E473 Phantom Punchlines and a Top Hat Tater

TOPICS:DAGG’S DEMON/THE DAGG POLTERGEIST, THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MATTHEW JOHNSON

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Episode 473 is here and it is bringing the gasps! This week Em brings us to Canada for the tale of Dagg’s Demon/the Dagg Poltergeist, which may be one of the more absurd hauntings we’ve heard in a while! Then Christine covers the disappearance of Matthew Johnson, a case that is still developing right now. And can we bring back good commercial jingles? …and that’s why we drink!

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Transcript

[intro music]

Christine: [singing] ♪ Hello, it’s me, and it’s Em too. ♪♪ Welcome to And That’s Why We Drink. It’s a podcast where we talk about– Somebody asked me, “What’s your podcast about?” And I went, “Bad stuff.” I just was like so tired.

Em: [chuckles] Good.

Christine: And I went, “Bad stuff,” and then I was like, “That doesn’t make sense.” But anyway, they kind of got it. They were like–

Em: Okay, great.

Christine: –“Oh, like crime?” And I was like, “Oh, actually, yeah.”

Em: You know, sometimes people ask me what the podcast is about, and I usually just say, um, “Spooky, creepy things,” and then I just leave it to them. Because sometimes I’ve really gotten into like telling them the details of it, and halfway through, they’re like, “Oh, that’s not really my thing.” And I go, “Okay.” [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “Well, I’m, I’m just going to stop then.” So I leave it kind of vague, and I’m like, “If you want to listen to it, go for it, but.”

Christine: Oh man.

Em: Uh, “bad stuff” is an interesting way to put it too. Uh, I’ll try that next time and see what responses I get.

Christine: It kind of worked. They kind of like figured it out right away.

Em: I think s– I– That makes sense to me. True crime’s pretty po– uh, popular.

Christine: Mm-hmm. And pretty bad.

Em: I feel like if I heard “bad stuff,” I would assume true crime.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So actually, yeah, good, good description.

Christine: Hey, yeah, thanks. It was just, um, a result of exhaustion. But anyway, thanks so much. How are you doing? [chuckles]

Em: Uh, I’m fine. I, uh– Allison’s back, which is nice.

Christine: Wow.

Em: Took a while [chuckles] to–

Christine: Remember when she was coming back in August?

Em: Yeah. Remember that?

Christine: That was fun.

Em: Yeah, it ended up being like a full pregnancy. Um–

Christine: Wow. Not a real one, guys.

Em: She could have come back with a baby though. I’d have questions, but the timeline would add up. [chuckles]

Christine: It would add up. It’s like when you would send people away to have a baby, you know, like–

Em: Yeah, that’s k– Maybe that’s what we were doing.

Christine: –“Oh, she’s summering in a different part of the country.”

Em: Maybe that’s what we were doing. I don’t know.

Christine: Mm. [sighs]

Em: Uh, no, she– It’s very interesting having her back. We’re, we’re going through some growing pains currently just because I got very used to my independent life.

Christine: Well, yeah. Now you have two people– You have double the people all of a sudden.

Em: Yeah. And last time she was here, there wasn’t the dynamic of me and Hank getting each other and like having our own relationship. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: ’Cause when she left us, I hated that dog.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, and now it’s, it’s a whole new thing of like having to be home in time for the dog park all the time and– I don’t know. It’s little silly things. We’ll be fine.

Christine: How–

Em: We’ll be fine in like a week, but it’s, uh– She just got here like this week, so we’re relearning each other.

Christine: Was, uh, Hank excited to see Al?

Em: Um, yeah, I, I worried that he wouldn’t recognize her, but they seem to get along just fine, so.

Christine: I was just bringing this up, and Blaise goes, “You bring this up all the time,” and I go, “I never bring it up.” And so, I’m gonna bring it up again right now, um–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –which is that when I first got Gio, Blaise was there with me, and he stayed for a week and then left to go back to grad school, uh, on the East Coast, and I stayed in LA with this dog and a new minimum wage 12-hour-a-day job.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Uh, and it was just a nightmare. But then he left for a couple weeks and came back again the following month, and I took Gio with me to pick him up at LAX.

Em: Aw.

Christine: And Gio was still like a little puppy, and Blaise got in the car, and Gio freaked the fuck out. He was like–

Em: Aww.

Christine: –“I don’t know who–” He was like barking and like crazy–

Em: Oh. Oh, oh.

Christine: Yeah. He was like, “Who is that?” [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And I was like, “That’s your dad.” And he was like, “I don’t know that man. I’ve never met that man in my life” and–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –I was like, “Uh-oh.” So they had to kind of like become friends again, and like Blaise would like play with him. And now it’s ridiculous because like who feeds him? Who takes him out every single day? Who like–

Em: Right.

Christine: –takes him to the vet and the groomer and– Yeah. So, um, you know, things flip like that, don’t they?

Em: Yeah. I, I’m kind of, um– I have to keep reminding myself to not feel jealousy because all– Which is funny because if you told me when, when she first left me and Hank to our own devices–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –I, I would have been like, “Please come back as soon as possible.” But now I’m like, “Don’t steal my best friend,” you know. [chuckles]

Christine: Aww.

Em: And he’s giving her all the attention right now ’cause she’s the shiny new thing. So I have to remind myself like, “They need to bond. Let it happen.” But–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –he used to sit with me on the couch every night, and now like he just goes and snuggles with her and then stays in there like all eight hours. I’m like, “Can you recognize me at all?”

Christine: Wow. Oh, you gotta get used to that. Your–

Em: I know.

Christine: Animals will hurt your feelings, and they will not have any regard.

Em: It hurt. It does hurt. Thank you, um, for the validation. [chuckles] So, uh, no, I’m very happy she’s back. It is, um– It’s a good time. Yeah, I don’t have to [chuckles] FaceTime her all the time to talk to her anymore. It’s very wonderful.

Christine: Well, that’s good. You can FaceTime in person.

Em: I– You’re right.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: You’re exactly right. Um, what about you? How is your week going?

Christine: Uh… [chuckles] It’s good. Thank you for asking. No, it’s fine. I just– You know, it’s really, really windy here–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and when it gets really windy, I just get in this like particular mood. Like I feel like I’m like one of those cows, you know, that like–

Em: What? [laughs]

Christine: –that like lays down when there’s a tornado coming.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And so when the wind picks up and it gets a little like spooky weather and it’s like warmer here now so it’s very springy and like thunds– there was thunderstorms last night, I get into this like particular mood, and I think you can appreciate it too, of like, “Ooh…” Like the– There’s like wind howling and lightning and–

Em: [groans]

Christine: –I just, I’m just in a mood, and I’m like, “Something’s happening.” I’ve been following a lot of astrology, and shit is going down this week–

Em: What does it mean astrology-wise?

Christine: –astrologically. We have like seven calendars– like, uh, Mayan, Judeo-Christian, um, like all these different kind of calendars that are converging, I think it’s like six or seven of them, on– which was on Tuesday–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and this like new moon, and then like we have the Chinese New Year, the lo– lunar new year. Um, and it’s just this really wild, uh, kind of– i-i– A lot of the stuff that’s happening astrologically has not happened in like hundreds of years or ever, you know, and so–

Em: Wow.

Christine: –it’s, it’s supposed to be the biggest week of our lifespan– of our lifetimes, uh, astrologically. So I’m like on edge, and then I keep hearing like wind howling and, um–

Em: [makes a shuddering sound]

Christine: It’ll come out later, so I’m not gonna feel weird saying it, but, uh, Blaise is leaving town this weekend, and I’m home alone all weekend, and my brother’s leaving town. I was gonna make him hang out with me, but now I’m like home alone and– I don’t know. I just feel a little bit like on edge. I don’t know if it’s like the howling wind and like– A window blew open earlier, and I just feel very like, uh, like w-which– Like something’s coming, you know? I don’t know.

Em: I– [chuckles] Yeah. And no one’s here to protect you when the forces enter your home at night.

Christine: Yeah. Well, I’m like– We like set up our new security system recently. I don’t know. I’m just kind of like on edge about stuff. I just feel like this kind of– not, not a dread or anything, but just like the other shoe’s gonna drop. And I don’t know what that means. Like I don’t know if that means like on a global scale or like–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –in my personal life. I’m not sure. But, um, I just feel like we’re kinda on the brink of something big.

Em: Interesting. Man, right when Allison gets back into town. [chuckles]

Christine: I know. Listen– [chuckles]

Em: Maybe she’s the, the omen. [laughs]

Christine: Maybe her arrival in Burbank, um–

Em: Maybe like a– That’s the real witch in her is that the whole nation’s being warned that she’s back. [laughs]

Christine: Witch flew across on her broomstick, landed, uh, in your lovely little yard.

Em: You know, sh– It’s been, um, kind of windy here, but it’s been mainly like– It’s February and so– If you don’t live in LA, February is our rainy month.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: And we’ve had insane torrential downpour storms all week, and it’s been delicious.

Christine: Dreamy.

Em: And it was the, the week that Allison came back, and I was like, “Oh, now we just get to hang out inside, and it’s all rainy.”

Christine: Aw.

Em: Um, but so I know that side of it where I feel like cozy, but like I don’t know about like so-something’s, something’s coming. [chuckles]

Christine: Something’s brewing.

Em: Brewing. Something’s brewing. Yeah.

Christine: I just feel it.

Em: Okay, good to know. I, I’m glad you warned me.

Christine: I’m curious if anyone else feels it. Um, this is– We’re recording this February 20, which today is also– I think today– Saturn– Wait, okay, doesn’t matter. But essentially today is also a– like a very, very, very tremendously huge day in astrology. So the energy is funky.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Okay. Wow. I’m really glad you warned me. I– You can’t warn anybody else ’cause they’ll– they know what’s gonna happen.

Christine: Sorry, guys. You should have started a podcast with me, and I could have warned you.

Em: But this is one of those things where you have the nerve to say that you think I have abilities when like you also just–

Christine: I mean, I just feel like–

Em: –sense stirrings.

Christine: But then I sound just manic, right?

Em: Oh. [laughs]

Christine: Like, “Oh, something’s coming, and I’m so–“ Like I sound like unhinged. So I do hear myself, and I realize it sounds like kooky when I just say like “the stars are aligning,” you know. Um, but I’ve just been kind of– Especially with just all the shit going down around the world anyway–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It’s like every day, I’m like, “What’s happening now? What’s the next thing?” I mean, it can’t be like this forever.

