handed me a Bible and told me Jesus is the only answer. I told her I’d keep that in mind the next time I was invited on Who Wants to be a Millionaire?.” 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: Quick. Quick with it. 

Christine: [laughs] Wow. 

Em: “I walked back to our bus with my new Bible, realizing that woman truly thought I was evil–“ 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: “–when I was just on my bus smoking free gas station weed, reading YA vampire romance novels–“ 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “–listening to podcasts, and forcing drunk band members to play Battleship with me at 4 a.m. I am far–“ 

Sarah: Podcasts are pretty evil, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] 

Em: Uh, “I am far from satanic, but not according to this woman. That night, we all signed the cover of [laughs] the Bible and added our own artwork to the cover and sold it at our merch table for $50.” [laughs] 

Christine: [gasps] 

Sarah: Fantastic. 

Em: “It sold out within 20 minutes of the doors being open after our merch girls started telling people the story.” 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: “So the moral of this story is: Don’t judge a book by its cover; just say no to bathroom exorcisms; and mind your own business if you see someone who doesn’t align with your beliefs or lifestyle.” 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: Holy shit. [laughs] 

Em: The end. 

Christine: Holy shit. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Mel, what in the world? 

Em: Yeah. Being, you know, what feels I’m sure in their mind it is with the best intentions. However, nothing feels more evil to me than someone thinking they have to pray over me. I’m like– 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –I cannot be the scariest thing you’ve ever seen. 

Christine: Yeah. It’s l– It’s like such a slight. It’s like, “Excuse me?” Like find someone else to pray over. 

Em: Well, it’s just like– 

Christine: Or is it a compliment? Is it like I’m so badass that I’m scaring these old– You know? 

Em: Yeah, but in a world of satanic panic– 

Christine: Fair enough. 

Em: –I’m just like I, I can’t possibly– There has to be something more evil in your mind. Like if I’m it, then like first you have– you haven’t seen much of the world, but also like– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: I don’t know. I think it’s, it’s so jarring to me. Again, I grew up in Virginia where that was like weirdly normal– 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: –for people to just kind of corner you and be like, “Oh, I’m gonna pray for you.” 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: “And now I will be–“ I don’t know “–the one that cures you or, you know, is–“ you know. It’s just, it’s just such a weird feeling. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And I, I wonder when that became normal, the just approaching people and saying things to their face like that– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: –um, especially if satanic panic– I– And tell me if I’m wrong, but I imagine the ‘70s is when it kind of began, the end of the ‘70s. Um, I always– 

Sarah: Yeah, well– 

Em: I know they say ‘80s/‘90s, but I feel like the sex, drugs, rock-and-roll thing is kind of what launched it. 

Sarah: Totally. 

Em: Um– 

Sarah: Yeah. And also I guess and kind of like the the rise of, uh, kind of, I don’t know, technology-assisted evangelism I guess where we had the beginning of televangelism and sort of– 

Em: Mm. 

Sarah: –this kind of like newly developing branch of Christianity that needed something to do. Um, and I always bring up how Lindsey’s Satan Is Alive and Well on Planet Earth, which came out in the ‘70s and is about like, “You know, when your kids are doing macramé and learning about astrology, that’s actually part of Satan’s plan–“ 

Christine: That’s right. 

Sarah: “–to get them used to supernatural-type stuff.” 

Em: I– 

Christine: They’re weaving his blanket right there out of macramé. [laughs] 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: J– I mean, [sighs] it’s– And also I know they say that satanic panic is the ‘80s and ‘90s, but like weren’t the parents of the kids from the ‘80s and ‘90s kind of doing like the Woodstock thing and all that? 

Sarah: Hm. 

Em: Like don’t– Weren’t they kind– It feels a little hypocritical that all of a sudden we’re saying– 

Sarah: Yeah. Or they were, you know, from the mainstream that felt threatened by that and that this was kind of the tide that– ’Cause I think what we’re living through now is really backlash to the gains that, you know, have been made in– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –in women’s rights and, and also I think I, I, I talk about the, the satanic panic being a backlash to women’s lib, but I think it was just as much a backlash to gay liberation, you know– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: –and this thing that we’re– we saw in the early ‘80s and, you know, with the, the failure of the passage of the ERA around that time too. And then kind of what– It feels like it mirrors what we’re living through now where if marginalized groups make really minuscule gains in terms of civil rights that gives, you know, the, the unnecessarily freaked out middle an excuse to panic. 

