E487 A Non-Squatting Sasquatch and Skreeonk Facts (featuring Guest Host Steven Ray Morris)

TOPICS: THE BUENA PARK MONSTER AKA BUENA FOOT, THE BONE WARS

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It’s Episode 487 and today Em is joined by guest host Steven Ray Morris while Christine is away! To kick us off Em tells us the lore of the Buena Park Monster (aka Buena Foot), a sewer dwelling sasquatch near Knotts Berry Farm. Then Steven brings us a creature related crime story with the tale of the Bone Wars aka the feud between Edward Drinker Cope and Othniel Charles Marsh, truly a tale for the ages. And is New Jersey just a trashy Lord of the Rings? …and that’s why we drink!

Catch Steven over on his podcast See Jurassic Right, or on Instagram @StevenRayMorris or @SeeJurassicRight !

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Transcript

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[intro music]

Em: Hello, everybody. Uh, you might be wondering what’s going on. I am in Steven Ray Morris’s house. Uh, unfortunately, Christine could not be here this week, and so, uh, Steven decided that he would be stepping in. By decided, I mean I kind of forced him.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: I said, “Please come right now.” And, uh, I was going to record in our usual way over the internet, even though we’re neighbors, and then that internet wasn’t working. So I went to a hotel, so I could use their internet. That internet wasn’t working. Here is evidence of that somewhere. Hopefully, we can put a little pol-

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –a little screen tab of, um, us once recording this, but then since that internet was so bad, we’re trying for a third time. He said, “Just come over.” Um, so now we’re here.

Steven: Yes.

Em: And I’m all snuggled up on hi– on– in his living room. Thank you so much for hosting us–

Steven: Yes. [chuckles]

Em: –as I host you. Welcome, Steven Ray Morris.

Steven: Hello.

Em: Thank you for doing this with me. I’m very excited.

Steven: We’re getting cozy. You’ve got a blanket.

Em: Yes. I– Very cozy.

Steven: My three cats are somewhere.

Em: They’re somewhere. Steven even said, “Oh, do you want me to put the cats away?” And I went, “Please keep them out because I know we got a lot of, um, cat lovers who listen.” So I did make you do this the last time, but would you please tell people all about your kitties ’cause they’re brand new to the family?

Steven: No, I’m very lucky. I lost my cat, Penny Lane, of 18 years in November. And it’s just one of those– Of course, they’re gonna start running around.

Em: That’s fine.

Steven: And–

Em: If you hear any rumbles–

Steven: –they come upon the scene– No, I– You know, you never know when you’re ready for another pet. But my friend, Christine, had rescued these two black cats, and I was like, “I love black cats. You know, they’re harder to adopt, all that stuff.” So, I was like, “I’ll meet them.”

Em: Right.

Steven: And then their mom was there as well, and I just said, “You know what? Let’s take them all.” So– [chuckles]

Em: From zero to one to three cats, as you’ve said.

Steven: Yes, yes. Yeah. No, and it’s the thing– Yeah. So I have three cats. Bidi Bidi Bom Bom is the mom–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: –named after the Selena song.

Em: Love it.

Steven: And then I have Ripley, who’s the boy. He’s the large black cat. He’s the special boy. And then I have Wendy, who’s the goblin princess, who I think is the one with the swishy tail over there right now playing.

Em: She looks like she’s in hunt mode, which I love.

Steven: Yes.

Em: And my favorite fact about all of his cats is that out of all three of them combined, they have one tooth.

Steven: Yes.

Em: Um, Wendy has one tooth, which is why her tongue sticks out all the time. It’s very precious.

Steven: Eternal blep, yeah.

Em: Eternal blep. Yeah, I love that.

Steven: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Em: Um, and I’m just so grateful for you, Steven.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: It was– It’s been such an embarrassing day between like, “Hey, the internet’s not working. Hey, the internet’s not working again.” So, I really– I thank you so much for housing me.

Steven: No, of course. Yeah. We di– We did our See Jurassic Right episode together here in this living room.

Em: We did.

Steven: It was one of the last recordings I did before I adopted these cats. And Wendy and Bidi Bidi Bom Bom are in full Lorelai and Rory mode here.

Em: [chuckles]

Steven: Gilmore– I call them the Gilmore Girls when they’re fighting. [laughs]

Em: It’s the mom and daughter fighting. Uh, no, they– I– Yes, I was here last time, probably one of your last silent episodes, I guess, um, before they were running around. But–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: –this is a wonderful time to shout out your podcast, See Jurassic Right.

Steven: Yes.

Em: Uh, tell, tell the world what you’d like them to know about that.

Steven: [chuckles, watching the cats offscreen] They he–

Em: [laughs, watching the cats too]

Steven: They love to show off. It’s great. No, See Jurassic Right, it started off as Jurassic Park podcast, but then I was thinking– ’Cause we– After our ASL class the other day, I like the idea of See Jurassic Right is essentially like any guest that come comes on, it’s like, “What is their Jurassic Park?”

Em: Yeah, I love that.

Steven: And so I’ve interviewed scientists. I’ve interviewed therapists, musicians, other podcasters, people in the Jurassic Park movies–

Em: And me. [laughs] You started with scientists–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –and we got to us talking– Oh, there’s one of them.

[A black cat jumps up onto the table in front of Em and Steven.]

Em: Uh, we talked about Back to the Future–

Steven: And theme parks and stuff, yeah.

Em: I did really like– We, we kind of came together on the, the– not together, but I was with you when you came up with the concept of like, “What’s your Jurassic Park?”

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: I loved that. It was, it was very nice ’cause I remember when Steven asked me to be on his episode – please go listen to it – I was like, “Oh man, it’s a dinosaur podcast.”

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: “What am I gonna talk about?” And it turned into kind of just like a fandom geekfest.

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: It was wonderful.

Steven: No, that’s totally– Yeah, the podcast is basically kind of split between those two lines of like science stuff and dinosaur stuff and then also like movies, pop culture, geeky stuff.

Em: Yes.

Steven: And then there’s like a little lane there where there’s like Steven lore-related things that I can fit in there, but–

Em: Love it.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Love it.

Steven: So.

Em: So Steven is returning the favor, and he’s, he’s coming on to our show. I–

Steven: Very excited.

Em: A lot– I’m– You’ve said the same on your end, but a lot of people who follow my social media are very excited that–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –we have become, um, friends. We’re– We also did ASL together. So–

Steven: Yes.

Em: –today’s Yappy Hour, we’re gonna teach you a little ASL, and, um– But no, people are very stoked that, you know, we’ve got a little thing going on.

Steven: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: So I’m, I’m glad that you’re here.

Em’s Story – The Buena Park Monster aka Buena Foot

Em: I– Poor Steven already knows the topic because we got that far in the last recording, but–

Steven: [pretends to cover his ears] No spoilers. No spoilers.

Em: [chuckles] I, I did ask Steven if he wanted a ghost, an alien, or a cryptid. He said cryptid.

Steven: I did.

Em: And I did pick a local cryptid for him because he was– born and raised? Or just raised in Anaheim?

Steven: I was born and raised in Anaheim, so–

Em: Okay.

Steven: –you know, Orange County– I was born and raised at Disneyland. [in a joking, higher voice] Mickey’s my dad. [chuckles] Um–

Em: [laughs] Yeah, we, uh, we talked in the last– You’ll never know now, but we did talk about how Steven– Your first job was at Disney?

Steven: My first ever job when I was 17 was at Disneyland.

Em: And yeah, very few people can relate to that.

Steven: Pizza Port. I mean, I basically worked at Costco, the Costco pizza– Like, that’s what Disney– that’s what Pizza Port essentially is.

Em: Yes.

Steven: It's very good, but it is just like pizza, you know? It’s not as like themed as other parts of Disneyland, but I did like being in Tomorrowland, and I loved being below Space Mountain. That was really fun.

Em: I can’t imagine having like a work break.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: Like a– Like some people were just like having a cigarette in Tomorrowland instead of a back alley.

Steven: Yes, Pluto was having a cigarette–

Em: [laughs]

Steven: –with her head off.

Em: Her?

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Oh, that’s shock– I don’t know why that’s shocking to me to– That’s just as shocking as the cigarette. [laughs]

Steven: [laughs]

Em: Um, oh, wow. Okay. Well, Pluto’s having a good time.

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: I mean, no, it’s not the same Pluto anymore, but one can dream.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: So, um, the cryptid I picked for you was a local to Anaheim, and it was the Buena Park Monster – although one of the newspapers I read did say “Buenafoot” instead of Bigfoot.

Steven: [laughs]

Em: So, um, we got about one bullet in. So that actually–

Steven: Heck yeah.

Em: Steven is really gonna be, um, learning about this in real time.

Steven: Yes, yes.

Em: And you, and you were not familiar with this monster?

Steven: No. Yeah, I mean, Buena Park is near Knott’s Berry Farm where I had my winter formal in high school, which doesn’t–

Em: Yes.

Steven: I feel like you having a winter formal at a theme park doesn’t make sense because you’re riding roller coasters in a s– you know, in a tux, in a dress like–

Em: Oh, I didn’t think about that.

Steven: Yeah, it was kind of a weird thing. Like I remember because, you know, I– ill-fitting suit at 17 or– Yeah, I think 16 or 17. Like my Nokia flip phone–

Em: [chuckles]

Steven: –like flew out of my pocket on–

Em: Oh.

Steven: –the roller coaster. Like it was a bit of a disaster.

Em: I did– It didn’t occur to me that people were actually in glam.

Steven: No, no, it was, it was winter formal. Like it– I feel like it should have either been like Sadie Hawkins or like homecoming that like–

Em: That’s kind of familiar with, um– I was very lucky to go to, uh, a premiere at Disney.

Steven: Oh, cool.

Em: It was for the Haunted Mansion.

Steven: Oh, nice. Oh my god.

Em: And so, one of the cool things about that was, uh, you had to actually ride The Haunted Mansion ride, and when you got to the other side, that was where the movie began. You had to go– You had to ride the ride to get to the movie.

Steven: Whoa, that’s cool.

Em: I thought that was– I thought it was so smart because then you like definitely knew all the references when you watched the movie ’cause you just saw the ride.

Steven: You were absorbing it.

Em: You were absorbing it. And– But I– We also had to dress up for that. It was a movie premiere, and I was like, “Are people gonna go ride rides afterwards in this? Is– Like in heels?” I–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: I thought that was so odd. But anyway, I did not. I did like one ride, and I was like, “Let’s get out of here.”

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: Um, okay. So, Buena Park Monster. I, I– The only fun fact I told you is that at Knott’s Berry Farm, nearby where this monster was seen, uh, they, a few years later, had a, a ride come out called Bigfoot Rapids. And a lot of people thought that that was inspired by the sightings a few years before, but unfortunately, I’m here to tell you that’s not true.

Steven: [sighs]

Em: They just picked Bigfoot, I guess.

Steven: [chuckles] It’s a great ride.

Em: It’s, it’s–

Steven: You get wet, you know.

Em: It’s one of those like– Is it a log flume? Or is it like when you sit in the circle and you go under the–

Steven: It’s– You sit in the circle, yeah.

Em: And you go under the waterfalls?

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Uh, haven’t ridden it. Is it still there?

Steven: I don’t know.

Em: Oh.

Steven: That’s a good question. I feel like I’m– My allegiances have mostly been split between Disneyland and Universal Studios.

Em: I understand.

Steven: And I just really– I don’t think I’ve been back to Knott’s Berry Farm since high school, so.

Em: Get out. Not even for Halloween?

Steven: Mm…

Em: They have a big Halloween thing out here at Knott’s.

Steven: Maybe, maybe one year did the Halloween thing, but.

Em: Fun.

Steven: I just don’t– I guess I’m not, uh, into [questioningly] boysenberry? That’s–

Em: I went to the Boysenberry Festival–

Steven: Okay.

Em: –this year on principle. It’s 10–

Steven: So, so it’s worth it.

Em: 10 out of 10.

Steven: So I should go. [chuckles]

Em: If you’re hungry, it’s a 10 out of 10.

Steven: Okay, okay.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Um, okay. So we start in 1982.

Steven: Okay.

Em: This is where the internet cut out last time.

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Em: So, in 1982, uh, Buena Park locals report some weird activity going on in their town’s drain systems. They’re just hearing odd sounds. They’re hearing growling. Uh, they are hearing weird screams, and they’re seeing odd animal tracks, and they’re like, “Well, that doesn’t make any sense. What’s going on in there?” Which I could understand animals being like in a tunnel for a storm or something, but it is California. It doesn’t rain all that much.

Steven: No, but it is interesting because the part of Anaheim I grew up in was like a big suburban, you know, big suburban–

Em: Sprawl.

Steven: –sprawl. And so half of the city was built– uh, Anaheim Hills specifically was built in the ‘70s, and the other half was built when I was growing up. So the thing that everyone really noticed was that all the animals, you know, in those areas where they were doing construction were all being pushed out, so we saw–

Em: Ohh.

Steven: –a lot of wildlife growing up. Like I saw a ton of coyotes as a kid. Bobcats.

Em: Interesting.

