E488 The Esophagus Woes and a Hatchet Granny

TOPICS: the holly hotel, gerard schaefer aka the killer cop aka the butcher of blind creek

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It’s Episode 488 and no one is appreciating Chattanooga Choo Choo like we are. Today Em covers the haunted Hotel Holly in Michigan and its ghost dog named Leona! Then Christine covers serial killer Gerard Schaefer which has us communally sighing in frustration. And will we ever be able to make MacGALver happen? …and that’s why we drink!

**One quick note! Next week there will be no main episode on Sunday 7/5 but we will return again on 7/12/2026!**

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Transcript

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[intro music]

Christine: Did you ever have a class where you had to– ’Cause I know we both went to very– Oh, hi.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Did you ever go to class in eighth grade where you had to learn about music theory, but really it was just this man who had a piano and he would play like, like, [singing] ♪ I’m, I’m seeing my sweetheart at the train tracks ♪♪ ? You know, that kind of music.

Em: I had that guy– I had that exact man in my class.

Christine: Really? ’Cause mine–

Em: No.

Christine: –was named Bru– Oh.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I thought, I thought we were really on the same page.

Em: [laughs] I, I didn’t have the [singing] ♪ Hello, my honey, hello, my darling ♪♪ or whatever.

Christine: That was the one. So I actually f– I actually li– I actually faked a sinus infection to quit band.

Em: Okay.

Christine: And then I ended up in music appreciation, it was called.

Em: Mm. That’s–

Christine: And we had to sing songs like, um, like, um, [singing] ♪ Hey, good lookin’. What you got cookin’? ♪♪

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: You know?

Em: I feel like there was somebody else I knew who took a music appreciation class but like in college, and it was clearly like a, a one credit just filler class. Um, and I think it was similar, where it’s like you just kind of got together and sang songs. Um–

Christine: Yeah, it was–

Em: Did, did you like it?

Christine: No, I hated it–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –and I got like a D.

Em: How do you get a D–

Christine: I don’t–

Em: –in appreciating something?

Christine: I– Thank you for asking because I didn’t appreciate that Shayna would bring in John Mayer as our like weekly CD.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: And I was like, “I don’t like John Mayer.” And then we had to give like a speech as part of this class to debate something. And Brian s-so-and-so, not gonna give away his whole name, did a speech about stem cell research, and I was like, “What the fuck does an eighth grader know about stem cell research?” And so then I com– put a complaint in and, um–

Em: [chuckles] Wow.

Christine: –to nobody in particular. I guess Bruce.

Em: I was gonna say, wow. A Kar– the Karen of the eighth grade really, uh, showed up a–

Christine: Yeah. Well, I was not the Kare– Well, I was the Kar– I– You know what? Fine.

Em: I see where you were c–

Christine: But it’s only ’cause I care.

Em: You had good reasoning. I’ll say like– God knows your heart. You know?

Christine: I mean, listen, I was in Catholic school, and they were teaching me that stem cells were like murder. And I’m like, you know– I’m, I’m going, “These people are dumber than rocks. How am I supposed to be listening to what they know about s– Like what the fuck does Ryan [censoring beep] know about fucking stem cells? Give me a break.”

Em: I think you’re just ahead of your time because, as an adult, I’m with you, but as a kid, I would have been like, “Why on earth do we care enough?” But I, but I– You were just ahead of your time.

Christine: I– But I– Because, because then I had to give a speech, and I was like, “Sorry, I don’t think that God is like gonna put scientists in hell or whatever the fuck you guys are saying.”

Em: That would have been a–

Christine: And I get a D.

Em: That would have been a– That’s fucking crazy. Also with–

Christine: My brother would tell you that that is not what happened, but that is, in my opinion, exa–

Em: I didn’t hear his side, so.

Christine: Thank you. And we won’t be hearing his side–

Em: I didn’t ask to.

Christine: –today or ever. Thank you.

Em: I, I won’t be texting him asking for it, so.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um, I, uh– What would have been the real power move is if you decided to go up there with your speech and then rip it in half and go–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –“I’d actually rather take this time and debunk all the shit that you just said.” That’d been crazy.

Christine: You know what? If I had any sort of self-esteem, I’d ma–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: If only.

Christine: I maybe–

Em: We could dream.

Christine: And do you think I actually ever put in a complaint? No.

Em: Oh. [laughs]

Christine: What I did was I went home–

Em: There’s only– You put a complaint into your own diary. Is that what you’re fucking saying to me?

Christine: Here’s, here’s what I did. I made a huge mi–

Em: I thought you– I fully believed what was happening here. Okay.

Christine: Em, I think it’s– I fear it might be worse than what you imagine because what happened in reality is I went home and I would tell my mother these things. And my mother, beautiful Leo spirit with some really unchecked, um, uh, dysregulation (no offense, Mom), but–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –we’re in qigong together, so I can say that now confidently. Um, and so I would come home, and I would tell her, you know, “Oh, Bri–“ [censoring beep]–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –I’m making up a s– a name, “told me–“ And by the way, my mom was pregnant and was having a baby and was saving the stem cells. So this is the per– this is a particular specific instance–

Em: You found the exact who could be most triggered by this conversation person.

Christine: Literally. And I said–

Em: And you said, “Mommy, guess what happened?”

Christine: –“Mommy, they’re so mean at school.” And oh, did she come in hot. And like, was it about me? No. Because it– Of course, my mother was very triggered and dysregulated and very pregnant. And she came in, and basically, um, I got in some extreme trouble f– not only for that, for almost everything I brought home to my mother. And then she would like turn around with a megaphone and scream it at the whole school. Like, you know, “Your, your students are calling my daughter a pilgrim ’cause she wears orthopedic shoes with buckles on them,” and I’m like, “Why did you scream that into the PA system? Like now everyone is going–“

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: You know? Like, “You made it worse, Mother.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So that’s–

Em: Is that the version that Xandy would say is accurate?

Christine: [sighs] Even he would say, “Wow, you’re just blowing everything out of proportion.” And to that I say, “Well, maybe I have some wounds about visibility, okay?”

Em: Stem cells are important to, to fight for. I’m on your side.

Christine: Thank you.

Em: I’m on your side.

Christine: And like again, like gi-give me a fucking break. Anyway–

Em: Well–

Christine: –how are you doing?

Em: Fi– Well– Please–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –we’re gonna go backwards. What, what was your speech about? Your own speech.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: What was your D about?

Christine: Oh, the D was because we had to take a test that was like 80% of our grade, and it was just all about these dumb songs about the– like from like the 1910s.

Em: Do you remember any of the songs from the 1910s?

Christine: Yeah. Uh, well, apparently not as well as I was supposed to. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –but I’m trying to think of– Like I feel like there’s so many. I mean, one of them was like, [singing] ♪ Hey, good lookin’ ♪♪ So it’s whatever time period that was.

Em: Wait. “What you got cookin’? How’s ‘bout cookin’ something with me?”

Christine: [singing] ♪ Whatcha got cookin’? How ‘bout cookin’– ♪

Em: That’s from the 1910s?

Christine: [singing] ♪ –something up with me? ♪♪ I don’t know.

Em: Simply cannot be from the 1910s. If it is, that blows my mind.

Christine: Okay. Well, it’s from, um, [laughs] sorry. 1951. Okay. Well, it–

Em: Okay. [laughs]

Christine: –it was music appreciation, and I didn’t fucking appreciate it.

Em: Apparently not.

Christine: [yelling] Are you happy now?

Em: Apparently not. I, uh– That’s–

Christine: I lowered my Zoloft this week, unrelated.

Em: Okay. It doesn’t totally show. Um, but–

Christine: My therapist got mad at me, and I said, “Don’t worry. I will consult with a medical professional.” And then I did–

Em: Good for you.

Christine: –and now we’re okay. Thank you.

Em: Good for you. I, uh– I’m try–

Christine: Sorry, Hank Williams.

Em: Sorry, Hank.

Christine: RIP, I guess. I assume he’s dead. [chuckles]

Em: I would have given anything to watch you in this music appreciation class ’cause–

Christine: [laughs]

Em: –I feel like–

Christine: And then my mom comes in and goes, “You gave my daughter a D?” And they’re like, “What do y– What proof do you have that we should give her anything else?” And she’s like–

Em: Oh!

Christine: –“I don’t know. Like a Hank Williams? Like I don’t–“

Em: That’s crazy.

Christine: I don’t know. Well, so here’s the thing. Renée got the, the like superlative like, “Oh, Renée gonna be a star.” And then, um, I got the like, “Oh, Christine’s gonna be her backup.” And so then I got a big complex about that, but that was how we were sort of pitched to our parents–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –which was very weird.

Em: Interesting.

Christine: Um, and also this other girl started calling Renée, um, a concubine from France. And so then there was–

Em: That feels like something Renée would call a, a person, not the other way around.

Christine: I know. And Renée was like, “Do you think I’m offended by that? Or what? Like, anyway.”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] I feel like Renée’s like, “I’ve heard worse.” Like– [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah. No, for real. Exactly. I don’t know where I was going with that except I clearly didn’t pay any attention to the Drifting Cowboys, which– Hang on a second.

Em: That sounds like something you would absolutely pay attention to–

Christine: Maybe Bruce–

Em: –while clutching your pearls.

Christine: –was on to something. Maybe I faked that sinus infection and quit trumpet class for a reason.

Em: [chuckles] Did you–

Christine: And I’m only now finding–

Em: Uh-huh?

Christine: –my real purpose.

Em: A new, a new love? Maybe this is– It’s meant to be re-circled–

Christine: Hank Williams.

Em: –recycled.

Christine: Look at that fucking hat. What am I supposed to do? Say no?

Em: I, I don’t know what I would do. [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: I just don’t know.

Christine: I need a– I need help. [laughs]

Em: Okay. Are– Did you ever do a public speaking class?

Christine: I did.

Em: What was your speech?

Christine: I bl– I literally dissociated the entire year.

Em: I–

Christine: What did you do?

Em: We had, uh– It was in college. It was like a–

Christine: I don’t remember.

Em: –gen ed random class. I– And I remember a random girl from my high school was also in that class, and she was mean to me in high school, and then I saw her in college, and I thought, “Oh, maybe things have changed.” No–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –she was still not very nice. Um–

Christine: Oh, wow.

Em: But, uh, they made us do three different speeches. One of them was like a one-minute one, like a three-minute one, and then a five-minute one for you to like practice like length, I guess. Um, one of them I did, um, how to play beer pong. And then– [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: It was college.

Christine: As a non-drinking person, which is amazing ’cause you really have–

Em: Doesn’t mean I don’t– I know the rules better than anyone. [chuckles]

Christine: –a sober perspective. You’re like the referee who’s like, “I’m not playing the game. I’m like observing the game.”

Em: Yeah, I know exactly how this fucking goes.

Christine: Fantastic. Fantastic.

Em: Um, another one was– I worked at Chipotle, so I think I just told everyone exactly how to make the corn. Um–

Christine: I mean, that has to be an A.

Em: I– Maybe. Maybe to people who really like the corn there, but the teacher did not seem impressed that I was giving him–

Christine: That’s what I mean.

Em: –factory secrets.

Christine: But that’s what I mean, Em, is like the teachers are like, “No, that’s not appreciation.” I’m like, “I fucking hate John Mayer. Sorry, that’s my appreciation for today,” but it’s not good enough.

Em: And you know what? Not liking all musicians is appreciation be–

Christine: Thank you!

Em: Can you ima– ’Cause if you’d said, “I like all of them,” you don’t give a fuck then.

Christine: That’s fucking insane.

Em: You have no ounce of critical analysis for yourself. Even if it’s wrong compared to everybody else.

Christine: If everyone is your friend, no one’s your fucking friend.

Em: Damn.

Christine: Not even Hank Williams.

Em: And you know what? I bet–

Christine: Or Hank Green.

Em: And you would say that in front of John Mayer, I bet. It’s like, “It’s– Don’t take it personally, John. It’s just there has to be someone I like, and there has to be someone I don’t like. And unfortunately, you fell into the other category.”

Christine: “You ‘skeeve’ me out. What am I gonna do about it?”

Em: “Sorry about it.”

Christine: “Sorry about it.”

Em: [sighs] Is that why you drink? Do you drink? What do you dr– You don’t drink. What do you drink? [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] Help. I’m drinking a Morning Jolt. [holds up her to-go cup]

Em: There– Okay. Well, we’ve heard about these before.

Christine: Does it seem, does it seem that I need that? I did take my ADHD medication. It doesn’t seem like it, but I did. And I did take coffee.

Em: That– Okay. Excellent.

Christine: Thanks.

Em: Remember last time when you perfectly matched that cup and straw?

Christine: Mm.

Em: That was crazy.

Christine: I walked upstairs with the bag, and I thought, “Something happened with the straw, and I don’t remember. And maybe if I pull the straw out today, I’ll remember.” And I pulled out a blue straw and I went, “I have absolutely no fucking clue.” But so–

Em: I, I’m here to tell you.

Christine: –thank you for reminding me. Thank you.

Em: You were oddly in sync.

Christine: Oh, my NPR shirt.

Em: Yes.

Christine: Oh, fuck. You’re right. I gotta get that back.

Em: Your little gay cut-off. Yeah.

Christine: My gay shirt. Well, this is pretty gay too.

[Christine holds up her light blue T-shirt to show the design. It’s a sketch of a man riding a horse.]

Em: I mean, yeah. I think if someone who’s like any percentage gay is wearing a shirt, that makes it a gay shirt, right? So–

Christine: You're right. You’re right. You’re right. And that’s really a beautiful perspective.

Em: You and your gay glasses and sitting on that gay couch.

Christine: I think that’s why I got a D. I think he was just homophobic.

Em: I think he smelled it on you, and he went, “That’s not right.”

Christine: He did.

Em: “That’s– Something’s up.”

Christine: Well, he had a gigantic– [pauses]

Em: What now?

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Hm? Finish the sentence.

Christine: Every way that I was gonna finish that sentence was not gonna sound good. Like it doesn’t mean like inappropriate necessarily, but just on any level that I was thinking of ending that sentence, nothing end– nothing landed in a very correct way.

Em: I mean, you certainly locked me in with curiosity. I was like–

Christine: I–

Em: –“How could it go?”

Christine: I locked you in, and then I left–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and I said, “I can’t fill in, fill in the blank anymore.”

Em: [laughs] I think if you had the ability to have just walked out of the room when you s– you would have just done that.

Christine: I thought I did.

Em: “He had a huge–“ [makes footstep sounds] Bop-bop-bop-bop-bop. Walk away.

Christine: Bop-bop-bop-bop-bop. Uh, he one time broke the piano. Um, he jumped on top of it. He didn’t– He was a f– He– Okay. [makes the sound of a bell ringing]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Ding-dong, it’s me.

Em: Jack, do your magic.

Christine: Uh, my higher self came back and said, “What the fuck is going on in here, Christine?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “Get it together.”

Em: I–

Christine: And she says, “Bruce was a fine man, and you had some serious issues at home, and that’s not his fault. And you know what? It’s okay. You quit trumpet class, and now you know about the Drifting Cowboys, and they can sing "Hey, Good Lookin'" to you any time of day, day or night.”

Em: And without looking, what year did they start singing that to people?

Christine: 1951.

Em: Yep. Good job.

Christine: Is that right? [chuckles]

Em: That’s right.

Christine: See, Bruce?

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] And now we appreciate them a lot more than he ever could have taught us.

Christine: That’s exactly right.

Em: I, uh–

Christine: What you drinking?

Em: Just kind of this and that. Like I, um, I have a drink, but it’s a little old. I should have drank it yesterday.

Christine: I did, I did h– I did hear the sound of the water, of the liqui– of the, of the watered down.

Em: The slurping of me trying to get through like–

Christine: It’s hard.

Em: –the layer that was once ice. Ugh. And also, I gotta be honest now. I’m getting some heartburn situations happening over here. So like I don’t really know this is my favorite drink. So I–

Christine: You know, it’s, It’s interesting you lean back as you had the heartburn, and I saw almost what appear to be smoke rings on your shirt and I was already about to compliment the shirt. What’s happening here?

Em: It, it’s a little tugboat.

Christine: [gasps] Oh, is it–

[Em holds up their pink, teal, and light blue tie-dye shirt. In the middle, it has a graphic of a tugboat with a dazed-looking face on it and smoke rings puffing into the air. Below the graphic, it says “High Tide, Portsmouth.”]

Em: It’s a little tugboat, and it’s–

Christine: Oh, it’s a tugboat.

Em: Yeah, but it’s, it’s actually– It is high. It’s, um–

Christine: Well, I thought it was gonna be a hookah situation like the caterpillar, but now I’m seeing–

Em: Thank you.

Christine: –it’s more tugboat. Yeah. Okay.

Em: High tide.

Christine: Oh, I’m into that. “High Tide.” I’m into that. Tugboat.

Em: It was when we were in New Hampshire last, I got this shirt.

Christine: Yes, okay.

Em: I don’t understand the reference. Maybe the store was just called High Tide, but the, the tie-dye really spoke to me, and I was like, “I don’t really where–“

Christine: I mean, the colors are–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –really good. Really good.

Em: I was like– And then I, I gotta be honest, I didn’t even know– I didn’t even really look at the design until I got home, and I was like, “Oh, it’s a stoned boat.” [chuckles] I was like–

Christine: And honestly, yes.

Em: –“I should have looked.”

Christine: Correct. That’s perfect.

Em: Anyway, no, this part up here, uh, is really getting me going. [points to the tie-dye around the collar of the shirt]

Christine: Even the rings, even the rings, like the little smoke rings. I’m like–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –“Oh, that’s kind of intriguing.”