Christine: It’s like an emboldening. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: It like emboldens people, and they feel like, “Oh, well, I have the right because–“ 

Sarah: Yeah. ’Cause it’s Satan. 

Christine: “–society’s on my side, and that’s Satan.” 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Right, right, right, right, right. 

Sarah: And I feel like it’s, it’s, uh– I think it scares people to just sort of, you know, see somebody enjoying what they think that they aren’t allowed to enjoy, right? 

Em: Oof. 

Sarah: And if somebody’s like going around on a bus– 

Em: Preach. 

Sarah: –getting to see different parts of America, like getting cool tattoos, and like singing badass-sounding songs, and having a band, and like getting– 

Christine: Smoking weed. Yeah. [laughs] 

Sarah: –free weed from random guys. Yeah. Reading vampire romance. Like these are all fun things that, you know, if you feel that you’re inhabiting a branch of religion that doesn’t allow– 

Christine: Yeah. It restricts you, yeah. 

Sarah: –you to enjoy life that way then you have to, you know, brand that as, as evil, I guess. I have never been prayed over yet, and, um, I, I hope I get to avoid it. I do not know how I would respond. I mean– 

Em: It’s odd when it happens. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: You just kind of stand there, and then when they’re done it’s like I think they think you’re going to like transform in front of them into like Jesus himself. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: And I just– 

Christine: They’re waiting for you to like float or something. 

Sarah: It’s like a stranger asking you if they can like Q-tip your ears, you know? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. It feels so invasive. 

Sarah: It’s just like, “We don’t know each other.” [laughs] 

Christine: It’s like, “This is my aura. Get the fuck out of here.” 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: And I, I think if it– You know, I don’t know what other feelings I’m supposed to be experiencing from it, but I ne– I never grew up Christian. I was just surrounded by a lot of Christians– 

Sarah: Mm. 

Em: –who weren’t afraid to kind of be all up in my face. And I, I– It was just more of like an awkward silence. It’s like when people are like singing “Happy Birthday” at a restaurant to you– 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: –and you’re just kind of like waiting for it to be over. 

Christine: You’re like waiting for it to end. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: And then when it does end, you’re like, “Thank you. I don’t know what’s– I’m supposed–“ 

Christine: You’re like, “What do I say? How do I exit?” Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: That’s kind of how it always felt where I was like, “Do you think that this, this was gonna fix me instantane–?” I don’t know. 

Sarah: Right. 

Em: They– It, it was always odd. 

Sarah: Like, “What, what do you want?” You should just do a little twirl and be like, “Look at that.” 

Christine: I feel like if that happens again– 

Sarah: “I can twirl again.” 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Like if that happens again, Em, you should really like jump and be like, “I haven’t been able to jump in 30–“ You know, like do something dramatic– 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: –and be like– make them think that they’re like, you know, holy. 

Em: One, that’s hilarious. But two, I feel like that– is that not how a lot of the exorcism stories I’ve covered happened? 

Christine: [chuckles] Right. 

Em: Where it’s like you feel compelled to react to people praying over you. 

Sarah: Right. Right. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, I mean, when I say it, you know, always– It’s only happened I think twice in my life, but it was still two times too many. Um– 

Christine: Too many times. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Pardon me. Yes. 

Em: Uh, no, but it’s, it’s so weird to just like, yeah, be threatened by the way that somebody lives, and it just happens to be categorically different than what you were taught means success. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Like it’s just– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: –oh, well, she smokes you know– Or what were their pronouns? I think they were they/them. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: They smoke weed, and they’re just going to bed late, and they’re just hanging out, and for some reason, that’s ungodly simply because it’s not what you do. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: It’s just i-insane to me. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: But I think it’s– Yeah, I think, I think Sarah made the good point too of like it’s a, a– it’s like a l– a reactive thing to– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –“I don’t get that. I don’t get to do f– the fun.” 

