E477 Rat Directions and Pantsless Ghost Hunts

TOPICS: THE MONKEY’S PAW, DEBBY AND MARK CONSTANTINO

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It’s Episode 477 and we’ve been doing some ADHD Spring cleaning! Today Em brings us a little palette cleanser story with the lore of The Monkey’s Paw, the classic tale from our childhood that we never read. Then Christine covers the deaths of Debby and Mark Constantino, friends of Zak Bagans who we just can’t seem to escape recently. We’ll catch you next time for our totally real and not green screened interview from the Jersey Shore House… and that’s why we drink!

If you or someone you know is dealing with domestic abuse, confidential help is available 24/7. You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233), or text the word "START" to 88788. In an active emergency, always dial 911.

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Transcript

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[intro music]

Em: Welcome to the day after the Hannah Montana anni-anniversary.

Christine: [laughs] Oh! Okay. At– When this comes out?

Em: Oh, no. As we’re recording.

Christine: Oh, okay. Because I was like, “I thought that you just experienced this.” Okay, okay. Hey, how are you feel-feeling?

Em: [laughs] I am–

Christine: I didn’t even say “peeling,” and you know I wanted to.

Em: I heard it. Don’t worry. I really– I– It was screamed into my psyche. Um, say it anyway.

Christine: How are you peeling?

Em: [groans] Bananas. It feels bananas over here.

Christine: Oh! Got ‘em.

Em: I, um– It was really wonderful. For those who celebrated–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –um, yesterday was the 20th anniversary of the Hannah Montana premiere.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um, Miley Cyrus manifested this. It was not even supposed to really happen. She just started saying it on carpets. She was like, “Oh, yeah. There’s a big anniversary thing happening,” and then her lawyers were like, “What are you talking about?” And she was like–

Christine: Be the– This is what Gandhi’s talking about.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: You know what I’m trying to say?

Em: “Be the change you wanna see.”

Christine: Fucking be the change, you know. It’s like, “Get it, girl. Yes.”

Em: Love that. Um, so I was very excited about that. Allison threw me a nice little shindig. Loved that. Um–

Christine: Oh, I saw that. Wow. You had a whole out– By the way, that little patio is looking fine.

Em: Oh, thank you. It’s still very– [sighs] Here’s the thing. I–

Christine: Oh my god. I was like, this looks just like–

Em: I appreciate what you’re saying.

Christine: –prime movie night.

Em: I appreciate the words, but I don’t agree with you because I– There was a time, my– When Allison was gone and I was trying to surprise her, I had these big plans, big, big plans.

Christine: Oh.

Em: Where I was like, “Oh, I’m gonna buy all these like plants and make it very lush.” I wanted it to look like an escape, and I wanted you not be able–

Christine: A jungle.

Em: –to see– ’Cause it’s basically just concrete walls back there, and I was like, “I wanna hide all that. I wanna feel like you’re in like a fairy garden.”

Christine: Sure.

Em: Bought her all these plants. She ended up extending her stay, as we all knew. And, um, I didn’t know how to take care of the plants, and they all died. All died.

Christine: Oh, good. Oh, good.

Em: S–

Christine: I’m sure Hank liked to be involved also.

Em: He was shockingly okay about the plants–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –but I, I was worried about that also. Um, but anyway, I had a vision for how it was supposed to look, and to me it just looks so white and barren, and I just– I like just wanted– I don’t even know if “barren” is the right word. Bare? Bare. But it was– I just got so overwhelmed when Allison came home, and I was like, “It doesn’t look like anything I wanted.”

Christine: Aw.

Em: Like I wanted there– like lights everywhere and– Anyway.

Christine: Oh, you’ll get there. You’ll get there. I–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Listen, I know that frustration and that disappointment so well. Like if you had told me that six years after moving in this house– like if, if I were to see what it looks like right now in this office, like I would be devastated ’cause I had such like dr-dramatic plans, right? But it’s like it’s been so many different things, and then I changed my mind and my style, and then like, oh, I had a baby, so like I made a nurse– You know, things– I feel like projects just kind of become more nebulous, and like as you grow into your house, it’ll become–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –much more–

Em: I think you’re– Well, that’s– ’Cause it’s funny you mentioned that I’m on the flip side where you’re like,”Oh, this room doesn’t look like anything I wanted it to,” and I’ve always thought that’s like the coolest looking room. So, um–

Christine: Well, I guess look around, and you’ll see as you’ve pro– you can probably imagine well just how absolutely– Behind anything you can see is just fucking hurricane tornado disaster.

Em: You’ve always said that, and I’ve never been o– as overwhelmed as you make it seem.

[Christine stands up.]

Em: Oh, fashion show at lunch. [chuckles]

Christine: And this is, this is after a lot, a lot, a lot– months, years of, uh–

[Christine turns the camera around to show the other side of her room. There is a window seat with some boxes and baskets on it. The floor has some boxes on it as well.]

Em: This is a brave moment.

Christine: Yeah, I know.

Em: That’s not as bad as you think it is.

Christine: It’s, it’s not as bad, but that, that’s the after. That’s the clean version.

[Christine turns the camera back around. As she leans in front of the camera, a silver pendant necklace dangles from her neck.]

Em: What is– Are you wearing like the Hope Diamond or something from Titanic? What is this? [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] You’re like the third person to ask me about it. It’s just my little scarab from Egypt.

Em: I love it. I’ve never seen it on you before.

Christine: Oh, thank you. My therapist also said something, and she’s like, “Is that a little beetle?” I don’t know. It’s getting a lot of– It’s, it’s giving off some energy today, I think.

Em: It’s got a lot of play, a lot of play.

Christine: Yeah, I love her. She’s– I got her at a jewelry store in Egypt. They told me it was some– something special, and I probably got totally suckered, but I love it.

Em: Well, no, it’s very beautiful. And you’re– I, I know, I know that you a– constantly have an overwhelm about how your house may or may not be clean, but I’ve– as someone who’s been in your home, I’ve never been as overwhelmed as I think you fear.

Christine: That really, that really does, that really does, uh, soothe me. Thank you. I do appreciate that ’cause I really– Sometimes I’m like, are people just like, “What the fuck is wrong with her?”

Em: No, I’ve never thought that. I–

Christine: I’m pretty good at hiding some stuff. So I think like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –typically when people come over, I’m just like, you know, the mess goes in there.

Em: It just gets shifted from room to room. Yeah.

Christine: Totally. Totally. But now that I’m getting myself healed up a little bit, I’m like, “Oh. I don’t need to hold on to this like straw wrapper–“

Em: Mm.

Christine: “–because like my ex-boyfriend gave it to me.” You know what I mean?

Em: I’m not there yet, but I am proud of you.

Christine: Yeah, thank you.

Em: Because I still have thing– Like I mean, Allison got me a Hannah Montana wig, and now I’m gonna have to hold on to it until like the 50th anniversary.

Christine: Okay. Well, that’s special.

Em: You know what I mean?

Christine: I’m talking, I’m talking 2006 like trash from like Dunkin’ Donuts that like there’s no– like wha– No, nobody wants this. Nobody even knows what it is. It’s just trash. What is happening? Like it’s just–

Em: You know, I– Again, I have also– I have been there where I’ve also collected and held on to trash because in my mind it was like, “This was the burger wrapper of this–“

Christine: Like it has meaning, yeah.

Em: But luckily, I tucked it away in a memory box for so long that when I saw it again, I was like, “I don’t even remember what this is for,” and then threw it away.

Christine: Exactly. That’s what I mean. It’s like, “What is this fucking trash?” Like I barely even know what this is. And I was like, “It’s so important.” And I’m like it’s just like weighing me down. You know what I mean, brother?

Em: Mm. I, I– [chuckles] I do.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I, uh, recently tried to go through my memory box, and I always think, “Oh, I’m gonna go– have this massive declutter and–“

Christine: Like purge it. Yeah.

Em: And then I always end up only getting rid of like two things–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –and I’m like [groans].

Christine: Yeah, when it’s in a memory box, I’m kinda like– it’s tough to get it out of there, I think, for me.

Em: Allison is someone who does not hold on to anything, and so the fact that I have like a massive–

Christine: It’s, it’s really beautiful how–

Em: –tub.

Christine: –how she’s able to be like minimalist in that way–

Em: It’s shock–

Christine: Couldn’t, couldn’t be me.

Em: It– I– It makes me kind of worry about her. I’m like, “There’s nothing you wanna hold on to?” I’m like, “What about when I go? Are you gonna– You’re not gonna hold on to a single thing?”

Christine: Yeah, well, think about it’s the Buddhist way, right? It’s like, “Oh, everything is fleeting. Don’t cling,” you know.

Em: I guess so.

Christine: It's like, [touches her hand to her chest] “The memory’s here.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’m a hoarder. I’m saying this as a hoarder, Em.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I’m just– I’m talking out of my ass. Okay? Do as I say, not as I do.

Em: Well, no. I’m more on your side ’cause I’m like, I just wanna hold on to– if, if something happened to her, like not– Nothing would go. Nothing would go.

Christine: No, no, no.

Em: And I feel like she’d just like shovel my stuff out.

Christine: Same.

Em: She’d go, “Finally, I can get rid of all those Pokémon cards,” you know? [chuckles]

Christine: She’d– No, she’d be like, “What are these?” and then just like throw them–

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Totally. Yeah, yeah, totally. I did tell her– I was like, “We have to have a serious conversation about my Pokémon cards. You cannot get rid of those. Like, you have to get those appraised or something.”

Christine: Yeah. I mean, maybe you make it contractually legal. You put it in a will or something.

Em: I gave her a list of people that cannot– she cannot give it to. I was like, “If you don’t want them–“

Christine: Oh! [laughs]

Em: “–that’s fine–“

Christine: That’ll work too. That’ll work too.

Em: “–but do not donate them to these people because they’re going to use them for evil,” you know.

Christine: Oh, right. We don’t want that.

Em: Mm-mmm. Mm-mmm. What is your, um– I don’t know if this is helpful or not. Maybe I’m talking you into the– into the wrong things, but in your finding your, you know, collections of things, has there been anything that you are really happy you found? Like instead of like trash–

Christine: Mm…

Em: –is there something you found where you’re like, “Oh, I’m so happy that I’ve kept that. I really like that thing”?

Christine: Oh, so many things. I found so many things. Actually, I know it doesn’t look it, but pretty much everything on that bench is stuff that I’m like keeping, but I need to now put back. Like I put everything out of there that was donation or trash and already got it out.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So that’s just like what’s left. Um, so there, there are some like special things–

Em: That's all that’s left?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Sorry, that just processed.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Oh, you should be really proud of yourself.

Christine: Thank you. I am, I am proud, but I– But sometimes I’m like it took six years to like get to a point where I’m finally like seeing some cla-clarity. Like we cl– I cl– I had some– I don’t know if it’s the Adderall or what, but the other day I just had this like– I went upstairs after– Or like, Leona went to bed, and I walked into my room, and I looked at our closet. And I cannot look at our closet. It gives me such anxiety. At first, I thought like it must be a ghost. And then I’m like, “Oh no, it’s just like this like black hole.” I mean, I don’t know if you’ve seen it. It’s like in my bathroom, and it’s just like– You can’t even get in there. And then I realized– I had this like moment where I realiz– I turned the light on. I’m like, “Are there towel– extra towels in here?” I’m looking around like– Some of the stuff we just pushed in here when we moved in and have just not touched.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like there’s a big tub of Blaise’s scrubs, and it was COVID, so like they just got put right there. They are still there, and I’m like, “Oh my god, this stuff is like right where we go every day, you know?” And so I had this moment–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and I realized then that all of Blaise’s [chuckles] T-shirts that he wears every day are in the back of that closet. And I’m like, “Hey, babe. Do you climb in here and go back there in this like little cave every day?”

Em: He’s a good man.

Christine: And he’s like, “Well, yeah, that’s where my–” And I’m like, “What’s the matter with you? Like, my weird fake pink fur stole, you have to like push past it every day.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And I was like, “If I were you, I would hate me. I would like divorce me immediately. This is like untenable,” and he’s like, “Oh, it’s fine.” Anyway, within an hour, he came upstairs, and I was like, “Go look in the closet.”

Em: Totally redone or what?

Christine: I– He’s like, “What happened?” I just like completely– I cleared it out. I had trash bags. I had donation. I had like stuff for Leona. I had things– suitcases we forgot we had. I had everything in a place, and I had his shirts right there ’cause I was like–

Em: Good for you. That’s nice.

Christine: Anyway, then I, um, stayed up ’til 2 and played Yahtzee on my phone, but like you know–

Em: And it was deserved.

Christine: –it’s all about balance. Thank you.

Em: It was deserved.

Christine: Thank you.

Em: No, I’m very proud of you. That’s, uh– It’s nice to acknowledge–

Christine: It’s very fulfilling. Yeah.

Em: –and even though he didn’t even need it, but that’s the beauty of being married to a Blaise. It’s like he just doesn’t give a shit. Like it’s–

Christine: And he was like, “Wow, that was– That’s great. I–“ Like he’s now very happy. And I’m like he would have just not minded, but I’m like, no, I wanna, I wanna be better than just like, you know, “Oh, I don’t mind it,” you know. And it’s like what–

Em: Well, it’s very nice.

Christine: I mean, to have to push past my pink stole? I couldn’t take it.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I couldn’t take it anymore.

Em: That’s funny because I’m sure I’ve got something similar to a faux pink stole in–

Christine: It’s probably a faux green stole.

Em: And I probably just tell Allison, “Push past that. Get your own clothes,” you know. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. “Actually, don’t touch that, please.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Actually, can you like really carefully edge around it so as not to get your finger grease on it?” [laughs]

Em: I, I just like, “Please.” I mean, remember–

Christine: Please.

Em: –lest we forget in Canada when I got that, um– I went to that store just for drag queens, and I got that big Lisa Frank–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –pink and yellow leopard jacket.

Christine: Oh, and you had the– Oh, and then you had the audacity (compliment, not derogatory) to meet Eva and me at the skytop– rooftop bar wearing it.

Em: Yeah, it was–

Christine: You walked in, and we– and every head turned.

Em: That’s exactly right. That’s what I wanted.

Christine: Remarkable.

Em: It was a bit of a formal restaurant. I didn’t know that when I walked in. [laughs]

Christine: And we were like, “Yeah, that’s our friend.” [laughs]

Em: I didn’t know when I walked in that it was gonna be, um, such a showstopper for everybody–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –but whatever. Um, no. But I have jackets like that, and it doesn’t even occur to me that Allison should ever– that I should move it for Allison. I– Oh god. Sorry, Allison.

Christine: You know, I have the– Speaking of audacity, I was like, “Why are Blaise’s scrubs still here?” And then I’m like climbing over like 16 pairs of shoes–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –I had in college that I literally have not worn a single time since, you know, and it’s like– I’m like, “Why are his scrubs still here?” [laughs]

Em: Well–

Christine: Like what’s wrong with me?

Em: –I’m gonna give you some grace ’cause I– Also I think– I can’t imagine being in a house where you can shove things into a closet and ignore it. Like I mean, that just–

Christine: That’s–

Em: It's very out of sight, out of mind.

Christine: –part of the problem. That’s part of the problem. Yeah.

Em: As– I mean, I have complained about how I wish I had lived in a bigger space many times, but one of the added perks of it is that like there is no room for clutter. Like so if–

Christine: Totally. Totally.

Em: –there’s no tucking something away in a corner. So I really had to like force myself–

Christine: That’s the danger.

Em: –to face that.

Christine: It’s like, “Why not keep it?”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “We might need it.” It’s almo– an almost empty helium tank that probably won’t work by next year. Like–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –but I’ll carry it upstairs to the office, and then like three years later, I’m like, “Fuck, I forgot I had this up here. Like, what do I do with it?” You know, it’s like it just doesn’t work like that.

Em: I would do the exact same thing. If I had the space, there’s not a chance in hell I would have donated half the stuff I have.

Christine: Exactly. Yeah. That’s a really– Okay, that also comforts me too because there’s a running joke in my family which is I, I just yell, “I need a bigger house,” ’cause like we can’t find rooms for something– [chuckles] room for something. And I was like, “I need a bigger house,” and then I realized my mom used to say that and like she also has very similar tendencies of just like not being able to let go of stuff. And I heard myself going, “I need a bigger house,” and I went, “Alright–“

Em: That’s funny because–

Christine: “–the mom signs are shining through.”

Em: –I yell it every day, and I mean it. [laughs] I’m like, I–

Christine: And you mean it? [laughs]

Em: I, I, I actively wish something was cluttered.

Christine: Right, right, right.

Em: I hate how, I hate how– I don’t know. It feels like a weird side like pat on the back. Like, “my house is so clean,” but I can’t stand it.

Christine: Mm.

Em: I like– I need to live in a place where I feel like I can leave shit around without the whole place feeling disgusting.

Christine: So is that something that you’re able to like do? Or are you just gonna–

Em: No.

Christine: –leave it like this then?

Em: No. Well, I mean, like t– like an addition on the house or something?