Em: Yeah, ’cause it’s like inverted tie-dye on the tie-dye or something.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Thank you.

Christine: Yeah, but I’m sorry that– to hear that it’s illustrating your acid reflux.

Em: Yeah. I’m not– Today is just like, uh, an interesting day with my, um, my esophagus, so.

Christine: Yeah. You know, some days it just wants to act up.

Em: She’s, she’s got a mind of her own. [sighs] It’s–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: –you know, whatever.

Christine: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Em: Um, I– Why do I drink this week? [groans] Allison threw her back out.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: And like th-this is the big one. This was the big one.

Christine: Shut up.

Em: Um, and so I’ve been there, and it fucking blows.

Christine: Oh no.

Em: Remember I did it in front of you?

Christine: Yep.

Em: That’s when I threw my back out the worst.

Christine: Yep.

Em: That was when I literally sprained my spine.

Christine: I will literally never forget the image of you bent like literally tabletop and like hobbling to your car away from my house–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and I was like, “I can’t help you.” Like I went and opened the car door, but I was like you’re literally like stuck.

Em: I didn’t even know if we were like– if we knew each other that well yet. I feel like it was really early on.

Christine: We, we were doing the podcast, but I had just moved, so we were like a year into the podcast, I guess.

Em: Okay. ’Cause I, I remember feeling like embarrassed that I was like lying on your couch in pain.

Christine: No, I think I was having a party, and so like you came over–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and like immediately injured yourself and laid down. And we were like, “Well, stay there,” and you were like, “I’m actually in need of medical intervention.”

Em: I had never–

Christine: And we were like, [chuckles] “Oh, fuck.”

Em: I had never felt pain like that in my life. And it was because I bent down to give a dog a treat. That was–

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I, I’m sure there’s an episode where we–

Em: We, we did this in full.

Christine: –spoke endlessly. But I would love to go back and listen because I’m sure we– I’m sure I described it in riveting drunk detail at the time. [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Well, it was, it was so out of control. I was like, “I’ve never– I hope to never feel back pain like this again.” And Allison’s currently going through that. Um–

Christine: [groans] It debilitates you. I mean–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –to your– obviously like your whole being.

Em: So I don’t really get to make this the reason why I drink. It’s more the reason why Allison would drink–

Christine: Oof.

Em: –but the reason I drink is because I’ve been picking up a lot of extra slack. It’s just been a lot of like up and down and grabbing things. And so I, I’m just a little extra sleepy ’cause like I’ve been having to get up earlier. Like Hank had a vet appointment yesterday, so I had to wake up at like 8 a.m. just to go bring him there. But then I thought, “Oh, I’ll come back, and I’ll relax a little.” But it was– yesterday every single hour I had a thing I had to be at or I had to be like cleaning up.

Christine: Oh god. My nightmare.

Em: So I was, I was just running around a lot. Um, it’s like I, I wasn’t really doing– I– like I wasn’t– I don’t know. I– It just felt like a lot to me based on what I had prepared for the day and then I realized, “Oh, I’m gonna have to like really like double up today.”

Christine: And you’re like running on empty. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. I was just– Yeah. So I– Anyway, it’s just like a silly little thing that I was– It was just a long day yesterday, and then I didn’t get to go to sleep f– uh, as early as I would have liked to. So I drink because I’m sleepy. That’s main thing.

Christine: I get that, man. Last night, Leona woke up with some weird– We think she has like a– It was like 1 in the morning, and Blaise and I were like both like jolted awake. She’s like does this coughing, like this whooping cough sound–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –but it’s not like whooping cough ’cause she’s like four now. And it’ll happen when she gets stressed, and then her vocal cords will like kind of close up–

Em: Aw.

Christine: –and so she’ll start freaking out, and it’ll like make it worse. But it’s like this wheezing, and she has trouble getting a breath, so it sounds kind of like asthma. Um, anyway, so that happened last night, and then I slept in the ch–

Em: Does she have asthma? Or like could she and we just don’t know yet?

Christine: I don’t know. We’re gonna take her to the doctor and see what it is, but it seems to be almost more of like an irritation when she coughs or gets dry– a dry throat and– which I don’t know. I don’t know much about asthma to be honest with you, but Blaise thinks it’s something with the vocal cords, but yeah. So I slept in a chair in her room last night, but the chair does go back–

Em: That sucks.

Christine: –really far and it’s super cozy, so I’m not complaining.

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: And I had my– No– I mean, not an ad, but we– they are a sponsor, my Lola blanket that I keep in there for those purposes.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So I slept actually quite well considering. Um, but yeah, I’m sorry about Al’s back. Um, uh, fun fact, I did get my reiki level two certification yesterday–

Em: [gasps] Congratulations.

Christine: –so I’m, I’m allowed to practice– Thank you. I’m allowed to like fully practice now on, on others. So if she ever wants some distance healing–

Em: [chuckles] Yeah. That actually– That couldn’t have gotten it better– perfect timing.

Christine: I– All of a sudden, everyone’s falling apart. I’m like, “I’m ready.”

Em: Speaking of Leona, did you hear that there’s another Leona in my life now?

Christine: I saw the post, and I went, “I better hear about this news because I have never seen a cuter baby in my whole life.”

Em: Not even Leona number one. I know.

Christine: I mean, really.

Em: I know. [chuckles] I don’t know.

Christine: That's the cutest little baby I ever did see.

Em: Um, yeah. So another reason why we drink this week, uh, is because RJ is a daddy now.

Christine: Mazel tov, [clapping] RJ.

Em: And he also has a Leona now.

Christine: I can’t believe it. I thought my eyes deceived me. Another Leona in your life.

Em: And they’re calling her LJ for RJ. RJ and LJ.

Christine: LJ is very cute.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: LJ is very cute. I mean, you know, when I named Leona Leona, I was like, how many ni– fun nicknames? Leo and then– No, no, just Leona, so.

Em: I– It seems, um– They– ’Cause I, I think your pitch was like, “Oh, Leona, we’re gonna call her blank.” He just immediately literally just started texting me being like, “LJ, LJ, LJ,” or “Leo, Leo, Leo.”

Christine: That’s the thing. You have to really decide–

Em: And I was like, “You gotta lock in.”

Christine: You gotta decide for them. And I was like, “I’m not gonna decide for her.” But– And there’s also a Leo in her class. So it’s like–

Em: Mm.

Christine: You know? It's too confusing.

Em: Unfortunately for you, Leo, which is an incredible name, is like the new Kyle or like–

Christine: I know. It’s like the–

Em: –Matt or whatever.

Christine: The new Kyle? What? [laughs]

Em: You know what I mean? Like in– not like in– It’s like every class is gonna have one.

Christine: Oh, I know. It’s a very common name now, especially for boys. Yeah.

Em: So it’s, um–

Christine: So Leona’s– Maybe that– is– that is– Did they have a connection to it? Did they, did they just like the name? Do we know?

Em: They didn’t tell– They, they picked out the name really early into the pregnancy–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –but didn’t tell anybody the name. Um–

Christine: Oh, it’s so good. Not that I’m biased.

Em: I had a hunch it would start with an L ’cause every damn baby I’ve ever met in the last five years starts with an L.

Christine: [chuckles] It’s true.

Em: Um, everyone’s got an L baby. So I, I– But I– that was me making like a silly theory out of it.

Christine: No, you’re psychic.

Em: And then he said, “Leona,” and I went, “Are you kidding me?” I was like, “We’ve already got one of those.”

Christine: I mean, you literally could have been like, “Oh, the name’s Leona. Oh, no, I’m just thinking of an existing baby with that name.”

Em: Right. Right.

Christine: Like, “Oh, no, that’s actually it.” That’s cra–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I don’t know any– Well, there is actually one other Leona I’ve met Leona’s age. Um, so yeah, here they come, the Leonas of the world.

Em: ’Cause– I mean, if Leo’s gonna be big, every variation of Leo is gonna be big too.

Christine: That’s right. True. Good point.

Em: Um–

Christine: Well, congratulations to them. [clapping] I’m so happy.

Em: Congratulations RJ.

Christine: It’s a cute baby.

Em: Um, I– I’ve only seen a few pictures. She does look very cute.

Christine: What an angel, darling.

Em: Um, yeah. So that’s, that’s about it. And they– It was, uh– By the way, thank you to that little baby for holding on for like 48 hours or we would have shared the same birthday. And I–

Christine: [gasps] What was the birthday?

Em: Okay, so I already did the Big Three. Don’t worry about it. RJ–

Christine: Oh, great.

Em: [chuckles] –sorry, I’m telling your kid’s Big Three. Um, well, obviously the Sun is Gemini. Uh, the birthday was June 5th, so we got a 3rd, 4th, and 5th now, you and me.

Christine: [gasps] Shut up.

Em: Um, and I was telling– [chuckles] I, I have another friend–

Christine: A Leona Gemini? Hold on. I’m having like some feelings, some big feelings.

Em: Well, I have another friend who also had a baby in June, and I was like, “It cannot be my birthday ’cause otherwise you’re not gonna come to my birthday party ’cause your kid’s got a birthday party, and now we gotta share the birthday party,” so.

Christine: And then there’s gonna be not enough juice boxes for you and all the children, Em.

Em: That’s what I’m saying.

Christine: It's gonna be a tragedy.

Em: That’s what I’m saying. I’m glad– So now we get two birthday parties. That’s what I wanted. I want two birthday parties.

Christine: Who’s– When’s–

Em: Now you get to celebrate me. I can celebrate them.

Christine: Uh, yeah, it’s perf–

Em: Uh, Tiana’s baby is also– is a June baby.

Christine: Exciting. This is so exciting. Is that an L baby too?

Em: That’s the only one that isn’t an L baby.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: Um, okay. So lil LJ for the masses–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –is Gemini Sun, Aquarius Moon, Sagittarius Rising.

Christine: Oh! The baby’s gonna be a handful.

Em: I wrote– I, I wrote back to him, and I said, “She’s gonna be so hysterical.” [chuckles] I was like, “She’s gonna–“

Christine: She’s gonna be a fucking riot.

Em: She’s gonna be the funniest little kid I’ve ever met.

Christine: She’s gonna be a riot, dude.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: She’s gonna be a riot. And also like I’m– Not to be completely biased, but Leona, Gemini Sun, same–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –Aquarius Moon, same. Um–

Em: Really?

Christine: –the only difference is I’m also an Aquarius Rising, but Sag is–

Em: What, what is she?

Christine: –Gemini’s opposite sign.

Em: Oh, oh, sorry. Now we have to decipher which LJ we’re t– or Leona we’re talking about.

Christine: Sorry. I mean, Leona, this Leona.

Em: What’s your Leona’s Big Three?

Christine: Uh, she’s a Libra Sun–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –Li-Libra Rising, and a, um, Leo Moon, which is, you know, how–

Em: That’s so silly.

Christine: It is silly because it’s fucking like in my face and also, uh–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –the moon is like your mother, like kind of like a mother symbol, and like hers being Leo and– I’m just like you’re– It’s like she, she needs me to like see her, and I’m like, “Girlfriend, I see you, babe. Don’t worry. I see you so hard.”

Em: I don’t know. I mean, I, I just don’t know about like where–

Christine: And by the way, Leo s– Moo-moon. Sorry, I just kind of– I didn’t even really realize that, but to have a Leo Moon and I named her Leona without obviously knowing what her moon would be.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Anyway, that’s kind of cute.

Em: I wa– I’m curious like the Sun is the father sign, right?

Christine: Uh–

Em: And the Moon is the mother sign? Or is that not how it works?

Christine: Um, I don’t know. I don’t think– I think the Sun’s more just like your like life force–

Em: Gotcha.

Christine: –like how you present to the world,

Em: ’Cause I feel like it’s very interesting. First of all, the fact that like Libra is like s– like balanced and grounded and all that and the fact that her Sun and her Moon are both so grounded.

Christine: Mm.

Em: And– Unless I’m wrong, but that sounds like she’s gonna be such a calm baby.

Christine: Well, Leo’s very fiery.

Em: I know. Well, didn’t you say she’s Libra, Libra, Leo?

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I wish. But she’s a very– She’s very intense. And I think the Libra that comes out of her is like my brother. Like every–

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like semantics are very important.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Everything needs to be pretty much even. She won’t forget a single thing you’ve said because if you said it, you know, that’s your word and your word is– Like she’s like, “I’m not gonna fucking forget a single thing.” Like I’m like, “Easy breezy, whatever. You know, things change.” She’s like, “You said that, and I’m gonna make you stick to that.” And I– You know, it’s, it’s a little like intense, but I think she’s gonna be– But she’s a charmer. You know, she’s a social butterfly.

Em: That is true.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: That’s true. Anyway. I didn’t know that was her Big Three.

Christine: I’m so excited for little Leona.

Em: I know.

Christine: Leona Gemini. I mean, this is crazy town. This is like, oh– How do I befriend a baby without being weird? Just kidding.

Em: I know. No, trust me. It’s– As someone who’s– all, all my friends are having babies, I’m like, I’m gonna get real close to a bunch of babies.

Christine: And you’re gonna have two like really wild Leona– like two like loud Leonas in your life, I imagine.

Em: That's fine. That's fine.

Christine: I love that for you.

Em: I can be loud. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah. Oh! [chuckles] Yeah, they– they’re just matching your energy, don’t worry.

Em: It’s exactly right. Okay, I know we’ve gone deep into the, the, the yapping these days, um, or– at the beginning of this, so I’ll jump right into my story.

Christine: “These days.” [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] I know.

Christine: It does feel like it’s been days that we’ve been talking. [chuckles]

Em: I, I, I know it– we’ve only got so much time today ’cause you’re running off to do some stuff, so I–

Christine: Guess what I have to do? I have to lift weights with my strength trainer that I have now ’cause I’m healthy.

Em: Are you a gym rat? What the fuck is going on?

Christine: No, I just am like broken. And I’m like–

Em: Oh.

Christine: –“Somebody help me fix my body.”

Em: Qi– Qigong and now also this?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: And also jiujitsu?

Christine: Yes. And also– And I do yoga in the mornings too. I’m– It’s called sobriety, I think, is what’s happening. And also mental breakdown. [chuckles]

Em: It’s giving like, not as an insult, but like almond mom or something. It’s like, “Oh, I’ve got my everyday scheduled with a different thing.”

Christine: [sighs] No, and that’s–

Em: No judgment. I’m just like, this is so not what I’m used to.

Christine: That’s– But that’s the fun thing about it is it’s not taxing, like physically taxing. Like it’s just all very like chill.

Em: Are–

Christine: Like it’s like at jiujitsu, it’s like, “Oh, and I roll over like this, and then I put my arm here,” and it’s like, you know. And then at yoga, obviously, it’s like very like centered. And then at strength training, she’s teaching me like better breathing technique. It’s like very like, like better breathing and like pelvic floor issues and like very centered to like, um, postpartum bodies and stuff like that. So it’s, it’s, uh, it’s cool, but it’s very–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –it kind of all just happened at once. And then reiki training– I don’t know. It like– It’s weird. It just kind of all happened at once.

Em: Wild.

Christine: Not intentionally.

Em: It– I mean, you just– you’re like just like probably the most fit person I know these days.

Christine: Oh, trust me. I’m not. [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Oh, you’ve seen the video of me doing qigong with the flying pig, right?

Em: You looked great.

Christine: It’s this. [raises her hands up in the air]

Em: You looked great.

Christine: I mean, thank you. But it’s not necessarily, you know. Like I’m not, um, making gains or whatever, you know, people say.

Em: Okay. Well–

Christine: I’m just kind of vibing.

Em: Well, proud of you.

Christine: Thank you.

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Em’s Story – The Holly Hotel

Em: This is a, a hotel.

Christine: Ooh!

Em: The best part about hotel stories at this point is we can fly kind of right through them. Um, we can just get to the ghosts.

Christine: And also I miss going to hotel– I haven’t traveled to a hotel in a long time, and I’m like I kind of miss like a hotel mo– not– I don’t think I ever thought I would say that, but–

Em: I, I miss a hotel.

Christine: –I miss–

Em: I miss a hotel. I don’t miss traveling to the hotel–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –but I miss the hotel.

Christine: No, I don’t either. The, the moment I start thinking about it, I’m like, “Never mind.”

Em: [chuckles] Well, um, this is the Holly Hotel in Holly, Michigan.

Christine: [gasps] I just love that name, Holly. It’s one of my favorite names.

Em: It’s a good one.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, the Holly Hotel was opened in 1891. And like I said, we can kind of fly through this history. Everyone can just repeat it with me–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –that it was built to be a railroad in for people passing through–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –from the near– the nearby trainline.

Christine: [singing] ♪ Hello, my baby / You l– ♪♪ [laughs]

Em: [laughs] Bruce?

Christine: No, there’s one.

Em: All of a su– [laughs]

Christine: Oh, [singing] ♪ Chattanooga choo choo. ♪♪ That’s the, that’s the fucking one I keep thinking about in the back of my mind. I don’t know. It’s like haunting me. “Chattanooga Choo Choo.”

Em: I– Is that– I wonder if that’s– that has anything to do with like–

Christine: Ow, my ear’s ringing. I feel like there’s some fucking– Is this a psychic message? What’s the “Chattanooga Choo Choo”?

Em: Does it have anything to do with–

Christine: I have no idea.

Em: –like when you like how you say “Chattanooga” it sounds like a train?

Christine: I mean, I– It’s a town in Tennessee.

Em: I know, but like–

Christine: Oh. [laughs]

Em: –you know how people say, “Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chatta–” and it’s like– sounds like a train. Is that why–

Christine: Oh, I did not know. I guess. I had no idea. Bruce didn’t teach me that. That’s a cool fact.

