E485 A Biblically Accurate Batman and a Birthday Bark Mitzvah

TOPICS: ESTEFANÍA GUTIÉRREZ LÁZARO AKA THE VALLECAS CASE, SERIAL KILLER ASTROLOGY

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It’s Episode 485 and we’re micro dosing mania because we finally don’t feel like a bruise. This week in celebration of our birthday’s Em covers a ouija board haunting case from Spain - the story of Estefanía Gutiérrez Lázaro aka The Vallecas Case. Then we’re looking to the stars for Christine’s coverage of Serial Killer Astrology. And will you all be the graphing calculators to our hearts? …and that’s why we drink!

Link to the r/astrologymemes post: https://www.reddit.com/r/astrologymemes/comments/1s4ax3m/the_actual_statistics_on_the_zodiac_signs_of/

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Transcript

[intro music]

Em: Mm. [rubbing their eyes]

Christine: [laughs] You look like you’re getting ready to talk to your teenager about drugs.

Em: [laughs] Just like I already look disappointed. I’m s–

Christine: [laughs] You already–

Em: Haven’t said a word.

Christine: You already know I’m high. Like you looked at my eyes and went, “Well, fuck.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] I was like, “I’ve tried to play along and be on your side against your mother’s will this whole time–“

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “–but it’s gone too far. I have to side with her.”

Christine: It’s–

Em: “This is getting really gross.”

Christine: It’s finally time for you to step in. And, “I’m so sorry I’ve disappointed you, Dad.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Uh, welcome to our podcast. It’s called And That’s Why We Drink. Um, things are tough out there, man. But you know what? We’re still making it work. I’m Christine, and I’m here to bring you some bad news about true crime. And, um, I’m–

Em: I–

Christine: –here with my co-host, Dad. [chuckles]

Em: The one who’s [chuckles] apparently always trying to be the fun parent but is put in a sticky situation every now and then.

Christine: [laughs] That’s how you’ve been typecast, yes.

Em: I’m Em Schulz, and, uh, today is, um, a big day for us. This is our birthday episode.

Christine: Ah! Speaking of which, how was your son’s birthday?

Em: Ah!

Christine: The bark, bark mitzvah. I saw the pictures.

Em: Oh, did you?

Christine: It looked delightf– I did. It looked delightful.

Em: He, uh, is a big boy now. He’s a man ’cause he’s technically 13.

Christine: Right.

Em: Um, it went very well. Uh, I was shocked how many people bring gifts to a–

Christine: [chuckles] I–

Em: –dog bark mitzvah–

Christine: I guess–

Em: –at their own dog park.

Christine: I guess if you don’t write “no gifts,” you know, people are just gonna–

Em: I, I truly just– I mean, I even told people at the park– I was like, “Oh, we’re gonna have a little thing, you know, just, you know, want to invite you to know what time to be here,” and everyone just started showing up with gifts. It was– I was like–

Christine: You should do more of them.

Em: –“I didn’t mean to make a thing.” I know. [chuckles] I should be like, “Oh–“

Christine: You should be like, “Actually, so he had his bar mitzvah. Now what’s next? Uh…”

Em: Now it’s my birthday, and I’ll be like, “Oh, I’m just having a little thing at the dog park, so.”

Christine: [laughs] “Oops, I–“ [chuckles] “Yes, it will be– Hank will be there, and he will be accepting presents. Thank you.”

Em: [laughs] Um, no, it was a very nice time. And actually today, now we’re going to another doggy birthday at the dog park, so.

Christine: It's the– It’s all the rage I hear, these dog birthdays.

Em: I– You know, and I– They’re, they’re doing the one thing I did not do where they’re, uh– the owner is bringing little mini, um, like Solo cups with the shot glass size, and she’s gonna be–

Christine: For pup–

Em: For pup cups.

Christine: That’s so smart.

Em: I was like, “That– Uh, genius.” Uh, whipped cream was the only thing I didn’t bring at my party.

Christine: That’s the only thing you didn’t bring. Okay. Well, now that begs the question, [laughs] what the hell did you bring?

Em: Oh. [laughs]

Christine: That’s the only thing, the only thing missing. Did you have a bounce house? Did you have like a f– petting zoo? Like w–

Em: Well, technically–

Christine: Barney? Did Barney make an appearance?

Em: –the dog park is a petting zoo, so.

Christine: Oh! Beautiful. Check.

Em: So, um, I– We had a dreidel. Sorry, you can hear the birthday boy himself chugging.

Christine: Yeah. He’s like, “Uh, let me tell you about my day. It was really extra special. I’m a man now, actually, a birthday man.”

Em: He– Yeah, he’s been acting like it. He’s like, “I’m the boss.” Um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: There you go. Okay, he’s done drinking. Thank god. Um– Oh, I, I we had dreidel for it to be a bark mitzvah, which I don’t even know if– I don’t think they play that at bar mitzvahs, but I was trying to think of–

Christine: Probably, probably not.

Em: –anything Jewish that was dog friendly. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and I also had to make my own poker like game chips ’cause usually you play with chocolate, and can you imagine if I brought chocolate to a dog park? [chuckles] So.

Christine: Oh my word in heaven.

Em: Um, I– We brought “Pin the Tail on the Hankies.”

Christine: Em kills an enti– [laughs] “A Burbank resident killed an entire dog park–“ [laughs]

Em: [laughs] It would really put like a not so great spot on my mayoral resume.

Christine: It would be the first time your Burbank newspaper would have a different headline from– [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Brad Korb finally steps aside to let you know–

Christine: [laughs] Brad. Brad Korb knows things have gotten bleak, okay?

Em: [laughs] “Brad Korb wouldn’t kill your dog. I have!”

Christine: Yeah. [laughs] I mean, really. Like it speaks for itself.

Em: Um, no. It was, it was very fun. But this, this time around it’s our b-days. Uh, it– our– mine is in two days, yours is in three?

Christine: Oh my word. That’s right. I told Leona today, as we record this, that my birthday is in ten days, and she was like freaking out. She was like, “We are so behind preparations.” [chuckles] Um, so she–

Em: [laughs] I like how she’s already stressed ’cause she knows the importance of a theme.

Christine: [chuckles] I know. And I’m like, “Girl, you don’t have to do anything.” And she’s like, “Step aside.” Um–

Em: Do you think she, um, is at an age where Blaise has like told her like, quote, “secret like surprises” about like what we’re doing for Mommy for her birthday?

Christine: You know–

Em: Or does she not know what’s going on?

Christine: No, she do– she does. It’s just a secret we’re all in on. The moment she’s in on the secret, everyone’s in on the secret.

Em: Got it. Okay.

Christine: But it’s still a secret.

Em: I see.

Christine: So you know, like I wouldn’t know – wink. [Christine winks.]

Em: So maybe the secret is like, “We’re gonna have fun,” you know?

Christine: Yeah. Or like, you know, “Mommy wants to do something like, uh–“ Or, or, or the secret would be, “I bought this f– We let’s pick this out for Mommy, but let’s make sure we don’t tell her,” and so then she comes home and says, “Mommy, I’m not gonna tell you about the beautiful flowers we just bought at the store,” you know, like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So it's a secret I will never know. Um–

Em: Right. Right, right, right.

Christine: –it’s just accidentally been already told to me. So she’s really working on kind of semantics, and she’ll get there–

Em: Uh-huh.

Christine: –with me as her mother–

Em: Are, are–

Christine: –so we’ll get there. [chuckles]

Em: Are you excited about your birthday? Do you know what you’re gonna do yet? Have–

Christine: I do. 'Cause I’m a huge nerd, um, there is a history walk on Monmouth, my– in my main– In my neighborhood, they’re doing a big history– a self-guided tour, and–

Em: Cool.

Christine: –I’m gonna go to the self-guided tour and go into all the old buildings and look for creepy little ghosts and stuff and just wander around and learn about the history of Newport, Kentucky.

Em: That’s awesome.

Christine: And–

Em: I did not know you were a history buff.

Christine: I just– I think I just have had to finally accept that about myself.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Like that I’m just a huge fucking nerd.

Em: Sick, brother. Well, then I, um–

Christine: Thanks, [chuckles] Dad.

Em: [laughs] That’s me trying to be the fun parent after the harsh talk we had. Um–

Christine: “Sick. You like history too?”

Em: Yeah. I was like–

Christine: Not the Civil War kind. Okay?

Em: [chuckles] Well, is there any, um– Okay, last question I’ll ask. But since you’re nerdy about it and it’s your birthday and it’s something you wanna go do, is there a building you’re hoping you’ll learn more about that you think has good history?

Christine: I hadn’t thought of that until this very moment. Absolutely. So– [cracks open can]

Em: Nice.

Christine: –I have two answers. First of all, I’m opening my [in an Italian accent] CIAO! bella, the blood orange.

[Christine holds up a white can with pink and orange stripes of Sanpellegrino’s CIAO! blood orange sparkling water.]

Em: [gasps] A blood orange. I love–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –a, a B.O.

Christine: Oh, it’s my fa– I love a B.O.–

Em: I love B.O.

Christine: –and it’s my favorite. Blaise has been getting it– [chuckles] Blaise has been getting at the store, and I– The day he bought them, I y– I turn– I’m kind of like Leona. I know it’s shocking. I turned to him, and I said, “Buy more!” And he said– [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –“I just bought like four,” and I was like, “Well, buy more.” Um–

Em: Well, you know what? He’s– I’m sure he’s used to it between you and Leona, just everyone always wants more of whatever he’s doing.

Christine: It was actually shocking how little he reacted.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um, yeah, it was kind of– I had to look inward. Um, yeah, I’m hoping to go into that building that you and I learned about on that ghost tour–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –that creepy auto printing building, which every time I drive past I’m like expecting to see something in the windows up there. It’s where like they said that ball bounced around, and they found like–

Em: They made it sound horrible.

Christine: Oh, it was so creepy. And that was when that Batman– a full– fully–

Em: Yes, I remember when Batman walked by.

Christine: –fully-evolved Batman [chuckles] walked past.

Em: It wasn’t like a Batman. It was like–

Christine: No, no, it was like the Batman. [laughs]

Em: –the most biblically accurate Batman I’ve ever seen in my life.

Christine: It was. He was a biblically accurate Batman, and he walked right past us as we were learning about this fucking building. Um, that and the place where I went to prom, which was, um– It’s called the Syndicate, and it’s in– It’s called Gangster– It’s a Gangsters Dueling Piano Bar is what it’s called. Don’t–

Em: Incredible.

Christine: I mean, you can quote me on that. I don’t think they have internet. Um, but essentially this building, uh, is just this creepy old building where a bunch of like mobsters back in the day died, and it’s very haunted. But I had my prom there.

Em: That’s very cool.

Christine: So you know–

Em: Did–

Christine: –maybe I’ll get to go inside.

Em: Did you have an after-prom?

Christine: Um, I don’t know ’cause I wasn’t really cool enough for that.

Em: Got it.

Christine: So instead, my date, when I went to his prom, his high school had an after-prom, and I was like, “This is the coolest thing that’s ever happened to me.” 'Cause I didn’t drink in high school.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So like I wasn’t– I was totally straight edge. [Christine makes an X on her forehead with her index fingers.] Um–

Em: [chuckles] Rock and roll, man.

Christine: –and really, really proud and insecure about it. And so then I went to [laughs] this after-party–

Em: The duality is crazy. “Proud and insecure.” [chuckles]

Christine: Listen, I’m aw– I contain multitudes. What can I say?

Em: Cool.

Christine: And– Sick, brother.

Em: [Em makes the “I love you” sign in ASL.] Wait. [chuckles] [Em lowers their thumb to make the rock and roll sign with their index and pinky fingers sticking up.] I love you. Rock and roll.

Christine: [laughs, makes the “I love you” sign in ASL back] Sick, brother. Rock and roll, brother. Um, they had Skyline Chili there, and it was in this huge gymnasium. I mean, it was this huge high school called Oak Hills that I had never even like heard of, and then they were like, “Oh, there’s like 3,000 kids that go to this school.” And I was like, “What?” Um–

Em: Crazy.

Christine: And so I went to the after-prom there, and I was like, “Oh my god, this is awesome.” They had like–

Em: What, what was it at?

Christine: –snowcones and– It was just this huge gymnasium, and they had like all this shit, like carnival games and–

Em: We had– That was what we had too.

Christine: –like it was all night long. I was like, “That’s awesome,” because they didn’t want people to drink. Um–

Em: Yeah. Ours was at like a trampoline house or something.

Christine: Yeah. It was at like a fun park or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Which I, I feel like, in hindsight as an adult, I’d be like, “Of course, let’s put all of the people– all the kids with way too much fucking energy. Let’s like–“

Christine: Totally.

Em: It was– It’s just the adult version of like, “Let’s burn out the babies.”

Christine: Well, and they’re all like hormonal, and they’re all like eyeing each other. It’s like danger zone, danger zone. Let’s not bring beer into the mix, you know? I mean, this is gonna end badly. I get it.

Em: Agreed. Agreed.

Christine: Um, what are you doing for your birthday? Are you going to [chuckles] an after-prom?

Em: [chuckles] Um, I, I’m not going to an after-prom.

Christine: I’m going to the building–

Em: That would be very illegal, I think. [laughs]

Christine: I’m lear– [laughs] And also like so troubling. Um–

Em: I think Chris Hansen would be at that after-prom. You know what I’m saying?

Christine: Oh my god. Finally, you’d get his autograph. Um–

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It’ll be on like the judge’s warrant, yeah, to, to come collect me.

Christine: I would– “Can I just take a picture of that for my– posterity?”

Em: Can you imagine if I had a judge’s warrant of Chris Hansen and I went, “Oh my god, seriously, I have his autograph.”

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: And it’s like, “No, he’s signing you over to prison actually.”

Christine: Ye– So like, “Yes, and.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Both– Two things can, two things can be true, first of all, is what you need to know. And you also contain multitudes, and I want you to remember that.

Em: Thank you. Thank you. That’s what I’m gonna– That’s– That’ll be my defense. Be like, “Your honor, you don’t get it. I contain multitudes.” [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I’ll be your attorney. Don’t worry, things will go very well. Um, I’m sure nothing bad will happen.

Em: No. So no after-prom for me. Um–

Christine: No after-prom. 'Cause I’m going to the building where I went to prom, and I’m gonna learn the history about it, which is a super cool thing to do on your birthday. Not.

Em: I would like to go back to where I went to prom. I went to, um, a, a bougie school, and I– My prom was on a cruise. I know.

Christine: Oh, like, like a river cruise.

Em: Yes, yes.

Christine: We had a river cruise dance too.

Em: It was very fun, but I–

Christine: I also went to a bougie school, but we didn’t get to do the fun trampoline thing. I don’t know why.

Em: It was, um–

Christine: It’s not fair.

Em: –me and one other school– not me and another– Our– My– [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: My school– Me versus a whole school.

Christine: What if you were homeschooled?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: What if you were homeschooled and this is your way of saying like–

Em: And I just like jumped onto their prom, and I went, “Me and this other school.”

Christine: “Linda was my t– my bougie teacher, and we had a prom on a cruise ’cause she had a work event.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Um–

Christine: “Me and another school,” which was your cousin. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Oh man. Um–

Christine: Can you guys tell it’s Gemini season?

Em: I know.

Christine: 'Cause it’s fucking riling me up, dude. I’m like unstoppable. It’s so annoying.

Em: Um, my– Okay, so my birthday– Al– Well, Allison, poor Allison, because now that Hank’s in the picture, she has two Geminis to deal with.

Christine: I know. It’s really delightful, I’m sure.

Em: She’s sweating bullets, I bet.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, I, I don’t know what she has planned for my birthday. Um, next year is, uh, 35 for me, and I’m gonna make that a milestone birthday.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And so I told her this, this time around, she– we can play it cool. We could be chill, but next year, I wanna go do something crazy. Um, I don’t know what we’re– what, what her plan is. She, she said that she’s taking me on a, on a trip at some point. I think it’s next weekend we’re going on a, on a little getaway, but I don’t know where.

Christine: Bring your pillow.

Em: I– [chuckles] Literally, I know. I was like–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –“So far, I’m nervous.” Um–

Christine: [chuckles] A good start.

Em: I was like, “Tell me there will be a hotel this time.” Um, and she won’t tell me where we’re going. So I am a little nervous about that, but we’ll, we’ll figure it out.

Christine: Well, I’m getting nervous, I’m getting nervous too, because I did wanna add one thing, and I feel like we’re gonna make the listeners very nervous if we don’t mention this, which is that we are also–

Em: Oh!

Christine: –taking one of our holiday weeks next week. We have–

Em: Thank you.

Christine: –never really had holiday weeks. This is the first year we’ve had them and– built into our schedule. Um, I think most podcasts do have them, and we’re just the weirdos who’ve never had one. So we were like, “Why not birthday week?” Um, and since you’re going on a trip anyway, maybe it’ll be a good coinciding, but I don’t want people to be like, “Did Em die?”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And then there’s no– You know what I mean? Like–

Em: That’s excellent. Where my last words–

Christine: Blank feed.

Em: –were like, “I’m a little nervous,” and then all of a sudden–

Christine: Yeah, exactly.

Em: –we’re not recording. Yeah.

Christine: And then everyone digs back and is like, “Oh my god.” So before that happens, um–

Em: Thank you.

Christine: –just FYI, there’s not an episode coming out next week, but it’s not– hopefully not ’cause Em’s dead. Um–

Em: [chuckles] Well. You know, both things can be true and contain multitudes, so.

Christine: And contain multitudes. [laughs]

Em: No, we– I– Thank you for reminding everybody, but yeah. So on– [sighs] God, you know what week it is? The week of six, seven.

Christine: Oh, fuck me. Well, no wonder we’re taking time off.

Em: Yeah, we didn’t even wanna be around for that, so.

Christine: I’m certainly too old for that.

Em: We will not be here, but we will have another episode out on the 14th, the following week.

Christine: Yeah. That’s right.

Em: Um, but no, I don’t know what I’m doing. My only request has been that we go to, um, a Brazilian steakhouse where like the meat just keeps coming.

Christine: Right. Like, bring it on.

Em: That’s my only request. Um–

Christine: Good for you. Good for you.

Em: Yeah, that’s, that’s it. I– And then next year– I mean, I already told you I want it to be a big one, but next year hopefully if I’ve finished all my states, um, it will– my birthday will be in Alaska. That’s my plan is that–

Christine: Oh, now, that would be cool.

Em: –I’ll finish it out– And I’ve been warning– I’ve been telling everybody. I’m like, “If you are thinking about ever going to Alaska and you like just don’t have a reason and you just need to like pull the trigger–“

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “–just know that somebody you know will be in Alaska in June if you need like a home base–“

Christine: OMG.

Em: “–or if you wanna share a hotel or something–“

Christine: Be careful what you say ’cause it does sound like you’re saying “in Juneau” and so I– Yeah, n–

Em: Oh, sorry. In June. [chuckles]

Christine: It’s– It doesn’t really. I think my brain just is mental. But, um–

Em: I think you just did something though because now I have to spend June in Juneau.

Christine: It’s supposed to be– I mean–

Em: Come on.

Christine: –you can’t not.

Em: But it’s a– so far a weird assortment of people have said that they’re, they’re thinking about coming because–

Christine: Oh, tell me.

Em: Like one person from the dog park, Allison’s sister only. Like it’s like r– [chuckles]

Christine: She's like, “I’m leaving the child behind and the family.” Yes, love that.

Em: Like I think they would be like a family trip, but Allison told me–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –like she doesn’t wanna go to Alaska.

Christine: Oh, you’re saying her sister only, not Allison.

Em: Correct.

Christine: What? She n– She would love Alaska, I feel like. Not that I’ve ever fucking been there.

Em: Well, she’s, she’s been before, and she said it was her favorite place she’s ever visited, and so she wants to go back. And I was like, “Oh, well, I’ll be there,” and she was like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” I don’t know if it’ll actually happen, but–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –but everybody i– everybody that’s been considering it at all, even for a second, I’m like, “This is gonna be a weird group of people,” so.