Sarah: Mm. Right. 

Christine: “I have to restrict myself. So why do you get to run around looking like that?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “And why do you get to be happy looking like that playing, you know, playing battleship?” [laughs] Whatever the fuck. 

Em: It’s just jealousy. 

Sarah: Right. 

Em: And it’s also like– There doesn’t have to be jealousy. You could get on the bus, babe. You can hang out with us. It’s fine. [laughs] 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: You’re making it hard on yourself. 

Christine: I think it’s, I think it’s bigger than that though. I think it’s like the structure of it. But yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: [sighs] 

Sarah: I also– This is like a, a side note, but I like recently rewatched, um, Saved. Do you remember that movie? 

Em: No. 

Sarah: The Jenna Malone movie from like 20 years ago? 

Christine: I don’t remember. 

Sarah: And it was so kind of like I don’t know Sundance kind of satire of the Christian right at the time. And it’s about like what if you were so devoutly Christian that you decided to have sex with your gay boyfriend to teach him to not be gay? 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Sarah: And then of course that doesn’t work, and he’s sent to conversion camp. 

Christine: Oh! 

Sarah: And you are secretly pregnant– 

Christine: Oh! 

Sarah: –and your best friend, um– 

Em: Saved it is, you said? 

Sarah: –Mandy Moore, is trying to sabotage you. 

Christine: Em’s like, “Let me–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Em’s like pausing The Brady Bunch Movie and being like– 

Em: [laughs while googling] Saved. 

Sarah: Exactly. Yeah, it’s a– It’s great. It’s a, a really a, a lovely movie, and something that struck me revisiting it is that, um, it tells a story of like Christian teenagers who kind of– who go against what they’re taught to do but for good reasons and kind of at the end of the day come around to this idea of like– I think the line that Jenna Malone has is “if God wanted us, wanted us all to be alike, then why did he make us so different,” you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Aw. 

Sarah: And this idea that we’re living– especially in this moment where it feels like religion is being– and Christianity specifically, is being co-opted by people who aren’t really acting very Christian. It’s kind of turned into a, a wealth accumulation cult if anything. 

Em: 100%. 100%. 

Sarah: And I feel like it’s– I also just like– I don’t know. I want to take this little moment with, with you here to say that I don’t think that that’s fair. And I think that if– I don’t know. If anyone who’s listening feels alienated from their faith, um, by the bad behavior of people who seek to represent it, then they don’t, they don’t get to do that, you know. 

Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Beautiful. 

Em: We– 

Christine: Beautiful. 

Story 7 – Satanic Panic in Alabama 

Em: There is one quick one left if you wanted to read it, Christine. 

Sarah: Yeah, let’s do it. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Oh, okay. Here I go. Oh. Oh, I’m not in Ohio. 

Em: It’s just your turn. That’s the only reason I– 

Christine: I’m not in Ohio anymore. I’m in Alabama. 

Em: Oh! 

Christine: Okay, sure. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: This should be interesting. “Satanic Panic in Alabama.” So this is from Beth. “Hello to all the And That’s Why We Drink crew, family, pets, and inanimate objects. I’m excited to share my satanic panic story with you. It’s 1988.” Picture this. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “It’s 1988. And my rebellious older cousin, Susan, is–“ [chuckles] Susan. “My rebellious older cousin, Susan, is living with our grandparents in rural Alabama. They lived on ten wooded acres that backed up to a national forest. It is 20 miles to the nearest grocery store, that kind of rural area. Our grandparents are gone for the weekend, and Susan decides to have a couple friends over. After sunset, they’re all sitting on the back deck smoking… something… when–“ 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Out of a freezer gallon bag. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: By the way, I’m sorry. I meant to mention this earlier. I really thought that guy was gonna be the problem, right? He’s getting on the bus? 

Sarah: Me too. I’m glad that all worked out. W 

Em: Well– 

Christine: What a red herring. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: That’s also the moral of the story, isn’t it, though? 