Steven: So I wonder– I mean, this is, this is in between those times, but again, it’s like construction always pushes out wildlife.

Em: Had no idea.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Okay. Well, maybe that’s, maybe that’s telling of something here. Um, they were seeing a bunch of animal tracks, but they were also seeing a dark shadowy figure hanging around in the sewers.

Steven: [gasps]

Em: And, uh, pretty much people were reporting that they were seeing, uh, almost a human figure–

Steven: [sucks in a breath]

Em: –but it– there was something off about it. It was just a little too hairy [chuckles] and just a little too big. Um, people were reporting that when they would get a better look at it, eventually they realized that this creature was about nine feet tall with–

Steven: In the sewer?

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] That’s a lot of crawling. There’s no–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: There’s not even a chance at squatting or anything in there.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Um, nine feet tall with glowing red eyes. And so people claimed that they would see it near a riverbank at the local school, but there were no official records, just rumors of it existing. And then on May 10, 1982, two teenagers and their three friends were all hanging– So five teenagers in total, they were all hanging out at the apartment complex. And I guess they’re hanging out outside an– because they were within shot of the sewer system. And that’s when they, for the first time, really got a good look at this thing because the creature was climbing out of the tunnel–

Steven: [gasps]

Em: –instead of climbing in. So, while they were outside, they hear a deep snarl and then get this whiff of something disgusting. They pretty– It was like mean how they were describing how bad this smelled. [chuckles]

Steven: Yeah, you would smell too if you were in a s-sewer.

Em: Literally.

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Like I can’t imagine a worse place to like try to smell good.

Steven: Oof.

Em: Um, but so they heard this horrible growl, got a whiff of something putrid. I’m saying putrid. They were more intense about it. And when they turned around, that’s when they saw this big-ass creature crawl out. Uh, they thought that it could have been a bear. One of them actually thought it was Bigfoot. They were like, “Oh my god.”

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: “I see him. Here he is.”

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Um, and one of the brothers– His name was Raymond– is. He’s still alive, I think. Um, this is a quote from Raymond about what happened: “It got bigger as the roar got louder.”

Steven: Whoa.

Em: Which feels kind of like old-school Hulk where the angrier he’d get, the bigger he would get. Um, so I don’t know if they watched him like metamorphis– meta–

Steven: Metamo–

Em: –grow– [laughs]

Steven: Yeah, grow. [chuckles]

Em: –into a bigger being, but um, he apparently got bigger as he got louder. “It was not human at all. It was scary. It was real. Nobody would make me change my mind about this. I really think it was the real deal. I really believe it to this day.”

Steven: Oof. And that’s–

Em: Horrifying.

Steven: –almost a little over 40 years ago?

Em: Yeah.

Steven: You said May 10, so.

Em: Yeah. Oh, wow. Like really coming up on it.

Steven: Yeah, yeah, coming up.

Em: 24 years. 44 years.

Steven: 4– Yeah.

Em: Um, they say that the figure hung around for an hour, which is crazy to me because if I were a teenager and I thought I saw Bigfoot, I would at least have gotten a camera or I would have ma–

Steven: [laughs]

Em: –thrown something near it.

Steven: “Hey, is Bigfoot still out there?” [pretends to growl and roar] [laughs]

Em: [laughs] I think if I were 16, certainly I wouldn’t be thinking clearly. I’d be like, “Oh my god, it’s right here.” Like I’d– I don’t know. I would react differently than just staring at it.

Steven: [sighs]

Em: I would at least wave someone over and be like, “You gotta see this.”

Steven: I mean, there was a– Again, going back to like the wildlife in, in that part of Orange County. Like the– I remember very clearly, one morning, I went out to go get the newspaper, when you, when you still read the comics in the newspaper–

Em: Sure.

Steven: –and I like stopped like halfway down the driveway because there was a coyote just sitting in front of the newspaper, and I was like–

Em: [chuckles] Oh my god. Like, like waiting for you?

Steven: Yeah. Like waiting, waiting to devour me, like–

Em: [chuckles] And they’re big, by the way. I thought coyotes– I mean, they’re not wolf-sized, but they’re much bigger than I thought they were.

Steven: No, no. And I was– This was probably when I was like, I don’t know, 12 or something–

Em: Yeah, it was gonna getcha.

Steven: –so I was kind of just like [makes a wide-eyed expression, raising a hand slightly and shaking his head]. You know?

Em: Yeah.

Steven: It just stood there, looked at me, was like, “Yo, what’s up?”

Em: Did you just slowly back away?

Steven: Yeah, I just went back inside. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] Okay. I was like, “Did you– Just a face-off?”

Steven: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Em: Uh–

Steven: I punched it. No!

Em: [laughs]

Steven: I would never.

Em: And as it got– As it grew, it resu– roared and got bigger.

Steven: Yeah, yeah. And I rode it into battle.

Em: Yeah. You know, you should have ended it that way actually, Steven.

Steven: Yes. [chuckles]

Em: So not only were they watching it for an hour, apparently just sitting on them– on their thumbs doing nothing, just watching it, they saw it splashing around in the water. They were hearing it kind of make weird sounds. I was like, “There’s so many opportunities to like do something.” I don’t know.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I don’t know what I would do. I don’t– I just–

Steven: [makes the sound of shooting a dart] Dart.

[Steven mimes and makes the sound of a dart hitting the creature and then a roar as he pretends to fall over]

Em: In my mind, if the story could have been juicier, I’m mad that it wasn’t. Like you riding a coyote into battle.

Steven: Yeah, yeah. [chuckles]

Em: Um, apparently, it did growl one final time before it ran off, and they said it sounded like if Godzilla and a gorilla had a baby.

Steven: Oh, so if King Kong and Godzilla [chuckles] shacked up.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Literally– Isn’t there a movie of Godzilla and King Kong beating each other up?

Steven: Yeah, yeah. There’s, there’s a few.

Em: So tho– that sound exactly is what it sounded like apparently.

Steven: I mean, that Godzilla sound, it’s– I know this because a friend wrote a Godzilla comic, Jordan Morris. The God– the official Godzilla sound is “skreeonk.”

Em: Sc–

Steven: [pretends to yell] “Skreeonk!” Yeah.

Em: Thank you.

Steven: S-K-R-E-O-O-N-K, I think, or something like that.

Em: And the official spelling. Thank you.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: You know what? Okay–

Steven: I come here with Godzilla facts.

Em: Re– Like I didn’t see that coming, but I’m so glad you did. I, um– At the dog park, I’m– Hank’s birthday is coming up, and I’ve already told people I’m gonna do something, and I was thinking about thrusting it upon everybody at the dog park that day to do a spelling bee.

Steven: [laughs]

Em: I think “skreeonk” is gonna be the final word. And they’re– And I’ll be like–

Steven: “Please use it in a sentence.”

Em: I’ll be like, “Um, Godzilla sound– His sound is a skreeonk.”

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I mean, it’s kind of like that’s my new Scrabble word that gets me in trouble.

Steven: Ooh, yeah. Yeah.

Em: It’s like, “No, it’s a real word. Don’t worry about it.”

Steven: Yeah. Skreeonk.

Em: Thank you. That’s probably the most fun fact you guys will hear on this episode.

Steven: [laughs]

Em: Um, okay. So it splashed around. It made a skreeonk, and then it– Made a skreeonk? It “skreeonked.”

Steven: Skreeonked. Yeah.

Em: Okay. And then it ran off further down the creek, so nobody could see it anymore. But the kids were like, “We have to tell someone.” Finally, an hour later, they’re saying this. And so they call the apartment manager’s– the ca– the apartment complex’s manager, and he’s like, “I don’t believe this. These are just some kids trying to mess with me.” And I guess when the kids finally wave him over, he does see the shadow of it last minute.

Steven: [gasps]

Em: And he can still smell it. This thing is down the river, and he’s like, “I– What was that smell?” So this thing really is pretty stinky. Um, and also his wife claimed to also see it. They basically saw shadows in the tunnel and that was kind of as far as they got. But they did also hear a skreeonk, although they didn’t describe it as a Godzilla gorilla sound. They described it as “like the dinosaurs in the movies, and it smelled like hell, worse than a sewer.”

Steven: Interesting. ’Cause it’s 1982. So then it would have been something like Land of the Lost or like–

Em: Yeah, we could’ve–

Steven: –King Kong or like– It’s pre-Jurassic Park, so.

Em: We could have zhuzhed it up.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: Yeah, ’cause they’re saying, “like the dinosaurs in the movies.” You have to wonder what movies are they talking about?

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Um, so Frank, who is the manager– His wife, Lorraine, also witnessed this. But Frank agreed that it sounded horrifying. And by the time he got there, the monster was pretty much already down the water. So, he only witnessed the shadows but did see some large tracks in the ground. With that, that was enough for him to wanna call the cops and be like, “We just saw something different–“

Steven: Yeah.

Em: “–than all the other animals. Um, can you please come?” And it took the cops an hour to show because they thought that this was a prank call.

Steven: Sure.

Em: By the time they got there, they like couldn’t find anything or they said they didn’t find anything. It sounds like they didn’t really try to find anything, and they basically said, “Oh, it must have been someone’s pet,” which is crazy. [chuckles]

Steven: [laughs]

Em: It’s insane. So, um, they didn’t do anything, but by the time that they got there, I guess like a– some reporter heard about them in the woods looking for an odd animal, and the story just kind of spread like crazy. Within three days, they were getting 200 to 500 calls within that week–

Steven: Whoa.

Em: –to the police station that people were seeing a monster in their town. Horrifying.

Steven: Yeah. And Buena Park is just a very– It’s just a, you know– I mean, I mean, having a theme park in your, your city is pretty cool, I guess, but like, you know, it’s not– there’s not a lot going on, I think, in Buena Park – or there wasn’t when I was growing up, so.

Em: I don’t know much. All I know is Knott’s and– I, I, I know very little–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –’cause I– I’m not a local. But I’m gonna take your word for that. And it’s funny that you mentioned, um, theme parks right before this bullet point because one of the things I wanted to share with you was in that newspaper report that came out, um, this is how they started the newspaper article: “Some people living near Disneyland think the Abominable Snowman has wandered off of the amusement park’s famous Matterhorn ride and has taken up residence in the sewer drain.” And when this newspaper article came out, mass hysteria in town. This is what led to the 200, 500– to 500 phone calls, and people within 24 hours had organized a monster hunt, which, again–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –that’s who I wanted when they were just staring at this thing for an hour. They were like, “We’re gonna go find this, and we don’t know what we’re gonna do once we find it, but we gotta get there.”

Steven: Wow. They really organized.

Em: L– Quickly. Like this whole story is like a week long.

Steven: Wow.

Em: And they– 100 people came to this hunt. I, I don’t know how they’ve got it together so quickly, but– It’s those damn screens distracting us.

Steven: [laughs]

Em: So cops were getting a bunch of calls of panicked locals. People were like locking their kids inside, thinking that the monster was gonna come get them.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: And actually, paranormal investigators also came out to get tracks of this thing to fi– to follow it down the river. And they actually used dowsing rods, which is interesting because they’re these rods that a lot of times are affected by water.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: So if you’re trying to communicate with something– Maybe they were using them to just follow where the water went, but aren’t you standing next to a creek? You can see where the water goes.

Steven: [sighs] I mean, it– But like– Yeah. Orange County, like the rivers there– I feel like that’s a very generous term.

Em: Okay.

Steven: Like there’s a river that goes– that empties out in between Newport Beach and Huntington Beach that maybe is this river that they’re referring to. But, you know, it’s like the L.A. River. It’s like a aqueduct, you know.

Em: Mm. Okay, that makes me feel better.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: So then maybe they were using the dowsing rods not in a paranormal way, but in a “let’s just keep following the water way”?

Steven: [laughs] Yeah. You’re like, “Oh, this thing’s e– this thing’s just a concrete ditch for 90% of the year,” you know.

Em: Which would make you think that it’s a lot easier to find this thing if there’s like– It’s not like he’s hiding underwater or anything.

Steven: True. But yeah, there are–

Em: Were there a lot of tunnels?

Steven: There are big like culverts and things and stuff along that.

Em: Okay.

Steven: So like I remember when I did marathon– When I ran the L.A. Marathon, we would run along that river–

Em: Oh?

Steven: –to like train for it and stuff.

Em: Okay.

Steven: So–

Em: Good to know. You ran the L.A. Marathon?

Steven: Twice, yeah. When I was s–

Em: The “twice” was crazy.

Steven: 17 and 18, yeah. I–

Em: Ah! Good for you, Steven.

Steven: I wanted to do it like later in life, but now, at this point, it’s like a health risk for, for people to do it over a certain age. [chuckles] Like–

Em: Really? I didn’t know that.

Steven: Like your chances of heart attack is a lot higher after a certain age.

Em: Oh.

Steven: Like I think 35 or something.

Em: Okay. So you’re saying I have like a year and a half left until like, like medically don’t ever have to agree to run a marathon with somebody.

Steven: Yeah. Well, you could do like a half marathon.

Em: No, no. No, no.

Steven: You wanna do 26.2?