Em: Sure.

Christine: Something’s gonna happen, you know?

Em: Well, to– Maybe to, um– I don’t know how, how to segue into this, although it’s a very seamless segue, so I’m just going to say the thing, and hopefully you find the connections here.

Christine: It’s always a good segue when you explain it beforehand.

Em: I know. I know.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Just wait ’til I explain my jokes later, then that’ll really get you.

Christine: I can’t wait.

Em: Um, would you like to ask me what I’m drinking?

Christine: I would love to.

Em: So I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but Capri Sun has come out with Moon Punch.

Christine: You know, I haven’t, which is kind of surprising because I was in the market for some recently.

Em: Um, it’s– It comes with, uh, I guess like a card inside, and each one is a different moon phase. And so if you collect all–

Christine: What?

Em: You gotta collect all eight moon phases.

[Em holds up a box of Capri Sun pouches. The box has a limited edition banner in the top left. The box is an indigo shade and reads “Capri Sun Presents Moon Punch” with an image of the Capri Sun pouch in the middle. The pouch is the same indigo shade with a full moon on it.]

Christine: Oh, it’s not inside the pouch. It’s inside the box of it.

Em: Sorry, i-inside the box.

Christine: Oh, okay. I was like–

Em: Every time you get a box of–

Christine: –“How do you like hygienically deal with this?” Okay.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Uh, wow. That’s cool. I’ve never seen that before.

Em: And, indoctrination at its finest, they want you to– They give you like– If you have a flashlight, they want you to charge your Capri Sun as if like it’s under the moon, charge it under the moon.

[Em turns the box to the side, showing the instructions for “how to charge your Capri Sun.”]

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: And then the pouch glows in the dark, so you know how I feel about that.

Christine: Oh, Em. This is ma–

Em: Then it teaches you about the stars and the lunar eclipse.

[Em turns the box around to the other side. There are two columns, “Lunar Eclipse” and “Find the Stars,” with short information and diagrams.]

Christine: Hey, Orion’s Belt.

Em: And on the back, it teaches you all the phases of the moon.

[Em turns the box around again. In the center it says, “Phases of the Moon.” Surrounding the text are images of the moon as it cycles from a full moon to a new moon and back.]

Christine: Man.

Em: So I wanted to see, since you’ve got your little psychic abilities here, of all of the, um, moon phases, which moon card do you think is in here? And I’ll open the box and see what we think.

Christine: Show me again.

Em: Yeah.

[Em holds the box up, showing the side with all the moon phases.]

Christine: Oh, so you don’t know yet?

Em: I don’t know yet ’cause I haven’t opened the box, but I’m curious to see what my card is.

Christine: I think it’s a third quarter. What’s your guess?

Em: You know what’s so funny? I said third quarter too.

Christine: No way.

Em: We’re– If this– Christine.

Christine: That’s weird. [laughs] By the way, how many are there? How many options are there? ’Cause–

Em: Eight. One, two three, four–

Christine: Yeah, eight. So it’s not like we chose out of two.

Em: No, [chuckles] it’s not.

Christine: [unintelligible] out of eight. It’s pretty–

Em: We’re– What’s that? Like a, a 12– 12% chance?

Christine: Do not ask me to figure out a fraction right now, not today.

Em: I think it’s 12%. Hang on.

Christine: The wind is howling.

[Em opens the box.]

Em: Okay. So far, I don’t see a card. [chuckles] That’d be very funny.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: Ooh, but also every single one of– Oh, hang on. I’m confused. [reading] Collect all moon phases. Ohh.

Christine: I’ve never heard somebody open a box of Capri Sun and say, “I’m confused.”

Em: [laughs] Because I thought it was a card. I was guessing– I was assuming a card ’cause it says, “Collect all eight moon phases.”

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: It’s that every box is– All of the Capri Suns in it are one type of moon phase.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: So every one in here is the same type, and these are waxing crescents.

[Em holds up a Capri Sun Moon Punch pouch. A straw sits against the front of the pouch. The pouch is silver with an indigo background on the front. At the top it says, “Capri Sun Present Moon Punch,” and then a waxing crescent moon is pictured below the text.]

Christine: [gasps]

Em: We did not get third quarter.

Christine: Oh, that’s a beauty though.

Em: Which one did you say that you love again? The–

Christine: I said, uh, a, a, a waning gi– I said a waxing gibbous, I think.

Em: Waxing gibbous. Well, that would have been cool too.

Christine: [unintelligible] Yeah, waxing gibbous.

Em: Anyway, just–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –we tried. It’s okay. Next time.

Christine: Very good. I like that b– that new little, uh, PR punch-up they’re doing. That’s fun.

Em: Yeah. Also, not an ad, everybody, but I saw “Moon Punch,” and I was like–

Christine: I mean–

Em: –“There’s no way I’m not buying that, so.”

Christine: Oh, you have to– You’ll have to let us know how it is when you try it, which I’m assuming is–

Em: I’ll, I’ll let you know in five seconds. [chuckles]

Christine: –right now. [laughs]

Em: What are you, what are you drinking this week?

Christine: You know, I bought myself like a little cantaloupe – or was it honeydew – flavored, um, like milk tea–

Em: Oh, interesting.

Christine: –in a glass bottle from Jungle Jim’s.

Em: You like it or no?

Christine: I left it all the way on the first floor, so.

Em: Okay, so.

Christine: So too bad for me.

Em: Honeydew sounds, uh– That’s one of my favorite flavors.

Christine: Oh, I love it. I love it. It’s Leona’s favorite food right now, honeydew melon.

Em: Really? They– Honey-honeydew–

Christine: I don’t like honeydew melon.

Em: Oh.

Christine: I just like the flavor of it.

Em: I was gonna say, honeydew gets a lot of slander. Everyone has a problem with honeydew.

Christine: I’m not into the melons really. But the flavor of it in like an ice cream or something sweet, I will eat all day long.

Em: Mm, I get it. But I, I, I’m that person where when you get like a fruit, fruit bowl and like, of course, honeydew is like the last one available–

Christine: Yeah, we’re a perfect match ’cause I’ll eat all the raspberries out of it, and you eat–

Em: Oh, please. I hate raspberries.

Christine: You do? I know we figure this out like once every six months, but it’s shocking every time.

Em: Yeah. Strawbs, “blubes,” and blackberries. Remember?

Christine: Okay, [sighs] I’ll take the rest.

Em: Um, okay. I will let everybody know about the waxing crescent.

Christine: That’s a beauty though.

Em: I’d like to think– It’d be fun if all eight were different flavors, but.

Christine: See, waxing? The X in, in prescription RX is on the right, so a waxing crescent, the crescent is on the right.

Em: That’s what you were talking about last time.

Christine: [unintelligible] That’s how my brain goes in– That’s how my brain remembers it. [chuckles]

Em: Um, this is not, not their best, but not their worst.

Christine: What is the worst? What’s worse than that one?

Em: Ugh, let me go look at the flavors.

Christine: Ugh, now I’m getting you all worked up.

Em: Um, you know, their Pacific Cooler and their, their Island Cooler is always my favorite, but that one’s hard to come by. Um, their Wild Cherry is not my favorite.

Christine: That’s my favorite. [chuckles]

Em: Wait a minute. [reads label on pouch] “Wild Cherry flavored.” What’s wrong with me?

Christine: Uh!

Em: I think it’s their worst flavor, but I was, I was bamboozled by the fun packaging.

Christine: Oh, I thought it was Moo– Why wouldn’t they change the flavor?

Em: If, if you were offered a situation to have– to make something called Moon Punch, what flavor is it for you?

Christine: Yeah! Oh, um, some sort of like blackberry thing, I think.

Em: [gasps] Fun.

Christine: Right? Like what would you do? Like I think it would be like a darker berry flavor, like cosmos, you know?

Em: I hadn’t– I wasn’t thinking that direction, but you’re totally right. Now that you say it, I’m– that makes sense to me. Or starfruit.

Christine: That’s a good one too.

Em: If you did blackberry and starfruit mixed together, I think that’d be a fun combo.

Christine: That’s lovely.

Em: Thank you. See, Capri Sun, hire us.

Christine: No. [chuckles]

Em: It’s literally not that hard. Oh.

Christine: I’m not interested, thanks.

Em: Okay, I’ll, I’ll text Christine and then– and you hire me, and I’ll– we’ll use Christine’s answers.

Christine: They don’t want me. I’m gonna put cards in every pouch of Capri Sun and be like, “I thought that’s what you guys wanted.”

Em: [laughs] You know what? I kind of still regret– I don’t s– I–

Christine: I col–

Em: I wanted the card.

Christine: It should have been a little collectible. I agree.

Em: I wanted the card. Also, what a smart idea. You have to keep buying these until you get all eight. But then what do you do with them?

Christine: Why? I know, but like what’s the point of that? Like it’s– Are they all different flavors? That would be fun.

Em: Well, let’s see if it’s, uh, really does glow in the dark.

Christine: [scoffs]

[Em turns their phone’s flashlight on, holding it up against the front of the drink pouch.]

Em: I got a feeling it’s a no. I don’t even know what part’s supposed to glow in the dark. I assume the moon, yeah?

Christine: I would think so.

Em: Does it feel like it’s glowing? [chuckles]

[Em holds the pouch up to the camera, pushing the moon up close to it.]

Christine: Not even remotely.

Em: All right. Well, we tried, folks. Anyway, that’s what I drink. And you drink not your melon– That wasn’t even the question then. What do you drink?

Christine: Nothing.

Em: Oh, Christine.

Christine: I know. It’s sad.

Em: Well, to help you get through this windy week for you–

Christine: Get my mind off this dark time.

Em: –I have a story for you that I, I felt kind of silly because, as you know, last week we– I covered Scrim, which is the–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –what we’re calling an urban legend, mythical creature, according to the New York Times, but I’m aware that that’s not very, um, paranormal. And so I felt like I needed to double up this week to, um, atone for my sins, as you will.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: And so I, I bring you a poltergeist.

Christine: [gasps] Exciting.

Em: This is the, depending on who you talk to, Dagg Poltergeist or Dagg’s Demon.

Christine: Ooh!

Em: Dagg’s Demon.

