E478 Yesterday's Mail and Salad Days

TOPICS: THE OLD WASHOE CLUB PT. 1, ANTHONY GIGNAC AKA THE PRINCE OF FRAUD

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It's episode 478 and we're looking like yesterday's mail from the good ol' salad days! This week Em takes us west again for the tale of the Old Washoe Club. Will we ever leave Nevada? Then Christine covers the fascinating case of Anthony Gignac aka the Prince of Fraud. Christine is SO sorry she skipped over the second part of her series on Dorothy Arnold (she speaks on this in the intro). Dorothy will be back with us next week. And who else wants to queer signal with reiki and watercolors?? And that's why we drink!

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Transcript

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Christine: Hey, everyone. Christine here popping in real quick, um, with my tail between my legs to apologize. Uh, yet again, I’ve done this thing where I s– I, I write all the notes for part two, and then in my head, I’ve told the story because I was so invested in the notes and I’ve told part one that I forget to actually do part two. Um, what happened this time is Dorothy Arnold – Part One happened. Um, we had a recording scheduled. Um, Em got sick. We moved to Friday, and with that Friday shift, I jumped ahead with my notes without thinking, and I skipped. I skipped Tuesday’s notes. And I’m so sorry because, as a listener, that has got to be infuriating and frustrating to be jumping right to the next– part two and be like, “Wait, are they just like punking me? Did they forget?” All that to say, um, I apologize. I’m embarrassed. Um, I feel really, uh, “space-casey,” and um, you know, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna keep making excuses, so I’m gonna, I’m gonna just apologize and say we’re gonna, we’re gonna do this next week. Let’s get me out of here. Let’s get the vaudeville cane and pull me off stage. So lots of love to everybody out there. I’m, I’m sorry again. No, no good excuse. Just, um, just an explanation and an apology. Alright. Love you all so much, and, um, Dorothy will be back with us next week. Okay, bye.

[intro music]

Em: I know. We added it up in our class, and we now officially know 500 words in sign.

Christine: That’s–

Em: Killer.

Christine: –kickass. That’s my dream. That’s so cool.

Em: “Bra” is actually kind of boring. It’s just bam. 

[Em holds their hands, palms towards them and fingers pointing down, in front of the middle of their chest and then slides each out to their respective side.]

Christine: Bam. 

[Christine follows Em, making the same movements.]

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Oh, I mean, but I like that. Like I feel like I’ll remember that.

Em: Yeah. You know, what’s underwear, which is interesting?

Christine: Uh-oh. What?

[Em holds their hand in front of their chin, palm towards them, and bends and unbends their fingers repeatedly.]

Christine: Oh god.

Em: On the chin.

[Christine does the same motions, trying the sign out.]

Christine: I wonder why that is.

Em: Yeah. What’s going on there?

Christine: What’s going on there?

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: I don’t know. Maybe that means–

[Christine repeats the sign again.]

Em: I– Yeah, I thought the same thing. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Oh, I forgot this is an audio medium. Um–

Em: [chuckles] You’re right. Luckily, people who don’t have eyes or use them, um, for our episode is, uh, gonna miss that.

Christine: I know, I know, I know what a smart thing we did. We said, “What should our intro about our p– on our podcast be today? How about s– we do sign language?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “That’ll work. That’ll be really fun to listen to probably.”

Em: [sighs] No. And by the way–

Christine: But I am impressed. I like– I really– That’s one of my, uh, like life interests, I think, down the line–

Em: What?

Christine: –to learn sign language.

Em: Oh! Well–

Christine: Sorry. About the s– not bra and this thing–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –that we did with our weird chin beard, but um, you know, other than that, I’m really impressed.

Em: Well, thank you. I also– I’ve wanted to do it for a long time, and, um, every person I said in front of– I was like, “Oh, I’m gonna take a sign language class,” they’re like, “Oh, I’ve always thought about doing that.” And I’m like–

Christine: Yeah, it’s like one of those I feel almost universal things maybe.

Em: Yeah. Well, that’s– I ended up.

Christine: And you actually did it.

Em: I’m now in my sign language class with three different friends. And it was all because every single person– I said, “Oh, I’m gonna take this class,” they’re like, “Oh, I’ve always wanted to.”

Christine: I know.

Em: And I’m like, “Well, if you do it with me, then we can be practice buddies.”

Christine: That’s so good.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And you said you learned 500 words now. You know 5–

Em: I’ve so far learned 500 words, and–

Christine: That’s–

Em: –it’s halfway through the program, so I guess, by the end, I’ll know 1,000 words.

Christine: –awesome.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: You might know more–

Em: So that means–

Christine: –once you start like– maybe it– I don’t know how it works.

Em: I don’t know how it worked either, but–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –I think that makes me like, um, milestone-wise like a two-year-old or something. What’s 1,000 words?

Christine: But the– I don’t fucking know. [laughs]

Em: You know when it’s like, “Oh, well, they’re supposed to know this many words.”

Christine: The second I no longer had a two-year-old, like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –the information–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –that like felt like so urgent and like f-front of mind and like pressing–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –just evaporated. It was incredible. It was like– Today, my friend said like, “Oh, she– Like my baby rolled over on her stomach,” and I’m like, “Is that good or bad? Like I don’t know.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like I know how old the baby is, but I’m like, are they supposed to do that in bed or is that like later? Like–

Em: That's crazy.

Christine: –I just feel like you just lose the concept of like– I mean, maybe it’s just me. Maybe–

Em: Wait a–

Christine: –I just was like traumatized out of it. That happens. I d-detach.

Em: Or maybe you’re like you’re back to being people like, like a two-year-old-free person again. And I’m like, “Well, I don’t know.”

Christine: No, I think that’s more what it is. Like it feels like, “Oh, I’m in the four-year-old game now, people. If we wanna talk light-up shoes and like all that, I’m ready.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “But, um–“

Em: What’s the next milestone for a five-year-old? Like kneecaps or something? Or–

Christine: Kneecaps? [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, we’re, we’re waiting for her kneecaps to come in.

Em: There should be a kneecap fairy.

Christine: We’re gonna have a huge party. Um, there should not be ’cause the concept of kneecaps has always freaked me out so unbelievably terribly. I just don’t like to think about them running loosey-goosey floating in there.

Em: I know. Their li– their little noodle legs.

Christine: Oh, it makes me kinda wanna– I wanna die about that.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That makes me feel really bad. So no, we’re not doing that um, but maybe– Milestone, I don’t know. Um, kindergarten? I don’t know. I mean, she can write her name and all that good stuff, and–

Em: That's awesome.

Christine: –she can write all her letters and– I’m just, you know– She’s just– I’m just very proud of her.

Em: That’s awesome.

Christine: Wow. I love her so much. Um–

Em: That’s very cute.

Christine: She and I have been doing a lot of crafting together.

Em: What’s your favorite craft you’ve done? ’Cause you’ve mentioned the crafting a few times now–

Christine: Oh!

[Christine holds up a sheet of paper with a drawing on it.]

Em: –so I gotta know.

Christine: We’ve started watercolor–

Em: Did you bring show-and-tell?

Christine: Well, I– Actually, Em, I wasn’t even gonna show-and-tell it, but I was coloring ’cause your audio and camera we-weren’t working.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So I was coloring before, and I was like– and I just forgot that this was on my lap. I’m trying to show it, but anyway.

[Christine holds up the paper again. It’s painted a light pink, and it has thin black brocade-like designs on it.]

Em: That's beautiful.

Christine: Well, we’ve just been color– uh, doing watercolor. I went– This is why I drink this week, real quick. I’ll pop it in–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –’cause I went to a really fun bachelorette party, just for one night. It was Jeri from Ladies & Tangents. Um, it was super cool ’cause I came on the night where everybody was inside, and nobody was going anywhere–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and I was like, “Thank god.” Um, and so we did– It was like a “bring your Roman Empire” presentation, like what’s your Roman Empire, right? And so mine was Mall World. Um, Jeri’s sister did a really fun one which was like, uh, the astrology of this weekend, and it was like predictions.

Em: Cool.

Christine: Like she had done it in the past, and I was like, “Oh, that’s so clever.” So there were a lot of fun ones. Um, I would say like if you’ve already had a bachelorette party and like– I know I have, and like we’ve kind of– The party scene, like it was so great and fun and awesome– And they went out the night before and went like hard, so don’t get me wrong. But I think like getting there and seeing just this beautiful cabin with like all this food and like clearly all these like nurturing, caring people who brought like so much food and drink, and everybody contributed. I mean, I brought my fucking alcohol recovery things, but– [laughs]

Em: Good for you.

Christine: –so that was my contribution. Um, but like, you know, everyone brought like tarot cards or whatever, and there were like little crafts and stuff. And they had this cool runner across the table, and Jeri’s, um, co-host on For Better and Worse podcast– By the way, shout-out. They’re on our network now too. Um, she set the whole thing up, and she put this big like watercolor tablecloth and then put a bunch of like individual watercolor like kits with like brushes–

Em: Oh, cool.

Christine: –and all this and water cups all over, and you could just sit down and like color on the tablecloth while you’re like getting to know people and chatting. And at the end, she like gave me one, and I got home and picked up some paper, and I’ve just like– Every single day, I just sit down and just like– I mean, I don’t know what I’m doing, but like–

Em: That’s kind of the point though, I think.

Christine: –I’m just kinda scribbling. Yeah, it’s very zen–

Em: It is.

Christine: –and then I, and then I like doodle on top of it. I don’t know if, you know, where you can even see that, but yeah, that–

[Christine holds up the drawing again.]

Em: I think that’s the coolest way to do it though. I’ve always been– A lot of my TikTok videos are–

Christine: That’s what’s so fun for me, yeah.

Em: A lot of my TikToks are watercolor and then drawing something on top of it, and then it’s the background.

Christine: Oh, it’s like so satisfying.

Em: It looks so good every time.

Christine: And I always thought like, “Oh, I can’t do stuff like that,” but it’s like, oh, you literally– Like Leona does it. I mean, it’s like you get to a point where you’re like, “Oh, it doesn’t really matter what it looks like. Like–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “–it’s just really relaxing,” and I’m trying to finally kind of just be more, you know, creative and like present. So anyway, shout-out to them for even introducing me. I don’t think I ever would have tried watercolors otherwise, and now it’s like all I do during my like off-time. It’s, it’s, it’s really fun. So, um, pick it up– pick up a little kit. They’re really simple. And, and by the way, you don’t have to clean it up. Okay, well, you probably should, but like you don’t have to because the paints don’t dry.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like it’s watercolor.

Em: Sure, sure.

Christine: So it like– You can set it out and leave it and then like come to– back to it. And for me, as someone with very, very intense OC– uh, ADHD and OCD [chuckles], uh, like I will not– Like a messy art project, it’s gonna last weeks on the table. I’m never gonna find time to clean it up. So–

Em: I understand.

Christine: Anyway, that’s why I drink this week. Um, I just drank my, uh, my thirsty rat water. And Em, tell– te– do tell, why do you drink this week? I will finally shut up.

Em: No, I was gonna say earlier my ASL thing, but I, I– it came, came out quicker than I expected to, but I have officially said– It was a very small thing, but I did accidentally do my very first ASL conversation–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –without needing help, which was very fun.

Christine: Well, the fact that it was accidental makes it even more like impressive. It just kind of happened. What was it?

Em: Yeah. Well, I was wearing a BU sweatshirt, and I guess the teacher came over to me, um, when we– when she wasn’t teaching. We do like a game of telephone at the end of every game. And while it– I was waiting for it to be my turn. She came over and talked to me and asked if I went to BU and what year I graduated, and, uh, I told her what year, and then she said her sister got her PhD nearby, and then I asked what her s–

Christine: Nearby at Harvard.

Em: That’s what I thought at first, but–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –I said, “Oh, what did your sister get her PhD in?” And she said that she actually went to Brandeis, and I said, “Oh, my girlfriend went to Brandeis–“

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “–and she got her master’s there.” And then I said, “I got my master’s at BU,” and she asked what I got my master’s in, and I said TV.

Christine: Jesus. You said all this in sign?

Em: And I– All in sign.

Christine: That’s amazing.

Em: I was literally– I was like, “Ah!”

Christine: That’s ama– That’s fucking amazing.

Em: Thank you. And then also, um, the, the only thing I needed help with was I asked her– I said, “I’m sorry, can you repeat yourself?” when she was spelling out Brandeis. ’Cause I was like, “What the fuck are you doing?” [chuckles] I was like–

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah, it was probably so fast.

Em: But other than that, I, I got it all. But it was–

Christine: It’s easier than–

Em: Since we were playing telephone–

Christine: It’s harder than BU, yeah. [chuckles]

Em: Yeah. BU is a lot easier. Um–

Christine: Or BC. [chuckles]

Em: But so, uh, because we were playing telephone, I– it became a thing where I guess everyone was waiting for me to finish my conversation with her so that they could tap on my shoulder s– because it was my turn.

Christine: Oh! [laughs]

Em: So then everyone accidentally was watching me do this whole thing. But it was very cool that I could say–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –that whole combo. Yeah.

Christine: Well, that’s awesome.

Em: Yeah. And then, um, my other reason why I drink this week–

Christine: Mm-hmm?

Em: I’m gonna back away. And for dramatic theatrical reasons–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –I will not be speaking. I’m gonna need you to explain what’s happening.

Christine: [chuckles] Oh, good.

Em: Let’s just say yesterday, I was finally feeling a little better. I’ve been sick all week–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –and I was feeling good enough to go out in public, and I went somewhere.

Christine: Oh god. [laughs] Okay.

Em: Because someone– Let’s just say my calls were heard, and somebody–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –gave me some information. So I need you to describe what’s happening.

Christine: I have a feeling I know.

[Em pushes the camera back from them.]

Christine: Whoa, whoa. Okay. First of all, the way you pushed that but you stayed with the camera, it looked like this cool effect. Because like you came forward with the computer but like the wall went back. It almost looked like the walls were receding from you. So if you ever wanna do a cool little trick, that was awesome.

Em: Thank you.

Christine: Here we go.

Em: Okay.

[Em holds a T-shirt up in front of them. It’s a gray T-shirt with a graphic in the middle that looks like planks of wood nailed together and painted light blue, though the paint is fading. A maroon circle has a vintage logo design for “Knott’s Berry Farm Produce” in the top corner. Underneath in small capital letters, it says “incredible”. Diagonally under “incredible”, going across the planks from the bottom left to top right and written in a vintage ad style, it says “asparagus” with a painting of asparagus across the bottom planks.]