Em: I mean, I just wanna not be able to do it–

Steven: Or .1?

Em: –and say a doctor said that it’s, it’s for the best.

Steven: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [chuckles]

Em: I– Okay.

Steven: Liability.

Em: I just have to hold on for like 18 more months and hope nobody asks.

Steven: Yeah.

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Em: Uh– Oh, we got a little kitty. I did see someone like almost try to get me earlier, and I was keeping my eye on it.

[A brown tabby cat comes over to Steven, and he picks her up, kissing her and setting her on the chair next to him.]

Steven: This is Bidi Bidi Bom Bom.

Em: Little baby. Little baby.

Steven: She’s Jennifer Lawrence in cut-off jeans. That’s how I think of her.

Em: [laughs] I know you’ve said it to me before, but it– I get it. I know what you’re– [laughs]

Steven: [in a Southern accent] “I– I’m not like the other moms. I’m like a cool mom,” you know?

Em: [laughs]

Steven: Like that’s her attitude.

Em: I mean, she really does start swinging on them if they act up.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Like it’s, it’s very, um, entertaining here.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: So, uh, let’s see. Oh, so they had paranormal investigators come out. I don’t know if they had them come out or the investigators just kind of arrived when they heard this monster hunt was happening. While they were out though, they ended up finding, uh, one pr– like print in the mud–

Steven: [gasps]

Em: –that they thought was okay, but half of it seemed kind of destroyed and messed with.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: So, they got a cast of the first half of the track, and they were like, “Let’s look for something else.” They ended up crawling into a tunnel and finding like a really good print where they said that they even tried leaning– like tried replicating it, but they weren’t heavy enough to make that kind of indent.

Steven: Whoa.

Em: And so they were like, “We gotta, we gotta make a plaster cast of this right now,” and one of the kids was like, “You saw a track? Where?” Like one of the kids on the monster hunt with them and ran up and destroyed it.

Steven: Ugh.

Em: And then only destroyed a part of it, and they were like, “Let’s at least get the other half.” And then another kid stepped on it and fully destroyed it, so. [chuckles]

Steven: [sighs] Don’t let–

Em: Damn kids.

Steven: –kids near crime scenes.

Em: Like it’s that simple. I’m– I’ll– Right there with you.

Steven: I just had another recovered memory. I think it was for my birthday when I was really young. But there was, there was like a little creek and like a big tunnel– ’Cause the part of Anaheim I grew up in there was like a lot of hills and stuff. So there was like this big tunnel that– or this tunnel– that sewer tunnel that empties out into a creek. And I– For some reason, I think my mom or my dad put like my Ninja Turtle toys out there. It was like they had come out from the sewer.

Em: That would have blown my mind. That would have been–

Steven: It's like really– Like it’s like I can picture it. And so that’s honestly what I’ve been picturing this whole story–

Em: Wow. [chuckles]

Steven: –because I’m not too far from Buena Park, but Buena Park’s a little bit more flat and stuff and that.

Em: I love that. I, I– If I had Ninja Turtle toys, I would have absolutely played with them by the sewer or left them by the sewer–

Steven: [laughs]

Em: –or at least had a photo shoot of them by the sewer.

Steven: Yeah, yeah. Of course, you got to.

Em: Especially if there was a rat nearby, I’d be like, “Don’t move!” [mimes taking a photo]

Steven: [laughs] “Master Splinter!”

Em: [laughs] Um, so anyway, they had this whole monster hunt. Pretty much nothing ended up turning up from it. And even the original people who witnessed this, the, the teenagers and the manager, the apartment manager, they were like, “Oh, well, of course it didn’t show up because it was 100 people there and it scared it away.” So that was their reasoning.

Steven: You know what? I mean, it’s not bad reasoning. [chuckles]

Em: They could be right. They could be right. Um, but they could also be wrong and just, uh, in denial, so. [chuckles]

Steven: Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: So to assuage everyone’s fears because, I mean, the monster hunt happened. They’re getting hundreds of calls, this police station, and we haven’t found anything, and people are literally locking their families inside and creating their own curfew ’cause they’re scared of this thing. The police are like, “We have to do something at least to stop the phone calls from coming in.”

Steven: Sure.

Em: And so they have this press conference where they say, “Hey, everyone, we found the monster.” Now, people know my opinion on the police as a whole, but– and I– I’m gonna just say it sounds like they were actively quickly just trying to cover this up or just shut everybody up.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: That’s my guess because if you found it and then didn’t give everyone the satisfaction of showing us an image of it–

Steven: “Show us the feet!”

Em: Yeah, exact– [chuckles] [chanting] Feet pics! Feet pics!

Steven: [chanting] Feet pics!

Em: And, um, the fact that they never did that, I’m skeptical of them. Um, but who knows? They did say at this p-press conference, “We got a picture of it.” Now, hang on. The picture w– The photographer was this like paranormal expert or supernatural expert and also a photographer. How convenient.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: And he, I guess, got a picture of something, and then the police just decided that this was the Buena Park Monster. It ended up being not an eight-or-nine-foot being. It was a random 6’4” homeless man who had a bunch of grease all over him. And so now–

Steven: Oh.

Em: –the story gets sad–

Steven: Oh. [sighs]

Em: –’cause now we’re like, oh man. People were literally hunting down like a guy who’s already down on his luck–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: –living in the fucking tunnels, lives in a sewer, so he smells like a sewer, and everyone is just quoting– just getting quotes in the paper about how stinky he is. He’s having a rough time.

Steven: [sighs]

Em: And so, I mean, realistically was it Bigfoot or just like a man who was living in the sewer? Probably a man living in the sewer, but I feel bad that all of this press happened on him that, uh– and he’s already going through a situation. That being said, the people who are skeptical that this is just some sort of cover up from the police and they very strongly believe this monster is real, they called bullshit immediately on this picture. They were like, “Well, hobos don’t live in tunnels.” That was an exact quote. “Hobo–“ Not an exact– Hang on. Here’s the exact one: “A hobo doesn’t walk in the water. He walks along railroad tracks.” And I was like, “So now we’re just super duper stereotyping–“

Steven: Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: “–people who are–“

Steven: Just [sings a Western film sting], like, [singing in a Western music style] ♪ Riding the rails ♪♪, you know?

Em: [laughs] It’s like, “Does he also have like a plaid bindle on a stick?”

Steven: Yes, yes. [chuckles]

Em: Like– Anyway, so they were just looking for any reason to be like, “It can’t be. I know what I saw.” And maybe they did, but it has never been seen since. One of the witnesses who was a teenager at the time has since said that he is so adamant. He knows what he saw. The Buena Park Monster is very real. Um, and he said– Oh, this was another– [chuckles] Yikes. This– These– They really doubled down on just ripping on this poor homeless man. They said, “If they would have seen and smelled him, they would be believers.” Like it was, it was for sure a monster. And I’m like, “Jesus. Like you couldn’t even have a heart after the fact.”

Steven: [sighs] I mean, Orange County is a very conservative part of California, so their attitudes towards unhoused isn’t– that’s not surprising– [chuckles]

Em: Okay.

Steven: –that they would just kind of like–

Em: We’re on par. Excellent.

Steven: –beat on, beat on it. Like, “By the way,” you know. Like–

Em: It’s like, “I must be right because he smelled so bad”–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: –and I’m like, “[gritted teeth] He’s already unhoused.”

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Okay. So, anyway, that is kind of where it ended because once people decided– at least enough people saw this picture and assumed, “Maybe– I wasn’t there. I never saw it. Maybe this really was the ‘creature,’” quote. Um, and so enough people died down where the, the hysteria kind of, you know, waned very quickly.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: So before it fully dropped off though, CBS’s Dan Rather covered it–

Steven: [laughs]

Em: –which is, I guess, um, a highlight. And also two months later, there was another sighting of very large prints that was– I think it was like 15 inches tall.

Steven: Wow.

Em: Like it’s a big-ass print, by seven inches wide.

Steven: Wow.

Em: It’s a bi– It’s a– But also I don’t know if there was like some prankster or just, you know, someone maybe was just trying to put a, a random fake Bigfoot print on the ground. I don’t know.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I don’t know what was going on. But, uh, they did take a cast of that, and they did, um, have, quote, “Bigfoot experts” s– give it a look, and they did say it looked very similar to other Bigfoot prints that they had archived.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: So good for them. Um, that print, by the way, is now at, uh, what’s now called the Ralph B. Clark Regional Park.

Steven: Okay.

Em: Do you know about this park?

Steven: I mean, I’ve probably been to that park ’cause I played Little League growing up, so maybe–

Em: Precious.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: It was– used to be called Los– I’m gonna say Los Coyotes [pronounced “kai-yoh-tees”], but it’s Los Coyotes [pronounced “kai-yoh-tes”], I think, uh, Park.

Steven: I mean, I feel like if I saw– if I looked it up, I’m sure I’d recognize it.

Em: Okay. Well, it’s now the Ralph B. Clark Regional Park, which in short is the Clark Park, of course.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: And, um, the, the print that I was just talking about where they found it a cou– not too far away, um, they did say that it did look similar to Bigfoot prints, and it is, it is currently being there. But I wanna end on telling you some fun facts about the Clark Park.

Steven: Okay.

Em: I think you’re gonna get into this.

Steven: Okay.

Em: So the Clark Park was a former excavation pit. Hang on. I– By the way, this is interesting to Steven because he’s a big dinosaur nerd if you didn’t hear earlier. Um, it is a former excavation pit. It is, uh, the OC’s paleontology hub with, quote, “one of the most concentrated fossil beds in Southern California.” And it is the only museum–

Steven: Whoa.

Em: I got all this information, by the way, from the OC Register. It is the only museum in OC dedicated to locally found fossils and has a dozen active dig sites. So– And you can go there. And–

Steven: What the hell have I been doing my whole life? [chuckles]

Em: They have an extensive fossil collection with fossils up to 80 million years old. And I just wanted to shout-out a few of those fossils that they have in their collection that you could probably go see right now. Uh, and also, not only is this dinosaur fossils, I also know you’re a big fan of marine life.

Steven: Yes.

Em: So there’s a little more of that here. The first fossil that you can find there is a nearly complete nine-million-year-old skeleton of a whale named Joaquin.

Steven: Oh? [chuckles]

Em: They named him Joaquin. And this is a quote from that article that I read: “Joaquin displays a period of whale evolution, and whales evolved when four-legged mammals–“ Tell me if you knew this.

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: “Whales evolved when four-legged mammals living on the shoreline gradually made their way back to the sea. Joaquin’s skeleton shows that evolution by having the remnants of a pelvis and a femur.” So this whale has a pelvis and a femur, and you can go see that there.

Steven: That’s awesome.

Em: There’s also, uh, one of those active dig sites I told you about. They recently found a horse there, which now they have named the horse Tony the Pony. And they also found another horse’s molars. That horse is named Jackpot. ’Cause when they hit it, they went, “Oh, jackpot.”

Steven: Nice.

Em: Um, the third fossil you’d be interested in, I think, is this hippo-like manatee called a Paleoparadoxia.

Steven: Yeah. Yeah.

Em: And fun fact, at this place, they have the largest Paleoparadoxia to ever be found. It’s twice as big as any other one.

Steven: Yeah. I’m– My friend, Gabriel, who does, uh, who does– Gabriel Santos who does Cosplay For Science. He studies those.

Em: Well, I bet he has been at Clark Park.

Steven: Yeah. I’m–

Em: And then the last one I’m gonna tell you about, I think this will– This is the most fun fact for me. Hopefully, it’s also fun for you. That there are very few dinosaur fossils in Orange County at all. Do you know that?

Steven: A li– Kind of. I feel like that’s why maybe I didn’t– maybe why I’m not as familiar with this park–

Em: Sure.

Steven: –and all their fossil glory.

Em: Well, I– it’s because at the time, back in the day, the– uh, Orange County was underwater.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: So, there’s very few prehistoric dinosaur fossils. And they estimate over there that maybe, maybe two to three shoeboxes would hold all the fossils of Orange County dinosaurs.

Steven: Wow.

Em: And so, that being said, although there’s very few local dinosaurs to the area, there are nine pieces of hadrosaurs that you can find there.

Steven: That’s cool.

Em: And–

Steven: I love the duck-billed.

Em: –the last thing I’m gonna say is that Clark Park, only 1% of the museum’s collection is displayed for the public. Um, but I have a feeling you could probably get in there real quick–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: –and you could see maybe 2% or 3% of the collection.

Steven: Yeah, we’ll go on a trip.

Em: Would love that.

Steven: There’s tons of small museums like the Alf Paleo Center and like the Western Science Museum. All these museums are in Southern California. I’ve never been to any of them.

Em: Really? I– You strike me as a museum guy.

Steven: I– [sighs] Yeah, I guess I’m like a mainstream museum guy.

Em: Sure. [laughs]

Steven: Like I’ve spent and wo-worked with the Natural History Museum of L.A. a bunch, but I gotta branch out.

Em: Well, now you have somewhere to go. Um, and it’s in your hometown.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: So, anyway, that is the Buena Park Monster. And–

Steven: [sighs] I love that.

Em: I’m so happy.