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Em’s Story – Dagg’s Demon aka the Dagg Poltergeist

Em: [sighs] I did these notes in advance, so I will not– I’m gonna learn along with everybody. I know we’ve, uh– People are probably sick of me saying that after 500 episodes, but sometimes I just don’t know what I’m gonna say.

Christine: Em, they can’t be that sick of it ’cause we’re all here.

Em: That’s a great point. [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Okay. Um, okay. So the year is 1899. We know her well.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And this is in my favorite place, Canada.

Christine: Mm?

Em: This is in the Ottawa Valley.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: I don’t know enough about Canadian geography, but I think that’s Ottawa–

Christine: Do not even–

Em: –Ottawa and Qu-Quebec? Okay.

Christine: Do not– I mean, listen, I’m just gonna say whatever you say, Em.

Em: Okay. It’s in Canada. And there’s a guy named George Dagg. He’s a farmer.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And he has a wife, Susan, and he has, uh, three kids. Uh, you don’t really have to know their names, but I’ll give you it to you anyway: 5-year-old Mary, 2-year-old Johnny, and then an 11-year-old named Dinah, who apparently on records, her middle name was “Burden.” Yikes.

Christine: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That’s a choice.

Em: Crazy. Um–

Christine: Crazy choice.

Em: So she was adopted. They said that she’s–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –she was–

Christine: She was adopted and, and called a burden?

Em: That’s exactly right.

Christine: Whoa.

Em: And you’ll see why. Um, she was originally an “orphan,” and I say that in quotes because apparently her mom was around. I think it was maybe the 1899 equivalent to like a foster kid.

Christine: Okay, okay.

Em: Um, and so they– But they did adopt her. I don’t know what the situation was, but they adopted her. Um, they also had other orphans, maybe foster children, living with them on their farm to work as farmhands. So I think they had some sort of deal with the orphanage of like, “We’ll house them to give you more capacity for other orphans–“

Christine: Okay. I guess that [unintelligible].

Em: “–but they’ll work on our farm.”

Christine: Okay.

Em: It’s a little vague.

Christine: Mm.

Em: But um, but Dinah was apparently adopted by the family. So in September of 1889, George gave his wife Susan a $2 bill and a $5 bill, um, which are the equivalent to like $100 and $250 today.

Christine: Okay.

Em: And he gave her a $2 bill and a $5 bill the night before, uh, all of this craziness happens. He said, “Put it in the bedroom drawer for safekeeping.” And the next day, one of the farmhand kids came up to George and handed him a $5 bill, the one that should have been in his bedroom. But so now it looks like this kid has stolen it from George’s bedroom.

Christine: Oh, okay.

Em: Um–

Christine: But hands it back to George?

Em: I don’t understand that either.

Christine: Okay.

Em: I’m like, if he stole it, he’s doing a pretty bad job just handing it back.

Christine: Yeah, that’s why I don’t really understand. Yeah, okay.

Em: Uh, but so he’s like, “Where did you find this?” He says he found it– The kid says he found it in the kitchen. And George is like, “That is not possible. It–“

Christine: Hm.

Em: “Because it was in our bedroom drawer for safekeeping.” Um, so after checking the drawer and seeing, “Yep, the money that was supposed to be there is gone”–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –George accused the kid of taking the money. Um, George sounds like he’s a bit of a– What’s the word? A hothead. Let’s, let’s leave it there.

Christine: Yeah. He wasn’t gonna hear the kid out.

Em: Yeah. Especially when he’s like handing it to you – didn’t really steal it.

Christine: Yeah, it feels like he should get– cut him some slack, but okay.

Em: So he goes to the kid’s room, um, to see like, “Did you also steal the $2 bill?” And the kid’s like, “No, no, I didn’t steal it. I didn’t steal it.” But then George shakes the kid’s quilts on his bed, and the $2 bill fell out of the bed.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Yikes.

Christine: Oh no.

Em: Yikes. Uh, after this incident, uh, first of all, him and the kids did not have any trust for each other because this poor kid’s like, “I did not take the money. I don’t know why it’s here.”

Christine: “and I was trying to do the right thing.”

Em: Yeah. But after this incident, uh, many more odd things start happening around the farm, and, of course, Dean is suspect number one because of this one other weird situation.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: But the things happening around the farm are like jars of butter and milk buckets start emptying themselves. Um, a-at some point, the family–

Christine: Which sucks because like those are a lot of work. Like–

Em: That’s a lot of work–

Christine: –to get–

Em: –especially the jars of butter.

Christine: –to churn butter? I mean, that’s like hours and hours, and then it’s like it just dumps out. Like that’s really fucked up.

Em: And if I were on that farm, I could see people taking one look at me and going, “You obviously just ate all of our butter be–”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I, I get it.

Christine: We’re like sitting there with our Winnie the Pooh shirts on like with our hand in there like, “No?”

Em: [laughs] With our tummies out of our shirts.

Christine: [laughs] With our tummy– Our crop top and no pants, eating butter.

Em: Well, you know what? Being Winnie the Pooh feels like what we should call like enjoying a rainy day as like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –barely a shirt on–

Christine: No pants. Eating out of the container.

Em: Yeah, it just sounds so nice. Oh…

Christine: It actually sounds like most days of my life, so.

Em: I was gonna say that’s some– that’s how you should appreciate your windy, windy night tonight, but–

Christine: I will. Thank you.

Em: Yeah. Um, but yeah, so the, the butter’s going missing. The milk’s going missing. You know, I like milk also, so I feel like–

Christine: You're, you’re suspect number one here.

Em: I would be suspect number one.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But, um, eventually it got even crazier where the family started finding like fecal matter–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –smeared all over the house.

Christine: Oh no. Oh no.

Em: Like it went from money was stolen, but not really ’cause it’s being handed right back to you, to there’s poop in the house.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Um, and of course they blamed Dean. So George literally took him down to the courthouse and like– in front of a judge and was like, “I don’t know what to do with this kid.”

Christine: Oh, jeez.

Em: “fix this.” Um, but while they were gone, even more waste appeared through the house, and so–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –that at least absolved–

Christine: Let him off the hook, yeah.

Em: Yeah, let him off the hook. Um, so although this kid was not actually responsible, he certainly never came back to work for that farm again. He was–

Christine: Oh, good.

Em: –like, “Take me back to the orphanage. Like [chuckles] this is awful.”

Christine: Seriously. That’s, that’s– Yeah, not fun. And they lived there, right? Like he was living there.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Um, but so weird things are happening. And now the kid that they were blaming everything on isn’t even there.

Christine: Mm.

Em: So now they just have to face what’s going on. But around the same time, George’s parents were staying with the family. And one day, uh, George is walking around outside, and he looks in the house– or looks at the house as he’s walking towards it, and the windows start exploding one by one on their own.

Christine: What?

Em: That’s what he said. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] What?

Em: “Girl? Are you sure?” Um–

Christine: “Is anyone else seeing this?”

Em: Well, originally, he was thinking that someone was like throwing rocks at his window. He thought maybe–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –the kid came back and was retaliating and like throwing rocks at their window as like a big “fuck you.” So he literally tried to hide around the house as if he was living out his own like Call of Duty experience.

Christine: Oh boy.

Em: He was like hunkering down in different angles, trying to see where the rocks were coming from.

Christine: [chuckles] His own Call of Duty experience.

Em: And he’s, he’s watching these windows just “Pop! Pop! Pop!” explode, and there’s no one around to be throwing these rocks. Um, and there are no rocks. He realizes there’s no rocks. The windows are just exploding.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, I think eight in total ended up breaking.

Christine: Jesus, that’s expensive.

Em: So expensive, especially– You know they were on the top floor too.

Christine: Ugh. And back then like how the fuck do you even– You can’t just call like your local– What’s that, what’s that windowshield–

Em: You can’t even look it up on TikTok how to do it yourself?

Christine: Safe– [singing the Safelite jingle] ♪ Safelite repair, Safelite replace. ♪♪

Em: [laughs]

Christine: You can’t call any of these people.

Em: Ah, thank you. I just told, um, Christine before we recorded that I miss jingles.

Christine: [singing the Safelite jingle] ♪ Safelite repair, Safelite replace. ♪♪ Yep.

Em: Beautiful. What was your favorite jingle? You have a favorite one?

Christine: [singing the Recker & Boerger jingle] ♪ Recker & Boerger ♪♪

Em: Mm.

Christine: ♪ Comfort zone ♪♪ That was a local one. Uh, but it–

Em: We've done this, I think, apparently.

Christine: Yeah. Oh, it hit something in your brain? Yeah. My brother and I used to scream [singing to the tune of Recker & Boerger jingle] ♪ Wreck a man’s burger ♪♪ I don’t know. It wasn’t even funny, but that’s what we screamed. Yeah.

Em: What was yours? Um–

Christine: Was it a radio station?

Em: It was a HVAC company.

Christine: Oh.

Em: Oh, no, it’s a– for heat. Yeah, “heat and air, there’s just one name, Robert B. Payne.” Yeah.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs] And they said it just as monotone too. Um–

Christine: Yeah. They said it s– like so bored out of their skull.

Em: No, I used to love the, um, the Kraft Mac & Cheese theme song when, um– Remember when they had a little dinosaur as their i–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –as their mascot? They go, [singing Kraft Macaroni and Cheese jingle] ♪ It’s Cheesasaurus Rex ♪♪ [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Loved him. Um, okay. So anyway, the windows are exploding.

Christine: Oh no.

Em: Soon after this, small fires even begin starting all over the farm and like–

Christine: Oh no.

Em: –not even one at a time. Like s– there was a day where like eight broke out all at once, and six of them were inside the house.

Christine: So it’s trying to prove like this isn’t a little kid.

Em: Right. Yeah. And it’s also saying like, “I dare you to solve this problem.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: If, if all of a sudden, there’s six fires in different parts of your house, like where do you even go first?

Christine: It’s like, “Good luck.”

Em: I would cry.

Christine: No.

Em: Um, one time a window spontaneously caught on fire in front of the entire family and neighbors um, and it burned up the curtains–

Christine: [sighs] Jesus.

Em: –and everyone in the– everyone saw it happen. Th-there was no person to blame.

Christine: Right.

Em: And then things begin to happen to the family. So like Susan, the wife, she got splashed with water that just appeared out of nowhere. Their daughter got hit with a rock that came out of nowhere.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: She apparently felt no pain, which is nice.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But still, a rock got chucked at her right in the chest.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and then Dinah, the, uh, kid that they adopted, uh, Miss Burden, if you will–

Christine: Ah.