Christine: It’s gonna be fun.

Em: Yeah. Um, anyway, so if for some reason you wanna catch me in Alaska, your best chance is in June 2027.

Christine: June in Juneau. Okay, got it.

Em: June in Juneau. Exactly. That’s the theme now.

Christine: Love it.

Em: Excellent. I finally have a theme. I was worried.

Christine: I mean, it’s pretty good, I would say.

Em: [sighs] So that’s my b-day. I, I– That’s– I– You know what’s so weird is because I just was doing Hank’s thing, and I don’t, I don’t know what’s going on. But this year it didn’t even occur to me until like two days ago that it’s my birthday. So I’m– I feel ill-prepared to even like celebrate myself.

Christine: Yeah, that’s what happens when you have a child. Suddenly, you’re like, “Oh, wait. I’ve–”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “–misplaced my own self n– self concern.” [chuckles]

Em: W-worst thing I did was get a dog who, um, I plan on giving birthday parties to and it’s the week before my birthday ’cause now I’m like–

Christine: Are you sure? 'Cause I feel like it’s almost like you can kind of like get people– You’re like, “See? I throw a good party”–

Em: In–

Christine: –and then you can like amp it up and be like–

Em: Now, you’re thinking. Okay.

Christine: And now, now you wanna come ’cause you’re gonna have FOMO if you don’t show up.

Em: I’m like, “If I did this for a dog, imagine what I’m doing for myself.”

Christine: Imagine. And think about, and think about how much the pup cups are weighing on you that you forgot these–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –damn, damn pup cups.

Em: I mean, they are.

Christine: It’s your time–

Em: I was like, “Mine will have actual alcohol if you wanna come,” so.

Christine: I will– Not for the dogs. Please don’t do this again, Em, with the chocolate and the alcohol.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Be so careful with these dogs. [chuckles] Oh, your birthday ones you mean.

Em: My birthday ones, yeah.

Christine: Got it.

Em: Um, okay. Well, I– That, that– Great. Great.

Christine: Good job. [claps]

Em: Um, you didn’t ask, but I’m drinking, uh, Coffee Bean today, [holds up a plastic to-go cup with dark pink iced tea in it], which it’s tea but from a place that starts with coffee, so.

Christine: I really, really, really, really, really was confused. I thought you were drinking coffee–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and I was like, “I’m actually leaving.” [chuckles]

Em: It’s like–

Christine: “I’m out.” [chuckles]

Em: –getting coffee from a tea house, but it’s tea from a coffee house.

Christine: Gotcha.

Em: Whatever. Um–

Christine: Whatever.

Em: But she’s really, she’s really getting me going today. I took a sip, and I went, “Wow, that’s delicious.”

Christine: You also poured some down your leg m–

Em: And my leg said, “Yummy.”

Christine: –might we not– lest, lest we forget. You said that was gonna be a good sip straight down the leg. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] It was gonna be a good sip, and I watched her fall all the way down.

Christine: It was so uncomfortable to watch and listen to. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Anyway, so that’s– I guess that’s why I drink. I was, I was actually struggling on like why I drink this week, but I guess it’s our birthday week. Fuck yeah.

Christine: [laughs] Fuckin’ happy birthday. Next year, you’ll be in Alaska. I love this.

Em: I’m–

Christine: Love this energy.

Em: –already excited and scared for my wallet ’cause that’s gonna–

Christine: Fuck yeah.

Em: –be an expensive b-day. Um, oh, one last thing we have to announce is that, uh, as–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –our network, ParaPods– Ever heard of it?

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em:, um, we have started something that–

Christine: It's so fun.

Em: We did not come up with this by– This was a– an Eva, Megan, Jack concoction of sorts. Was this a Jack concoction, I think? I think he led the charge.

Christine:, uh, so the name was a Megan creation.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Uh, but the invention was just kind of like it just sort of came down from the heavens.

Em: Yeah. So we’ve been doing a lot of, um, trying to collaborate with, uh, the podcasts on our network and get their name out there. We’ve also been on their shows, and it’s been very, very fun to get to like chat with all these people.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, but we wanna be able to put those in their own little space and, and have what we’re calling “a club” of sorts. But Christine, I want you to say the, say the name.

Christine: [gasps] All right. We’re introducing, by ParaPods, the brand new ParaSocial Club.

Em: Ah!

Christine: Okay. It’s so good. And like, we don’t mean “parasocial” in like, “oh, it’s gotten way out of hand,” parasocial. We mean parasocial like, “I wanna be friends with that podcaster, so let’s have them on. We’re gonna do a little breakout chat.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Okay, we’re gonna do breakout chats between all the different podcasts, and you know there might be like true crime talk on between certain podcasters, like if Taylar and I wanna chat true crime or if Em wants to chat ghosts with somebody or movies with like That’s Pretty Dark or whatever.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: It’s just so fun to have like a new space where we can explore other topics and things and not like bog the feeds down themselves, you know.

Em: Right, while also promoting the shows that we’re super proud of that we’re–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –happy to have joined us. But, but also I mean, you know we love a play on words and “parasocial,” the ParaPods ParaSocial Club.

Christine: ParaSocial Club?

Em: Are you kidding me?

Christine: We’re Geminis. Like it all–

Em: [groans]

Christine: –just really works. I mean, “presented by ParaPods, ParaSocial Club.”

Em: [groans]

Christine: It’s, it’s just really fun. And so Em and I recorded some fun little intro like word vomiting. [laughs]

Em: When you hear it, Jack will have masterfully edited it to sound great.

Christine: Yeah. [laughs]

Em: But I promise, um, the rough cuts are us giggling through the whole thing ’cause it was weird.

Christine: I literally was reading my own acting notes. I was like, “Get creative about this.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Oh, wait. That’s not a line.” So maybe it’s in there, maybe it’s not.

Em: Well, our first official big launch of the ParaSocial Club will be on YouTube. It’ll be on Thursday, June 11, um, so go check it out and–

Christine: Yes, find us on Youtube.

Em: –watch us chat and, and discover a new show that maybe you don’t know of yet that, that could be a new favorite to binge. You don’t know.

Christine: Or just watch us chat. Like sometimes– I mean, I’m for sure gonna try and request a chat about, um, Brave Little Toaster with That’s Pretty Dark ’cause I need– I have a lot to get off my chest. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Fair enough. That’s a– I would listen to that.

Christine: And, uh, you know, like some true crime I’ve been dying to discuss with Taylar who’s also very like, you know, um, up, up on the news when it comes to true crime. She and I text and voice memo about true crime, but it would be cool to actually put that out there as content and stuff like that, so.

Em: I think the first episode the two of you do should just be a constant feed of all of your audio chats for the public to hear. [chuckles]

Christine: Oh, we should just play them. Yeah, that’s actually a great idea. [laughs]

Em: Just play your phone, and then you don’t have to say anything. You just sit there and hold your phone.

Christine: But then it’ll be like, “Oops, spilled tea down my leg,” like or whatever the hell it w– [laughs]

Em: “That was gonna be a good sip.”

Christine: That was gonna be a good sip straight down the leg.

Em: Oy-ai-ai. Well, um–

Christine: Thank you for remembering that. We’re very excited about– Eva was like, “Are you sure about ParaSocial Club?” And we were like, “Yep, fuck it.” Uh, I think it’s a fun name. I love it. Uh, I know it’s kind of like– Parasocial has a bad rep. But generally, “parasocial” is just a word. It doesn’t– It’s not inherently negative. Like I have parasocial relationships with all the podcasts I listen to ’cause I’m like, “Oh–” I mean, hopefully they’re not out of hand, but, you know, um–

Em: The best part about having a podcast network is getting to work with all the people you do have some sort of–

Christine: Yeah, exactly.

Em: –like, quote, “healthy parasocial relationship with” anyway.

Christine: We can get to know each other outside of that. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, yeah, welcome to the ParaSocial Club. It’ll be starting soon on YouTube, and, um, we’ll link it in the show notes.

Em: Well, I ask I think every year, so I’m just gonna end on this before we get into the story, but–

Christine: Mm-hmm?

Em: –for your b-day–

Christine: Mm-hmm?

Em: –is there a cake flavor you’re hoping for or a dessert flavor?

Christine: Oh.

Em: Because, here’s the thing–

Christine: Mm?

Em: –this is a few days in advance. Blaise still has a chance to get you exactly what you want if he hears this come out.

Christine: Oh, shit. You're so right. I gotta be so careful, so careful.

Em: Allison, if chocolate-covered strawberries aren’t there, I’ll simply lose my mind.

Christine: Oh, we don’t want that. We don’t want that.

Em: We don’t want that.

Christine: Um, I’m thinking– Oh my gosh. I’m feeling like a little carrot cake this year, going back to my roots.

Em: I think you said that last year too.

Christine: I don’t think I got it last year.

Em: Interesting. [in a sing-song voice] Blaise. [chuckles]

Christine: And now I think Blaise is gonna be like, “Yeah, you did, dumb bitch.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: He’s gonna be like, “I bought you six carrot cakes, you fucking u–“ No. Um, he’s– he will get me exactly what I want. He’s a lovely, lovely man in that way.

Em: Well, Blaise is nice enough. He’ll probably– If he– If you even think you didn’t get it last year, he’ll probably just make you two this time.

Christine: He’ll just be like– He’ll actually say, “You’re right,” even if I wasn’t right and then be like, “Here are three more.”

Em: It’s–

Christine: And I’ll be like, “You’re too good to me.”

Em: It’s my favorite when they just say, “You’re right.” It’s my favorite.

Christine: I-I-It’s my least favorite. It makes me so mad.

Em: Oh, really?

Christine: Oh, yeah. I’m like, “Fight me.” [chuckles]

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: I’m like, “Fucking fight me.”

Em: Wow. I’m like I just desperately–

Christine: I’m like, “I’m wrong.”

Em: –I just desperately wanna be seen. And as soon as Allison goes, “You’re right,” I go, “ [gasps] Fucking pause Earth. What–“

Christine: Okay–

Em: “–are you talking about? I need to hear it again.”

Christine: –but see, I love that you said this ’cause that’s all I want too is that I want to be seen. But then when someone says, “You’re right,” I’m like, “You’re just placating me and that’s not seeing me. That’s just placation.”

Em: But what if they actually think you’re right?

Christine: Well, I don’t believe you.

Em: Okay. [laughs]

Christine: “Prove it.”

Em: [laughs] Like “Actually, show me–“

Christine: “Work–“

Em: “–documentation of when your brain synapses decided this.” Yeah.

Christine: “Work harder.” Exactly.

Em: Got it. Okay.

Christine: Write it down. Put it on a pin board. I don’t care. Show me the evidence.

Em: Fair eno–

Christine: Show me the work. Show me your work.

Em: I’m just–

Christine: Don’t use a calculator. You’re using a calculator.

Em: [laughs] It’s like under my lap right now. I’m like I’m ju– under the desk.

Christine: You can’t Texas Instruments my love.

Em: Oh! Now, that is Fallout Boy.

Christine: [laughs] That is– Holy shit. You know what’s so crazy?

Em: Tell me.

Christine: I was just thinking– I signed up for a poetry class, and I was like, “What if I took a songwriting class?”

Em: I mean, so here’s the situation.

Christine: What if I taught a songwriting class?

Em: I need you to lock the fuck in right now, Christine.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: TikTok silly town is– has departed. We’ve departed silly town.

Christine: Jokes out of the room.

Em: I need you to know that you would be shockingly good and you would– what would piss me the right the fuck off–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Here’s what would piss me off–

Christine: Use what would T.O.

Em: It would, it would freaking T my O, T me O–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –is that you would– you’re one of those people where I think the less you tried, the better it would– like you– It would just naturally come. Like if you’re trying–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –just stop because you just say shit like, “Oh, you can’t Texas Instrument my soul,” or some shit–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and all of a sudden, that’s incredible. Like don’t even try. Like you should be, you should do poetry where one night you try and one where you don’t.

Christine: The graphing calculator, the graphing calculator of my– to my heart. Yeah, I, I mean, I get it. Okay. But like, you know what? Also like what does it me–

Em: It would be so good.

Christine: But I’m placat– You see what I mean? I need like real depth, not Texas Instruments level depth.

Em: Wait, I’m placating you? Are you be–

Christine: No, I’m placating myself.

Em: Oh–

Christine: I’m having a mental breakdown. [laughs]

Em: –my god. Oh my god. I hope your therapist is on speed dial ’cause like I–

Christine: Girl–

Em: –I’m telling you there’s– that’s not placating. You’re just like, like lucky that like you just have a skill–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and you’re like, “No, no, no. I simply must be placating myself.” [laughs]

Christine: Earlier I WebMD-ed some of my symptoms–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and it said, [laughs] and it said “kundalini awakening.”

Em: Kunda-what? Kunda-what? [laughs]

Christine: I started crying laughing.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: It was like, “Maybe you’re having a kundalini awakening,” and I was like, “Thanks, Quora.” [laughs]

Em: Did you gather information on what that means at all?

Christine: Absolutely. And I’m absolutely having one.

Em: Okay. Ex– Well, you know what? It sounds like Quora was on, on spot.

Christine: [sighs] I know. WebMD helped me zero. It was like, “You’re probably having an aneurysm,” and I was like, “That can’t be right.”

Em: Sometimes–

Christine: But kundalini awakening feels real.

Em: Sometimes Quora or even, throwback, ChaCha would have been able to diagnose us immediately.

Christine: Ch– Do you have any idea how many times I’m like, “You know, fuck ChatGPT. I want ChaCha to tell me what’s going on.”

Em: [chuckles] “ChaCha, help me.”

Christine: Do you wanna know the scariest thing that ever happened on ChaCha? This is a real story.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Okay, here’s, here’s two real stories. The first one isn’t scary. The second one is. I got custom Nikes in high school. I don’t know why. Nobody knows why. It was a waste of my money. I– On the back, I didn’t know what to write, and I came up with all these, you know – I was trying too hard, as you suggested with the songwriting – trying way too hard. So I asked ChaCha, “What should I write?” It said, “Jumbo shrimp.” And I went, “In, done.” Okay. Thank you, ChaCha.

Em: And you know, that was a person who got paid a quarter to just pick something.

Christine: 100%. But they just like d– they nailed it. And I was like, “Great, okay.”

Em: Can you imagine if the person who was your ChaCha answerer that day is listening to this and found out just now that they were– they “jumbo-shrimped” your shoes?

Christine: The person I wanna find is this person actually if we’re gonna find somebody from the ChaCha, um–

Em: Now, that would be scary.

Christine: –platform user– server, server side. One day, I asked ChaCha something very inane. Like I said, I don’t know, like, uh, “How many–“ I– I’ll find the– There’s a screenshot or whatever the early version of a screenshot was back then. I asked–

Em: You taking a picture with your camera of the computer screen? [chuckles]

Christine: It was a picture of the phone– 100%, yeah. It was a picture of my flip phone probably. But I said something like, “How many degrees Celsius is something in Fahrenheit?” Some conversion. It responded, “Stigmata is the–” and it gave the definition, “with blood pouring out of the– where Christ was nailed to the cross.” And I was like, “Hey, this–“

Em: That's the shit I would pull for sure.

Christine: That is the person where I’m like, “Who are you and why would you do such a thing?”

Em: If you’re getting paid a quarter to come up with answers for people, you know, someone, and obviously we do ’cause you just mentioned them, someone is having the time of their life just giving you the wrong answer, and now you have to text another ChaCha person.

Christine: You gotta be– I gotta be honest. You f– You fucked with me big time, whoever you are, so.

Em: Honestly, actually in the comments, if you worked for ChaCha or know someone who worked for ChaCha, I would kill to know what responses–

Christine: So I applied to ChaCha–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –and I got to like the final round, and I, I somehow didn’t make it. Like I didn’t make the cut, but I got through the first couple rounds. And it was very exciting–

Em: Of course.

Christine: –and then the service like shut down. [laughs] But– So that might be what happened. But I was like really in it. I was like, “I’m gonna be the newest– I’m gonna be the newest ChaCha supervisor.”

Em: That’s incredible. [laughs] How did we get here?

Christine: Where am I?

Em: What– I truly don’t know the, the path we took.

Christine: I’m gonna call my mom to pick me up.

Em: Okay. Oh! No. I remember. Your songwriting or poetry writing or something.

Christine: Oh, right.

Em: Literally–

Christine: I’m gonna be– I’m g– Yeah.

Em: I, I need you to know that like truly you have a gift and you need to just close your eyes and not think and just essentially automatic write shit like–

Christine: [chuckles] Oh, maybe I’m–

Em: –this calculator shit and–

Christine: [gasps] Maybe I’m channeling somebody.

Em: Maybe. Maybe it’s Pete Wentz himself. I don’t know. That’d be–

Christine: I’m just like s– I’m like tapping all his creative reserves.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Fallout Boy never releases an album again.

Em: I, uh– Oh. Oh my god. I know w– this is the longest intro in the world, but it’s our birthday. Shut the fuck up. Um–

Christine: Yeah. What the fuck? [laughs]

Em: Final question because everyone needs to know because last time you were going to update us. How the hell did your little “hi-yah!” go? Your– [holds hands up in a defensive martial arts stance]

Christine: Oh, I, I gotta be honest. I am a walking bruise. Remember?

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I’m now– I’m– Now I’m a literal. Remember when I said I feel like a walking bruise? Well, now I’m a literal. So fuck me, I guess. 'Cause now I’m a walking bruise. I literally– From rolling around on the floor, [holds up her arms and elbows], um, I’m covered in bruises.

Em: But did you have fun? My, my prediction was you’d have fun.

Christine: It’s so fun. It’s so fucking–

Em: See, I fucking told you. Remember, you’re like, “Oh, I’m nervous,” and I went, “You’re literally gonna be good at it. Shut up.”

Christine: I’ve literally gone like six times now.

Em: [gasps] See?

Christine: I know. It’s, it’s like, it’s like unwell. And the episode came out yesterday where we brought it up. So I’m super nervous ’cause tomorrow is the women’s class, and I’m like, “Oh my god, are people gonna come to the women’s class after I mentioned it?” I don’t know.

Em: I mean, at least now you kind of have like six classes ahead of them to defend yourself.

Christine: I literally think– [laughs] “To defend myself.” I was like, “At least I’ll be prepared to show them the ropes.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And you’re like, “At least you’ll be prepared to defend yourself” like they’re coming to attack m–

Em: At least you know how to throat punch now, right, or–

Christine: What? You think they’re gonna attack me? Our listeners are like, “All right, finally. I know where she’ll be.”

Em: [chuckles] It’s like, “Don’t mess with her. She’s a brand new white belt, everybody. Okay?”

Christine: She has not a belt in sight. Don’t worry. She has not even a belt. She’s learned–

Em: So wait, you still, you still have to earn a white belt?

Christine: What– She’s learned how–

Em: I thought you just get handed a white belt when you start.

Christine: I don’t think you get that. I mean, I certainly did not.

Em: Oh.

Christine: So it– Maybe one does, but I– but Christine does not. That’s entirely possible.

Em: Like, you’re too powerful with this.

Christine: Sure. Yeah. I like your per-perspective. Um, there’s a lot of rolling around on the floor. So I’m learning about how to like actually do things like a f– a roll, like roll sideways.

Em: Cool.

Christine: So I’m v– I mean, this is not– I’m not gonna– Please don’t come and punch me anybody ’cause I’m–

Em: 'Cause she’ll get you.

Christine: You’re gonna punch me.

Em: She’s almost a white belt. [laughs]

Christine: I’m so– [laughs]

Em: She’ll get you. Look out. [chuckles]

Christine: Tickle ti–

Em: Well, s– Okay, so what’s your favorite–

Christine: Oh, I tried, I tried to tickle Blaise. He was like, “Here, this is how you do it,” and I was like, then I would go, “tickle tickle,” and it didn’t work. And I was like, “What do you mean?” And he’s like, “You can’t just tickle me off of– Like that’s not how–“ And I was like, “I really thought that was gonna be like my secret weapon.”