Christine: Mm. I just mean like is that something you can work on wi– in the– at the house? Or is that like you’re just gonna like kind of say, “Well, that’s, that’s my life now”?

Em: No, for now, it’s a “that’s my life now.” I mean, the dream is that we– I could like add on and have like e-essentially a troll hole–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –where I can be dirty and disgusting.

Christine: Right.

Em: Um, but we just don’t have that right now.

Christine: Is it just that Allison, Allison’s not and you just don’t want it in the main living area?

Em: Yeah. So there’s, there’s really the, the bedroom and then this room.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And so if the living room is a mess, then sitting in our kitchen, I can see the mess. Like it’s just–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –it’s just always there. There’s like nowhere to–

Christine: Where did you have it before? Was it like–

Em: The troll hole.

Christine: –hidden away? The troll hole. Right, of course.

Em: Um, because Allison and I shook on the fact that like as long as that door was closed, she did not care what it looked like–

Christine: That’s your–

Em: –back there.

Christine: Totally.

Em: And I, I really miss that. Um–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So anyway, I, I– in a, in a weird way, and I’m sure this is not helpful to your therapist, [chuckles] but I envy you that you can–

Christine: No, it’s super helpful ’cause it’s like, oh, it’s a different perspective, right? Like I hadn’t thought of it that way. And it’s like, oh, yeah, that does encourage the habit of keeping stuff I do not need or helping other people store stuff, which like I don’t necessarily have a lot of that, but like just anything, it’s like, “Oh, sure, I have plenty of space.” Yeah. So no–

Em: That being–

Christine: –it’s a good perspective.

Em: –that being said though– Sorry, I think there’s a lag, so I feel like I keep sounding like I’m s-stepping over you.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: Um, but to that, I feel like a little, a little cheers clinky to you [mimes clinking a glass with the camera] for like finally only having that stuff in your room that, that’s like important stuff to you.

Christine: Thank you.

Em: That’s huge.

Christine: Thank you. It’s really distracting ’cause it’s like journals and stickers. So I just keep being like, “Oh, I’ll work on this pile,” and then I’m like looking through sticker books for like an hour. So it– The ADHD part– I’ve gotten this far, and I’m like letting myself kind of just–

Em: Yeah, I know.

Christine: –have the moment, you know, but, uh–

Em: That’s– And the, the most annoying part when you are decluttering is once you get to like the nitty-gritty stuff, it doesn’t look like anything is being accomplished.

Christine: To– Yeah, it doesn’t feel like it’s moving as much.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Yeah. Totally. Totally true. Well, thank you ’cause I know you always appreciate that kind of a-aspect of, of having, having a home. It’s, uh, it’s a loaded one. Um–

Em: I’m very jealous of you and all your space, but I can also see that being such a– an accidental–

Christine: It’s also haunted space. So even when you’re here sometimes, I think you’re a little more hesitant about my space than even I am.

Em: Only the parts where I’ve had ghost experiences.

Christine: Yeah, which is most of this space, I would say. Oh, I told you, right? I already told the story about Leona in her room and looking out the–

Em: Is there an update?

Christine: Uh, I don’t think so.

Em: Okay.

Christine: No, the last thing– That was the last thing that happened and then– Was that last week? Yeah.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Nothing really– Oh, she’s really scared of wolves.

Em: You did say that.

Christine: Oh my god. And then I tried to do something last night. I’ve really fucked up, dude. Like I don’t–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I mean, I, I don’t– I really don’t think like this is like a big, big deal because I– I’m e– [chuckles] I feel like I’m equipped to handle this with her. And I think maybe if this had happened to me, maybe it’d be more of a problem because I didn’t necessarily have the tools to– or the people around me didn’t have the tools to handle it, but last night, I really effed up. I read her this book that I bought that I thought was like perfect because it’s about this little kid who’s like, “There’s a bear out there, and I know it,” and like–

Em: Mm.

Christine: It’s kind of funny ’cause it’s like, “You can believe me,” and it’s like all this like fake stuff, and it turns out it’s like all pretend or whatever. But it turns out at the end, there is a bear.

Em: [sucks in a breath]

Christine: Um, it’s just a friendly bear, and they are in the bear’s house, it turns out. And so then–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: –Leona literally said to me, “Don’t you ever make me look at that again,” and I said, “Okay.” [laughs]

Em: I would be frozen in my– I’d be like, “What happened? What just– What did I just do?”

Christine: I, I was like– She literally– I tried to put it in the shelf. She said, “Don’t put it in my shelf.” And I said, “Okay.” So–

Em: She’s like, “Burn it.” [laughs]

Christine: Literally burn it. So I tried to tuck it into like the armchair to like stand up, and she goes, “Don’t leave it in my chair.” And I said, “Okay, I’m gonna go put it outside in the hallway.” And she’s like, “But there could be wolves out there,” and I was like, “I’ve really effed up this time. Like, I’ve really effed up.”

Em: For, for a second, I thought you were gonna say, “I really effed up because I taught her about werewolves,” where it’s like pe–

Christine: Oh!

Em: –anyone, any person could be a wolf.

Christine: Well, she’s had books on werewolves since she was six months old because like people, you know–

Em: Cryptids.

Christine: She’s an And That’s Why We Drink baby, so she got all sorts of spooky books, but somehow that’s not what scares her. Ghosts? Not really what scares her. It’s wolves.

Em: Well, so is this book that you gave her that you thought was an excellent–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Which I, I could see, I could see what you were thinking.

Christine: By the way, during this exchange, because she is like pissed off, Blaise texts me, “I thought it was cute and a great– like a great idea.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And I was like, “Well. Well, thanks.”

Em: Was her reason for being so upset that like the moral of– she took the moral of being like, “Can confirm when a kid senses that there’s an animal in the woods or an animal nearby or a monster nearby–“

Christine: I think–

Em: “–that they’re right, and therefore, I’m right when I think all these wolves are around.”

Christine: I think so. And I think also like in the book, it’s like really beautifully illust– By the way, if you have a kid who would like this, it is–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –gorgeous. [chuckles] Oh, I was not gonna say I’ll mail it to you, but I will. Um, because by the way I said, “Oh, how about we mail it to your cousin, Elliot,” ’cause he’s like three, but I’m like, he– I think he could handle it. And she goes, “No! You can’t do that to him.”

Em: [sighs]

Christine: And I was like, “Wow, okay. We’re feeling a lot of feelings about this book.” It’s so cute and it’s like beautifully done, but the art– It has this kid like, “Aghh!”, like screaming, and I think she just got very like activated right away–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and then like kind of stopped listening about like the, the jokey parts.

Em: I see.

Christine: Like when it was like, “Oh, a sign of, um– Like a sign of a bear is it– super itchy feet.” And I’m like, “Isn’t that silly?” And she was just like already like–

Em: She’s like, “I don’t have fucking time.”

Christine: –“Where the fuck is this bear?” Yeah, “I don’t have fucking time.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Where is this bear?” And then of course, the eyeballs appear in the darkness, and I’m like, “Okay, maybe I should have looked at the page.” I mean, honestly, it’s not scary. Okay? She just has a very, very specific niche fear right now that I think I accidentally tried too hard to address, you know–

Em: I understand.

Christine: –head-on.

Em: And I don’t even think you meant– I, I thought it would have– It’s funny how a kid’s brain and an adult’s brain just totally don’t–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –cl-click sometimes ’cause I would have been like, “Oh, I’m–“

Christine: I even told the shopperson. I was like, “Yeah, this is why I’m buying it.”

Em: Yeah. I’d be like you were slowly teach– like, “Oh, it’s just– They can be silly.” Yeah.

Christine: And it’s a bear, not a wolf. Like I thought like, “Oh, we can kind of do like–“ And I–

Em: I would have actually thought because she’s not scared of bears, this wouldn’t even do anything.

Christine: Exactly. Hey, guess what? Now she’s scared of wolves and bears.

Em: She’s becoming fucking Dorothy or whatever.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Like lions and tigers and bears and all this. Um–

Christine: I, I just am like, “Well, okay. I’ve flubbed that.” But, uh, anyway, I, I’ve been told to, uh, get rid of the book but never give it to a child because it’s only for adults. Um–

Em: Okay.

Christine: So–

Em: I’ll take it, so–

Christine: Yeah. I mean, I– It’s adorable.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I love it. So, you know, I’m gonna keep it, and don’t tell Leona, but I’ll keep– [chuckles] She’s gonna find it somewhere random like by accident–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and fucking have a meltdown.

Em: She– She’ll like– If you leave it in the attic one day, she’ll like– It’ll all come back to her.

Christine: Oh my god. I’m gonna put it in like her like creepy antique trunk that I bought her off an estate sale.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Anyway, that is why I drink. I’m so sorry. I’m just drinking my water today. What are you drinking?

Em: I’m drinking unflavored, though requested highly flavored, iced tea. I had s– I sent out for it. I said, “Give me extra pumps of lavender.” They said, “How about fucking zero?”

Christine: I had, I had the audacity to say, “Maybe next time you should put ‘extra syrup.’” And Em holds the cup up, and it says like, “requested extra pump of syrup,” and I’m like, “Well, consider me fooled then.”

Em: Extra–

Christine: “Consider me a fool.”

[Em holds their iced tea cup up to the camera, focusing on the label that lists the order showing “1 extra pump” at the end of the order.]

Em: Extra pump.

Christine: Like yeah. Bummer.

Em: And I’m like, “Well, it’s–“ I–

Christine: Did you–

Em: It’s almost like you saw the plus sign and chose a negative sign and said, “How about–“

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “–not at all?”

Christine: Another stupid question: did you like mix it up? Could it be like in the bottom?

Em: That’s what I thought too. But I don’t– Usually, you would see like purple on the bottom–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and I don’t see any purple. Um, so I don’t know.

Christine: It's unfortunate.

Em: I don’t know. [sighs] Not meant to be today, I guess. Um–

Christine: Well.

Em: –that’s okay.

Christine: We both have boring drinks. But yeah, as Em likes to say, have some water. Drink up you– [chuckles] Em doesn’t say “have some water.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That’s my, that’s my take on it. [laughs]

Em: That’s the nicer way. No, I say, “you thirsty little effing rats, have you– Drink some water.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get real nasty with it.

Em: Yeah. Uh, thirsty little rats, TLR.

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Em’s Story – The Monkey's Paw

Em: Okay. Well, I have a story for you. Um–

Christine: TLDR – thirsty little drinking rats.

Em: Thirsty little drinking rats. Uh, I have a story. Although this is a shorter story because I harped and harped for–

Christine: Allegedly. We’ll see when the timer runs out.

Em: Mm-hmm. I, uh– The last three episodes were all about Zak Bagans. I was like, let’s just do a palette cleanser. Let’s just get off that.

Christine: Let's just cut him out of the picture.

Em: Um, and a while ago, when I did the, the girl with the green ribbon around her neck–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –I got a lot of people asking me to cover more scary stories from our childhood.

Christine: Ooh!

Em: So– And I would like your memory of this, if you have one, because–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –I’m, I’m curious what your experience with this story is. But this is “The Monkey’s Paw.”

Christine: Okay. That’s one that I feel like every now and then I hear about, and then I’m like– I vaguely sort of– Like if I look directly at it, I don’t know what it is–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –but [chuckles] I feel like peripherally, I sort of do. But I think someone like Blaise’s family talks about it, but I don’t really know it.

Em: I feel like it became like– It’s almost like slang because the moral of the story, of course, is “be careful what you wish for.” And I feel like people have now used–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –the phrase “monkey’s paw” instead of saying–

Christine: As like an idiom? Right. Okay.

Em: They’re like, “Oh, well, don’t let it be– Don’t, don’t let it be a monkey’s paw or like–“

Christine: Ohh.

Em: “–something you wish for–”

Christine: Okay, so I don’t remember– I think this is one that kind of escaped me.

Em: Okay, so I remember being in class– in English class and having to read this, but I can tell you with full confidence, I don’t think I read a single fucking book I was ever expected to in English class. I was like–

Christine: [chuckles] Even in the class, you were just like staring.

Em: Like I was actively caught many times looking up like the CliffsNotes online as we were in class. Like I–

Christine: Wait, wait, wait. Oh, what age were you reading this?

Em: I think it was like ninth grade.

Christine: Oh, I was picturing like elementary school, and I’m like, “How were you googling CliffsNotes?” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Okay. I thought this was like the girl with the ribbon where it was like a kid’s story.

Em: Sure. And I– For all I know, I have come up with a timeline where it’s– I was actually much younger.

Christine: Oh, I see. So you– [laughs] Okay.

Em: So here’s the thing.

Christine: Okay.

Em: I– Just to make matters worse. So I had a Mr. Feeny for, uh, my English classes where from sixth grade–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –until I graduated, I had the same teacher. So I really–

Christine: Right, so you can’t escape that. Yeah, yeah.

Em: I don’t really know what age I was.

Christine: Time just ceases to exist in that context.

Em: Yeah. She was just– From 11 to like going to college, she was my English teacher, and most of it was in the exact same classroom. So–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –I’m guessing I was like 14. But–

Christine: And once you establish that– you cement that habit, you know, in that room, in that environment, you’re kind of sunk.

Em: I think that’s why she caught me so many times looking up the CliffsNotes by the time I was graduating because she’d seen me for the last seven years like not giving a shit. [laughs]

Christine: It’s just like you start to see the pattern. Yeah.

Em: Anyway, I think she was probably the most surprised when we wrote, not just one, but two, fucking books.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Um, anyway, so sorry to her. Um, and also I, I don’t really remember– I don’t remember reading it. I remember like bits of it, but I– but kind of as bullet points, not as the story itself.

Christine: Maybe you were like– remember it from the discussion, like the class discussion or something.

Em: Yeah. And there were a few times where I– we would– I would hear the discussion after we’ve allegedly read the book, and I’d go, “Oh, shit. That sounds like a good book.” [laughs]

Christine: I– Every time. Every time that would happen, and I would go, “Well, fuck. Now I wanna read it.” And then they’d go, “Now here’s the next one,” and I’d go, “That looks boring as hell.”

Em: Exactly.

Christine: And then like listen to the thing and go, “That’s what this was about? Like there was a sexy scene? What the fuck?”

Em: Exactly. Yeah. I remember her being like so obsessed with Wuthering Heights and the fact that there’s a movie out right now, I just know she took the class to like, like a field trip to see it or something.

Christine: OMG. That was the only book I read in high school, and I was like, “I love this book.” And then sometimes I’m like, “Wait, I probably would have loved a lot of the books.” Because like that’s the only one I read, and I liked it. So I’m like, I probably would have enjoyed them, but no one will ever know.

Em: I wonder if, if English teachers allow audiobooks as an option now because I would have really thrived if I could have listened to the book–

Christine: Now, that–

Em: –versus reading it.

Christine: –would have completely changed the game.

Em: If I am to affect an English teacher listening to this, please let your children just listen to the book instead of read it.

Christine: Here’s the thing. That’s a– And that’s really a good point because I love to read, and it’s not like I hate reading. It’s like at– In high school, I did not have, sorry to say, the– I– and I think a lot of kids don’t– teenagers– like the context, the time, the space, the privacy, like I– There was no way for me to read a book– like have the time or read a bo– like I had parents who–

Em: I also just didn’t have the fucking care. I just didn’t care.

Christine: Like I had par– I like didn’t really care either, but I just knew like there was no space for me to care. Like my stepdad would literally turn the power off at night so that we couldn’t read like in high school.

Em: Hm.

Christine: Like, so I didn’t even– And I’m not making excuses. It’s like I could have read the fucking book, right? But like–

Em: No, but that’s a, that’s a good point–

Christine: –man, I had such limited time.

Em: –that like you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t know what’s going on in someone’s house where like–

Christine: Yeah. And I wish I could have read more, and then I got like a five on the AP English exam, and my teacher accused me of cheating, and I was like, “You are a bitch.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Except I just cried instead.

Em: [chuckles] I only took one AP class and got a one, and I– it was deserved. I was very bad at all school.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um–

Christine: Hey, in Germany, one is an A, so.

Em: I wish you were there. I wish you were there for t– when I told my mom–

Christine: You gotta go over there and tell them–

Em: –that I got a one, and she went, “Are you fucking kidding me?”

Christine: You should tell my German mom, and she’ll be so proud of you. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: We should have swapped moms for the day.

Em: We should have. No, I– And I think– I was obsessed with, um, anything visual. In hindsight–

Christine: Right.

Em: –like I’ve said this a million times, even as an adult, like dry text, I just couldn’t lock the fuck in.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And, uh, had I known there was an audiobook version, and in 2026, when you could like two-speed it–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –like press it, make it go faster, if I knew that instead of reading a book, it would take me an hour, it would take me like 20 minutes if I was just listening to it–

Christine: Man.

Em: –I would have been so much more likely to actually follow through. So anyway, maybe we’re making excuses. I don’t really care. Um–

Christine: I mean, it, it might be an excuse, but it’s also just an explanation, you know? Like it’s not necessarily an excuse.

Em: Excellent.