Steven: It’s so– It’s such an ‘80s story. It’s like Bigfoot comes to the suburbs, and it’s like a week-long like te– Like it–

Em: And it sounds like Godzilla. [laughs]

Steven: ’Cause that’s the year that E.T. came out too, so like it just feels like children, monster, going on an adventure, like–

Em: Yeah. It’s kind of like how in the ‘40s and ‘50s they ended up having like the UFO craze.

Steven: Yes.

Em: Uh, was it because of like World War II, all of the spaceships and aircraft that was being built or–

Steven: Sure. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. Like–

Em: Little Sputnik or something.

Steven: Well, ’cause– No, ’cause wasn’t Roswell in ’35?

Em: ’35? I thought it was ’40-something.

Steven: Maybe– Yeah.

Em: I don’t know. I– But–

Steven: I’m not, I’m not a UFO guy as much as I am like–

Em: I–

Steven: –ocean and dinosaurs.

Em: I do plan to go to Roswell this year, I think, for my birthday. So–

Steven: That would be really exciting.

Em: –I’ll let you know.

Steven: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh.

Em: But anyway, that is my, my story for you. I–

Steven: [sighs] I love it.

Em: –I hope you liked it. Um–

Steven: No, I, I– I mean, yeah, I don’t know a– I didn’t know anything about it. I didn’t know that we had our own little monster craze.

Em: That makes me very happy that you didn’t know it. I would have felt very s– Well, I don’t know ’cause if you knew about it, you could have, uh, chimed in every now and then. But I’m glad that I shocked you with something about– that was local to you, so.

Steven: No, that’s so fun. I– Now it just makes me wanna ask my parents if they remember this.

Em: Yeah. I mean, I wonder how far out it’s– the rumor spread.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Like was it only like within five– a five mile radius or was like did the whole town hear about this like crazy cryptid?

Steven: I mean, but yeah, my mom and my dad– ‘Cause they, I think, had only just recently gotten married at that time. Maybe a year or two before, a year or two after, but they were together at that point, and I think they were both working at banks in kind of like Tustin, Buena Park, Costa Mesa–

Em: Oh, wow.

Steven: –like that part of Southern California, yeah.

Em: So they must– They probably– not must have, but maybe–

Steven: They’re like pull out a t-shirt out of the, you know, like– [laughs]

Em: [laughs] They were on like “The Monster Hunt Team.” [gestures to their shirt as if it were written on a T-shirt]

Steven: “The Buena Park Monster”– Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Buena– “Buena Park Monster Team, 1982.”

Em: Yeah. I don’t know. That would be– Let me know if you find out–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: –anything about that.

Steven: Yeah.

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Steven’s Story – The Bone Wars aka Edward Drinker Cope and Othniel Charles Marsh

Steven: Wait, are we– So it’s my turn?

Em: Yeah, it’s your turn now.

Steven: Oh my gosh.

Em: I’m very excited. And I– Also round of applause to Steven because not only are you guesting, but now you are hosting physically, and I did ask you to to do research for this, which is already– I, I appreciate all the, the work you’ve put in.

Steven: No, I– Well, I wanted to– I took this as an opportunity to really dive into something that I’m interested in–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: –that I think– I don’t know if you know anything about this, but it’s really– [sighs] Okay. How, how am I gonna frame this story for you? This is very exciting.

Em: However you want.

Steven: It’s actually not that serious, but it’s, it’s not– It’s actually not that serious at all comparatively, but– Let’s see if I take my notes. But it’s funny because it is creature related.

Em: [gasps] Okay.

Steven: Yeah. But, uh, I wrote like– ’Cause this is the thing. I like work with so many people who write, research, do all these like wonderful stories, and I’m like, “Oh, wait.” Like for See Jurassic Right like I research for the guests–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: –you know. Like if I have somebody on, I’ll do research like, but I don’t ever like– I guess I don’t ever really write a story. So this was like a really fun opportunity.

Em: Oh, good. Okay, nice.

Steven: Yeah, yeah. So–

Em: Let me get my Evian on everyone, please. [picks up Evian water from table]

Steven: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, Mozart and Salieri. Mozart and Salieri, Edison and Tesla, Michelle Branch and Vanessa Carlton, that hot thrupple from Challengers, the greatest rivalries– the great rivalries of our time. This story isn’t really about dinosaurs. It’s about toxic masculinity. Welcome to the Bone Wars.

Em: [wheezing voice] What the fuck is going on? [laughs]

Steven: Do you know anything about this?

Em: I’m– [laughs] No. I’m so excited. What are you talking about? Okay. I’m so excited.

Steven: Okay.

Em: Okay. Okay. A real– I mean, talk about a mystery. Okay.

Steven: Well, I was like, is there anything spooky or crimey related to dinosaurs? And this is like the– probably one of– it– I mean, I would say it’s like one of– it is the biggest like dinosaur-related in that vein, you know.

Em: Take it away, Steven.

Steven: So I was like, “You know what? I gotta do it.”

Em: Oh my god.

Steven: Um, dinosaurs, or as I call them, “the prequel to birds,” have–

Em: [chuckles]

Steven: –obviously captured my imagination since I first saw Jurassic Park on the big screen in June of 1993.

Em: Did you write a paper?

Steven: I di– I mean, I– Yeah, I wrote a– [holds up his pages of notes]

Em: Oh my god. Okay. Okay.

Steven: Uh, this– I had a lot of fun with this, but I–

Em: I’m so happy.

Steven: –I, I think you mentioned on our Back to the Future - See Jurassic Right that you di– you didn’t see Jurassic Park on the big, big screen?

Em: I didn’t see it, period.

Steven: Oh, that’s– You still haven’t seen it?

Em: Nope.

Steven: Oh, that’s right. We talked about this at Bob’s Big Boy.

Em: We did. [chuckles]

Steven: You and, you and Haley. Oh my god.

Em: Yeah. Neither of us have watched– have seen it. I’ve seen like clips. I’ve seen the jello or the, the glass– the water on the table, [makes thudding sound] “boom, boom.”

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Like I k– It seems, seems good, but I’ve never watched it. [chuckles]

Steven: But what– ’Cause you love nostalgia. Again, we talked about this on Back to the Future– Like were you like a dinosaurs kid, a marine bio kid, construction? You know, I feel like there’s like different– like horse person–

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Steven: You know what I mean?

Em: Oh, yeah.

Steven: Like there’s different categories of kid. Like what kind of kid were you?

Em: That’s such a good question. I don’t– I, I mean, for a while, I was, um, a space and a spy kid.

Steven: Okay. Yeah, spy gear in the ‘90s was like huge.

Em: When everything was like plexiglass and it looked like high tech because you could kind of see through it.

Steven: Yeah. [laughs]

Em: Um– L–

Steven: Translucent technology.

Em: It really got me going. Yeah. I would sa– And I also I was a big– Like speaking of museums, if I ever had to go to a p– a museum, which we did talk about in sign language. She asked what our favorite types of museums are, I love a planetarium.

Steven: Yes, okay. So, you were a space kid.

Em: I was a space kid.

Steven: You never went to space camp though?

Em: A s– space and science kid, but I was not good at either. I just– I was fascinated by them.

Steven: No, sure. I mean, that’s one of those things where I’ve realized, again, obviously I didn’t go to that park or–

Em: Right.

Steven: Maybe I’ve been to that park and had no idea that there was bones there, but–

Em: Like I always wanted like the– It was, uh, before my time, but how every kid would get like a chemistry set.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I always wanted the chemistry set, but I also had a helicopter mom who thought I’d burn my eyes out, so. Whoops. Couldn’t–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: Never got one. [laughs]

Steven: The alternate timeline here.

Em: Yeah.

Steven: Um, so, continuing. Dinosaurs and religion have always been at odds with each other due to both being taught to us at a young age. And while non-Western societies have known about ancient bones for centuries, the idea of an extinct species of animal no longer walking the earth, that God could let one of its creatures die, troubled many. And that is the world that Othniel Charles Marsh, born in 1831, and E– and then Edward Drinker Cope, born 1840, came up as America’s leading, pardon me, dick-swinging paleontologists.

Em: [laughs]

Steven: So you don’t know anything about this?

Em: Every word you just said I’ve never heard of. Ornith– Is that where we get “ornithology,” like birds?

Steven: Uh, I mean, o–

Em: What was his name? Orthiniel.

Steven: Othniel.

Em: Othniel.

Steven: Oth-Othniel.

Em: Okay.

Steven: Yeah, yeah. No–

Em: Othniel.

Steven: I know it’s a– it’s– I don’t know if there’s anyone– I don’t think anyone’s been named that before or after.

Em: Since him, yeah.

Steven: And I mean, again, I love a Mozart and a Salieri story. Like I love these like rivalries, you know–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: –where like one person feels like the other one is getting success that the other one doesn’t deserve.

Em: It’s giving Hamilton.

Steven: Yeah. Oh, totally. Hamilton’s part of that too as well. Um, although, I, I shouldn’t besmirch Michelle Branch and Vas– Vanessa Carlton ’cause I love them both equally.

Em: I– And that’s fine.

Steven: But I just thought it would be fun to throw that example in ’cause– [laughs]

Em: You really threw me at first. I was like, “What are we talking about?” [laughs]

Steven: [laughs] And Edison and Tesla, of course, you know.

Em: That one was a little clearer to me.

Steven: Yes, yes. That example makes more sense, but–

Em: That one, that one has more heat behind it, I think.

Steven: But so the “first,” quote unquote, again, just speaking in Western civilization terms–

Em: Sure.

Steven: –the first dinosaur bone was found in England in a quarry in 1676, Megalosaurus. I call them the, uh– Like any T. Rex or Velociraptor, I call them “meaty boys.”

Em: Love that. Okay.

Steven: Um–

Em: ’Cause they eat meat?

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Okay.

Steven: [chuckles] Very simple.

Em: Great. I didn’t know if it’s ’cause they were like they got a thick little tushy or something.

Steven: No. I mean, I mean, some of these dinosaurs were caked up, but, um–

Em: [laughs] Okay.

Steven: Uh, another iconic first find was Iguanodon by Mary Ann Mantell in 1822. Um, Iguanodon is like the Disney movie, uh, dinosaur. It has like– It’s like a plant-eater.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: Um, and it’s got like a big spike for a thumb to like get plants.

Em: Fun.

Steven: Yeah. Very s– Like kind of almost– It doesn’t look like an anteater, but it like, you know– it has like claws for non-killing things.

Em: Sure.

Steven: You know.

Em: Sure.

Steven: Um, and then in 1842, paleontologist Sir Richard Owen coined the term “dinosaur,” meaning “terrible lizard.”

Em: Love that. I did not know “terrible” was involved, but I knew “lizard” was involved.

Steven: Yes. And then Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species, published in 1859, introduced the theory of evolution by natural selection. Okay, that’s enough background. [laughs]

Em: I still loved it though. I never knew that it– The first dinosaur was found in the 1600s?

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I– It’s, it’s so crazy to me that there were people who just had no fucking clue that there were dinosaurs.

Steven: I mean, that’s why I find it inter– Like, that’s why dinosaurs are so interesting ’cause it was like the first time people were like, “Wait, like God let animals–“ Like people just–

Em: Oof.

Steven: –assumed that all animals that had ever lived were still alive, you know–

Em: Crazy.

Steven: –in We– in Western society.

Em: Crazy.

Steven: And so, dinosaurs were like part of this, you know, slow rise of science in our society.

Em: I’m shocked that that didn’t rattle more people about like the ethics of God that–

Steven: I mean, it, it totally does. And it’s– Yeah, it’s a whole thing that I really wanna like dive into more ’cause I know a lot of people with religious trauma.

Em: If you ever wanna come back on And That’s Why We Drink–

Steven: Yeah. [laughs]

Em: –you’re more than welcome to talk about it.

Steven: It’s, it’s– That’s– That– That’s like, um– I’m so excited to dive into it ’cause there’s a lot of fascinating stuff related to that.

Em: So does that mean– The 1600s, that means– Did George Washington know dinosaurs existed?

Steven: Well, I think by– Yeah. By the 1700s, people were starting, you know– white people essentially were starting to find bones of creatures and being like, “Maybe they were giants. Maybe they were–“

Em: Got it.

Steven: You know, again, like starting to be like, “Okay, maybe they’re giant lizards. Maybe they’re like–“ You know, it was– wasn’t really clear. It was just like clearly these bones don’t match anything that’s still alive.

Em: Something’s going on. Yeah.

Steven: Yeah, something’s going on.

Em: Okay.

Steven: Um, so let’s get to know our combatants.

Em: [gasps]

Steven: [in a dramatic voice] New challenger approaches!

Em: [laughs]

Steven: Um, Othniel Charles Marsh was what you might describe as the traditional stereotype of a scientist – all facts, all study, focused on his work, and a believer in Darwin’s theory of evolution.

Em: Okay.

Steven: He wasn’t the most social or affable guy and never married.

Em: Okay.

Steven: And maybe–

Em: Just a nerd.

Steven: And maybe was on the spectrum a little bit.

Em: Sure.

