E463 The Santa Dilemma and Our Haunted One-Man Show

TOPICS: THE DUMAS BROTHEL, ERIN PATTERSON AND THE MUSHROOM MURDERS

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Welcome to episode 463 where we’re open to any and all suggestions regarding how to handle the trust issues surrounding Santa! Then we distract ourselves from holiday stressors with Em’s haunted tale of the Dumas Brothel in Butte Montana. Christine covers the absolutely wild case of Erin Patterson and the Mushroom Murders. And please tell us if you can hear the cursed door slamming in the background of Christine’s audio… and that’s why we drink!

Check out the extremely creepy video Em showed Christine during the episode here! (go to the 35 min mark)

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Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: [singing] ♪ Christmas time is here / Hah-sa-fwah sa-fwah / [chuckles] Hah-sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah / sa-fwah sa-fwah sa-fwah ♪♪ 

Em: Fucking incredible. 

Christine: [laughs] Oh, just so annoying. Wow. Anyway, merry Christmas. 

Em: Merry Christmas, everyone. 

[tech difficulty song - singing: ♪ Please stand by / We have to step away / and go get wine, answer the door / We– ♪♪] 

Em: Oh, Christine. 

Christine: Oh, Christine. 

Em: What’d they say? “My captain, my captain”? My Christine, my Christine. 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: Um, how you doing? 

Christine: Listen– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I am. 

Christine: Does that answer your question? [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. Um, out of ten, how you feeling? 

Christine: No, I’m good. I’m like a six or seven. It’s– The weather’s gloomy. I’m just like meh, you know? It’s like cold. I don’t know. I’m okay. I’m okay. How are you doing though? 

Em: Um, I would love to trade weather with you. Um– 

Christine: Mm. Mm-hmm. You can have it. 

Em: I wish. I wish we could do that. Um, I– How am I doing? I’m all right. I’m– I am truly running on steam here. I got barely any sleep. 

Christine: [sucks in breath through teeth] 

Em: Um, I got beyond invested in [sighs] these notes. Um, and I r– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: And of course, it’s always this fucking way. I should, I should know by now almost 500 fucking episodes in that– 

Christine: Especially because last night I said, “Hey, Em, tomorrow there might be a snow day. So I want to warn you in advance that it’s– Like we might not be able to record because Blaise is out of town, and if I have a snow day, I’m stuck with Leona all day.” I shouldn’t say stuck with, but you know what I mean. Like stuck with a four-year-old all day. [laughs] 

Em: I understand. Don’t worry. 

Christine: And I said, uh, “So I’m not sure,” and then I fell asleep before I saw your text that was like, “Oh, do you want to make the call now?” And I was like, “Oops.” So you didn’t even know whether we were recording ’til like an hour [laughs] before recording. 

Em: But the mystery is what keeps the, the dopamine high. 

Christine: But you really committed to the notes, man. I was– I’m impressed. Okay. 

Em: Well, I was trying to think of something– This is what I was meaning by like “it always happens this way” is that I’m always trying to shoot for like, “I’m just gonna do a small– a short episode this time–“ 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “–so like let me just do like a quick round of notes.” 

Christine: That’s how it s– that’s how it begins. 

Em: And then it’s always the longest fucking set of notes I can find. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And what’s interesting is that– This is a good sign. This is how you know it’s gonna be a good story is that like I didn’t even care if we were recording or not. I just got rabbit holed into this topic. 

Christine: Yeah, I love when that happens. Yeah. 

Em: But I really– There is way too much content, um, especially on YouTube, that I was– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Good luck to me. It was never gonna happen, being able to see every single thing that’s ever happened. And nobody wants to hear me report on every second either, um, of what every person– 

Christine: I beg to differ. I promise you there are those people out there. But– 

Em: Well, y– I’m, I’m gonna make people medium happy today because it’s– it is a lengthy one, but it’s all good. And actually, I have YouTube to thank because all of the sources were like– had nothing to do with ghosts. It was all history-based, and only YouTube gave me what I actually wanted, which was the real meat, so. 

Christine: Finally. 

Em: Anyway, I’m happy about that, but I am extremely tired, so I am looking forward to my nap after this. And, um, thank you for asking. The reason I drink– I don’t know if you actually asked that or not yet, but– 

Christine: I’m asking mentally in my head, so yeah. 

Em: Hey, big news, everybody. Um, I– We found one of Hanky’s brothers– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and we have a playdate tomorrow. 

Christine: How did I know that’s what you were gonna say? You said “big news,” and I went, “Oh my god. Hank has a family.” 

Em: Well, ’cause I’m certainly not the one that’s gonna be like, “Oh, you know, some other big milestone.” It’s always gonna be the dog. 

Christine: I guess so. I guess it has– probably has to do with Hank. Wow. Wait. So– Sorry. Say again. So you found Hank’s brother, and– What did you say? You’re gonna meet him? 

Em: Well, yeah. He has a playdate tomorrow with his– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Well, we think it’s his brother. I guess, genetically they’re– It could be his grandfather, his uncle, or a sibling. 

Christine: [laughs] His grandfa–? Oh my god. Hank found his grandfather. [laughs] 

Em: Which like, by the way, this dog does look a little older. It could be his grandfather. I’m not sure. 

Christine: I mean, maybe. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Yeah. I love when they’re like, “Oh, his half-brother or cousin or–“ I’m like, “Wow, this is quite a family tree that dogs have.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It is like an immediate family member. Um, the h– I think– 

Christine: Oh my god. I’ve never found one for Gio like that was that close of a match. That’s awesome. 

Em: Well, Hank, um, has some breeding, uh– like breeders– breeder breeding in his past, and so he has– 

Christine: Oh… 

Em: –about 50,000 siblings. 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: Um, but they– He only has two who are local– 

Christine: [gasps] Wow. 

Em: –and one of them will not get back to me. So if your name happens to be Dash and you have a Bernese Mountain dog named Oakley, fucking message me back. 

Christine: Okay, I love that I thought Dash was the dog. Okay, go on. 

Em: I honestly don’t know which one is which– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –[laughs] but I’m pretty sure– 

Christine: They’re both applicable, yeah. 

Em: If your name’s Oakley and you have a Bernese Mountain dog named Dash, uh, get back to me also. 

Christine: Named Dash. I mean, odds are– could be the same. Yeah. 

Em: And if neither of you are related to my dog, the two of you should meet up. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, clearly. 

Em: But so this one uh, uh– Oh my god. Of course I, I need to know his name for this exact moment. Um, please hold. Uh, his name is Herbie– 

Christine: Aw. 

Em: –the dog. The dog, not the person. Um, and I messaged them– 

Christine: Herbie and Hank? I mean, come on. 

Em: I know. Come on. So Oakley/Dash (I don’t know which one it is), um, that is like his little brother. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: I, I actually don’t know– On the website, it says that Oakley/Dash is his like actual half-sibling– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –but then it says that Herbie is his grandfather or uncle or sibling, and we’re not sure. But Oakley/ Dash and Herbie are full-blood siblings. 

Christine: Ohh– 

Em: So I don’t know the, the science there. 

Christine: –so then it would probably be a sibling, yeah.. 

Em: Right? It feels like– 

Christine: Right? 

Em: –we’re– There’s a title there that is important. I just don’t know what it is. 

Christine: That feels like one of the GATE program tests. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like “If Herbie and [chuckles] his brother are related– are siblings–“ Oh my god. 

Em: And then they make you drink a weird pink drink and go into a, a bus where you listen– 

Christine: Yeah, then they’re like, “Just– Now lay down on the ground.” [laughs] 

Em: Anyway, I’m very excited. Um, I’m not totally loving the idea of like having to socialize with a stranger alone for like maybe one to two hours– 

Christine: Where are you meeting? 

Em: –in a random park. 

Christine: Oh, a park. 

Em: In a park. 

Christine: Okay, that’s good. 

Em: But also like an hour away ’cause he lives, he lives like an hour and a half or two hours away, and so I tried to find a spot in the middle. So it’s like a 45 minute commute, so. 

Christine: Do you think they’ll know they’re related? [laughs] That’s like the dumbest question. 

Em: No, I’m wondering too. That’s half the reason I’m going. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: ’Cause I’m like, “Will they care?” 

Christine: I’m fascinated. 

Em: “Or no?” Yeah. Um, anyway, that’s why I drink because I’m trying to– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –reunite my baby with his family. 

Christine: Oh my gosh, this is quite a situation. You should TikTok this so I can watch it. 

Em: Thank you. I, uh– The other fun fact is he does have a sibling in Norway. Would you like to know what that sibling’s name is? 

Christine: Finn. I have no idea. 

Em: The King of Hell. [laughs] 

Christine: Hello? What? Are you serious? 

Em: [laughs] That’s one of Hank’s brother’s names, yeah. 

Christine: What if that was the owner’s name and you got them mixed up? [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] No, I guess in Norway there’s a place called Hell. 

Christine: Oh, that’s right. There is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: And so they named their dog The King of Hell. Um– 

Christine: Well, in Austria there’s a place called Fucking, so at least it’s not The King of Fucking. 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: That could be really bad. 

Em: That’d be– If he was a real hump master, um– 

Christine: I suppose so. 

Em: It’d be crazy. Anyway. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Why do you drink, Christine? 

Christine: Well, this is kind of like a, a, a doozy that I feel like people will have thoughts on or chime in on, but I’m feeling really conflicted about how to talk to Leona about Sa– Okay, [sighs] sorry. Alert, alert. If there are children in the vicinity who have some– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –holiday magic, just change the episode please, right now, or pause it. Okay. Uh, I’m– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] That was your chance. Um, I’m conflicted about how to talk about Santa with Leona because I’m like– I just feel so weird lying, and I didn’t think it would be this like hard. But I’m just really struggling because I don’t feel good about it. I don’t know. 

Em: Interesting. 

Christine: I’m, I’m trying to found a mi– find a middle ground, and I feel like– I don’t– I think it must be like a personal thing. Like I must– Like I love the concept of Santa and Christmas, and like I want that magic to be real, but I think I was so taken aback when I realized my parents had been lying to me for years. [chuckles] And like they weren’t especially conscientious of like how they handled it when I found out, and I felt very like misled and confused and like– I really struggled with it. And so I think I’m really like trying to find a way to do it in the least damaging way possible, but I also don’t want to be like, you know, immediately I’m gonna ruin Christmas. You know what I mean? 

Em: Right. [chuckles] 

Christine: So I’m, I’m struggling. I don’t know. Um– 

Em: How– What, what has– What have you discussed with uh, with Daddy-o? 

Christine: Well, [sighs] we’re just kind of on the– We’re– I– I’m just trying not to push it too much. Like we’re just like, “Oh, yeah, Santa will bring presents, and you can write a letter.” Like we’ve been– 

Em: Are you like gonna like– 

Christine: –all the usual, but– 

Em: –have her go meet Santa? Or like what if a stranger’s like, “Oh, is Santa gonna– You gonna be good for Santa?” 

Christine: I know. And she’s like, “Yeah, Santa already knows all the thing–“ Like and she’s very s– very– [sighs] I don’t know. Very– I think– Hm. Yeah, she’s very in the Santa zone already. I just worry that if she’d ever ask me any questions about it that I’m gonna be like, “Um, I don’t know what to say.” 

Em: I think she’s gonna figure it out quickly based on your anxiety. 

Christine: I know. No, I– 

Em: She’s gonna go, “Um, this feels shady.” [chuckles] 

Christine: And this is something I do not bring to the table unless I’m out of earshot. But, um, I don’t know. I mean, what is your take on it? ’Cause I, I also don’t want to not do Santa. Like I don’t want to do that, and I don’t feel comfortable not doing that. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: And I think it’s way more fun to have Santa. I love, I love the idea. I loved having Santa around growing up, you know, as a legend and stuff, but I don’t know. 

Em: Yeah. I– 

Christine: I’m just struggling. 

Em: I mean, you’re coming to the person who is the least equipped with children. Um, so– And als– 

Christine: [laughs] I don’t know. You just found your, your son’s grandfather or something, so– [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] My father-in-law? 

Christine: Um, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Something like that. Um, no, I, I don’t know. We also like, I think, probably reacted to things differently as a kid. Like when I found out about Santa– 

Christine: Yeah. What happened? 

Em: Well, my art teacher told everybody. Um– 

Christine: What is wrong with people? Teachers of all people should not be the ones to be spoiling that. 

Em: I did think that was fucked up, but also I think she thought it was okay because we were like 11. Like by that point, like a l– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: I think enough kids knew, but my mom just never confirmed or denied it for me. 

Christine: I was eight. 

Em: I think she wanted me to believe in the spirit of things. 

Christine: And it was like I wanted my mom to play along a little longer, and she was like, “No, obviously it’s not real.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And I was like, “Oh, okay. I thought maybe you’d like comfort me a little bit, but like, no.” She was like– 

Em: No, my art teacher was a real jerk. She literally just– 

Christine: That sucks. 

Em: She had some point to make about Santa not being real, and then she caught herself, and I remember her hesitating and then going– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: –“We all know Santa’s not real, right?” And I– 

Christine: Ooh! 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: We don’t want that. That’s really bad. 

Em: And I went, “Well, that confirms things.” I mean, I was already suspicious. I– My mom has always said that by the time I was like six, I was already asking some like critical thinking questions there o– 

Christine: Right. ’Cause it’s like things start to, to be more apparent. 

Em: Yeah. Or like– 

Christine: Yeah. With handwriting and– 

Em: Or like I– I think, for me, I was able to grasp that like my parents were trying to do a– like a magical thing. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Like I, I was never– 

Christine: Well, that’s what I wanted. I was like, “At least can we play along?” And my mom was like, “Nah, all right, it’s over,” and then she’s like, “but don’t tell any of– Don’t tell your brother or any of your neighbors.” So for like years, I just had to pretend with them– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: –and it was really– I was like– 

Em: That’s evil because– 

Christine: –“Damn, it’s just me.” 

Em: –everyone else got to have the magic. 

Christine: I know! And I– My brother, it took him a few more years, and I was like, I just– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: It sucked. 

Em: Well, that’s– 

Christine: And then she gave my bike to my neighbors, and I had to pretend Santa got it for them, and it was my bike. Anyway, there’s clearly a lot wrapped up in this for me emotionally. And also the girl who told me is that girl I mentioned in a– like a few months ago, I think, who like was– said she was just pretending to be my friend all year and then like– 

Em: You had a bad year that day. Uh– [laughs] 

Christine: It was a bad year. I was eight years old, and she was like– she’s like, “Only idiots believe in Santa,” and, um– 

Em: No– Okay, Christine, I think we need to look within. This is obvious– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I think there are other contributing factors here as to why you had such a problem with Santa. [laughs] I think people just were bullying the shit out of you that year. 

Christine: I mean, yeah. I mean, yeah, that doesn’t help right. 

Em: I think– 

Christine: And then I went to my mom, and she’s like, “Duh,” and I was like, “Okay, can nobody just pretend for a minute?” Like– [chuckles] 

Em: I think nobody just let you have a whimsical moment to save your life, um, and I think, I think that plays into it. 

Christine: There’s no magic, no whimsy. Yeah. And I– Like I want– But I– Here’s what I struggle with. Like I’m fine– Like it’s been fine just being like, “Oh, Santa comes and drops off your gifts,” and like that’s totally fine. I think the part I struggle with is like last year Blaise did like footprints, you know– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –with like some flour. Well, Gio licked most of them up, but like [laughs]– 

Em: Precious. 

Christine: –flour and like the cookies and all that. 

Em: The cookies, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. And I’m like, “I– It’s cute.” But then I’m like, “Is that like alarming?” I don’t know. Is that like too far of a lie? 

Em: I th– 

Christine: I don’t know. 

Em: I– You are not wrong. I ge– I get what you’re saying. And honestly, we all know that I only don’t know answers with confidence because I don’t have to know them. 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: The second I had kids, I’d be like, “What the fuck do I do?” 

Christine: “What do you do?” I know. 

Em: Um, I don’t know. I don’t think four-year-olds are aware of the creep factor in Santa. 

Christine: Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah. 

Em: I think people had to like tell me line by line exactly how creepy he was eventually. Um– 

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah. I mean, it does sort of take a few decades to realize. Yeah. 

Em: I think if she– I– If I had to babysit and all of a sudden I’m getting questions about Santa, I would– and you couldn’t make it on the phone for some reason, I’m just– gotta make a decision. 

Christine: You’re calling the police, like “Help! 911.” 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] I mean, I think I would like dip my toe into l– I would like slowly test the waters on like how she’s responding to the magic. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And if at some point, she went, “That feels a little creepy.” I’d go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s fucked up.” Or, “He’s actually not real.” [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] “He’s– Don’t even talk to him.” [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I know a lot of people say like– even try to like half-truth it, and they’re like, “Oh, he’s all– The magic of him is real.” 

Christine: I know. That’s hard. 

Em: And– But I feel like that’s even harder to explain ’cause now– 

Christine: That’s hard. 

Em: –you’re turning into like some philosophical concepts versus like is he real or not. 

Christine: ’Cause it’s like, “Well, so you’ve been lying to me all these years,” and it’s like, “Yeah, technically.” 

Em: I– Hm. 

Christine: So it’s like is it okay to lie? No, but in this case it is. And it just– I, I just– And I know I’m like overanalyzing it and overthinking it. 

Em: Well, you’re a mom. 

Christine: And we keep it really chill for the most part, and it’s not even been an issue yet, but she’s just very quick. And so it like– I’m like any day now, she’s gonna be like, “But hang on, why does this paper– Why is this wrapping paper up in your office?” You know, like– 

Em: That was, that was how, um, my mom knew that I was on t– I was slick on her. 

Christine: It’s so hard to like hide things like that. 

Em: ’Cause she was like– I was– I said something like, “Mommy, your wrapping paper is the exact same as–“ 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: Or I said, “Santa’s wrapping paper is the exact same one at Target.” Like something like that. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And– 

Christine: “Yeah, it’s the same discount one we bought at Costco last week.” Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. And my mom was like, “Oh, Santa has great taste.” Like something like that. But, um, I, I mean, I could, I could see like you letting her just have nothing but whimsy, and then when she starts asking questions like then– 

Christine: Yeah, that’s probably what I’ll do. 

Em: –just go straight to the honesty. 

Christine: Yeah, or to be like just– Like the, the posts I’ve read about it, which I’m so thankful now for, for creators and people online who like share stuff about this, like psychiatrists and psychologists and child psychologists and just people who are like, “Here is– Like here are some appropriate things to say depending on the age. Here is like an appropriate response.” And so that’s been really helpful. And I don’t want to like throw my mom totally under the bus. Like I’m– She didn’t know what to do, you know. And– 

Em: No parent does, no. 

Christine: Right, no parent does. And so– But I’ve been reading a few things, and I think the like best approach I’ve landed on is like, “Yeah, when they ask questions, just kind of sus out how ready they are for the answer.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Like when I asked that question, I really wanted my mom to just be like, “Of course Santa’s real. Just like–“ And I, I would have been like, “Phew. Let me have another– one year– more year or something out of this,” you know. 

Em: Yeah. I think I would– 

Christine: And I– Yeah. 

Em: Sorry, go ahead. 