Christine: I don’t have– Like I should have read the books, of course, right? That’s my– I’m a student. I’m supposed to read the books. I didn’t. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Most of them. [laughs]

Em: I, uh– I just– I, I actively– I have no excuse.

Christine: You think I’m gonna read Grapes of Wrath? Like I can barely hang on at ho– to like a semblance of sanity, and you want me to read Grapes of Wrath? Please.

Em: I, I don’t have an excuse the way you do. I just actively didn’t read. I saw that my homework for the night was to read these three chapters, and I went, “Well, I’m not gonna do that.” And then I–

Christine: I– But like it’s also important to know what you want and what you don’t want.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I think that’s something to be celebrated.

Em: Well, for the first time ever, I read “A Monkey’s Paw” last night. So, um– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Are you changed?

Em: No. Um–

Christine: Okay, good to know. You weren’t missing out.

Em: Yeah, I feel like I– for– I think I was– I, I never read the books, but then during discussion, I would kind of pick up on enough cues where like–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –I kind of got the gist of it at least. And I know that’s not what any teacher wants to hear, but I picked up enough where I could bullshit my way through.

Christine: We’re Geminis. That’s what we do best.

Em: And from what I gathered in those discussions, I, I– [sighs] Same thing.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: I really thought this was– ’Cause in my memory, like I know one thing happens, and I thought, “Oh, that’s just the beginning, and it’s gonna get scarier.” And this one I was like, “Oh, I think that was like actually the scary part, and I didn’t know it at the time.” Like I think I– Well, you tell me.

Christine: I think, I think I have no idea what this is.

Em: Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Okay, so, um, here’s “The Monkey’s Paw.” [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah, bring it on. This is your book report.

Em: This is my version, and this is the CliffsNotes I would have paid attention to when I was 14.

Christine: Oh god, sorry. There’s like a fucking coffee stain on my shirt. Okay.

Em: Beautiful.

Christine: Thanks.

Em: Um, okay, so it’s a rainy London night.

Christine: Mm.

Em: There is a family of three in the house. There– This is the White family: Mr. White, Mrs. White, and their son, Herbert. Herbert is a grown man, by the way. When I first was reading this, I was like, “Herbert’s ten.” No. Herbert’s an adult.

Christine: Herbert’s a little infant named Herbert.

Em: [laughs] Herbert is an adult.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Um, Mr. White and his son, Herbert, are playing chess. Mr. White– I, I added this in because I did actually, uh, in honor of my high school days, I did go look at CliffsNotes just to see if there were any things I should be adding in here.

Christine: Oh, that’s interesting. [chuckles]

Em: Because otherwise, I would have just deleted this, this part. I’d been like, “Why the fuck do we care?” But apparently–

Christine: I feel like on your CliffsNotes it’s like “been a member since 2007.” [chuckles]

Em: [laughs] I had to log in with my old high school email.

Christine: 1998. [laughs]

Em: Um, no, but I, I was like, you know this was taught to like children in Engla– in English class to like–

Christine: Right.

Em: –stimulate their interest in reading, so there must be something important here. And so–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –there’s like foreshadowing and symbolism and all that. So I was trying to– So I’m adding– I’m keeping the things in that an English teacher would give a shit about.

Christine: The themes and all that. Good, good, good.

Em: So Mr. White is a– We find out, while he’s playing chess with his son, he’s a risky chess player.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: He’s making impulsive choices here.

Christine: Mm.

Em: That’s the foreshadowing.

Christine: Red flag.

Em: Um, and his wife–

Christine: If they called foreshadowing “red flags,” like that would also–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –help the youth, I think, understand.

Em: Actually, if you’re an English teacher, if you just want me and Christine to come to your school and just like actually just talk shit about the book, it will stick with them longer.

Christine: I think so.

Em: ’Cause it– You’re totally right. If someone said “red flag,” I would have been like, “Oh, I’m gonna clock that for later.”

Christine: Like shit, yeah. I feel like that’s like a fun new angle, you know.

Em: Should we just be teachers now?

Christine: I guess so. I don’t know. I don’t think I’m cut out for it. I’m too sensitive.

Em: I think that’s–

Christine: I’m far too sensitive.

Em: I think I’m not sensitive enough. And then I–

Christine: And I’m also– [laughs] And then also like I don’t have ti– That’s way too much work for me.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I can barely clean my house, let alone teach people. Please.

Em: I could hear you dragging a cigarette when you say that. [laughs]

Christine: I mean, really. I would, I would b– I would never survive. Props to the teachers. I c–

Em: Amen.

Christine: I just– You really do some work that’s hard, hard work.

Em: Well, if you’re a teacher and you don’t really feel like teaching your kids about “The Monkey’s Paw,” just let them play this as the audiobook that I was talking about and then–

Christine: I think that this sounds pretty similar to what it probably is.

Em: Okay, perfect. So everyone–

Christine: The– It’s the Em’sNotes.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Could have used that. Okay, so they’re playing chess. Mr. White, risky chess player. His wife, the Mrs. White, she’s just chilling next to them, and, uh, I guess Mr. White starts complaining that they live really far out of town and maybe that’s why their special guest of the night hasn’t gotten there yet. And you’re like, “Oh, who’s this creepy little guest that’s coming?”

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, it is not a monkey. I thought it was a monkey when I was reading this.

Christine: I thought donkey for some reason. Then I went, “Why’d I think donkey?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I’m like, “Maybe because it’s one letter off of monkey.” [laughs]

Em: Well, like I hear “monkey’s paw,” and then I hear an interesting guest is coming, and I’m like, “It’s obviously the monkey, and he’s–“

Christine: I’m like, it’s either a genie in a bottle– Well, I don’t know. You go on.

Em: S– Well, very close. So, um, okay. So they’re com–

Christine: Oh, so– ’Cause you said “careful what you wish for.” I was like, “Where did I come up with that?”

Em: [laughs] I was– I w– Yeah. Uh, so they’re, they’re complaining, “Oh, you know, we’re so far out of town. And maybe our guest isn’t even gonna make it.” Well, the guest does arrive, and he knocks on the door, and it is, I guess, Mr. White’s friend from back in the day, and he’s a military man named Sergeant-Major Morris. I’m just gonna call him Morris from now on.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And I guess Morris has spent like 20 years overseas working in India.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Which cr– this, this story, by the way, comes out in 1902, so maybe it’s more normal back then to not see your friends for like 20 fucking years.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But that one blew me away.

Christine: I would be–

Em: And how do you keep in touch? How do you– There’s no Facebook. How do you keep in touch? 20 years–

Christine: Well, no wonder they’re so worried. And also like how do they know he’s coming tonight? Like if he’s just kind of like w– meandering his way 20 years across– Okay.

Em: Maybe this is why families just lived in the same house for their entire life because what if someone from your past–

Christine: You know where to find me.

Em: –forever ago needs to know where you are. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Ai-yi-yi. Could not be me. So anyway, Mr. Morris– I know he’s Sergeant-Major. I’m sorry. Sergeant-Major Morris, he, he’s finally in town. I don’t know how they arranged this. That’s not my business.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: He shows up, and he’s sharing stories with them about his travels, and Mr. White goes, “Oh, yeah, well Morris, what was that story you were just telling me about a little bit ago?” I’m assuming in a letter.

Christine: 20– Oh, I was like, “What? 20 fucking years ago?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Let’s not be ridiculous.” Okay. I guess what you’re saying is a letter. Okay.

Em: “What was that story you were just telling me about, Morris? The woman about like the monkey’s paw?” And then Morris gets really fucking quiet, and he’s like, “We don’t need to talk about that one.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: I know. The suspense is building.

Christine: Immediately, I’m like, “[sighs] Speak up.”

Em: [laughs] And Mrs. White did, by the way. She was like, “No, no.”

Christine: Oh! No, no, no, no, no.

Em: “you’re a guest in–“

Christine: “This is why I hang out by the chess table.”

Em: “You’re a guest in my fucking house.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “Tell me about this monkey’s paw.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And he goes like, “No–“ I think his exact words, I think, because I did not– I just was kind of jibbering on.

Christine: ’Cause the CliffsNotes didn’t have direct quotes. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Um, he says something like, “That’s hardly worth mentioning.” Like, “Let’s not even get into it.”

Christine: Ooh, okay.

Em: But he does mention– which like the stupidest thing in the world unless he wanted us to keep asking questions. He goes, “It’s hardly worth mentioning. It had like something to do with like– It was, it was about magic.”

Christine: Oh! He’s baiting them for sure.

Em: And the family, who I’m assuming lives in the middle of nowhere in the same house for 20 years–

Christine: Exactly.

Em: –and only–

Christine: Playing chess.

Em: Their only fund is chess and writing letters. And then they–

Christine: Hey, by the way, he’s a risky chess player. That’s the most depressing sentence I’ve ever heard.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That this man and his son are risky chess player– Like that’s what you’ve got going for you? You’re not even like leaving your– You’re playing with only one person.

Em: I know. [laughs]

Christine: I can’t deal with this right now.

Em: So of course they lean in–

Christine: I can’t deal with this.

Em: –and they’re like, “Well, you just said magic, so fucking pipe up.”

Christine: Oh my gosh.

Em: So the guy, he goes, “[sighs] Alright.” And so he digs through his pocket. He literally has this thing on his bo– on his person, but he was like, “Oh–“

Christine: He’s like, “Oh, this old thing? I guess I’ll bring it up.”

Em: [chuckles] “I’m not gonna talk about it, but it just happens to be exactly in my–“

Christine: “But–“

Em: “–favorite pocket.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: So he digs through his pockets. He shovels around. He pulls this thing out, and it’s a dried up literal paw of a monkey.

Christine: Cool. I was hoping like that was metaphorical.

Em: Not in 1902.

Christine: Got it.

Em: Um, it was very much like– I remember when I was a kid, I got a rabbit’s foot, and I was like– I found out–

Christine: That's what I pictured. Yeah.

Em: I found out a year later it was a literal fucking foot of a rabbit, and I was like, “Well, this thing I’ve been snuggling up with has to go in the trash.”

Christine: Hey, love that for you.

Em: It’s a corpse.

Christine: What did, what did you think it was, my friend?

Em: I thought it was something metaphorical because I was like, “Why on earth would I be holding a, a random body part?”

Christine: Oh, yeah. It’s a dead animal, and then they like paint it pink, and you’re like, “Oh, that’s cute,” and it’s like, “Wait, what the fuck?”

Em: It was green. I was like, “This is obviously like a stuffed animal foot of a stuffed animal rabbit.”

Christine: No, then you look at the little claws, and you’re like, “Holy shit.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And his toe pads.

Em: When I realized it was hard inside because of bones, I was hold– I was just carrying around an ankle, you know.

Christine: [laughs] You were carrying around someone’s ankle.

Em: And I was like, “Well, this has to go in the trash.” The–

Christine: That’s so fucked up.

Em: I literally– I’d been like– ’Cause–

Christine: Do rabbits have ankles?

Em: Because it was so soft, I like would rub it on my face all the time. I was like–

Christine: Aghh!

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Em, you need to have– you need to read the cautionary instructions that probably don’t come with a rabbit’s foot.

Em: [laughs] No, but I just heard like– It’s–

Christine: That’s like the equivalent of like lab rats that you just like buy to feed your–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –feed your pet snake, you know?

Em: I know.

Christine: Oh my god, I can’t deal with this right now. This is– I just can’t deal with this right now.

Em: Side note, speaking of rats, I will say the biggest surprise last night during the Hannahversary that Allison threw me was–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: We were watching outside. We have a projector, so we were watching outside.

Christine: Oh, we got derailed by the yard. Yeah, you had your Hannah Montana night. I’m sorry.

Em: And the biggest surprise of the entire thing was a rat ran through our yard. Um–

Christine: Gasp.

Em: –and that really ruined the vibes. So if you know what to do about rats, please tell me what to do.

Christine: That feels like a Hannah Montana episode though.

Em: [laughs] It does, doesn’t it.

Christine: Like a rat runs through and like no one believes her or something. Or she’s trying to hide the rat from somebody.

Em: I, I pray there’s only one, but, um, you never know with these things. And after the roaches, we’re both pretty traumatized, so if you could just tell us–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –what the fuck to do, that’d be incredible. Thanks so much.

Christine: You’re not talking to me, right?

Em: No, no, just anyone–

Christine: Thank, thank the Lo–

Em: –who’s a rat expert. [sighs]

Christine: I was like, certainly you couldn’t be asking me for help on this one. Okay.

Em: Um, and I’m not one of those people who fucking likes rats. If you’re a rat person, congratulations. Do not tell me, “We should trap it and be friends with it.” Fuck that. Absolutely not. This thing–

Christine: Yeah, you did just say you wanna hear from rat people, and I feel like you should be more spec– or rat experts. You said rat experts.

Em: People who want rats as far fucking away from them as possible who have dealt with this, please let me know.

Christine: You know, I just, just thinking about Justin Whaley–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and I feel like– [laughs] I feel like we owe him a call or two.

Em: What an obscure reference to people who did not go on our tour.

Christine: When I tell you two days ago, I was driving down the highway, and my brain went, “Justin Whaley,” and I went, “Is he here? Did he die?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like I have no clue, but I– ‘Cause I was driving, but my brain just went, “Justin Whaley.” And then I think it was because I saw like this van that had a big snake, and it said, “pest removal,” and I was like, “What a fucking wackadoo van.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like they’ve like clearly hand-did this, and I was like, “Looks like Justin W– you know, it looks like Justin Whaley.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Like that literally went– wouldn’t leave my head. So anyway, you say rat problem, I say–

Em: Justin W– Justin Whaley.

Christine: Get him on the horn.

Em: Justin Whaley is–

Christine: I have his Facebook.

Em: I think he cared about snakes or something though, right? Wasn’t he a snake man?

Christine: Uh, yeah. It was more reptiles.

Em: Mm.

Christine: That’s true. That’s true. But I’m sure he could like point you in the right direction.

Em: That’s right. That’s rat.

Christine: That’s rat. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’m sure he could point you in the rat direction. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Like, are you Southern or did you just say rat? [sighs] Where are we with this? Okay. Oh, oh. Rabbit’s foot led to– fro– monkey’s paw. Okay.

Christine: [laughs] To rats.

Em: Ma– Monkey’s paw.

Christine: Led to reptiles.

Em: [laughs] So, um, so he throws this little dried monkey’s paw on the table, um, and basically, he tells the family that, “Oh, I got this in India. There was a practitioner there who put a spell on it to show people that you know to not mess with fate. If you mess with fate you’ll regret it.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: “And this monkey’s paw will show you if you have any doubts about that.” So basically the spell that this practitioner put on the monkey’s paw, it, it was up to like three people were allowed to have this experience– or to test their belief in fate where one person would own it, they get to make three wishes. And then a second person would get it.

Christine: Mm.

Em: They could have three wishes. A third person would get it. They could have three wishes, and then I guess the curse is broken.

Christine: It has like three uses– Oh, okay, okay, okay. And then it like is just like a paw, like a rabbit’s foot, paw.

Em: Yeah. That part is not discussed.

Christine: Hm.

Em: That part’s not discussed.

Christine: Maybe it just has like limited magic, you know? You can only use it a certain number of times.

Em: Sure. Like he– Like the spell onl– has an expiration date.

Christine: Like wears off. Yeah.

Em: He’s like, “On average, three people will get through this before I have to do it again.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Sure. That makes sense.

Em: We’re– We know all about Indian magic, yes.

Christine: We're, we’re on to it.

Em: So Morris says, seems resentfully, that he is the second person to own this monkey’s paw–

Christine: Gasp.

Em: –and that the first person, the person he got this from, did in fact ask for three wishes and those three wishes were granted, but there were so many tragic hijinks–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –that came from his wishes that the third and final wish the original guy requested was to die.

Christine: Oh! Gasp-a.

Em: He was just like, “I just– I wish death because I–“

Christine: What the fuck?

Em: So. And then somehow, Morris ended up getting it. Um, they really gloss over like, did you know that man or like did– How did– Did you just pick it out of– Did you steal it from him on his, on his dead body? Like how do you have this thing?

Christine: Mm.

Em: But anyway, he’s the second person to have it. And I guess he has also regretfully requested for wishes to be granted, and he says, “I don’t even wanna talk about it. It– it’s too, too much for me. This is, this is a bad situation.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, he’s asked if he could go back and start all over and ask three different wishes, which ones would he ask? And Morris goes, “I have no idea. I don’t know what I would ask,” and then he just looks at the monkey’s paw, and he throws it in the fire.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And the whole family’s like scrambling to get it out of the fire. They’re like, “What is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? Like, if you don’t want it, we’ll take it. Like, we’ll be the third people.”

Christine: Oh, ’cause they want the magic of it. Okay.

Em: Yeah. And all Morris says is, “Better let it burn.”

Christine: Ooh, spooky.

Em: So the family then say, like I said, “If you don’t want it, we’ll take it.” And Morris says, “You can have it, but don’t blame me for what happens next.”

Christine: So it s– it survived the fire?

Em: It survived the fire. Um, and I do wonder like how many wishes did Morris get?

