E483 Caterpillar Surprises and Tamagotchi Funerals

TOPICS: THE EGYPTIAN THEATRE PT. 1, TONY PARSONS

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The Egyptian Theatre in Boise, Idaho (photo taken by Em while visiting)

It’s Episode 483 and we’re channeling our inner emo kid today. First Em brings us Part One of the many haunted Egyptian Theatres starting with the one in Boise, Idaho! Then Christine covers the timely case of Tony Parsons, recently featured on Netflix. And maybe next time we’ll catch you at the dog park spelling bee… and that’s why we drink!

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Transcript

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[intro music]

Em: [sighs] Oh, Christine.

Christine: [deep inhale]

Em: Christine?

Christine: [sighs] Yes?

Em: [sighs] I don’t know.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: It– I’m having a–

Christine: It’s a lot of breath noises today. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] I’m having a weird day. I don’t know. I’m in like a funk for the last like two days.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, so I don’t really– I don’t know. I wanna– I’m happy to be here, but I’m also like– Bleh. Like I just kind of feel like Silly Putty. You know what I mean?

Christine: I totally get that. You know, yesterday, I said I was walking around feeling like a bruise.

Em: I love that. I mean, I’m so sorry.

Christine: It–

Em: My condolences.

Christine: Yeah. No, thank you. I loved it too. I was like, “Wow, that’s so poetic of me."

Em: If I were 16 and saw that in someone’s Xanga–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –I’d be like, “They’re going places.”

Christine: That’s why we never met at– as high schoolers. It would have been really ugly for everybody. [laughs]

Em: [chuckles] It would have been– You would have been too powerful ’cause I would have been like–

Christine: We would have done something bad. Like we would have like made a fake MySpace.

Em: –“Can you sign my bruise?”–

Christine: Yeah, we w–

Em: –you know?

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Now, that’s gonna be my new emo hit single: “Can you sign my bruise please?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That’s fucking insane. I’m writing that down.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Eva, write that down please. It’s too good to waste.

Em: That does feel like someone’s like hidden secret track that never made it on the–

Christine: It’s good.

Em: –the album.

Christine: It shouldn’t be hidden. We should bring it to the surface.

Em: Like a bruise.

Christine: Can– Oh my god. Hold on. Hold that thought.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: This magic is flowing. [writing] “Can you sign my bruise?” I’m gonna find this tomorrow and be like, “What the fuck is going on?” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] I feel like you’re only gonna find that when you’re already like deliriously sick or something–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and be like, “Am I even reading this right?”

Christine: Like, “Who–” I’d be like, “Blaise, why did you write this to me?” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Um, well, I’m sorry you feel like a bruise. Did anything, uh, cause that or you just kind of–

Christine: Oh, yeah. Everything, you know?

Em: Okay.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Yeah.

Christine: You know? You know when everything’s just like punching you in the face and you’re like, “Wait, that’s cool”? So.

Em: Yeah, I do. Yeah. Um–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –but a bruise is a perfect way to describe that. I–

Christine: You know, you’re just like kinda overly t– sensitive. Like things just kind of hurt a little more that day everywhere, you know?

Em: I think I’ve just– Yeah. I mean, I think mine has been more like I feel like a bruise on the inside, but on the outside, I’ve been like just like sensory nightmare. Like every sound is too loud now.

Christine: Ohh, yeah.

Em: Like Allison today, like I was so mean to her– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and she’s gone now, so I can’t apologize yet. But literally, she was like just trying to leave the house, but she wasn’t doing it fast enough for me. And I, I was like, “Can you leave?” I like– I was so mean. I like–

Christine: [laughs] You sound like Leona talking to my mom: “You can leave now.”

Em: [laughs] And I wasn’t trying to be mean. I was just like– I was overwhelmed, and I was like, “Once she’s gone, some of the noises will be gone, and then it’ll be better, and–”

Christine: I think we can all relate to that.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It’s like you just kind of snap. Like it’s like a– There’s– Something has to give, you know?

Em: Yeah. And luckily, she looked at me and was like, “It’s time I leave.” [chuckles] She’s like, “I gotta go.”

Christine: She’s like, “Actually, I’d rather do nothing more than leave. Goodbye.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But no, it just– it’s a weird– I don’t know what’s going on. Maybe it’s just like I’m– I don’t know. It feels like, uh–

Christine: Listen, Uranus is in Gemini. Things are topsy-turvy. It’s, it’s a wild time. Um, i– Well, is that why you drink though? Is it Allison’s– and her delayed departure? Or is it just the general malaise?

Em: I think the general malaise. I–

Christine: Mm.

Em: 'Cause part of me is like, “Maybe I just need to leave the house,” but then when I leave the house, I’m like, “Ugh, I’d rather just be home.” Maybe I’m just depressed.

Christine: Then you’re in the June gloom.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah, I was gonna say, usually that kind of, yeah, points to something.

Em: One of the, one of the things that made me happy this week though, uh, to try to keep it happy– Oh, and then my Tamagotchi died as I told you yesterday or two days ago or whatever.

Christine: Oh, yeah. That’s a bummer.

Em: And it was my longest streak I’ve had with one. I bought a new one, so w–

Christine: Do they die forever? You can’t like reset them?

Em: So I did because I think I’m depressed. I think you could probably ju– I think the battery just died– [chuckles]

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –and I was so lazy I just [whispers] bought another one.

Christine: Ohh. Okay, okay.

Em: So I–

Christine: Where’s the other one? Is it in a drawer? Is it like out the window?

Em: Um, I buried her in my drawer.

Christine: Oh.

Em: And then I was just like–

Christine: You really– I thought you meant you literally buried her. I– That took me a second to understand that you are not literally saying you buried her. And I would have said–

Em: No, I think I was–

Christine: –“Okay.”

Em: I was getting bored of, of her look, and so I just needed a, a new–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –a new look. So–

Christine: Oh, so you replaced your own child.

Em: Yeah. But then the last one was such a long streak. This is another thing that like I think comes with the like– it’s like the mild symptoms of disinterest or depression or whatever it would be. But, um, I got a new Tamagotchi, and I was like, “[sighs] But the other one I just spent so much time on.”

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “Like now I don’t really wanna touch this one.” Like I just have–

Christine: Oh, wow. You do sound like Leona today.

Em: Yeah. I think I’m just feeling whiny, you know?

Christine: Yeah, I get it. I mean, especially with the sensory stuff, you know, that’ll push you over the edge.

Em: Yeah. I was really proud of myself that I kept it going for so long, but–

Christine: Well, good for you. I mean, don’t let that, don’t let that streak be, be, uh, diminished, you know?

Em: I’ll try. Anyway–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I don’t know. I’m feeling– Oh–

Christine: What, what are you drinking? Is there Peppy? Something Peppy you got–

Em: No, it’s just–

Christine: –for yourself? Aw.

Em: –water. It’s just water.

Christine: Shit, shit.

Em: But I was gonna say the thing that makes me happy is that yesterday, I went to a coffee shop, and the cashier there– which, by the way, shout-out, um, Three Sisters Coffee. They’re– Actually, they’re listeners of the show. And, um–

Christine: I thought you were gonna say, “They’re actually three sisters,” and I was like, “Whoa!” [laughs]

Em: They’re actually three sisters. Um, but they’re, they’re like one of my favorite coffee shops in the area. And I went there, and whoever their cashier was that day, um, they were so excited. Every person who was like up next and paying for something– [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –I guess like the local paper had just come out, and they were like, “Oh, wait. Can I read your horoscope to you?”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And every person got their horoscope read to them when they were paying.

Christine: Oh, I love that.

Em: I was like–

Christine: Oh my god, that’s so fun.

Em: –“This energy was exactly what I needed.” And then it ended up turning into like– It was very like– It felt very small town because it made everybody in the coffee shop talk about like their sign and like–

Christine: Aww.

Em: –what their horoscope said. And then you could hear like the baristas and the people sitting down all being like, “Well, what, what’s your Big Three?” “Well, what’s your Big Three?” It was very LA, very LA.

Christine: And then you all ended up on Overheard LA is where I was going next. Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Probably so.

Christine: Definitely on Instagram. Yeah.

Em: Anyway, that’s the reason why I drink this week. But, um, why do you drink, Christine?

Christine: Oh, I love that. Well, well, you have water. I actually got myself– This is my new thing. Okay? I’ve got myself a little matcha. Um–

Em: Love.

Christine: I’m in the new ma– I’m in the matcha zone finally. Took me like several years to actually try it and get into it, but, um–

Em: Not there yet.

Christine: You’re not there yet? I mean, I’m trying to lower my caffeine intake, so the coffee– You know, I’m trying to kind of do less coffee in the afternoon. Um, so let me just open this so it’s not a sound nightmare for everybody. Hold on. Cincinat– or Kentucky still has, uh, uh, good old plastic.

[Christine takes the plastic lid off of her to-go cup of matcha.]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: You know, everything’s still really hardcore plastic over here.

Em: You don’t have the sugar cane straws yet?

Christine: Mm-mmm. We still got plastic bags in grocery stores.

Em: I didn’t– We canceled that. Um–

Christine: Like–

Em: –I think in the, in the last couple months, I think LA is now all paper.

Christine: I think they canceled that a long time ago.

Em: Did they? In the last few weeks? I’ve noticed. [laughs]

Christine: Oh, I see.

Em: Who knows.

Christine: Okay. Well, I think the thing was that you had to pay for them. We still have free plastic bags.

Em: I see.

Christine: Like they just like load them up, and you get like six bags with one thing of eggs in it. And I’m like, “Okay, thanks.” Um, anyway, why do I drink this week? Well, you know what? I’m really excited about this. We don’t often do sort of like, um, immersive sponsors, but NOCD, um, is so much more to me than just a sponsor. They are, um, a really important service, um, for people who suffer with OCD, which is kind of what we’re discussing today – not kind of, it is literally what we’re discussing today. Um, and they reached out and said, “Hey, we’d love to do some– like a little segment,” and I said, “Oh my gosh, like normally that kinda doesn’t flow with the show, but like hello, this is perfect. We talk about these things anyway.” Um, and I’m just such a fan of what they do that I thought this was perfect. And, uh, I thought I would just, you know, say this week I drink because, um, OCD is really, really, really, really tough. And it’s like when you’re in those places where things are even harder, like you’re saying, like the general like malaise or just the day-to-day stress, then like OCD finds the vulnerable spots and like rears its ugly head, at least for me.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And that’s like my experience. And so, interestingly, one of the reasons this podcast even got started is because I had OCD. [chuckles] We di– I didn’t know this. I had not been diagnosed, but–

Em: Wait, this is my first time hearing this, I think.

Christine: So I really wasn’t– I– So the re– [chuckles] I guess it’s sort of tangential, but what I mean to say is that my interest in true crime sort of began–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –as a result of my OCD because it– I would fixate on true crime as this sort of control, right? Like I would–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –I would, I would watch all this true crime and consume all this true crime media and say, “Okay. Well, n– the more I understand this, the less likely it’ll happen to me.” Like I had this very, um– And I don’t talk about that often on the show, but that is actually what my therapist back in 2018– Um, so the year after we started the show, my therapist was like, “I’m gonna suggest something gently, and it sounds a lot like maybe you are exhibiting signs of OCD,” and I said, “Well, that doesn’t make sense, ’cause–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: You know, I mean OCD for us growing up was like–

Em: Yeah, some–

Christine: –Adrian Monk, you know.

Em: Like the e-extreme– you know, the stereotype, all that.

Christine: The tidiness, the cleanliness, the washing the hands–

Em: Well–

Christine: –the checking the stove, and those are things that people do, right? But–

Em: Yeah. I feel like a lot of us grew up thinking like OCD was kind of like the butt of a joke if you were doing something–

Christine: Right.

Em: –a little like overzealous or whatever.

Christine: Right. And it became like kind of just a part of the vernacular to say like, “I’m so OCD,” you know. And we all, we all kind of have seen that happen. But, um, in real life, it’s actually just so much scarier. Like it, it’s so much internal happening that you don’t necessarily realize like how, how damaging it can be until you start–

Em: Like what were– Can I–

Christine: –kind of unpacking it. Yeah?

Em: If, if you feel comfortable, what–

Christine: Of course.

Em: –like what were the signs that were obvious enough to your therapist in 2018 that–

Christine: Oh, yeah. Okay. I love this. So that’s a great question because I really fought her on it. I was like, “I don’t think that makes sense. Like I don’t have OCD,” and she said, “Okay, you know, we’ll talk about it.” But she had actually done her dissertation on very specific signs of OCD– [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –so if anyone knew, it was her.

Em: She was like, “We’ll, we’ll bring this– We’ll circle back.”

Christine: She’s like, “Let me bring my PhD along.” [chuckles] Yeah, “We’ll circle back.” Um, but basically, she asked if there were ever times that I took actions that fell out of my control, the sort of like compulsions, because I felt that they would make some sort of difference–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –you know, like exhibit a control over my life somehow. So, for example, when I was little, I would picture– This is– Trigger warning for the whole show, but like specifically for, for, um, intrusive thoughts. Um, I would picture my mom– Every time she would go to the grocery store and I would watch my brother and sister, um, I would envision her dying in a really horrible fiery car wreck because if I did that, very viscerally and really believed it, then she would come home safely. And–

Em: Hm.

Christine: –like the worst possible, you know, fun little trap I invented because then, of course, she’d come home and I’d go, “Excellent. I saved her.” I mean, I started this–

Em: Right.

Christine: –when I was like six–

Em: And, and then that just–

Christine: –or no, four actually. Yeah. And it–

Em: And then that just makes you think like, “Well, the last time I actually did save her, so now I have to keep doing it.” I see.

Christine: It’s– Yep. Magical thinking. And then you start kind of– You build patterns. And your brain is just trying to find like structure and safety, and so it goes, “Okay. Well, you know, if you tap the drawer every time you close it, like you’ll be–“ and you don’t necessarily even consciously realize it, right? So it’s like–

Em: Mm-hm.

Christine: –“Oh, I have to turn the s– the light switch off six times to know that I turned off the light,” or, uh, you know, I used to check, as you know, under every bed and inside every closet for murderers because if I didn’t, then I would get murdered. And I was like so sure of it that like at hotels, I would be– I mean, I found Lemon this way. This is literally how I found–

Em: I recall.

Christine: Oh my god. How did I not think to bring Lemon into the equation? That’s literally how I found Lemon was through my OCD.

Em: I know. I know. I remember y–

Christine: Wow.

Em: But at the time, I– It’s also– It’s an– I don’t know if I’m really saying anything all that profound here, but sometimes I guess OCD can look like signs that other people will happily excuse away because it’s– it justifi–

Christine: Oh, absolutely.

Em: –it’s justified by the environment. Like, yeah, we’re all staying in a, a weird Airbnb. Like I’m not gonna judge you for looking in the closets.

Christine: Of course.

Em: And so then it–

Christine: And like checking under the bed and–

Em: –probably affirms you even more.

Christine: Especially with the true crime, right? So then I would dig into the true crime, and then I would say, “Okay, if I–“ I mean, this is one of the worst ones. This is the one where my therapist said, “We need to work on this,” which is where exposure and response prevention comes in, which is what NOCD specializes in. Um, and ERP therapy really saved me because I was doing so much true crime research at that point and working a full-time job. And I told her – [chuckles] I’ve never said this before on the show, but it’s true – um, the biggest, the biggest sticking point for me at the time that was almost like– It was like activating all my, um, autoimmune stuff. Like I was so sick. What I did was every time I researched a story, I would envision myself as the victim–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –or the family member of the victim, and I would– Like I did with my mom when she was young. I would envision the entire thing like as if this were to happen to Blaise or my mom or my child or, you know, and so–

Em: Took a toll on you, yeah.

Christine: Yeah. And it was like every story, I would have to like– And I would tell her, “Well, that’s e– that’s empathy,” and she would be like, “No, that’s, you know, it’s more– it’s, it’s something beyond that. Like you’re telling yourself it’s empathy. You’re s– You’re making it make sense in your own head, but in reality, like y– why do you do that?” And I– We got to the core of it, and it was that I thought, “Well, if I know all the ways that someone can be harmed, I can avoid all of the ways that someone can be harmed.” And it like, you know–

Em: Which is how so many, women especially, get into true crime, by the way. Like that’s very common.