Christine: I was just gonna say I think that’s what I’ll do is just like, like approach cau– j– cautiously with whatever she brings– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and then like go from there, yeah. 

Em: I– So far what I’ve seen you do with her is a lot of like letting her lead the imagination train– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –of like– If she were to be like, “Oh, do you think there’s other reindeer out there?”, you’ve done a lot of like, “Well, what do you think?” Like a lot o– 

Christine: Yeah, that feels like the right– Yeah. 

Em: And then you’re not really saying yes or no or whatever. She’s just kind of making up her own story and having a good time with it. 

Christine: And then she’s like, “Actually, I do know exactly the truth,” and I’m like, “Okay,” and she’s like, “There’s 16 reindeer, and 5 of them–“ I don’t know– that she comes up with. 

Em: Do you, do you live in terror that she might come home from school and say, “This person says Santa isn’t real”? Now like you’re like in– confronted about it? 

Christine: No, not yet. She’s in such like a sweet little gentle preschool. I’m like, “There’s no way these–“ I mean, not no way, but I think in a few years maybe. But I think now there’s not really– It would only be her recognizing like little inconsistencies [chuckles]– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –which is, you know, I mean what– It is what it is. But, um, I think I hated just being also tasked with like, “Now, don’t tell four of your closest friends and sibling for the next like five, six years,” and I was like, “What?” [chuckles] 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: “That feels like not my job, but okay.” Um– 

Em: I wonder– No, that’s– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: That– I mean, again just the, the context of what you went through in the exact same era of discovering the truth about Santa, it sounds like maybe that’s all also at play, but I don’t know. 

Christine: Yeah, I– Yeah, yeah. 

Em: Sounds like it was a rocky road for you for a second there. [chuckles] 

Christine: Man, that girl was not nice, you know. 

Em: No, she sounds like a real bitch. [laughs] 

Christine: She was a real, real bitch. Tell you what, for an eight-year-old especially. Like, “Damn, girl.” 

Em: Ugh. Well– 

Christine: She goes, “I was just pretending to be your friend.” What? Who says that? 

Em: You know, I had someone at– um, I won’t say when, but they referred to people as acquaintances based on location. And they would– 

Christine: What does that mean? 

Em: Like, “Oh, I’m only friends with you because we live in the same area.” 

Christine: Oh, [laughs] okay? 

Em: And, and would call them “ABOLs” – acquaintance based on location. 

Christine: What? 

Em: And like thought it was like a very like normal thing to say. I wonder if they thought it was like a joke, and I just wasn’t picking up on that. 

Christine: Huh. 

Em: But they seemed pretty serious about it. And now in hindsight (this was years and years and years ago before I knew about like neurodivergence or anything), I’m wondering if that was just like a very literal definition of like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –what our relationship was. 

Christine: And they’re like, “Oh, I just made, um, an acronym to make it easier to remember.” [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. In the moment though, I was like, “What a fucking mean thing to say.” Uh– 

Christine: “Ow.” Seriously. 

Em: But in hindsight, I’m kind of picking up some stuff, and I’m just like, I wonder if they just– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –that was just their way of like putting things in categories of like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –“Oh, this is a friend from childhood. This is a fri– an ABOL. This is a–“ 

Christine: Like– “This is an ABOL.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Um– 

Christine: An “ABOL-mination.” 

Em: Anyway, I– Yeah, I, I think that’s funnier, actually. Um– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: But no, I– I don’t know why I said that. I feel like there was a reason to that. 

Christine: ’Cause some k– people are just like kind of cruel, and you’re like, “Wait, what?” 

Em: Yes. It– I was trying to, trying to join in on like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –“I’ve had friends who have also said things that were just i–“ 

Christine: Was her name Olivia? [laughs] 

Em: No. No. 

Christine: Can you imagine? 

Em: [laughs] That’d be crazy. 

Christine: She’s still up to her old bullshit. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] It’s like, “She terrorized you too? Oh my god.” [sighs] 

Christine: She and I had a ghost club. 

Em: That sounds great though. 

Christine: I know it was until she said, “I never believed any of that. I just was pretending to be your friend,” and I was like, “Cool, cool, cool. That’s nice.” 

Em: But at least she– And I mean, not “at least,” it sounds, um, wildly manipulative that she knew exactly the way to sucker you into playing friends. Like not even being friends– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: –but just playing the game of friends. Like, “Let’s play friends.” 

Christine: And it’s because she for sure was in on it too. She’s so full of shit. Like we were both like so invested, and then these other girls were like, “What’s wrong with you guys?” 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: And she was like, “Yeah, Christine, you loser.” [chuckles] And I was like, “What the hell?” 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: Um, yeah, that really sucked. But oh, she was the one I wrote the note to, uh, the fake– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –uh, the fake love letter. So th– it’s all starting to piece together a little bit. 

Em: Interesting. Interesting. 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: Yeah, I would love a memoir. You let me know. [laughs] 

Christine: Anyway– [laughs] Yeah, somebody else has to write this ’cause I’m not gonna remember shit. Um– 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] Well– 

Christine: Anyway. 

Em: –um, no, thank you for feeling safe to bring the Santa situ– 

Christine: [sighs] 

Em: I’m– Guarantee you’re not the only person involved in this podcast, uh– 

Christine: Yeah, I’ve seen people posting about it on stuff, so I’m like I’m– I wanted to, yeah, open it up if anyone had thoughts or, or any creative angles or anything. 

Em: Yeah. I’ll take, I’ll take the advice ’cause if I ever become a parent– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –I certainly won’t know what to do. Um– 

Christine: Well, you don’t– You do– You want to be careful with Hank. He’s a smart one too, you know. 

Em: He is. He knows up– I’m up to my wily ways. Um– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Yeah. Uh, and he’s like, “What’s a brother? What do you mean I’m gonna see him tomorrow?” 

Christine: [chuckles] “Hmmm…” 

Em: “What’s a grandpa?” [chuckles] 

Christine: “What’s a grandpa?” [chuckles] 

Em: “What do you mean I’m gonna see him tomorrow?” [sighs] Well, uh, I wish you well on your parenting journey ’cause that sounds like a– That doe– I could see why that would feel like something that you could like accidentally like fuck her up for life and it’s– 

Christine: Like mess tr– like me-mess up the trust or something, you know, but. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I know it’s also years– hopefully, years down the line that it even comes up, but. 

Em: Yeah. I don’t know. I’m also– I’m not the best candidate because I– It didn’t– I knew I was being bamboozled, and I was fine with it. So I– 

Christine: That’s what I want. 

Em: –you know. 

Christine: That’s what I’m hoping. Like I’m hoping that it all becomes like, “Oh, this is just part of my family’s like tradition, and, you know, it’s not like a personal–“ [laughs] 

Em: No, I– 

Christine: Like clearly it was personal for me, but I think as long as it’s not like, “Oh, my mom was just lying to my face,” like, you know. 

Em: I think the slowburn realization for– on my end was like I was aware that she was trying to do somethin– like there was good intention behind it. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: So it was like– 

Christine: I sort of got pushed o– into the deep end and was like, “What?” [chuckles] 

Em: You sure did. Yeah. [chuckles] Oh my gosh. 

Christine: What’s on your shirt? 

Em: Oh, um, I went– 

Christine: I keep thinking it says Eeyore. Oh, “explore.” 

[Em moves their light turquoise T-shirt into view. “Explore” is written out in large orange capital letters with a rocky texture. Underneath, a tall green dinosaur with a long neck and tail and black sunglasses walks along a trail. Behind them, the ground is dotted with pine trees and tall red rock features tower on the horizon. A sign in front of the dinosaur reads: “Apatosaurus X-ing.”] 

Em: No, it’s, it’s a dinosaur. Um– 

Christine: Is that from– 

Em: Red Rocks. 

Christine: Yeah. Oh, cool. Okay, cool. 

Em: Um, yeah, it was when I went to Denver with Allison a few months ago. 

Christine: Oh, nice. 

Em: Um, but I guess next to the Red Rocks, there’s a different rock called Dinosaur Rock. 

Christine: Oh, that’s fun. 

Em: And so– And I really wanted to get a shirt while we were there because, um, we were there for our anniversary, and we had been to the Red Rocks together in the past but, um, more of an excursion with her family who– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: This was right when I was discovering like my like POTS situation where like I was not– I was feeling like I was gonna pass out all the time. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. 

Em: I was like rocking a cane for a second. Um, fun fact, it has pretty much almost gone away except for when I’m waking up. So– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: In case anyone’s wondering, it– the– My cardiologist said it was probably like a symptom of long COVID, and it seems to be going away. 

Christine: [gasps] Wow. 

Em: Um, so, yay! 

Christine: Good. That’s great. 

Em: But, of course, it’s after I ordered like a custom cane on Etsy. Um– 

Christine: And, you know, there will be use for that, and we all know it. 

Em: I know. Anyway, uh, where were we? Oh, um, so we went. Her parents wanted to like walk up and down these– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –incredibly long stairs when I’m already at an elevation and I’m having a breathing problem. 

Christine: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Em: Um, and so I, I was like, “Maybe, maybe next time we come, it’ll be a little better for me.” And so, um, we happened to go, and there was like– they were playing Legally Blonde there. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So I wanted to go to the merch line, but there was literally thousands of people there, and I was like, “I’m not doing it.” 

Christine: Ugh. 

Em: So I bought this online. Fun. 

Christine: Oh that’s cute. Yeah, I like that. 

Em: Anyway, sorry for the lon– You didn’t ask. I just kind of kept going there. Um– 

Christine: I did. I said, “What’s on your shirt? Eeyore?” And you said, “No.” 

Em: You said what’s on my shirt, and I should have just gone, “A dinosaur,” and then fucking cut it. Um– 

Christine: [chuckles] No, that’s not enough. You know that’s not enough. 

Em: [sighs] Well, since you just can’t get enough of my voice, Christine, I have a very good story for you that I’m personally excited about. I don’t know what anyone else is gonna think. 

Christine: I can tell. 

Em: Um, did we have to– Are there any updates? Anything we have to say? 

Christine: Um, probably. What day does this come out? I’m just curious. 

Em: Before Christmas. 

Christine: It is? 

Em: I think the week before Christmas. 

Christine: Aw, merry almost Christmas. 

Em: I think this Sunday? [unintelligible] almost Christmas. 

Christine: No, this one’s for next Sunday, the tw– the 21st. 

Em: So the beginning of Christmas week. 

Christine: Yeah, Christmas week. 

Em: Dare you? Or is this not the Christmas episode? 

Christine: [gasps] [singing] ♪ Christmas time is here ♪♪ I even promised everyone in the, in the make-up se– Oh no, I can’t believe I forgot. Okay, I’ll do it again– ’Cause next week it’ll be too late. Oh, fuck! Okay. 

Em: Would you like to do it now here, and we’ll splice it to the front of the episode? 

Christine: Great idea. 

Em: ‘kay. I-I’m, I’m all ears. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

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Em’s Story – The Dumas Brothel 

Em: Ghosts, let’s go. This is the Dumas Brothel. 

Christine: Never heard of it. 

Em: Me either. Um, well, I can’t say that anymore, but 20 hours ago couldn’t– Yep. Um. [chuckles] 

Christine: [laughs] And now you know everything back, front, sideways. 

Em: And now I know certainly an insane amount. I actually– I– For someone who likes to yap and tries to fit as much in as possible, um, I had to redact quite a lot because I was just trying to keep the time– It– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: But there’s a lot going on here. Um, so, uh, this– Hang on. Did I already fuck up? No, I didn’t. Okay, great. This is in Butte, Montana. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Montana is on my list of places I still need to visit, so– 

Christine: Same. 

Em: –this might be an option. Um, and we are in 1890. 

Christine: 1890. Okay. 

Em: Say it with me. You know it well. 

Christine: Good year. 

Em: Um, it was founded by two brothers named Joseph and Arthur Nadeau. And weirdly enough, it’s a brothel, and they named it after one of their wives. 

Christine: That’s so romantic. 

Em: And then um, an– 

Christine: Imagine the brothers being like, “How about we name it after your wife?” 

Em: Yeah. A– Well, so apparently her maiden name was Dumas. But my first thought was like, “They named it after their wife, and it sounds like ‘dumbass.’” I was like, “That so–“ [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Oh, yeah. I hadn’t even thought of that. 

Em: Extra mean. Yeah. I can’t, I can’t imagine Blaise opening up a brothel and calling it like “The Schiefer.” 

Christine: And I was like, “Why would you do that?” And he’s like, “’Cause my brother suggested it.” 

Em: Right. 

Christine: I’m like, “Wait, what? You guys are weird.” 

Em: “We’re actually in cahoots. Um–“ 

Christine: “Yeah, that’s super weird, guys.” 

Em: “Ar– Don’t you feel so lucky to be a part of this?” 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, so the brothers– Let me charge my laptop real quick. The brothers were big shots in town. Um, they owned a lot of companies, especially a lot of brothels. So this was not the only brothel in town certainly. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And it was not the only brothel in town that they owned. Um, but fun fact, this is the one that we’re talking about. Um, they h– they had a lot of brothels in this area. And this area was known as the kind of red-light district of Butte, um, especially in the 1890s. I think sex work was illegal– uh, w-was legal at the time, and so there was really no hiding it, and there really wasn’t any like moral– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –higher ground if you weren’t involved in it. It was kind of a very common business I think. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, fun fact for later, at some point the brothers stopped working together, and Joseph, who’s the only brother you have to know the name of, he ended up owning the brothel on his own until he died at 77. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: So the only name you gotta know here so far is Joseph was one of the owners. 

Christine: Got it. 

Em: Um, after all of the brothel’s like different expansions throughout the year, ’cause it started smaller, then it gre– then it grew, then it grew, the building ended up with 43 rooms and still stands today and has all 43 rooms. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So during its heyday, ’cause this is the most fun part of any brothel story is like– 

Christine: The heyday. [chuckles] 

Em: –the, the heyday facts, I guess. But during its heyday, women were servicing – this is so yuck – um, servicing up to 50 to 60 men each day e– per person. They were– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –each 50 to 60 men. 

Christine: Oy vey. 

Em: The original cost at the time when they started the sex work at this brothel was 50 cents each, uh– 

Christine: ‘kay. 

Em: –per, per ten minutes. Um– 

Christine: Whoa. Okay. 

Em: I should have done the math. I did other math later for you. I should have done the– It was not our equivalent of 50 cents. It was actually a– probably a solid pay. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, and then this brothel lasted almost 100 years. And by the time the brothel ended, um, sex workers were getting $20 a pop instead of 50 cents a pop. 

Christine: Whoa. Wait, so ’til like 1980? Wait, is that right? 

Em: Mm-hmm. You’re– 

Christine: 1990? Oh my god. 

Em: We’ll get there. So– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, but it started with 50 cents for ten minutes. And, uh, there was some note that I found, uh, in one of the sources where like the average time between a guy getting into the brothel, doing his business, and leaving was eight minutes. [laughs] 

Christine: Oh! Wow. 

Em: It’s like why, why do we know that first of all? But, uh– 

Christine: In and out. 

Em: –a lot of the sex workers kept diaries, and the diaries were found, so. 

Christine: Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. Treasure trove. 

Em: So this was another area– I just talked about a mining town recently. This is another one of those, and it was actually also a copper mine. But the copper miners in the area were some of the biggest clientele here. And they all worked three different shifts at the mines, and so the women also worked three different shifts, so that way the brothel was– 

Christine: Oh, okay. 

Em: –a constant stream of revenue, if you will. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Um, they also catered to wealthier clientele on different floors. Basically, what– the level that you were on– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –was the quality of service, I suppose– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –and, and the, the cost of the night. Um, so the upper floor was for the wealthiest clients. The next floor down, which was like the– I don’t know, ground floor. I don’t– Depending on who’s listening. The lobby, the main floor. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, that was kind of mid-tier pricing. And then in the basement were– 

Christine: Oh boy. 

Em: –“the cribs,” as they call it. 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: And it was called the cribs because it was so small down there that basically only a crib could fit. 

Christine: Uh, what a weird like measurement to use. A crib? 

Em: We can call it anything. A bike. 

Christine: Of all things. [laughs] 

Em: Couldn’t call it anything else. A wagon. Um– 

Christine: A-anything. A, a fucking– Yeah, a wagon. That’s a good one. 

Em: So, uh– 

Christine: A wheelbarrow. I don’t know. 

Em: Trust me. I, I was like, “That’s fucking weird.” 

Christine: [laughs] Crib is wild choice, okay. 

Em: [chuckles] Fucking weird. Um, the rooms in the basement were called cribs. Uh, this was also the area that had the worst conditions. Um, this was kind of the area where a lot of the miners would come in from. They actually ended up creating their own door down in the basement, so you didn’t even have to go through the front door to get service here. You could just go through the back alley, come in through the back, do your servi– do your stuff, as long as you were fine to pay the lowest price and have the lowest quality of experience, probably with, quote, the – yikes – “lowest quality” of woman they could find or something– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –or whoever’s easiest– I don’t know. Whatever gross phrase they could come up with. Um, and then you could leave, and you’ve never even seen the main floor of the building. 

Christine: Mm, yeah. Okay. So even an entrance, yeah. Private entrance. 

Em: Yeah. Um, and I guess a lot of the brothels– I mean, this was the red light district, so a lot of the buildings were just brothel after brothel after brothel. And a lot of them had a back door like this– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –that all opened up until the same alley, which was called Pleasant Alley. 

Christine: Oh god. Of all [unintelligible] names. 

Em: . I know. At some point Pleasant Alley was changed to Venus Alley. So if you live in the area, that’s what I’m talking about. Um– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Um, but it was also like a really dangerous alley because it was where all of the kind of, you know– where you were going to do illegal nefarious things. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And apparently the women would have to “advertise” their work experience. Basically, they were walking resumes. So a lot of them would do the– what you’ve seen in movies of like leaning over the balconies pretty much naked– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –to like– 

Christine: To entice– 

Em: –be like, “Come on in.” Yeah. 

Christine: –clientele. Okay. 

Em: Um, anyway, the, uh, the brothel itself was in fact the longest operating brothel in the country– 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: –and it closed in 1982, which sounds crazy– 

Christine: Wow! 

Em: –and it was around 65 years after sex work was illegal. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Okay. 

Em: So it was doing some sneaky stuff all the way through the ‘80s. 

Christine: Under the radar. 

Em: Um, before– Like I said earlier, this was actually a very common business early on, especially in this kind of area where a lot of the clientele were kind of miners and they– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I don’t– This was just like an easy place for it to happen and also it was an area that required some version of revenue going through their economy, and sex work did, uh, bol– What’s the word I’m thinking of? It did contri– 

Christine: Bolster? 

Em: Bolster, thank you. It did bolster the economy. Apparently, a lot of the women would, you know– They were responsible for dry cleaners and, um, uh– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –apothecaries where they needed to get medicine after their nights. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, so it was, it was kind of holding the area together– 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: –and so even if it even as it became less and less moral of a thing, no one ever pooh- poohed on it. 

Christine: And like the peop– you know, you– Everyone knows someone who’s participating, so it’s like at a certain point who’s going to tell on who? Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. And, um, there– Because it was a mining town– I wish I knew the source that I read, but, um, a lot of women who were doing it were– They also were single women because their husbands worked in the mines and then they would die. And so they– 

Christine: Oh, I see. Yeah. 