Em: –um, she had her hair yanked. One time, her braid was literally sliced almost all the way off by itself–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –as if something had cut it. Um–

Christine: Oh no.

Em: And then things would get thrown at her all the time. Some of them included: “a water jug, milk pitcher, wash basin, cream jug, butter tub, and other articles,” end quote.

Christine: Oh, shit.

Em: Um, but imagine a fucking pitcher getting just thrown at you, and then that’s not the end of it.

Christine: Yeah. And you have no one to even yell at.

Em: And a wash basin? I know that was dirty.

Christine: That’s heavy. Oh, yeah. And dirty.

Em: And heavy, yeah. It’s all bad. So one time Dinah and, uh, her grandma, George’s mom, were cleaning– I lo– I fucking love this woman. You’re gonna like– Well, I don’t know if you’re gonna like George’s mom, but I like her. Um, one time Dinah and Grandma were cleaning the kids’ bedroom, and I guess Grandma was not gonna fuck around with spooky stuff, with the spirits.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, she was not interested in this. And so Dinah, all of a sudden, claimed that she saw a “big black thing” messing with the linens in the room right behind Grandma. Like, “That thing’s messing–“ She said something like, “Oh, that thing’s messing with the bed.” Grandma turns around and doesn’t see anyone there, but the quilt is floating.

Christine: Oh-agh!

Em: Grandma’s not fucking having that.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: She believed Dinah right away. And I don’t know why she just had like a travel version of this one, but she just whipped out a, a literal bullwhip. She had a bullwhip on her. Grandma, what the hell’s going on here?

Christine: I, I hope that wasn’t for the kids.

Em: I hope not. I mean, they’re on a farm. I’m gonna, I’m gonna assume that– But she just happened to have a whip on her and handed–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –it to Dinah and literally told her, “Whatever it is that you see over there by the bed, beat it as hard as you fucking can.”

Christine: Oh!

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: Not how I would handle things, but, um, I like that Grandma was at least proactive and believed Dinah ’cause it seems like everybody else was–

Christine: And like, “You handle it.”

Em: [laughs] But like literally like encouraging– oh, the crazy. Like this is just like you could only get away with this in 1899 farmland. Um–

Christine: And if it’s your grandma–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and grandchild. That’s like the only relationship where this would happen I feel like.

Em: 100%.

Christine: “No, beat it up!”

Em: Like, like, “Rip it up.” I think she said like, “Hit it as hard as you can over and over and over again.” [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Um, Dinah started waling on this thing and made so much noise that the rest of the family came up. Neighbors from outside came in, being like, “What the fuck is going on in this house?” And they’re all watching her just like hit this thing that they can’t see, but they’re all cheering her on.

Christine: Whoa.

Em: So weird. Um, I can’t even imagine. This feels like they would cut it out of a horror movie because it would accidentally be too funny. Like–

Christine: It’s a little too ridiculous. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. Um, and whatever she was hitting, um– Apparently, they then heard like the sound of a pig squeal–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and then apparently, the energy in the house went away, at least for that night.

Christine: Ooh, okay.

Em: Um, eventually, activity did pick up again, and music could be heard playing in different rooms–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –especially harmonicas.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: Um, beds would get torn apart. There was a note for– written out as if it was to Dinah, but nobody claimed to be the person who wrote it. It was just a note–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –that they found, and in it, it said, “You gave me 15 cuts.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Yuck.

Christine: Ew! That’s way too specific and weird.

Em: Another time, this is a quote, “a large shelf was seen to move across the room onto the floor,” so threw itself off the wall. “Immediately after, a rocking chair began rocking furiously.”

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: “Then a washboard was sent flying down the stairs from the lofts, even though no one was in the loft at the time.” So–

Christine: Is it just running around like pulling stuff off the walls? Like how is it even–

Em: It feels like Queer Eye a little bit where we’re just taking–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –everything off the wall, and we’re like, “Nothing will do.”

Christine: “Trash, trash, trash.” Yeah.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, it’s just everything’s getting moved around non-stop. And it’d be one– If a shelf fell off the wall in front of me, that’s enough to scare me for the next four months.

Christine: [laughs] Four months?

Em: Minimum. But the fact that immediately after there’s also a rocking chair, and then there’s also another thing, then there’s another thing and– I would be like, “This feels like an animatronic jump scare house.”

Christine: It feels like Beauty and the Beast.

Em: [laughs] Yeah, it does.

Christine: Like the big candlestick’s gonna start singing in a second.

Em: [laughs] Um, well, it was all around this time that all three of the children are now telling their parents pretty regularly that they see this entity, whatever it is. ’Cause Dinah originally just saw it as like this big black shadowy mass.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, but now the other kids are seeing it too. And it was described to, uh– At different times, it was described as different things. It would like morph.

Christine: Mm.

Em: I hate that. Um, and it would morph into, quote, “a tall thin man with a cow’s head, horns, and cloven feet.”

Christine: Eugh.

Em: “At another time, a big black dog. And later,” which we have not gotten to this point in the story yet, but, “as a beautiful man with long white hair, dressed in white, wearing a crown with stars in it.” It’s giving–

Christine: What the fuck?

Em: That one’s giving Jesus a little bit.

Christine: It is, but it’s giving like knockoff Jesus.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like put some stars on his crown. What?

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. And long white hair. It’s like, “Ooh, we almost got it.”

Christine: Yeah, Jesus doesn’t have that.

Em: Um, at the same time that the kids are now seeing this person everywhere, the entity began speaking to, not just the kids and family, but literally anyone. Like you and I could walk into the house, and this thing just starts talking to you. And not in one words– but like one-word phrases, in like full conversations.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: It was often in a very heavy, gravelly male voice. And one time, the daughter, Mary, uh, saw this creature in the doorway. And apparently when they asked her what he was doing, she said that he was pouring sugar onto the oven.

Christine: What?

Em: Feels very like uncanny valley Black-Eyed Kids, not knowing how things work.

Christine: Yeah, Amelia Bedelia.

Em: Yeah, very Amelia Bedelia.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Um, so it was just pouring sugar onto the oven–

Christine: What?

Em: –and then when she tried to talk to it, it asked her, “Do you want to come to hell with me?”

Christine: Uh!

Em: “Nope.”

Christine: “No, thanks.”

Em: “I’m okay.”

Christine: “I’m busy that day.”

Em: “I have a tummy ache.” Um, other times, it spoke, uh– Other times when it spoke, it would scream curses– This is a very– This is silly to me. It would scream curses so foul that newspapers in 1899 could only refer to it as “barnyard language.”

Christine: Ah! Barnyard language – or as my stepdad calls it, “sailor speak.” [laughs]

Em: Yeah, yeah. It was censored by the press. Um–

Christine: Wow.

Em: Another time, a neighborhood boy named Charlie thought that he heard the voice. And by this point, like the locals all know what’s going on.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So I think they’re all kind of just able to walk in and out of each other’s houses just to–

Christine: Yeah, you can probably like walk by and– I mean, they don’t have windows anymore, so you could probably hear everything going on inside.

Em: Yeah. Well, s– [chuckles] That’s a great point. So a neighborhood boy named Charlie, he thought that he heard a voice, and so he peaked into one of the rooms. I’m assuming he kind of just went through the front door and gave a quick look around.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Nobody was there, but a hat with a potato in it came flying at his head.

Christine: A hat with a p– That’s– See, this sounds like something I would do like as a teenager to like–

Em: Well, also the sugar in the oven. Like it’s–

Christine: Yeah, it feels like absurd. Like it’s like– Okay, a potato– Sorry. A potato in a hat?

Em: A potato in a hat came flying at him. This was in newspapers. And like when he was like 85, they–

Christine: This is so bizarre.

Em: –brought him back to talk about it again, and he was still like, “A potato in a hat hit me in the face.” [chuckles]

Christine: Wow. Wow.

Em: Um, and he heard this thing scream, “Get out of here, Charlie, you sneak!” [chuckles]

Christine: I mean, it sounds like he was being a little bit of a sneak.

Em: Yeah, honestly, like he was called out–

Christine: Sneaking around.

Em: –properly for that.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Another time, a reverend heard laughter from the house after his Bible went missing.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And guess where he found that fucking Bible? In the oven.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: What is going on with this oven?

Christine: Oh, I don’t like that.

Em: I feel like the oven is accidentally like a portal to hell.

Christine: It has to either be– Yeah, it feels like it, doesn’t it?

Em: Because he was putting sugar on the oven, this creature, and then said, “Do you want to come to hell with me?” as if he was prepping his–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –his entrance there, and then the Bible was found in there.

Christine: Do you know what I think of too is like–

Em: Mm? Tell me.

Christine: Salt. You know, when people use salt to kind of create boundaries. I know sugar is different, but–

Em: I know what you’re saying.

Christine: –it just makes me think of that.

Em: I don’t think that’s the craziest thing either of us have ever said. I think if it’s the opposite of salts, it almost sweetens the–

Christine: Yeah, it’s like a draw, like draw them in.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Nectar.

Em: I’m with you. I think that’s a good– That’s a– I don’t know. Witches, weigh in. Uh–

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: –if sugar does the opposite effect. Um, other family friends would lose their items whenever they were at the house, and later when they had stopped or given up looking for the items–

Christine: Yeah, they’re sugar. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] They’re potatoes and hats.

Christine: [laughs] “Where’s my hat?” “I don’t know. My potato’s been missing.”

Em: [laughs] Um, they would give up looking for the item, and then later, it would literally fall down out of thin air. Um–

Christine: Oh, that happened to me with that weird fireplace key falling out of my shorts.

Em: Yeah, that’s fucking crazy.

Christine: [chuckles] It’s like, “What is this vintage fireplace key? And why was it in my butt? I don’t know.”

Em: How come– [laughs] How come across generations, like if you’re in the past, present, or future, that’s like a ghost’s favorite trick?

Christine: Well, I think it’s something about like a– I don’t know what the, the word is, but I just was reading like a glitch in the matrix compilation, and somebody said that like one example was, “Oh, I lost my favorite, um–“ It’s like a hair clip or something, and they were like, “Five years later, I was in a different place like showering, and something fell out of my hair, and it was like whatever hair clip that was or whatever–“

Em: Ugh.

Christine: “–from five years earlier.” So I’m like I don’t know. I feel like things just kind of like poof and then reappear?