Christine: Yes, it’s, it’s– It is like a control thing, right?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: That’s at least what I believe. Yeah, 100%. And so it really wrapped up– And that became as I re– recognized it and was able to like pull away and realize like, oh, that magical thinking isn’t real, you can appreciate a story and empathize with a story without like putting yourself in the story. In fact, I think that almost takes away from the story, right?

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um, that just became almost, um, a turning point for me. Well, no, it did become a turning point for me, and I’ve worked on my OCD ever since. And it really opened up avenues to understand my anxiety, my depression. I think a lot of that was– Like they’re all very closely related.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, and so anyway, I’ve just loved NOCD for as many years as I’ve known it, which is several. And, uh, it’s, it’s just a really cool resource. So if you do know anyone who may be going through this or if you’re hearing this and going, “Oh, boy, that sounds familiar,” um, you know, just check in on NOCD. It’s a really, really open, safe, um, environment. They’re– They– It’s very professional, and they, they, they know what they’re doing, and not every therapist necessarily is experienced in that way, so. We love NOCD. We’re so thankful for them, and, um, I’m just really, uh– This was one of my like very– I, I just was like, “I’m in. I’m in. Sign me up,” you know, so.

Em: Perfect. Perfect. Well, I– I’m, I’m glad you’re doing better and not suffering in silence. It sounds like you didn’t even know–

Christine: Thank you.

Em: –you were suffering.

Christine: That’s right. That’s the craziest part is so much of it is internal that you don’t even realize, and then when you start saying it out loud you’re like, “Other– Do other people–“ and then you– Yeah. That’s when it kind of becomes more of like community. I know the Ladies & Tangents, um, gals have talked about OCD a lot, and of course, at– I went to Jeri’s bachelorette, and like everyone was like, “Oh my god, what type of OCD do you have?” You know– [unintelligible] [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um–

Em: I mean, I a– I originally only thought you had the like the tapping on the, on the Google Drive–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –but that’s–

Christine: Oh, yeah. I always forgot that was even– Yeah.

Em: Well, we– Christine and I shared, uh–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –would share on Drive like our, uh, like documents and stuff, and so I would see her tapping and highlighting the text–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –that she was talking about all the time, but to a point where like I couldn’t read–

Christine: No, you can’t. It’s in-insufferable.

Em: –’cause it was– And so I was like, “What are you doing? Are you–” I thought the computer was glitching. But had I not even known or seen that because of Google Drive showing it to me, I don’t think I would even know that you suffer at all. Like it’s– it–

Christine: Yeah, there’s little things that I didn’t– that to this day– like you just said that, and I went, “Oh, I didn’t really ever relate that to OCD.” [laughs] But yeah, you’re totally right.” Like–

Em: I just– It was like my only insight into it at all.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And then at the time, when I was like, “What happened?” And you were just like, “Oh, I ju– OCD.” And it just–

Christine: I’m sure that’s what it is.

Em: But–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: But I just took it as like a, oh, just like a, like a habit or something. But, but it really– I mean, we’ve known each other for a long time, and I barely know the surface of what you go through with that. So like it is very much an isolating–

Christine: Yeah, it can be is– totally isolating.

Em: –situation.

Christine: That’s true. Yeah. And I, I– So I’ve jumped on the experience to, to chat about it because I thought, you know, can’t hurt to, to–

Em: Help others.

Christine: –discuss things more, you know, and yeah, help anyone who might be feeling anything, um, even remotely OCD, whether– And you know what, sometimes it is the hygiene, you know, and the, the t– that’s– that also manifests. I mean, you watch things like Hoarders–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and now I’m realizing I had a hoarding OCD tendency. Anyway, it’s fine. This is for the next O– NOCD segment–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –we’ll do another time. [laughs] We could do a whole podcast probably. But anyway, um, thank you, NOCD. And that is why I drink, um, and that is why I go to therapy, and that is why I love ERP therapy. Um–

Em: Great. Good.

Christine: And then that’s that. That’s that on that.

Em: Well, I am very happy for you. This is also li– for the thousandth time in our lives, let’s normalize therapy.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And shout-out to all of the therapists out there who are taking care of us because society needs you so badly all the time.

Christine: [clapping] While also taking care of themselves, you know.

Em: While also taking care of themselves. I, uh, I have therapy tomorrow, and I can’t wait to use “the bruise.” Uh–

Christine: Oh my god. I used it this morning, and I said that, and my therapist was– didn’t even like flinch, and I’m like, “Am I that poetic that I don’t even make you flinch anymore?”

Em: [laughs] You just went right into the skin. Yeah. I–

Christine: Just said you just, you just feel me that deeply, you know.

Em: I’m very excited to use “the bruise” metaphor? Simile? Um, analogy.

Christine: Oh my god, thank you so much for asking. Um, a simile is when you use “like” or “as,” and a metaphor is the other one, right?

Em: Yeah. I’ve always thought–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –metaphor is the more poetic one ’cause you have to like think about it. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah. 'Cause you just say what it is, and then the other person has to figure it out.

Em: Simile is, is holding your hand through it.

Christine: That’s right.

Em: Yeah. The lazy analogy.

Christine: Simile, “simiwho,” you know.

Em: “I’m like a bruise.” Uh-uh. “I am a bruise.” Oh…

Christine: Please. [groans]

Em: Wow. I felt it.

Christine: “Poke me like a bruise.”

Em: Um–

Christine: “Can you, can you sign my bruise?” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Wait, you didn’t tell us what you are drinking, did you?

Christine: I did.

Em: You–

Christine: My matcha.

Em: Your matcha, your matcha. That’s right.

Christine: Which is new to me. And I’m like, I’m like your– I’m like a, a parent who just discovered the hip new thing. I’m like, “Guys, have you heard about this?” You know?

Em: I, I, I want to like it so bad purely for the color. Just tastes like I’m licking dirt.

Christine: It’s kind of like eating grass. And like for me, I find that an enjoyable experience. And I think it’s ano– it’s one of those tastes you–

Em: It’s like you’re a gopher.

Christine: –either like or you don’t. Yeah.

Em: I, I– [sighs] I don’t, I don’t know who tried it first and went, “This is really killer.” Like someone– It’s– I feel like it’s like you have to have like the–

Christine: Well, it’s sort of a green tea. So it’s like the– It’s like a green tea, but then a little more–

Em: Yeah. But I feel like–

Christine: –piquant.

Em: I feel like it’s like, um– [sighs] What’s the right word? I don’t know. I don’t know. I’ll think of it later, I guess. I know it’s like people have been drinking it forever and ever and ever. But like–

Christine: Mm.

Em: Oh, it’s like the cilantro gene to me where I’m like–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –I feel like you either have it or you don’t.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: And I do not.

Christine: Yeah. And I, I don’t think I did for a long time. I think it was not for me.

Em: It–

Christine: It’s only now that I’m like kind of in a diff–

Em: It’s an acquired taste.

Christine: I think it is an acquired taste, and it– I don’t know. I just got to a point when I was like, “Maybe I’ll try it and I’ll like it.” And I had some lavender in it, like how you do–

Em: [groans]

Christine: –and I was like, “This shit is good.”

Em: Lavender makes everything less horrible.

Christine: That kind of helped. Yeah. Then it– I– tastes like I was eating a whole garden.

Em: Mm. Yeah, that I can’t do.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: You gotta– It’s a ta– You gotta do a tasteful lavender pump. A bop-bop.

Christine: Yeah, it can’t be there too much. That really ruins it for me. Um, anyway–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: –but yes, that is my beverage of choice today.

Em: I’m proud of you. I wish I had–

Christine: Thank you.

Em: –something more interesting than water, but, um, man, it was– we were struggling over here. I– It was– Nobody slept well in this house last night.

Christine: Mm.

Em: So it was–

Christine: You know what’s so funny is Mondays have been– Oh, no. Today’s– [laughs]

Em: It’s Wednesday. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah. Today’s Wednesday. Ha! LOL. Okay. I was gonna say Mondays have been hard to sleep because, remember, the last two I had McDonald’s coffee the Monday night?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: But then last night, we ordered McDonald’s, and I was like, “Oh my god, I’ll get a giant iced coffee.” And then I saw the fucking reel that Megan made where my spinny loading wheel is just–

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: –going above my forehead. [laughs] And I was like, “I cannot order an iced coffee today.” So I did not, and I did not have one last night. So I slept great, for once. Um–

Em: Good. I’m happy for you.

Christine: I’m sorry that you did not, but I think I’ve realized that the McDonald’s coffee was the problem all along.

Em: I’m so proud of you. I– Well, that makes sense–

Christine: Thanks.

Em: –you would have some matcha and chill out and– yeah, yeah.

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] Trying to low– like lower– shift lower gears.

Em: You know, I’ll– You know, here’s another– I’ll, I’ll end on this one. One of the reasons I drink I think I’ve officially hit the age– And I’m currently in the process of denial. Um–

Christine: Mm.

Em: I think I’ve officially hit the age where caffeine affects me–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –like gives me palpitations and stuff. I really didn’t have to deal with that for a long time. I was very lucky.

Christine: Okay, so I think that might be what’s happening to me too ’cause I suddenly feel so old when I drink caffeine–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –’cause I’m like, “Ah! My body can’t handle it.” [laughs]

Em: Like I thought I was having a panic attack. I was like–

Christine: I was having a panic attack.

Em: I literally texted Allison yesterday. I was like, “I think it’s Xanax o’clock. Like I fucking– Something’s wrong.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And I had been at the coffee shop and drank like three of– [chuckles] like three drinks.

Christine: Yeah. My, my– I was like putting stuff in my like journal a– thing, and I was like, “I can’t tell why my body is shaking, and I’m buzzing, and I feel like jumping out of my skin,” and it was like, “Have you had caffeine today?” And I was like, “Well, no, but I did have a cold brew and a cup of hot tea and like a McDonald’s iced coffee and a whatever co-coffee– espresso beans.” Like yes. Yeah. It really will fuck you up.

Em: I think I wasn’t aware. I’ve never– Like caffeine really has never affected me–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –especially in the world of like keeping me awake. Like it’s never done that. It’s–

Christine: And I think ADHD also is– messes with that, right?

Em: Yeah. So I’ve always heard it’s the reverse effect where like it actually makes you sleepy. And I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I do know I could always have like a whole can of soda and then go to bed. Like it–

Christine: Wow.

Em: But I– It never kept me awake. I never– I always thought that was like people were just like making shit up and they’re like, “Oh, I have this test. I have to drink a bunch of Red Bull.”

Christine: It’s the worst though, isn’t it?

Em: What’s that?

Christine: That’s the worst though, isn’t it? 'Cause caffeine really affects me, which like I pretend like I don’t know until it’s too late. But like yeah, that feeling of like that buzzing, and then try it at like 2 in the morning and you’re like, “I have a test tomorrow,” it’s like oh, you’ll go crazy.

Em: It was, [sighs] um– It’s, it’s a new experience for me, and it was–

Christine: I’m, I’m very sorry. I don’t know what that indicates. Like maybe you’re more in tune with your body.

Em: Maybe.

Christine: That's a positive way of looking at it.

Em: That’s a really nice way to put it. I, I think I’m just getting old now. Like I just– I’ve never–

Christine: I think maybe in our old age our bodies are like, “We’re actually done putting up with this shit. Like we’re gonna tell you about it now,” you know?

Em: Well, it didn’t– it– Literally like last night, I, I was like, “Maybe it’s that I drank so much caffeine.”

Christine: Ohh.

Em: Like it’s a new, new, like as of 24 hours, like a–

Christine: I see.

Em: 'Cause I literally was texting Allison about how I was like, “I’m having a full-blown anxiety attack.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “What the fuck is going on with me?”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “Like I’m freaking out.” And then I was like, “Oh, I think I just– Maybe I had caffeine? This is what people have always told me happens to them. Maybe it’s me.” But I–

Christine: Yeah. It’s weird though. Like ’cause you’re like, “Wait a minute.” Yeah. 'Cause you– Yeah.

Em: We just flipped the switch. I’m now old.

Christine: 'Cause you’re inside it. Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s hard. Well, I’m sorry. That sucks. Um–

Em: It’s okay.

Christine: –it’s not fun to be over-caffeinated, even though it sounds fun.

Em: Well, now I’m on the journey of figuring out that everything I’ve been drinking and eating probably has like insane caffeine and I never noticed–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –because I’m drinking water a little out of fear. I’m like, “What, what if that happens again?” Like, “What, what else have I been drinking that has caffeine?” and honestly, probably everything. So–

Christine: I mean, as long as you’re not doing–

Em: –whoops.

Christine: –major energy drinks all the time.

Em: I know. It just– That feeling was horrible.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I like– Really freaked me out. Anyway, everybody. I’m so sorry we’re like, uh–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –little downward spirals today, but–

Christine: Just a lot of problems out there today.

Em: [chuckles] What are– Yeah, write in. What are your problems this week? Um–

Christine: Please, bring ‘em on in.

Em: I mean, it’s literally called And That’s Why We Drink, and I can’t be happy every week, folks. Sorry. I’m– [sighs]

Christine: Yeah, we try. No, we don’t. [chuckles]

Em: –going through it, and I can’t even have my, my teas.

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Em’s Story – Egyptian Theatres - Part 1

Em: But I do have a story for you. And this was probably another reason why I had a full-blown anxiety attack at the coffee shop ’cause I was doing my notes.

Christine: Mm?

Em: And halfway through doing my notes, I realized that, that the– all the notes I had gathered were about two different locations under the same name.

Christine: Stop.

Em: And I thought I was tripping balls. I was like, “Why the fuck–“

Christine: Of course you had an anxiety attack. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Jesus.

Em: It was, um– Basically what I’m gonna cover for you, I was thinking like, “Oh–“ I was kind of reminiscing about my Idaho trip, and– which I never really discussed with anyone except the fact–

Christine: I know.

Em: –that I slept in a potato, but I–

Christine: Well, we talked about it in Yappy Hour. You did–

Em: We did.

Christine: –a, a rundown in Yappy Hour.

Em: Okay. Good, good, good. Um, I forgot about that. Um, but I was thinking about it, and I was like, “What are some haunted places–blah-blah-blah?” And I literally drove past this place while I was there, and I even took a picture of it ’cause I was like, “This feels like–“

Christine: Ooh.

Em: “–a, a landmark if there was to be one.” And, um, so it’s in Boise, and it’s the Egyptian Theatre.

Christine: Oh!

Em: And I– Like I have a picture–

Christine: And there’s– [chuckles]

Em: –on my phone somewhere–

Christine: There are two Egyptian theaters?

Em: Mm, well, so there’s seven.

Christine: [laughs] Okay.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I was gonna say, there’s– surely there are more than two. Yeah.

Em: Talk about tripping balls when I’m like, “Oh, the Egyptian Theatre, the Egyptian Theatre,” and I’m like, “This is definitely multiple places.”

Christine: This one’s in Cairo, Egypt. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] The ultimate Egyptian Theatre.

Christine: The real Egyptian theater.

Em: Uh, so the two that I got stuck on were, one, in Idaho and, one, in Illinois. That was– Those were the two that I kept getting the most–

Christine: Oh, and that’s confusing.

Em: Yes. I–

Christine: –to me–

Em: To–

Christine: –[chuckles] to me a person who doesn’t know geography.

Em: To me as well. They both start with an I. That’s enough for me.

Christine: Yeah. It’s, it’s two f– Sorry. Now I’m lost.

Em: So I’m here to tell you that this will be a two-parter because I did all the notes anyway, and I was like, “Fuck this. It’s going somewhere.” So this week I’m covering one Egyptian Theatre–

Christine: That word is such a trigger for me, people. We’re not– We’re gonna re– Em remembers. I know I don’t remember. Mine is not a two-parter this week. Do not stress.

Em: I’ll remember because I’ve already done the notes. And I’ll remember when I have to record again. I’ll go, “Oh, thank god. I already did the notes,” so.

Christine: It– Yeah. You know what’s so annoying is when I do that and then I realize I had notes. Like, I had them.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I just didn’t read them. Yeah. It’s fucking infuriating. So anyway. Yes. Go ahead.

Em: So this is one of two Egyptian Theatres, and I’m not gonna do all seven. Please don’t make me do another multi-parter.