Em: I want you to know that I wanted you to finish your sentence, but what, what, what I just held in with all my might was bursting out laughing at you saying “tickle tickle.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I think that was– That would have– I’m telling you, if I ever attack somebody and they tickled me, I’d be like, “You fucking win. Get away from me.” [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] He was like, “And then you ch– you put them in a triangle to choke them,” and I was like, “Tickle tickle.”

Em: And like– [laughs]

Christine: And it didn’t work. And I’m really– [chuckles]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I thought like, “Surely this will make him fr–“

Em: I would pee my pants laughing.

Christine: [laughs] I was like, “Surely he’ll let go.” Um, no.

Em: I don’t know how you would save the day through comedy except I do. And it’s because you would defend–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –the entire room by going “tickle tickle,” and the guy–

Christine: And then I w– [laughs]

Em: –would go, “Oh my god, I have to get out of here.” [laughs]

Christine: And then I would get choked out and just lay unconscious on the floor, and it would be really sad. Yeah.

Em: I– What a, what a s– what a–

Christine: I mean, listen–

Em: –what a path we’ve taken.

Christine: Anyway, let’s get back to you and your thing. It’s more im– more important.

Em: [sighs] Not really at th–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I just wanna hear all of your tactics you’ve learned so far with “tickle tickle.”

Christine: I feel like–

Em: So what–

Christine: I feel like–

Em: It has to work at least once.

Christine: A-at least o– on someone who isn’t expecting it.

Em: It’s like– I’ve heard a few people in my day, especially in high school, I had some friends who like to fight, and they– One of them always said that his secret tactic was that if someone ever tried to like fight him, he would just get naked immediately.

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like–

Em: Just f– Just freak them out.

Christine: Yeah. Totally. You’re just like, you’re just like fucking up their whole brain. You’re like–

Em: Yeah, it’s just like catching them off-guard when they least expect it. I mean, “tickle tickle” is, is the equivalent to me. Imagine if you’re naked and you say “tickle tickle,” that would really freak me– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I just show–

Em: And then Chris Hansen comes out with a judicial warrant.

Christine: [laughs] “I got his autograph! Finally!”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Em, what are you doing in this prison cell?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “How did you get in here? We’re both in prison? But the coolest thing happened. You’ll never guess whose autograph I got today.”

Em: I trul– I– [sighs]

Christine: “And also, why are you naked?” “Uh–“ [laughs]

Em: [laughs] [sighs] We have to tell a story–

Christine: “But I got a white belt!”

Em: –Christine. [laughs]

Christine: “I got a white belt.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] We have to tell a story at some point. Okay.

Christine: I don’t wanna. [laughs]

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Em’s Story – Estefanía Gutiérrez Lázaro aka The Vallecas Case

Em: Here is– Well, I found one for you ’cause I was trying to find a– Because it’s your birthday, I was like, “I gotta do a, a–“

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “–something that involves Christine.” I know. Ugh.

Christine: Ugh.

Em: Because I was like, “I’ve already typed in like–“ I think one year I was like, “cases with– where the character’s name is Christine,” and then I like–

Christine: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

Em: I’ve done–

Christine: We've covered all the easy bases. [chuckles]

Em: I’ve done Kentucky. I’ve done Ohio. I like– I– So I wrote a f–

Christine: We made up stories about each–

Em: I wrote up a fucking character.

Christine: Yeah, exactly.

Em: And so this year, I was like, “I don’t know. 1991.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: The year of the Christine.

Christine: It’s a good year. It’s a good year.

Em: And this is apparently one of the most famous paranormal cases in Spain. I did not–

Christine: Ooh!

Em: I’ve never heard of it before, but it happened in 1991. And this–

Christine: It's next to France.

Em: Uh–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Huh? [chuckles]

Christine: You said I’ve never heard about it before. I said it’s next to France.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: You’re so stupid. Do you know that? [laughs]

Christine: Yes.

Em: Okay. The, uh– [chuckles] God, fuck. That was a real “tickle tickle” to my–

Christine: I’m so sorry.

Em: –attention.

Christine: I did take my medica– I did take my medication today. I did. I promise.

Em: Really threw me off there. I’m–

Christine: Sorry.

Em: Here we go.

Christine: I’m sorry.

Em: [chuckles] Spain, which is next to France if anyone needed to know that. Um, in 1999, there was a case in Madrid, and it was called the – I think I’m saying it right – The Val– Fuck, I already fucked up again. Va-Vallecas [pronounced “va-leh-cus”], Vallecas. I would think Vallecas [pronounced “vi-yeh-cus”] because it’s two L’s, but the guy who I just saw on YouTube said Vallecas [pronounced “va-leh-cus”]. Um, but V-A-L-L-E-C-A-S Case–

Christine: Okay, okay.

Em: –if you would like to look into it. And the reason it’s called that is because that’s the city in Madrid that this happened in. And so we– The main character today, her name is Estefanía.

Christine: Beautiful.

Em: And again, this is one of the most famous paranormal cases or parapsychological cases that’s ever happened out there. Um, so if you know it, and– Let me know if I do it justice. There– Every source seemed to have like kind of a different chronology of how things went. And I was like, “Oh–“

Christine: Mm.

Em: “–well, I’ll go watch like a YouTube about this,” but every single one is in Spanish. So I was like, “Well, fuck me.” So, um–

Christine: You, you got–

Em: –we tried.

Christine: –you stopped at, you stopped at Va-Vallecas.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles] You’re like, “That’s enough Spanish for me.” [chuckles]

Em: I went, “And that’s enough.” So–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –Estefanía, she’s in high school at the time that this starts in 199– 1991. And Estefanía’s friend, uh, she has a boyfriend. The boyfriend passes away–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –in a motorcycle accident. And so–

Christine: Oh no.

Em: –what Estefanía and her friends decide that they’re gonna do is that they would like to use a Ouija board and try to contact her boyfriend.

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god. This is the most ‘90s story already. Holy shit.

Em: And it starts quick. I mean, the first sentence is, is someone’s dead.

Christine: Li– I mean, literally. I mean, wow. Okay. Oof.

Em: Um, so we are now in the school’s bathroom. That’s where they decided to do the Ouija board session.

Christine: I mean, this is, this literally is 1991 in a nutshell.

Em: This feels like something Sabrina the teenage witch would do. It’s like, “Oh–”

Christine: This is what I wish I had been doing in my life at that time.

Em: “–let’s run to the bathroom.” I, I would never think to do a Ouija board in a space where like people are notoriously gonna be in and out, and they could be like teachers, and–

Christine: I think–

Em: –you’re probably skipping class.

Christine: I mean, that’s exactly where you would do it, isn’t it, though? Like–

Em: I like to imagine like grunge ‘90s–

Christine: –that one bathroom like kind of–

Em: –grunge ‘90s kids with like cigarettes doing it though. That’s fun.

Christine: Totally. Like hiding the cigarettes in the stall. I don’t know what people did. I remember I was straight edge–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –against my will and also for my will. Um, I– Yeah, I think like I’ve heard a few stories on Jim Harold and other places where people say they did like, um– especially in Europe. There– I’ve heard a couple where they hang out in the bathrooms and do like Ouija board. I don’t know. [laughs] It’s like–

Em: Nefarious activities.

Christine: If that's like, uh, just a weird pattern or what. But–

Em: Well, they were all in the bathroom together. I don’t know how many people were there, but I know that her sister, according to one source, was also in there like guarding the door.

Christine: Yeah, you’ve gotta have a do– You’ve gotta have a door guard.

Em: Well, you gotta have a good one. And the sister wasn’t because a teacher walks right in.

Christine: Oh my gosh.

Em: And– Which, I don’t know what her name was, but in my mind, it’s like, [in a whiny teenage voice] “Tiffany! Like what? Like come on.” You know, something–

Christine: “Tiffany, you’re the worst guard ever. You’re never allowed back.”

Em: [chuckles] Well, okay. Also, only one source mentioned this, which I feel like is important, so if it’s true, this is like– this makes the story so much juicier, is that this is a Catholic school and the–

Christine: Of course.

Em: –teacher was a nun who walks in–

Christine: Of course.

Em: –and sees all these kids doing a Ouija board session.

Christine: I mean, as someone who went to a Catholic school, yeah, that is basically how it was. You would be like sneaking very un– non-religious things and a literal nun would be like, “What the fuck?”

Em: Yeah. Yeah. So she walks in. She sees a bunch of children and a Ouija board. She grabs the board and the planchette away from them, which if you’ve ever played Ouija, the, you know, the whole rule is like you have to close out the circle. You have to say goodbye.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: But, um, that didn’t happen because the nun stole the board, and, not only that, but broke the board in front of them.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Like which is– You might as well just like light it on fire in the middle of a session or something.

Christine: You might as well just summon the devil himself.

Em: I don’t know if she broke the board or the planchette. I think the board would certainly be easier to break with your bare hands quickly.

Christine: I– Yeah.

Em: So I’m gonna go with board, but–

Christine: Also more of an effect.

Em: Yeah, crack over the knee.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, and so when she broke it though, all the girls in the circle said that the board, uh, all of a sudden started emitting this thick white smoke. It started pouring–

Christine: Ahh!

Em: –out of the board, and Estefanía breathed a lot of it in.

Christine: [gasps] She breathed in the ghost.

Em: She breathed in some spooky stuff. [chuckles]

Christine: Uh-oh.

Em: Um, after this, this is when Estefanía started experiencing some serious medical issues at home–

Christine: Oh no.

Em: –including a series of extreme seizures where she would be foaming at the mouth– I mean, it would like– It does not seem good. Estefanía’s family tried taking her to doctors, um, i– presumably for an epilepsy diagnosis–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –but doctors could not determine a solid diagnosis. I will say in 2026 a reason for why she probably didn’t get diagnosed is because ep-epilepsy can be really hard to diagnose.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Although I feel like if you’re getting seizures that intensely, like they must have an idea of what’s going on, but maybe not in ’91. But on top of the convulsions, Estefanía also started, uh, seeing dark figures following her that nobody else could see.

Christine: Oh god.

Em: So now she’s also having hallucinations.

Christine: Oh god.

Em: And finally, Estefanía began having some outbursts where she became violent with the family. She would start like biting the, the siblings–

Christine: [sucks in a breath]

Em: –and barking, um, allegedly not remembering any of it after the fact. Um–

Christine: That sounds like rabies.

Em: It does sound a little– [chuckles] Something’s going on, yeah.

Christine: I mean, the foaming at the mouth even.

Em: Yeah. I, I don’t– I’ve, I’ve seen people have seizures but never a foaming at the mouth situation.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: I don’t know if that’s common. I don’t think it is. I don’t know.

Christine: I have no, I have no idea.

Em: I have no idea. Um, altogether, these issues, uh, that she was having only appearing after a seance where a Ouija board was broken and then the other kids claimed that they saw her breathing in this white smoke that came from it–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –it all led to people thinking Estefanía is clearly obviously possessed.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Couldn’t be a mental health situation. Whatever. Also reminder that she apparently went to a Catholic school, and this was during the ‘80s/’90s satanic panic.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So, I mean, it makes sense to me why a thought would be demons.

Christine: Oh, yeah. Well, and I– Look at the– Like the nun like cracked a Ouija board in ha– I mean, it’s the start of a horror movie.

Em: I know. And I mean, I don’t know if any of that is actually true, but it is certainly a, a big part of the story now. But–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –I mean, imagine being a kid saying, “I was in a– I did a Ouija board session, and the nun came in and broke it in half.” You know, the story spiraled into like–

Christine: Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s a great story.

Em: So um, so her symptoms did not go away. In fact, they actually got worse. So not only is she having these intense seizures, she’s hallucinating. She’s now having insomnia. Her voice is changing sometimes. Um, and the dark figures are getting more intense. Eventually, she would tell people–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –that these figures were walking through the family home. They had no face, and they would–

Christine: Oh!

Em: –tell her to come with them.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: Yuck.

Christine: Yuck.

Em: Well, one night, presumably after these, um, figures are kind of luring her over to the other side, Estefanía has a very intense, hostile moment with her sister, the one who I think was at the seance–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –attacks her sister, I guess, knocks her sister out. Um, and the whole time this is happening, Estefanía is again foaming at the mouth, passes out, falls into a coma–

Christine: Oh my gosh.

Em: –is brought to the hospital and within 24 hours passes away.

Christine: Oh my god. What?

Em: Yeah. Um, and she was only 18 or 19 at that point.

Christine: Holy shit.

Em: Which also means they were dealing with these issues for like over a year ’cause now if she’s 19, she’s not in high school anymore. Um–

Christine: Whoa. Oh my god.

Em: So there was no official diagnosis on h– why she passed. They just kind of deemed it a suspicious death because she was physically a healthy 18-year-old kid. And– But, I mean, I also can see like well, someone had a seizure so intense they fell into a fucking coma. That’s a pretty good reason.

Christine: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like something was wro– obviously very wrong.

Em: I’m no doctor but I would throw that in the ringer as an option of what happened here.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and unfortunately, her death would not be the end of all the situations going on at home because the family was now experiencing some very creepy activity that Estefanía had been talking about that she claimed to be able to see.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: So like your gr– First of all, you spent the last year, maybe two years, with a daughter who was–

Christine: Your sick child.

Em: –at least sick. Like if she wasn’t possessed–

Christine: Right.

Em: –she was struggling, period.

Christine: Clearly ill. Yeah.

Em: Um, and then it didn’t seem like– I don’t know what the situation was to, to get medical help, but it sounds like no one was really– The hospitals didn’t seem to be advocating for her to find a diagnosis.

Christine: Or they just couldn’t find one, yeah.

Em: Or they couldn’t find one. Um, so she’s struggling in that way too of like not knowing what her situation is. Now you’re grieving that person–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –who was your baby. Um, and now your house is also haunted.

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god.

Em: Yeah. Big year for them and not in a good way. Um, the family felt something often grabbing them or sitting on them while they were sleeping. They would feel something try to drag them when they were in bed.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: One of the kids woke up in the middle of the night to her wrist being slammed into the wall–

Christine: Eugh!

Em: –as if someone was trying to hold her down forcefully. Um, the family would see their doors slamming open and shut. Appliances would turn on and off by themselves. Objects would move on their own. They would hear knocking, banging noises coming from inside the walls, but they can never locate the actual source. It seemed to move on its own. Um, glasses would break on their own. They heard a man laughing in their rooms.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And they even started hearing Estefanía herself screaming.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: I can’t, I can’t imagine the torment.

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: One time, the mother heard knocking in Estefanía’s old room, and she went in and, quote, “All the belongings in the room had been scattered around.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: So like everything’s just–

Christine: Ew. Ew, ew, ew, ew.

Em: –getting thrown around the room. Other items that would get thrown around include the family dog and one time even one of the other kids–

Christine: No!

Em: –just getting thrown in the house. Um, another time this like impossible gust of wind flew through the front door, like broke the, the door’s lock and flew the door open, and it, quote, “scattered their furniture” everywhere.

Christine: What’s hap–

Em: It’s like a hurricane came fucking through.

Christine: Yeah. Like your own mini tornado.

Em: And a– I think this is one source that put these two pieces together. Um, in that big windstorm or whatever the hell happened, one of the items that flew off the wall was a framed picture of Estefanía–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and when they looked at the picture, the face had been burned away.

Christine: Agh. What?

Em: The frame was fine. The glass was fine. The outer parts of the picture were fine, but her face was missing–

Christine: Yuck!

Em: –just like how she said all those figures were missing faces.

Christine: Yuck, yuck, yuck.

Em: Um, they also, speaking of things that she said she had seen, they’re now seeing apparitions walking through the halls, just like how she said–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –she is seeing dark figures walking around. One sister actually described these figures as, quote, “glued to the floor, dragging itself towards them.” Hm?

Christine: Hey.

Em: Hm?

Christine: Hey, now. That's not super good for me.

Em: Like you– Like you’re scary enough just being there.

Christine: Don’t–

Em: You don’t have to do anything big.

Christine: You don’t need to be so dramatic about it really. Thanks though.

Em: Like you don’t have to show out. Like we are already scared.

Christine: We get it.

Em: The dragging towards us– And we know you can move faster than that. So like you’re just–

Christine: Like–

Em: –this is for show.

Christine: –give me a break.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Eugh.

Em: They also started seeing what looked like an older man walking around in the house.

Christine: Oh, great.

Em: And remember, they heard a man laughing earlier in, in random rooms. And they would also hear an older man, his voice, speaking to nobody.

Christine: What was he saying?

Em: I think they just kind of heard like a voice muttering. I don’t know–

Christine: Eugh.

Em: –if they really heard anything specific. But, um, this had them wondering if the entity here– Maybe Estefanía was there, but they thought another entity might be their grandfather, who allegedly hated the family–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –and, according to one source, cursed them on his deathbed.

Christine: Well, that seems maybe relevant.

Em: If it– if that happened, I would certainly put him in as a suspect.

Christine: Yeah, I would say he’s on the list.

Em: He apparently said something to the family along the lines of, quote, “If I can’t harm you in this life, I’ll do it in the next one.”

Christine: Why even?

Em: First of all, why are you even at that fucking hospital to hear him say that if he’s on his deathbed? Why are you–

Christine: Good point.

Em: If a man– [chuckles] If he’s gonna say that, don’t go. I don’t know.

Christine: That’s what– You know what? That’s gonna be my new jiu-jitsu tactic. I’m gonna say that as I’m getting like– Well, I guess I’ll be getting choked out. Hold on.

Em: In between or after the “tickle tickle”?

Christine: I’ll go, “Tickle tickle. [whispering] If I can’t hurt you in this life, I’ll hurt you in the next.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And then–

[Christine presses her hand to her neck as if being choked, tilting her head to the side and sticking out her tongue.]

Christine: –and then I’m out. And then you know what? They’re fucking haunted, and they n– they’re cursed by their own fear. I’ve instilled the ultimate fear.

Em: So I feel like in, um, like– I don’t know the acronyms, WWE or whatever, like– Where they all like–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: While the boys dress in like what’s obviously costumes and play pretend that they’re fighting?

Christine: Right. The one, the one with the capes and stuff.

Em: Right. Where they’re like, “We’re manly,” and I’m like, “I– F– Okay.” Um, this–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: I feel like your theme– It would be incredible if you had a themed outfit when you’re fighting these–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –your people, but you’re dressed as basically a planchette or you wear like wood grain–

Christine: [laughs] What?

Em: –like Ouija board because then your c– your catchphrase could be like, “I’ll get you in the next life,” you know, ’cause th– you’re gonna die but like as a ghost.

Christine: But I’ll, but I’ll spell it out on a Ouija board. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Your calling card would just be you spelling it for them.

Christine: I’ll just roll– [laughs] Like, “Hang on a second.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’ll be like, “There’s a space here.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] So just an extra pause and then–

Christine: “Space.”

Em: And then at the– Oh, you know what would be really good? So that’s how, that’s how you start them. That’s your intimidation tactic before the fight even begins.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Then the fight happens, and right when they think they’re winning–

Christine: Uh-huh?

Em: –the board should again s– I imagine this on the jumbotron–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –you have the Ouija board spelling, so everyone else can see what’s happening.

Christine: [laughs] Everybody has to stop what they’re doing.

Em: So you’re slowly blacking out, and then on the jumbotron, a Ouija board spells out, “tickle tickle,” and then you come back, and you win. You know?

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It’s so possible. I believe in you.

Christine: What could go wrong? And then they’re like, “Who is this lady in a costume?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like, “She’s not even a white belt. [laughs] Get her out of here.”

Em: [laughs] Well, you can do a costume change at the end and be a ghost and that would be–

Christine: “She’s naked.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] And then you realize you’ve been wrestling Chris Hansen all along.

Christine: He’s like, “I’m not–“ Yeah. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Prison. Prison. Straight to prison.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Em’s already waiting.

Em: We are so funny. Okay, so–

Christine: I, [laughs] I feel like Gemini season is the best. Don’t you guys agree? [laughs]

Em: I– Like wherever the stars are, I’m manic for sure.