Christine: Oh! Okay.

Em: It’s a new one because the other one was getting ratty.

Christine: Oh, it’s a, oh, it’s a new one. We got the Knott’s Berry Farm asparagus shirt that was so–

Em: Please, please read the detail of the asparagus. What is the– It is, it is what asparagus?

Christine: S– Let me, let me please apologize. Uh, it is the “incredible asparagus” shirt, incredible asparagus. And we got another here. What is this?

[Em holds a different T-shirt up. It’s a purple T-shirt with a graphic in the middle that looks like planks of wood nailed together. A maroon circle has a vintage logo design for “Knott’s Berry Farm Produce” in the top corner. Underneath in small capital letters, it says “tasteful”. Diagonally under “tasteful”, going across the planks from the bottom left to top right and written in a vintage ad style, it says “turnips” with a painting of turnips across the bottom planks.]

Em: Oh–

Christine: This is the taste– “tasteful turnips.” Oh, that’s quite a purple. That is a– That’s a shocking purple. Wow.

[Em holds up another T-shirt. It’s teal with a graphic in the middle that looks like planks of wood nailed together. A maroon circle has a vintage logo design for “Knott’s Berry Farm Produce” in the top corner. Underneath in small capital letters, it says “delicious”. Diagonally under “delicious”, going across the planks from the bottom left to top right and written in a vintage ad style, it says “rhubarb” with a painting of rhubarb across the bottom planks.]

Christine: Okay, we’ve got “delicious rhubarb.” I’m not loving the lack of alliteration, but that’s okay.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: We can work with it. I do love a rhubarb.

Em: Now, here’s the best one.

[Em holds up another shirt. It’s a light gray/green with a graphic in the middle that looks like planks of wood nailed together. A maroon circle has a vintage logo design for “Knott’s Berry Farm Produce” in the top corner. Underneath in small capital letters, it says “amazing”. Diagonally under “amazing”, going across the planks from the bottom left to top right and written in a vintage ad style, it says “artichokes” with a painting of artichokes across the bottom planks.]

Christine: “Amazing artichokes.” now, that, now, that I would wear. That’s the one I’d wear.

Em: And finally, and finally–

[Em holds a gray T-shirt up in front of them. It has a graphic in the middle that looks like planks of wood nailed together with a red diagonal stripe painted from the bottom left corner to the top right. A maroon circle has a vintage logo design for “Knott’s Berry Farm Produce” in the top corner. Underneath in small capital letters, it says “fancy”. Diagonally under “fancy”, going across the planks from the bottom left to top right and written in a vintage ad style, it says “sugar beets” with a painting of beets across the bottom planks.]

Christine: Oh! “Fancy sugar beets.” That’s right. They’re fancy, folks.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Get your fancy sugar beets.

Em: So I spent a shitload of money on t-shirts yesterday.

Christine: So now, can you tell me how this– that–

[Em pulls the camera close to them again.]

Christine: Oh, here we go. Whoa! [chuckles] Zooming back in.

Em: Uh, so I found out that– and maybe this is wrong information, but the only person who was able to help me– Thank you so much. They also put me in contact with like the director of merch, by the way. [chuckles]

Christine: Was this the person who said, “I do merch for–“

Em: No.

Christine: Oh, okay. Someone on Instagram commented like, “Oh, I’ll check in. I do merch but a different kind,” or something. And I was like, “Holy shit.”

Em: Oh, okay. Well, no. Luckily– I did say I was like, “I think in numbers we could all get this together.” Also everybody with, um, eyes on this podcast today, please excuse my hair. I’m getting a haircut after this. Um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I– A bunch of people reached out. I really appreciate all of you. Um, and the information I was given – I do not know how accurate it is, but it’s what I’m working with – is that for the Boysenberry Festival – which–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –is going on right now only, which is why I had to go yesterday – um, is that they bring out a bunch of dead stock and try to sell off what they can, but usually it’s no longer in stores. So that’s–

Christine: Oh, wow. So this was just like it was dead stock that you had to go buy? Oh my god.

Em: So I like really manifested this it seems like.

Christine: Was it on sale?

Em: No. [laughs]

Christine: What the fuck? They didn’t even put it on sale? They’re trying to get rid of it.

Em: And not only that–

Christine: I guess they didn’t need to.

Em: –but the entire collection, two of them no longer exist at all–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and are totally sold out. So I will never have–

Christine: Which–

Em: –the strawberries or the boysenberries.

Christine: Okay, first of all, relax with that attitude. You just said you’d never have any of them, and now you have like a bunch. So let’s fucking–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –tone it down. “I’ll never have anything” is not gonna work here.

Em: You’re right.

Christine: You just said you manifested them all.

Em: You’re right.

Christine: We got two left to manifest. What is it? Uh–

Em: Strawberries, which is a red shirt. And–

Christine: Strawberries. Okay. And boysenberry.

Em: –boysenberry, which is like a periwinkle shirt.

Christine: Well, no wonder that one sold out.

Em: I know.

Christine: That sounds lovely.

Em: It was beautiful. I saw someone wearing it yesterday, and I went, and I went, “Where’d you get that?” And he was like, [in a low, sassy voice] “I got it a few years ago. I wonder if it’s even around.” And I went, “I know it’s not. I fucking know it’s not.”

Christine: Yeah. “First of all, why do you sound like Zak Bagans?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Secondly, give me your shirt. Give me it. Give me it.”

Em: Um, it was– Anyway, I– And the irony of last time when I saw them, I was like, “Oh, I’m not gonna buy all of them. That’s way too much.” But then when they were there today and it’s dead stock and– or yesterday and it’s dead stock, I was like, “Well, I have to now. I al–“

Christine: Last chance.

Em: And on principle because asparagus and I have gone through a lot together, I got a hat.

[Em holds up a gray baseball cap with the same “amazing asparagus” graphic printed on the front.]

Christine: Oh, that’s very cute. Okay.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “Amazing asparagus.” Um, wait, what was the artichoke?

Em: Amazing artichokes. Incredible asparagus.

Christine: Why the fuck do they use the same word? Oh.

Em: Incredible asparagus. Amazing artichokes.

Christine: Oh, I thought it was amazing on both, and I, I was really upset.

Em: [sighs] I have to thank everybody for all of your help or I would have not even known. And also it was in one store at the back of the park. That’s it.

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: Um, so I don’t know how long it’ll be there. If I’m wrong and it’s always there for some reason, it was The Factory Store. But I even asked the person working, and she said, “Oh, they brought it all out for the festival ’cause they’re just trying to clear out merch.” So–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –um, I wish you the best.

Christine: Wow.

Em: And they did not have a lot of sizes left. Although, if they even had like an extra small in strawberry, I’d have been like–

Christine: Who are you even talking to? Nobody wants this shirt except you, Em. You’re literally the– It’s backstock.

Em: You’re wrong. You’re wrong.

Christine: Well, okay–

Em: I guarantee you–

Christine: –maybe you’re an influencer now.

Em: –I inspired at least one person to get an asparagus shirt.

Christine: Yeah, that’s maybe what it is. It’s more like it didn’t hit, then you got it. Now it’s like, oh, everyone wants a piece of that. That makes sense. Sure.

Em: Someone’s gonna want it. And I’m telling you it’s at The Factory Store.

Christine: Okay.

Em: But they don’t have strawberries or boysenberries.

Christine: Wow. Now, so I got to really think like, what do I want?

Em: Well, you tell me. And, um, I have at least one of almost each in a size you don’t need, so.

Christine: I do love that. I didn’t really mean those shirts.

Em: Oh. [laughs]

Christine: I do– I am happy for you and those shirts, and I would– [laughs]

Em: I’m just so excited. I’m like–

Christine: I would wear the rhubarb one.

Em: –“Of course, everybody wants these shirts.”

Christine: I would wear the rhubarb. Okay. But as I just said, you’re the only person who really wants these shirts. [laughs]

Em: Sure. Okay.

Christine: No, I’m just– Totally–

Em: What’s a, what’s an obscure thing you’re so into?

Christine: I’m sorry. I’m negging you. I’m negging you. Um, I, I don’t know. I almost feel like, wow, that’s such a weight of responsibility. We didn’t know that these shirts would really manifest, and they did. And it’s like now I feel like we got to do something important. No offense, again.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I feel like I’m just insulting you every–

Em: “What do you need? Oh.”

Christine: –fucking five seconds, [laughs] five seconds. But I’m like, “Now what do I manifest? Like world fucking peace?” you know?

Em: You know, tasteful turnips is pretty good on the– At least on the world hunger front, we’ve got turnips and rhubarb and–

Christine: Sure thing. Sure thing.

Em: –sugar beets.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. In the back of The Factory Store. It’s really nice.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um, let– At full price. Uh, let me see.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Why am I bullying you? I don’t know. It just started to get fun. Um–

Em: It’s okay. It’s Friday, so.

Christine: Maybe that’s what it is. I did qigong this morning.

Em: Is that what is causing this? What’s happening?

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Honestly, yeah, probably. ’Cause I released a lot of– So they have these things that you hit yourself with. [laughs]

Em: What?

Christine: So– Okay. I did qigong this morning, and they– Okay. It’s–

Em: Can you explain what that is? I don’t think I know what that is.

Christine: [laughs] It’s a type of yoga at the YMCA and– Well, it’s a type of yoga, and it’s a very– it’s a, it’s a more kind of relaxing– It’s technically a martial art, but again, we’re not gonna get into that.

Em: You suggested this last week when I said I wanted to get into being stretchy.

Christine: 100%.

Em: ‘kay.

Christine: That’s exactly right. And I forgot to mention you also hit yourself with these little things. And they had th–

Em: You did m– You did not mention that when you were suggesting it to me. You were like, “Oh, no. Don’t hit yourself–”

Christine: Oh, okay. Well, come up with– My mom and I’ve googled everything I can think of. Oh, that’s what I’ll manifest. Somebody tell me what that thing is called ’cause it’s like, um– I think traditionally they use bamboo, but they’re these nice soft velvet like– Maybe they use them in Tai Chi. I’m not sure. But you basically, um– Oh, wait. Tai Chi is a martial art, not qigong. Sorry. So you hit yourself with this thing, and it’s just really gentle, and it like is meant to like move energy and like get things flowing. And it’s like a very like– It’s like pat. It’s like a little gentle pat.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: But today, we came late, ’cause of course, and the only one left was this big like hand. So my mom starts slapping me on the butt with it, and I’m like, “Girl, that– Ow, stop it.”

Em: Oh, it hurt.

Christine: Um, and s–

Em: I was kind of hoping it’d be fun.

Christine: Well, it was fun for a second, then I was like, “Alright, enough of that.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: Um, it was too early for that, you know.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: And now– And we did it again. Oh, that’s right. ’Cause we recorded last time, and I, I had a lovely time. And so we went back today, and wow, it’s like been really nice. But anyway, point being, um, that’s probably why I’m behaving this way. I don’t know if it was like moving the energy around. I don’t know if it was like my watercoloring is just like unlocking a really unpleasant side of me or like what, but, um, I’m, I’m loving it. I just know that not everyone else is.

Em: I blame the watercolors.

Christine: I think maybe.

Em: I feel like you’re getting a little too relaxed, you know?

Christine: I think I’m just like getting too zen, you know?

Em: [chuckles] I know. And that’s always been a problem across the land, so.

Christine: It’s a huge, huge problem for me and you. Yeah, big time.

Em: [sighs] Well, what are you drinking? You said your thirsty rat water. Is it just water?

Christine: Just my water. Just some water today. I’m trying to be like, you know–

Em: Zen.

Christine: –hy-hydrated and zen if you have ever heard of it.

Em: Well, uh, I like it. Also your tattoo is flawless today.

Christine: Mm?

Em: She’s really shining in the, in the perfect angle perfectly in the perfect way.

Christine: Oh, this old thing?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Thank you. I’ve been, uh– After I take a shower now, I put on like some oil, like, like some little jojoba oil, you know?

Em: [gasps] Fun.

Christine: And it m– My neighbor, Troy, he, um– I just love the man. He does like Reiki and like has like a little wellness spa in his house, and his house always smells really good. And he gave me for Christmas a little Jojoba oil, body oil. It’s really lovely. Um, shout-out to Troy.

Em: It’s incredible who you’ve found in Kentucky on your street.

Christine: [chuckles] Troy and David.

Em: You just–

Christine: [chuckles] I just kind of like pull them to me. I’m like, I’m like, “Oh, the gay reiki practitioner down the road. I would like to be part of this crowd. Thank you.”

Em: [laughs] I think it’s ’cause you show your big bisexual arm with your big old leopard lion tattoo.

Christine: I mean, it’s not like not intenti– It’s not like unintentional, you know?

Em: It’s certainly a little queer signaling, and I dig it.

Christine: Thank you.

Em: I like– I meant–

Christine: So is the–

Em: I mean that fully complimentary.

Christine: So is the large rainbow flag outside our house. [laughs]

Em: That’ll do it.

Christine: I just wanna be like, “You can come chat with me.” Unless like you’re that guy, Greg–

Em: Oh?

Christine: –but like we’ll talk about him another time, you know.

Em: I’m curious about Greg. Okay.

Christine: Yeah, we’ll talk about him another time. I mean, he’s perfectly fine. He’s just like very– He’s a normie.

Em: I see.

Christine: He’s like a super normie.

Em: That’s all you had to say. I get it.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Ugh. Well–

Christine: I mean, his name’s Greg. You gotta love him though but–

Em: It’s–

Christine: –from afar.

Em: So from Tro– from Troy to Greg, that’s the, that’s the spectrum we’re working on.

Christine: Oh my god. The spectrum is like wide for sure, for sure. Great.

Em: Where do you fall? Little obviously more Troy.

Christine: I’m always moving.

Em: Oh?

Christine: I just can’t sit still. That’s what the watercolor is all about. I think I’m just really–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –kind of channeling some like un-unpleasant energy of just like “whee,” you know.

Em: [sighs] Well, um, I am drinking water, but also I’m finishing my boysenberry juice. So–

Christine: Oh, lovely, lovely.

Em: That was a good time. I– It was my first boysenberry festival. I ate like I can’t even tell you how much food. Like–

Christine: You look– You turned purple. Look at you. Your shirt, everything. You–

Em: I did wear this to the festival.

Christine: Oh, I see.