Christine: Never.

Em: I’ll scream. Um–

Christine: I won’t. I didn’t make you do that, but I won’t do it again.

Em: [chuckles] Well, if I find enough information, I’d do it. But these– When I typed in “Egyptian Theatre haunted” and started like doing a little google a couple days ago–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –it was only those two locations. The other two don’t seem to be very haunted or popular–

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: –compared to these, so. No shade. Okay, so, um, here’s the first one. This one’s in Boise, Idaho, and it opened in 1927. Sidebar, they were so fucking similar that I didn’t notice for so long and– while doing my research. They were both in the 1920s. They both have the same designs. They both have the same history as to why they’re called the Egyptian Theatre. They both had the same kind of timeline. Oh my god, it was so–

Christine: Are they copycats? Like did one make it at the same time as–

Em: No, but I was just like–

Christine: That's weird.

Em: And all the ghosts are kind of similar, so like spoiler alert–

Christine: It’s like Betamax and–

Em: –the next–

Christine: –and DVD.

Em: –the next two episodes will be kind of similar. Sorry about that. But–

Christine: Or VHS. Yeah.

Em: Just– When you’re listening next week, imagine this episode again and be like, “Oh, I can see why you thought you were like– [chuckles] just like on crazy pills.”

Christine: I mean, I’m already– I– I’m already seeing every– It’s already sounding like the same place.

Em: So this was opened in 1927. Fun fact – had to throw some fun facts in here–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –the very first movie that it played was a silent film. Um, it was– I don’t– I hope you’ve heard of this: Don Juan–

Christine: Oh, Don Juan. Yes.

Em: –starring John Barrymore.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Senior?

Christine: I didn’t know him weirdly. I don’t know who that is.

Em: You gotta be kidding me.

Christine: I mean, is that Drew Barrymore’s like–

Em: Like, like the, the famous family, yes.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don’t think I knew his first name, which is so weird. [chuckles]

Em: [gasps] Christine, one day–

Christine: What’s his name?

Em: –one day we– Oh my god! We have to deep dive on the–

Christine: I didn’t–

Em: –Barrymore family tree.

Christine: I don’t know this.

Em: [gasps]

Christine: I don’t know this. I’m out of the–

Em: Christine!

Christine: I’m out of the loop. Like I know from Drew Barrymore POV like a little bit, and that’s it. Like I don’t, I don’t think I knew th– all the lore behi– I know I don’t know all the lore.

Em: Oh, so she’s in like a fam– like the– like she’s like the fourth generation of Barrymores–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –that are all in the industry.

Christine: Ohh. So I’ve seen those creepy photos where she’s like in all the like elite like– Eugh. It’s just creepy, creepy–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –all the way back, where she’s like a little girl and she’s like sitting on the laps of these–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –like grown-ass men, and like it’s like eugh.

Em: Yes. Her– No, her–

Christine: She grew up in that nightmare.

Em: –story’s an [unintelligible] Hollywood for sure.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah.

Em: Um, but no, she, um– No, her, her great-grandfather was the first of the Barry– and, and the grandma. They got married. They were a power, power couple in Hollywood four generations ago.

Christine: Okay. And what’s his name again? Sorry. I know I just asked you this.

Em: His name was Maurice Barrymore.

Christine: Oh, but what’s the guy in Don Juan? J–

Em: Oh, John. We’ll get there.

Christine: John. Barry– Okay.

Em: Don’t worry.

Christine: Got it, got it, got it.

Em: Now that I’m on this.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So Maurice and – it was like Georgiana or something –

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –they got married, and neither of them, by the way, have the last name Barrymore. One of them, their last name was– It was Maurice Blyth and Georgiana Drew.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And then they ended up having three kids who were like very famous, uh, s– power siblings in the industry, and all of them took on the name Barrymore. Actually, I think the original couple, they’ve all been Barrymores as their stage name–

Christine: Oh, wow.

Em: But so the family started as Blyths and Drews, which, fun fact, I love that um, our favorite, the queen, she has the perfect name because she combined all three, and her legal name is Drew Blythe Berrymore.

Christine: See, that’s cool.

Em: That's fun.

Christine: That sounds good.

Em: But so they had three kids. All of them were super duper famous. They all married people also in the industry. I think they had– some of them had kids in the industry. But one of them then had John Jr.–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –who is Drew’s dad.

Christine: Okay. Got it, got it, got it, got it. Okay.

Em: So I did actually know that way better than I thought I did. Um– [laughs]

Christine: I’m, I’m honestly like amazed. I don’t even know how you just did that.

Em: Just pulled that out. Okay.

Christine: Man. Forget the Duggars. Like, jeez.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: You know everyone’s family tree.

Em: It’s ’cause John Barrymore starts with a J. That’s the only reason I was able to know about that.

Christine: [chuckles] Okay.

Em: Um–

Christine: Oh, J! I was like, “Okay, I don’t get it.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh, fucking Duggars. Of course.

Em: Um, okay. So he starred in Don Juan, which I’ve always heard that phrase like when like my parents or adults their age would talk about–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –“Oh, he’s such a Don Juan, like a playboy,” and I was like, “What the fuck does that really mean? Who the hell is Don Juan?” 'Cause I never saw the movie. I’m so sorry to the film junkies out there. But this is where I tell you – here’s a fun fact about the movie, Don Juan – it’s the film that has the most kisses in film history. And Don Juan kisses–

Christine: Really?

Em: I want you to guess how many times he kisses a woman in this movie.

Christine: 30.

Em: 191.

Christine: [laughs] Jesus.

Em: Within–

Christine: Wow. So, so no kidding. Yeah.

Em: It was, um– Like the average was a, a kiss every less than a minute, like every like 50 seconds or something.

Christine: Jesus.

Em: Um, and it could be like a peck on the cheek or whatever, but that man was a-kissing.

Christine: Mwah-mwah-mwah.

Em: Fun fact, it was also the first – this is a quote – “first film with a completely synchronized soundtrack.”

Christine: Oh, okay.

Em: So in the 1920s, certainly a big movie to play as your first at the premiere of this theater.

Christine: Yes, agreed. Lots of smooching.

Em: Agreed. Um, the– [chuckles] Lots of smooching. Yeah, and in the 1920s, like so not modest.

Christine: No.

Em: I guess it was also flapper era, right? So.

Christine: Oh, right.

Em: So why it’s named the Egyptian Theatre, like the other ones [pronounced “one-suh”].

Christine: [chuckles] “–suh.”

Em: [chuckles] Because, um, a few years earlier, like five years earlier, um, King Tut’s tomb was discovered.

Christine: I see.

Em: And apparently, unbeknownst to me, the country, our nation, our fallen nation, um, sh– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] May she rest in peace.

Em: May she rest in peace. Apparently, in the 1920s, after King Tut’s tomb was discovered, people like had a crazed Egypt fascination.

Christine: Yes. Yes.

Em: Didn’t know that.

Christine: Like, like to the extreme. Like they were eating m– powdered mummy and stuff like that.

Em: Huh?

Christine: Yes.

Em: Oh my fucking god.

Christine: People would like eat powdered mummy, and it was like they would go into these places, these like white men, and would go into these places and like ravage the tombs and then come home with like all these trinkets and like display them, and it would be like body parts or like a bone from a tomb. And then it got to the point of like, oh, people would sell like dried mummy, and it’s like, of course, half that shit is probably fake anyway or more, but it’s like also stop it, e– you know. It's just all gross, but yeah, there was a huge–

Em: You had me at “white men.” That was it.

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] There’s a huge Egypt phase in the ‘20s, yeah. And, um–

Em: And also, I mean–

Christine: And the kid who discovered King Tut’s tomb, by the way, was never given proper credit–

Em: Ohh.

Christine: –’cause he discovered it, ran back. I met him actually. He’s like a hundred years old. [chuckles]

Em: You met the guy who found King Tut’s tomb?

Christine: I did.

Em: And you didn’t fucking talk about it? This is the goddamn sh–

Christine: It’s–

Em: See– Okay.

Christine: [laughs] I’m like, “Hey, you need to buy me a Storyworth subscription if you want the, if you want the real deets of–“ [laughs]

Em: Yours will be the ancient texts found in an attic when you’re like–

Christine: [laughs] Okay.

Em: When Leona’s like, “Oh, what could, what could I find out about my mom?” “I met the man who discovered King Tut’s tomb.”

Christine: Okay, to be fair–

Em: What the fuck? [laughs]

Christine: –it got upstaged by the UFO I saw a few days later. So I felt like that had–

Em: It's like you’re a cartoon character.

Christine: [laughs] I know.

Em: It’s like every episode of Spongebob is more outrageous than the last.

Christine: [laughs] I, I, I just, I just– I– We were at this cool place, and they make these beautiful statues, and it was a family lineage going all the way back to the guy who found– and he’s like [chuckles]– I was telling you, he’s like 100-something years old, and he– There was a room in the back where it was like just his statues that he had made, and so, of course, they were like crazy expensive. But they still had pictures of him in the old newspapers from the ‘20s ’cause it was like, “Young Boy Accompanying like Egyptologist,” and it’s like this ma– white dude with some mustache who gets all the credit. But this like little Egyptian kid, um, found King Tut’s tomb, and, uh, he’s just a really old man, and I bought–

Em: Thank god it’s an Egyptian kid and not–

Christine: –I spent way too much money on s–

Em: –a white man. I’m glad.

Christine: Yeah, he made a, he made a Sekhmet statue that I, that I purchased. Um–

Em: So– [sighs] It’s like you’re–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It’s incredible.

Christine: I just don’t know anymore.

Em: It’s incredible the way the words pour out of you. Like–

Christine: I don’t know. It just feels like I’m like a senile old man sometimes.

Em: I agree. And I feel like–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –in, in a different way, I feel like a senile old man when I hear you tell stories like that and I go, “That– Is that normal these days?”

Christine: I– It’s not fair. I know. But it’s like– I just don’t know. I just– I don’t, I don’t wanna– I don’t know. It just–

Em: You’re one degree away from King Tut’s body.

Christine: It never ca–

Em: I want you to know that.

Christine: It never came up.

Em: And you just didn’t say anything. That’s–

Christine: It never came up.

Em: Anyway, you would have done wonderfully in the ‘20s, uh, because the entire country was obsessed with Egypt.

Christine: Yeah. Actually, the whole– all the Western world really.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, and so because of that, I don’t know what was going on, but every goddamn theater in the world was like, “Well–“

Christine: Mm.

Em: –“We’re– We need to design ourself as this big grand palace,” ’cause this was at a turning point in the country where everyone was trying to break away from either the Wild West or they were, you know, uh– the Great Depression had yet to happen, so everything was like grander, and they were like, “We have to make everything glamorous and wonderful and ritzy.”

Christine: Ah, it’s like splendor and like–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –oh, roaring ‘20s, like all that like excitement. Yeah.

Em: And so they were like, “Well, how do we do this up? What’s big? What’s big?”

Christine: Mm.

Em: “Oh, Egypt. Ah!” So every single thing decided that their architecture, it was gonna be Egypt. That’s–

Christine: I see.

Em: I’m sure I’m butchering that. If you’re an architect, you didn’t hear any of this. Um–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –but a lot of designers got paid at that time to do– to, to have like Egyptian motifs and murals and–

Christine: It was like all the rage. Yeah.

Em: –hieroglyphics, which now, 100 years later, I’m like [groans]. But–

Christine: Like what do they even say?

Em: But back then it was, um– No one thought– Everyone thought it was, I think, just like–

Christine: It was an aesthetic, for sure.

Em: I’m sure they thought it was a compliment to the splendor that is Egypt or something. I have no idea.

Christine: I mean, it is if you’re not fucking robbing them and like putting it in your bo– and like eating mummies. Like stop it.

Em: You know, I’ve never heard a better example of like how– [sighs] Sorry, I’m about to be on my soap box here.

Christine: Oh, yeah. Climb on, climb on up.

Em: I’m just gonna say there’s a, a very heavily overlapping Venn diagram all the way 100 years ago, at the very least, based on the point you just made that white men and exploitation and violence were just always overlapping each other just a little bit. I mean, true crime content was, was just always meant to be– If they’re going to another place just to eat mummies to say that they did? Are you kidding me?

Christine: Are you new here, Em? [laughs]

Em: I know, but I’m just like just another goddamn point. Like I’m waiting for– I’m so tired. I’m–

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it’s– the thing is like– I, I really get frustrated looking back because I feel like nowadays there’s such more cl– there’s much more clarity around like what it actually means and the ha– actual harm that things like cultural appropriation have. And then, you know, putting like the spin of– that’s how like we got all the cursed mummy movies, right?

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like there was never a cursed mummy. This is just like what– People went down there, discovered these things, like basically like raided, raped the place of all of this, brought it back to like show off and be like, “Ooh, look at my exotic collection,” you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It's– I mean, we’ve done this to every– whatever. Anyway, um, yeah–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: –it’s just exploitation, but, uh, yeah, so we did that back then. That’s super good. And, um–

Em: I mean, it’s stuff I already–

Christine: –it was a big deal.

Em: –it’s stuff I already knew, but I’m just like, “Again?” Like I’m so tired of hearing about this. I’m sad and not surprised at all.

Christine: But the good thing is like nowadays, I know it’s shocking to everyone’s system and so overloading, but it’s like at least it’s out in the open now.

Em: At least we’re talking about it now.

Christine: We can, we can see it. Yeah.

Em: I’d like to think someone in the 1920s heard that their friend did XYZ or ate powdered mummy and they were like, “That guy’s fucking nuts.”

Christine: Like, “That is not cool.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “That’s not okay.” Okay. So, uh, anyway, the building was decked out in Egyptian stuff, es– There was especially nods to the Book of the Dead ’cause that was one of the things–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –that was found in the tomb. Um, and so it is a beautiful theater. I mean, it’s a beautiful theater.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: And, um, many theaters were doing this to a point where I’m convinced that all the designers of the time– if email existed, they were in like a group chat with each other or group chain–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –because what are the odds that all over the country every single theater is now the Egyptian Theatre that looks–

Christine: Well, it’s ’cause like the aesthetic. It was like– It’s like when we– It’s like when people discover a new cultural trend, and suddenly–

Em: I know.

Christine: –it’s like everybody wants to do the– It’s like– What it makes me think of is like companies taking the vowels out of their stupid names, you know? Or like–

Em: [chuckles] That’s a great point.

Christine: And then like WUPHF or whatever as like from The Office as like an example of like the parody of that. Like it’s just absurd. Like what are you doing, you know? But it’s like with the Egyptian thing, it’s like, “How do we make it Egyptian? Everyone loves the Egyptian stuff. Let’s put Egypt on it.”

Em: You’re totally on top of it.

Christine: Like, “Very clever, guys.”

Em: Well–

Christine: I think if they were in a chat, hopefully they could have at least been a little more creative, each of them.

Em: I wish. 'Cause like I’m telling you a hundred years later I didn’t know the difference between them until halfway through.

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. They still haven’t differentiated themselves.

Em: Um, there are seven left today.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Uh, one of them is in LA, the Grauman’s Egyptian Theatre–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –which I saw one source say that that theater inspired some of the design choices of the theater–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –I’m talking about today in Boise, but I don’t really know if that’s true. I mean, it just sounds like they both went with an Egyptian vibe. I don’t know how– Maybe. I just don’t– There was lo– not a lot of info on that. Um, so it was called “The Egyptian Theatre” right away, but by the ‘30s it was called “The Fox Theatre.” By the ‘40s it was called “The ADA.” By the ‘50s, it was called “The Plitt,” which was a chain at the time.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, then in the ‘60s and ‘70s, it was a “Cineplex.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: May they rest in peace.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And then it later got changed back to “The Egyptian Theatre.” But in the 1970s, when it was the Cineplex, it was in super duper bad shape, as they all are in my stories.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And it was considered for demolition. Um, and it was considered for demolition because it was the end of the ‘70s, and what was coming up? The ‘80s. So what would they be demolishing for?

Christine: [in a sing-song voice] Malls.

Em: They wanted a mall.

Christine: Shopping– Cineplex, shopping malls. [chuckles]

Em: And you would think also in the ‘80s, like there’s no better place in a mall besides a Cineplex, so you should keep–

Christine: True point.