Christine: Do you–

Em: Like something’s happening. Anyway.

Christine: I’m a– I’m surely activated, I can tell you that much.

Em: Activated is a great way to put it.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: Not like, like cosmologically unwell. Like– [laughs]

Christine: Just cosmologically activated.

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Em: Okay. Oh, by the way, my, my– I have this thing on my phone where I get a, a word every hour, like a vocabulary word.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: And, um–

Christine: Like a dementia test? [laughs]

Em: I can hear you laughing. Like what–

Christine: What are you talking about?

Em: Like a word a day, but I get a word an hour. And–

Christine: A word an hour? Why? Okay. Sorry, go on.

Em: 'Cause I’m trying, I’m trying to learn 24 words a day. [mockingly] Oh?

Christine: Okay. What’s your, what’s your newest word? But then after this, you’re gonna have to learn four words. It just feels like a lot. You’re already learned about like a–

Em: Well, one of them was “cyclothymic.” And it– I– I’ve, I’ve, I’ve– That sometimes feels a little like how I’m– how my brain feels when I’m–

Christine: It– Does it? What does it mean? Can you teach me?

Em: I’m trying to go back into the, the thing to– [chuckles]

Christine: Cyclothymic.

Em: Uh, let me see. What was the definition? Oh, wait. Ha– I think they, they gave me the wrong definition– [chuckles]

Christine: They’re like, they’re like, “You–“

Em: –because this one says “a rare chronic mood disorder.” Never mind. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Never mind. Never mind. Never mind. Jack, cut that out. I– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Wait a minute. Were you diagnosing me under the table? [laughs]

Em: No. [laughs]

Christine: Can you imagine? It’s recording me, and it’s like, “Ah, I’ve got just the thing. It’s not a kundalini awakening. It’s cyclothymia.”

Em: No. [laughs] I–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: The definition– I swear to God, I have to go find it in my stupid app now. But it was– it said like, “Oh, when you’re like feeling like a really heightened like, like excitement and like jazzed about– or, or you have like little lows.” Oh, wait. That does sound like– [laughs]

Christine: Oh, “a mild chronic form of bipolar d–“ Oh, yeah, that’s relevant to this conversation.

Em: Well, I do feel an inte– sometimes an intense high and an intense low, but–

Christine: Hey, question. Is that app actually called WebMD and you’re just misreading it?

Em: No, it’s– [laughs]

Christine: Okay. [laughs]

Em: It’s this stupid– It’s like– Like the last one I just got is: “Do you know which one of these words is a synonym of, of oenophile?” No, I don’t.

Christine: Like no–

Em: I don’t even know what oenophile is.

Christine: No. Is this another mood disorder?

Em: Oh, here, here are the options.

[Em holds up their phone to the camera. At the top is a light gray card with the word “oenophile” on it. Below on a dark gray background with three buttons listing the multiple choice options: “winebuff,” “paronomasia,” and “loquacity.”]

Em: An oenophile – “winebuff,” “par–“

Christine: Oh.

Em: –“paronomasia,” or “loquacity.”

Christine: Hold on, let me look at the word.

Em: Wine?

Christine: No. Try loquacity. I could be wrong.

Em: It was winebuff.

Christine: Ah! You’re so much smarter than me.

Em: So I guess you, uh, are an, an oenophile or you’ve been an oenophile.

Christine: I guess a fucking idiot is what I am.

Em: No– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Anyway, sorry. I didn’t mean to like say that like, “Oh, look at me.” Like, I need to make like light of that. I thought the– I obviously need to pay attention to my vocabulary better before I just start saying words.

Christine: I love word apps. Don’t worry. I clearly need more of them–

Em: [groans]

Christine: –to learn what an oenophile is, but.

Em: Anyway, I’ve been feeling, uh– This Gemini season, I have been feeling a– like a higher high–

Christine: Loquacious.

Em: A, a–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Like a– I’m on a, a whole other level. I’m feeling good.

Christine: Yeah, we’re manic. It’s what it’s called. It’s okay. It’s–

Em: Romanic?

Christine: I said it’s called manic, but yeah–

Em: Oh. [laughs]

Christine: –also Romanic. [laughs]

Em: I, I, I feel like I’m microdosing mania just a little bit, but in a–

Christine: Oh, well, now talk about Fallout Boy lyrics. “Microdosing mania.” Are we shitting ourselves right now? Come on. Let’s be serious.

Em: Whatever. Maybe it’s just ’cause I finally don’t feel like a fucking bruise. I think maybe I’m just like at a normal level of happy currently.

Christine: Write all of that down. That’s a Fallout Boy song. Again, like–

Em: “Microdosing Mania Because I Finally Don’t Feel Like A Bruise.”

Christine: Yeah, it’s just really– It writes itself. You’re really– You’re channeling right now.

Em: Apologies if any of that was offensive. I was not, not trying to cause a thing. I– [sighs]

Christine: I–

Em: I just need to read my vocabulary words before I start using them. Okay. Anyway, where were we? These–

Christine: I, I don’t know.

Em: Oh! I know the “if I can’t harm you in this life, I’ll do it in the next one.”

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah. My new jiu-jitsu move.

Em: Yes, yes, yes. So–

Christine: I’m gonna spell it out on a Ouija board. [laughs]

Em: This, uh– So this guy, he was not dressed as a planchette per chance–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –but he was the grandfather who allegedly cursed them on their deathbed, and he might be–

Christine: Right.

Em: –the man that they keep hearing and seeing throughout the house.

Christine: Yeah. Just might.

Em: Just might. Um, and there was actually– they– the family had a few mediums and psychics coming in during all of this because they’re like, “What do we do with this activity?” And one medium came in and said, without knowing anything, that they thought the grandfather was haunting them and that Estefanía was also in the home trying to stop him from hurting the family.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: And so what they were witnessing was almost like this battle between like Estefanía protecting them and Grandpa like overtaking the situation.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Um, there was even a f–

Christine: Like a battle for good and evil. Oh my god, that’s crazy.

Em: There was even a, a female EVP, a– like a female voice caught on EVP that, um, said, “Beware of Grandfather,” essentially.

Christine: [gasps] Gasp.

Em: After living like this for months, for months, like I think like–

Christine: Jeez.

Em: –nearing a year, um, one night, the activity gets even worse. The mother of Estefanía– I think her name was Conception.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Never hear that name anymore. Um, she said that she felt something in her room, told her husband, and said something’s here, and then felt something grab her hands and feet. Eugh.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And the fact that like it happened after you said, “Something’s here,” means like–

Christine: Uh, yeah.

Em: –it– it’s like they wanna be like, “Oh, you got me.” Like–

Christine: Yeah. It’s like, “Time to move.” Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

Em: They then felt and saw a shadow staring at them from down the hall, which–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –like I can’t imagine. Um, and crucifixes literally on the wall began rotating upside down.

Christine: No.

Em: Like out of a fucking movie.

Christine: It always–

Em: Something grabs you. You see something staring at you from the end of the hall, and the crucifixes between the two of you start twisting.

Christine: [makes a slow, creepy creaking sound] Yeah.

Em: One source said they didn’t actually, uh, uh– Well, mainly, um, in most stories that I, I read about this, they said that the family was so overwhelmed and scared about this that they called the police. One source said that they didn’t call the police, but neighbors actually called–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –complaining about loud pounding coming from the family’s walls.

Christine: Oh, either one is bad.

Em: Either is bad. But when the police got there, the family was literally waiting outside in the rain. They were like, “We don’t wanna be there anymore.”

Christine: Fuck.

Em: There were a few officers– I think it was three or four officers who went in, and the case was being handled by Inspector Negri [pronounced “nuh-gree”].

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Negri [pronounced “neh-gree”]. N-E-G-R-I. So they go in, and they investigate, and they’ve heard the family telling them like, “We think there’s a ghost. We think there’s a ghost.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Can you be a cop– Imagine being a cop and like you literally go to a house and they’re like, “Oh no, nothing to see here except I think there’s a ghost in there.” Like what would you do? I– I’d be like, “I don’t handle ghosts. What do– What am I supposed to do?”

Christine: I’d be like, “Finally, an interesting day on the job.”

Em: I– Maybe. Yeah. Or I’d be like, “Oh, at least someone’s not gonna like hurt me.” Well, I don’t know. Maybe.

Christine: Yeah. I think I would be like, “Oh, there’s probably either someone in the house or maybe there’s like a carbon monoxide leak,” you know, like–

Em: Right.

Christine: Or like, I mean, if I knew that they were going through something so traumatic, maybe I’d be like, “Oh, it’s– Grief does funny things,” you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Like if they had lost their daughter and, you know– So I, I don’t know. I don’t know.

Em: I, um, I agree with you.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: I think, I think I would also– Not to placate you, [chuckles] but–

Christine: [laughs] “You’re right, Christine.”

Em: Well, I was like– I realized I was like, “Oh, I just said you’re right, basically, but I don’t wanna–“ You– I do– I totally agree that I think my first thought would be, “I think you are getting carbon monoxide poisoning,” or–

Christine: Yeah, something is–

Em: –that you’re dealing with a mental health issue.

Christine: Right. 'Cause it’s, it’s like– Yeah, it’s just a strange occurrence.

Em: Even though I believe in ghosts, I would almost hope that what was happening is you were having car–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: 'Cause I don’t, I don’t want the answer to be, “Oh, it’s for sure ghosts.”

Christine: “There’s a demonic civil war happening in your home.”

Em: [chuckles] Right.

Christine: Like that’s not really where I would go straight away.

Em: Now, the reason that this case is so popular in Spain is because that this was the first time, at least there, that a police report, a docu– an official police report documa– documented unexplained activity.

Christine: [gasps] Oh, okay.

Em: A lot of people say like this is the first, and maybe the only, case in Spain where police reports, um, say like “the cause of the issue is something paranormal.” That is not true. The technical situation that they wrote down was that there was “phenomena.”

Christine: Mm, that’s a good word.

Em: But they, they never actually say what they observed was paranormal. They keep it very vague. But people have kind of–

Christine: Good enough for me. [chuckles]

Em: Yeah. People have twisted it into like this is a case where like the police determined it was ghosts. Um, but these– Here are some events that are actually from the report. And this is translated, so I, I don’t know how accurate all of it is. But from what we know, the, the officers all went into the bathroom, which the family said was the most haunted area of the house–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and they felt a severe temperature drop that none of them had experienced before. They went through the rest of the house and felt a weird presence. Some of them said that they felt sick, which, you might be right, might be carbon monoxide poisoning. Um, they heard pounding throughout the home, but nobody was there to make a noise. The– One of the cupboard doors flew open and almost hit a cop in the face.

Christine: Oh! Well.

Em: They saw an odd s– Like I guess he ducked in time. They saw an odd stain appear on a tablecloth before their very eyes.

Christine: Mm.

Em: They saw a cross rip itself off the wall–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and then three scratch marks appeared where the cross was.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: This is a quote that “their observations were recorded, stamped, and filed by the inspector who has never redacted their statements and has confirmed the validity of this report.” So–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –they’re not saying this is for sure paranormal, but they have put it in a report with or without a known cause, saying, “This is what happened, and we’re not, we’re not taking it back what we said.”

Christine: Okay.

Em: So although the police were there and did make a report and did witness some things that they can’t explain, there was nothing they could do. They’re cops–

Christine: Right.

Em: –not exorcists. So they–

Christine: Yeah, that would suck if the police come out and said, “Yep, it is haunted. Anyway, have a good night.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like what? What the fuck? What do you can– do? What could you do?

Em: So they left and, um– But they wrote a report. Okay. And the family very quickly moved out basically. They were like, “Well, our only way of–“

Christine: Okay.

Em: “–getting help came.”

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: “We’ve had mediums here, and they’ve said something’s going on, so we’re gone.” And when they left, they had no other paranormal experiences happen, and new families who moved into the house haven’t had any activity.

Christine: Really?

Em: But, um, some investigators have gone in in between people living there and claimed to get activity. I don’t really know what that is. There’s apparently a ghost hunting show in Spain that has covered this house. And I tried to watch it, but it was in– Well, first of all, it’s in Spanish. Second of all, the only place that I could watch it, my computer wasn’t letting me. I think I need to update something, but it was like, “You can’t actually watch this.” It was like an error. So I don’t–

Christine: Mm.

Em: I don’t know–

Christine: You need a new Flash plugin. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] I know. Um, anyway, I like to think they’re the Zak Bagans of Spain. Um–

Christine: We do have to watch that at some point. That sounds delightful.

Em: At, at some point. But they said that they caught something. I don’t– I didn’t see it, so I can’t tell you. But since this case, it’s been speculated, obviously, if the family really experienced anything paranormal or if their daughter was just suffering and then they were grieving–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –or maybe they were just exaggerating the story in some way. The siblings have obviously gotten older, and some of them have suggested that the situation was definitely exaggerated and their sister was not possessed.

Christine: Oh, wow. Okay.

Em: The mother though seems to have maintained–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –that the story is true.

Christine: Oh…

Em: But she’s also had her own separate psych eval and–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –apparently, it, quote, “showed emotional instability, anxiety, and need for attention.” That makes people think that she was making up this story.

Christine: Mm. First of all, that feels really rude. Um–

Em: Like so rude. I was like–

Christine: Right?

Em: –“I feel weird saying this out loud.”

Christine: Yeah, it feels gross. Uh, yeah, your daughter is dead. Sorry that she’s fucking trying, but whatever. I mean, yeah. I don’t know.

Em: I wonder– I, I wonder if it was just like a bad translation, and it’s just like–

Christine: I mean, it could be. And also like I don’t know her. I, I really don’t. So why do I– I don’t know anything, but–

Em: It, um, it–

Christine: –feels kind of–

Em: I would imagine too– I, I think I saw in one source that like the mother was also– had had some mental health stuff or was maybe suffering and hadn’t had that looked at, and so maybe it was two generations of people who were hurting and didn’t know.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, I’m not totally sure, but it sounds like people have reason to question.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: So that being said, the police did seem to observe activity in the house that lined up with what the family seemed to witness.

Christine: It’s pretty weird.

Em: So like it, it is interesting that even if this was all quote “made up,” then how come like on a police report where people are not willing to redact their statements–

Christine: Right. If it were exaggerated, then why would the police be part of that? Yeah.

Em: Exactly. Like they clearly saw something–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and it did line up with what others had seen. So–

Christine: And if they’ve like since confirmed it’s not a hoax document or something.

Em: Yeah. So it’s, um, it’s–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –eerie. And they didn’t know what was, uh– Like you just said, they didn’t know what was going on, s– but they still had similar experiences. So maybe some of it’s true. My last bullet point is just to say in 2017, a horror movie came out called Veronica–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –which is loosely based on the case, and I guess it also has a prequel called Sister Death. Yikes.

Christine: Oh. Oh, is that the nun?

Em: Ohh…

Christine: ’Cause I thought the sister, but then I thought, “Oh, wait. That’s what you call a nun, like Sister So-and-so.”

Em: Yeah. Maybe. I didn’t watch them. Um, but in case you wanted to watch movies and then have a fun fact about them, you can tell them that it’s based on this case, so.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, anyway, that is the case of Estefanía and the–

Christine: Wow, that is a startling story.

Em: –the Vallecas Case.

Christine: I feel like that’s the kind of thing that would, would have made me avoid a Ouija board as a kid. Like that’s the kind of thing that will do it for me. That’s scary.

Em: Yeah, yeah. So hopefully, it, uh– hopefully, I did it justice. I, I was really–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –working off of whatever English sources I could find, so.

Christine: Yeah. I wonder has anybody ever thought to theori– I mean, maybe this is a stretch, but thought to theorize about whether the board had some like– I mean, I don’t know what that would be asbestos or fiber– something fiberglass like in it–

Em: It could have been, yeah.

Christine: –that like she inhaled and maybe it was– I mean, I don’t know. Maybe that’s a stretch. I don’t know. I’m no scientist.

Em: And I– I’ll– I mean, I’m with you. I also wonder like– First of all, I wonder if she broke the board, did anything even come out? Or were these teenagers that just like wanted to like end it with a spooky ending?

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Or maybe she broke it and like dust came off of it and–

Christine: Right. Like it was like cardboard or s– who knows what it was made of. Right.

Em: And they just turned it into like, “No, it was this like thick white smoke,” versus–

Christine: Right.

Em: –like dust smoke. Um, or it could have been like whatever they used to make the material of a Ouija board. It could have been toxic. I, I don’t know.

Christine: Yeah, it’s weird.

Em: I don’t know. I don’t even know–

Christine: Like if there was like a–

Em: –if that part is true. It could have just been like–

Christine: Right.

Em: –“Oh, I heard that she’s used a Ouija board and now she’s possessed.” I don’t know.

Christine: Wow. Well, I guess it’s, um, how stories get told. Uh, good job. Good job covering it though.

Em: Thank you. Thank you.

Christine: Um–

Em: Well, happy birthday. I was, I was trying to find something somewhat connected to you, and 1991 was–

Christine: A 1991 Ouija board story in the girls’ bathroom? I mean, I think that’s probably pretty–

Em: Of a Catholic school. [chuckles]

Christine: Of a Cath– I mean, Sister Death? Are we kidding?

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Like, come on.

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Christine’s Story – Serial Killers Astrology

Christine: Hello, everyone. We just had a wonderful Yappy Hour in, uh, in astrology mode. And it’s a good thing we did because we are here to talk about serial killer star signs today.

Em: [gasps]

Christine: Happy birthday, Em. We’re doing astrology bir– We’re doing some astrology, uh, today as–

Em: You said “no” to crime. “No crime on my birthday.”

Christine: We’re gonna talk about star signs in serial killer, um– and how they, how they– What’s the word? The Venn diagram? I don’t know.

Em: How they mesh? How they–

Christine: We’re gonna list out the stats, the star sign stats. Okay?

Em: I’m so excited. Well, for those who don’t know, there was some ep– recording recently where we talked about– I, I don’t even know how we got here–

Christine: It was last week. Y–

Em: –but this was a request– It was a request one of us made that like–

Christine: You said, you said, “Why don’t– I would love for you to look more into astrology as like a topic for the show”–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and I thought, “Well, next week’s our birthday episode. Um, I’ll look into see if anybody’s done any research on this.” And there have been a few, not enough to do an episode, so I’m–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –I only have like a little intro bit. However, it’s fascinating, and, uh, I was doing some digging. I found, uh, a couple articles that claimed to have done the research, and then I found somebody on Reddit who really did the fucking research–

Em: Ah! Okay, great.

Christine: –and had the receipts, and I went, “Okay, no more of the memes, I guess.” 'Cause ironically, it was in r/astrologymemes, but this person put like all their research. Uh, so, crimeandinvestigation.co.uk, um, “Which zodiac symbol has the most killers?” Um, do you have any guesses here? Because I feel like this is the exact kind of thing that’s gonna, um, stir up opinions, and I wonder if you have any opinions before I bi-bias you in any way on like if you were to– And listen, judgment out of the room. We’re just– It’s– We’re just playing, folks. We’re– This is all alleged. Nobody’s calling you a serial killer. But, Em, if you had to pick a star sign [chuckles] that was most likely in your mind serial killer energy, which one would it be?

Em: Probably–

Christine: Or murderer.

Em: I, I– The, the gag would be Gemini, wouldn’t it? So.

Christine: The gag would be. I thought you were gonna say Scorpio, but I–

Em: I mean, that’s too easy. I mean, obviously people– I, I already– Uh, Scorpios scare me, but they, they don’t scare me in a serial killer way. They scare me in a, “I’m, I’m uneasy, and I don’t know why” way. And– But I feel the same way about, I’ve said this before, Tauruses. They freak me out.

Christine: Oh, me too. Me too.

Em: But, um–

Christine: They intimidate me.