Em: Yeah, Bruce should have fucking– Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chattanooga. The– And it’s–

Christine: [singing] ♪ Chattanooga choo choo– ♪♪ Oh, that’s the Glenn Miller Orchestra, which I have discussed was my MySpace artist for a while. The Glenn– uh, the Glenn Miller Orchestra.

Em: Everything about you is different than what anyone else would say.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: [laughs]

Christine: That’s because I’m an Aquarius Rising and Moon–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –and nobody can take that away from me. [chuckles]

Em: Well, uh, eat your heart out, Bruce, and all the music appreciators because, uh, somewhere in this hotel, I’m sure some vaudeville music was playing.

Christine: I love it.

Em: So there’s a railroad in for people passing through from the nearby train line. It was like over 25, 30 trains coming in every day, so they needed somewhere to stay. Okay.

Christine: Okay.

Em: And per usual, because businessmen and politicians would be passing through, this hotel needed to be very, very elegant. And yet, it was also the hub for all the locals. I’m literally just like– I, I promise I like my job–

Christine: And yet–

Em: –but I am over this storyline.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um– [laughs] Um, it was known ma-mainly for its restaurant. I guess that was one of the ways they really got people to keep coming in. It’s like, “Well, you gotta try our food.” Um, but then by the 1940s– What song was playing in the 1940s?

Christine: Oh, this one. [singing] ♪ Chattanooga choo choo ♪♪ 1940.

Em: Perfect.

Christine: It was all the rage.

Em: So now everyone play that in their head. In the 1940s, um, cars and highways were becoming more common, so less people were taking the train. So there was no longer a need to like stay a night at a hotel in the middle as if it’s a layover. And eventually they just stopped really trying to be mu– as much of a hotel and more of– focusing on their restaurant. And then to keep entertainment coming in, they opened up a comedy club in there.

Christine: Oh.

Em: So it was now a restaurant and comedy club–

Christine: Okay, but I–

Em: –that also held high tea on Sundays– or on every day but Sundays.

Christine: Okay. So what I’m sensing here is that instead of like designing a program, they almost found the people who could offer their talent. So like a chef was like, “I could make food”–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –and like clearly his food was really good, and they were like, “Okay, we’ve got like a s– excellent restaurant.” And then someone was like– Um, what was the other thing? Not– Before the high tea.

Em: The comedy club.

Christine: Yeah. Someone clearly had to be a comedian first to be like, “Well, we have some funny talent here.”

Em: Right.

Christine: So I love that they’re like bringing in the talent, being like, “How can we utilize this?”

Em: They’re just– Or maybe someone just kept coming to the restaurant and was so funny they were like, “Just get up there and keep talking.”

Christine: “Just give ‘em a mic.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah.

Em: So they started, uh, really focusing more on that. I mean, this was closer to like, you know, this was many decades in where eventually it’s now just a restaurant and a comedy club. But that’s probably– Basically, eventually Prohibition kicked in. And while they couldn’t serve alcohol, they started trying other things to keep the hotel afloat, and that’s when they realized that entertainment was useful. And so then after Prohibition, they kept bringing in entertainment with the restaurant, and eventually it just became a comedy club.

Christine: [chuckles] They were like, “We don’t have booze. I guess we’ll hire a stand-up comedian.”

Em: Yeah. [laughs] “People will love that.”

Christine: [chuckles] Like that’s a terrible idea, but okay. I guess it worked.

Em: So it was, uh, originally called the Hirst Hotel because it was built by a guy named John Hirst. It was later renamed the Alfen– Nope. Allendorf–

Christine: Oh. Lame.

Em: –which is not even better than what I was gonna say. Allendorf, then Hotel Norton, and then it became the Holly Hotel. So–

Christine: Best one. Best one.

Em: For sure. And also like Holly’s the name of the fucking town. Like–

Christine: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Don’t be ridiculous.

Em: –that’s gonna work every time.

Christine: Norton? Get a, get a grip.

Em: Get– Literally, hey.

Christine: Hey.

Em: Here’s a grip. Get it. I said it.

Christine: I’ll wait.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Let me know when you go get it. Okay. Um, one of the most notable pieces of history that happened in this hotel was in 1908, which, uh, was, how many years in, like 17 years into this hotel existing. In 1908– Do you know the name Carrie Nation?

Christine: I don’t think– Uh, maybe.

Em: Beautiful. Okay. So–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –next to this hotel, there was a street called Battle Alley. And it was called Battle Alley because there were so many bar fights happening in that street that they were just like–

Christine: Oh, I was like, “Oh, from the, from the Civil War.” No, they’re just bar fights.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Okay. Got it.

Em: No, truly just from bar fights. And so because it was only this rowdy because of booze, this, um, intrigued a, a group of pro-temperance people.

Christine: Mm, of course it did.

Em: Who– One of the people involved was Carrie Nation. Her, um–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: Her middle initial is A, by the way. And so she later changed her name spelling from Carrie (C-A-R-R-I-E) to C-A-R-R-Y–

Christine: No. Don’t be–

Em: –so her name could be Carry A. Nation.

Christine: Don’t be ridiculu– I mean it’s already Carrie A. Nation, which like let it be–

Em: Right.

Christine: –the cool thing.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Don’t like force it into something that it’s already is– It’s weird.

Em: Like people are already making the joke, for sure. So like you don’t have to–

Christine: You don’t need to like– Yeah.

Em: –prove it.

Christine: It's like you’re saying– you’re going– taking it one joke too far, you know?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, I totally agree.

Em: Like we’re, we’re already on board.

Christine: We see it.

Em: Like we’re already talking. Yeah.

Christine: Spelled the sa– It sounds the same.

Em: So she, um–

Christine: Well, she, she hopefully was not the comedian at the restaurant–

Em: [chuckles] No.

Christine: –’cause she’s not very fucking funny. Okay.

Em: But according to Wikipedia, she’s also known as “Hatchet Granny.”

Christine: Oh, now we’re talking. That’s her drag name.

Em: I was gonna say that’s her onstage after-hours name, for sure.

Christine: You know she was– Oh, her persona! When she–

Em: Carrie A. Nation, Hatchet Granny.

Christine: –when, when she’s actually a drunk and she’s pretending like she’s really not– she’s not part of the Temperance movement.

Em: [chuckles] That’s exactly–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: [in a raspy voice] “Don’t tell ‘em.” [makes the sound of taking a drink]

Christine: “Don’t tell ‘em.”

Em: Um, so in– So she’s in this pro-Temperance group. I think she actually created or founded the pro-Temperance group.

Christine: Mm, she’s projecting.

Em: And her– Basically, what ended up happening is the way she got into all this is that her husband had died of alcoholism–

Christine: Ohh.

Em: –which led her to start like praying to god, being like, “What should I do to get people to never have to deal with this again?” And I guess Jesus told her to make everyone stop drinking.

Christine: Carry a nation? Okay.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I mean, like it speaks– it writes itself.

Em: So she– So Mr. Nation dies, and then she’s like, “Well, now I’m gonna go–“

Christine: Oof.

Em: “–uh, on all these protests to make sure that we just stop condoning drinking.”

Christine: Okay, I can understand the sentiment. I do. I, I wanna, I wanna say that’s–

Em: We started in a good place.

Christine: –that’s a tragic, tragic story.

Em: We started in a good place or with good intentions.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, she would go basically, uh, not– I wouldn’t say door to door, but she would find the big bars in an area where– or wherever alcohol was served and then she would just walk in and just start smashing all those bottles and all those glasses.

Christine: What?

Em: She just–

Christine: That was her fucking– That’s what Jesus–

Em: Full-blown vandalism.

Christine: [gasps] Like Jesus at the temple. Oh my god.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: So one of these places was Holly Hotel–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –and– but she was– This time, she went with her like her group. Over time she kind of like created–

Christine: Of course, she had a posse.

Em: –created a posse.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: Um, there was a time where she–

Christine: She didn’t create it. They fucking– She just fucking attracted it, I bet you.

Em: There were times that she kept vandalizing and vandalizing– then she eventually got like arrested for it and came back, and then she like came out swinging even harder and was like, “Now we’re gonna go to every bar,” and so– Um–

Christine: Whoa. Yeah. She’s like, “Nothing left to lose, man.”

Em: Yeah. And so when she got to Holly Hotel, this is a quote, but the group “clubbed patrons with their umbrellas–“

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “–and Carrie broke whiskey bottles in the hotel bar with an axe”–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –which is why she’s Hatchet Granny. Um–

Christine: Okay, now I’m loving this. I mean, I’m not loving it, but I’m also kind of like intrigued, you know.

Em: I respect any woman, especially in the early 1900s, who was able to protest at all, um–

Christine: Who had– Yeah. I mean, yeah, you gotta–

Em: –or found a way to.

Christine: Yeah, you gotta– That’s, that’s a feat in and of itself. You’re right.

Em: And you know what? I mean, the definition of a protest is to disrupt society–

Christine: You're correct.

Em: –and to go to their drinking holes and say, “Fuck you,” and smash all their booze? Woo. That couldn’t have been good.

Christine: I, I will say it’s not really gonna– I don’t think it’s gonna work. I don’t necessarily think the people there are– But maybe, maybe that’s not the point. Maybe the point is you’re making a name for yourself and that’s– I don’t know.

Em: The irony is that they probably thought she was hammered. [laughs]

Christine: I mean, maybe with, with God’s– with the Holy Spirit or something.

Em: Yes, drunk with God’s love. Yes.

Christine: Drunk on, drunk on Holy Spirit.

Em: Drunk on Jesus.

Christine: Oof.

Em: Um, so her efforts actually did later help Prohibition pass. Yikes. So she was probably the most hated woman in the world to a few people.

Christine: Wow. So she really did– Okay, I lied. I was like, “Oh, she’s not really gonna do anything with that,” but apparently she did.

Em: She wasn’t– I don’t know if she was directly involved ’cause I think by the time she passed away Prohibition hadn’t even happened yet and it came later, but I think she was at least the first steps into like people–

Christine: Right.

Em: –showing that they were not for this and–

Christine: And she clearly like made a following or had a following.

Em: Right.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, however, in the biggest F you way possible, um, a lot of bars, including Holly Hotel, uh, they commemorate her protests there by now having like annual reenactments–

Christine: [chuckles] Of course they do. [gasps] Oh!

Em: –and like discounting their drinks at the bar.

Christine: I thought you were gonna say there’s a cocktail named after her, which I’m sure there’s plenty.

Em: Oh, I’m sure there’s some– Like with holly, like–

Christine: Which feels like the– Oh my god, doesn’t it feel like the ultimate slap in the face, though? Like– What’s her name again? Car– Oh, Carrie A. Nation.

Em: Carrie A. Nation.

Christine: I mean, you really could get a little crazy with that if you wanted to make a little cocktail after her, which is kind of fucked up. I would hope it’d be a mocktail.

Em: At the very least, you could have a sign outside on the day, the anniversary, and just say like “Carry A Drink Around,” [chuckles] you know? Just like–

Christine: There you go. Open, open container. Um–

Em: Open Carry. [laughs]

Christine: Yeah, open carry. So– Oh, Open Carry. Holy shit.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: That’s good. Um, don’t let–

Em: Well, s–

Christine: Don’t tell the NRA about that–

Em: Right.

Christine: –’cause they’re gonna take that and run with it. Uh–

Em: That’s an open carry I’m, I’m chill with, for sure.

Christine: Open Carry A. Nation. Um, so [chuckles] anyway, uh, yeah.

Em: So basically the hotel would have like annual reenactments of like–

Christine: Crazy.

Em: –like someone actually coming in and like pretending to like be Carrie Nation. Um, they would have discounts on their drinks that day, but they have like an annual event about the day that she came in.

Christine: That’s wild.

Em: Similar bars– I– This is– I’m just– I looked her up very quickly because she’s not supposed to be the main character of the story, but this story is pretty quick, and so I was just trying to find a fun fact for us to deep dive into, and this is the one. Um, so I did a quick Wikipedia search on her. I did not like go very deep into it, but, um, other bars that she like vandalized also do this now. So like it’s not just Holly Hotel–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –but there’s, um, a bar in Missouri that is called the Broken Hatchet Brewery–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –that I guess either she was once at or they’re– they named themselves after the story. Um, this is the coolest thing I saw was that the inventor of the Pet Rock who made like millions– He used those millions. His Pet Rock money went to opening a bar called the Carrie Nation Saloon.

Christine: No?

Em: Yeah. Isn’t that fun?

Christine: What in the fuck? That is the weirdest fact I’ve ever heard.

Em: ’Cause you’d be like, “What the hell did the guy with the Pet Rock– Like, how did he make that much money, one, and two, what the hell did he do with that money?” And he ended up making a saloon with the name of someone–

Christine: Apparently–

Em: –who would have hated it.

Christine: –he had a fucking vision.

Em: [chuckles] I guess he really had a plan. He said, “First, I gotta get people to like these goddamn rocks.”

Christine: Seriously. I– He doesn’t–

Em: “Put a googly eye on this rock right now.”

Christine: Here’s the thing. He doesn’t gotta do anything. It fucking– It’s like he just channeled some divine fucking– He’s like, “Here’s a rock,” and everyone’s like, “I fucking love it.”

Em: I mean, really, his parents probably like, “Oh, my kid– like all he wants to do is grow up and open a bar, but where is he gonna get the money?” And he had– he was sitting on a pile of rocks, and he went, “I’ve got an idea.” [chuckles]

Christine: They sell–

Em: “I’m gonna sell them.”

Christine: –fucking sell themselves. Hotcakes.

Em: Um, fun fact, there is a segment about Carrie Nation on Drunk History, so, um–

Christine: Ooh, that would be fun.

Em: It, it was– It’s a quick little clip on, um, uh, on YouTube. You can just go watch it. It’s like five minutes. Um, but it was very interesting. And anyway, all that to say, we’re at a hotel that was once a railroad and blah-blah-blah-blah. Carrie Nation, that was one of her stops on her big like–

Christine: I love that.

Em: –bar protest tour.

Christine: Her big tour.

Em: And, um, once she had passed away, Prohibition took over, and Prohibition became obviously this really big thing, and the hotel needed a way to keep afloat. So one of the first ways that they had entertainment at the hotel to keep people coming in was– I– only one source said this, but apparently they had a movie theater in there at some point, and they had an ice cream parlor in there at some point. But here’s–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –my favorite thing is that I’ve read enough of these histories about hotels and during Prohibition era at this point, a lot of them opened ice cream parlors and they were actually speakeasies.

Christine: Wink wink! Yeah.

Em: Wink wink. So I’m kind of wondering did the Holly Hotel actually open an ice cream parlor or they just put a big parlor in front of their bar?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: You know?

Christine: Did they put a big freezer in there and said, “It’s for ice cream”?

Em: You know, we really did start And That’s Why We Drink with booze and ice cream, not knowing that it was like a– actually such a key plot line–

Christine: I know.

Em: –for– in Prohibition era. Like it was such a tie.

Christine: And we really don’t talk about that very often, but yeah.

Em: No, but that really– We like– If this was also a Prohibition era podcast, like that would have secretly actually been the perfect fucking theme.

Christine: Oh my god, you’re totally right.

Em: And we didn’t even know it. Um, okay. So back to the hotel. The main tragedy that happened at this hotel was that it had suffered three separate fires.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, one of them in 1913, uh, and it was enough that the hotel was so destroyed it had to be renovated. And it was kind of a blessing in disguise because during its renovations, they were able to like add electricity and shit like that in there.

Christine: Mm.

Em: But they also kind of changed some things design-wise where it didn’t look as, what we would consider, beautiful today. But then in 1978, o– literally on the 65th anniversary of the first fire–

Christine: No.

Em: –all the way down, this is a quote, “exactly the same time to the hour.”

Christine: What?

Em: Same hour on the same day–

Christine: Why?

Em: –65 years apart. Um, th– I think this one was faulty wiring.

Christine: Mm-hmm. No. Ghosts.

Em: That damn electricity! Shouldn’t have put the electricity in.

Christine: Aw.

Em: [chuckles] Um, but they– it ended up causing over $500,000 in damages, so they had to re-redo it. It’s starting to feel like–

Christine: Jesus.

Em: –the Bob’s Burgers intro. [chuckles] It’s like–

Christine: Oh my god. Yes, yes. Another banner. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. [laughs] Um, but another blessing in disguise because, fun fact, this second time around that they had to renovate after a fire, they used the original 1891 blueprints and got it–

Christine: Ooh.

Em: –back to looking exactly how it did in 1891.

Christine: See, I love that. Maybe that’s what needed to happen. It was like, “Hey, actually, let’s just start over.”

Em: Yeah. The first time was like, “We’re gonna burn it down so you put some electricity in there. Then we’re gonna burn it down again so you can get back to how it was looking.”

Christine: “Yeah. Yeah. We actually kind of didn’t want you to go that far.

Em: [chuckles] Right.

Christine: “You went a little too modern with the fixtures–“

Em: Exactly.

Christine: “–etc.”

Em: So during this renovation or if– like two years after, it ended up joining the National Register of Historic Places. And then the third fire, the third and final one, was actually only four years ago.

Christine: Oh!

Em: And the fire happened at a nearby building. It was like an arcade. I, I thought “arcade” like games, but I think it was like, like the name of like a, like a mall, like a strip mall.

Christine: Oh, like a plaza or something.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Um, and it started in one building and then kind of swept through the whole–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –series of shops and got to the hotel.

Christine: Scary.

Em: And, uh, I guess, [chuckles] I guess the town knows that this hotel has caught on fire a lot and so 18 different fire departments showed up to like put water out on this thing. They tried to handle it quickly.

Christine: They were like, “Not again.”