Em: –the Cineplex and just add to it.

Christine: Food, food court and Cineplex. What more do you need?

Em: Um, so they wanted a mall. It was going to be destroyed, but then some anonymous donor showed up and bought the theater to keep it from destruction.

Christine: Ooh-la-la. Anonymous donor.

Em: Anonymous owner. His name was–

Christine: Was it the Barrymore famil–

Em: –Earl.

Christine: Oh.

Em: No, his name is Earl. Um–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –he was anonymous for a while, and then he came out of the woodwork to go, “It’s me!” Like a– he ripped his Scooby-Doo mask off.

Christine: [chuckles] It’s Earl!

Em: [laughs] Um, so I don’t know all the details here, and they’re not necessarily important, but he– there was some issue about the lease where he bought it but nothing could be done until the lease was expired. Like there could be no like revamping it until the lease was expired–

Christine: Oh, okay.

Em: –which was like 20 years in the future. So–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –he was a real homie and basically bought the building and just let it sit until the lease expired 20 years into the future and then–

Christine: That’s so silly.

Em: –decided to revamp it.

Christine: That’s so silly that you have to let it sit there.

Em: Yeah, there was some paperwork I am not smart enough to understand.

Christine: Some clause.

Em: But what he did do in the meantime was, uh, he put it on the National Register of Historic Places. So it was a landmark and officially could not be touched–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –um, unless it was being renovated, which is what happened in ’99.

Christine: Right.

Em: So by ’99, it was renovated. It’s still there. Today, it’s the city’s last single-screen theater. It’s a theater with only one auditorium, one screen.

Christine: Wow.

Em: And – this is a quote – it is “one of the few surviving movie palaces from the silent film era in the entire country.”

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: Most of them have gone away for good.

Christine: That’s really cool. Silent film era.

Em: I love that.

Christine: I love that.

Em: We’ll be discussing it again next week. Don’t worry, everybody.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Also still standing in the theater is the original 1927 pipe organ that they had opening day.

Christine: That’s cool. Oh, shit! The original one?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Damn.

Em: So apparently, so few people play the pipe organ these days that they have had events like– Um, I think I saw on one website that they have like a silent film festival still and like they still play–

Christine: Oh, cool.

Em: –silent films here, but what they used to do during silent films is they would have live music playing so that way there’d be music and stuff to accompany the m– the film. So they actually fly out organists just for that festival so that way you can–

Christine: Oh, wow.

Em: –hear them use the old 1920 organ and–

Christine: [groans]

Em: –still play music behind the silent films.

Christine: That must be such a trip, you know.

Em: I would dress like–

Christine: Yes.

Em: I mean, you have– For the theme, you have to really commit to the aesthetic of this experience.

Christine: Oh, I love that.

Em: So the theater is also known as the most haunted building in Boise–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –which it’s so weird that as I drove past it, I was like, “I should take a picture of this.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Um, I just felt drawn to it.

Christine: Did you see anything in the windows when you zoomed in?

Em: No, but I should have l– I should have looked at, um, what was playing there, if there was anything playing there–

Christine: Oh!

Em: –because I literally went to the movies–

Christine: That’s fun.

Em: –when I was in Boise, and I didn’t go there. [chuckles]

Christine: Oh man.

Em: So whoops. Um, so it’s said that it’s so haunted– This is, again, I’m sure, uh, maybe some, um, residual–

Christine: Mm.

Em: Uh, you were just mentioning this that like, you know, people will use “Egyptian curses” when like there’s no Egyptian curse.

Christine: Oh, right, right, right, right, right.

Em: People say that this theater is so haunted because during construction, it’s said that one of the people on the construction team, or one of the designers, put an Egyptian artifact–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and sealed it inside the structure.

Christine: Ah-hah.

Em: So that implies you went to Egypt or had something from Egypt, and then you put it in the walls and now pissed off all the Egyptians or just the spirits around, and it’s the–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –it’s Egypt’s fault. Um–

Christine: I guess so.

Em: So there’s no evidence of that, but it’s just a rumor that like, “Oh, this place is extra cursed.”

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Um, [sighs] again, no evidence. However, many, many, many say that there is a very active ghost here named Joe.

Christine: Okay.

Em: And Joe worked in the produ– projection room. And in the 1950s– It’s said he worked there for like 30 years, but it–

Christine: They always work in the projection room, these theater ghosts.

Em: It’s always the eeriest one who is already isolated–

Christine: Yes, exa–

Em: –already looming and staring at everyone.

Christine: That’s, that’s what it is, Em. They’re in the shadows. They’re already behind everybody. They can see everything.

Em: I will tell you if I lived in the ‘70s or ‘80s– If you ever time travel and I’ve– you know I’ve also time travelled–

Christine: And I’m looking for you? [chuckles]

Em: –I need you to know that I’m working at either a video rental place or the projection booth of a movie theater.

Christine: The way we’re gonna scare the shit out of each other like, “Psst! Found you!”

Em: It’s gonna be the Spidermen pointing at each other.

Christine: Oh my god. [laughs]

Em: Like, “What the fuck are you doing here?”

Christine: “Give me– I wanna, I wanna do the reels.” Yeah.

Em: Or I work at a, or I work at a diner, but I’m the, the person who throws the rag over my shoulder, and I’m just scrubbing the counters in the middle of the night.

Christine: You’re just doing something diner aesthetic.

Em: I just–

Christine: Like you’re just like–

Em: –kick the jukebox–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –to make it work again.

Christine: Or just carrying a pie around and kick– Yeah, [chuckles] kick the jukebox. Yeah, yeah.

Em: I–

Christine: Recognizing everyone.

Em: I, I make a mean milkshake. Make a mean–

Christine: I bet. Oh, I bet.

Em: Um, but I’m either– It’s either movie-based or a diner.

Christine: Okay.

Em: I’m doing something wildly stereotypical.

Christine: I can handle that.

Em: Thank you. Thank you.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Just come find me.

Christine: I will.

Em: I’m probably scared. So–

Christine: [chuckles] Me too.

Em: Um– [laughs] So, okay. He was there for like 30 years, so one source claimed. Then in the 1950s, he’s going up the stairs to the booth, bam, dies of a heart attack.

Christine: Oh no.

Em: Life comes at you fast.

Christine: Oh no.

Em: It seems to be just a story.

Christine: Okay.

Em: That’s why I’m being a little chummy about it because–

Christine: Right.

Em: –who knows? There– I didn’t see it. It was a whole lot of, “it’s said,” “it’s said,” “it’s said.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: And since he allegedly died on the stairs of the projection booth of a heart attack–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –he is known to be the most active ghost here, um, but mainly kind of boring things. Lights turn on and off. Doors open and close, hearing a lot of noises. He seems to be most experienced in the booth, which would make sense–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –but also one could argue that’s the creepiest room in the building anyway, so you’re already primed to think that there’s a ghost there.

Christine: Yep.

Em: I don’t know. Maybe it’s both.

Christine: Maybe.

Em: Um, others have said that they actually see him in the balcony seats of the audience.

Christine: Eugh. Oh, so he can finally sit down and watch a movie?

Em: He can finally– He’s on his break for once.

Christine: [groans]

Em: The big break. Um, he’s also seen–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –on the stage. So now he’s also just doing a song and dance for you.

Christine: His big break. [laughs]

Em: [chuckles] Uh, he’s active not just in the projection booth or in the last rows of the upper balcony, but he’s also seen walking through the theater in 1920s clothing–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –until he fades away near the orchestra pit.

Christine: Okay.

Em: I don’t know if those are the same man-ghost.

Christine: It feels– Yeah, it feels like why would he be doing all those different things all the time, but okay.

Em: And why is he in a suit now?

Christine: Yeah, it feels like he was going to work– I can ma– I can understand he’s going to work, he’s back at work, he’s, he’s on his break, but like the rest of it like dancing on the stage and walking through the– I’m like, “What is that–“

Em: So you’ll note this is where I started getting really confused in my notes because I was like, “Wait, it just said that–“

Christine: Mm.

Em: “–Joe stays in the projection booth, but now it’s saying that there’s this guy from the same era who walks across the stage.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “But then there’s this one guy–“ And then I had to go through every single article and all that, and I had to go find like, “Was this one Illinois? Was this one Idaho?”

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “Was–“ And some of them didn’t tell me where, so I just have to like kind of put two and two together and critically– So I’m doing my best–

Christine: Critically think.

Em: –to unravel a ball of yarn here.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: I just want you to know. Thank god all this is already alleged. I can’t imagine this being a true crime case–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –and just accidentally swapping info in two different cases.

Christine: You’re like, “There’s four guys. Let’s all pr– let’s pretend they’re all the same one.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “Let’s pretend they’ve all committed heinous crimes, allegedly.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That should work fine.

Em: So I will say Joe was, across the board, definitely Boise.

Christine: Okay.

Em: One website that did say the Egyptian Theatre in Boise, Idaho had a man in the 19– dressed in 1920s clothes walking across the auditorium. So I’m like, “Okay, so maybe that’s also Joe?”

Christine: Ohh.

Em: “Or maybe it’s just another man.” Like there– It was kind of like a, a ha–

Christine: And I wonder if they get mixed up ’cause like over time– I mean, you’ve talked about this before in your stories where like over time it’ll sound like someone from your story, but like maybe they haven’t put that together or maybe like–

Em: Mm-hmm, yes.

Christine: –we’re making a connection that’s not there or like maybe they just think it’s the same person.

Em: You make a great point. Please hold.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: You are on to something for sure.

Christine: Woo-hoo.

Em: So, um, there’s also the ghost of a Lady in Red, of course.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: And I know that she’s different because there’s a lady in a different color at the other one. So the–

Christine: Ooh.

Em: –Lady in Red is over here. Lady in Red, she’s seen in vaudeville era clothing. She’s mainly seen on opening nights of big shows. So it’s–

Christine: Oh, that’s fun.

Em: For some reason, it’s thought that that means she died on opening night. I would argue if she fucking worked here, she must love opening nights of a show.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Like she didn’t have to die to just like being here.

Christine: I would say so. I feel like of course you show– of course the other guy shows up on his break, watching a movie.

Em: [chuckles] Right.

Christine: Right? Of course she shows up on opening night.

Em: I mean, if I died in a theater and now that’s where I’m stuck, you better believe I’m dolled the fuck up on opening night–

Christine: I’m–

Em: –’cause I have nothing else to do for eternity.

Christine: I’m behind the concessions stand but eating popcorn by myself all the time.

Em: Oh my god. Yes. Uh, there’s also– I have to assume they’re talking about the Lady in Red, but I don’t know that.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: It could just be the ghost of another woman, so do what you will with that. There is a ghost of a woman seen walking around the theater, sitting in the audience for first acts only, and by intermission, she’s gone.

Christine: Ohh?

Em: So she doesn’t like a single show–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –long enough to stick around.

Christine: Jeez, she’s a harsh critic.

Em: Sometimes she’s grabbed people’s arms. Sometimes people have smelled perfume on her.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And just like you said, if one person has this experience and one person has this experience, they may not realize that they’re talking about the same person.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: There is, um, a regular haunting here where, in the old dressing rooms, people smell a lot of perfume.

Christine: Mm.

Em: But then a different source just said, “There’s a, a woman who smells like perfume over here.” And it could be the same–

Christine: Ah.

Em: –woman walking around the whole building.

Christine: Right. They got to give me some notes, some tasting notes. You know, is this like–

Em: Exactly.

Christine: –aromatic? Is this like–

Em: Is she fruit?

Christine: –gourmand?

Em: Is it fruity?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Is it like a bakery? She smell like a cupcake?

Christine: What’s happening? Yeah. Tell me everything.

Em: Um, also in this– in the old, old-school dressing rooms, um, people have felt like they’re being watched. They’ve been grabbed. They see reflections in the mirror of other people there when they’re alone in that room.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: The mirrors in Dressing Room Number 3 are the scariest because, this is a quote, “makeup inexplicably smears itself across the mirrors overnight.”

Christine: Oh my god. No. Absolutely not.

Em: And just like that, theater ain’t for me.

Christine: Bye! I’m out.

Em: There’s another ghost– And I want you to remember your point again because this, I think, is the best example of like, are we talking about the same ghost–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –in two different sources and they just don’t know it? Um, there’s a ghost who seems to be a former crew member who allegedly fell onto the stage from the catwalk.

Christine: Oh, jeez.

Em: Again, no evidence–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –but that’s how the story goes. Um, many people have said that there are tech issues that now, uh, plague the theater, especially on opening nights–

Christine: Ooh.

Em: –or during shows, that they– either the lights will go out, or the sound will go out, or it’s already out by itself, and it will fix itself.

Christine: [gasps] That’s kind of annoying. [chuckles]

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Like which is it?

Christine: Like great but annoying. Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: And is it like– are like– is the haunting over when it’s fixed itself or was it naturally broken–

Christine: Di– It–

Em: –and he hauntingly fixed it? Or did he–

Christine: Did they fix it? Or did they break it and then fi– Right, exactly.

Em: Or did he– Yeah. Did he break it and then fix it? And now, now he’s stepping away ’cause he’s like, “Okay, I’m done.”

Christine: “Yeah, I’m not gonna just clap for you.”

Em: [chuckles] Meanwhile, other sources told me that people have seen the apparition of a crew member working on lights.

Christine: Okay.

Em: So that makes me think, could we– could someone have seen him tinkering with the lights and then the lights are glitching over here and then he fixes them? Is he–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: Did you see him breaking and fixing them?

Christine: Interesting.

Em: Or is there a whole other ghost that’s messing with the lights and this guy, for the rest of eternity, just has to go around–

Christine: He’s like, [chuckles] “I’m just trying–”

Em: –and fix everything behind him.

Christine: Now, that would be irritating.

Em: I’d be over it. And no pay?

Christine: I’m behind the popcorn– I’m telling you. I’m– Leave me out of it, everybody. I’m behind the– I’m eating Mike and Ikes.

Em: [laughs] Mike and Ikes? Really? That’s your, that’s your go-to?

Christine: I just like a Mike and Ike every now and then.

Em: I love, I love a Mike and Ike but only yellow, orange, green, cannot stand those reds and pinks.

Christine: I love them. We can make a perfect pair.

Em: I agree. We had– We felt that way about Starbursts too, I think. What are your favorite Starbursts?

Christine: Yeah, I eat– I just eat all the Red 40.

Em: Okay, ’cause I hate those.

Christine: I just want all–

Em: Those are the only ones I don’t want.

Christine: It makes my skin break out. Just give it to me. All of it.

Em: The orange and yellow makes my pupils dilate. Like I, like I– Like the sugar rush, and it’s so juicy. I’m like, “I can do anything!”

Christine: Yeah, that– Renée and I used to buy them on Fridays and sit in our car and like cry about boys and eat like 16 packs of Mike and Ike. Like it was sick. And we’d like get ourselves frenzied up into like a sugar high while, while other high schoolers were like out drinking, and we’d just be like–

Em: Sugar drunk?

Christine: –high on Mike and Ikes. Yeah.

Em: I mean, I would wanna be right there with you. I–

Christine: Can relate. Yeah.

Em: –fucking love Mike and Ike’s. And nobody talks about them. They don’t get enough play at all.

Christine: Wait a minute. I didn’t know that. See, you said that, and I thought, “Oh no. Em’s gonna judge me for Mike and Ikes.” But you like them. Okay, good.

Em: They don’t get nearly enough play. It–

Christine: They don’t get enough credit.

Em: It’s also like I know a lot of people say they like Swedish Fish, but like nobody’s recognizing that you throw a little sour on them, it’s a Sour Patch Kid. No one’s talking about that.

Christine: And they’re all the same flavor.

Em: Yes.

Christine: Like it’s like–

Em: Boring.

Christine: It's like let’s move on.

Em: Quickly.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: With haste.

Christine: Now. With haste? [laughs]

Em: Expeditiously.

Christine: Expeditiously. [laughs] Stat.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: When are we stopping?

Em: Immediately. So–

Christine: I need a thesaurus.

Em: Um, the– there’s an actress– I– This– These all I got from, from the same source where it just listed all of them, and I was like, “Thank god for you.” Um, there was an actress who was, I guess, in the dressing rooms of the theater and watched her own costume on its hanger move itself around. Just–

Christine: Eugh!

