E486 Bisexual Muscle Tanks and a Mother Goose Ghost

TOPICS: MALAHIDE CASTLE, THE GEMINI TWINS

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It’s Episode 486 and the niche jokes are flowing! This week Em takes us to Ireland for the haunted Malahide Castle and its unique ghosts. Then Christine covers the case of the Gemini Twins, who aren’t actually Geminis? And don’t forget to align your chakras and take your meds! …and that’s why we drink!

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Transcript

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[intro music]

Em: Welcome to–

Christine: [singing] ♪ And That’s Why We Drink ♪

Em: –starring–

Christine: – [singing] ♪ Christine– ♪♪

Em: –and the court jester, Em.

Christine: Wow.

Em: I only say court jester because I, I just finished up looking at my notes and a court jester is involved. So they’re very on–

Christine: Really?

Em: –very on my mind right now.

Christine: Well, I was thinking about the notion of clowns anyway, but–

Em: Oh, that works too.

Christine: Yeah. And I was– That works too. I was thinking of like, like Geminis being like funny but kind of like that’s not all they are, you know?

Em: [chuckles] Thank you.

Christine: Like we’re funny, but like–

Em: We– What did you say last time? We contain multitudes?

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah. Let’s, let’s talk about that again. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Yeah.

Christine: Everyone who just listened to the last episode and is like going through these in order is like, “Not– No, I just– We just did this for–”

Em: Let’s pick another astrological sign and talk about it for a half an hour. [chuckles]

Christine: Please god.

Em: And keep all of it in. [laughs]

Christine: Please don’t. I mean, it’s really insufferable. I know. I know.

Em: Well, tell me, Christine, how is your little life going on over there?

Christine: I gotta say, things are, uh, in upheaval. I mean, I think it’s just one of those years where we hit June and everybody– I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but in my per– from my perspective, we hit June and I went, “Wasn’t, wasn’t stuff supposed to get like resolved and like put into place? And like weren’t– wasn’t justice like with the bigger picture of the, the, the government and the world, like weren’t we supposed to get moving and get– things were–“ And it’s like how are we halfway through the year and I still feel like this year’s kicking my ass like last year did?

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: Um, but I don’t know. Part of me feels like June is kind of like the– like we’re like getting ba– Like I feel I can d– kind of take a breath again. I don’t know.

Em: Oh, that’s nice.

Christine: There’s something like– Yeah, there’s something like a shift to the second half of the year, I don’t know, that’s, that’s making me feel a bit calmer about that. But, um, what I will say is that I, uh, I have a beverage here today–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –um, a special one. I mean, it’s, it’s my new favorite thing, and it’s, um–

Em: Tell me.

Christine: I should– I shouldn’t be ordering this–

Em: Te–

Christine: –multiple times a week ’cause it is expensive, um, but it is a–

Em: Tell me.

Christine: –Green Farm Juicery– um, it’s a Morning Jolt.

Em: Oh?

Christine: And my friend, Izzy, and I go for like mom walks sometimes on Mondays, and she walks me to that place, and I get that. And we did that yesterday, and then today, it’s all I could think about all morning, and so I had to get another one. And–

Em: I, I get it. I mean, there’s a reason–

Christine: [sucks in air through teeth]

Em: –I have way too many, um, London fogs sent out to the house. You know what I mean?

Christine: Yeah. And it’s like– it was like $12, and I was like, “Oy vey.” But you know what? I am not– I’m struggling with my appetite lately– Well, by the way, as a side note, the reason I drink is I hadn’t really looked at my DMs and then, um, the episode came out Sunday, and I know a lot of people probably, rightfully so, skipped my half because it was just about astrology. [chuckles] It wasn’t like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –like true crime astrology, but it wasn’t like, you know, a story, so I know some people probably weren’t into that. But I did discuss my recent sobriety. And so, for those who are confused about what I’m gonna say in a moment, that’s what happened in the last episode nearing the end. You can catch up on that. But, um, a lot of people wrote me, and you had said that, Em, and I was like, “Yeah, maybe.” But like I really feel very, um, touched by the amount of people who reached out and had similar stories or just like rec– I mean, even what was most touching were people who were like, “I–“ Like you said, like, “I was waiting for some sign or something to push me in the right direction, and like that was it,” or you know–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –“You really spoke to a part of me I wasn’t– I was neglect–“ I don’t know. There were a lot of really just kind and grateful sentiments that, um, that really, uh, were lovely to read, and I have not gotten back to all of them. I’ve, I’ve responded to a few um, and I do plan to go through them, but that’s gonna probably be like a, you know, a process of like taking my time and going through each one individually.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But so anyway, I bought my Morning Jolt. That was my little special tr– FL– FLT for today. Um, and that’s why I drink, so cheers. Uh–

Em: What– Is that why you drink also just the–

Christine: Team Milksha– Oh my god, it’s like Team Milkshake. Holy shit, man.

Em: Man, I don’t know what to call this show anymore. That’s Why–

Christine: Fuck.

Em: But also that– I can confirm. Are you drinking something right now?

Christine: Actually, I think we did that on purpose. We were like, “That’s good for–“

Em: We did.

Christine: “–anybody–“ ’Cause you don’t– never drank during the show. So it’s like, “Oh, it covers both.” So–

Em: It was, uh–

Christine: –I’m just defecting.

Em: –just drinking calories, period. We never–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –defined what we were drinking specifically. Just drinking something.

Christine: Actually, we did, like often. We defined often, but you know, it was always changing.

Em: I choose to rebuke that, um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –actually, just because it doesn’t fit my current narrative.

Christine: This beverage–

Em: Are you matching your fucking drink?

Christine: –matches my NPR crop top.

[Christine holds up her smoothie against her shirt. Her drink is a light tan beige color with a bright turquoise straw. Christine’s shirt is a pale yellow with a turquoise NPR logo on it.]

Em: Literally– By the way, NPR crop top–

Christine: Can we–

Em: –it gives bisexual. So happy Pride, everybody.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um– [chuckles]

Christine: I know. I know. By the way, it’s the most bisexual shirt I own. Of course, I wear it to–

Em: It’s literally a muscle tee. Like, okay, jujitsu one time.

Christine: It’s a muscle tee– I know. It’s–

Em: And n–

Christine: And then I buy like my $11 smoothie and I’m like–

Em: Who are you?

Christine: –it matches.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: I know. And I live in Kentucky, so it’s like way more affordable than doing this in LA, like some people do.

Em: Sure. That drink would be $29.99 here.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t have any sort of– No, that’s not happening. But yeah. Well, to be fair though, they have a bunch of different straws, so they sent this one. They picked it. They must have known.

Em: They said, “I bet–“

Christine: They must have felt it.

Em: “–a big old bisexual is gonna be, is gonna be in their orange blue crop top muscle tee.”

Christine: How could they have known?

Em: Literally– The fact that your biceps, your tattooed biceps, are showing, it is Pride, and she is loud today, everybody.

[Christine leans back, laughing.]

Em: Are you okay? [chuckles] I thought you were choking on your drink. Okay.

Christine: I wa– [chuckles] Oh, I wa– Oh, I, oh, I– Don’t get it twisted.

Em: Okay.

Christine: I was.

Em: Um, yes. Happy Pride to everybody. Um, by the time, this comes out–

Christine: Happy Pride.

Em: –it has been Pride for probably a little bit, but for us, we’re only on day two of Pride. So we’re–

Christine: I know. You know, this comes out later, but you’re right. Like our energy right now is so very Gemini, and I feel like it’ll like blast through the airwaves when this comes out, even though we’ll probably be nearing Cancer season, if not in it already.

Em: [groans, chuckles] Say it ain’t so.

Christine: So I’m sorry. Say it ain’t so, but like, yeah. We’re on one, and we are 1 to 2– 24 to 48 hours, respectively from our birthdays right now. So, you know.

Em: That's exactly right. It– Like this is the, um– I would argue this is the most ener– spiritually energetic weekend–

Christine: It’s like the peak.

Em: –of the year for us. It’s like–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –the gays are happy–

Christine: We’re like at our peak right now.

Em: –our birthdays’ about to happen. Like what else, what else could there be?

Christine: There’s like this terrible synergy. It’s great for us but terrible for everyone else–

Em: Agreed.

Christine: –where we’re just like, like mentally, um, unwell and like, you know, feeding each other [chuckles] some mental illnesses.

Em: Like a cartoon drawing of a twister is coming through.

Christine: Totally. Totally, Acme level style.

Em: We so– You know, we so–

Christine: You get it.

Em: You and me, we get– Yeah.

Christine: Happy Pride.

Em: [sighs] Well, I’m happy for you and your little jolt. I take it there’s coffee in that if it’s called “jolt.”

Christine: Oh, of course. Cold brew. And it feels so good. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Can feel it coursing through your big bi veins.

Christine: You know, it’s no fucking wine.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: But hey, you know, you lose some and you lose some, so here we are. [chuckles]

Em: [sighs] Well, uh, what, what do I have to say over here? I drink, uh, I drink a can of AZ.

[Em holds up a Green Tea AriZona tall boy can.]

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And– which–

Christine: We both have really delightful like aesthetic drinks today. I like this.

Em: My favorite thing about this– And, by the way, let me tell you now– let me, let me guide you on your journey through sobriety.

Christine: Mm.

Em: This is now–

Christine: [laughs] Please do. I’ve been waiting for someone to.

Em: Welcome to Drinking 101. This is your– Now, this is your tall boy. This is the closest thing to tall boys you get.

Christine: [clapping]

Em: You get AriZona green teas. Okay? [chuckles]

Christine: You know, I’ll take it. Like I–

Em: It’s pretty fucking great.

Christine: I– Like I have found that quitting drinking has brought me back to a lot of my teenage interests, right?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Because it’s like before I started drinking. Like I loved AriZona. Like that was what Selene and I would go get every day. And it’s like, “Oh, I can go back to those things. They’re still there waiting for me.”

Em: Well, it’s like– It’s al–

Christine: I’m the prodigal son.

Em: [laughs] And Jesus has arrived.

Christine: Do you see how quickly I escalate to like a god complex? It’s kind of amazing.

Em: You literally told– warned people just now that something was in the air, and then you called yourself Jesus, and you expect people to be shocked. Um…

Christine: I mean, I told you. I tried to warn you.

Em: I– And I’m fine with it. And notice how you said that you’re the prodigal son and I didn’t fucking say anything bad. I went–

Christine: You’re exactly right.

Em: –“That’s right. Keep that energy.”

Christine: You’re right to do that. Thank you.

Em: Um, no, I totally agree with you. You, you worded it in a way that I wouldn’t have, uh, thought of it, but you’re totally right that by having never drank, I have al– I still have the, um– and you now also, have the childhood whimsy back of–

Christine: Yeah. There’s like a reclaiming of the whimsy. Yeah.

Em: ’Cause this [holds up the AriZona can] was the closest to like “getting fucked up” we could do at 16. And it’s like–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –well, now I get to get fucked up on a–

Christine: Well, actually, it wasn’t, but it was as far as I knew it was in this–

Em: What, a wine cooler? [laughs]

Christine: Right? Like I don’t know. I’m like there were kids doing stuff, but not me. Yeah, I was getting fucked up on, on the, the iced tea and going, “I can’t sleep–“

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: “–’cause I had too much caffeine. Ha-ha-ha.” [chuckles]

Em: And now you can do that with your jolt as well. Um–

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah, exactly. That’s my vice.

Em: Well, okay. So I drank my, my tall boy, and–

Christine: Love it.

Em: –uh, I just took my meds, so everybody, please take your meds. Uh–

Christine: Oh, fantastic.

Em: –reminder.

Christine: Oh, I took mine right on time today for the first time in weeks–

Em: Good for you.

Christine: –and I felt like– I was like, “I’m aligned,” you know?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Yeah. I– You start with, “I’m Jesus,” and then you went, “My chakras–“

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “–are aligned because I took my prescribed medication.” [laughs]

Christine: I took it for one time at the exact right time. Yeah. And you know what? It was a beautiful moment.

Em: I believe you. I do know what it feels like when your body is actually, um, responding well to your choices. That feels good.

Christine: Yeah. It’s because it’s in– it’s a little bit of in shock–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and then it’s like, “Can I get used to this?” And you’re like, “Mm, careful.”

Em: Hang on.

Christine: [laughs] “Not yet. Not yet.”

Em: Well, um, the reason I drink is, uh, Allison took me– I already celebrated my birthday this weekend.

Christine: Oh, yes. Where did you go?

Em: Okay. I– We went to a little town a few hours away. I was scared because I just never know what’s gonna happen [chuckles] when I hear “a long road trip.”

Christine: Well, you have prior experience.

Em: And I even asked in advance. I was like, “Will there be a hotel?” Because sometimes–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –it’s the ground. And I went, “Is it– Is there a hotel?” And even then–

Christine: Is it a bring your own pillow?

Em: Thank you.

Christine: BYOP.

Em: BYOP.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And Allison was hesitating, and I was like–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –“Girl, please don’t make me sleep on the ground for my birthday. Please don’t do this.”

Christine: Girl.

Em: Allison fucking nailed it. This is what happened.

Christine: Aww.

Em: But she– The reason she was hesitant is because what she was trying to avoid was that this was a bit of like a themed motel situation. So she couldn’t really say anything.

Christine: Ooh. So it was like too– Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get you, get you, get you.

Em: So we went to, um, Idyllwild, which is about three hours from us, and–

Christine: Beautiful.

Em: You have heard about Idyllwild before because I’ve told you that there’s a certain mayor there I’ve always wanted to meet.

Christine: I have heard of Idyllwild. In fact, I had not– I–

[Em tips their chin to their chest, showing off the design on their black baseball hat. A Golden Retriever puppy stands with a front paw raised up on a green oval with a pine tree forest in the background and a white border. On the left in white capital letters, it says “the paw is the law,” and on the right, it says, “Mayor Max.”]

Christine: Oh! The hat! The law? No–

Em: “The paw is the law.” [chuckles]

Christine: “The paw is the law.”

Em: This is Mayor Max when he was a puppy.

Christine: Y–

Em: And I got to meet the mayor o’ Idyllwild.

Christine: You know what? So, so, first of all, I’m so– This is the– I’m– My brain is a little bit short-circuiting. That’s remarkable. Nailed it.

Em: Allison nailed it.

Christine: Out of the park.

Em: I, I could–

Christine: Knocked it out of the fucking park.

Em: She found out that Mayor Max was having a– an event, a meet and greet, and then we drove three hours to meet a dog. We couldn’t tell Hank, of course, that would have been so devastating to him, um–

Christine: Oh my word, no.

Em: –to– so we were going to go see the other cutie pie. Um–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –but we– I got to meet him and his whole little gang because, if you follow Mayor Max, you know that it’s not just Mayor Max. There’s also Vice Mayor Meadow. There’s Co-Mayor, Mitzi. There’s deputies. There’s all these puppies everywhere, just a golden retriever party.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, and so we got there. Mayor Max was in his cowboy hat and his bib, his little bandana.

Christine: Stop.

Em: It said “Mayor Max,” of course. Um–

Christine: Of course.

Em: We got to take so many pictures with him. I got to touch his ears, and I’ll tell you–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –thick as thieves, those ears.

Christine: [groans]

Em: Thick. Oh my god.

Christine: [groans] I love ‘em.

Em: Like we were like–

Christine: I love ‘em.

Em: We were trying to come up with– Like I’ve never felt a thicker dog ear, which is such a weird thing to take away from this.

Christine: But they’re so velvety soft.

Em: All I wanted to do– Here, you’re Mayor Max. This is all I wanted to do to Mayor, Mayor Max.

[Em puts their hands on either side of the camera, shaking their hands up and down.]

Em: You know what I mean?

Christine: [groans] Yes.

Em: But I wasn’t gonna do that to the mayor, so I just kind of gave him a pet, grabbed his little ear, and said, “Hello.” And wow.

Christine: That's what you would do to any other mayor.

Em: That’s what I did to you when we first met.

Christine: [laughs] That’s right.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And that’s when I said, “ Alright, s–“

Em: “Gotta, gotta sign up for that.” [laughs]

Christine: “Sign me up. Whatever it is, I’m in.” [laughs]

Em: But I would do that to any mayor. You’re right. Uh, and I was shocked there wasn’t a shirt that said like, “I got to kiss the mayor,” or “I touched the mayor’s really thick ear.”

Christine: I l– I mean, “the mayor kissed me,” “the mayor licked me.”

Em: [groans]

Christine: You know, there’s so many options.

Em: So many o– “I, I scratched the mayor’s butt.”

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “I rubbed the mayor’s tummy.” I mean, possibilities are endless.

Christine: Did they, did they– Just asking for a friend, did they sell any crop muscle tanks– [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –that look vaguely bisexual and heathered in, uh, in appearance?

Em: In acid wash?

Christine: Just wond–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Acid wash, heathered appearance. Like it looks like it’s thrifted, but it’s obviously not.

Em: You know, so they ha– I was expecting to get a shirt as soon as I found out that I was seeing Mayor Max because I–

Christine: Of course.

Em: –I’ve looked. They do have shirts on the website, and I was– I always almost bought a shirt. Um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –and then they didn’t have any shirts there. They only had, um, magnets and stickers. Obviously, I bought one of each. Uh, and then I got the hat, “Paw is the law.” Um–

Christine: I bet the shirts are hard ’cause you would need like different sizing–

Em: Sizing, yeah.