Em: But Tauruses– I, I mean, I’ve met people who are Scorpios, and we’re fine. Like, like I can actually– I think some people truly think I can’t sit in a room with a fucking Scorpio like I like really fucking hate Scorpios.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: No, I’m just– I can’t– I don’t even really wanna like–

Christine: It’s a bit. I mean, it’s a bit.

Em: I really don’t even wanna have to like play pretend and defend myself on that.

Christine: But Scorpios are very– Scorpios are very deep, and so you’re, you’re making a joke with people who are very deep, and it– you’re troubling them.

Em: Taking it– I guess so. Or maybe I’ve just–

Christine: You’re poking a scorpion, Em.

Em: –it’s been too long.

Christine: Like, think about what you’re doing. You’re poking at a scorpion–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and saying, “I don’t know what your problem is.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like, that’s what you’re doing.

Em: Uh, no. I, I, uh– Scorpios freak me out, and, uh–

Christine: They like that. They want that.

Em: I, I guess until I say it enough times and they go, “Don’t be mean.” And I’m like, “I–“

Christine: Actually, Em, here’s what I’ll say.

Em: “–can’t do this.”

Christine: You’ve said, “I hate Scorpios.” You’ve never said, “They freak me out.” I think those are important distinctions. And as–

Em: Interesting.

Christine: –a Mercury in Taurus, which we famously know, I don’t know what it means, but I’ve decided it means you gotta be very clear with your words. So if you’re trying to say–

Em: I guess so. Shit.

Christine: –they scare you, I think we can all agree on that, and I think they would almost be more pleased than anything.

Em: You– I– Scorpios make me very nervous ’cause I don’t know what the fuck you’re thinking. There’s some–

Christine: They’re so deep.

Em: I guess. I don’t– Not that I’ve ever thought like, “Oh, they’re not deep,” I just– I don’t know what it is. I, I can’t put– I can’t read you, and I hate that.

Christine: That’s their whole thing.

Em: And, um, and S– And Tauruses I– freak me out in a different way because they’re very, very blunt a lot of times to a point where they are, um, not worried about hurting your feelings, and I feel like I do a lot of like, um–

Christine: Do you wanna know something?

Em: I feel like in a lot of like conflict I like to almost like be honest but still like gentle parent through it, and Tauruses are like, “Blagh,” and they just say it, and I go, “Oh my god.”

Christine: I think that’s where my Tau– See? Mercury in Taurus, communication in Taurus. That’s startling.

Em: It is. [chuckles] 'Cause I’m like, “Oh, we’re not like both trying to like be warm about this?” Like it– I feel like–

Christine: Well, it’s interesting you say that. I just, uh, I just hired a trainer to help me with some– [chuckles] literally like how to breathe and stuff like that and like–

Em: Get out.

Christine: –pelvic floor stuff.

Em: That’s cool.

Christine: And she’s like helping me with– And I really like it. It’s really cool. Like doing some strength training and like rehab stuff. And she’s a Taurus. And of course, I found that out immediately. And then, um, one of the first things she said to me, she says, “That sounds like something for your therapist’s office.” And I went–

Em: Yeah, like they’re like– It’s– See– Okay, so here’s my thing. And–

Christine: I was like, “Why? This is why I hate you. You scare me.”

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. That’s exact– That’s a perfect example. One of my, um, things, and I– this is like a Gemini thing; this is just like however I operate thing, is that the number one quality I look for in a person is like warmth. It like–

Christine: That's your Cancer Moon.

Em: Okay. I, I– To me, like it’s just like there’s– If I’m at a party, I will walk away have– like feeling weird about somebody where I’m like, “[sighs] I don’t know what it was.”

Christine: That’s probably also your psychicness.

Em: Sure. It could be. [chuckles] It could be that I’m psychic. I don’t know. But anytime I’m– I, I meet somebody and they’re not at least attempting warmth, I’m like, “Shouldn’t we both–“ Even if it’s like feels a little like we’re doing a dance while we get to know each other, it’s like, “Shouldn’t we both be putting an effort to like make each other feel comfortable?”

Christine: Ohh.

Em: But I feel like there’s a lot of people who for, for whatever reason they have, I’m not saying it’s a bad reason, but a lot of people are like, “I don’t owe you that yet.” Like– And people are just like a little more cold–

Christine: Yeah. Like–

Em: –or at least I s–

Christine: And some people don’t m–

Em: –I read it as cold, and then I want really– I’m like turned off.

Christine: So it’s so interesting because I used to be– ’cause I feel like that’s a lot of also masking, and like if you meet someone–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –masking at your level, it’s like, “Okay, we’re both on the same wavelength.” and I feel like that’s something I’ve also been picking up on is like as I dra– like stop masking so much, I almost sense discomfort sometimes in other people.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: And it’s like, oh, I have had to just learn to like live with that or, or–

Em: Interesting.

Christine: –like to like feel that because sometimes I’m like, “I don’t– I t– Like I’m– It’s too draining to be masking right now.”

Em: Yeah. It–

Christine: You know what I mean?

Em: Which is–

Christine: But so like it’s interesting you say that ’cause it’s like oh, I– ’cause I, I was always in the same level. Like I’m uncomfortable if you’re– And you know what’s so funny is my– is the trainer said that, and I was like three years ago, I would have gotten so spun out by that comment, and like now I’m like, “Oh, whatever. She just said something, and like it’s probably true, and I was probably overblabbing.”

Em: Well, that’s one of the things that freaks me out too ’cause– Like I said it could be for whatever reason. I’m sure people like– You have good reason to like not– I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have thought about it as masking until you just said that. But, um, yeah. It– Like I don’t put it on anybody that like you should be this way, but the way that I’m coming across I just hope people are–

Christine: Well, it’s just your own– Totally.

Em: Yeah. It’s just–

Christine: No, I mean, it’s your own–

Em: We just, we just don’t me– Like it’s no–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Like I don’t hate them later–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –or I don’t like crash out about it and think like, “I can’t believe they were this way.” I just think like, “Oh, we operate differently,” and I just–

Christine: Well, you’re probably draw– drawn to a certain energy and vice versa. And like if you sense– I mean, same here. If, if I sense even a little bit that somebody’s like, “I don’t feel like talking to you,” I’m like, “Great, me neither. Bye. Like I don’t wanna talk to you if you don’t wanna talk to me.” [chuckles] So yeah, I, I totally understand that.

Em: I think the thing with Tauruses specifically is that like they– Anytime they have been like direct, they’ve never been wrong. Like they– Like that’s–

Christine: [laughs] That’s so true.

Em: –what freaks me out too is that like–

Christine: That’s so true.

Em: It’s like they’re–

Christine: It’s like the accountability part. Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: –they’re direct, and it– that alone freaks me out because I’m like there are warmer nicer ways to have put that where like you’re putting people more at ease. Although like I shouldn’t expect that that’s something people wanna put on their own shoulders, but–

Christine: But, but like it’s like you shouldn’t expect that–

Em: –but at the same time, what they’re saying is so fucking true that I’m like, “Could you at least be a little kind ’cause you’re calling me out and kind of in a mean way?” [chuckles] And–

Christine: Well, and you can’t control your own– I mean, whether you understand it on an intellectual leve– which I’ve had to learn as a [stammers] airhead all this time. But like yeah, even though you understand like, “Oh, I shouldn’t expect,” it’s like you can’t control how your nervous system reacts or how you’re comfortable or how you– Exactly. So–

Em: I just– I respect a Taurus, but I fear them because I know they’re gonna say something–

Christine: Oh, yeah.

Em: –and not be–

Christine: I love that you’re–

Em: –totally worried.

Christine: So true. It’s so true that they’re, that they’re um, that they’re right.

Em: I have– I mean, I have a lot of Taurus friends, but I am scared of ever like being vulnerable around them because they’re just– And like sometimes you need a friend who’s just gonna call you out on your bullshit.

Christine: Exactly. Exactly.

Em: Like I’m not saying like Tauruses are bad because of this. I’m just saying you guys freak me the fuck out because sometimes I just want like–

Christine: Well, especially certain s–

Em: –a gentle landing space, and a Taurus is not often that.

Christine: Well, maybe they are if they like work on themselves–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –which I feel like Gemini often get ca– I’m serious ’cause I feel like Gemini often get cast as like these like totally flaky like insincere like fake people. And I was– Like I think maybe on a surface level that could be somebody who– Like Donald Trump is a Gemini. We’re gonna get into this today–

Em: Ooh!

Christine: –uh, speaking of villains, okay. So like, you know, there are some very terrible aspects like of Gemini as well, and we get a lot of shit for it, rightfully so.

Em: Sure.

Christine: But like also you get– There’s so much strength there too, and if you use your powers for good or you work on yourself and you’re like, “Oh, this is something like I can form and like, you know, have fun with rather than–“ I don’t know. I, I think it depends. But you’re, you’re right. I feel like, um, Taurus can get a little intense. I don’t really know many. And then I–

Em: Oh, really?

Christine: –got a personal trainer, and I went, “Oh my god, astrology is real.”

Em: Taurus is actually one of the only people that I confidently and accurately always guess when I meet somebody. Like it’s–

Christine: It’s actually scary.

Em: I’m like, “Are you a Taurus?” And I can’t do that with any other sign–

Christine: And you know what she said?

Em: –but I always know when I’m talking to a Taurus.

Christine: I said to her, “Are you a S–” Or she said, “I’m a Taurus,” and I went, “Yeah, I can tell.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And then she said, “And I’m a Scorpio Moon.” And I went, “Oh my god, I don’t think so.” Uh–

Em: [laughs] And then like the Kill Bill music plays, and there’s sirens everywhere.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: I–

Christine: I was like backing up. [chuckles] Yeah.

Em: I, um– No, I, I, I– I know I just like went on a whole tirade. Hopefully like no Tauruses feel totally attacked or anything. I just like– I– We just–

Christine: I think it’s when you said, “but they’re always right,” that again like as long as, Em, you’re using your words so carefully–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –to say, uh, uh, “Scorpios? Don’t like them ’cause they scare me,” I think now we can all come to an agreement that yes, that is true.

Em: They, they freak me out. I mean– And like I’m, I’m sure you’re lovely people. I know lovely Tauruses, but I– you– your exterior is a, a little tougher than others, and, um, it’s– it, it frightens me ’cause I know what you’re gonna say is going to humble me–

Christine: What’s your–

Em: –and I don’t really feel like being humbled. Like that’s it. You know? [chuckles]

Christine: It’s not for– not today. And like that’s why when I hired a personal trainer, I was like, “I’m here to be humbled.”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: “And you’re doing your job,” and like it’s like you’re in the perfect spot, you know?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like I get it. I get it. And I said, “You know, my Mercury–“

Em: I feel like Tauruses would be incredible consultants ’cause they’d be like, “This is what the fuck’s the matter. Fix it here. Do this.”

Christine: Oh, and she is a consultant–

Em: “Done.”

Christine: –and she literally does. And she has a button on the wall that says, “I hate fun.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And she says, “I pre–“ And she says, “I press this button when it’s time to be quiet.” And I said, “Okay.” [laughs] And she said–

Em: Wow. See, that would horrify the literal shit out of me.

Christine: It was hilarious because then I said, “So how was your weekend?” And I was like “[gasps],” and like I literally caught myself.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I went, “Damn, I really can’t shut up. Like, I really can’t shut up.” And so sh-she was like, “I hate fun.”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: And I was like, “Oh my god.” She’s like, “Yeah, someone gave this to me.” And she’s like, “I’m not offended. I just–“

Em: Actually, the more we talk about this, the more that you are very Taurus and that you’re like, “The don’t placate me.” 'Cause I think what, uh– one of the many reasons that Geminis get accurate bad reps is that like we come across as fake. But I think– In my mind, I really don’t think of it as fake. I think I’m like– I’m desperately trying to make sure that everyone feels comfortable in this, and therefore, it feels like being placated.

Christine: Yes. And it’s sort of like, “Oh, but–“

Em: And Tauruses are like, “I don’t have fucking time for this. Just tell me what’s going on.”

Christine: Well, I think it’s–

Em: And I’m like, “I’m trying to keep you comfortable.”

Christine: Well, I think it’s also like, no– I think Taurus is also like, “You don’t need to keep me comfortable.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “I can keep myself comfortable.”

Em: And I– And that is just a, a– I just– We can’t understand each other.

Christine: But now I’m like at a place where I’m like, “I don’t need anyone else to make me comfortable,” you know?

Em: Mm.

Christine: But that came with many years of discomfort and learning to sit there and go, “Oh, this is a really uncomfortable moment, and I guess I didn’t die.” Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So yeah, once your nervous system realizes you’re not gonna die every time something’s like uncomfortable or scary, you sort of like, I don’t know, let your guard down, I guess, and things just seem less scary.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It’s like, “Oh, you can say that and like–“ I don’t know. And then I saw her later in the day, and she was so sweet, and she had her daughter there, and like Leona– It was just like– I was like, “I love it.” I don’t know. I probably would have spun out and like never seen her again a few years ago ’cause I would have been like so insecure or whatever, and now I’m like, “Whatever. She just said something stupid and like funny–“

Em: I, uh, I feel like–

Christine: “–and true.”

Em: –we’ve either gained or lost all of our Taurus listeners through this– It was like a ten-minute tiride specifically about Tauruses. But–

Christine: I mean, of all things too–

Em: –whatever.

Christine: –’cause it’s funny like we’re literally here to talk about Geminis and, um–

Em: So was that the re– Was that the answer? That Gemini are the main serial killers?

Christine: So Geminis are usually cast in that role in the memes and in the–

Em: I see.

Christine: –kind of like pop culture. Uh, Ted Bundy is a Gemini. Donald Trump is a Gemini. We’ve got a lot of Gemini– um, Samuel Little. There are a lot of Gemini serial killers. Like it’s not cute. Okay?

Em: Okay. Got it.

Christine: Uh, but this website, crimeinvestigation.co.uk, um, they did their own running of the numbers, and they landed on number one being Scorpio.

Em: [chuckles] Well–

Christine: Well.

Em: –told you so.

Christine: Number two, Gemini. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Maybe that’s why they freak me out because I’m like, “We’re a little too similar.”

Christine: Well, you’re very similar, and they’re very deep. So they’re like, “Come with me.” They’re scorpions. Like, they’re under rocks.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like they like to be in the dark, and they like shadow work, and they like to be– And like we don’t like that. We’re e– We like to be up here. We like to be having fun.

Em: Like, “I can’t shut up. All the information is at your disposal.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Like, “What do you mean you’re not matching me here and telling me everything?”

Christine: “I’m here.” And they’re underground going like–

Em: They’re too mysterious.

Christine: –“You can’t hurt me.” Yeah. It’s really interesting. I love it. I find it so interesting. Um, so, okay, Scorpio, they said, was number one with– And they did some roundup of serial killers. 17 was the total for Scorpio.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Gemini and Sagittarius tied with 14 each.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Virgo and Libra– Very Virgo and Libra-coded to tie at 13 each. Uh, Aries, Cancer, Capricorn, 11; Pisces, 10; Taurus, 9; Leo and Aquarius, 6. So that–

Em: Interesting. I, I could see why Taurus is closer to the bottom because they get all their shit directly out there anyway. They don’t gotta kill you. They just say–

Christine: They don’t. Exactly. And that’s why it’s like–

Em: They, they kill your spirit a little bit when they’re a little too tough on love. That’s all. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah. They’re straightforward. But part of that is so interesting, right? Because it’s like, oh, but then they’re less toxic ’cause they’re not keeping all that shit in there, you know? So it’s like a–

Em: Yeah. They, they certainly seem to have the healthier boundaries.

Christine: Yeah. Um, Okay. So then from r/astrologymemes, um– And even though, by the way, Aquarius was down at the bottom, um, with Leo, uh, Aquarius, I think, was the most often cited, um, cult leader. [chuckles]

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Which fits totally, ’cause Aquarians are very like, you know, kind of like off the beaten path. Like their whole thing is like they’re different, right?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, and they see the world differently, and, and so that kind of did fit.

Em: And they’re a lot of fun. I would, I would absolutely follow–

Christine: They are fun.

Em: I’m more likely to end up in a cult if the leader’s fun.

Christine: Yeah, I think most people probably agree. Um, serial killers by zodiac sign. Now, this is from, um, r/astrologymemes, the subreddit, which, uh, ta– It, It’s not– This is not a, a joke. This person is very serious about their sources. Um–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –they put their sources. They even wrote a note down here at the bottom o– of their graphics that says, “Note: Includes individual known or confirmed serial killers, including those who are not convicted. Excludes serial killers who remain unidentified, such as the Atlanta Ripper and the Zodiac Killer, for whom birthdays are not known, and who killed in pairs or groups.” So they were like–

Em: Wow.

Christine: –“I didn’t fuck around.” Yeah. I love this energy. I– They– I think–

Em: Should be on JSTOR.org or something.

Christine: Yeah. Oh my god, you’re s– Oh, wow. Ooh, you just got me with that.

Em: Feels like an abstract. Feels like a– For a paper.

Christine: It does feel like an abstract, Em. And so they made this beautiful graphic, um, “Serial Killers By Zodiac Signs.” Now, this is gonna turn everything fucking topsyturvy– Not everything. The Tauruses, you’re still completely at the bottom. Okay?

Em: [chuckles] Okay.

Christine: The fewest of you are serial killers. We get it. Okay? Taurus, 27. Um, guess who’s tied with Taurus? Gemini. Okay?

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Now, this person was trying to put to bed a lot of the flack that gets thrown around toward the signs, including Gemini, including Sag. Um, unfortunately, Sag [chuckles] maintained its spot at the top of the list– [chuckles]

Em: Whoopsies.

Christine: –and Gemini went all the way down. So I don’t know.

Em: You know, I feel like if you’re gonna write something like this– I feel like this should be a law. And everybody, hear me out. This is, this is a take that I don’t think is particularly hot. Um, I think that if you are someone who is writing about astrology in a way where you’re using stats like this or an opinion might come out that you have s– like it’s a– it becomes personal in some way, I think you are obligated to tell everybody the sign of the author.

Christine: I’m so happy you said that because they gave the sign, and they said–

Em: Is it Libra? Because they seem like they’re really trying to find balance.

Christine: I love that. They’re actually a Sagittarius–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –and they said, “This is how you know I’m doing this because I want accurate information even though Sag is at the top of the list, and I’m a Sagittarius, and I didn’t like that I was at the top of the serial killer list.” [chuckles]

Em: I like how they’re like, “But see how I could have channeled my energy somewhere else in a really bad way?” [chuckles]

Christine: Uh, yeah, “But see how much worse this could have been?” Um–

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] “You’re welcome for this, by the way.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “All this hard work.”

Christine: And so what’s interesting is that like they’re spread out very evenly near the top. So we’ve got 27– So at the bottom, we’ve got Gemini and Taurus tied with 27. Now, the next highest up is Aries with 38– in the list being Aries.

Em: Jeez.

Christine: Really surprising to me. The top number, by the way, is 46. So 46, we have ties, uh, between four different signs: Cancer, Pisces, Sagittarius, Scorpio. All 46 serial killers, uh–

Em: Jesus.

Christine: –in those– split amongst those signs equally.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Yeah. Or 46 each. Um, then we’ve got, uh, Aquarius and Libra with 44. We’ve got Capricorn with 42, Virgo with 40, Leo with 39, Aries with 38, Gemini and Taurus with 27. Now, interestingly, we also have, uh, a discussion point here. And I thought some of these discussions were very interesting because now it goes into the rabbit hole. It’s like chicken-egg type conversation. And we’re saying, is it ’cause Capricorns just aren’t getting caught? Is that why they’re so low on the list?

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Is it because Geminis are actually–

Em: Well, Gem– Because Geminis are charismatic–

Christine: –cult, cult leaders?

Em: –and can dance around it maybe.

Christine: O– Right. Or are they just like off leading cults? It’s like who knows, you know?