Em: Clink-clink-clink.

Christine: Was someone like playing with it? Trying it on? Oh god.

Em: The– I think the website said like it looked as if like a costumer was examining it or something.

Christine: Oh, like taking a peek at it. Oh my god.

Em: Like making sure it was all good to go.

Christine: The seams were good.

Em: Um, imagine being alone in a dressing room and you see that and then people come in and you can’t ex– You just sound crazy. You just might as well not say anything.

Christine: And y– And they walk toward your– And you’re like, “Don’t go over there!”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “There’s an invisible person!”

Em: Imagine them now handing it to you and you have to put it on your body. You have to get naked and put it on your body after it’s been touched by a ghost.

Christine: I don’t think so. I don’t think I have to do that anymore ’cause I quit.

Em: Yeah. I think actually–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Where’s the understudy?

Christine: [laughs] Yeah, it’s–

Em: Expeditiously.

Christine: –their– expeditiously their problem now.

Em: There was a security guard who, in the middle of the night, saw the stage curtains open and close themselves. Yuck.

Christine: No, I don’t love that. I wonder if that’s someone playing like, “Ta-da!” or if that’s like someone just doing the tech, you know?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Hm.

Em: I don’t– Also if it was a vaudeville stage at all, I would love for there to be some sort of ghost bit with like the vaudeville cane.

Christine: [chuckles] I mean, you have to.

Em: You know, I looked up vaudeville canes on eBay to see how much one would cost.

Christine: [laughs] Is that when I was going on and on and I kept interrupting you and you were like, “All right, finally. I’m going on eBay”?

Em: [laughs] No–

Christine: “Gotta get her out of here.”

Em: I just wanted to know if they really existed ’cause I– But apparently they’re called “vaudeville hooks.” I did not know they’re not called canes.

Christine: Oh, a hook. Okay.

Em: And I couldn’t find a single one that was big enough for– to wrap around a human body. So I’m starting to think we’ve got a conspiracy on our hands.

Christine: Oh dear.

Em: Maybe that was just a Looney Tunes thing.

Christine: You’re, [chuckles] you’re typing out “life size–“ [laughs]

Em: [laughs] “Average circum-circumference of human–“

Christine: “Fits–“

Em: “–versus vaudeville hook.”

Christine: “–human man hook.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] I don’t know what I would do with one, but you know I wanna buy it, and then anyone who bothers me in my own home– Allison, I could just drag her out.

Christine: [laughs] [singing joke music sting] Yeah. [laughs]

Em: It would have really worked this morning when I was like, “Can you leave?” I would have just hooked her–

Christine: “Can you leave?” Just pushed her out the door. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Spun her away.

Christine: Man.

Em: Oh, okay. So um, on one investigation, they heard a bunch of laughter. People were also physically touched. They saw a man’s outline on the stage.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And then they saw another man staring at them from the projection booth.

Christine: Ew.

Em: This you’ll hate. So there’s a former staff member who said that they used a Ouija board there–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: Someone on my side finally, who’s like, “Don’t fucking ever play with a Ouija board again.” Because without prompting, as soon as they opened it up, the planchette, by itself, went to “No.”

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: And then the projection door slammed shut on its own, and all the lights in the theater went out.

Christine: The guy was like, “We don’t fuck with that.”

Em: It’s like, “Who, who do you think we are?”

Christine: “Who do you– Like, what are you trying to do? Ruin our afterlives?”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “Like, we’re already here working our asses–“

Em: “What portal are you trying to– We’re right here.”

Christine: “You’re ripping a portal open.”

Em: And also like 1920s, I imagine they were around for like the first wave of spiritualism. They know what a Ouija board looks like, right?

Christine: Oh my god. They don’t want Zu– Zozo, whatever the fuck around here.

Em: They’re like, “I’ve seen what you’re capable of. They’ve played scary movies in this theater. I know what you could do.”

Christine: “Devil Wears Prada 2 is coming– is out. Like we got to be so on top of our game this week.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “Opening night. You have–“

Christine: Opening night. [laughs]

Em: “You have to get it together.” Um, people have also found props and costumes in moved locations or, even creepier, in, quote, “just slightly changed positions.”

Christine: Yeah, that’s somehow worse.

Em: I just fucking hate it.

Christine: Somehow.

Em: 'Cause it’s a mind game. Like they want you–

Christine: It’s– I was gonna say ’cause then you’re gaslit.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Mm.

Em: People have also seen shadows darting around on stage. Um, people have heard their name called. They’ve heard distant vaudeville music playing–

Christine: [laughs] Oh Jesus.

Em: –and they’ve also heard distant applauses.

Christine: It’s the distant– I don’t know if that’s worse or better. It’s like if there were applause right next to me, I’d be like, “Thank you. Thank you so much.” No, I’m kidding.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um, I would be like, “What the fuck?” But the far away applause is not as scary. The far away vaudeville music though? I don’t think I’m enjoying that really.

Em: That’s fully meant to horrify you and nothing else.

Christine: Yeah, that feels like a curse.

Em: 'Cause I don’t believe that music is actually now playing in the other room and you’re hearing it. It wants you to– It’s like it’s controlling you to go into that room because–

Christine: Yeah, it feel– Totally.

Em: It knows you’ll be curious about something over there–

Christine: It's like projecting it.

Em: –but it’s only playing in your head.

Christine: It’s like when you can throw your voice sort of to me. It feels like–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –somebody’s like intentionally putting it there. Yeah. I agree.

Em: Agreed, agreed. Because if– I, I mean, I’m no expert–

Christine: These are the conversations we have inside a haunted house, and then we’re like, “So why are we here?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “I forget.”

Em: So it’s–

Christine: “Why?”

Em: “So the Uber is 20 minutes out, yeah?”

Christine: Yeah. We’re like, “We’ve analyzed every angle of how bad this is and how dumb this is. Let’s leave.”

Em: I mean, every time I’ve heard of someone saying, “I thought I heard something” and then you play the cameras back, it’s not playing in that room. It’s absolutely only in your head.

Christine: It’s–

Em: Or–

Christine: Yeah, h–

Em: –they are fucking with the cameras–

Christine: Or it’s like–

Em: –and the camera didn’t pick up on the sound.

Christine: –across the room or somethin– across the house, and it’s like doing it by itself, and it’s all bad. Yeah.

Em: [sighs] And also–

Christine: Terrible.

Em: –interesting that you would think applause wouldn’t startle you. Imagine being in an empty room and then all of a sudden–

Christine: Clap?

Em: –like an 800-seat theater is all applauding you at once.

Christine: Like–

Em: It’s just the, the sheer loudness of that?

Christine: Talk about– I mean, Jesus. It’s like give you a fright.

Em: It would– I know it would horrify you. I mean–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –I’d be a little honored. I’d be like, “Okay.”

Christine: [chuckles] You’d be like, “Oh, me?” [chuckles]

Em: “Thanks.” People also hear whispering. They have heard the pipe organ play itself.

Christine: Ah, intriguing.

Em: Can’t stand that.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And then the last thing I’m gonna say is there was a Travel Channel show–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –that was not Ghost Adventures–

Christine: Oh…

Em: –that covered an episode of this called Ghost Stories–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –had like ten episodes, and I could not find it online–

Christine: Oh–

Em: –so I cannot report on it.

Christine: –ba-ha-humbug.

Em: But know it’s out there, and if someone is sleuthier than me, enjoy. So that is–

Christine: Oh, wow.

Em: –our first round of the Egyptian Theatre.

Christine: I feel– [applause] I’m not gonna clap really loud right in front of you. I’m gonna clap far away.

Em: I– Thank you. Thank you.

Christine: And lure you to me. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] No, I feel like Zachary probably cancelled anything that had the word “ghost.” He was like, “That’s actually my domain. You may not have Ghost Story the show. That’s not for you.“

Em: I mean, fully. I mean, I–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –to this day believe that there are no other ghost shows that he’s not starring in, unless they’re like so like five rungs under him that he doesn’t feel threatened by them.

Christine: Totally. He lets them have their little time. Yeah.

Em: It’s like, “You can pretend like we’re on the same page, I guess.”

Christine: What do you think he feels about Ghost Hunters? Like, they must have a beef, right?

Em: For fucking sure.

Christine: How could you not? These– Yeah, there’s no way.

Em: Well, wasn’t Nick Groff on both of those shows?

Christine: Oh, wait. Maybe that’s right. Maybe there’s like, there’s like certifiable beef–

Em: I–

Christine: –Grade A beef.

Em: I think he left Ghost Adventures to go be with Ghost Hunters.

Christine: That makes sense.

Em: You know what I like about Ghost Hunters, and I’ve said it before, in the world of research– and Zac Bagans, I will say, he is a business mastermind–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –of course he does it the other way, ’cause then he gets more views. But I appreciate, as someone who’s just trying to do as much research as I can quickly, all of their evidence is at the end of every single episode, so I don’t have to watch the whole thing.

Christine: Oh, really?

Em: I love that.

Christine: Oh, oh, the evidence, the ghost evidence.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, I understand what you’re saying.

Em: 'Cause then they go like, “Oh, let’s go tell the owner what we found,” and then show–

Christine: “We’ll recap it all.” Yeah.

Em: –they just show a compilation reel. And I’m like, “That’s so fucking beautiful. Thank you.”

Christine: And it’s not like, “Oh, you have to–

Em: And then Zak is like, “You have to watch the whole thing.”

Christine: Zak’s like, “Let me, let me read this poem out loud that I made–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “–and then you can see the ghost.” And it’s like, “Do I have to pay that toll? That’s quite a toll to pay.”

Em: And it’s 1 in the morning, and I’m like, “Zak, I just wanna go to bed. Please fucking show me–“

Christine: “Roses, roses.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Turn up the volume. Roses, roses.”

Em: [mimicking Zak Bagans] “Roses, roses.”

Christine: Yeah. Nobody does it better than you.

Em: I– 'Cause I had–

Christine: [laughs] [mimicking Zak Bagans] “Roses, roses.”

Em: I had to hear it a bajillion zillion times.

Christine: I– Do you know something really true about me? I say it wrong to make sure that you say it right and–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I go, “Roses, roses.” So that you say it correctly. [laughs]

Em: [mimicking Zak Bagans] “Roses, roses.”

Christine: That’s it. That’s it. Oh, it scratches a weird itch on my brain.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh gosh.

Em: Make that my text sound.

Christine: Uh, I might. Yeah, I’ll never answer my phone again. Um, “Roses, roses.” I just– It’s like, you know, the Ghost Misadventures TikTok just has like such a cha– such a gem of a concept. Like taking– go– taking Zak clips and then writing like, “Me when my mom tells me to do something,” or whatever–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and it’ll be like, [mimicking Zak Bagans] “I just don’t wanna go in there,” or whatever, you know? It just– But it’s–

Em: I mean, if they’re–

Christine: They just have gold.

Em: If they’re listening, I hope that there’s a video eventually that says, “When someone asks what my favorite flowers are–“

Christine: [laughs] “Roses, roses.”

Em: [mimicking Zak Bagans] “Roses, roses.”

Christine: I think they– They used that clip, I think, a– um, and I was like, “Oh my god, I–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “–I relate to this type of humor specifically.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um, ’cause that whole clip– I remember watching that with you. Like that whole clip is in there of him singing, and like, man.

Em: I remember finally covering that one and thinking, “There’s no way I’m not–“

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “–we’re not gonna watch the entire thing live. That’s–“ Like–

Christine: “We have to now.”

Em: “I would deprive– It would be depriving you.”

Christine: “It would be really sick if we didn’t.” Okay. So, um, may I use the bathroom before our Yappy Hour?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Do you have a– Oh, did we have something? I forget.

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: Oh, I have something. I have something.

Em: Okay.

Christine: I have something fun.

Em: Okay, cool.

Christine: Okay, we’re about to come back for Yappy Hour, and if you are interested, um, you can sign up. I actually found my palmistry guidebook.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So we’re gonna take a quick peek at that while we’re in Yappy Hour, so see you there.

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Christine’s Story – Tony Parsons

Christine: All right, so today I am covering the story of Tony Parsons. Um, this was featured on a– I’ve been in like a true crime mood, which so– sounds weird for people who cover true crime regularly, but like you know when you’re just like in a ghosty mood or something, even though–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –it’s like also your work, right? It’s like a–

Em: The passion is– has resurged.

Christine: Yes. Yeah, it’s like I get– got like more, um, intrigued by my own kind of topic for a little while, and I got– I kinda went a little outside of my norm, my comfort zone of research, and I found this, um, relatively new Netflix mini-series. It’s a three-parter called Should I Marry a Murderer? And I was like, “Well, that sounds like a TLC situation. Like, I don’t know.”

Em: Wow.

Christine: But something about the thumbnail– You know how Netflix does those thumbnails that like cater to you? Like it was like the original algorithm where it was like different depending on whose–

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: –phone you were on or whatever. So it, it got me good, and I’m watching this going, “I can’t believe this is– I can’t believe this.” I mean, it’s just a doozy. I feel like it’s perfect, so I’m gonna cover it. Here we go. It was late 2020. We were all in hell. Um, and–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] –we can all remember it ’cause we’re still there. We haven’t left. Um–

Em: And we might be re-entering. Have you been hearing about–?

Christine: Actually, no?

Em: Oh, Christine. Just– I’ll let you live in the bliss.

Christine: I literally– My–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: [holding up the NeeDoh Cube in her hand] Now suddenly my nice bur– my NeeDoh Cube is gonna–

Em: All of a sudden, it’s like cracked. [laughs]

Christine: –explode. Yeah.

Em: Um, no. There’s a, there’s a new virus, uh, not, not a COVID strain.

Christine: The– You mean the cruise ship one?

Em: The cruise ship one.

Christine: Oh, yeah. Well, that’s passed from animals–

Em: Well–

Christine: –which means there were like rats on the ship or something.

Em: Something like that. But– And they keep saying like–

Christine: The Hantavirus.

Em: I just watched a video today ’cause my whole algorithm is everyone saying like, “Don’t let them off the boat. Don’t let them off the boat.” But then other people are like, “They’re– They’ve already been off the boat. They’re on a cruise. They’ve been going from port to port traveling and only now are showing symptoms.”

Christine: [laughs] Right.

Em: Um–

Christine: Oh, fuck, dude. And several people died.

Em: Yeah. And it’s a– the– once it’s human-to-human, it’s a 35-50% chance of dying, no matter who you are.

Christine: [gasps] Oh.

Em: It’s like a, a half– a one-to-one guess or, uh, 1 out of 2 that you’ll die.

Christine: Okay. Well, then in that case–

Em: Stay on the boat. [chuckles] I don’t know. I don’t know. But they’ve already been off the boat.

Christine: In that case, I’m staying in my house is what I’ll say about that. Um–

Em: Everyone in the comments is like, “I’m gonna be an influencer this time.” Like, it’s like, [chuckles] it’s like–

Christine: Ah! “This time.” Oh my god. Yes. Like, “I’ll take a bread– I’ll finally commit to sourdough”–

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: –you know? Yeah.

Em: Yeah. Oh, it’s so dark and sad, but–

Christine: It is. It is. It’s, it’s, it’s really insidious. Okay, here we go. So in late 2020, Dr. Caroline Muirhead, she’s 32 years old. She’s working as a forensic pathologist in Glasgow, not to be confused with “glass-gow”, which is how I used to say it, thinking I was saying it correctly–

Em: Same here.

Christine: –and was not, not. Caroline was recovering from a ba– [laughs] Sorry, I just got a text from Blaise: “The– [laughs] USPS just delivered the caterpillars,” and I was like, “What the fuck?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And then I remembered Leona ha– got a butterfly–

Em: Oh. [laughs]

Christine: –enclosure for Easter. Um–

Em: What i– It sounds like, um, some sort of like–

Christine: A code.

Em: –some spy, like the ma–

Christine: I know.

Em: –“the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plane.”

Christine: I know.

Em: “Click.”

Christine: Just like that spy co– that early spy code. Yeah. Um–

Em: “We can’t talk here. Walk with me.”

Christine: “Can’t talk. Get in the bunk– I’ll meet you in the bunker.” Okay.

Em: “Nearest payphone. Five minutes.”