Christine: –and you wouldn’t know. Yeah.

Em: So anyway, we did that and while we were in Idyllwild, we ended up spending the night there, and that’s when Allison sent me to this, um, like out of control, insane, wonderful, uh, motel called Hicksville Pines.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: I need you to google her l–

Christine: Okay, okay.

Em: –now.

Christine: Okay. I was hoping you’d say that.

Em: So there’s like ten different rooms or something, and each of them are themed. We got Haunted Mansion–

Christine: [groans]

Em: –which–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –which was so fun.

Christine: Shut the fuck up.

Em: And like our bathroom had a secret passageway to get to the bathroom, and the walls had like the stretching wall i– like that you have at the Haunted Mansion in Disney.

Christine: Get out of here.

Em: The n– They had the statues, and they all glowed at night and played music and stuff.

Christine: The Haunted Mansion? Oh my god, it looks so cool.

Em: It was very cool. And that place–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –they also had, um, like a Dolly-themed room. They had a 420-themed room.

Christine: Okay, I’m going to the 420 Room. Oh!

Em: It’s literally just like an A-frame full of blacklight posters. [chuckles]

Christine: Hang on. I have to– I’m actually just gonna Pinterest this real quick–

Em: And so–

Christine: –for just like home aesthetics.

Em: –I don’t know if you noticed, but it’s called “a bud and breakfast,” not a bed and breakfast. And so–

Christine: Please.

Em: –when you get there and they give you your room key, they also give you complimentary pot. [laughs] And they were like–

Christine: Wait, what?

Em: She literally was like, “Oh, I forgot your weed,” and just handed us a bunch of weed. [laughs]

Christine: And you’re sure it wasn’t like a weed from Idyllwild? Like–

Em: That would be funny.

Christine: –“Here’s just like a piece of grass.” No? Oh, wow. That’s–

Em: But–

Christine: I like that there’s a “What to Expect,” and I’m like usually you wouldn’t click that, but it sounds like a place like this, you gotta click “What to Expect.”

Em: It was incredibly 420-friendly, incredibly–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –dog-friendly–

Christine: Breakfast, coffee, and tea, Morning Munchies.

Em: Yes. So the breakfast that we had, uh– they– It’s a marijuana leaf. I was so stupid. It didn’t occur to me. I was like, “Oh my god, Canada.” Like I literally– I just thought it was a fucking maple leaf. [laughs]

Christine: Canada? [laughs]

Em: I thought it was a maple leaf.

Christine: I was like, “It’s green.”

Em: It didn’t occur to me that it was green. And then the candle that they gave me, ’cause it was my birthday, they made it look like a little joint sticking out of it. It was very–

Christine: Oh my god, that’s adorable.

Em: So it was, uh– We obviously are not, um–

Christine: Ah, this looks cool.

Em: We’re not smokers, but it was– So we weren’t there for that theme, but it was still super cool. And they had a whole, um– They had a communal, uh, fire pit house, so you could all sit in there and have a fire.

Christine: Wow.

Em: They had a hot tub. They had corn-hole. They had ping pong. They had a whole like rec area that was open 24/7, so you could play any games and a jukebox. And–

Christine: That sounds lovely.

Em: It was very, very wonderful. Um, so anyway, Allison nailed it. We did that. We, um, hit some like, uh, Route 66 roadside attractions along the way–

Christine: Ooh.

Em: –um, went to the original McDonald’s–

Christine: Nice.

Em: –went to a glass museum, saw some uranium glass. Not a single celery vase in that–

Christine: Really?

Em: –in that glass museum that I saw. Yeah, shocking.

Christine: Weird.

Em: Anyway, so Allison killed it. Um, I got to meet the mayor.

Christine: I’m so happy for you. That is literally a bucket list item.

Em: It was a good time, yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So if anyone’s–

Christine: Congratulations.

Em: Thank you. So if anyone’s ever in Idyllwild– they also have one in Joshua Tree, I think, but – Hicksville Pines, I just wanna give them a big shout-out ’cause it was awesome, so.

Christine: Yeah, I mean, I’m in for the 420 Room. Sounds fun. Or for all of it.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] They also have like a nerd-themed one which sounded cool. Anyway, um, yeah, that’s why I drink. I had a very nice b-day–

Christine: Yay.

Em: –and that’s about it. Oh, we’re here. Um, so yeah, I don’t know. I guess we just tell stories now? I don’t–

Christine: Ah, I–

Em: Oh, wait! Wait. You wanted to say– you wanted to tease–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –a Yappy Hour situation.

Christine: Oh, that’s right. Okay. What were we talking about?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh, you asked– [laughs] “Remind me what I was gonna tease about.”

Em: Right.

Christine: Uh, no. So you had said– We were doing s– an ad for Storyworth and off– like off-air, you kind of said to me, “Oh, I would send this to you and ask a ques– like fill in your own question–“

Em: Yes, yes.

Christine: “–and ask you to retell the story of your stepmom buying the bear.” And I said, “Well–” and I realized, “Oh my gosh, this would be perfect for Yappy Hour.” ’Cause I actually think I can find the news articles–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –that actually mention it and ta-talk about the event–

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: –in the local news from, from that, from that time period. So I’m gonna try and do that during the Yappy Hour and pull up like actual news articles, um, not to prove it, but just to be like–

Em: No, I want to know.

Christine: –this is the context of what happened. And I don’t know all of it either. So like I, I could learn a thing or two. But so. Yeah, my stepmom–

Em: That’s incredible.

Christine: –bought a bear. Sorry, if you’re like, “What the fuck is going on?” I am too. But– Or Em is too. But my stepmother bought a bear– or my stepmom’s brother bought a bear off a catalo–

Em: When they were kids.

Christine: –in a catalog. Yeah, when they were kids. Sorry. [chuckles] When they were kids. And it–

Em: And I know we’ve talked about it before, but I was like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –if– When we were talking about Storyworth, I was like, “If I want a story memorialized at all–

Christine: Right, right, to memorialize it.

Em: “–because I constantly forget the, the nitty-gritty details. I want–“

Christine: Yeah. We wanna know– We wanna sol– We wanna solidify this. We wanna get this in writing.

Em: Yes.

Christine: Um–

Em: Yeah, [laughs] that’s exactly right.

Christine: And I’m, and I’m, I’m so thankful that you brought that up. So I’m gonna look– I’ve been meaning to look into the news articles for like years, and I’m pretty sure they’re, they’re on the– in the archives. So I’m just gonna pull it up during the Yappy Hour and see if I can find it, so.

Em: Perfect. Okay, great.

Christine: Yay.

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Em’s Story – Malahide Castle

Em: Okay. Well, my story for you is haunted castle–

Christine: Mm?

Em: –in Ireland.

Christine: Mm!

Em: [attempting an Irish accent] Ireland. I’m not even gonna try. Well, I did. I’m not gonna do it again though. So–

Christine: I thought that was pretty good, but I’m the one who said Glasgow [pronounced “glass-gow”] instead of Glasgow [pronounced “glass-go”], so.

Em: It’s, it’s okay. We’re evenly matched.

Christine: We’ve–

Em: We’ve both said very silly things, haven’t we? Um–

Christine: Super silly. Super silly.

Em: I remember one time we had a show – I think it was in– Was it Minnesota? And, uh, I, I remember saying– I– “Wabasha Caves” [pronounced “wuh-bah-shah”], and apparently, it was Wabasha [pronounced “wah-buh-shah”] or something, and ev– ev– the whole audience screamed, “Wabasha!” [pronounced “wah-buh-shah”], and I’m like, “Ah!” So, um–

Christine: In the moment, it is the– probably the worst. It is like a–

Em: I was like–

Christine: –living nightmare.

Em: –“I’m the stupidest person on earth.”

Christine: Everyone’s screaming at you. It’s like a nightmare where you’ve like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –forgotten your lines on stage, but the audience is suddenly shouting and they’re also drunk, and you’re like, “Uh-oh.” [chuckles]

Em: And they know the lines better than you. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah, they know the line, right.

Em: Well, okay. So this is, um, an Irish castle. It’s called the Malahide Castle.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And let’s crack into it? Hang on. [whispering] Let’s crack into it. [cracks open their AriZona can]

Christine: That was good.

Em: Now, that was nice. Okay.

Christine: That was a really good one.

Em: [chuckles] Just another reason that we, um, are big AZ fans over here.

Christine: Yeah, I love that.

Em: Okay, so. Ireland. We're in the Dublin area, and this is a 12th century castle owned by the Talbot family, and they’ve owned this castle for almost 800 years.

Christine: Oh, Jesus. Wow. That, that– Talk about inheritance. Uh–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –real quick, also side note before people like tweet at me– It might be too late. And also I don’t have– I got locked out of Twitter, and it doesn’t even exist, so I don’t know why I’m saying that.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: But, uh, yeah, I know Glasgow is in, in Scotland. Just saying that. Sorry.

Em: Okay. [chuckles]

Christine: But, but when I gave that example, I meant like as someone who doesn’t know–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –how to pronounce even like very obvious things. Sorry.

Em: I think we got– No, you’re good.

Christine: I just realized like it made it sound like I don’t– I know s– I know one or two things sometimes. Okay?

Em: Sometimes.

Christine: I promise.

Em: But not always.

Christine: Yeah. I try.

Em: But it’s okay.

Christine: I’m really trying.

Em: We can’t be experts in every field. It’s exhausting to do that, trust me.

Christine: Only a, only a few. But we’ve tried.

Em: Uh, so the Talbots have, uh, owned– or they, they owned this castle for almost 800 years. And when I say almost, I mean 791. Why the fuck–

Christine: Do–

Em: –didn’t you live here for nine more years?

Christine: Do you think that killed them? ’Cause– because someone like me was like, “No, I think it’s funnier to just leave right before 800.”

Em: Wow. It– It’s like I–

Christine: And it really pissed you right off. That was us in a past time. I feel it in my bones. That was us. I was like, “Actually, I’m gonna make the lease end like two days before–“

Em: Like–

Christine: “–the 800th.” [laughs]

Em: Truly, I’m just like, “You were so close. Like in–“

Christine: That's hilarious.

Em: At that point, shit, like why not just stay 200 more years and it’s a thousand years? Like what?

Christine: Well, you know, you’re right. Why not just like perpetuate this responsibility through a couple more generations?

Em: Thank you. Thank you.

Christine: So that just you now, in this moment, can go, “Thousand years sounds pretty good.”

Em: I’m so glad you saw it that way. That’s exactly what I meant. So, um, [chuckles] the Talbots, they lived for 791 years–

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: They lived in this castle up until the 1970s, so like very recently.

Christine: Holy cra– So they really just had to– Oh, I was gonna say they had to make it to the year 2000. Then I went–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –“Christine, I need– you need to get it together. You need to actually sto–“

Em: Well, they only need to make it to the 1980s–

Christine: “Actually, you– what you need to do is be quiet.”

Em: –to make it to the 800s– to make it to 800.

Christine: Okay. No. What?

Em: Yeah. With o–

Christine: Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Em: Exactly. Why couldn’t you just do this for me? God.

Christine: Hang on. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: What’s the matter with you? [laughs]

Em: Thank you. [laughs] I– Finally. Okay. So they lived in this castle up until the 1970s when they sold it to the Irish government to pay off inheritance taxes.

Christine: Oh. [laughs]

Em: Whoopsies. So–

Christine: They were like, “Well, maybe my ancestors should have thought about that before, uh–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “–saddling us with all this tremendous debt.”

Em: 800 years of inheritance taxes.

Christine: Uh-huh.

Em: So their almost 800-year 8– ownership of the property makes the Talbot family one of, if not the, longest continual landowning families in Ireland.

Christine: Jeez.

Em: Which I, I should have looked this up, but who has lived there longer? Because like I feel like they win. Like the fact that they’re “one of” is like who else is there?

Christine: “One of,” I know. Talbots. J.Jill.

Em: J.Jill? [laughs] What are you–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: The fuck are you saying to me? “IDK. My BFF J.Jill Talbot who owns a castle”? [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I keep flopping. My jokes have been flopping all week.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I think it’s because–

Em: No. I’m sure it’s hysterical, but I’m just–

Christine: –Mercury is in Cancer and it makes me think that like my– I’m saying what I’m saying and I’m not. Okay? What I was trying to say is d– is– [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –do you remember that store–

Em: No, no, explain it.

Christine: –called J.Jill?

Em: No, I’ve never heard of J.Jill.

Christine: Oh, well, it’s like Talbots, the store, the women’s store.

Em: Ohh!

Christine: [laughs]

Em: That would have been hysterical if I knew what J.Jill was. That would have been funny.

Christine: Somebody did hopefully, but the other– I couldn’t think of another example like–

Em: J.Crew?

Christine: –White House Black Market? J.Crew is good too, but I meant J.Jill.

Em: Ann Taylor?

Christine: Ann Taylor is a better one. I should have said Ann Taylor.

Em: What’s the other one? Um, Clay– Clay–

Christine: Yeah, there’s one with a C.

Em: Clay– Whatever. Talbots– J.Jill is ve– is a very funny joke. I just didn’t know the reference. That's very good.

Christine: No, I appreciate that you still laughed though. I mean, you really did laugh because you were like, “I bet it’s funny. I just don’t know what that is,” so thank you for giving me that grace.

Em: I don’t think you’ve ever flopped. It’s truly anytime I haven’t understood one of your jokes, it’s on me. It’s not because you’re not funny.

Christine: Can I tell you the joke that flopped, which– Because like I’ve now gotten kind of– My brother was I felt on my side, and then I think he defected because I asked him to verify that he was on my side in front of Blaise–

Em: Mm. That’s a problem.

Christine: –and then he kind of like– Yeah, it was a problem. He switched kind of to Blaise’s side–

Em: It’s–

Christine: –and I felt a little bit like, “Hey, guys.”

Em: The extra kick in the crotch there is that like he was like ready to be loyal to whatever the fuck was going on and then you still publicly went, “Now, prove it,” and he’s like, “I just tried to prove it.” [chuckles]

Christine: I know. And that’s my dumb fucking– I can’t shut the fuck up. It’s true.

Em: He was like, “I was gonna help you out, man.”

Christine: He was like, “I gave you the validation you sought, okay?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “And now don’t make me like get int– involved in an argument between you and your husband about whether you’re funny or not. Like just fucking–“

Em: Ohh.

Christine: “–come on.” No, the– And Blaise never said that. This was just me trying to insist that my joke landed.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And clearly the more I get mad about it, the less funny it’s gonna be. But the basic gist of it was somebody I was speaking to–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –said– I said, “Oh, grow– They, they grow marijuana,” And I f– I, I saw this, and I like DM’d and said, “Oh, that’s such a cool hobby. I would love to learn that someday.” And this is one of Blaise’s friends, so I’m like, “Oh, I just saw this.” So this person responds and says, “Oh, yeah, I have plenty of cheat codes if you ever do.”

Em: Cool.

Christine: And I said, “Is one of them ‘rosebud’?”

Em: [chuckles] See, that’s funny. But he had never wa–

Christine: I thought it was funny, and then–

Em: But he never played Sims? Is that it?

Christine: So I saw the, the typing, and then I saw it stop, and then I said, “Oh, fuck.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Fuck!

Em: You saw him go, “Uhh, what do I say here?”

Christine: “Wait a minute.” Yeah.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And then he’s like, “We don’t know each other well enough to be bantering in a way where I can say, ‘What the fuck does that mean?’” So then I said to Blaise, “Do you understand this joke?” And I said it to him, and he went, “No, I don’t understand the joke.” And I said, “It’s from The Sims, like ‘motherlode.’” And he said, “I know the word ‘mother lode,’” and I went, “Okay, enough of this.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And so then I said to, to, to Blaise’s friend, “Sorry, neither person in the room understood the joke. This is clearly on me. I take full responsibility,” and Blaise’s friend said, “Never apologize for being too niche.” And I was like–

Em: Oh?

Christine: –“That’s such a kind way of saying that. Thank you.”

Em: What a good man. Jesus Christ.

Christine: I know. I know. And I thought– And– Wow. So anyway–

Em: Wow, that’s really profound.

Christine: –I don’t– It was profound, and it felt, uh, it felt very validating, but then my brother was like, “Yeah, in some circles, that’s a pretty–“ Okay, maybe he didn’t give me the validation that I really wanted. I don’t know.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Maybe I invented that part. ’Cause even when I look back, I’m like, he didn’t seem all that convinced. Maybe it’s not as good a joke as I thought. Maybe it’s just my algorithm talks about The Sims so much that I assume everybody has this on their same feed, you know?

Em: Trust me, as someone whose algorithm is fucking nuts right now–

Christine: You– I figured you’d understand.

Em: –I say a lot of things and just hope and pray I don’t look like an idiot.

Christine: I– You know what–

Em: And a lot of times my prayers aren’t answered. [chuckles]

Christine: –and it happens. But, typically, like when other people do– say something, I’m like, “Oh, I just don’t get it. But like I’m s–“ I just– Like how you did with J.Jill. Like how it’s probably funny. But when it’s a DM one-on-one, I realize like, “Okay, this is awkward because we don’t know each other that well.” So it’s like he’s gotta be like–

Em: But that’s a lot of like–

Christine: –“Do I say ‘ha-ha’? Do I say, ‘What does that mean?’”