Em: Um, ’cause I was like, I should, I should match the vibe, and everyone apparently heard, uh, the cries of the festival.

Christine: Oh, they were on theme. Oh. Oh, you love that.

Em: Everyone was purple.

Christine: I love a crowd on theme.

Em: Everyone was purple. Um, the food was beyond. But like– So I don’t know– For people who don’t know Knott’s Boys– Knott’s Berry Farm– Knott’s Boysenberries. Knott’s Berry Farm is– was just a berry farm. Then it became a berry farm and a fried chicken restaurant, and then it became an amusement park. And–

Christine: I’ve never been. I know nothing about this really.

Em: Oh, okay. Um, it’s kind of like–

Christine: I used to hear it on the radio and think they were saying “notsberry farm,”, and I was like, “What’s, what’s that f– notsberry farm?” Like I didn’t understand what they– And then they, they say “not scary” Not–

Em: For Halloween.

Christine: And I was like, “Oh, good. It’s not scary.” And Blaise was like, “No. Like–”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [sighs] Anyway, it’s fine. But–

Em: And then during Christmas, they have Knott’s Merry Farm.

Christine: Oh, see, see– I see what they’re doing.

Em: Um, no. But it– so it was a, a farm for a while and– it is still a farm, but they built a amusement park in it–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –and it actually– I think the story goes it inspired Disney to create Disney World.

Christine: That is a good story.

Em: Yeah. Um, but so every– at every year, they have a festival where they bring out all these boysenberries from their farm and make– have people do like a hundred different types of food.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: And so they do this whole like food tasting festival. So while you’re at the amusement park, you go from restaurant to restaurant–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –and try like annual foods or special foods for that, that week. And, um, there literally was over 100 different boysenberry foods to try–

Christine: That sounds so good.

Em: –and I think I ate 99 of them.

Christine: [chuckles] Did you have a favorite?

Em: [sighs] Yeah. So the fa– the “famous” food this year was called The Brick, which, um–

Christine: Oh? Interesting.

Em: –it was a runner-up for me. It wasn’t my favorite, but it was like a big-ass piece of bread. I have– I took a picture. I’ll send it to everybody. Um, but it was a big–

Christine: To everybody. [laughs] I’ll send it to everybody. I know they all wanna see.

Em: When I say, “I’ll send it, I’ll send it to everybody,” it really means it’ll end up on Instagram. Um–

Christine: Okay. [laughs]

Em: It’s a big, a big square of like brioche with boysenberry ice cream and syrup all over it. It was very good, but it–

Christine: Oh, I see. Yeah, that sounds good–

Em: It’s fine.

Christine: –if executed properly. What’s, what’s the, what’s the– Okay, sorry. Go ahead. So you had a favorite though?

Em: Um, my favorites were, um– I had this boysenberry and blood orange lemonade which was very yummy.

Christine: Oh, wow.

Em: Um–

Christine: That sounds delicious.

Em: Then I had chicken wings. I wrote a list of my favorites so that way next year I know exactly what to order.

Christine: I was like, “What are you looking at?” Oh, I see, a list. Of course.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: You're Virgo Rising. Remember?

Em: I know. I’m noticing it now. Chicken wings with boysenberry Sriracha, a churro with boysenberry ice cream on it. They had a boysenberry cheesecake that was very good, and Dippin' Dots did some sort of collab with them where they were selling Boysenberry Dippin' Dots, and they put it in Sprite. So it became a Sprite float with Boysenberry Dippin' Dots.

Christine: Now, that’s fun.

Em: And they made a– It looked like sushi, so they were calling it boysenberry sushi, but it was a short cake with boysenberry jam in it.

Christine: [groans]

Em: And it looked like a roll of sushi, but it was a p– just a cake roll basically. It was very good.

Christine: [groans] Holy shit. Okay, maybe we talk about this in the Yappy Hour, but I wanna know like, what are your thoughts on eating food that looks like other food? ’Cause I really have a hard time with it.

Em: I fucking love it. Did I tell you about the–

Christine: I, I– It’s so–

Em: –the potato ice cream that I ate?

Christine: Oh, no. What?

Em: We’ll talk about that. We’ll talk about that in the Yappy Hour.

Christine: Okay, okay. ’Cause I, I like– I just– I wonder if it’s like a sensory– Like I just– something– I get really weirded out about it, and I–

Em: It’s, it’s almost an uncanny valley vibe, I think.

Christine: Yeah. I’m exploring that a little bit, you know.

Em: I love that. Well, yeah, we’ll talk about that.

Christine: Um, cool.

Em: Um, and then until then, I have a story for you because if you guys were done with my yapping, too bad. Uh, I’m still here, so.

Christine: Too bad, [chuckles] it continues.

Em: Uh, well, I feel bad when I overpower the first half– the– our, our initial talks.

Christine: I literally talked for about ten straight minutes without letting you say a single word, so.

Em: That's literally not true. You’re just being nice to me. I–

Christine: [laughs] Oh, okay. Sure.

Em: But a-anyway, so I, I, I feel bad because–

Christine: I literally bullied you also for 20 minutes. But yeah, you’re right. I’m being super nice. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I just bullied your clo– your shirts, your many shirts.

Em: No, it– I– I’m glad you noticed.

Christine: Not that one. Not that one. I mean, I bullied that one too, but that was separate.

Em: Oh, the other ones. Yes. Well, you know–

Christine: I believe that went in an ad when I said we look– we don’t look really like, uh, like we use Dailylook, but you know.

Em: Certainly the day after a boysenberry festival, I look–

Christine: [laughs] No.

Em: –I might as well have gone to the bar, you know.

Christine: And like I said, I wore this to qigong this morning, okay?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So we’re looking, we’re looking like yesterday’s, yesterday’s mail. You know what I mean? [laughs]

Em: Beautiful.

Christine: Sorry, I was trying to just end the sentence. I didn’t know what to say. [laughs]

Em: Been there. Um, but [laughs] it actually worked out very well, so.

Christine: Thank you.

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Em’s Story – The Old Washoe Club - Part 1

Em: Well, here’s the beginning of a different sentence–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –and tell me how you feel about this because today, I’m talking about– do you know? You literally recommended it.

Christine: No– Oh! Oh, oh, oh! The one, the one.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: The one in that part of the country where there is also that couple that went there–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –and they did that in an episode of a show of a documentary.

Em: [chuckles] Yep. That’s it.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Actually, yes. Very right.

Christine: Phew.

Em: Um, the Old Washoe Club.

Christine: That’s the one. Oh my god, that’s exactly what I just said.

Em: So once again, Zak Bagans wins because this is like the–

Christine: He just can’t– Man.

Em: –eighth episode in a row that involves him somehow.

Christine: He has power over you and me. Who are we kidding?

Em: I’m disgusted by the whim that I, that I fall to.

Christine: Oh, we just are at his every whim for sure.

Em: My f– maybe favorite thing about these notes is the first line because I wanted to let you know that as I was looking up the history of the Old Washoe Club, um, the very first article I looked at it starts with the sentence: “In the salad days of Nevada…” Now, what d–

Christine: The salad?

Em: The salad days.

Christine: What could that mean please?

Em: I had to look that up. And apparently, it’s a reference from Shakespeare, and it means a– an innocent, youthful, or nostalgic time when one was “green in judgment” or “raw in naiv– naivete,” green in judgment. Um, [chuckles] but, uh, apparently that’s a salad day is when you’re green to the world–

Christine: Really?

Em: –and therefore, very innocent.

Christine: I– Okay. So it’s like you’re– Yeah, you’re green. Right. Okay. Sure.

Em: So now if you ever wanna sound whimsical, you just talk about, “[sighs] in my salad days.”

Christine: Your salad days.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Oh, that’s like– I actually really like that weirdly.

Em: I, I also like it. I mean, it was the first–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: As soon as I saw that, I went, “Well, I’m talking about this,” you know.

Christine: Well, well, well, [chuckles] look what we have here.

Em: So if you have not been privy to the last like eight episodes, it all started with me thinking I was gonna cover one thing one time, and then it has slowly spiraled into–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –just a rat’s nest–

Christine: This–

Em: –of Zak Bagans’s lore.

Christine: Yeah, really. Yeah, we can’t escape. We’ve tried.

Em: And I thought we did finally escape when you were covering the Constantino murder.

Christine: Oh, yeah, then I brought us back. That’s right.

Em: And then you mentioned the Old Washoe Club, and now we’re here. So the butterfly effect is really in full swing.

Christine: I’m so sorry about that.

Em: So as we all know after the last two months, we’re all experts in this. We’ve done this before.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: The mining days of yore. They needed luxury spaces, and they were slowly opening in booming towns for miners and businessmen who were really interested in the silver mines of Nevada.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So in the 1870s, Virginia City– is the town that we’re talking about in Nevada.

Christine: Yes.

Em: It was one of those booming towns. They needed high-profile pe– or they had high-profile people in town who were there on business. And finally, for once, I’m gonna be saying something other than they needed a hotel for these businessmen. Instead, they needed a social club for the high elites of these mining businesses to network each other.

Christine: Well, you’ve got a hotel. What’s next? A social club.

Em: Well, I, I’ve mentioned every other one of those damn hotels. Like we are proof–

Christine: True.

Em: –that they had enough hotels.

Christine: So they’re staying there, and they’re like, “Now what do we do?”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] “We have to go somewhere else, not those dirty mines.”

Christine: “What i– What’s next? I have to go somewhere.” 100%.

Em: So thus comes the Washoe Club. Um, and the Washoe Club quickly became very famous across the Pacific. It had, uh, members in it that were very rich and powerful. Many of them were bankers, judges, attorneys, businessmen in the mining industries, political figures, actors. I don’t know why the fuck actors who have no business in the mining industry are moving to Virginia City to be at this–

Christine: [laughs] They find their little way i– They worm their way into everything these celebrities, you know.

Em: I feel like they just hear a friend of a friend of a friend ha– is in a high society club and they’re like, “Well, I got to join.”

Christine: You’re like, “Oh, has he seen me in, um–“ what’s a really old movie?

Em: A spaghetti Western, I’m sure, or something like that.

Christine: “Have y– Has he seen me in all those spaghetti Westerns?”

Em: Y– [laughs]

Christine: “’cause he’ll want me to be part of this.”

Em: “Who wouldn’t want me here?” Um, examples of these people were General Sherman and General Grant (before he was even President Grant), um, Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, and around 50 other millionaires.

Christine: Jesus.

Em: So because so many millionaires were a part of this, the Washoe Club ended up being nicknamed “The Millionaires’ Club.”

Christine: This sounds like a nightmare.

Em: It does sound like something I don’t wanna be a part of, but I do want all the intel.

Christine: Not even a li– Yeah, I’d like to like see what’s up, but then I think I’d get depressed about it.

Em: I wanna know someone who’s in there. Like I don’t need to go to Club 33 at Disney– again, but– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I was like, “’Cause you already went.”

Em: But I do want to know someone who can tell me what’s going on back there. You know what I mean?

Christine: Yeah. You need to– You wanna, you wanna–

Em: I want the scoop.

Christine: You want the scoop.

Em: Sue me.

Christine: You’re a Gemini.

Em: Sue me. I want the scoop.

Christine: I’m– I’ve tried.

Em: Uh– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Just kidding.

Em: February– So this is in 1875, by the way. And in February 20– on February 20, 1875, that was the first club meeting, which by the way was detailed in, I’m assuming, the town’s only newspaper.

Christine: Okay. Yep.

Em: And in that report or article or the scoop, if you will–

Christine: In the scoop. Yep.

Em: –they talked about this first club meeting. So you know I would have been reading this newspaper front to back.

Christine: You were like glued to this page. Yeah.

Em: According to this article, it was telling us that at the first club meeting, there were 60 members already involved i– at this first meeting–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –and they were hoping for up to 200. So they had a cap immediately that only 200 people could be in here at a time.

Christine: I like that 60 though. It feels like space– spacious enough, you know. Like we all have room.

Em: It’s a healthy, healthy space to be. Yeah.

Christine: Were women allowed? Probably not.

Em: I certainly doubt– How many women in 1875 even were millionaires?

Christine: Literally, the eyeroll you did almost looked painful, but it’s true. Like that– It’s true.

Em: And you know what? I call bullshit on the fact that they would only have up to 200 people there because if the 201st millionaire walked by and said, “I’ll give you a million dollars to be in here–“

Christine: Oh, please. Give me a break. You’re 100% right. They’d be like, “Oh, well, it’s actually a technicality.” Okay.

Em: Yeah. I think they tried to make it look really, uh, like–

Christine: Like exclusive or some shit.

Em: Mm-hmm. So there’s 60 people. Each of them has already paid $150 to be there, which I did the math, of course, and it is about $4,500 today–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –to have even joined without knowing how this is gonna go.

Christine: Okay. I mean, I guess they all have money to throw away. Sure.

Em: If you’re a millionaire, dare I say multi-millionaire, and– $4,500 is like a toothpick for you.

Christine: Oh, please. Yeah.

Em: Nothing. People had not yet paid initiation or dues, so I don’t know what the hell this money was for. But within two months of that first meeting, they had a permanent place, which was called the Reynolds Building. You do not need to know that, but for the history buffs that happen to be listening to And That’s Why We Drink, uh, the Reynolds Building is where the first permanent building was for this club.

Christine: Okay.

Em: In it, it had a library, a wine room, a card room, double parlors, a billiard room, a reading room, a lunchroom, and it was built with Italian marble and bronze details.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: The newspaper article that reported on this building once the updates were all done–

Christine: The scoop.

Em: As somebody who could not attend this meeting but would like to know what’s going on there–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –this newspaper article, when I tell you that they didn’t leave a single detail behind–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –I fucking mean it. Like–

Christine: Do you know how much that brings me just joy? I like– Those old newspaper articles where you’re like, “You don’t need to be saying all this, but thank god you put every detail.”

Em: Every–

Christine: I love that shit.

Em: All the way down to like– Like I’m sure it’s– It would be a spy’s nightmare–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –if someone reported on like how– what their safe house looked like. ’Cause this guy was– This article, whoever wrote it, was describing all the way down to the square footage what happens if you look left versus right and like–

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Like no secrets anymore.

Christine: Like bring it on.

Em: It was talking about what type of door, how it was built, what color it was, what wood was made out of it, how it connected to each room, if it was just a– if it just separated–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –two rooms or if it was a full opening door–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –the names, uh, of each of the rooms, the imagery that he saw in each of them. So if there was a painting on the wall–

Christine: Ooh.