Christine: “Caterpillars have arrived.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “They’ve, they’ve left the building.” Alright. So she is recovering from a bad relationship. She was– I, um, I don’t know if she’s had a bad relationship. She’s recovering from what she called a very toxic relationship, several years, um, kind of sunk into this, and, uh, ended very, very tough. It was a very tough breakup. She is kind of going stir-crazy, like we all are. She gets on the dating apps, and she’s on Tinder and is trying to get back out there, but again, it’s 2020. Like already a tough time, and then to be like going through a breakup. So she’s on there, and she realizes Glasgow is just too small of a search area, so she widens the net, so to speak. And she finds this guy named Sandy– Alexander. He went by “Sandy” McKellar on Tinder. Sandy was over six feet tall. He’s 31, bachelor, works as a farmer and a deer stalker, aka like a hunter/like lives off the land type of, you know, kind of manly man thing.

Em: That kind of didn’t help. Like stalking deer or stocking? Like–

Christine: Oh, stalker [pronounced “stall-ker”]. Like stalking them.

Em: Oh, he really is stalking them. Like he’s–

Christine: With a weapon, with high r– with a wea–

Em: So he’s a hunter. Why are we saying it any other way?

Christine: He– Because we’re in Glasgow. I don’t know.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Maybe that’s what they call it. I have no clue.

Em: In my mind, I thought like he stalks a deli with deer meat or something.

Christine: Oh! [laughs] Like he stalks the fridge. Yeah. Oh–

Em: And then you didn’t make it any better ’cause you’re like, “He’s in the woods,” and I’m like, “Okay, so he’s–“ [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] No, it’s, um, uh– I guess it’s sort of like–

Em: Sorry.

Christine: It's like, it’s like an old– It’s like– It feels like an old-timey way to say he’s– he– he’s a hunter.

Em: It’s only telling you step one of his process. He’s like–

Christine: Let’s just say–

Em: –“Yeah, I stalk it.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. “I stalk them first.” Yikes.

Em: “I’m also a deer murderer.”

Christine: That’s called red flag. Yeah. What if you just stalk them though?

Em: [laughs] That’d be crazy.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: What a silly little hobby.

Christine: What if you wanted to stalk, but you’re like, “That’s a bad– I wanna get it out in a healthy way. I’ll stalk deer.”

Em: I feel like that’s kind of like people watching, but we just say it nicer. It’s like, “I just like to observe very–“

Christine: Really good point.

Em: Yeah, I don’t know.

Christine: Yeah, really good point. Maybe just go for a walk and just leave it at that and keep the rest of my thoughts to myself in my head.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Okay. So anyway, he has this profile, says he’s a farmer, uh, [chuckles] deer stalker – hot. Um–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –just kidding. Uh, he’s 31. He’s over six feet tall. He lives and works on something called the Auch Estate (A-U-C-H)–

Em: Well done.

Christine: –near the Bridge of Orchy in the Scottish Highlands. And they like clicked immediately. I mean, somehow the chemistry is exactly right, and it’s COVID times, and things go super duper fast. I think a lot of people who met during that COVID time can relate. They were like, “Fuck it. We’re already all kind of screwed, and the world’s on fire. Let’s move in together.”

Em: “You’re a deer stalker. I’m a deer. Let’s make it happen.”

Christine: [laughs] “I’m a– I have a PhD, and you stalk deer. I think we’re a perfect match.”

Em: “They call me Bambi. Yeah.”

Christine: [chuckles] Oh, wow. Oh, I– That’s a good pickup line. “Call me Bambi.” Okay.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Okay. Um, so Caroline, uh, like really got drawn into this guy. And remember, she’s coming out of a very tough breakup, right?

Em: Sure.

Christine: So she kind of dives head first into this relationship. Some of her friends are like, “Ooh, it’s going a little fast.” Um, within five weeks of meeting, they are engaged.

Em: Oh, whoa. Okay.

Christine: And it sort of happened because she would come up to visit all the time, uh, on his land, and they would take like the ATVs, four-wheelers, whatever you call them, the deer stalkers.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I don’t know what they’re called over there. Uh, he would take– they would take them and like go smoke and drink in the woods and like party and have fun, and it’s– you know, she just was like–

Em: I mean, talk about like if you’re gonna date someone during the pandemic–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –and you have to like quarantine with people or like isolate yourself, there’s no–

Christine: In the Scottish Highlands?

Em: –the Scottish Highlands in the middle of nowhere, just an ATV and you and nature. I mean, that is– that’s six feet apart for sure from others.

Christine: And, and beer. Yeah. Just like– Yeah. So they were just, you know, riding high, like rose-colored glasses 100%. Sandy also– And he was by the way over six feet tall, 6’2” or whatever. So she met him. She’s like, “He wasn’t even lying about his height.”

Em: Good for him.

Christine: I know. So he also had a twin brother, and, uh, the three of them became fast friends, and she became kind of enmeshed in his friend circle as well. And everything was pretty hunky dory, except when Sandy drank he would get a little bit not like himself. Um, he would get dark.

Em: Okay.

Christine: His twin brother once told Caroline at a party that Sandy was, quote, “not right in the head.” Um, and she kind of just like brushed it off, ’cause what does that even mean? Everyone was drunk, and she said, “Whatever. Um, you know who is right in the head?” So things are, things are a little red flag-y, but she keeps going. Um, she later said she felt “vulnerable” and was looking for kind of an escape and just like a way to let off steam and–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –you know, he like adored her, and so she just felt like full steam ahead.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: She actually recalled thinking, “What’s the worst that could happen?” [laughs]

Em: I, I– This is the last time I’ll make a joke about deer stalker, but I do– I– the more I’m finding out that he’s like not right in the head, I’m kind of like, did he just come up with like– is he just inserting words like that into his career? 'Cause I feel like–

Christine: I don’t, I don’t think so. Even though it does feel that way and they do ha– Well, so they do highlight, at least in the documentary and in– I think it was in Glamour or some, some publication, but they talked about his early access to guns and how, since the age of like eight or nine, his parents would just have guns lying around the house. And like keep in mind, this is not in the USA, right?

Em: Right.

Christine: This is not a normal thing in other countries, and not that it’s necessarily normal to have weapons around your nine-year-old laying around, like in the open. Sure? Like that’s– Obviously, we all think that’s inappropriate, but like to have that there where pistols are actually illegal to own–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and there are just like pistols laying out, and there is a ni– two nine-year-old boys in the house, and they are being taught to stalk and kill– so to speak, hunt deer from like a very young age.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And so it, it does all kind of track in that sense.

Em: It’s, it’s adding up quickly, the things you’re telling me. And also–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –now I’m wondering like– I could see either side like you’re– Like when I’m thinking of they were engaged within five weeks, originally I was like, “Oh, what a whirlwind love in the middle of a pandemic,” but part of me is also like, “Oh, was there a control situation going on here?”

Christine: I– You know, it’s like– I think even when she looks back and talks about it, she’s like– It just for everybody seemed like– You know, you’re in it, and it’s a whirlwind, and you’re just like–

Em: Sure.

Christine: It's almost like mania, I feel like. [chuckles] like you’re almost in it, and you’re like, “Well, can’t stop the train now,” and then–

Em: Sure, okay.

Christine: You know, at a certain point– I mean, let me know what you think when you get more details, I guess.

Em: Sure. Yeah, I’m going off of nothing so far.

Christine: So– Well, not, not nothing, I would say. Um, in late November of 2020, uh, they’re planning– They’re lovey-dovey. They’re planning like getting married, and she’s like, “Are you serious? Like, you really wanna marry me?” And he’s like, “Yes, I do. You’re so special to me,” and she’s like, “I can’t believe this.” And they’re talking about their future marriage. And she tells him, “You know, we’ve only just met, so if we’re gonna get married, we have to tell each other everything. You need to tell me everything you’re proud of, and you need to be able to tell me everything you’re not proud of.” And they’re kind of like getting deep and talking, and a police car drives past the property, and Sandy has a panic attack.

Em: Mm.

Christine: He’s gasping for air. He’s wailing, and he tells Caroline, “I’ve done a horrible, horrible thing.”

Em: Oof.

Christine: She, of course, immediately gets this dread. And she’s like, “What? It– I’m sure it can’t be that bad, Sandy. Tell me what happened.” He says, “Three years ago, I was out drinking with my brother, and he got in the car, drunk, and he hit a cyclist with his car.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: She was like, “What do you mean you hit a cyclist?” And he says, “I was drunk. It was foggy. I didn’t see him, and I hit him, and it was too late by the time I hit him.” And she starts freaking out, and she’s like, “Whoa, what do you mean? How could the– How could that happen?” He says, “It, it was his life or mine, so I never told anyone.”

Em: Oh.

Christine: He admitted that he and Robert had hidden the body and that he had been on the run from the police ever since.

Em: Oh, is that why he lives out in the middle of fucking nowhere?

Christine: So he actually grew up there. So that– He already did live on that property–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –but yes, sort of. Yes, also.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And it wouldn’t be the last time he’s like hiding out there. She’s like, “Why, why didn’t you report it?” He says, “My whole life would have been taken away for an accident if I had told the police.” Right? So she’s like, “What the fuck, Sandy?” Like, “What do you mean? You can’t just tell me you killed someone.” And he’s like, “I’m freaking out. I’m freaking out.”

Em: That’s–

Christine: “You’re the only one I’ve ever told.”

Em: I was gonna say that’s also crazy of him to say to her if he’s that afraid of it getting reported. It’s like, “Well, now it’s probably gonna get reported.”

Christine: So she is like, “What the fuck am I supposed to do with this?” And, you know, she’s freaking out. She’s trying to, to remain calm and be like w– make sense of the situation. And he tells her through tears, “He’s right beneath your feet when we shoot clay pigeons.”

Em: [gasps]

Christine: I just got like full body chills.

Em: Like, we’re just saying all of it.

Christine: Just saying it.

Em: Like he’s really word vomiting– He’s wanted it off his–

Christine: Fucking spilling.

Em: He’s wanted it off his chest for quite some time, it seems.

Christine: 100, 100%. So they go back to ho– they go back home, and she’s like, he is like so relieved, right? Like you said, he’s unburdened himself. He feels like, “Oh my god, I got this off my chest.” He falls asleep.

Em: Crazy.

Christine: She’s like, “I’m in the middle of nowhere. I’m freaking the fuck out, and I’m sleeping next to a murderer, and I’m trying to remain calm.”

Em: I also like– I– I’m noting now, and maybe I’m totally wrong, but I’m just gonna like hold on to this little bullet point–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –that like the fact that he now feels so unburdened and now he can go to bed, I’m like– I would have a whole new even like equal to bigger fear now that like at any moment someone’s gonna spill the beans.

Christine: I think she was so insistent like, “Hey, you can tell me anything, and–“

Em: Sure.

Christine: “–I– like we–“ And I think she really meant it and didn’t realize what would be coming, you know–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –like said like, “You can tell me anything.” And I think they really were just connected in that way where he was like– and when she said, “Okay, it’s gonna be alright. Like I’ll stay with you, and I’ll still marry you–”

Em: Oof.

Christine: –because she’s like, “I don’t know what else to say, and I’m scared.” Then he was like, “Thank god. Like finally I can really marry you, knowing you know my darkest secret,” you know. Like I think he was more relieved that he could tell somebody and she wanted to stay with him.

Em: Mm.

Christine: In reality, she’s over there on her phone googling, “cyclist–“ Imagine how much you’d be shaking. Like she’s googling, “cyclist death hit-and-run in the–”

Em: And like you– And then– Oh my god, then you’re finding out all about this person and learning about their life and empathizing with the family and–

Christine: Well, it’s like you just knew what I was gonna say. Okay. So she looks up the story, and lo and behold, exactly matching the story that Sandy had told her: September 29, 2017, uh, this 63-year-old man – he was a retired Royal Navy officer and grandfather – Tony Parsons, Anthony Parsons. He was a prostate cancer survivor. He was on a 104-mile solo charity bike ride.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: He set off from Fort William and was heading home to Tillicoultry. And earlier that day, Sandy and Robert had been drinking at the Bridge of Orchy Hotel with a German hunting group. They had too much to drink. Incidentally, this Tony guy also stopped at the same hotel for coffee at 11:30 p.m., and the hotel staff were like, “Wow, it’s late. Like, you should stay the night.” And he said, “I can’t. I’ve got to keep cycling.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: So he goes on. Then Sandy and his brother leave, drunk, and he drives his Isuzu D-Max pickup truck, uh, over the alcohol limit, speeding. Robert is in the passenger seat. Sandy hits Tony on his bicycle from behind on the A82 near the Bridge of Orchy. Tony suffered “catastrophic” injuries, including broken ribs, a fractured pelvis, and a fractured spine. So she finds all this out. And like imagine googling this and finding the local news– There’s news articles. There’s new– There’s people saying, “If you have any information,” you know, “his family’s looking for who did this, and like this man was just killed and left, and nobody knows where, where he is.” You know, it’s just, it’s, it’s just heinous. It’s horrible.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So this is where it gets even worse because around this time he, Sandy, comes home to meet, uh, Caroline’s family, and she feels like she’s lost control of the train because she’s like, “I pretended to be okay with this. I couldn’t tell anyone. Now he’s meeting my family. He fits in great. They love him. Now I’m like in it. And I’m like how do I get out of it without getting in danger, without like–“

Em: Or in trouble with the law ’cause now you’re an accomplice.

Christine: In trouble with the law. Like she’s like, “I have to do the right thing. I don’t know how to,” and she’s also emotionally so vulnerable and confused. So Caroline did not tell the police immediately. And this is where people start to get a little bit like, uh– that people debate about this story a little bit on like whether she did the r– She did the right thing because she did go to the police, right? But people are like, “Why didn’t she go sooner?” And, “Why–“ You know, it– She went to the police, but she did wait about a month before reporting it. Um, he had come over for Christmas and all that and had met the family. She was just like feeling like out of body, confused and surreal and sick to her stomach. So she tells police, “I have something to tell you.” She tells her parents first, and they’re like, “We– Let’s call the police together.” They call the police, who arrest Sandy and Robert, but then she finds out they’re released because they have no physical evidence or body.

Em: Really? She can’t just say, “Go where we used to shoot the–“ Okay. Well, obviously that’s gonna happen. Okay.

Christine: So she looks on Google Maps, but it’s such a big property that she’s like, “I don’t know where. Like, we would go out there to shoot clay pigeons, but like I–“ You can’t just say like, “This whole acre,” or, you know, whatever.

Em: That’s–

Christine: You can’t say like, “this square mile.” Like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –it would have to be much more specific. And so, she’s like, “I– It’s in this area,” but it’s a private property, so they can’t just like barge in there and start looking. And so, she’s kind of stuck. And she– Of course, now one of her biggest fears is that they find out that she’s the one who told the police, right? So the two are released, and–

Em: Horrifying.

Christine: –Sandy calls her. And she answers the phone, and he says, “Oh my god, this horrible thing happened. Like the police ca– I don’t know how they knew,” and she has to pretend like she has no clue h–

Em: He didn’t suspect it was her?

Christine: So he really didn’t.

Em: Hm.

Christine: He did later.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And he found out, but at the beginning, he really believed that she wasn’t the one.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Which is just wild to me.

Em: Hm.

Christine: So during this time, she’s really spiraling. And one of the biggest controversies about this case is the lack of support she was given. Because she was a crown witness for this case, and she was going to be like the primary– like the lynchpin of this case, right? She has this confession. She has this information. She’s even been told where the body is. And yet they arrest these guys, let them go, and then le– leave her to fend for herself. So she’s out there being like, “What if they find out it was me?”

Em: Of course.

Christine: “What if, you know, my family’s in danger? What if–“ Who knows? And the police essentially dismiss her. And she is, um, really, in my opinion, uh, treated very, very poorly by, uh, police, who basically– at least several of the investigators who claim like, “Well, she should have done this differently. She should have known better. She was a– She had–“ One of them was, “She has a PhD. She should know better.” And I’m like, “Don’t–“

Em: Ex-fucking-cuse me?

Christine: “–talk about–“

Em: A PhD in this?

Christine: Yeah. Don’t fucking talk about– As if you know– Ss if anyone would know what to do, right? It like really pisses me off, especially because a lot of this was like just her not knowing who– what to do. I mean, she was totally lost.