Em: But that happens a lot even with like friend dating where–

Christine: Yes, yeah.

Em: –you have to just–

Christine: Friend dating is totally the worst with that.

Em: You just have to say some wild shit and hope that they know what the reference is.

Christine: And then like if there’s that like weird pause you’re like, “Moving on. Moving on.”

Em: “We did not pass the litmus test there.” Yeah, yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Whoops. Okay. [chuckles]

Em: Um, remember that one, uh, w– I, I wouldn’t even say friend, but the person that I went on a friend date with and we both ghosted each other?

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: I tried too many times throwing out niche references, and I just probably looked like I need– needed my medication. [laughs]

Christine: It’s– At a certain point, you kinda gotta cut your losses. Yeah. You’re like, “Ah, one day I’ll be aligned enough for this conversation.”

Em: It’s like, “Our algorithms don’t like each other, therefore I don’t think this is gonna work.”

Christine: “Yeah, we’re just crisscrossing.”

Em: Anyway, J.Jill.

Christine: Right. So that’s the joke. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.

Em: Was that like J.Crew, Ann Taylor, Chico’s?

Christine: It was like– 100%.

Em: Okay.

Christine: It was like where my mother would go buy like cardigans or whatever. No, she would kill me for saying that, but you know, like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: It was like very mom fashion.

Em: It was that kind of store. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, those were all the stores my mom made me go to, uh, when we would do–

Christine: 100%.

Em: –back-to-school shopping.

Christine: It’s like really rough for the pencil skirt.

Em: Yeah. [laughs] They, they love–

Christine: Like the pencil skirt flashbacks really–

Em: They love a polo. A nice–

Christine: Oh, a polo. Man, there’s– And apparently those are back. I went into a Hollister store with my sister unwillingly, and I was like, “This is literally the exact same store from 25 years ago.”

Em: You know what else is back?

Christine: Like no difference.

Em: They’ve been back for a while now, I hate to say it, Birkenstocks. They’re like–

Christine: I mean, I wear Birkenstocks every– You know how I feel– I mean, I’ve worn Birkenstocks every day of my life.

Em: But they’re like back, back. They’re back, back, back. Like, you are in right now if you have Birkenstocks.

Christine: Oh– No, I know. I have like 16 pair– No, I don’t. I have two. But still.

Em: I’m a little, um, offended by, uh, them being back because the current generation who’s bringing them back doesn’t understand that it was, um, the only way we could out ourselves back then. Now everyone just wears them.

Christine: Oh, I see. Yeah. I mean, it was–

Em: Like they were a gay icon, and now we’re just– everyone can have them? Crazy. That’s crazy.

Christine: I know. But like think about like the crop tee. It’s sometimes about the energy you bring to the situation, okay, Em? Is what I would say–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: –because I own two pairs of Birkenstocks. One are like a cute light blue color that I always accidentally match my nail– my toenail polish color to, and it’s kind of like this cutesy vibe. But then I own my like granola Birkenstocks, and it’s like I wear those out, and it’s like, “Oh, that’s not the same person,” you know?

Em: You know–

Christine: Like that’s a different energy. And it’s the same with this crop. I bought this thinking, “I’m gonna look so like cute and girly,” and then I get it, and I’m like, “Whoa, I look intense.” like you know– I, I don’t know. You never know.

Em: You look like you could kick my ass. Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Well, I couldn’t. Um, and you never– I’m wearing Birkenstocks.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Um, but you never know. [chuckles] I feel like it’s also about the like vibe you bring. But you’re right, like there is for sure like a little bit of like, “Hey!” You know?

Em: “That was, that was ours.” Um, also–

Christine: “Hey, wait a minute.”

Em: You know what was the gayest piece of clothing – any, um, sapphic person growing up in the early 2000s can tell you this is probably the gayest thing they’ve ever worn – was when American Eagle came out with those patchwork quilt shorts. Do you remember?

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: You know what I mean?

Christine: I have like 11.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: My mother has like a box of just those.

Em: I–

Christine: Like 11 of– pairs of those.

Em: You know what? They recently came up on my fucking TikTok feed–

Christine: [chuckles] Oh my god.

Em: –which means that those plus Birkenstocks are back, which means we’re just– They’re just rubbing it in my face now.

Christine: Maybe they’re just like, “Do you wanna try again and be gay this time?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I’m like, “Maybe.” [laughs]

Em: “Do you want to just kiss girls when you’re wearing these instead of thinking about it?”

Christine: “Do you want to just try it?” [laughs]

Em: Between my, my, my polo shirts, ’cause I wore a collared shirt every day, or–

Christine: Did you ever do the double collared shirt? ’Cause that was just–

Em: Of course I did. Of course I did.

Christine: –so– That was so annoying.

Em: Puka shells. Ugh.

Christine: The double polo I thought was just a little bit absurd. A lot a bit absurd.

Em: It was. Even when I was doing it, I was like, “This looks fucking stupid.”

Christine: This is a good photo op though ’cause there are some hilarious photos of me wearing like Hollister or like trying to look– and it looks– It’s like I was supposed to be wearing the pilgrim shoes my mom had bought me–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and that was the aura I was projecting, but I was like wearing a pink halter top. Do you know what I mean?

Em: There was also, um– There was a phase where I finally stopped wearing the patchwork shorts– ’Cause I’m trying to think would pictures of that exist. It’s so hard because there were very few pictures taken of me in high school. But there was, um– I also went through a phase where I was wearing a lot of capris, but they were cargo capris which–

Christine: Oh, the cargo capris had such a stranglehold.

Em: And you know what? To this day, I’d wear them again. They were so lovely. They, they were breezy, but they were as butch as we could get at a prep school where I was in the closet.

Christine: I have something to tell you. My sister said that capris, they’re back at Hollister now too.

Em: God dammit. Wow. It really– It all– It’s all– It’s– Nothing’s changed. And you know what? They’re gonna act like it’s– like they came up with it. It’s fine.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: That's fine.

Christine: Yeah, and it’s fine. And guess what? We probably didn’t come up with it either.

Em: We probably didn’t.

Christine: When the polos came out, the ’80– the Ronald Reagan, the Nancy Reagan heads–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –all those big Nancy Reagan heads were like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –“Hey, that’s our thing, you dumb bitch.”

Em: Nancy Reagan said, “Excuse me.”

Christine: “You dumb cunt, give me that polo.”

Em: [laughs] Oh, how did we get here? Oh, Talbots. Right.

Christine: Right. Sure. J.Jill.

Em: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Um, [sighs] what a, what a ride that was. I’m still stuck on that one store that starts with a C and I don’t know what it is. Like “Clayborns” or some shit like that. Anyway.

Christine: Liz Claiborne is a thing, but I think–

Em: Oh?

Christine: –you’re thinking of something different, which I feel like I’m also trying to think of.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: ’Cause Liz Claiborne is makeup.

Em: Oh, okay. No, I’m thinking of like a New York & Company, but that was young J.Crew. That was like, “In ten years, you’ll be at J.Crew.”

Christine: New York & Com– Yeah, it was like it was, um– What do you call it? The, um, the gateway or like the–

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] The–

Christine: –the feeder. The– [chuckles]

Em: The gateway closet. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Okay. The, the Talbots. Oh my god. So they own this castle for almost 800 years. Uh, the first Talbot to own it was Sir Richard Talbot. He got it in 1185.

Christine: [chuckles] “He got it.”

Em: He– Well, he was– It was gifted to him, uh–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –because he worked for King Henry II, and to reward him for all of his work, King Henry II said, “Here’s land, build a castle.”

Christine: Nice.

Em: “Do whatever you want with it.” Um, so the property also became a significant port for the area, which helped the Talbot family actually become very powerful. Not only were they just randomly given a castle, but now they are– that castle also happens to be a, a big port. So they’re very powerful.

Christine: I like you said it’s so random. I’m like, didn’t he literally work for the king? So they– probably not super random, but–

Em: Not super random, but he– it’s like it– like he– it was granted to him– Like if he saw ten years into the future, he would have been like, “Oh, I did not realize we were gonna be this powerful of a family.”

Christine: Right, okay. It wasn’t like, “Now turn this land into a big shipping port.” It was just sort of like it happened. Okay.

Em: It ha– It all kind of happened for him. And so then the Talbots became this big family in town, eventually a big family in all of Ireland. And, uh, the castle itself did expand over time. After 800 years, of course, things would have changed with it.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: But they basically built towers and gardens, and it slowly got more and more lavish. At– One source said that King Henry the– or King Edward IV at some point even like funded the castle getting bigger and grander because it was a port and it was therefore important to him as well. So anyway, it, it got very lavish over time. There was one time in, uh– In that 800 years that the Talbots owned it, only once did it momentarily switch hands–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and that was from 1649 to 1660, so it’s only an 11-year time period.

Christine: Tough, tough 11 years. What happened?

Em: Well, it was the English Civil War.

Christine: Oh.

Em: And Oliver Cromwell and his knights threw out all– pretty much all the people in town. They were–

Christine: And his cronies.

Em: And his cronies.

Christine: Cromwell and his cronies.

Em: That’s exactly right.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And one of his cronies was named Miles Corbett.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: And, uh, basically, when the entire town was exiled or thrown out–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –uh, that included the Talbots, so the castle was available, and Cromwell gave it to his crony, Miles Corbett.

Christine: Got it.

Em: So when, uh, when he lived there, Corbett was hated by the remaining locals. I bet– or I– It said that he tried criminalizing Catholicism, which a lot of people in the area were Catholic. He had their abbey and their churches vandalized. It’s actually rumored that at one point he also set up a brewery in one of the chapels. Um–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –and that– This is– Again, I don’t know how true this is, but it’s rumored that, “the smoke from the fires–“ this is a quote, “the smoke from the fires under his boiler,”, uh, when it was a brewery, “are still visible in the chapel.”

Christine: Oh, that’s cool.

Em: Which to me, it’s like super cool. Like, “Oh, make it a brewery.” But also it’s like what a slap in the face to like their fucking place of worship. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah. It would be like you barging into somewhere that practices a different religion–

Em: 100%.

Christine: –and you’re like, “I’m just gonna put this in your mosque,” and it’s like, no.

Em: Yes. He was also known for being one of the people who signed the death warrant for King Charles I.

Christine: Whoa.

Em: So King Charles did not like this man because, uh–

Christine: I would think not.

Em: –he was one of the people who, who signed off on the king dying. Uh, so he lived here for 11 years until the Restoration and King Charles II was put in power. And when King Charles II was put in power, he was like, “Remember all those people who killed the other King Charles, um, before me?”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: “I would like to round all those people up, and I’d like them to be held accountable for their crimes.” And that includes Miles Corbett.

Christine: Yikes.

Em: So Corbett had been living in the castle for 11 years. He flees the, the country. He goes to the Netherlands to try to hide so that way they can’t find him and kill him in retaliation. Um, but they eventually find him. They take him in, and he is, quote, “hanged, drawn, and quartered before a cheering crowd.”

Christine: Oh, yuck-o.

Em: Hold that energy because this is where I do another quick dive into, um, what hanged, drawn, and quartered means.

Christine: W-why must we do that? Alright.

Em: ’Cause someone wants to hear it.

Christine: Someone wants to know. Go ahead.

Em: And I have, I think, covered this before, um, so this is just a quick little thing, but you know, people like–

Christine: Yeah, sickos. Google it yourself and read the dirty details.

Em: –people like the, uh, ins and outs of medieval torture. So here we go. I got all this information, by the way, from an article from How Stuff Works. Uh, fun fact, hang– being hang, drawn, and quartered, uh, existed from 1241 to 1782–

Christine: Oh jeez.

Em: –in case anyone wanted to know like did this ev– how did this happen?

Christine: Half a millennia?

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] 500 years. Half– Yeah. Well, half– Is a millennia a thousand years? Yeah.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: It was removed as a sentencing style in 1870, which is crazy that it was–

Christine: Wow.

Em: It was almost a hundred years later that it–

Christine: Well, you think about like firing squads and stuff that are still technically, you know–

Em: Yeah, yeah.

Christine: –legal in certain places.

Em: Well, so it was– it existed for another hundred years as a sentencing style, but I think at that point people were like, “We don’t wanna do this anymore,” so. [chuckles]

Christine: “It's like not really the vibe anymore.”

Em: So they just officially took it off the list of options in 1870. It was used for those who, uh, committed high treason. It was considered the ultimate punishment. And interestingly, it’s not hanged, drawn, and quartered. The process is more drawn, hanged, a bonus experience, and then quartered. So–

Christine: Ah, see– Okay. ’Cause I always wondered because I thought, “Well, if it’s hanged, at least you’re hanged first–“

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: “–then the rest.” But no? Okay, never mind.

Em: So being drawn is the best part of it–

Christine: Oh.

Em: –um, where you are tied behind a horse and you get dragged to the gallows, usually from the prison you were in, um–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –which could be several miles away, and you’re, you’re being dragged by a horse, not by like a fast car. So it’s taking hours.

Christine: Well, and you’re like tied, right?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like by the ankle or something. Yeah.

Em: Yeah, you’re bound and dragged. And sometimes it was like on essentially a sled, so it’s not like your back is getting ripped up on the ground, but I’m sure there was a time a sled wasn’t used. And it’s a horse, so it’s, it’s taking longer than how long it would take us to travel a couple miles.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And I guess during this whole thing, people paraded around you and threw trash at you. [chuckles]

Christine: I was gonna say, I’m sure they’re just throwing shit at– rocks at you and shit.

Em: Yeah, yeah.

Christine: Not cute.

Em: So that’s the best part. Um, and you almost hope that someone throws a rock hard enough right at your head and you black out and don’t experience the rest.

Christine: You almost hope. Um–

Em: You almost hope. Um, ’cause what’s coming is not great. So then you get to the gallows. You are intentionally hanged poorly so that you slowly suffocate–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –but your neck does not snap.

Christine: Oh, I didn’t understand that part. Fuck, dude.

Em: So um, they– and then they don’t even hang you to kill you ever. They just kill you to torture you– or they just hang you to torture you. So for like 20 minutes to a half an hour, they just let you hang there slowly, not being able to breathe–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and going in and out of consciousness.

Christine: Oh, I didn’t know that.

Em: Then they cut you down for the bonus experience. The bonus experience is, you know, you, again, hope that they were able to suffocate you ’cause this part you really, really don’t wanna experience. Your genitals are cut off. You’re awake the whole time, by the way, if you didn’t– if you survived the hanging situation. Your genitals are cut off and thrown into a fire before your very eyes. Your stomach is cut open, and your intestines are pulled out–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –thrown into– also thrown into a fire. Your heart is cut out and thrown into a fire. So at least now, I’m pretty sure you’re dead. Then you’re decapitated, and the heads of the most notable people, as we know, were put on spikes–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –to be a warning to others. And then, um, the quartering is interesting ’cause you’re not even a-awake for it, um, because you’re, you’re now for sure not with us. But that’s when your body is quartered into four pieces. Usually, um, that means your legs and arms are cut off. But this is the fun fact I didn’t know. They are then preserved and– like they’re boiled with like spices and stuff and preserved and then “taken–“ this is a quote from the article, “taken on a publicity tour to–“

Christine: Excuse me?

Em: “–to let everyone know what happens to people who challenged the authority of the king, because there was no media or newspapers back then,” so the quartering and distributing the body parts was the way that they would go to towns and let you know that– don’t fuck with the king. So that’s another reason why it stopped being used, even though a hundred years time it was still an acceptable sentencing style. It– They already had– They had newspapers, so they didn’t have to like do this thing to your body and then physically go display it to people. They could just write about it.

Christine: Yeah, so it was meant to be like, “look at what happens to you.”

Em: Yes.

Christine: Like, “Look how we can totally take–“ Oh, it’s so fucking dark, dude.

Em: But as newspapers came out and people were able to read more, they didn’t need that. They could just like write the threat. You know what I mean? [chuckles]

Christine: Right, right. And like you don’t need to prove–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –it with the limbs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Um, a lot of people think that quartering is when all four of your limbs are tied to different horses and all the horses run in different directions.

Christine: That’s what I always thought.

Em: Apparently, that’s true in some areas, but that did not happen in England that we know of.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Um–

Christine: Okay.

Em: And it was maybe more of a torture style than a, um, than a killing– than an execution.

Christine: So the drawing, was that the being dragged?

Em: Yeah. So it was like be– you’re– Essentially the horse-drawn carriage. You’re being drawn.

Christine: Okay.

Em: Um–

Christine: So you’re drawn, and then there’s the hanging, of course, and then the–

Em: The cutting and the mutilation.

Christine: What is that called?

Em: They don’t say it. It’s just called– They just say “hanged, drawn, and quartered,” but it’s– But they don’t–

Christine: Oh, so that– That’s just–

Em: I guess it’s part of the quartering. It’s that your whole body is coming apart.

Christine: [sighs]

Em: Yeah. Sorry. [chuckles]

Christine: Okay.

Em: Okay. So how are we? [chuckles] It gets better. Like it’s not– Like that’s the worst of it now. It’s in the past.