Christine: That’s what I was gonna ask. Did he like get– I guess maybe throwing in the fire was his like–

Em: Maybe.

Christine: –severing from it. I don’t know.

Em: Wouldn’t you– Yeah, I don’t know.

Christine: Or maybe you pass it on to a new owner and then you’re freed from it? I have no idea. [chuckles]

Em: You know–

Christine: Clearly, I was not reading this in high school, so.

Em: Well, I also don’t know like the rules. Like if you haven’t had all three wishes, is it still technically your–

Christine: Exactly. Like–

Em: –job and is it like now messier for them?

Christine: –is it linked to you? Yeah.

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: Hm.

Em: Um, so anyway, they, they’re like, “We’ll take it. Fine,” and he immediately thinks to make like some sort of silly wish. And so he’s about to make like his first wish– Mr. White–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: He’s about to make his first wish, and Morris grabs his hand and is like, “If you’re gonna make a wish with this thing, you better be fucking smart about it. Like don’t–“

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “Like, be careful.”

Christine: Uh-oh.

Em: And then he leaves. He’s like, “I’m out of here.” [chuckles] He, uh–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I think he stays–

Christine: Oh my god. Wow. So he just got rid of that thing.

Em: Yeah. I, I– The story went that he–

Christine: Do you know why I think he showed up? I think he showed up ’cause he told him about this fucking monkey paw in a letter and this guy, Mr. White, was like, “I, I must– I want that.” And he was like, “Well, perfect, ’cause you can fucking have it. I’m gonna come all the way to you.”

Em: You and I think similarly because I was like, “If I had this horrible cursed object that I wanted to get rid of, I know a guy from 20 years ago, and I know where he lives.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “Why don’t I just start writing him and catch up and pretend like I’ve got some crazy stories?”

Christine: And he seemed way into it, so like why not?

Em: We’re– [sighs] God, we– Something’s wrong with us that we think that way, but.

Christine: That’s very sick, very sick.

Em: Um, [chuckles] but I was like–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –“I, I could see that happening.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So he ends up leaving for the night, and it’s just the family, and basically, they ask, “Oh, well, you know–“ The kid and the wife are asking Mr. White, “Oh, if you were to ask for a wish, what would you wish?” And he was like, “I don’t know. I kind of have everything I’ve ever wanted. I have no idea what I would ask.” And his son goes, “Oh, well, we need to pay off the house. Like then, you know, if we’re thinking about like, you know, being rich and famous and– Maybe we could be royalty or something crazy. Like why don’t we just test it with just paying off the mortgage?”

Christine: Mm. Like a simple, easy–

Em: Yeah, that’s a harmless one.

Christine: –straightforward–

Em: Like nothing bad can come from that. Let’s just pay off the mortgage.

Christine: Oh my god. Here we go.

Em: And th–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: So the mortgage, by the way, was £200, which–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –in 1902 was the equivalent of today’s $10,000.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Em: And so–

Christine: Good big chunk of change.

Em: What’s that?

Christine: Big chunk of change. I’m opening my THC seltz– soda. I just– I need it.

Em: Excellent.

Christine: I need a moment. You know what I’m saying?

Em: I, I know exactly what you’re saying.

Christine: Anyway.

Em: We wanna hear the first sip.

Christine: Oh, okay.

[Christine takes a sip from the can, but she spills it, and she cups her hand to try to catch the droplets from landing on her clothes.]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Okay. Well, it went actually everywhere, and we didn’t hear the sip, by the way. So, um–

Christine: You heard a snort though.

Em: [laughs] What flavor is that?

Christine: Oh, it’s lovely. It’s salted watermelon.

Em: Love.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Looks excellent. Again, no sip, but I’m gonna imagine it was incredible.

Christine: [drinks, swallowing before making a refreshing sigh sound] Ahh.

Em: There you go. Okay, delightful. So Mr. White, he says, “Okay, yeah, let’s cover the mortgage.” And so he holds the monkey’s paw up, and he says, “I wish for £200.” And then he like kind of freaks out and throws the monkey’s paw. And everyone’s like, “What’s your deal?” And he was like, “I felt it move in my fucking hand.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Yuck. And the family ignores it. They’re like, “Okay, whatever. Like you–“ Even his mo– his– not his mom, his wife was like, “You made that up. Like you’re just– You’re overthinking it. I’m sure nothing actually happened.“

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You imagined things, yeah.

Em: “Let’s go to bed.” so they go to bed. They wake up the next morning. Everything's normal. Uh, the son goes to work. That's when I found out the son is not ten. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: But also in 1902, maybe he’s–

Christine: I mean–

Em: –like a little newsie or something, you know.

Christine: –he’s like building the Titanic or some shit.

Em: Yeah. [laughs] And so, uh, a few hours later, all of a sudden, Mrs. White sees a mysterious man in their yard.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And this man is acting real dodgy, and he is like clearly wanting to go to the door, but he’s hesitating. And he like–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –walks up to the door and then like retract– retreats.

Christine: Ooh. Ooh.

Em: And then he walks up to the door again, and he retreats.

Christine: Oh–

Em: And he walks to the door, and he retreats.

Christine: –I don’t– Uh-huh.

Em: And then after those three times, he, I guess, gets the courage, and he goes up to the door, and Mrs. White goes, “Are, are you okay? Like do you wanna come inside?” He comes into the house, and he unfortunately has to tell them something happened to Herbert–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –at work, and there was–

Christine: No!

Em: –a machine incident.

Christine: No!

Em: And he did not survive.

Christine: No!

Em: And of course, they’re distraught. The, the man now says like, you know, “I work for his company, and we’re aware of the services he was providing, and so, as compensation, we would like to give you £200.”

Christine: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

[Em startles, looking to their left and then to their right as if listening and looking for something.]

Christine: What? What?

Em: The door– Hello?

[Em leans to the side, trying to see something better.]

Christine: Hello? You’re scaring the shit out of me.

Em: Oh, it– Oh my god. It was Hank.

Christine: Jesus fucking hell.

Em: [sighs] You freaked the shit out of me.

Allison: [off-camera] You locked me in there.

Em: I didn’t lock you in. We don’t have a lock on the door. [chuckles]

Allison: [off-camera] Close it all the way [unintelligible]–

Em: Oh, oh, oh. Yeah. By the– uh, we have, uh, we have a door that doesn’t– It like– The latch doesn’t move. So you have to like shove the door to like– in–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –or you have to like shove it out. ’Cause it’s like–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Anyway, no. So I heard her yank the door open–

Christine: Oh, oh, oh.

Em: –and I was like, “What the fuck was that sound?”

Christine: Yeah, that was startling. I mean, I’m already kind of creeped out by this story, I’ll be honest.

Em: [laughs] So um, so that’s how they ended up getting their £200. Very “be careful what you wish for.”

Christine: I– My Amelia Bedelia dumbass thought it was gonna be like, “Oh, and then all of a sudden, he woke up, and he had gained an enormous amount of weight.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like 200 p– And I was like, “And he couldn’t work anymore.” Or like I literally thought like, “Oh, they weren’t careful with their words.” I’m such a– Fine.

Em: But that– Okay, so I do remember this part from high school, and this part has definitely fucked me up in a certain way because there are times where I’ll wish for something– or like in my head like–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –or like whatever the closest to like prayer would be for me–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –like speaking to the universe, I’ve always noticed that I get oddly specific like, like in a way–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –where like the sentence stretches out to like a two-minute, three-minute long sentence where I’m–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –making it extra clear what I want.

Christine: Well, in that case, you can kind of be like, you know, “with my, my best and highest good in mind,” you know. I think you can usually like cover it with a statement. I don’t know about magic paws that move in your hand. That part, way above my pay grade, but I think if you’re just doing a simple prayer to the universe, like they’ll, they’ll– Like your guides will be like, “We got you.”

Em: I, I, I have actually– It’s funny you say that because in my, um, more recent years, I have started just saying the blanket statement of like, “you know what I mean.” [laughs] Or I’m like–

Christine: Exactly, exactly.

Em: –like, “You get the intention here.”

Christine: Like the intention, it’s– Yeah, yeah, yeah. The words don’t have to be perfect.

Em: But there, there was a time where I was like, “Oh, you know, and you know, I hope that this happens–“

Christine: Totally.

Em: “–but also not in a way where anyone gets hurt–“

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: “–and also not in a way where this happens and also–”

Christine: Talk about anxiety. And then you were like raised in the Catholic Church. You’re like, “And this person–“ then someone dies, and you’re like, “I didn’t pray enough for them–“

Em: Yes.

Christine: “–and now they’re dead.” You know, I mean, it’s just nuts.

Em: Interesting. I’m sure there’s ties. I’m, I’m sure people have compared this story to the overlaps in that.

Christine: Interesting.

Em: Um, because this certainly does, um, feel like one of my first insights into having anxiety.

Christine: [chuckles] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, so it’s now– By the way, this, this story, I didn’t even tell you, is in three parts.

Christine: Oh, okay.

Em: Um, and s–

Christine: Oh, well, three wishes, I guess.

Em: What’s that?

Christine: Is it like three wishes? Like–

Em: No. That’s what I thought because I saw–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –“part three,” and I went, “Oh, that’ll be the final wish.” But it’s just, um, beginning, middle, and end basically.

Christine: [chuckles] Okay.

Em: It’s like story structure, which I could see why an English teacher would teach that, but–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: [laughs] Yeah.

Christine: Boring. [laughs]

Em: I know. That’s what I thought. I was like, “Really? Okay.” And also, I was thinking like in the world of like cinema where it’s like– Like in Avengers movies, it’s like little fight, big fight, biggest fight at the end–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –like the finale fight.

Christine: Big time.

Em: I was like, “Oh, there’ll be a finale wish,” but.

Christine: Oh, the dénouement?

Em: The dénouement. Yes.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Pièce de résistance.

Christine: Oh, beautiful.

Em: Lot– Crème de la crème. A lot of French.

Christine: Climax?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Anyway.

Em: So okay, now we’re in part three, by the way. That was–

Christine: Wait, what? Already?

Em: [laughs] That’s what I’m saying. I got to part three–

Christine: Oh. [chuckles]

Em: –and I was like, “Really? So far?”

Christine: Oh, I was like, “I’m ready to buckle in for like the longest episode ever.” Okay.

Em: Nope. We’re at the end. [chuckles] So–

Christine: [laughs] Oh my god. Okay. So– I mean, it’s terrible, right? Okay. So the guy– the kid dies, right? Okay.

Em: Yeah, the kid di–

Christine: They get the £200.

Em: –or maybe like the 60-year-old man dies. I’m still unsure.

Christine: Right, or the ten-year-old. We’re really unclear.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So it’s been a week now since Herbert died, since his funeral.

Christine: Oof.

Em: The couple’s obviously grieving. Mrs. White is frantical– like frantic, frantic, out of nowhere. This is after a week and a half of him being gone. She was completely silent. The house was silent. And then she like s– like totally freaks out.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And she goes, “I totally forgot about that monkey’s paw. We still have two more wishes.”

Christine: Oh, yes. And now you’re gonna bring him back. Oh no.

Em: So–

Christine: Fuck!

Em: She frant–

Christine: ’Cause I would do it too. I would do it too.

Em: A-anyone would. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And so she like is panicked, and like she’s acting like super frenetic. That’s the word you use. She’s very–

Christine: Frenetic is a good one.

Em: –frenetically demanding her husband, “Go get the paw from downstairs. Go get the paw. Make another wish for Herbert to come back.” And Mr. White does not want to. He like has it in his gut. He was like, “I just saw what wishing for–“

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “–a fucking mortgage paycheck did to our family–“

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “–and the guy before us told us that it ruined his life. The guy before him wished to die.”

Christine: [sucks in breath] Right.

Em: “Like, I don’t wanna do this.” Um, and so– And now after learning these like harsh consequences from a simple wish–

Christine: Right.

Em: –he– all he– he doesn’t wanna do it, but he also admits to his wife like, “I’m the one that had to view his body after a machinery incident–“

Christine: [shudders] Eugh. [sighs]

Em: “–and I’m telling you that he was unrecognizable, and I don’t– If we bring him back, what does that mean? Is he like–“

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: “Does he look like that permanently? Is he a zombie? Is he–“

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “Is the, the– Are the injuries so bad that he is no longer himself or– you know?”

Christine: Right.

Em: Uh, and so he’s like freaked out in that way too. He’s like, “I don’t even know what that could mean.” Like, “Or if–“

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “–he comes back, do you die? Do I die? What happens?”

Christine: Right. Good point.

Em: Um, Mrs. White is obviously just like–

Christine: Persistent?

Em: Yeah. She’s out of her mind at the fact that there’s even an option that her kid can come back.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So she’s forcefully like, “I don’t give a fuck. Make this wish.” And she even said something like, “You think I’d be scared of my like son if he looked different?”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “Like I’m, I’m– He’s my son. Bring him back.”

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: And she was so intense about this and he was so hesitant that Mr. White even, in the story, is claiming that that the room feels off. Like the, the walls are like morphing a certain way.

Christine: Eugh.

Em: He’s saying his wife doesn’t even look like herself. Like he– Like everything just looks totally warped from reality.

Christine: Oof.

Em: Now, this is where I say, “Why wouldn’t Mrs. White just grab the paw herself and make the wish?” Because it sounds like–

Christine: Because I think it’s like the third person. I think it has to be three people.

Em: Oh, it’s the third person.

Christine: You know what I mean?

Em: Well, ’cause my thought was it sounds like the or– the– their friend never finished his three wishes.

Christine: But maybe he did.

Em: But maybe he did.

Christine: And maybe we just don’t know what– Maybe he’s like, “Pass this on to someone else or something, you know?” I don’t know.

Em: You’re right. You’re right.

Christine: [chuckles] I mean, I’m not right.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I have no clue. I’ve never read this in my life. Um, but, you know, that’s my– I don’t know.

Em: Well, so Mr. White, he says the room feels off. Everything is feeling really dark. The energy is super heavy. And his wife is yelling at him, “Make the wish. Make the wish.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And so he gives in, and he says, “I wish my son was alive.” And the monkey’s paw once again twitches in his hand, and he throws it, freaked out.

Christine: [sighs]

Em: Which is what I would do if my fucking rabbit foot ever twitched. I’d go, “Agh!”

Christine: Oh, that’s a, that’s a Goosebumps book, for sure.

Em: Mrs. White runs to the window and looks outside all night long. She’s like, “He could come at any moment. He could come at any moment.”

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: And she waits for a sign of her son to return.

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god.

Em: After hours of nothing happening and just sitting in silence, the two of them head to bed, and they believe that the wish just didn’t work.

Christine: I don’t like where this is going.

Em: Both of them laid awake, and the room felt so heavy that they couldn’t sleep. So Mr. White gets up to light some candles. ’Cause, remember, there are no other types of fucking light at this point in time.

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You wanna play chess? Grab a candle. [chuckles]

Em: [laughs] In the dark, like Christine, which is why she couldn’t read. Um–

Christine: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I should have gotten me a candelabra back then.

Em: You would have really done wonders with a candelabra.

Christine: Actually, I wasn’t allowed to own matches. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’m not making that up.

Em: Well, so he goes to the stairs to light his first candle–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and, uh, the lit match blows itself out.

Christine: Ah, you hate to see that.

Em: And then he hears–

Christine: Oh.

Em: [taps on the microphone five times softly] –just a gentle knocking–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –at the door.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: And he cannot move, move. He’s frozen. And then all of a sudden, he hears it again. And then he hears it again. And then he hears [bangs on the table five times, shaking the camera]–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –bang, bang, bang, bang, bang on the door. Did everyone like that? First time.

Christine: It’s a campfire tale.

Em: First time in, in And That’s Why We Drink history, I’m just slamming on things.

Christine: You’re just like doing foley work over there.

Em: Th– [chuckles] Thank you.

Christine: Let’s call it what it is.

Em: Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang on the door. And Mrs. White runs out of the bedroom and runs over to Mr. White. And before she can even get downstairs, the door is still banging and banging and banging. And Mr. White grabs her arm and begs her not to open the door. He’s like, “I have a really bad feeling. Do not open the door.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “Do not open the door.”

Christine: Dread, dread.

Em: He can sense something is off, but his wife does not care.

Christine: [sucks in a breath]

Em: And she screams, “Let me go. I’m coming, Herbert.”

Christine: Oh…

Em: “I’m gonna let you in.” She breaks free from her husband’s grasp. She– the– There’s still banging everywhere, banging all over the door. She breaks free from his grasp and runs to the door, and she starts unlatching the door, but there’s a final bolt that’s too tall for her, and she can’t get it. So she’s frantically screaming, “Help me unlock the door. Help me unlock the door.” And he’s just standing there, hearing bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And panicked and desperate, she’s begging for him to help. She’s even grabbing a chair and dragging it over so she can stand on the chair and unlock it herself ’cause he’s moving too slow. What she doesn’t know is that he’s actually on the ground on his hands and feet, looking around, trying to find this, this monkey’s paw–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –so he can make a final wish before she gets to finally open the door.

Christine: Oh!