Em: And at this point, I don’t know if you have information on this, but did Tony Parson’s family hear that there was some sort of like, like reopening of the case?

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Because I would be fucking fuming if I found out finally someone maybe knows where my dad or my husband is and they’re just out now and we’re not really even gonna try.

Christine: Okay. So, but when they were released, it was pending further investigation. So it wasn’t like–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –“Oh, they’re released for good.” It was like they’ve been arrested–

Em: [sighs] Okay.

Christine: –and it was announced. And now all of a sudden, everybody is reaching out to Caroline and going, “What happened? I heard the boys were arrested. What’s going on?” And so she’s playing this weird game of like pretending she didn’t– pretending she doesn’t know–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –to the outsiders, pretending to Sandy that she’s not the one who, who told. Like she’s just playing this like r– bizarre part. Um, they didn’t have physical evidence or a body, and police said, “Why don’t you try to get a little more information out of them?”

Em: I would–

Christine: And this is where, this is where it all goes wrong.

Em: –just be like, “Actually, how about you’re the goddamn police and you get more information out of them?”

Christine: Precisely.

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Christine: It goes really, really, really, really rough. Okay? So she begins spending more time with him. She’s already isolated by all this. It’s COVID. Like she’s not getting the support she needs. She’s already gone through a traumatic relationship. Now she’s like kind of in this weird place where she’s like, “I was not making good decisions. I went back to the property to, to be there and just be away from everything. And like he treated me well, and so I just went with it.” And she said, “I told myself I would get more information for the family. I’d be able to like close the case,” you know. So she kind of moves in, and her family is like, “Shit. Like first, she tells us her fiance that we just met killed this guy, and then she moves in with him.” and–

Em: I can’t imagine the cortisol spikes, [chuckles]–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –like the, the adrenaline just shooting through me at all– ’Cause at any moment you hear a sound– and you’re in an unfamiliar place–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –‘cause she moved to his property–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –which, by the way, is where the body is so she’s– now has time to go looking for it, I guess.

Christine: Yep.

Em: But like you’re in a new house, new sounds, in the middle of nowhere with a guy who might find out, and, although it wasn’t intentional it sounds like, still killed somebody. Like it’s–

Christine: By the way, and his brother, who also lives there, so it’s like the two people who–

Em: Girl. Oh my god.

Christine: Yeah. And I’m sure the brother was not thrilled that his brother told his fiance what they did.

Em: Well, the brother had to wonder, for sure. The brother had to be like, “Did you tell anyone?”

Christine: Oh, he did.

Em: And then he went, “Oh, I kind of told her.” He had to think it would be fucking her.

Christine: Oh, he actually thought it was her, and Sandy said, “She would never do that to me.” And she talks about how, how deeply like hard that was to see like this man that she had like fallen in love with, right, before this all happened–

Em: Who like has full faith in them.

Christine: –being like, “She would never do this to me. She would never do this to us. You have to believe me.” And like being like, “Yeah, of course, I wouldn’t,” but like also knowing she has to do the right thing–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –for the family. It just seems like an impossible situation. And so, you know, I can understand like, “I wouldn’t have done that. She would have done– She shouldn’t have–“ Whatever. But like at the same time, nobody really knows what they would have done. And like ultimately, she did do the right thing and– I don’t know. It could be debated ’til the cows come home. I don’t think there’s really a way to know what she was thinking and feeling.

Em: And like–

Christine: But–

Em: –no, no one trains you for what to do in that situation. No ju–

Christine: No, certainly–

Em: You’re just surviving.

Christine: –certainly not.

Em: You’re surviving.

Christine: So she’s over there, and she’s sort of like [sighs] in this weird middle ground of like deciding whether she’s really in this relationship or if she’s just here to like get intel, you know, and like is she here ’cause she wants to be or with– because the police told her– it seems unclear to her even. Um, and one day, uh, the brother, Robert, says drunkenly– By the way, they’re going on like benders during this time. They’re just like totally losing it. Because she’s like, “I just didn’t know how to survive. Like we were just on drugs. We were drinking. We were trying to escape, you know, and like–“

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: “–ev–“ You were– You’re right. Like every time a siren or a police car would drive by, apparently, Sandy would have a panic attack. Like they were just–

Em: Well, yeah.

Christine: Yeah. I mean, he already did the first time he told her. Then Robert comes to her and says, “It’s worse than what he told you.”

Em: [gasps]

Christine: I know.

Em: Which kind of crazy that Robert is now telling her even though–

Christine: I know.

Em: –he kind of suspects that she told the light-hearted version.

Christine: I agree.

Em: Like what was go– He must have been kicking a few back or something.

Christine: I think they were really– Yeah. Yep. And he says, “We actually realized after we hit him that he was still alive.”

Em: [gasps] No. They could have not– They could have– I mean–

Christine: Yep. Yeah. They could have–

Em: They could have just helped him–

Christine: –called.

Em: –and just like–

Christine: They could have called 911, 999.

Em: And they wouldn’t have gone to jail for manslaughter or anything like that.

Christine: Yeah. Yep. It’s like once you make that fatal decision of like– you’ve really fucked yourself because– Yeah. They– You know what they did? And this is the part that she said was the t– was a huge turning point for her is that she found out, not only did they just drive away, they actually moved his body to be out of the sightline, so if another car drove past, nobody would see him. So he’s like in agony, and they drag him out of sight so that he can’t be seen. Then they switch cars and come back.

Em: Oh, that’s so much more–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –first of all, unnecessarily elaborate.

Christine: Yes. Yes.

Em: I– It’s interesting that– I’m not saying they should have at all, but like I’m surprised their reaction wasn’t to actually kill him. Like, like it feels like they were– I guess they at least had something in them where like, “We can’t do that, but we could let it happen on its own over here without any help.” Like it’s like they’re both so– I mean, I don’t know. I– They’re both so fucked up.

Christine: You know, I mean–

Em: You could have just called for help.

Christine: I’ll be honest. They may have killed him if he did– wasn’t already dead by the time they got back, right? Like we don’t know.

Em: Right.

Christine: I mean, I don’t, I don’t necessarily know. We don’t know the details. But allegedly what happened was they– instead of calling 999, they left him. They moved his body out of view. Then they went home, got a different vehicle, a Toyota, to come back and move him. Then they destroyed his phone and his SIM card. Like, this is all very, you know, planned.

Em: This is so much worse.

Christine: Yes.

Em: So much worse.

Christine: Ye– So much worse. They burn his wallet. They hi– They burn his helmet ’cause they have something called a “kill pit” where they put the deer and like all that shit, so they’re able to dispose of stuff. They– She finds out over time– spending time with the brothers that they– that he hid the bicycle under the waterfall on the property so that nobody would find it. Um, they initially “hidded” Ton– “hidded”? They initially hid Tony’s body in a wooded area on the estate and then, uh, told her that they used an excavator to bury him in a remote peat bog on the estate. So they moved him. The spot they chose was a “kill pit” or a “stink pit”, um, used for dumping dead arn– animal carcasses ’cause that was such a big part of their job. Um, so they had a place that– And so once the detectives started digging– the forensic team started digging things up, they realized like these are all– there’s so many deer bones, and it’s because they had, you know, disposed of him–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So the spot they chose was this [sighs] “kill pit.” Sandy and Robert, um, got the car fixed, the Isuzu, but they told people that they had hit a deer, and that’s what, that’s what had happened. So when they talked to locals about the brothers, people knew them as, um, hunters, as outdoorsy kids, as kind of rabble-rousers, troublemakers. They grew up in a culture where like killing animals was just part of the norm from young on–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –so like there’s a certain part of them, people think, that was able to be shut off, like–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –you know, see the, see the human as like an animal instead of–

Em: Yeah, like–

Christine: That's my opinion from, from just understanding what happened here.

Em: I agree.

Christine: Especially with the alcohol mix and when he says like it just turns him into a different person. And, um, a lot of the evidence that was gathered is– Caroline would be playing chess on her laptop and would hit record on a voice note–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and she was like, “It was terrifying ’cause he could just kind of walk around and see.” But sometimes he would just like drunkenly say something, and she’d hit record, and he would say, you know, “I hid the bicycle behind the waterfall so no one could find it.” And she’s like, “Shit, I gotta like record this.”

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: And keep in mind, she’s on cocaine. Like they’re dr– they’re high out of their minds and drunk–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and so she’s like kind of has a grasp on what’s going on, kind of not.

Em: That’s so ballsy because like i-if he found out, who knows what would have happened next.

Christine: Exactly.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Especially when they’re drunk. Exactly. And so she finds out it’s even worse, and now she’s like really in it. And, um, she convinces him to show her–

Em: Mm. [sighs]

Christine: –where the body is.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Because he starts– So he starts getting paranoid that, um, construction on the estate that they’re planning would expose the grave, right? So she’s like, “Well, show me like where it is.” And by the way, do you remember what her job is?

Em: No.

Christine: She’s a forensic–

Em: Oh, yeah. Pathologist.

Christine: –pathologist, and she has a PhD in forensics. Like this is a person– And then so she starts wondering like, “Is that why he matched with me?”

Em: Mm.

Christine: “because like I would know about–“ And he had said to her several times like, “You and I both aren’t squeamish. You and I both understand things so– that like have to be done. You and I both understand like the gruesomeness behind it.” Like he had this kind of fixation that she wouldn’t be as horrified as other people might, if that makes sense.

Em: I, I do get that. But also–

Christine: It's not true.

Em: Sure.

Christine: She was like actually horrified. But yes, I mean–

Em: But no–

Christine: –you know, at a certain level.

Em: –I get what he– what maybe– what direction he was heading with it.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: But I also– I’m still surprised by that too, ’cause I would think if I had a body on my property that I’m trying to hide–

Christine: Right.

Em: –and then I match with someone who’s a forensic pathologist? “Ooh, never mind. Can’t make dinner.” Never talk to you again. Blocked.

Christine: Kind of crazy. You’re right.

Em: I’d be like, “Don’t get near this.”

Christine: Because it feels like the last person you would wanna bring to your property would be the person who could sense where a body– or not sense, but you know–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –like have any knowledge of a body. But like I wonder if part of it was, “Oh, I’m safe with this person.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like, “She won’t judge.” I think– I mean, that’s at least what he would tell her, and, um, you know, she made him feel safe, I guess, enough to open up about this. Um, so after she tells the police and they don’t do anything to kind of help her except say, “Go find out more ’cause we don’t have enough on them,” she, she moves in, gets wr– way wrapped up into this with the brother, with, with her fiance and the brother. Um, Robert, like I said, tol-told her eventually that it was way worse. Um, he said, and I quote, “When we hit that man, it happened very fast. We got out, and when we walked towards him, he was alive.” and, um, her mental health just tanked, right. She felt worthless. She was like, “I felt like total shit. I’d disappointed my family. I’d already like fucked up this long past relationship. Now I had a wedding dress. My family thought I was getting married. And it’s like a literal murderer, and I’m in the middle of it.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Like it just is a mess, um – understatement. She was doing cocaine and drugs, alcohol. She described herself as being in a state of “terror.” I mean, it sounds like she’s just in like f-fight, flight, freeze, like–

Em: Right.

Christine: –survival mode. And as Sandy becomes more and more paranoid, he’s like, “Can I show you where the body is and maybe you can help me?”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So that’s where she starts to think, “Is he just using me because I know how bodies work and I can dispose of it so that he doesn’t get further implicated?”

Em: Sure.

Christine: So she goes with him to the peat bog. Um, and she’s like, “So like where is it?” And he goes, “Right about here.” And she drops, she drops– she squishes and drops the Red Bull– the empty Red Bull can she was holding–

Em: Why?

Christine: –to mark the spot.

Em: Fucking brilliant, babe.

Christine: And then he goes, “Did you just litter?” I’m not even kidding. And she goes, “Oh, sorry.” And he goes, “Pick that up.” She literally describes this. She’s like, “I tossed it.” And she’s like, “And then he looked at me and was like, ‘Why’d you do that?’ And she was like, ‘Sorry, I don’t know what came over me.’”

Em: I will say she should have dropped something a little more indiscreet– like a little more discreet, like a–

Christine: I don’t think she planned it.

Em: Oh, oh, oh.

Christine: I think it was in the moment. And then he– She’s like, “Sorry, I don’t know why I did that,” and he goes, “Go get that.” So she picks it up, and she’s like– And then when he turns around, she’s like, “I put it back down–”

Em: Mm.

Christine: “–and left it there.” I mean, ballsy.

Em: Ballsy. Very ballsy. And I– I mean, we’re flying past the joke that is he’s upset that someone’s littering while he’s showing you the body he buried. But–

Christine: [chuckles] Yeah, he’s like, “What would you do that for?” She’s like–

Em: He’s like, “What are you, some sort of criminal?” Like– [laughs]

Christine: “Some sort of litterbug?” Right. Yeah. [laughs] “On my– Not on my property.”

Em: “What– Why are– I don’t really like that you break the law, actually. It’s really not attractive.”

Christine: “Hey, there’s a dead body down there and you’re littering on–“ I mean, it’s like– Yeah, you’re right. It’s absurd in, in, in a way.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It is. Right. Um, so wouldn’t you know it, that’s the Red Bull can that brought detectives right to the spot–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –where they found Tony’s body. And, um–

Em: You also– Like imagine dropping it and you just pray to god there’s not a windy night before the cops can get there. [chuckles]

Christine: She like crushed it in with her foot the second time. She’s like, “I’m gonna crush this down.”

Em: Oh, okay, good.

Christine: And then when she told them there’s a Red Bull can out there– When the brothers were arrested again and then released, she got a phone call– or they were questioned, I guess. I don’t know if they were arrested, but they were questioned and released, and she got a phone call, and she said, “Oh, hey, Sandy.” And he’s screaming, and he says, “You fucking did this. You fucking told them.” And she’s like, “That’s when I knew he found out. He somehow found out that I had been the, the witness,” right? And he’s like, “I’m coming over right now.”

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: And she’s like, “He’s, he’s gonna kill me. He’s gonna kill me.”

Em: Yeah. There’s no, there’s no other option. Like, uh–

Christine: She goes, “What do you mean? How do you– I didn’t tell them. What do you mean?” And he goes, “I saw the Red Bull ca-can, Caroline. They told me there was a Red Bull can that marked the spot.” So he knew she had left that there to mark the spot, and he knew that this had all been her design. So he shows up at her house, and she’s– she lets him in.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And they seemingly spark up another romance.

Em: What?

Christine: This is, this is why this story is like what’s happening? Like–

Em: Sorry?

Christine: I know.

Em: Repeat that one? So wait, they– Like was it like, like, like hate sex or something? I know that’s weird to say.

Christine: No, she just, she just– He’s like, “I still love you,” and she’s like–

Em: What? Okay. I was thinking like maybe like a, like a, a passi– like a–

Christine: Uh-uh.

Em: We don’t know–

Christine: They’re still–

Em: You know how when like there’s like– they’re, they’re fighting and so hati– they’re so mad and then they just like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –make out? Like I don’t know. That made more sense to me than like–

Christine: No.

Em: –“We’re gonna hash this out.”

Christine: No. Um, it’s plot twist of the century. You think he’s coming there to kill her, and then, I guess, like they make up.

Em: This is the most–

Christine: [laughs] [unintelligible] toxic–

Em: Like what– Like it’s like equivalent to like a love bombing where it’s just like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –the ups and downs and ups and downs.

Christine: I mean, like– Right, right, right, right, right.

Em: Top tier.

Christine: Oh my god. It’s just crazy town, and you’re watching this like, “How– I can barely keep up.” So I mean, the good news is, of course, now they, they find a body. Um, they’re able to bury Tony officially, um, on January– And on January 12, 2021, they were able to, to finally locate him, and his family was able to have a funeral three years after his disappearance.

Em: Mm.

Christine: But of course, you know, he finds out that his fiance is the one who, who told on him. But when he sees her– And by the way, she recorded this conversation too, so it’s really bizarre to be able to hear into people’s like arguments from–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –from something so shockingly big and scary. But he basically says– She screams at him like, “Why did you bring me into this?” Like, “Why did you bring me into this?” And he alm– He sort of breaks down. He’s like, “I’m the one who did this to you. You had no– Of course you went to the police. You’re a good person.” So like it’s–

Em: Oh, change of heart.