Em: –what type of painting it was and what image it was and who made it and what materials it was made out of. He was talking about what type of tables were in each room, what type of–

Christine: Hey, we gotta set this guy into a certain ma– a certain island I’ve heard of– about–

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: –to do a little investigating. Give me a little scoop on that.

Em: If that guy were here and read up–

Christine: Imagine.

Em: –on what we know so far, he would be livid.

Christine: You’d be fucking livid. What is the point of journalism? Like come on.

Em: Exactly.

Christine: We’ve come so far.

Em: He talked about the types of carpets and if they matched all the other rooms. He talked about the chandeliers–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –like all the way down to like how– what light bulbs were used. Like I mean this guy didn’t– He, he was like, “My nosy mother is gonna read this. I better not fuck around.” Um–

Christine: [laughs] He’s like, “I’m a nosy mother, and I think that’s why I’m writing it like this. ’Cause I care about every little detail.”

Em: And it gave people permission to judge because he was also writing like how the chandeliers– who bought which one and how much each of them was worth and what the–

Christine: Uh– [laughs]

Em: –and what the, what the chandeliers– how each of the chandeliers were different from each other–

Christine: Who picked the ugliest chandelier?

Em: –and if this one looked fancier or if this one didn’t match the rest of the room.

Christine: Holy shit. Wait, why are they all picking different chandeliers? Why is that part of it?

Em: He had every piece of information except that, so.

Christine: Wow, I just got to read this.

Em: Anyway, it was a very, um– a really well done article–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and that was after all the updates were done at this Reynolds Building, which now holds the Washoe Club. So four months into this Washoe Club being at this permanent building, whoops, a great fire comes through the town [laughs] and burns everything down.

Christine: There’s always a great fire. There’s always a great– And why is it so great, you know?

Em: Yeah, it’s pretty great in history as in like that entire mansion just went kablooey.

Christine: Ooh, shit.

Em: So everything I just said–

Christine: All those chandeliers, all those ugly chandeliers.

Em: All those hideous fucking carpets and tables.

Christine: Uh, thank god.

Em: So, um, most documents and information about the club also burnt down with this fire. So we actually don’t have a lot of–

Christine: Oh, that sucks.

Em: –information about what happened in this building. Um, but it was only like four or five months old, and then it was gone. So then all these millionaires–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –who just put all this work into this building– they just paid all these dues, now they’re like, “What the fuck do we do?”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And they had to stay there because this is still at the height of the mining industry. It’s not like, “Well, the mines are kind of dwindling. We can leave.” It was like–

Christine: Ohh, I see.

Em: –they still wanna be here, and they still want something to do other than be at the hotels.

Christine: Okay, okay, okay.

Em: So scrambling for a new location, they find this one saloon that survived the fire. It is now, by the way, known as the oldest saloon in Virginia City–

Christine: Jeez.

Em: –probably because all of its competitors burned down in the fire.

Christine: Y– The great fire.

Em: The great fire, excuse me.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: So it survived the fire and on top of this, uh– on top of the bar were a bunch of apartment buildings, but they were all vacant. I don’t know how that happened.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: And so they were like, “Okay, we’re gonna buy the entire apartment complex on top of this bar, and we’re going to renovate all the apartment rooms into just one big house.”

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: So that’s how we get the final iteration of this club.

Christine: I see.

Em: It was– By the way, the, the bar is called the Crystal Bar, in case anyone cares. And, uh, I will say my favorite thing about the Crystal Bar, ’cause of course I researched that too, is that during Prohibition, this was a speakeasy disguised as an ice cream parlor.

Christine: Oh, that’s clever.

Em: Very And That’s Why We Drink.

Christine: And they’re like– Oh, it totally is. And like they’re like, “Oh, all these men, these mobsters, keep wanting ice cream.” I don’t know.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Not mobsters, but like, “All these like men. It’s just weird. They’re kind of drunkenly stumbling out of that ice cream parlor.”

Em: “That rum raisin ice cream is really getting them.”

Christine: [laughs] That rum raisin is extra– That’s probably what you had to order, Em, to get your–

Em: You’re totally right.

Christine: –to like, “Wink, wink.” You know?

Em: You’re totally right.

Christine: Wow.

Em: Or isn’t there an ice cream that’s like bourbon something, like a bo–

Christine: Bourbon pecan?

Em: Yeah, something like that. But I think rum raisin, you’re right. So according to the same paper that covered the club’s original design where they like went full in on the information, that guy came back for the new location.

Christine: Oh, thank god. They didn’t have enough of him for the first time? I would have been like, “How dare you insult my tacky lamp?”

Em: You would think they’d be like, “Anyone but him.” But I guess he was the only reporter.

Christine: Anyone. Maybe he was– He put on a mustache, was like, “My–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “It’s his friend. It’s not him.”

Em: He was just in like a trench coat on top of three other people or something.

Christine: [laughs] “I’m not him.”

Em: So he came back, and the artic– that article was just as incredible. Um, one of the things that he did talk about was the spiral staircase in this place. A spiral staircase. He loved the spiral staircase.

Christine: Mm.

Em: People still love it. And I will say, fun facts about the spiral staircase are that apparently it had some second door to it that led to the other side of the street, so they could sneakily let ladies of the night come in.

Christine: I see. I see.

Em: And on top of that, this is probably its most famous fun fact: it was actually on Ripley's Believe It or Not! because of this fun fact.

Christine: No way.

Em: It is the longest spiral staircase without a supporting pole.

Christine: Okay. Well, that’s a terrible thing to be in the fucking Ripley's Believe It or Not! or whatever you said. Did you say Ripley's Believe It or Not!?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. That’s– That seems like not something I wanna be part of.

Em: I don’t wanna stand on it.

Christine: No, thanks.

Em: And it’s also like on top of the fact that it sounds structurally unsound, uh, it’s also like 160 years old or something. Why would I touch that?

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t think so. No, thanks.

Em: I’m good. I’m good, dog.

Christine: And then I’m, and then I’m also dizzy. Mm-mmm.

Em: Literally– Excellent point.

Christine: [chuckles] Like nothing good can come of this, you know.

Em: So another feature of this new club–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –is, um, the reading room, which I guess later became a music room, but fun fact– and only two sources– I looked at a lot of sources. Only two sources mention this fun fact.

Christine: Mm-hmm?

Em: The music room is shaped like a piano.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Literally, like–

Christine: But it–

Em: –the walls are shaped like a fucking piano.

Christine: But it wasn’t a piano at first. It was a reading room.

Em: I guess so. That makes no sense to me. Maybe they saw that–

Christine: See?

Em: –and went, “It’s a fucking music room.”

Christine: Maybe the journalist was like, “It’s shaped like a piano,” and they’re like, “It’s literally not.” And he’s like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –“It’s my article. It’s my scoop. I get to say what the fuck I want.”

Em: That’s a good point. No, I– You know what? Maybe I’m mixing up the reading room and the music room ’cause why would you make the– And the music room’s like shaped like a book or some shit. Yeah, I don’t know.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Hm.

Christine: Which is a rectangle, by the way. [chuckles]

Em: And as you say it, I noticed that my house is oddly book-shaped. Um–

Christine: That is crazy. That has to mean something. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] No, it really– I did. O-of the two sources that told me it’s shaped like a piano, only one of them had video evidence, and it is shaped like a piano.

Christine: Mm.

Em: So–

Christine: You mean like a grand piano, like with the–

Em: I don’t– It had a, it had a– [Em curves their hand out, mimicking the curve of a grand piano.]

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Is that a grand piano?

Christine: Yeah. Where it has like the big back to it, the booty?

Em: Now, I don’t know all about that.

Christine: Like a, like a p– not a piano that’s flat against the wall.

Em: It’s not. It would not fit against the back of a wall.

Christine: It’s like one of the ones with the–

Em: It’s got a curvy back.

Christine: It’s got a booty. That’s what I said.

Em: Okay. Well, that’s an extra fun fact that I didn’t even know about. Perfect.

Christine: Got a little behind.

Em: So another feature– Oh, I already mentioned that–

Christine: A little “B-flat-hind.” A “B-sharp-hind.”

Em: Oh?

Christine: No fl– B-flat to be found here. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] B-major! Or something. I don’t know.

Christine: [laughs] Fuck! That’s it. That’s it. That’s it. That’s it.

Em: Um, let me see. Let me see. Okay, so we did– Oh, we did the piano thing. The other la– the last fun fact I’m gonna tell you about this place is that they had a telegraph in there, uh, in this club that was dedicated to giving members like very acv– accurate, um, updated information on stock markets, so that way no matter–

Christine: Oh my god, they had like a stock ticker in there, but it was a fucking telegraph?

Em: Yeah. But also for like 1875. So like so active and accurate and I– Who knows–

Christine: Like “Six weeks ago, this– your stock in horses went up–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–and your stock in wagons went down.”

Em: Something like that. Yeah. I do, uh, I do wonder how accurate it was, but–

Christine: “Oops, a great fire happened. Now you got nothing.”

Em: [laughs] Yeah. They also had actually, um– In the reading room, wherever the fuck that was–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –they had every major newspaper printed and sold there. So that way you could just have every–

Christine: Ohh, I mean–

Em: –so no matter where you’re from.

Christine: –that makes sense.

Em: That’s fun. And also I imagine that that’s quite a perk in 1875 in the middle of Nevada.

Christine: I would say that– I– especially on top of getting your– Stocks are one thing, but yeah, you probably wanna know what’s going on.

Em: Yes. Yeah, that’s– I would. So with this new location–

Christine: I would. ’Cause you want the scoop. [chuckles] You want– Of course you do.

Em: [chuckles] Membership, uh, grew to 100 people very quickly, so went from 60 to 100.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I did look at a roster of some of the people, and interestingly – I know nothing on this, and I could be totally wrong here–

Christine: Oh? [chuckles]

Em: –but one of the members–

Christine: Uh-huh?

Em: –was an E. A. Schulz.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And within ten years of this information–

Christine: Stop.

Em: Knowing that an E. A. Schulz was in Nevada, we know nothing left about my oldest known relative, Edward August Schulz.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: So–

Christine: Oh, we do now, baby. [chuckles]

Em: Like, oh my god. Millionaire in Nevada with a telegraph?

Christine: He’s living the high life. Where are those millions?

Em: I’m telling you, I’ve been looking high and low for anything about an Edward August Schulz.

Christine: He ran off with those millions.

Em: And from– before–

Christine: What’s his name?

Em: Edward August Schulz. And the–

Christine: Edward.

Em: –the last information we had of him was 1865, and now we’re in 1875. Now, the whole family did end up in New York. So we would have to find an E. A. Schulz that went from Nevada to New York or something.

Christine: I’m just writing notes for my future– for one night when I’m, when I’m extra manic, which could be tonight if you could tell by the frenetic energy that I–

Em: I love it though.

Christine: –wacked out of myself. But, uh, I’m taking some not– uh, as long as you’re comfortable with that. I would like–

Em: I don’t– Why the fuck would I– Stop asking permission on shit.

Christine: I don’t know.

Em: I don’t care.

Christine: Um–

Em: Well, so he–

Christine: Wow.

Em: I know my family came in from Ellis Island, so he had to have gone from New York to Nevada to New York, which I could see him coming here and swindling his way into a club with millionaires to network.

Christine: Right, especially if this is like milliona– millionaire behavior. And it’s like what do you– Yeah.

Em: And then go back to New York with the money that he–

Christine: Especially like those mining towns. It’s like you would go out there just to–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –fuck around, find out, I guess. [chuckles] I don’t know.

Em: And he was, uh– Yeah. I don’t know anything about him though, so maybe this is a completely different person. But I was like–

Christine: Did he– So we don’t know. Like he just vanished. It’s not like– not vanished, but like he just vanished off the records. It’s not like he came back to New York later.

Em: He, he must have come back to New York because after him, every single member of the family–

Christine: I see.

Em: –was in New York, and he came in himself through Ellis Island. So–

Christine: Ah. Ohh, okay. Okay, okay.

Em: The only thing that throws me off is why would he go to Nevada? But I could see him trying to just make a quick buck.

Christine: Do you think– Could he have left the family behind? Like did he already have the family there and then leave?

Em: So, funny you say that. The family left him.

Christine: Gasp.

Em: He was apparently such a horrible man that the only way I even found out his name was through newspapers and Ancestry.

Christine: Oh, so this literally checks out that he could be this fucking millionaire asshole.

Em: And he had–

Christine: In like the Elon Musk club of the day.

Em: –no family that wanted him, so he just went to go make more money. I don’t know.

Christine: Jesus.

Em: But apparently he–

Christine: So he could have just wa– Wow.

Em: My own family has always been like, “We don’t talk about him. We don’t talk about him. We don’t talk about him.”

Christine: Did you, did you get a weird feeling when you saw– I mean, you must have at least a little bit. Like that feels weird to see the initials, and you’re like, “I’ve been looking for someone with that exact name for a long time.”

Em: Yeah, that was weird. But–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –I don’t know. It was also just because I’ve– I– Yeah. Also–

Christine: I mean, it’s also like not an uncommon name. Sure, yeah. But–

Em: An E. Schulz–

Christine: –it’s pretty weird.

Em: –would have thrown me because I would have been like, “Oh my god, it’s me in a past life. I was a millionaire.”

Christine: “It’s you.” Right.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: 100%. Yeah.

Em: So, um, I don’t know. It, it was just interesting.

Christine: Okay. Okay. I’m just, uh, taking a little mental note.

Em: I speak only to your mania. Do what you must, you know.

Christine: Thank you. I wish more people–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –would speak only to my mania ’cause then it’d be like a lot easier to compartmentalize, you know, so. Someday.

Em: You know what? Whatever you need to do.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: From nothing to everything, I’m happy no matter what.

Christine: [laughs] Great. I’ll let you know as it happens.

Em: So in the 1890s, uh, the mining industry is now down. So less people are spending time there, so they’re not paying active dues. So the club closes very quickly. It goes from like–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –it opened in the ‘70s, and now it’s closed in the ‘90s. It was a short-lived experience. Um, the saloon underneath though, it did stay open. It’s still open today. For many years, the club levels were abandoned, although sometimes it was office space. Um, but now the levels are available if you decide to go on a ghost tour or an overnight investigation. So–

Christine: Are you allowed on the spiral stairs?

Em: I’m confused.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: I think so.