Em: –needed a way to, to live afterwards. So– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: –um, there was a lot of reasons around why this– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –was such a solid thing in, in the area. But in 1917, sex work became outlawed for the first time. Do you know why? I didn’t know this. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: I think once I tell you– 

Christine: 1917– World War I? I have no idea. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: Oh. [laughs] 

Em: So– [chuckles] 

Christine: Hey. 

Em: Well, so they didn’t want the soldiers to get STIs and be unable to fight in battle, so that’s the only reason why sex work became– 

Christine: Oh, they’re like, “Actually, we have one more slightly more elevated purpose–“ 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “–slightly more urgent purpose for these men, which is going to get killed.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “So we need them at their fighting fit.” 

Em: At their fighting fit. So this is, uh, when businesses had to start getting sneakier with their kind of like wheelings and dealings, but for a long time police knew about it anyway, and they ignored it. Um, again, mainly because sex work was a huge part of Butte’s economy. Um, one example of how, um, dependent the county was or the area was– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –on their money coming in was that one year copper prices went up, which meant miner’s pay went up. They all got raises by like 25 cents. And that alone added $6,000 then or almost a quarter million dollars now to Butte’s economy. [laughs] 

Christine: Jesus. Oh my god. Okay. Wow. 

Em: That much more money went into sex work– 

Christine: Booming. 

Em: –as soon as people got like a quarter of– a quarter for a raise. 

Christine: Right. 

Em: So this, this town was trying to keep the sex work, you know, alive as long as they could ’cause it was doing good things for them. 

Christine: Like as stable as possible. Yeah. 

Em: Another reason the police ignored what was going on at the brothel was because a lot of the madams would pay them off. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, they would have these like fines where like, “if you pay this fine, then we’ll walk away and–“ 

Christine: “We’ll just ignore it.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. 

Em: Some cops who didn’t play that way and actually did try to do raids on the place, uh– 

Christine: Found their cop brethren inside and were like, “Uh, this is awkward. The captain’s here.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Yeah, they were– “Well, time to go.” No– 

Christine: That’s what I picture in like the HBO version of this show. 

Em: Of course, that was my first thought too. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: I was like, “I wonder if they’re like keeping it under wraps because they probably go here in their free time,” right? 

Christine: Yeah, I would think some of them. 

Em: If it’s this normalized, I, I– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –can’t say people I know wouldn’t be going if it was this normalized. It’s just part of– 

Christine: Your A– ABOLs? What are they called? ABOLs? [chuckles] 

Em: My, my ABOLs, yeah. [chuckles] Uh, no, I just– I imagine if it’s that normal, like of course everyone’s doing it, you know. Um, so anyway, a lot of people would try to– a lot of cops would try to do raids on them anyway when they were not of that world. And the sex workers had a way around that because they had– not only were they doing illegal activities, but they had some, um, immigrants who hadn’t had their papers filled out yet or anything like that working for them. Um, I think there’s, there’s at least two or three people I read about that worked here and were always afraid of being deported. And so one of the ways that the sex workers helped them was that if there was a raid, they made fake refrigerators in the kitchen– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –that were just basically boxes. Like just– Then they would just put them in the box, and so like a cop would never think to go look in the fridge for people. Um, and it was– 

Christine: This is kickass. 

Em: –completely hollowed out, so they could just stand in there, but it looked like a freezer and a fridge door. And they would put a fake broken lock on the fridge door, so that way if the cop tried to yank it and it wouldn’t open, they could be like, “Oh, yeah, we haven’t gotten around to fixing the latch yet. It just doesn’t open.” 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: But it was a full-ass– 

Christine: And the person inside is like, “Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.” 

Em: Well, it was a full door, and on the inside it locked like three different times. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So they could lock themselves in. 

Christine: Smart, smart. 

Em: And it had air holes and everything, so they could be there as long as they needed to. So– 

Christine: Genius. 

Em: –the– And a lot of– 

Christine: And it was a refrigerator, so there’s like pudding and all sorts of produce next to you. 

Em: [laughs] Unfortunately, no. It literally looked like a movie fridge. Like there was nothing in there. It was– 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: You crawled in and just stood there. Like it– There was no– 

Christine: Eugh, it’s so creepy. 

Em: There was no appliances in there. It was just a hole. 

Christine: Very clever. 

Em: It was super clever. So just another way that like sex work was like not only helping the, the county or the area, but like their literal staff like help– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It was just a big communal space. I know it’s kind of like weird to say, but it’s true. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, so anyway, all that to say, it was illegal since 1917. They really cracked down in 1943 because of World War II. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So both World Wars are responsible for this. Um, so then they had to get even sneakier. They renamed themselves a hotel instead of a brothel. I think it was a boarding house that they renamed themselves to. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Um, and then they sealed off all of the like secret passage back alley doors and things like that. It actually is said that they also sealed off the basement entirely, um, which is very interesting, which I will get to in a second. But, um, just know that they, in theory, sealed off the bottom. And so, like it wasn’t touched a– since like the ‘40s or ‘50s. 

Christine: Mm, spooky. 

Em: And then it was reopened. 

Christine: Spooky! I wish I were there for that. Oh my god. I wish nothing more. It would be my dream to go like open those tunnels up. 

Em: I– It– The tunnels are still like, um– They look like the, the walls we were not allowed to go back into at the Sallie House. Like they’re just like kind of like dirty and old and like untouched and like– You couldn’t even climb through there if you wanted. 

Christine: What w– The walls in the basement, you mean? 

Em: Yeah, the one that Zak climbed through. [laughs] 

Christine: Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, the ones– Oh, right. The foundation of the home. Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: It l– 

Christine: Yeah. That’s– That looks– So it looks like my basement basically. Like just creepy like little pathways and dirt floors. Okay. 

Em: Yeah. You don’t want any of it. Uh, it looked really fucking creepy. 

Christine: I mean, I do personally, but you don’t, so. 

Em: I want to watch you have a great time. 

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: You can watch my GoPro footage afterward. [laughs] 

Em: So um, the last part of the history I’m gonna get into is that there were a lot of madams that ran the brothel throughout the years. Um, there are some significant ones that you do need to know. Um, so I’m just gonna only tell you those because o– I just– [sighs] I could do a– 

Christine: Yeah, give me the top tier– 

Em: Thank you. 

Christine: –madams. 

Em: Um, and if you need to write this down, I am about to say a lot of names. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Um, and you don’t have gargoyles like I do, so. 

Christine: I don’t, and I’m really disappointed I haven’t gotten some by now. Okay, here we go. You go ahead. 

Em: Okay. So the first one– There’s Elinor. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And so, basically, she was one of the madams during the ‘50s. She falls in love with a guy– This is the story at least. So she was gonna fall– She fell in love with the guy. She was gonna leave the industry. She was gonna stop her job as a madam. She was just gonna have a new life with this boyfriend. 

Christine: She was done with this life. Okay. 

Em: Done with this life, exactly. Um, leave it behind her. But then she had her– At least how the story goes, she had her suitcase ready. Her boyfriend was supposed to pick her up that day and take her away from this town, and he never showed up. Jilted– 

Christine: Tale as old as time. Okay. 

Em: Jilted bride, I swear. Um– 

Christine: I know, every time. 

Em: And so the next day, you know, as this– the story seems to go is that, um, she was found dead in her room. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Now, the thing is she was found dead in her room. Some people say she died by suicide. Um, but some people say that the woman who found her, whose name was Bonita– 

Christine: Okay. Got it. 

Em: There you go. Um, Bonita found her, and the autopsy report said that Elinor died of “natural causes” like a coronary issue or something, but she was incredibly young. She shouldn’t have totally– That shouldn’t be how she had gone. Um, and– 

Christine: And the timing is pretty weird. 

Em: Yeah. And– Exactly. It’s very interesting that Bonita is the one that found her because as soon as she died, Bonita stepped up and became the next madam– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –immediately moved in with her husband, immediately started driving Elinor’s car, immediately started using whatever money she had– 

Christine: Moved in with Elinor’s husband? 

Em: No, no, no. Sorry, sorry. That’s crazy. No, moved in with her own husband and took a– 

Christine: Ohh, moved in– Bringing her husband along. Okay. I was like, “Oh, shit. This is getting real dark.” Okay. 

Em: I would be like, “That’s insane. That’s like soap opera.” 

Christine: Whoo. 

Em: Um, uh– 

Christine: She was her twin, her evil twin. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] She actually peeled her face off, and she was Elinor. 

Christine: Ahh! [laughs] 

Em: Um, but so she started using all Elinor’s shit. She moved straight in. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and then she even tried to like provide evidence that said like, “No, no, no. Elinor wanted me to have all these things. She– We had had discussions where she was going to like– I was gonna inherit all this from her.” 

Christine: I guess she put someone in place like after– when she was going to leave, right? 

Em: She did, and her name was I think like Jean or something. It was a random other person. 

Christine: Oh, a different person? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Oh no. Okay, this is starting to get fishy. 

Em: Yeah. So um, it ended up being proven that Elinor– I don’t know about proven, but there was other evidence against Bonita’s evidence– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –that said Elinor wanted to actually sell everything and not let anyone inherit any of it. And the next person who was gonna be a madam was this other woman that Bonita stepped in front of and got in the way. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So interesting that all of this happened, and she’s the one that found her and could have made up the story. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: We– Maybe there was no boyfriend with a s– And she had a suitcase, and she was gonna go run away. Like maybe she was just there and got killed. 

Christine: Oh, interesting. So we’re hearing all this from Bonita? 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: So she could have died by suicide, could have been murder. We don’t know. But she was– 

Christine: Could have been really coincidental coronary issue or– 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: –maybe she was so upset it like triggered a heart attack. I don’t know. 

Em: On top of that, what’s interesting is that the other big death that happened here was Bonita’s husband– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –also found by Bonita. 

Christine: Not to be confused with Elinor’s husband [chuckles] ’cause– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like I d– like I did for a moment. Okay, good. 

Em: Um, no, he was found at the bottom of the stairs, uh, with a broken neck, but– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –his cause of death at the autopsy, um, had a question mark at the end of it because even the mortician or autopsy guy, he was unsure. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Things didn’t add up. 

Christine: A question mark is wild on an official document. 

Em: It’s like “broken neck?” Um– 

Christine: Oo, that’s– Yeah. Okay. 

Em: Or whatever the reason was. I, I don’t totally– But– And so I guess they thought that the broken neck– It– The stairs were not steep enough for him to have broken his neck that way. So there was talk that his neck was broken previously, and then he was thrown down the stairs by someone. 

Christine: To make it look like an accident. Okay. 

Em: And of course he was found by Bonita, who also found the only other dead person. 

Christine: Bonita. 

Em: Bonita, Bonita, Bonita. Um, so he– Yeah. So that’s interesting. Anyway, she became one of the next madams, and after she ended up stepping down came along a woman named Ruby. You don’t need to know anything about Ruby except that she was involved in a robbery at some point here. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, and she was the last madam. She was the madam until the ‘80s, but, um– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –after the robbery, really trying not to get into more drama, but they ended up closing the place. They discovered too much after the robbery. They were like, “You’re obviously still running a brothel. It’s the ‘80s. Goodbye.” 

Christine: Yeah, “This is actually– We’re in a new era now, so.” 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] So, um, just to keep it short and tight, that’s what we’re gonna go with. So in 1982, the brothel officially closed, and it turned into a museum. It had a bunch of restorations done to it to like try to preserve it. Um, and during these restorations, the whole basement or chunks of the basement were unsealed, and they found all of the stuff that was original from 1943 all the way down to like cigarette butts on the nightstand table. 

Christine: Oh, it was just sealed right off. Oh my god. 

Em: And condoms and coins. 

Christine: Ugh. 

Em: There was glasses still with alcohol dried into it. There was clothing. Like– 

Christine: Imagine just like leaving your drink for a minute and then it’s like, “Oh no, it’s actually gonna be there for another 40 years untouched.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: That’s crazy. 

Em: There, there was like a masquerade mask that– if someone was into that. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: A lot of the stuff people found in walls. Like they found like matchbooks and like– and clothes in the walls. 

Christine: Oh, wow. 

Em: Um, and all of it is still down there. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: It literally just looks like a shrine. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: It’s like– Yeah. And you can go on tours and see it. Um, so all of this to now say fast forward to 2012 where, uh, it has been, um– The guy who’s owned it has been trying to do restorations and turned it into a museum. He ends up selling it to a couple named Michael and Travis, and they also wanted to help turn it into a museum and a gift shop and an Airbnb. 

[Christine looks to her right, frowning and looking confused.] 

Christine: Sorry– 

Em: Girl, did Michael walk by? What happened just now? 

Christine: [chuckles] A door just slammed at my house, and Blaise is on a trip. [laughs] And I’m like– It happened twice. And I was like– I heard Gio making noises. And I was like, “Oh, it’s just the cats,”and then the door went, “Bam!” And now– And he’s– now he’s pacing the room, and I’m getting freaked out. [speaking to Gio offscreen] Gio. 

Em: Uh-uh– 

Christine: Maybe Blaise came back [laughs] from his trip. 

Em: Yeah, maybe he came all the way back [chuckles] this exact– Th– Maybe Leona actually grew up 20 years immediately– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: –and she’s just walking around. 

Christine: Please hold. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Please go viral if, if I die. 

Em: Okay, great. 

Christine: Make, make the most of my death. 

Em: I certainly hope to. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Don’t worry. Good luck. 

[Christine gets up, walking offscreen to investigate.] 

Christine: Hello? 

Em: Why “hello”? One-way ticket to a– not surviving the horror movie. How d– At what point do I decide that she didn’t survive this and now it’s just a one-man show? I was hoping for some like remote commentary from the other room through the hall, but I’m not even hearing her. 

[clattering sound from Christine’s house] 

Em: Oh my god. Is it her? 

[Christine returns, sitting back down on her couch in front of the camera.] 

Em: Oh, thank God. 

Christine: Well, I’m still alive. I yelled “hello,” and then nothing happened. And I– 

Em: We heard. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I was like, “Well, that’s literally the first thing you don’t do in any horror movie.” 

Christine: I know. And like why? I don’t know why. 

Em: Like– 

Christine: I just thought maybe Blaise came home. [laughs] 

Em: I understand like rationally why someone would say “hello,” but also like the other option is that a person you don’t want in your house says “hello” back. 

Christine: And now they know you know they’re there. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Really dumb. And also I was thinking, um– I will say sometimes when I yell at the cats, they come like running by ’cause they’re like– so I thought maybe I’ll yell “hello,” and they’ll like come scuttling out of a room– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –but it was just silent. Um, so I don’t know. 

Em: If it happens a third time, we’re– I’m out of here. 

Christine: If it happens a third time, yeah. Something’s gone awry, and I need to figure out what’s happening. But, um– 

Em: Did it sound like aggressive? Or like could it– Could one of the cats just bumped into a door? 

Christine: That’s what I’m wondering. But I looked at all the doors I could find, and nothing seemed like– 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: –closed or even leaned closed. I don’t know. 

Em: My doors here are pocket– 

Christine: Gio’s still just like [chuckles] staring down the stairs. Ugh, [sighs] Okay. Well– 

Em: My doors here are pocket doors. So like if they move, I’m for sure out of the house. 

Christine: Oh, that’s gonna– That means like the earthquake is so bad that the house is like tilted, and it’s just– 

Em: [laughs] Sliding. 

Christine: –sliding [laughs] which like honestly, not unheard of I would imagine in LA, but. 

Em: No, I’m sure. 

Christine: Oh man. Well, it’s either– I mean, nobody’s on my doorbell camera, so it’s either a ghost or somebody’s been living in the walls. Haha. 

Em: I, I am– 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: I don’t– That sounds horrible. Um, well, that was– 

Christine: At least Gio’s protecting me. Not really. He followed me downstairs with his tail between his legs, so. 

Em: That’s what I thought. Yeah, someone at the dog park was like, “Would Hank protect you?” And I was like, “Literally, not a chance.” 

Christine: Hell no. 

Em: “Not a chance.” 

Christine: I didn’t– I don’t believe– Until I s– witness it with my own two eyes, I don’t believe any dog would do that. Even though I know for a fact there are dogs that are like very productive. Gio would be like, “Oh no, she died.” 

Em: Mine isn’t– 

Christine: “I’m gonna go back upstairs.” [laughs] 

Em: He would h-help the, the killer. Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, he’d be like, “You brought snacks?” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Oh, yeah, let’s kill ‘em.” [laughs] 

Em: “Couldn’t have had a better plan myself.” Um– 

Christine: “Yeah, I’ll hop in your car. I’ll wait there.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Well, so– Okay. So we were at, um, they unsealed it and– doing– during restorations. 

Christine: My dream. I want to know all about it. I want– Yeah. 

Em: And there’s just a whole bunch of cool stuff down there. But in 2012, a new couple owned the place to continue renovating it. 

Christine: Michael and Travis. 

Em: Michael and Travis. And they wanted it to be a gift shop. They wanted i– to turn it into an Airbnb. But the spirits were not kind to this couple. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Um, and– You tell me– Well, don’t tell me what you think yet, but– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –be aware of Michael and Travis. They are– Michael es– in, in particular is a big character here, who, by the way, didn’t see a single fucking lick about Michael on my reading journey. 

Christine: [laughs] Travis is– 

Em: But on my watching journey? 

Christine: Oh? Okay. 

Em: So the couple in general like do not get mentioned at all, and then all of a sudden, like every TV show they were involved in or there was a quote from them or something. And so, um, I was shocked that this didn’t get mentioned a lot. Although, we– [sighs] We’ll get there. I– There’s too much to go through. So Michael and Travis, they want to turn this into an Airbnb. The spirits were not kind to them. Basically, Michael was, um– It, it seemed that he was the major victim to a lot of the dark energy here. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: Um, he would talk about how he was constantly feeling like he was being choked by something here, how he would get shoved onto the ground– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –how he literally would get s– lifted off the ground and slammed down into the floor. 

Christine: Jesus. 

Em: Um, he would go into the basement as little as possible– Because I haven’t really talked a lot about the basement except that it got unsealed, but that area is certainly the darkest, creepiest– 

Christine: I can only imagine– 

Em: –area. 

Christine: –especially if it was like the most efficient part of the building, and they’re just like getting people in and out through a secret door– or like through a secret door or private door. 

Em: Yes. 

Christine: Yuck. 

Em: And it was kind of like the grodiest are– area, like a l– 

Christine: The cribs. 

Em: The cribs, and, uh, that was also the area that was sealed off. I mean, it was literally– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: It’s like opening a, a jar and like– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: I mean, it’s just– It feels like now we’re messing with our time capsule and– 

Christine: With people’s like half-finished drinks and stuff. I mean, it’s just really creepy. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. Um, and so he– 

Christine: And they’re like, “Airbnb potential.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Like, “Why don’t you go sleep in a crib where a bunch of women had to sleep with 60 men each a day for 50 cents?” 

Christine: I mean, they were very creative. I gotta give them that. Yeah, very, um, entrepreneur attitude here. 

Em: I mean, you buy a building. It’s got 43 rooms. I do see how it’s a thought. Um– 

Christine: And 2012, like that’s ahead of the Airbnb curve I would say. 