Em: And so he’s just hearing bang, bang, bang and her crying and screaming and saying, “I’m coming, Herbert. I’m gonna come– I’ll let you in. Help me unlock the door.”

Christine: And he’s like frantically seeking this paw?

Em: And he’s like, “Where the fuck is this paw?”

Christine: ’Cause he threw it.

Em: “Where the fuck is this paw?”

Christine: Oh jeez.

Em: Meanwhile, the door is still banging, and the knocks are getting louder and heavier, and his wife’s struggling is getting louder and heavier. And Mr. White, looking for the paw, finally finds it right as she’s unlatching the last lock, and he makes a third wish. And we don’t know what the wish officially is. But when she finally opens the door, nobody’s there.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And she runs out. He runs out into the street. Nobody is in the street. Nobody’s around the house. And the story ends with assuming that Herbert has returned back to the grave.

Christine: W–

Em: And it ends with him just hearing his wife crying that his– her son is officially gone.

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: Now, to me, when I look back on my experience pretending I read the book–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and trying to guess how it ended–

Christine: I can picture you on a stage someday. “When I look back on the experience of pretending to read this book–“ [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Well, I remembered, I remembered that the son– They made a wish, and somehow, through like the, the chain of events, the son died even though that was nowhere near the wish that they grant– they asked.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I remembered that part, and I thought, “Well, surely that’s the first wish.” ’Cause I know the three wishes happen, and that’s got to be the beginning of, of hell.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: I did not know that the second wish was going to lead to something we don’t even see the results of and the third wish would just be closing out the story. And I remember thinking, “Well, no wonder I only remember the son dying. That– The most tragic thing happens in like part one.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Em: And also– I think like what’s supposed to be like beautiful writing about it is that like we never know what the third wish is–

Christine: Ugh.

Em: –and the third wish is whatever you need the third wish to be.

Christine: So fucking annoying.

Em: And I’m like, “Fuck that.”

Christine: Just tell me what it is. Just tell me what it is.

Em: Like and I, I have to assume it’s like, “I wish he goes back to the grave or–“ But then how, how come that one got tied up in a pretty little bow and not– no bad consequences came from that?

Christine: But so we don’t know.

Em: But we don’t know. Maybe there’s a sequel.

Christine: Because maybe he was perfectly healthy, and he was about to open the door, and he said– And now he has to live with the uncertainty of like maybe his son was behind the door like perfectly healed, you know.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And now he has to live with the uncertainty of like, “Did I just like kill him again?”

Em: Oh, shit. Okay, maybe– I see where you’re supposed to be the writer o-of the two. I– It feels like, um, the movie Hereditary a little bit that there’s like the parental guilt and that’s the dread that carries through the whole story.

Christine: R-right, it’s like the pattern– Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ooh.

Em: So in this, the–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –the foreshadowing– I just wanna list some of the things that an English teacher would have been happy for me to note now, um, was the foreshadowing of the risky chess playing and how he would impulsively make a wish without thinking it through.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Although, it feels like anyone would have made that kind of fucking wish whether or not you’re a risk taker.

Christine: Like pay off the loan is not like a risky wish either, you know.

Em: Especially in 2026, I’d be like, “Do you know how much fucking debt we’re all in? Like–“

Christine: Well, but especially back then, it’s like, “What the hell else–“ I mean, you have one thing that’s like gonna magically help your li–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –like your boring sad life ’cause you live in whatever year and there’s nothing else to do.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. I just light candles and–

Christine: Except play chess. [chuckles] Jesus Christ.

Em: Um, so that was the main foreshadowing and that like the f–

Christine: See your friends once every 20 years, and then, by the way, they fuck you right over.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Jesus, what a life.

Em: Yeah. So far I’m learning that they should have lived further in the woods, um, and not– and they should have had less hobbies because talking to their friends was the problem.

Christine: And maybe that wasn’t even the son. Maybe that was someone else coming. Like I–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: You never know.

Em: Well, so that’s actually–

Christine: Sorry, now I’m spiraling.

Em: No, that’s, that’s a great point. Not to be the English teacher all of a sudden, but a– I did read quite a few analyses of this–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –book of– just to like see if I was getting the full picture. And a lot of the discussion is often, well, what if the monkey’s paw was just like a silly story that this guy told about on his travels? And he threw it in a fire for the gimmick, and like it was just–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –some fucking paw that he picked up on the way–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and there was never magic. It just happened to be that the next day their son died.

Christine: Ooh! That’s my favorite kind of story.

Em: They just happened to get compensation for that that equaled how much they needed.

Christine: It’s like–

Em: And then–

Christine: It’s like the human nature of like sensing that means more than it does and–

Em: Yeah. And it’s–

Christine: –trying to meddle in your own life. Oh my god.

Em: And then someone knocked on the door, and they weren’t answering, so they just left. Like it could have– It could be that the monkey’s paw was never anything.

Christine: Wow.

Em: Um, as for symbolism–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –the number three is a big thing in this.

Christine: Mm.

Em: I did not see anywhere why three had to fucking matter, but there is at least a thread in the story of like there are three members in the family.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: The story is broken into three parts. Three different people can make three different wishes. Uh, the man that showed up to tell them about Herbert’s death hesitated three times before going to the door. Mrs. White tells Mr. White to bring Herbert back and make the wish three times.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: A lot of threes.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And apparently we care about that, but I have no fucking clue why.

Christine: Yeah, we do.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Yeah. The trinity, all that good stuff.

Em: Oh, the tr– See, this is what I need here, the religious element. Okay.

Christine: Listen, I didn’t get a five on that thing for nothing, you know. Every now and then, I bring it back out.

Em: I, I would also– I could see why this probably didn’t get mentioned when we were younger because of the times, but now in 2026, I feel it is important to note that a lot of more modern analyses will tell you that “The Monkey’s Paw” is, say it with me, racist. Because, uh, it came out during a time– This was written about a British family–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and this monkey’s paw was from India.

Christine: “Magic from India,” yeah. Jesus. [chuckles]

Em: And it was basically– It was a time in history when, um, the British really were actually very racist of India. Um, I don’t know where we stand today. I don’t know where we stood before, but in this moment, they were notably racist to India.

Christine: Well, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah.

Em: And the fact that the not so subtle messaging in the story is “do not trust India” because a cursed paw from dangerous India will eventually harm the British people.

Christine: Yeah. I mean, it is like a very British story, right? You’ve got like they go down to get the cursed King Tut remains, and they– everything– follows a curse back home. And it’s like, “Well, maybe if you’re a shitty person and you’re like raping and robbing people’s lands and like making them your own and like naming them after yourself, then like maybe, um, it’s a you problem and not like the gross-ass like monkey paw you picked up in India.” You know what I mean? Like– You’re just–

Em: That was literally part of some of the discussions I saw where they were like, “Well, maybe this is just, um, like what was coming your way anyway.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Or if you wanna make it spooky, maybe it was just karma in general and has nothing to do with like the fact that someone you don’t know who’s a different color than you is a practitioner.

Christine: Yeah, I like that– I totally like that angle of like, “Oh my gosh, this mon– this foreign monkey paw cursed me,” and it’s like– I like that angle you mentioned of like, “Hey, it could have just me-meant nothing, and like you created– your life just kind of created this set of circumstances, and now you’re blaming like this foreign–“ Yeah, that’s a really good point, Em.

Em: Well, also let’s note that the family’s name is fucking White.

Christine: [chuckles] Oh, yeah. I did– I almost said at the beginning, and I went, “I hope we come back to that ’cause that’s wild.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So okay. So it’s pretty– I see why English teachers teach this. It’s like a very, um– I can see the– I can see this.

Em: Yeah. So the, the White family and tragedy befalls them from entertaining Indian practices and, and–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –the– and India is so dangerous, of course. So–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Anyway, that is something that hopefully gets noted these days, and there’s a l– I’m go– being very quick about that. Like I, I was reading like essays about the conflict going on at the time in 1902 or the Victorian era with Britain and India. It was a lot. So I’m gonna end on some fun facts, which is that in– This did come out in 1902 by, shockingly, a comedy writer, um–

Christine: Mm?

Em: –and he was just dabbling in something new, and then this is the work that he’s most famous for now, which is like such a weird kick in the crotch.

Christine: I’m convinced com-comedy people have so– I mean, that’s– We turn dark shit into humor, so I, I feel like it’s a natural pr– like progression. ’Cause I do feel like it sounds weird, but I think it makes sense for like comedy people–

Em: I think it makes sense.

Christine: –to go into horror. Like I mean, what’s his name? Uh, from Key & Peele, uh, and like his horror mo– You know what I mean?

Em: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Christine: Like Jordan Peele.

Em: He, uh– Well, I agree with you. I just think it’s also funny that like, “Man, all I wanna know– I wanna be known for comedy,” and now it’s just–

Christine: Well, maybe he didn’t. Maybe he was just a humor writer, and he’s like, “Someday, I’ll break into the real writing.”

Em: Mm!

Christine: And maybe he finally did, you know. I don’t think humor writing–

Em: Maybe.

Christine: –was necessarily like the tiptop in the Victorian era, but–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –you know.

Em: Sure. No, it was uh, it was first published in Harper’s Monthly Magazine, fun fact.

Christine: Love it.

Em: And then he came out with his own collection of works, which I think the rest of them were comedy, and this was just like the standalone horror one.

Christine: [laughs] I love that.

Em: Um, but the collection was called The Lady of the Barge. And, um–

Christine: Oh my. I feel like I’ve heard of that.

Em: Well, it was one of the other stories in there, but for some reason, he named the collection after that one. Maybe that was the one–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –he wanted to be known for, and he should’ve just called it “The Monkey’s Paw.”

Christine: He’s like, “This one’s a banger.”

Em: Uh, also, “The Monkey’s Paw,” fun fact, has been turned into– I saw 20, but probably over like 30 or 40, stage, film, and radio adaptations–

Christine: Oh, wow.

Em: –including The Alfred Hitchcock Hour had an episode.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, Orson Welles Great Mysteries had an episode. The Simpsons has done an episode.

Christine: Tell me there’s a Twilight Zone.

Em: Um, and my favorite was, Are You Afraid of the Dark?. They did an episode of this.

Christine: Ah, of course. Oh, well, you know what? I think I saw that.

Em: Did you?

Christine: I think that’s where my understanding of The M– and like I get– got a very, let’s say, warped perspective of what that story is–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –because I watched it on Nick at Nite or whatever, or whatever that was on.

Em: Yes, Nick at Nite, yeah. And, um, yeah, I also remember it. I remember The Simpsons episode, too, but I mainly remember Are You Afraid of the Dark?. And apparently, “The Monkey’s Paw” was the main influence for Stephen King’s Pet Sematary.

Christine: Ah! Oh, that’s actually–

Em: ’Cause like–

Christine: –one of my next couple books I wanna read.

Em: Oh, really? Yeah–

Christine: ’Cause I finally read It, so now I’m on to Pet Sematary.

Em: I think all I know about Pet Sematary is that like your– the dog dies, and then he wants his dog back, and then I think it– I think it’s like kinda–

Christine: I literally don’t know anything. It’s like when I start–

Em: I think it’s a zombie thing. I’m not sure. But–

Christine: That's my, that’s my vibe. And I, I, I read It with like zero understanding except there’s a clown. And now I’m like–

Em: Wow.

Christine: –“Holy fuck.” [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: There’s– Holy fuck, yeah.

Em: When like parents used to like put books in the freezer when they were scared, I feel like It was a big book–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –that they did that with.

Christine: Ooh, and then you open it, and there’s like “Ahh!” clown on the front.

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Well, anyway, and then I was gonna end with just the moral of this, apparently, is “be careful what you wish for,” but I’m gonna, um, add to that, and it’s apparently “don’t trust India.” That was the– That was the moral then.

Christine: Yeah, right, yeah.

Em: And we have now–

Christine: Yeah, don’t, uh–

Em: –fl– in a very flowery way just changed it to a simple “be careful what you wish for.”

Christine: Well, I almost feel like it’s like an– it’s like a s– a satirical comedy on like – oh, wait, this is gonna sound like I’m making it up, but I’m not – on colonialism. Like I really think it sounds–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –like the writer was writing it to be like t– like, um, subversive a little bit. Like that’s what it feels like to me. Or was he like writing it to be like, “Go, white people”?

Em: No, I, I don’t know.

Christine: ’Cause it feels so obvious–

Em: I–

Christine: –the symbolism that I’m like, “There’s no way he wasn’t like trying to make a statement,” but maybe he wasn’t. Maybe he was just like–

Em: I think you’re on to something. It does– It, it was written in a way where it could have been taken either way. But I could see it just being a, a political commentary.

Christine: And if you’re like a humor co– If you’re like a humor writer, you would be doing something like satirical, like dark comedy or like, you know–

Em: That is a great point, Christine.

Christine: Like the, like the, the, the Jonathan Swift or whatever the one, um, you know, the hilarious comedy, the, the– A Modest Proposal where we– where you eat babies.

Em: Nope.

Christine: You should have paid a little attention in high school ’cause this part was in–

Em: [chuckles] Should’ve.

Christine: This part was interesting. Um, it’s like a, it’s like a satirical essay from 17– 1729 um, which suggests that the Irish, who, uh, were going through a, a famine, eat their own children, but it was like a satire, but it was written–

Em: I see.

Christine: –as like, “This is how we’ll solve this problem.” And it’s called A Modest Proposal. Um–

Em: Interesting. I, I’m gonna just take a shot in the dark and say, yes, it’s a political commentary because that– It’s– It could believably that. It’s a very short read, by the way. It’s like– It, it’s a very short read if you wanted to read it.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: It, it took me half an hour.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Which means–

Christine: On two point speed.

Em: –it’ll take you ten minutes. [chuckles]

Christine: Just kidding. [laughs]

Em: Um, but it was, it was a short read. I feel like, um, if you would– I would love to hear your take after you’ve read it if you want, but, um, I’m just gonna–

Christine: Yeah, I’m curious.

Em: –say yes because that sounds like it would– that it would be– it would be that.

Christine: Yeah. Inter– I don’t know also. I mean, I’ll read it, and I’ll see what I think. This is based on the Em’sNotes that I’m giving my commentary.

Em: Yes.

Christine: So maybe I should actually read it first, but.

Em: You know, no, I– I remember when I first saw one article, and it said, “Oh, this is racist.” And I went, “How can that be?” And then I went, “Oh my. Of course.”

Christine: [chuckles] “How can that be?” [chuckles] Yeah.

Em: I was like, I was like– ’Cause I, I didn’t remember anything about it being British or Indian or–

Christine: I just hear “monkey’s paw,” and I’m like, “Oh boy, a cursed monkey paw. Well, let’s go.”

Em: That's what I heard. I thought it was like, “Oh, you just found it from some creepy place,” but apparently, the creepy place was India, so.

Christine: Oh, I just immediately–

Em: Sorry, India, by the way.

Christine: I immediately assumed racism. I was like, where else would you– some, some uh, quote unquote, “savage nation,” you know.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like where else would you get something like that?

Em: That’s exactly how– You’re totally right. That’s exactly how I feel like they wanted it to come across. But, but to be fair, they they didn’t mention– Like the reason I’m hesitant about saying yes to it being a political commentary–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –is because it was mentioned so quickly and then never talked about again. It’s not like it was a running theme to like keep talking about it.

Christine: Right, it feels almost like– Yeah, good point. Like it’s not about necessarily where it came from, um.

Em: But it, it was like, “Oh, our friend has spent 20 years in India,” and then he went, “Oh, I– This– Some practitioner gave this to me.”

Christine: Yeah, I understand.

Em: And that was kind of all that was mentioned.

Christine: And that would have been context that made sense at that time. Yeah, yeah.

Em: But I also– I really like– I, I want yours to be the right thing. [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles] I mean, listen. I, I don’t even, I don’t even– I’m gonna read it. I gotta read it.

Em: I don’t know. People in the comments, please–

Christine: It’s my homework.

Em: –uh, if you know any more, I would like to know more about this. Um, but uh, of course everything’s racist.

Christine: I love a good shor-short story.

Em: Of course everything’s fucking racist.

Christine: Well, yeah, that’s part of it.

Em: That’s the, the main moral.

Christine: I mean, that’s unfortunately part of it. Yeah. Um, very cool, Em. I like your, uh, I like your retellings, especially when I forget the actual story, which is almost always, so good job.

Em: Well, good. I, I was nervous that, um– I don’t know. It feels like I’m cheating a little bit by telling a story– I don’t know. I don’t know why it feels weird.

Christine: You cheated enough in high school. Why do you care now? We both did.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I mean, well, I don’t know that we cheated. We didn’t really just do our work though, so.

Em: I did not do my work.

Christine: At least you’re doing your work this time.

Em: No, that’s nice of you to say ’cause I was– when I was doing the notes– Doing the notes? Not even doing the notes, I was just reading the story, and I was like, “I feel weird that I’m not doing more.”

Christine: Listen, you couldn’t read the story in high school, and now here you are equipped to read it and do a whole book report on it.

Em: Thank you. That’s also–

Christine: To like a lot of people.