Christine: I’m gonna say big time no. Just on– for– to anyone who’s asking me, I’m gonna say get– to get off the stairs. But–

Em: I will say if I were there and I looked up and saw those stairs, I’d go, “I’m not climbing those.” I would say that personally.

Christine: I, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. That’s not for me. And I honestly advise anyone in my party to maybe not.

Em: I agree.

Christine: That would really ruin the vibe.

Em: If there were other stairs, I would take those definitely.

Christine: Please.

Em: And I would take those as a plan B.

Christine: Now, is there an elevator?

Em: No.

Christine: Oh god.

Em: [sighs] So. If there is, I didn’t see it. I’ll tell you that. Um, but basically, when it comes to the, the death and the afterlife of this place, during its years here, the club obviously had some shady businesses going on because it was a bunch of millionaires in the middle of nowhere, killing time during a silver mining big break.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So–

Christine: And like needing a place to like be amongst their kind–

Em: Other, other men–

Christine: –which is always gross. Yeah.

Em: –of their caliber, as they’d say.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: They had a lot of gambling and sex work, and it was still the Wild West. Let’s not forget that. So, um–

Christine: Right. Right, right.

Em: And it sat above the town’s oldest saloon, so let’s not forget that. Definitely a lot of drama and deaths, and there was a lot of, a-as many articles put it, gunslinging activities. So we’ll–

Christine: Whew, activities? [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Sounds like with gunslinging–

Christine: Uh-huh?

Em: –there’s only one activity, but okay.

Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say, how many can you really pull out of that? But okay.

Em: And everyone was here because of, of mining booms. There was a bunch of mining a-accidents going on. So there was a lot of death, and then it bringing– being brought to, uh, the building after the fact. There’s a lot of just dark energy. A lot of dastardly stuff swarmed this building, so.

Christine: Yeah, seriously.

Em: Probably the most direct hit spiritually or paranormally that this place had was that during one winter, the ground was so frozen that gravediggers could no longer dig bodies or dig the ground up–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –to put bodies in, and they needed a place to store them.

Christine: Oh no.

Em: And the bar became, uh, what has been referred to as a pre-morgue and–

Christine: A pre-morgue? Oh my god.

Em: –these bodies would be put in burlap sacks, which like wow, just like scientifically such a biohazard. Um–

Christine: W-wow. And also just like s– like a haunted house. Like bodies in burlap sacks?

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: I mean, Jesus.

Em: And then they would just store them in this little offshoot storage area by the bar, which is now literally known as The Crypt. Um–

Christine: Oh, for god’s sake. Not the pre-morgue?

Em: Not the pre– Well, I heard, uh, some of the staff in interviews calling it a pre-morgue, and I was like, “Are you just trying to avoid the word ‘crypt’?” So–

Christine: Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

Em: Uh, The Crypt is now still a random storage room that you can go into.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: But people say that when they go in there, you can literally smell death still.

Christine: No. No.

Em: I guess to get these bodies out, once it started getting cold enough– or once it started getting warm enough, I would assume they only knew that once it started smelling like bodies in there – or maybe–

Christine: Horrid.

Em: –the ground was loosey-goosey. I don’t know.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: Let’s hope that was what was going on. But the only way to get them out of the bar and into the ground is they had to then drag all these burlap sacks across the bar in front of everybody. So people just saw bodies getting dragged out, and it was almost 100 bodies.

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: It’s a bad day, uh, f–

Christine: So they probably maybe even knew some of these people. I don’t know if that’s true. I don’t know how big this town is, but–

Em: No, I thought the same thing. I thought the same thing.

Christine: Yikes.

Em: It was 77 bodies. Someone knew someone.

Christine: Jesus.

Em: Um–

Christine: Ugh.

Em: So anyway, today, people still claim that they smell death. When you go into The Crypt, people have had pebbles thrown at them–

Christine: [gasps] Weird.

Em: – yeah – even though they’re there by themselves. And according to one bartender, which– I don’t know her name, and I honestly don’t wanna because she is saying things a little too casually for me.

Christine: Oh dear.

Em: She says, “Oh, yeah, Randall, our Creepy Crawler, grabbed me by the ankle in there.”

Christine: [gasps] Don’t say that.

Em: Girl, give a caveat.

Christine: Don’t say that.

Em: What do you mean?

Christine: Girl, back up. Back the fuck up.

Em: Take a breath and realize how fucking crazy that is, what you just said. Um, she apparent–

Christine: [chuckles] What is, what is that one thing from Jersey Shore? [chuckles] “Take a door and walk through it” or what–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] What is that phrase?

Em: “Open the door and fucking realize it.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “Open the door and fucking realize it.”

Christine: “Open the door and fucking realize it.” Okay?

Em: Which like I’m so glad– You just brought tears to my eyes. I–

Christine: Oh, it is such a good one. I can just never remem–

Em: You do know what’s happening in two days?

Christine: Oh, that’s right. Yes. The– Yes. It’s been on my mind, Jersey Shore, a little bit.

Em: I am very lucky to say that I’m going on a trip with my mother, and I am– I think I said it in the last week, but I have to bring it up again. I’m going to go see the actual Jersey Shore. I’m so excited. Like the Jersey Shore house, like the house where they filmed it in.

Christine: Man.

Em: [groans] And I can’t wait to get a picture of a door just so I can send it to you and say, “Fucking realize it.”

Christine: [sighs] Honestly. And then I’ll say, “Yeah, take a door and open it.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And you’ll be like, “That’s not– That’s nothing.”

Em: Very excited. Thank you for mentioning that. [sighs]

Christine: Yeah. You’re so welcome. It really just got stuck in my head for a few days, and then I lost it completely, so.

Em: I cannot wait. Uh–

Christine: “Open the door and realize it.”

Em: –you really tapped into something there. Anyway, yeah, in case you need a, a nice one-liner for somebody today.

Christine: [chuckles] It’s good.

Em: Back to Randall, th– our “Creepy Crawler,” as she said a little too happily.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don’t like that.

Em: She calls him Randall because apparently this fucking “Creepy Crawler” friend of hers who grabs her by the ankles inside The Crypt– and she just giggles her way out after that sentence–

Christine: [gasps] From Monsters Inc.?

Em: From Monsters Inc. ’Cause he–

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: –looks exactly like Randall from Monsters Inc. Except he– and–

Christine: I was gonna say the only Randall I know is that creepy thing from Monsters Inc.

Em: She said it way too casually, but then she went, “I mean, he doesn’t like change colors like Randall in the movie, but he is, of course, black with silver eyes.” And she just kept moving, kept it moving.

Christine: [laughs] “Of course.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “But he can’t color change. That would be ridiculous.”

Em: “That would be insane.”

Christine: What are you talking about?

Em: And then she said, “He does like to slither all over the floor–“

Christine: No.

Em: “–and people have seen him climb up the walls.”

Christine: Don’t be like this.

Em: I was like–

Christine: Don't be like that.

Em: First of all, if I were trying to get someone to interview about like ghost stuff, she nailed it. She really–

Christine: Uh, yeah.

Em: –wasn’t afraid to hold back. But I was like, “Can you at least act knowingly that I’m freaked the fuck out?”

Christine: Uh, like slightly perturbed, right. Read the room.

Em: Anyway, she apparently has had way too many experiences.

Christine: [chuckles] He is black with– silver with black– What is he? Black with silver eyes.

Em: Black with silver eyes, Randall–

Christine: Forget it. Forget it.

Em: –who crawls up the walls and slithers on the floor and apparently tries to make–

Christine: [chuckles] “He grabbed my ankle.”

Em: –eye contact with people.

Christine: Ew!

Em: Yuck.

Christine: Ew!

Em: So I would say he is my least favorite. If I had to spend the night there–

Christine: Yeah, fuck that.

Em: –Randall would freak me out the most.

Christine: That’s like the crawler from Bobby Mackey’s. I don’t know. I just– It’s like, no–

Em: I’m good.

Christine: –not for me. Thanks.

Em: I’m good.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: The– Another death that happened here, which was much more recent, um, was that actually one of the bartenders, uh, died from a self-inflicted gunshot.

Christine: [groans] Oh.

Em: Um, because he found out that his son died in a mining accident.

Christine: [gasps] Oh, Jesus Christ.

Em: And so apparently, um– It feels weird to say that he’s probably people’s favorite ghost there. I think it’s because he’s the closest to our time, so he feels a little more relatable or something like that or– So apparently the only thing that we know for sure about him– This is from the same person who’s like really chummy with Randall. She said that, uh, her and Scotty, the bartender who passed away, are pretty tight ghost-wise–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –but he usually does not care for women, which is interesting ’cause I, I don’t know what else there is about him besides the fact that he lost his son. So I don’t know why he has a– an issue with women, but apparently, he does.

Christine: Hm. Well, a lot of men do for no good reason, so.

Em: [chuckles] Sure, great point.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, there are two to three kids who passed away here, or at least two, three kids who haunt this place.

Christine: Ooh, okay.

Em: There is a ten-year-old girl named Gretchen who, uh– Remember I said for a while after the club closed this was office space?

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: One of the offices up there was a doctor’s office, and she had ju– She had been walking right past the building and got hit by a horse and carriage– a horse and wagon.

Christine: Oh, Jesus Christ.

Em: And people carried her up to the doctor’s office and, and hoped to help her–

Christine: Oof.

Em: –but she ended up dying from her injuries. And now she haunts the building, and she’s known to be quite the giggler. Um–

Christine: Oh my, oh my.

Em: She walks around the ballroom. Apparently, there was a ballroom at one point. So she walks around there, and she’s also seen in a white dress on the staircase, uh, sometimes climbing the stairs–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and if, if you’re climbing the stairs, people have felt a little kid grab their hand.

Christine: Oh, that makes me sad.

Em: And that’s said to be Gretchen. There’s another ghost who– or another little kid who died the exact same way, which is very eerie, also hit by a horse and carriage and then died of his injuries. Uh, he was a nine-year-old boy named Pete or Peter. And he’s now known to be a rambunctious ghost who likes to yank on your shirts, pant legs, and purses.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And then there’s a little girl, an eight-year-old named Ella, and she died in a mine explosion where, I guess, a mine explosion happened in the building next door and killed like 12 people, and two of those people were people who lived in the Old Washoe Club.

Christine: Jesus. Okay.

Em: So she died from like the blast, I guess.

Christine: Right, right. Sh– Yeah. Yeah.

Em: And she had a doll–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –that now apparently still moves by itself.

Christine: Oh, for god’s sake. I mean–

Em: I’m out.

Christine: Uh-uh.

Em: I’m out. Um, I’d be like, “Girl, take your doll. I don’t know where you are. Get out of here.” [chuckles]

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “You and the doll can go.”

Christine: “Have a nice life together–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “–afterlife together.”

Em: So on the staircase, on that big spiral staircase, not only is there that little girl dressed in white who likes to grab your hand, but there’s also, of course, a Lady in Blue. Finally blue, but–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –a lady.

Christine: Plot twist.

Em: And they say that her name is Lena. A lot of the articles said that she was a sex worker from the club’s days–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –but then the woman who knows Randall and all these other people and seems a lot more of today’s world– I don’t know how else to put it. She seems like someone who like– She’s more– I don’t know what the right word is. It doesn’t feel like it’s an article from 50 years ago. It feels like she’s just a person who’s talking about today, so I kind of trust her more. Does that make more sense?

Christine: Right. It feels more relatable.

Em: Yeah. She was the only person to say this, but she did say, “I don’t think she was a sex worker– or she wasn’t a sex worker. She was just a mistress.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, she just said, “She’s a mistress, uh, who was hooking up with one of the guys in this club, and the wife found out.”

Christine: Ohh.

Em: “And the wife actually killed her on the stairs–“

Christine: Oh, shit.

Em: “–and then got away with it because she was married to a fucking millionaire.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: I didn’t know that at all.

Christine: And it’s just in the house of millionaires. Yeah. Holy shit.

Em: Everywhere else said like a sex worker who was killed by one of the people in the club or, you know–

Christine: Of course, it was probably covered up.

Em: Yeah, something like that. Um, or e–

Christine: Even if it was a sex worker, he was having an affair with and then like the wife finds out, right? Like it’s just–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –like, whoa, that makes it really un– like way creepier to know that that happened and then they just like didn’t do anything about it.

Em: Yeah. Or–

Christine: Ugh.

Em: –I would see articles where it didn’t mention like if she was a sex worker or not, but it does put it in your mind when you’re like, “Why is there a woman in a millionaire’s club where like some debauchery is going on?”

Christine: Mm.

Em: You assume that something XXX is going on, you know?

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: But she was the only person to say it was a mistress and the wife of one of the husbands is who killed her and it was on the fucking stairs. I didn’t know that at all. Um–

Christine: Wow.

Em: So people see her now. She’s a blonde woman in a Victorian blue dress–

Christine: Do we know her name? Or no?

Em: What’d you say?

Christine: Sorry. Do we know her name? Or no?

Em: We think her name was Lena.

Christine: Oh, Lena. That’s right. I was about to be like, “I really like that name.” I’m like, yeah, ’cause it’s one letter off Leona.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [chuckles] I’m like, “Wow, what a nice name.”

Em: So we see her now as a blonde woman in a Victorian blue dress. She’s seen on the third floor, which is where the club was, um, but people have also seen her as a blue mist. People have seen her as blue specks or blue orbs in a picture.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, so she comes in all shapes and forms, you know, from Troy to Greg, you know.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: So– [laughs]

Christine: The full spectrum. Wow, Em, what a callback.

Em: Thank you. Um, so this is why I also was kind of blown away by the fact that a woman maybe killed her on the stairs is that every other article said, “And her killer is also seen in the building as this dark shadow figure–“

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “–with a brimmed hat.” And so–

Christine: Oh, wow. So it could be–

Em: It was very–

Christine: –like–

Em: –very i–

Christine: –just–

Em: –very implied it was not a woman.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And, uh–

Christine: Interesting.

Em: So now I don’t know if the dark shadow everyone sees is a bad scary person who killed Lena or was just like a random man who’s like taken the heat for this–

Christine: Or is it–

Em: –woman?

Christine: I mean, my first thought is like Shadow Man or Hat Man where I’m like, oh, a lot of times shadow figures show up where there’s like really dark energy. Maybe it’s just like, “Hey, I’m here too.” [chuckles]

Em: Interesting. My other thought was like what if it was the husband she was sleeping with–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and is like trying to– he’s trying to get his wife or something.

Christine: Gasp. He’s back.