Christine: You, you literally said this is the best part. Oh, no, no. That was just the–

Em: Sorry.

Christine: –the horse.

Em: The– Yeah, the– certain– certainly the best in terms of, um, a gore factor, but now we’re, we’re done with talking about that. We’re back to the history of the castle.

Christine: [sighs] Okay, okay.

Em: Okay. Everyone’s cortisol levels can, can– They have permission to drop.

Christine: Please.

Em: So when, uh– So that’s what happened to Miles Corbett because he was just so hated. I mean, the king– He literally said, “Yeah, the king should die,” and then the king died, and then the new king was like, “Your turn.”

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So when he moved out of the way, uh– or moved out of the castle and died, the Talbots finally were able to move back in. So that’s why for the– that 11 years they weren’t living there is they were kicked out, and then they came right back.

Christine: And then they saw a press tour come through town with the guy’s limbs–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and they were like, “Oh, perfect. That must mean it’s back on the market.”

Em: Honestly, I’m kind of like, is that how they found out? Like–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: Um, and then, by the way, when they moved in, they, they then, um– What’s the quote? They “weakened the castle’s defenses” because as, as– it had gotten built up and built up and built up to be this great grand thing, but then they realized that this is attractive to bad people.

Christine: Totally.

Em: So–

Christine: Like to, to anyone with bad intention. Yeah.

Em: So they intentionally took a lot of that out of the way–

Christine: I see.

Em: –so that way nobody would wanna steal their house again.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and then they lived there until the 1970s. It’s now a museum. It’s an ev– an event venue, like a venue. Um–

Christine: Wow.

Em: –they host tours there, including paranormal investigations. And now I’m just talking about ghosts.

Christine: Yay.

Em: Sorry about the, the tough part there. Okay, ghosts. Here we go. So the staff and guests have e-experienced the classics: doors opening/closing, footsteps, clothes getting tugged at, temperature drops, laughter, and voices. People have felt nauseous in certain rooms. They've been locked into other rooms even though there’s no lock. Security has seen shadow figures on their cameras. It’s been thought that the castle– Because it’s near ley lines or because the castle is also built of limestone, which is a conductor for paranormal energy–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –they think those might be the reasons for its high activity, but they also– Like there have been like a lot of deaths over 800 years in that family–

Christine: I mean, and the amount of dr– Like just think about the emotions alone–

Em: Great point.

Christine: –in one family for 800 years.

Em: Also, think about how many fucking wars since 1185 and like how many times a– an important port and a castle has been involved in all that. And a lot of those–

Christine: Totally true.

Em: –a lot of the people who have owned that castle had to like go into battle. A lot of people lost their lives. There was actually one event that happened in the castle where like 14 of the family members, um, all died in battle the same day–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and they all lived in the castle, and none of them came home the same day.

Christine: Oh my god. I mean, like– [sighs]

Em: So there’s a lot of grief and tragedy mixed into this place.

Christine: Yes, yes.

Em: Um, so it’s said that there are five most notable spirits here. I’m kind of confused because the way that I’m reading this, it sounds more like six. Excuse me.

Christine: Okay.

Em: But let me know what you think. So the first one’s obviously Miles Corbett. He– You know, I gotta give him credit where credit’s due. He’s an original ghost, um, because people see him in his military armor, um, walking around the castle, but before he vanishes, he collapses to the ground into four parts–

Christine: [gasps] Shut the fuck up.

Em: –as if he was just quartered. And apparently, they’re like bloody parts too. It’s like kind of gross.

Christine: He’s like, “What became of me.” Oh my god, that is so creepy, dude. What?

Em: It’s so creepy. But again, finally, I mean, how many times do I say, “We saw a ghost standing there”? At least he’s doing something different.

Christine: I mean, and really like that’s a direct correlation to his literal story, so yeah.

Em: Yeah. And also like he was not that great of a guy either. So I’m sure some people are kind of like, “Good, good to know that that’s what’s happening in the afterlife for you.” I don’t know.

Christine: Yeah. “Good to know. I need to watch it in my own hallway.”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, that’s a great point. Imagine you’re just like in your PJs–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and your like bunny slippers and you go get a glass of water and you just have to–

Christine: “It’s Christmas morning! Oh my god.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] “Santa came! Oh my gosh.”

Em: I think that’s the funniest thing you’ve said in a long–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: That makes up for that J.Jill shit, I’ll tell you. That, [laughs] that was good.

Christine: Thank god. I felt like I was trapped in a purgatory of my own design after that J.Jill joke.

Em: [laughs] You know, I do get the Santa reference. I’ve, I’ve experienced that before.

Christine: Oh, thank god. I try. I’ve– I’m so niche that I came all the way around–

Em: And you know what? You sh–

Christine: –and ended up with fucking Santa Claus.

Em: You should never apologize for being niche or whatever Blaise said.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: That’s a good man, Christine.

Christine: It wasn’t, it wasn’t Blaise. It was his friend who said it. [laughs]

Em: Oh! This whole time I was like, “I’m so glad you married him.” Now I’m like, “You should marry that guy.” Um–

Christine: I know. And Blaise, Blaise said, “Nobody gets that joke.” [laughs]

Em: It did sound a little out of character, but I was like, “Sometimes Blaise does like really have some heavy hitters. He’s–” So I was like–

Christine: He does.

Em: –“That’s lovely.”

Christine: He– But he, he take– He’s, he’s cautious with those. He doesn’t wanna give me the wrong idea.

Em: I–

Christine: He doesn’t want me going on with more and more niche Sims references around his friends where they have to pretend like they understand what I’m saying. He’s like, “Cut it out actually.”

Em: Allison knows better than to give me permission to be niche because then like–

Christine: See what I mean?

Em: –the floodgates open. Yeah.

Christine: But then like her friends are probably nice and like, “Yeah, you can be as niche as you want,” and Allison’s like, “Actually, cut it out.”

Em: Her friends are so nice, and it’s undeserved with the way that I talk to them. [laughs]

Christine: That’s what it is with the, the– Blaise’s friend where I’m like, “I don’t deserve that, but thank you for the kindness.”

Em: I know that there’s a text chain somewhere where Allison’s friends are like, “What was that thing that– What? What were we talk– Re–“

Christine: “Did anybody else–“ [laughs]

Em: “Were you actually laughing at that? ’Cause I didn’t get it.” Um–

Christine: “We all laughed at that.”

Em: “It’s kind of funny how like nobody just said, ‘I don’t understand.’”

Christine: “Like, who is J.Jill anyway?”

Em: [laughs]

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Em: So yeah, he falls apart into four bloody pieces–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –even if Santa’s there, which is crazy. So–

Christine: Crazy.

Em: And I also heard a different– One source said that he only appears on his death anniversary, which I never understand that shit when they say–

Christine: That annoys me.

Em: –“He only appears on this day.” I’m like, I’m pretty sure he’s not checking his calendar in the afterlife.

Christine: It, it’s weird to me.

Em: And I don’t even think time means anything in the afterlife.

Christine: Like– Yeah. I’m like, I guess I could understand it in a certain way if there were some sort of like weird celestial imprint that the stars were like– Sure, okay, whatever. But like the idea of like, [in a dramatic voice] “every year on the day of his death,” I’m like, I don’t know.

Em: And also if that were fucking true, I’m sorry, but like there would have been a camera crew in there ready to get evidence of that on his death anniversary.

Christine: At one of these days, yeah.

Em: Like if I– if we were going ghost hunting and they said, “Only on his death day do you see him on the stairs,” I’d be like, “then we’re sitting on the stairs all night until he appears,” otherwise like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –debunked.

Christine: I wonder– I know, but I wonder if it’s like, you know, when you have like– say somebody in your family passes and like on their death anniversary you might get like signs you know–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –or you might get like– But, but that feels more personal. Like that feels more like, “Oh, they’re checking in on me to make sure I’m okay,” not like, “Oh, he’s back for his annual, uh, pantomime of his horrible murder.”

Em: Sure. [laughs]

Christine: I mean, I don’t know. It just feels like, why would you do that?

Em: Sure.

Christine: I mean, maybe he doesn’t have a choice, I guess. But it’s strange. It’s strange.

Em: Sure, that’s a good point. Well, he is the– one of the most popular ghosts there. I say the ghosts– There’s two– How would I say this? I’m, I’m just gonna say ghosts two and three because they’re part of the same story. There’s, uh, a woman who haunts this, uh, castle called Lady Maud Plunkett, which just feels like–

Christine: Oh, please.

Em: –a Mother Goose rhyme or something.

Christine: So good. Totally.

Em: Lady Maud Plunkett sat on a trumpet or something. Um–

Christine: [laughs] Eating her crumpet. Yeah, it actually really works. It does.

Em: [laughs] Uh, before she married into the Talbot family– So that’s how she ended up in this castle. She married a Talbot. Before that, she was engaged to another man named Walter Hussey. Love that.

Christine: Hello.

Em: Hey, girl. Happy Pride. And Walter Hussey was also known as Lord Galtrim, ’cause they always have to have a fancy name.

Christine: Love that.

Em: And so Lady Maud Plunk-Plunkett and Lord Galtrim, they were gonna get married. However, on their wedding day, Lord Galtrim died in battle, which like why are you working on your wedding day?

Christine: [laughs] He’s like, “Hang on, I’ll be right there.”

Em: [chuckles] “Sorry, I have to clock in real quick for a morning shift. I’ll be back for the wedding.”

Christine: “I gotta get a quick shower before my wedding though. So–“

Em: [laughs] Like that’s the shower you need before your wedding. It’s like, “Get in the pond and get all that blood off you.”

Christine: It’s like, “Really. Please just like put your limbs back together. My god.”

Em: So they say that he, uh– There’s two versions. One is that he died in battle. One is that he died in an ambush from com– from rival people or something. But whatever. Either way, he was stabbed and died immediately, and he couldn’t make it to his wedding. Very sad.

Christine: [laughs] He couldn’t make it. Yeah, thanks.

Em: Couldn’t make it. He was busy. Um–

Christine: He, he s– was stabbed and died immediately, and he actually didn’t make it to the wedding. Thank you.

Em: [chuckles] And the worst part is he didn’t get to the wedding.

Christine: This is the plot twist.

Em: [chuckles] So– But here’s the, here’s the plot twist. Right after his wedding, like within 24 hours–

Christine: There was no wedding. What do you mean?

Em: Right after–

Christine: Or like right after the day.

Em: Right after the day where everyone was gathered except him, wondering where he was–

Christine: Oh, I see.

Em: –um, within like– within 24 hours, right after his death, Maud marries another man. Yeah, that’s the plot twist.

Christine: Girl…

Em: And it was Mr. Talbot, which is how she ends up in the castle.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Um, and I guess– It’s interesting because the story, if I’m understanding it correctly, they– her and Lord Galtrim, had he not died, they were going to get married at the Talbots’s castle because the Talbots were like family friends in some way.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And then he didn’t show up. She ended up marrying Mr. Talbot in his own castle within 24 hours. And I think the, the reason why they were able to marry so quickly is because, um, Mr. Talbot was also vying for the affection of Lady Maud Plunkett, and Lord Galtrim was the one that she ended up choosing between the two of them.

Christine: Did he get him killed?

Em: We don’t know. But that’s, that’s part of the mystery.

Christine: Hey, I know. [chuckles]

Em: I mean, he’s like, “She’s in my castle, marrying a different guy, and I’m in love with her. And if he’s out of the picture, I can literally marry her in my own home today with all of our families gathered. Um, and he just casually happened to die today–“

Christine: He accidentally died today.

Em: “–on the way to the wedding.”

Christine: “Oops.”

Em: I mean, I’m, I’m no Barbara Walters, but I’m pretty sure I’ve, I’ve got a, a finger on the pulse here.

Christine: I’m extremely confident about my take on this one. Yeah.

Em: So she– Mult–

Christine: But, but also I guess I would need more con-context on this battle. Like he died in battle, and everyone was like, “Where is he?”

Em: Right.

Christine: It’s like, well, if there’s a fucking battle, what do you mean where like–

Em: Yeah. Or, or he was ambushed. I kind of lean– I’m leaning more– ’Cause, again–

Christine: Oh, amb– See, if it’s an ambush, then I’m thinking, hello.

Em: The two versions are either it was in battle or he was ambushed by people and got stabbed.

Christine: Hm…

Em: Um, which I feel like the ambush is more likely. I mean, I don’t think soldiers can like take time off from battle, even today, but like I would imagine on your wedding day, you just like find a way to not get to work.

Christine: Well, it– Yeah, the whole thing is strange. Like what you battle– Like wouldn’t you post– Whatever. I don’t know. Listen, I don’t fucking know.

Em: Wouldn’t you at least say like, “Count me out, folks. I’m not gonna be in this one”?

Christine: Just a wild, uh, timeline.

Em: I would like to know the military history of when people were like expected to miss all–

Christine: When it’s like normal to just like be in a battle on your wedding day and accidentally die.

Em: Or even like– even today where it’s like, well, you have to work around like a soldier’s schedule because like they don’t get to pick their days off or– I, I mean, I don’t know. I don’t– I really know nothing about like how the military operates. But when the military– Before it was “the military,” I feel like in the 1700s, someone could just say like, “I’m not gonna make it to this battle.” like there was, there was a time before there were all these strict rules, right?

Christine: Yeah, but I bet you there were all sorts of weird like unwritten rules about like, “oh, you would be then trea– It would be treason or–“

Em: It’d be dishonor.

Christine: Maybe, maybe written rules. I don’t know. Like you don’t wanna be drawn and fucking quartered or whatever like that other guy.

Em: That’s true. That’s true. Anyway, so he ended up taking advantage of the situation to be like, “Oh, don’t cry that your husband’s dead. Everyone’s here for your wedding, and I’m in love with you, and you could be in this castle with me if we all got married right now.”

Christine: “And it’s really weird that I’m wearing a tuxedo that matches all of the–“

Em: [laughs] Yeah. “It’s so weird I have a wedding ring in my pocket."

Christine: “Oh my god, what? It’s so crazy.”

Em: Um, so she ends up– A lot of sources say that she’s the woman who was a maiden, widow, and wife all in one day.

Christine: Whoa.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: That's pretty wild.

Em: So, uh, Lady Plunkett, she ends up, you know, not marrying the first guy. She ends up marrying Mr. Talbot.

Christine: Technically, not a widow.

Em: That’s what I’m saying. Okay, you’re with me on this. But for the, the flair, I suppose, people were like, “Well, she would have been a widow.”

Christine: I get i– I-It’s gonna kill Em, just the way 791 years is not 800–

Em: It–

Christine: –does not 800 years make. You know what I mean?

Em: It will ruin my sleep.

Christine: This story is really grinding your gears.

Em: Thank you for seeing me. I feel so s–

Christine: You’re welcome.

Em: I feel heard. Um–

Christine: I’m so glad. That’s all I want.

Em: So after Mr. Talbot and, and Maud got married, he ended up dying. So now she’s got the castle. Woohoo!

Christine: Oh, so now she’s a widow.

Em: Now she’s a widow–

Christine: Officially.

Em: –and she’s got a whole castle to herself. She ends up marrying a third man who is, I guess, a judge in the area, but their relationship was very tumultuous. So–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –this gets us back to the ghosts. Lady Maud Plunkett herself is a ghost in the castle. A lot of people also see the ghost of her third husband, the judge, because–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –I guess they were known to be kind of, um, toxic with each other, and people still hear them fighting for eternity.

Christine: Oh, how irritating.

Em: Exhausting.

Christine: I mean, really. Like we can’t.

Em: Exhausting. Um, peo–

Christine: Like give it a rest, literally.

Em: Some people say, um, that you can hear people arguing in empty rooms. You hear doors slamming. People literally have seen–

Christine: [groans]

Em: –Maud chasing after her husband when he’s like leaving one of the rooms. So like she’s like following him–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –like the fight isn’t over.

Christine: It’s just so bummer.

Em: [groans] Exhausting, exhausting.

Christine: Such a bummer.

Em: Um, so you see the two of them, but you also– Ghost number four. You see Sir Walter Hussey, aka Lord Galtrim, the guy that died–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –the day of his wedding.

Christine: Yep.

Em: Um, he is now said to appear on the upper floors of the castle, sometimes holding his side where he was stabbed–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –or showing you his stab wound. No, thank you. Just point to it.

Christine: Ye– But we already saw a guy fall into four pieces.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: I think I’ve had enough of this for today.

Em: I think just show me with your words. Just–

Christine: Like less show and tell, right? Less show, more tell. How’s that?

Em: Just say, “It hurts right here.” Or like–

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: –just because some– one guy is falling into literal chunks doesn’t mean we all need to be the goriest possible.

Christine: We can all maybe realize that’s not the energy that we need to be–

Em: I feel like–

Christine: –amplifying today.

Em: –that guy made you think you have permission to also be a little over the top–

Christine: Totally.

Em: –but like we don’t have to either.

Christine: Totally. Like let’s just take a breath first.

Em: Everyone, breathe it out. Yes. So he sometimes shows you the stab wound or at least points to what hurts. Um, he’s often heard groaning, probably because he was fucking stabbed to death, but others say–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –it’s because he’s heartbroken that he had to watch his fiance–

Christine: No.

Em: –marry so quickly after his death.

Christine: Yeah. No, I think he fucking got stabbed is probably why.