Em: Yeah, yeah. 

Christine: That’s like early days for Airbnb. That’s very, very creative situation. 

Em: Um, so– 

Christine: Oh, did you say “B&B” or “Airbnb.” 

Em: Uh, at the time B&B, but I’m sure it was– 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: –going to become an Airbnb as technology– 

Christine: Got it. 

Em: –moved on. 

Christine: Okay. I thought they were like, “Let’s get this thing on Vrbo.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: I was like, “Wow, they’re really–“ Okay, so they wanted to make it like a bed and breakfast type. 

Em: Bed and breakfast, yeah. 

Christine: Okay. Got it, got it, got it. 

Em: Um, but Michael is really noticeably going through what, um, what he thinks is like some sort of– 

Christine: [chuckles] Going through it. 

Em: Going through it. Um, to a point where he is the topic of multiple ghost TV shows that come to film here because he seems so obsessed and weirdly attached, like kind of in the way that you always hear people saying that like, “Oh, they were attached to this building, and they refused to leave.” 

Christine: I don’t like that. 

Em: “And they were acting really anxious and panicky.” When you’re watching the episodes, he looks fucking freaked out. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: Like he is acting very odd. Um– 

Christine: Ooh, that gave me chills. 

Em: And so the first show I watched was Dead Files, and that’s when– 

Christine: [groans] Ugh! You know I love ‘em. 

Em: –there’s the, the, uh, paranormal investigator and the, uh, private eye, and they both look at it separately. 

Christine: I remember this, I think r– this episode. 

Em: So, um, basically Michael’s friend calls them for helping– Like, “Our friend Michael lives here. He is weirdly obsessed with this brothel. He refuses to leave. He believes it’s his duty to be here. He has some weird attachment. But every time he leaves the building, he acts totally normal. But when he’s here–“ 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: “–it’s like super frenetic and odd. Um, he’s like very uptight and like controlling and freaked out by everything.” 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: “He has time slips where all of a sudden he doesn’t know where he is. He feels total anxiety, but he also can’t leave.” And the psychic, Amy, identifies there being an older male landlord, which is– was probably Joe, the guy I wanted you to remember– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –because he– At some point the brothers broke up, and he was the only one who– 

Christine: Oh, Joseph. Yes. Okay. 

Em: –who owned this place, um, until he died. And so– And then she ended up describing this guy that she was seeing in all of her visions an– 

Christine: Ooh. And then she does like a sketch artist, and it’s like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Ahh! I love that show. 

Em: And she did weirdly describe a picture of Joe– or Joseph. Um, but she said that– Without knowing any information about this place, just walking in, uh, she said there’s an older male landlord here who’s involved in illegal activities. He likes to hurt, choke, and punch people. He is seen as a dark mist down here. Um, and he’s very educated. He’s rich. He has white hair. He built the literal building we’re in. He’s disgustingly greedy. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And then she says she also senses women down here being very sexual. And then she said, “I sense,” quote, “‘drug dealers, kid sellers, and pimps.’” 

Christine: “Kid sellers”? Oh god. 

Em: So fun fact, there was actually a woman, uh, that was known in this area– 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: –and she was in the red light district ar– So where she ran essentially a back alley abortion clinic because those– 

Christine: Okay. I mean, I guess that goes hand-in-hand with something like this. Yeah. 

Em: Sure. And she actually ended up, um, having three manslaughter charges for botched abortions and the women dying. 

Christine: [sucks in breath sharply[ 

Em: Um, but there were other times where she would– The women wanted to deliver their babies to full term, and she would help deliver the babies, but she would tell them that their babies were stillborn and then sell them. 

Christine: Oh no. Yeah, that’s sick. 

Em: Up to like 30 babies that happened with– 

Christine: Oh my lord. 

Em: And each one was for like $500 at the time. So, um– 

Christine: Oof. [sighs] 

Em: So it’s weird that she picked up on that energy too. And a lot of people sense children down here and don’t know why, but– 

Christine: Oh, yeah. ’Cause it doesn’t seem like there would be any reason for children. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. There’s a lot of like yanking on your pant leg and all that. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And they think that the kids just grew up here around it if they had nowhere else to go ’cause their mom– 

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Em: –was working here or living here. Um, so anyway, at the end of the show, Amy, um, hea– And by the way, the private eye seems to have like been able to validate all of this stuff. At the end though, Amy hears Michael talking about his obsession with this house, and then she finally sees a picture for the first time of the guy she was describing, and it was this guy, Joseph, who built the building– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –from the very beginning and was the original owner of the brothel, and says that Joseph and Michael, the current owner, look very similar and believes that Michael is Joe reincarnated and– 

Christine: O-oh. Uh– 

Em: –and that there– Yes, that’s what I was also doing at two in the morning. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And– 

Christine: Oh my god, what? I don’t remember this. 

Em: And that their souls were like weirdly shattered but spliced and intertwined with each other. Um, and that’s why he’s so attached to the brothel ’cause he’s trying to carry on a duty that he had in a past life. 

Christine: Oh my. 

Em: And Michael and the whole team kind of eat it up because he’s like desperate for an answer. So you can do what you– 

Christine: Yeah. I mean, what are you gonna do? Disprove it? Right, like– 

Em: You can do what you want with that information, yeah. Um, you can believe what you want. It’s a little out there for me. 

Christine: I– Listen, if Michael believes it, I’m like, “I guess.” 

Em: He seemed really desperate for someone to explain why he was how he was. Um– 

Christine: Okay. Poor thing. 

Em: After that– I know I’m going on, on a lot here, but I– This is– We’re talking about the ghosts now, so I hope everyone’s chill with that. Here we go. Um, the next show I watched was, of course, fucking Ghost Adventures, and it was clearly filmed after Dead Files because the introduction to this is that Michael has now been an owner of this place for five years, and he is obviousl– 

Christine: His na– He’s changed his name to Joseph legally. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Well, he obviously is still in an agitated state. He’s still acting super panicky. 

Christine: Oh no, I was hoping at least it would like have calmed him a bit. But– 

Em: So, um, they do– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –they don’t say, “The show, Dead Files, gave us this information,” but you can tell it was cut where that had been said– 

Christine: Cool. 

Em: –and then they just cut right into the scene. 

Christine: Cool, cool. They’re like, “Actually, we don’t want to give credit to anybody, so we’ll just say it.” 

Em: So Michael’s friend, who was also on Dead Files, who was the one who called them to say, “Come help my friend,” she’s also now being interviewed, uh, by Zak, tells them, um, you know, “Michael’s still acting really odd, and he’s very weird, and he’s like– He acts totally different when he’s not here, but here he’s like totally off”– 

Christine: Still. 

Em: –and tells Zak how the house has been affecting him and that he is Joseph reincarnated pretty much. Um, weirdly, Zak doesn’t react the way you would expect. He seems actually concerned. [chuckles] Um– 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: –and since Dead Files, apparently– This is a super weird fun fact that Michael also bought a house to live in outside of the, the brothel. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: And what are the odds? Without knowing it, he bought Joseph’s fucking house. 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: So he bought Joseph’s house– 

Christine: Ew! 

Em: –that Joseph used to live in, and he bought Joseph’s brothel– 

Christine: Ew! 

Em: –and didn’t know either time. 

Christine: I mean, listen, I’m convinced that he’s reincarnated, but whatever. What do I know? 

Em: So– I mean– And also like the friend too is also acting very odd and like, uh, very similar to how Michael is acting. They’re both acting very agitated by things or like seeing things. They’re like– 

Christine: Who is she? Bonita reincarnated? 

Em: –wincing– [chuckles] 

Christine: I’m starting to get suspicious of these people. 

Em: So hold on to that. Um, both Michael and Jenny, the friend, are acting very bizarre. I mean, Zak is genuinely weirded the fuck out. He’s like– 

Christine: Okay, well, that like– that’s gotta tell you something, you know? 

Em: He’s like not even doing his usual bits. He’s like– You can tell he’s like, “Are you fucking okay? Like what’s going on?” Um– 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: And like at one point, he’s trying to talk to her while– during the walkthrough, and Jenny’s like covering her ears and like– It’s like she can hear something– 

Christine: [sucks in breath] 

Em: –or see something, and she’s like wincing at things, and she’s saying like, “He’s right behind you,” and blah-blah-blah. 

Christine: And Zak’s like, “That’s my job. I’m supposed to be on the floor like holding my head and saying, ‘I’m possessed,’ not you.” 

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. It’s like, “You’re stealing my thunder here.” Well– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I will say– This was not mentioned anywhere, but I wanted to make sure I did some due diligence here. It seems, in hindsight, that Michael, and probably his friend, who seems to always be around, were dealing with some serious substance issues. 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: And in 2018, Michael died of an overdose. 

Christine: [gasps] No, that’s terrible. 

Em: So that certainly kicks a portion of the paranormal stuff out the window. 

Christine: Mm, mm. 

Em: Um, and when you look at it now with that knowledge, it does feel– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –like a pretty solid answer. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: Um, especially because both of them are acting exactly the same way. It feels like– 

Christine: And like erratic and– Yeah, okay. 

Em: And I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe I’m totally off on the friend. I– Maybe she was just– Maybe something really paranormal was happening with her. I’m not sure. I don’t know. I can’t speak. I wasn’t there. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: But we do know that alongside this, which if you are leaning the spooky route, you can always say, “Oh, well, he, he went that–“ 

Christine: He was influenced by– Right. 

Em: “–went into drugs because of all this stuff.” Whatever, you know. Um, but he did die of an overdose in 2018. 

Christine: Oof, that’s sad. 

Em: And, um– So to bring some levity back to this where I can, we got Zak Bagans on the radar, so we can talk about this. 

Christine: I mean, he’s here, right? Yeah, okay. 

Em: Um, so yeah. So Mi– 

Christine: Whatever happened to Travis? 

Em: Travis ends up selling it because Michael passed. So– 

Christine: Oh, sad. Okay. 

Em: Um, and, and Travis was really going through it too. Like he said that there was people touching him. Like he could feel like a woman– like he could feel breath on his neck. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: He could feel a woman like grabbing him, and like he was really uncomfortable as well. Um, and that they were all having paranormal experiences, which personally I think two things could be happening true– 

Christine: True, yeah. 

Em: –can be happening at the same time. Um, maybe sometimes they were not in their right mind, and it wasn’t paranormal/ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Maybe it was really paranormal, and no one believes them because they were also under the influence. 

Christine: Right, right. 

Em: So who knows? Um, but, uh, anyway, so while– After Zak interviews these people and he’s like totally freaked out not knowing anything else, um, they do their own investigation, and the, the episode is very fucking creepy. There are huge crashes and thuds in the basement that everyone in the house hears. They use the SLS, or stick figure camera, and it– 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: –um, it does like touch people on the arm right when they say to do it and– 

Christine: [gasps] Yuck. 

Em: –people can feel it and touch exactly where the SLS figure is showing up. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: They used, um, the Paranormal Puck which is essentially texting with ghosts– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: –and, uh, they were able to speak to who they think was Elinor, um, and there was a lot of interesting things there. Um, I’m just trying to get through this quickly because– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, 

Em: –there’s something I do want to mention to you. Um, in a very creepy way, Billy and Zak at different times have like– They black out and go into time slips, and they don’t– 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: When they find Zak, he’s in an empty room facing the wall. 

Christine: [laughs] He– I told you, that’s his job. He needs to be– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –the one having some sort of crisis. 

Em: He’s like, “I need to bring, bring it back to me actually.” Uh– 

Christine: Yeah, “Actually, this is focusing a, a lot on other people.” 

Em: He does ask the ghost, “Why don’t you like me?” And an EVP that is very clear says, “I just don’t.” Um– 

Christine: [laughs] Okay, fair enough. 

Em: [laughs] And then this is what I wanted to get to. Um, I’m sorry. I know I’ve been rambling everybody, but I– I’ve really got so invested in this one. 

Christine: Hey, don’t be, don’t be worried. I am apologizing in advance. I have quite a doozy of a story too, so. 

Em: Okay, cool. Well, this is the part I wanted to get to. In case you did need some levity, here it is. Zak, while he’s here, wants to try an experiment. 

Christine: What? 

Em: This is a quote. “I thought I would–“ 

Christine: He– I know. I already know. 

Em: Tell me. 

Christine: Is it some sort of– he wants to like entice them, the sex workers or something? 

Em: You were close. You were, you were, uh– That is– sounds like what would happen. But his whole storyline was he was after the big, bad, dark Joseph and not the sex workers, which is– 

Christine: Wow, for– Okay. Alright. 

Em: For fucking once, yeah. 

Christine: For once, truly. Okay. 

Em: So flip it around, and what do you get? [in sing-song tone of voice] Wicked witch. Sorry, TikTok. Um, sorry. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s like a whoosh over my fucking head. 

Em: It’s a whole thing. Fl– Anyone who hears the phrase “flip it around” these days knows what I’m talking about. Okay. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: But for Zak, flip around the situation, and instead of going after the women, he wants to go after the one man that owned this brothel. And an exact quote from Zak is, “I thought it would be a good idea to bring what this man wants, women.” So Zak hired multiple women– 

Christine: Oh my… 

Em: –and dressed them as women of the night– 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. 

Em: –and then made them each stay alone in an empty room in this house, including the basement everyone’s afraid of and the attic. There was one girl sitting alone in the basement. She pulled the short straw. 

Christine: And so he just filmed all of them. 

Em: So he just filmed them, and then he was– 

Christine: Oh my lord. 

Em: Uh, once he was at nerve center– I guess he gave each of them a walkie-talkie, so you can hear when he talks that every room is hearing it. 

Christine: [laughs] He’s like, “Now I get to talk to all these women at once.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Oh my god, this guy. 

Em: He basically says– Oh, I did– I wrote the quote. I’m so smart. Okay, so he says into the walkie-talkie. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: He’s talking to the man. He’s like, “Wherever you are in the house, I know you can hear me.” Um, “Ladies–“ This is the quote, “Ladies are in your rooms now.” And remember, these are like fucking probably 20-year-olds who like just wanted a chance to meet Zak Bagans, and now they’re stuck in basements. 

Christine: Or just like wanted an extra f– extra hundred bucks or something for like an acting gig or whatever. 

Em: Yeah, the holidays are coming up, and they need a TV credit and– 

Christine: Uh-huh. 

Em: –to buy some dinner. Yeah. 

Christine: Love that for them. I would do it. 

Em: He says, “Ladies are in your rooms now. We brought these ladies to you. You can choose which lady you want. Go to the room you like, and you can touch the ladies if you like.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “You can do whatever you want.” 

Christine: Tell me they signed a waiver for this ’cause like, “Touch them”? 

Em: That’s what I’m thinking. I’m like, “Tell me this was a paid gig. Tell me you flip into the union for this. Tell me that like–“ 

Christine: Please. 

Em: Anything. 

Christine: At the least, dude. 

Em: Like, like– And also like they’re not just like in like sweatpants. Like they’re in scantily clad outfits– 

Christine: Yeah, that Zachary picked. 

Em: –and one of them– I don’t know if she was just really– 

Christine: They say “Rebel Spirit.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: They have a– skulls. [laughs] 

Em: One– Like one of them’s like really trying to like be a part of the bit and like is like leaning on the bed as if someone could walk in, and like they’re trying their best– 

Christine: Boy, oh, boy. 

Em: –but like you know that one girl in the basement all by herself– You know they didn’t tell her a single thing or else she’d be scared. 

Christine: She’s like, “Wait a minute.” [laughs] “I don’t think I agreed to this.” 

Em: Well, at one point the girl in the basement– Her name’s McKinley, by the way. Um, she hears heavy footsteps coming down the stairs of the basement, and she’s alone. This is not anyone else. There, there are heavy ass steps. 

Christine: Mm-mmm. Mm-mmm. 

Em: And you can see poor McKinley. She is smiling through the pain. She’s trying so hard to keep it cool, and she’s fully panicked. Um– 

Christine: She’s probably like, “Someone’s fucking with me, but what if they’re not fucking with me?” And they’re like, “We’re not fucking with you.” 

Em: You can s– Her face drops. 

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. 

Em: She’s like, “This was a really funny dare, and now I’m tired. I want to go to bed.” 

Christine: “Now I’m really regretting it.” 

Em: So um, then Zak– This is a quote from him. “If these footsteps are from a malicious spirit, I don’t want to put McKinley in any danger.” You fucking put her in a basement with a man– 

Christine: Hello? 

Em: –who wants to hurt people. What are you talking about? 

Christine: And then said, “Go touch her.” 

Em: Y– 

Christine: “And pick your– Take your pick.” 

Em: “Pick your pick.” Also “I can’t believe I–“ 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: “I wouldn’t dare put her in h– any harm.” Um, so then Zak heads down to her, uses the spirit box, and a voice comes out that says, “I found ya.” 

Christine: Yuck! Sorry, that was loud. 

Em: And McKinley, by the way, at this point is holding on to Zak for dear fucking life. [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. 

Em: She’s like over this. [laughs] 

Christine: Like, “Carry me out of here, dude.” 

Em: She’s over this. Um, meanwhile, an orb happens up in a room, or something happens in a room where Zak has to leave. And so the final quote I want to give you is– 

Christine: [scoffs] 

Em: “McKinley is in full panic mode as I inform her that she’ll have to remain down here by herself.” [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] He’s like, “But I don’t want to put her in any harm’s way. Lock the door.” [laughs] What the fuck? 

Em: [laughs] Um, and keep in mind, I have really blown over the fact that like a lot of people died down there. Like this i– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Like violent men were down there. Um– 

Christine: Right, right. With all the– Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: And so it’s like the, the vibe is very spooky. Um, anyway– 

Christine: And he probably told her all that while he locked the door. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “Just so you know, a bunch of people were killed down here.” 

Em: “Bye!” Um– 

Christine: “Anyway, they’re gonna take their pick.” 

Em: So, so nowadays, the place is owned by David and Charlee. They offer ghost stories here. They do overnight investigations. They have been interviewed by many of the YouTube shows I watched. Um, my favorite quote of theirs was– Uh, they said, “When we walk into the building, every time we come in, we always speak to the ladies. And we, we say, ‘Hello, we’re back,’ and several times, we’ve gotten a very friendly voice saying, ‘Hello,’” which is very precious. 

Christine: Oh, that’s nice. At least they talked to the ladies, not Joseph. 

Em: You’re telling me. So, um, I’m just gonna rattle off some of the ghost things that happen here– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and then I, I promise I’ll leave everyone alone. 

Christine: And they still happen, right? With the new owners. 

Em: Oh, yeah. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: Yeah. They’re very– I don’t know if proud’s the right word, but they are not ashamed of the ghosts here. 

Christine: They like own it. Right, okay. 

Em: They’re– They own it, and they’re like– You can go in and do like overnight investigations, and they’ll– 

Christine: Well, that’s good at least that they like respect the history of it and are not just like, “Oh, nothing happened.” 

Em: Yeah, yeah. They seem like the right people to be living there–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –or working there. They actually work like– They live 300 miles away and every other weekend come back just to let people investigate. 

Christine: Oh, shit. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Wow. 