Em: I don’t know. It could be anyone. But apparently, there is a dark shadow figure often thought t–

Christine: Or maybe she wore a hat.

Em: Maybe she wore a fucking hat.

Christine: Like Carmen San Diego.

Em: You’re totally right. Why am I gender, uh, informing here?

Christine: You just do that a lot. [laughs] I’m just kidding.

Em: I know. I know. [laughs]

Christine: It’s just like your thing that you do.

Em: So uh, he’s also seen on the upper floors. Uh, he could be anyone from the club days at this point, but people have also– When they see him around, they’ve also smelled cigar smoke upstairs. They’ve heard poker chips, uh, clinking.

Christine: Oh, so he’s not really like a shadow person in the background. He’s like a– an apparition more?

Em: I guess so, yeah.

Christine: Okay.

Em: People have heard piano music playing. People have heard voices talking to each other. Apparently, footsteps are so common, it’s like crazy.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And at the poker table that still sits there– I don’t know if it’s the poker table or just a table to like be, “This is where we play poker.” Anytime you’re in the poker room, electronics fail a lot. In the music room, the one shaped like a piano–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –apparently, there’s a porcelain doll in there that rocks itself in a rocking chair.

Christine: Is that the same one?

Em: No, it’s not, it’s not the same doll.

Christine: Oh, okay.

Em: Ella’s doll, I think–

Christine: Why are there so many fucking dolls?

Em: I think Ella’s doll moves like by itself around the house or something–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –or like moves its arm or like blinks or something, but this one like rocks in the chair.

Christine: Forget it. Come on.

Em: Also in the piano room, people hear old ragtime music playing like someone’s in there–

Christine: Now, that’s fun.

Em: It’s fun until you’re alone in a room and hearing a demon piano playing ragtime music.

Christine: And then the doll’s like, “Here I come.” And you’re like, “No.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] “This is my music.” Yeah.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Uh, one room there is called the Red Room, which is known to have the darkest energy without fail. Every interview I saw, everyone was like, “Oh, the Red Room. I don’t like going in the Red Room.”

Christine: Ugh.

Em: Apparently, people have been scratched and shoved in there. They smell sulfur. They get dizzy and have to leave. About like 30 different people have been on record scratched there really viciously. Um–

Christine: Jesus.

Em: There– I saw one interview– I don’t remember where I saw it anymore, but they saw like a little girl get like fucked up. Like scratch, scratch, scratched all over her back.

Christine: What the fuck?

Em: Um, doors slam here. This is where Zak Bagans got one of his very first apparitions, by the way, um–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –like ever.

Christine: On camera?

Em: On camera.

Christine: No way.

Em: And it’s also very common for ghosts to peek their head around corners at you.

Christine: Agh.

Em: The girl–

Christine: No.

Em: –who I was talking about earlier who has– who gave me quite a lot of useful information, um, in the interview I watched her do, she acted like the heads peeking around was also as common as footsteps.

Christine: It’s just–

Em: Like–

Christine: –just another silly thing.

Em: She made it sound like every hour on the hour someone’s peeking their head around.

Christine: She’s like, “You know how it is.”

Em: Yeah. Um, and then the club isn’t the only part that’s still haunted. The bar downstairs is also haunted. Like I said, it’s the oldest saloon in Virginia City. Um, and they are still running, and they have cocktails that are ghost themed.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: You know, I love a theme. Uh, they have “Ghost Iced Tea,” which is like kind of like womp-womp.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Like we could have tried harder, I think. Um, but then they also have the “Blue Lady” and the “Flaming Orb.”

Christine: Now we’re talking.

Em: Now we’re talking. And there seems to be one main ghost here. I guess he’s sometimes called the Prospector, uh, according to some articles–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –but he is blamed for pretty much all the activity in the bar. Sometimes people will buy him a shot of bourbon to keep him at bay, and the shot glasses always are found empty later.

Christine: Weird.

Em: Um, glasses will also just go missing entirely if they have bourbon in them.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: He’s like, “I’ll take this one for the road.” Sometimes the glasses fly off the bar. Like they just get thrown–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and people just watch them fly.

Christine: He’s like, “This is shit bourbon. I don’t want this.”

Em: Yeah. “What is this? Swill?”

Christine: Yeah. “What is this swill?”

Em: The doors have a tendency to open on their own when women come into the bar, so he’s a gentleman. Love that. And– Except for the throwing glasses. [chuckles]

Christine: I was gonna say, “Well…” [laughs]

Em: And the bar stools are said to move around by themselves. And different bartenders– One guy said it’s always the fourth bar stool.

Christine: Weird.

Em: And one bartender said it’s always the third bar stool. But one of those two, it always knocks itself over totally by itself, always just falls over.

Christine: Yuck.

Em: And people have also been yanked out of those bar stools–

Christine: Whoa!

Em: –if they were being rude to the staff.

Christine: Oh.

Em: So apparently, this ghost is like protective of the employees–

Christine: That’s good.

Em: –but like will literally get ripped out of the chair.

Christine: Yeah, good.

Em: Um, and then that is it for the Old Washoe Club today, but what I’m gonna be covering next week–

Christine: Oh my god, it continues.

Em: It continues. And I’m sorry– For other people who don’t like this, I don’t like this either.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I would like to get back to my fucking normal life, but–

Christine: I fucking love it, so whatever.

Em: –apparently Zak Bagans is polluting the air.

Christine: “I wanna get back to my normal life.” Oh my god.

Em: But he, uh, he went there– you said twice. He went there three times, and I did find the third video.

Christine: Gasp.

Em: So–

Christine: You did?

Em: Yeah. So I will be covering unfortunately another Ghost Adventures [chuckles] commentary, but, uh, it, it was too much to talk about in this one, but I also don’t wanna not mention it, so.

Christine: And yeah, I gotta know what happens, you know? I gotta know. Um–

Em: Anyway, that was the Old Washoe Club.

Christine: Wow. I was just thinking about that place the other day. I don’t know why. It just like popped in my head.

Em: You could sense me doing notes.

Christine: Maybe I did, honestly. Um, wow. Okay. Well, I think we’re gonna do a Yappy Hour in a moment, um, but I need to get a bite to eat real quick.

Em: [gasps]

Christine: Is that okay? Just a protein bar.

Em: I don’t care. Yeah, that sounds great.

Christine: Oh.

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Christine’s Story – Anthony Gignac aka the Prince of Fraud

Em: [sighs] Well, I feel perfectly calm for a horrible story to make me un-calm.

Christine: Great. Excellent. Let’s get into it. Okay. So today, I have– It’s, it’s a bit of a shorter story, which like obviously, we say that a lot, and it’s never true. So I’m gonna say that now.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Um, I think it’s true this time. We’ll see.

Em: Okay.

Christine: This is the story of a man that the L.A. Times nicknamed “The Prince of Fraud.”

Em: Oh! I love a fraud case. Does that mean no one dies?

Christine: Um, no one dies.

Em: [gasps] So we can just say whatever we want. Yay. I always get worried where I’m like, “Who do– Who am I–“

Christine: I think no one dies.

Em: “Who am I gonna crack a joke about and then I feel really fucking bad for the rest of my life?”

Christine: [chuckles] I, I feel like three lines in I’m gonna be like, “And then she was murdered– Oh, oops.” [chuckles]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Uh, no, I don’t think anyone dies. So like, you know, hold me to that please, ’cause, uh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna get into it. But– I don’t know why I’m doing this. I’m like zooming in on my computer really big when I like brought my iPad so that I could look at something. Um–

Em: It’s okay, Grandma.

Christine: Yeah, I know. I’m like extra, extra, extra large font. Okay, here we go. Here are my notes. So the Prince of Fraud, uh, aka the “Fake Sultan.” He’s got a lot of nicknames, okay? This story today that I’m gonna tell it to you– the way that I’m gonna tell it to you begins on Fisher Island, uh, off the coast of Florida, uh, Miami area. Do you know this place, Fisher Island?

Em: Nope.

Christine: No. Okay. I’ve heard of it, but I certainly have had no, uh, connection to it whatsoever. It– I feel like maybe it’s where your millionaire folks at the Washoe Club maybe would have reincarnated and come back here, to this Fisher Island. It's very–

Em: Beautiful.

Christine: –luxurious, very– This is more like billionaire status actually–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –so I don’t really know if they’re quite–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –allowed to cross over like if– I feel like you probably have to spend more than $4,000 to just be in the room, you know?

Em: Sure, sure.

Christine: From earlier? Yeah.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So Fisher Island. If you’re unfamiliar, a two– Fisher Island is a 216-acre man-made like little oasis island thing off the coast of Miami that holds a distinction of having the highest per-capita income of any zip code in the United States.

Em: Jesus. Okay, so like– You’re right, billionaires. Yeah.

Christine: I’m– I was underselling the status of it. I was thinking like how quaint and fun that we both did like rich people stuff, but this is like, oh, shit– this is like–

Em: Yeah. I understand.

Christine: –next level. This is like the– a late-stage capitalist version of this story. [chuckles]

Em: Oh my gosh.

Christine: Um, yeah, it’s rough. So into this world of extreme wealth stepped a man one day known to everyone as Prince Khalid bin Al-Saud. He lived there on Fisher Island in a luxury penthouse that cost $18,500 a month, and he made his presence known immediately.

Em: Of course.

Christine: Of course.

Em: You gotta.

Christine: He dr– You gotta. So he drove this brand new Ferrari California fitted with diplomatic license plates. Like he had the whole, whole thing. He had, um, security that accompanied him places–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –um, diplomatic security service, like security detail. They wore the official DSS, uh, lapel pins. Um, neighbors knew him as very flamboyant. Uh, he was known for wearing like the l– this is the specific example they gave – the latest Gucci fur slippers. Like he would always be–

Em: Wow.

Christine: –on top of his game in that front. Um, and people actually– Locals actually googled some of the stuff he wore and did because it was like so outrageous. Like people googled, for example, the Gucci fur slippers to like uncover what this guy was up to ’cause he was such a mystery. Like he showed up and just made such a big splash–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and was so eccentric that people were kind of side-eying him a little bit.

Em: Just like, “Who’s that girl?” Yeah.

Christine: [chuckles] “Who is that girl?”

Em: [chuckles] “What’s she doing here?”

Christine: “Are those real?”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah. And they were. So his neighbors and the staff of the island, uh, took his royal status as fact, often– I mean, he has this house. He has these Gucci fur slippers, and they are real. Um, he– It was suggested– it was implied to people that when they address him they use, uh, honorifics like “Your Highness”–

Em: Oh my.

Christine: –or “His Highness.” Um, and when people met him, his entourage would quietly suggest that you bow a little bit when you greet him.

Em: Damn.

Christine: Um, ’cause he’s a prince after all. And, uh, most people just kind of went along with it. They don’t know. They’re like, “I guess he’s this Saudi prince that he’s claiming to be. Why should I argue?” You know?

Em: Right.

Christine: And like, “I’ll bow to this guy, I guess.” Um, he always had a, a tale to weave. So he’s like the it girl, not just in his eccentric, flamboyant way, he’s also the it girl in that he loves to be the center of attention. Okay? He just can’t help himself, this guy.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So he was always telling these stories, right? Um, for example, he– A local resident once asked him which of the Saudi king’s many wives was his mother.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And he simply replied, “The good one.”

Em: [scoffs]

Christine: And everyone was like, “Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.” It’s like, “What the fuck are you talking about?”

Em: Okay. [chuckles]

Christine: Like what do you– What does that even mean?

Em: I don’t think him and I would get along. Okay.

Christine: You don’t? [chuckles]

Em: No.

Christine: It took you this long?

Em: You had me with like the outrageous clothing ’cause I was like, “I do wanna know what that’s all about.” But now I think I’m–

Christine: Yeah, it’s intr– it’s intri–

Em: Personality-wise, he’s a real stinker.

Christine: So yeah. Anyone I have to bow to as soon as I meet them, I’m like, “Okay, I don’t know about this.” Um–

Em: [chuckles] Do you think his friends bowed to him too, or were they like, “Your Bitchness?” Like do you think they were like very like silly about it?

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Or do you think he– Like what happened?

Christine: No, I think, I think he took himself very seriously. Like I think like– It wasn’t– Yeah. I mean, I don’t think he necessarily– Hm. That’s a good question. I don’t know that he had friends like in that way.

Em: I just feel like if, all of a sudden, I was, let’s say, knighted and– or in some way I’m expected to be bowed to, I wonder if–

Christine: Okay, but so his story is like, oh, he grew up as like a prince of this like–

Em: Ohh.

Christine: –billionaire– who even knows how much money family. So like he’s not joking about it. Like he’s like, “This is my literal entire li–“ You know what I mean?

Em: I get it. I, I still–

Christine: It’s like a different vibe. It’s not like he like stumbled into this, you know?

Em: Sure. I still always wondered though, like even like Prince William. Like do you think like– Do you think his friends bow to him?

Christine: I don’t know anything about that. I don’t even know who that is.

Em: People weigh in because I’m curious. I do think like Kate Middleton, for sure, her friends like don’t bow. They’re like, “Girl, I don’t know y– We’re, we’re closer than that.” Like I feel like something has to happen.

Christine: I–

Em: Anyway.

Christine: I’m like– When it comes to these royal things, I just like– I’m so blank. I’m– I have no concept of any of this.

Em: It’s a real–

Christine: I know who Kate Middleton is.

Em: It’s a real sidebar. I just get so into like what are their personal lives like?

Christine: Mm.

Em: Like h-how much of that etiquette is really there?

Christine: Well, you’re gonna find out a lot about this one, so don’t worry.

Em: Sorry. Keep going. I’m so sorry.

Christine: No, no, no. This is good. This is good. Uh, we need to have this kind of out in the open because it is very weird and very confusing. And he became notorious– but not really notorious, more like just like infamous around the island for just being, um, eccentric, um, a, a prince, a royal, a Saudi royal, mysterious in his own way, um, and a chatterbox and also the center of attention. But perhaps even more famous was his chihuahua, Foxy.

Em: [chuckles] Okay.

Christine: Foxy, Foxy lived a life of luxury.

Em: I’m sure.

Christine: Of true luxury. Okay. She wore a diamond-encrusted necklace that people claimed looked like Elizabeth Taylor’s jewelry.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Uh, she slept in a Cadillac-shaped bed, um, like a Cadillac dog bed.

Em: Uh-huh.

Christine: And it had license plates that said “spoiled,” like custom– custom vanity plates.