Em: Horrifying. There was–

Christine: It’s really strange.

Em: I just saw on TikTok there was this one girl who was kind of freaking out, and she was like, “Um, so I bought this like really cool ring when I was in Italy. Um, and I just went into my bag to grab it, and there are two, and I’m no longer in Italy.”

Christine: Oh!

Em: “How did– Why are there two?” And she cannot explain it.

Christine: Okay, those freak me the fuck out. ’Cause there was one of those where this woman was looking for her kid’s shoes, and she found two of the left shoe–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –and then like found the other one. So then they had like an extra of like this like Ariel mermaid like slipper. Like it wasn’t– And it was so bizarre. And then there was a picture of all of them, and I’m like, “This is just creepy, dude.”

Em: Yeah. Could not be me.

Christine: Ugh.

Em: At least not sane afterwards. I–

Christine: And I remember people were like, “You must have bought two pairs.” And she was like, “I will go through every receipt. Like this is not–“

Em: That's the same with this girl and the ring. She’s like, “I know I bought one ring off of this like random man in Italy or something and–“

Christine: Oh, that is so weird.

Em: Eugh. Yuck.

Christine: Eugh.

Em: Yuck, yuck, yuck. Um, as I mentioned earlier, um, with the neighborhood boy, Mr. Potato Head, um– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –as I’m gonna call him, uh, the activity became so common that the entire town knew what was going on in this house. It just became normal that if you were at that house, you would probably witness something. Um, including like, remember, the curtains caught on fire.

Christine: It's exciting.

Em: Yeah. Um–

Christine: I’d go over there.

Em: You would what?

Christine: I’d go over there to hang out.

Em: I would too. And als–

Christine: See, see what there is to see.

Em: At this point– I mean, I guess there wasn’t ghost hunting equipment yet, but like if I had any and I was there, I’d be like, “Let’s, let’s–“

Christine: You just need a bullwhip.

Em: You know, you would think the bullwhip would have taught this thing a thing or two, but it sounds like he’s still appearing.

Christine: Yeah, it sounds like he’s just been kind of– had to go lick his wounds and come back.

Em: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Christine: His 15 cuts.

Em: “You gave me 15 cuts.”

Christine: It’s so gross.

Em: Beg to differ. Also, like if it wasn’t this like 11-year-old pranking all of us, imagine how horrified she must be.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And she’s being named “Burden.” [chuckles] Crazy.

Christine: I mean, at this point, I get it. She is a burden, to me, in– at least while you’re telling me the story. I feel burdened.

Em: The family is certainly inconvenienced. Uh–

Christine: I feel inconvenienced also, yeah.

Em: With– Because a lot of the activity is specifically focused on her. I’m kind of giving like an, an overall–

Christine: Right.

Em: –generalization of what’s happening in the house, but most of the activity is happening near her, which is–

Christine: Gotcha, okay.

Em: –I think where the name comes from. But, um, yeah, so everyone in town knew about this, and the spirit, like I said, was talking to anyone about anything, had no problem holding conversations. He was willing to show itself to anyone, um, by speaking. And eventually George Dagg, he went looking for help and found this healer known as the Witch of Plumb Hollow.

Christine: That feels like an Etsy store.

Em: It does.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: And I want to know what the nearest hollow to me is. Um, so I can–

Christine: The nearest holler?

Em: Holler. Holla. Hollow. I feel like that’s how we got hollow, right? ’Cause it was like a, a dialect situation from holler? No?

Christine: I think hollow– I think it is a hollow. But holler–

Em: Are hollows and hollers different?

Christine: No, I think holler is just the, uh, the like Appalachian or Southern way to say it.

Em: Okay. So it– Okay, good to know. The Plumb of Witch Holler. That’s what– [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Uh, or wait, the Witch of Plumb Holler. [chuckles] So, um–

Christine: Oh. Oh, yeah.

Em: He goes–

Christine: “The Plumb of Witch Holler.” [chuckles] Okay.

Em: [laughs] So he goes to this healer, and she tells George that the spirit was conjured by a widow in town and her two kids, and it was on purpose.

Christine: Aw, leave the widow alone.

Em: Especially because in town there was only one widow with two kids.

Christine: [sighs] Of course there was.

Em: And, uh, everyone said, “Well, that must be Mrs. Wallace,” who’s never had a problem with the family. She has no problem with Dinah.

Christine: This poor lady.

Em: The, the healer even said, “Um, oh, she’s doing this to bother Dinah.”

Christine: What?

Em: And they literally went and confronted Mrs. Wallace, and she was like, “I literally don’t fucking care about you or m–“

Christine: “I’m literally trying to raise my children by myself. Like fuck off.”

Em: [chuckles] She’s like, “I don’t care about Dinah. I’m sorry. I–“

Christine: “No, I have my own kids– burdens to deal with.” [laughs]

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. Bigger fish to fry. So um, it didn’t stop though. They decided that she must be responsible. So they kept that in the back of their mind. Eventually, the press got involved, and one reporter in particular – his name was Percy Woodcock.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: And Percy Woodcock, when he got there, he asked Dinah, um, at the house like, “Oh, I know that you’re– this thing seems to follow you around. When was the last time you heard from this entity that’s willing to talk to all of the people in town?” And Dinah said, “Oh, I just talked to him in the shed.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And Percy went, “Well, please escort me to the shed.” So–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –Percy goes there and asks the spirit to identify itself, and then he hears a voice in the shed that says, “I am the devil. I’ll have you in my clutches. Get out of here, or I’ll break your neck.”

Christine: Jesus Chr– I mean, okay, relax.

Em: Yeah, back up. It’s fine.

Christine: Like holy shit. Calm down.

Em: So um, Percy Woodcock was not rattled by this. Uh, he ended up talking to this spirit for like five hours. And I–

Christine: He’s like, “I– I’ll– I’m the only one who understands him.”

Em: Imagine the spirit like just had so many plans that day, and now he’s just cornered in a shed with this man who won’t leave him alone, and now they’re talking for five hours. [chuckles]

Christine: It’s like, it’s like, “make yourself at home,” but like took it too far, you know?

Em: Yeah. Yeah. Well, whenever Percy Woodcock said something that offended the spirit, it seemed that Dinah and the spirit had some sort of weird attachment to each other because if the spirit ever got offended, Dinah would start acting as if she’d been punched or scratched by the entity.

Christine: Okay. So she’s being like the– Okay. Yeah, got it.

Em: The conduit or whatever the word is.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, now also if she was the one who was up to all this and somehow learned ventriloquism and was throwing her voice–

Christine: Which, which these little girls have. Which we’ve seen have– has happened back in the day.

Em: People– I mean, you get bored in 1899 on a farm.

Christine: I get it. Listen, if I had any of these toe knuckle tapping–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –I would have taken advantage of that long ago.

Em: Especially like what’s a woman to do when they can’t make money?

Christine: Seriously, and no one’s listening to you.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And finally, they are.

Em: And they’re calling you a burden? It’s like, “I’ll be a fucking burden then. How ‘bout that?”

Christine: Seriously. “I’ll snap your fucking neck. How ‘bout that?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Can’t say that when you’re–

Em: “I’ll bust all your good windows, and I’ll eat your fucking butter while I’m at it.”

Christine: “And I’ll throw a potato right into your fucking nose. Okay?”

Em: Yeah. [laughs] Well, so she starts acting like she’s being punched or scratched, which some would say that anytime there was a question she probably couldn’t answer, she distracted people by acting–

Christine: “Ahh!” Yeah.

Em: –hurt, yeah.

Christine: “Look over there!” Yeah.

Em: Um, but in this conversation, this five-hour shed conversation, Percy Woodcock found out that the spirit was purely here to cause mischief, brought here, confirmed, by Mrs. Wallace and her kids, these– this random woman who’s just trying to make ends meet.

Christine: [scoffs]

Em: When one of the witnesses actually heard this, because of course people are coming over to the shed.

Christine: Oh, the witnesses. Right.

Em: One of them ran into Wallace’s house, and they were like, “Girl, this devil is talking about you again. You better come–”

Christine: “Lock the fucking door.”

Em: [chuckles] He–

Christine: Oh, oh, she’s coming down to the station, down to the–

Em: To confront–

Christine: –barnyard.

Em: –to confront this spirit. And she comes down, and she pretty much says like, “You’re a big fat liar. Why are you telling everyone all my problems?” Um, and we don’t hear any more of that story. I would love to hear how that ended, but she ends up just–

Christine: That is like prime drama, though.

Em: I– And that’s why I feel like it should have ended in a nice little bow for me–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –selfishly.

Christine: Totally.

Em: So she came over and yelled at it. The spirit quickly moved on, saying, “Oh, well, [gibberish stammering]– Uh, would you like to know what type of, uh, person I used to be before I died? I am the spirit of an 80-year-old man.” It’s like, “Okay.” And apparently, he died 20 years ago on the property.

Christine: Gross.

Em: That’s what he started telling everybody. And when they asked for his name, the spirit said, “I– I’ll tell you, but I’ll have to kill you.”

Christine: [laughs] Okay. T– That’s out of the old playbook.

Em: That’s what George and Percy Woodcock said because, uh, they were both like, “Okay, I dare you. Like you– Kill us then. Like tell us your name.”

Christine: “Come on down.”

Em: “Tell us your name, and then you can kill us.” Um, so they both, uh, dared this thing. The thing apparently whispered into their ears what the name was. And surprise, surprise, neither of them ended up dying.

Christine: Oh, I was like, “Oh my god, they’re dead.”

Em: That would be crazy, but no. Um, this does feel like an 11-year-old kind of put this all together ’cause I feel like–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –“And then this happened, and then this random thing happened.”

Christine: “Oh, oh, oh! And then they said this word, and it was a bad word.” [chuckles]

Em: Yeah, yeah. “Barnyard language.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So during this conversation, Percy Woodcock made Dinah keep water in her mouth to make sure that she was not the voice of the spirit.

Christine: [gasps] Oh, that’s genius.

Em: And he also put out a paper and pencil for this thing to write something. And apparently, he watched the pencil fly away after the spirit said that he would steal it, steal the pencil.

Christine: [chuckles] “It’s mine now.” Okay.