Em: Um, so other people who have visited here have reported seeing shadow figures darting between rooms and down hallways, um, icy blasts of air for no reason. People have felt fingers twirling in their hair. They felt their ha– their head getting pat– 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: –their butts getting pinched and smacked. People have felt themselves getting choked, pushed. They have woken up with bruises the next day, like fingerprints are on them. People have felt like extreme nausea to the point where they’ve thrown up. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Um, people have felt hands caressing them. They felt breath on their neck. They’ve seen three-clawed scratches show up on their skin. 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: People have seen apparitions of a woman in black walking around or pacing the halls. And they’ve also seen an apparition of a woman carrying a suitcase, which they think might be Elinor before she died ’cause they thought– 

Christine: Mm, trying to leave. Oh my gosh. 

Em: Um, there are also apparitions clear as fucking day. There were some YouTube videos of like a whole-ass person just like walking right behind the person on the camera– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and like it’s like, “Oh, that actually wasn’t someone who works there.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: It was so fucking creepy. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: Um, I can’t say a whole apparition, but like you can see like, like a head is bouncing. 

Christine: Like mov– Oh! 

Em: Like, like a full head. Like it’s like obvious. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: There’s no movie magic on that. Um, they– There are very clear EVPs on recorders in empty rooms. In one YouTube I watched, uh, back-to-back the words that came out of an EVP session were: “they mean you harm”, “watch out for evil”, “I made that sound”, “I’ll affect you.” 

Christine: Ew! 

Em: Like I ought to just– Like tread marks in the ground ’cause I’m driving away so fast. 

Christine: No wonder people are vomiting. I would vomit if I heard that. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Seriously. I’d be like, “Bye. I’m gonna puke.” That’s horrible. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Also like, “Watch out. They mean you harm. Here I go. I could affect you.” Like, wait a minute.” 

Em: Ugh. [sighs] 

Christine: Are you the same person? Are you the person who means me harm? Are you–“ 

Em: Heinous. 

Christine: It’s heinous. 

Em: Um, there is an, an EVP that is apparently clear as day, and people who knew her have confirmed this is her, and they know exactly what she’s saying. Um, the last madam who I wanted you to remember – her name was Ruby– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –and she was a part of a robbery there. Remember? 

Christine: She was the only one you told me not to write down, to be fair. 

Em: Sorry, sorry. 

Christine: [laughs] I wrote down Elinor and Bonita– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –but I do remember all the– all of them. 

Em: Um, well Ruby was the last madam. 

Christine: Yeah, yes. 

Em: There was a robbery there, um, that ended up closing the bank– or closing– well, closing the b-brothel. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: And there is a very clear EVP of her saying, “It’s not in the safe.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: And– 

Christine: “Check the refrigerat– Check the fake refrigerator.” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “Might be in there.” 

Em: “That’s where three of our employees are.” Um– 

Christine: Ah! 

Em: So, uh, and the people who knew her knew that she used to keep her pistol in the safe, and so they’re assuming that this is a residual memory from when she was being robbed and they tried to look for a weapon– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and she said, “It’s not in the safe.” 

Christine: Oh. 

Em: Eugh. Um, and if you were to hear it– 

Christine: Yuck! 

Em: If, if you were to hear it, it sounds– Because it’s from someone from the ‘80s. Like it just– It’s– You know they always make the joke of like, “Where are the ghosts th– from like 2002?” 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: It just sounds like a random person like on the phone or something, just being like, “It’s not in the safe.” 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Like– 

Christine: Ahh. 

Em: Ugh. Um, one guy s– who, who, who I really enjoyed– I think his name was Fisk, Chris Fisk? Um, he said that during an EV session– EVP session– He was not a believer, by the way. I think he like worked or did part-time stuff at the building, and he just stumbled upon people doing an investigation. 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: And so he was kind of sitting around and hearing– 

Christine: “What’s this all about?” [laughs] 

Em: –hearing this go on. He said something, um, about like, “Oh, I left my phone in the car,” and they got an immediate EVP of a voice saying, “Did he just say telephone?” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Like they were– 

Christine: “That motherfucker has a telephone in his car?” [laughs] 

Em: Like they were– 

Christine: They’re probably so confused. 

Em: Yeah. Or like they’re amazed that telephones still exist in this era, and like– and they ca– Yeah, like they can be in a car. But I thought that was so weird. It’s like– 

Christine: That’s really cool. 

Em: “Did he just say telephone?” 

Christine: That’s really cool. And ’cause like you wouldn’t necessarily predict that sentence next. Like you wouldn’t ascribe that to like a random sound. I feel like that’s a very specific– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –phrase. “Did he just say telephone?” 

Em: Um, people hear all kinds of voices, footsteps, thuds. People feel like they’re walking through spiderwebs in certain rooms. People timeslip constantly. They wake up from these time slips feeling like violent and aggressive towards their friends. 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: Um, people have been– 

Christine: That’s Zak. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Punching Aaron in the head. [laughs] 

Em: Uh, people have been chased out of there. They felt something like on their backs when they were running up the stairs. 

Christine: Woof. Uh-uh. 

Em: The exact worst nightmare. People have on the spirit box gotten their own names and then the phrase, “Get out.” 

Christine: Eugh. 

Em: In the basement, like we have heard before, there is a domineering male energy there. Um, and when, uh, interviewers have asked the staff what kind of activity has happened here, a lot of them just use the phrase “just about everything.” 

Christine: [laughs] I mean, it sounds like it. I believe it. 

Em: In, um, in the cribs in the basement, there is an overwhelming fear. There is panic, anxiety, sadness. A mirror– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –flew across the room by itself. Things move down there by themselves all the time. Um, one psychic who went down there literally was quoted saying, “It was more than a creepy feeling. All basements are creepy. This was frightening.” 

Christine: Oh… 

Em: And, um, then a construction worker refuses to go down there anymore because his tools kept going missing. There was one death in the basement where a sex worker actually protected another sex worker from a guy with a knife and ended up being stabbed to death. 

Christine: [gasps] Oh no. 

Em: And so one of the film crews went in and put in like a– like put flowers down for her. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: And then nobody touched the basement for a few days, and when they came back, the, the flowers had been stomped on and shoved under a rock. 

Christine: [gasps] Oh, shit. Oh my god. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Ooh, that’s dark. 

Em: Um, and then one artist was staying in an upstairs room uh, and had like some inspiration to paint Elinor uh, because she’s like this, this woman who passed here and was a madam here– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –but she could not get the face right to save her life. She kept saying like she just felt compelled to paint differently, and she ended up painting this different face every single time she tried. And she apparently did like tens of versions of this painting and could not get it right no matter when– It always ended up being the same face that she didn’t recognize. 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: So she showed it to the property owner, and they were like, “That’s not Elinor. That’s Bonita.” 

Christine: I knew it! Oh my god. I knew it. 

Em: The one who allegedly killed her. 

Christine: Eek! That is so creepy. 

Em: Um, speaking of Elinor and Bonita– 

Christine: Ooh. 

Em: –there’s a psychic there– that, that went there named Kathleen who went on a tour, and after talking to the tour guide and passing along her business card, the brothel like put itself in disarray, like became a complete mess, um– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –after the psychic was there, I guess. Um, the tour guide started closing up and started hearing sounds through the house like the guests had not left yet. And so she thought someone was hiding or like what– got, got lost in the house, um, but she was just there by herself. And then the next day– 

Christine: Mm-mmm. 

Em: –when she opened up (this is a quote), “The place was a mess. The hats that hang on the walls were on the floor lined up down the hallway.” 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: “Pictures that had been on the walls were lying on the floor. The interior doors that were shut and locked were wide open.” And then later, um, that same psychic came back a second time and had this moment in the– 

Christine: Brave. [chuckles] 

Em: [chuckles] –h-had – I know – had this moment in the madam’s quarters where she felt like immense sorrow. She saw the painting of Bonita, um– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and she just like felt really like touched by this. But that night when she went home and went to bed, (this is a quote from her), “I was awoken at 1 a.m. when I felt my cat jump on my bed and pounce on my foot hard. I sat up to shoe her away and then remembered my cat hadn’t come inside that night.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “And then I saw her, Bonita, and she was sitting on the end of my bed. It was the la–“ 

Christine: Biting my foot. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] “It was the lady from the painting. She had followed me home.” 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “I asked her to explain her presence–“ 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “–and she began to answer me in a confident and authoritative tone, saying, ‘Please tell Rudy,’” the property owner at the time, “‘that the Dumas will be okay. Tell him that Bonnie said so.’” 

Christine: [gasps] Bonnie. 

Em: “She looked at me directly in the eyes and held my gaze for a moment with her blazing eyes, and I sat up to touch her, and poof! She completely vanished. The–“ 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: “The only remnants left was the dimpled outline of my bed cover where she had sat upon it and the lingering faint scent of lady’s perfume.” 

Christine: Whoa. 

Em: “With that, I knew that I had to call Rudy immediately. What did Bonita mean? ‘Rudy will save the Dumas.’ From what? And then R-Rudy later said that the Dumas was the focal point of a lawsuit and a legal nightmare–“ 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: “–that was looming. And a few months later, the legal issue was settled in his favor and the ownership of the building came back to him.” So he did end up saving it. 

Christine: There was a mysterious witness named Bonnie. 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] 

Christine: Agh! 

Em: Um, I know this was so long. I have two clips I want to show you– 

Christine: Yeah! 

Em: –and I’m ending on those. I’m ending on those. So that’s– 

Christine: Oh my god. I have like– 

Em: –it. 

Christine: –terrible goosecam. Oh my god. 

Em: For, for all the people who are like Team Christine’s story, I’ve really like edged you guys. I’m so sorry. 

Christine: Oh, come on. It’s like not that long. 

Em: Um, I am going to send you a v– I don’t know if we can show it to other people, but I want you to be able to see it. 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: Um, I took a video of it on the ph– on my phone ’cause you had to like pay to watch this. 

Christine: Uh-oh, right. 

Em: Um, so this is in the basement in one of the cribs. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: And this is a ghost hunting team, and they were getting a bunch of EVPs or a– like a spirit box talking to them. And they kept getting the word, “wait,” and so they’re like, “Wait for what? Wait for what?” Um, and then, and then this happened. It– I just sent it to you. I hope it went through. 

Christine: Watch it now? 

Em: Yeah. 

[silence while Christine watches the video clip. After a few seconds, she leans back quickly away from the computer, her eyes wide in shock.] 

Christine: Jesus fuck, dude. 

Em: Did you watch the whole thing? It does it twice. 

Christine: Oh, it goes again. 

[silence while Christine watches the video clip again. This time, she leans in close to the screen, watching intently before suddenly jumping back again.] 

Christine: [gasps] Eugh-agh! [laughs] Oh, seeing it the second time when it zoomed in on that object. What is that object? 

Em: So, funny you mentioned it. It was a– one of the bottles that they found in the ‘40s that had been left in a wall there– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –and the bottle– So for people who did not get to see it, the, the bottle that is sitting on a dresser literally by itself with no– No one’s touching the dresser. 

Christine: No. 

Em: There’s no reason for it to move. The bottle just goes, bam! Just drops on the dresser. 

Christine: After they ask like, “Wait for what? Your boyfriend to come back?” And then like a few seconds and, boom! 

Em: Yeah, it just slams down. 

Christine: And I love every time one of these clips happen in a ghost show, you just hear “Beep!” because they immediately start swearing. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Like immediate censor. I love it. 

Em: Um, but so that bottle was actually an original bottom of laudanum– 

Christine: Oh? 

Em: –which, um, in the ‘40s was used for abortions– 

Christine: Mm. 

Em: –and was also used a lot by the sex workers to die by suicide. 

Christine: Oh god. 

Em: Um, although there is co– there’s talk about maybe it was not actively intentionally meant for that– 

Christine: Yeah, because I think it was also used as a medication, laudanum. 

Em: It was used as a medication, but three teaspoons of it was a lethal dose. 

Christine: Ohh. 

Em: So you had to take very little of it, and some people might not have known and accidentally been poisoning themselves. 

Christine: And you don’t want a bottle of that spilling around on your nightstand. 

Em: No, but the fact that it’s also empty is like, “Where did it go? Or like was that just shared with a bunch of people or what?” But– 

Christine: Well, probably if it was like sitting there for decades, it probably evaporated. 

Em: Evaporated. You’re right. Um, so anyway, I thought that was creepy enough to show you is that a bottle literally just full-blown moved itself. 

Christine: Ugh. I don’t love that. 

Em: And then I’m sending you a link to, uh, a YouTube clip, and I want you to go to the 35:00 on the dot minute mark. 35:00. 

Christine: Got it. Here I go. 

Em: And basically, um, this is a guy– the guy I said I liked earlier, Mr. Fisk. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: He was, again, a non-believer, and this is the thing that made him believe. He stopped by this investigation where he did not, um– 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: He, he did not believe in this shit, and then he saw a picture that someone took– 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: –of a random guy. They just took a picture of a guy who was working there, and that’s what they got in the picture. 

Christine: Okay. And we’ll put the links in the, um, show notes with, with timestamp. 

Em: Yes, this is Paranormal Files, by the way, if anyone wants to go look at it. Paranormal Files. 

Christine: On YouTube? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Okay. 35 sec– or 35 minutes. 

[silence while Christine watches the video clip] 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: Is that not the fucking craziest thing? 

Christine: Hey. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Hey, that’s fucking horrid. Hey, stop zooming in, show. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: The amount of times you need to zoom in and then zoom out and then zo– Oh my god. 

Em: I literally– And like part of me is– 

Christine: With the musical stings, I’m gonna die. 

Em: –part of me is “That has to be like a costume or something.” But like the fact that he’s not a believer. He was like, “That was what made me a believer.” He was like, “Everyone get out of this fucking house.” 

Christine: “Get out. We’re leaving.” He literally s– 

Em: He literally said that. He was like, “Get–“ 

Christine: “Hey, bye.” This is the– 

Em: So– 

Christine: –scariest photo I have ever seen. 

Em: [chuckles] So for those who can’t see, there– 

Christine: Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. 

Em: He was in, in the middle of an investigation or with an investigative team, and they were taking just random pictures around the house to get, I guess, like some like baseline shots. And they took a picture of one of the guys on the team– 

Christine: That– 

Em: –and when the picture developed, there is like not even a question of a doubt a full face in that guy’s face, staring at you and smiling really intensely. 

Christine: She has huge eyes, like her face like this– [Christine tilts her head back slightly, looking down with wide, intense-looking eyes.] Like horror show. 

Em: It’s like– You don’t have to guess. It looks like a person in a costume is standing in the picture with him. 

Christine: You see her eyes. Like, like almost like white face paint or like makeup. 

Em: Like a clown. Like it looks like she’s like– 

Christine: Yeah, it looks clownish, but like– Oh, it looks like horror-struck. Oh! Oh, oh, oh, I hate that. 

Em: Right? 

Christine: Eugh. And it like– Her, her face is like– It almost looks like old-timey ’cause like her– It looks like her hair is pulled back or like– 

Em: Yeah, or like ’cause it was kind of like an older time maybe like being that pale was a thing– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –you know. But it’s– 

Christine: I mean, not to immediately call this out, but like it almost looks like her nose is like missing, which I think– Isn’t that a s-s– thing of syphilis? Isn’t that what happens when you get syphilis? 

Em: Oh… 

Christine: That your nose cartilage starts to–? I mean, I don’t know. That’s kind of a stretch maybe, but– 

Em: I like how you’re like, “Not to call her out. She’s not– She’s– Okay–” [chuckles] 

Christine: “Let me immediately diagnose her with my non-medical degree.” But like it looks like a horror show. Like it looks like a skeletal– like a– 

Em: Well, people in the comments are saying she looks like a corpse. 

Christine: Yeah, it looks like a corpse. Her eyes are like wide. It looks like she saw something horrible. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Oh, hey, this is really awful. I can’t stop looking at it. 

Em: Yeah, I saw that at 3 in the morning, and I went, “Okay, not going to bed tonight.” Um– 

Christine: Bye, I would not be able to deal with that. No, no. 

Em: Anyway, I thought that was a great way to end. Um– 

Christine: Eugh! 

Em: –that’s the Dumas Brothel. 

Christine: Please look at the p-photo. Maybe we can link the photo somewhere ’cause like that’s horrid. [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, it’s Paranormal Files, uh, the Dumas Hotel, and it’s 30 minute– 35 minutes like on the dot. 

Christine: Oh my god. 

Em: Um, but it’s– 

Christine: I like how they circle it. I’m like, “Yeah, I see it.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: “You don’t need to put a big circle around it. She’s right there.” 

Em: But like I feel like they were like, “This– You clearly– We’ll have to circle it because you’re going to think this is a random person in the picture with us.” 

Christine: It’s a like another investigator, yeah. Yeah. Eugh. 

Em: It’s a full-ass person, and she looks horrified. It’s almost like we’re seeing her last moments. 

Christine: Yes! That’s what it looks like. She just saw something– 

Em: Eugh. [sighs] 

Christine: –and got startled to death. 

Em: Like I’m– I like can’t look her in the eyes. 

Christine: I can’t– 

Em: I feel like she’s gonna show up in my house. 

Christine: It’s, it’s actually like really unsettling. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: It’s like actually really– You know what this reminds me of? The only time I ever kind of felt like this– Maybe not the only time, but one of the times was that picture of that little boy in that one house. 

Em: Oh, the Amityville horror. 

Christine: Amityville, where there’s that little boy– 

Em: Yeah. He’s leaning over the stairs. 

Christine: –like behind the stairwell who’s like looking at you. Like that I feel like is the only time I’ve ever felt so startled by an image. 

Em: It’s absolutely horrid. Yeah. 

Christine: [shivers] 

Em: Um, anyway, I, I really went down a rabbit hole, and I was trying to fit as much in as I could. So um, I hope everyone was fine with that. But I– 

Christine: Oh my god, that was so scary. 

Em: That– By the way, that picture alone makes me not want to visit. Like it accidentally did backwards marketing where like– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –I’m like, “I can’t be there now.” 

Christine: I’ll be honest, I want to go now. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] Part of me is like, “Oh, I still have to do it in my 50 states. Maybe I should go take a visit.” 

Christine: Yes! 

Em: And I’m like, “I–" Maybe on the world’s busiest day. Um– 

Christine: Take a bunch of selfies ’cause I want to see if she shows up. [laughs] 

Em: Oh my god. Um, anyway– 

Christine: Oh! Ooh! That’s horrible. 

Em: All right, beat that with your story. [laughs] 

Christine: Seriously, I give up. Honestly, I quit. Um, that was crazy. That was crazy. 

Em: What would you like to do for intermission? 

Christine: Um, first, I’d like to pee, and then I don’t really have anything prepared. 

Em: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Christine: Do you want to brainstorm while I go pee? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Okay. 

Em: I’ll also pee. 

Christine: And if I come– If I don’t come back– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –somebody’s been waiting for me. [laughs] 

Em: The door slammed again, yeah. 

Christine: Ahh! 

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Christine’s Story – Erin Patterson and the Mushroom Murders 

Christine: Wow, folks, that was quite a Yappy Hour we just did, and it was a lot of [sighs] intense conversation. So we’re back– 

Em: [chuckles] For more intense conversations. 