Em: Now, I don’t know about the prince, but I know people bowed to Foxy. [laughs]

Christine: Now, Foxy deserves a little bit of regal attention.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And I would agree.

Em: 100%.

Christine: Some fucking respect with a capital R.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So to round out the dog’s nursery, yes, the nursery, he even purchased a custom pink piano from Neiman Marcus, um, for Foxy.

Em: That the dog obviously cannot play. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Well, Em, I don’t know. It’s a special fucking dog. It’s a royal dog.

Em: Maybe.

Christine: Who am I to say? Um, the amount of wealth that the prince claimed to command was just, I mean, staggering. Um, he told everyone he controlled a significant personal stake in Saudi Aramco, which is the world’s largest state o– state-owned oil company. And like when you think about the, the Saudi princes and, you know, the wealth– the unimaginable wealth, there is this element of mystère as well because we don’t actually get to know the numbers. We don’t actually know how much money they have.

Em: Wow.

Christine: That’s not information that we know. We just know it’s like, I mean, literally unimaginable. And so you just think–

Em: Insane.

Christine: –like to come from that world and have just unlimited money, like it’s just– And I remember I met some people in DC who had– not in my circles or anything, but like I had like [chuckles] seen them, you know, like these people who would come from– with like diplomatic immunity or whatever and like have these like bank accounts. Like you just had a card that like linked you to endless money, and I’m like, “What the fuck?”

Em: Crazy.

Christine: I mean, I was working at the law library for like $9 an hour, but okay.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um, I guess you can buy me a Bud Light Platinum. Uh, anyway, so this is this guy. This is his dog. It’s just– Talk about flamboyant, okay. He tells everyone he has this stake in Saudi Aramco. And so they’re like, “Holy shit, he’s got money money,” okay? To prove it to people, he would– Not that people were like, “Prove it,” but I guess just as like evidence of this, he would show off this ornate box he had which contained a letter allegedly from the Bank of Dubai that guaranteed to him the availability of $600 million just to access for any sort of business ad– business venture– I almost said business adventure. Uh–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –that’s what this podcast is. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –any sort of business venture, [chuckles] anything he wants to invest in, any friends he wants to help out. Like $600 million just kinda– just sitting there just, just to have for fun. So of course, people are like, “Oh, interesting.” Like, “Thanks for inviting me over. This looks like it’ll be a nice friendship for me.” I imagine at least that’s what people were thinking. I don’t know what rich people are like. It doesn’t seem like fun. So he gets this letter allegedly from the Bank of Dubai that he’s showing people he has $600 million, and he would tell people that he kinda got to know and would invite over– he offered them exclusive access to sovereign-backed deals in things like Irish pharmaceuticals, uh, Maltese casinos. Like he had these–

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: –like kind of very out, out there– It feels almost like they can’t be fact checked, you know?

Em: Sure.

Christine: Uh, like what’s it? What do you mean? Irish pharmaceuticals and Maltese casinos, Middle Eastern jet fuel.

Em: Like who do you go to for that evidence.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. What is that supposed to mean? But people fell for it, right? ’Cause like why wouldn’t you just believe that? And also he looked the part. He, he wore like the traditional clothing – um, bishts, they’re called, and thawbs. And he, um, he essentially just was so– It was very Catch Me If You Can, right?

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like he’s just so self-assured, very con artist. Like people just believed him without even considering he would– might be lying.

Em: Right.

Christine: In reality, this guy was not a Saudi royal. I know, shocking. Um, his name was actually Anthony Gignac, and he had grown up in–

Em: Tony G.?

Christine: Tony G.

Em: [laughs] Of course.

Christine: He, he’d grown up in Michigan.

Em: Of course.

Christine: He wasn't even born– Not only was he not born as a Saudi prince or anywhere in that part of the world, he was born in Colombia, Colombia [pronounced “col-ome-bee-ah”].

Em: Mm.

Christine: And was– Like there’s no tie to any reality here, right? Like just pointing that out from the–

Em: Fascinating.

Christine: –from the jump. Like there’s no tie whatsoever to any fiction– like any figment of reality in this one. You know how sometimes you see people and they like kind of glom onto something and like take it really far and say they got like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –a degree from Harvard, and it’s like, “Okay, you took a class or whatever,” but they like– Like this is just totally out of, out of the blue.

Em: I– Maybe you’re gonna cover this, but how did he not get hi– How did his friends not find out what he was up to or something?

Christine: I think you talk a lot about friends, and I think–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –maybe people like this don’t necessarily have like an inner circle that is either–

Em: Checking in on him.

Christine: –close or authentic enough or real friends enough or family enough, you know, to like really step in. And a lot of this started a-a– as a result of some serious tra– uh, trauma in his young years, and so it’s kind of hard to trace it back. Um, what happened was he was born in Colombia, and he and his brother were orphaned at a young age. And they ended up–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –living on the streets, um, together and fending for themselves for several years and – like deeply traumatic, uh, upbringing – was then adopted, um, by a family in Michigan. And he had actually been born José Moreno in Bogotá, and he and his brother, Daniel, had been adopted in 1977. And this was kind of like an– a middle class Michigan family, like nothing crazy. Um, but that extreme poverty he lived through, um, and his, his sort of like job responsibility at that time, caring for his little brother and making sure both of them survived, whatever happened to him, it’s just– It’s terrible to to read about, but whatever happened to him, um, manifested as this, uh, obsession with wealth and an obsession with this like need to present as this über wealthy–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –like totally different person.

Em: Well, I’m– I feel like part of it was probably like he created this like protector–

Christine: 100%.

Em: –who like never has to worry about money or whatever.

Christine: 100%.

Em: I mean, I, I feel for him that he probably learned how to be a– either overtly confident or a con artist or whatever–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –in the middle of just–

Christine: Survival.

Em: –trying to make sure his brother had food, and so he was like, “Oh, this worked, so I’m just gonna keep doing this.” And then it just kind of grew.

Christine: Totally.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Survival. Survival. And like– Yeah, I, I completely agree. Um, and it is– it’s really sad. Um, so yeah, he developed this lifelong obsession, um, with being wealthy, with like being someone else, you know, and even though he was adopted into this American family, um, it wasn’t quite the sort of like Hollywood picture that you might imagine as someone– as a kid from another country. Um, his parents got divorced when he was pretty young, his adoptive parents, and, um, that also sent him into another spiral. I mean, there was just a lot that we don’t necessarily know but that was clearly very linked to a lot of these behaviors. Um, for example, at just 12 years old– We’re starting off strong, okay? At 12 years old, he somehow manages, Catch Me If You Can style, to trick a Mercedes-Benz salesman into giving him a test drive of one of the cars. And he does this by claiming he’s a Saudi prince. And he’s–

Em: Whoa.

Christine: –starting off strong at 12 with this, and he starts a story. And he starts renting limousines, um, in town or in nearby towns, and he rides around in limousines, and anytime somebody asks like, “Who’s this rich teenager?”, um, he would just like flash some fake thing and be like, “Oh, I’m a p– I’m a royal prince,” you know. And it’s like–

Em: That’s such a, that’s such a jump– Like that’s such a, um–

Christine: Agreed.

Em: I wouldn’t have started at Saudi prince because it sounds so ridiculous.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I guess you have to be 12 and confident to do that. [chuckles]

Christine: You know, and I think that might be why it worked because it was so confident that it was almost like the first trick out of the book, it worked, and he just fucking ran with it. Like–

Em: I feel like if a 12-year-old came up to me though–

Christine: –for a long time.

Em: –and said, “I’m a Saudi prince,” I’d go, “You’re fucking lying.”

Christine: But he would never come up to you. He would never come up to you. He’s a Saudi prince. He wouldn’t fucking talk to you. Do you see what I mean? Like he literally–

Em: Good point.

Christine: –walks around embodying this. So it’s not like you see a 12-year-old. You see like a Saudi prince because he’s telling you or, or– at least in the minds of the people that he’s literally pulling the wool over their eyes in the way that– not literally, maybe– Um, he’s figuratively pulling the wool over their eyes, and they’re just like adults, and a 12-year-old has just totally– I mean, he must be good, right?

Em: He must be great.

Christine: And like you said, it’s probably this lifetime of– just childhood of trauma, like learning to survive and then like spinning it into something and it works and he runs with it. So this is what he was up to. He was, he was at 12 already creating like false realities. Of course, the people in his life knew he’s not a Saudi prince, and they’re like, you know, “Cut it out. You’re gonna get in trouble.” They probably see it as like troublemaking. His parents are getting divorced, so they’re distracted, you know, and I think he just kind of runs with it. So by the late ‘80s, early ‘90s, Gignac was like full-fledged con artist.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um, he had various aliases. Uh, one that he used was a very real man named Prince Adnan Khashoggi. And this guy– He’s now deceased, but he was a very real and extremely wealthy person. Um, he’s described as a “Saudi businessman and arms dealer known for his business dealings, extensive geopolitical influence, and opulent lifestyle, which earned him the moniker, ‘The Great Gatsby of the Middle East,’” end quote.

Em: [chuckles] Oh my god.

Christine: At the time of his death, he was estimated to be worth about $4 billion. And this is the guy Gignac, in his like 20s, is just pretending to be– or 30s, like pretending to be this guy.

Em: How much did he actually have? Do we know?

Christine: Like nothing.

Em: Like nothing nothing.

Christine: No-nothing.

Em: Wow. I didn’t know if like through this he ended up like kind of Catch Me– Catch Me If You Can-ing where he did actually have something sometimes.

Christine: I mean, I think, I think it– Well, he did. I mean he had a fucking $18,500 condo in Fisher Island.

Em: True.

Christine: Like he basically had everything.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But like what’s real, right? Like it’s like, okay, a credit card is a piece of plastic–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –but you can buy a house with it, you know? [chuckles] I mean– I don’t know if you can buy a house with it. I guess you can buy a house with it.

Em: Wow. Cool.

Christine: But he knew how to fucking– Yeah, he knew how to do it.

Em: Alright.

Christine: So he was very notorious actually for using stolen credit card numbers. That was like his main thing. Um, and remember this is like the ‘90s, so I feel like this is also before– I mean, I know it’s before a lot of the like, um–

Em: Advancements and like–

Christine: Yeah, fraud counter measures, those kind of things. Like check fraud– I think at this point they were like, “We got check fraud.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: And then now it’s like, “Uh, credit card numbers? Like, shit,” you know.

Em: I feel like all the check, the check fraud experts were feeling real good, and then all of a sudden–

Christine: I know.

Em: –credit cards came out, and they were like, “Goddamn it, we were so close.”

Christine: Like, “Jesus, we just got there.” Yeah, the fraudsters are a step ahead, I suppose. Um, in one early scheme, um, he even managed to like scam a fraternity house, and he, he told– he partied with them and told them he was like this– So maybe that’s what was happening to me when I was in college and I met those Saudi princes that were literally just scamming me.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I don’t know. Um, but he scammed a fraternity house. He scammed all s– number of people. He claimed he was like different ages. He– I mean, he just is like– He’s balling. He’s just balling. I don’t know. I don’t know what to tell you. He eventually–

Em: For a while, it sounds like he was living sky-high. He was–

Christine: Oh, he’s living fucking “sky-est” highest. Yes.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: Um, he eventually moves to California, and this is where he refines his MO. Okay. He checks into world-class hotels, like the Regent Beverly Wilshire. He runs up bills for thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of dollars, um, in rooms, in limousines, and then he just leaves.

Em: Hm.

Christine: And he tells people, “Oh, well, my family– my royal– the royal family in Saudi Arabia will, will take care of this,” and then like that’s that. And he leaves.

Em: Like, “Leave it on my tab.”

Christine: “Leave it on the tab.” Yeah.

Em: “Leave it, leave it on Daddy’s credit card. Daddy will take care of it.”

Christine: “Papa will take care of it.” Exactly. Uh, yeah. So this led to a cycle, and he didn’t get away with all of it. Like he’s not that mastermind.

Em: Okay.

Christine: He was arrested 11 times–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –and he was sent to prison several times, including a significant deal in 2004 that, um, left him in prison for like 15 years.

Em: Hm.

Christine: This motherfucker gets out, and he is back to business. He shows up in Fisher Island, and that’s how we get all the way back to the beginning of the story.

Em: I see.

Christine: Steps foot on Fisher Island, gets out, gets out of prison for like a lot of fraud.

Em: And nobody I’m assuming hears about any of this stuff because otherwise they–

Christine: No, no, he’s created like a whole new thing now. Yeah, exactly.

Em: Okay.

Christine: He’s just like stepped in as this totally– He– Yeah, exactly. I feel like people like this just cannot help themselves. Like they don’t know another way to live ’cause how could they?

Em: Truly.

Christine: Like he’s lived this way since he was like a baby.

Em: And he probably can justify it in his head of like, “Well, I’m surviving, so.”

Christine: I don’t think he even probably–

Em: If he had to.

Christine: –thinks about it.

Em: I don’t think he’s– feels any guilt. You know what I mean?

Christine: Yeah. I wonder– I feel like this is just like a– I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Okay. So he goes right back to business. He sets up this Fisher Island ruse. He drives his Ferrari with the fake diplomatic plates. Um, and then he decides he’s gonna find, [chuckles] he’s gonna find a new target. And you know, he’s not messing around with these like small fish anymore. He goes to billionaire Jeffrey Soffer, who at one point was married to supermodel Elle Macpherson, um, is also famous for being the owner of Miami’s iconic Fontainebleau Hotel. Um, and he is just this like über wealthy billionaire, okay? And like they showed a picture of him on one of the interviews or whatever, and I, I was like, “Oh, I know that– I’ve recognized that guy,” but like he’s just some other billionaire guy, okay? So [chuckles] he’s in sort of wrong place, wrong time.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And he sort of gets got because posing as “Sultan Bin Khalid Al Saud,” Gignac offers to buy a 30% stake in the resort for $440 million.

Em: Oh, Tony.

Christine: I know. I know. He was so–

[Gio barks.]

Christine: Sorry.

Em: Wow. Even Gio gets it.

Christine: Gio’s like, “What’s with this guy?”

Em: [chuckles] Is he napping?

Christine: No, the mail’s here, I think. Gio, cut it out. I see one butt curtain– It’s– The butt curtain st–

[Gio barks.]