Em: Well, you know what’s so funny about– So to answer the question, she did have water in her mouth, and apparently, they could still hear this voice. So I don’t know what to do with that information, but fun fact, it doesn’t seem to have been her voice being thrown.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: But with the pencil thing, I thought it was funny ’cause he was like, “I’m gonna leave this right here, and if you want to write anything, let me know.” And he saw the pencil move by itself, and then when he went up to read it, apparently, he– whatever it said on there was not friendly or PG. [chuckles] And he said, “I said write something decent.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Apparently, that was his response. [laughs] And that’s when the spirit stole his pencil. It was like– It’s like, “I’m not gonna write anything then.”

Christine: “Decent is boring.”

Em: Um, so he– After five hours, the spirit agreed that, uh, the family does not need him to be causing any more mischief. He will stop bothering the family, but he’ll stop bothering them tomorrow. And when they asked why not today, right now, the spirit said first he needs a crowd to say goodbye. Okay.

Christine: Oh god. Why do they always want a fucking performance?

Em: All– Every time they do.

Christine: They want to give a big fucking show. These egos of these demons.

Em: Uh, the next day, the spirit voice does in fact reappear to say goodbye to everybody, but all of a sudden, it sounds much nicer. And I don’t know what to do with this storyline. I feel like I’m missing chapters here, but apparently, he sounds much nicer than he did yesterday. And in response, the spirit says, “Well, I’m actually a different person. I’m an angel who will help drive out the last guy.”

Christine: No. Bullshit.

Em: It’s– 100%. I’m like, “Well, I don’t understa–”

Christine: Bullshit.

Em: Okay. So then–

Christine: The 11-year-old is back at it.

Em: Well, then the spirit, who is also not the spirit and is an angel and therefore good, not bad like the spirit–

Christine: Yeah, you can– Just put on a mustache, and “let me stay.”

Em: [laughs] Like the glasses with a little mustache.

Christine: Yeah. And then put on the fake– uh, put on some like strap-on angel wings and like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –from fucking Spirit Halloween. Here we go.

Em: The spirit then starts mocking a reverend. I thought he was an angel, and now he’s–

Christine: Yeah, exactly. It’s this fucking demon going, “Yeah, get a load of that last guy. Right, everyone?”

Em: I know. And this same thing when, um– It’s very similar to the like, “I told you to write something decent.” Like just like–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –the fact that there’s something funny that happened all that time ago. Apparently, when he’s mocking the reverend– The reverend used to be like a photographer in town. Um, and I guess he starts mocking and saying, “I’m a better preacher than you’ll ever be.” He tells the reverend go back to photography. [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs] Oh my god. “Don’t quit your day job is what he’s saying.” Holy sh– Or do quit your day job. Holy shit.

Em: The s– The spirit should quit its day job and go straight into comedy because this is very funny.

Christine: A str– standup star, superstar.

Em: After the reverend took off, the spirit changed its voice again back to an angelic voice, claiming that now it’s ve– it’s good. It’s very good, not evil at all.

Christine: “I won’t do it ever again.”

Em: [chuckles] “Not, not at all. And that reverend, he’s being dramatic. It was not that bad what I said.”

Christine: “And he should go back to photography. The angel was right.”

Em: Yeah, he–

Christine: “The demon was right.”

Em: “The photographer– I’m sorry. The reverend–“

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “–is offended.”

Christine: “If that’s what we’re calling him.”

Em: It be– This thing started then singing religious songs, uh–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and talking to everyone in a very kind way. And apparently, his singing was so beautiful that it made the townspeople cry, so I don’t know what the fuck’s going on over here.

Christine: Okay. First of all, is this, is this a real person now?

Em: Is this a real story? Like this–

Christine: Is he going around like, like–

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: Are people swooning? I don’t understand. Is this like a voice from the heavens? Is it like an actual person in town?

Em: I would imagine it has to sound like an amphitheater or something and they’re just all hearing this voice together. I don’t know.

Christine: And then it starts singing, and they start crying. [chuckles]

Em: I feel like I– Like I feel like I’m giving you bullet points where like context would be helpful here, and it would, but there’s no other context.

Christine: Yeah, I mean–

Em: This feels like it’s just jumping around. It really does feel like–

Christine: –what’re you gonna do?

Em: –a kid is making this up as like–

Christine: It’s always with these ones that last several weeks or days or whatever where it’s like, “What’s even happening? This whole town has lost its mind.”

Em: And then it’s getting out of hand, and then the kid doesn’t know what to do. And it’s like–

Christine: But then I’m like, is there ergot poisoning or whatever? Like what’s happening? Everyone’s losing it.

Em: [chuckles] So this thing starts singing. I don’t know if people can see it. It sounds like no. I don’t– But then like people can hear it everywhere. So it sings so beautifully everyone cries. Then it does finally leave later in the day. But the last time the spirit was actually seen was the next morning when it came to give an official goodbye to the three Dagg children who were able to see him all along.

Christine: Okay.

Em: And–

Christine: He got to do a special goodbye for them.

Em: And this was the time where I told you earlier Pete– they– that the kids saw him as like a beautiful man with white hair–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and he looked like knockoff Jesus. This is when they see him as he’s saying goodbye and he’s told the entire town he’s actually an angel, even though he’s been doing horrible things for months–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –but he’s an angel. Now, the last time anyone sees him, he does look angelic compared to the other things. And then he floats away. And others in town remember seeing a fire strike the sky, and nobody ever witnessed the spirit again. I feel like this kid had the whole town at gunpoint and was like–

Christine: That’s what I’m saying, right? Like what happened to these people that they all felt the need to–

Em: Embellish this. Like–

Christine: –share this experience? Yeah.

Em: I feel like this is a crazy game of telephone, and everyone’s like new detail actually stuck.

Christine: Right.

Em: Like it just kept–

Christine: Right.

Em: It feels like everybody was like, “Well, we’re bored, and I need to feel like I contributed to the story in some way so–“

Christine: It’s like a group project with no boundaries whatsoever.

Em: [laughs] Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So before, um, uh– This is Percy Woodcock, that reporter. Before leaving town, he had t– over– he had up to 20 people or nearly 20 people sign a witness testimony–

Christine: Jeez.

Em: –of everything that they saw and experienced, so that way he could publish this in his local paper. And he had like 17 people sign that they all witnessed everything I just said.

Christine: Wow.

Em: And as soon as all these– all the activity started dying down, the Daggs – [scoffs] this is so fucked up – packed up Dinah and moved her to a different orphan’s home.

Christine: Oh, Dinah.

Em: Once she was gone, the poltergeist never came back either, so I don’t know what that tells you.

Christine: Mm.

Em: But it sounds like Dinah, aka “the burden” or whatever she was called–

Christine: Like to get a nick– to get a middle name like burden, it’s like even if that’s a some sort of a family name or something, it’s like–

Em: [chuckles] Right.

Christine: –why would you put that on your– a baby, a child?

Em: And like someone who’s already had to deal with like being a part of the adoption process and all that? Like it just–

Christine: But like it– Was that the name that she was given at birth or like upon her adoption?

Em: We don’t know.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Don’t know anything. Um–

Christine: Hm.

Em: And it’s said that, even creepier at the end of all this – which this feels like it could become a true crime if only we had the–

Christine: For sure.

Em: –Uh, the data – but once she was living somewhere else– She still had a surviving uncle who I guess she would visit from time to time. And one weekend, she was at her uncle’s house, and a strange man came to her uncle’s house–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and said, “I’m here on behalf of the Dagg family. I need you to come with me.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And she did and was never seen again.

Christine: [gasps] What?

Em: Arguably, the craziest and most believable part of it all.

Christine: Yes, that’s the worst part and the most believable. Oh no.

Em: Because chances are someone who is obsessing over the, the news articles that came out just found her and just– I don’t know. Maybe thought like–

Christine: What do they want with her?

Em: Yeah. Just– They said, “Oh, I’m– You need to come with me.” And maybe they thought like they would hurt her to like end the spooky paranormal stuff. Maybe they– I don’t know what happened to her.

Christine: [sighs]

Em: Um, the house still stands, even though it’s from 1899, by the way. And as far as I know, the same family has lived there since the ‘80s. And the–

Christine: Where is it?

Em: It is in Canada.

Christine: Oh, Canada.

Em: Um, it’s–

Christine: Ottawa.

Em: Ottawa Valley.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: The– It’s in a town near Clarendon. Um–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –but, uh, the same family that’s been there since the ‘80s is apparently still there, and the– They used to be the kids there. Now they’re obviously adults themselves, but they swear that that house was absolutely fucking haunted.

Christine: Mm. I mean, you have all those kids from different backgrounds coming together, living under one roof, going through puberty, like having to work, labor for their housing. It’s just– Yeah.

Em: And it’s interesting that 100 years later we’re still hearing that there was a ghost there, but now it manifests itself in totally, quote, “modern ways” like–

Christine: Oh?

Em: Because the kids that grew up there in the ‘80s are s-saying like, “Oh, yeah, we would always hear someone on the stairs, and then it would stop right before our door.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: “Um, we– There was one door upstairs that would constantly open itself and slam itself all night long. We would see a little girl in white walking through the kitchen. She would walk through the walls and doors. We heard crawling and scratching in the attic.” But so–

Christine: Jeez.

Em: –like none of that has anything to do with everything I just said, you know.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Anyway, that–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –that’s the story. I feel like this is kind of like the worst poltergeist case I’ve ever covered ’cause there’s no real beginning, middle, or end. It was just kind of a list of things that happened.

Christine: I don’t know. I would say the climax of this whole story was a potato in a hat getting chucked–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –at that one kid.

Em: Well, I, uh, I was trying to find a poltergeist case, and this one came up, and I– It d– I would say that– I don’t think she should have been like brought to a new orphanage–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –but I do think this was an 11-year-old bored on a farm.

Christine: It sounds like maybe that was the case, which I feel like isn’t that what happened sort of with– perhaps with Jeff the Mongoose–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and perhaps with the Fox Sisters and perhaps with a lot of these other–

Em: It’s a lot of bored girls in the 1800s.

Christine: I get it, man. I would– I did way dumber things with my time.

Em: And that tells me, by the way, that, um, this interest in spooky things is universal because–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –if they had paranormal podcasts back then–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –they would have just channeled their energy into a totally different thing.

Christine: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, kids are [chuckles] always gonna pull nonsense, I guess.

Em: I guess so. Yeah.

Christine: Especially when they’re bored.

Em: Well, that’s the Dagg Poltergeist or Dagg’s Demon.