Christine: We r– We suddenly– Yeah, we suddenly realized what we were doing, and we were like, “Oh, shit. We b-better do the episode,” so we’re back for the episode. Um, I have a doozy today. Okay, Em. This is the story of Erin Patterson and the Mushroom Murders. 

Em: Literally, thank you. 

Christine: You’re welcome. 

Em: I don’t know what’s about to happen, but it sounds– When you’ve got a name like “The Mushroom Murders,” I’m– 

Christine: It’s a doozy. 

Em: –I’m locked in. 

Christine: Do you remember this? This was within the last couple years. 

Em: No, I’ve literally never heard this before. No. 

Christine: Okay, so let’s get into it. Erin, E-R-I-N, Patterson was a 48-year-old woman living in Leongatha [pronounced “Lee-on-gah-thah] – I hope I’m saying that right – a rural town in Victoria, Australia. 

Em: Cool. 

Christine: She was separated from her husband, Simon Patterson, and shared two children with him. In mid-July of 2023, she invited her ex, Simon, and her in-laws, which were his parents and his aunt and uncle, to a lunch at her house. Gail and Don Patterson were Simon’s parents, so her parents-in-law. Then, we’ve got Heather and Ian Wilkinson, who were Simon’s aunt and uncle. Simon was invited as part of the lunch too, and, uh, Erin explained that she wanted to discuss her health issues with the family. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: But the evening before, Simon, her ex, sent her a message, and it said, “Sorry, I feel too uncomfortable about coming to the lunch with you, Mom, Dad, Ian, and Heather tomorrow, but I’m happy to talk about your health and the implications of that at another time.” 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: She– 

Em: And Simon was her ex? 

Christine: Her ex, yeah. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: They were technically still married, but they were separated. 

Em: I see. Okay. And they had kids together, so it– 

Christine: Two kids, yeah. 

Em: It sounds like she had something serious to tell him. 

Christine: Correct. 

Em: Okay, got it. 

Christine: And she had kind of made that clear. She’s like, “I want to talk to everyone about–“ And she had hinted at some health issues recently, so they weren’t totally shocked by this. They just didn’t know what the actual conversation would be about. She was not happy with this message, and she responded, “That’s really disappointing. I’ve spent many hours this week preparing lunch for tomorrow, which has been exhausting in light of the issues I’m facing. And I spent a small fortune on beef eye fillet to make beef Wellingtons–“ 

Em: [groans] 

Christine: “–because I wanted it to be a special meal as I may not be able to host a lunch like this again for some time.” 

Em: Aw. 

Christine: So starts off rough. And despite the fact that Simon did not come to the lunch, Erin went ahead with the plan anyway. She served individual beef Wellington pastries, each containing beef pastry and mushrooms, with side of mashed potatoes and green beans. She told her guests that the news she wanted to share is that she had recently been diagnosed with cancer, and she said she was seeking their advice on how to tell her children. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: Yeah. [sighs] So they saw it more as like a family meeting rather than, um, just like a casual social lunch. 

Em: Right. 

Christine: So they, they spent time with her. Erin had reportedly sent her children out to a movie before the guests arrived, so that they wouldn’t be around for the conversation, and the lunch proceeded without incident. They said goodbye, and they headed home. That night, [sighs] within af– hours of leaving, all four guests became violently ill with severe vomiting, diarrhea– 

Em: Ooh. 

Christine: –and their conditions deteriorated rapidly overnight. 

Em: So I’m– Can– Am I allowed to make a guess here? 

Christine: Please. 

Em: Am I right? 

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] 

Em: Okay. Well, then I’m not gonna guess. I, I– I’ll instead say, um– I don’t know. Beef Wellington’s one of my favorite foods. So I would have also been sick. 

Christine: I was gonna make you guess what the meal was. Yeah. 

Em: Beef Wellington is, um, on my, um, last, last row meal request. 

Christine: Well, uh, it’s perfectly apt for this conversation then. 

Em: Mm. [laughs] It– 

Christine: Um, have you ever made it? 

Em: I certainly couldn’t make it, but I– It’s shocking how few places in LA serve it. I think it’s one of those like dying dishes that no one makes anymore. Um– 

Christine: Isn’t that the Gordon Ramsay special? Or am I wrong about that? 

Em: He does make a beef Wellington that is famous, yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: But, uh, anyway, all to say I would be just as sick as these people if you put any beef Wellington in front of me. 

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was interested because– So RedHanded, um, which they just do a great show– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: – I, uh, listened to both of their parts on this story, and they talked about like making beef Wellington. And I’m like– I’ve not made it, but– 

Em: It’s hard. 

Christine: –it is hard ’cause you use like a, r– a, uh– What do you call that? The long cut of beef? Like the– 

Em: Um– 

Christine: Whatever. 

Em: It’s like a roll. 

Christine: Yeah, that thing. And then you’re supposed to cook it like to the right temperature, medium rare-ish, like throughout. It’s j– It seems like a tough thing. She however did, um, individual, which isn’t really a normal thing, I think. I think you’re not– It’s not usually like– 

Em: No, usually it’s like– It’s looks like a tiny little loaf of bread, and you have– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Right. Yeah, so she did a little bit differently. Either way, the following morning, Simon received a call from his dad. Remember, he had not attended the lunch. His dad calls him, Don. Don says he and his wife Gail were sick and needed to go to the hospital. He added that Heather and Ian were sick as well. On the way to the hospital, Gail asked her son, Simon, whether Erin had mismatched dishware because she had used a different colored plate from everyone else at the lunch. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: Which is kind of a wild thing to say right out the gate, but– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: ’Cause it’s like I– And RedHanded made a good point too of like a lot of dishware comes in sets of four to be fair, you know. So like– 

Em: Okay, RedHanded. Okay. 

Christine: You would maybe take the extra plate, right? But it is a little bit odd. 

Em: And to clock it so quick. It’s like either you noticed right away– 

Christine: Where was that– Exactly. 

Em: –or you don’t even realize what– how profound what you’re saying is. [chuckles] 

Christine: Yeah, subcon– or subconsciously it stuck until, you know, and you didn’t even realize. Yeah. It’s, it’s just odd. He said he wasn’t sure, but perhaps it was mismatched tableware that was the reason. Um, they get to the hospital. Dr. Chris Webster – he becomes pivotal in this story. He asked the patients– Uh, he’s alarmed, right, all four of them. At first, he thinks maybe food poisoning, but the way– the, the level of their sickness is pretty shocking. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: So he asked him about their recent meals, and he pretty quickly suspects amatoxin poisoning, which is what is caused by death cap mushrooms. 

Em: I was gonna say, was it a type of mushroom that she shouldn’t have used? Okay. 

Christine: Type of mushroom. Death cap mushrooms are responsible for approximately 90% of fatal mushroom poisonings worldwide. 

Em: Ooh. 

Christine: But they’re quite rare in Australia. So he’s immediately alarmed. Dr. Webster tells the family he needs to speak to whomever made the meal ASAP, so Simon called Erin, his ex. She said, “Yeah, you know, I’ve had gastrointestinal issues since the lunch yesterday and all morning, and I think I’m gonna come in and get an IV at the very least.” 

Em: ‘kay. 

Christine: Erin presents at the hospital, and Dr. Webster rushes out. He hears she’s there in the waiting room. He rushes out, said something along the lines of um, “I’ve been waiting to speak to you.” And she just immediately looks alarmed and shocked, and she says, “It’s not a big deal. I’m just a gastro patient. Like what’s the big deal?” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And he’s like, “I need you to know you might have been– you might be affected by a f– a potentially fatal toxin.” 

Em: And also like, like if anyone dies, e-even in a world where it was not intentional, that’s a– 

Christine: Totally. 

Em: –manslaughter charge, babe. Like you’re in trouble. 

Christine: Totally. He’s like, “We need to figure this out,” and not even if you’re in trouble, but like, “You need to tell us what’s going on so that we can fix this before it becomes fatal.” He tells her, “We sh– We need to admit you for treatment and observation,” and she says, “Um, I have to go actually feed my dog.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: And they’re like– [chuckles] 

Em: “Gotta blast!” Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: “Bye?” Okay. She says she has to go home to feed her pets and pack a ballet bag for her daughter. Uh, in CCTV footage, you can actually see a nurse trying to stop her from leaving, like is walking up and putting a hand on her shoulder and being like, “Please, like, we need you to stay.” 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: She is determined to get out of there. She’s like, “Absolutely not.” And, uh– 

Em: What did she think was gonna happen? Why, why– The second you walk into a hospital after that you have to assume– 

Christine: She came voluntarily. That’s the other thing is like nobody tricked her into coming. She came voluntarily. Basically, Simon called and said, “Hey, the doctors are really worried about you because everyone’s sick, and they think it might be food poisoning or maybe even like a fatal toxin.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: And she goes, “Yeah, you’re right. I should come in.” And then she comes in, and they say, “Hey, we think it might be mushrooms from wherever they were sourced. Where did you get the mushrooms?” She’s like, “I have to go. Bye.” 

Em: Oh boy. 

Christine: She peaces out. One thing that made me laugh, uh, [chuckles] was, like I said, she had said, “Oh, I’ve had gastrointestinal distress. I’ve had diarrhea all morning.” She is in that CCTV footage boldly wearing a set of white pants. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And a number of like internet folks have pointed this out and like, yeah, obviously it doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but it’s like, “Girl–“ 

Em: It means something. 

Christine: [chuckles] “Are you like– Why are you wearing white pants? And you’re saying, ‘Oh, I had diarrhea all day and like I’ve been barely able to go anywhere–‘” 

Em: No, even like a– 

Christine: It’s like, “Why are you wearing white pants?” 

Em: –even like a heather gray, sports gray sweatpant would be– 

Christine: Rough choice. 

Em: –scary. You, you go black. 

Christine: Rough choice. 

Em: You go black every time. 

Christine: Yeah, in that situation. So after Erin left against medical advice, Dr. Webster made what is now a– an infamous call to Triple Zero, the emergency number. He tells dispatch that he needs to track down a woman who could potentially be afflicted with fatal toxins from a mushroom. It’s unclear in the call– because he’s very professional. He sticks to the facts. But he had already begun to suspect Erin had a little more to do with this than– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –maybe you initially realized. 

Em: When you, when you run out and there’s fire behind your heels ’cause you are trying to get out as fast as you can? Yeah. 

Christine: ’Cause you heard the word mushrooms and your eyes went really wide? Yeah. Yeah. 

Em: Yeah, you got to suspect something. 

Christine: It’s– 

Em: At the very least that it was accidental, but something happened. 

Christine: But something might have happened because he’s like, “We gotta track this woman down.” Um, the reason he had gotten initially a bit suspicious is that, that this was more nefarious than just an accident is that he had asked where she’d gotten the mushrooms and she said, “Woolworth’s.” 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: And he was like, “I smell bullshit.” [chuckles] Obviously, like Wool– 

Em: They would not sell poison. 

Christine: Woolworth’s is not selling death cap mushrooms. And also he said like, “I might have bel–“ He insinuated like, “I might have believed her if she had been foraging for mushrooms and it was an accident, whatever.” But like Woolworth’s is a wild choice. If you’re gonna say, um, “Oh, I accidentally came across poison mushrooms,” you’d mention the foraging. If you had been foraging, you’d be like, “Oops. What did I do?” 

Em: Or like, “Someone gifted me these from when they–“ 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “–went foraging,” yeah. 

Christine: Some mysterious– Yeah. And so she said Woolworth’s, and he was like, “Hm. Okay, so this is not just like someone who’s admitting to amateur foraging or anything like that.” The Woolworth’s comment was a huge red flag. Two hours later, Erin reappeared at the hospital. She claimed she’d gone home and accidentally fallen asleep. Evidence would later show that she’d been driving around aimlessly on the highway for two hours, probably like racking her brain for what to do. 

Em: For sure. 

Christine: Um, I’ve been in that mode where you’re just like driving, a-and you’re like, “What?” I mean, not about this, but– 

Em: Just in a, in a pan– [chuckles] No? Um– 

Christine: No, not, not quite. 

Em: No, I could imagine just like being in a panic, just being like, “What do I do? What do I do? What do I do?” 

Christine: Yeah, like circling, like trying to get your brain going. Um, so she comes in. She’s like, “Oops, sorry. I fell asleep.” Uh, now we know that wasn’t the case. Um, upon arriving the second time, Erin told doctors she was feeling much better and that there probably wasn’t much to worry about because she’d actually given the leftovers of the beef Wellington to her kids, and they appeared to be fine. 

Em: Hello? 

Christine: Hello. 

Em: And she actually did feed it to them? 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: Wow. She went full monty on this. Okay. 

Christine: Well, we don’t know. We– The kids have later said they ate leftovers, but we’re not sure. She might not have fed the to– But that was the story she told that yes, she fed the leftovers of the be– Which another point, like even if it was just food poisoning and not like a toxic– a fatal mushroom. Why would you– You throw that away. Even if it was just like– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –basic diarrhea, you know– 

Em: It’s like– 

Christine: –even if it was just mild diarrhea, you shouldn’t be– 

Em: Enough of that. 

Christine: –feeding that to anybody. 

Em: I, I’m sure one of her arguments was like, “Well, beef Wellington’s really hard to make–“ 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: “–so like I just was gonna really make it work ’cause that was not worth the time.” 

Christine: Yeah, I guess. So they said like, “Hey, we just told you that this could be fatal,” and she’s like, “Don’t worry, I scraped the mushrooms off because my kids don’t like mushrooms.” And still like– 

Em: Hello? 

Christine: –“What are you thinking?” 

Em: Yeah. No, thank you. No, no, no. 

Christine: And they don’t even know if that’s the case yet. Like we don’t know. That was just a guess that it was the mushrooms. It could be the beef, you know? Who knows? 

Em: She is just digging herself a hole ’cause I feel like– 

Christine: Yes. 

Em: –couldn’t– She could have left the kids out of this, but now they’re gonna be panicked being like, “Where are your children?” 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: “You might have just killed your children.” [chuckles] 

Christine: So she’s– They say, “You need to go get your kids out of school and bring them here for observation, for assessment,” and she says, “No, I don’t want to scare them.” And the doctor, who’s basically had enough of this, um, he’s reported to have responded with words to the effect of, “Do you want scared kids or dead kids?” 

Em: Ooh, good for him. 

Christine: “We’re not fucking around here.” All the while, Don, Gail, Ian, and Heather were on the decline. Doctors needed to know where Erin had gotten these mushrooms. She claimed she used a mix of mushrooms for the meal. Some of the– The fresh ones were from Woolworth’s, and the dried mushrooms were from an Asian supermarket. They called local infectious diseases physician, Professor Rhonda Stuart. She’s immediately concerned that this is gonna be a public health risk, that if, if a, a supermarket were inadvertently selling death cap mushrooms that this was gonna be a widespread issue. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So she shows up and is like, “You need to tell us where the supermarket was. Do you remember anything about the area, what neighborhood?” She gives a few suburbs, um, but she says, “I don’t–“ 

Em: She can’t remember a– out of a few suburbs? She can’t come up with like– 

Christine: Can’t remember. 

Em: Wild. It’s kind of like when, um– Well, it’s not, but it, it’s– I– It’s making me think of when certain restaurants like had to like pull their stock on like lettuce because of like E. coli or something– 

Christine: Yeah. 

Em: –and like there’s a huge frenzy because everyone could be getting poisoned. People could die. But it’s like– 

Christine: ’Cause it just like spreads. Yeah. 

Em: –it’s absolutely taken so, so seriously. Like she– I don’t think she thought through her, her backup alibi here. Like she’s– 

Christine: No, she really did not. And she’s– 

Em: Like she’s causing a citywide panic. 

Christine: Yeah, she’s one of these people that like thinks she’s real bright and then– And she is smart in a lot of ways. Like she’s an air traffic controller. She’s passed the test to do that. She’s a smart woman, but she thinks she’s gonna fool everyone, and it’s like– 

Em: It’s wild– 

Christine: She’s already shocked that they figured out the mushrooms so quickly, that it’s a poison mushroom. Like she– The way she reacted like, “Uh…” Like totally caught– deer caught in headlights, was like, “I have to leave.” 

Em: Like just totally– 

Christine: Like she panicked. 

Em: Like she didn’t think she’d get confronted once at all? 

Christine: No. 

Em: That’s crazy. 

Christine: And she’s like, “Well, I have a d– I have diarrhea–“ 

Em: [laughs] “Gotta go!” 

Christine: “–despite my clean white pants.” I mean– I don’t know. 

Em: Wow, okay. 

Christine: So she goes to speak with Erin. She’s like, “You need to tell us. This could be a disaster for the public.” Erin is reluctant to speak with her. She keeps like not– She keeps evading the question. She said, “Oh, it was months ago. I have no clue where they came from,” doesn’t seem particularly concerned. Um, so then the professor, Rhonda Stuart, says, “Have you been mushrooming?” And Erin said, “No.” 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Later, Erin claimed she didn’t know what this meant. And it’s like– She’s like, “I didn’t know it meant foraging for mushrooms.” And it’s like, “Well, what do you think? You’re on like a– You’re taking shrooms?“ 

Em: Like you’re tripping balls? Yeah. [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. Like what else could it mean? Ugh, whatever. Fine. You didn’t know what it meant. So she says no. 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: [sighs] Six days after the lunch, it’s August 4, 2023. Both Heather Wilkinson and Gail Patterson pass away in the hospital. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Don Patterson died the following day on August 5, 2023. Doctors tried everything. They tried a liver trans– They actually did a liver transplant, and, um, all three of them passed away. Ian Wilkinson spent weeks in the hospital. This is, um, Simon’s uncle. And by the way, he was the one who knew her the least, which is so crazy. Like the aunt and uncle didn’t know her very well. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: The parents-in-law were– They’ve– They’d had an ongoing relationship with her for years, but the aunt and uncle were just like, “Oh, we were happy to be invited. Like, we just–“ 

Em: “Just happy to be here.” 

Christine: “–were there to help out.” 

Em: So like nobody’s safe. 

Christine: Nobody’s safe. 

Em: Oy. 

Christine: Um, so Ian, [sighs] he spent weeks in the hospital. He was actually put into a medically induced coma. 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: Yeah, for months, and– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –he actually survived. I’m sure she did not like that because he woke up and was able to tell them all about h– the lunch and everything that went down. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: He woke up. He survived, they said, against all odds, but he had to learn that his wife of 50 years, his sister-in-law, and his brother-in-law had all passed away. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: And to this day, he continues to suffer long-term health complications. I saw somewhere that he called himself “half alive” because he had lost– 

Em: [gasps] 

Christine: –his wife. I know. It’s terrible. 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: And he’s a pastor, um, and he continues to– What do you call it? Preach in church. And he’s– 

Em: Truck along? 

Christine: –only ever spoken about this with like sadness, and he doesn’t like berate her or blame her. It’s pretty wild. But he just– Clearly, this is such a tragedy. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Thankfully, the children were confirmed to be unharmed. So for whatever she said, um, she thankfully did not do anything to them. But again, it’s like, so she’s fine and her kids are fine– 

Em: I know. 

Christine: –and everyone else is– I-i– It’s shady. 

Em: I know. 