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: But it’s like is it like Sa-Sagittarius, like they aren’t good at planning and that’s why they keep getting– they’re at the top of the list ’cause they’re the worst serial killers–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –not necessarily the most? You know, like it– people started these whole big conversations, and it was very, very– So now this is– It’s so crazy that we brought up Taurus because we weren’t gonna talk about Taurus. It’s not Taurus season anymore, um, but the only comment I brought from this subreddit, which I’d forgotten until now, is somebody who commented: “Taurus staying all the way out of the drama, both as the killer and the victim.”

Em: Yes.

Christine: Because this person also created like a “Victims Per Killer By Sign,” which I’m like– I’m not even gonna go there today.

Em: I– What a shame because I literally almost said earlier, I’m like, “I wonder if they’ve ever studied like–“

Christine: Oh, okay. We can go into that for sure.

Em: Well–

Christine: Happy to.

Em: –we don’t– But I, I was curious. I was like, “I wonder if this type of person is the most likely to be a serial killer–“

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and like we go off of like, “well, people who align with each other, that would mean that they’re probably more likely to be victims,” right?

Christine: To be victimized. Interesting. Yeah. So that c– Taurus comment saying, “Oh, staying all the way out of the drama,” and then the Taurus– a Taurus responds with the flare of a Taurus Sun– in Taurus, “At home in my bed not getting in trouble or murdered,”, uh, painting nails emoji, “way too much work.” And I’m like, “Yeah, like that’s fair.” Uh–

Em: That feels fair.

Christine: And it said, “It’s a good thing they don’t include dictators,” and I was like, “Yeah, okay. If they included dictators and like people who have k-killed more than three people on that level–“

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: “–um, like a geopolitical front, yeah, we’d probably have like a lot of Geminis [chuckles] and all sorts of stuff going on.” I don’t know. But so it’s hard to pin this one down is what I’m trying to say.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Like it’s hard to nail this down to stats.

Em: But it is– I would say this is like one of the most fascinating conversations we could have. This is such a birthday gift.

Christine: Well, then you think– Oh, good. Because then you think, “What if their Mars are like in– all in one sign and we just don’t even reali–“ You know what I mean? Like what if we layered all the signs on top of each other and we were like, “Whoa, there’s a sextile. Oh my god”?

Em: [sighs] Yeah. Unfortunately, on-once you start bringing things into it other than like someone’s Big Three–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –you fucking lost me. And then I feel like I’m the least educated person to have the conversation with. But like– But if we’re just doing fun sleepover like, “Oh my god. Well, he’s so like such a Gemini,” I could–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –I could vibe with that. I would love to have like– Have you heard of these like Lectures & Libations meetings?

Christine: [gasps] No.

Em: Where it’s like people are now hosting like essentially PowerPoint presentations at bars, and so like you can go on a day where like the topic is interesting to you. This would be a great one if like–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –like someone in like the psychic world who like knew enough about– or medium world or tarot world, someone who knew about all this astrology stuff. I would love to see a discussion between a bunch of them talking about like based on the intricacies of your houses and planets and all that.

Christine: Hey, hey listen. What's our new chat called? Our, our, uh– I keep wanting to call it “Antisocial Hour.”

Em: Uh, the ParaSocial Club.

Christine: ParaSocial Club, like that would be a great topic. I wonder if we can– 'Cause I know that, um–

Em: Get a bunch of psychics on or whatever.

Christine: I just mean like even within our group– Like I know Jeri does a lot of– She’s very actively psychic, and it like works on that regularly, and then we’ve got, um– Kalyn does tarot and, and astrology. So like we definitely have– We could definitely do breakout chats. It’s sort of like breakout chats. We’re gonna have fun with that. Um, yeah. So that– that’s like the main discussion. Now, I also pulled up like– [chuckles] ’Cause then I thought, well, okay, if we’re going with past serial killers just to [chuckles] bad people, which like this is going down a slippery slope and it’s also like, how do you–

Em: It’s like where’s the line?

Christine: Where’s the line? But– And also how do you even like categorize any of this? But, uh, this link came up of 100 most infamous Geminis, and I was like, “Ooh, now we’re talking,” you know.

Em: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christine: Like infamous. This is the most fuckass list.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I don’t know who invented this, who’s voting, okay? Uh, we’ve got number one. Coming in hot, number one, Charles II.

Em: What? No.

Christine: What?

Em: He belongs maybe on the list at all, but like not number one. [chuckles]

Christine: On the list at all at like page 400 of the forum.

Em: Yeah, like–

Christine: Like please be– don’t be ridiculous.

Em: I don’t kn– I mean, like, Angelina Jolie should be up there f– more.

Christine: She has my birthday. Thank you.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Okay, so I think you know what you’re talking about. And we have–

Em: Thank you, Chris Evans. Captain America. Fucking– I mean–

Christine: Capt– Are we joking?

Em: Technically, Captain America’s birthday is July 4th, but now, Chris Evans.

Christine: Now, Chris Evans.

Em: I mean, he’s certainly– I think people would argue they care more about him than Charles II.

Christine: Now, Em, tell me about Chris Hansen. When’s his– When’s that, when’s that fella’s birthday?

Em: [laughs] I don’t know, actually, but I feel–

Christine: You should guess.

Em: –he’s giving like Capricorn vibes. Chris Hansen.

Christine: I do feel– He’s giving to me like Virgo vibes.

Em: Something, something where he’s like all about the bo– Oh? September 13.

Christine: Is that Virgo?

Em: I think that’s Virgo.

Christine: Yeah. Okay, the–

Em: If it’s not, he’s on the cusp.

Christine: No, that’s Virgo. Yeah, for sure ’cause– Yeah. Uh, Abby Wamb– Wambach [pronounced “Wom-back”]. Wambach [pronounced “Wam-bahk”]. What the fuck? How do we say her name? Abby Wambach [pronounced “Wom-back”]–

Em: Wambach [pronounced “Wom-back”].

Christine: –is next, number two.

Em: Okay, I disagree also.

Christine: [chuckles] Charles II–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –Abby Wambach, and then Donald Trump.

Em: I think someone just googled “people who are Geminis”–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and then highlighted the entire article and put it in a chart and said, “Here’s some of them.”

Christine: Charles II, Abby Wambach, and Donald Trump. Like, what are you doing? What a weird list.

Em: I’d love to see all of them in a room together.

Christine: I mean, yeah, I guess so. I would hate it. I would really hate it.

Em: Um, I mean, here are two other people that should be on the list before them. Us.

Christine: Yeah, really. Immediately.

Em: It’s not that hard.

Christine: Immediately.

Em: Like, do your fucking research.

Christine: Do your fucking own research. Um–

Em: Insanity.

Christine: –I love, I love when people say like, “Do your own research,” and then people are like, “You are the research.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “I googled it, and you were the research. That’s why I’m here.”

Em: I, uh, I remember when I, I– I’ve– The amount of times that I had– when I was doing the QAnon research–

Christine: Oh god.

Em: –every single fucking article somewhere in it–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –said, “do your own research,” and I was like–

Christine: I– Yeah.

Em: –“I’m trying.”

Christine: It's like, “You’re an arti– You’re an article!” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Fucking JSTOR? What do you want?”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: Um, yeah. So we do have the victims here, “Victims Per Killer By Sign.” Okay?

Em: Okay.

Christine: Okay. So we have the same abstract at the bottom that like this includes the same serial killer– The serial killers that we have mentioned in the above category, these are their victims.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Oh, that sounds like a fucking SVU intro. I didn’t mean for it to. [chuckles] These are their–

Em: Where are the 500 Japanese men jumping? [mimics the Law and Order sting] “Dun-dun.”

Christine: The, the, the “bom-bom”? Um, that’s a true thing. Look it up. Do your own research, people. [chuckles]

Em: Do your own research. [chuckles] Please. I’m so fucking tired of doing the research for you.

Christine: [mimics the Law and Order sting] “Bom-bom.” Uh, okay. So, this– I am unclear of how this really works, but it looks like– Victims per killer by sign. Okay, we’ve got Capricorn with the most at 19.

Em: They’re the most likely to be a victim based on this research.

Christine: They’re the most– Yes.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Lowest was Virgo at 7.

Em: Lowest is Virgo at 7. That’s interesting. Wait–

Christine: Capricorn’s 19.

Em: Interesting. I won– You would– That’s interesting because in my mind I would think, well, Capricorns are like so studious and always prepared, and so I’d be like, oh, they’re definitely not going to–

Christine: Well, that’s also like Virgo, so they’re at the bottom. They’re–

Em: That’s true.

Christine: But then Capricorn are also known to be very, um–

Em: They’re smarty “pantses.”

Christine: They're smart, but you got street smarts?

Em: Oh, damn. Damn, spoken like a true Taurus something.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Wow.

Christine: Then we’ve got Aquarius, which hurts my heart a little bit ’cause I know Aquarians are– can be very kind of like out in their own world, um–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and kind of like detached from reality. Um, we’ve got Scorpio next with 12 instances.

Em: Okay.

Christine: A-Aries with 11; and Libra with 11; Pisces, 10; Cancer, Leo, 9; Sag, 8; Taurus, 8; Gem, 8; Virgo, 7.

Em: Shocking. I really th– I mean, I did not expect to be so low–

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: –but also I guess we’re so high on– as you said, we’re so high on the killing list, so there’s none of us to kill if we’re all the killer, I guess.

Christine: No, we’re the lowest. We’re Gemini, T– We’re the lowest on the list.

Em: I wonder if, again, that’s because we’re– we can–

Christine: Are we though? We’re such ya–

Em: –s-socialize our way out of that. [chuckles] I don’t know.

Christine: We’re so yappers. Like– Well, you mean like we’re not killers or like we’re good at getting away with it? 'Cause I don’t think–

Em: I think.

Christine: –we’re good at getting away with it.

Em: Yeah, I guess we’re not that good– I mean, especially if we’re yappers, that sounds like you’re just–

Christine: Exactly.

Em: –at some point you’re gonna– Hm.

Christine: I– You know, and it’s interesting to see here at the bottom that like the fire signs are lower on the killer list than–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –than some of the air and water sig–

Em: Well, that doesn’t surprise me.

Christine: Like the water signs are higher up.

Em: I–

Christine: I guess they’re deeply feeling.

Em: Well, you mean like so f– the fire signs are the ones less likely to get killed?

Christine: No, sorry. I’m back to the serial killer, um–

Em: Oh, oh, oh.

Christine: –graphic where Gemini and Taurus and Aries and Leo are all like at near the bottom, and then up top, you’ve got like Cancer, Pisces, Scorpio, you know, like more watery–

Em: But they’re, but they’re more likely, sorry, to be the killer or the victim?

Christine: The killer.

Em: Interesting. Well, I would imagine like if you’re a fire sign, you’ve got like a fiery personality. Maybe like you’re more hotheaded or more like temp– have a temper.

Christine: Yeah, maybe it’s not– Maybe that’s like more violent rather than serial killer, you know.

Em: Sure.

Christine: Like maybe we are dividing into like– Because, of course, killers, okay, that crosses a whole another threshold. Serial killer, you can at least put like a cap on like how many names you have because–

Em: Right.

Christine: –news reports and–

Em: Or– I mean, because then also you could divvy this up into– Which would be fascinating in its own way. And this is like– Obviously, this is just like a fun conversation.

Christine: This is–

Em: We’re not saying like if you’re a fire sign, you’re like more likely to like–

Christine: No, no.

Em: –be an abuser or something.

Christine: No. No, for sure not. For sure not.

Em: Someone’s gonna read it that way, so just disclaimer. But–

Christine: I have apparently a Mars in Leo, okay? So whatever. I’m–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Apparently, I am very aggressive. So whatever, you know. It doesn’t mean anything.

Em: But it would be interesting if we’re– for the sake of conversation, um, what numbers look like and like based on each crime, like who’s more likely to be a robber? Who’s more likely to be–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –an arsonist? Who’s more likely to be someone who, um, you know does like petty crime. Like–

Christine: And I think that’s also so complicated because it’s like, “Well, your Sun sign is one thing,” and then it’s like–

Em: Right.

Christine: “–oh, but like maybe you are more–“ If you believe in astrology, which I do, uh, [chuckles] maybe you are more, you know– Like I have a Rising and Mo– maybe sometimes you’re more in like that zone, right, and sometimes you’re more in your like Sun– I don’t know. I think it’s so hard that you could ever even pin that down to like someone’s Sun sign, which like–

Em: Right. And I–

Christine: –also is such a limiting–

Em: I– Yeah. So it’s interesting that the methodology they used was just going off of that one sign because–

Christine: But I wonder if you would even have everybody else’s Rising or Moo– you know? Like you–

Em: Right. Like the numbers could be–

Christine: Unless–

Em: The act– the information could drastically, holy shit, be totally different.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: It could all not even be about that one sign. It could be about like your– who’s– what your– fucking Mercury is in.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Like it could be anything. It could be–

Christine: I mean, Mars is aggression and sex, sex and aggression.

Em: Oh, interesting.

Christine: So I feel like that’s a big one, um, I would imagine.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Uh, I b– I imagine your Moon because that’s like your shadow side. That’s like your dark side, your, your intuition, your like deep, deep wounds, you know, is, is what your moon is. So I bet that would have a big play, like very like sensitive.

Em: So sa– someone who is not me, I feel like it would be a really interesting midnight project to go through and do everyone’s like full chart–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and then really see the overlap at every level and then–

Christine: Mm. Well, the problem too is that you would need like birth times, and I don’t think–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –we would have that for so many.

Em: Exactly.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: That’s why I say to someone who’s not me. Maybe like everyone’s e-e– all the serial killers in general.

Christine: Maybe s–

Em: I don’t know. [chuckles]

Christine: I, I mean, I– a lot of them are Gemini. There are a lot of Gemini, uh, villain energy out there, which like, again–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –I spent a long time being like kind of resentful about that, and now I’m like, “Oh no, it’s just like a matter of like what you’re showcasing to the world–“

Em: I mean–

Christine: “–what you’re using for good versus evil.”

Em: Yeah. I’ve never taken that personally. I could totally see why the stereotypes of Gemini could be bad reps.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Like that’s so easy to see. Like–

Christine: So I think the problem for me was I always– I felt so much more aligned with other parts of me that I was always like–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –very like, “What? No, like Geminis aren’t like that,” and it’s like, “Oh, no, they are. I’m, I’m just like not assoc– Like I’m like seeing it–“ I don’t know.

Em: Anytime anyone’s ever said that they have a problem with Geminis, I have never– I’ve always gone, “I totally understand it.”

Christine: I get it too.

Em: “We sound like fucking nightmares.” Um–

Christine: I get it too.

Em: But, uh, but a fun nightmare, you know?

Christine: I mean–

Em: It’s like one you kind of wanna keep looking back at. [sighs]

Christine: –at least we have a good time.

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Em: What did they say– Where does, um, uh, Aries fall in both categories?

Christine: Oh, a– So Aries was– You know, it’s interesting. Gemini and Taurus in the serial killer list were at 27 at the bottom, and then it jumps up to 38 with Aries.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So they’re second to la– or third to last or– Yeah, third from the bottom. But they also have like a big jump up from Gemini, Taurus. So, um–

Em: Interesting. I was–

Christine: And then–

Em: My mom’s an Aries, and also Aries also they, um, scare me, but I think that’s just because o-of my mom. [chuckles] So–

Christine: Well, yeah. Yeah. And 38, 39, Aries, Leo like– Yeah. So that’s next.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Um–

Em: Wa-Was there anything that you were surprised by wa– reading this outside of Geminis?

Christine: I mean– Yeah, like that the fact that like Pisces and Cancer are the highest number when like typically people joke like, “Oh, Gemini, serial killer season.” like I don’t know. 'Cause Ted Bundy and a lot of the famous ones are Gemini. So I’m like– I was really shocked by this that we were at the bottom of this list that includes– I don’t know if you add up all the numbers how many–

Em: And sorry, uh, Pisces and Cancer that, that’s most likely to be–

Christine: A serial killer.

Em: I– That doesn’t really surprise me though because aren’t they both known to be like really emotional?

Christine: Yes. And Scorp– In the third s–

Em: So I would just imagine well, they just like, quote, “snap” or something faster? I don’t know like what the thought would be.

Christine: Like all three water signs are in the top– are in first place.

Em: That is weird because they are supposed to like go with the flow more, right? Isn’t that the other thing about them?

Christine: It’s interesting. I feel like they f– [sighs] I mean, I guess Cancer makes sense, right? 'Cause the point of a c– of Cancer of the crab is like, oh, you have an hard exterior, and then you have like a soft underbelly.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like you’re like so sensitive inside, but you don’t necessarily portray that. So I guess that’s an interesting way to look at it as like maybe you have like armor– I don’t know.

Em: Sure.

Christine: You’re, you’re armored. Um, but yeah, Cancers, Pi– Sorry, Cancer, Pisces, and Scorpio, all with 46, but then tied with Sagittarius, [chuckles] which also has 46. And then like Sag, you’re all the way up there with 46, and Gemini’s down there with 27. Like that does not track to me. I’m like–

Em: No, no.

Christine: I’m shocked by that.

Em: It is so fun to just play speculating though. Like it’s–

Christine: I mean, it’s all– This is all made up, guys. I’m telling you. I promise.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: But like it’s fascinating. Like ’cause, again, we don’t know anything by someone’s– just their Sun sign. But like it is an interesting pattern.

Em: It’s certainly a cool study to be like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –“Oh, fun fact. Did you know a lot of people happen to be like this? I wonder why,” or like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And it could even be– I mean, I’m absolutely just bullshitting off the dome here, but it could be environmental. Like if you’re born in June that’s because, you know, you’re–

Christine: Well, I was gonna say–

Em: I don’t fucking know.

Christine: –what if we added head injuries or the, the tri– the homicidal triad, right?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like what if we added that into the mix? That could completely change everything. Like who had a head injury?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Frontal lobe injury? Um–

Em: Or you could even do like, like, um, how many of them– what are– Maybe it’s that they’re all Geminis, but what are all their relationships with their parents or like–

Christine: Oh god, yeah.

Em: –what are their relationships with their siblings? Or, um–

Christine: “All their moms were Aries. Uh-oh, we’re both screwed.” [chuckles]

Em: I mean, it could even be like because– Like it could be like a butterfly effect thing. Like because they’re Geminis, they s– learned at school this way, and like it– just like a ripple effect, they ended up turning out this way because they were Geminis and that affected their behavior in some way. Like–

Christine: Right.

Em: –that, that could be also super interesting.

Christine: So it’s– I mean, it’s far– Exactly. So it’s like far too simplistic, of course, to look at it just as the bare facts–

Em: Right.

Christine: –or, or to mean much more than like just a fun talking point. But it is also– You’re right. Like you could go down so many rabbit holes. You could do, um– Yeah. Why– Right. Because I mean, if you read– Did you read that book? Um– Oh my god. Whatever that Malcolm Gladwell thing we all had to read where it was like–

Em: Oh, Blink?

Christine: Maybe it was Blink, but it was the one with 10,000 hours or whatever where it’s like– [chuckles]

Em: Oh, 10,000– It was like his fourth book or something, I think.

Christine: It was one of them. And he like talks about like, “Oh, well–“ I think it was him who talks about like, oh, the hockey teams in Canada, it’s like it ended up being more important when what month you were born in because if you were older you were automatically, or at least typically, bigger, and so you’re more likely to make it on the hockey team earlier–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –at s– in elementary school, like in whenever–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –when they start in like second grade, and then you know– and then by the time you’re at like a professional level, it’s– people are like, “Why are all of them born in September?” Or whatever the month was–

Em: Right.

Christine: –like October. And it’s like, oh, it just happens to be the cut-off for the–

Em: Right.

Christine: –for the age–

Em: Like correlation is not causation or something.

Christine: Yes. Exactly, exactly. So there’s– That’s beautifully put, Em. Yes. Science has already given us the terminology for it. Thank you.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: It’s really well done.

Em: Or what’s it– It’s always like, well, more– It’s like when there are more serial k– I’m, I’m butchering it, but one of the examples that like I always learned in my psych classes was like, um, more people get murdered– when more people get murdered, there– like ice cream sales go up, and it was like, “Well, it’s just because both things are happening in the summer when people are outside, and it’s hot–”

Christine: Right, right, right. More people are getting killed.