Christine: True. 

Em: Like the scary one– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: –is actually like the homie, and like– 

Christine: Right. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: –the one who should be the, the quote “good person” in the story is like actually the scariest. 

Christine: No, you’re so– Exactly. And it’s like– At first, it’s like, “Well, of course don’t let Dale–“ I almost said Glenn. “–Dale on the bus.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And it’s like, “No, this Dale just wants to look at your cool–“ 

Sarah: Sometimes Dale’s got free weed. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Sometimes Dale’s like my stepdad who just– Well, not with the free weed, but like just wants to check out the engine or whatever the fuck is going on in this bus. 

Em: Yeah. 

Sarah: Yep. 

Christine: Yeah. Okay, sorry. Side note. Let’s see. So they’re smoking something when they hear it. “When they hear it. Chanting.” 

Sarah: Mm-mmm. 

Christine: “And it’s coming from the wooded area behind the house. They wait a few minutes, and the chanting isn’t going away. It’s getting louder.” 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: “They step into the house and lock the door. They can still hear it even from inside the house. ‘Devil worshippers,’ they whisper to each other.” 

Em: That’s a leap. 

Christine: “They debate on calling the police, weigh whether or not they’re sober enough to do so.” Right. ’Cause then you gotta– Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: The smell, etc. 

Em: “Nothing to see here, officer.” Yeah. 

Christine: “Nothing to see. Don’t look in my freezer.” Uh, okay. “Weigh whether or not they’re sober enough to do so. Outside, the chanting continues. They’re three teenage girls alone in the middle of nowhere, Alabama, so they decide to call the police. Miraculously, the cops show up quickly. Susan and her friends meet the cops out front and take them back while the chanting is still going on.” 

[faint siren begins in distance and grows louder] 

Christine: Oh my god, there’s like a siren in the background. 

Sarah: Oh, yeah. That’s from me. Yeah. 

Christine: But I love it. It sounds like a sound effect. 

Sarah: Yep. That’s the ambience. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Now, Em, start chanting. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] “They all stand in silence, listening. The officer asks if this is what Susan has been hearing, and she confirms it. The officer nods, pauses, and laughs a bit before saying, ‘That’s frogs.’” [laughs] 

Sarah: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “‘That’s frogs. You’re hearing bullfrogs down at the creek.’ Thanks, satanic panic. It was not in fact ‘devil worshippers.’ It was frogs.” The end. 

Sarah: That’s fantastic. 

Christine: Frogs on Pogs. [laughs] 

Sarah: And can I just say I find frogs pretty scary. 

Christine: They are scary. [chuckles] 

Sarah: I think if they’re little, they’re cute, but a big frog? Like do not ever come near me with a big frog. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: Or any frog to me. I don’t need a single one of them. Um– 

Sarah: Thank you. 

Em: What– 

Sarah: So many people are confused by that stance, but I really– Right? They’re just– 

Em: No– 

Christine: They jump. 

Sarah: Their back legs are too strong. If they’re a little bit bigger, they could overpower us, you know. 

Christine: For real. 

Em: Their tongues are like a mile long. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Em: They barely blink. I don’t like that they– I don’t know where they’re looking all the time. 

Christine: They apparently sound– 

Sarah: Are they fish? Are they on the land? 

Christine: Are they fish? 

Sarah: You don’t know. 

Christine: Nobody knows. 

Em: Yeah. They can breathe anywhere. There’s no safe spot. Um– 

Sarah: [chuckles] 

Christine: They have eggs. 

Em: Ugh. I can’t even think about it. 

Christine: Red flag. 

Sarah: Yeah. You’ll never escape the frog. God, that’s a good story. 

Christine: Yeah, that’s amazing. I love when Eva ends it on like a punchy little, little joke. 

Em: But what a good message. 

Sarah: And also you know what? 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: I feel like so many of these stories depend on what kind of a, a random cop that you get because– 

Christine: True. 

Sarah: –if you had gotten a different guy who was like, “I don’t know what frogs sound like, and I’m willing to make an investigation out of this. Let’s get into it. Let’s do a search.” 