Em: [chuckles] I would say I– there’s a lot of reasons to groan, but probably first on the dome for me would be I– that I’m in pain.

Christine: Which one would take precedent in the moment? I would argue maybe the one–

Em: I agree.

Christine: –that killed you.

Em: I agree with you. There’s, um, also a ghost called the White Lady, and–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –there’s a woman in a white dress. Uh, I guess there’s a painting of her in the castle, and the story goes that this is an unidentifiable woman painted by an unidentifiable painter. It’s just– was found hanging in the castle.

Christine: Oh, that’s kind of cool and creepy.

Em: Even creepier is that it’s said that this woman in the white dress leaves her painting at night and is seen–

Christine: Ahh!

Em: –wandering the castle. Uh–

Christine: No. And then they’re like, “Who painted this? No, seriously, guys.”

Em: [chuckles] It’s like–

Christine: “Who painted this?”

Em: “Who the fuck paint– Did you paint it with a curse? With your– with like a–“

Christine: Like, yeah–

Em: “–a– with a blood spell something?”

Christine: “Henry, if this was a third grade school project, I’m not gonna be mad, but I need to know.”

Em: [laughs] “We just–“

Christine: “You need to tell me honestly.”

Em: “Tell me very clearly.”

Christine: “The magical painting is scaring everybody.”

Em: [laughs] “Why are you giggling in the corner, Henry?”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “I don’t like that. We don’t like that.”

Christine: “You know what I told you about giggling in the corner.”

Em: [laughs] Um, it’s said that the woman– uh, she leaves her painting. The painting is apparently gone, but she is still seen. And I’m kind of wondering if this is the same ghost as Maud because some versions were saying Maud can be seen still in her wedding gown. And so I’m like, well, then she’s a Lady in White.

Christine: Mm.

Em: But wouldn’t people know what Maud looks like versus like this random woman in a painting?

Christine: Yeah, this always feels like that endless thing we go through of like, well, who’s who and are they the same or are they separate entities or do they like merge? Yeah, weird.

Em: That’s kind of why I don’t know if this is four ghosts or five because they say–

Christine: Right.

Em: –the Lady in White or the White Lady is, is her own ghost, but I’m like, maybe it’s, maybe it’s also Maud and we just don’t know.

Christine: Like appearing in two different spots or something. Yeah.

Em: So there might be more than five, the l– the White Lady being one of them. Another random one is that there’s a, a former worker who is seen on cold nights by the fire. There’s, there’s a lot of randos, but the, um, the last, most popular one, his name is Puck, and he was–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –as you recall from earlier, the Talbots’s family jester.

Christine: [gasps] I didn’t re– You said, “as you recall,” blank, blank, blank. Uh–

Em: Someone did. Someone was like, “Where the fuck is the jester? Oh, come on.”

Christine: Took me ’til two seconds after the jester mention that I recognized what was happening. Okay, so the jester, Puck. Interesting.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Okay. Very on the nose. Got it.

Em: He was also the family watchman because I guess the castle was still used– Uh, I guess the Talbots and the king were still close, and the king would have the Talbots watch over political prisoners in their castle ’cause they had a free dungeon.

Christine: Oh, nice.

Em: Free dungeon, might as well put strange criminals in there.

Christine: Might as well.

Em: And so when the jester wasn’t feeling too silly, he was the fucking guard. [laughs] He was–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Ima– But you know security guards are funny as shit, so like–

Christine: Okay, but I have a question. Do you think it was–

Em: He just found a way to make two jobs out of it.

Christine: Do you think it was that way? Or do you think like chicken and egg, was it like he was a security guard and then he just was like just cracking these guys up and they were like–

Em: Maybe.

Christine: –“You gotta come upstairs for dinner sometime and like really tell us a few jokes.”

Em: Maybe. I can’t imagine it was that way because I’d be like, “This security guard’s a little too chummy, a little too–“

Christine: True.

Em: “–playful with the–“

Christine: I don’t think like– “That’s not your place,” you know?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I’d be like, “You gotta tighten that shit up.” But they cou–

Christine: Yeah, “Tighten that shit up.”

Em: –could have also said, “How about for ten more bucks you, you save that and you bring it upstairs when you’re done down here?” I don’t know.

Christine: Totally. “Save that energy. Don’t give it f– Don’t give it away for free.”

Em: Yeah, exactly. I don’t know. I don’t know what, what happened first, but he was–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –somehow both. Um, he contains multitudes as we’ve learned, so.

Christine: Uh, just like a Gemini, really.

Em: So–

Christine: I relate to this guy.

Em: [chuckles] He lived in one of the towers. He oversaw the political prisoners. One of the people that was staying there that he was supposed to supervise was Lady Eleanora Fitzgerald who was only there–

Christine: For sure.

Em: –because she was like a rebel. She was just maybe inciting some riots or something. I don’t know. She was protesting. Like I–

Christine: What do you mean?

Em: Like she wasn’t there for like a violent crime or anything. She just had some political differences.

Christine: Oh, she was in the pri– I don’t know why in my brain she was just visiting the castle and he was meant to just like look after her–

Em: Sh– [chuckles]

Christine: –and then you, you said–

Em: Sorry.

Christine: –you– and then I realized you– prisoner, okay. She was just–

Em: She was technically visiting behind bars.

Christine: [chuckles] She was visiting against her will.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Got it. Okay.

Em: So while Puck is supposed to watch her, he accidentally fell in love with her. Whoopsies.

Christine: Yuck. Okay.

Em: And, you know, she was getting a personal– like a private jesting event all the time. He was just there–

Christine: She was like–

Em: –cracking jokes and being charming.

Christine: Man...

Em: And she was like [sighs].

Christine: He’s– He was suddenly like making new mate–

Em: “These bars are the only thing separating us.”

Christine: Wow. How he was like writing new material, and she–

Em: For sure.

Christine: Like his friends were like, “What’s gotten into?” you know?

Em: Pe– Oh my god. You know what’s so funny though? Imagine as a security guard, you know like when you clock out here you have to be a jester, you know that some of those prisoners were getting his like test out jokes–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and that was part of the torture maybe where they’re like–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –“Oh my god.”

Christine: And that would be, wouldn’t it? And then like if something flops at dinner at least you have more torture for the next day at work.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Like if a joke flops for the king or whatever–

Em: I wonder–

Christine: –then you can go downstairs.

Em: You know if I was held prisoner there and the person watching me is a guy trying to crack jokes, oh, I’m laughing so hard.

Christine: [chuckles] I know. We’re like–

Em: I’m like, “Oh, maybe if I laugh so hard–“

Christine: –“That’s so funny.”

Em: “–maybe you will–“

Christine: “Can you hold my hand?”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: “The one with the key in it?” [laughs]

Em: [laughs] It’s like– “It’s so funny. Maybe we could be friends if only I survived.”

Christine: “Other hand?” [chuckles] Yeah.

Em: “Maybe you could get me out of here.”

Christine: Yeah, “Maybe I’ll give you a smooch.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs] Well, so he falls in love with, uh, Lady Eleanora Fitzgerald. And–

Christine: Oh, dear.

Em: –either he– We don’t really know what happened, but I guess the story goes that they would have never been able to be together even if she wasn’t a, a prisoner.

Christine: Right.

Em: I think like their status, he was never allowed to probably be with someone like her. Um, so either because he was devastated that he failed at his job of being a good overseer–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –or because he knew he could never be with her and he was heartbroken, some say he, um, died by suicide. Um–

Christine: Oh dear.

Em: –but others say that he was murdered because all we know is he was later found in his tower stabbed in the heart.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Could have been like a Romeo/Juliet situation where he tried to end it all. But someone else–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –could have probably hurt him – maybe one of the Talbots who knew that they were getting a little too close and they felt like he broke loyalty or something with the family–

Christine: [groans]

Em: –by being friends with a prisoner and maybe–

Christine: Right.

Em: –that would insult the king, and then the king would have to yell at the Talbots about it or– Who knows.

Christine: Oh my god. Yeah, that just– that feels a little– Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what to– how to feel about this.

Em: Don’t know how to place it.

Christine: Doesn’t feel like a suicide–

Em: No.

Christine: –in that sense, but–

Em: No. That's a pretty gruesome s– way to go also.

Christine: But also like the clown– like the jester archetype of like, like– I mean, this is– Talk about niche, but like the Pagliacci opera, you know? No?

Em: [sighs] Oh, Chris–

Christine: Okay. Uh, so–

Em: You’re always just out of the way. You, you– And you always dive right back into like having to be questioned.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: What are you talking about?

Christine: There’s an opera about a clown, and he is called Pagliacci. And he goes to the town doctor, and he says, “Doctor, doctor, I’m so depressed. Nothing can cure me.” And the doctor said to him, “Oh, I have just a thing. Have you heard? The famous Pagliacci is in town, and he is just the one to cheer you up,” and the man said, “But doctor, I am Pagliacci.”

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Yeah. So it’s about a suicidal clown or like court jester or clown guy.

Em: Oh my god. Well–

Christine: It was one of my childhood stories growing up. That’s not a joke.

Em: Yeah, that tracks for sure.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, wow. That was really– Okay.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Feel like we have to think about everything now. Um–

Christine: So that was the story actually– My dad every Christmas would read us a story about somebody dying. Um, it sounds like a joke; it’s not a joke. Uh, we’d read a story about either someone committing suicide or, um, dying before like– before saying their final words or like before getting their fi– like something just like really awful, right? And so that was one of the stories, and it was always just very dark.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But it was like the idea that like pe– someone who entertains others can be very dark underneath and hav– deep–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –you know. So, so that–

Em: I mean, also it falls–

Christine: –that trope is there too.

Em: Yeah. It falls in the trope of like– I mean, even like a Robin Williams of like people who are really–

Christine: Yes, the comedian. Exactly.

Em: –really funny are experiencing some darkness.

Christine: I think maybe that would have been a more relevant reference for everybody to kind of cling on to.

Em: No, instead you decided to say Jill Jack or Jill J or whatever.

Christine: Yeah. Uh-huh.

Em: That wasn’t risky enough. Let’s go with the poly–

Christine: No, no. I’m just fucking flying directly– I’m–

Em: –operatic suicidal clown. That’s– [chuckles]

Christine: –yeeting myself into the sun at this point, and we’re not gonna find me ever again.

Em: You know what? I gotta give you a round of applause on your tenacity though. You really say–

Christine: Thank you. Thank you.

Em: –“Let’s find out, let’s find out together,” every time.

Christine: Well, let’s FAFO.

Em: [chuckles] Exactly right. You know what? And now we’re all wiser. Now we know about Pagliacci.

Christine: You’re all a little more bummed out though too.

Em: And yet I feel the need to thank you.

Christine: Thanks.

Em: So–

Christine: You’re welcome.

Em: –I don’t really– You’ve really messed with all the ways that I think now. Um–

Christine: That’s just powerful. It’s powerful stuff.

Em: Well, [sighs] Puck was stabbed in the heart, and we don’t know how, why, when. And he is still alive when he’s found.

Christine: Oh! And he– Oh no. Okay.

Em: And when they find him, he has some last words. And they’re not–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –“This is who did it to me,” or anything like that.

Christine: Oh.

Em: Instead, apparently– This has to be flair created by a paranormal investigator. Instead, his last words are that he’s going to haunt the castle until a Talbot man marries a woman of the people–

Christine: Oh, please give me a break.

Em: –aka until a Talbot finds love with someone for who they are and not because of societal expectations ’cause that’s not what he could have with Lady Eleanora Fitzgerald. He–

Christine: Right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That feels like–

Em: He couldn’t have her for– because of society. Um, he apparently–

Christine: Nonsense.

Em: –also added the caveat that while he haunts the castle, he’ll never harm a Talbot. He went–

Christine: No, here’s what happened.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: A Talbot killed him–

Em: [laughs] Thank you.

Christine: –and said, “Here’s what his final words were.”

Em: Thank you. 100%.

Christine: “I actually– Weirdly, they’re in my handwriting–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–but that’s ’cause I was just like noting them down as he said them.”

Em: You fucking nailed exactly what I was thinking. ’Cause I’m like–

Christine: Like, come on.

Em: –like, who the hell– And you know, I wonder– ’Cause he’s a– he– I’m sure if a Talbot is the one who said that, um, who’s like, “No, no, no. He said all these really nice things about us–”

Christine: Yeah, “He loves u– He fucking loves us.”

Em: –whoever he told that to probably questioned it and went, “I’m not gonna fuck with the guy who just stabbed someone in the heart.”

Christine: Yeah. I totally bet like–

Em: He went, “You’re right. How nice. I’ll spread the good news.”

Christine: “Are we all understanding? Let’s all be in unison and say, ‘Got it.’”

Em: [groans] He, um– [sighs] Yikes.

Christine: Yikes.

Em: So now he’s deemed as like a protector of the castle, uh, this–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –this Puck guy. He’s also now often seen in photos. He likes to take pictures with people. He’s been spotted around the property climbing the stairs or pacing outside. Uh, in the 1970s, he was the most active ’cause that’s when the castle was being cleared out and all– a lot of the contents were being sold out of the building. And that was– He did not like that and how ghosts like don’t like–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –the change of the–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So he was really, really showing up around then. But he– to this day as a museum, he likes to play pranks on the staff. He’s said to be very mischievous. He’ll, um, hide items. He’ll tug on your shirt. Lights will flicker. Other spirits that people see around here are a monk walking around–

Christine: Eugh.

Em: –and they hear chanting because there used to be an abbey nearby.

Christine: Ooh.

Em: Um, they hear piano playing because a former resident who lived there was a piano player. Um, in some rooms, people hear knocking and rattling. In the old dungeon, they hear crying and groaning. In the gardens, there are two phantom women that fade away together. Gay, happy Pride.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um–

Christine: Together?

Em: [chuckles] And there’s also a couple seen holding hands. I’m gonna pretend they’re gay. Happy Pride.

Christine: Same couple maybe? I don’t know.

Em: They’re holding hands. They fade into the mist. That’d be precious. And then there–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: –is the ghost of a man crouching. No, thank you.

Christine: Okay, forget it.

Em: Investigators have gotten intelligent responses on spirit boxes and using EVP. Uh, one ghost has– Uh, one example of this is a ghost correctly stated how many people were in the room when they asked for that information. Um, there’s a, a door in one of the rooms, uh, I think in like the event space or the place that’s now like a venue– There’s a door that used to be Puck’s door, I think–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –like to his tower. I’m not sure. It was just where he maybe kept his jester toys. I don’t know. Um, but if you knock on it now, you’re supposed to get good luck out of it. Um–

Christine: That feels like a trap.

Em: That feels like a trap to me too. It’s like, I think you’re just trying to– You’re knocking on mischievous Puck’s door–

Christine: I fee–

Em: –to be like, “Oh, come play with us.”

Christine: Totally. It feels like an invitation. I’m not doing that.

Em: Yeah. It’s– I, I feel like you’re gonna make him do something playful–

Christine: Like you’re cal–

Em: –or personal.

Christine: –you’re summoning him, doesn’t it? I feel like you’re summoning him.

Em: And guess what happened? And guess who it happened to?

Christine: Don’t even.

Em: Lizzo.

Christine: What?

Em: Apparently, she went and did a tour here, knocked on Puck’s door, and lost her goddamn phone. [laughs] And she went– She knocked on his door, and this is a quote from her: “He took my phone–” Talking about Puck. “He took my phone. They looked all over the castle for it. Then when we called it, it was in my dancer’s pocket outside.”

Christine: No.

Em: Like it had transported outside of the castle.

Christine: That is trickster energy. That’s huge. I mean, that’s very jester-like, I would say.

Em: Which part of me is like, oh, well, maybe the dancer like always had in the pocket or played a prank or whatever. But in the interview, she says like, “I was just taking pictures with my phone and then I couldn’t find it and–“

Christine: No, like I feel like that’s usually– Also like why would the dancer have Lizzo’s phone? Like that should not–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I don’t think that would happen. I feel like that would not happen. That’s really weird. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I’m not gonna be knocking on that. No, thanks.

Em: So, uh, anyway, that is Malahide Castle.

Christine: That was so good.

Em: Oh, thank you.

Christine: Yeah, I really liked that. We got some like dark shit with the quartering and all that nonsense and– [sighs] I don’t know, man. Some of those– Would you go there overnight, do you think?

Em: I think so. I don’t know. I would–

Christine: I don’t know why. Something about castles like I just– I’m like, I don’t know about staying overnight in a castle.

Em: Well, castles for me, um, just freak me out because there’s– Like if, if we’re going to like the Sallie House here and the house is like maximum 70 years old–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –it’s different than when the h– the house is 1,000 years old and there’s just so much more room for other ghosts. I don’t know. It just–

Christine: I mean, yeah, you could–

Em: And also there’s– it’s so empty and cavernous. It feels really eerie.

Christine: And you would have like– [sighs] I mean, which is another problem we’ve ran into, like you would have like so many places you’d need to like–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –pare down where you would go and what strategies–

Em: Logistical nightmare.

Christine: –logistics. Oh my god. I would be a little freaked out, I think. Um, I think it’s a little too big scale for me. I don’t know.

Em: I agree.