Em: Yeah, like hundreds of firefighters showed up.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Uh, in the aftermath of this fire, the owners ended up trying to rebuild, but then the owner of the–

Christine: So it did catch on fire again? Like so the actual hotel did–

Em: It did–

Christine: Oh no.

Em: –and, and like got pretty messed up.

Christine: Jesus.

Em: Um, when they– And what– See, I read an interview somewhere that said like the owners only lived like seven minutes away, and by the time they got there, it was like already just destroyed.

Christine: That is so weird.

Em: Um, so they have this fire. They’re gonna rebuild it, but then the people who own the arcade that originally caught on fire, they end up getting in some sort of like legal dispute–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –with that guy because technically, now that it’s 2022, property lines are different than they were in 1891.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: So if they’re trying to keep the hotel as original as possible, it now is like crossing into like new property lines that the other guy technically owns.

Christine: Ohh.

Em: And so he was like, “I don’t want you on my property line. You can’t rebuild in this area.” And they’re like, “But it– then it wouldn’t be authentic to the original. Like, can you just like–“

Christine: And he was like, “I don’t care.” [chuckles]

Em: Yeah, he– I would have been like on their side and been like, “Can you just humor us? Like we’re trying to like re– like respect the history”–

Christine: I mean– But I get it.

Em: –but I also get his side.

Christine: Like if he wants to like have his proper– I mean, I don’t know. It’s not his fucking problem.

Em: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know how it got so tricky so quickly, but it did. And I guess it just became– There was some rule. I, I didn’t save this part, but in some statement that they put out, it was like, “as, as long as we– if we keep our s– if we– if we’re honoring the original property lines, then like he has a reason to like keep our crews from building the re–“ Something, something happened where it just wasn’t gonna happen.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: So with enough back-and-forth on this, they decided like, “Fuck it. Like, we’re just– We just have to close.” And so, as of 2024, the hotel has closed.

Christine: Oh, that’s too bad. Okay.

Em: It’s, um– I don’t know if it’s sold since, but it’s been on sale, at least as of 2024, for $900,000. Um, and the bones are still good of it, but the– it definitely needs like a facelift after the fire. Um, but that’s all the history. So as for ghosts–

Christine: Oof. I bet there’s plenty.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] So– Well, I don’t even know if anyone died in the fires. I didn’t see anything about that.

Christine: Oh, yeah. I guess fires alone don’t– But it sounds like somebody’s trying to fucking burn this place down.

Em: [chuckles] It does feel like that.

Christine: Carrie? Maybe? I don’t know.

Em: Maybe Carrie. Maybe sh– from the beyond, she’s like, “I’m not through with you.”

Christine: With a name like Carrie, I’m just saying.

Em: [chuckles] Carry A. Nation, carry the universe.

Christine: Mm. [gasps] Whoa.

Em: She basically– I, I mean, they must have known things were going on paranormally here f– a long time ago because back in the ‘80s, they had investigators coming out. And–

Christine: Oh, wow. In the ‘80s?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, you don’t hear that often.

Em: So in 1989, there was one, um, guy who was pretty popular named Nor-Norman Gauthier and, um–

Christine: You should do an episode on that guy. I feel like he’d be funny to talk about.

Em: I feel like he’s got some–

Christine: Not funny, but I feel like he’s like– there’s something about this guy. He reminds me of a Chip Coffey, you know?

Em: Yeah, I would actually–

Christine: I wanna know about this guy.

Em: I would s– I’d stick to your original phrasing and say he’s funny because I’m like, “What were you doing in the ‘80s being a paranormal investigator?”

Christine: Seriously. Like you gotta give me the deets o-on this guy.

Em: Something’s happening. But he went in, and h-he was pretty like renowned, uh– or I don’t know about renowned, but people knew his name, and he confirmed that this place was, quote, “loaded with spirits.” So–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –um, that was kind of all the hotel needed to be like, “All right, we’re a haunted hotel.”

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Em: So the first ghost that people know about pretty well is Mr. Hirst, the guy who first originally opened the building–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –when it was Hirst Hotel. It was named after him.

Christine: Is this like the Hearst family? Like publishing family?

Em: H-I-R-S-T.

Christine: Patty Hearst? Oh, never mind. Never mind.

Em: Okay. So, uh, people see his apparition a lot. They see a man, quote, “in a 19th century frock coat and top hat.”

Christine: Oh, hot. [laughs]

Em: I was gonna say it’s been like a hundred years, take it off.

Christine: Like, guy, come on.

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Go to JCPenney.

Em: Like it’s okay to just wear some basketball shorts. You’re dead.

Christine: Seriously. Like and you know people leave stuff in the, in the hotel room. Just grab something.

Em: Just anything. That’s such a good point. You’re in a house full of clothing. Just take it.

Christine: Yep. Correct.

Em: And they would probably love it if you took it ’cause then they get a ghost story out of it.

Christine: Oh, the lost and found. Just go through the lost and found. They don’t need that shit anymore.

Em: [sighs] If you– Okay, you’re dead now. So like what’s your official ou– Well, first of all, do you change your outfit regularly or are you just gonna have one– If you’re told you only get one outfit, are you going–

Christine: Hm.

Em: –for like style or you going for comfort ’cause you’re there for eternity?

Christine: Uh, how about both? Okay? I’m going for I wanna look cute but never regret what I’m wearing forever, which is very hard to find. But I think I would have to spend a lot of time trying to put that together.

Em: I think if–

Christine: Thank you for asking. But I would have to know if I, if I sweat ’cause if I sweat I’m gonna have a lot of outfit changes, you know–

Em: I would need to know that–

Christine: –in the afterlife.

Em: What’s the– Is, is the afterlife a perfect 71º/72º?

Christine: Sure. Perspiration ratio. I need to know all these things before I commit to any sort of clothing.

Em: I agree. And– But if I’m stuck wearing one thing forever and like I am sensory aware of what I’m wearing at any point–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –like I need to know that going into this. And I–

Christine: Oh. Trouble, trouble, trouble.

Em: People would just be like, “Oh my god, we went to Em Schulz’s house, and there was a homeless person haunting–“ And it would just be me like in like the most raggedy comfortable things possible. Like I wouldn’t–

Christine: Yeah. You’d–

Em: Like I feel like, like the Kardashians are probably gonna die and be wearing like, I don’t–

Christine: Their like–

Em: –some crazy skintight like–

Christine: Their like–

Em: –things that aren’t comfy.

Christine: –silk lingerie that they sleep in or whatever. Yeah. And it’s like, oh, s– couldn’t be me.

Em: I’m wearing my basketball shorts that have three holes in them. I’m wearing my sweatshirt that has four. Like, I’m gonna be real comfy.

Christine: So basically, our generation of ghosts is gonna be so much scarier–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –’cause we’re all just gonna be wearing like “cloaky,” baggy, like kind of like–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –sorcerer-style dark layers and like–

Em: You know like the clothes that zombies wear where it just looks run the fuck down?

Christine: Yeah. Where it’s like, “How many layers did you put on?”

Em: That’s what I’ll be in. [laughs]

Christine: And also, I feel like part of it is like, “I just got up to pee, and I accidentally died on the way,” you know?

Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christine: Like, “I was watch– I was binging my show, and I really had to pee, and then I died, and that’s how I got here.” Um, and also like usually that, that whole vibe goes with sort of like a “don’t perceive me” element, and I feel like that–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –also hand-in-hand with the ghost thing is gonna be troubling for future investigators.

Em: I think that’s also– Like it like make– ’Cause if I know when I go I want to be found by investigators, like I’m– Let this statement be known if– At some point, I’ll be dead, and at some point, I would like to think one paranormal investigator is gonna hear this.

Christine: Yeah, contact me.

Em: I’m, I’m telling you right now. I will– I want to be found. I will actively–

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: If, if ghosts are real, I’m– and you’re in my house or you’re somewhere where I’ll be like–

Christine: You're not hiding.

Em: I’m not hiding, and I will active– You don’t have to say like, “We would love to– for you to come out and tell us your story.” Fuck that. I’m screaming my story, and if you can’t hear it, it’s because the machines are broken.

Christine: Em’s been following you around for days, knowing you’re on the way and has been telling you this story.

Em: I literally– If you felt, if you felt a tingle on the way, it’s because I was already there.

Christine: You’re like, “Excuse me.”

Em: But you wanna– Like I would argue that wearing my like ratty clothes would be better because like you’re definitely not gonna like confuse me with someone else in the crowd.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: You know what I mean? Like, like–

Christine: Except Christine who also dies someday–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: –and looks exactly like that, but yeah.

Em: Well, like at the haunted house– like the haunted houses where like they think they like a child is lost in there but then they realized it was like a random– like it was a dead kid.

Christine: Sure.

Em: It’s like, well, maybe if he was like barefoot–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –and wearing like something that was clearly 20 years older than [chuckles] than his timeline–

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been–

Em: –he’d be noticeable.

Christine: –a little more cle– more obvious. Yeah.

Em: Yes.

Christine: I get you. I get you. Yeah.

Em: I think that’s where I’d be. But then if, if you die in the outfit that you just– if you’re a ghost in the outfit that you died in, then I’m probably just only gonna be in my underwear, and that’s even more embarrassing.

Christine: Ohh. Well, it is, but it isn’t. ’Cause also it’s threatening.

Em: [laughs] I don’t know how, but you’re right.

Christine: Like it’s all about, it’s all about how you look at it. [laughs]

Em: It’s all about confidence. As long as I’m walking around bold without pants–

Christine: Boldly. That’s–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It’s all about the attitude.

Em: Yeah. Pants are like 80% of the time not on me.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: So I really hope you get to choose the outfit because–

Christine: Oh, yeah. I, I’ve already resigned myself to being like half nude when I die ’cause I don’t–

Em: [chuckles] Right.

Christine: –I don’t usually wear pants. Yeah. No, that’s not happening.

Em: You know what I find interesting though, and one of the reasons I don’t believe that you, you– I think you get to choose what you wear–

Christine: Mm-hmm?

Em: –is that so many people have probably died naked. You– I–

Christine: True.

Em: Not a single naked ghost have I heard of.

Christine: You know–

Em: They know better than to like, like approach you like that.

Christine: That is so true. And I feel like maybe part of that is that you– they say, you know, you kind of revert back to an image of yourself at like the peak or like the–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –the most glowing version of you, and I would presume most people don’t– maybe some, which like good for you. I hope to as– I aspire to be that way, but I don’t feel my most like golden and holy when I’m in the nude, you know?

Em: Mm-hmm. [chuckles] Me neither.

Christine: Maybe my golden era would be more of like something cute I wore on stage, you know, or something. Like maybe that– maybe you just get reverted back to like, oh, your youthful self–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –but not necessarily like, oh, oops, you’re naked, sorry, forever.

Em: If you got to– I, I mean, if we’re going off of like our– like what we would wear on stage when you felt your best, I know you’re coming and haunting us with that fucking black leather jacket. I fucking know it.

Christine: Thank you. Or the blazer–

Em: And those black– And the black–

Christine: The blazer, the blazer.

Em: –and the black jeans with the holes in the knees. Christine, you look so killer in those.

Christine: Thank you. Aw, thanks.

Em: As a ghost, people will be like, “I don’t know if she was dead or alive, but she was fucking slamming.”

Christine: [laughs]

Em: “You know what I mean?”

Christine: “But she really– She’s probably got a Leo Moon–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–’cause she is really in our fucking faces and will not leave us alone. Holy shit.”

Em: Well, anyway, this guy’s got a fucking frock coat and a top hat. I can’t imagine–

Christine: I mean–

Em: –anything more uncomfortable. Um–

Christine: –maybe that was his evening wear. Maybe we don’t know.

Em: You know what’s so embarrassing? Maybe that was his version of looking slamming–

Christine: That’s what I mean.

Em: –and we’re just ragging on him.

Christine: Like maybe that’s– Maybe he was like, “That is my choice, and now I’m humiliated,” and I’m sorry.

Em: Oh, I feel bad now.

Christine: I feel bad.

Em: Well, when I get there on the other side, I’ll make a stop in Michigan and go, [whispering] “I didn’t mean it. I’m sorry.” Um, so anyway, he’s also accompanied by the smell of cigar smoke, and he has quite a deep baritone voice that–

Christine: Oh?

Em: –people can hear laughing.

Christine: Oh?

Em: And I like to think it’s because of the comedy club. Um–

Christine: I bet it’s hilarious.

Em: I bet he’s like, “I don’t know what these kids are saying, but they–“

Christine: [chuckles] They–

Em: “–look like they’re having a good time.”

Christine: “Gives me a chuckle.”

Em: People also see a, a different man – or maybe the same man, unclear – a man in the halls vanishing in front of them while helping turn off lights and closing doors.

Christine: Oh.

Em: So like a worker–

Christine: He’s like, “Let me help, but get out of the r– but don’t look at me.”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: He’s like, he’s like, “Don’t look at me, but just gonna do my work.”

Em: Yeah. You would think like you’d vanish before you turn off the lights, but he turns off the lights after– Like, so you see a man fade away, and then all of a sudden, the lights cut out, and you’re like, “Ahh!”

Christine: “Ahh!” Oh, yeah. He’s like, “Oh, don’t– Yeah. I’m–“

Em: Do those in reverse. [chuckles]

Christine: “Don’t mind me. I’m the invisible janitor.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, I don’t like that.

Em: Um, people also, uh, see a different ghost. This one, her name is Nora Kane. What a powerful name.

Christine: Mm. Love that.

Em: Nora Kane, I think, died and now comes back with a boa on her neck or something. Like something–

Christine: Oh, for sure.

Em: Nora Kane’s so powerful. She was–

Christine: “This old thing?”

Em: [laughs] Uh, she’s a former hostess of the hotel, and people see her whole apparition, uh, like walking around and her bo– her full body, but sometimes people only see her head floating by itself.

Christine: [gasps] Is the boa the– Oh, wait.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: The boa is something you made up. Sorry, I forgot.

Em: I– [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] I forgot the boa is something you said. I was like, “Holy shit! The boa.” Okay.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So but–

Em: It’s just gonna fall right on the ground.

Christine: It’s just her head. That’s disturbing and strange.

Em: Yeah, pe– Even staff have said like, “We were closing up, and then we thought we saw–“

Christine: That's so weird.

Em: “–a woman in the other room, but when we looked it was like there– only her head.”

Christine: That’s fucking weird.

Em: People often see, uh, Nora standing in the old main entrance, which would make sense for her, but it is now the bar area. People also say that she will photobomb your pictures–

Christine: I love–

Em: –if you’re there for a venue–

Christine: –that. I love that.

Em: –like a, like a function. She’ll, she’ll be in pictures.

Christine: Just her head?

Em: I don’t know actually.

Christine: ’Cause that would make it more convenient. You can float up–

Em: And if you can, if you can only show your head, can you not also sometimes just like only show like an ankle and like be really scandalous?

Christine: Your butt? [chuckles]

Em: Yeah. Like can you just like flash and only one part of you shows up?

Christine: Maybe.

Em: I don’t know what the possibilities are.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Em: She’s also heard singing, or if you’re by a piano, sh– people have heard her ask them to play piano for her.

Christine: Aw.

Em: Um, apparently, the piano will also play by itself sometimes. Very eerie.

Christine: It’s probably fucking Bruce.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: The fucking guy, always seeking a piano out.

Em: He’s still trying to figure out that Chattanooga song or something.

Christine: Please. He's still trying to teach it to me.

Em: So most commonly, people know her by her lavender perfume. And like I said, the other guy, Mr. Hirst, people know him by his cigar smell. I think the smells are much more conf– more common than seeing them.

Christine: Mm.

Em: Um, but with Nora Kane, people, uh, have also seen her specifically in the bathroom, but it’s always like after you’ve already gone to the bathroom and you go to the sink to wash your hands, and then she just like appears next to you, and she’s whispering something you can’t hear.

Christine: Ah!

Em: Blegh.

Christine: Well, I hate that. And also it reminds me of the photobombing where she just like appears in a reflection of you or like in a–

Em: Yeah. Bam!

Christine: –in– behind you or– Eugh.

Em: Yeah, yeah.

Christine: Eugh.

Em: No, thank you. There’s, um– How do I put it? I don’t know if it’s Nora Kane or if it’s a different woman, but one of the staff members have said that although she seems really nice and friendly, eventually she will, quote, “change her demeanor, and it’s something a lot more like a monster.”

Christine: Ah! What could that mean?

Em: I just hate it.

Christine: What could that mean?

Em: And then like no more information happens about that. It’s just–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: That's it. So you just get to guess and maybe go there and hope–

Christine: Like she just gets like a little bitchy ’cause everyone’s like crowding in? Or is it like she literally turns demonic? You know what I mean? Like there’s like a wide range of what that could mean.

Em: And there’s something so eerie about anyone whispering and you can’t hear–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –what they’re saying but they’re looking at you. Eugh.

Christine: And– Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-uh.

Em: No thanks.

Christine: No.

Em: There’s also the ghost of a little girl who ranges widely between 9 and 15.

Christine: Oh?

Em: People just can’t tell their age I guess.

Christine: People are bad at guessing ages, including me.

Em: I’m bad at guessing, um, all, all: height–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: –weight, age.

Christine: All. [chuckles]

Em: I can’t, I can’t guess any of it. If someone was like, “What do they look like?” I would just describe–

Christine: No clue.

Em: –a completely wrong person.

Christine: [laughs]

Em: Um–

Christine: “Picture a person–“

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “–and that’s usually what they look like. Yeah. That’s pretty good.”

Em: And also ’cause I’m so gender inclusive, I’m like, I couldn’t even– Maybe a little masc, maybe a little femme. I don’t–

Christine: Didn’t, didn’t–

Em: Whatever they were feeling.