Christine: It’s almost like even harder for her to break away now because she’s like, “Well, he says it– Like he’s like, ‘I understand why you went to the police.’ Like–“

Em: I– The way that my brain works is the opposite in every situation you’ve told me so far.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Because I would think, “Oh, now he’s really gonna kill me. He’s like s– warming me up. Like he’s soft– like softening me up. Like like oh, he’s like acting like everything’s fine, and then when I least expect it, like I’m not afraid to be a–“

Christine: No, he’s like–

Em: “–alone in rooms with him–”

Christine: As she said, like he’s just a broken man. Like he’s just broken. And he would come to her and be like, “I did this horrible thing, and like you’re the only one I can talk to. You’re the only one who understands,” right? And it’s like that trope of like fixing the person.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And, um, she just said like, “At this point, I was trying to get information. Everybody thought I was crazy. And like I was on drugs, so I was like so not well, and like I was mentally really unstable. And then the trial is coming up, and they’re like, ‘You have to testify.’” You know, it’s just a mess. Okay? Her parents are just totally at a loss. So this is kind of the end of this like roller coaster, for now at least. Um, essentially what happened– It was a little bit anticlimactic, I guess. Um, there’s I guess this thing called, uh– there’s this thing in, in Scottish law called “corroboration”, which means they need two sources of evidence to, to prove something, right? So they had a body, but then they didn’t really have anything else. And Caroline was meant to testify on the stand. And she went on this long bender. She was really freaking out before, um, the trial. She didn’t feel confident in herself. She was almost– She was spiraling to the point that she was like, “Maybe I’m making all this up.” Like maybe– She just like felt so gaslit by her own–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –the stories and everything, right? She’s like totally a– confused. And the day– A few days before, uh, she gets this official letter in the mail that says, “If you don’t show up to court, you’ll be arrested, and like this will go on your permanent record.” Like sh– the, the police are like fucking treating her like trash.

Em: Wow.

Christine: And the day of the trial comes. She’s a no-show.

Em: Oh, is she dead?

Christine: Her– They call– No.

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: They call–

Em: I’m just waiting. I don’t know.

Christine: No, she’s alive. Thank god. They call her family. Her parents are like, “What do you mean? I like put her clothes out and everything this morning. She should– Where is she? She’s not at the courthouse.” Okay. Turns out she had a little bit of a– whether you wanna call it a break from reality or what have you, she had an episode, and she went to the waterfall.

Em: Oh.

Christine: And she said, “They– I don’t want–“ She said, “I can’t be relied on for my testimony alone. I need more evidence. I’m gonna find the bicycle.”

Em: And Miss Forensic Pathologist said, “I’m gonna do whatever I have to do.”

Christine: She gets her phone out. She’s filming this on Snapchat. She’s not sending it to anyone, but she’s like, “I was just filming the whole thing like a vlog sort of.” She’s like, “Here I am under a waterfall looking for my fiance’s–”

Em: Well, also, if she like had like a, a mental situation–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –going on where she like couldn’t even believe herself anymore, she’s like, “I’m filming for posterity. Like, I just–“

Christine: Yeah, no, that’s kind of what it was.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Right, exactly. Like her own vlog for posterity. And so she’s like vlogging this, and so, of course, they have this footage in the Netflix series. And it’s like really bizarre ’cause it’s like Snapchat footage–

Em: It’s so weird.

Christine: –and she has like the filter on. And she’s like underneath the waterfall like, “Well, I’m supposed to be in court. I was supposed to testify three hours ago. You know, I wonder if they’ll arrest me.” And then there are helicopters above, and she’s like, “Here they come.”

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Like I mean, she’s just like really kind of “losing it” as she kind of described, and, um, eventually, you know, she’s arrested. Uh, they put her in a cell, and she’s like, “What have I done? I, I missed testifying. I fucked this all up.” And they come to her, and they say, “Okay, the brothers have accepted a plea deal.” They– Sandy pleaded guilty to culpable homicide and attempting to pervert the course of justice and was sentenced to 12 years in prison.

Em: Okay.

Christine: His brother, Robert, pleaded guilty to attempting to pervert the course of justice and was sentenced to five years and three months in prison. Um–

Em: Why did he have such a lower sentence? Was he–

Christine: 'Cause he was the passenger.

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: And so he was less cul-culpable in that he was not driving the vehicle–

Em: Got it.

Christine: –which would have been like the murder weapon. Um, so yeah. I mean, it’s just really shocking, and, and part of the debate too is like, “Well, if she had testified, would they have been found guilty?”

Em: Right.

Christine: You know what I mean?

Em: Right.

Christine: Because– And so she argues– Which I understand too, it’s like nobody knows. But she also argues like, “Hey, I was in a fucking terrible place. They could have put me on the stand and who knows what I would have said.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “Like I was not well.” and so she’s like, “Maybe it’s for the best I didn’t testify. Like we don’t know.” Um, so either way, uh, they were both sentenced. Um, in his own words, Sandy said– uh, his lawyer spoke this on his behalf that he was “too much of a coward to come clean” and that he acted out of “fear and panic.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: The judge called the brothers “selfish and cowardly,” and Tony’s family received a six-figure payout from the car insurer, car insurer, which is standard in the UK, I guess, for motor vehicle fatalities. Um, Caroline and several other people, um, have– i-in the justice system as well, have criticized the police for failing to protect her and for saying like– and for asking her to go undercover–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –on their behalf and then giving her like–

Em: And not even be helpful. Like just like so–

Christine: Totally. And then threatening to arrest her. It’s like this is, this is the shit you see, like this harassment. And, and so, you know, she was really going through it. She’s like, “Well, they wanted me to help, but then I had to pretend to be on their side. But then I kind of was, and I was on drugs.” I mean, the whole thing was a mess. And these men who were like, “Well, she had a doctorate.” It’s like, fuck you.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Like, “Oh, she was wearing a thong.”

Em: Like truly back the fuck up.

Christine: You know, like, “She was asking for it.” Like fuck you. So anyway, as of 2026, as far as we know, Caroline lives by the sea. She is sober now, and she is in a new relationship with a man that she describes as “kind.”

Em: Good.

Christine: So that is the story, and talk about [sighs] ups and downs, man.

Em: Did you watch, uh– First of all, well done telling that.

Christine: Oh, well, thank you. I mean, it was a– It tells itself really.

Em: Did you, um, see the movie, The Drama?

Christine: I don’t think so.

Em: It just like– It just came out like not too long ago.

Christine: Oh, no.

Em: Um, but it had, um, Zendaya and Robert Pattinson in it.

Christine: Oh, is it good?

Em: It is. It’s not exactly this situation–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –but it is very– There were similar notes.

Christine: Reminiscent? Mm.

Em: Um, basically they’re about to get married, and they decide they’re gonna tell each other like what’s the worst thing either of us have ever done.

Christine: Oh my god. That was like the conversation that they had to start this whole thing. Be careful, people.

Em: Yeah. And like Robert Pattinson is like this like just very–

Christine: Wait, don’t, don’t– No spoilers for people.

Em: Well, no, just he’s like just this very goofy guy and like can’t even think of anything, and then she ends up having something–

Christine: I see.

Em: –something adjacent to this. I won’t say–

Christine: So it’s like her secret.

Em: –totally similar, but, but then he– I mean, the whole movie is him grappling with like–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –“How do I marry somebody with this infor– that like–“

Christine: That’s– Wow.

Em: It’s very, um– And it’s a good movie if you– It’s, it’s certainly, um, a conversation piece. I saw it with my mom, and it was a, a good ta– It was very topical, I think.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, it’s a q– Let’s just put this way. It’s a question that a lot of people in the next generation might– not a lot, but someone will have to have this conversation in the next–

Christine: Oh my god. I wanna watch this–

Em: –upcoming generation.

Christine: Literally, I’m gonna hang up on you and watch this now. I’m so curious.

Em: It’s very topical. I– That’s all I’m gonna say. And it’s a–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –really good conversation starter. The end, but it’s– I think–

Christine: That's all we need, more conversation starters. [chuckles]

Em: Um, yeah. No, I, I don’t think it’s a, a conversation to have here certainly, but um, you know, it’s worth it. If you watch it with somebody, it’ll make you guys talk afterwards.

Christine: Ooh, okay. Movie club.

Em: Um, but no, great, great storytelling. What a disaster of a story though.

Christine: I know, man. And I– It’s just like– It’s just a train wreck really.

Em: Did you, um– Where is she now?

Christine: She’s, um–

Em: You said she’s living by the sea?

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Great place to live.

Christine: Don’t I know it? [chuckles]

Em: I’ve [chuckles] always wanted to live by the sea.

Christine: I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know it, but– [laughs]

Em: Um, well, good job, Christine. What are, what are your plans for the rest of the day?

Christine: Man, Leona’s at the zoo, so I think I’m gonna watch this movie, The Drama, and just like talk to myself. What are you gonna do?

Em: Um, I’m sure there’s something. I need to cl– There’s– The whole other side of this bench is a, a nightmare, so I sh– probably should clean, but [whispers] I don’t know if I’m going to. So–

Christine: Please don’t.

Em: [whispers] I don’t know. We’ll see. [at normal volume] Depends on my mood. I need to eat something at some point, so.

Christine: So do I.

Em: Anyway.

Christine: Exciting.

Em: [laughs] Yeah. Nothing really crazy’s going on right now. Uh–

Christine: Remember when we would record and then like go to, um– What was that thing? The outside movies?

Em: Oh, Street Food Cinema?

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Yeah. They– We–

Christine: Okay. That happened like twice, but still. [laughs]

Em: That’s coming up. I think it actually starts next week, so.

Christine: I remember. It was the day I got my tattoo. I think we went with like Matt and Chanel and–

Em: Yes, to see Back to the Future.

Christine: That’s right. 'Cause Gio dressed up.

Em: 'Cause it was our birthday weekend, and you got the tattoo, and I wanted to go see Back to the Future in the park.

Christine: And then s– That’s right. And then someone stole that picture of Gio and got a bunch of credit for it on Reddit–

Em: I forgot about that.

Christine: –in the Back to the Future subreddit. I was like, “That’s my dog.” Anyway.

Em: [laughs] Um, no. I– What am I do– I have the dog park. I, I told you I’m throwing Hank a “bark mitzvah” for his b-day next month. I told you that?

Christine: Uh-uh.

Em: Oh, yeah. 'Cause he’s technically gonna be 13, right?

Christine: Oh my–

Em: In human years.

Christine: –god.

Em: So he’s gonna have a bark mitzvah. Um, gonna make everyone at the dog park play dreidel.

Christine: That’s nuts.

Em: We got him some Star of David cookies.

Christine: I’m so excited. What the fuck?

Em: He has a bandana that says “Nice Jewish boy,” which I love.

Christine: [laughs] Jeez.

Em: Um, I’m trying to find him a– Well, we have talked about this because I remember saying “yarmulke” and then trying to turn it into “pawmulke” and then it not working.

Christine: That was not, that was not me.

Em: Hm. Well, I still– I did it again.

Christine: Maybe it was a weird dream we both had, but I don’t remember it.

Em: Maybe. But, uh, we’re gonna– It’ll be fun. And he’s, um– I’m also– at some point– I’ve decided I’m now just the mayor of the dog park ’cause I’m gonna start throwing events there.

Christine: Sure. [laughs] [unintelligible]

Em: And my first event–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –is going to be, um, a spelling bee at the dog park. [laughs]

Christine: Shut– Wait, for whom? For the dogs?

Em: No, for– Can you imagine? I’ve f-fully lost the plot?

Christine: I mean, I don’t know why. What else would you host a do– event for at a dog park? I don’t understand.

Em: Well, you know, the people at the dog park are friends and just to prevent boredom, I’m just gonna–

Christine: You’re hosting a spelling bee.

Em: –just gonna shove everyone into a spelling bee and be like–

Christine: I wanna do the spelling bee. I would win the spelling bee.

Em: Some people have already told me they’re– I mean, I’ve announced it to people. I’m like, “A spelling bee is coming. So like if you’re here that day, you’re gonna be a part of the spelling bee.”

Christine: Is it like a pop quiz?

Em: I guess. I’m not– I, I warned people that a spelling bee would be there eventually.

Christine: That’s really, really, really evil.

Em: I mean, if they don’t wanna do–

Christine: Not for me, I’m excited about that, but–

Em: If they don’t wanna do it, they don’t have to. But I will be asking everyone there on a busy day who wants to be part of the spelling bee. And a lot of people have already volunteered.

Christine: May I ask like why a spelling bee?

Em: I was just trying to think of something that would require no money.

Christine: Oh.

Em: 'Cause I also thought eventually I’d like to do a bingo there. People have said they wanna do a trivia–

Christine: Oh, I see.

Em: –um, a movie in the park, so that way all the dogs can be there but we can also watch a movie.

Christine: Okay. Okay.

Em: So.

Christine: Wait. So what’s the first word in the spelling be?

Em: I don’t know. But I feel like I got to start easy. People have requested to start easy, um, which duh. It’s gotta get harder and harder.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s part of it.

Em: But I don’t know how easy to start. Like are we just spelling “dog”? Like that’s not fair.

Christine: Yeah, yeah. You can telehealth me, and I’ll, um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –I’ll participate that way.

Em: Um, I, I do have a couple people who have already said that they will participate in the first round only because they will not make it past the first round. They, uh, do not–

Christine: [laughs] They can’t spell “dog”?

Em: –do not claim to be good spellers.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um, but no, I’m very excited. I’ve been talking about it for a while. I started a walking group there.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: I really have become a bit of like the PTA parent at the dog park.

Christine: Oh, wow. You’re like event coordinator.

Em: But, uh, no, there’s like a, a group of us that all do laps together and–

Christine: Oh my god, you’re like mall walkers.

Em: Yeah, we are like mall walkers, but we’re dog park walkers. And then, um– But no, it’s– So I was like, “Oh, what else could we do?” And I said spelling bee, and everyone was like, “That’d be the, the most random one,” and I was like, “Okay, we’ll do that next.” So I think I’m gonna do the bark mitzvah in May, then for my birthday maybe it’ll be the spelling bee. 'Cause that’s a good reason to force people to do things is use my birthday.

Christine: It feels like my birthday is a spelling bee. I, I never thought you’d have a spelling bee birthday, but yeah, it sounds right down my alley.

Em: Preferably, I’d like to host a drunk spelling bee, but I, I can’t get people to get drunk in public at a dog park.

Christine: You’re not gonna get them wasted in the dog park. Yeah–

Em: I–

Christine: –that’d be a little troublesome.

Em: I know that that’s my next step. This is just the practice spelling bee.

Christine: Oh, this is to get your just like handle–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –on the event space. And then–

Em: I like throwing little events. I never get to do it anymore. So I– That’s the dog park. People seem to be fine with it.

Christine: Exciting.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Exciting.

Em: Yesterday, I went early, and we cleaned up the park ’cause the foxtails are out–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –and so we had to– we did a whole cleaning crew situation. Very nice.

Christine: Oh, and you’re taking care of the space. I love this.

Em: It’s, um, [sighs] it’s my– part of my every fucking day, so I might as well learn to like it, so.

Christine: Might as well.

Em: And I’m trying to make it more fun by things like a spelling bee, so.

Christine: Well, if any– if ever you bury a body, I know where to look.

Em: [laughs] Yeah. Well, Hank’s body will probably be buried there one day with a nice little grave that I tend to.

Christine: Aww.

Em: Anyway, I don’t, I don’t know how we got here, but that’s–

Christine: I don’t know either.

Em: –what I’m doing today is the dog park ’cause it’s all I do, so.

Christine: Fantastic. Well, you say hi to your constituents. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –I’m gonna go lay down. [laughs]

Em: Thank you. Um, other than that, yeah, tell Gio I say hi. Hank says hi.

Christine: He’ll know what it means.

Em: He’ll know what it means. Tell him, tell him Hank says– [blows into mic]

Christine: Gio says [makes a nasal grunting sound]. That’s what he does. [makes a nasal grunting sound]

Em: I’m not gonna tell Hank ’cause he’ll take that personally, but–

Christine: [chuckles] He, he should. [laughs]

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It's pretty rude.

Em: [laughs] Okay. And–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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