Christine: August 5, 2023, investigators searched Erin’s home. They took multiple phones and a tablet. And on the tablet, they found photos of kitchen scales with mushrooms on them. They then took these scales and tested them, and they tested positive for death cap mushrooms. 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: Uh-huh. There were also pictures of a dehydrator with mushrooms in it, and, uh, when– 

Em: It’s a full working lab over here. 

Christine: I mean, really? And why are you taking pictures of all this? 

Em: [sighs] 

Christine: When asked if she ever owned a dehydrator, she said no. So they were like, “Hmm”– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: –but they didn’t tell her they had the pictures. They didn’t want to kind of show their hand. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: So they said, “Well, we found this manual,” and they had found a manual. And she said, “Well, yeah, I collect manuals.” 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: Okay, sure. 

Christine: For appliances you don’t own? That’s so fucking weird. What are you talking about? You collect manuals? 

Em: It’d be one thing if she was like a 50-year-old dad who had a big ziplock of all the manuals– 

Christine: On the spectrum. 

Em: –of the things in the house. 

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Em: And probably, I mean, someone who likes to read the manuals, I’m sure, uh, for fun. 

Christine: But like to collect them and say, “I’ve never actually owned one. I just have the manual”? I mean– 

Em: Yeah, to not own it is– 

Christine: –what are you talking about? 

Em: To not own it i– or to say you don’t own it is like, “Then how did it even get here?” 

Christine: Why? Why? And, uh, I want to add, too, like the caveat that technically, devil’s advocate, like just because there were death cap mushroom traces on the scale doesn’t mean she necessarily knew at the time they were death cap mushrooms. Right? 

Em: Right. 

Christine: So like– But they were shown to have been holding death cap mushrooms at some point. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: So when police checked her bank statement, wouldn’t you know it, four days after the lunch with the family when– basically right as they’re about to pass away, she had paid through (they were able to see through her statements) paid for a visit to the dump, where she was also caught on camera, and she was dumping a food dehydrator at the dump. 

Em: [chuckles] Whoopsies. 

Christine: Right. They pull it from the dump and find traces of death cap mushroom in the dehydrator. 

Em: I mean, this is a slam dunk, huh? 

Christine: I mean, really. It’s absurd. On November 2, 2023, Erin Patterson was arrested on three counts of murder and five counts of attempted murder after it was discovered that her ex, Simon, had been ill and hospitalized for a mysterious stomach illness months earlier. So the accusation was not only did you kill these three people, attempt to kill Ian who survived, but also like at least once tried to kill your husband, uh, in the past. 

Em: Like it was like a, like a practice round maybe or something. 

Christine: Like an o– Or like a failed attempt, you know? 

Em: Yeah. Or if I do it to him first and not everyone all at once, then it maybe looks less suspicious if it’s scattered or something or spread apart. 

Christine: Could be. 

Em: I don’t know. 

Christine: Although he, he did– We’ll get to his testimony. He did almost die like on multiple occasions. So I think– 

Em: Oh. 

Christine: –I think she was attempting this. And, you know, one of the theories is that she was just aiming at him the whole time, and when he didn’t show up for lunch, she was like, “Well, now everyone else is collateral damage, and that’s your punishment,” I guess? I mean, I don’t really know the logic there. 

Em: That’s crazy. Wow. 

Christine: Yeah. But I mean– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –think about that suffering of like your parents and your– I mean, it’s just really sick. 

Em: I– Uh, wow. 

Christine: And the kids are in the middle. I mean– 

Em: That’s so sad. 

Christine: It is. So she was arrested, um, for both murder and attempted murder. So now I want to get into the trial and the evidence, like both circumstantial evidence, including the white pants [chuckles], which isn’t really evidence– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –but it’s more like internet side eyes. But, uh, I want to start the day that everyone was hospitalized. Remember, she claimed like she’d been sick all day, since the lunch. She spent that morning with terrible diarrhea, etc. She needed– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –an IV from the hospital. Well, turns out she had actually taken her son to a flight lesson 90 minutes away and back– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –and, uh, she only stopped one time during this trip. So like if she were having constant, you know, stomach issues, questionable. 

Em: She would still be at the airport. [chuckles] She– 

Christine: You’d think, right? You’d think you wouldn’t get very far or at least like make multiple stops. 

Em: Lest you forget when we were on tour and I had horrible food poisoning. There was– There’s no stopping you from– 

Christine: There’s nothing, especially– 

Em: There’s– 

Christine: –if you’re wearing white pants, my dude. If that was an accident, you made a big mistake. 

Em: But there’s– And there’s no “well, let me just drive 90 minutes in this direction and hope for the best.” It’s “we are–“ 

Christine: You are– 

Em: “–stopped.” [chuckles] 

Christine: –down for the count. So when they show this– When they see this footage of her stopping at the service station, um, she only goes into the bathroom for nine seconds, and they’re like, “Well, so it doesn’t even seem like you went to the bathroom.” And she said, “Well, no, actually what happened was I had to stop like for an emergency bathroom break on– in the bush, like on the side of the road. And so I had used like some napkins and stuff to clean myself up. And when we got to the gas station, I went inside to throw away like the paper towels and napkins and stuff.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: It’s like, okay. They asked her son, and he cl– he doesn’t remember stopping on the side of the road. Then again, he doesn’t remember stopping at the gas station either– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –and he’s like a kid. So it’s like– But you’d think at least if your mom was like shitting on the side of the road– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –you’d have like slight memory. I mean, again, I don’t know. It’s a kid. I don’t want to put him on the spot like that, but– 

Em: I– I’ll put my mom on the spot. I still remember when she peed on the side of the road. 

Christine: [chuckles] 

Em: I still remember it. 

Christine: Yeah. I mean, listen, it’s something you– I feel like it’s hard to forget. 

Em: It’s like when it happens, it, it’s gotta happen. It will be [chuckles] in the Zeitgeist forever. 

Christine: There’s no stopping it, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And so he doesn’t remember stopping on the side of the road, for what that’s worth. Um, what’s more is after she spends nine seconds in the bathroom and then comes out, which is like if you were peeing, you didn’t even wash your hands for long enough, you know? 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Um, she leaves, and she goes and buys a sweet chili chicken wrap from the gas station. 

Em: With her dirty bathroom hands. 

Christine: Isn’t that– But, but to– 

Em: I know. I hear you. 

Christine: You have diarrhea, food poisoning. You’re gonna order a sweet chili chicken wrap from a gas station? 

Em: Literally, it– 

Christine: Bullshit. 

Em: You might as well get fish sticks or something from like a weird– uh, from a gas station. 

Christine: Literally. [laughs] From the little rotator, yeah. 

Em: Yeah. Oh my god. Yuck. Okay. 

Christine: It’s just a wild choice to me. I’m like, I– This just all feels ridiculous to me. Um– 

Em: All in white pants, yeah. 

Christine: And– Yeah. And this is– Again, like obviously this doesn’t prove anything, okay? But like– I know people have probably eaten worse stuff during food poisoning bout but like– 

Em: Mm. In my spirit, it proves something. 

Christine: Something’s up. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Erin appears calm. She doesn’t seem frenzied. Like nothing seems wrong in the footage. So prosecutors contrasted the footage like with that– with the claims that Erin made about having diarrhea all day, being so sick she needed an IV, you know, all this, going to– Like she, she admits at the time she needed to be hospitalized and get IV, and it’s like, “Okay, clearly not.” The prosecution argued the footage was ins– inconsistent with the severity of illness she had described. Uh, she claimed that she had stopped on the side of the road, but that couldn’t be proven obviously. Now, as for foraging mushrooms, she was asked again at a later point, not “Have you been mushrooming?”, but “Have you been foraging for mushrooms or foraging for anything?” She said, “No, I’ve never done that.” Okay. 

Em: Okay. [chuckles] 

Christine: In May 2022, records show– Now, this is where things get c– a little specific, so I have to use my words carefully. In May of 2022, records showed that Erin had visited a website– by the way, using Bing, searching on Bing. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Please. 

Em: “Ask Jeeves ‘how to kill my husband.’” 

Christine: [laughs] What’s the one my stepdad uses? DuckDuckGo. It’s just embarrassing. 

Em: Never heard of that one. 

Christine: I know. It’s– That one doesn’t store your information, so o– I’m like, “Okay–“ 

Em: Oh, okay, Tim. 

Christine: “–but like your iPhone does, so whatever. [laughs] Like, “Okay, you do whatever’s gonna make you feel better.” So she goes to Bing uh, and she searches for a website called iNaturalist (with a– like a little “i”), uh, iNaturalist, which featured a posting about death cap mushrooms having been spotted in a particular area called Loch. Now, only ten days after this was posted– And we cannot prove she read that posting. All they can prove is that she went onto the website during the time that that was posted on the website. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: So there’s no way to prove she actually read what was on there. But the posting was by this, um, woman named Christine who said, “Hey, I just spotted this mushroom, uh, in this spot,” even like geotagged it because she was a for– a former, um, poison expert, and she said– 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: She goes like on hikes and stuff, and when she finds something dangerous or whatever she, she takes it. She puts it in like a doggy bag and throws it away, so that nobody accidentally picks it. 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: So she puts the tag there for all the other nature people, iNaturalists– 

Em: To be like, “Don’t come near here.” 

Christine: Yeah. Or like “Keep an eye out,” because we don’t want random people wandering and like eating a mushroom off the ground and it being poisonous, so. And because they’re so rare in Australia, it’s like, “Oh, if you see these, like you should mark it.” And, you know, being someone concerned about public safety, public health, they pinned it. Well, we can’t prove she read that post, but she did go to the website and, uh– during the time that that was posted– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –and ten days later, Erin’s phone showed her traveling from her town to the area called Loch and staying in that area for about an hour. 

Em: Just an hour. Just a quick, quick trip. 

Christine: Just a quick, quick tr– out. She spent nine seconds in the gas station bathroom– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: [laughs] –but she spent an hour. 

Em: Yeah, that’s a great point actually. Great point. 

Christine: I’m just saying. Okay, so another sighting of the death cap mushroom, this time in an area called Outtrim, was posted May 22. The following day, her phone showed her driving to Loch again, then to Outtrim, then back to her town, where she stopped at a store to buy a dehydrator. 

Em: Girl. [chuckles] 

Christine: Like, please. 

Em: Girl. [chuckles] 

Christine: Please. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: Two months later, she hosted a lunch that ended up killing three of the guests. Circumstantial and phone evidence can of course be vague, especially if you’re like triangulating where somebody went. Um, it can’t necessarily prove they were doing what you’re saying they’re doing, but it looks pretty damning when you line it up with everything else. Investigator– Especially when she said she’s never been foraging, but then she’s on like an– a foraging website. She’s like searching for a foraging website. 

Em: Right, “I’ve never been foraging, but I know exactly the spots that are marked for me not to go–“ 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: “–if I– if one were to forage.” Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. “And I have been to those spots, but to do something else.” 

Em: Right. But– 

Christine: Right. 

Em: Yeah. Okay. 

Christine: So– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: –then they say, “Okay, well, here’s a footage of you dumping a dehydrator at the dump four days after you poisoned all these people and they were on their deathbed.” Um, they checked the dehydrator. Of course, there’s traces of these poisoned mushrooms. Um, another wild thing– Remember when I said she– They searched her house. They took the tablet, and they took several phones. So she had actually done, I think, four factory resets on her phone, uh– 

Em: Damn. 

Christine: –since the lunch. And she had also replaced– She gave the police a phone that had the wrong SIM number in it, like it had– or SIM card. It had a new SIM card or a different SIM card with a different phone number than the one everyone was familiar with. So she claimed she had accidentally given them the phone that like she– wasn’t her main number. Um, and it’s just all a little shady and dicey, whatever. Her lawyer argued like, “Well, in the footage, you can see the phone laying out. It’s not like she was hiding it.” 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: But it’s like, “Okay, but to give your phone up, and then it’s like not the right phone.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: It’s weird. So when they went through the factory reset, uh, log, they found that it [chuckles] had been reset multiple times: once on the afternoon that police were in the home, searching. And she had actually said to them, “I need to go to the other room to make a private call to my lawyer,” and they let her do that, and it was there that she reset the phone. The final factory reset was done remotely when the phone was in police custody already. 

Em: [sucks in air] Ooh, okay. 

Christine: And on the stand, they asked why she did that, and I guess she thought she was being funny or clever, and she was like– 

Em: Haha. 

Christine: –“I wanted to see if those dummies like had left the phone on,” and it’s like– 

Em: “Pranked ya!” Yeah, like– 

Christine: Yeah. Really, yeah. And it’s like, “Okay?” 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: “Well, we see you did it, so it’s not like helping.” I don’t know. 

Em: I thought this story was going to be over the second they found the dehydrator at the dump. Like it’s like– or whatever it was. Like th– How are we still even asking questions at this point? 

Christine: It just, it just doesn’t stop. I know. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: The trial was held in Morwell [pronounced “more-wool”], Morwell [pronounced “more-ul”]. Oh god. This was one of the ones that RedHanded apparently got some shit for saying wrong. 

Em: Ooh. Okay. 

Christine: Morwell [pronounced “more-will”], Virg– Victoria. [chuckles] I almost said Virginia. Well, that’s wrong. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: [chuckles] “The trial was held in Virginia.” Um, the trial was held in Morwell, Victoria, approximately 45 minutes from Leongatha. The trial lasted approximately 9 to 11 weeks, which was much longer than anticipated because, like what you said, it sounded like a slam dunk. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: More than 50 witnesses testified. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: Apparently, this small town was so like bowled over by the number of people that their hotels were swamped with like reporters and the jury and– 

Em: Jeez. 

Christine: –witnesses and– 

Em: Can you imagine that poor small town just like– 

Christine: Oh, no, they were, they were thriving. Their coffee shop started selling mushroom tarts. 

Em: You know what? 

Christine: I know. [laughs] 

Em: I know it’s fucked up, but I love a theme. 

Christine: RedHanded was like, “You gotta love Australian humor.” I was like, “That really is the most Australian thing I’ve ever heard.” [laughs] 

Em: Where you can shove a theme, I’ll take it. 

Christine: It’s so dark. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. It’s like, “Okay.” And apparently they were selling out, you know. I mean, I– [sighs] Whatever. 

Em: Great. Good for them. 

Christine: Yeah, good for them. So yeah, they have this like booming trial. It’s like sensational. This is basically like The Story. And it’s– In Australia, it’s huge. I mean, I remember when this was happening, and I remember feeling so sad when I first heard about it ’cause I was like, “That’s terrible. Imagine accidentally poisoning–“ 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: “–all these people.” ’Cause like nobody knew, right, at first until– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –the trial really happened. And, um, I just was like, “Oh, how devastating,” and then like the more I read about it, I was like, “Oh, she doesn’t seem [laughs] particularly bothered that she killed three people, let alone like–“ 

Em: Things are clicking all of a sudden, yeah. 

Christine: “She’s more concerned that like, ‘I gotta get rid of this dehydrator,’” you know. 

Em: [laughs] Oh god. 

Christine: Yeah. So– 

Em: What a mess. 

Christine: Yeah, it is a mess. And the central issue at stake here was whether Erin Patterson knowingly and deliberately served the death cap mushrooms or whether it was just a terrible accident, which is what she claimed. And I will say too, there is footage, and I can’t watch it again ’cause it’s so cringy. It’s horrible. It’s her being stopped by reporters outside her house, which not cool, but they’re like, “Hey–“ 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: “–tell us what’s going on,” and she starts this sort of like performance. And she’s like crying but not. And it’s– 

Em: It’s like that Chris Watts guy. 

Christine: Oh, yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah. With Shanann Watts. It’s similar vibes of like your whole body goes, “Eugh, this is not right.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: "It’s not right. It’s fake.” 

Em: Interesting. Okay. What w– 

Christine: And it’s not done well. Like– 

Em: Was she saying anything? Was she just like– 

Christine: Yeah, she’s like, “It’s terrible. What’s happened?” And at one point – oh my god – she goes like this [wipes her eye as if crying], and she checks her hand to see if there are tears– 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: –and there’s no tears. 

Em: Aww. 

Christine: Like it’s really ominous. And you’re watching this like– And she’s like [fake cries]. Like it’s so bad, and I’m like “You’re not even good at pretend crying.” It’s, it’s, it’s startling to watch– 

Em: Oof. 

Christine: –’cause it’s really– 

Em: Okay. Well, I’m not gonna ask. I wanna, I wanna– I’m gonna let the story play out, and I’ll ask you later. 

Christine: Okay. I hope I, I hope I– I hope you remember ’cause I don’t want to accidentally skip whatever it is. Um– 

Em: No, no, no. You’re good. I was about to totally take us on a turn, and I’m tr– I’m really trying to lock the fuck in here. Okay. 

Christine: [laughs] It’s hard. It– There’s a lot to discuss. Um, but yeah, so it’s like this fake crying, and it’s like this weird boo-hooing, and like she’s checking for tears. There’s no tears. Um, she’s also– Like her stature is so odd. Like she’s just kind of standing there like crying, and it’s like, no, typically if you’re like upset and on camera, like you’re trying to like cover yourself, shield y– in some way. It just doesn’t look– 

Em: Or at least try to like hide that you’re crying. Yeah. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. Or stop. But it’s like unnat– it’s really unnatural and like unsettling to watch. Um, and basically she talks about herself the whole time. She’s like, “They were so good to me. I would never do anything to them.” Like, it’s like, “Okay, but they’re dead. And you’re saying like–“ Oh, and then she mixes up which one survived. Like she says the wrong name. And it’s like, “Hello?” 

Em: That’s literally so twisted. 

Christine: It’s– It– It’s really terrible to watch. It feels terrible. Like you’re just like– 

Em: Oh… 

Christine: Your whole body is like on edge watching it. Um, it’s not cute. So basically, the whole time she’s claiming, “This was a terrible accident,” and “I can’t believe that this happened,” and yada yada. So evidence showed that there was tension in the family before this lunch and that their relationships had somewhat deteriorat– deteriorated over the years. So text messages were introduced [sighs], um, in which Erin referred to her in-laws– her parents-in-law, Don and Gail, uh, and her ex, Simon Patterson, disparagingly. 

Em: Hm. 

Christine: Um, she was actually in a Facebook true crime– uh, true crime Facebook group– [laughs] 

Em: Oh boy. 

Christine: –called ATW– [laughs] No. 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: She was in a Facebook true crime group about, uh, a different case called Kel– uh, whose– her name was Keli Lane. It’s a famous Australian true crime case. And during lockdown, she and four other members kind of splintered off into a separate group and would message each other regularly. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: So one message to another member from Erin read, “I’ve been hiding powdered mushrooms in everything. Mixed it into chocolate brownies yesterday. The kids had no idea.” 

Em: Girl. 

Christine: Girl. 

Em: Girl, come on. Like this is– 

Christine: And then she’s like, “I’ve never owned a dehydrator, but– Oh, yeah. I forgot I used it for–“ 

Em: Multiple recipes for multiple nights– 

Christine: “–multiple recipes.” 

Em: –on multiple children and people. I– 

Christine: And told people about it. 

Em: You know, [sighs] the confidence is astounding. 

Christine: I know. 

Em: It’s like– Or like the complete– Like it’s like, it’s like you gotta be delusional to j– 

Christine: You have to be. 

Em: Something’s– 

Christine: You have to be on a different planet really. 