Christine: They weren’t wearing a pin with their pronouns, so it’s not for me to say. [chuckles]

Em: Yeah. You’re better off with just a solid shado– like Peter Pan’s shadow is–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: That’s where we start, and that’s where we end. So–

Christine: I get it. I can see it.

Em: –there’s a, a little girl here between 9 and 15. Although some have said it’s two separate little girls–

Christine: Okay.

Em: –which would make more sense to me. But she’s said to either be Nora’s daughter or apparently there was a story that a kid got trampled by one of the horses one time.

Christine: Oh no.

Em: I don’t know how true that is, but that’s at least a rumor, and people think that that’s where the spirit of the girl might be coming from. Um, but she’s heard running up and down the halls. She’s heard giggling. She moves objects around the hotel. She showed up one time during a seance. Horrifying.

Christine: Mm-mmm.

Em: Um, and most of the time, she haunts the kitchen. Actually, one chef – it was very funny – in an interview, who’s like, “It’s actually really fucking annoying during like rush time, and like I’m busy, and there’s a kid giggling in my ear.” And–

Christine: Oh my god. And sharp knives everywhere.

Em: Yes. Well, speaking of sharp knives, her favorite thing to do is play with the knives.

Christine: I knew it. Fucking knew it.

Em: Favorite thing. Um, especially there’s this one particular meat cleaver–

Christine: Oh god.

Em: –that like everyone knows is like her favorite toy, which like, of course, in all of the reenactments, there’s like a little girl at the end of a hall holding a meat cleaver. Um–

Christine: Yep, that’s her with her favorite toy. [chuckles]

Em: But the– [chuckles] More realistically, I think she’s just like maybe playing kitchen or something because like the knives will just get moved all over the place. The teapots will get moved all over the place, the spoons and the utensils.

Christine: Yeah, it’s just like a ghost in a house like moving stuff around. Yeah.

Em: Yeah. Um, but like the, the, the one chef that was already kind of complaining about her was like, “I’ll leave it right here at my station, and then all of a sudden, it’s like over here, and I know nobody has touched it. Like they know better than to touch it.”

Christine: The meat cleaver of all things.

Em: This is probably gonna be your favorite of all, all of the ghosts is– Her name’s Leona.

Christine: [gasps] Wait, really?

Em: And she’s a little rat terrier.

Christine: A dog named Leona? This is getting crazy.

Em: Kind of better than either human Leona, I would argue. Like now you’ve got the puppy element. Oh my god. You know?

Christine: All right. Well, you know–

Em: I’m just saying.

Christine: –I gotta stand by my girl. I’m not gonna do that–

Em: I’m just saying.

Christine: –on air.

Em: I’m just trying to cau– I’m just trying to cause a fight. Um–

Christine: Sew, sew seeds of discord?

Em: I’m just saying with the rat terrier, I can really– I don’t think Leona would let me do this to her face. [rubs their hands on either side of the camera as if petting a dog’s face] You know what I’m saying?

Christine: I don’t know that a rat terrier would let you do that to its face. I’m just gonna put that out there right now.

Em: I think I have a better chance with the rat terrier. Let’s put it that way.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I think I can go, “Ooh-doo-doo-doo-doo.” [rubs their hands on either side of the camera as if petting a dog’s face]

Christine: My Leona would be much more likely to bite. Um–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –so that’s– that part is true.

Em: Well–

Christine: And I do speak from experience, if you’re wondering.

Em: Has she gone through a biting phase yet?

Christine: She has not actually. Knock on wood.

Em: Okay.

Christine: She bit me one time. I bit my mom one time when I was little, and I remember like–

Em: Everyone does it once.

Christine: –being like, “One day, my mo– my child’s gonna bite my shoulder, and I’m gonna fr–“ and it happened– and then it never happened– Thank god. Knock on wood. But that’s– Yeah.

Em: I think I also bit one time, and then I was like, “I actually didn’t really enjoy that.” [chuckles]

Christine: We– [chuckles] Yeah. And my mom for sure fucking didn’t.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: She had a terrible time, and then, um, she actually bit me back one time. Anyway.

Em: Anyway, this is the third cutest Leona out there, uh, the rat terrier.

Christine: Wow. Thanks a lot. So nice.

Em: I got– I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna back away slowly.

Christine: Nice.

Em: Um, but people hear paws running around, which like if you’re gonna have a ghost in the hotel, make it a dog.

Christine: That’s very sweet.

Em: Please, god.

Christine: It has to be a little clattering dog, for sure.

Em: A little pitter-patter pup, yeah.

Christine: The most soothing sound. Like footsteps? No.

Em: I– Can you imagine having a ghost dog where– ’Cause my dog is– and I know Gio’s one of them too. He’s one of those dogs that when he lies down, it’s almost a guarantee every time you get one of those like “so over it” groans where it’s like [groans and sighs heavily].

Christine: Yeah. It’s like, “Give me a break.” Yeah.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Um, imagine having a ghost that just sounds over it in your room with you–

Christine: Oh, just harrumphing.

Em: And you’re like, “Is that a man or a dog?”

Christine: Yeah. “Is that a rat terrier or what?”

Em: I think all– I mean, if it’s a rat terrier, it probably sounds cuter than when my dog does it. But–

Christine: You're right.

Em: But they hear paws running around. Uh, apparently, you’ll see paw prints on dusty parts of the floor.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: Um–

Christine: Sweet.

Em: –people will hear barking. They’ll feel a dog brushing up against them or like a tag–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –a tail wagging against them. And then other than that, um, objects– This is a quote: “Objects will levitate and slide across tables.” Uh, people also hear faint old-fashioned music playing. They’ll get their clothes tugged on. Apparitions will show up at the top of the stairs looking back at you. Uh, silverware will rearrange itself. Chairs will rearrange themselves. Doors will slam. People have gotten many EVPs here. Servers have, um, ordered at tables– have gotten orders from tables, and when they look back, no one’s actually sitting there–

Christine: [gasps]

Em: –so they got a fake ass order. That’s crazy.

Christine: I love that.

Em: Um, and– I wonder if they’re ordering food that’s like not on the regular menu, and you’re like–

Christine: I was gonna say. We gotta compare those orders. Is it the same order every time? Is it like– Yeah, like crab Waldorf what the fuck? Or is it like– Yeah.

Em: Yeah, like gelatin shrimp mold? Yeah.

Christine: Or is it like Sprite? Yeah.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: I wanna know.

Em: I wonder if one of them is like, “I’ve been hearing this– all the new rage about this Dr. Pepper. I gotta try that.” Or like–

Christine: [laughs] This Dr. Pepper.

Em: And the waitress is like, “I’ll see what we can do.” Um, but anyway, so apparently, they put orders in and then realize no one’s sitting there. There have been other times where they take an order at like a table of three, and then only two people order, and they realize the third person–

Christine: See, that’s so creepy. That’s so–

Em: That’s the fucking worst.

Christine: –creepy. And then they were like, “Where’s your friend?” And it’s like, “What the fuck?” Yeah. No.

Em: Literally horrifying. And imagine if it were us and we just found out someone was sitting at our table–

Christine: Yeah, exactly.

Em: –clear as day.

Christine: Uh, no.

Em: [sighs] That would be a bad day.

Christine: I’d be like, “Who is it? What do they look like?”

Em: [laughs]

Christine: “What kind of crab did they order?”

Em: And they’d be like, “Well, think of a, a boy girl with a range of height and weight and age.” Like– [chuckles]

Christine: [laughs] “Think about– Think of a shadow of a person.”

Em: [laughs] “Take a Peter Pan shadow and just go from there.” Um, the final thing I’m gonna say is that, uh, on Reddit somebody wrote in that had investigated the place a few years ago, and this is a quote from them.

Christine: [gasps]

Em: This is from a user called jennielava. And, uh, they said, “While investigating the area– or the attic area, I was slapped so hard across the back of my head that it pushed me–“

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “–into my friend.” [chuckles]

Christine: What the fuck?

Em: Like, bam!

Christine: That’s not cool.

Em: Fully like bitch slapped. It seems like, like–

Christine: Holy crap.

Em: –”kattow!” Um–

Christine: Who would do that? Which one of these ghosts?

Em: I– That little girl with the cl– meat cleaver, I bet. I don’t know. [laughs]

Christine: Oh my god. She hit you with a meat cleaver, and you just think you got slapped in the head.

Em: It was that cute little puppy. Um–

Christine: [sighs] Maybe.

Em: So then they go on to say, “We heard growling coming from a far back corner where no one wanted to go.”

Christine: Mm.

Em: “On the main dining floor, we looked through some sort of night vision/heat vision goggles, and I saw someone dining at a small table. But when I took the goggles off and looked at the table, nobody was there–”

Christine: [gasps]

Em: “–and I was the only person in the room. And once we got back to the basement, we decided to stand in a circle with our lights off to see if one last thing could happen. So we turned the flashlights back on a few moments later, and a twine bracelet with a washer appeared in the middle of the circle.”

Christine: What?

Em: Just like a random bracelet appeared.

Christine: But like a twine with a washer on it?

Em: Yeah. Like a, like a–

Christine: So like somebody’s handcrafted–

Em: Handmade.

Christine: –in the like dark basement corner of all they could find on the dusty floor.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Like that’s not cool.

Em: Horrible. Yeah, agreed.

Christine: Like, “I made you this.” What the fucking hell?

Em: [sighs] Like a parting gift.

Christine: Eugh. “It’s a charm.” Like no, that’s trash. Put that down. Don’t touch that.

Em: Well, um, the Holly Hotel, if you wanna learn more, they– it is featured on the first season–

Christine: You know I would wear that home.

Em: I know.

Christine: I’m such a du–

Em: [laughs] I know you would.

Christine: I’m, I’m such a dumb bitch. I’m like, “I would wear that right home,” and you’d be like– And I’d be like, “Why are we cursed?” And you’d be like–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –“You took the gift from the small child and put it on your wrist and accepted her–“

Em: It’s like literally on fire. And you’re like, “I don’t get it.”

Christine: 100%. I’d be like, “It was a gift from a small child.” Um, so I just say that to say, take everything I say with a grain of salt, people.

Em: If you wanna learn more, uh, you can watch, uh, about the Holly Hotel on Most Terrifying Places in America in its first season. Um, there was also– You could watch the Drunk History of Carrie A. Nation–

Christine: Mm.

Em: –and– That was season three. And then in 2022, there was a– They call it a Hallmark movie. It’s actually somehow worse. Um, and it was not by Hallmark, but people call it a Hallmark movie ’cause of the, the aesthetic it brings. And it was called Christmas at the Holly Hotel, and I can’t tell if the movie in– was inspired by the Holly Hotel or, or– and/or, um, some of the articles I read said that it was actually filmed at the Holly Hotel. So–

Christine: Oh, cool.

Em: –could be both, could be neither. Um, but the plot– I’ll just read you the, the synopsis.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: “Kathy, a fiercely independent New York City-based food critic who– was asked by her parents to return home for the– to return home to Michigan for the holidays to help manage a massive Christmas dinner at the historic Holly Hotel.”

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: “While inve– while navigating her career aspirations, she reconnects with her family and falls in love with a local police officer named Matthew.” And I’m sure–

Christine: Oh my god.

Em: –Matthew goes, “Please stay. I’ll do anything.”

Christine: “Oh, please. You’re from the big city.”

Em: And For Beach Too Sandy, here are the first five reviews.

Christine: Yes!

Em: “So tedious,” “So boring,” “So bad, but like a train wreck I couldn’t stop watching,” “The worst acting I’ve ever seen in a movie,” “Terrible.”

Christine: [laughs] Oh no.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Oh no. Oh no.

Em: And that’s the Holly Hotel.

Christine: You hate to see that. Well, yeah, we’ve read reviews of Lifetime Movies and Hallmark mo–

Em: You gotta.

Christine: –and boy, oh boy. You gotta.

Em: You gotta.

Christine: They, they get rough, you know. Um, wow. Well done. I just– I love a haunted hotel. You know that about me. I– I’m sad it’s closed. I hope somebody can kinda get it cooking again.

Em: Yeah. If someone’s got a just a cool casual million dollars–

Christine: Yeah. [chuckles] Just laying around.

Em: –and they’re willing to have litigation with this like other bus-business, let me know.

Christine: And wanna like run an entire hotel operation. Yeah.

Em: That may or may not have been the set of a Hallmark– not Hallmark, knockoff Hallmark movie.

Christine: Yeah, with probably 1.5 out of 5 stars on–

Em: [chuckles] That nobody’s seen.

Christine: –on TV, on online.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Wow. Good job. I’m gonna pee.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Then let’s do a Yappy Hour.

Em: We’ll do a quick Yappy Hour because the– we talked so much in the beginning.

Christine: Okay, we’ll do a quick Yappy Hour.

Em: Okay.

Christine: BRB.

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Christine’s Story – Gerard Shaefer aka The Killer Cop aka The Butcher of Blind Creek

Christine: Okay, welcome back. We just went to a deep dive, um, on my reiki stuff. So if you’re interested, you go join the, join in the Yappy Hour. Um, okay, let me find the document because this one, Em–

Em: It’s a doozy?

Christine: –oh boy, it’s a doozy. Um, so this is one of those stories that I had always wanted to cover and never– I– It was always bookmarked, and for some reason, it never happened, and now here we are. It is a story of Gerard Shaefer, um, a serial killer. So–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –for those who’ve been complaining I don’t cover enough serial killers, here you go. Hope you’re happy.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Uh, [chuckles] 1972, of course, the era of serial killers.

Em: The era.

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: Peak, peak era. Yeah.

Christine: Peak era of serial killers. 1972, Susan Place was earning her high school diploma at an adult education center in Florida. She had moved in with her family to a suburb of Fort Lauderdale from her childhood home in Michigan and was struggling to fit in at her new high school. A complication during birth had caused something called hemiplegia, which is like a paralysis that affects one side of your body, and she was diagnosed with epilepsy. And so–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –being in high scho– moving to a new high school is–

Em: Is tough.

Christine: –already tough. And then you’ve got, you know, differences that are more obvious and–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –you know, the epilepsy, and she’s feeling not quite right. She’s not fitting in. Back in Michigan, she did have a good group of friends. She’d been a friendly and fun-loving teenager. She sang. She played piano and guitar. But in this new town in Florida, she was really struggling to make friends. Um, she got, of course, bullying from, from her classmates for her disabilities. Uh, and then not only was school tough, but outside of school, things were not much better. She was fired from her job because she disclosed that she had epilepsy on her job application–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and the grocery store’s insurance company considered her a liability, and so they fired her.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Uh, just to give you an idea of like how tough things were, her sister, Kristen, recalls her calling one day, crying, and just asking, “Why do I have to be an epileptic?”

Em: Oh my god.

Christine: Because it was just she felt like that was making her life so much harder.

Em: That’s so sad.

Christine: And remember, this was pre-ADA, so like pre-Americans with Disabilities Act, which exists to protect folks with disabilities–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –uh, from discrimination. And, you know, back then especially, it was like, “Well, sorry, the insurance company doesn’t want you around, so bye”–

Em: Right.

Christine: –you know.

Em: Right.

Christine: So looking for any sort of solution to the isolation and discrimination that she at least faced at school, um, Susan decided to finish her diploma at the adult education center, and her parents were supportive of that choice. They understood. And it was there, at the adult education center, that she met 16-year-old Georgia Jessup, who sometimes went by the nickname “Crystal.” Now, Georgia’s parents were divorced, but they were co-parenting and remained relatively friendly. But Georgia was like a wanderer. She wanted to travel. She wanted adventure. She ran away a few times, but she always came back because she actually loved her parents. So it wasn’t so much that she was running away from like a life she didn’t like–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –she just loved to adventure.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So the two of them actually had this in common, this wanderlust, especially after, um, Susan had moved to Florida and felt so out of place. They both were like, “We wanna get out of here,” you know–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –and you introduce two teenagers with wanderlust, and, um, here you go. There’s probably gonna–

Em: There you go.

Christine: –gonna be something.

Em: Yeah. Then every like, um, coming of age movie happens.

Christine: Totally. Every plot. Yep. So Georgia, uh, she loved this sort of like lifestyle of running away and being kind of, uh, flighty, but she always came back. She actually even sometimes like called her parents on the way home to be like, “Oh, sorry. I ran away for a few days, but I’m, I’m heading home, didn’t wanna worry you.” [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Like, she’s just off and about. Okay.

Em: Good for her. You know what? So far–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –good for her.

Christine: I know. I know. And so, you know, I think her parents are probably having just heart attack after heart attack, but she’s, she’s exploring. She’s a free bird. Okay. So they had this in common. They even wandered all the way to New York one time. And remember, they’re in Florida. Okay. So–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah. They, they, they wander, and, uh, they called their parents to say, “Don’t worry, we’re on our way home.” And it was also at the same adult education center that the two of them, Georgia and Susan, met a man named Jerry Shepherd. Jerry was 26, so he was far older than the girls, who were teenagers. He told them he was from Colorado, where he said he spent his days out in the wilderness as an experienced outdoorsman.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And he said, you know, “I love to travel. Would you girls ever wanna travel with me?”

Em: [groans]

Christine: Ugh.

Em: And also like why are you ruining our best friend time? Like we’re, we’re off gallivanting. What do you mean?

Christine: Because you’re a f–

Em: We don’t, we don’t need a third. We don’t need a third.

Christine: –fucking– Unfortunately, they were ve-very–

Em: We’re not trying to collab here.