Christine: Alright. Well, he tried. He tried his best. So apparently, he was so convincing when he went up to Jeffrey Soffer and was like, “Oh, I’d like to buy a 30% stake in your hotel,” that, um, he threw– that when– that whenever he was even slightly questioned or like put in– on the spot, he, he would throw a tantrum or he would like over-act in this like really intense way that scared people. So for one example, he threw a “violent tantrum” in an Aspen hotel lobby, claiming that his royal honor had been insulted.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And Soffer’s team actually apologized by gifting him a Cartier bracelet worth $50,000. And–

Em: “I guess I’ll take it.”

Christine: Exactly. And he– [sighs] “I guess. I mean, my pride is on the line, but I guess I’ll take it.” Um, apparently, he told Jeffrey Soffer and his team like, “You know, it’s customary where I’m from to give gifts to someone as you’re doing business dealings with them.” [chuckles]

Em: Oh, I’m sure. Yeah.

Christine: So they purportedly gave him like almost $200,000 in just presents.

Em: Is that a real th– like thing? Or did he just make that up and nobody looked it up?

Christine: Uh, he’s just making it up.

Em: That’s crazy that nobody would look that up before they start–

Christine: I mean, what do you look it up, like “giving gifts to a business partner”?

Em: Sure.

Christine: I don’t know. It’s just like– I– He just is so–

Em: I would argue that that’s like so against the rules ’cause of like a conflict of interest or something. It’s like, “Well, now I’m– You’re, you’re bribing me.” No? I don’t know.

Christine: No way. With these rich people? Bribing? They don’t–

Em: [chuckles] Yeah, you’re right.

Christine: I mean, listen. They blackmail. They don’t bribe.

Em: Fair enough.

Christine: Um, okay. So you’re on to it though because Jeffrey Soffer does start to wise up.

Em: Okay. I was gonna say this Jeff guy is– needs to get it together.

[Gio barks.]

Em: And Gio agrees.

[Gio barks.]

Christine: [laughs] Gio, goddamn it.

[Gio barks.]

Em: He’s like, “Jeffrey, Jeffrey–“

[Gio barks.]

Em: “–figure it out.”

Christine: “Boo!”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And it like– It’s like–

[Gio barks.]

Em: Feels like the old days.

[Gio barks.]

Christine: Doesn’t it though? Doesn’t it just? And you’re like sweating to death over there, just like the old days.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I got a package.

Em: You did?

Christine: Ooh, it’s my new yoga mat for qigong. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] For all your martial arts.

Christine: For all of my many mar– [laughs] for all my martial art and my watercolor art. Okay.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’m an artist. What can I say?

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Christine: Okay. Red flags start showing up.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Jeffrey has got to get it together, and he starts to. Okay? And he puts the pieces together. He’s not a total idiot, okay? During a dinner out with Soffer, um, this, this devout Muslim prince, as he claims to be, he starts ordering bacon and talking about how much he loves bacon and other pork products and prosciutto, etc. And he’s just loving the stuff, and Soffer is like, “Aren’t you Muslim? Aren’t you like devout Muslim?”

Em: Mm.

Christine: And he’s just getting weird vibes. Okay? He also is suspicious because he’s realizing that Gignac only rents a single condo, but he claims to own the entire 54-unit building that he invites people to.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And when cornered or pushed into this, right– And he’s throwing these fits. He's getting these presents. But like we said, it can only go so far. [sighs] It gets weird, okay? Um, he starts getting so bold in his lies that it’s almost like– it’s like– People like this, like we said, they, they don’t know how to stop. They’re gonna get too close to the sun.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It’s just– It’s bound to happen. And until then, like you said, he’s fucking flying high.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: He’s living large, okay. He, at one point, while he’s living on Fisher Island, convinces American Express [chuckles] to issue him a platinum card with $200 million as a credit limit, um, under the name of Prince Al-Saud, claiming that his previous card had been lost and that if they failed to supply him with a new one, his father, the king, would be extremely angry.

Em: Also like what– I would start getting nervous that the actual king would fucking hear about this and be like–

Christine: I know.

Em: –“I don’t know him.”

Christine: You don’t mess around with these fucking people.

Em: Like if you’re making, if you’re making these kinds of moves, you really are on someone’s radar that does know the king.

Christine: You are on a list. Y– If you’re pretending to be a multi-billionaire, you’re on a list. If you are a multi-billionaire, you’re on a list. And if you’re pretending to be one, oh, they’re looking at you, you know.

Em: Someone knows. Yeah.

Christine: And like just the weird stuff started to catch up. So he did this thing with the AMEX, and he, um– One of the things he had been arrested for those 11 times earlier was, um, he apparently attempted to charge $29,000 of department store fees to the amount of the real Prince Al-Saud, which is a real person by the way. And he ended up, um– That was that 77-month conviction he was put away for, but he did this a lot. He had credit lines at, um, uh, department stores, and he would go in and say like, “This is the royal tab.” [chuckles] I mean, like it’s just like crazy that you could just do that, but it worked. Um, he claimed during his interrogation for that, for that first, uh, first stint in pri– no, not first stint in prison, but longest stint in prison that he had been offered a line of credit from the Saudi royal family as hush money because he, um, had had an illicit homosexual affair with an actual Saudi prince. So when he gets cornered, he doesn’t only double down, he like adds even more context that’s like also made up.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So the– Just to give you a spoiler, like there is no connection to any Saudi prince. I mean, we don’t know. Maybe he literally hooked up with some guy that was, but we– There’s no real tangible evidence of that. And–

Em: That would be a crazy story though if two people claiming to be a Saudi prince hooked up with each other, and neither of them were.

Christine: Oh! [chuckles]

Em: That’d be delicious.

Christine: They’re like, “You too?”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: Oh my god. Wow, a match made in hell. [laughs]

Em: Hell, yeah. [laughs]

Christine: Um, so the red flags, the pork, the, the condo where he’s like only in one condo, even though he claims to own the whole building, and it’s like, mm, something’s off, right? And he’s kind of making up these stories like, “Oh, the real reason I had credit at this one place was ’cause I had an affair with this prince, whatever.” Okay. “My dad’s gonna be so mad,” and like people are just starting to get, get, get wise. So when Soffer finally says like, “Hey–“ His team at least says like, “Hey, we’re not feeling good about this, and we feel like you need to p– like s– show up with some more details, information, and you need to prove yourself a little more,” he throws another fucking fit. Wouldn’t you know it, he starts taking “calls” (I’m doing huge air quotes) from the “State Department.”

Em: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. [chuckles]

Christine: I’m gonna do more air quotes here. Um, he speaks in “Arabic.”

Em: Oh boy.

Christine: Yeah. He uses codes like “Zulu Red Echo 33” that mean nothing.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I mean, it’s just like, whoa, we’re back in middle school, right? Like he is fucking trying hard here.

Em: This does feel like in middle school when everyone’s just a diabolical liar and like– [laughs]

Christine: Just diabolical, and you don’t give it up. You don’t give it up.

Em: Yeah, yeah.

Christine: He claims he had a computer chip around his neck so that the Secret Service could track him for his own safety, you know.

Em: Y– At the very least say it’s implanted in you, so no one can see it.

Christine: Uh, good point.

Em: Otherwise, it’d be like, “Oh, show me. I wanna see the tracker immediately.”

Christine: I mean, he probably was like, “Here it is,” you know.

Em: Yeah. “You can’t see the tracker in it though. It’s like fa–“

Christine: Well, you know, and he has these robes, and so he’s like, “Oh, it’s in here,” you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: I– And the ruse finally ended, right, in November 2017 because the red flags just added up. And he was intercepted because now the FBI’s got an interest in this fella. Um, I imagine the CIA has gotten interested in this fella. We’re talking international situations here. Um, he was intercepted at JFK airport, and in the interrogation room, he’s still pretending to speak Arabic.

Em: Girl.

Christine: I mean, he’s making up sounds. It’s like, dude.

Em: This is the moment you go, “I was kidding. Ha-ha.”

Christine: Like, the FBI knows how to speak– Do you know that the CIA knows how to speak Arabic?

Em: Right.

Christine: It’s like their whole thing. Like, don’t, don’t. Give it a rest. Okay? I don’t know if he knew any Arab– I don’t know. But when, when I watched these interviews on– the like little captions say “pretending to speak Arabic,” and I was like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –“That’s all I need to know.” Okay. So he’s intercepted at JFK. Um, he’s trying to keep up the act and say like, oh, he has this connection, and, and finally, the agent says, “Your dog, Foxy. We have someone who’s gonna take a look at her.” And he fucking loses it. He like brea–

Em: Oh, that would absolutely send me into a full-blown spiral.

Christine: –breaks down. He’s like, “Someone needs to take care of Foxy.” And they’re like, they’re like, “This is our in.” And they’re like, “We’ll take care of Foxy. She’s safe. Just tell us everything, and we’ll make sure she’s taken care of in her little Cadillac bed or whatever the fuck.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Uh, that was his like only genuine affection, right? Like his only real kind of–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –like soft spot, I guess.

Em: And also I would add that as someone who– his whole childhood was having to take care of–

Christine: Mm-hmm. Aw.

Em: –a dependent, like this had to have–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –fucked with him a little bit of like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –he’s not being a protector anymore.

Christine: “That’s my baby.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they’re like, “Give it a rest. We’re gonna take care of Foxy. Just fucking drop it.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And finally, he does. Uh, in March 2019, he pleaded guilty to charges including wire fraud, impersonating a diplomat. Um, he was sentenced to over 18 years in federal prison. He’s still incarcerated today, and he has been ordered to pay back approximately $7 million to his victims.

Em: [gasps]

Christine: [chuckles] And I’m like–

Em: I don’t think he’s gonna.

Christine: –“Good luck. I don’t know where that’s gonna come from.” Um, but I just imagine like it’s exhausting to live like– I mean, of course it is. Like to live like this with getting Cartier bracelets and being like, “Now I have to– Now I have something, and I’m gonna lose it, and I have to prete–“ I mean, it’s just like exhausting, dude.

Em: Yeah. I can’t imagine. Is– Like what is– How did he– What did he say? Do we know what he said to the cops of like all of it’s fake? Or like did they have to– I wonder if they had to slowly weasel it out of him, and he kept trying to hold on to at least one thread or something or–

Christine: You know, I don’t–

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: –totally know. I think he kind of clammed up. I think he was sort of like– I think people dug into his background. He couldn’t like deny that he was a, quote unquote, (this is how it was framed) “orphaned”–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: He and his brother were “orphaned” in Bogotá. And it’s like, well, once that’s out there, like, what are you gonna say?

Em: Well, I’m–

Christine: You know, and I think–

Em: –super curious now what the king of– the Saudi king must, uh, must think of him ’cause surely he’s found out now about this, right?

Christine: You think? I feel like probably a lot of people pull shit like this. Maybe not a billion dollars, but.

Em: Maybe he’s used to it. I don’t know, but– I don’t–

Christine: He’s probably fucking used to it. [chuckles] He’s probably like, “Not another one.” You know?

Em: [laughs] I do wonder how that works in a legal system where like if you’re in jail and you owe millions of dollars, like they cannot expect you to ever be able to actually pay that off. Like how does that work?

Christine: No, I mean–

Em: Not that you would know.

Christine: –I think that’s like o-ove– [sighs] I mean, I think it depends on the situation, and I think it’s like if you have assets that gets, you know, taken into consideration.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And I think, um, that’s probably a whole lot of legal teams trying to figure out what you own and what’s yours and how– what the value is and–

Em: That's very crazy.

Christine: –then probably once you get out, you know, you’re on the hook for that and–

Em: You’re probably just like–

Christine: I don’t know.

Em: –in debt for the rest of your life, trying to pay people back.

Christine: I mean–

Em: Crazy.

Christine: –he probably already was, so. Kind of. [chuckles]

Em: Oh, did we ever hear about Foxy? Like I can’t– Like if you’re in–

Christine: No, I mean I think someone just took– They– He– They pro– As far as I know, they were like, “If you give this whole ruse up, we’ll take care of Foxy.”

Em: I hope he got to see Foxy. I feel so– I’m like so– I feel so bad about Foxy wondering like where her owner went and everything. Not that I’m worried– I feel bad for him, but I feel bad for Fox– for Foxy.

Christine: I’m sure she’s fine. She’s living a fucking royal life, man.

Em: [sighs] Well, good story. I love ones where people don’t die.

Christine: I know. It is refreshing, isn’t it?

Em: It feels like a, a safe space to have my thoughts–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –and not go, “Well, maybe I should keep that to myself ’cause what if something bad happens to them?”

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and you can say things about people even if something bad happens to them.

Em: I know. I just get a little weird ’cause I don’t know– I’m like, “What if I find out something–“ I don’t know. I just always get extra like on edge. This– It feels more relaxing to know people aren’t gonna die in the next 30 minutes of my ears.

Christine: That's fair. You don’t wanna misstep with your– Yeah, yeah. I understand what you’re saying. Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, but yeah, just kind of like–

Em: Good storytelling.

Christine: –another troubled man in this world.

Em: Ugh. A-all of a sudden, I feel like the Saudi king. I’m like, “Another one?”

Christine: [chuckles] Not another one.

Em: Um, what are you up to? You look very, uh, poised and posh right now with your legs crossed and your arms folded.

Christine: Thank you so much.

Em: Are you mad at yourself or me or the Saudi king?

Christine: No, it’s– Yeah, definitely the world. But no, really– No, no, it’s really just– Remember at the beginning of the episode when I adjusted my tatas–

Em: Mm-hmm. They, they need to be adjusted again?

Christine: And we tal– we talked about bras and stuff, and I, I almost said then, but I didn’t really get a chance to. But yeah, I notice when I have this camera on, I do start to get a little, um, lumpy, you know?

Em: Sure.

Christine: It’s an angle where it’s just like a little like– It– It’s distracting to me watching it. Like I don’t care what I look like really, but it’s like I just get distracted, so then I catch myself just being like, “Just fuck it. Like put your arms over,” you know, and then you can focus.

Em: Oh, oh. Well, you, you look stunning, babes. But, um–

Christine: Well, thanks. It’s not like– I also need new bras, but that’s fine. That’s another conversation for another day.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That’s another Yappy Hour c– talk.

Em: Well, I’ll let your– you and your little boobies run away. Um, I–

Christine: Thank you. [laughs]

Em: It’s time to go officially.

Christine: They’re gonna– [laughs] Whee-uh!

Em: [laughs] And– But–

Christine: All over.

Em: –we’ll see you next week where I finish, hopefully, this stupid Zak Bagans saga.

Christine: [laughs] Don’t hold your breath, people.

Em: And–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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