Steven: From descriptions of– There was like a, a– One of his friends described him of like, “He– Even though we were– had known each other for years, he acted like, like we had never met every time,” you know– [chuckles]

Em: [laughs]

Steven: –or something like that. I was like, “Oh, wow.”

Em: He was really locked in on his, on his data. Yeah.

Steven: Yeah. Marsh was born in New York City, and after his father’s business troubles and his mother’s death during childbirth (not his childbirth), the family settled on a farm in Massachusetts where Marsh was expected to help. But listeners, he was not interested in being a farmer.

Em: [gasps] I don’t think so.

Steven: Um, and thanks to his wealthy uncle, George Peabody, who’s a banker, Marsh didn’t have to settle for life on the farm and instead traded up for a life of academia, enjoying the study of minerals and fossils at Yale.

Em: Nerd alert.

Steven: [laughs]

Em: Yeah.

Steven: But it’s like you just– I don’t know. Anytime you hear stories about like schooling, you know, 100 to 200 years ago, it just is such a different– Like I went to UC Santa Barbara, so it was just like, [making the “hang loose” hand gesture] “Whoa! School on the beach.” Like–

Em: Yeah. But back then it was like, “Oh, you made it into a prestigious institution.”

Steven: But you went back to s– You went to school back east.

Em: I did, but I– not, not at Yale. [laughs]

Steven: [laughs] I just–

Em: I’ll tell you that. It was more of a [making the “hang loose” hand gesture] “whoo!” kind of place.

Steven: Yeah. But just like– I’m just– Brick and ivy, you know?

Em: Yeah.

Steven: That’s how I picture this, you know?

Em: Yeah. And I– But I also wonder if you were to time travel back and be at Yale hundreds of years ago, how– like what was the quality of the education I wonder?

Steven: [making the “hang loose” hand gesture] “Whoo!”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Steven: With a pil– with a–

Em: With a quill. [laughs]

Steven: –with a quill. “Whoo! Party at our place, don’t protest.”

Em: It’s like etched into stone. [laughs]

Steven: Yeah, yeah. “Thy don’t be a–“ I don’t know. I’m trying to speak–

Em: A curmudg–

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: A tom fool of–

Steven: Yeah. Exactly.

Em: Something, yeah.

Steven: You know, old-timey language.

Em: I’m with you.

Steven: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Edward Drinker Cope, on the other hand, which again, Drinker as a middle name–

Em: Like he would do a great job at my college.

Steven: He was, [making the “hang loose” hand gesture] “Whoo!”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Steven: [laughs] –uh, on the other hand, was a Philly boy–

Em: Okay.

Steven: –born to a wealthy Quaker family, and was much more congenial than Marsh.

Em: Okay.

Steven: Hold for page drop. I don’t know how Karen and Georgia did this when they–

Em: [laughs]

Steven: I would print them their stories every week.

Em: Would they do it with paper?

Steven: Yeah, yeah. I would print out the stories for them every week.

Em: Wow.

Steven: Um–

Em: Well, let them know. [laughs]

Steven: So, to me, Marsh was the Steve Wozniak as Cope is to Steve Jobs.

Em: Okay.

Steven: So, it’s like that’s another great not necessarily rivalry, but this idea that like one person is kind of like the face, the showman, the like– the s– the, you know, the personality hire. [chuckles]

Em: Yeah. No, I totally get it. That makes sense.

Steven: And then the other person is like the actual person doing the work.

Em: Yeah.

Steven: And so– Yeah. Um, Cope’s religious upbringing prevented him from ever fully buying into Darwin’s theory of evolution and natural selection. So, just another helpful distinguishing between the two of them.

Em: Totally.

Steven: ’Cause, you know, I’ve been making these great rivalry comparisons, but th– it’s like a little bit different than some of them.

Em: Okay.

Steven: You know, there’s all– there’s kind of unique aspects to each rivalry. Um, but yeah, like I feel like–

Em: I wonder how this story– ’Cause if it’s, it’s, it’s– What were the years? They were born in the 1830s, right?

Steven: They were born in– 1831 was Marsh, so he’s a little bit older–

Em: Okay.

Steven: –and then Cope was born in 1840.

Em: Ho– H– It’s fascinating to me how this information is still out there. Were they– Did they have diaries where they just wrote about how they hate each other or like–

Steven: We’re gonna get into it.

Em: [gasps] Okay.

Steven: Yeah. And Cope was raised to be a gentleman farmer, aka how all millennials now in their 30s and 40s have gotten into crafting, archery, ceramics–

Em: Sure.

Steven: –and ASL–

Em: Sure. [laughs]

Steven: –um, analog. Um, so Cope lived off the family dime to pursue science for the sake of science, not profit, and without much proper schooling.

Em: Okay.

Steven: He was, he was a vibe scientist. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Yeah, it sounds like it. He was like, “It ain’t, it ain’t much work, but it’s honest work.”

Steven: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. He was just– Yeah. Cope was the one– He was the, he was the rich kid who was popular and fun, and Marsh was the scientist like, [in an overly serious tone] “I, I just care about my work,” you know? Like–

Em: They’re both getting into it for different reasons.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Steven: Um, eventually, Cope did go to the University of Pennsylvania and study under Joseph Leidy who was one of the OG paleontologists in North America. And then during the Civil War, both Cope and Marsh left the country behind and had their fateful meeting at the University of Berlin in 1864.

Em: Wow.

Steven: So, unfortunately, Heated Rivalry this is not.

Em: Okay. Got it. [laughs] In a different way, maybe.

Steven: Maybe. But they had spent, they had spent some time together in Berlin, chatting about their love of fossils, ancient life, and more, and they even named some extinct species after one another.

Em: Fun. Oh, it’s kind of like the reverse Wicked where like they seem to really be getting along initially.

Steven: You know what? You’re right. It is kind of like Wicked a little bit.

Em: Yeah, it’s a– “We, we met at school,” you know. [laughs]

Steven: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Oh my god, it really is Wicked.

Em: And I mean, naming dinosaurs after each other is–

Steven: [singing to tune of “For Good” from Wicked] ♪ I thought I knew you ♪♪

Em: It’s literally the most bromantic thing you can do.

Steven: Right?

Em: Yeah.

Steven: “Dearest,” you know, “Cope, I named this tiny lizard after you.”

Em: You know, I do wonder like who got the cooler dinosaur named after them.

Steven: [sighs] Well, neither of them named dinosaurs after each other.

Em: Oh, lizards.

Steven: From what I remember, they were like– I think it was like an ancient shell and like a lizard. So, I didn’t get too into– Again, ’cause the story isn’t really about the dinosaurs as much. It’s more about these two characters.

Em: Sure.

Steven: But, but um, yeah, we’ll get it– we’ll get in more into that.

Em: That is still very romantic. It is still kind of Heated Rivalry.

Steven: No, no.

Em: So far.

Steven: And I– Yeah, ’cause I interviewed a paleontologist, uh, Dr. Thomas Rich in Melbourne last year and–

Em: Mm.

Steven: –his wife, who’s also a paleontologist, Dr. Patricia Vickers, they named two dinosaurs after their kids.

Em: Get the hell out of here.

Steven: And I’m like [sighs] what a baller move.

Em: That’s incredible. That’s incredible.

Steven: You know what? Em, “Emosaurus.” You know?

Em: Emosaurus isn’t that bad.

Steven: Em, “Emotitan.”

Em: What would you be though if you had to name a dinosaur after you?

Steven: [sighs] “Morasaurus.” [laughs]

Em: I mean, [laughs] come on. A “Morasaur.”

Steven: Yeah, a Morasaur.

Em: That’s– It–

Steven: That’s love too. “Amorasaur.” Amour. Anyway.

Em: I mean, well, we figured that one out pretty quick.

Steven: Yeah. I, I wrote “now kiss” at the end of that sentence. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Okay.

Steven: [with a lisp] “Now kiss.” [spoken with usual voice] Um, back in America after the Civil War, both men began their professional paleontological careers. Marsh became the head of the Natural History Museum at Yale, which I didn’t know where Yale was, so I had to look it up. It’s–

Em: Connecticut, right?

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Okay.

Steven: I’ve never been back east.

Em: Oh, fascinating.

Steven: Um, so maybe I should do a dinosaur tour, like go to all these like old museums and like–

Em: A “dino-tour.” I mean–

Steven: Hello.

Em: [laughs]

Steven: Um–

Em: The Morasaurus is on a dino-tour.

Steven: Yes.

Em: Great.

Steven: And so yeah, Marsh became the head of the Natural History Museum of Yale because his uncle, that rich George Peabody, bought and paid for the museum to be built and was like, “By the way, you can have my nephew run it.”

Em: Must be nice.

Steven: Must be nice. Uh, meanwhile, Cope became a zoology professor at Haverford College in Pennsylvania and was a member of the Academy of Natural Sciences. So, the pair reunited a few years later when Cope invited Marsh to the Marl Pits of New Jersey.

Em: Oh.

Steven: Have you ever been to the Marl Pits?

Em: No. Is that near Marlboro, New Jersey?

Steven: Maybe. I don’t– Yeah, it’s somewhere in New Jersey.

Em: Okay.

Steven: New Jersey is like, uh, trashy Lord of the Rings.

Em: Agreed.

Steven: Like that’s how I think of–

Em: I–

Steven: The way people talk about New Jersey, it’s like a Bruce Springsteen song or like, uh, you know, a Chris Gethard standup bit. Like–

Em: I– The only really frame of– I mean, I just came back from New Jersey after having never been there s– I was born in Jersey, but–

Steven: Oh, okay. Yes.

Em: –but, but I never spent any time there, and I have family there. My only frame of reference growing up was Jersey Shore. So in that way–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –it does sound a little bit like a back alley smelling like a cigarette, which I, I know is not true as someone who just like experienced some wonderful parts of it. But the stereotype, they– Everyone from New Jersey seems to rag on New Jersey. So what am I supposed to think?

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: You know?

Steven: You lean into it. But then there’s stuff like the Jersey Devil and like–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: There’s like an Americana vibe to it as well that feels very like–

Em: There is–

Steven: –fan-fantastical, you know?

Em: I mean, I really had a good time there. It was really fun.

Steven: I really wanna go.

Em: It was pretty fun.

Steven: Mall, mall– Dream Mall. What’s the–

Em: Oh, American Dream.

Steven: Yeah, American Dream.

Em: I have been there.

Steven: [sighs]

Em: That was also incredibly fun. That was a good time.

Steven: There’s a, there’s a snow hill. There’s a ski slope in there.

Em: Yes, I do know about that. We were gonna go, but it closed. It was closed that day.

Steven: Aw. Anyway. Um, so yeah, the pair reunited at the Marl Pits of New Jersey where it was like, “Dearest, dearest, um, Marsh–“

Em: “Darling Momsie and Popsicle”? [laughs]

Steven: “Dar-Darling Marsh, would you like to join me in the Marl Pits of New Jersey? My mentor, Joseph Leidy, has discovered the Hadrosaurus.” And it’s like, “Go– Bro, come look at my Pits,” you know?

Em: [laughs]

Steven: “Look at my, look at my dig site.”

Em: I love that.

Steven: So, you know, you might have images of Sam Neill as Dr. Alan Grant in Jurassic Park – although you haven’t seen Jurassic Park, but–

Em: Others might. [chuckles]

Steven: So, you know, you’re thinking of a, of a rugged Indiana Jones-style paleontologist digging up bones. But back in the day, these paleontologists, they paid people to dig up the bones.

Em: Get out.

Steven: Yeah. They just would hire quarrymen and miners and stuff and be like, “All right, can you just dig up chunks of rock that we kind of know have bones there and then–“

Em: Yeah.

Steven: “–send them back to the lab,” where then they would actually like do all the intricate stuff and prepare them–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: –and then–

Em: Gotcha.

Steven: –write the papers and everything like that.

Em: Gotcha.

Steven: So, um, yeah, Cope nor Marsh never really got their hands literally dirty.

Em: Okay.

Steven: Um, and so this is where the first– Okay.

Em: Drama happens?

Steven: Marsh, soon after his visit, um, would return to the Pits and pay Cope’s men to send whatever they found to him instead of to Cope.

Em: [gasps] Oh, that’s evil.

Steven: The f– the first act of betrayal.

Em: Truly. Like what hap– Like why?

Steven: I almost think it’s– In my head, like from what I’ve read, and again, I’ll, I’ll list my sources after this, but like it’s almost this thing of like “may the best man win”? Like Marsh, I think, maybe being more antisocial was just sort of like, “Well, Cope, Cope’s already got enough bones,” you know? Like it’s, it’s– There’s no gentleman’s agree– You know, there was no gentleman’s agreement, so–

Em: Sure, but still isn’t this like your buddy who like– He named a shell after you.

Steven: I know.

Em: Come on.

Steven: Um, but it was this next hoopla that would turn friends and lovers – that’s not– they weren’t lovers – to enemies. [laughs]

Em: Okay. [chuckles]

Steven: While Marsh was the more methodical and studious of the pair, Cope was known for his storytelling and push for the spotlight. Again, he’s like charming, you know, fun. Uh, Cope published new papers monthly with little science compared to Marsh’s more dry and scientific publications.