Christine: I think I’d rather experience a smaller less like gory haunting as my first like castle experience, but–

Em: Agreed. Also in a castle–

Christine: Yeah. [sighs]

Em: –I mean, you just know people died there. Like– Even–

Christine: It– There’s already a dark history in like any castle, it feels like.

Em: Yeah. Or a dungeon, so there’s suffering. It’s, it’s different than like, “Oh, someone peacefully passed in their home, and–“

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Or like, “This family had it for so many years, and it was just filled with love and light–“

Em: Right.

Christine: “–and loss, but also love.” No, like there’s some war and battle and murder–

Em: And being a castle, it’s probably really isolated from other things. You’re just in the woods.

Christine: That’s also the thing. And I feel like at night that’s so spooky too.

Em: True.

Christine: Um, okay. I’m gonna go pee, and then I’m gonna pull up my Newspapers account and see if I can find the– And if I don’t, I’m sorry. I’ll say it in the episode so that you don’t like sign up for Patreon just to get that and then it’s like not there. But, um–

Em: Perfect.

Christine: – I’ll say it after– we’ll say it afterward. Find something else to talk about if I can’t find it, but I have a good feeling.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So see you in a minute.

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Christine’s Story – The Gemini Twins

Christine: So if you did not listen to the last half of, uh, last week’s episode, I do not blame you because it was a rather unhinged episode. It was our birthday episode, so it’s allowed to be unhinged. Um, and it was extra unhinged. But during my part, I had ta– uh, I briefly mentioned that I was going to be covering the Gemini Twins.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um, but I wasn’t gonna get to it last episode. So instead we talked about, uh, true crime astrology, which was really fun.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And if that’s not your bag, you know, that’s totally fine because I’m gonna cover the Gemini Twin story today instead.

Em: I’m so excited. This– Yeah, I remember you saying that you were gonna cover this, and then we yapped so much, you were like, [whispering] “We’ll do it next time.” So–

Christine: I was like, “Actually, um, do you wanna be here till 11 p.m.?”

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “No? Me neither. Okay.” And the whole world went, “No.” And I said, “Okay, okay, fine.”

Em: Perfect.

Christine: So we went over a lot more in depth instead into the astrology of serial killers and true crime, and it was a fun conversation. You know–

Em: Nice.

Christine: –we had fun. I mean, you were there, I think.

Em: I know. I mean, I was there–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –but I– thank you for reminding me because it has been like a week, so.

Christine: It has been a whole week, and you know how we are with time.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um, okay.

Em: I think we had fun.

Christine: So this is– [chuckles]

Em: I’m pretty sure we had fun.

Christine: We had fun. I think it was a good time.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Um, this is the story of the Gemini Twins, and it is actually pretty good. I didn’t do this on our birthdays because they’re not actually Geminis.

Em: Oh. Yeah, I’m glad that this isn’t, um– [sighs]

Christine: And I think that would have kind of–

Em: Good call.

Christine: –damp– it would have dampened the mood. So I was already kind of bracing for like a little bit of like, “Oh, I gotta kind of give you some–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “–downer news that like the theme isn’t even really on theme.” Um, but it’s perfect now because, uh, they’re not even Gemini to begin with. So that’s just what they’re called.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And I’m gonna tell you why. Anthony Senter, he was born on March 31, so he’s actually an Aries, uh, 1955 in Brooklyn. He was a son of Michael Senter, a northern Italian immigrant, [chuckles] and it just says in the– in basically any source, “and his wife.” So that’s nice.

Em: [laughs] You know what? I– So far, I– I’m a little offended, but maybe it’s best that she’s not involved in this.

Christine: I think you’re right. I think you’re correct. Anthony–

Em: Maybe she doesn’t wanna be involved.

Christine: You know what? She’s like, “Ta-take my name out of it actually. Fully.”

Em: Yeah. “Wife period.” Yeah.

Christine: “I’ll be the wife, and that’s it.”

Em: “Might as well put ‘ex’ in front of it while you’re at it.” I don’t know. [laughs]

Christine: Oh my god. Power move. So Anthony grew up in a turbulent home where his parents divorced when he was eight years old and then remarried each other again. Sorry, trigger warning to Em and only Em–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –’cause, um, Anthony and Em are the only people who have ever experienced that– [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –your parents marrying each other again, which like I’ve experienced that–

Em: That was–

Christine: –but it was a really vivid nightmare I had. Um–

Em: That was– I don’t– That was– I don’t even know what the right word is, but well done. That really– It, it felt, um, personal. Not like an attack. It just felt like, “Oh my god, you thought of me?” Like I don’t know. Like there’s something so sick with me.

Christine: It was, it was not derogatory.

Em: No.

Christine: It was– But it was also not not derogatory. [laughs]

Em: I just felt– It’s so– Like there’s something so twisted about me. I just felt so thought of all of a sudden. I was like, “Oh my god. I–”

Christine: Yeah. Well, because I–

Em: “Thanks for thinking–“

Christine: –I was like– Yeah, because I mean, hello. Like that’s not an experience that most people go through. And so when I see someone else experiencing that, I’m like, “Hey–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “–I know someone who went through that,” and it–

Em: Put us in touch ’cause I have things to talk about.

Christine: Well, I don’t think I’m gonna do that. So you’ll find out why. Already, you probably know.

Em: It sounds like he’s a murderer. Okay.

Christine: It sounds like he might just be. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Okay. So, uh, yeah, he grew up in a turbulent home, um, trigger warning to Em only–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –um, where his parents divorced and then remarried each other. So I guess turbulent home is a good word for what we’re experiencing. Okay.

Em: Sure. Yeah.

Christine: Dur– [laughs] During his youth, Anthony worked for his father’s debris removal business and his uncle Robert’s carting firm, the Canarsie Recycling Company, which had mob ties to the Gambino and Colombo crime families.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So on July 24, 1977, Anthony married an Italian-American woman in Canarsie, Brooklyn, and the wedding was attended by prominent mob figures. So you can see he’s almost like born into this like mob family, and–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –they’re attending his wedding, whole nine yards. Um, the Gambino crime family soldier, Roy Albert DeMeo, was one of the attendees, um, and he is gonna come back into the picture shortly. But real quick, I wanna jump over to the other Gemini Twin who’s also glaringly not a Gemini but is instead an Aquarius.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And you know, I can also speak to that if I have to, but Aquarius/Aries energy is interesting ’cause it’s sort of like– A-Aquarius is also an air sign, like we are, so there is a little bit of that like fanning the flames energy.

Em: Sure.

Christine: And at this point they haven’t connected yet, and we’re gonna see like ho– them connect, so.

Em: And remind me again what, um, Anthony’s was? What sign he was?

Christine: He’s an Aries.

Em: He’s also an Aries. Okay, gotcha. So–

Christine: No, no, Joseph Testa is an Aquarius. Sorry. So–

Em: But the, the other guy that we talked about just–

Christine: Oh, yeah. The other guy is an Aries. Yeah.

Em: Okay. Aries and Aquarius. Got it.

Christine: Yes, yes. So Joseph Carmine Testa Jr. was born on January 24, 1955 in New York City. He was one of nine children born to an Italian-American transport truck driver, father, and his wife. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Period.

Christine: Actually, it says “a housewife mother,” and I went–

Em: Ooh. Wow, that’s even worse.

Christine: –“Oh. This is just getting a little weird somehow. It’s worse.”

Em: We’re just actively not including her in any of this anymore.

Christine: “–and some dumb bitch,” we’ll put that instead.

Em: [chuckles] “Some–“

Christine: Um, okay. [chuckles]

Em: “Big B.” Yeah.

Christine: Joseph’s home life became highly turbulent as well, uh, in other ways, and he became a juvenile delinquent after his mother died of a sudden blood clot when he was only 13 years old.

Em: Oof.

Christine: One of Joseph’s younger brothers, Patrick, who went by “Patty,” Testa, also became, uh, involved in the crime lifestyle very young. He became pretty quickly a professional car thief and then graduated into a real life mobster. As a teenager, Joseph worked as a carpenter’s helper and as an apprentice butcher, and that, of course, gave him some mighty fine skills–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –of carving up dead things.

Em: Noted.

Christine: Noted. Anthony and Joseph, uh, grew up on the same block in Canarsie, Brooklyn, and it feels a little too much like the universe could have maybe stepped in and separated them a few blocks–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and maybe all this wouldn’t have happened, but whatever.

Em: Did they, um– You were probably gonna say this already. Did they know each other growing up or is it convenient that they were neighbors?

Christine: No, they knew each other. They were close friends. So they grew up like on the same block, uh, became BFFs–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –and both of them dropped out of high school and co-founded an auto theft and marijuana distribution ring.

Em: Fun. Okay.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Well, at least they’re doing something with their lives. Like the world’s hard.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Okay.

Christine: It’s called being an entrepreneur.

Em: That’s right. That’s exactly right. Nothing else.

Christine: Now, they had help from Joseph’s little brother, Patty. Remember the expert car thief?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So now they have this trio of like very skilled, in multiple different ways, uh, across the board, trio of young men who are like just looking to create problems–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –and steal stuff.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So by 1970, um, they’re 15 years old at this point. Okay? Uh, just to give some context. Um– Oh, my new Fallout Boy t-shirt was delivered.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Okay.

Em: Good.

Christine: Speaking of bisexual clothing. [laughs] Oh my god.

Em: I– I’m really happy for you. [laughs]

Christine: You know, the dumbest part is I was already like, “I wonder how short I should cut the sleeves.” Okay.

Em: Oh my god. Well.

Christine: I know. I’m– I know. I know. You’re correct. Okay.

Em: I think you’re just gonna cut them off. That’s what I– My feeling is off. What are you– Or what are you thinking?

Christine: I’m thinking–

Em: Like a little– Just like a little, like a little flare. A little–

Christine: I think I’m gonna want a little f– just a little flare. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. Yeah, you do–

Christine: I’m thinking a little angular.

Em: You got– Start there, and if we don’t like it, we get it– cut it shorter. It’s that ea–

Christine: Thank you.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: You know, and I’m, I’m, I’m working on the biceps. We’ll get there someday.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: It’s no rush. Okay. Anyway, they become close friends, drop out of high school, create this, uh, auto theft and marijuana distribution ring, and they have this sidekick of Patty, the little brother. So by 1970, at age 15, Anthony and Joseph have already been arrested multiple times for car theft, but because they were so young, it was pretty much dismissed every time. And now I wanna get into why they’re called the Gemini Twins. And part of the reason is that they sort of became– And this is like pretty twisted thinking now, like, “Okay, first of all, fuck you for calling them Gemini Twins,” but whatever. Um, they became really, really codependent with each other. [chuckles] Like–

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: –really entwined, and like– I mean, you could say, speaking of Fallout Boy, maybe this is a folie à deux situation.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Not really because they weren’t, you know, in psychosis–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –so I don’t wanna act like that was what was happening. But essentially, they became known as the Gemini Twins because they were like fanatically loyal to each other, and they were basically like twin– I mean, they were like twins, twin flames. I don’t, I don’t know what you wanna call it–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –but they were like Bonnie and Clyde.

Em: Like almost like they had a– like a twin bond, like or–

Christine: Yes. Yes.

Em: –similar–

Christine: Like it was written in the stars. Yeah.

Em: Sure.

Christine: It felt very like meant to be, especially them growing up on the same block, being the same age, dropping out of high school at the same time, having the same niche interests of carjacking and theft. Um–

Em: I mean, you can’t get much better than that.

Christine: I know. It’s beautiful, really. Yeah. Um, so remember, they’re only 15. And so when a 13-year-old neighbor of theirs, so a friend, uh, was threatened with a knife by a man from East New York– and um, I am assuming race plays into this. It’s not fully clear, but they do mention he was a Puerto Rican man, and I think with the mob ties, there was um, you know, some–

Em: Some back and forth. Some–

Christine: It’s more layers to this than just like, “Oh, he was harassing our friend.” But essentially, they find out that, um, this man had, uh, threatened their neighbor with a knife. So they organize the neighborhood group–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –the neighborhood kids. They borrow a car, and they spent the entire day searching the streets until they locate and confront this man, um, and presumably, you know, beat him up or what have you.

Em: Sure.

Christine: So in 1973, they’re now about 18 years old. Um, Joseph got into a bar fight, and he was nearly killed, uh, by an opposing gang member. This gang member stabbed him, puncturing his lung–

Em: Ugh…

Christine: –and leaving him with chronic respiratory difficulties for the rest of his life.

Em: Oof.

Christine: And Tony, Anthony, when he heard out– heard about this, in a direct act of retaliation, tracked down the assailant and beat him nearly to death with his bare hands. Like this is how like–

Em: Loyal.

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: Wow.

Christine: So because they spent so much time together and frequented also a place called the Gemini Lounge, it just became a very easy transition for people to call them the Gemini Twins. And this is everybody from law enforcement called them the Gemini Twins to like underground mob–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –folks–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –uh, called them the Gemini Twins. Um, I went on AstroClub.com to type in their kind of compatibility, just to see, um–

Em: Fun.

Christine: Yeah. And it says here, “What happens when fiery impulsive Aries meets cool, quirky Aquarius? You get a whirlwind of innovation, a dash of rebellion, and potentially a love story for the ages–” And I went–

Em: Happy Pride.

Christine: –“Maybe?”

Em: [laughs] Yeah.

Christine: “–or at least a very interesting chapter. Instant intellectual connection. A-Aquarius loves Aries’s bright mind. Mutual admiration for each other’s independent spirt– spirit. Aries is drawn to Aquarius’s unique perspective. Aquarius is intrigued by Aries’s boldness. They’re both forward-thinkers who are not afraid to challenge the status quo. This shared rebellious streak can be a major bonding point.”

Em: Literally, that’s an interesting way to put that–

Christine: I mean, are you kidding?

Em: –considering we’re talking about–

Christine: Like crazy town. And I mean, I had that in there because last week was gonna be the astrology week–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –but like it’s still really– I mean to me, I find that very interesting, but. In any case, Anthony and Joseph, uh, were introduced at this we– Remember the– At the wedding, this guy, uh, DeMe– Roy DeMeo, uh, showed up at the wedding, so Anthony and Joseph were introduced to this guy. He’s like a high up, big guy in the mob.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, Harvey “Chris” Rosenberg, a Canarsie gangster, introduced them to Roy DeMeo in 1966– or, sorry, he had met him in 1966 while dealing cannabis at a gas station, as you do. And initially, Chris, who in– who introduced them to DeMeo, um, Chris hired Anthony and Joseph for minor tasks like washing his Corvette and his Porsche and like occasionally stealing a car or two.

Em: Sure.

Christine: Um, yeah, you know, just a– like side jobs.

Em: Starting him, starting him small. Starting out small.

Christine: Yeah. He’s like door-dashing and also like–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –like lifting cars. Yeah. So, um, by 1974, now at age 19, Anthony and Joseph officially joined Roy DeMeo’s crew. And this was like a big deal, right? So–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –this guy who’s like hired them for small jobs is like, “Let me, let me introduce you to the big fella,” and puts them in connect.

Em: Yeah. You’ve earned, you’ve earned your place in introducing yourself to some people.

Christine: Exactly. “And now you prove yourself from here on out.” And so that’s what happened. Yeah, they met– Uh, they joined Roy’s crew. They operated actually out of the Gemini Lounge and, uh– The lounge itself, the bar, it was this blue collar neighborhood bar on Flatlands Avenue in Canarsie, Brooklyn. The crew expanded to include a few more guys, including– [chuckles] Now, this is where I included all their names–

Em: Please.

Christine: –because they all have a quote, you know.

Em: Joey, Joey the Mutt. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Okay. Joseph “Dracula” Guglielmo – that’s Roy’s cousin–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –in case you’re wondering. [chuckles]

Em: Okay. Dracula feels a little too flamboyant for me. I feel like they’ve all gotta be like–

Christine: Dra-Dracula was a shock to me.

Em: Yeah. Yeah, it’s gotta be like “Pete the Killer.”

Christine: Dracula was like, “Hello?”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It felt really out there. Uh, yeah, “Dracula” Guglielmo, Henry Borelli, Frederick DiNome, Vito Arena. Okay, so actually a lot of these are just Italian names. Um–

Em: [laughs] But they still sound imposing, don’t they?

Christine: Yeah. The one– I think one of them was called “Money Maker.” Like there were just some wild– Like very ‘70s/’80s like–

Em: I wish I knew what our– what we would be called if we got a cool nickname from a gang.

Christine: It wouldn’t be cool.

Em: I feel like it’d be something like “the Mouth.” Like, like fucking like–

Christine: “The Mouth.” Oh my god. You’re right.

Em: –as podcasters, like “the Yappers.” I don’t know.

Christine: We’d be like, “We’re the Gemini Twins,” and they’d be like, “Literally stop. You’re not.”

Em: “That’s Christine the Mouth right there.” Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: Christine the Mouth is so true.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I’d be like, [in a transatlantic accent] “Broad of broadcast”–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and they’d be like, “Get the Mouth outta here. Silence the Mouth.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Okay. So the crew expanded to include a few more guys: Dracula, Henry Borelli, Vito, Carlo. Anyway. Within this structure, Anthony gave, uh– gained a reputation for providing the crew with significant revenue through his coordination of auto theft and international chop shop rings. And I like to think he put that on his LinkedIn bio–

Em: Absolutely.