Christine: You know, unfortunately, I wish that were the case–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –but they were very drawn by his allure of having transportation–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –of having money, of having access to travel and adventure, and I think they just couldn’t resist.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Um, he invited the girls to travel with them. And on one occasion, Georgia and Susan tried to run away together to Colorado, but the police caught them hitchhiking and brought them home to their parents. And not long after that, Georgia left home with Jerry in Jerry’s car, and they stopped at Susan’s house to pick her up. Now, Georgia was running away, but Susan was not. She was actually almost 18 at this point, and so she had told her parents that she was planning to travel to Colorado.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So, in some way, she had already told them that this was what she was going to be doing. Um, it wasn’t like a solid plan. Um, her family didn’t know much, but she didn’t wanna just disappear. Like, she told her parents, “I’m gonna be in Colorado for a while at some point.”

Em: Okay.

Christine: So the last time she’d run away and come home, she promised never to run away again because her mother had gotten so upset. So she was very adamant that her mom knew where she was this time. On September 27, 1972, Susan’s mother, Lucille, found Susan cleaning her bedroom. And in the room with her were Georgia, her best friend, and Jerry Shepherd, the 26-year-old creep.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Lucille was like, “Oh boy, Susan’s packing. Are you going to Colorado?”

Em: “Here she goes again.” Yeah.

Christine: “Yep, there she goes.” And she says, “Yes, I am leaving town tonight. That’s the plan.”

Em: Damn, that’s a lot of– That’s no turnaround time for these parents. Just whiplash.

Christine: Not at all. And the mom is really like, “Please don’t do that. Please don’t do this.”

Em: Right.

Christine: You know, I mean, it’s just like very sudden. But her daughter cried and told her mom that she was tired of Fort Lauderdale. She didn’t feel at home there. She wanted time with her friends. Um, and her mom was just very worried, argued with her, but Susan was just not gonna be swayed. She was not gonna budge. And finally, um, you know, she just couldn’t really do much except accept the situation.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Um, she later recalled that Jerry, uh, for his part, seemed extremely smug and calm during the whole situation. And, uh, he actually inserted himself during their–

Em: Of course.

Christine: Of course he did. And he said, “Don’t worry, we’re only planning to go to the beach to play guitar tonight.”

Em: [snorts] Okay.

Christine: What a fucking creepo.

Em: And also sounds like not at all what she’s saying. It sounds like they’re going to Colorado.

Christine: Like liter– Right. Colorado. Exactly. She literally said, “I’m going to Colorado,” and he’s like, “Don’t even worry about it.” Like ugh.

Em: Yeah. I feel like that mom immediately got creepy vibes from that fucking guy–

Christine: Oh, big time. Big time. She knew.

Em: –and was just like, “Don’t even think about it.”

Christine: And by the way, like you’re 100% right, and she is not gonna go away yet ’cause she knew.

Em: Good.

Christine: She knew. Yeah.

Em: By the way, if anyone hears– I– that’s me shifting in the chair. [chuckles] I just heard it through my ear– headphones, and I went, “I’m sure that microphone picked up a sound that was questionable.” Anyway.

Christine: What did it sound like? I missed it.

Em: I think it sounded like a little toot. But it wasn’t.

Christine: Like a little t– Oh, sure. Sure.

Em: No, no. Well–

Christine: [chuckles] I’m kidding.

Em: –now it’s too late.

Christine: I’m kidding. Of course.

Em: I took the risk by even saying anything.

Christine: I’ll be honest. I didn’t hear it, so.

Em: Okay, cool.

Christine: I’ll just have Jack, um, amplify that–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: –in, in post. [laughs]

Em: Oh, here. Here. This is the sound. This is the sound. You ready? [quiet creaking sound] Did you hear that? No? Okay, whatever. I was– I’m trying to–

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: It’s a zipper. Whatever. It doesn’t matter.

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: Whatever, everybody.

Christine: It’s funnier the more you explain it. Um–

Em: I know. I like– I’m like trying to breathe, actually. I’m like–

Christine: I’m like– My stupid couch, it probably sounds like I’m farting all day long on this fucking couch.

Em: [laughs]

Christine: Okay. Uh, I’ve never even thought to say anything. Okay. So of course, this asshole is like completely smug. And you are 100% right that she got bad vibes because the next line in my notes is that she wrote down his fucking license plate–

Em: Good.

Christine: –because she was like, “Something is up with this dude,” but she knew she couldn’t stop her daughter. Like it sucks, right?

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Like her daughter’s about to be 18. Legally, she can leave, and what are you gonna do? I mean, write down the license plate.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And so that’s what she does, um, which like good for her. I’m so glad she did that. Uh, anyway, they left. The three of them left. And Lucille, of course, felt this pit in her stomach. She wrote down Jerry’s license plate, and, um, w-wouldn’t you know, Susan did not come home that night. And four days passed, uh, with no word, not a phone call, nothing. Lucille knew something was wrong because Susan had promised to be in contact if she did go to Colorado and that she would tell her mom where she was and that she was safe.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Uh, not only that, but Susan hadn’t actually packed any clothes or other belongings. Like they were like, “Oh, we’re just gonna go to the beach to play guitar tonight, and then we’ll do the big move.” But she went to the beach to play guitar and then never came home and–

Em: Right.

Christine: –didn’t bring any bags or suitcases or anything like that. Um–

Em: Do we think this guy was, um, trying to immediately like shift the story so that way if, if/when the kids went missing, the mom would go to a beach and it would save time? Or like–

Christine: Oh, oh. Could be.

Em: –like almost like try to tell her a different location to like–

Christine: A different story.

Em: –preemptively divert her to a different place so he had more time to like hide bodies or whatever.

Christine: Could be. Could be.

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: We shall see. We– We shall see.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Um, so Susan had promised to be in contact, but she wasn’t. And not only did she not pack any of her clothes or belongings, she didn’t pack her epilepsy medication. And like–

Em: Right.

Christine: –you don’t go without that. Lucille called some of Susan’s few friends and, uh, connected with Georgia’s mom, who she actually didn’t know. She didn’t know Georgia’s mom at this point. And that’s when they realized that both girls were together and gone and had been not heard from. Um, Lucille learned that Georgia had left a note for her parents, because remember she was running away. Like she was intentionally not telling her parents. And so she ran away on September 27 and left a note. Um, now certain something was wrong, because neither girl had contacted home, Lucille shared the license plate information with Georgia’s mother, and both women reported their daughters missing to the police. They provided the license plate number, but wouldn’t you just know it? The police missed the detail that the number was registered in a different county, and so they were not able to pull up his car–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: –by the license plate–

Em: Damn.

Christine: –and the investigation died.

Em: That’s tough. That’s–

Christine: Doesn’t that–

Em: I really thought sh–

Christine: –make you crazy?

Em: I really thought at the end of like– she was gonna save the day and like obviously–

Christine: It’s–

Em: –she’s done the right thing and–

Christine: So don’t worry–

Em: I mean– Okay.

Christine: –she comes back.

Em: Okay.

Christine: She comes back. Unfortunately, neither Susan nor Georgia would be seen again. Now, I wanna time travel backwards a bit here. Three months earlier, in July of 1972, teenagers Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Sue Wells, who went by her middle name, Sue, were hitchhiking in Florida, and they were both from, uh– very far from their small town homes. 18-year-old Nancy was from Texas. 17-year-old Sue came from Michigan. Um, they had first met while they were both hitchhiking to Chicago and became fast friends. They decided to divert their plans southeast to go be in the sunshine. And after a day at Jensen Beach, they were hitchhiking to their temporary home in Stuart when a deputy sheriff pulled over beside them and informed them that hitchhiking was illegal there.

Em: Mm, okay.

Christine: Now, Nancy and Sue were– neither of them were aware of this supposed law, but he said, “Don’t worry, you’re not in trouble. I’ll drive you home.” They accepted the ride, and on the way, he even offered them to give– he even offered to give them a ride back to the beach in the morning. How nice of him.

Em: Okay. Uh-huh.

Christine: The sheriff’s deputy was none other than 26-year-old Gerard “Jerry” Shaefer.

Em: Mm.

Christine: He seemed very straight-laced, professional. Uh, Nancy and Sue were also very adventurous girls, and they had a sense of curiosity about where they were going. Um, they thought, “Well, okay, we get a ride, but we also befriend a local who is like trustworthy,” right?

Em: He’s a cop, right?

Christine: He’s a police officer. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Em: Yeah, so– and you think you’ve got– you, you would think that’d be helpful.

Christine: Totally. Totally. Especially if you’re not up to anything dangerous. You just want someone–

Em: Right.

Christine: –trusted to– that you can like look t– look to. And of course, he knows that. Um, so hitchhiking was, of course, as we know, much more commonplace in the ‘60s and ‘70s. These two girls were also very well-traveled and confident. Um, they were very like self-reliant, and they relied on each other as well, like a safety in numbers feeling, you know. So I think–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –that kind of put them at a sense of ease.

Em: And also– Yeah, sorry, keep going. Go ahead.

Christine: I was just gonna say, uh, and accepting a ride from a police officer like would have seemed safe to most people at the–

Em: That’s what I was gonna say.

Christine: –any time.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, exactly. Like whether or not you’re a hitchhiker, whether or not you’re– you’re like, “Oh, here come the cops. Oh, at least he’s just gonna give me a ride home, and he’s not– he’s, he’s worried about me sort of like as someone who would protect me, a father figure, like a–“

Em: Like it’s his– Yes, yes.

Christine: It’s his duty. Like his–

Em: His duty.

Christine: He's here to protect you. Yeah. And so there’s just something so sick about that. But yeah, so the idea that two girls get a ride home from an officer who’s like, “Hey, you’re not supposed to hitchhike here. I know it’s common. You’re not in trouble.” Like–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –of course they took a ride. I mean, these girls have hitchhiked all over the country with strangers. Like, this is gonna be the safest option.

Em: Of course.

Christine: [sighs] So, um, felt like a no-brainer. And so, they agreed to meet Gerard the next morning so he could show them around, uh, take them to, you know, the local hotspots. Gerard Shaefer, let me tell you a little bit about this motherfucker. He was born in Wisconsin in 19– What is with Wisconsin though?

Em: Nothing to do. I don’t know.

Christine: I don’t know. I think it’s gotta be something in the, in the water.

Em: Something in the water. [chuckles]

Christine: Yeah, something in the water.

Em: In that, in that Wisconsin water. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, that–

Em: All the cheese curds over there.

Christine: Yeah. All that beer they’re drinking. I don’t know what’s in that. Um–

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Okay. So from Wisconsin. He was born in 1946. Uh, Doris was a stay-at-home– His mom, Doris, was a stay-at-home mother, and his dad, Gerard Sr., was a traveling salesman whose work kind of moved them around the country throughout his childhood. They moved from Wisconsin to Tennessee then to Atlanta. And in the 19– and in 1960, the Shaefers relocated a final time to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and that’s where Gerard would attend high school. Um, he later in life described his childhood as unstable and unhappy. Um, his father had alcoholism, and he said his father was very unaffectionate and detached. Um, uh, he did have one bond with his father, which, as cliche as this is, it was hunting and fishing. Um–

Em: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Christine: –and so that’s kind of where he learned to–

Em: Feels like Wisconsin. Feels like–

Christine: Right?

Em: –men bonding in Wisconsin.

Christine: Uh, yep. And they– You know, that’s where he proved himself, right? And his dad, uh, gave him a compliment at one point that he was even a, a “beautiful shot.”

Em: Oh? Good for him.

Christine: So that’s about as far as the affection went. Um, when Gerard Sr. was away, Gerard, his son, went out on his own, and people appreciated that he had a natural confidence alone in the outdoors, but, um, they didn’t quite know what he was doing out there. A neighbor and friend named Gary, uh, did notice, however, that when Gerard was out enjoying nature, he seemed to enjoy killing animals for no reason.

Em: Mm.

Christine: Uh, one of his favorite pastimes was just killing animals that he wouldn’t eat like songbirds, land crabs– Like he just liked to kill things.

Em: I mean, that’s just like ding-ding-ding, you know?

Christine: I know. And I love that it’s like, “His friend said this,” and I’m like, you’ve got an interesting friendship.

Em: [chuckles] His friend said he loved to casually murder living creatures.

Christine: Right? It’s like, oh, okay, charming. Um, so Gerard Sr. described his son, as I said, as a “beautiful shot,” and that’s about as far as their affection went. Um, Gary thought of Gerard as a collector who was very proud to own and use his guns, and so like already kind of starting off on a very violent–

Em: Yes.

Christine: –in a very like, you know, their only connection is hunting and, and that’s it.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, as a 14-year-old in Florida, Gerard got along with other boys his age. They would fish, drink, date, brag about their supposed like dates or whatever. Um, he played high school sports, and his classmates had mixed opinions about him. So like some people were like, “He’s fine,” and most people were like, “He was a fucking creep. Like–“

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. Okay. So o–

Em: That, that does make me feel better that at least people in his childhood are like–

Christine: Doesn’t it?

Em: –“Can confirm,” because the other guy who’s–

Christine: I agree.

Em: –the other guy who’s like, “Oh, yeah, he just killed a bunch of animals for fun. Ha-ha.” And it’s like–

Christine: Yeah.

Em: –“I didn’t see this coming.” Like– [chuckles]

Christine: I’m like who– Is anybody looking and seeing and saying something? You know, aren’t we supposed to see and say something?

Em: Yes. Exactly. [chuckles] So okay, I’m glad–

Christine: I’m so– Yeah.

Em: I’m glad some people noticed.

Christine: Barbara did. And Barbara later described him as just that, a creep. She said, “He was never the kind of person I wanted to know. I can’t remember–“

Em: Okay, Babs.

Christine: “–him being friend–” [laughs] Babs–

Em: She’s on it.

Christine: –you gotta spill. She’s gotta spill the tea.

Em: She had the per– her perception was on.

Christine: Oh, she’s like, “I’ve got the gift of discernment. Don’t fuck around.”

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: “I’ll get the yearbook out right now, and we can get through it.” Okay.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: “He was never the kind of person I wanted to know. I can’t remember him being friends with any of the guys. He was always on the outside looking in. As a matter of fact, the only thing I really remember is that I always had to tuck my skirt under my legs because he would practically stand on his head to look up a girl’s skirt.”

Em: Jesus Christ. So if he was like that with people–

Christine: Criminy.

Em: –he didn’t even really know, imagine the people he felt comfortable with to like try to like see how far he could push it.

Christine: Ding-dong. Exactly. And Barbara was not– Babs was not alone in this opinion. Um, and I will say he went by “John.” So sometimes the quotes will say John–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –but that was his middle name. And so, um, if it’s quoted as John, that’s why. Uh, he did seem well-liked by other classmates though, probably ones that, you know, just appreciated the, the surface level stuff of what he brought to the table, you know–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and maybe, maybe that’s it. Um, but most people remembered him as pretty unremarkable. Like he didn’t have like super close friendships or anything like that. Um, after high school, he really struggled through college. He took like tons of college credit hours. I mean, it says 28 credit hours. I’m like– I don’t remember what that means, but I’m sure it’s a lot.

Em: I think it’s like– I think every class is three credits. So it’s probably like–

Christine: Oh god.

Em: Or eight credi– Three credits. So it’s probably like eight or nine classes.

Christine: Jesus. Okay. So he’s taking like insane– and then he would drop several, so that he could pass the rest. Like he was just like–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –constantly taking stuff on. He struggled with stress. Well, yeah, wouldn’t you know it. Uh, and at one point, he even wrote a suicide note that actually got him evaluated by a psychiatrist, and I guess evaluated and nothing more, because that’s the end of that. Uh, in 1968, he married another– a fellow student, Martha Fogg, but they divorced pretty quickly after that. And the following year, in September of 1969, Gerard began an internship as a social studies teacher but was forced to withdraw, um, from the program when parents started complaining about him and said–

Em: Jesus.

Christine: –he was being a creep and–

Em: Creepy with the au– with the fucking students.

Christine: Ugh, yuck.

Em: I mean, like I am fascinated by, um– not that I know any, but I am fascinated and would love to ask questions– I never would, but I– in a, in a perfect world, I would love to ask questions on someone who’s been married to someone like that where it’s like– or even ask the serial killer himself. I’m like, “How did you marry someone and not get the urge with them?” Or like, “Did you get the urge with them? And then you took it out on other people?”

Christine: I mean, I think that’s–

Em: “Or like– How does it work?”

Christine: I think that’s– You should watch some of those like, um, Netflix ones where they talk to murderers. Like and–

Em: I should. I really should.

Christine: Because– And they really do explain those things, you know.

Em: What, um– What’s, what’s like one of the main answers? Is it like–

Christine: I mean, I think a lot of times it’s like, oh, it’s either a marriage of like convenience, or “we’re just having sex, so let’s get married,” or– I don’t know.

Em: Sure.

Christine: I don’t think, I don’t think it’s even really that deep a lot of times–

Em: Got it. Okay.

Christine: –or it’s to maintain a facade a lot of times, I think, um, a facade of a ha-happy family, right, or like just– not even a happy family, a normal– any semblance of normalcy, you know. So–

Em: I mean, the poor, the poor, poor spouses of those people where it’s like, “I– He could have hurt me at any fucking moment–“

Christine: Oh, to learn–

Em: “–and I didn’t even know it.” Oh my god.

Christine: I mean, the BTK one is one of the mo-most disturbing, especially when you hear from the children who are like–

Em: Oof.

Christine: –you know, he was doing this to other children. It’s–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It, it–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah, yeah. So there– And BTK has talked about all that too. So yeah, you can definitely find, find the content you seek, Em. Don’t worry.

Em: I, I certainly could. I know. I just have to commit to it.

Christine: And can I tell you something? You said in a perfect world, that means your perfect world already exists.

Em: This is my perfect world. Help me.

Christine: Isn’t that beautiful? [chuckles]

Em: Yuck.