Em: Okay.

Steven: So like I didn’t write any specifics down, but the, the sense from what I’ve read of Cope’s is that he’d be like, you know, “this ancient bed where this dinosaur stuck the–“ You know, it was like very flowery, whereas like Marsh is like, [in an overdramatic nerdy voice] “Well, and the ‘tibula’ it connects to the femur,” you know, like–

Em: Yeah. Yeah.

Steven: I’m being very general here.

Em: But very stuffy. It seems a little more–

Steven: Yeah, just more academic.

Em: –serious.

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Steven: And, um, the– So I like that my important moments are stuck in between two pages. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Steven: So– Hold please. So the apocryphal story, as depicted in an episode of Drunk History–

Em: [gasps] Love.

Steven: –that in 1868, Cope was, Cope was presenting his new marine reptile discovery, Elasmosaurus. So Elasmosaurus. Think of like a Plesiosaur or like Loch Ness Monster.

Em: Okay.

Steven: It kind of– looks kind of like that. So he’s presenting the skeleton of the Elasmosaurus when Marsh points at it and goes, “I think the head is on the tail,” and like pulls the head and like is like, “[scoffs] You idiot.”

Em: Yeah, of course.

Steven: “You stupid idiot.” And then Cope is like [mock sobs] and like runs out of the hall, you know–

Em: Sure.

Steven: –humiliated.

Em: Sure. Totally ashamed. Yeah.

Steven: Yes. So that story is basically exaggerated because as these two became rivals, Marsh essentially– ’Cause actually it was Cope’s mentor, Joseph Leidy, who pointed this out, just sort of like, [in a mumbled tone] “Hey, by the way, you know, the head’s over there.”

Em: Mm.

Steven: You know, but then Marsh heard this and was like, “I’m gonna just constantly re– You know that time when you put the tai– when you put the head on the ass end?”

Em: Yeah, he’s like rubbing it in. Yeah. [chuckles]

Steven: Yeah, yeah. So– And that basically severed their friendship for good.

Em: Okay.

Steven: Until the end of their days.

Em: Okay.

Steven: So have you ever had a rivalry with somebody?

Em: I’m like trying to think. I think the– Like the worst rivalry I– No, I don’t think I have. I think in high school, I was– I had a, a bully.

Steven: Sure. But I th–

Em: But I wasn’t a bully back.

Steven: Yeah. I feel like this i–

Em: I mean, I kind of was because I– once I got a, a microphone in my hand, I, I said to–

Steven: [laughs]

Em: I mentioned that I had a bully and maybe said her name at one point. Whoopsie.

Steven: Whoops.

Em: So sorry.

Steven: Whoops. Look–

Em: I would– Look, it was a long time ago, and I– Hopefully, no one has doxxed her. I– Look, I do feel guilty about it actually. So, yeah, I’ve had a rivalry. We, we have one now because I–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: –I said something.

Steven: No, I mean.

Em: Sorry.

Steven: I know. I– Yeah, I’ve never really had a true like “friend to now we are active enemies,” you know?

Em: Right.

Steven: Like there are like fake beef that I start with people. Like I was starting beef with Jessie, Jessie Buckley who won the Oscar for Best Actress last year ’cause she–

Em: Love that you just start beef with someone like that. Okay.

Steven: –’cause she made her, uh, now husband get rid of his cats. So–

Em: Oh?

Steven: –you know.

Em: That– You know what? That’s a good–

Steven: [laughs]

Em: That’s a real rivalry. [chuckles] That’s, that’s a good–

Steven: ,you know, or there was a film school– the– this very famous director, Mike Lee, who made one of my favorite movies, but when he was– When I went to London Film School, he was a total ass to all the students, and so I like was very saucy back to him, so.

Em: Mm.

Steven: He probably doesn’t remember me, but, you know, it was like, “Oh, one of my favorite directors is a total asshole,” but, you know–

Em: I, I’ve had that.

Steven: –and, and I stood up for a friend, you know, in the class.

Em: That’s great.

Steven: Like, but when you’re beefing with the director of the film school the first week of class, you’re like, “Maybe I’m not gonna be here for very long.”

Em: Yeah. No, I, I think, um– I wish I had a– like a, a juicier one. I mean, I really– I do actually feel pretty guilty as, uh, an adult with a fully developed, um, brain–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –that– I ha– I had a high school bully, and I, I think when in the early years of the podcast, I called her out by name. Um, and now I feel bad ’cause I’m like, “Oh, I hope I didn’t like ruin your life.” But then also like it was 12 years of hell–

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –and like then I grew up and had a microphone in my face, and I, I got a little cocky with it.

Steven: Look, your s–

Em: I– So that’s– It’s really not a rivalry.

Steven: Wh–

Em: It’s just something I, I lose sleep about. That’s all.

Steven: I mean, when people come into your life, they’re part of your story, so it’s your right to tell that part of it, too, you know.

Em: And I hope–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –everyone here b– agrees on that. Um, no, I, I, I think the biggest rivalry I have is like my, my– these days is like my MAGA family–

Steven: Sure.

Em: –like– which I don’t have a relationship with them, but then there’s always that awkward conversation during holidays like, “Why won’t you talk to us?” And I’m like, “Oh, ’cause you’re terrible.”

Steven: Yeah.

Em: But– So I don’t really have like, like a, a Hamilton.

Steven: No, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, again, how many people really do have this? This is such a like– Well, okay, I’ll get more into it. But, um, you know, so you know, we’re back to picturing Jurassic Park, which– Just, just picture desert, Laura Dern looking amazing, you know, in some cut-offs.

Em: I have seen enough of it–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –to know that she looks incredible.

Steven: The q– our queen. So picture the opening of Jurassic Park again with Dr. Ellie Sattler and Dr. Alan Grant out west in America because that was a great place to dig up dinosaur bones ’cause–

Em: Sure.

Steven: I– You know, as much as I love dinosaurs and stuff, I’ve never actually like dug up a fossil.

Em: Nope.

Steven: Have you ever like found–

Em: I’ve done like the fake like–

Steven: Yeah. [laughs] The toy–

Em: –the, the gem– find the gem in the dirt kind of stuff, but.

Steven: Yeah. Um–

Em: I found, um, uh, like arrowheads in the dirt.

Steven: Alright, that’s something. Yeah, that’s something.

Em: I found, uh, a like a railroad spike.

Steven: That’s cool.

Em: Yeah. A lot–

Steven: Do you have a metal detector?

Em: I don’t. Christine does.

Steven: Oh, cool.

Em: But, um– And I– She did something recently where she did like the, the, the really intense magnet and then you go fishing.

Steven: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Em: That sounded really fun.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I would love to try that.

Steven: Yeah. And then there’s even mudlarking in the Thames in–

Em: What’s that?

Steven: So like the Thames in–

[emergency vehicle siren sounds in distance]

Steven: They’re coming to get us.

Em: [laughs]

Steven: Oh, no, it’s a fire truck. It’s a fire truck. Um, no, in the Thames, it obviously has like a thousand years of history and just people dumping stuff.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: So when the tides go low, people can go and like dig around–

Em: Oh, fun.

Steven: –and you’ve– like people have found like Roman artifacts, stuff from the Victorian era, like bottles and things and–

Em: Oh, wow. I’ve always wanted to find a bottle at the bottom of an ocean.

Steven: With a message? “Help me.”

Em: Yes, yes.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: With a message. Like if it were an empty bottle, I’ll be like, “Well, this was a waste of my time.”

Steven: Yeah, yeah. You wanna be like, “Dearest,” you know? [chuckles]

Em: Yeah. I, I want– I wanna find a bottle with a message. I, I mean, even if it was like in the walls of a house.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Like I– One of my friends, she– Oh, that’s the closest thing to a rivalry I’ve got. She ended up being MAGA, and now we don’t speak. But in her house, uh, she had a message in a bottle ’cause I guess they had some sort of party or something happened where a hole ended up in the wall.

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: And they found– It happened to be in the exact right spot where there was a bottle. And I guess the house used to be like a frat house, and they ended up finding like a picture of all the frat brothers and stuff–

Steven: Whoa.

Em: –and like a note. Which makes you wonder like if you just happenstance broke that section of the wall, are there other bottles in other places?

Steven: I know. Like how much– Like what’s hidden behind–

Em: And your house is like 100 years old, right?

Steven: It’s almost, yeah.

Em: Yeah. I ha– I just have hope that there’s something in the walls for you.

Steven: Yeah. Just start hammering away. [chuckles]

Em: Just– [chuckles] You’ll figure it out.

Steven: Yeah. Now, now I’m just thinking of, [singing “What Is This Feeling?” from Wicked] ♪ What is this feeling, so sudden and– ♪♪

Em: [chuckles]

Steven: You know, like I’m just like now imagining these two paleontologists like writing.

Em: I didn’t mean to compare it–

Steven: [singing “What Is This Feeling?” from Wicked] ♪ What is this feeling– ♪♪

Em: –so much to Wicked, but it’s so far very–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I mean, come on.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: It’s like they’re currently in their Emerald City moment.

Steven: Yes.

Em: Although– Or they’ve stepped away now.

Steven: They, they stepped away, and now it’s like [as Glinda from Wicked] “Elphaba, please.” You know, like–

Em: [laughs] A little too good.

Steven: Um, I did dress up as, uh, as Glinda for–

Em: Glinda in drag, right?

Steven: Yes. For Halloween. And then it was mostly actually because Amanda Goodness from Drinking the Koolaid and I–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: –we love Wicked, which is how we met–

Em: That's how we met.

Steven: –because we watched Wicked together.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: But, uh, Amanda and I did a Wicked episode together on See Jurassic Right, so.

Em: [sighs]

Steven: She was Elphaba. I was, I was Glinda.

Em: I remember the, the thumbnail of that, and one of you just had green everywhere.

Steven: Yes. Elphaba– [chuckles]

Em: [laughs]

Steven: Amanda was covered in green.

Em: Yeah.

Steven: Um, and I look great in a crown. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Steven: –so back to the story. So yes– So you know, the, the conditions for creating a fossil are like really hard. It’s like really rare for things to fossilize ’cause it’s like–

Em: Okay.

Steven: –you know, you think about like, you know, when people find like, I don’t know, like a rat skull or, or like deer, you know, carcasses– ’Cause it’s like predators will come and pick it away and then bugs–

Em: Sure.

Steven: –and the sun can like destroy bones and everything. But like the best way for things to become a fossil is usually they fall into water, and then they’re covered by sediment–

Em: Ohh.

Steven: –and then millions of years happen and then those, you know– ’Cause fossils aren’t actually bones. They’re minerals that have replaced– It’s almost like a mold, you know? So–

Em: Fossils aren’t bones?

Steven: Like they’re– No, they’re not bones anymore. They’re essentially like– The minerals have replaced every like structurally where the bone was.

Em: So it’s like a cast of a bone.

Steven: Essentially. Yeah, yeah. And I’m not a paleontologist, so if I’m not explain– I’m like–

Em: [points at themself] 33.

Steven: In my head, I’m like when you’re at a museum and it’s like, “First step to become a fossil, die,” you know.

Em: [laughs]

Steven: And then–

Em: I had no F-ing clue. I just thought, “Oh my god, you found the exact skeleton.”

Steven: I mean, it is like–

Em: It’s similar enough.

Steven: It’s like essentially if you were replaced by rock and you know–

Em: Fucking crazy.

Steven: Yeah. So like over– I think– I can’t remember what the over/under is, but like it is like, I think, over ten million years old you become– like that’s kind of like the threshold for like becoming a fossil.

Em: So embarrassing if you’re in the nine millions–

Steven: Yeah, yeah. Oof.

Em: –and you’re like, “Oh, well, get– You’ll– Just wait. You’ll be fine.”

Steven: “You’ll get there.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, obviously, not obviously, but the deserts– Deserts are a great place for fossils. And like you mentioned earlier in your story, a lot of this part of, you know, Wyoming and the Dakotas and, uh, parts of California, Nevada and stuff was all under water–

Em: Mm.

Steven: –during the Cretaceous period. It was called the Great Interior Western Seaway.

Em: You’re so smart.

Steven: I might have like flipped some of those things, but this is basically the area where the Bone Wars happened.

Em: [whispering dramatically] The Bone Wars.

Steven: So, um, yeah, places like Wyoming, the Dakotas, Colorado were the battlefield of the Bone Wars as both Ma-Marsh and Cope sent out teams into Indigenous people’s territories on a race to dig up and try and describe more dinosaurs than the other. So again–

Em: So it really was– They were just racing to figure out– to just get higher stats or a, a bigger name in the community–

Steven: Yes, exactly.

Em: –before the other person. Okay.

Steven: And so like, like I was saying before, Cope was much more of like he finds a bone and he’s like, “Well, this thing is a blah-blah-blah-saurus,” and, you know, “It, it, it stalked its prey.” And, you know, uh, like, “And this gentle planteater,” you know, “sat by the river and munched on plants.” like it was more just about that storytelling aspect.

Em: Yeah.

Steven: Whereas Marsh is like slowly piecing bones together like, “Mm.”