Em: Like it’s like there could be a totally different third factor–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –you’re not paying attention to.

Christine: And there probably is, yeah. [chuckles]

Em: There probably– I would–

Christine: Or a million.

Em: I would bet some money there is.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: But that’s so cool.

Christine: And that’s why– I know. It's so interesting, and like even just to get to know people based on like little things and connect with them on. And even when people don’t necessarily believe in astrology, I think it’s interesting that like people will still know things about themselves. Like they’ll say, “Oh, like I– I think my Moon is this–“ you know. I– Like it’s still interesting on some human level, I think, um, to have like those categories.

Em: I, I did hear someone once say that Geminis are really interested in astrology purely because, since we’re yappers, it gives us an op– a small– a– It gives us a talking point for people.

Christine: Oh, interesting.

Em: So it’s almost like, like the stereotype could be, “Oh, Geminis love astrology.” It’s like, no, we just love to have like a, a conversation piece in our po– back pocket if we need it.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: It’s like, it’s like things like that. So I–

Christine: It’s–

Em: This– I’m fucking eating this up.

Christine: Yeah, it’s like one more hobby or interest that we can like flip over to and like–

Em: It’s just– It’s nice–

Christine: –learn a little bit about. [chuckles]

Em: If I go to a party and I don’t know people–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –I can at the very least be like, “Oh, here’s– This is what our signs are.” Like it’s just something nice to have.

Christine: You know what’s interesting is my, um, my trainer, she was like, “Well, do you do– Do you know your human design?” And I was like, “Okay, now this is–“

Em: That’s a new thing to fall in love with.

Christine: Yeah. Do you know your human design?

Em: No, I don’t even know what the fuck you’re talking about.

Christine: Oh, really? Well, it was all the rage when I was in Egypt. Everybody– We had people on the bus who were like kind of experts on it, and I was just like learning. Um, look up human design. I am a Projector.

Em: [googling] What is my human design?

Christine: Uh–

Em: [googling] Human design test.

Christine: And it gets really wild, like in depth, if you need another like fixation. Um–

Em: Oh god, there’s 17 questions to this. Oh god.

Christine: Oh. Well, you’re so supposed to just put in your birth date and time.

Em: Oh, okay, okay.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “Get your human design chart.” Oh, here we go.

Christine: Yeah–

Em: Um–

Christine: –I’m, I’m curious ’cause I’m a Projector, which I don’t necessarily know what that means yet. I’m, uh, learning.

Em: Well, look, look it up while I’m doing this.

Christine: Okay. Well.

Em:, um, ’cause I wanna, I wanna see if we– what our vibes are. Um–

Christine: Okay, here’s mine. Let’s see. And then there are different like aspects to it. So you have– Um, so my energy type is Projector. This is how your energy functions. You’re– I have– I best make decisions emotional intuition.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Uh, my profile type is the Easy Breezy Genius.

Em: Damn. Okay, that’s nice. Mine–

Christine: How do I a–

Em: Okay, I–

Christine: What’s yours?

Em: I just got mine. Mine is, um, Manifesting Ge-Generator.

Christine: Okay. Yes, I think that’s– Yes, I know that one.

Em: My Strategy is To Respond. My Inner Authority is Emotional. Um, I don’t really know what I’m looking at here. My, my di– [chuckles] My Digestion is Closed. Oh my god.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I–

Christine: Oh no.

Em: I, I have a– My motivation is fear.

Christine: Oh [laughs] god.

Em: My environment is Mountains. Now, that one I can confirm.

Christine: I love that for you.

Em: I, I don’t know– Perspective is Wanting. I don’t know if I’m– any of this makes sense to you, but anyway, apparently–

Christine: Uh, it doesn’t to me–

Em: –Manifesting Generator.

Christine: I bet by next week I’ll be fascinated and like– You know, it’s interesting. I just pulled up the app, and I guess I had downloaded it before because I have Blaise’s in here.

Em: Oh, really?

Christine: I don’t remember putting– I don’t remember putting his in, but he’s a Generator with Sacral Authority, and his–

Em: Oh?

Christine: –profile type is the Great Life Experimenter.

Em: Well, that’s very, uh–

Christine: It’s intense.

Em: It’s intense. I just looked up “human design Manifestor and Projector relationship.”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “Thrives on a push-pull dynamic where the Manifestor initiates and the Projector guides.”

Christine: Ohh.

Em: I don’t know–

Christine: Yeah, that makes sense.

Em: “The Manifestor brings energy to create while the Projector offers wisdom to streamline it.” I mean, that’s literally how this podcast started.

Christine: So that’s kind of exactly right. Yeah, that’s– And that’s what my trainer said, too. She’s like, “Oh, Projectors take like the energy and like almost guide it or like help shine it on other– help shine light on other people to help them understand their own–“

Em: Mm.

Christine: It's, it’s reflective a little bit, I think. Um, so that’s–

Em: Interesting. Interesting.

Christine: Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m intrigued by this because, um– because. You know why. I’m– 'Cause I am.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: But, uh, I just find it really interesting. And then she said that, and I went, “Okay, see you Tuesday, and I’ll be back with like–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and she’s gonna hit, “I hate fun.” And I’m gonna be like, “But I have so much to say.” [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Oh, you should, you should– Well, there’s no way to like build your own button. I guess you could just draw one, but you should just tape it next to hers, and it says, “I don’t care. I like fun.” [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles] “I’m a Gemini.”

Em: Dang. Yeah.

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah. And then she’s like, “Oh g–“ She was like, “You’ll like Mary Anne or whatever. Like–“ We– 'Cause there– Sometimes there’s two people in the studio at the same time. She’s like, “You’ll like Mary Anne. She’s all into astrology,” and I was like, [chuckles] “Okay, Mary Anne.”

Em: [chuckles] “Mary Anne and I are gonna talk about you, by the way.”

Christine: “We’re gonna bitch about you.”

Em: [sighs]

Christine: [sighs] Anyway.

Em: Well, very cool.

Christine: It’s very fun. Um, I wonder if I can like add people to this. See, like this is when I get unhinged. This is the most Gemini and Projector behavior to add everybody into my app and like then look at their charts and be like–

Em: Oh?

Christine: –“Here’s how you all get along.” Like I don’t know.

Em: I mean, I would do that. Why not?

Christine: You would do that too?

Em: Of course.

Christine: It’s so fun. Um, I don’t know half the shit is happening on this app. I feel very confused by its existence.

Em: It’s just a new language to learn.

Christine: I know, right? And it has like this fancy chart, of course. Oh, I need a subscription. Well, in that–

Em: Oh, good. Good, good, good, good, good.

Christine: –in that case, um, interesting. Yeah. And especially like– I’ve been doing, um, Reiki training–

Em: Yes. How is that going?

Christine: –being trained. It’s great, but it’s like fascinating because I think I really didn’t know if it was real.

Em: And?

Christine: It's real.

Em: Really?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: How so? What– Like what was the moment for you?

Christine: It’s almost like I knew it was real, but I didn’t like know it was real. Do you know what I mean?

Em: Sure. When di– What– When did you know? When were you like, “Ooh, this, this is different.”

Christine: When I laid down, she’s like, “I’m gonna attune you,” and I was like, “Oh, the Virgin Mary’s here. That’s cool.”

Em: Huh?

Christine: And then my grandma showed up. I mean, it was like really crazy. And then I had this, uh, flashback memory of choosing my life. It was like– I mean, I’m not kidding. It’s been–

Em: What the fuck? [chuckles] That’s crazy.

Christine: I mean, this shit is crazy. And then I got home, and I went, “Um, so, Blaise, I’m having sort of like a, like a, hm, existential crisis, um, you know, about everything ’cause I just sort of had my world kind of flipped upside down.” Um, and I was attuned, or I guess it depends on the, the word you use, reiju, reiju, I think. Um, and it’s like– You can like feel it.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like I was doing–

Em: How–

Christine: Like I was doing– I had this stomachache, and I was like, “Oh my god, I can like feel energy–”

Em: Like– Is it like essentially–

Christine: “–coming out of my hands.”

Em: –like you can feel like a– Like if your stomach hurt, does that mean like a, like a stomach chakra isn’t aligned or something?

Christine: No, I just like had a tummyache. So I was like, “Oh, I’ll try to like lay my hands on it and just like intend to do Reiki,” and it was like, “Oh, I can like feel like my hands tingling and like–“

Em: Weird.

Christine: You know? I put it on my head, and at one point, I was doing this, and I like put my hands on my face, and I just like– Tears were like pouring down, and I was like, “I do not know what’s happening. Like I don’t feel sad.”

Em: Wow.

Christine: “I’m just having like huge emotions.” It’s trippy, dude. And so–

Em: And, and it feels different than just like mind over matter? Like just like–

Christine: Yes.

Em: Hm, weird.

Christine: Yes. It’s– And because–

Em: Who's teaching you? Who– Sorry, I’m asking too many questions. Sorry.

Christine: No, no, no. I– Thank you for asking. Her name’s Maria.

Em: Maria. You got a lot of trainers left and right on all this and your breathing and your–

Christine: Em, I don’t know what is happening. It’s like I turned, uh– Well, I haven’t talked about this on the podcast. Happy birthday to us. I’m gonna just completely derail now and say–

Em: S– I mean, I, I, I think we’re– Yes, go for it.

Christine: Okay. I’m gonna say an announcement, which, um, I wasn’t even sure if I would ever come up on the podcast, and now I’m gonna say it, and now I have to find my right app to make sure I get the statistics correct. Hold on, please, one moment. [laughs]

Em: I’m, I’m, I’m ready.

Christine: Are you sat? [laughs]

Em: I’m s– I’m literally– I’m on a bench.

Christine: Do you remember when– Hey, I watch a lot of snark channels. Do you remember when Mikayla Nogueira was like, “You’re gonna wanna sit down for this?” when she announced her own divorce? And everyone was like, “Fucking–“

Em: [chuckles] Are you about to announce your own divorce?

Christine: Can you imagine? No. Oh my god. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Remember when I accidentally almost make people think I’m divorced like every five minutes?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: 'Cause like I never wear a wedding ring, and neither does Blaise, and I’m like, “I don’t know. I just don’t wear one.”

Em: I never noticed actually. You don’t wear a wedding ring? I never noticed in my entire life.

Christine: Well, I do usually, but like I’ll take it off for a shower–

Em: Oh, yeah.

Christine: –and then I’ll like forget. And it’s like kind of small on me, and then I like don’t wanna wear it, and then people are like, “Why aren’t you wearing a wedding ring?” I mean, it’s mostly like my mother, and I’m like, “I don’t know. I just don’t.”

Em: [chuckles] It’s like, “We have a baby in the house and many animals. That count?”

Christine: Literally. Like, “I just kissed him on the mouth. What more do you want as proof of my love?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Okay. Um, anyway. Well, apparently, I lost the app, which– You know what? I guess that is enough to say, uh, what I’m trying to say, which is that I actually have quit drinking alcohol.

Em: Really?

Christine: Surprise! Yeah. Um, yes. And today–

Em: Cool. When?

Christine: Uh, well, that’s what I’m trying to find. [chuckles]

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: Is my app that tells me– Oh, here it is. Days since: 82 days.

Em: Holy shit. What are you gonna do for day 100?

Christine: [sighs] I don’t know.

Em: You gotta do something.

Christine: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I never thought I’d make it this far.

Em: Is it, is it just to see if you can? Or is this like a, like a, like what’s the–

Christine: I’m out. I’m out.

Em: Wow.

Christine: I’m out. It happened very suddenly. It was not planned. [chuckles] It sounds like I’m pregnant. I’m not. Um, it sounds like I’m divorced. I’m not. Um, I–

Em: You just decided one day like, “Oh, I’m just so over it”? Or what– Or do you–

Christine: It’s–

Em: You don’t have to talk about it. You don’t– If you don’t want to.

Christine: It’s so weird that we’re talking about this because it was the night of the eclipse.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Okay. I mean, cool. Sorry, sorry. It’s just like wha– I, I don’t know why I’d even look like that. I’m– “Where are we going?” is what I’m thinking.

Christine: And I thought to myself, “I can tell there is something I need to let go of,” and I cannot figure out what it was. I was having like weird dreams, and I was like, “Something’s up.” And I’m sitting there drinking wine, right?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And I’m like, “Well, this certainly– This is not it, [chuckles] but something, something must go.” And so I was getting so frustrated that at one point I was like really trying to like let go and surrender and just be like, “Okay, take the wheel, God, whatever.” And, um, I’m sitting there, and I was like, “Okay, it’s the eclipse. So tonight I’ll do a little ritual.” And I said to the universe, to the world, “I give up. You take over. I can’t figure out what you want me to do, what you want me to let go of. Handing the reins to you. Figure it out.” That night, I woke up with what I thought was the flu. It was alcohol withdrawals. I was–

Em: What?

Christine: –vomiting. I had a fever. I was sick for like two or three days. And it finally occurred to me, like–

Em: How much did you drink the night before?

Christine: I mean, the same amount I had always drank, which was far too much.

Em: Oh.

Christine: And it was like– I don’t know what happened. It was almost like I got like pushed into this, and maybe I did have like a type of flu, but then because– or if because I wasn’t drinking–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –I had a reaction, you know. But I had these like nightmares of my maternal line and my paternal line, like all the way back, drinking alcohol. It was bizarre. Like my stepmo–

Em: Wow.

Christine: I mean, just like all these things happening at once, like these weird flashbacks, and I was having literal fever dreams and like sweating through all the sheets. I mean, it’s disgusting. I went through like full-on withdrawals, and then at the end of like two days when I was like finally like waking up from this, I was like, “Okay, I get it. Like I get it.”

Em: Wow.

Christine: It was like I just woke up and was like, “Fine.” And, um, it was so weird ’cause I had already had in place like – [chuckles] this is very Aquarius of me – like very mentally had already planned behind the scenes of my brain like all the sort of things I was gonna– Like I knew the creator on TikTok I was gonna DM real quick to be like, “Hey, I remember like you posting about quitting drinking, and like I just wanna touch ba–“ You know, just like little things where I was like, “Oh, I can go back to her content and see– like remind myself of like the tips that she had posted,” you know, and I like texted Blaise and said, “Just get rid of all the alcohol, no questions asked,” you know.

Em: Wow.

Christine: And I don’t know. It just suddenly happened very, uh, aggressively. And I guess, um, I– Whether it was just a coincidence or not, I said like, “I give up. I can’t figure it out.” And the– I said, “Just take the wheel,” and it fucking did. And it sent my life into quite a spiral, um, in a good way, bad way, all the ways. Um, I think it’s like the– I pulled the Tower card like three days in a row during that, and I was like, “Oh, shit. Like everything’s just falling apart.” Um–

Em: Wow. Oh my gosh. Well–

Christine: In like a good way. It’s like y–

Em: How do you feel?

Christine: [sighs] Well, my Crohn’s went crazy. I got like really sick. It was like my hormones were out of– Because I’d been drinking so much for so long that it just got to a point where I was like–

Em: You were like at a new normal.

Christine: –“Oh, my body is not–“ Yeah.

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christine: Like my body was like, “What’s happening? Like you’ve put us into shock.” Um–

Em: Wow.

Christine: –and it was, it was just very, uh, bizarre. And like I always knew that one day I would stop drinking. I just didn’t know when. And I was like, “I’m not gonna do it ’til I’m ready.” And like I knew no one else could tell me to do it. So it was sort of like–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –I had to make a call. And I remember thinking I have to– Like now or never, basically. Like it’s– It– I just have to do it. And, um, yeah, it was– I initially said, “I’ll just try it out,” but I think like pretty immediately was like, “Okay, I know that I had to do that.” Um, I have been reliant on THC, especially for sleep, so you know, I’m not like stone cold sober. Um, and I still have, uh, you know, I still have a good time at, at weddings and stuff, but like– The drinking, man, I think it was just star– And I’m getting old, you know. I was just starting to– And I don’t want anyone to feel discouraged because like when I would hear people talk about get– like quitting drinking, it like really triggered me ba– like when I was drinking a lot–

Em: Oh, really?

Christine: –and so I don’t wanna trigger– Yeah. Because it was like–

Em: Oh, wow.

Christine: –“I should– I know I should be doing that, but like–“

Em: Oh?

Christine: –you know, you kind of like get this like [groans].

Em: I had no idea. Wow.

Christine: There’s something validating about other people drinking, right? 'Cause it’s like okay, especially people you follow. Like if you’re drinking and you don’t feel necessarily– At least for me. I didn’t necessarily feel comfortable with my drinking, but I was like comforted by watching other people drink and being like, “It’s normal like to be a mom who drink–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: You know? And there were all these things where I would like just normalize it in my own head to kind of avoid looking at it closer. And then, um– So I don’t want anyone to feel like that because it– I– at least for me, I was like, “It’s only gonna happen when I’m ready,” and I guess I was ready. I didn’t think I was ready, but my body was like, “We’re done.”

Em: Wow. That’s awesome.

Christine: It was crazy. And ever since then, I mean, I started watercoloring. I do fucking qigong. That was the week I started q– Like I started all these things to be like–

Em: To distract yourself? Or–

Christine: Yeah, a little bit. Or just– It was almost like I– Like this fog kind of lifted, and I was like, “Oh, I’m finding dopamine elsewhere.” Like I think I had–

Em: Nice.

Christine: –just dulled so much of my own self that like I didn’t realize what was fun anymore, and it was like relearning. Like I didn’t have an appeti– I still don’t have an appetite, and like I can only eat like crackers. Like it’s so weird.

Em: Really?

Christine: It’s like everything has been topsy-turvy.

Em: Weird.

Christine: And I haven’t really talked about it on the podcast just ’cause it’s like we’ve–

Em: Well, it’s personal.

Christine: Well, it’s personal, and we talk– And we usually record during the day and– like early day anyway. So it’s like–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –you know, it just didn’t seem like– It didn’t, it didn’t come up. But, um– And I also wanted to like know that it was official before I like said anything, you know.

Em: Well, I was gonna say, does this make you feel nervous that like this is gonna–

Christine: No.

Em: I mean, do you– Um, uh, tell if I’m being insensitive.

Christine: No, ask away. I’m bringing–

Em: But do you–

Christine: No, I’m bringing it to the table–

Em: Do you–

Christine: –as an open subject.

Em: Do you miss it at all?

Christine: What– That’s a great question. At first, like horribly. And it was sort of like there was a lot of grief–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –because it was like, oh, I just don’t get to be that person that like walks up to Jerry’s Jug House, like our local bar, and grab a beer, you know?

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like it’s just like there’re little things that like– Not that I ever really did that, but there– You tell yourself these stories or you have these like ideas in your head of like, “Oh, one day I’ll go to like Spain and drink real Spanish wine.” And it’s like–

Em: Right.

Christine: –you know, part of me is like, “You can still do that. Like nobody’s making you not do that, you know.”

Em: Right.

Christine: Like, “You can still do that, and it’s not the end of the world.” but also we’ll get there when we get there, like one day at a time, you know? [chuckles]

Em: Yeah, yeah. No, I, uh–

Christine: And it’s been a big learning curve. Yeah.

Em: I mean, I could also see it like– It’s certainly a grief– I mean, you’re losing your, your current– or was your current identity. I mean, you have to like–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –relearn what’s fun to–

Christine: Yeah. It–

Em: –or what’s fun about you or what you like doing outside of that.

Christine: It’s amazing. I don’t like going to bars anymore. Isn’t that shocking?

Em: Really?

Christine: [scoffs] Not. That’s like the least shocking thing ever that people don’t like going to bars when they quit dr– Obviously, like– You must be so bored at a bar, Em.

Em: I, I– I’m used to people wanting to go–

Christine: You’re used to it now.

Em: –so I just go.

Christine: Yeah. Ugh, god.

Em: But I, I mean, I’m not, I’m not having the fun they’re having. No.