Christine: Fair point. 

Em: Or– 

Sarah: “Let’s get a– an earth mover out here.” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: “Or he’s got a, a Dale with a good head on his shoulders.” 

Christine: Thank god. 

Em: Or it could be another cop who also whispers “devil worshippers,” and then all of you are scared, you know. [laughs] 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Christine: Exactly. 

Em: Wow. Okay. Well, that was a great one to end on. Um, thank– 

Sarah: That was perfect. 

Em: Thank you so much for coming on and, you know, joining our listeners’ episode. 

Christine: Humoring us and adding actual like, uh, factual information and– 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Real takes. 

Sarah: No, this was so fun. 

Christine: Yeah, this was really– real, real hot takes. 

Sarah: And I just– I love your listeners, and like– I don’t know. Let’s like have a moment of appreciation– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Sarah: –for all the random Alabamians who said, “It’s frogs.” 

Em: [laughs] Yeah. 

Christine: [laughs] I love that the cop laughed a little bit too. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: Like that’s got to feel good. Like, “Oh, I’m getting called out. These teenagers–” And it’s like, “Ah, it was all just a good laugh. Now let’s go home.” 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: I don’t know. Something very– 

Sarah: And don’t you think based on the, the time that he had a little mustache? 

Christine: Oh, for sure. 

Sarah: Just a little one. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You got to believe he had the mustache. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Christine: For sure, for sure. Oh, man. I love it. Well, thank you, Sarah. Really appreciate it. Do you mind pitching your show one more time so everyone can go check it out? 

Sarah: Yeah, of course. Yeah, please check it out. We don’t have any frogs in it– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Thank god. 

Sarah: –which is maybe a plus or a minus. Just wanted you to know. 

Christine: Green flag. 

Em: [laughs] 

Sarah: So it’s called, uh, The Devil You Know. It’s out from CBC Podcasts. We’re gonna have all the episodes out, um, in the next couple weeks, or you can, you can listen to them all, or you can listen to them very slowly. We have bonus episodes. You can listen however you want. It’s wherever you get your podcasts, and you can also listen to my show, You’re Wrong About, where we’ve talked about, about the satanic panic quite a bit over the years as well. But never a good frog story like this one. This was a first. 

Em: No. 

Sarah: And I just loved this. 

Christine: Did you know I saw you live, Sarah? 

Sarah: No? 

Christine: I saw you live. I saw You’re Wrong About live. And I br– 

Sarah: Where was that? 

Christine: Um, [sighs] I was with Lisa Lampanelli. We went and saw your show. 

Sarah: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: Where were we? 

Sarah: I remember that show. Was that in Philly? 

Christine: Philly? Yes. 

Sarah: Yeah. Oh my god. 

Christine: Yes. It was so fun. It was so fun. 

Sarah: That makes me so happy. 

Christine: So anyway, yeah, I, I encourage everyone to go check it out. 

Sarah: Yeah, that was a great show. 

Christine: It’s a, it’s a great show. It’s a great podcast, and it’s a great live and, you know, all the things, so. 

Sarah: Yeah, we got to do those again. Well, it’s– 

Christine: It’s an honor. 

Sarah: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, and, uh, let’s uh, let’s listen to more frogs sometime soon. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Let’s not. 

[all laugh] 

Christine: Let’s listen to some satanic chanting. Okay? 

Sarah: Yes. 

Christine: Yeah, I’ll just leave at that. 

Em: Yeah, I feel safer there. 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] Me too. 

Sarah: Let’s go tramping around in the forest. We’ll find something good. 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Beautiful. Yeah, come to Kentucky. We got lots of it. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Em: Alright. 

Sarah: Alright. 

Em: And, uh, happy December and happy 2026, everybody! ’Cause next time you hear a listeners’ episode– 

Sarah: Wow. 

Em: –from us, it’ll be next year, so. 

Christine: Ah! 

Em: Happy early new year. Bye! 

Christine: Sounds good. Bye! 

Sarah: Bye. 

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