Christine: Very good.

Em: [sighs] There you go.

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Christine’s Story – Matthew Johnson

Christine: Okay. Well, hello everyone.

Em: Fun.

Christine: We’re back–

Em: Hello, everybody.

Christine: –for my section which is crime, crime, crime. Or what did I call it? Bad stuff?

Em: Bad stuff.

Christine: Now, I had one of those weeks where– Tell me if this happens to you ever, Em, where like you’ll be trying to pick a story and every time you like start on a story, you just get to a point where you’re like, “Mm,” and–

Em: Ugh. [sighs]

Christine: –like scrap it, you know?

Em: I’ve been there. I’m just gonna leave it at that.

Christine: And it’s not like anything’s inherently wrong with the topic. It’s just like either– It’s not flowing. It's not working. It’s just not interesting to me anymore. Like, I don’t know. Or it just doesn’t, doesn’t work in a notes– in my notes format. I don’t know. Just, just wasn’t working.

Em: Been there, been there, been there.

Christine: Happened so many times. And finally– It was literally yesterday. I was like, “I have been all week trying to pick a story, and I’ve watched so many different documentaries. I’ve read so many different articles, and blah blah blah.” Anyway, I finally found this story, and because I was on a time crunch, it is a developing– a somewhat developing story. Um–

Em: Mm!

Christine: –it is in the past, but the trial is ongoing, and so I thought, “Well, I’ll research this.” Um, and it’s quite short, so– But I’ve also done so many long ones lately, I figure, you know, can’t hurt.

Em: Rock on. Wait, so wait, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick.

Christine: Mm-hmm?

Em: So what is your, um– You seem to be going through like a little moment where you’re like not just sticking with stories that like have a full completion. Like–

Christine: Yeah. No, I’m just kind of like exploring. I, I think it’s because of all the current events, I’ve been just more attuned to what’s going down. And so, when it comes to true crime, I’m finally like actually following stories as they’re breaking.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And I think it’s just naturally led to like more open-ended, less cohesive stories because they’re not all like wrapped up yet, you know?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um–

Em: Interesting.

Christine: But yeah, so that’s probably what this one is. Although, um, it did happen in 2024, so we’re quite a ways away from it now. Um, but this is the disappearance of Matthew Johnson.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So this took place in Cottonwood Heights, Utah, a suburb in Utah. 51-year-old military husband. He was a Green Beret, um, gave over a decade of service, was now retired, and his wife, Jennifer, was 42. Uh, he was described as a really fun guy, um, great dad, family man. Jennifer was described [chuckles] by, by, uh, Matthew’s friends as, quote, “nice.”

Em: [chuckles] Oh…

Christine: And I went, “That’s not a good sign.”

Em: No. I– And also, [chuckles] in general, if someone just described me as “nice,” it’d be like, “Oh, boy. I need more than that.”

Christine: “That’s it?” Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: That’s, that’s– Yikes. And when I was a kid, I remember we did like this thing where you passed around a piece of paper with your name on it and everyone wrote a word that made– and I got the word “nice” like six times–

Em: [sucks in breath]

Christine: –and then I got the word “weird” three times.

Em: Aww…

Christine: And I got one–

Em: So you’re only twice as nice as you are weird.

Christine: I got one funny.

Em: Okay. Are you still friends with that person?

Christine: I don’t know who wrote it. That was the other thing is like it was all in different people’s handwritings.

Em: Mm.

Christine: I don’t know who called me weird. Yes, I do.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I figured it out.

Em: Did you just write it three times yourself or–?

Christine: [laughs] It was my teacher. No.

Em: Aww.

Christine: Uh, [laughs] okay. So he is a retired military guy. Um, he’s 51. His wife’s 42. Uh, they have three kids, two boys and one girl. Their ages are 11, 7, and 5. This Cottonwood Heights area in Utah is this upscale neighborhood, um, just very Utah, you know. Uh, the family itself is a very picturesque family. Picture like two blonde parents with three cute blonde kids, and in the family photo, they’re all wearing white, you know, and–

Em: ‘kay.

Christine: –in a field somewhere at sunset. Like it’s– They’re very all-American, you know, kind of cliche.

Em: Okay. Love it.

Christine: So Jennifer Gledhell, uh, she got to a point at– around the age of 42, which was July 2024, where she was not quite happy in her marriage–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and she told friends she was considering getting a divorce from her husband. So in August, which was a month later, she filed for protective order, claiming she needed protection. And when the judge took a look at this, he watched the videos she had sent in as like evidence of this to back her– back up her statement. The judge found the videos, uh, of her equally confrontational in the videos and said that her own texts were “repeatedly berating, belittling, and demeaning, if not outright attempting to goad her husband into a violent response.”

Em: Oh my.

Christine: So the judge was like, “Nice try. You don’t need a protection order. You’re just as violent and like prone to outburst as your husband. So–“

Em: Okay.

Christine: “–you don’t get the, you don’t get the, uh, protection order.”

Em: The protection.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah. Okay.

Christine: So “the conduct of the parties,”, um, as the judge said, “over the past several months is representative of a highly dysfunctional marriage bringing out the worst in the parties, clearly suggestive that an action for divorce should have been filed long before reaching the current state of affairs.” So things are just looking dicey.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: In 2024, um, he-her behavior started to change, and she started to get more aggressive, especially after the protection order failed and it seemed that the judge didn’t believe her version of events. Um, she apparently, allegedly, acted so disturbingly that Matthew himself ended up sleeping at a National Guard facility in Utah–

Em: Jeez.

Christine: –out of concerns for his own safety. So he was clearly uncomfortable even just being in the house with her.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Little did he know that Jennifer was already starting on her double life.

Em: Mm.

Christine: September 19, 2024, uh, Jennifer went over to her lover’s house and showed him her Glock 19X.

Em: What a s– What a fun thing to show somebody.

Christine: Isn’t that romantic?

Em: “Here’s my big fat gun.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Why?

Christine: And he was like, “I didn’t think anything of it.” And I’m like, okay.

Em: Okay. Well, maybe that’s just your culture. I–

Christine: Sure.

Em: Just not part of that world.

Christine: So that was September 19. She then arranged for her kids to stay at her parents’ house. And on September 20, according to neighbors, they heard a loud confrontation, a heated argument, coming from the house. Uh, apparently, Matthew confronted her because he knew Jennifer had been sleeping with someone else.

Em: Ooh. Okay.

Christine: And all their marital problems kind of like bubbled to the surface, and people just described like an all-out–

Em: Brawl?

Christine: –brawl. Yeah.

Em: Mm.

Christine: In the early hours of September 21, 2024, as Matthew slept in his bed, Jennifer took her Glock, shot her husband in the head, and then hid his body in a rooftop storage container, and slid it down the stairs to get it into her car–

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: –and drive it to a shallow grave.

Em: Was this– Well, maybe you’ll tell me, but was any of this pre-planned? Or is she now having to just go dig a grave? Just to–

Christine: Well, it was not not pre-planned, but it was not really methodical in nature.

Em: It had been daydreamt about.

Christine: Clearly, she’d been thinking about this if the day before she’s like showing her gun to her boyfriend.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And then, um, she waited ’til he fell asleep, ’til her husband fell asleep and shot him. So it’s like clearly she was waiting for this opportunity.

Em: And I– Like I wonder what this brawl looked like or how it ended ’cause if he was already feeling unsafe in his own house, I wonder–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –if she did some sort of like the classic line of like, “Don’t leave. Like let’s make this work and–“

Christine: Yeah, “Stay here.”

Em: “Just, just stay the night with me.” Just so that–

Christine: Yeah, if he was sleeping elsewhere.

Em: –she could–

Christine: Yeah, exactly. It’s a little bit weird.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So it feels like sort of planned, sort of not planned, you know. It’s like–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: I feel like it was like not off the table, you know–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and then it kind of all came to a head pretty quickly. Um, so– [sighs] My god. She went and got carpet cleaning supplies, bleach, um, ordered a new– Well, we’ll get to the new mattress. Ordered a new mattress, let’s put that out there for now. September 22– [sighs] Um, so that was on September 21, like the middle of the night, so early September 21. Now, the following day, September 22, just before midnight, she showed up at her boyfriend’s house and told him everything.

Em: Mm. I don’t know h– I would hate that if I were the boyfriend. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I’d go, “Please don’t tell me that.”

Christine: Hey, guess what? He didn’t fucking like that one bit.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. He noticed her bruises and said, “What is going on? What happened to you?” and she said, “Oh, I got them while burying Matthew’s body.”

Em: That– I mean, I know she already literally killed her husband, so I can’t really say like, “Oh, now she’s lost it.” But that’s– That– In my mind, if you’re gonna kill your husband, like you said, I assume people are gonna be methodical about it, and this just pro-proves that she’s really just like flying off the– What’s–

Christine: Totally. Like she’s not thinking anything through here at this point.

Em: No, it’s– There’s something even eerier about it being so spontaneous and impulsive–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –and she like doesn’t really know what the next move is. Which I’ve never killed someone, but I know the next move is keep your fucking mouth shut. Like–

Christine: Yeah. Well, clearly she did the exact wrong thing, right. ’Cause–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –he’s like uncomfortable. He’s horrified, frankly. And he decided he’s gonna record their next conversation. ’Cause he was like, “I don’t know what we’re gonna t–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “–be talking about, but I have a feeling I need to record it.” And he recorded it. And in the conversation, she said, “Wow, if you think–“ When he mentioned like, “Oh, if this were the other– Like if– Like picture this way, like you have to understand I was scared, and this is scaring me, whatever.” And she said, “Wow, if you think I could even hurt a fly. Like he’s not a person. He wasn’t a person anymore. He wasn’t Matt.”

Em: “You think I couldn’t even hurt a fly, but I can hurt a human who I’ve now objectified into not actually being anything better than a fly?”

Christine: “He’s no longer a human.” Yeah.

Em: Oy, oy.

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Christine: During the trial, the prosecution also read of some of– read some of Jennifer’s writings. Uh, when, when asked by– I believe it was by her boyfriend like, “If the tables were turned and I came to you with this, wouldn’t you feel the same way? Wouldn’t you be scared or whatever?” And she said, “Not if I deserved it. I always preach that I was like the Queen of Hearts in my past lives because I’m like ‘Off with their heads.’ I’m like, ‘If we could just round up the scum of this earth and put them on an island or just kill them all, I could ship-shape this country back to a good place.”