Em: Thank you. Well–

Christine: And then discuss like the racial implications. I feel like you should be like patting yourself on the back.

Em: Thank you. Although it was a very– There, there was one– Let me see if I can even find it.

Christine: It’s a lot of work you’ve put in, a lot of thought.

Em: If I can find the link, I will. There w– I mean, there was a few of them. If you type in “Monkey’s Paw racial implications,” I’m sure it’ll come up. But there was like–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: There was a few, um, like journals written about it, so.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Thought that was– It was interesting.

Christine: Interesting. I’m gonna have to look into that. Well, very good work. Um, A+ from me, um.

Em: Thank you.

Christine: Nailed it. You got a– What were we saying earlier? You got a on– uh, I said you should tell my mom you got a one.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: Because in Germany, that’s an A. And I’ll somehow swap with your mom and tell– I don’t know. I’ll figure it out.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I’ll say in Germany an F is a good thing.

Em: F means “fantastic.”

Christine: It means “fabulous.” That’s right. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: Uh, good job. Okay, I’m gonna go pee real quick and then, um–

Em: Yappy Hour.

Christine: Yappy Hour.

Em: Did you say you have a sticker book?

Christine: No.

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: Oh, I meant like I have all these books like that are like anti-antiquarian sticker books–

Em: I see.

Christine: –and they have like all the different, you know. Um–

Em: I was gonna say if you wanted to show us your sticker book we could do that, but–

Christine: Oh, no, I don’t have that quite ready yet. Um–

Em: Is there anything you’d like to show us?

Christine: Mm.

Em: No?

Christine: I’ve been doing a lot of tarot, but– I could pull you a tarot card and practice.

Em: Okay.

Christine: I’ve been doing readings for my brother. Um, or I could do– I don’t know. I’ll think about it. I’ll pee, and I’ll think about it.

Em: Okay. [chuckles]

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Christine’s Story – Debby and Mark Constantino

Christine: Hello. We are back from Potato Talk, our weekly [chuckles] bonus show–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –where we discuss which types of potatoes we’ve had this week, and Em has had some of the most delicious looking ones. So–

Em: I have.

Christine: –uh, if you’re interested in any of that for some godforsaken reason, um– Actually, you are missing out if you don’t see this picture of this fucking potato. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –you can go to our bonus Yappy Hour, which it should be in your feed. And now it’s time for my story. It felt–

Em: Oh–

Christine: It felt, it felt inevitable. It felt inevitable. It felt like the only sort of next step. And I’m going to cover the murder-suicide of Debby and Mark Constantino today.

Em: [gasps] I don’t know why I’m smiling, and I can’t take it off my face. That’s horrible. That’s horrible.

Christine: Yeah, it’s–

Em: But I am so happy that you understood the assignment.

Christine: We had to do it. We had to do it because, you know, we’ve d– we’ve done enough of– And at the beginning of this episode, you said, “We’re done with Zak Bagans,” and I thought, “That’s what you think, my friend. That’s what you think.”

Em: I feel so silly. I don’t know why I d–

Christine: That’s what you think.

Em: I, I think I thought like, “Oh, I’ll, I’ll suggest you cover it, but then like maybe in like a couple months or something.” Like it didn’t occur to me.

Christine: [sighs] It sort of took three times for me to go– It took your three-part episode for me to go, “Oh, I should cover that.” Like it took me a while.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I’m slow on the uptake every now and then, but like I finally got it. Um, I’m pretty excited about this one because it is so relevant to, uh, your topics as well, and I feel like, um, it’s, it’s just– It’s a dark one, folks. Okay?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Uh, so Mark and Debby– By the way, do you– Like I didn’t have much knowledge of these people before, uh, s– even during the Zak Bagans years.

Em: I knew that they were Zak’s friends, and I knew that they showed up sometimes.

Christine: Okay, okay. That’s about all I knew too. So I’ll give you some backstory. Mark and Debby Constantino, uh– And if you’re unfamiliar with who they are, don’t worry, we’ll get to it. Um–

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: We'll get to it. Mark and Debby Constantino were married in 1989. Debby herself had a lifelong connection to the paranormal. She was raised in a haunted house. She felt like she had a gift to speak with the dead. Um, meanwhile, Mark was a self-described skeptic who said he had never experienced anything paranormal until he met Debby. And that kind of like opened his eyes to the whole world of the paranormal.

Em: Okay. Okay.

Christine: So together they launched a website called “Spirits Speak,” and they marketed themselves to the public as experts, most specifically with electronic voice phenomena. And you know, you think about this was like years ago–

Em: 2004 or something?

Christine: –deca– Yeah, exactly. Like before there were like apps for this and– You know, so they were kind of the f– some of the foremost experts on EVP usage. Um, and they would utilize audio recorders and noise generators to, to capture EVPs. And they actually ended up teaching a like a college course or–

Em: Oh?

Christine: –or like a college seminar on ghost hunting, um–

Em: Interesting.

Christine: –with their EVP knowledge. So this was like a big deal. And this is how Zak Bagans kind of [clicks tongue] clocked them.

Em: Sure. Okay.

Christine: ’Cause you know he’s got eyes on everything in the paranormal world. He’s got the finger on the pulse.

Em: Which is why I’m so grateful he hasn’t threatened anything with us yet.

Christine: I– You know, it feels like we’re still on the periphery though. ’Cause it bums me out. I’m like, does–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –does he not even care, you know? Obviously not.

Em: Like, come on. Aren’t we special? No. I, um– So I was gonna ask, do you– And maybe you don’t have this information, but do you think they were actually like audio tech experts? Or were they just like people who discovered the phrase “EVP” before anyone else and just taught people how to use a digital recorder in empty houses?

Christine: They got extremely good evidence–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –and they had like their own content that they would make where they were getting like very clear EVPs. Um, and so they– I wouldn’t necessarily say they were like licensed in anything or like had like certificates, but they had a very good reputation for–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –being like well-versed in the EVP world and to the point that Zak Bagans would ask them to come help with EVP sessions like on his cases.

Em: So that’s how they got in touch and all that.

Christine: And that’s how they got in touch. And, um, he brought them on as recurring guest investigators and EVP specialists, um, starting in ’08. And I bet you like– Again, ’cause that tech was like relatively new in like, I don’t know, ’08. Like it would be help– You can’t just necessarily google everything yet, um–

Em: Right, right.

Christine: –as easily as you can.

Em: And if you know somebody like you’re gonna just as– just trust them.

Christine: Yeah, and especially if they’re like charming and like good personalities for television. Like it just kind of made sense, I think.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, and the two of them being a couple was like, of course, a selling point, right? ’Cause it’s like, oh, this like power couple, and they’re these ghost hunter power couple.

Em: 100%.

Christine: Um, there are rumors, which like I wanna be so clear are rumors, but there are rumors about like, oh, Zak was kind of like flirting with her and like–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –you know, she was a pretty woman, and like maybe he got too close. I don’t kn– And like most of the episodes that feature them have been deleted.

Em: I never got that vibe.

Christine: Yeah. I just– I don’t know enough about it. Like I, I feel like that’s kind of a wild thing to say unless you have proof, right? Like I, I don’t know. I wouldn’t say– Let’s not like create fictitious stories, but whatever.

Em: Sure.

Christine: Uh, so listen. r/GhostAdventures is a really– Like it’s a tough place, so that’s all– I’ll leave you with that.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um, anyway, they have this website, “Spirits Speak.” Uh, Zak and the Ghost Adventures crew, um, take notice of them, bring them on for a few episodes, and then it becomes like a recurring guest episode. Um, they provided audio analysis for several high-profile televi-televised lockdowns, um, including the Old Idaho Penitentiary. I didn’t even remember that was in the list. Oh my god.

Em: Get out. Oh, I– And you know, I feel so silly. I literally just walked around there and didn’t even think about like, “I wonder if Zak’s been here.” Like, it didn’t even occur to me.

Christine: Of course. Wow.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Wow.

Em: Maybe I need to watch that tonight just so I can be like, “Oh, I was there.”

Christine: I was gonna say. Yeah, well, you could–

Em: Maybe that’s why I felt so safe in the woman’s ward because I have a feeling they did not touch the woman’s ward on their investigation.

Christine: Right, fair point. And like–

Em: [chuckles] I don’t know.

Christine: I mean, listen, it’s like a bunch of bros and her going there, you know, and then she ends up being the victim. It’s like– Ugh, what a terrible full circle that is.

Em: I mean– Yeah, yeah. Oof.

Christine: Eugh.

Em: Interesting, interesting. Okay.

Christine: Yeah. So including that– the Old Idaho Penitentiary episode, the Trans-Allegheny Lunatic Asylum, and the Washoe Club.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Do you know much about the Washoe Club?

Em: [sighs] I feel like I’ve covered it, and if I haven’t, uh, it’s on my–

Christine: You haven’t, and I looked it up.

Em: Oh, then I’ll do that. That’ll be my next episode. That’s easy.

Christine: It’s gotta be because I–

Em: It’s a big one.

Christine: –watched some– I made sure not to watch all.

Em: Okay. It– I–

Christine: But I–

Em: I–

Christine: –like watched enough for this story.

Em: I just wrote it down.

Christine: And then I was like, “Well, now Em needs to do it.” [laughs]

Em: It’s handled. It’s handled.

Christine: We’re just like tagging–

Em: Now, now we know what ne– what next week is. You know I–

Christine: What’s the– Pass the baton?

Em: You know what I can’t stand about the butterfly effect that is Zak Bagans, our, our big tattooed butterfly?

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Is that every time– Like I thought it was gonna be one goddamn episode and– Not even. I thought it was gonna be– This was about a completely–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: This was about a random hotel.

Christine: It wasn’t even about him. Yeah.

Em: Wasn’t about him. It was about a random hotel. Then he showed up, and then he got like three fucking episodes out of me.

Christine: In his fucking denim jacket.

Em: And now this is your story, and now I’m doing the Washoe Club.

Christine: Man. And by the way, like he’s like surrounding himself– Like I can’t get away either because–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –the Aaron hitman scandal or whatever.

Em: I know.

Christine: And then like now thi– I mean, it’s– or this first, then the hitman scandals. It’s like, Jesus like he has trauma and like c– true crime.

Em: He would, he would say “cursed,” I imagine.

Christine: In– Uh-huh. Yeah, he would. He would say a lot of things. Okay, so we’re gonna get to the Washoe Club. So from the outside, like I said, they were sort of like a paranormal power couple. And because Zak was kind of giving them this like platform, um, that was bigger than what they had before, people were starting to like really get attached to them. And to this day, they– like people are really, really sad about what happened obviously, for obvious reasons, but also because they just felt really like drawn to th-these p– two people as investigators and TV personalities. Um, they had a lot of fans. They toured the country, lecturing at paranormal conferences. They even co-taught, like I said, a class on ghost hunting at Truckee Meadows Community College in 2012. Um, however, behind the scenes, um, which we now know, uh, but didn’t quite realize at the time, is that their marriage was plagued by a long escalating history of domestic violence.

Em: Right.

Christine: Um, very, very toxic back and forth breaking up. Um, I’ll get to the specifics, but domestic violence on both sides. Just a lot of, a lot of uh, a lot of– just a hard, hard relationship.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So the “Mustang Ranch” episode is probably the most– besides Washoe Club, I think, the most like w– the episode most referenced when discussing the couple, especially on Reddit, because there was a weird moment on this episode–

Em: Oh?

Christine: –that fans talk about a lot. Um, there is this point in the episode– They’re at this brothel, like this former brothel.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And Mark aggressively pressures Debby to take her shirt off–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –and she like doesn’t wanna do it. And he like gets really aggressive and forceful about it and is like, “That’s how we’re gonna get the ghost. Like you have to take your shirt off.” Um, and people kind of looking back are like, “Oh god. Like that’s a really big red flag that like–“

Em: Like the signs weren’t just there. The signs were–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –like tattooed onto our eyes, and we didn’t see it.

Christine: A– Right. And there’s another episode people talk about– And again, these have mostly been scrubbed. So like you can find them, but like I didn’t go seeking all of them out. But–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –um, people talk about an episode where Mark also like kept saying, “We should have sex in here ’cause that’ll like draw the ghosts in,” and she was like, “I don’t know.” And he was like just really–

Em: At some, at some point– And I’m– This– I’m not trying to blame anybody. However, like w– cameramen, hello? No one was gonna say anything? Like everyone–

Christine: Aren’t they the cameramen? Aren’t they like their own cameramen? Isn’t that their whole thing?

Em: Yeah. No one was being a bit– an upstander to that, were they?

Christine: Well, and also like putting that in the end– in the show.

Em: Yeah. Like–

Christine: But like– But then look, like we have this fucking thing with, with Frankie– with, with, uh, Frankie Paul. Or what’s her name?

Em: The, the Frank– the– Ruby Franke.

Christine: No, not Ruby Franke. Sorry. The, the Mormon housewife. Um–

Em: Oh, I am unfamiliar.

Christine: She was gonna be the Bachelorette, and then like they’re like, “Oh, this video surfaced of her like abusing– physically abusing and assaulting, um, her husband–”

Em: Oh.

Christine: “–at the time,” but like that came out years ago. So it’s like, we already knew about that. Why are you–

Em: Sure.

Christine: Like ABC thought they could kind of like just skirt that and no one would care? And now they’re like, “Oh my god.” So they canceled The Bachelorette ’cause people were upset. It’s like–

Em: That’s what that’s about.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I did not know.

Christine: Um, yeah. It’s just kind of like, what, what are we doing? Like let’s– Somebody– Nobody caught any of this? You know what I mean? Like where did this get through production where you’re like, “Oh, he’s–“

Em: I wonder–

Christine: “–literally demanding she take her clothes off.” But then I’m like the people who watch this and like the vibe is just so different. And it was 2008, you know? And I hate to be that guy, but think about–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –like YouTube back then. People were literally doing blackface, and nobody was like fucking batting an eye. Like–

Em: Well, also 2008–

Christine: –it was just a crazy time.

Em: I, I know he would hate this and I’m so sorry to throw his name in, but I often call like the 2008 or 2010 era like the Bo Burnham era where like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –shock value humor was the thing.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And so like it was– The thing was shock value.

Christine: You wanted to be edgy. You wanted to be edgy.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like that was the whole thing. Um–

Em: Not to– It was just like– It was so normalized at the time, and I, I– And part of me like hopes that like maybe an editor kept it in hoping someone would notice.

Christine: No way.

Em: Like I’m trying to think of something. But you’re totally right that it would just be like none o– nobody paid atten– I mean, and that’s so sad. That just shows like how like– See something, say something. And s– how do you not see that in front of you?

Christine: But like people didn’t see it. But nobody saw it. Like I mean, I’m– We could have watched that episode and probably– what are we gonna say, you know?

Em: Yeah. It’s so sad.

Christine: It’s sort of like, it’s sort of like– [sighs] Yeah, see something, say something, but it’s also like they’re a couple and like maybe they’re having an argument. I don’t know. It’s like– It looks bad now, but it’s like at that time like there was no– nobody watching like knew that they had a really tumultuous relationship. Like nobody knew that, right?

Em: You know, it’s interesting that you s– to hear about this after I covered–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –like how Zak is like so weird about those episodes airing–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –or like how he was acting so weird. He was like so hesitant to even mention Mark’s name. I could see him just having like unbelievable guilt in hindsight like of just being like–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –“I was in that fucking room and didn’t say anything,” you know, and like–

Christine: Oh, he–

Em: I–

Christine: Oh, in that room? No, he was not in that, that– It was like one of those camera captures where they were like in the bordello by themselves, and he’s like, “Take off your sh–“

Em: I’m saying as a producer who gets to like approve clips and stuff–

Christine: Oh, he saw it. Yeah.

Em: –like he like probably didn’t even see it at the time. And it’s–

Christine: Oh, yeah. He probably was like, “Ha-ha, that’s funny,” you know, and now it’s like, “Mm, is it funny though?”

Em: Yeah, I could see why he–

Christine: Right, like–

Em: –just he– I mean, I’m– I know nothing–

Christine: But like–

Em: –but I would assume he feels not too great about that now.

Christine: I, I don’t know. I don’t know if he thinks about it at all. I have no clue. Um–

Em: Sorry, I didn’t mean to go off on that tangent there, but–

Christine: No, you’re good. It was just– You can kind of look back and see some of these like kind of red flag moments where you’re like, “Ooh, he’s a lot more controlling than we realized.” It just like in con– out of context didn’t necessarily click.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um, so the domestic abuse escalated in 2015. In March, Debby was arrested after a fight over finances where she scratched Mark and allegedly sliced his arm with a kitchen knife. Um–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –she was charged with domestic violence, but she never had her day in court, so that’s why we’re saying alleged. She never– Yeah, she never got her day in court because something very terrible and tragic happened, uh, only months later. So just see– six weeks before the final tragedy, Mark and, uh, the couple’s– which I didn’t know this at all that this part happened. Their adult daughter, Raquel, and Mark, Raquel’s dad/her husband– Debby’s husband, kidnapped Debby, like ambushed her. This is August 2015, six weeks before the murder. According to court documents, they pulled Debby out of a car by her neck, dragged her inside a house, and beat her until her nose was broken and bleeding.