Christine: Okay. Uh, and that’s on manifesting. Okay.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: [chuckles] So, uh, [finding her place in the notes] duh-duh-duh-duh, he got married and divorced, probably because she was like, “Wait, this guy’s a creep.” I don’t know, but I imagine it didn’t help.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And parents had complained. He didn’t cooperate with his supervisors. And then guess what? The following year, he was accepted back into the teaching internship program with new supervisors. It’s like a priest–

Em: Good.

Christine: –when they just move them around, you know.

Em: I mean, truly it’s just like why are– And you have to assume he wants this kind of job on purpose.

Christine: Right, exactly. Like why else are you pushing for this?

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Yuck. Um, so he began this, uh, thing again in 1970, March of 1970, with new supervisors. In May, two months later, booted again for poor performance, for defensiveness to any criticism, um, among many general concerns that he didn’t know anything about the subject he was teaching.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: [chuckles]

Em: So he really was purely there just to be near a bunch of vulnerable girls.

Christine: I guess so. I guess.

Em: Okay. He’s got one– a one track mind, I guess. Yuck.

Christine: I guess so. With no teaching career ahead of him, he took a job as a security guard in 1971 where he met 19-year-old Teresa Dean, who was a secretary and six years, uh, his junior. She fell for him. They got married. Later that year, Gerard lied about his work history in an application to train as a police officer.

Em: I, I am really extra super disturbed– Even more than him being a teacher, I’m more disturbed about him being a police officer because, you know– I mean, I was just thinking back to the story of when he– when they were hiking in a spot where they shouldn’t. Maybe they were totally allowed to, but like they weren’t gonna tell him no.

Christine: Oh, yeah. He just made that up. Yeah. Exactly.

Em: Or what if they said like, “Oh, no. We don’t need a ride. We’ll find our way back.” Then he could have gotten aggressive and been like, “No, you’re not supposed to be here. Get in the car.”

Christine: “I’m arresting you.” Yeah.

Em: Yeah. Or he could have– I mean– [sighs] Yeah. I, I feel like–

Christine: Well, remember who else was a cop?

Em: Who?

Christine: Golden State Killer.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: EARONS.

Em: I, uh– It’s, it’s just– To know that he’s only seeking out jobs where he has authority over somebody is so scary–

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Em: –because then if they say no, he could– then he has plausible whatever to do something with them anyway.

Christine: Oh, and he does.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Don't worry. We’ll get there. [chuckles]

Em: Oh, okay.

Christine: Don’t– Oh, so you know the serial killer handbook, I see. Okay.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, I’ve heard enough about these, I think.

Christine: Security guard, police officer, uh–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –a s– working with vulnerable populations. I mean, you know, fucking writes itself. Um, so she’s 19. She falls for him. They get married. Uh, he lies about his work history in an application to train as a police officer, and they never questioned it, and so he became a patrolman, and he was known to be a stickler for traffic violations.

Em: Mm.

Christine: And he insisted that he was passionate about keeping the road safe. But in reality, Gerard, wouldn’t you know, pulled over women drivers far more often than men, and his department began receiving complaints that he was harassing the women he pulled over.

Em: Oh, good.

Christine: Yeah. Some sources say Gerard asked women out during traffic stops. Others say that he used women’s license plate numbers to look them up and then call them and ask them on dates.

Em: Okay. Yuck. Yuck. Oh my god.

Christine: Insane. Insane, insane, insane, insane.

Em: Like not even like pretending to be discreet about this.

Christine: Ins– Not even a layer of shame.

Em: Just– No awareness of– that–

Christine: Fucking no shame.

Em: Also, like I, I don’t have these bones in my body, but if you’re trying to like lure someone in or like get them to feel like they can trust you, like you have to at least be able to read the room on like how to not be such a fucking weirdo at– like from the beginning, you know?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Oy. [sighs]

Christine: It did– Right. It’s like, it’s like were any of those women– I mean, maybe he thought he was charming them–

Em: [groans]

Christine: –and then he’s like, “Wow, I was so taken by you that like I called you.” And I mean, in some people’s minds maybe that’s romantic, right? Like, “Oh, that cute cop like was so smitten by me.” You know, you can– you never know what someone’s like–

Em: It feels like something like Grandma would tell you about–

Christine: Yes.

Em: –how romantic Grandpa is and it’s like, “Uh, Grandpa sounds a little fucking up, but okay.”

Christine: Yeah. But like you know if– who knows? Like maybe that works on someone. I don’t know.

Em: I don’t know.

Christine: But he got enough complaints sent in that they were like, “Um, yo, you can’t do that.” So anyway, uh, he did it anyway. And he used this position to harass women pretty consistently. He didn’t stop, once again, not listening to supervisors and was fired six months into the job.

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Christine: So he forged a letter of accolade– [chuckles]

Em: Okay.

Christine: –and got a new job as a deputy with the Martin County Sheriff Department.

Em: Cool.

Christine: So cool. At roughly 9:30 in the morning on July 22, Gerard picked up Nancy and Sue in his deputy vehicle, not in uniform though. He told them that some days he was as-assigned to wear plain clothes and only do observations. That’s all. He’s just like patrolling, you know.

Em: Okay. I don’t know.

Christine: He al–

Em: Is that true? I feel like that’s a–

Christine: No, of course not. No.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Of course not.

Em: I was like, that doesn’t feel believable at all.

Christine: “I’m just here to show two y-young teenage girls around town. That’s my job.” No.

Em: “My– I’m gonna observe you.”

Christine: Yeah. Yuck-o. Okay. Um, so he offered to show them this beautiful old Spanish fort on an island. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember–

Em: What?

Christine: –they’re– They’re here to see– So these are the two girls that he said he’s gonna show them the tow– the town.

Em: Right, right.

Christine: And he’s like, “There’s this really cool island, and there’s this beautiful old Spanish fort,” ’cause, you know, it’s Florida, like the history, um, on Hutchinson Island, and they’re like, “Sure, yeah, let’s go to the– let’s go to the– this old fort.” As they stood by the river, Gerard’s relaxed demeanor suddenly shifted. He became very serious, and he asked them if they knew anything about drugs in the area. And Sue and Nancy were like, “Uh, no. Like no, of course not. We’re literally here with a police officer to look at tourist stops.”

Em: Yeah, “You took us here.”

Christine: Like, “What the fuck?”

Em: “Fuck’s wrong with you?”

Christine: Yeah, like, “No, we don’t want– have any drugs.”

Em: “Do you know anything about drugs on this i–“ [chuckles]

Christine: Right, and like why do you wanna know? Like they were like, “What the fuck?” So apropos of nothing, Gerard told them– I’m telling you, Em, there’s no way I can prepare you for this except to say, apropos of nothing, Gerard told them he could dig a hole and bury them in it.

Em: I mean, unfortunately, I smelled that from a mile away. But–

Christine: Right.

Em: –I mean, as soon as you’re asking about, you know, anything, what-whatever their answer is, you now can say like, “Well, I don’t believe you,” or whatever it is. You know, I–

Christine: Well, I’m, I’m so happy to hear that because you’re right. Because he told them there would be no crime without a body. But instead of being afraid, they were irritated, and they said, “It’s too–“

Em: I wish I–

Christine: “–it’s too hot.” [laughs]

Em: I wish I had the fucking audacity of a kid that age. I, I miss just–

Christine: These 1970s bad bitches–

Em: I miss just being annoyed. I just miss being annoyed.

Christine: –they’re like, “I just can’t with this guy,” you know?

Em: I like how you, you just– I cut you off there, but you did say [chuckles] that it’s just too hot and like– You were like–

Christine: They’re just too hot. They’re like, “It’s too hot, and we’re too sweaty for this right now.”

Em: I– And that alone, honestly, if something bad were to happen to me, I’d be like, “Could it happen on a day where it’s not so fucking hot, please?”

Christine: On any other day.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: It’s, it’s fucking Florida, and we’re on an island.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: I am assuming mosquitoes are swarming. This fucking guy–

Em: Yeah, threaten me in the cold or something. Yeah.

Christine: Yeah. This fucking guy who is a police officer, so they’re not like that afraid, but they’re also like, “What is your fucking deal, guy? Like–“

Em: Well, also if he’s– maybe ’cause he wasn’t in uniform, maybe he didn’t have like a, a visible firearm on him–

Christine: Oh, true.

Em: –so he felt less threatening.

Christine: Maybe it’s less threatening, and they’re like, “What the fuck is up with this loser?” Like you know, and–

Em: Maybe they thought they could still take him if it’s just the two of them and like a random man.

Christine: Exactly. And they’ve– I mean, they’ve seen and– Is the mosquito back?

Em: It is.

Christine: They’ve–

Em: He heard me talk about him.

Christine: Oh my god, it’s haunting.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: Uh, but yeah, they– I mean, they had. They were like very trained in the art of keeping themselves safe, right–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and like keeping each other safe. And so they were not afraid. They were irritated and sweaty and hot. And they wanted to go to the beach and were like, “What the fuck?” Okay. So Gerard became agitated, and he said he was placing them both under arrest. [chuckles]

Em: Yep. I mean, immediately.

Christine: What the fuck?

Em: Well, the second you’re asking– The second that you want their– I mean, I– I’m just saying the obvious at this point. Yes.

Christine: But you’re right.

Em: I’m not surprised.

Christine: But you’re right. Like– Jesus Christ, of course. And so he gets out. He handcuffs them, and then he sits back in the cruiser. Then he asks them if they know anything about “white slavery.”

Em: Oh– Okay. It’s escalating quite fast.

Christine: It’s getting out, out of– It’s getting out of hand.

Em: I almost feel like when he first arrested them or handcuffed them, I feel like they were like giggling like, “Oh, this is so funny.” Like–

Christine: They were probably like, “What is it? What is with this guy?”

Em: ’Cause isn’t he like trying to like be friends with them? And it’s like, “Oh, get off me.”

Christine: And– Yeah, And like he’s clearly trying to play the like, “You better listen to your elders. Like, I’m a cop, and you should listen to me.” And they’re like, “Oh, come on.”

Em: Right. I would have thought he was kidding at first and then been like, “Oh my fucking god.” Like what– I would– the immediate panic would have kicked in quickly.

Christine: So they’re a little bit like confused, like you’re saying, like they’re like, “What the fuck is going on? Are we like– Is this a bit? Is this not a bit?”

Em: Right.

Christine: Um, unfortunately, it’s not a bit. And he asks if they know about white slavery, and then he starts discussing methods of forcing the women into human trafficking.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: And they’re still not afraid. They’re just more confused and like fed up, and so they stopped talking to him. [laughs]

Em: I love that they’re like, “Actually, silent treatment time.” [chuckles] Like, “Mm.”

Christine: They literally just stopped responding, and he got so– they grey rocked him, and he got so fucking mad. Okay?

Em: [laughs]

Christine: So they’re grey rocking him. Um, Gerard gets out of the cruiser, and he gets some ropes and sheets out from the trunk. He tears gags from the sheet. He ties them around their mouths. I mean, they’re already not talking to you, but whatever. Okay.

Em: Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

Christine: Like, okay, go off, king. Okay.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So he made Sue sit on the ground, so he could tie her legs together.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Um, he then handcuffed, uh– He, he then made them aware that he was armed, um, after handcuffing them.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So at this point, they don’t know what else to do. Um, Nancy, at this point, realized she could have ru– she could run away, but–

Em: She doesn’t wanna leave her friend.

Christine: –said, “I can’t. I’m not leaving Sue.” Yeah.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: So she stays. Gerard told Sue that if she tried to escape, he would kill Nancy and then find her and kill her too, and she’s like, “I ain’t going nowhere.”

Em: Mm.

Christine: So he leaves Sue tied up on the ground, forces Nancy to follow him to a tree, um, in the river. Uh, the river was a body of water that cut Hutchinson Island from the mainland. And at low tide, there would be these like enormous tree root systems that came up visible above the water. And so Gerard made Nancy climb onto the roots, then tied her legs, and tied a noose around her neck, so that it–

Em: Oh my fucking god.

Christine: I know. So that if she even slipped on the–

Em: [gasps]

Christine: –on, on the slick branches, the slick root system–

Em: So it’s like, “Don’t think about running away.” Even if you accidentally run away– Yeah.

Christine: It'll hang, it’ll hang you.

Em: Oh my god. Oh my god.

Christine: Horrifying. So he looped that over a tree branch, tied it to another branch behind her, and if she slipped off the wet roots, she’d be hanged. So she is trapped in this position. Gerard, Gerard pinched her butt, threatened to rape her, and then left her there.

Em: Oh god.

Christine: Nancy managed, now listen to this, managed to maneuver her way out of the gag first, then twist her head to chew on the knot of the noose.

Em: She’s so powerful.

Christine: It could not come undone in her mouth. But when she dared to lean back slightly, even with like this–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –fucking terrifying situation, she felt the point where the rope was tied to another branch and because she had been chewing on that part, the other part of the rope, it had been loosened. So she, with the handcuff ties, was able to reach that knot and untie it, uh, with her ha–

Em: She’s literally– Are you kidding me?

Christine: Yeah. Like literally MacGyver, right? “MacGalver.”

Em: “MacGalver.”

Christine: I think, I think I’ve tried that joke before and it did not land. Okay.

Em: It lands here. That’s great.

Christine: Thank you. Thank you. She– I, I love all the laughter I heard. Okay. She–

Em: [laughs]

Christine: [laughs] That’s how I know it was a good joke.

Em: I was– No, more clever. I was just like, “That’s good.” Yeah, and like not a guy, a gal.

Christine: It’s like when Blaise goes, “Oh, that–“ It’s like when Blaise goes, “That’s funny,” and I’m like, “Is it?”

Em: I did truly– I was on your side.

Christine: Is it though? Thank you.

Em: [chuckles] I was truly on your side. [chuckles]

Christine: I do appreciate it. I do. I can tell. I do appreciate it.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: So she’s able to like pull her hands out, uh, and unbound her legs, but, of course, she still has handcuffs on, like police handcuffs, so she can’t get her, uh, handcuffs off. So she sneaks away, first to hide the fucking ropes because she’s like, “If Gerard comes back, at least he won’t know where the ropes are and can’t tie me back up.”

Em: Right.

Christine: And I’m like, “This girl’s fucking smart.”

Em: She’s like– She’s on it.

Christine: She’s like, “At least he can’t hang me again.” Which, like, maybe that’s also survival instinct.

Em: Right.

Christine: Like, “Oh, let me put this as far away from me as possible.”

Em: Yeah.

Christine: But either way, like she gets rid of that. She saw his car was still parked there, so she knows he’s like in the fucking vicinity.

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: And–

Em: And probably watching her. That’s the scary part.

Christine: Either watching her or she doesn’t know what he’s doing with Sue, her best friend, either.

Em: Mm.

Christine: So it’s like fucking terrifying. Uh, yeah, he could come back any second. He could be watching her right now. Um, she knew she couldn’t fight him with her hands in handcuffs, so she traveled through the river, and she followed it because she knew it would lead to the highway. At one point, she even h–

Em: She’s fucking incredible.

Christine: I know. And at one point, she heard someone calling her name, and she almost responded but then was like, “Oh, Gerard might be forcing Sue to call for me–”

Em: Oh my god, she’s so fucking smart.

Christine: “to lure, to lure me back, and I need to get to safety before I–“

Em: She’s so fucking smart.

Christine: I mean, what the fuck? Talk about a movie.

Em: I mean, and like in, in some ways, like if I were Sue right now, I’d be like, “Where the fuck are you?” I’d be like, “Get over here.” But at the same time, I’d be like, she’s on her way to get help. She’s ge–

Christine: No. I’d be like–

Em: You have to save yourself before you can save anyone else.

Christine: But if you’re screaming the name, you’re like, “Don’t fucking c– Don’t listen to me. I’m putting a mes–“

Em: I wouldn’t have even thought to do that. I would have been– I would have s–

Christine: [sighs]

Em: I would be like, “Yoo-hoo, I’m right here.” Yeah.

Christine: Oh my god. I know. Ter– I know. Terrible. So she did not respond. Um, she saw cars like eventually. She kept going. The river got really deep. Um, and she had to swim without using her hands and like hope she didn’t get–

Em: Just treading.

Christine: –swept into anything, you know.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Um, but she kicked. She floated sideways, and she really had to relax her body to stay afloat, which was also like obviously in the most stressful time of her life to relax your body.

Em: This is– Right.

Christine: It’s like, what the fuck? Um, so this section of the river was wide, and she could actually see cars ahead, but they were so far away, like they were just like small on the horizon, so there’s no way they could see her. But she finally made it to shore, and she remained in knee-deep water because she was too exhausted to like climb out of the water at this point. And she just started screaming at passing cars. Um, her feet were bloody from all the shells. She’d been stung twice by jellyfish and later told a newspaper, “I got stung by two jellyfish while swimming. That’s not very much fun.” Girl.

Em: Once is enough with my hands untied–

Christine: Once is enough.

Em: –without someone killing my friend.

Christine: In Barbados on an all-expenses paid vacation. Yeah.

Em: [chuckles] Yeah.

Christine: Right. Like– Right, yeah.

Em: On a Sandals vacation package.

Christine: Totally. Totally.

Em: I– That’s– I– [chuckles] I can’t even– I–

Christine: It’s just absurd.

Em: I mean, I guess when you’re in– you have so much adrenaline, you can’t even fucking feel it.

Christine: I know. And I think that’s what happens in these scenarios. It’s like you’re just instincts and your– your something turns on, and you’re like in go mode, survival mode. It’s amazing.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Um, so Sheriff Robert Lewis Crowder, uh, Gerard’s boss, pulls over in front of her, and the reason he’s there is because he’s out looking for Nancy and Sue. Why is he out looking for Nancy and Sue? Because Gerard had called in to the police station and admitted his own crime.