Christine: –because it is so well-written. I mean–

Em: Absolutely.

Christine: God, he’s got a– He’s really got like an elevator pitch for himself, you know?

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So despite Tony’s commercial success as, what they called, the “money-maker,” he was highly disliked by Albert DeMeo, Roy’s son–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –who stated, quote, “There was something slick and phony about him.” Now, this is messy, right? Like you have the big mob boss, and then the mob boss’s son–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –is suspicious and jealous of you, but the mob– but your dad has taken him under his wing. Like this is messy already. You can tell.

Em: It’s– Immediately, there’s gonna be a problem.

Christine: Egos are like on alert, you know.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: They are sensitive. They are fragile. So things escalate rapidly here. Just hold on tight. On April 19, 1979, Roy DeMeo, uh, so like top dog, he publicly executed college student Dominick Ragucci after mistaking him for a Cuban hitman.

Em: Ooh, that’s a, that’s a, that’s an oopsie-daisy right there.

Christine: It’s a really bad one. So to avoid the immediate police crackdown, of course, the crew went into hiding, and Anthony and Joseph fled to California.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Shortly thereafter, on May 11, 1979, Chris Rosenberg was executed by Roy as restitution to a Cuban drug cartel that Chris Rosenberg had defrauded. And Chris Rosenberg, remember, is the one who had introduced them.

Em: Chris is the one who introduced them.

Christine: So Chris was the one who had hired them for like “cleaning my Porsche and clean my car and–“

Em: Right. The small little baby stuff first.

Christine: “–my Corvette or whatever, and like I’ll introduce you to the big man.”

Em: Right.

Christine: Okay. So then the big man had him executed.

Em: I see. Okay. Got it, got it, got it.

Christine: Yeah. So like messy on every level. Yeah. So they executed, um, executed him as restitution to a Cuban drug cartel that Chris Rosenberg had defrauded.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So it was like a “punishment,” quote unquote, for defrauding this, this cartel they were working with. Following Chris Rosenberg’s murder, Joseph then took on as the role of Roy’s primary lieutenant and right-hand man. Um–

Em: Ooh. Big promotion.

Christine: Big promotion. And especially to execute the one who was serving that position and then be like, “Step right up.”

Em: Yeah, horrifying.

Christine: Like, holy shit.

Em: It’s like, “Okay, got it. So I could just die at any minute. Got it.”

Christine: I guess in that case, you’re already kind of in that mindset, you know?

Em: Sure.

Christine: You’re like, “I might as well go all the way to the top,” you know.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, so he took that over, which was obviously the position held by Chris previously. And the crew– At this point, like when in this, uh– what do you call it, in this iteration of the crew, they were suspected of committing somewhere between 75 and 200 murders.

Em: Mm. Wow.

Christine: The c– Yeah. And they had a routine. They had a whole process. Okay? The crew perfected this precise routine to dispose of bodies known as “the Gemini Method.”

Em: Oh, shit. Okay.

Christine: This is a lot of Gemini slander, as far as I’m concerned, but–

Em: [chuckles] But as a Gemini, I’m curious what this means. I’m pretty–

Christine: You’re also like loving just the mention.

Em: I’m like, “Oh my god, we’re talking about me again? Okay.”

Christine: What’s up? There is a Fallout Boy line. Hold on. S– Hear me out. There’s a Fallout Boy line, and it goes, “I don’t care what you think as long as it’s about me.”

Em: Damn. Well–

Christine: I know.

Em: –right now, I me– I agree with that. Right now, in this case, I agree with that.

Christine: I even have a t-shirt, speaking of, that says, “The best–“ And then the next line is “the best of us can find happiness in misery.”

Em: Oh. [sighs]

Christine: That’s the next line.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I know. Listen, it’s really good stuff. So–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –the Gemini Method. [sighs] Okay. So there could be a lot of hilarious memes here with Gemini Method. Ha-ha-ha. Okay?

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Leave us alone. [laughs]

Em: Christine said, “Don’t even fucking try it.”

Christine: “Don’t even get me started.” So– “I can just hear you right now.” Okay. The crew perfected a precise routine to dispose of bodies known as the Gemini Method to prevent the discovery of physical evidence and eliminate the corpus delicti under Roy DeMeo’s famous motto, “no body, no crime.”

Em: Okay. Can I guess the Gemini Method–

Christine: So that wa–

Em: –as a Gemini?

Christine: Absolutely, you may.

Em: Immediately, you remove teeth and fingerprints.

Christine: Oh my god, that’s just horrific. I did not think that you were gonna just go right there, but wow. Okay.

Em: A-Am I wrong?

Christine: Um–

Em: If you’re trying to get rid of evidence, right, you get rid of dental records and fingerprints. So chop off their hands. Chop– Get rid of their teeth.

Christine: Um–

Em: No?

Christine: It’s–

Em: Did I say that too quickly?

Christine: It’s just that–

Em: Is it suspicious?

Christine: Here’s what I’ll say. It’s just so, so much more gruesome and detailed–

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: –that I don’t– I don’t even think–

Em: So it’s just like– It’s– Okay. Okay.

Christine: I think what you’re saying is correct, but it’s also at some level like amateur hour. [laughs]

Em: Sure. I don’t even know if that’s the Gemini way. That’s just like classic m-murdering and trying to hide the body way.

Christine: Right.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Maybe that’s what that is. Maybe– But no, but you’re– I mean, you’re right. Like that was the idea to, to– But wow, you really shocked me when you said like, “Take the teeth out.” And I went, “Wait, whoa, whoa.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And then I realized like, “Oh, we’re getting rid of the identity.”

Em: You know what? Excuse me. I’m part of a true crime podcast and almost 500 episodes in. I think I know to remove the teeth by now, you know.

Christine: I think maybe you do, and I think maybe you’re on to something. Um, and maybe you will really regret hearing the rest of this information–

Em: Okay. Okay, go.

Christine: –um, because it also contains–

Em: You know what? I was gonna say it’s my, my payment for making you listen to being drawn and quartered again.

Christine: You know, I was actually gonna say I was a little bit upset by that drawn and quartered information, and then I realized what I’m about to tell you is so much dark– so–

Em: Okay.

Christine: It’s– It– Well, it’s not even darker. I guess it’s not darker because– Well, I– Who can say?

Em: Let’s find out together.

Christine: It’s not for me to say. It’s not for me to say. But it’s not m– as much about the torture, I guess I would say–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –as it is about the disposal of the bodies.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: But it is, detail-wise–

Em: Take me on, take me on a journey.

Christine: –gruesome. Gruesome.

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Christine: The crew used a specialized “tool kit” containing guns, ropes, knives, ice picks, and saws, following a strict sequence of steps.

Em: Ice picks really got me. Okay, let’s go. Oh, let’s go.

Christine: First, the victim was lured through a side door of the Gemini Lounge into the flat and shot once in the head with a suppressed pistol. A towel was instantly wrapped around the victim’s head to contain blood flow.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Another crew member would immediately plunge a knife into the victim’s heart, stopping the heartbeat to halt blood pressure and prevent massive hemorrhaging from the head wound.

Em: Okay. So far we’re like– it’s, it’s a mercy killing, and then we’re like trying to stay scientifically as clean as possible.

Christine: Mercy killing is an interesting way to put it.

Em: I know. I– As I said it, I went, “Eugh,” but at least it’s like– Let’s put it this way, coming from someone who just described like being drawn and quartered and it’s like nothing but pain, uh, I was like at least like right to the head is at least comparatively between the two situations–

Christine: Oh, yeah. It’s very–

Em: –probably an easier way to go.

Christine: You’re right. It’s very humane. Pasture-raised.

Em: Yeah, I hear, I hear, I hear–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: I know. I know.

Christine: Just kidding.

Em: I know it’s fucked up.

Christine: Okay.

Em: I’m sorry. Okay.

Christine: No, no, no, no. Yeah, it is fucked up. There’s really nothing else to say. Uh, it’s very fucked up.

Em: I don’t like condone what they’re doing, but like, you know, it–

Christine: Well, yeah, I would think not. But yeah, the– it’s fascinating to the– stop the heartbeat to– I mean–

Em: It sounds like a doctor told them to do that–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –which is in–

Christine: Well, they did. They ha–

Em: That’s why I’m saying scientific.

Christine: But do you remember? He worked as a butcher.

Em: Ohh.

Christine: He had like anatomical knowledge and–

Em: You’re right.

Christine: –who knows if that’s his skill he brought to the table or if this is something they would just know as crime bosses. I– [sighs]

Em: It’s, uh, so horrible, but.

Christine: I mean, I know it–

Em: Ugh.

Christine: –and I didn’t want to. So, you know, it happens. Sometimes you just know things.

Em: Let’s– Okay. [sighs]

Christine: The body was then dragged to the bathroom, hung over the bathtub. Okay. See, this is where I’m getting the butcher shop stuff again. You see?

Em: Yeah. They– Yeah. Just to ha– to let the blood drip out or something.

Christine: It’s starting to really feel– Yeah, yeah.

Em: Okay.

Christine: It’s starting to feel like that was– that’s what’s happening. The body was dragged to the bathroom, hung over the bathtub, and allowed to bleed out down the shower drain – eugh – so that the remaining blood would congeal, making dismemberment easier.

Em: I mean, trying to, trying to take all feeling out of this–

Christine: It’s very Dexter.

Em: –that does make sense. It is strategic.

Christine: Well, I mean, I think it’s just how you butcher an animal probably.

Em: Yeah. Well, I, I’ve never even really thought about how you butcher an animal. So it– Okay. Makes sense why they do it with animals too.

Christine: Yeah. I, I’m assum– I mean, I don’t know either really, but–

Em: It is very Dexter.

Christine: –I know a lot of this seems very similar. Um, to prevent forensic trace evidence on their clothing, crew members frequently executed this process in their underwear.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Now, that part feels like Gemini to me.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: That’s where I’m starting to understand the connection. But that and only that.

Em: I– It’s interesting ’cause I would have thought more Dexter where it’s like cov– put everything in like a plastic tarp, including yourself, and– But naked to me–

Christine: Well, you–

Em: I guess that makes sense, but–

Christine: –gotta remember this is also like the ‘60s so–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –I don’t know that we have s– like Saran wrap at this point is probably like the newest thing on the block, you know.

Em: I guess my thought was like if we’re trying to like– if we’re worried about like, um, remnants of it being on us, to do it all naked so there’s nothing but blood on us feels kind of counterintuitive. But I don’t know.

Christine: Mm.

Em: I don’t know why I’m overthinking this.

Christine: I mean–

Em: I don’t– Let’s–

Christine: I’m assuming if there are this many steps that there’s probably a cleaning process afterwards. You know what I mean?

Em: Sure. You’re right.

Christine: If they were able to get away with al– 75 to 200– I don’t know. There must be some–

Em: They clearly knew what they were doing unfortunately.

Christine: Yeah, unfortunately. So ugh, god. Okay. So crew members frequently executed this process in their underwear. Fifth, the congealed corpse– That’s a horrible word.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: The congealed corpse was placed onto a plastic swimming pool liner – so you were right on that front–

Em: Okay, tarp.

Christine: –spread across the living room floor. Using butcher’s tools, the crew systematically cut the body into manageable pieces with Anthony once reportedly sawing a single body into nine separate pieces. Like “reportedly” like they’re bragging. It’s just so gross.

Em: Yeah, yeah. They’re like– Yeah.

Christine: Sixth, the body parts were placed in plastic bags, packed in cardboard boxes, and transported to Brooklyn’s Fountain Avenue landfill. And you remember–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –they have ties to the recycling, um–

Em: Right.

Christine: –landfill or recycling–

Em: Wasn’t that a thing in like, um, The Sopranos or something? Where it’s like you, you work for the landfill or like some–

Christine: Oh, probably.

Em: I feel like there’s something–

Christine: That– I mean, that feels right. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. There’s something about like–

Christine: I think–

Em: –you, you have a connection to a dump site. Yeah.

Christine: That’s kind of exactly what seems to be happening here. The massive volume of daily waste deposited at the dump made finding the remains virtually impossible, leading authorities to abandon a planned federal excavation because it was deemed too costly and unlikely to locate evidence. So they’re sort of saying like–

Em: That's crazy. “It’s not even worth it.”

Christine: –“It’s here, but like good luck finding it,” you know. Yeah. Like there– Yeah, it’s not even worth it.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Cooperating witness Vito Arena later testified in federal court about a 1979 dismemberment of two car ring members inside a dark building.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Vito stated that during the dismemberment, Roy said, “We have to cut them up,” and then, “Roy instructed me and Henry Borelli, believe it or not, to go and buy some pizza for everyone.”

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Ugh, god. It's just like so gruesome.

Em: Like– And also like maybe the, maybe the ordering pizza was like, “Just get out of here so you don’t have to witness anything,” but it’s– it also feels like is it as casual? It’s like, “Oh, we’re just gonna get pizza after this because like we don’t even think about this.”

Christine: Mm, I think it’s more like, “You’re the interns. Go get the pizza.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: “We’re doing all this hard work,” but what do I know?

Em: That's, that’s wild that you could eat after that. It’s like– I would never be able to eat again.

Christine: Agreed. Really agreed.

Em: Oh. Oh my god.

Christine: Andrei Katz, a 22-year-old auto mechanic, became the f– crew’s first documented murder and dismemberment victim. So Andrei had purchased a stolen vehicle from the crew and after being arrested began cooperating with a grand jury. And when they found out that he was like cooperating and would potentially testify, uh, blaming Chris Rosenberg for his legal troubles, um, he was beaten first, and his brother, Victor, later testified that, um, he claimed the two assailants were Joseph and Anthony. But he himself wasn’t in court because on Friday, June 13th of 1975, the crew had their female associate, Babette–

Em: Okay.

Christine: I know. Babette Judith Questel. They had her successfully lure Andrei to her apartment complex for what he thought was a date.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Upon arrival, he was forcefully abducted by Chris Rosenberg, Henry Borelli, Joseph, and Anthony, and transported to the meat department of a Pantry Pride supermarket in Rockaway Beach, Queens, where Roy DeMeo was waiting.

Em: Gotcha.

Christine: Andrei was stabbed multiple times in the heart and back with a butcher knife by Chris Rosenberg in revenge for a prior shooting that had disfigured Chris Rosenberg’s face.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Once dead, his body was stripped of his clothes and dismembered by Roy and Joseph, leveraging their training as butcher apprentices. The head was severed and placed through a commercial machine normally used for compacting cardboard boxes.

Em: Oh, shit.

Christine: So like when y–

Em: That’s truly like out of The Sopranos or some shit. Like so–

Christine: Yeah, because like you think about having a, a dump at your disposal, and, sure, you’d have the tools for that too.

Em: A whole trash compactor.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: So yeesh. Okay. The wrapped remains were deposited in the supermarket dumpster where a pedestrian walking a dog spotted one of Andrei Katz’s legs lying on a curb near the store. And wouldn’t you know it, the body had to be identified using dental records.

Em: Ooh.

Christine: So you were on to something–

Em: That’s– I mean.

Christine: –that they didn’t seem to figure out.

Em: I am shocked that that’s the Gemini Method ’cause I thought surely you wouldn’t just take nine chunks of a person and then just put them in a fucking box. Like I would think you would take those smaller chunks of a person and then like burn them–

Christine: So that was–

Em: –or something.

Christine: That was their fir– That was their first identified, uh, victim.

Em: Oh. Oh, oh, I see.

Christine: So I think that was like before they’ve developed–

Em: Right.

Christine: –a method to this craziness. Like I think that was just the first– the early example of like their first victim, and then it kind of just continued on from there.

Em: Mm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Christine: Yeah. He was the first documented, um, of dismembered and– murdered and dismembered, and then they started like creating a process around that.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So [sighs], um, here we go. Joseph and Henry Borelli were arrested, but they secured an acquittal in January 1976, so the murder remained a core target for federal investigators. Frank Amato was a Gambino associate married to Constance Castellano, the daughter of Gambino family boss, Paul Castellano–

Em: Paulie Castellano.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –in a traditional old-world style wedding. Now, talk about time machine. I wanna take a time machine to that wedding.

Em: Truly.

Christine: Following the marriage, Paul Castellano set Frank Amato up in business as an Italian ice dis-distributor, which quickly failed. Frank was put to work as a butcher at Dial Meat Purveyors and the meat market franchises managed by Paul Castellano’s sons, Joseph and Phillip. And now that they had all of this access, they were like expanding. And at these supplier sites, Frank Amato and other butchers would also do some like really nasty tactics, like with the food. So they would bleach tainted, outdated, and uninspected meats to like try and keep them looking fresh.

Em: Nice. Disgusting.

Christine: Yeah, it’s na– It’s really nasty. Um, so they would bleach tainted, outdated, um, and uninspected meats using formaldehyde and a preservative powder known as “dynamite” to put red color back into the meat.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And they used counterfeit USDA stamps and labeled meat as “beef” or “pork” without actually verifying what it was.

Em: Yum. Yum.