Em: What the fuck?

Christine: Mark then strangled her until she nearly passed out. And so– Like, this was six weeks. This is where I start to get really just a–

Em: Ill.

Christine: Yeah. Mark was booked on suspicion of first-degree kidnapping and domestic battery by strangulation. Um, and Raquel was also arrested, uh, for her participation. And kidnapping is generally a “no-bail” offense, but a local judge granted them bail. Uh, he got bail at $40,000, and she got bail at $30,000. And because they were allows– allowed to use a bond, they only had to pay like a small fraction of it, so they were like immediately released.

Em: Wow.

Christine: They were ordered to stay away from Debby, who finalized a restraining order against Mark one week before her murder.

Em: And, uh, because you said the whole like she scratched his arm at one point–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –so are both of them being violent with each other? Or was like–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Okay. I didn’t know if one was like maybe–

Christine: She was arrested in March for assaulting him. Then he and his daughter kidnapped her, then they went to pr– ja-jai– They were arrested, but then they got out on bail, bond.

Em: I did not know if maybe it was like reactive abuse where like she only hurt them in retaliation or–

Christine: Well, we don’t know.

Em: We don’t–

Christine: That’s why it’s alleged.

Em: We don’t know. Okay.

Christine: ’Cause she just never got to give of context, you know.

Em: Sure. Sure.

Christine: So it very well could be. Yeah. Um, so– And people also speculate there were a lot of drugs involved and, and when the daughter gets involved, it’s like that– then rumors start going like all over. So we don’t necessarily know like the full context of it. Um, but I just wanna add like I was reading this earlier, and I just was so enraged by the restraining order section that– And [chuckles] I have to laugh because a few days ago, I asked Blaise a question, and he said something like, “Oh, well, that book that you’re obsessed with um, The Gift of Fear,” and I’m like, “I’m not obsessed with that book.” He’s like, “Yes, you are,” and I’m like, “No. Maybe I am.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I don’t know. I mean, I feel like I never talk about it anymore, but like I g–

Em: There was a time period where it was like very, it was like very relevant to a lot of stuff you’re talking about.

Christine: I definitely was– Yeah, it was definitely talked about it for a while, and then I think like there were times where you would say like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –“Oh, Christine’s favorite book,” or whatever, you know. And so I think like it just became cemented because I was like, “Wait, what?” But now I’m like, “Yeah, I guess I did talk about it a lot.” But so, of course, now after fucking– I have to eat my words ’cause I have a little, uh, a little excerpt for you here.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: This is an excerpt, um, from, of course, where else–

Em: Your favorite book?

Christine: –the Newsletter– No, the Newsletter of Critical Risk Management at the Medical College of Wisconsin.

Em: Oh, [chuckles] okay.

Christine: Yeah. Oh, you didn’t get– You didn’t guess that?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um, it’s about risk assessment in healthcare, uh, and the use of, uh– and like suggesting– the value of suggesting people get strain– restraining orders versus suggesting they not get a restraining order and kind of the pros and cons. And here is a– an excerpt from this, um, this – what do you call it – this newsletter.

Em: Okay.

Christine: “In The Gift of Fear, Gavin de Becker writes, ‘Restraining orders are most effective on the reasonable person who has a limited emotional investment. In other words, they work best on the person least likely to be violent anyway.’”

Em: Mm.

Christine: “One category of such a person is the ‘naive pursuer’ – people in this category are generally rational but unaware of the inappropriateness of their behavior. Because the naive pursuer does not intend harm (and does not become angry when rejected), if an explicit statement to stop does not end the behavior, a restraining order could be an effective tool to stop the unwanted behavior...”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: “By contrast, if the goal is to prevent a murder, the civil restraining order is probably the wrong strategy. However, that is exactly the strategy commonly employed by healthcare facilities that may fail to recognize“ – and police – “that may fail to recognize a restraining order is a rejection, and rejection is a very common trigger to violence.”

Em: Sure.

Christine: “Further, restraining orders turn what was a very private rejection into a public one.”

Em: Sure. It’s very much like–

Christine: And I’m like, “Duh, people.”

Em: It’s like an embarrassed man is a dangerous man, is–

Christine: Like exactly.

Em: Yeah. Or however the phrase goes, but it’s– Yeah. It’s like you are publicly shaming him, and therefore, he will react.

Christine: It’s like the–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It's like, what do you think’s gonna happen? This guy’s already tried to strangle you to death and then you get a restra– you s– te– make her get a restraining order? Like that’s gonna work? I just really–

Em: Yeah. It’s like this guy already breaks rules.

Christine: Pisses me off that’s that–

Em: W-what i– What’s paper gonna do?

Christine: The violent, uh– The violence like– It was already illegal to do that.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It didn’t stop him the first time. Now it’s illegal on paper too, like– Whatever. I’m just annoyed. Okay.

Em: [chuckles] I get it.

Christine: Um, so let’s get back to this. Uh, the event took place Tuesday, September 22, 2015. Around 6:30 a.m., a woman returned home to her northwest Reno house to find her 55-year-old male roommate, James Anderson, shot dead in the hallway. Did you know about this part?

Em: No.

Christine: There was another person killed.

Em: Had no clue.

Christine: Me neither. She immediately called the police, terrified, because her other roommate, Debby Constantino, was missing. Police pinged Debby’s cell phone, tracing it across town to her daughter, Raquel Constantino’s, apartment at the Courtside Garden complex in Sparks, Nevada.

Em: Oh, shit.

Christine: When officers arrived around 11 a.m. and knocked on the door, Mark Constantino fired several shots at them. They did not return fire. They locked down the surrounding area, including a nearby high school. And through the barricaded door, they could hear Mark yelling, “Give me 15 minutes to gather my thoughts or I’ll kill her.”

Em: Oh my fucking god.

Christine: Hostage negotiators tried for over two hours to get Mark to surrender, having their final contact with him at approximately 1:15 p.m. Um, and he, he just stopped responding after, after a while. Shortly after, officers heard a single gunshot. The SWAT team used explosives to breach the apartment door and found both Mark and Debby dead from fatal gunshot wounds. He had killed her and then shot himself afterward.

Em: Wow.

Christine: So the day after the tragedy, um, Ghost Adventures host Zak Bagans, we know him well–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –posted on Twitter, calling it a “very tragic dark day.” Um, and then following the event, the Travel Channel and streaming platforms quietly removed several episodes that prominently featured Mark and Debby, including, of course, Mustang Ranch and the Goldfield Hotel investigations.

Em: And do you know if that– because I, I didn’t understand my– From what I was finding online, it was that Zak requested them be removed, but do you know if there was like, like legally–

Christine: You know–

Em: –they felt like they should remove it?

Christine: I actually don’t know that.

Em: Okay.

Christine: I tried to find out if there was like a personal reason, a legal reason–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –and it just said that they were removed and taken down and–

Em: My best understanding was that Zak requested it, but I, I don’t know if that’s true or not.

Christine: I don’t either. I’m not sure.

Em: Hm.

Christine: I have no clue. Um, so within the paranormal community, right, there, of course, was a lot of, a lot of grief and a lot of sadness, um, and a lot of shock. Like, you know, you see these people every now and then. They’ve become like characters you like and, and watch–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and all of a sudden, you find out just this horrible, horrible darkness that lived in their marriage, relationship you had no clue about. Um, so there was unfortunately a bit of a disturbing narrative that still continues surrounding this, which is that some fans suggest that Mark’s actions were caused by “demons” or dark entities that attached because he wasn’t ghost hunting safely enough.

Em: Yawn.

Christine: Um, yeah. This is like something that’s a big no for me, dog. Like I, I think let’s not excuse the behavior by saying like “a demon did it,” you know? Um–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and he was like a documented abuser, domestic abuser, and like he made a human decision to murder his wife.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So I just don’t find much– Like and there is discourse about that online. Like people will literally be like, “Well, he had so many dark attachments. Like what– How could he have–“ And it’s like, no, no, no.

Em: I’m good.

Christine: Mm-mmm. No thanks. No, he’s not a victim in this. Uh, sorry. You know, like–

Em: And even, even if there was a storyline where like he had never acted this way before and had no history and then all this sudden this happened, we should still argue a, a case of mental illness way before demons.

Christine: Yeah. I just feel like there’s some very, let’s just say, like patterns that are very easily accessible–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –where you can see like, “Hey, the most obvious thing is that this is the thing that happens all the time every day over and over again.”

Em: De-demons are, um–

Christine: Demons are not–

Em: –I think at the bottom of the ladder on–

Christine: Yeah, I would say it’s not necessarily my–

Em: –what we should be prioritizing.

Christine: Right. It’s not my first theory, you know.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, now, whether he was a terrible person and some dark energy attached to him and like made him even feel more fucking terrible, I don’t know. Okay? But like he’s–

Em: Yeah, maybe demons are sprinkled into the recipe, but, you know–

Christine: Right? But like– Sorry–

Em: –doesn’t make it the full recipe.

Christine: It’s a him, it’s a him problem.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, so the show generated, as in Ghost Adventures, also generated some controversy when the crew returned to Virginia City, Nevada. I don’t know if you knew that existed.

Em: [chuckles] I think I did. Is that where Goldfield Hotel is?

Christine: It’s actually where the Washoe Club is.

Em: Oh, shit. Nevada City. I swear to god that’s–

Christine: Maybe there–

Em: Oh, I’m thinking Virginia City in Nevada. I think that’s where Goldfield is.

Christine: Oh no, that is what it is. Sorry. Virginia City, Nevada.

Em: Hm. They certainly–

Christine: Maybe–

Em: You know what it was? It’s ’cause they mentioned– It was in the original 2004 documentary. They say Virginia City–

Christine: That’s right.

Em: –and I feel like everything else in Virginia City were those two weeks where they didn’t find anything, and then they found the Goldfield Hotel.

Christine: Because they actually mention the documentary in this like–

Em: Oh.

Christine: And I’m like, “I thought the documentary was about a different place,” but yeah. Okay. So that does make sense.

Em: No, i–

Christine: So they’re in the same town then.

Em: Same town where they did all of the investigations, and only Goldfield–

Christine: Gotcha.

Em: –gave them–

Christine: Gotcha.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Okay. Well, I’d be s– I’m so curious to hear you cover this because it was–

Em: I can’t wait. I love, I love when–

Christine: –spooky. Like–

Em: –when a suggestion comes up like this.

Christine: What I watched was kinda, kinda of creepy, I’ll be honest. I mean, it was also like ridiculous, but it was also spooky.

Em: [chuckles] Okay.

Christine: Um, okay, so the Ghost Adventures show, uh, created a bit of controversy when they returned to Virginia City in 2018 for “The Washoe Club: Final Chapter.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: D-during the lockdown, they specifically called out to Mark and Debby, uh, claiming to capture an EVP of Debby’s voice. Um, some fans saw it as like a tribute, like, you know, she– they were the EVP experts. Like if anyone was gonna want to be contacted via EVP, it would be her.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: But then, of course, like it’s also really tough to reconcile like this domestic violence murder victim like–

Em: Yep.

Christine: – being– making your show– you know, being part of your television show. Like even though they’re friends, you know. Like I just– I didn’t– I, I can see why there was quite a bit of controversy online about this–

Em: Oh, yeah.

Christine: –and people debating. And, um, they did get some creepy EVPs, and Aaron and Zak just like break down. Like they just start sobbing about, about–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –missing, missing them. They’re just crying, and it– I mean, it’s really horrible. Um, it’s just really, it’s just really, really, really sad. And like I’m not– I don’t think the way they did it– Like I was expecting to go in there and be horrified about like their lack of tact–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –or whatever, but like I didn’t feel like it was as– maybe it’s just me, but I didn’t feel it was as disrespectful– Like if you were murdered or something, like not to– I’m not being glib. I’m serious. Like I would probably try to talk to you through a–

Em: Sure.

Christine: And I’m not– I mean, just because I’m like, “Oh, that’s what we would do,” you know?

Em: It’s what I– First of all, it’s what I demand. Let’s start there.

Christine: Exactly.

Em: But, but no, I understand what you’re saying.

Christine: So I feel like there’s kind of a– to me at least, a little bit of a gray area there. But, um, I just wanna add here like– because this is kind of where– I think the main point that I wanna just kind of shut down all the like de-demonic theories with is, um, the unfortunate patterns I referenced earlier. Um, it’s bad. Okay, folks? So uh, the current stats are as follows. According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, over one in three women and one in four men in the US have experienced rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner. If you or someone you know is dealing with domestic abuse, confidential help is available 24/7. You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE or text the word “START” to 88788. Um, if it is an active emer– uh, emergency, excuse me, um, always dial 911 first.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Now, “The Washoe Club: Final Chapter.” I watched some of this because I just had to see what the deal was. Um, it opens with a walking monologue, and I haven’t watched Ghost Adventures in a while. I don’t know how many open with like a walking– I guess they kind of all do.

Em: I don’t know. Let’s, let’s see how this goes.

Christine: Okay, so it opens with a walking monologue, and he’s kind of like this.

Em: Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got it. [chuckles]

Christine: [mimicking Zak Bagans] “This is a very special episode, ladies and gentlemen. We are returning to a place where we haven’t been for about nine years–“

Em: Mm.

Christine: “–a place that has left its mark on me, both physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally.” How does he do it? [over-enunciating] Emotionally.

Em: Yeah. Yeah. It’s– Every syllable is its own journey.

Christine: [over-enunciating] Emotionally.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: [mimicking Zak Bagans] “We are returning to the Washoe Club in Virginia City. This is the Washoe Club: Final Chapter.” Um, and like I just love– This is such a like a petty grammar thing, but like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –I love that he says [chuckles], “left its mark both–“ and then he lists like five things.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like “both physically–“ and then he like lists five things. I’m like, okay.

Em: That’s like when with the– with Final Chapter Goldfield Hotel, he said like, “I took this real personal,” and I’m like, “personally?”

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It’s like, “Okay, buddy. Whatever.” Um, another quote I wanted to point out from the trailer, from the teaser trailer I watched on Facebook before watching the intro. Um, quote, [mimicking Zak Bagans] “I’ve been getting messages and dreams and visions of coming back here.” And like honestly, when I watched that and I ended up watching him tell the caretaker or the manager or whoever um, and he says, “I’ve been getting these dreams, messages that I feel are being sent or broadcasted to me from the spirits that are here.” And I’m not saying that’s impossible. And I’m saying this like completely not throwing shade. Again, not being glib. Like this also feels like PTSD.

Em: Yeah, totally.

Christine: Like, “I’m having dreams of this place where my two friends and I would spend a lot of time, and I feel like I just wanted to come back here, and like–“

Em: It sounds like he’s like mid-grief.

Christine: Right. And like then he like sobs in one of the rooms, and it’s like, okay– And I’m not saying– Listen, maybe the ghosts are calling him back, but I, I just– I was very kind of like taken aback when he said like, “I’ve been get– having dreams about coming here and like–“ I’m like, “Of course you have, dude.”

Em: I mean, I–

Christine: “like of course. Something extremely traumatic happened.”

Em: I feel like– I don’t know if– I mean, it’s certainly not his style, and I don’t even know if he would have been– I don’t know what the right word is. I don’t know if he would have been aware of– I don’t– I’m, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna be more crass about it. But I, I feel like it would have been a really wonderful opportunity for him to have a conversation with his audience about the overlap of mental illness being, um, ignored for the conversations about paranormal stuff.

Christine: Mm.

Em: It would have been– That would have been a really good time for him to be like, “A lot of people claim that there’s paranormal stuff going on, but there’s mental health crises or–“

Christine: You know, I will say he–

Em: “–there’s something else going on and–“

Christine: –didn’t discuss them and what happened at all, so I don’t know. Maybe you’ll see somewhere like– Have you seen him talk about like what happened? Because he did not mention it at all.

Em: I feel like in the Goldfield Hotel one, he like s– I mean, he literally was so scared to say their names, but in hindsight I’m like was he scared to say their names or legally was he not supposed to be fucking talking about them? And he was acting like he just couldn’t–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –talk about it because he was so overwhelmed with feelings.

Christine: I mean, I will say like you can tell they’re– like they’re really not feeling good. Like– I mean, they’re like in a bad place, mentally, emotionally. Like they’re st-struggling.

Em: It’s weird that they even– I mean, maybe that was– that could have been, again, in a conversation about mental health or like even–

Christine: That’s–

Em: –a conversation about just like grieving your friends. I mean, if you’re fucking Zak Bagans and your whole job is death and the afterlife, this is a great time to talk about your own experiences losing people.

Christine: And apparently, Billy, it was hi– So Billy actually spent like several investigations with those two there.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like he like had a very personal– at this Washoe Club. Like he was like, “We spent so much time here,” and he starts– He’s like, “I can’t do this.” And then of course, Zak goes– [chuckles] He’s like, [mimicking Zak Bagans] “Well, it’s important for people to see,” and he’s like zooming in on his face.

Em: Ugh.