Christine: Yeah. It’s sort of like you really have to get to a point where you’re like, “Am I having fun? No.” It was a– more of a– It became way more of a– And you know, I had to kind of like come clean to Blaise. Like I was like, “I’m d– I was drinking more than I intended to.” I realized there was like so much shame around it. Also, when I quit drinking, I didn’t realize how much space it took up in my brain, like actual active thinking.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Because it would be like, “Oh, well, when can I drive?” And like I’d be calculating hours, and like, “Oh, what time would that end? And then I’ll come home and have a beer.” Like it just was like constantly in the back of my head. And um, you know, some people can have a healthy relationship with alcohol. I think I’m just not that person.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Or maybe I– You know, maybe I thought I was, maybe I can and I just am choosing not to any– try anymore. But it was taking up a lot of brain space. Um, and a lot of it was like– Like I– One of the earliest things that really convinced me like, “Oh, this is the best possible thing,” is that Leona and I were doing bedtime one night and she fell and like just scraped her knee or hit her head or– something like minor.

Em: Right. Like just, “Oop! You fell.”

Christine: It was just like a bonk, yeah. And like the sh– like the immediate shame and fear that took over, and then I went, “What is that?” And then I went, “Oh my god. Normally I’d be drinking, and I would have thought to myself, ‘Shit, was I not paying attention?’”

Em: Mm.

Christine: “’Was I like, you know, too buzzed to like be looking?’” And it’s like, “No, I was completely, completely sober. She fell. She scraped her knee.” And I was like, “Wow.” So I’m carrying like so much weird, personalized, like internalized shit. And then she got up and played, and I was like, “I would have been sitting here like s– ‘Oh my god, like am I–‘” It’s almost like I just peeled off this like very toxic layer off my life–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –that, um, was fun and had its time but now is like just doing more harm than good. Um–

Em: Wow. Well, I mean–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –you do realize how many people you’ve probably just helped by talking about it?

Christine: I, I mean, I, I want to at least be open about it ’cause it’s fucking horrible. [laughs] It–

Em: I think you’re about to accidentally get an influx of messages.

Christine: –it’s so hard. It’s so hard. It’s so hard. And like I’ve, I’ve not been like super vocal about it. Like I post– I’ve been posting more on Instagram. I’m really trying to like get a feel for– this is like kind of corny, but like a feel for myself back, and I think that’s why like all these random like jiu-jitsu and things– I did not plan any of this, and I didn’t– It all happened so fast. It was almost like I pulled one like Jenga piece and everything kind of like collapsed but like rebuilt very quickly.

Em: Mm.

Christine: It was like I pulled that piece out and suddenly I’m like seeing a trainer for like diaphragmatic breathing, which is like completely changing my anxiety levels, and I’m like going to jiu-jitsu with Blaise and Leona every other day, like just for fun, because he said, “Why not?” Like I don’t know. A lot of things have just opened up that I think I needed to let that go. And I got to a point where I knew I needed to let go, but I was holding on so tight that I was like– I basically told the universe like, “Fucking do it. You have to do it for me.” And it felt like it got pried out of me, I’ll tell you what.

Em: Hm.

Christine: It felt like it got pried out of me. But like now that it’s gone, I’m like, “Okay, I feel better.” So if you’re out there and you’re struggling, um, me too, and also a lot of us too, and also don’t feel ashamed if you need like– I mean, s– I’m not a doctor, but uh, you know, I’ve used THC regularly to help, uh, at least get through this period, and, you know, eventually that’s– might be something I hopefully look closer at as well. But at this point it’s sort of like, “Let me get through this chapter of it.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, and yeah, so don’t feel, you know, ashamed, but yeah, feel free to DM me if you, if you want to. Um, and again, I don’t want anyone to feel like discouraged or whatever. I don’t know. It’s like– It’s also hard ’cause it’s like nine years of my literal [chuckles] like job identity too, you know?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And so I was like–

Em: So what you’re saying is you’re Team Milkshake now.

Christine: Sure. Ahh!

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] That’s crazy. I’ll be– How about I– I– We finally have a pothead on the show. How about that?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’ll become the, the loyal stoner.

Em: “And That’s Why We Don’t Drink.”

Christine: Yeah. I– Yeah.

Em: “And That’s Why We Smoke.” [laughs]

Christine: Yeah. And I just– I don’t know. There’s just something ve-very– that has naturally very much like opened up in, um, in like the– in my intr– like in finding joy other places, you know, and having kind of more openness and [sighs] feeling more, uh, in my body, so. Yeah. Anyway, I, I felt, uh, like that was either gonna come up sometime or not. And I said, “You know what? Well, if it comes up, it comes up,” and we said–

Em: It’s your journey. Yeah.

Christine: –“Hey, uh, let’s talk about astrology,” and here I go, um–

Em: Oh my gosh.

Christine: –totally derailing. But anyway, so that’s, that’s my update. Um, I post more about it on Instagram because I’m just trying to keep that more my, you know, personal life. But, um, I don’t know. I feel like I’m kind of coming out from under a rock, you know.

Em: Not a bruise.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I mean–

Christine: A huge bruise. That is wh– also part of why I’m a walking bruise ’cause it is so much easier to just numb yourself out, dude. It is so much easier.

Em: I believe it.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and I don’t think I would have ever been able to climb out of that, which is why I avoided it. I, I, I know I would not– I, I– The struggle would be very tough, so–

Christine: That’s, that’s–

Em: I am– I’m very proud of you. And also selfishly, this–

Christine: Oh, thank you.

Em: –this works out really well for me because now you and I could literally finally go drink together because you, you– we would have mocktails together.

Christine: It’s, it’s, it’s sh– It’s shocking.

Em: I can finally give someone my recipes.

Christine: It’s shocking because I’m like, I’ve never understood your plight until now.

Em: [laughs] My plight, yeah.

Christine: It’s like I’ve never really understood.

Em: Everything you just said? No, no, no, my plight. No. Um–

Christine: No, no, no. But it’s true. Like I’m like OMG. But I will say I waited long enough that there are some very good non-alcoholic beers. I never thought I would be a non-alcoholic beer person, but there’s something at like that certain time when it’s like kind of hot out and I’m like, “I’m thirsty, and I want a beer,” and it’s like s– it– I think my brai– Our brains are just dumb. They’re dumb animal brains, right?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So like you really can– Oh, and there’s an app called Reframe that i– that I will also recommend highly. It’s not an ad, but Reframe app has like completely helped me, um, look at the science of drinking. And I think that was what really– I knew whenever, I knew whenever the day came that I quit drinking that I would need to look at the evidence to really convince myself like, “Oh, shit.” 'Cause I knew it was there, but I was like, “I’m not gonna look at it–”

Em: No, no.

Christine: “–if I’m actively drinking.”

Em: The, the mirror is the hardest part to look at.

Christine: Yeah, exactly.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It was the mirror. It was a mirror. And the universe was like, “Here’s a giant mirror. A fun house one.”

Em: Well, I mean, truly next time you need a fun little drink and you, uh– an FLD and you don’t know what to do, I literally have 30– now–

Christine: You’ve– You wrote the book.

Em: –as of this week, 34 years of experience of all the fun things I could pass along to you.

Christine: As of this week. I’m so proud of you–

Em: [chuckles] You can–

Christine: –and I’m proud of us.

Em: The “raslems” are gonna be incredible. You’re gonna–

Christine: The raslems. Yeah, I’ve, I’ve gotten into, uh, some, some matcha. Remember when I was drinking matcha–

Em: Oh, yeah.

Christine: –and I’m like, “I don’t know. This is all new to me.” Like I’m literally– I feel like I’m– feel like I’m kind of a kid again. Like I’m like experiencing things for the first time. [chuckles]

Em: Literally, like I– It’s the only, it’s the only way I can, um, relate to this personally, but like the amount of mixing of juices you’re about to do is gonna blow your fucking mind. [laughs]

Christine: Oh! Listen, I can’t wait. And I think Leona is like on board for the ride. [laughs]

Em: Yeah. You and Leona can do like kiddy drinking together. Um–

Christine: Yeah. We– Like tea parties galore. Yeah.

Em: What– When– Well, summer’s right around the corner in Trader Joe’s. Do you have a Trader Joe’s near you?

Christine: I do.

Em: I’ll send you some stuff because there’s, um–

Christine: Ahh! I would love that.

Em: There’s one that it– it’s my favorite drink, but it’s like seasonal stuff that only Trader Joe’s sells. So when it happens–

Christine: Oh, I love that. It’s a big deal.

Em: –we’ll have to make it together on the show.

Christine: Yes, that would be fun. Oh, we do– Aw.

Em: We could do like “and that’s why we drink,” and actually do like mocktail recommendations back and f– and finally, I can tell you–

Christine: I know. I know. Tell me–

Em: Finally, you can suggest drinks to me and I can tell you um, “As the expert here–“

Christine: Tell me the way–

Em: “–you’re not gonna wanna have that one.”

Christine: Tell me how to do it.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Tell me how to live, you know.

Em: Sorry, that’s not, that’s not what I mean by it, but–

Christine: No, tell me how to live my life.

Em: Finally, we can, uh, relate a li– a little differently, right? Can at least, um–

Christine: I’m t– I’m getting it though ’cause like I’m understa– I’m like, “Oh, it is fun to just go try something and take a class and learn something.” Like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –I don’t know. I just feel like I’ve gotten a renewed, um, appreciation, but also like a lot of things have been like upheaval, you know? Like it’s almost like also I cut that out and it’s like, oh, now everything’s different in my family. Not everything’s different, but like I relate to life differently. I relate to–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –family dinner differently. I relate to birthdays and events– It’s just all–

Em: Well, your, your whole life is– You have to, you have– You’re rewriting–

Christine: Yes, it feels–

Em: –how you operate under every circumstance.

Christine: Right. It feels like I’ve just been–

Em: That's tough.

Christine: –like kind of re-assembled. Um, and so it’s very kind of maddening but also exciting. So I’ve been posting a lot, but sometimes I’m like, “Am I like–“ I’ll like post something where I’m like, “This is fucking hilarious, and it’s so me,” and then I’ll share it. And like a few hours later, I’m like, “What does this even mean? Like what am I doing?” I don’t know. I feel like I’m just kind of like experimenting with things–

Em: Good.

Christine: –so it’s kinda fun. Yeah. It’s like fun, and, and, and I had resigned myself– I told myself, “I– There, there is no way in hell I’m gonna ever quit drinking.” I was like, “There’s no way. It’s just like not possible.” And I remember thinking– There was a point in my life– This is so dark. I’m sorry, but– This is probably when my Taurus, uh–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –trainer was like, “You gotta say that in therapy, please, not here.”

Em: [chuckles] I like how this is therapy.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I mean, whatever.

Christine: This is, okay? It’s our birthday. Um, no. I think, I think the thing that really struck me afterward was like I remember being in the kitchen being like, “Well, this is a generational pattern that like Leona is gonna have to break, not me.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: “Like I can’t do it.” And I was like, “Unfortunately–“

Em: I don’t think you’re alone in having thought something like that.

Christine: It’s, it’s really scary, and like it’s, it’s one of those things where like afterward it’s like, “Oh, I just like wanna hug myself,” but at the time I was like, oh my god, I was like beating myself up and being so cruel. And I think like just be gentle with yourself, even if you are feeling like you’re doing everything wrong. It’s, it’s hard. It’s so hard to be a human, okay? Um–

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: –it’s, it’s hard to not rely on, um–

Em: Especially when the system is against you. I mean, it’s like–

Christine: Totally. And they want you to be drinking and doing– You know, they want– It’s like– I mean, “they,” you know, but like it’s just easier to numb out, right? Like it is. And, um–

Em: It– Absolutely. Especially when like it’s so glamorized that–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –this is the way to cope–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –and this is the way to be social and if you don’t do– I mean, there’s a, there’s a very big reason. There’s many reasons, but one of the reasons why a lot of people don’t quit is because they’re like, “Well, then what else is there?” And–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Which it feels dark, but I mean, it’s like–

Christine: No, that’s what I always thought. I was like, “What’s the point even? Like what is it?”

Em: Yeah, it’s like, “I– This is how I operate in this situation, this situation, this situation.” And it’s a big ask to take someone’s plaything away–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: –and completely reinvent themselves.

Christine: Totally.

Em: It’s tough, I would bet.

Christine: And it’s like, and it’s like, “For why? For what?” And like that was always my thing. And so when it like kind of happened, I was like, “I need to know for why, for what.” And I feel like that app especially was so helpful because every day, it would be like– Well, it knows your dopamine’s low, so it’s like fucking ready to like hit you wherever or help you wherever you need like to like deal with that. But then it also is so helpful because it’ll be like, “Hey, it’s been five days, and this means like the inflammation is down by this much”–

Em: Cool.

Christine: –or like– you know, so it’s very like cerebral, which I appreciate, and kind of like shows you the literal physical evidence of like, “Hey, your sleep is better. Your–“ You know, my Oura Ring is like, “Wow! What’s happening?” and I’m like, “Shut up.”

Em: Yeah, yeah.

Christine: “Shut up. I know,” you know, and it’s– But it took a long time, and sometimes you just gotta wait it out for your nervous system to be ready. But like, damn.

Em: No, it’s a–

Christine: It’s a journey.

Em: –it’s your journey. I mean, I’m just– That– I’m sure people are super happy that you’re talking about it.

Christine: I, I hope so. And like, if you’re out there and you’re like, “I couldn’t do that,” well, I couldn’t either, so [chuckles] I don’t know, man. I mean, if I can do it, you could do it, believe it me or not–

Em: I mean–

Christine: –believe it or not.

Em: –no pressure. I– It’s– Somebody has probably taken everything you just said as like a sign or, or–

Christine: I–

Em: I mean, who knows?

Christine: You know what’s so funny is the day I quit drinking I was like, “I want signs every fucking five seconds.” I would open my thing, and it was like, “How to stop–“ and I was like, “Fine!”

Em: I– It’s like, “I need a different sign. I need a different sign. I need a different sign.”

Christine: It’s like, “Well, that’s not specific enough,” and it’s like, “Here’s a sign from your guardian angel that you should stop drinking,” and I’m like,”Mm, it still doesn’t quite do it for me.” [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like really specific.

Em: It’s like, “That’s not direct enough,” yeah.

Christine: But, yeah.

Em: Well, uh, when is your 100th day then?

Christine: I have no idea. It was almost like–

Em: Well, today is what? 82?

Christine: 82. I was so like counting every minute for a while, and then it sort of just–

Em: That’s gonna be a good sign of growth that like now you’re not looking at the time.

Christine: Yeah, I couldn’t even find the, find the app at first which was kind of shocking. Um, but yeah, so I guess I have 18 more days, and then it’ll be 100.

Em: How are you gonna celebrate? Go drinking?

Christine: [chuckles] Get wasted, yeah.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Oh, jeez. Yeah. Um, you know, maybe. No.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: You never know. Uh–

Em: “A juice box.” [chuckles]

Christine: Juice boxes. Get high on life, you know.

Em: Yeah.

Christine:, um, get high on the marijuana. I don’t know. There’s a–

Em: Well, go do something. I mean, there’s a– Look, because the world is ass, even if you like– you’re like, “Oh, I’m in such a good place. I don’t really feel like I need to celebrate,” that aside, it’s like anytime that this shithole world gives you a reason–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –to like just be whimsical, like just take it.

Christine: Oh, I love it.

Em: Just take it.

Christine: I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna plan my 100th. I’ve gotten myself a lot of, um, treats–

Em: Good.

Christine: –because it’s just been very healing to be like– But then it’s also like, “Oh, I lost my yoga mat years ago, and I was too embarrassed to like go get it back from the p– yoga studio, so like I’ll go to yoga this week,” and after two weeks, I bought myself a new yoga mat. You know, like I’ve been very– So it’s– If it sounds so corny ’cause it’s like–

Em: No, it doesn’t.

Christine: –I didn’t do any of it on purpose (really, I didn’t. It sounds like I did), but I also wanna say like if you feel like so stuck, literally ask the universe. Be prepared to get fucking thrown on your ass, but like they’ll– it’ll pick you back up.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: You know–

Em: No, the, the– world adapts with you, so.

Christine: Yeah, it’ll kick your ass, but it’ll help you up. [chuckles] Um, but so yeah, if you ever need, uh– Yeah, feel free to reach out on, on Instagram or– That’s usually– I mean, I still have a hard time finding– re– [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –responding, but you can tr–

Em: Reach out and maybe you’ll get a response back. [chuckles]

Christine: You never know. [chuckles] Um, maybe one day when I’m feeling whimsical, so.

Em: Well, I’ll– I– Speaking for everybody–

Christine: Well, anyway.

Em: –we’re all very proud of you. I know that’s not what you’re–

Christine: Thank you.

Em: Dare I feel like I’m placating you, but– [chuckles]

Christine: No, you’re not placating me. No, no, I– No, I believe you. I don’t, I don’t feel that way. I, I mean, when people are placating me–

Em: I know.

Christine: –then I’m like, “Don’t placate me,” but I know you’re not placating me. Um–

Em: But no, we’re all very proud of you. I–

Christine: Thank you.

Em: It– It’s– That’s a long. That’s a long time. That’s a long time.

Christine: Thank you. I’m shocked by the number. It really is like shocking that I’m approaching 100. Um, but it does get easier. I will say like almost immediately, within a couple days, it was like the grip of it was gone – or not gone but at least like way lower.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, so in the moment, it feels like there’s no possible way. Like your body is like, “We actually don’t know how to live without this,” and you’re like, “Uhh…” So it, it’s like a real thing. Your– And by the way, your brain is–

Em: I believe you, yeah.

Christine: Your brain is tricking you. If you’re– It’s telling you things– I used to google “is my brain tricking you?” and it was like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –“Yes, your brain is literally tricking you.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: 'Cause you get dopamine from this, and it’s like, “Do it again. Nothing else will do. Nothing else will do.”

Em: Of course. Well, especially the confirmation bias of, “Well, last time it made me feel a lot better, so.”

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And, “Why don’t we just do that again?” Yeah. And it’s like easy, and, you know. So don’t beat yourself up. It’s hard. Um, if I can do it, you can do it.

Em: Very proud of you. Um–

Christine: Thank you.

Em: And also, I know it’s like gotten kind of lost in the sauce at this point, but well done on, uh, the discussion about horoscopes as well.

Christine: [laughs] I know, right? I’m like, “This–“ I swear to god this was not even– And by the way, folks, for next week– 'Cause I was like, “Uh, I think I’m just gonna do the astrology today ’cause we already have a long episode,” but I do actually have a topic for next week, um, on, uh, two, two criminals called The Gemini Twins. Okay? So we can get to that– The– N-Next week’s o-off, but the week after, it’ll be, um– We’ll probably be leaving Gemini season. It’ll be the perfect time for me to force more Gemini talk into the ether–

Em: Well, the, the plot twist is that–

Christine: –the ethos.

Em: –we’re the Gemini Twins, and–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –we haven’t actually committed the crime yet, so we have to go do that before–

Christine: Gasp.

Em: –you can report on it.

Christine: We better do it soon–

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: –um, before our season’s over.

Em: Well, I’ve got some time on our birthdays, so.

Christine: Excellent.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Okay. You guys have to be our alibis.

Em: Oh! Well, I’m proud of you, Christine, and happy birthday!

Christine: Happy birthday!

Em: Next time I talk to you, you’ll be 35.

Christine: So elderly, half of 70. [chuckles]

Em: Oh, wow. Okay. Hey–

Christine: Sorry. [laughs] Sorry to ruin everyone’s day.

Em: Wow. I wanna die. Um–

Christine: I wanna– I almost said that earlier when you talked about Alaska, and I was like, “Zip it. Zip it.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “I hate fun. I hate fun,” and now I, I just– It burst out. I’m sorry.

Em: [sighs] Well, I– anyone if you wanna come to Alaska, you have a year to plan it. See you in June in Juneau.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Uh, a-and–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Don’t–

Christine: Don’t– [laughs]

Em: [chuckles] Drink.

Christine: Good one.

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