Em: To either think you can get away with it or really believe your own situation. I don’t know. 

Christine: Yeah, to really like be that self-involved. It’s, it’s disturbing. Um, so she had messaged these people like about not only powdered brownies, but she’d also talked about her in-laws. And in one message Erin called the family “a lost cause” and said basically “fuck them.” Um, nothing was particularly damning. Like it’s not like anything that you would be shocked to read somebody write about their toxic relationship with an in-law. 

Em: Sure. Like “They’re mean sometimes,” or– 

Christine: Like it’s not– Yeah. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah, like, “Oh, they suck. Fuck them.” Okay. Well, it doesn’t– That doesn’t really– It’s not as damning as it might sound, um, but of course, like in context of, “Hey, they all died,” uh, it’s a little more important. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Especially be– 

Em: “I hate the police are looking at everything I’m writing [chuckles] or, or will be.” 

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Then you kind of gotta do a little, you know, preemptive like, “How is this gonna look?” Um– 

Em: The no planning blows my mind. It would be the only thing– 

Christine: No planning. 

Em: –I was paranoid about. 

Christine: But so the wild part too is that the first time she was like looking at those mushrooms, it was like a season– It was like well before she ever actually foraged for mushrooms. So this has been like an ongoing thing. Like the idea must have entered her mind a long time ago. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Um, the actual lunch they said took about two weeks of preparation that she had like been planning or talking about it. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: Um, but yeah, this seems to have been like a kind of long-standing plan of hers in some way or another. Um, so this showed like the frustration she had with her in-laws, um, which, you know, goes to show– Oh, she also claimed like, “Oh, we have a great relationship. Everything’s fine. They’re wonderful to me.” And it’s like, “Well, you’re clearly not telling the whole story ’cause you’re on– talking to your friends about how much you hate them.” Um– 

Em: It’s like, “Haha, they’re, they’re great. I’m just gonna kill them.” What the hell? 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, “They suck and–“ 

Em: There are a lot worse in-laws that are also not being killed, by the way. Like th– 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s like you don’t have to murder about it, you know? 

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] 

Christine: Like you don’t have to go that far. [chuckles] 

Em: You don’t have to, don’t have to murder about it. 

Christine: You don’t have to do that part, you know. Like Jesus Christ. I mean, even– 

Em: You could just block them on the phone or something. 

Christine: Even fantasizing about it. I’m sure people do, but you never actually do it, you know? 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: I mean, I don’t to clarify– 

Em: I don’t. 

Christine: –but, but I’m sure some people do. And it’s like, “Wow, this takes it to such a new level, especially if you’ve been planning this for a long time.” And especially like including the aunt and uncle, like what the fuck did they do? It’s just a lot. Um, also she claimed like lunches like this were normal, and everyone in the family was like, “No.” 

Em: No. 

Christine: “No–“ 

Em: Sorry, babe. 

Christine: “–this is not– It was not normal.” 

Em: Nope. 

Christine: So Simon Patterson testified, uh, the ex. He said he believed Erin had attempted to poison him on multiple occasions in the past. Evidence showed Simon had previously become critically ill after eating meals prepared by Erin. He had even been in a coma at one point, and he had lost a significant portion of his bowel that had to be removed, and two times his family was told they needed to prepare for his imminent death. 

Em: Oh my god. How traumatic. 

Christine: So she really did try, allegedly, to– 

Em: Literally like medically getting yourself like– Bowels removed is– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –a– not a light surgery. 

Christine: Yeah. Yep. So charges relating to Simon were eventually dropped. And I think people presume this is– They wanted the final case to be very clear-cut, not like, “Oh, a year ago, she potentially tried to poison her ex.” Like they wanted to focus on the lunch and say, “This is what happened. The end.” So now let’s get to the cancer claim ’cause like first of all, what’s happening here? What are the motives? Why did she do this to begin with? 

Em: That was what I was going to ask you a while ago, and I said I, I don’t– I didn’t want to– 

Christine: Ah, okay. You’re right. 

Em: My thought was, “Did she even have cancer?” 

Christine: No. 

Em: ‘kay. So– 

Christine: Of course not. 

Em: Okay. So I had whatever shred of pity I could have left when I thought maybe she did have cancer ’cause I’m like– 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: –“Okay, family annihilator shit. You think that you’re not gonna be here, and you just don’t want anyone to suffer, and you think you’re putting them out of their misery or something once you’re gone,” which– 

Christine: Nope. 

Em: –gross on the cockiness anyway. But, um, okay. So she just felt like killing. 

Christine: Nope. You’ll find out. There’s more of a motive, I believe. 

Em: Oh! Okay. Now, that I didn’t see coming, Christine. Okay. 

Christine: Well, you just thought she was like, “I guess I’ll kill them”? [laughs] 

Em: Yeah, I thought she was like, “I’m just gonna use that as the reason in case anyone asks.” I don’t know. 

Christine: With the cancer? Oh, no. The cancer had nothing to do with the actual murder. They just– That was just how they believed she got them to come to the lunch. She said, “I have big f– big news.” 

Em: Ohh. 

Christine: She also didn’t think Ian would survive, right? So she thought everyone in this room is gonna be dead. They’re not gonna be able to say, “Oh, she told us she has cancer.” Ian wakes up– 

Em: I thought she was going to use it as her own alibi when she like– 

Christine: Oh, no. 

Em: –why everyone had gathered. Just like, “I was going to tell them,” which also would have been crazy because the doctors would just be like, “She doesn’t have cancer.” 

Christine: Well, so that– She did– So they cl– They go, “Well, hang on. Ian is now awake. He claims that you told everybody you had cancer.” And she’s like, “Yeah, yeah, you know, I, I did have a fear of– I did have a cancer scare.” 

Em: Okay? 

Christine: And you’re on the stand– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –dude. Like, good luck with this one. Good luck. Walk yourself right off the cliff here because she says, “Oh, um, yeah, I, I, I had this fear, and I actually had, um, a, a schedule. There’s actually a reason why I lied about this.” And they’re like, “Okay, well, we just went through your medical records. There’s no history of cancer, so explain.” She says, “Well, actually, the reason I lied about that is because I was really embarrassed about what was actually going on.” 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: “I was gonna go get gastric bypass surgery, and I was too embarrassed to tell my in-laws about it. So I lied and said it was cancer, but I, I knew I would need their help when I had this surgery.” So they’re like, “Okay, weird that you waited ’til trial to tell us that.” 

Em: Also like, so you were embarrassed to tell them, but you knew you would need their help during the surgery. You’re gonna have to tell them eventually. And also like that would be crazy to tell people, “I have cancer,” and then have to go, “JK, I just–“ 

Christine: And then say, “How do I tell my kids?” 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: “I was just embarrassed”? And so– 

Em: This is such a frenetic crazed– 

Christine: It’s a mess. 

Em: –plan. 

Christine: It’s a mess. Yes. And so she testified she was too embarrassed about her gastric bypass surgery to tell her ex-in-laws. Um, and she– 

Em: It’s so much more embarrassing to lie about cancer. 

Christine: Yeah, uh, yes. 

Em: What are you talking about? “Oh, I’m embarrassed that I, you know, am losing weight.” Like– 

Christine: And you were planning to tell your kids about it? Remember she met with them to ask– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –how she should tell her kids that she has cancer? Like, hello? 

Em: Oh my god. 

Christine: And so they ask like, “Okay, well, where–?” And this is when, you know, her lawyer’s like just piss– like just pissed off ’cause like she’s just going rogue. Okay. They ask like, “Oh, well, you said you had plans. So where did you have your consult? Like where did you have your consult for the surgery?” She goes, “Oh, it’s this, um, med spa called Enrich.” And apparently, the prosecutor during court runs out of the courtroom ’cause he’s like, “I gotta go check this immediately.” 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: “Like I gotta go check, ’cause this is coming up during trial. Like this is not something we had information about.” So he runs out, figures out Enrich literally does like Botox. They don’t do surgery. Okay? 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: So she’s just fully– 

Em: Well, you said “med spa,” and I went, “Okay.” 

Christine: Yeah, exactly. Like they don’t even do– It’s like a surgery, you know, and they don’t do anything even close. So she’s really fucked herself here. Um, she’s on the stand for way too long, of course, ’cause she’s convinced she’s some sort of outsmarting genius. 

Em: Crazy. 

Christine: She eventually is like cornered into admitting that she lied about f– never foraging mushrooms. She lied about never owning a food dehydrator. Um, and when they were like, “Why?”, she was like, “Well, I was just panicked ’cause I realized like people were dying, and I didn’t want to get in trouble. And like it was an accident, but I was too scared to say anything.” 

Em: What? 

Christine: Okay, sure. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: After six to seven days of deliberation, the jury returned unanimous guilty verdicts. Erin Patterson was convicted of three counts of murder, one count of attempted murder (that was for Ian), and the sentencing, uh, occurred in the Supreme Court of Victoria before Justice Christopher Beale, who described the crimes as an “enormous betrayal” involving substantial premeditation. By the way, remember she made individual beef Wellingtons? Basically so she could portion out– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –how much of the toxins sh– everyone was getting. 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: And then her plate was the only one that didn’t make her sick and was on a different color, right? 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: I mean, it all is just such a bad look, um, including her like false story about getting everyone together, her cancer. 

Em: I mean, literally not an inch of this feels good. [chuckles] 

Christine: No, none of it. 

Em: No. 

Christine: None of it feels like, like– No, none of it even feels close to being part of the truth. Erin Patterson was sentenced to three life sentences for the murders of Gail, Don, and Heather, 25 years for the attempted murder of Ian Wilkinson;, uh, there was a non-parole period of 33 years set, and that means with time served Erin Patterson may apply for parole in 2056, and she’ll be about 82 years old at that point. 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So Erin Patterson has formally lodged an appeal against her convictions. 

Em: Oh? 

Christine: Prosecutors have also appealed, arguing the sentence was manifestly inadequate. Uh, in the meantime, uh, Erin is still in prison. She is actually incarcerated at the infamous Dame Phyllis Frost Centre, which sounds scary. Uh– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –it’s a maximum security women’s prison in Melbourne. And she reportedly spends up to 22 hours per day in her cell due to safety concerns because she’s so notorious, um, and reportedly was even accused of tampering with an inmate’s food. 

Em: Of course. Wow. 

Christine: Mm-hmm. 

Em: It’s like, “How much can I get away with here?” 

Christine: Yeah. So now for the motive. Basically, all they could come up with– not, not really– I mean, not that anything’s like “enough” to kill a bunch of people over. This is like a mass murder here. But like, you know, maybe if it’s like, oh, sexual abuse or something like that, that– 

Em: Right. 

Christine: –enraged you or whatever. It’s like, “Okay, I– Maybe I can understand,” but all they can figure out is that in 2022, Simon had filed a tax return saying they were separated. And they were, but Erin was livid because she had actually, um, when her mother had passed, had received a $2 million d– uh, Australian dollar inheritance. And, uh, she had loaned a lot of money to her in-laws, to her brothers-and sisters-in-law to build houses with no interest. Um, she had like really helped her in-laws out, given them a lot of resources and money. And now the way that he filed taxes basically fucked her over, like just totally fucked her over. 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: So she was livid, understandably, and she confronted him. And he said, “Oh, it was a mistake. I can fix it,” but apparently, she was like, “No, fuck you,” and then went after him for child support. But that backfired because a child support agency said like, “Okay, well, Simon, you’ve got to stop paying for the kids’ private school. You’ve got to stop paying for this. Um, and you actually are now required to send a $40 payment per month per child,” which like is nothing. 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: Unclear why it’s so low. Um, it could be because of her inheritance and that she had a lot more money than him. I– That’s my guess. Um, I don’t know the details, but essentially, now she’s screwed, and she’s getting $80 bucks a month. Um, and he’s not– no longer– She had to pull her kids from private school. He’s no longer paying for anything. Um, and she apparently asked her parents-in-law to mediate, but they said they didn’t want to get involved in anything financial. So she basically felt like they were– 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: –like they were like enabling their son, you know what I mean? Like which– That’s his parents. 

Em: Could she have, could she have hoped that everyone was gonna get together at this dinner so she could like corner them into like peer mediating their conversation or anything? 

Christine: No. 

Em: Okay. 

Christine: She’d already tried that for the past year or two, and they just were like, “We’re not gonna get involved in the finances.” But they were doting with the grandkids. They were very close with the grandkids. Um, they had a great relationship. They were very loving. They were still really kind to her, although Gail didn’t invite her to her 70th birthday party, and I guess Erin was absolutely incensed by this. But like think about the ego you’ve gotta have to be that furious someone didn’t invite you to their 70th– your ex-in-law– whatever. I mean– 

Em: So petty. 

Christine: Get a grip, dude. 

Em: It’s so petty. 

Christine: And like even Gail claimed like, “Oops, it was an accident. I’m sorry. Of course, we want you to be there,” and like she just was not having it. And it’s like, “It looked like you were fi– looking for a reason, dude.” 

Em: This is so different tha– I thought she just had cancer and was gonna just kill everybody so everyone died together. I– 

Christine: Oh, no. 

Em: That’s as simple as I thought this was gonna be. 

Christine: So much more nefarious. 

Em: Why did I think that? 

Christine: No, no. Um, so they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t involve themselves in their son’s like financial stuff. And they were like, “Listen, that’s not– 

Em: Which is fair. 

Christine: I mean, fair. Exactly. Like if your ex daughter-in-law is like, “I need you to–“ I mean, this’s just messy. So Simon claimed it was a miscommunication, and she just was not having it, um, especially after she had loaned his family like hundreds of thousands of dollars. But it’s like then don’t do that. Like people say like if you’re gonna loan money, don’t– to people, especially like in your life, like friends and family– 

Em: Mm-hmm. 

Christine: –do not expect to get it back because if you do, that can cause such a rift. Like anybody whose family has like donated money to each other, I’ve just always heard horror stories about this. Like years later, there’s disagreements about how much it was or what they agreed to or the terms of it– 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –or whether it was a gift or a loan, you know, and it’s like– I’ve just always heard if you’re gonna loan money to someone, do it– 

Em: Just assume– 

Christine: –out of the goodness of your heart. Don’t assume– 

Em: Assume it’s never coming back. 

Christine: And if it comes back, it’s a great surprise, you know, because – 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: –like this is just a recipe for disaster. 

Em: Yeah. If you’re gifting money or giving money, like just, just assume it– 

Christine: If you’re loaning it to family, yeah. 

Em: Just assume it’s not coming back to you, yeah. 

Christine: And, and from what I can tell the family– I mean, she didn’t charge them interest. I assume– I-I’d like to think someone paid her ba– I don’t know. I don’t– I never got the vibe that like they stole all this money from her and never gave it back. I think she just felt really like taken advantage of even though– 

Em: Sure. 

Christine: –that wasn’t necessarily what was happening. Um– 

Em: Yeah, I get that, I guess. Yeah. 

Christine: And she was like– She took it personally, and like, you know, this is her ex, and she felt like she was being left out of the family. 

Em: Just a messy breakup. 

Christine: Really messy, and she made it so much worse. Um– 

Em: Mm. 

Christine: So yeah, that’s, that’s a really long one, but that is the, the Mushroom Murders of Australia. 

Em: I think that’s one of my favorite stories recently that you’ve told. 

Christine: It’s a, it’s a doozy. I, I mean, it only wrapped up this year a couple months ago, so it’s– 

Em: Wow. 

Christine: –very, very new. Um, happened in ’23. 

Em: I never heard about it. 

Christine: I remember like feeling so bad for her and then like reading into it and going, “Oh, shit. Someone did this on purpose.” 

Em: Yeah, “Hang on a second.” 

Christine: Like– 

Em: [chuckles] 

Christine: Oof. [sighs] 

Em: Yeah. 

Christine: Yeah. A whole house full of people just annihilated. Horrible. 

Em: Wow. Um, a mushroom grew in my yard yesterday. Not a– 

Christine: [gasps] Go to Bing– 

Em: Not a death cap, [chuckles] I don’t think. 

Christine: –search iNaturalist. [chuckles] Don’t let– 

Em: Honestly, I think it came form– 

Christine: –your dog eat it. 

Em: No, I think it came from him. I think his fertilizer– 

Christine: [gasps] 

Em: –is giving me mushrooms now. 

Christine: Ew. 

Em: I know. It was a pretty like magazine-looking mushroom. 

Christine: Was it one of those white ones? 

[Em holds their phone up to the camera, showing a photo of a small mushroom with a brown cap and white stem.] 

Christine: [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Yeah. Yep, yep. 

Em: That’s a, that’s– is a poopy mushroom? 

Christine: I have no clue. 

Em: I don’t know. But it’s– It, it popped up exactly where he goes to the bathroom. I was like, “Is he doing this?” So– 

Christine: It doesn’t appear to be a death cap, but I would not test that theory. 

Em: Certainly, I would not want to eat it since it came from him probably. 

Christine: No matter what. No matter what. 

Em: It feels like– I’m just gonna consider it a death cap. It feels– 

Christine: Ah, yes. The famous, famous– 

Em: –would –the experience. Um– 

Christine: Yeah, death cap junior. 

Em: I do think that was one of my favorite stories you’ve told in a while. Good job. 

Christine: Oh, well, I’m glad. It was a poisonous beef Wellington. Very– 

Em: I mean, you had me at beef Wellington and– 

Christine: I know. 

Em: –and ended in a mystery, so my two favorite things. 

Christine: Dark stuff. Um, thank you, everybody, so much for listening. Uh, this may be my last episode depending on who br– [chuckles] broke into my house. [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] 

Christine: Um– I’m gonna go– 

Em: I was like, “Santa?” [laughs] 

Christine: “Hello?” “Surprise!” [laughs] 

Em: [laughs] [sighs] 

Christine: Yeah, I’m gonna go look around, and, uh, Blaise texted me during the recording, “I’m on the plane,” so like clearly that was not [laughs]– 

Em: Definitely not him. 

Christine: –it was not him. Um– 

Em: Well, uh, hope you make it. And– 

Christine: I wonder if any of it could be heard. Like I, I do wonder if you can hear it because it was pretty loud, but, um– 

Em: I didn’t hear anything. 

Christine: Yeah, maybe, maybe it’s too quiet to hear, but, um– 

Em: Well, enjoy your– 

Christine: –no, I think everything’s all right. [laughs] 

Em: Enjoy your snowy day. I know it’s snowing over there. Very jealous of you. 

Christine: Thank you. Yeah. 

Em: Um– 

Christine: It’s gloomy. 

Em: [sighs] So jealous of you. I’ll go hang out in the sun. Ugh. Um– 

Christine: Go and sit in your mushroom garden. 

Em: I– So far I’ve got one in the collection, and, uh, I’m sure more will sprout. 

Christine: Oh, you’re collecting them. Oh, good. 

Em: For the trash, of course. 

Christine: Oh, okay. [laughs] I was like, “Who are you? Linda? Collecting hair and teeth?” [laughs] 

Em: [chuckles] I’m– For my compost, and that’s about it. Um, all right. Thanks, everyone, and, um, we’ll see you next week. And– 

Christine: Merry Christmas! That’s– 

Em: Merry Christmas. Why– 

Christine: [chuckles] We– 

Em: Drink. 

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