Christine: He’s like, “I wanna stop filming or something.” He’s like, “Well, it’s important for people to see.” I’m like, “You’re such a dick.” [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. It’s like– It’s such a weird– He’s such an anomaly because like–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –I– ’Cause you could have used that–

Christine: I don’t think he’s a sociopath. I really don’t. Like I don’t think that.

Em: No, I think he’s just– He, he knows clout when he sees it, and it–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –he becomes tunnel visioned about the clout.

Christine: He likes the cache to, to– He loves it. He collects it.

Em: I feel like though he could have– First of all, if he– I’m not saying he wasn’t grieving his family and friends or, or his friends, but like it’s shocking to me that he didn’t think like, “Maybe can we just record in like two weeks– or can we film in two weeks f– Like can we go to a different location? Like this is– It’s too soon.”

Christine: Well, it was, it was years later.

Em: Oh, it was years later. Oh.

Christine: Oh, yeah. It was, uh–

Em: You did say that, didn’t you?

Christine: Um, I believe so. Let me see.

Em: [sucks in breath] I didn’t remember that part. Um, I don’t know. I feel like there could have been a conversation there about–

Christine: In 2018–

Em: –at the very least being like–

Christine: Oh, okay. Sorry, it was three–

Em: –“Let’s–“

Christine: Sorry, I ha– I lagged. My bad.

Em: No, go ahead. What were you saying?

Christine: Um, it was three years later, so it was 2018.

Em: I feel like I– Maybe it’s because I just know it’s what you and I would have done and so I’m like so like persistent about it, but I feel like there’s– there should have at least been one clip that stayed in about like, “This is gonna be a really heavy episode for us, so let’s not get confused about like what’s paranormal–“

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: “–and what’s a, a– us grieving.”

Christine: Well, I will say he does give like a, uh, like mental health like– He says like, “Here’s the phone number,” you know, “this is something–“ I think he does.

Em: Okay. Well, great.

Christine: I think he does make a statement. I mean, you watch the whole thing and tell me. I was kind of like– I didn’t wanna get too into it ’cause I wanted to make sure you got like the full story yourself.

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: –but like I did see him at the end saying– giving a phone number of– for– so maybe he does. I’m not sure though. You'll have to update me.

Em: I can’t wait. Thank you for the, [chuckles] the, the research–

Christine: Oh, of course.

Em: –that’s now available to me. But no, I’ll, I’ll come back with my own take on it, I guess. Sorry.

Christine: I can’t wait for you to see this part, which was my favorite. Um, [chuckles] they– He’s like always himself. In the intro when he’s talking to this guy–

Em: [chuckles] “He’s always himself.” That should be our quote about him.

Christine: It’s like even in grief, right? Like he’s always– He’s just– He’s always himself. He– The guy goes, “Yeah, well, there’s not a day that goes by that some tour group doesn’t bring up Ghost Adventures.” And Zak goes like, “I know.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] And I’m like, “You’re such a dick.”

Em: “You’re so welcome.” Yeah.

Christine: And he’s like, “I know.” And then he’s like, “Yeah, I love that.” And then they like have these, which you’ll see on the show, but they have these like pans of, um, over these like glass museum glass-top cases, and it literally says, “Zak’s shirt – worn on inve–“ And he’s like, “Yeah, it’s just, you know, it’s cool that you have like my shirt on display.” And I’m like, first of all–

Em: You know, that man–

Christine: –the fact that he took that shirt off.

Em: Yes. I was gonna say, there’s no way they actually said, “Can we please have your shirt?” He just got naked in front of them.

Christine: Took– for– No doubt.

Em: And then gifted it to them and said, “You’re welcome.”

Christine: And we better go back to them and find the episode. He goes, “Yeah, you have my shirt.” And then, of course, I took a picture. It says, “Zak’s shirt from Ghost Adventures. While wearing this shirt–“ by the way, in like one of those fucking crazy fonts. “While wearing this shirt, Zak discovered that the Washoe Club was indeed haunted.” Okay. And then–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –it’s just folded in a glass-top case. And then the next thing is, uh, Aaron’s visor. He had a visor that said, “Virginia City,” this really tacky, uh, tourist visor, and that’s also in the case.

Em: So when we were at the Queen Mary, we should have just taken our pants off and just left them there.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: And then they should have en-encased them in glass. Like that– that’s how ridiculous this is.

Christine: Uh, I recall–

Em: That’s how stupid this is.

Christine: I recall you trying to get me to take my pants off so I would go in that bathroom where the demon was.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I said, “I’m not taking my pants off–“

Em: Hm.

Christine: “–for you or anyone in that bathroom,” so sorry, nice try.

Em: You know, had I known that it was gonna be encased in glass, I might have fought a little harder. But, um–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But that’s how stupid this sounds.

Christine: Sorry.

Em: It’s like, “Oh, and here are his Q-tips he used in the bathroom.” It’s like–

Christine: It’s just abs– I mean, literally, it’s absurd. Like, really.

Em: Like at the very least, it should be like, these– this is the equipment they used.

Christine: Also like a– there is a camera in there–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –but it’s like the shirt is definitely– the shirt and the hat– and like the hat says Virginia City, so like presumably, he got it like that day– like Aaron got it that day. I’m like, “What are we doing here? Like this is weird, guys.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um– Oh! Oh, wait. I forgot. Wait, I did watch part of this episode, and I– this– Maybe I watched more than I remembered. Um–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –I think I was a little bit, uh, sleepy on some, some gummies, some THC gummies. Um– Mood. Have you heard of it, guys?

Em: Mood? [laughs]

Christine: It’s a great brand. Uh, okay, there is this line where they are talking to Debby, and I was watching this because I’m like, “Okay, this is where they’re actually communicating with the victi– or allegedly communicating with the victims of the story I’m telling,” so I’m like paying close attention.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And you just hear a– like a female voice, and they’re really emotional, and they go, “That’s Debby.” Cut. Smash cut. “I’m in the candy factory right now, and I’m going to make turtles,” and it’s Zak. And he acts a fool–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: –for the next probably 15 minutes. He and Aaron act like they– I mean, you know how they act. They act like-

Em: He’s always himself.

Christine: He’s always himself. Hah! H-A-H.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like literally, he– And then the whole time, he’s going, “It doesn’t look like a turtle. I don’t get it. It doesn’t look like a turtle.” And she’s like, “Well, there’s the head,” and he’s like, “I don’t see any legs. Where’s the tail?” And I’m like, “Will you stop? Like use your inside voice, first of all.” And then he gives this thing to the kid. Oh my god. This kid walks in, and Zak goes– I forgot I wrote all this down. I was having like a complete meltdown last night. Um, to be fair, I looked at the turtles. I was like, “They don’t look like turtles to me either.” So for what it’s worth.

Em: [chuckles] So they’re actually kind of right.

Christine: So actually, Zak’s like on to something. Um, so he tells these customers they’re about to eat the best turtles they’ve ever eaten. If you don’t know what this is, it’s like, I think, like a, a–

Em: Chocolate caramel cluster kind of thing.

Christine: Yeah, yeah. And I think they put it on– Whatever, it doesn’t matter. Pretzel or something. I don’t know. Um, he tells the customers they’re about to eat the best turtles they’ve ever eaten because he made them. And the li– He like hands it to this little boy who’s probably like eight. And he goes, “I made this,” and the boy goes, “Did you make them or did you just pour the chocolate on them?”

Em: That’s a good boy.

Christine: And Aaron fucking loses his mind, and he’s like, “This kid!” Like he’s like, “This kid is fucking hilarious,” whatever. Like this kid is clearly just punking Zak. And Zak is just like, “I did make it!” And then Billy says, “Yeah, Zak. How did you make it? What temperature did you cook it at?” And then literally just like art, art.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And I now understand why you retell these. It, it is art. Uh, he says–

Em: Thank you for saying that because sometimes–

Christine: It’s true.

Em: –I get so in my head that I’m like I–

Christine: Oh, I don’t– Yeah.

Em: –I’m so off topic, but it’s so–

Christine: I realized, I realized like I’m like, I wrote this down thinking, “Eh, probably won’t get to that.” Now I’m like, “This is my favorite part.”

Em: No, I– I’m glad you said that because I– it makes me feel better about my own retellings.

Christine: I mean, listen, it’s just you ha– Like once you watch it, you’re like, “Someone else has to hear about– This is fucking insane.”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] “Some people have to know.”

Christine: “Someone else has to know.” He literally– So this is all happening. He looks at the camera, like Office style, ’cause this kid’s like, “Did you really make it or did you just pour chocolate on it?” And he’s like– And then they’re all like mocking him, right? And they’re like, “Oh, what temperature did you cook–?” And as it’s like fading in, you hear the voiceover, like the traditional Zachary voiceover, and it goes, [mimicking Zak Bagans] “It is so good to know that I have the support of my team as I try to broaden my skillset.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And then like ends he– [laughs] And I went, “Now, that’s a good play, my friend.”

Em: That’s an episode that didn’t get a lot of paranormal content–

Christine: Well, I think–

Em: –and we’re just filling in the gaps.

Christine: I stopped after that. I think there’s more.

Em: Oh?

Christine: Like, they go back. That was where I stopped because I was like, “Oh–“

Em: What a–

Christine: I got wrapped into the candy store. But then I was like, “Oh, this is the story Em might cover.” So like–

Em: That was very nice of you.

Christine: –I, I’m quitting at the ca–– But Em, you’ve gotta watch the candy store thing.

Em: Okay. [laughs]

Christine: I’m sorry. I– Like I know I explained it very well.

Em: You did. And I, I thought I could like skirt never having to see it–

Christine: No. [sighs] I’m sorry.

Em: –but unfortunately.

Christine: Especially the part where they go, “That’s Debby... I’m here at this chocolate factory.” And I’m like–

Em: That–

Christine: –“This motherfucker.”

Em: I can’t wait to mention that ’cause I’m gonna be like, “What the fuck? Isn’t this like so important to you?”

Christine: “This motherfucker.” Anyway, it’s like, uh– It’s just bananas. So thank you, everyone, for listening to me kind of like, um, invade, trespass into Em’s territory for a little while. It was very thrilling. I loved watching Ghost Adventures for work. I felt very, uh–

Em: It’s a good time.

Christine: It’s not like it’s the first time I’ve done that, but you know, it’s, it’s always a pleasure. It’s always a treat.

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: No, thank you. I– And thank you for the topic, ’cause now I don’t have to spend, you know, X amount of time–

Christine: Do you know– Well, do you know–

Em: –looking for a topic.

Christine: Thank you for the topic because it took me three episodes to kind of pick up on what you were laying down, and then I went, “Ohh!”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So um, yeah, if you have any more, you have to be very explicit, and you have to remind me repeatedly ’cause otherwise I will forget.

Em: Understood.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Well, uh, what do you– Do you have any plans this week? Anything coming up?

Christine: I don’t even know what day it is, Em. I’m completely lost. I’ve lost it. Oh, Leona spring break’s finally, finally, finally, finally over.

Em: It sounded like a, a nightmare a little bit.

Christine: It’s just– It’s so fun, and then by like 6 p.m., you’re like, “I can’t–“

Em: Just burnt out.

Christine: “–be– exi– I can’t exist right now. Like I wanna crawl into a hole and just never speak.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Like it’s just like you get so sim– at least I do, like stim– overstimulated.

Em: Oh, yeah.

Christine: But no, we’ve had a wonderful time. So much crafting. Um, but then I fall behind on all my work, right? Like we had a really fun time, but I just feel like this is like catchup week–

Em: Gotcha.

Christine: –so probably nothing too exciting. Yeah. What about you?

Em: Uh, well, I was just telling you during the Yappy Hour, I did not realize how close to time I was to–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: I’ve had a, a trip planned with my mom for so long, and I’ve been hearing like, “Oh, yeah, in April. Oh, yeah, in April. Oh, yeah, in April.” And then I just kept–

Christine: It feels far away, and then you– suddenly a week. It’s in a week.

Em: And now, and now, all of a sudden, I’m like, I’m like, “Oh, fuck. Like I– I’m going back on another fucking plane next week?” I’m like, “This is like not what I signed up for.”

Christine: When do you–

Em: But it’s literally what I signed up for.

Christine: –head out?

Em: Like in like I guess a week and a half. Um, but I’m very excited. So I’m going to Jersey and New York, and I’m, I’m doing that– I’ve obviously been to both of them before, but my mom and I are doing a, an early Mother’s Day/her birthday trip.

Christine: Cute.

Em: Um, but I told her I wanted to do certain things in Jersey that I know she does not care for. And so um, I’m going in a day early, and I’m gonna go take a tour of the Jersey Shore house.

Christine: [gasps] She’s not interested in that? I guess not.

Em: I know. Well, she, she put in a good fight. She’s like, “No, no, we could– we– that–“ She keeps calling it Snooki’s house. She’s like, “Are you gonna go to Snooki’s house, Snooki’s house?”

Christine: Okay. So she’d be– she’s more on board than like my mother who’d be like, “Oh, a lighthouse?” And I’d be like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –“Alright. Like, you’re like not even in the ballpark.”

Em: She was willing to do it for me, but I was like, honestly–

Christine: No. It– No.

Em: –it’s gonna be so embarrassing just knowing you’re watching me react to things you have no idea about, and if you knew about them, you’d judge me for reacting so favorably because it was such a milestone in my life.

Christine: You don’t wanna have to temper your authentic self.

Em: Yeah. Yeah. ’Cause Jersey Shore was– is so problematic, but talk about like, you know, that era of shock value and like it was–

Christine: Oh, yeah. Train wreck city.

Em: Yeah. And I kind of just wanna like–

Christine: Gym tan laundry.

Em: –sit in the train wreck for a second, so.

Christine: I mean, you– It’s a nostalgia, like you know.

Em: [sighs] I’m very excited. So, um, that’s the only thing that I really have officially on the docket, and the rest of it I think is we’re with family. So, um–

Christine: Nice.

Em: Anyway, I– It’s, it’s next week, but I– It felt like a month, a month or two aw– or away–

Christine: I know.

Em: –and so now all of a sudden, I’m like, “Oh, fuck.”

Christine: Spring– Usually I feel like the winter– like that late winter lasts so fucking long–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –and it was just suddenly like spring, and I was like, “It’s almost Easter basically.”

Em: Yes.

Christine: Um–

Em: I, I was, I was a little floored.

Christine: –it’s crazy.

Em: So I’m, I’m a little overwhelmed, and I’m about to have to go like figure out like my travel plans ’cause now I have to figure out dates and all that. But, um, that’s what I’m up to, and next time I record with you might be in [in a Jersey accent] Jersey. I don’t know.

Christine: Oh! Ooh-la-la. I can’t wait to see whatever hotel art or–

Em: Hotel art or–

Christine: –family heirlooms is in the background.

Em: –fa– It’ll probably be a fa-family heirloom. I heard that we’re staying with people, so.

Christine: Oh. Oh, do it from Snooki’s house.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Can you imagine? Actually, is it–

Christine: Please!

Em: Is it insane if we got someone to call the Jersey Shore house for me and be like, “Can I film a podcast in the–”

Christine: Okay, but no, we don’t even have to do that. You just have to like record like a bit–

Em: Oh!

Christine: –like whatever it is ver– uh, horizontally, then send it to me, and I’ll do like a–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –like pretend you’re just talking to me, and then I’ll, I’ll edit it, splice it, and it’ll look like we’re recording at the Jersey Shore house.

Em: Let’s start now. I can’t believe we’re in the Jersey Shore house right now. This is crazy.

Christine: Well, you have to actually have it on video.

Em: It’ll be green screen. I don’t know. I don’t know. I’ll mouth it.

Christine: [laughs] You’re gonna be in it.

Em: We’ll figure it out.

Christine: That’s the whole point. The green screen?

Em: I don’t know. I’m overwhelmed. I’m so scared. Okay.

Christine: I could green screen myself at the Snooki’s house if I wanted to too.

Em: [laughs] I’m so, I’m so stressed out. Okay, you’re right. I’m very excited. I’m just overwhelmed. Very excited.

Christine: You should just pretend you’re vlogging. You should be like, “So–“ I don’t know.

Em: And then I’ll also just film–

Christine: You can–

Em: –like some like B-roll of like an empty room, so you can put your face on it.

Christine: And then I– [laughs]

Em: And then it’s, and then it’s like we’re next to each other.

Christine: I was gonna say that I’ll be like, “Oh, yeah, thanks. Okay, today’s episode Em is showing me around, um, s– the Jersey Shore house.”

Em: Yes.

Christine: And we can kind of pretend, you know. Like it’ll be good.

Em: It’ll be a good time. Okay, cool.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: We’ll, we’ll reenact a Jersey Shore clip.

Christine: Oh, okay. I don’t know many of those, but I could try.

Em: You just say, [in a Jersey accent] “Who wrote the note? You twos.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: That’s what you say.

Christine: “You twos.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: I can say that for sure.

Em: “Yous twos.”

Christine: Alright.

Em: Uh, okay. So anyway, very excited. Um, but we’ll see everybody next week.

Christine: Sounds good.

Em: And–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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