Em: Ooh…

Christine: And it’s like, “Hey, those are some alarming words you’re using.”

Em: Crazy things you’re saying.

Christine: Some really wild things you’re saying. Like, what are you even implying? It’s unclear.

Em: [sighs] Hm.

Christine: And at this point, by the way, when she’s having these conversations with her boyfriend, she has not even reported Matthew missing. So nobody even knows this guy’s missing yet. Which also like nice job now getting a defense ready when like you’re saying all this and he hasn’t even been reported missing yet.

Em: Yeah. At the very least, they’re gonna be like, “Why didn’t you call somebody?”

Christine: “You clearly know something’s going on.”

Em: And I– Yeah, I just– I especially feel really bad for this, uh, other guy because what do you– what are you to do? You have to assume she’s gonna kill you if you don’t smile through this and high-five her and go, “Congratulations.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “And thank god.”

Christine: “I’m so happy about your decision.”

Em: Oy.

Christine: Yeah. Well, he immediately went to police and was like, “I gotta talk to you about this.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So he did, and he had the recorded–

Em: “You busy?”

Christine: [chuckles] “Hey, are you up? I have something–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–a little bit scary to tell you.” Uh, so he tells police, um, but again, at this point, Matt hadn’t even been reported missing. Um, meanwhile, the Utah National Guard had noticed his absence–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –and had been looking for him. So there was a search warrant, September 28th, um, where– Finally, once he had been reported missing and it was clear that he was not anywhere and hadn’t been seen in several days, over a week at this point, they got a search warrant for September 28. And in the primary bedroom, the detectives found blood stains underneath the bed, um, in the carpet, like soaked through the carpet, um, on the bed frame slats. The whole house reeked of bleach. There were blood stains everywhere. Uh–

Em: This feels like one of those like slam dunk open-and-shut cases–

Christine: Yeah, it kind of is.

Em: –where it’s just like, “Well, we don’t got to look very far, do we?”

Christine: Yeah, it kind of is. And the new mattress she got that I had mentioned briefly earlier. So it turns out that her parents had helped her purchase the mattress. And because she didn’t want a mattress appearing on her front doorstep, you know, that’s too obvious–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –she had it delivered to her parents’ house, and then, uh, they brought it. Three days after the murder, there was a brand new mattress, um, in her bedroom.

Em: And only then did she call the– Well, I guess she didn’t have to call the police ’cause the– his job already sent people out.

Christine: They did report– He– She did end up, I believe, reporting him missing, um, after that, yes. But it was, I think, I think, after that or right around then. Um–

Em: But did that even matter? Because if like people have already gone in and now seen blood everywhere and smelled bleach–

Christine: I mean, exactly. Well, the mattress came before. So they walked in. They see all this evidence of a cleanup, and then they see a brand new mattress, and they’re like, “Mm.”

Em: They can piece it together.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I see. Okay.

Christine: Like it’s pretty obvious. Turns out the mom, Rosalie, had actually ordered the mattress and brought it over. Um, so the GPS data that they showed in trial also showed Jennifer’s movements on the day of the murder, and it’s pretty fucking slam dunk. Okay. They show her dumping the car. They show her driving north to bury his body. Unfortunately, they have never found his body, and there is no clue as to where it is. She still claims not guilty, so we just don’t know. We just don’t know where he is.

Em: That blows my mind that, um, someone who is so, um– I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m, I’m saying it wrong. Like af–

Christine: Like brazen?

Em: Yeah. Brazen. It’s wild that they can get away with it, but someone who methodically plans this out–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –still sometimes gets caught. And I’m like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –I feel like of all the people I expect to get caught–

Christine: I know.

Em: –certainly, you’re first.

Christine: I wonder if– I mean, and she was caught. It’s just they haven’t found his body, you know, which is frustrating.

Em: Sure.

Christine: And also like, “How?”, you know? Um, and also it’s like un– it’s not– it’s uncommon for somebody to be in this position and not have a body, right? But like it was so obvious with the other signs of the–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –the blood and the cleanup and her confession that, that this had been something more. Um, so they have this, uh, GPS data that shows her driving up on the day of the murder. On October 2, 2024, Jennifer was arrested on charges of first-degree murder and obstruction of justice. 22 days later, October 24, Jennifer’s parents were both arrested and charged with four counts of obstruction of justice.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Turns out that the day that they had stopped by her house, for they said less than an hour, they had actually been there for about five hours, and–

Em: Ooh.

Christine: –they brought a bunch of cleaning supplies and a brand new mattress over.

Em: Wow. So they knew exactly what was going on. Okay.

Christine: They knew what was going on. So despite claiming they’d only been there for an hour, uh, they had brought this new mattress, and then when they looked at Rosalie, the mom’s phone, um, she had had it remotely wiped.

Em: Oh?

Christine: And it’s like, “Whose mom does that?” You know, like that’s like not a thing–

Em: No.

Christine: –that you would just do for fun. Like– [chuckles]

Em: My mom wouldn’t even know how to do that.

Christine: I don’t think anyone really knows, right? Like I was like, what– Not that anyone really knows, but like I don’t think that’s something the average just like boomer-age mom would know, you know?

Em: No.

Christine: Um, so in addition to the cleared phone, uh, they asked her dad about his involvement and his presence at the house that day, and he said, quote, “I didn’t go in where the incident happened.” And they’re like, “Oh, the incident? What incident?”

Em: Hm.

Christine: And he’s like, “I don’t know.”

Em: “So you’re implying there’s an incident.”

Christine: “I misspoke.” Yeah. “So you’re saying there’s an incident,” right. Like, hello?

Em: [chuckles] “Speak on that,” as you’d say.

Christine: “Speak on that, please.” Yes. Police found the gun box with a Glock in it, wrapped in a child’s onesie, and put in a plastic tote near Jennifer’s bedroom. Matthew’s body has never been found.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Uh, Jennifer pleaded not guilty. She faces one count of first-degree murder, five of obstruction of justice, one possession of controlled substance, one count of abuse or desecration of a human body, one count of tampering with a witness. Um, now, [chuckles] she made another mistake when talking to her boyfriend because she told him she would “shoot herself” before going to jail.

Em: Oh.

Christine: And because of that, they were like, “Well, you’re not getting bail then ’cause you’re a risk.”

Em: Right.

Christine: “Like we’re not letting you out then.” And so [chuckles] she was denied bail. Uh, and the trial began, um, a couple weeks ago. Uh, two months ago, she appeared in court, and I watched that. It was very short. Nothing much happened. But as we go forward, I will keep an eye on it and see if they’re ever able to kind of put the pieces together. Um–

Em: Yeah, really.

Christine: I don’t know if they’re gonna end up, uh, putting the boyfriend on the stand. I assume. Um, yeah, it’s really sad. There are three kids, now lost both parents.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um, it’s just, it’s just crazy. It’s just crazy. And the, uh– By the way, the, the husband Matthew had a $500,000 life insurance policy, and she was the beneficiary, but because they can’t find her body, it’s like, “What do they– What do we– What do they do?” You know?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It's like– Yeah, it’s all very up in the air. TBD.

Em: And what was the most recent update about this? You just said, uh, there was a hearing or something?

Christine: Uh, two months ago, she went to court for the first time as part of her upcoming trial– or her current trial. And, uh–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: –yeah, it was very short, but, um, there will be more updates on that soon.

Em: Okay. Man. Well, that’s, that’s a rough one. [chuckles] I don’t know.

Christine: It’s always something, man. It’s always something.

Em: I, uh– And his name is Matthew. What was her name again?

Christine: Jennifer.

Em: Jennifer. Yeah.

Christine: So–

Em: Good for that, uh, that lover–

Christine: I know. I know.

Em: –to say uh, “Time to call the cops.” I–

Christine: Yeah. See something, say something. For real.

Em: 100%. I thought he was gonna like, even just under duress, be like, “Okay, well, let’s run away together.” But good for him. He got out of there.

Christine: I guess not. I guess she misjudged that, you know. Like she said she obviously regretted telling him.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Which like, duh.

Em: Yeah, anyone would. [chuckles]

Christine: I’m just surprised you did.

Em: I, uh– Yeah. I also– I wonder how long she’s gonna be put away for.

Christine: I know. I have no clue.

Em: ’Cause if I were–

Christine: Especially without a body.

Em: Well, if I were him, I’d be scared that like she’s gonna come after me next. Like, how many years do I get to feel safe, you know?

Christine: Mm.

Em: That, that would always be my fear that like if someone told me a crime and then I like was the reason they went to jail, I’d be like, “Oh, I’m their first plan when they get out,” you know.

Christine: Totally.

Em: Um–

Christine: “I’m the loose end.”

Em: “I’m the loose end,” yeah. Well, great. Oh, and it’s Friday, Christine! So happy Friday.

Christine: Thank you. Happy Friday. I hope you have a fun weekend.

Em: I also ha-ho– hope I have a fun weekend. Oh, wait. Mm. Tomorrow I’m, uh, in a first aid CPR class all day, and it’s–

Christine: What?

Em: –gonna– It’s literally like six hours long.

Christine: Why are you doing that?

Em: I feel like I should know.

Christine: Just for fun?

Em: Just for fun. But it’s six hours long.

Christine: Damn.

Em: I know. I signed up thinking–

Christine: Like for people?

Em: –like, “This will be a cute little like do this in the morning and then get lunch.”

Christine: Like animal or people first aid?

Em: Um, it’s people, but I am looking for an animal one.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, but I’d like to know how to Heimlich because–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –of course, it’ll happen in front of me. Someone’s choking, and I’ll be like–

Christine: For sure.

Em: –“I don’t know, man. Enjoy hell.” What?

Christine: You gotta and– You gotta know.

Em: I gotta know. So, um– And honestly, I’m grateful that it’s gonna be six hours long, ’cause that means maybe I’ll actually learn something. But, um, didn’t know that when I signed up, and it starts at 9 which means I need to be there at 8. [laughs]

Christine: Whoa.

Em: Or I need to wake up at 8. So not so much of a weekend for me, but whatever.

Christine: Well, enjoy, and I hope, uh, you never have to put those skills to use, but I’m glad you have them.

Em: Me too. All right, have fun, everybody, and don’t choke because–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –I don’t know how to save you yet, so.

Christine: Not yet.

Em: And–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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