Christine: Oh my god. Oh my god. So I tell you all this about Frank Amato because, uh, fearing that Frank Amato would cooperate with federal agents and angered by reports that Frank Amato had made unwanted sexual advances toward female employees, Paul Castellano said, “He’s gotta die.” Roy DeMeo shot Frank Amato to death with a machine gun.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: And R– I know. And Roy, Henry Borelli, Anthony, Joseph, and Frederick, and Richard DiNome dismembered the body. The remains were then loaded into Richard DiNome’s cabin cruiser and dumped several miles out to sea. In 1986, Marat Balagula, the leader of the Russian mafia in Brighton Beach, operated a multi-billion-dollar gasoline bootlegging scam. And after being extorted by the Colombo family, Marat agreed to pay street tax– Sorry, this is a lot of like mob talk.

Em: A lot of–

Christine: He agree–

Em: I was like, “Oh my god, I feel like I’m just sitting in.” [laughs]

Christine: I know. I’m like– The gargoyles would have been useless by now.

Em: [laughs] Yeah.

Christine: Like we’ve lost the– Yeah. So he agreed to pay street tax to the Lucchese [pronounced “loo-chay-zee”] crime– Is that how you say that?

Em: Lucchese [pronounced “luh-kay-zee”].

Christine: Lucchese [pronounced “luh-kay-zee”] –to the Lucchese crime family underboss, Anthony “Gaspipe” [chuckles] Casso–

Em: “Gaspipe”? See, that’s much better than–

Christine: Good. That’s a good one.

Em: –“Money Maker” or “Dracula.”

Christine: Totally. “Dracula.” –establishing a partnership that became the Five Families’ largest moneymaker after narcotics.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: So Marat – I hope I’m saying that right.

Em: Hm?

Christine: Balagula [pronounced “buh-lah-guh-lah”]? Balagula [pronounced “bah-lah-goo-lah”]? His deal was viewed as a sign of weakness by his rival, Vladimir Reznikov, who opened fire on his office with an AK-47, wounding several secretaries and killing an associate. And then on June 12, 1986, Vladimir Rez-Reznikov entered the Odessa nightclub, pressed a 9mm Beretta to Marat Balagula’s head, and demanded $600,000, saying, “Fuck with me and you’re dead–”

Em: Ooh.

Christine: “–you and your whole fucking family. I swear. You understand?”

Em: Oh my.

Christine: Marat suffered a heart attack as a result.

Em: Damn. Just from the stress.

Christine: Yes. And he contacted Casso. Uh, and Casso, viewing Vladimir Reznikov’s actions as a threat to the entire Cosa Nostra–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –told Marat, “Send word to Vladimir–“ first of all, great line– “Send word to Vladimir that you have his money, that he should come to the club tomorrow. We’ll take care of the rest.”

Em: Classic.

Christine: So now they’re laying in wait for this guy.

Em: Classic mafioso.

Christine: Totally. Marat warned, “You sure? This is an animal.” They were sure.

Em: Okay.

Christine: The following day, Vladimir Reznikov arrived at the Rasputin nightclub to collect his money. Upon discovering Marat was absent, Vladimir launched into a barrage of profanity and walked back into the parking lot. This is where Joseph ambushed Vladimir, shooting him six times in the arm, leg, and hip. And as Vladimir attempted to draw his own weapon, Joseph, quote, “finished him off with a seventh bullet to the head.”

Em: Oof.

Christine: Joseph then entered a getaway car driven by Anthony and left Brighton Beach. So like the Gemini Twins in the getaway car. There they go.

Em: Okay. Zoom.

Christine: Casso later noted, “After that, Marat didn’t have any problems with other Russians.” [chuckles] Okay.

Em: [chuckles] Ha– Um, you know what? Thank god.

Christine: Thank god. Seriously. In late 1982, Paul Castellano ordered Frank – oh god – DeCicco [pronounced “duh-see-co”]?

Em: DeCicco [pronounced “duh-see-co”].

Christine: I don’t know. In late 1982, Paul Castellano ordered Frank DeCicco to arrange the murder of Roy DeMeo because Roy was now a, a threat to this whole enterprise.

Em: Mm.

Christine: He’s under heavy law enforcement investigation. And Paul Castellano is like, “If he turns, everyone underneath is screwed.” Because of his fearsome reputation, like Roy DeMeo is like this huge crime boss, Frank found it difficult to find anyone [chuckles] who would like take out a hit on this guy.

Em: [chuckles] I don’t blame them.

Christine: Becau– Or, he’s trying to take out a hit, but he can’t find anyone who wants to do the hit.

Em: No one’s volunteering, yeah.

Christine: No one’s volunteering. Uh, no, no, no. So Frank recrui– recruited Anthony and Joseph, members of Roy’s crew–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –to kill their own boss.

Em: Double agent.

Christine: I mean, yeah.

Em: That’s– I mean, is that not the most Gemini thing you can be?

Christine: It is. It’s starting to really track at this point.

Em: Don’t they say Geminis are two-faced? It’s like–

Christine: Yeah, they do.

Em: –well–

Christine: Well.

Em: –now you’re against your own kind. Crazy.

Christine: Oops. According to Sammy “The Bull” Gravano, Paul Castellano wanted the whole DeMeo crew killed because they had all become serial killers.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Feels like fighting fire with fire, but–

Em: It does feel like you kind–

Christine: –who am I to say?

Em: It’s like Frankenstein– Dr. Frankenstein against his own monster.

Christine: Right. It’s like, “Well, who actually is creating this problem?”

Em: It’s like, “Didn’t you kind of want him to– them to kill a lot of people?” Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Isn’t that kinda– Okay.

Em: “Now you wanna kill the killers? Okay. Sure.”

Christine: Yeah. Sure. Whatever. So Frank DeCicco approached Anthony and Joseph, told them about the contract on them, but promised they would get a pass, meaning they would be spared if they killed Roy. So that’s basically how they talked them into it.

Em: Sure.

Christine: They’re like, “Well, we’ll put out a hit on you two. Nobody has a problem with that–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: “–but we’ll spare you if you kill your boss.”

Em: Right.

Christine: So Casso also claimed he ordered Anthony and Joseph to kill Roy, assuring them there were– would be no retribution and then they would just like join the big family and everybody would just be happy again. “It’s all good. Don’t even worry about it.”

Em: A Disney ending. Disney ending.

Christine: A Disney family ending. On January 10, 1983, Roy visited Patrick’s bodyshop, Patrick Testa Motors, Inc. in Canarsie, Brooklyn, to collect money. Anthony and Joseph were both there. And as Roy DeMeo sat down and waited for a cup of coffee, like he had countless times, they shot him dead.

Em: Mm.

Christine: On January 20, 1983, Roy was found in the trunk of his Cadillac– His body was found, I should say, in the trunk of his Cadillac Coupe DeVille at the Varuna Boat Club parking lot. He had been shot multiple times in the head with a defensive bullet wound in his hand and a chandelier placed on top of his frozen body.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Symbolic.

Christine: Bizarre. I think they probably were like, “Let’s just put something–“

Em: “–something so obvious that it’s clear that we were here.” Like– [chuckles]

Christine: Some– No, I think they were hiding him in the trunk. They put him in the trunk–

Em: Ohh.

Christine: –and they put a chandelier on it.

Em: [laughs] I was like so– I don’t– I couldn’t, I couldn’t–

Christine: It’s like Phantom of the Opera. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. I was like, “This makes– Okay, whatever.” That makes a lot more sense.

Christine: Sorry. No, he was in his own– It doesn’t really make more sense though. That’s the thing.

Em: No, it makes more sense what I was thinking. Like, it’s like a calling card of like– It’s–

Christine: Oh. Oh, no. Yeah. I think it was more just like, “Oh, let’s put him in the trunk and then put something else in it to like–“

Em: Sure.

Christine: “–hide him sort of.” Or maybe there was already a chandelier in the trunk, and they just put him in it.

Em: Put it on top, yeah.

Christine: You know what I mean? Um, ’cause it’s his car, so I, I don’t really know the answer to that. Um, so the Gambino family did keep their word, and they spared Anthony and Joseph, uh, but they did not want them associated with their family. So they were passed off to Casso and officially “made” in the Lucche– Lucchese family, crime family. In October 1984, the federal government issued a multi-count indictment targeting the international stolen car export ring. And together, the defendants were tried. It was Paul Castellano, Anthony Gaggi, Henry Borelli, Peter La Froscia, Ronald Turekian, Edward Rendini, Ronald Ustica, Joseph, Anthony, whole gang was there. Paul Castellano was assassinated on the streets of New York during the trial.

Em: Yes.

Christine: This shit is getting bonkers.

Em: I won’t say who, but I know someone who witnessed his death.

Christine: What?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: The fuck?

Em: They– Not like they were in on it, but like they h– they hid behind a car and witnessed it happen.

Christine: What the fuck, Em?

Em: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Christine: You– [chuckles] Literally, I said that and you were like, “Oh, yeah.” Like– [laughs]

Em: Well, ’cause earlier when you said Paul Castellano, I went, “I don’t know if I’m gonna tell that story.” [laughs]

Christine: Oh… Holy shit. I have to text you later. Okay. Uh, wowza. So moving right along. Uh, he was assassinated on the streets of New York with no witnesses during the trial.

Em: Except one. Well, during the trial–

Christine: No, I was saying no witnesses– I’m saying no– No, no, I’m saying no witnesses, not even the person you’re talking about.

Em: That’s exactly right.

Christine: Keep them out of the, out of the headline.

Em: That’s exactly right.

Christine: The jury acquitted both Anthony and Joseph of conspiracy to transport stolen vehicles and substantive transport charges. They also faced charges under, uh, certain laws for conspiring to violate the civil rights of federal witnesses by basically, um, killing them. [laughs]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: It feels a little wild to say they violated their rights, um–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –but anyway, okay.

Em: Does feel odd.

Christine: Uh, so all this to say, the jury was unable to reach a verdict on the civil rights conspiracy count for Anthony and Joseph. There was a mistrial because of it, and in May of 1988, uh, the court rejected their double jeopardy claims and ruled they could be retried on the civil rights conspiracy count. They then merged that into a 78-count racketeering indictment charge, um–

Em: Jeez. [chuckles]

Christine: –RICO, 24 individuals associated with the DeMeo crew. So this is one of those like where you see those documentaries where it’s like they’re just putting–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –they’re like explaining to you like all the pieces. That's kind of what is happening.

Em: It almost feels like a combo deal at a restaurant. It’s like I’ve– Like–

Christine: Yes.

Em: Just how do we fit everybody into these charges? [chuckles]

Christine: And it like– It somehow all connects with that red string. So the trial began on February 22, 1988 before Judge Vincent L. Broderick. It lasted 16 months and produced over 30,000 pages of transcripts involving over 250 witnesses. So some of the co-defendants included, um, were pretty big names. The one I’m going to point out here is Douglas Rega. And Douglas Rega was actually known, um, for supplying pornographic films to the crew. That was like his role–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –in the crew. So even he was part of this like big RICO–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –like, “we’re putting them all under one umbrella.”, uh, he had actually paid them to murder his uncle over a real estate dispute. So you know. Uh–

Em: Okay. I mean–

Christine: Just one example.

Em: –[sighs] what a dispute it must have been.

Christine: What a dispute. During the trial in October 1988, Anthony and Joseph were arrested on drug possession charges after being caught using cocaine in the courthouse bathroom.

Em: Like, easy slip-up.

Christine: During the trial.

Em: Are you okay?

Christine: Like, come on. No.

Em: Come on.

Christine: [sighs] In June 1989, the jury convicted Anthony and Joseph of racketeering and ten counts of murder.

Em: Okay.

Christine: In September 1989, Judge Broderick sentenced both men to life imprisonment for the murders, plus a consecutive 20 years for racketeering, and $35,000 in fines. Uh, the at– assistant U.S. attorney at the time stated at sentencing, “The Roy DeMeo crew is the most violent crew ever prosecuted in federal court, as far as my knowledge,”, uh, and asserted that Roy “engaged in wholesale slaughter.”

Em: Wow.

Christine: Yes.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Um, yep. And befo– because, uh, their crimes occurred prior to the abolition of federal parole in ’87, both remained eligible for parole. And, uh, yeah, just really crazy. Anthony and Joseph have also been linked to like dozens of other murders of like other mobsters, you know, that they had been involved in.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: So really, we don’t know like the full extent of it. Um, Anthony was paroled in 2023 and was released in June of 2024–

Em: Wow. Okay.

Christine: –uh, after serving 35 years. And Joseph was paroled in 2024. He resided in Henderson, Nevada, where he died this year, January of 2026, at the age of 71.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Uh, but yeah, Anthony’s still out there, so you know.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Pretty crazy stuff.

Em: I– That’s a, a tall order to cover any Italian mob case. That’s–

Christine: I really tried to dwindle it down, but–

Em: It’s all so–

Christine: –and I had such confidence that I would remember how to frame it in a way that was like, “Oh, you’ll remember, you know, what this means.” And like I ju-just, um–

Em: No, it’s, it’s a– it’s all so– I mean, it’s years of friendship, ally, friend– or friendship, enemy, friendship, enemy, friend–

Christine: Totally.

Em: Like and everybody’s got tied into each other. That’s an–

Christine: Families and– Oh my god.

Em: You’re really only telling like one chapter of a very large story. It’s a lot.

Christine: Oh, yes.

Em: So good job.

Christine: I think that this could be a very big HBO like mu– Well, it probably is ’cause it’s called Sopranos–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –but you know what I mean. [chuckles] Like this could be like an actual–

Em: But s–

Christine: It probably is a documentary, but.

Em: I’m sure there’s many documentaries about just tiny little– just like the, the big Five–

Christine: Like slivers of the families.

Em: –the Five Families. Yeah.

Christine: Right. Exactly.

Em: Oh my god. Wow. No, uh, that was, um, that was well done. That’s– It’s tough to cover any of them ’cause every single one of them has– Like Paulie Castellano has–

Christine: Yeah, exactly.

Em: That’s– Like he just was a guest appearance in that story.

Christine: There were– I was like, “I’ll, I’ll pick two or three of them, like just like notable like events or victims,” and it was like, “Oh my god. Like it’s just endless.” like I don’t– I just kind of had to pick and choose like examples which is kind of dark.

Em: Wow. Well, and also I–

Christine: Anyway.

Em: I got to share more about my lore about someone knowing a– [chuckles]

Christine: I know, but like you left us with such like a little tease.

Em: Well–

Christine: I’m like so intrigued.

Em: –to be fair, it was– he– the, the person that knew about it was– he was a family member, but he, he died already, so it’s not like–

Christine: Oh, he’s dead. Okay.

Em: It’s not like they’re gonna come looking for us. Uh–

Christine: Okay. Okay.

Em: And also why would they? Apparently, he kept his mouth shut the whole time, so [chuckles] no one–

Christine: Yeah, apparently so.

Em: –no one ratted anyone out.

Christine: Took it to the grave, literally.

Em: But no, and he– It was, [whispering] was my grandpa. Um, but he, um, was very, um, drunk one night and, and let it out, and he was like–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –“I’ve never told anybody this.” And I went, “Oh!” But he was just walking home and–

Christine: That–

Em: –witnessed it, and he hid behind a car, and he was like, “I just watched Paulie Castellano die. Holy shit,” and then was like, “I’m not telling a–“

Christine: “Well, I gotta zip it.”

Em: “I’ll never tell a soul.” He said, “I’m never telling a soul. I don’t want it to come back to me.”

Christine: What was his, what was his zodiac sign? ’Cause it certainly wasn’t Gemini.

Em: The day before, uh, Halloween, so, uh, Scorpio.

Christine: Scorpio. They are good at those fucking secrets, those Scorpios.

Em: I– They’re mysterious.

Christine: They live under a fucking rock.

Em: Mysterious.

Christine: They are.

Em: Anyway, it was, uh–

Christine: Wow. What a tale.

Em: I remember hearing about that and, and not– Uh, he also told me when like I was much younger. I wouldn’t have cared at all about any Italian mob family history. So maybe that’s why he said something to me because he knew it –

Christine: Mm.

Em: –get around, but whatever. It’s gotten around now, but it happened after he died, so.

Christine: Now you’re on a microphone. Anyway. [laughs]

Em: Now I’m on a microphone, but he’s dead, so whatever. Um, okay. Well, that was very good. That was– had to be a lot of research. Good job.

Christine: Thank you. It was a lot of research, but then I pared it down, and then it was almost like, “I wish I kept a little more of that,” but no, it’s fine. I– It was too much of an order to do more in-depth than that. But yeah, next time I will, uh, come with something maybe a little bit less of a cast of characters, you know. We’ll see.

Em: I don’t know. As long– If they’ve got fun nicknames like that, they’re always welcome.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Um, alright. Well, that was Christine “The Mouth” Schiefer. Uh– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Yeah. Wait, what are you?

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: Em “The Brains.”

Em: Wow, that’s a nice thing to say, but no. Um–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It's like an ironic nickname, isn’t it? Um–

Christine: No.

Em: [laughs] Uh, no. I, uh– That was very good, Christine. Thank you for– And you finished out our birthday.

Christine: Oh my gosh.

Em: Uh, ’cause that was technically our birthday episode originally, so.

Christine: Happy birthday.

Em: Well, everyone, hope you are having a good Pride month, uh–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –happy week. This– I think when this one comes out, it’s officially halfway through the year. So, um–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: Yeah. So, uh, with that, toodle-oo, and–

Christine: Let's get out of here. That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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