Em: What?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: Was it because– Oh, maybe did he realize that she was missing and was like, “Oh, fuck I better tell all myself.”

Christine: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

Em: [gasps] Wow. So he was like–

Christine: You’re gonna be– You–

Em: –“Well, maybe I’ll, I’ll have a better shot if I own up to it versus getting told on.”

Christine: You’re gonna be mad.

Em: Okay?

Christine: So he calls–

Em: Great.

Christine: –and says, “I’ve done something foolish. You’re going to be mad at me.” He told a story to Crowder that what happened is he wanted to teach them the dangers of hitchhiking.

Em: Oh, shut the fuck up. Are you serious?

Christine: So he was just, he was just like trying to scare them straight, you know? Like he was trying to protect them–

Em: “It was a bit. It was a silly joke, but they took it too seriously.”

Christine: –from the dangers of the world. Like, “These are vulnerable women, and I don’t want them to just be out there.”

Em: Like, but by– Let’s pretend he’s telling the truth. Let’s pretend for a second. He still committed crimes by hanging her in a fucking tree and holding them at gunpoint and threatening rape. Like–

Christine: He said, she said, he said, she said. Runaway teen, police officer.

Em: I’d be like, “Uh, here I’m opening my mouth right now to get a sample of all the rope fibers I had to chew off of myself.”

Christine: Good fucking point. Well, don’t even worry about it because, of course, they find her on the side of the road and like it’s obvious she’s fucking been through it. Okay? Like nobody’s–

Em: Right.

Christine: Nobody’s like, “Oh, he did it– He did something great.” Um, they found them. They found– First of all, a truck driver had found Sue first, and she was handcuffed alone and screaming for help as he drove by. And the truck driver and Sue called the sheriff’s department, requested to speak to the sheriff directly, none of the deputies. And when Crowder found Nancy, he told her Sue was alive. And as he uncuffed her and wrapped her in a blanket, she asked, “What’s going on?” He said, “Guess we had one bad apple in the bunch.”

Em: [sighs] I think everyone just made that sound with me. Um, okay.

Christine: It was a communal, uh, mantra.

Em: I– Like I can’t even get into the spiel about bad apples right now, but okay.

Christine: Please, please. And here’s where it just gets worse. Sheriff Crowder fired Gerard and– Of course he did, ’cause he’s a good guy and he did the right thing. He fired the man, and he requested he receive a psychiatric evaluation, but that never happened, and he just moved right on.

Em: What a fucking asshole.

Christine: Here’s what Crowder later said: “I don’t think anyone recognized the potential seriousness of what he had done.”

Em: Huh? I think everyone but you, babe.

Christine: You fucking–

Em: What the fuck are you talking about?

Christine: –piece of shit. In the end, Gerard accepted a deal and was charged with one count of assault and was sentenced to six months in prison. Now–

Em: This is not the end of the story.

Christine: It’s– No.

Em: Okay. Okay. I was like, you’re kidding. Okay.

Christine: No, it just keeps going. The next spring in April 1973, men collecting aluminum cans in a Florida swamp were horrified to discover human remains in what appeared to be a shallow grave. Now, this site was less than ten miles from the riverside where Gerard had abducted Nancy and Sue the summer before. Um, at least one of these victims had been foun– bound and tied to a tree. So the Florida heat and wildlife had impacted the condition of the remains, but investigators were able to use clothing and dental records to identify the remains as belongi– belonging to 17-year-old Susan Place and 16-year-old Georgia Jessup, the two girls that we started the story off with–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –who met and went to the beach with–

Em: And now they’re going to Colorado but also playing guitar on the beach. Yeah.

Christine: And here they are found the following year–

Em: Okay.

Christine: –uh, their remains. One, like I said, had been tied to the tree. So essentially, we know that’s what he was planning to do was to kill–

Em: Well, yeah.

Christine: –obviously, the other, other two. And when one got away, you know, Sue escaped as well with her life.

Em: I’m honestly surprised– I’m surprised that he even tried to do that with two girls versus one. Like, it just like– Like why wouldn’t he just take–

Christine: I wonder– That mi–

Em: I don’t know. I would think that like if this is your, quote, “first time” doing this like wouldn’t– wouldn’t you want–

Christine: Oh, it wasn’t.

Em: Okay, got it.

Christine: Oh, don’t worry. It wasn’t. Oh, don’t worry. It wasn’t. Remember, he was killing animals at ten or whatever.

Em: Right. You’re right.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: Okay. So yep. One bad apple in the bunch. Um, so now these remains are found. Um, and Susan’s parents, Lucille and Ira Place, had already suspected that this fucking creep, Jerry, who was like in her– their daughter’s bedroom and was like, “It’s fine, Mrs. Whatever. We’re just going to the beach.” Like, she already suspected this fucking guy. Remember she wrote down his license plate. So they had managed to solve the license plate mistake that the police said was a mystery, right?

Em: Mm.

Christine: ’Cause they couldn’t figure out how the fuck to find a license plate in a different county. So they figured it out and were like, “Oh, it’s just from a different county, and Jerry Shepherd is actually a guy named Gerard Shaefer.” And he was apparently serving a sentence for abducting two women. So they’ve already found this all out before the remains were even found. And he had committed that several months before he’d appeared in their daughter’s bedroom and said, “Hey, we’re just gonna be out for a while.” And then they never saw their daughter again. So they already knew like this fucking guy–

Em: [sighs]

Christine: –killed our daughter most likely. And you know, at first the timeline didn’t make sense because it said he was serving his sentence. But what had happened is that he had actually, uh– His beautiful wife, Teresa, who just was in love with this guy for some fucking reason, vouched for him (so there’s another answer for you)–

Em: Oh, Teresa.

Christine: –and said, you know, gave an alibi, right, and made bail for him, and he was released for several months. So that was just not in the record, so they didn’t realize. And on that release is when he killed their daughter.

Em: Okay.

Christine: So as the pieces began to fall into place, investigators filed a warrant to search Gerard’s home. What a great idea. Lieutenant Chuck Hemp of the Oakland Park Police Department later said that the house was fairly large and for a while they didn’t find much of int– of interest until they flipped through one of his pornography magazines–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –and a two-page document fell out of the pages that described kidnapping, torturing, and murdering women. Um, it was just one piece of many writings Gerard had done on the subject of harming women. Uh, he wrote that there would be plenty of opportunities to choose women to abduct from among the many seasonal visitors to Florida. So he just loved like the tourist aspect of being able to take–

Em: I mean, it’s the easiest. It’s like people that are already away and not near their people–

Christine: Out of town.

Em: –and if they go missing, it’s–

Christine: Especially in the ‘70s, you’re not like on Find My–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –you know. I mean– Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, so he wrote about different methods to humiliate, rape, torture, and mutilate women.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: And to answer your other question, he wrote that murdering women in pairs was ideal for him because, according to him, women let their guards down when they traveled together.

Em: Oh. Okay. I don’t know if that’s really true.

Christine: I mean, I think it kind of was.

Em: Is it?

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I mean, I, I guess.

Christine: I think so.

Em: I–

Christine: I mean, I think it depends, but I think like safety in numbers. I mean, if your friend is with you and you’re both like really self-reliant and tough and you’re like–

Em: Sure.

Christine: –“We’ve seen a creep before,” you know?

Em: Right.

Christine: And before you know it, this guy’s like completely disarmed you and been like–

Em: No, you’re right.

Christine: –and suddenly you’re–

Em: [groans]

Christine: Yeah, I think, I think, uh, I think he unfortunately knew, knew what he was doing. Um, yeah. So that’s all the stuff they found in his writings. But of course, he later maintained that this was all fiction, and he– they couldn’t convict him just based on these documents. Um, but in a closet, detectives discovered something they could convict him with. It was an antique trunk filled with trophies. Okay?

Em: Okay.

Christine: Trophies from his victims. Um, there were personal items, such as planners and jewelry. There were teeth with gold fillings.

Em: Man.

Christine: Ugh, god. He was eventually charged with first-degree murder for the killings of Susan Place and Georgia Jessup. He pleaded “not guilty” and was extremely smug throughout the entire trial, thinking he was literally not gonna be found guilty. Um, but also like he had been treated so leniently with everything else he fucking did, it’s not a surp– Like at this point, he probably would just get off, you know? ’Cause it–

Em: Right. I mean, it wouldn’t be hard for him to believe that he’d get off.

Christine: Right, exactly. Like it– in his own pattern of behavior, he’s gotten away with it many, many times.

Em: Have you ever watched those videos online of like the– like in courtrooms when like someone who’s horrible and like is clear– like needs to be put away is acting really smug towards the judge?

Christine: Oh, I can’t stand it.

Em: And then the judge like really lays it out and like–

Christine: Eviscerates them.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles] It’s like, uh, they took a plea dea– took a plea deal, and then the judge is like, “I’m actually rescinding the plea– I’m deciding that there’s no plea deal.”

Christine: “Yeah, nice–“

Em: “You’re going to jail for the rest of your fucking life.” Yeah.

Christine: “Actually, nice try, you piece of shit.” Yeah.

Em: I love those videos–

Christine: Oh, there’s– Oof.

Em: –where like you just see someone smug get fucking humbled.

Christine: I know. Just like get that, get that fucking grin off your face.

Em: Yeah. [chuckles]

Christine: Um, yeah. So they discover this stuff. He says, “Oh, I’m not guilty,” um, super smug. In one surviving footage of an interview, he smiled as he said, “I didn’t do it. I don’t think the state has proved I did it in any way, and the testimony of my witnesses has counteracted the testimony of the other witnesses.” So he really just didn’t think it was gonna happen.

Em: What an asshole.

Christine: What an asshole. He was, thank god, convicted for the murders of Susan and Georgia, but the death penalty shockingly was not legal in Florida at the time. So the prosecution sought a two se– uh, two sentences of life in prison, and they did win this request, but he was stabbed to death in prison by another incarcerated man on December 3rd of 1995. Um–

Em: So how long was he in before he– before that happened?

Christine: Before he died? Um, great question.

Em: ’Cause I’m always so over it every time I watch like the Law and Order episodes– I know that’s not– that’s very different than this, but that’s my only experience with it–

Christine: Right, right.

Em: –is when like someone who deserves to go to jail for the rest of their life like ends up, quote, “getting away with it” by dying like the day of going into jail.

Christine: I know.

Em: And I’m like ugh.

Christine: It always happens. It’s like so anticlimactic. Um–

Em: Or like has a heart attack immediately, and it’s like, “Oh, come on.”

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, but–

Em: I don’t know. Maybe that’s awful of me that I want them to suffer. I don’t know.

Christine: I don’t know. I think someone’s wait– someone’s waiting, someone’s waiting for him.

Em: How long was– Do we know how long he was there?

Christine: Um, I don’t know. I believe probably 15-20 years.

Em: Okay. So it wasn’t like–

Christine: Something around there.

Em: –immediately at least.

Christine: No, I believe, um, I believe he was there for like over a decade. I don’t have the exact date, but it was– He was in there for a while. Um, now, I do wanna add there’s like a last unfortunate like part to this. Um–

Em: Oh, good.

Christine: Yeah, it gets worse. I know. It’s just like, of course, it gets worse. Um, okay. So he is convicted, uh, sentenced to two sentences of life in prison. Gerard is stabbed to death in 1995. He was charged for those two murders, but, and here’s the kind of like add-on to this, he is suspected to have killed between 11 and 28 women.

Em: Wow.

Christine: In 1966– And I’m just gonna mention a few here. Because in 1966, 20-year-old Pamela Ann Nater and 21-year-old – again, two–

Em: Mm-hmm.

Christine: –Nancy Elaine, uh, Leichner were at a picnic with friends in the Alexander Springs Recreation Area of the Ocala National Forest in Altoona, Florida, and they left the picnic spot to walk a nature trail and never came back.

Em: Wow.

Christine: They were not believed to have drowned because they were such good swimmers, um, and they were literally attending the picnic as members of a swimming club.

Em: Like, hello.

Christine: So– Like, hello. Uh, and they had already decided not to swim that day because it was too cold. So they were like, they did not drown. That’s not what happened.

Em: Right.

Christine: In 2007, Lake County Sheriff’s Office Cold Case Review Board announced that Gerard Shaefer had murdered both women. So this was, you know–

Em: Okay. So at least that’s confirmed later.

Christine: –22 years– Yeah, 22 years after his death. But, yeah, they confirmed that he did kill them. Pam– And you know what’s so dark too is that Pamela and Nancy’s at the time boyfriends were once suspected in the case. So, you know, like you think of just the decades of this that–

Em: Oh god, just like– And also the– Yeah, I’m, I’m not discrediting that or even just like the, the grief and torment that the family and friends went through without answers. I mean–

Christine: Absolutely, that, that was the biggest thing, and they all expressed like finally getting closure in 2007, you know.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: Uh, in 1969, 24-year-old Leigh Farrell Hainline Bonadies disappeared. Leigh and Gerard had known each other for years, which is also scary that he knew someone for years before even acting on the murderous like tendencies, right?

Em: Sure.

Christine: Her brother had actually considered Gerard a good friend when they were teenagers. So this was like definitely someone who felt safe with him. Leigh’s remains were discovered at a construction site in 1978, and a bracelet that belonged to Leigh was identified amongst the items in the trunk, in the antique trunk that was in his house.

Em: Wow.

Christine: Ugh. 22-year-old Carmen Marie Hallock disappeared that same year, and a shamrock pin that belonged to her and two of her teeth were discovered in the trunk.

Em: [sighs]

Christine: It’s just so sick. 22-year-old Belinda Hutchens disappeared in ’72. Belinda and Gerard had briefly dated before her disappearance. An address book belonging to Belinda was found in his house. In 2022, remains were identified as belonging to 15-year-old Susan Poole, who had disappeared in 1972, and her skeletal remains were discovered in ’74, but it took nearly half a century for DNA testing–

Em: Mm.

Christine: –to confirm who this was and give Susan her name back. She was discovered tied to a tree, matching Gerard’s pattern. So it made sense that she was one of his victims.

Em: Yeah.

Christine: And Susan’s mother, who was in her 90s, was still alive to receive the closure when they found out.

Em: At least that.

Christine: Several of Gerard’s suspected victims were children even younger than Susan Poole. Um, for example, an eight-year-old girl named Wendy Brown Stevenson and her nine-year-old friend Peggy met each other at Pompano Beach.

Em: Wow.

Christine: They spent the day playing together, becom– becoming best like fast friends. You know when you meet someone as a kid and you’re just like clicked instantly?

Em: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine: Um, yeah. Well, they became fast friends that day at the beach. At 1 p.m., they walked to the parking lot for ice cream.

Em: Okay.

Christine: An employee would later report that a man purchased cigarettes him– for himself and purchased ice cream for the two little girls. Wendy and Peggy were never seen again.

Em: Wow.

Christine: It was suspected that they drowned, but that was ruled out eventually. And early on, Gerard denied that he killed the girls, but he confessed to the murders eventually in a letter that he wrote in 1989.

Em: [sighs] Wow. Okay.

Christine: Peggy and Wendy remain missing. More disappearances and murders of women and girls have been linked to Gerard Shaefer. And it– this is for sure not an exhaustive list. It’s just some like very clear one– connections we have.

Em: Okay.

Christine: Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Sue Wells are the only known survivors that–

Em: Wow. Wow.

Christine: –Gerard Shaefer targeted. Gerard maintained that he abducted the women to teach them a lesson because he was concerned for their safety. And I want everyone to just take that sentence, hold that–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: –and when somebody says something like that to you, really feel into: Is that true? Um, or does this not feel safe? Because–

Em: 100%.

Christine: –you can really disarm someone with that kind of bullshit. Um, “I’m just concerned for your safety.” Yeah, I’ve heard that before. Um–

Em: Yeah.

Christine: F– Jesus Christ. So it is assumed that Gerard, of course, planned to kill both women that day but failed. And you know, we don’t have proof of that, but I have enough proof to decide that for myself, so.

Em: I’ve decided for myself also.

Christine: Correct. Thank you. Despite performing acts of extreme ingenuity, bravery, and physical strength, um, Nancy just said she felt lucky about escaping the whole thing. And I imagine in that state you’re probably dissociated and like just surviving, but, you know, you deserve– she deserves all the props and–

Em: I– I’m just– I’m–

Christine: –support.

Em: Yeah. Very proud–

Christine: Blown away.

Em: Very proud of her.

Christine: Yeah.

Em: I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s huge to survive something like that.

Christine: [sighs] So that’s that. And now I have to go lift weights. [chuckles]

Em: [chuckles] At least you’ve got like you’re all like– you’ve got a reason to be angry and–

Christine: Oof.

Em: –you know?

Christine: I know. She’s gonna be like, “What’s this weird vibe you’ve brought to the table today?” Um–

Em: Like, “Let me tell you.” Yeah.

Christine: Let me tell you.

Em: Oy. Well.

Christine: Well.

Em: At least someone survived. I don’t fucking know. I don’t know how to end that.

Christine: I know. I know.

Em: That’s great. That’s great though.

Christine: Sorry.

Em: Great.

Christine: Sorry.

Em: Good for her.

Christine: Uh, yeah. I’m happy that they survived, and I’m sorry about all the horrible stuff that happened. And, um, thanks for listening to our podcast. Sorry if we bum you out.

Em: [chuckles]

Christine: We love you a lot though.

Em: We do. And, uh, hopefully, uh, everyone’s, everyone’s having a, a good– Whenever this comes out, hope you’re having a good one of those, a good week of a month. And, um, we’ll, we’ll see you next time to horrify you with even worse. Is that a good way to end this?

Christine: I think it’s perfect.

Em: Okay. And–

Christine: That’s–

Em: Why–

Christine: We–

Em: Drink.

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