Em: Well, it sounds like Cope’s gonna win the race then if you’re taking your sweet time and–

Steven: Well.

Em: –to study everything.

Steven: There, there technically is a winner, but it’s–

Em: Oh?

Steven: –it’s like Alien vs. Predator where like either way we lose sort of thing.

Em: Sure. It’s like, “Well, we could have ten sequels of this movie. It’ll just keep– There will always– The killers will always be alive at the end.”

Steven: Yes.

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Steven: So, and I say this as no disrespect to other podcasters who have covered this story, but the idea that this pissing contest–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: –this competition being overall a great thing leading to 142 new species named and big press for the then burgeoning field of paleontology, I do think this idea is a little bit flawed.

Em: Oh, okay.

Steven: Over, over the 20-ish year period of the Bone Wars, not only would many of these discoveries turn out to be false–

Em: Ooh.

Steven: –they would try and claim each other’s discoveries. “No, I discovered it.” “No, I discovered it.” “No, it’s a Allosaurus.” “No–“ You know, famously, “It’s an Apatosaurus.” “No, it’s a Brontosaurus.” Like–

Em: Ohh.

Steven: –stuff like that.

Em: Okay.

Steven: Um, they would also try– Yeah, they would try and claim each other’s discoveries as their own, and they would take other rand– Like other paleontologists are like, “I would like to be excluded from this narrative.”

Em: [laughs]

Steven: And it’s like, “I’m taking your dinosaurs too,” you know.

Em: It sounds like– I mean, it’s, it’s very rare you get like the insight of like geeks fighting.

Steven: Yes.

Em: Like it–

Steven: Oh, totally. Totally.

Em: It’s just– This is just like what like lab nerds are all about. I– Like I think it’s so, so– I love this.

Steven: But it feels very antithetical to science though. And this is–

Em: Yes.

Steven: –this is the part where it’s gonna feel very anti-antithetical to science, which is often they would sabe– often they would sabotage each other’s digs and destroy actual fossils–

Em: Oh…

Steven: –to be like, uh, “You guys can’t carry out all these bones? We’ll destroy the ones that you left behind ’cause I don’t want Cope to get them,” or “I don’t want Marsh to get them.”

Em: Messy. Yeah. And it is antithetical to science because I, I’m thinking at least that like “Well, now we can’t– We lost evidence. You just destroyed evidence for your own–“

Steven: Personal gain.

Em: “–personal gain,” yeah.

Steven: And there’s also been like– Again, it’s one of those like apocryphal sort of tales that I think both of these men lead into–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: –of like, “He used dynamite to blow up my bones,” you know, like that kind of thing.

Em: [chuckles] It’s not only destroying it, but like who can destroy it better? [chuckles]

Steven: And also like, again, at this time, you know, it’s post-Civil War. It’s that period of American history, you know, where we’re committing atrocities against Indigenous groups and stuff. So it’s like all of that is going on in the background while these two men are sending out teams to go and dig up dinosaur bones.

Em: Sure.

Steven: Like just really like painting a picture of that time like–

Em: Right.

Steven: You know what I mean? It’s like, uh–

Em: A lot of selfish white men.

Steven: Yes. Buffalo– or, um– I just spoiled it, but Cope actually went out on a trip with Buffalo Bill.

Em: Shut up. No way.

Steven: Like you know what I mean? He’s just like, [making the “hang loose” hand gesture, in a Southern accent] “Woo-hoo! Like we’re gonna dig up some bones,” you know. And it’s just like–

Em: [laughs]

Steven: –“Who’s this like rich kid,” you know?

Em: You know what’s crazy? Of a– Like, like Buffalo Bill, I guess, has his own, uh, full rap sheet, but like I feel like that should be added to the list of things that people know best about him.

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: It’s like, “Oh, he’s done all these things. Also he like helped dig up dinosaur bones.”

Steven: Yeah.

Em: That’s crazy.

Steven: Or just as like a publicity stunt–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: –went out with them. Um–

Em: And I don’t blame him. For the PR? That would be a cool thing to do.

Steven: Yeah. No, no. Of course, it was– Yeah. I mean, um– So yeah, they would often destroy actual fossils. They basically ruined paleontology’s reputation to the rest of the world for a while.

Em: Mm.

Steven: And having interviewed paleontologists working today, they’re basically– Like paleontologists now are still undoing the damage that these, that these guys did.

Em: Still?

Steven: Because yeah, it’s like either they would destroy things, the information that people wanted to know, or because they were just like mislabeling things and renaming things. So it’s like–

Em: Right.

Steven: –that’s the interesting thing. Like I learned interviewing paleontologists and interviewing museum people is that like, you know, trying to get funding for anything th– A lot of times most museum stuff is sitting, you know, in the back–

Em: I mean–

Steven: –just waiting for somebody to study it.

Em: –Clark Park only has 1% on display.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: So.

Steven: And so a lot of it is because of all this was done so messy, you know, these divas–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: –and it was just like even now we’re still trying to like– you know, scientists are constantly going back and being like, “Okay, like let’s look at their work. Was it actually up to snuff? Mm, we kind of have to redo it”–

Em: Right.

Steven: –or you know– which is why like you know– ’Cause I don’t know if you know about like how Brontosaurus and Apatosaurus are the same dinosaur. Like Brontosaurus was the, um– like is the more popular one.

Em: Sure.

Steven: Like, you know, Brontosaurus.

Em: I do. It, uh– Little Foot.

Steven: Yes, Little Foot essentially. But Brontosaurus basically was named second, and the original dinosaur is Apatosaurus, which is–

Em: Ohh.

Steven: At some point in the ‘60s or the ‘70s, um, they’re like, “Wait, Brontosaurus is actually the same as Apatosaurus.”

Em: Are they actually?

Steven: So– Well, from my understanding, and this is one of those like I just remember this as a kid, you know, and– but essentially Brontosaurus was an Apatosaurus with a different long neck dinosaur’s head.

Em: Crazy.

Steven: And– But now, you know, kind of like Pluto situation, they found another dinosaur that’s like Little Foot to give to Bron– to give the name Brontosaurus to. So Brontosaurus is a real dinosaur again–

Em: Okay.

Steven: –it’s just not the same one from when we gr–

Em: It’s like Brontosaurus 2.0.

Steven: Yes, exactly.

Em: Okay.

Steven: Yeah, yeah. So.

Em: Fascinating.

Steven: But it’s stuff like that where it’s like paleontologists are constantly like fixing stuff that these two men–

Em: Sure.

Steven: –messed up. And so like, um– Yeah. I mean, we, we can talk more at the end about it, but it’s like– I don’t know. Sometimes I’m just like, is competition always healthy?

Em: Not this time around. No. That– I mean, it really– I mean, the fact that you’re covering– you’re the true crime half of thi– I mean, this is a crime against science–

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –for sure.

Steven: Yes, it is a crime against science. Um, so by the 1880s, Marsh was made head of the US Geological Survey and sought to consolidate power and assert his dominance over Cope, who had been publishing way more papers.

Em: Okay.

Steven: So, uh– And Cope was running out of family money. He invested in a silver mine that went bankrupt. And here is– [looks down at a cat at his feet off-camera] Who’s this?

Em: It’s one of them.

Steven: It’s Wendy. Um, so yeah, Cope is running out of daddy’s money. He’s investing in things like silver mines and stuff. You know, this is, you know, after– obviously, the gold rush had been a while ago, but you know, all this kind of [in a Southern accent] prospectin’–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: –out We– Have you ever been panning for gold?

Em: Only like a-as an attraction, not like–

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –not like real–

Steven: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: –but it’s very fun.

Steven: Um, so yeah, Cope was running out of money. Marsh was made head of the US Geological Survey. Um, and so Marsh, in his position of power, created a law that all fossils discovered with the assistance of the government would now be government property.

Em: Oh.

Steven: So basically he was creating a law so that he could try and steal Cope’s fossils back from him.

Em: Hm.

Steven: Or not back from him, but from him.

Em: It’s giving Trump.

Steven: Yes.

Em: Okay.

Steven: [imitating Donald Trump] “I make a law that helps me.” I don’t know what– [trails off]

Em: Yeah. I– It feels that way.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: It’s like, “Well, I’m just trying to like– trying to scoop it all up.”

Steven: Game the system. Yeah.

Em: Yes, yes.

Steven: Yes, but Cope was a good record keeper, and he avoided Marsh’s repo men ’cause it was daddy’s money that paid for these digs, not the government.

Em: Right.

Steven: So–

Em: Wow.

Steven: But this law would come back to bite Marsh in the end eventually.

Em: Okay.

Steven: So Cope is now on the offensive. He reaches out to the New York Herald and like any great diva, you know, takes to social media, aka the newspapers, with a list of grievances, mistakes, and complaints from former employees and colleagues of Marsh in a full exposé, forcing him to resign as head of the US Geological Survey.

Em: Holy shit. Like how, how many bad things had he really done? It sounds like he was the smart, nerdy one who would have actually been paying more attention to the science of it all.

Steven: Exactly. But I think he got cocky.

Em: Oh, okay.

Steven: I think he, he was like, “I’m, I’m educated. I go to Yale. I’m the real scientist–”

Em: Sure.

Steven: “–and Cope is just the showman.”

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: So that’s why I think this story is very interesting ’cause you’re like, oh, yeah, wouldn’t like in a– some ways, aren’t you rooting for Marsh ’cause he’s like the real scientist? But like Cope was actually kind of a nice guy, and I think Marsh maybe like almost resented the fact that like he was–

Em: Like was he jealous of his popularity?

Steven: I– Maybe.

Em: Or like that– his, his charisma?

Steven: I think so. I think there’s some element of that.

Em: ’Cause it sounds like– I mean, I could see him either being jealous or at least thinking like, “It’s not fair. Like I’m doing this by the fucking book–“

Steven: Yes.

Em: “–and like you and your little like fun attitude all of a sudden– Like you get just as much praise as I do.”

Steven: Yeah. And all the papers and stuff–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: –that he was publishing.

Em: Like the c– the, um, the insecurity of comparison.

Steven: Yes.

Em: Co-comparison is the thief of joy.

Steven: It is. And of fossils.

Em: And of fossils. [laughs] That was a great little punchy end– way to end that though.

Steven: [laughs]

Em: That was good.

Steven: Um, so, yeah. So, uh, Marsh had to resign as head of the US Geological Survey, and then also, because of this, our government cut the agency’s budget in half. So it was like not only did Marsh get in trouble, but he also like ruined science for a while for people in the US because he–

Em: Crazy.

Steven: –he got mad with power. And most of his fossils– Because Marsh’s fossils were dug up because of government grants–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Steven: –most of Marsh’s fossils were repossessed.

Em: Ohh.

Steven: So Marsh’s own law–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: As Taylor Swift once said, “Karma is a cat purring in my lap ’cause it loves me.” Anyway.

Em: And she actually stole that from Cope, so, um.

Steven: [chuckles] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: [laughs]

Steven: Just imagine Cope just– ’Cause again, it’s like–

Em: With his quill.

Steven: Yeah, yeah. [chuckles] “Karma is, is– Thou–“

Em: [chuckles] “Karma is my boyfriend."

Steven: “Karma is my boyfriend.”

Em: Yeah.

Steven: But isn’t that wild? Like that just feels like–

Em: That’s insane.

Steven: I think that’s why this story is so popular ’cause there’s these kind of like cinematic moments, you know.

Em: Are there movies about this?

Steven: So there was supposed to be a movie with, um– There was supposed to be a movie with James Gandolfini–

Em: Oh, get out.

Steven: –as Marsh–

Em: Tony Soprano.

Steven: –and Steve Carell as Cope.

Em: Shut the hell up. And by the way, how well cast that is.

Steven: I know. So like Marsh ma– James Gandolfini–

Em: Steve Carell as the charismatic one?

Steven: And then James Gandolfini is the like serious scientist and then Cope like– Imagine like Steve Carell and like massive– like when Michael Scott is being like really ridiculous, you know.

Em: Oh my god. That would have been– So what happened that–

Steven: It was in produ– starting to be in production and that was when Ja-James Gandolfini passed away.

Em: Mm.

Steven: So they were literally about to start making it.

Em: Wow. They really should have just cast another person and–

Steven: I know.

Em: –just kept it going. But I mean, I get it though.

Steven: I mean, I’m sure there’s been like TV movies and stuff based on this, and there’s obviously plenty of documentaries and– But yeah, I– And then, actually, Michael Crichton, who wrote Jurassic Park, he did a fictionalized book–

Em: Mm.

Steven: –called Dragon Teeth, which I’m actually– I haven’t read yet ’cause it was published after he died, but I’m gonna do it ’cause I’m doing a Michael Crichton book club on my podcast this summer.

Em: Get out.

Steven: So I’m actually gonna read the fictionalized version of this story.

Em: I mean–

Steven: So I’m actually really excited to like–

Em: That sounds so cool. I mean, we could compare– we could combine our passions and imagine a book where you get to time travel to the Bone Wars and just watch these like nerds–

Steven: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [chuckles]

Em: –have like their own version of like a Bravo show.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I mean, no wonder this is so interesting to the paleontologists because it has fucked up their jobs and has given them a lot of tasks–

Steven: Yes.

Em: –even today. But also like I– Maybe I’m wrong here. I can’t imagine there being a lot of obvious clear-cut drama like that in the paleontology world. Or is there?

Steven: I mean– [sighs]

Em: That feels– I mean, it feels like a high school fight.

Steven: I mean, pe– Yeah. I mean, people are people, so it’s always gonna be you know– and dudes are always gonna, you know, have ego in that–

Em: A pissing contest.

Steven: A pissing content. Yeah, a dick-measuring contest.

Em: [laughs]

Steven: But it’s just v– It– Because it is like almost like the birth of American paleontology, that’s why it also–

Em: Sure.

Steven: And I think, you know, the out– you know, the American West– Like it’s just– Like it checks a lot of boxes–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: –of like why I think it’s captured people’s imagination.

Em: Had no idea. I mean, I d– I think I’d heard the phrase “Bone Wars”–

Steven: Yeah. [chuckles]

Em: –but as soon as I hear “war,” I kind of check out.

Steven: Sure.

Em: Um, but wow.

Steven: A-And then to your point earlier, it’s like yeah, there were, um, you know– They were like– There was one example that I didn’t bring up, but it was like sometimes they would like rename each other’s dinosaurs like in each other’s papers. Like, “By the way, it’s called like this now. Like whatever.”

Em: “Big Idiotsaurus Rex.” Yeah. [chuckles]

Steven: Yeah, yeah. Like passive aggressive. So it’s like there’s records of this feud–

Em: Wow.

Steven: –ov-over 20 years.

Em: Do you know the names of any of them that got named and then renamed? I know you just did Brontosaurus.

Steven: The Apatosaurus and Brontosaurus one is the most like obvious example.

Em: Okay.

Steven: The other ones are very like– ’Cause again, not only did they discover dinosaurs, but they also, you know, ancient marine reptiles and ancient mammals–

Em: Interesting.

Steven: –and lizards and birds and shells and other things.

Em: Well, speaking of Brontosaurus and– Apatosaurus?

Steven: Apatosaurus, yeah.

Em: You’ve been to Dinosaur Land or Dinosaur World or whatever it is that’s in, um, Palm Springs?

Steven: Uh, oh, the Cabazon?

Em: Yes, yes.

Steven: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Em: So their gift shop is inside of a dinosaur that I thought was a Brontosaurus, but apparently, there’s a plaque on it that says, “this is actually an Apatosaurus.” But I mean, how– Is that– Would that be true based on the head shape then? Is that–

Steven: ’Cause, yeah, that was– ’Cause basically when people think of Brontosaurus, they’re thinking of Apatosaurus.

Em: Okay.

Steven: My understanding of it just over the years.

Em: So is Little Foot an Apatosaurus?

Steven: I mean, you would– It’s one of those things where you’re like, eh, like it basically is what people thought a Brontosaurus was–

Em: Okay.

Steven: –you know?

Em: Sure.

Steven: So, it’s kind of like–

Em: Well, now I’m curious what a real Brontosaurus looks like.

Steven: Yeah. I mean, it’s–

Em: I’m gonna have to look that up.

Steven: Yeah. The, the, the new Brontosaurus doesn’t have quite the like– You know what I mean? It–

Em: Cool factor.

Steven: No, yeah, yeah. Apatosaurus is like OG Little Foot kind of thing, but–

Em: Sure.

Steven: Um, but yeah. Um, so it’s my last little bit.

Em: Yeah.

Steven: Um, by 1897, Cope was dying, living in an apartment surrounded by the only thing he had left, his fossils. His wife and child had left him by then. And what is considered the final fight between the two, Cope donated his brain to science and challenged Marsh to a brain-measuring contest to see who is indeed the smarter and more brilliant of the two.

Em: That is the pettiest shit I’ve ever heard in my– Donating your brain and then challenging someone else to also donate their brain is so cunty.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: I don’t, I don’t know. It’s messy.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: It’s messy.

Steven: Marsh never accepted the challenge. Marsh died two years later, also alone. So while Cope discovered 56 new dinosaurs, Marsh won, discovering 80 dinosaurs, including such icons as Stegosaurus, Triceratops, Allosaurus, Apatosaurus, and more. And that’s the Bone Wars.

Em: That is incredible. So, wait, are there any famous ones that Cope discovered? Because you kind of just listed everyone I know. The T. Rex?

Steven: So, [sighs] some people say that Cope like made the first initial discoveries of T. Rex, but it wasn’t really until like–

Em: Okay.

Steven: –1905 or 1915, some, so– Like there was some fragments that Cope discovered that people are like, “Yeah, that’s a T. Rex.” But like he didn’t describe T. Rex. Like Cope ended up doing like Elasmosaurus, which is a marine reptile and like other non-dinosaur-related– And, again, uh, like I think Dimetrodon which is like an early synapsid, which is kind of like a pre-mammal thing. I don’t know. It’s hard to describe. But yeah, he didn’t discover any of the big ones. Like Marsh really won if, if we’re going by like the popular dinosaurs.

Em: [sighs] And that’s why science is important.

Steven: Yes.

Em: I, I– Sorry, I’m gonna think about that brain one for the longest time.

Steven: Isn’t that wild?

Em: That’s so– Like in death still saying, “I’m gonna win.”

Steven: And he’s a showman though too, you know. Cope was just like, “This would be–“ Like it doesn’t really matter ’cause like–

Em: No, but it was for the headline.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: And talk about a headline. That’s a great one.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Wow. I, I know– You just said a lot of interesting things, but I’m absolutely–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: And if I ever talk about the Bone Wars, that is the bullet that will be at the end of every single time I tell the story.

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Man.

Steven: Isn’t that cool?

Em: Wow. Thanks, Steven.

Steven: Of course. And yeah, that is a real– Again, I think because I’ve heard this story a lot and I know this story, it’s like, “What– What’s my angle to it,” you know?

Em: Yeah.

Steven: And that’s the thing I just– And I’m curious about what you think where it’s just like this idea of some people being like, “Oh, competition like helped,” but I’m like, “I don’t– I mean, maybe, but I feel like there’s–“

Em: Mm, it’s one of those things where it’s kind of a best of both worlds. Like it’s a–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: Like I can see the– Like, yes, they were racing– I don’t know. I think I’m leaning more towards it was not a good thing.

Steven: No. And I think you just hear– when you hear from actual paleontologists, I don’t think any of them are like, “Oh, I’m glad that like these two men kind of were messy bitches,” and like–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: You know what I mean? Like I just feel like–

Em: Like they pumped out a shitload of dinosaurs. Like I mean, that’s– that is cool that they were like– ho– Who knows how long it would have taken–

Steven: Sure.

Em: –for all those to be discovered if they weren’t racing to do it. But they could have also teamed up in the end and just like, “You cover this half of the world, I’ll cover this half, and we’ll just find them as fast as we can together.”

Steven: Or they, they could have worked together. I mean, they, they were friends.

Em: Worked together, yeah.

Steven: They like were friends. Like I think that’s what makes it kind of tragic too–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: –you know?

Em: Or they could have at least found like, like different categories, like, “I’ll look up the marine stuff, and if I find any like non-marine, I’ll give that to you. And that’s–“ They could, they could have worked it out any– in a bunch of different ways.

Steven: Yeah. Also, there’s so many dinosaur bones, especially at that time, that, you know, hadn’t been discovered yet. Like they could have just easily not destroyed each other’s– or, you know, not destroyed their own– Like there was just all these little petty human male ego things that like–

Em: Yeah.

Steven: –contributed to, to me thinking like it’s at least worth stepping back and being like, “Was this a ne–“ Just– Yeah. Like it– “Maybe it’s not a net positive.” That’s all I’m saying about it, you know.

Em: And all they had to do–

Steven: It is a fun story, but.

Em: All they had to do was just talk out their feelings.

Steven: Yeah.

Em: They like could have just been– But I–

Steven: And kissed.

Em: And kissed a little bit. Like–

Steven: [with a lisp] And kissed.

Em: [chuckles] I feel like honestly what they should have done– If I were solving it for them, I feel like they should have obviously teamed up. I think they should have said like, “Look, Marsh, you’re more of the science geek. I think we need you in the lab. This guy’s got the charisma that he could go on a whole like campaign–“

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: “–and get everyone super jazzed about dinosaurs and open up all their museums or a– open up these parks so we can go digging”–

Steven: Yeah.

Em: –and he could have really like been the, the voice to get everyone interested. And then that could have brought even more scientists on that would have found even more dinosaurs faster.

Steven: Yeah, yeah.

Em: That’s what should’ve happened.

Steven: And that’s more like a Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak thing ’cause, you know, they worked together to create Apple.

Em: I think they– I think that should have been what happened there.

Steven: Yeah. But, um–

Em: ’Cause also it could have been like “Nerdy Elphaba” and like “PR Galinda”–

Steven: Aw. PR–

Em: –you know what I’m saying?

Steven: PR Galinda. [chuckles]

Em: PR Galinda.

Steven: Um–

Em: Um, yeah.

Steven: Thank you.

Em: Thank you for being here. That was so nice.

Steven: Oh my gosh. Wait, I wanna read my sources.

Em: Oh. Oh, go for it.

Steven: I gotta cre– I gotta credit The Dollop. They did a really great episode on this back in the day. Stuff You Should Know did a really great episode. Um, the book, The Rise and Fall of Dinosaurs by Steve Brusatte, HISTORY This Week, Drunk History.

Em: Fun.

Steven: Tony Hale plays, um, Cope.

Em: Oh, that’s great.

Steven: And then, um– What’s the guy in Law and Order?

Em: [stammering] C– I’m sorry.

Steven: Christopher Meloni.

Em: El– Elliot Stabler?

Steven: Yeah.

Em: So you really– This is crime indeed. You really– Well done.

Steven: Yeah, Christopher Meloni played, um, Marsh.

Em: That’s hysterical.

Steven: Um, my See Jurassic Right collaborator, Andrea Ciofalo, aka Strange Bird Art, um, Natural History Museum of L.A., Natural History Museum– or Field Museum, and then a Nat Geo article by the amazing Riley Black.

Em: Very cool. Well, I’ll read mine too. Damn.

Steven: [laughs]

Em: Uh, mine–

Steven: I had to, I had to come prepared, you know. I was like, I work with so many people who are so good at, you know, citing their sources.

Em: That’s very sweet. I, I’m pretty sure we put our sources in, uh, below on our, on our YouTube.

Steven: Oh, awesome.

Em: So, hopefully it’s there. Um, but just in case, SFGate, uh, Ro-Robo Japan Blogspot–

Steven: [chuckles]

Em: –OC Historical Blogspot, UPI, uh, OC Parks, OC Register, and then a Facebook page about L.A. history.

Steven: I love it.

Em: I love it. Thank you for being here. Please shout out where people can go listen to you.

Steven: Hi. Well, you can listen to me on See Jurassic Right. Yeah, I interview– Again, Em’s been on, talked about back– We talked about Back to the Future, but I’ve also had musicians, scientists. I did a series in the fall last year called “The Back to School Series” where I interviewed paleontologists, science communicators, um, Alie Ward from Ologies who I– I worked on Ologies for many years, um, the Erins from This Podcast Will Kill You. They’re, you know, a disease ecologist. Um, I interviewed a shark scientist, Amani Webber-Schultz, um, some of the hosts of Eons, like– I don’t know. I love talking to scientists ’cause they’re like– It’s one of those things like as a creative person, I’m like, “[sighs] Science and math are really hard,” and then you actually meet scientists, and you’re like, “Oh my god, these people are creative and charming and cool too.” and I’m like, “Wait, that’s not fair. You can’t be good at science and be artistic and charming and creative,” but everyone I interviewed is great and, um– Yeah, I don’t know. That's a fun series to start with. So, yeah.

Em: Very cool.

Steven: Patreon, See Jurassic Right.

Em: And follow Steven Ray Morris.

Steven: StevenRayMorris on all the things.

Em: And usually this is where we just say, “and that’s why we drink,” but I think we should sign it.

Steven: Oh?

Em: I know this is “and–”

[Em holds their left hand up as if holding a cup, moving it out to the left and pinching their fingers together.]

Steven: And–

[Steven makes the same sign as Em.]

Em: That’s–

[Em points forwards with their left index finger. Steven points as well with his right hand.]

Steven: That’s– Um–

Em: Why–

[Em holds their left hand near the side of their temple, palm facing their head and fingers splayed. Their middle finger is angled and almost touching their head. As Em moves their hand away from their head and stops a few inches away, they bend their middle finger down.]

Steven: Wait, ha– What’s “why” again?

[Steven holds his hand up like Em.]

Em: Is it this? Why–

[Em repeats the sign with Steven.]

Steven: Why–

Em: We–

Steven: We–

[Em and Steven move their hand out in front of them, moving from one side of their body to the other, as if gesturing to a group.]

Em: Drink.

Steven: Drink. [chuckles]

[Em and Steven make a C-shape with their hand and tilt their hands up towards their mouths as if drinking.]

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